00:01:14 <Ngevd> I don't go to Kindle
00:01:35 <Ngevd> Kindle is reserved for when I'm, you know, on a Kindle
00:04:37 <Vorpal> Ngevd, try /nick Taneb|Hovercraft or whatever you want
00:04:53 <Vorpal> Ngevd, you can renick once you ghosted the dead connection, or once it timed out
00:04:59 <Ngevd> It's Ngevd time now
00:05:05 <Vorpal> Ngevd, come on, you could just copy what I wrote
00:05:45 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to TheAstoundingVan.
00:05:56 <Vorpal> no no, it is Ngevd time
00:06:12 <Vorpal> TheAstoundingVan, what was it supposed to be?
00:06:19 <Vorpal> anyway of course there is a max length
00:06:26 <monqy> I can't imagine TheAstoundingVan not being the intention
00:06:27 <Vorpal> it is right there in the irc protocol iirc
00:06:46 <Vorpal> indeed your current nick is quite nice
00:06:55 <Vorpal> except it moved the nick column out quite a bit
00:07:05 <Vorpal> (I have xchat style nick column)
00:07:31 <Vorpal> (because, frankly it is a lot easier to read irc that way IMO)
00:08:24 <Vorpal> TheAstoundingVan, I'm on mixed atm. Lets see, this is on ubuntu, a freebsd box is running on the other side of the room, and my desktop is on windows 7 atm waiting for bloody stupid steam to decide it doesn't need to install .NET for the fourth time.
00:09:08 <TheAstoundingVan> Well, one computer that I could feasibly chat on IRC with that is definitely in my possession
00:11:29 <elliott> TheAstoundingVan: Upgrade it to 95.
00:14:49 <elliott> why don't i have rollercoaster tycoon
00:16:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it is old enough to run okay in qemu I think...
00:16:35 <Vorpal> so even if it doesn't work in wine
00:16:36 <elliott> i could just use virtualbox
00:20:02 <elliott> This option provides a seed that GCC uses when it would otherwise
00:20:02 <elliott> use random numbers. It is used to generate certain symbol names
00:20:02 <elliott> that have to be different in every compiled file.
00:20:10 <elliott> gcc relies on random numbers not repeating over different runs?
00:23:42 <TheAstoundingVan> How am I going to get a simultaneous Lego, sport, and Linux fix now!
00:25:37 <elliott> TheAstoundingVan: other people played lego alpha team?
00:26:03 -!- ive has joined.
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00:26:38 <oerjan> <elliott> are you me <-- i thought we had established that already.
00:30:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to moqny.
00:30:51 <ettioll> moqny, is "Elliott" an old family name for you?
00:30:59 <moqny> yes that's why it's my first name
00:31:02 <ettioll> also, do you speak in a fake London accent?
00:31:05 <moqny> family names go first
00:31:27 <Vorpal> moqny, on Iceland they do yes
00:31:31 <Vorpal> not in the rest of the world
00:31:46 <moqny> iceland doesnt have family names
00:31:53 <ettioll> My great-great-great grandmother was called Elliott
00:32:02 <moqny> so no Vorpal UR WRONGE,
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00:33:10 <noqmy> monqy, move to Hexham and make this even more confusing
00:33:20 <noqmy> also, get older before Thursday
00:33:34 <monqy> I'm a minute older than I was a minute ago
00:36:25 -!- oerjan has changed nick to nomqy.
00:39:32 <zzo38> HHHHIIIIIIII>>??;/, . .. ../ /
00:39:50 <noqmy> you are now Pietbot's arch enemy, pikhq_
00:39:56 <noqmy> I hope you are happy
00:40:10 <nomqy> Happy happy joy joy
00:41:19 <noqmy> ;_; ;__; ;___; ;_____;
00:41:47 <moqny> let's just always be monqy
00:42:24 <nomqy> \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \o/
00:43:04 <monqy> nomqy's painful adjustment to a name shorter than myndzi\
00:44:15 <moqny> monqy: do you have a constraint solver free
00:44:38 <nomqy> don't be silly, how can it be constrained and free at the same time
00:45:16 <monqy> all my constraint solver costs big money
00:46:08 <moqny> monqy: I have biggest money
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00:47:29 <noqmy> moqny, I have created more esolangs than you
00:47:34 <noqmy> How did this happen
00:47:50 <moqny> i have created more than is on my wiki page, i believe
00:49:30 <monqy> I have not designed many esolangs
00:50:13 <noqmy> That's interesting
00:50:31 <monqy> i have not designed many esolangs shame
00:51:28 <monqy> hm, that might be a bit hard to parse
00:51:34 <monqy> properly, at least
00:52:06 <noqmy> Luigi is a language which only I believe to be Turing-complete
00:52:38 <nomqy> i shall now proceed to design ~ 40310 esolangs at once
00:52:43 <monqy> have you proven this
00:52:51 <nomqy> > permutations "+-<>[].,"
00:52:51 <monqy> its turing completeness
00:52:52 <lambdabot> ["+-<>[].,","-+<>[].,","<-+>[].,","-<+>[].,","<+->[].,","+<->[].,","><-+[]....
00:53:03 <monqy> people other than you not believing in its turing completenes
00:53:05 <noqmy> Apparently neither of them count
00:53:05 <monqy> have you proven that
00:53:15 <noqmy> Neither of the other people count
00:53:18 <monqy> did you bungle the proofs or is everyone just a jerk
00:53:28 <moqny> he bungled the proofs
00:53:29 <noqmy> I bungled the proofs
00:53:40 <monqy> bungle, a good word
00:53:41 <noqmy> I translated non-turing complete turing machines
00:54:03 <noqmy> I can translate arbitrary turing machines to Luigi, but can't be bothered with long ones
00:54:16 <noqmy> With lots of states
00:54:27 <monqy> automation reasons
00:54:47 <monqy> if you can write a sound algorithm to perform the reduction, who needs manual translation?
00:54:54 <noqmy> If someone finds or creates a notation for expressing Turing-Machines, I will do so
00:55:07 <nomqy> that's why i post general translators instead
00:55:25 <noqmy> I did that for Nandypants and Noryshorts
00:55:31 <noqmy> Which were my first published esolangs
00:55:39 <monqy> lambda calculus (laughs)
00:55:43 <monqy> sk calculus (laughs)
00:55:46 <monqy> brainfuck (laughs)
00:55:49 <moqny> <noqmy> I can translate arbitrary turing machines to Luigi, but can't be bothered with long ones
00:55:58 <moqny> did you actually prove every tm can be translated though
00:56:07 <noqmy> No, but I am able to translate any one
00:56:17 <noqmy> I just haven't bothered proving it
00:56:57 <moqny> proof by i hope taneb doesn't die
00:58:08 <noqmy> It's simple really
00:59:13 <noqmy> But annoyingly hard to describe
00:59:53 <noqmy> For each cell, you put an "N" followed by a number representing its colour
01:00:24 <noqmy> Except for the one with the poor sod in the box, in which you put a letter representing the state of the poor sod in a box instead of the "N"
01:01:06 <noqmy> Then you put an expand left marker at the left end of the tape and an expand right marker at the right end of the tape
01:01:35 <noqmy> These can be any characters that aren't a semicolon or used to represent a pen state or a cell colour
01:01:44 <noqmy> That is the initial tape
01:02:30 <noqmy> Then you put ";L;LN0;R;N0R;", assuming L and R are the expand markers
01:02:48 <noqmy> And 0 is the default colour
01:03:05 <noqmy> Now comes the tedious bit
01:03:19 <noqmy> For each rule, first see if it moves left or right
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01:17:24 <moqny> it sucks being a hydrogen cat
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01:52:13 <zzo38> I figured out how to use Astrolog to compute the date of Chinese New Year.
