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00:00:56 <Ngevd> I still think there are a severe deficiency of esoteric markup languages
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00:02:02 <Slereah_> That's because esoteric languages are historically a lot of turing tarpits
00:05:15 <tiffany> I should write an esoteric markup language
00:05:43 <oerjan> based on smileys, no doubt
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03:02:21 * CakeProphet slaps oerjan with a saucepan instead ==\__/
03:08:26 <CakeProphet> involving not correctly putting in the CV axle.
03:11:40 <CakeProphet> (that's the thing that goes from the transmission to the wheels to make them turn in a front-wheel drive car)
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03:19:34 <CakeProphet> what version of internet explorer works best in wine?
03:22:08 <oerjan> the older the better, right?
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03:46:08 <quintopia> I have a present for you oerjan: ======[]
03:48:29 <quintopia> yeah i don't think i've ever seen you use a sledge-o-matic, so i went out and got one just for you
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05:01:14 <zzo38> allValues = h allValues allValues where { f 0 x _ = x; f n x y = liftM2 (:) y $ f (n - 1) x y; g x y = maybe undefined id $ lookup y x; h x y = g . zip x <$> f (length x) [[]] y; };
05:01:55 <zzo38> This appears to work to make a list of all functions between two types, I think.
05:04:06 <oerjan> assuming the types are finite, perhaps
05:04:29 <zzo38> Yes, the types are finite.
05:05:23 <zzo38> It even works for functions between function types, since I defined a Eq instance for those types.
05:05:40 <zzo38> instance (Eq y, AllValues x) => Eq (x -> y)
05:08:23 <oerjan> :t flip const undefined
05:12:43 <lambdabot> sequence (x:xs) = do v <- x; vs <- sequence xs; return (v:vs)
05:12:43 <lambdabot> -- OR: sequence = foldr (liftM2 (:)) (return [])
05:14:54 <Sgeo|web> TIL that unicode strings may be difficult to search through
05:16:49 <quintopia> what, the part about tearing up mr. mccarthy's exquisite corpse?
05:17:09 <oerjan> :t let f 0 x _ = x; f n x y = liftM2 (:) y $ f (n - 1) x y in f
05:17:09 <lambdabot> forall t (m :: * -> *) a1. (Monad m, Num t) => t -> m [a1] -> m a1 -> m [a1]
05:17:42 <oerjan> :t let f n x y = sequence $ replicate n y ++ [x] in f
05:17:43 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m a -> m [a]
05:18:04 <zzo38> Due to the instance I have, it is that, like in mathematics $0^0=1$ and that seem very reasonable to me.
05:19:10 <zzo38> To me it is correct although some people disagree.
05:19:11 <oerjan> :t let f n x y = sequence $ replicate n y ++ [[x]] in f
05:19:11 <lambdabot> forall a. Int -> a -> [a] -> [[a]]
05:19:25 <zzo38> Maybe in specific fields you might not want $0^0=1$ but in general I think it is correct.
05:19:37 <oerjan> :t let f n x y = sequence $ replicate n y ++ [return x] in f
05:19:38 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => Int -> a -> m a -> m [a]
05:21:10 <oerjan> :t let f n x y = foldr (liftM2 (:)) x $ replicate n y in f
05:21:10 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a1. (Monad m) => Int -> m [a1] -> m a1 -> m [a1]
05:21:33 <oerjan> ok now that is right i think
05:21:46 <oerjan> :t let f n x y = foldr (liftM2 (:)) x $ genericReplicate n y in f
05:21:47 <lambdabot> forall i (m :: * -> *) a1. (Integral i, Monad m) => i -> m [a1] -> m a1 -> m [a1]
05:50:45 <zzo38> Can the solar time be an Arabic Part?
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06:28:57 <lambdabot> Foreign unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a
06:28:57 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Internal inlinePerformIO :: IO a -> a
06:28:58 <lambdabot> System.IO.Unsafe unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a
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07:09:53 <fizzie> Or, to make it more dynamic, wipeout_text("Hello", 3, 0) or something. (See: http://p.zem.fi/ka4r )
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08:57:45 <CakeProphet> so in a orthogonally persistent system, it makes more sense to explicitly delete than it does to explicitly save.
08:58:12 <CakeProphet> in a word processor, for example, you never save, but instead delete untitlted / scratch documents when they're no longer wanted.
09:00:28 <CakeProphet> maybe to help people who aren't familiar with that paradigm, it could by default have untitlted documents in an auto-delete mode, so that they disappear without the user thinking about it whenever it's appropriate for them to disappear. Once they're named then they continue as persistent denizens of memory.
09:05:25 <CakeProphet> also, since there's no traditional hierarchical filesystem I suppose each individual program would have a component that manages its (what would usually be called) files and allows them to be "opened" (not really much of an open anymore; requesting better nomenclature) for use.
09:07:27 <CakeProphet> for most programs that would be as simple as maintaining some sort of associative structure with a UI to browse it.
09:08:08 <CakeProphet> the only problem I can see is that programs could easily become possessive about their various documents, which would typically have free access by any other program but now must be explicitly shared.
09:11:15 <CakeProphet> without a system-wide component to make these "files" available to other programs, you basically end up having to reinvent data sharing over and over instead of serialization/persistence.
09:14:24 <fungot> CakeProphet: actually,,,it could operate on compiled code instead of having the nn's weights emulate the convolution signal ( well, not sure whether absent-optional? is almost always going to be
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09:54:33 <Ngevd> I've just worked out why my Pietbot isn't assembling correctly
10:01:40 <Ngevd> It's almost there!
10:02:39 <Ngevd> Really, Piet Assembler
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10:03:18 <Ngevd> CakeProphet is scared of Piet
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10:11:49 <Vorpal> @tell elliott I tried to download the last c-intercal today, but the download link timed out. So I'm currently unable to update the Arch Linux package.
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10:31:35 <oklopol> CakeProphet: programs are so 60's though
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10:32:24 <CakeProphet> from a programmer's perspective programs make perfect sense.
10:32:49 <CakeProphet> in any case how do you logically divide code.
10:33:35 <oklopol> just like i always do when i program
10:34:06 <oklopol> what i don't do is write multiple programs that interface each other clumsily just to have a nice logical division
10:34:15 <oklopol> programs are a retarded idea
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10:53:48 <Ngevd> If I knew what I was doing, Pietbot would be in this channel
10:59:21 <Ngevd> When Pietbot is ran, it outputs:
10:59:56 <Ngevd> USER Pietbot 0 * :Pietbot
10:59:56 <Ngevd> PRIVMSG nickserv :identify [password]
11:00:00 <Ngevd> But when I plug it into netcat, nothing happens
11:01:04 <Ngevd> nc.traditional -e ./bot irc.freenode.net 6667
11:02:49 <Ngevd> exec ./bot failed : Exec format error
11:03:50 <Ngevd> It seems to run fine when not connected
11:04:03 <Ngevd> If I just type in ./bot
11:04:44 <CakeProphet> I don't really know anything about nc.traditional
11:05:01 <CakeProphet> and the Ubuntu package has no documentation.
11:05:18 <Ngevd> It's just nc, compiled so it has the -e option
11:06:01 <CakeProphet> since using -e gives you the exec format error thing.
11:07:11 -!- Pietbot has joined.
11:10:33 <Ngevd> That should make it say "R"
11:11:17 -!- Pietbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:11:26 <Ngevd> I know what the problem is
11:13:24 <Ngevd> Could someone please kick Pietbot?
11:15:58 -!- Pietbot has joined.
11:16:07 <Ngevd> Let's try this again
11:17:48 <Vorpal> * Pietbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) <Ngevd> Could someone please kick Pietbot? <-- sorry?
11:18:24 <Ngevd> Oh god the mistake I made this time is so stupid
11:18:24 <Ngevd> It's doing a line break instead of a hash symbol
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11:19:33 <hagb4rd2> hey! someone familiar with the IRC protocol? im tryin to create an IRC bot, but can't get it elnet
11:20:35 <Vorpal> I'm quite familiar with the protocol, but you have to be more specific than that
11:21:14 <Vorpal> that isn't even an esolang
11:21:42 <Vorpal> anyway where does it fail, you forgot such info
11:21:56 <hagb4rd2> "USER CSharpBot 8 * :I'm a C# irc bot" is a valid USER command
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11:22:04 <Ngevd> Pietbot's almost there
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11:22:24 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, anyway the format of that line looks wrong?
11:22:35 <Vorpal> I don't remember it off the top of my head
11:22:47 <Vorpal> but shouldn't it be like USER something * * :something
11:23:09 <hagb4rd2> according to RFC: USER <ident> <localhost> <remotehost> :<realname>
11:23:27 <Ngevd> Doesn't 8 mean invisible?
11:24:05 <hagb4rd2> i tried to ask the guys in ##csharp but the results were horrible :(
11:24:55 <Vorpal> from an irc bot I wrote in bash ages ago:
11:24:57 <Vorpal> send_raw_flood "USER $config_ident 0 * :${config_gecos}"
11:26:05 <Ngevd> RFC 1459 does it Vorpal's way
11:26:05 <Ngevd> RFC 2812 does it mine
11:26:05 <Ngevd> Pietbot uses the latter
11:26:07 <Ngevd> And can at least connect
11:26:10 <CakeProphet> maybe I should continue with this trend of esolang IRC bots.
11:26:28 <Vorpal> Ngevd, only IRCNet actually uses RFC 2812
11:26:55 <Vorpal> but sure, it might work. It is a bit like html, everyone tries to handle weird stuff
11:26:56 <Ngevd> Pietbot can connect
11:27:01 <Vorpal> even if it makes no sense
11:27:37 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, yes, and none of the RFCs reflect what everyone actually does
11:28:06 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, there are all sorts of non-"official" but widely supported extensions
11:29:20 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, like most of the channel modes. Like the ISUPPORT line (005 iirc), which everyone but IRCNet does. IRCNet uses a different meaning for 005.
11:29:56 <hagb4rd2> yea.. i thought the chanmode might be a problem
11:29:57 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, you want to parse the ISUPPORT line if you are doing a non-trivial bot, it will tell you how to parse stuff like which modes takes parameters. Allowing proper parsing of channel modes
11:30:11 <hagb4rd2> but also the order of the COMMANDS
11:30:47 <hagb4rd2> just to understand the way how it goes
11:30:50 <Vorpal> doing /quote version on this server dumps you the ISUPPORT line as well
11:30:50 <Vorpal> * ircd-seven-1.1.1(20110910-0f177e0ec620, Charybdis 3.4-dev). asimov.freenode.net :eHIKMpSZ6 TS6ow 64M
11:30:51 <Vorpal> * CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=eIbq,k,flj,CFLMPQcgimnpstz CHANLIMIT=#:120 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bqeI:100 MODES=4 NETWORK=freenode KNOCK STATUSMSG=@+ CALLERID=g :are supported by this server
11:30:51 <Vorpal> * CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 CHARSET=ascii NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390 ETRACE CPRIVMSG CNOTICE DEAF=D MONITOR=100 FNC TARGMAX=NAMES:1,LIST:1,KICK:1,WHOIS:1,PRIVMSG:4,NOTICE:4,ACCEPT:,MONITOR: :are supported by this server
11:30:51 <Vorpal> * EXTBAN=$,arx WHOX CLIENTVER=3.0 SAFELIST ELIST=CTU :are supported by this server
11:31:14 <Vorpal> that tells you quite a bit about the widely supported but non-official extensions
11:31:42 <Vorpal> I forgot where you can find docs on parsing that
11:32:04 <hagb4rd2> this will keep me busy for a while ;)
11:32:20 <Vorpal> hagb4rd2, ah this seems useful: http://wiki.inspircd.org/RPL_ISUPPORT_Tokens
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11:32:36 <Vorpal> I probably used that when I wrote envbot, since I was running a network with inspircd back then
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11:34:54 <Vorpal> probably charybdis (and thus freenode-seven) have a slightly different set of ISUPPORT tokens
11:38:08 <Ngevd> Well, Pietbot has stopped working
11:38:25 <Ngevd> I mean "now works even less"
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11:45:28 <Ngevd> As far as I am aware, netcat has stopped working
11:50:51 <Ngevd> fungot, am I here?
11:50:51 <fungot> Ngevd: it's also gpl, not lgpl. :p going really strong though. don't think it is
11:51:08 <Ngevd> That, while good, wasn't what I wanted
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12:06:43 <Vorpal> @tell elliott I updated the AUR package for tup-git, it now builds and works.
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12:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ngevd> As far as I am aware, netcat has stopped working
12:41:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ( 2) change everything behind it to *make* it fast, make the optimizing pass a bit nicer
12:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a similar problem once, in that I couldn't make new connections, but existing ones worked fine.
12:44:14 <Ngevd> Should I restart, or what?
12:45:30 -!- Pietbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:46:18 <Ngevd> Wow, Pietbot was here
12:46:38 -!- Pietbot has joined.
12:46:53 <Ngevd> When Pietbot's df and q commands work, I'll make it respond to pings
12:50:42 -!- Pietbot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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12:52:30 <Ngevd> I keep getting distracted and miss it...
12:52:30 <Ngevd> When Pietbot joins, would someone say ")df iiisso" for me, please?
12:53:26 <Ngevd> Now we wait and see
12:53:46 <HackEgo> 435) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
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13:00:12 <Ngevd> This problem is tricky to solve...
13:00:38 <Ngevd> The mysterious case of the bot in the esolang...
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13:05:26 <Ngevd> Okay, npiet seems to be telling me the colour of every single pixel.
13:05:51 <Ngevd> In a 581.3 KB image
13:10:36 <Vorpal> Ngevd, does the program look artistic?
13:10:51 <Ngevd> That may be the problem
13:11:42 <Ngevd> It looks kind of like a backwards `
13:12:09 <Vorpal> Ngevd, this (upscaled image) http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/Piet-4.gif is how piet programs should look
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13:19:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, <Vorpal> Ngevd, this (upscaled image) http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/Piet-4.gif is how piet programs should look
13:23:01 <Taneb> Vorpal, I wholeheartedly agree
13:23:29 <Taneb> Also, I just saw today's IWC
13:24:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I never actually noticed that all of the plot lines had been resolved.
13:24:47 <Taneb> The channel's topic is now extra appropriate
13:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it's conditioned me never to expect any progression in the story.
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13:28:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh well. My primary source for terrible puns is now gone.
13:29:05 <Vorpal> The parentheses in the topic are unbalanced. Argh
13:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> And elliott never actually got around to reading it. Heh.
13:29:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I assume D&D will continue until it is done. I seen no indication of anything else
13:29:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well now he can read at a slow pace and know he will eventually catch up :P
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13:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he explicitly said that mezzacotta and D&D won't be affected.
