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03:06:28 <TeruFSX> so i started writing an interpreter for a language but as i did so
03:06:44 <TeruFSX> i discovered the designer apparently had not been thinking at all
03:07:00 <TeruFSX> it was supposed to be esoteric but it was just bad
03:07:55 <monqy> that's most esolangs
03:09:10 <TeruFSX> the better ones seem to be legitimately interesting though
03:40:19 <NihilistDandy> cheater_: http://leib.be/sascha/the-nil-programming-language/
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03:55:44 <Sgeo> Please kill me now.
03:55:57 <Sgeo> I am trying to tutor some idiot who was asking for homework help on Freenode.
03:56:24 * shachaf wonders whether secretly monqy = elliott.
03:56:33 <Gregor> Sgeo: Don't say that in #irp, you may not like the result.
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04:07:18 <Sgeo> Me: "Do you see any way to do an action for every edge that the vertex has?"
04:07:26 <Sgeo> Me: "Those sort of things often have names ending with do: or Do:"
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04:38:17 <augur> do you speak finnish?
04:38:22 <shachaf> I don't speak the Finnish, though. :-(
04:39:56 <PiRSquared> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
04:42:32 <augur> shachaf's no fluid, thats for sure!
04:42:47 <shachaf> I feel like I was just insulted.
04:42:55 <shachaf> I'm not sure I can figure out how, though.
04:51:09 <Gregor> shachaf is a Finn who knows neither Finnish nor Swedish ... and isn't a fluid, which may or may not be a bad thing.
04:51:55 <shachaf> My Finnish passport is being shipped today/tomorrow.
04:52:31 <Gregor> What, does Finnish citizenship come free with purchase of Finn-O's cereal?
04:54:01 <Gregor> I have nothing further to add *shrugs*
04:55:00 <shachaf> Gregor: I was also drafted.
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04:55:30 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=TwoDucks&diff=prev&oldid=30309 opinions on this edit? TwoDucks' computational class /isn't/ known
04:55:42 <elliott> the problem is that we use TC to mean Turing-equivalent
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04:55:50 <elliott> and so many TC languages shouldn't have the category
04:56:03 <shachaf> THE ALAN DIPERT was in here, you know. Did you talk?
04:58:03 <shachaf> Since you started your search.
05:01:54 <Gregor> elliott: For a problem to be X-complete, it must be both X-hard and in X. If "Turing" is a computational class (all those things that can be computed on a Turing machine), then TwoDucks is certainly /not/ Turing-complete. It is only Turing-hard.
05:02:12 <Gregor> That being said, "Turing" isn't a computational class, and our use of the term "TC" is something of an esocommunity invention :)
05:03:38 <elliott> Gregor: I very much doubt our use of TC was invented by us, considering I hear it everywhere.
05:03:51 <elliott> e.g. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete
05:04:01 <elliott> And people saying "lol every language is same because all TC"
05:04:30 <elliott> Gregor: But yeah, I'm thinking about renaming [[Category:Turing complete]] to [[Category:Turing equivalent]]...
05:04:45 <elliott> ISTR one of our other computational class categories is technically inaccurate too.
05:05:13 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Computational_class Hm, perhaps not
05:07:55 <elliott> Oh, this was discussed in the logs.
05:47:18 <quintopia> turing-computable is totally a computational class.
05:47:38 <quintopia> and turing-hard is totally well-defined
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06:00:05 <elliott> quintopia: Who said anything about Turing-computable?
06:00:47 <quintopia> gregor said "if 'Turing' is a computational class"
06:01:18 <quintopia> but the terms "Turing-hard" and "Turing-complete" are derived from the class Turing-computable
06:03:03 <elliott> Someone come up with a better subtitle for Esolang.
06:03:17 <elliott> I want to expurgate the existing one.
06:04:45 <quintopia> you wish you lived near this guy http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1329881702774.jpg
06:12:52 <monqy> is the subtitle even visible anywhere
06:14:29 <monqy> if title bar means what I think it means, it's not there
06:16:14 <Deewiant> <!-- subtitle --> <div id="contentSub"></div> <!-- /subtitle -->
06:16:55 <monqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle is the only place i can find it
06:18:28 <monqy> quirky in a bad way I dislike lots
06:18:30 <elliott> Deewiant: It's visible in e.g. Whatever Blue
06:18:54 <Deewiant> I'm guessing that's a different theme
06:18:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=cologneblue
06:19:13 <monqy> yikes, cologne blue
06:20:57 <monqy> site subtitle: hello
06:22:56 <monqy> it's better than weirder than you
06:29:20 <elliott> does anyone know a unicode character that looks like
06:29:27 <elliott> except it's one line splitting into two as it goes right
06:30:07 <elliott> it can be more than one line it splits into, too
06:30:14 <elliott> basically something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg
06:30:42 <shachaf> You want a code point for the USB logo?
06:31:12 <shachaf> That one looks a lot like < to me.
06:31:46 <elliott> shachaf: I can't even see that.
06:31:57 <elliott> But it looks good on fileformat.info.
06:32:44 * shachaf isn't really sure what elliott is after.
06:34:33 <elliott> Something that looks like that svg. :(
06:35:20 <shachaf> I don't get what you want.
06:35:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg
06:35:45 <shachaf> Complete with the top line being an arrow?
06:36:03 <shachaf> And three things going out from the left?