01:54:30 <zzo38> It is simple to do by using the Ephemeris chart and restricting everything except the Sun and Moon.
01:54:50 <zzo38> It is most likely to occur in January or February.
01:55:44 <zzo38> So that is the date you would look firts.
01:56:12 <zzo38> The longitude for Chinese would be 120:00E
02:04:51 <pikhq> Makes sense that that'd work.
02:05:13 <pikhq> I mean, Chinese holidays are on their old, lunar calendar.
02:07:53 <zzo38> Yes; it is the new moon before the sun reaches 330 degrees (also called Pisces). On the Ephemeris calendar you can see the red line for Sun and blue line for Moon (by default there are many more, but you can turn off whatever you want to omit). When the red and blue line cross is the new moon. You can pause animation and use !@#$%^&*( and -+ to advance the time. And then look the red line is to the left of the 330 degrees point, because it will
02:08:59 <nomqy> ... because it will
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02:09:35 <zzo38> ... because it will then reach that point in a few days or a month or so.
02:10:44 <zzo38> (Important Note: This "Pisces" has nothing to do with the constellation of the same name; in this context, "Pisces" is just another name for 330 degrees. I prefer to work directly in degrees.)
02:48:07 <moqny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blissiness
02:48:11 <moqny> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
02:48:11 <moqny> Blissiness is created with bliss and busy with makes blissiness. It is now the mark into internet for the websitecreator, former librarian:) .
02:48:11 <moqny> Blissiness rooted in bliss meaning not excited not the other side of excited, just in the neutral midst. Blissiness rooted in being busy and disappearing in, there is no doer and object, just a verb like there is only "singing", 'doing', 'creating' and so on '...... ing'. A realized way being without ego, just clear consciousness itsself, not the content of it thats something else. A realized one has no ego left and abide as pure consciousness. Its
02:48:12 <moqny> hard to tell, explain, just one knows as experience or not. The easiest way to explain is that one in the most difficult situations experience to be without ego just listening as pure consciousness with no interferention of mind itsself: sure this is not easy. Many realized let see that it happen in the world today.
02:48:17 <moqny> monqy: recent changes = best???
03:06:42 <oerjan> that didn't last long :P
03:08:00 <oerjan> apparently i was just 1 minute too late
03:08:16 <moqny> (cur | prev) 02:47, 31 October 2011 Skater (talk | contribs) (931 bytes) (Requesting speedy deletion (CSD A1). (TW)) (undo)
03:08:16 <moqny> (cur | prev) 02:46, 31 October 2011 Blissiness (talk | contribs) (914 bytes) (Explanation and meaning of 'blissiness' as mark on the internet.) (Tag: possible autobiography or conflict of interest)
03:08:17 <moqny> blissiness 2:46--3:05
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04:01:25 <zzo38> Can you file for univorce if you are unmarried and don't like yourself anymore?
04:03:32 <zzo38> How common are golf balls with plutonium?
04:03:59 <oerjan> well the di- in divorce apparently comes from a preposition meaning apart, not two, so i think it would be a portmanteau
04:05:30 <oerjan> i suspect they are very rare.
04:05:46 <oerjan> why would you want an extremely heavy golf ball, anyhow.
04:06:08 <zzo38> I just read these things somewhere.
04:06:20 <moqny> `addquote <zzo38> Can you file for univorce if you are unmarried and don't like yourself anymore?
04:06:23 <HackEgo> 701) <zzo38> Can you file for univorce if you are unmarried and don't like yourself anymore?
04:09:33 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so. But someone was trying to write something else, probably to make a joke
04:12:06 <oerjan> now i'm reminded of that disembodied spirit in H2G2
04:12:24 <oerjan> which apparently had done _just_ that
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04:40:57 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it was Jyte claims I was looking at, I think.
04:42:34 <zzo38> What if you played Napoleon with aces low? I think that would affect the game a lot; while most games are unaffected by making aces low (as long as it is decided before the cards are dealt, that is).
04:43:31 <zzo38> A card game for five players.
04:44:15 <oerjan> some games have aces both high and low
04:45:36 <zzo38> But in trick taking games, aces are usually high only, and changing the rules such that aces are low won't affect anything.
04:48:01 <oerjan> yes, if only the order of ranks matters, then it's just a simple permutation
04:50:40 <zzo38> But Napoleon has some unusual rules, such as: the ace of spades beats everything, if five cards of the same suit are played then the two wins (if there is a two), you earn a point for a TJQKA of each suit (and if you collect all 20 without bidding 20, you lose due to the Siberian rule), etc
04:53:05 <zzo38> Actually, it is your team's cards collcted that count; the team is selected by a card the declarer names, whoever holds that card is the declarer's partner, but nobody else knows who it is until the named card is played (it is possible for the declarer to name a card he holds, playing alone, and earning more points at the end)
04:59:53 <zzo38> Have you ever played these kind of card game?
05:16:11 <zzo38> If I make the program based on Swiss Ephemeris (not soon, though; probably later) what is it should be called????????????????????????????????
05:22:46 <quintopia> i dont think the name has been taken
05:23:14 <zzo38> I still disagree however
05:24:38 <quintopia> you asked for suggestions. you arent obligated to take them
05:51:52 <zzo38> You try write such a program.
06:00:57 <zzo38> Is string theory: science, philosophy, or mathematics?
06:03:21 <moqny> it's string theory
06:03:30 <moqny> monqy: should i change my nick back
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06:04:31 <zzo38> I say yes but it is not up to me
06:14:55 <moqny> monqy: if you're gonna be opinionless at least write pcsm for me sheesh
06:15:20 <moqny> Vorpal: tup update btw, dunno if you're subscribed to tup-users
06:15:47 <Vorpal> moqny, no I didn't. Doesn't affect the arch package, it is a -git package.
06:16:05 <Vorpal> So unless git repo url or build/install steps change it doesn't really need changing
06:16:08 <moqny> no I "didn't"? anyway I know that, I was just saying you should reinstall it
06:16:09 <zzo38> Another fictitious object I want to include is the "ecclesiastical moon".
06:16:27 <Vorpal> moqny, "no I didn't subscribe to that list"
06:16:29 <monqy> moqny: whats pcsm :(
06:16:55 <zzo38> If that is possible.
06:17:02 <moqny> monqy: purely crystalline sex monsters (it is actually packaconfigurservice manager)
06:19:07 <oerjan> zzo38: is that what they use to calculate easter?
06:21:25 <moqny> the ecclesiastical moon is real it's just really black so you can't see it
06:21:30 <moqny> (it's dirty because nobody cares about it)
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06:21:39 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris allows defining fictitious objects in external files. By default it includes the Uranians although you can add stuff.
06:23:29 <zzo38> You can add planets to the solar system as well as moons to the Earth.
06:24:01 <oerjan> moqny: sure they care, how would they otherwise know when to collect easter eggs?
06:24:19 <moqny> oerjan: no they dont lov ie t
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06:35:52 <elliott> Ngevd there is absolutely no justification for anyone to be up at this time ever at all.
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07:12:17 <Taneb> "a country that resembles the United Kingdom, identifiable from the grey skies and mandatory uniforms."
07:12:17 <Taneb> What have we become.
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07:35:29 <Ngevd> I think, if we actually end up in a dystopia, it will not be Orwellian
07:35:36 <Ngevd> Nor will it be Huxleyis
07:38:46 <Ngevd> It will be like that book I read once
07:38:58 <Ngevd> It was called... Framed? Traces? something like that...