13:34:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, I hadn't read the entire annotation when I said that
13:35:11 <Vorpal> and well, it is obvious mezzacotta will continue. Unless there are bugs or limitations (such as not using bignums for dates) I see no reason it couldn't continue forever.
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13:41:44 <Taneb> Well, Irregular Webcomic is now a /very/ Irregular Webcomic
13:41:48 <Taneb> It doesn't have a comic
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13:44:59 <Jenny23> May the force be with you!
13:46:02 <Taneb> I've had less luck, 'm afraid
13:47:59 <hagb4rd2> IRC is such a crap! ..the first reason it didn't work out is you have to wait till the server completes the host ident verification before sending USER blah
13:49:01 <hagb4rd2> the second: on some servers you need to respond to the PING :token with a PONG :token before "registered" (not so on irc.freenode.net)
13:50:42 <hagb4rd2> but the crap is, i didn't found out if there is any char or string signifying that server is ready to go
13:51:33 <hagb4rd2> but for the USER command it seems always to send 4 lines of text
13:53:34 <hagb4rd2> here the working (experimental) code: http://cxg.florianbuetow.de/_e7fab7.htm
13:56:56 <Taneb> Pietbot take 2 so far outputs "NIC"
13:58:15 <hagb4rd2> there must be a way to make comfortable on all severs. i know its ugly, but at least it works that way :>
13:59:10 <hagb4rd2> maybe there really is a special char..now back to those RFCs ;)
14:04:14 <Vorpal> <hagb4rd2> the second: on some servers you need to respond to the PING :token with a PONG :token before "registered" (not so on irc.freenode.net) <-- there is a good reason for that
14:04:28 <Vorpal> the reason is that it prevents using a http proxy to spam irc
14:04:33 <lifthrasiir> Vorpal: avoiding cross-protocol attack, right?
14:05:05 <lifthrasiir> it's so strange that freenode (still) does not implement such measures
14:08:01 <hagb4rd2> i agree. altough it blocks some clients like mibbit.com
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14:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cracked.com/article_19510_the-7-most-questionable-haunted-items-ebay.html
14:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the funniest article to come out of Cracked in a long time.
14:47:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you write "GET / HTTP/1.1" to freenode's ircd, it treats it as a QUIT.
14:47:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it do that for other GET commands? Like GET /foo ...
14:48:17 <fizzie> Probably all GET, and maybe other HTTP methods too.
14:48:27 <fizzie> Didn't test more than the one.
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14:54:13 <fizziet> just "unknown command", and GET did nothing.
14:54:28 <fizziet> maybe it's special-cased to only do a thing at connection initiation time.
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14:55:23 <fizzie> At connection start, HEAD does nothing, GET insta-quits.
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15:06:39 <fizzie> POST /funnyform.cgi HTTP/1.1
15:06:40 <fizzie> ERROR :Closing Link: 127.0.0.1 (Client Exit)
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15:31:16 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 It seems that the http download server for c-intercal (overload.intercal.org.uk) is down (at least over IPv6, trying anything else is somewhat annoying). I don't know who can fix that, but maybe you do?
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15:38:23 <Vorpal> hm I doubt ipv6 is relevant here, since I can connect just fine. I simply get no HTTP headers back from the server.
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16:16:41 <Ngevd> Trivia: the first esolang I created was an Ook! derivative
16:16:51 <Ngevd> It introduced the keyword "Eek"
16:23:45 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:24:14 <Ngevd> I seem to remember a variable that stuck to the pointer
16:24:44 <Ngevd> And there were instructions for more advanced arithmetic than increment and decrement
16:25:11 <Ngevd> fizzie, I found what I was thinking of the other day
16:25:38 <Ngevd> It was npiet-foogol
16:26:23 <Ngevd> Disappointed in that it wasn't an esolang
16:27:30 <Ngevd> It can connect now
16:27:58 <Ngevd> Not entirely sure why
16:28:54 <Ngevd> Thought of something...
16:29:10 <fizzie> Are you "writing" it with an image editor, or the presumably-much-easier-but-cheaty piet-assembler way?
16:29:23 <Ngevd> Switching between the two
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16:35:24 <zzo38> What are you going to use the shreds for?
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16:42:33 <monqy> the only real programmer
16:42:53 <elliott> 07:09:53: <fizzie> Or, to make it more dynamic, wipeout_text("Hello", 3, 0) or something. (See: http://p.zem.fi/ka4r )
16:42:53 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:43:08 <elliott> monqy: it's funny because you haven't seen ais' ms paint ai
16:44:09 <monqy> now i want to see it
16:44:25 <elliott> CakeProphet: so, should I bother reading this stuff about orthogonal persistence you wrote; I suppose what I'm really asking is, did you begin understanding how it works between last time and writing this
16:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, strange that lambdabot didn't tell you that you had messages when you spoke
16:45:29 <elliott> <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:45:33 <Vorpal> I need to clean these glasses
16:46:04 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, BFS doesn't work with systemd according to the arch linux wiki page about systemd.
16:46:13 <elliott> who gives a shit about systemd
16:46:47 <elliott> well, good, now yo don't have to modify ini files
16:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't use bfs though. Why not just list the daemons in /etc/inittab hm... Oh wait it doesn't do deps does it?
16:47:41 <elliott> one runlevel per dependency
16:47:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and isn't there like 6 max?
16:48:16 <elliott> i find it kind of annoying how -git packages can'tbe updated normally
16:48:19 <Vorpal> if it was less limited you could probably pre-compute the run levels by a tool from dependency info
16:48:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I don't know any way around that.
16:48:40 <elliott> I also find it annoying how they have a pkgver, rather than just a pkgrel :)
16:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I messaged ais about the server issue. It connects fine, and my client send the HTTP headers, but the server never replies.
16:49:17 <Vorpal> quite a strange way of breaking
16:49:25 <elliott> it worked for me yesterday :)
16:49:37 <elliott> anyway how did you update tup-git, I thought the maintainer had to stand down or something, or did thy
16:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, he had done that. It was abandoned
16:49:55 <Vorpal> there was this button saying "adopt"
16:50:08 <Vorpal> so I check the PKGBUILD, decided it wasn't too much work, and fixed it
16:50:08 * elliott doesn't think something like the aur should have owners anyway
16:50:17 <CakeProphet> elliott: I understand the basic principle, sure.
16:50:25 <elliott> i'm not sure what to have instead, but it's not like the current model is trustworthy at all
16:50:42 <elliott> it should either look more like ubuntu ppas, with the username used to install and the ability for multiple people to package the same package name
16:50:49 <elliott> or more like a "normal" repo
16:50:56 <elliott> probably the former is preferable
16:51:03 <elliott> since it avoids a lot of trust issues
16:51:04 <CakeProphet> I can't say it matches what you have in mind, as you haven't really explained that completely, and you're probably still figuring it out.
16:51:17 <elliott> CakeProphet: no, what I have in mind is the standard definition
16:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have ipv6? Also check if you can reach the c-intercal download page...
16:51:34 <CakeProphet> elliott: I understand stood well before the end of the last time we talked about it.
16:51:48 <elliott> CakeProphet: well, you were wrong a lot
16:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I was worried it was a failure for ipv6 service only. Except with the way it failed it would have been really strange
16:52:14 <elliott> it might run on that dd/sh httpd
16:52:24 <CakeProphet> elliott: I hadn't fully considered what the adustment entailed in terms of the rest of the system.
16:52:38 <elliott> CakeProphet: ok i'll read it.
16:52:42 <elliott> 08:57:45: <CakeProphet> so in a orthogonally persistent system, it makes more sense to explicitly delete than it does to explicitly save.
16:52:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, dd/sh... Wait, no netcat? How does dd+sh allow sockets?
16:52:56 <elliott> Vorpal: it used netcat i think
16:53:02 <Vorpal> elliott, so dd/sh/netcat
16:53:03 <elliott> 09:00:28: <CakeProphet> maybe to help people who aren't familiar with that paradigm, [...]
16:53:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think /dev/tcp allows listening
16:53:11 <elliott> CakeProphet: not interested in the rest of this line :)
16:53:17 <Vorpal> unless I misremember, or they changed that
16:53:24 <elliott> "auto-delete mode, so that they disappear without the user thinking about it whenever it's appropriate for them to disappear"
16:53:27 <elliott> CakeProphet: this is the worst idea ever
16:53:37 <elliott> "Once they're named then they continue as persistent denizens of memory."
16:53:40 <zzo38> I write a gopher client using bash
16:53:42 <elliott> like, this is the literal opposite of what you want
16:53:55 <elliott> the whole point is that things don't get deleted without asking
16:54:13 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay, how about this: aren't there some bits of "user data" (what would typically be files) that are in fact intended to be temporary, where it would be more natural for them to implicitly delete themselves upon some condition? I suppose this could be handled by garbage collection.
16:54:22 <elliott> i mean, this isn't even about orthogonal persistence, even apple have figured this out, try and get rid of an untitled document in TextEdit without explicitly closing it
16:54:30 <elliott> including by crashing the computer
16:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, what, how can it not be lost if the computer crashes at that point?
16:54:57 <elliott> if you have ever had your computer crash and thought "fuck, I just lost data", then you understand
16:55:21 <elliott> <CakeProphet> elliott: okay, how about this: aren't there some bits of "user data" (what would typically be files) that are in fact intended to be temporary, where it would be more natural for them to implicitly delete themselves upon some condition? I suppose this could be handled by garbage collection.
16:55:22 <CakeProphet> elliott: I suppose the case where I record of information with the intention of not saving is rare. indeed.
16:55:28 <elliott> the computer isn't a mind reader
16:55:29 <Vorpal> Anyway there /is/ temporary data. Most of that is not directly user-visible though.
16:55:32 <elliott> it cannot tell when you no longer care about data
16:55:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess he means stuff like .pid files?
16:56:03 <elliott> he is talking about word processors
16:56:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: in the case of some programs you can tell when I start to care about it. This is how the traditional model works. Before you make the first save, it assumes you don't care. For a word processor in an orthogonally persistent system, this could be the "first commit" (assuming the word processor uses version control, which it totally should)
16:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway are you saying you won't lose an unsaved file in TextEdit should the computer crash before you save it?
16:57:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm quite interested in learning how
16:57:20 <CakeProphet> elliott: yes, I'm going top-down, starting from how the user interacts with the system.
16:57:35 <elliott> Vorpal: unsaved = the user hasn't saved it
16:58:02 <elliott> CakeProphet: yeah, no, the experience of someone working on something for ages without saving then losing it is ubiquitous and shared by everyone except probably Vorpal
16:58:11 <CakeProphet> elliott: and what I mean by "first commit" is more like "first major revision", or tag, or whatever.
16:58:26 <elliott> i would get tons of citations for this and have in the past but don't have them now so you'll just have to accept i'm right :)
16:58:31 <elliott> 09:05:25: <CakeProphet> also, since there's no traditional hierarchical filesystem I suppose each individual program would have a component that manages its (what would usually be called) files and allows them to be "opened" (not really much of an open anymore; requesting better nomenclature) for use.
16:58:31 <elliott> application-centric interfaces are completely obsolete, in an orthogonal environment this is made explicit in the code if you try it
16:58:34 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. But I'm referring to what you said above: "<elliott> i mean, this isn't even about orthogonal persistence, even apple have figured this out, try and get rid of an untitled document in TextEdit without explicitly closing it <elliott> including by crashing the computer"
16:58:44 <elliott> (because you have to emulate a ton of pointlses bullshit)
16:58:54 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, you answer: how can it lose the data?
16:59:30 <Vorpal> elliott, by power loss (assume a desktop, so no battery) or a system bug causing the normal execution to end in an unintended place
16:59:41 <elliott> CakeProphet: you talked about a "program"
16:59:42 <CakeProphet> elliott: the code implements its own filesystem without trying, more or less.
16:59:57 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, why would that cause it to not be able to access the data after a reboot?
16:59:59 <Vorpal> elliott, unless it saves to a temporary place after every keypress (oh my think of the SSDs!) you can't avoid that
17:00:13 <CakeProphet> elliott: yes I still am holding on to this concept because I don't yet how it's sane to not logically divide code into... something. I usually call these things programs.
17:00:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and even then, there will be a tiny delay between a key press and it actually writing it out to disk where it could fail
17:00:33 <elliott> CakeProphet: oh. so you _don't_ actually understand still
17:01:00 <elliott> Vorpal: oh! I see, we're going based on the assumption that you have the necessary reflexes to crash a computer milliseconds after typing something
17:01:19 <Vorpal> elliott, no, but accidents like power losses can happen at any time.
17:01:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: perhaps if you could explain how this works without programs, or point me to an author who has already volunteered his/her precious time on the subject.
17:01:54 <elliott> Vorpal: you can't type anything worthwhile in a hundred milliseconds
17:02:00 <Vorpal> elliott, so while triggering it manually would be hard, it doesn't protect against the unintentional case always. Even if we (sensibly) ignore such things as the disk dying.
17:02:08 <elliott> CakeProphet: get off my back for a minute i'm busy dealing with Vorpal
17:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, right, but does it actually save the file all the time? What are the SSD wear implications of that. You have to write a full block every time
17:02:55 <CakeProphet> SSDs usually handle their own wear pretty well.
17:03:10 <elliott> people need to stop being paranoid about ssds
17:03:17 <Vorpal> yes, but this causes quite a lot of strain on the SSD, not on the level of swap on ssd, but still
17:03:34 <CakeProphet> depends on what kind of SSD we're talking about of course.
17:03:39 <CakeProphet> SDRAM SSD has no problem with any of that.
17:03:57 <Vorpal> CakeProphet, NAND-based SSD?
17:04:35 <Vorpal> battery backed ram (which I think is what you suggested above?) is rather uncommon
17:05:02 <CakeProphet> they handle their own wear, like I said. Though there are more writes in this kind of system, it's not really much more than what a regular system does.
17:05:11 * CakeProphet watches the occasional spikes on his disk usage meter.
17:05:14 <elliott> 09:08:08: <CakeProphet> the only problem I can see is that programs could easily become possessive about their various documents, which would typically have free access by any other program but now must be explicitly shared.
17:05:15 <elliott> 09:08:19: <CakeProphet> good for security, I guess.
17:05:15 <elliott> 09:11:15: <CakeProphet> without a system-wide component to make these "files" available to other programs, you basically end up having to reinvent data sharing over and over instead of serialization/persistence.
17:05:15 <elliott> application model is obsolete, etc. etc., of course it sucks
17:05:35 <elliott> 10:31:35: <oklopol> CakeProphet: programs are so 60's though
17:05:35 <elliott> 10:31:47: <CakeProphet> oklopol: I.... no.
17:05:35 <elliott> 10:31:57: <oklopol> they are a retarded idea
17:05:35 <elliott> 10:32:11: <CakeProphet> I think programs are... a good idea?
17:05:35 <elliott> 10:32:14: <oklopol> from a user's perspective
17:05:36 <elliott> 10:32:20: <oklopol> you would be wrong
17:05:42 <elliott> oklopol is correct as always
17:05:51 <elliott> 10:32:24: <CakeProphet> from a programmer's perspective programs make perfect sense.
17:06:05 <elliott> 10:32:49: <CakeProphet> in any case how do you logically divide code.
17:06:05 <elliott> 10:33:13: <oklopol> err functions and shit?
17:06:05 <elliott> 10:33:35: <oklopol> just like i always do when i program
17:06:05 <elliott> 10:34:06: <oklopol> what i don't do is write multiple programs that interface each other clumsily just to have a nice logical division
17:06:05 <elliott> 10:34:15: <oklopol> programs are a retarded idea
17:06:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: I suppose the main problem I'm having with this system is how do I pass around control flow? continuations?
17:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what model are you suggesting instead of programs? Something like the squeak vm?
17:06:38 <elliott> 11:05:42: <CakeProphet> yeah try piping instead.
17:06:39 <elliott> 11:06:01: <CakeProphet> since using -e gives you the exec format error thing.
17:06:40 <Vorpal> (with a different language of course)
17:06:53 <CakeProphet> elliott: that's totally unrelated to this topic. :P
17:06:54 <elliott> CakeProphet doesn't realise that pipes aren't bidirectional, and Ngevd isn't here but just needs a wrapper shell script
17:07:24 <CakeProphet> you're not allowed to just grill all of my statements, only the relevant ones.
17:07:34 <elliott> CakeProphet: this is called logreading
17:07:53 <Vorpal> elliott, or some completely different model?
17:08:15 <elliott> 11:23:09: <hagb4rd2> according to RFC: USER <ident> <localhost> <remotehost> :<realname>
17:08:25 <elliott> Vorpal: CakeProphet: I'll answer after I finish the more important task
17:08:33 <CakeProphet> elliott: I believe, now that I've basically removed the concept of application, I now see how this might work.
17:08:41 <elliott> 11:26:28: <Vorpal> Ngevd, only IRCNet actually uses RFC 2812
17:08:47 <elliott> Vorpal: everyone supports the newer USEr command though
17:09:01 <Vorpal> elliott, but in full I mean
17:09:09 <CakeProphet> elliott: something involving continuations I imagine. your code bits can communicate via functions, or, well, any other data they want.
17:09:13 <elliott> 11:45:28: <Ngevd> As far as I am aware, netcat has stopped working
17:09:14 <elliott> 11:49:38: <Ngevd> Hang on.
17:09:14 <elliott> 11:49:38: <Ngevd> Is freenode up?
17:09:14 <elliott> 11:50:51: <Ngevd> fungot, am I here?
17:09:14 <fungot> elliott: the only type is the type of brainfuck cells is not specified where this delimiter is! nothing to churn the rest of the java framework in linj because i found the schemewiki.
17:09:44 <zzo38> My IRC client when I design, I try making it closely as possible to the RFC.
17:09:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:10:06 <zzo38> Although a lot of things are by macros anyways
17:10:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: the difficult part is still.. understanding how the entire system coherently fits together. But, then again, I'm not really sure I completely understand how that works in a typical system. :P
17:10:33 <elliott> 13:23:29: <Taneb> Also, I just saw today's IWC
17:10:36 <elliott> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I WAS RIGHT
17:10:51 <zzo38> I think someone on this channel once tested it and found that my client is the only one following the RFC?
17:10:57 -!- Pietbot has joined.
17:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, it will continue, in a different form
17:11:08 <elliott> Vorpal: not as a /webcomic/
17:11:11 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:11:14 <CakeProphet> elliott: so is preemptive multi-tasking even a thing here?
17:11:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is sad. I liked iwc.
17:11:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: god i just told you that i was logreading first
17:11:28 <elliott> Ngevd: CakeProphet is wrong, a pipe won't work
17:11:31 <elliott> you need a wrapper shell script
17:11:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd, you want to read the log. netcat doesn't work like CakeProphet suggested
17:11:48 <elliott> don't bother reading the log
17:11:51 <elliott> Ngevd: put this in a file:
17:12:07 <elliott> and nc.traditional -e ./thatfile irc.freenode.net 6667
17:12:28 <Vorpal> anyway you could make it work with fifos.
17:12:34 <elliott> 13:29:05: <Vorpal> The parentheses in the topic are unbalanced. Argh
17:12:35 <elliott> do you know who mccarthy is
17:12:46 <zzo38> And apparently the fact that my IRC client follows the RFC annoys some people?
17:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, Lisp inventor?
17:12:50 <CakeProphet> the ) is symbolic of the ending of an era etc.
17:12:54 -!- Pietbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:13:22 <Vorpal> nc ... <fifo1 >fifo2, and then pietbotwhatever < fifo2 > fifo1. Something like that should work
17:13:27 <elliott> CakeProphet: Gregor added that stupid thing
17:13:34 <elliott> 14:53:46: <fizziet> let's try a HEAD.
17:13:34 <elliott> 14:54:13: <fizziet> just "unknown command", and GET did nothing.
17:13:34 <elliott> 14:54:28: <fizziet> maybe it's special-cased to only do a thing at connection initiation time.
17:13:41 <elliott> fizzie goes lowercase in nc conditions
17:13:43 <Vorpal> elliott, okay you could do it with bash fd magic I think too
17:14:02 <CakeProphet> when I die I want a close parenthesis on my tombstone.
17:14:09 <Vorpal> elliott, but then you need a wrapper script (for -e)
17:14:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you could use socat I think
17:14:26 <Vorpal> but that is so flexible that it is hard to use
17:14:38 <zzo38> When I die I don't want a tombstone.
17:14:59 <Ngevd> I don't want to die
17:15:05 <zzo38> No! Reuse the body.
17:15:11 <Ngevd> Sometimes I wish I never was born at all
17:15:32 <Vorpal> tie - merge or apply WEB change files
17:15:50 <Vorpal> This is TIE, CWEB Version 2.4. (TeX Live 2009/Debian)
17:15:50 <Vorpal> Copyright (c) 1989,1992 by THD/ITI. All rights reserved.
17:15:50 <Vorpal> Usage: tie -[mc] outfile master changefile(s)
17:15:50 <CakeProphet> tie is totally a Perl thing, the word can be used for NO OTHER PURPOSE.
17:15:51 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a dumb tie, remove it
17:16:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no, it is from TeX
17:16:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: let me know when you logread to the point of our latest conversation, so we can continue our conversation.
17:16:28 <zzo38> It can be useful if you have multiple change file for a WEB program
17:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it would likely break stuff. Which tie do you refer to
17:16:46 <CakeProphet> elliott: actually, once you reach the end of the log, you could probably just continue logreading, quote what I say, and reply
17:16:54 <elliott> Vorpal: tie p === fix (p |) -- with sharing
17:16:55 <CakeProphet> by the time you reply I will probably have more material for you to logread.
17:17:08 <zzo38> The format of change files is the same for WEB and CWEB
17:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: ergo (tie 'nc host port | bot') = (tie 'bot | nc host port') = bot | nc host port | bot | nc host port | bot | ... with sharing
17:17:28 <Ngevd> My way of getting Pietbot to work was nc irc.freenode.net 6667 < botpipe | ./bot > botpipe
17:17:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
17:17:45 <elliott> Ngevd: -e is nicer, also botpipe has to be a fifo there
17:17:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:18:38 <elliott> <CakeProphet> elliott: I suppose the main problem I'm having with this system is how do I pass around control flow? continuations?
17:18:44 <CakeProphet> elliott: I totally have no intention to argue, but okay.
17:18:46 <elliott> what do you mean by "pass around control flow"
17:18:52 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, what model are you suggesting instead of programs? Something like the squeak vm?
17:18:53 <Vorpal> Ngevd, with a wrapper script
17:18:55 -!- Pietbot has joined.
17:18:55 <Ngevd> Tell me when five minutes have happened
17:19:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i suppose it will pretty inevitably become clear as i try and figure out wtf CakeProphet is on about, so...
17:19:08 <Vorpal> Ngevd, 5 minutes? why?
17:19:15 <Ngevd> Doesn't matter now
17:19:23 <Vorpal> elliott, so not that then.
17:19:26 <Ngevd> That was when I would give up on Pietbot
17:20:12 <monqy> it doesn't say stupid things when you say its name does it :(
17:20:25 <fungot> elliott: that's intended. the idea is simple: merge-pathnames is a good idea,
17:20:30 <Ngevd> It should have a deadfish interpreter
17:20:35 <monqy> it's not against fungot!!!
17:20:36 <fungot> monqy: to go off and do their own thing, here. bf is too slow for it to use
17:20:38 <Ngevd> That should make it quit
17:20:46 <Vorpal> Ngevd, well, it isn't working
17:20:52 <fungot> monqy: computer in what manner to combine them.
17:21:02 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay so one chunk of code lets the user edit text files, another chunk probably plays music, another probably loads and displays web pages, etc. There are a lot of unrelated bits of code that are probably not cooperating in any way. How are they scheduled to run with the semblance of simultaneity.
17:21:02 <Ngevd> Vorpal, you've identified the main problem
17:21:24 <elliott> CakeProphet: I see! when you said you'd stripped away the concept of program, you meant: I haven't
17:21:26 <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper
17:21:27 <fungot> Vorpal: http://www.frikateers.com/ bilder/ sr/ 001/ hw1.html here's the assignment, contains the picture is all black.
17:21:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: so there is no such thing as multitasking? that is not a thing anymore?
17:22:09 -!- Pietbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:22:34 <elliott> CakeProphet: so are you just gonna say "so what you mean is Y" for every X that I say
17:22:38 <elliott> where X is totally unrelated to Y
17:22:39 <zzo38> If the entire system is one functional Haskell program or something like that, then you don't need individual program you can just compose the functions you need.
17:22:59 <fizzie> fungot: Do you "depend" on nethack in the sense that you stop working if you can't play every now and then?
17:22:59 <fungot> fizzie: these kids today, with their long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations...) and how it works.
17:23:04 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper
17:23:05 <fungot> elliott: i like the wiki and is at http://ll1.ai.mit.edu/ shriram-talk.pdf the
17:23:06 <HackEgo> 699) <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper
17:23:15 <CakeProphet> elliott: I was under the impression that that's what you were doing, but anyway...
17:23:15 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: these kids today, with their long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations...) and how it works.
17:23:16 <fungot> elliott: what do you expect to know the name, trying to install drscheme 207 i get an ordered list of counts of messages/ day each area gets. it's tolerable, though.
17:23:18 <HackEgo> 700) <fungot> fizzie: these kids today, with their long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations...) and how it works.
17:23:28 <CakeProphet> elliott: regardless of whether you call them programs or not, any modern operating system is going to manage the execution of code that performs these kinds of tasks for the benefit of a user. no?
17:23:50 <elliott> CakeProphet: what you say is technically true, but you're about to make unwarranted assumptions based on it being true
17:23:51 <CakeProphet> but they still exist. or should, anyway. otherwise your wonderful perfect system does absolutely nothing useful.
17:23:55 <monqy> `quote long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations
17:23:58 <HackEgo> 700) <fungot> fizzie: these kids today, with their long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations...) and how it works.
17:24:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:24:14 <elliott> `pastelogs long hair, dope, and silly abbreviations
17:24:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32223
17:24:45 <CakeProphet> elliott: no, I am seeking answers, not trying to make assumptions. when you don't provide answers but instead take what I say and make it sound irrelevant to the system, I learn absolutely nothing and must rely on assumptions. Do you see how this works?
17:25:17 <elliott> i can't give you answers if you keep blankly asserting "X must be done and therefore" for various X
17:25:35 <Ngevd> You can say how the assumptions are wrong
17:26:28 <CakeProphet> elliott: basically I suppose I'm asking: how does multitasking exist without processes.
17:26:49 <elliott> Cake "threads are processes" Prophet
17:27:02 <elliott> Ngevd: not when they're of the not-even-wrong form
17:27:10 <CakeProphet> Cake "threads and processes are programs which don't exist anymore apparently" Prophet.
17:27:43 <monqy> monqy "help whats happening this is stupid" monqy
17:27:46 <elliott> Cake "threads [...] are programs" "I'm not actually putting words into his mouth any more at this point" Prophet
17:28:19 <Ngevd> elliott "I'm being tricky and perverse" hird
17:29:18 <monqy> elliott too tricky and perverse for you?
17:29:45 <Ngevd> elliott, you should go work for GNU. Then you can say "Well, HURD may not be my middle name, but HIRD is my last name"
17:29:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper <-- gah the typo
17:29:49 <fungot> Vorpal: brainfuck program taking too long.
17:30:15 <Ngevd> fungot, don't all brainfuck programs
17:30:15 <fungot> Ngevd: kuribas pasted " sqlite3 fnord" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord)? conceptually, at least afaik
17:30:18 <CakeProphet> the situation is similar to trying to peek around to the other side of a large infinite brick wall that reaches up to the ceiling of an infinite room. I can only walk along its side until I find a door, but I haven't found it yet.
17:30:31 <elliott> <Ngevd> elliott, you should go work for GNU. Then you can say "Well, HURD may not be my middle name, but HIRD is my last name"
17:30:39 <elliott> Ngevd: i don't think gnu is a corporation
17:30:49 <Ngevd> You should make it a corporation
17:30:53 <CakeProphet> those kinds of things are allowed in this metaphor.
17:30:58 <Ngevd> And then go to press conferences
17:32:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, you know how you were putting off reading IWC?
17:32:10 <Ngevd> Or possibly get Canonical to make Ubuntu HURD, and then work for them
17:32:17 <elliott> He's only doing annotations now?
17:33:17 <CakeProphet> elliott: I'm basically just not finding a distinction.
17:33:18 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> You heard? <-- yes, he log read above
17:33:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FSVO missed your chance.
17:33:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, I read new IWC strips, I just haven't bothered binging yet.
17:34:00 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it make any sense that way
17:34:02 <elliott> CakeProphet: forkIO (threadDelay 1000000 >> putMVar foo "abc") -- this is a thread so it must be an application
17:34:16 <elliott> Vorpal: because the plot didn't advance for years? :P
17:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because until around two weeks ago IWC was a gag-a-day strip.
17:34:50 <CakeProphet> elliott: in "there are no programs but instead these sequences of code that do unrelated tasks and execute concurrently" and "there are programs and they exist as sequences of code that do unrelated tasks and execute concurrently"
17:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You forgot the universe-blowing-up plotlines.
17:35:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fair enough.
17:35:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah good point, the plot was going forward when I began reading it. It was around when the fantasy theme first went through that portal thingy between the two villages.
17:35:45 <CakeProphet> elliott: it's not an application, but if you put a "main =" in front of that you have defined a program.