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08:25:23 <coppro> apparently my typing speed is 95 wpm
08:25:42 <coppro> no wonder I can actually follow along writing notes in LaTeX
08:25:54 <coppro> (this is a bitch in linear algebra)
08:26:16 <Ngevd> Learn shorthand typing
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08:59:24 <myndzi\> i went and bothered to actually look up how wpm is defined the other day
08:59:29 <myndzi\> turns out i was calculating it wrong by removing spaces
08:59:31 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
08:59:37 <myndzi> i actually type about 150 in bursts on irc ;)
09:01:41 <coppro> I'm not entirely surprised, I can certainly get much higher in bursts when I'm typing out my own thoughts than when I'm typing from text I'm reading as I go which is the standard testing method
09:01:59 <oklopol> 95 is not much for english
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09:02:48 <coppro> oklopol: what? 95 is plenty
09:02:53 <coppro> like, professional plenty
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09:05:50 <oklopol> perhaps i just know too many crazy people
09:06:05 <oklopol> it seems it's like the top 0%
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09:07:53 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:08:21 <Ngevd> Teacher training day
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09:09:42 <oerjan> soon they'll be able to fetch and roll around
09:09:54 <oklopol> it seems the average is 36
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09:15:47 <augur> oerjan! you're norwegian!
09:15:52 <augur> oklopol: you're finnish!
09:16:11 <augur> i need judgements :D
09:16:19 <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish
09:16:55 <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories
09:17:02 <augur> oerjan: can i get judgments?
09:17:42 <augur> first can you translate John has spoken with the boys, and Susan has spoken with the girls
09:18:06 <oerjan> John har snakket med guttene, og Susan har snakket med jentene
09:19:10 <augur> ahhhh no determiner!
09:19:13 <oklopol> seems you're still doing the same thing
09:19:30 <augur> John has spoken with every boy and Susan has spoken with every girl
09:19:37 <augur> oklopol: same stuff, but different specifics :p
09:19:53 * oklopol predicts exact same word order
09:19:56 <oerjan> John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan har snakket med hver jente
09:20:12 <oklopol> did not expect them to align almost perfectly
09:20:21 <oerjan> augur: you can force a determiner on definite nouns by adding an adjective, btw.
09:20:25 <Ngevd> Ionus pueroris dixit, et Susanna puellis
09:20:58 <Ngevd> Ionus omnis pueroris dixit, et Susanna omnis puellis
09:21:16 <Ngevd> s/pueroris/pueris/
09:21:23 <augur> oerjan: good or bad: John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan har med hver jente
09:21:36 <oklopol> augur: that was the old stuff
09:21:39 <oerjan> heh i expected precisely that one from you :P
09:21:55 <oklopol> augur: basically exactly what oerjan just said
09:22:01 <oerjan> "har med" is an idiom meaning something else, too
09:22:08 <augur> ok and without "har"?
09:22:26 <augur> ok, so you speak like i need to you
09:22:32 <augur> ok lets get to the real questions :)
09:23:02 <augur> John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan hver jente
09:23:41 <augur> to mean the same as "John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan har snakket med hver jente" ?
09:23:43 <oklopol> i'm just gonna watch this and leave just before i'm needed (unless one was enough)
09:24:20 <augur> John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan med jente
09:25:24 <augur> John har snakket med hver gutt og Susan jente
09:25:53 <augur> thank you for being a perfect speaker of norwegian :D
09:26:23 <augur> oklopol: you willing? :x
09:26:55 <oklopol> you should probably talk to Deewiant or fizzie, i tend to find everything correct
09:26:59 <Ngevd> That reminds me of something I said once, augur
09:27:06 <Ngevd> "I need someone who's willing."
09:27:12 <augur> i think fizzie was my last informant anyway
09:27:21 <augur> but i think you gave me good judgments too, oklopol!
09:27:58 <oerjan> oklopol thinks äkkyllä sitä toikolassa sounds correct
09:27:59 <oklopol> but the real reason i have to go is
09:28:16 * augur rapes oklopol farewell
09:28:23 <oklopol> augur: kky is not a word i know
09:28:49 <oklopol> toikola is obviously a place, that means to hit someone with an kky in toivola
09:31:47 <oklopol> the interesting part is where the allative form of kky is kkyll, it would usually be kyll
09:33:01 <oklopol> i have a hunch they do that in some dialect here
09:33:12 <oerjan> i haven't quite got those consonant modifications pat down yet.
09:33:14 <oklopol> i can't really speak in any dialect
09:33:55 <oklopol> except for using two words that are rare outside turku which i haven't been able to get rid of
09:34:05 <oerjan> although i actually had this sort of hunch the kk was wrong there
09:34:23 <augur> oerjan: wanna give my paper draft a read through, up to but not including section 3? :D
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10:11:53 <Ngevd> If it is possible to write a quine in Brook, Brook is more computationally powerful than a linear-bounded automaton
10:12:03 <Ngevd> ^^^ Taneb's conjecture
10:13:24 <oerjan> i don't know if the conclusion is true, but i don't think that's a sound argument...
10:20:20 <Ngevd> It is clear that the computational power of Brook is at least that of a Linear Bounded Automaton
10:20:44 <Ngevd> As indeed it is, if one discounts the commands 'c' and 'C'
10:27:36 <Ngevd> However, with the commands 'c' and 'C', if a quine is possible an infinite loop is possible
10:28:17 <Ngevd> Not the greatest of arguments, I'll admit
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10:36:17 <Ngevd> I just put my surname into Wolfram Alpha, because I'm bored
10:36:42 <Ngevd> Wolfram Alpha interpreted it as two words
10:36:48 <Ngevd> Which are both place names
10:38:02 <Ngevd> I got a better result than my friend's surname
10:38:07 <Ngevd> Which redirects to "Horse"
10:41:01 <oerjan> boringly enough, WA interprets my surname as a surname :P
10:41:57 <oerjan> and claims 1 in 28409 americans have it
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10:47:29 <Ngevd> The third most common first name for my surname is apparently Jan
10:50:10 <fizzie> W|A redirects my surname into a location; Kalajoki, North Ostrobothnia, population 9278.
10:50:22 <fizzie> "Notable people born in Kalajoki: (none known)"
10:50:39 <oerjan> fizzie: are your ancestors from there?
10:51:02 <Ngevd> My ancestors are from a town near Utrecht, the Netherlands
10:51:04 <fizzie> They're from pretty much the opposite side of the country.
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10:54:15 <fizzie> "Other tips for using Wolfram|Alpha: You can only get answers about objective facts. Try "highest mountain", not "most beautiful painting".
10:54:35 <fizzie> "most beautiful painting" ends up giving a comparison table between to periodical publications, Beautiful and Painting.
10:55:00 <fizzie> "Only what is known is known to Wolfram|Alpha
10:55:01 <fizzie> Ask "how many men in Mauritania", not "how many monsters in Loch Ness""
10:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, surely the most beautiful painting is one of Stephen Wolfram.
10:55:55 <fizzie> So I ask the latter. "Input interpretation: How many Loch Ness monsters are there?" "Result: 0 (For the most part, the scientific community considers evidence of the existence of such creatures to be a combination of misidentification and deliberate hoaxes.)"
10:58:51 <fizzie> You can type in "edge detect Abraham Lincoln image with radius 7" into W|A, and it will do input interpretation: EdgeDetect[ [Abraham Lincoln | Image], 7 (radius) ] and give the resulting image.
11:00:44 <fizzie> OTOH, if you ask it to "edge detect Abraham Lincoln" and don't mention the image, it will compare Abraham Lincoln and Edge, the wrestler.
11:01:18 <Ngevd> Not Edge, the U2 member?
11:02:59 <oerjan> i assume you were thinking of http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2049.html
11:03:04 <fizzie> Ngevd: If you ask it to "edge detect the edge image", it will edge-detect an image of the U2 guitarist.