17:36:10 <elliott> CakeProphet: You use program to strictly mean "concurrently-running sequence of code", and then switch to "something like a typical GNOME application"
17:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And the plots all moved forwards without actually getting anywhere.
17:36:14 <Ngevd> I registered my account on the forums in 2007
17:36:19 <Vorpal> anyway I feel that the fantasy theme got a somewhat abrupt ending. Got through that swap way to quick
17:36:27 <elliott> CakeProphet: So because I assert that there are concurrently-running sequences of code, you insist that "oh there have to be text editor applications".
17:36:42 <elliott> "okay so one chunk of code lets the user edit text files, another chunk probably plays music, another probably loads and displays web pages"
17:36:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god don't tell me you're trying to explain @ to CakeProphet.
17:36:47 <elliott> earlier, you talked about a word processor
17:36:53 <CakeProphet> elliott: not at all. Rather, there must be a program that edits text, or as least part of the process of editing text.
17:36:56 <elliott> so yeah, I can't prove you wrong because you're conrtadicting yourself!
17:37:03 <elliott> CakeProphet: woot, you just switched back over to the other definition
17:37:12 <CakeProphet> elliott: I've been using the first definition the entire time.
17:37:20 <CakeProphet> elliott: because it is a meaningless distinction..
17:37:31 <elliott> concurrent running sequence of code == WIMP application
17:37:38 <elliott> this is why <elliott> CakeProphet: forkIO (threadDelay 1000000 >> putMVar foo "abc")
17:37:58 <elliott> look at that UI. look at those menus.
17:38:11 <CakeProphet> I never really mentioned applications. I've been talking about programs. concurrent running sequence of code == program
17:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, OK, look, you know Jade's OS in Homestuck?
17:38:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That has applications, you dolt.
17:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, are you saying @ doesn't have applications or is CakeProphet.
17:39:20 <elliott> The application-centric model has been obsolete for approximately ever.
17:39:26 <CakeProphet> when I don't even completely get what elliott is talking about.
17:39:59 <Ngevd> Stand back, I have an idea.
17:40:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I can several ways it can drop the concept of applications. Which way do you do it? Please don't make the entire OS like a huge mathematica notebook with everything insertable everywhere in it. Actually do it, it would be quite amusing
17:40:13 <Ngevd> elliott, say I'm from the future, and use @, and want to chat on IRC.
17:40:15 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:40:18 <Ngevd> How would I do that?
17:40:34 <monqy> in the future, all problems have been solved
17:40:55 <elliott> Ngevd: In the future we use telepathy but I GUESS I can pretend the future is totally inferior as soon as I respond to Vorpal???
17:40:58 <elliott> monqy: Shut up @ is the best.
17:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I assume some functions will be bundled together into something resembling a conventional application?
17:41:17 <Ngevd> elliott, maybe I'm a history buff
17:41:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nope! I thought you understood @.
17:41:27 <monqy> i know it's the best ;_; this is why it has solved all problems ;_;
17:41:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well there are a few other obvious way to drop the concept of applications, probably quite a few non-obvious as well.
17:41:42 <elliott> Vorpal: That just makes me think of Archy zoom UI stuff.
17:42:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "Archy zoom UI"?
17:42:19 <CakeProphet> I wasn't aware we were discussing anything other than concepts... -_-
17:42:32 <elliott> Vorpal: It's like Canon Cat but newer.
17:42:39 <elliott> I guess that only works if you know what the Canon Cat is.
17:42:42 <Ngevd> Is there any pretty pictures that anyone can see of concept for @?
17:42:45 <Vorpal> elliott, alas I'm not familiar with that either
17:42:55 <elliott> Ngevd: OK give me a minute and I'll answer your question.
17:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there is one thing that always seems to end up like an application to my mind. And that is games. If @ gets big people will want to play 3D RPG/FPS/racing/whatever games on it.
17:44:28 <CakeProphet> perhaps I just have a loose definition of what a program is.
17:46:13 <CakeProphet> in my mind a function is a program. a function can invoke an entire application. in my mind application means "a program that computes things relevant to a particular human-oriented task"
17:46:27 <elliott> Ngevd: @'s UI, as I've previously stated, isn't actually fully decided yet; there are a great many directions it could go in and I need to narrow the field after I've worked out some details about the internals. But note that the original subject of this "discussion" wasn't actually @, so I'll just pick one possible non-application-centric UI: something similar to Emacs. Here's one way it could go: You would press some shortcut key for "open", typ
17:46:27 <elliott> e in irc://irc.freenode.net/esoteric, and it would load up a buffer containing the channel, which would then be interacted with by writing into it (if you've used ERC, similar to that). You could then open other channels in other buffers and manage them with screen-splitting and the like just like with regular Emacs. (This probably isn't what @'s UI will look like, but it's one possible non-application-centric orthogonal-persistence-supporting UI.)
17:47:14 <Vorpal> better than the notebook at least
17:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, what about a full-screen 3D FPS game for @. Would that not qualify as an application in some senses of the word application?
17:49:06 <CakeProphet> I'd like to know elliot's definitions of program and application. they are apparently different from mine.
17:49:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Only with a bad definition of application. Some aspects I could imagine changing, e.g. you would probably create and manage Minecraft worlds outside of Minecraft, and simply open them when relevant, but that's a very minor distinction.
17:49:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: I don't think that's your definition of application, because you react with incredulity whenever I suggest that there is no such thing as a word processor as you know it.
17:50:45 <CakeProphet> I don't believe you ever made that suggestion.
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17:51:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so assuming you wanted WYSIWYG editing of a letter for printing. What would you do on @? Just out of pure interest.
17:53:14 <CakeProphet> elliott: removing old concepts without replacing them doesn't suddenly make everything clear. it just leaves a void to be filled.
17:53:15 <elliott> Vorpal: WYSIWYG is overrated. It'd be possible, but I'm disinclined to work out how, as it probably doesn't fit too strongly into the @ model of things.
17:53:25 <elliott> CakeProphet: Sure it does.
17:53:48 <CakeProphet> it's honestly not that difficult to explain something in terms that someone with a slightly different perspective can understand.
17:53:57 <elliott> CakeProphet: If there was a decades-old operating system principle that every OS had a big picture of a cow in the top-left corner of every system, removing that would be an obvious improvement with no need to be replaced.
17:53:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if we drop the WYSIWYG requirement then? I would need some sort of editor for writing LaTeX code or some other system in
17:54:03 <CakeProphet> without demanding they already understand it in order to proceed, essentially.
17:54:34 <elliott> If there was a principle that every text box is split into subboxes of five words long, and it was impossible for them to interact without manually moving between them, removing that would be an obvious improvement. (Hint: This is a metaphor for the application-centric model.)
17:54:41 <monqy> pictures of cows in the top left would be great
17:54:45 <monqy> the improvement would be adding more cows
17:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Let us suppose one wants to browse the web. How would one go about this?
17:54:49 <elliott> monqy: Yes but CakeProphet is awful and would not agree.
17:55:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you would replace it with something. Be it black pixels or extra area available to display other stuff.
17:55:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm really bored of these sorts of questions since this is the third one I've been asked in the last five minutes. Especially since the web basically contains a bad implementation of several of @'s principles, so it's a fairly ugly mapping. (But a possible one.)
17:55:26 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay we have not really been talking about different things this entire time.
17:55:43 <Vorpal> <elliott> If there was a principle that every text box is split into subboxes of five words long, and it was impossible for them to interact without manually moving between them, removing that would be an obvious improvement. (Hint: This is a metaphor for the application-centric model.) <-- sounds like entering CD-key on Windows 9x
17:55:54 <CakeProphet> elliott: in CakeProphetLand applications can have absolutely no barriers between them and still be applications.
17:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, browsing the web is irrelevant. Use IRC instead.
17:56:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I literally just answered that, so logread or whatever.
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17:56:40 <elliott> CakeProphet: No, they have the restriction of being applications. Applications are boxes that neccessarily restrict functionality into operating within their confines.
17:57:13 <CakeProphet> bah, in any case, I didn't even want to talk about applications
17:57:19 <CakeProphet> I was talking about programs until applications were mentioned.
17:57:22 <evincar> But, isn't that a good thing? Modularity, composability through uniform interfaces, etc.?
17:57:47 <CakeProphet> you can have all of those things without applications.
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17:58:47 <evincar> elliott, I think you're being unnecessarily hand-wavey about @ and the user experience of it.
17:59:26 <CakeProphet> elliott: in a system where applications no longer communicate in streams of encoded character data, but with data structures, I'm not really sure there's a restriction there.
17:59:36 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, what is your definition of an application. To me it is a set of code designed to display (on some output device, such as a screen or a Braille display) some arrangement of pixels (or whatever said display uses, obviously not pixels for a Braille display) that the user can interact with using input devices in a meaningful way to perform some action that has a meaning in the human world.
18:00:00 <evincar> People ask "how do you do X?" and the response is "well, you don't, at least not that way" with nothing substantive afterward.
18:00:29 <Vorpal> ais523, download for c-intercal is down.
18:00:58 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:01:02 <lambdabot> Vorpal said 2h 29m 46s ago: It seems that the http download server for c-intercal (overload.intercal.org.uk) is down (at least over IPv6, trying anything else is somewhat annoying). I don't know who
18:01:21 <ais523> Vorpal: intercal.org.uk is run by Claudio Calvelli
18:01:30 <Vorpal> ais523, right, you presumably know who to contact then?
18:01:35 <Vorpal> I don't know his email or anything
18:01:56 <Vorpal> it has been down all day
18:02:12 <ais523> Vorpal: clc@intercal.org.uk
18:02:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
18:02:44 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:02:49 <Vorpal> ais523, you don't care enough to mail yourself? Anyway elliott confirmed it was unreachable over ipv4 too
18:03:30 <ais523> Vorpal: no, I don't care enough
18:03:34 <ais523> the development source is still around
18:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> evincar: would you please shut up, or haven't you cottoned onto the fact that nobody wants to talk to you?
18:03:40 <ais523> and it even has tags so you could get specific versions
18:03:57 <Vorpal> ais523, not easy for making a package
18:04:27 <evincar> Phantom_Hoover: I don't really mind. As far as I'm concerned, you're just text on a screen.
18:04:27 <CakeProphet> anyway, I don't think it's reasonable to demand complete and detailed answers about an operating system that's in very very early stages of development.
18:04:38 <elliott> evincar: I think you joined about ten minutes ago in the middle of this, know almost nothing about @, and are also intolerable to talk to, so... I guess we both have problems. Also related to the first statement there, you don't actually realise that this was never actually about @ in the first place because you have missed about 90 percent of it, so responding to what you said would basically be a painful trainwreck.
18:04:44 <elliott> So I'll answer Vorpal instead.
18:05:35 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, what is your definition of an application. To me it is a set of code designed to display (on some output device, such as a screen or a Braille display) some arrangement of pixels (or whatever said display uses, obviously not pixels for a Braille display) that the user can interact with using input devices in a meaningful way to perform some action that has a meaning in the human world.
18:05:49 <elliott> Vorpal: "Application" is basically universally used to mean "WIMP-style application", even by those who claim to have a more broad view of it :)
18:06:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Unless you consider wc an application.
18:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I stand by my definition of a program (obviously this needs tweaking for @) which requires direct human interaction for normal function.
18:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a different meaning of application, if you are talking about applying a function to something. It doesn't interface with an user unless you run it from ghci or similar.
18:07:08 <CakeProphet> elliott: I think I see our miscommunication now, and perhaps understand a little better what you mean by a lack of applications.
18:07:21 <elliott> Vorpal: wc :: String -> (Integer, Integer, Integer)
18:07:33 <ais523> elliott: do you consider Emacs an application?
18:07:34 <elliott> Vorpal: wc is exactly as much of an application as id is.
18:07:40 <elliott> Vorpal: (With your definition.)
18:07:41 <Vorpal> elliott, sure, if ghci is the user interface then wc is an application, and so is id
18:07:59 <elliott> ais523: I don't know which definition of application we're using; Vorpal has one far more general than most people's.
18:08:17 <olsner> oh how interesting, are we discussing the definition of the word application?
18:08:18 <ais523> elliott: neither do I, that's why I'm asking questions to try to find out
18:08:40 <zzo38> I think the solar time is really an Arabic Part formula! (but with equatorial coordinates rather than ecliptic)
18:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but if you mean WIMP application, yes indeed, it might not be there. That said, WIMP style application could be appropriate to some situations I guess, I haven't seen any evidence that it can't be.
18:09:04 <elliott> olsner: CakeProphet decided to use two definitions simultaneously (one of which I have no idea what it is) and now everyone else is on a journey to self-discovery to figure out which definition they use.
18:09:10 <Vorpal> but a lot of stuff is shoehorned into that
18:09:34 <CakeProphet> I have used exactly one definition of application.
18:09:37 <elliott> olsner: Relatedly, CakeProphet has been saying things are not true a lot.
18:09:55 <zzo38> It seem to me that it must be, even though I can find nothing about it in anything about sidereal time, solar time, Arabic Parts, or whatever.
18:10:32 <olsner> Relatedly, I think I'll go watch DS9 instead
18:10:50 <elliott> olsner: Spoiler: Bashir's hands are magnetic.
18:11:07 <CakeProphet> olsner: typically involving claims elliott has made involving me. (Is it okay if I speak indirectly through you?)
18:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, it was revealed early in season 2, so it's not a huge spoiler.
18:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway while wc may not end up as a /program/ (running in a separate memory space, if that concept is even relevant in your model), there has to be some sort of separation between, say, a piece of code that has login information loaded and minecraft-for-@
18:12:35 <zzo38> Does oerjan know about Arabic Parts?
18:13:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I still fail to see how something like a game would not end up as an application in the sense that you are using. Or are you saying that just because a game doesn't have a menubar on the top it isn't an application already?
18:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I did find the panel with Jade's OS and it has conventional applications; I retract my objection to elliott's objection.
18:14:07 <Vorpal> besides I know games that have menu bars. Freeciv iirc is an example of that
18:14:07 <zzo38> At what time is oerjan on?
18:14:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so, how do you figure a game is not an application in your sense of the word?
18:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Except I always confuse God Save The Queen with the wedding march.
18:15:05 <elliott> Vorpal: games don't act much like applications anyway, outside of their main menu interface (which is erratic by normal os statements), anyway it's stupid because you're just doing the thing wher you latch on to a specific case and generalise it to the whole thing :)
18:15:17 <elliott> "games are KIND OF SORT OF KIND OF like WIMP applications, therefore @ is impossible"
18:15:21 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: conceptual and time separation, sure, but not actual system separation, I think? as in, they're just code sequences that aren't really barred from communicating between each other in ways that components of an application do.
18:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott demonstrates again his "I hate you die :)" tendency.
18:15:45 <CakeProphet> if I understand correctly, the entire operating system sort of acts as the only real application.
18:15:45 <zzo38> It would depend on the game, I think.