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11:06:32 <fizzie> I asked it about "who would win in a fight" in general, but it just produced a dictionary-ish definition for the word "fight".
11:07:08 <Ngevd> Aww, now I've got Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny
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11:41:44 <CakeProphet> so how do I set myself as a postgres user?
11:46:11 <CakeProphet> could not change directory to "/home/adam/scripts/repos/aioseo/aiofront"
11:46:26 <CakeProphet> there's no db file, and now I try to run it again it says the db already exists.
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13:40:30 <Ngevd> I now have Banksy as my wallpaper
13:40:52 <Ngevd> To be precise, a work by Banksy </thompson>
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14:28:57 <Ngevd> I think the protests in London are bring down the corrupt capalist church
14:33:13 <CakeProphet> corrupt protestant brainwashing corporations, man.
14:33:52 <Ngevd> Bring down this theocratic tyranny
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15:01:00 <Taneb> "Singing one song to the tune of another" does not seem to be a Wikipedia article
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15:11:56 <Taneb> I regret introducing my friend to the Crazy World of Arthur Brown
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16:32:48 <HackEgo> 226) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
16:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh damn, I was counting on the connection having dropped.
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18:35:27 <elliott> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day
18:44:05 <elliott> 08:25:23: <coppro> apparently my typing speed is 95 wpm
18:44:39 <elliott> 09:02:48: <coppro> oklopol: what? 95 is plenty
18:44:39 <elliott> 09:02:53: <coppro> like, professional plenty
18:45:02 <elliott> `addquote <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories
18:45:05 <HackEgo> 702) <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories
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18:57:41 <elliott\unfoog> also, /dev/null/nethack makes less than zero sense, as a name
19:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott\unfoog, the worldwide interest in thigh massage is not that high!
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19:28:07 <elliott\unfoog> Does anyone know a decent x86 emulator for people without fancy virtualising CPUs that doesn't taint your kernel with TAINT_CRAP like VirtualBox does
19:28:13 <elliott\unfoog> (qemu does not count as decent for reasons of being so fucking slow)
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19:31:01 <pikhq> Well, VMware only does tainting from being proprietary.
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19:33:42 <elliott\unfoog> pikhq: Have I mentioned that Kitten is probably going to happen soonish.
19:35:09 <elliott\unfoog> Sighh, gpasswd -G vboxusers elliott; modprobe vboxdrv vboxnetflt.
19:36:57 <ais523\unfoog> elliott\unfoog: wow that nick is annoying given you aren't in unfoog
19:37:30 <elliott\unfoog> I have determined that this nick has some kind of special power which stops me from being kicked :P
19:37:30 <ais523\unfoog> surely having a misleading nick isn't a channel offence, but a server offence?
19:38:38 <ais523\unfoog> I've just sent a verbal patch for a /dev/null bug; seems krystal had added field to a structure /after/ the struct-hack field
19:38:51 <ais523\unfoog> which is one of the weirder mistakes to make in C that I've seen
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19:40:26 <ais523\unfoog> you put a length-0/length-1/length-MAXINT/length-nullstring array at the end of a struct
19:40:44 <ais523\unfoog> adding fields after that one is obviously not going to work very well
19:40:55 <ais523\unfoog> but "the struct hack" is the name for the technique
19:41:25 <ais523\unfoog> length-0 is GNU; length-MAXINT I don't believe anyone actually uses but it's been suggested that it fits the letter of the standard better than length-1
19:43:49 <elliott\unfoog> but yeah, gcc does not like too-big arrays on the stack.
19:45:05 <ais523\unfoog> /dev/stdin:2: error: size of array ‘foo’ is too large
19:46:32 <ais523\unfoog> yep, the error message looks a lot like they're specifically checking for implausibly large arrays
19:48:06 <Deewiant> $ echo 'int main(){int foo[1234567890123456789];}' | gcc -x c /dev/stdin && ./a.out # compiles and runs
19:49:23 <elliott\unfoog> Note to self: Undo all this VirtualBox shit and remove Qt once you're done with it.
19:49:24 <Deewiant> $ echo 'int main(){int foo[12345678901234567890];}' | gcc -x c /dev/stdin
19:49:24 <Deewiant> /dev/stdin: In function ‘main’:
19:49:24 <Deewiant> /dev/stdin:1:20: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned [enabled by default]
19:49:27 <Deewiant> /dev/stdin:1:1: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 [enabled by default]
19:49:31 <Deewiant> /dev/stdin:1:16: error: size of array ‘foo’ is too large
19:50:18 <ais523\unfoog> is there some sort of indication of warnings that appear even without -Wall nowadays?
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19:50:28 <elliott\unfoog> ais523\unfoog: it tells you what flag enables what warning nowadays
19:51:22 <elliott\unfoog> I wish you didn't have to login-cycle to get new groups
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19:59:33 <elliott> Hmm, annoying that syslinux doesn't do jsf.
20:03:22 <elliott> Wow, lilo is actually maintained now.
20:11:30 <oklopol> are you mistaking me for someone who occasionally says something that makes sense or what is this all about
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20:13:00 <oklopol> :/ you're making me doubt myself
20:13:50 <oklopol> i made the mostest weirdest food
20:15:03 <oklopol> there's stuff and then an egg on top that's almost coagulated but not quite and looks a bit like ghost vomit
20:16:11 <monqy> btw what does ghost vomit look like...
20:16:34 <oklopol> well have you ever seen an egg that's almost coagulated but not quite?
20:17:01 <monqy> apparently ghost vomit is a band name
20:17:26 <elliott> http://www.myspace.com/ghostvomitband
20:17:27 <elliott> http://www.myspace.com/ghostvomitmusic
20:17:30 <elliott> there are at least two band scalled ghost vomit
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20:17:56 <monqy> Metal / Psychedelic / Punk
20:18:04 <monqy> Genre: Ambient / Healing & EasyListening / Melodramatic Popular Song
20:31:51 <oklopol> i wonder if anyone ever comes up with a use for the internet
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20:35:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You're wrong btw <-- wrt what?
20:35:55 <elliott> Vorpal: wrt /usr/bin/env being a problem
20:35:56 <monqy> of what use are touches
20:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? Well seeing stuff like #!/usr/bin/env perl isn't all that uncommon
20:36:18 <oklopol> touching is very important
20:36:34 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly because perl is in /usr/local/bin on freebsd for example
20:36:37 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, and making it work does not at all rely on having a /usr/bin/env file
20:36:55 <Vorpal> I guess #!perl might work, no idea
20:37:03 <elliott> binfmt_misc -> add magic "#!/usr/bin/env"
20:37:07 <elliott> and magic "#! /usr/bin/env"
20:37:13 <elliott> write trivial program to read executable name after it, execute from path
20:37:28 <Vorpal> elliott, why didn't they do this for /bin/sh then btw in nixos?
20:37:37 <elliott> presumably they just didn't think of it
20:37:56 <elliott> Vorpal: although having a real /bin/sh is useful
20:37:59 <elliott> so you can do init=/bin/sh
20:38:12 <elliott> but you could just have that on the initramfs?
20:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott, #!/bin/bash is fairly common too
20:38:19 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but that's a bug
20:38:26 <elliott> actually /bin/sh is a bug too but ubiquitous, so
20:38:26 <Vorpal> elliott, not if the script is bash specific
20:38:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so what should it do instead
20:38:36 <elliott> #!/usr/bin/env bash is not a bug
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20:38:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I believe bash is in /usr/bin in debian/ubuntu
20:39:07 <elliott> I guess /bin/sh is OK because /usr might not exist yet
20:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well afaik /usr/bin/env is not handled on nixos
20:39:14 <Vorpal> arvid@dragon ~ $ file /bin/bash
20:39:14 <Vorpal> /bin/bash: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
20:39:18 <Vorpal> this is a ubuntu system
20:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a nixos bug
20:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, go suggest your solution to them
20:39:43 <elliott> nah, i'd prefer making my own thing instead, they suck
20:39:53 <Vorpal> elliott, because of the c++ thingy? yeah
20:40:14 <elliott> yes; also every other way in which it differs from kitten
20:40:34 <Vorpal> elliott, like actually being available today?