18:16:17 <monqy> @: the wimpiest os
18:16:24 <monqy> yes lambdabot thank you
18:16:53 <CakeProphet> elliott: please stop me whenever you want.
18:18:52 <zzo38> If you have a system that is really a Haskell program that you install various modules, and then compose functions, and the typeclasses can also be used to make one function work with another, and so on.....
18:19:40 <monqy> a beautiful system
18:19:45 <elliott> Vorpal: btw you can remove the !makeflags thing
18:20:08 <elliott> and that sh dependency looks dubious
18:20:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: how many programming languages do you estimate @ will obsolete upon its fierce yet magnanimous inception.
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18:20:25 <elliott> depends what you mean by obsolete
18:20:53 <CakeProphet> make all of their application-centric stuff no longer making of sense.
18:21:51 <CakeProphet> I imagine a Haskell function calling a Perl subroutine and my brain kind of explodes. I guess.
18:22:27 <elliott> @ won't support most programming languages as natively as @lang, if that's what you mean.
18:23:10 <CakeProphet> not what I meant, but it clarifies my question.
18:24:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw you can remove the !makeflags thing
18:24:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> and that sh dependency looks dubious
18:24:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the sh dep was because of -F
18:24:30 <Vorpal> which generates a shell script
18:24:33 <CakeProphet> elliott: also some of the stuff I said earlier: I noticed you didn't really refute anything I said. Is that because I'm correct or because you got tired of me being wrong? :P
18:24:34 <Vorpal> that produces the same output
18:24:37 <ais523> elliott: there's a dependency on some shell
18:24:45 <ais523> also, I think there's a dependency on cat
18:24:45 <elliott> Vorpal: that's not a dependency
18:24:58 <elliott> Vorpal: otherwise a gcc cross compiler would depend on the target cpu :)
18:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I can't update it until the site is up
18:25:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it was a dep not a makedep?
18:25:14 <elliott> ais523: what is the sh dependency for?
18:25:18 <elliott> Vorpal: you're confused about what a makedep is
18:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: this is a /compiler/
18:25:28 <elliott> Vorpal: the dependencies on the output code are irrelevant
18:25:29 <Vorpal> elliott, one that is needed when building ick
18:25:49 <elliott> Vorpal: like, if you packaged an intercal program, c-intercal would be a makedep
18:25:55 <elliott> if it was compiled with -F
18:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I won't touch the thing until the download is up again
18:26:07 <ais523> elliott: sh is needed while compiling the program too, IIRC
18:26:37 <ais523> because it uses a wrapper script during the test run, I think
18:26:41 <Vorpal> anyway sh could be removed because it is implied by base I think
18:26:42 <ais523> perhaps it doesn't, I can't really remember
18:26:45 * elliott is curious about the cat dependency too :P
18:27:21 <CakeProphet> might as well depend on an incredibly trivial piece of code.
18:28:56 <Vorpal> ais523, what did you say the email was again?
18:29:03 <Vorpal> I have time to send one now
18:30:10 <Vorpal> actually, never mind, I'm getting a headache... bbl
18:30:25 <ais523> elliott: because the shellscript calls cat
18:30:37 <elliott> including the wrapper one? :P
18:30:59 <ais523> for all I know it calls diff
18:31:05 <ais523> wait, no it doesn't, that would be stupid
18:31:07 <ais523> it possibly calls grep, though
18:31:19 <olsner> hmm, sisko on a space sailing ship talking about how it's absolutely quiet ... but they're still playing that background hum
18:32:10 <elliott> olsner: The ship doesn't make that hum.
18:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, have I ever mentioned that that was the episode that led to me concluding that the Cardassian Occupation was basically DF in space.
18:32:54 <olsner> hmm, but how can he be making that hum on ds9 when he's out space sailing?
18:33:38 <elliott> olsner: you have no idea how loud the hum truly is.
18:34:11 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: if you have mentioned that, I wouldn't know you were speaking about this episode as I have not yet seen it
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18:34:33 <olsner> plus I ignore everything about dwarf fortress (if that's what DF stands for)
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18:35:30 <CakeProphet> elliott: you should definitely call off @ in favor of a totally more awesome text-based game than df.
18:35:40 <elliott> EC is more awesome than DF.
18:35:51 <CakeProphet> so we can argue about minute conceptual differences for hours.
18:36:00 <CakeProphet> (such as what a text-based game is, apparently)
18:36:15 <monqy> what is a "text-based"
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18:37:43 <elliott> CakeProphet: "help what is english"
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18:38:50 <monqy> CakeProphet: if as in interactive fiction
18:38:54 <monqy> CakeProphet: the only if
18:38:57 <CakeProphet> sorry can't expand arbitrary sequences of characters into non-ambiguous phrases.
18:39:28 <CakeProphet> monqy: no being interactive fiction has nothing to do with also being text-based.
18:40:17 <CakeProphet> I suppose interactive fiction is text-based, but there are plenty of other kinds.
18:40:34 <CakeProphet> essentially where text/characters are used in favor of, well, "graphics"
18:40:59 <monqy> what makes something text/characters instead of "graphics"
18:41:03 <CakeProphet> MUDs, rogue-likes, some interactive fiction, dwarf fortress.
18:41:09 <monqy> I would consider roguelikes, for example, to be graphical
18:41:19 <CakeProphet> monqy: being composed of text and characters instead of other things that are made of pixels but aren't those
18:41:30 <monqy> what a dumb distinction
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18:44:11 <CakeProphet> how else could I distinguish between Dwarf Fortress and Grand Theft Auto or Solitaire in a way that specifically refers to the type of graphics.
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18:47:18 <CakeProphet> in a way that checkers and minesweeper are not.
18:47:41 <CakeProphet> I suppose with a graphics set is becomes half and half.
18:47:44 <monqy> please don't distinguish between games based on graphical representation
18:48:06 <CakeProphet> monqy: it's a pretty valid distinction, dude.
18:48:19 <elliott> C437 contains tons of non-textual gaphics.
18:48:29 <elliott> It's just a fairly minimal graphical tileset that happens to use alphabetics and punctuation for many things.
18:48:44 <CakeProphet> 14:47 < monqy> please don't distinguish between games based on graphical representation
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18:50:01 <CakeProphet> 2D, 3D, graphical, text-based, isometric, top-down, sidescroller, first person, third person. these are all graphical distinctions.
18:50:20 <monqy> games can be essentially the same (hereby refered to as equivalent) yet have multiple graphical representations
18:50:38 <CakeProphet> anyway I think we've argued enough semantics for today. I'm going to go do something else now.
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18:50:58 <monqy> so you'd want to distinguish graphical representations of a game, not distinguish between games based on grahpical representations
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18:52:20 <CakeProphet> even with different graphics sets DF is still pretty textual.
18:52:36 <CakeProphet> with all the information, and heavy use of menus. it's probably half of the game.
18:52:53 <CakeProphet> the style reminds me of other strictly text-based games I've played.
18:52:56 <monqy> then you njeed a better definition of textual
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18:54:10 <monqy> I'd only consider things strictly text-based if they were just that. they use only text. no characters acting as graphics or anything. pretty much just natural language. like textual IF.
18:54:40 <monqy> if using graphics may be considerably text-based too
18:54:48 <monqy> depending on how the graphics are used
18:57:58 <CakeProphet> I still believe a game like DF would highly benefit from a command-line interface similar to a MUD but more featureful.
18:58:36 <ais523> monqy: what about an IF game that occasionally shows an ASCII-art map?
18:58:41 <ais523> I know a couple of those
18:59:17 <monqy> if the map doesn't dominate the game or anything I think it would still be text-based
18:59:35 <ais523> yep, it's a case of you do "x map"
18:59:43 <ais523> and it shows you what the map looks like
18:59:49 <ais523> and everything else is text-based
19:00:09 <zzo38> I do have many text-adventure games in my computer.
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19:04:53 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, systemd gets a few things right, but I disagree with it on several points even beyond it using ini files
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19:12:10 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. I don't buy the argument that double-forking processes are a reason to use cgroups; services should be written to account for these things
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19:12:24 <elliott> and I find the "create sockets and pass them to the daemons" thing ugly
19:12:29 <elliott> because it depends on daemon-specific support for it
19:13:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I do agree that shell scripts are the wrong mechanism -- this actually makes me think that more that configuration management system might be suitable for the job, since you would use the build script language to write services in, and that would be the package language, not shell.
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19:17:02 <Vorpal> elliott, the language in question need relevant constructs to support stuff like "monitor this process I just started and restart it if it dies"
19:17:46 <elliott> That's the service manager's job, not the job of individual services.
19:17:46 <Vorpal> someone needs to do that
19:18:01 <Vorpal> but you have to tell that the process is not supposed to exit
19:18:07 <Vorpal> or if it is, then it needs to know that
19:18:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That's like saying systemd can't work because ini files can't do that.
19:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, if you run mount(1) you don't want to restart it when it exits :P
19:19:04 <elliott> That's just the difference between a daemon and a startup script.
19:19:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no? I'm just saying that you need relevant stuff in there. Something that is just a build script for package management doesn't have the right tools to deal with daemons. Close yes, but not quite
19:19:45 <elliott> I'm talking about the model, of course the implementation needs support for it.
19:19:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway sockets for a daemon could make sense. For example, something like postgresql allows connection to it over unix sockets. IIRC it is slightly more efficient than tcp/ip over loopback.
19:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: But anyway, no, you're still wrong.
19:20:21 <elliott> (assuming "apache" here doesn't daemonise)
19:21:36 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean every package needs to be patched to not daemonise? Seems like quite a lot of work for the package maintainer, especially if it is set up with closing stdio and opening logfiles and so on. And no there is no sensible way apache could log over only stdio. access.log vs. error.log, and that might be per vhost
19:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Come on, this is patently stupid. It was AN EXAMPLE, and most packages support not daemonising too.
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19:22:10 <elliott> (And daemonising =/= just using stdio, shockingly.)
19:23:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway what about daemons that actually consist of a bunch of different processes. Typical IPsec daemons consist of a bunch of different daemons started together. Would you split that up as several scripts (or whatever you decide to call these descriptions of services)
19:24:08 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I guess I was thinking of daemontools. It does logging for the services running under it using their stdio iirc
19:24:15 <Vorpal> which is quite nice when it works
19:31:14 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, anyway what about daemons that actually consist of a bunch of different processes. Typical IPsec daemons consist of a bunch of different daemons started together. Would you split that up as several scripts (or whatever you decide to call these descriptions of services)
19:31:29 <elliott> probably, a service description can be pretty lightweight; but anyway it's not hard to add waitpid :P
19:31:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, oh I guess I was thinking of daemontools. It does logging for the services running under it using their stdio iirc
19:31:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it's nice but can be implemented on top of existing stuff
19:32:30 <Vorpal> I wonder when the hardware clock in PCs will roll over
19:33:45 <elliott> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html good god look at that comparison
19:33:50 <elliott> i'm surprised there aren't a few rows of "is systemd"
19:34:38 <elliott> Vorpal: another cool thing with my system: you could use the package manager ui to control services :)
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19:35:10 <elliott> that could actually be nice, if the manager is designed for it
19:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I'm unable to find info on how many bits a PC hardware clock has
19:35:20 <elliott> no need to prompt for stopping a service, for instance
19:36:04 <elliott> Vorpal: scroll down on that page I linked
19:36:31 <elliott> poettering is so full of shit
19:37:10 <Deewiant> bazaar is simply a PITA for hackers who work on all sides of the OS, because it is not just much less usable than git, but also yet another tool to deal with. Quite frankly, I don't want to care about VCSes, they should just work, and not get in my way. And git is pretty good at that. bzr not, and it requires me to learn even more stuff. But anyway, this story is not about bzr, but it's fun to see how easily people are to tick of with a little
19:37:16 <Deewiant> colour. Before I posted this we actually bet that this would be the first thing people would comment on -- and they did! Consider it candy for the trolls...
19:37:26 <elliott> Deewiant: "bazaar is simply a PITA for hackers who work on all sides of the OS"
19:37:48 <elliott> Vorpal: One thing I don't like about the early-socket thing is that it breaks if the buffer overflows :/
19:37:59 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that is nasty
19:38:03 <Ngevd> A Parent-Italian teacher association?
19:38:11 <elliott> Ngevd: pain in the arse :P
19:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, really, all I want is upstart with deps instead of events
19:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Meh. Writing shell scripts isn't much fun.
19:39:00 <Vorpal> elliott, upstart isn't really shell scripts, it is a custom language
19:39:05 <olsner> ooh, "Specialized professional consulting and engineering services available"
19:39:06 <Deewiant> elliott: I took that as referring to how most things seem to be in git these days
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19:39:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yeah, but there's shell scripts in the body I think
19:39:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, they tend to be less than 10 lines including any comments
19:39:21 <elliott> I've never really looked at upstart because its design is stupid
19:39:27 <Ngevd> I've got a Piet IDE and I don't know what it is
19:39:50 <elliott> Deewiant: Apart from everything Canonical does, such as upstart :P
19:39:55 <elliott> Deewiant: And, uh, Mozilla.
19:39:56 <zzo38> I like text-adventure game
19:40:04 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw, I don't really care about boot time that much. From grub to login prompt (I use startx) takes less than 10 seconds on my desktop anyway. And that was before switching to the SSD for the system
19:40:10 <Ngevd> It's installed on my Windows partition, but is otherwise really good
19:40:22 <Vorpal> elliott, now it takes like 7, because almost all that time is spent waiting for DHCP
19:40:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Start network asynchronously :P
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19:40:47 <Deewiant> elliott: And darcs; why are we talking about this?
19:40:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah well there is where arch model breaks. Deps for starting in background
19:40:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Nobody uses darcs
19:41:02 <elliott> Deewiant: My point is that no way is everything in git these days
19:41:07 <Deewiant> elliott: I didn't say everything
19:41:23 <ais523> elliott: I hope that was an approximate nobody
19:41:23 <Deewiant> elliott: And I'm not defending him, just interpreting what he said :-P
19:41:26 <elliott> Vorpal: What daemon do you actually have that needs to connect to the network at bootup
19:41:42 <elliott> Deewiant: Fair enough... but the VCS is still irrelevant in every way :P
19:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott, hell, button to grub is like half a minute for me. Due to having three of those add-in bioses loading. And quite a lot of disks
19:42:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Boot time doesn't matter much to me but the higher it is, the more likely it is that time is being wasted at boot
19:42:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ipv6 tunnel. ntp. And iptables needs to load after network or the rules won't find the stuff to apply to
19:42:24 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, it's "yet another tool", so not quite in every way, but in practice it should be fairly irrelevant
19:42:27 <elliott> Which means your service manager is bad :)
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19:42:43 <elliott> Deewiant: Yet another tool for all ~0% of people who will check it out :P
19:42:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed. I'm just saying that 10 seconds is a non-issue. Sure, even faster would be nice. But it is pointless optimisation as it is.
19:43:01 <Vorpal> now my laptop has a slower disk and takes quite a bit more to boot. That would be nice to have it boot faster.
19:43:08 <Vorpal> but most of that time is spent reading from the disk
19:43:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's not irrelevant in the server space; minimising downtime and all that
19:43:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed. But why aren't you using a cluster anyway so you can reboot some of the stuff without affecting the whole
19:43:54 <elliott> Anyway, I guess I'm probably going to end up implementing this packaconfigurservice manager after all...
19:45:29 <Vorpal> elliott, hm does daemontool do dependencies? It doesn't does it...
19:46:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I still think that an init supporting lots of runlevels and precomputing /etc/inittab would be the most awesome solution
19:46:54 <Vorpal> at the very least, the most silly
19:47:12 <elliott> That only does upstart-style, not dependencies :)
19:48:01 * elliott wonders if PCSM might be implementable as a Haskell DSL...
19:48:04 <elliott> I assumed no, but I might be wrong.
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19:48:14 <Vorpal> elliott, that said, upstart style makes sense for some stuff. Example: no need to start a daemon for printing until you get an event about that a printer is connected
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19:48:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's another thing Lennart is right about: That's better expressed as an available service, rather than instantaneous events
19:49:00 <elliott> Because it starts, "runs" (the printer stays plugged in), and then stops
19:49:04 <Vorpal> well actually it doesn't work for printer, there are network printers that the user might want to access
19:49:16 <elliott> When printer-is-plugged-in is running, you want printer-daemon to be running
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19:49:51 <Deewiant> How is printer-is-plugged-in different from printer-daemon itself
19:50:19 <elliott> Deewiant: The former comes from whatever manages devices
19:50:23 <elliott> The latter is some kind of multiplexer on top of it
19:50:38 <elliott> Deewiant: Consider printer-is-plugged-in vs. gnome-printer-magic and kprinterwoot
19:50:38 <Vorpal> you could have multiple instances of printer-is-plugged-in I guess
19:50:47 <elliott> Both of the latter probably should be started
19:50:50 <elliott> Assuming you use both gnome and kde programs
19:51:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I was considering cups here
19:51:06 <Vorpal> as the daemon to be started
19:51:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, the latter two probably depend on cups :)
19:51:25 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'm an xfce user, don't we get anything? :(
19:51:39 <elliott> I think there's exo-print or whatever but I don't have it installed here
19:51:45 <elliott> I just use the core xfce4 stuff
19:52:05 <elliott> Which comes down to the setting manager, the panel, the WM, exo-open, Thunar, and a terminal :P
19:52:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hm printing from firefox works without any magic but cups installed as far as I remember.
19:52:27 <Vorpal> unless firefox starts that itself
19:53:05 <Vorpal> elliott, why would you need root to print using cups?
19:53:15 <Vorpal> what sort of crazy setup do you have
19:53:18 <elliott> I thought you had to be root to run the daemon
19:53:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to be root to start cups yes.
19:53:38 <Vorpal> but not to talk to cups
19:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Did I mention that PCSM does user-local installed packages trivially, while still sharing the disk storage for identical packages installed by multiple users??? SO GOOD
19:54:12 <elliott> Packaconfigurservicemanager!
19:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway nixos does that
19:54:21 <Vorpal> and so does tiny core iirc
19:54:37 <elliott> Can NixOS run daemons in the right overlay FS so they only see their dependencies and config file???
19:54:45 <elliott> (As well as whatever else they're specified to need)
19:54:56 <elliott> Vorpal: No it can't, 'cuz NixOS just uses upstart :P
19:54:59 <Vorpal> and that weird distro I forgot the name of. That does one directory per package
19:55:11 <elliott> I don't know that Gobo can do per-user packages.
19:55:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it could? oh well
19:55:27 <Vorpal> so don't trust me on that
19:55:51 <elliott> I think this actually generalises to per-user services... e.g. your "login" service would depend on xfce4-sesion
19:55:53 <Vorpal> elliott, but nixos could potentially do it. Do per user stuff and have one user per daemon
19:56:04 <elliott> And your .xinitrc would just start that
19:56:13 <Vorpal> I admit this runs into a bit of a problem with "how the hell do we deal with this thing needing root"
19:56:32 <elliott> Daemons probably shouldn't ever run as root anyway :P
19:56:41 <elliott> Apart from init... or pcsmd :P
19:56:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, cron need to be able to execute jobs as root
19:56:54 <elliott> Although even with init it can run almost always at lower privileges.
19:57:03 <Vorpal> if that is what you wrote in the system crontab
19:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and a few more need it in practise. Like ntp. Maybe it could be converted to use those fancy new linux capabilities thingies. Not sure.
19:57:50 <Vorpal> and anyway, I don't know how the per-user stuff under nixos works.
19:57:57 <Vorpal> so it might be tricky doing it for daemons
19:58:09 <Vorpal> if it is done with PATH magic in the profile for example
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19:58:42 <elliott> Sigh @ people with broken clients flooding the channel.
19:58:48 <elliott> "systemd has a minimal transaction system. Meaning: if a unit is requested to start up or shut down we will add it and all its dependencies to a temporary transaction. Then, we will verify if the transaction is consistent (i.e. whether the ordering via After/Before of all units is cycle-free). If it is not, systemd will try to fix it up, and removes non-essential jobs from the transaction that might remove the loop. Also, systemd tries to suppress
19:58:48 <elliott> non-essential jobs in the transaction that would stop a running service. Non-essential jobs are those which the original request did not directly include but which where pulled in by Wants type of dependencies. Finally we check whether the jobs of the transaction contradict jobs that have already been queued, and optionally the transaction is aborted then. If all worked out and the transaction is consistent and minimized in its impact it is merge
19:58:48 <elliott> d with all already outstanding jobs and added to the run queue. Effectively this means that before executing a requested operation, we will verify that it makes sense, fixing it if possible, and only failing if it really cannot work."
19:58:55 <elliott> Wow, Poettering must have some really broken systems.
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19:59:45 <Vorpal> elliott, he started out writing a db engine, then didn't want to throw away the code
20:00:24 <oerjan> sunken costs sank the code
20:00:52 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway init, cron, ssh and kdm/gdm/whatever are examples that need to be able to switch to any other user. Which in practise means they need to be root.
20:01:10 <elliott> Heyyy, pcsm makes a pretty nicely-typeable executable name; maybe I should actually call it that.
20:01:19 <oerjan> <elliott> Sigh @ people with broken clients flooding the channel.
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20:01:37 <oerjan> how could @ people have broken clients? that's platonically impossible!
20:02:25 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you know if solar time can be an Arabic Part formula (in equatorial coordinates)? It seem to me it is the same kind of things.
20:02:36 <zzo38> Do you even know about solar time or about Arabic Parts?
20:03:07 <Vorpal> root 2104 0.0 0.0 37224 864 ? Ss Oct23 0:01 /usr/lib/postfix/master
20:03:21 <Vorpal> I guess it needs root to deliver to mailboxes?
20:03:31 <Vorpal> udevd of course needs root
20:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: postfix is like ten million daemons though
20:03:53 <oerjan> zzo38: i have no idea what an Arabic Part formula is.
20:03:59 <elliott> of which only one runs as root, I presume
20:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, master seems to be its own supervisor
20:04:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway if you plan on making your own linux distro, good luck getting away without udev. I think it will be quite a pain if you want stuff like gnome, kde or xfce to work. Especially with automounting usb sticks and such
20:05:05 <Vorpal> root 1859 0.0 0.0 28360 1340 ? S Oct23 0:01 /sbin/wpa_supplicant -u -s <-- why on earth is this root
20:05:18 <olsner> linux automounts usb sticks?
20:05:30 <Vorpal> olsner, yes, distros like ubuntu do anyway
20:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Nahhhh, udev only took over recently.
20:05:40 <Vorpal> my desktop doesn't. It runs arch. Never bothered setting that up
20:05:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway I can have udev without udevd; BusyBox has an implementation.
20:05:57 <olsner> I guess my ubuntu is broken in some way then, haven't seen it do that
20:06:04 <elliott> Vorpal: (With its own config file)
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20:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I see. Well good luck with that.
20:06:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll probably just use udev
20:06:33 <Vorpal> root 25249 0.0 0.0 5088 1584 ? Ss Oct27 0:00 acpid -c /etc/acpi/events -s /var/run/acpid.socket <-- well I guess that might need root
20:06:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think mail clients like postfix usually change user to the recipient and drop all privileges as soon as possible?
20:06:41 <elliott> Vorpal: pcsm can manage it *shrug*
20:07:02 <Vorpal> elliott, except it is usually started from the initramfs or some stuff like that iirc
20:07:12 <Vorpal> why does my dhcp client run as root?
20:07:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, pcsm can manage the actual device stuff
20:07:31 <oerjan> isn't that why the global mail directory (if there is one) is supposed to be sticky
20:07:41 <Vorpal> hm I think I see a pattern here. There are quite a few things running as root because they need to do stuff like raw sockets or similar
20:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: That's one advantage of early-socket stuff
20:08:10 <elliott> Assuming you can do everything on a raw socket opened by someone else that passes it to you
20:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, eh? How does early-socket help dhcp client?
20:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It helps raw sockets
20:08:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Haven't you used Astrolog though? An Arabic Part formula is the angles of three objects, two of them added together and one subtracted.
20:08:43 <elliott> Vorpal: pcsmd opens raw socket, passes to daemon
20:08:45 <Vorpal> and then there is the hardware access class of daemons. cups, acpid, udev, wpa_supplicant.
20:09:09 <Vorpal> actually wpa_supplicant needs both hardware access to configure the wlan card and raw sockets I think
20:09:13 <elliott> oerjan: so did you decide whether it should be selectNext or moveNext
20:09:14 <Deewiant> dhcp client needs to write into /etc/resolv.conf
20:09:21 <zzo38> However, Astrolog does not allow the user to define their own Arabic Parts.
20:09:22 <Vorpal> smartd needs root because of hardware too
20:09:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, not on my system.
20:09:44 <Vorpal> Deewiant, local dns server.
20:10:13 <zzo38> If I make a program I would include the feature to define your own Arabic Parts, for ecliptic as well as equatorial coordinates.
20:10:14 <Deewiant> Where does the DNS server get its remote DNS servers
20:10:16 <Vorpal> /usr/lib/upower/upowerd /usr/lib/policykit-1/polkitd udisks-daemon: polling /dev/sr0 <-- what are these anyway
20:10:22 <Vorpal> a lot of u<whatever> things
20:10:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it is a recursive resolver. It has a list of the root servers.
20:10:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it seems to work
20:10:47 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and a lot better than using my ISP for resolving
20:11:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but sure, most often /etc/resolv.conf has to be written by the dhcp daemon
20:11:47 <Vorpal> nothing that couldn't be handled quite easily by permissions though
20:12:56 * elliott thinks almost every file owned by root should at least have a different group and be group-writable
20:13:09 <elliott> e.g. /etc/resolv.conf might be root:dns 664
20:13:12 <oerjan> zzo38: i used astrolog to make that agora-horoscope and its automatic interpretation. i didn't delve that much deeper into it, i think.
20:14:10 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wow, the biggest bullshit was from the top of the post
20:14:12 <elliott> "The first big distribution with systemd by default will be Fedora 15, due end of May. It is expected that the others will follow the lead a bit later (with one exception)."
20:14:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah. Still dhcp needs raw sockets and ability to mess around with interface config
20:14:15 <elliott> Vorpal: with one exception links to ubuntu
20:14:17 <zzo38> oerjan: And obviously (as far as I can see) you did not change any of the settings from the defaults.
20:14:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and routing tables
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20:15:59 <Vorpal> anyway, does anyone know when the IBM PC clock will roll over? And if it still the same on modern PC compatible hardware.
20:16:07 <Vorpal> that is, the hardware clock
20:16:23 <oerjan> elliott: well obviously selectNext :: Cursor -> Maybe TreeCtx and moveNext :: TreeCtx -> Maybe Cursor, used wherever appropriate
20:16:40 <elliott> oerjan: oh good. and what's the implementation of one of those :P
20:16:59 <Vorpal> what is the context for this?
20:17:54 <zzo38> For example, it has three ways to display the angles (zodiac positions (the default), hours/minutes, or 360 degrees), can work with ecliptic (the default) or equatorial coordinates, can display a horizon view, can display solar system view (with no zoom, unfortunately), animate to real time, timed exposure, a globe of the Earth, ability to change the glyphs for Uranus and Pluto, and more.
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20:19:26 <oerjan> elliott: well i also got thinking about that Top thing.
20:19:41 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, what about it?
20:20:23 <elliott> sigh, I really don't think pcsm can work as a haskell dsl :(
20:20:32 <elliott> i was hoping i could avoid writing my own language :)
20:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, writing a bison grammar is quite easy
20:22:01 <elliott> Vorpal: why the hell would I subject myself to a yacc derivative, let alone C?
20:22:19 <oerjan> what if we made data Cursor = Branch { left :: [Tree], right :: [Tree], tag :: Tag, up :: Cursor } | Top { left :: [Tree], right :: [Tree] }
20:22:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it does not support radians display. If you want, make a wiki page of the kind of features you would want and if I make up my own program, based on Swiss Ephemeris, I might consider some of the things listed there (although there are some things I would deliberately omit, and some which I might or might not want or not know how or have time to implement at first)
20:22:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well be happy then
20:22:40 <oerjan> so that the top can be a list of trees
20:22:40 <elliott> oerjan: um what would that mean
20:22:49 <elliott> Vorpal: still means I have to implement a functional programming language
20:22:58 <elliott> oerjan: ok, but that isn't the case in reality..
20:22:59 <zzo38> The Swiss Ephemeris library does support radians, however.
20:23:17 <elliott> Vorpal: ...including lots of things like exec and waitpid and other grossness that is No Fun(tm0
20:23:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: At least the standard RTC interface "rolls over" every century, since it only stores a two-decimal-digit year. (It's byte 0x09 in the "CMOS" memory region, either in BCD 0x00..0x99 or just a byte with value 0x00..0x63 depending on bit 2 of byte 0x0B.)
20:23:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... I don't really care about that software... Where did I indicate I did?!
20:23:29 <oerjan> elliott: well the thing is that then you don't need an exception to handle going right from the top
20:23:47 <zzo38> Vorpal: You didn't.
20:23:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that offset from 1900? Or did it rollover at 2000?
20:24:11 <elliott> oerjan: there's nothing to the right of (l :> Up)?
20:24:26 <zzo38> But if anyone does, please indicate list of what kind of feature you would think is good idea and so on.
20:24:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, from what I remember there are 4 digit dates in the BIOS settings of all modern clocks. I guess I could check what hwclock(8) reports...