20:41:54 <elliott> I wonder how hard writing a binfmt is
20:42:00 <elliott> would be nice not to have to rely on binfmt_misc for it
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20:43:46 <pikhq> elliott: The *POSIX* way to do it is, of course, "command -v bash > /dev/null && bash <<_EOF [...] _EOF"
20:44:09 <elliott> what the fuck is "command"
20:44:17 <elliott> i've never used that in my life
20:44:22 <elliott> oh it's the opposite of builtin
20:44:41 <elliott> pikhq: anyway fuck that :p
20:45:33 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, you still haven't woken Gregor up. I'm disappointed.
20:48:14 <elliott> Oh my God I forgot how much unionfs/aufs drama there is.
20:48:23 <elliott> http://www.unionfs.org/ ;; this guy registered a domain literally just to tell people how much better aufs is.
21:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the difference in functionality=
21:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway unionfs is in vanilla isn't it?
21:02:10 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values
21:02:23 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I don't think so.
21:02:32 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, what is up with the \unfoog? I saw elliott having that a while ago
21:02:50 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I can use whatever nick I want :{
21:03:16 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, so is there a major nethack tournament atm?
21:04:04 <Vorpal> I just didn't remember what time of year it usually ran at
21:04:12 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, also how do clans even make sense for nethack?
21:04:55 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, so anyone ascended yet this year?
21:05:05 <Vorpal> (and when did it start)
21:05:31 <Vorpal> ah, quite hard to have ascended then already
21:05:31 <ais523\unfoog> [21:04] <oracle\devnull> The time remaining until the 2011 Tournament begins is '00-00-00:09-55-10'
21:05:44 <Vorpal> what a strange date format that is...
21:06:03 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: More importantly, what an odd bot prefi.
21:08:11 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, the oracle bot is not in #nethack, where is it?
21:08:15 <ais523\unfoog> wow, it feels weird to be making directories from a Perl script
21:08:32 <elliott> <ais523\unfoog> wow, it feels weird to be making directories from a Perl script
21:08:38 <ais523\unfoog> but moderately active in October and really active in November
21:08:51 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: basically, I'm trying to run a script I ran last year
21:09:11 <ais523\unfoog> but the input format is different, being a gmail account rather than a tarball containing a directory per student
21:09:21 <ais523\unfoog> so I'm doing it mathematician-style, and reducing it to a problem I've already solved ;)
21:09:49 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, well, it is last October today.
21:10:12 <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: yes, and the tournament lasts all November, in the wrong timezone
21:10:30 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, which one do they use?
21:10:50 <ais523\unfoog> whichever one makes it start in 9 hours 50 minutes
21:10:54 <Vorpal> anyway isn't US going back from DST like in a few weeks? Or did it do it a few weeks ago?
21:11:19 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, in which we discover that the tournament setup scripts only work on openBSD 4.8
21:11:24 <elliott> I feel like now is a good time to say: Fuck DST.
21:11:26 <ais523\unfoog> that would explain why there's such a high density of BSD servers there
21:11:28 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, ... ouch
21:11:43 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: 4.8 is pretty recent...
21:11:55 <elliott> they rewrote them a year ago and didn't make them portable?
21:11:58 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: apparently they were updated from last year, when they worked on 4.6 specifically
21:12:12 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: ...which was a year before 4.,8
21:12:16 <elliott> do they just fix them every year? :P
21:13:03 <ais523\unfoog> and just assume the correct answer is the least sensible one
21:13:34 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, I really want to see these scripts now. Are they public?
21:13:47 <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: no; the game modifications are, but the scripts aren't
21:13:54 <ais523\unfoog> I think just because krystal is too lazy to put them online
21:14:11 <Vorpal> also if it was me, I wouldn't want to put such a broken script online
21:14:28 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, what modifications are used btw? menucolour and so on I presume?
21:14:34 <elliott> http://nethack.devnull.net/bragging/index.php
21:14:37 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: pro web serving
21:15:11 <ais523\unfoog> it's been broken in various random ways for about three years now, not always consistent ones
21:15:22 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: it's showing phpbb3 source code
21:15:23 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, and he hasn't fixed it?
21:15:37 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, report the bug?
21:15:43 <elliott> AND ug.user_id = ' . $user->data['user_id'] . '
21:15:57 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: it's not SQL injection, because it's plain-text
21:16:12 <ais523\unfoog> even if it /looks/ like PHP, nothing's actually executing it
21:16:13 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you're implying they use parametrised queries in every case except this
21:16:13 <Deewiant> At least config.php is read-protected
21:16:24 <elliott> I was just commenting on the source it was showing :P
21:16:35 <ais523\unfoog> $l_total_user_s = ($total_users == 0) ? 'TOTAL_USERS_ZERO' : 'TOTAL_USERS_OTHER';
21:16:40 <Vorpal> actually that still looks unsafe
21:17:04 <elliott> because user_id will be integral
21:17:35 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on the source of $user->data
21:17:43 <Vorpal> I just hope it isn't straight from a cookie
21:18:08 <elliott> Pretty sure someone would have noticed an exploit THAT obvious.
21:18:24 <Vorpal> $user->session_begin();
21:18:47 <Vorpal> well, that would require analysing a lot of the stuff to figure that out
21:19:11 <ais523\unfoog> session data is typically not user-controllable, although it's hard to know
21:19:32 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, you would have to check every point it was accessed in the system to figure it out
21:19:57 <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: your ability to randomly make obvious comments in IRC as if they were profound is not a particularly useful one
21:20:10 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, very true.
21:20:44 <Vorpal> ais523\unfoog, I actually didn't intend doing that
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21:53:07 <ais523\unfoog> how's this for a CSV file: 2B!$8B!$7B!$9B!$3B!$4B!$5B!$6
21:53:32 <ais523\unfoog> at least nobody submitted a PDF of the lecture notes this time
21:57:53 <ais523\unfoog> well, maybe they did, my script probably wouldn't have tried to parse it
21:58:47 <ais523\unfoog> ## Message from Gmail Team <mail-noreply@google.com> has unrecognised subject 'Customize Gmail with colors and themes'
21:59:01 <ais523\unfoog> at least my script's spam filter is working decently
21:59:59 <elliott> Dammit, I think I'm going to have to write a parser.
22:00:13 <elliott> Someone write my parser for me.
22:00:43 <ais523\unfoog> this entire compiler is going to suck, as Anarchy is the only sensible language to write it in and I have to bootstrap somehow
22:01:08 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:38 <elliott> "One day in September of 2011 — though I'm not sure precisely which one — marked Befunge-93's 18th birthday. That means that Befunge is now old enough to drink in its native land of Canada. To celebrate this, I thought I'd get Befunge-93 drunk to see what would happen."
22:01:45 -!- Nihilist_ has quit (Quit: http://haskell.org).
22:02:10 <elliott> yep; he has a new esolang out
22:02:10 <ais523\unfoog> it doesn't actually outright state that, nor does it logically imply that
22:02:46 <elliott> He should have more time in the day and more patience for dealing with idiots so he could come here again.
22:03:34 <elliott> haha, someone accidentally did part of atehwa's Underload assignment in ():^
22:04:02 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: shouldn't that be "oerjan: be proud"? he did the reduction
22:04:10 <Deewiant> The esolang in question: http://catseye.tc/projects/flobnar/
22:04:23 <elliott> Deewiant: I assumed anyone even vaguely interested would be able to find out
22:04:50 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: http://catseye.tc/projects/falderal/
22:04:53 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd rather make it easy for people when there's almost no additional effort on my part involved :-P
22:05:56 <elliott> Deewiant: oh wow, it keeps funge-98 style bounding boxes
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22:06:41 <elliott> Not sure I like the built-in orientation of things like /
22:07:44 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove
22:08:25 <elliott> Flobnar is prettier than Befunge-93, visually.
22:09:56 <ais523\unfoog> ah right, it isn't just a spec, but a literate test suite
22:10:14 <elliott> The spec is http://catseye.tc/projects/flobnar/src/Flobnar.hs :P
22:13:03 <ais523\unfoog> Flobnar is strict, right? It doesn't actually say that, but it implies it, and it's really relevant with the number of side-effects going on
22:13:33 <elliott> "The `/` term evaluates whatever is to the north of it (and we call that
22:13:33 <elliott> It evaluates to the quotient of dividing /a/ by /b/."
22:13:55 <elliott> "The `/` term evaluates whatever is to the north of it (and we call that
22:13:55 <elliott> /a/), then evaluates whatever is to the south of it (and we call that /b/).
22:13:55 <elliott> It evaluates to the quotient of dividing /a/ by /b/.
22:16:44 <ais523\unfoog> oh, apparently Emacs understands the encoding on that "CSV" file as really mapping B!$ to ,
22:17:10 <elliott> ask emacs what encoding it is
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22:18:10 <elliott> hmm, dunno about that but ok
22:19:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:19:15 <ais523\unfoog> also, bleh, why does Emacs not recognise utf-9 as a valid coding system name?
22:19:56 <ais523\unfoog> also, I finally figured out what the command to save a file in a different encoding is: set-buffer-file-coding-system
22:20:02 <ais523\unfoog> I'd always been accessing it via the menus up to now
22:21:39 <ais523\unfoog> oh, and apparently it's C-x RET f, which is even better than trying to type the name
22:23:57 <ais523\unfoog> also, has a different meaning in regex and wildmat, and both would match the set of files I wanted (in the case of a regex, if properly anchored)
22:24:48 <elliott> Maaaan, it is ridiculous how much I do not want to write a parser.
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22:26:19 <elliott> http://nixos.org/patchelf.html
22:27:35 <elliott> it had to be written in C++ didn't it
22:27:45 <elliott> I hate you, Nix guys, hate you
22:28:55 <ais523\unfoog> what insane situation are you in that makes you want to change those paths on ELF files?
22:30:45 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: a situation in which the RPATH of a proprietary executable is broken
22:31:04 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, it's not
22:31:15 <elliott> or: when the ELF interpreter path of a proprietary executable is broken
22:31:27 <monqy> propritary executables? whats that
22:31:36 <ais523\unfoog> surely such things should have standardised values, as it makes no sense to do it otherwise?
22:31:49 <ais523\unfoog> monqy: binaries that you can't recompile for legal or technical reasons, and also that you didn't write
22:32:00 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what if your libraries aren't in /lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib?
22:32:14 <elliott> in NixOS, they're in /nix/store/sd8fusd9f35890uefd0wj90-libfoo-3.0/lib
22:32:22 <elliott> and /nix/store/sdf09usdf0q934uasdn-libbar-495/lib
22:32:32 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: because that breaks all the key properties of Nix?
22:32:59 <ais523\unfoog> "Chromium's New Tab page has been remodeled. Switch between sections by clicking these labels. Chrome will remember your preference for next time. _Learn more_"
22:33:43 <ais523\unfoog> wow, a) why are they constantly changing the interface for no good reason, it's as bad as firefox, b) I don't care about either the new or old version, c) why does the mouse form a text selection cursor when I move the mouse pointer over the popup yet I can't select the text to copy-and-paste it so I had to retype all that?
22:34:04 <elliott> (b) sounds more like your problem than Chromium's
22:34:21 <monqy> i wish my new tab page could be blank
22:34:24 <elliott> I mean, unless you think a UI update should be completely silent and not offer any kind of help at all to confuse people as much as possible
22:34:29 <monqy> fancy new tab pages make me sad
22:34:46 <monqy> I also wish I could control autocomplete
22:34:57 <pikhq> a) is because the browser devs seem to think that change is good, even when it's just change for the sake of change.
22:35:13 <ais523\unfoog> also, why is gmail telling me about changes to Google Buzz when this is a single-use account that hasn't used it ever?
22:35:24 <elliott> changes = it's being shut down
22:35:39 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: I think it's hilarious that Microsoft copies OS X and Linux even when they're full of bad rather than good ideas
22:36:00 <ais523\unfoog> (not actually more than vaguely related, but I'm in a non sequitur sort of mood)
22:36:37 <ais523\unfoog> also, why does Chromium switch to a new tab when I control-click it?
22:36:43 <ais523\unfoog> that completely defeats half the point of control-clicking
22:37:38 <elliott> You're doing something wrong
22:37:39 <ais523\unfoog> I use control-click rather than middle click normally as middle-clicking is awkward on a touchpad
22:37:55 <elliott> What did you middle-click, and everyone knows
22:38:09 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: the linked subject of an email message, to open the message
22:41:48 <ais523\unfoog> "Be a master of efficiency. Combine the unread, important and starred inboxes. Power through what's important."
22:42:21 <ais523\unfoog> I thought they got their search lead in the first place by /not/ randomly annoying people
22:43:39 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Are you just going to complain about Gmail minutiae for hours?
22:44:29 <ais523\unfoog> I think I know how Wooble feels constantly at the moment
22:44:37 <elliott> Hmm, does anyone know how to modify a process' environment variables?
22:44:55 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: processes don't have environment variables as a constant thing
22:45:07 <ais523\unfoog> rather, they're passed environment variables as a (possibly hidden) argument to main
22:45:15 <ais523\unfoog> via the execve syscall, which takes the environment as an argument
22:45:17 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: yes they do: see putenv
22:45:22 <ais523\unfoog> libc handles the illusion of a consistent environment
22:45:30 <ais523\unfoog> all putenv is doing is changing a variable inside the libc
22:45:38 <elliott> Well, OK, here's a different question:
22:45:39 <ais523\unfoog> which remembers the environment for if you call a wrapper like execl
22:45:50 <elliott> Does anyone know how to modify the libc's idea of environment variables of a process behind its back?
22:46:12 <ais523\unfoog> the variable is normally exposed as "environ", IIRC
22:46:29 <ais523\unfoog> that's a bit like asking "does anyone know how to modify main's idea of argv behind its back?"
22:46:46 <elliott> I'm not expecting it to be clean
22:46:46 <ais523\unfoog> which is also a valid and moderately sensible question, but I don't know the answer
22:47:01 <ais523\unfoog> you'd basically have to do the equivalent of attaching a debugger
22:47:15 <elliott> ok, so I'll have to either tweak or rewrite cunionfs at the very least...
22:47:28 <elliott> new question: what per-process namespaces does linux offer?