20:25:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a single byte in the original and it's not supposed to go >99. I'd suppose the four digits are just an interface thing.
20:26:02 <oerjan> elliott: but you need some way for an edit to return a cursor when it has handled the very last node
20:26:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm.... Is the same hw interface still used?
20:26:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of which, is there any place all this stuff is documented.
20:26:36 <elliott> oerjan: well, perhaps. shouldn't moving next be separated from the edit?
20:26:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: For the CMOS-memory-area clock, anyway. It could be that there's some other interface (BIOS interrupt driven, or ACPI) that you can use to get more digits.
20:26:39 <Vorpal> or is it just a mix of various standards. With no single official source for it
20:26:40 <elliott> oerjan: that's part of the traversal
20:26:48 <elliott> oerjan: consider: you can't go "backwards" even if the edit does handle it
20:26:51 <elliott> because you start at the first node anyway
20:27:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can find the CMOS data area documented at http://bochs.sourceforge.net/techspec/CMOS-reference.txt
20:27:17 <oerjan> elliott: no, the edit does the moveNext, so that it can return a cursor.
20:27:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is hardly official. But hm.
20:27:28 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but maybe it _shouldn't_
20:27:48 <elliott> oerjan: data Cursor = Branch Tag [Tree] [Tree] Cursor | Top Tree
20:27:57 <elliott> oerjan: data Cursor = Branch Tag [Tree] [Tree] Cursor | Top (Maybe Tree)
20:27:57 <Vorpal> elliott, why does this remind me of sql cursors...
20:28:02 <oerjan> elliott: if it doesn't return a cursor it has nothing sensible to return if it is _deleting_ something
20:28:22 <elliott> oerjan: it can return a different cursor
20:28:31 <elliott> the select{Left,Right} one, for instance
20:29:09 <elliott> oerjan: well I don't see what you're complaining about, if it deletes something then moveRight always succeeds
20:29:13 <elliott> oerjan: unless it deletes the root node
20:30:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway those bytes in the CMOS won't fit the config data in the BIOS on a modern system.
20:30:51 <Vorpal> so I guess there must be more elsewhere
20:31:03 <Vorpal> heck, my desktop even has EFI
20:31:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, there's all those EDID tables and whatnot too.
20:31:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait... isn't EDID for displays?
20:31:45 <fizzie> Uh, the other acronym.
20:31:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, which other one?
20:32:15 <oerjan> elliott: why isn't deleting the root node possible?
20:33:08 <oerjan> i guess if it isn't, then perhaps deleting just fails naturally when going next from it
20:33:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, there's a thing for the system information tables. The DMI ones, at leas.
20:33:49 <oerjan> er i mean, deleting fails naturally because there is no cursor to construct
20:33:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, the BIOS interrupt 0x1a returns also the century, according to the Interrupt List, and presumably current BIOSes track four digits.
20:34:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: And of course EFI's different, and I'd suppose it has an RTC interface too.
20:34:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I'm using the bios emulation of the EFI, because that is easiest
20:35:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why does it track decimal digits (implying BCD?) as opposed to a decimal number
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20:38:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would guess the original clock chips provided a BCD interface, but that's just a guess, and I wouldn't know why. Anyway, the get-time interrupt returns in BCD too.
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20:39:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea if linux exports the physical memory map anywhere?
20:39:31 <Vorpal> it would be interesting to look at it
20:40:32 <Vorpal> hm there is /proc/iomem
20:42:04 <Vorpal> The CMOS memory exists outside of the normal address space and cannot
20:42:05 <Vorpal> contain directly executable code.
20:42:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: ACPI provides interfaces to the wake-up alarm functions, at least; maybe also to the RTC.
20:42:14 <Vorpal> I forgot that x86 has a separate IO bus
20:42:19 <Vorpal> the stupidity of that....
20:43:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: Most of the stuff is memory-mapped; biosdecode/dmidecode go digging in /dev/mem, for example.
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20:43:18 <Vorpal> hm how did PCs power off before ACPI?
20:43:43 <olsner> Vorpal: the power switch
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20:44:46 <Ngevd> That narrows down where the problem is, for sure
20:44:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also hwclock apparently has code to read that CMOS stuff with direct I/O to those ports if /dev/rtc is not available.
20:45:36 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/eDPR (laptop) and http://sprunge.us/URYN (desktop). Quite interesting /proc/iomem
20:45:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes and it doesn't work on anything but 32-bit x86 iirc
20:45:59 <olsner> but before APM I think there just was no way for software to turn a PC off unless you built it a mechanical power switch switcher yourself
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20:46:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it also works on some Alphas.
20:47:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh right, the man page says so
20:47:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, anything with ISA
20:47:21 <Ngevd> Would someone who knows the IRC protocol better than me tell me this:
20:47:33 <fizzie> Also I wouldn't be surprised if there were some pre-APM/almost-APM-but-not-quite poweroff hacks.
20:47:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think x86 systems will have an ISA bus long after the PCI bus is gone
20:47:48 <fizzie> And the powerpc apple PMU can turn a system off, too.
20:47:49 <Vorpal> just because of backward compatiblity
20:48:05 <Ngevd> If a message is sent to the channel, would my bot be able to pick it up as "...PRIVMSG #esoteric :<message>"?
20:48:19 <elliott> Ngevd: yes. ... contains the user info
20:48:26 <Vorpal> Ngevd, you forgot the user info
20:48:35 <Ngevd> See what elliott said
20:49:03 <fizzie> "..." here being ":nick!user@host ", apparently.
20:49:49 <fizzie> It's called the "prefix" in the grammar, IIRC. At least I tend to call it that.
20:50:25 <zzo38> Clients do not receive messages themself send to a channel.
20:50:41 <elliott> ?hoogle a -> (a -> Maybe a) -> a
20:50:42 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap update :: (a -> Maybe a) -> Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a
20:50:42 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:50:42 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> IntMap a -> IntMap b
20:50:51 <zzo38> But yes the message on a channel is received like that
20:51:12 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => f a -> f (Maybe a) -> f a
20:51:28 <elliott> :t \x -> liftA2 fromMaybe (pure x)
20:51:29 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => a -> f (Maybe a) -> f a
20:51:42 <lambdabot> forall a b c (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => (a -> b -> c) -> a -> f b -> f c
20:51:45 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *). (Applicative f) => a -> f a
20:51:47 <elliott> ?hoogle (a -> b -> c) -> a -> f b -> f c
20:51:48 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative liftA2 :: Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c
20:51:48 <lambdabot> Control.Monad liftM2 :: Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
20:51:48 <lambdabot> Prelude zipWith :: (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
20:51:51 <Vorpal> ah, applicative thingy
20:52:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you searching for?
20:52:10 <zzo38> Is the Kleisli category of Maybe monad similar to a category of partial functions?
20:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: a -> (a -> Maybe a) -> a
20:52:35 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> Data.IntMap update :: (a -> Maybe a) -> Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a
20:52:35 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> Data.Maybe mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:52:35 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> Data.IntMap mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> IntMap a -> IntMap b
20:52:43 <elliott> none of those have that type
20:52:51 <elliott> ?hoogle (a -> Maybe a) -> a -> a
20:52:51 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap update :: (a -> Maybe a) -> Key -> IntMap a -> IntMap a
20:52:52 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:52:52 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> IntMap a -> IntMap b
20:52:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well, why did it return them then
21:01:07 <elliott> Vorpal: because hoogle does a fuzzy search
21:04:13 <lambdabot> forall b. (b -> Maybe b) -> b -> b
21:05:03 <elliott> > ap fromMaybe (const Nothing) 99
21:05:08 <elliott> > ap fromMaybe (Just . succ) 99
21:05:19 <lambdabot> (\ e -> fromMaybe >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a))
21:05:45 <oerjan> ?unpl doesn't recognize that fromMaybe is a function
21:05:52 <Vorpal> yeah it isn't even valid
21:06:14 <lambdabot> (\ f -> (\ a -> a) >>= \ c -> f >>= \ b -> return (c b))
21:06:15 <oerjan> :t (\ e -> fromMaybe >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a))
21:06:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Maybe a) -> a -> a
21:06:30 <Deewiant> oerjan: I'm pretty sure it just doesn't care, whether it recognizes or not :-P
21:06:42 <lambdabot> (\ e -> (\ j k -> j >>= \ h -> k >>= \ g -> return (h g)) >>= \ b -> e >>= \ a -> return (b a))
21:06:49 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => (m (a -> b) -> m a) -> m (a -> b) -> m b
21:07:17 <Deewiant> pl doesn't know about Applicatives :-P
21:07:18 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
21:08:04 <elliott> Deewiant: Someone needs to write a better pl :)
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21:09:11 <oerjan> is Pietbot written in Piet?
21:09:22 <Ngevd> May start from scratch
21:09:25 <elliott> oerjan: no, it's written in piet-assembler :(
21:09:37 <elliott> oerjan: remember what i said about iwc endnig
21:09:41 <Ngevd> Because then you would know the password
21:09:52 <oerjan> argh i haven't read iwc yet
21:10:09 <elliott> oh, Ngevd was saying no to Madoka-Kaname
21:10:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah go do so now. You need to.
21:10:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, if no PM information (such as ACPI) is available, the Linux fallback is to try Intel "Trusted Execution Technology" poweroff. Anyway, there are (x86-relevantly) specific poweroff methods for at least ACPI, IPMI, APM, OLPC XO1, SGI Visual Workstation and lguest. (Okay, the last one might not quite count.)
21:10:33 <elliott> oerjan: the mythbusters die
21:10:39 <Ngevd> The assembler isn't much good, gonna rewrite it from scratch
21:10:44 <Vorpal> and DMM had a car accident
21:10:51 <Vorpal> elliott, snap, you beat me to it
21:11:04 <Vorpal> no it was a coworker who did it
21:11:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh wait, what about tripple fault
21:11:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that halts doesn't it?
21:12:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it just reboots.
21:12:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway wtf is "Trusted Execution Technology"
21:12:30 <elliott> <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, if no PM information (such as ACPI) is available, the Linux fallback is to try Intel "Trusted Execution Technology" poweroff. Anyway, there are (x86-relevantly) specific poweroff methods for at least ACPI, IPMI, APM, OLPC XO1, SGI Visual Workstation and lguest. (Okay, the last one might not quite count.)
21:12:39 <elliott> iirc linux actually does it in various non-standard ways
21:12:43 <elliott> there was a post about it on reddit a while back
21:12:53 <elliott> turning a computer off is very grotty, it seems :)
21:12:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think a triple-fault might be a reboot fallback, though. Incidentally, IPMI does have a RTC interface too.
21:13:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I only ever seen server boards have IPMI. Kind of sad, since the IPMI sensor interface actually reports what the damn sensors actually mean
21:13:46 <fizzie> Those were the machine_power_off/pm_power_off methods I could find by quick grepping; well, the x86-relevant ones, anyway.
21:14:28 <fizzie> Wouldn't be surprised if there were some more quirks for laptops, at least some pre-ACPI invented ones.
21:14:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it do if none of them work?
21:14:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it print "please turn off your computer now" or some such?
21:17:01 <elliott> Vorpal: i think oerjan may be dead.
21:18:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it just stays halted (at least this 2.6.37 I had uncompressed), if tboot_shutdown (the trusted-execution thing) isn't enabled. It probably prints "system halted" or something before trying the poweroff at all, but I don't think I'll bother trying to find that. Might even be just init which does that.
21:18:19 <Vorpal> dmidecode is confused about my desktop CPU. It reports it as core 2 duo. It is a core i7 quad
21:18:51 <fizzie> ISTR the "System halted" behaviour from machines that were unable to turn themselves off.
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21:20:24 <Vorpal> hm, max speed 3800 MHz? I guess it is that turbo mode. As far as I know it is 3.3 GHz normally
21:20:46 <Vorpal> the CPU serial number is "To Be Filled By O.E.M."
21:21:52 <fizzie> "Version: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+; Max Speed: 3200 MHz; Current Speed: 2800 MHz" -- well, it's mostly correct, though I don't know where the 3.2 GHz comes from; 2.8 is what the 5600+ is nominally at, and the "actual" current speed is just 1 GHz, thanks to cpufreq.
21:21:58 <evincar> Those of you not fond of me may enjoy laughing at my expense: my laptop display is fucked and I have to replace it.
21:23:06 <Vorpal> evincar, not liking you doesn't mean the same as gloating over someone else broken laptop.
21:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd insult you behind your back, but I don't care which side of your back I insult you on.
21:23:25 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I'd insult you behind your back, but I don't care which side of your back I insult you on.
21:23:28 <HackEgo> 701) <Phantom_Hoover> I'd insult you behind your back, but I don't care which side of your back I insult you on.
21:23:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Heh, dmidecode from the laptop: "Version: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2720QM CPU @ 2.20GHz; Voltage: 0.0 V". It seems I've gotten one of those rare does-not-use-electricity-at-all processors.
21:23:41 <elliott> fizzie: Reversible computing!
21:23:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice. My desktop CPU apparently uses 1.0 V. Which I don't think is correct either
21:24:27 <evincar> Phantom_Hoover: Why wouldn't you assume I have multiple computers? Otherwise I'd be a lot more bent out of shape about this.
21:24:51 <evincar> Vorpal: Right, you don't want to insult the laptop.
21:25:12 <evincar> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I'm just being a dick.
21:25:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Athlon is reporting 1.4V. That might even be close to correct; I think it's 1.35V officially but it could be rounded.
21:25:54 <fizzie> (Laptop) "Board is replaceable"... well, I *guess*... for some values of "replaceable".
21:26:01 <Vorpal> evincar, I might want to insult it. Depends on the brand.
21:26:09 <fizzie> "Number Of Power Cords: 1"
21:26:23 <fizzie> There's no end to the values they've bothered to put here.
21:26:24 <evincar> Heh, just an IdeaPad netbook.
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21:26:45 <fizzie> "Chassis Information: Contained Elements: 0". Uh, right.
21:26:53 <Vorpal> evincar, go for thinkpads. They are better. Still not as good as during the IBM times
21:26:57 <evincar> Lenovo is the one laptop manufacturer I could find that didn't quite utterly fuck up their keyboards...then I went and bought a netbook anyway, because I like pain.
21:27:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, it says the same for my desktop
21:27:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, my chassis info just says to be filled in by OEM basically
21:27:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: The base board on the desktop is version "x.x". I'm not sure if it's trying to be a dead-guy smiley. (Probably not.)
21:28:26 <Ngevd> Maybe it's Roman Numerals?
21:28:26 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0038, DMI type 28, 22 bytes
21:28:26 <Vorpal> Location: <OUT OF SPEC>
21:28:53 <Ngevd> We know we have one, we know what it is, but where it is or how it is? Pfff.
21:29:34 <Vorpal> Temperature Probe Handle: 0x0038
21:29:56 <Vorpal> it lists several cooling devices like that
21:30:05 <Vorpal> I guess it could be optional fans not connected to the mobo?