22:47:33 <elliott> (general use of the word namespace, not the linux meaning)
22:47:40 <elliott> environment variables are one
22:47:47 <elliott> /proc is another, in a way
22:48:01 <elliott> but I don't know if you can create files under /proc/<pid>
22:48:06 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: that other things can modify :)
22:48:19 <ais523\unfoog> you might want to look at the docs for the clone(2) system call
22:48:20 <elliott> the usecase is: cunionfs reads the list of directories to union from an environment variable
22:48:31 <ais523\unfoog> they explain a lot about what can optionally be shared between processes
22:48:35 <elliott> so you can start a process seeing a different union set by passing an environment variable
22:48:41 <elliott> but I want to modify the union /after/ a process starts
22:48:51 <elliott> so I need a mutable-from-outside per-process data store
22:49:33 <ais523\unfoog> open unlinked fd, and writing to it via /proc, is probably the least insane method
22:49:45 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: that's more insane than just using files
22:49:55 <elliott> i.e. /run/magicunion/<pid>
22:51:04 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but files are kind of ugly, since they're not tied to the lifetime of the process, etc. :)
22:51:38 <elliott> that also might be suboptimal because it forces a syscall per file access in the union
22:51:50 <elliott> but I guess that's inevitable if it's going to be mutable
22:52:03 <elliott> at the very least you'd need a syscall to figure out whether the union changed
22:52:16 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: that's why unlinked file; that is tied to the lifetime of the process
22:52:41 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: it has to work with every process
22:52:54 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I can't force everybody to open an fd before calling exec() after fork()...
22:53:46 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I'm probably OK if I need to write a kernel module for this, if that'll allow me to create e.g. /proc/<pid>/union
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22:54:14 <ais523\unfoog> what are you trying to do, in as in why do you want to do the why do you want to do this?
22:54:23 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: "in as in"?
22:54:35 <ais523\unfoog> and being willing to write a kernel module just to make it work makes it sound vaguely important
22:55:45 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, I'm working on Kitten, and have a Nix-style purely functional directory-per-package store, which needs to be aggregated into a single file tree so that you only have to add one directory to your path rather than five hundred; Nix does this by statically generating a tree of symlinks
22:55:55 <elliott> but doing it as a unionfs seems cleaner to me
22:56:10 <elliott> but if you e.g. install a package, then all your running processes have to be updated to see it in the tree
22:56:18 <elliott> = mutating the set of union branches
22:56:36 <ais523\unfoog> perhaps it'd make more sense for the fs to handle all that by itself?
22:56:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: anyway, I /explicitly/ want it to be per-process
22:57:02 <elliott> because that lets me do cool things
22:57:10 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: cunionfs /does/ know about processes
22:57:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but, like I said, does it through environment variables
22:57:30 <elliott> I'm asking, how should my unionfs read the union set so I canm utate it?
22:58:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: installing a package, removing a package
22:58:27 -!- Darth_Cliche has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.).
22:58:28 <ais523\unfoog> and it'd change it for all executables provided by that package?
22:58:31 <elliott> installing a package has to add /.../sduf89sdfu98f98-firefox-348978947234 to the union
22:58:38 <elliott> so that /.../sduf89sdfu98f98-firefox-348978947234/bin becomes part of /union/path/bin
22:58:51 <elliott> removing it has to remove it
22:58:56 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, it'd do it for all running executables
22:59:01 <ais523\unfoog> what bonuses do you get for this being per-process?
22:59:33 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: [~/really-old-program]$ with 'gcc == 3.*' ./configure
23:00:01 <ais523\unfoog> but, hmm, /that/ setting won't change with package changes
23:00:14 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: yes, I lied a bit: it'd mutate everything set to "defaults"
23:00:25 <elliott> maybe I could have a specific "default" branch setting
23:00:27 <ais523\unfoog> so it might be possible to have two layers, a system-wide one that can change during process lifetime, and a per-process one that's fixed throughout the whole lifetime?
23:00:33 <elliott> and that would cause the unionfs to look up what the current defaults are
23:00:46 <elliott> then there'd be no mutation necessary
23:01:01 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: thanks, this might help :P
23:01:02 <ais523\unfoog> bleh, my computer's so unresponsive when it's simultaneously running four O(n^3) CPU-bound algos
23:01:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you might want to set the priorities of X, your WM and your panel to realtime
23:02:03 <ais523\unfoog> besides, this lets me know when the programs have finished
23:02:17 <ais523\unfoog> and using RT prios on programs not obviously designed for them's always a bit risky
23:03:00 <ais523\unfoog> (Linux has been changed so that no longer hard-locks the entire system, right?)
23:03:27 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, isochronous would be better than RT, but I doubt you're running BFS
23:08:49 <elliott> kmc: Oh man, that GHC bug you found will actually affect some code I'm writing :-|
23:10:07 <elliott> Depends what you mean by trivial.
23:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover: NEW HUMBLE BUNDLE
23:10:33 <elliott> IT'LL ONLY BE AVAILABLE FOR THREE SECONDS
23:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. 3 seconds and 13 days
23:11:05 <elliott> "Voxatron is an arcade/adventure game set in an entirely destructible world made out of voxels (little cubes, kind of)."
23:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, given that the 3rd was kind of crap, and the second has a game I wanted but couldn't play and another, admittedly good game, I'll pass.
23:11:09 <Vorpal> I'm looking at what the game is atm
23:11:11 <elliott> THIS SOUNDS FAMILIAR....................
23:11:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I just thought I ought to inform you
23:11:36 <elliott> No wait this loosk super cool.
23:11:39 <elliott> Does this have multiplayer?
23:11:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If this has multiplayery ou have to get it.
23:11:59 <Vorpal> elliott, he has an intel cardboard box.
23:12:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, it's a retro-styled voxel game.
23:12:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and yeah it sucks that the games didn't work for you
23:12:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I can assure you most of them were awesome
23:12:53 <elliott> OK so this is just... one game.
23:14:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to pay like 0.1€ more than the current average. Just in case.
23:14:25 <elliott> Vorpal: There's references to previews of this game from 300 days ago.
23:14:37 <Vorpal> elliott, reminds of some game
23:14:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Also you can increase what you're payingl ater.
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23:15:29 <Vorpal> can't quite remember the name.... something-craft.... quarrycraft?
23:15:51 <elliott> <elliott> "Voxatron is an arcade/adventure game set in an entirely destructible world made out of voxels (little cubes, kind of)."
23:15:51 <elliott> <elliott> And it's an alpha.
23:15:51 <elliott> <elliott> THIS SOUNDS FAMILIAR....................
23:15:52 <Vorpal> elliott, this looks like a 3D editor to me: http://www.lexaloffle.com/gfx/ssvox6.png
23:15:55 <elliott> Beat you to it; also funnier.
23:16:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yes right, but I meant the alpha thingy
23:16:05 <elliott> Vorpal: That's because that's what it is.
23:16:28 <elliott> Also object editor, it looks like.
23:16:46 <Vorpal> I'm curently limited due to small monitor, I'll bring this up on my desktop once I rebooted it.
23:18:53 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder if I can separate things into two types of options to make the DSL route work...
23:20:40 <Vorpal> will go for a small sum for the start
23:21:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the "do whatever the verb of google plus is" in that video. What is the verb?
23:22:54 <elliott> NPROCS=$(cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep processor | awk '{a++} END {print a}') \
23:24:12 <elliott> make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1"
23:24:17 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what does ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR even do?
23:24:47 <ais523\unfoog> it names the directory of the global places that hold directories for all sorts of programs, that is specific to INTERCAL
23:25:26 <elliott> what is it by default, then?
23:25:40 <Vorpal> huh, 64-bit deb, but just one .tar.gz, I wonder if it is 32-bit or 64-bit
23:25:50 <ais523\unfoog> because manually patching the makefile is annoying
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23:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, aiee the resolution options of this game sucks
23:29:12 <Vorpal> it can do native + 800x600 + some weird even smaller ones
23:29:23 <Vorpal> so it is either full screen or tiny window for me
23:29:52 <elliott> Vorpal: just run it in gdb :P
23:30:01 <Vorpal> elliott, this is the list of resolutions: 1680x1050, 840x525 (wtf?), 800x600, 800x480
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23:31:52 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe it just upscales beyond that to keep the retro aesthetics
23:31:56 <elliott> you could use compiz zoom :p
23:32:04 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy now is a function of whether you go berserk or not.
23:32:06 <HackEgo> 704) <Phantom_Hoover> Life expectancy now is a function of whether you go berserk or not.
23:34:37 <Vorpal> well, their live chat works okay
23:36:22 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: how crazy does this sound: constantly run a daemon that uses inotify to incrementally backup every change to every file (reverse binary diff snapshotting, etc.)
23:36:52 <elliott> well, every file apart from /run and /tmp and the like :)
23:37:04 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: better to make it an OS feature rather than trying to userland it, I think
23:37:28 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I can implement this faster than I can implement @
23:38:27 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, Kitten's so I don't give up on computers and become an anarcho-primitivist before @ comes out
23:39:00 <elliott> no, everything else is just that broken :)
23:39:27 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: anyway, a perfectionist would never create a linux distro...
23:39:53 <elliott> hmm, I think nilfs actually does what I want
23:39:58 <augur> elliott: mind reading something?
23:40:01 <elliott> "NILFS creates a number of checkpoints every few seconds or per synchronous write basis (unless there is no change). Users can select significant versions among continuously created checkpoints, and can change them into snapshots which will be preserved until they are changed back to checkpoints."
23:40:11 <elliott> and you can mount snapshots
23:40:21 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/Draft2.pdf up to but not including section 3
23:40:28 <augur> prose might be choppy
23:40:44 <elliott> this is going to be boring isn't it :'(
23:41:16 <elliott> "Most dogs love Alpo, and most cats love Whiskas"
23:42:58 <evincar> If you wanted to statically type a Forth-like language, what would be the type of a word with multiple possible stack effects? Say, something that turns an "End"-delimited series of values into a list.
23:43:33 <evincar> I guess that's not the best example, because you could call it A End B -> A [B] or whatever.
23:44:15 <elliott> words with dynamic stack effects are simply not allwoed
23:44:23 <elliott> you could do some kind of ad-hoc overloading a la typeclasses, but that's not the same thing
23:44:50 <elliott> "For those readers who are unfamiliar with American pet products, Alpo
23:44:50 <elliott> and Whiskas are brands of dog food and cat food, respectively."
23:44:53 <elliott> augur: whiskas is uk too at least
23:45:02 <augur> elliott: i know both are in finland as well
23:45:10 <elliott> augur: anyway has nobody really investigated this before
23:45:10 <augur> but ive had some people complain they didnt know wtf i was talking about
23:45:17 <elliott> item one on my why is language so fucked up project
23:45:22 -!- ais523\unfoog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:45:28 <augur> maybe five people have, but the explanations are shit
23:45:56 <elliott> augur: your field is fucked >:(
23:46:11 <augur> elliott: theres lots of other stuff that people are concerned with
23:46:14 <evincar> elliott: Thanks...that's generally what I was thinking, but it seems a rather arbitrary limitation. :/
23:46:26 <augur> a lot of current research, for instance, is interested in quantificational properties
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23:46:46 <elliott> evincar: some kind of thing restricting how values can be combined to eliminate a large class of bad programs while rejecting some good ones by necessity...
23:46:54 <evincar> It seems like a failing of the type system though.
23:47:04 <evincar> That you can't denote the type of an arbitrary stack effect.
23:47:19 <evincar> But then you'd end up with dependent typing for no reason?
23:47:28 <elliott> augur: these diagrams are so boring
23:47:37 <augur> elliott: the trees? i know.
23:47:44 <augur> they're all the same!
23:47:45 <elliott> can't you just write them inline
23:48:06 <augur> er.. there is notation for that, but it's not as easy to read
23:48:08 <elliott> augur: "In view of the fourt property," typo
23:48:14 <augur> yeah ive fixed that locally
23:48:24 <elliott> "In (41) and (??)," ?? isn't a number hth
23:48:54 <augur> yes, the finnish examples have yet to be added
23:49:04 <augur> so \ref{} is pointing to nothing
23:49:15 <augur> its not complete, that part
23:50:09 <elliott> can you actually cite random people on irc for this
23:50:52 <augur> you never cite your informants
23:51:17 <elliott> wow so i can just write a paper full of shit
23:51:49 <elliott> "He will eat a hamburger and her a hotdog"
23:51:53 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: maybe it just upscales beyond that to keep the retro aesthetics <-- no it doesn't
23:51:54 <elliott> augur: i can confirm this is 101% idiomatic
23:52:27 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can do it manually: ~/.lexaloffle/Voxatron/config.txt
23:52:27 <augur> im not sure what you mean by "101% idiomatic"
23:52:29 <elliott> it gets more idiomatic the more i look at it. trust me. native english speaker. you wouldn't understand.
23:52:34 <augur> perhaps you mean colloquial?
23:52:34 <Vorpal> elliott, editing that by hand works
23:52:42 <elliott> augur: no I mean it is totally correct.
23:52:46 <elliott> i am the most serious linguist
23:53:06 <augur> idiomatic does not mean correct :|
23:53:09 <evincar> It's true, actually. "Her" basically stands for "as for her". :P
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23:53:24 <augur> idiomatic means that the meaning isn't obviously connected to the words
23:53:26 <augur> like "kick the bucket"
23:53:30 <elliott> no it's not true evincar i was bullshitting
23:53:43 <evincar> elliott: I was aware you were bullshitting and was contradicting you.
23:53:51 <augur> evincar: also, "her" definitely doesnt stand for "as for her" there
23:53:56 <elliott> "He will eat a hamburger and she a hotdog" = makes sense
23:53:58 <elliott> "He will eat a hamburger and her a hotdog" = doesn't
23:54:05 <evincar> Unless you weren't actually bullshitting and just pretending not to be bullshitting.
23:54:18 <augur> elliott: makes sense in what way
23:54:21 <elliott> although the former looks kinda wrong too ~SEMANTIC SATIATION~
23:54:27 <elliott> augur: well i parse it about ten times easier :P
23:54:32 <elliott> isn't the former meant to be the correct one
23:54:35 <evincar> If most native speakers can correctly infer the meaning of a phrase, it's correct as far as I'm concerned.
23:54:41 <elliott> augur: ask a native lojban speaker next
23:54:43 <augur> elliott: "meant to be" no
23:54:57 <augur> subject case in english is a mess
23:55:01 <augur> its extremely variable
23:55:04 <evincar> Case inflection is so five centuries ago.
23:55:06 <elliott> in the context of the paper
23:55:08 <augur> there are people who insist that it must be "she"
23:55:15 <augur> but thats irrelevant
23:55:24 <elliott> the latter is definitely super hard tor ead
23:55:25 <augur> in the paper, no, neither is "more correct"
23:55:43 <elliott> augur: i'm not going prescriptivist on you I just assumed everyone would find the latter one wrong :P
23:55:55 <augur> elliott: oh, no, everyone i talk to prefers the latter one
23:56:05 <elliott> well they both look wrong to me
23:56:05 <augur> but thats just case shit
23:56:08 <elliott> so i guess i'm just ruined
23:56:24 <evincar> I celebrate my minor victory by mounting my platypus.
23:56:24 <augur> yeah its plausible that pronominals would be harder to get
23:56:36 <augur> elliott: you might also want some discourse context to ameliorate it
23:56:50 <elliott> augur: wow i want to punch you for that sentence
23:58:51 <evincar> I'm pretty sure all punches, however hypothetical, are personal. :P
23:59:26 <augur> elliott: well you can try. you might hurt yourself tho D:
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