21:30:09 <olsner> hmm, the location of the probe is "out of spec"? where have you put that probe Vorpal?
21:30:34 <Vorpal> Location: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:34 <Vorpal> Name: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:34 <Vorpal> Manufacturer: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:35 <Vorpal> Serial Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:36 <Vorpal> Asset Tag: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:38 <Vorpal> Model Part Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:40 <Vorpal> Revision: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
21:30:42 <Vorpal> Max Power Capacity: Unknown
21:30:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have a zero power computer too
21:30:53 <Vorpal> my power supply is not present
21:31:06 <Vorpal> however, it is plugged
21:31:08 <Vorpal> Input Voltage Range Switching: <OUT OF SPEC>
21:32:09 <Vorpal> any info not directly concerning the mobo is completely useless in there. I guess that is a result of home-built system
21:32:23 <Vorpal> okay it does seem to know the memory modules too
21:32:29 <fizzie> The laptop DMI tables also have all kinds of ports it doesn't physically have. "Internal Reference Designator: J2A1, External Reference Designator: TV Out, External Connector Type: Mini Centronics Type-14". There's nothing like that; nor is there the "J2A2A; COM A; DB-9 male" serial port, unless they've hidden it really well. Ditto for the DB-15 female (presumably VGA) video, and... uh, well; then there's a pile of strange-sounding internal-only ports. (J9C1 -
21:32:30 <fizzie> PCIE DOCKING CONN. J9E3 - LPC HOT DOCKING. J9E1 - SCAN MATRIX. J9G1 - LPC SIDE BAND.)
21:33:11 <fizzie> The non-existing ports are compensated by the lack of the ports it does have, though.
21:33:12 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0063, DMI type 13, 22 bytes
21:33:12 <Vorpal> BIOS Language Information
21:33:12 <Vorpal> Language Description Format: Abbreviated
21:33:25 <Vorpal> does it list the languages the BIOS menus are available in?
21:33:29 <Vorpal> why would the OS *care*
21:33:44 <Vorpal> (it is eng, fra, ger, chs, chi, jpn)
21:33:56 <fizzie> I have three languages: n|US|iso8859-1, n|US|iso8859-1 again, and r|CA|iso8859-1.
21:34:07 <Vorpal> I have up to handle 0x64 on my desktop btw
21:34:28 <fizzie> Hah, the best: "Portable Battery ... Location: Location of the battery"
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21:34:35 <fizzie> I have to admit it is a true statement.
21:34:37 <Vorpal> I'll check my laptop next
21:34:50 <fizzie> But "the battery is where the battery is" is not so incredibly useful.
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21:35:04 <Vorpal> sounds like modern macs
21:35:16 <Vorpal> the battery is where the battery is and don't you dare touch it
21:35:24 <Vorpal> well, at least my laptop has correct vendor info
21:35:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also for the battery: "Manufacturer: Battery Manufacturer", "Serial Number: Serial Number", "Name: Battery Name", "SBDS Version: SBDS Version Number", "OEM-specific Information: 0x12345678".
21:36:00 <Vorpal> oh come on, my laptop CPU family is "Other"
21:36:10 <Vorpal> my desktop had core 2 duo listed. My desktop actually has an i7
21:36:16 <Vorpal> while my laptop has a core 2 duo
21:36:19 <Vorpal> yet it can't list that
21:36:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: All my probes are <OUT OF SPEC> too.
21:36:53 <Vorpal> and a voltage of 1.1 V for my laptop
21:37:00 <Vorpal> I really would like the zero volt thingy there
21:37:07 <fizzie> dmidecode's main purpose is amusement, I think. (Okay, it *can* usually list memory slot/module details too reasonably well.)
21:37:37 <elliott> So who knows a decent overlay-style fs?? Like unionfs except better.
21:37:39 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0017, DMI type 126, 9 bytes
21:37:43 <elliott> Actually, uh, cunionfs is pretty much what I want.
21:37:43 <Vorpal> I have loads of ones like that
21:37:45 <elliott> Hey Gregor, how's cunionfs.
21:38:00 <fizzie> elliott: I think someone used aufs, but it might well sukc.
21:38:13 <Vorpal> Handle 0x0029, DMI type 13, 22 bytes
21:38:13 <Vorpal> BIOS Language Information
21:38:13 <Vorpal> Installable Languages: 1
21:38:13 <Vorpal> Currently Installed Language: enUS
21:38:29 <elliott> fizzie: Well, there's that and unionfs itself (I understand there's quite the flamewar between the two), but I kind of want something per-process.
21:38:40 <elliott> fizzie: Because e.g. a user should see their installed packages on the system.
21:38:42 <Vorpal> Manufacturer: Panasonic
21:38:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, aww, my laptop has boring accurate info
21:39:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I guess it's made by a real manufacturer. :p
21:39:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, everything about the CPU family seems boringly accurate
21:39:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes. It is a Lenovo Thinkpad
21:39:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, what brand is your laptop
21:40:34 <Vorpal> strange thing on my desktop. It only lists 6 SATA ports + 1 eSATA port. I have 8 internal physical SATA ports and two external eSATA ports
21:40:39 <Vorpal> I wonder what is going on there
21:40:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's... vaguely defined. I mean, I bought it from some small shop in Germany, and they constructed it out of a skeleton made by Clevo. I also asked them to leave all logos off. So it's sort of a no-name.
21:41:15 <elliott> fizzie: That sounds super-reliable.
21:41:31 <elliott> I know _I_ trust small German shops with all my computer needs.
21:41:38 <elliott> What's the name of the shop? We'll call it that.
21:41:54 <fizzie> I forget exactly who it was, since there were so many to choose from.
21:41:54 <Vorpal> my thinkpad just have two logos, A discrete "lenovo" on the top of the lid. It is black on black. Just a shift in depth of the surface really
21:42:01 <Vorpal> and the usual thinkpad logo on the palmrest
21:42:03 <fizzie> People(tm) said reasonable things about Clevo parts, though.
21:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: And the Windows sticker it came with.
21:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, nope. I had to get a replacement palmrest.
21:43:14 <Vorpal> elliott, originally there was a small core 2 duo and a small windows vista business sticker as well
21:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, which I removed anyway
21:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I have nothing against the thinkpad logo. And the lenovo logo is discrete enough to not bother me
21:44:00 <Vorpal> oh wait, it says thinkpad on the lid too
21:44:07 <Vorpal> same logo as on the palmrest
21:44:13 <Vorpal> well that doesn't bother me either
21:44:23 <elliott> My main laptop has... one name on it.
21:44:28 <elliott> "MacBook Air" below the screen.
21:44:34 <elliott> Also an Apple logo on the back, but who ever looks there?
21:44:39 <elliott> This Toshiba has many(tm).
21:44:51 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you on a toshiba atm
21:44:52 <elliott> Toshiba below the screen, on the back, "Satellite" to the left of the trackpad,
21:45:02 <elliott> "Intel Pentium Inside", "Windows 7", "Toshiba Easy Media" stickers.
21:45:11 <Vorpal> elliott, did you finally send the macbook off to get fixed?
21:45:18 <Vorpal> elliott, pentium, ouch
21:45:32 <elliott> Vorpal: My MacBook Air turned itself off, and then refused to turn back on again, approximately ~3 minutes before I intended to watch EOA5.
21:45:40 <elliott> I suppose the idea of a thirteen minute Flash video was just too much for it to bear?
21:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway did you send it to apple finally then?
21:45:52 <elliott> Vorpal: You know. Hamsteaks. The one that crashed Newgrounds.
21:46:01 <elliott> Have you even _read_ a single page since binging?
21:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't had time
21:46:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll do a second binge next year of the rest of it
21:47:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the same way I read freefall. Next binge should be around xmas of that iirc
21:47:13 <elliott> If it's done by next year.
21:47:18 <elliott> Anyway, get speakers that time.
21:47:32 <Vorpal> elliott, headphones you mean
21:47:37 <elliott> (Unless you want to sit through a 13 minute silent film, which I suppose is possible if uninteresting.)
21:48:50 <Vorpal> ooh, 2 new videos on yogscast. bbiab
21:49:07 <elliott> --Vorpal "Doesn't Have Time For Homestuck" Vorpal
21:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it is about priorities
21:49:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer yogscast over homestuck
21:52:19 <Ngevd> Next version of Pietbot now outputs "NICK P"
21:53:07 <fizzie> What's the current resolution of the source code?
21:54:13 <fizzie> I was hoping for the total width x height in codels; I just couldn't pass the opportunity to use "resolution of the source code" there, even if it's a bit wrong.
21:55:03 <fizzie> That is weirdly small. Oh, or was that just for the NICK P thing?
21:55:34 <elliott> Why does Arch even have groups as opposed to just empty packages?
21:55:51 <fizzie> How about the one which connected and all?
21:56:14 <Vorpal> elliott, buggered if I know. They are annoying to deal with too. I have no idea where they are defined
21:56:37 <fizzie> elliott: There's some sort of a "never metapackage I didn't" pun-portunity lurking in here somewhere.
21:59:05 <zzo38> How should the namespace for a Haskell program to deal with DVI files be called?
22:00:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Can you run vpddecode on your laptop? It's supposed to work on most IBM/Lenovo machines. (Probably won't return anything very interesting, though it should tell the model.)
22:02:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, just BIOS build id, box serial number, mobo serial, and machine model code
22:02:30 <Ngevd> Okay, I've made a small mistake
22:02:35 <Ngevd> It now outputs "NICK Pim"
22:02:45 <fizzie> Right, but it did work. Was just curious; it's all "No VPD structure found, sorry" for everything I have.
22:02:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm half-tempted to make inst work on KDE.
22:02:58 <fizzie> Ngevd: It's trying to become a PimpBot.
22:03:17 <elliott> Oh no, there isn't a big "all of KDE" package any more.
22:05:50 <Ngevd> I will now show you what it outputs.
22:05:56 <Ngevd> > cycle "NICK pie"
22:05:57 <lambdabot> "NICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNICK pieNI...
22:06:06 -!- kmc__ has changed nick to kmc.
22:06:45 <zzo38> OK, I could use Graphics.DVI
22:07:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also upon close inspection, the laptop in fact has two "Portable Battery"s. Both batteries have a location of "Location of the battery", but one is called "Battery Name" while the other is named "BATT 1". (Both are also NiCd batteries, which I strongly doubt.)
22:07:09 <zzo38> Although font metrics might should be different module??
22:07:58 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: byezz).
22:07:59 <zzo38> What should its package name be?
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22:13:00 <elliott> pikhq: You know a lot about multilib right???
22:13:40 <zzo38> What should the package name be for Haskell library to read/write/process DVI files?
22:13:55 <elliott> whatever you want to call it
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22:15:19 <Deewiant> elliott: Sounds like a program, not a library
22:16:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, nice batteries
22:16:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, my battery info is completely accurate :/
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22:16:41 <Vorpal> hm should check if it lists any second ultrabay battery as being installed
22:17:38 <zzo38> Deewiant: Do you mean the dvi-processor?
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22:51:46 <Phantom__Hoover> (Even *knowing* about Two Steps From Hell has completely ruined watching any kind of advertisement.)
22:54:27 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Steps_From_Hell
22:54:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: this is so bad
22:54:34 <elliott> who would buy those two albums
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23:01:22 <olsner> not surprisingly, their own promotional videos have the same epic music
23:03:36 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: you can fix that youtube problem by simply asking them to vigorously maintain their copyright right? >:P
23:04:27 <oerjan> s/asking them/subtly suggesting for them/
23:04:55 <olsner> I would think they'd rather have their music promoted so that more movie trailers use their music and pay for it
23:05:32 <Vorpal> what is so bad about it?
23:05:38 <Vorpal> note: I haven't listened to it yet
23:05:46 <Vorpal> nor will I unless someone gives me a link
23:06:21 <olsner> ... also you can google
23:07:19 <olsner> well done, you've found the link! :)
23:07:34 <Vorpal> olsner, I see no youtube link there though
23:08:16 <Vorpal> so that is what I asked for a link to...
23:08:23 <Vorpal> <olsner> not surprisingly, their own promotional videos have the same epic music
23:08:30 <Vorpal> olsner, which one in particular did you mean?++++++++
23:08:44 <olsner> that was not on youtube
23:08:53 <Vorpal> oh, well where is that then?
23:09:02 <Vorpal> if it is flash and not youtube, don't bother
23:09:11 <olsner> ok, it was flash and not youtube
23:09:31 <Vorpal> oh it is on youtube, at least the trailers they link
23:09:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, how large a rock do you live under if you think there are web videos left that don't use Flash?
23:09:46 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, html5 man
23:09:52 <Vorpal> one of them was anyway
23:10:21 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, and Bethesda used HTML5 videos for their skyrim gameplay footage
23:10:51 <olsner> the one I found was http://www.twostepsfromhell.com/dynastypromo.php
23:11:11 <Vorpal> the twilight one at the top is html5 from youtube for me
23:12:06 <elliott> <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, how large a rock do you live under if you think there are web videos left that don't use Flash?
23:12:42 <olsner> Vorpal: the video tab seems to have all the stuff that other people have made using their music
23:12:53 <Vorpal> hey there is an embedded .mov here
23:12:54 <elliott> you live under a different rock, because the premise is false
23:13:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well there are some embedded .movs still. And some HTML5 videos are starting to show up
23:13:18 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: html5 is pretty common.
23:13:34 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, well OK, but only recently, so I forgot about it.
23:13:51 <elliott> recently as in "past few years" :)
23:15:04 <Vorpal> oh god, live actors for a skyrim trailer. How does that even make sense.
23:15:16 <olsner> hmm, the episode starts with sisko being relieved of command... this can only mean that the rest of the episode is about him getting it back somehow
23:15:22 <Vorpal> (front page video on http://www.elderscrolls.com/ after you selected language)
23:15:31 <olsner> or maybe it'll be a cliffhanger! I'm already looking forward to the next season
23:15:54 <elliott> olsner: what season are you on>
23:16:25 <olsner> elliott: just started watching the final episode of season 3
23:16:29 <elliott> one of the two steps from hell guys
23:16:42 <elliott> olsner: that's about when the good starts :)
23:16:46 <elliott> olsner: skip profit and lace btw
23:16:53 <olsner> and the other one is from hexham?
23:19:10 <olsner> hmm, where did I get the idea that two steps from hell was exactly two guys?
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23:20:01 <elliott> But it takes about a season to amp up to full goodness.
23:20:26 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover is actually sleeping as we speak.
23:21:11 <olsner> "about" gives you "a few" something of whatever unit you are using, could be seasons in this case
23:21:50 <Vorpal> hey, the first elderscrolls game is available as a free download next to a dosbox link nowdays
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23:22:27 <Vorpal> same for the second one
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