06:36:14 <elliott> No, just something that vaguely evokes the same thing as that.
06:36:21 <shachaf> That thing evokes frustration in me.
06:48:42 <itidus20> ahh i don't seem to have that symbol
06:49:16 <itidus20> i usually try ms pmincho to look at such
06:56:20 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR YOU PEOPLE
07:02:08 <itidus20> hmm i see signifigant contributions by graue and smjg.. they should be proud of the esolangs.org
07:12:01 <Sgeo> kallisti, elliott dateup
07:12:33 <monqy> sgeo welcomes elliott back to #esoteric
07:32:45 <shachaf> elliott hath abandoned His creation and returned to that of another.
07:35:00 <kallisti> elliott: did you know that you can write Haskell programs that actually DO things?
07:35:34 <monqy> "welcome back to #esoteric" - #esoteric
07:36:17 <shachaf> Haskell programs don't do things. Things do things.
07:39:37 <elliott> kallisti: I can't write Haskell.
07:45:15 * Sgeo has been reading about Common Lisp
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08:17:53 <mRoman> elliott: What did you do?
08:19:05 <mRoman> Your last conttributions were 2008.
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08:22:03 <elliott> mRoman: Oh, I'm [[User:ehird]].
08:22:14 <elliott> I have a handful accounts for confusing historical reasons.
08:22:19 <elliott> (Namely I kept forgetting they existed.)
08:23:03 <mRoman> Is there a category for object-oriented esolangs?
08:23:27 <elliott> Yes, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Object-oriented_paradigm
08:23:43 <elliott> (The main categories are listed hierarchically at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization.)
08:25:53 <elliott> I like the look of the 99 bottles of beer program in Stlang, by the way.
08:27:31 <Sgeo> Stack based hardly sounds esoteric to me >.>
08:28:06 <mRoman> Sgeo: How's stack-based AND oop?
08:29:16 <Sgeo> Is Factor considered esoteric?
08:29:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Similarly, since C is a non-esoteric imperative language, brainfuck is not esoteric.
08:29:51 <mRoman> I'd consider APL as an esoteric language, but it's not classified as such.
08:31:43 <elliott> APL is too practically-oriented to count as esoteric, I think. It would be nice if we had words to distinguish the "oddity" aspect from the "non-serious" aspect.
08:32:52 <mRoman> I actually can construct the diamond problem in Stlang
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08:48:04 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/LfHW ;; running queries directly on the database: bestest thing ever
08:49:47 <shachaf> elliott: I got this really great behavior where CapsLock both sends Esc *and* toggles lock.
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08:50:30 <shachaf> And xfce4-settings-helper and gnome-settings-daemon were running at the same time, as well as a script running xmodmap every second.
08:51:13 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/lbOQGID7 <- without overriding it's no problem (of course)
08:51:15 <shachaf> Can I make things any worse?
08:51:21 <olsner> three things applying settings simultaneously, a recipy for bestness
08:51:29 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/Fbgbt35l <- if everybody overrides everybody the last one wins.
08:52:28 <mRoman> and the classic diamond problem: The last one wins too.
08:53:49 <mRoman> If D inherits from A, I'd call it the cyclic diamond problem :D
08:59:19 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/hG4cCjJT <- like that
08:59:41 <mRoman> inherit B C should be inherit B A
09:00:00 <mRoman> but that doesn't change anything anyway.
09:05:51 <elliott> I can safely say that multiple inheritance is esoteric.
09:46:07 <elliott> new language! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hollow
09:51:49 <mRoman> circular inheritance is way cooler.
10:08:24 <elliott> @tell fizzie Also: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid
10:19:58 <fizzie> Oh no there's a flux inversion in the parsoid cascade unit.
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11:11:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | Best for direct log access , See httP://64.62.173.65/%49%27/.%2E/lo%67s/_esoteri%63/#THIS_IS_NOT_A_SCAM | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
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11:25:47 <elliott> oerjan: enjoy recent changes again :P
11:29:58 <oerjan> (1) regarding the subtitle, how did you _not_ consider the matrix there.
11:30:49 <oerjan> (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete
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11:31:50 <elliott> 121 reddit comments about oleg and call/cc
11:31:55 <elliott> I predict 3 of them will be interesting or worthwhile.
11:32:19 <fizzie> Is it because of the sum of distinct digits of 121 is 3?
11:32:23 <elliott> oerjan: (1) THAT'S NOT PROFESSIONAL
11:32:34 <elliott> (2) How many pages would actually have that cat?
11:33:06 <oerjan> TwoDucks, Brainhype, Banana Scheme come to mind
11:33:37 <elliott> oerjan: ok, better question: how many articles in [[Category:Uncomputable]] /won't/ have it
11:33:57 <ais523> which category is under discussion?
11:34:11 <elliott> ais523: <oerjan> (2) maybe Category:Turing hard should be made a supercategory of Turing complete
11:34:16 <elliott> re the TwoDucks cat change
11:34:22 <ais523> also, whoa, 46 changes in my RSS feed and they aren't spam?
11:34:41 <ais523> uncomputable languages that aren't TH seem vaguely pointless
11:34:47 <ais523> although, admittedly, so does most of the stuff on the wiki
11:35:24 <elliott> ais523: even more surprising: many of them are Graue's
11:35:35 <oerjan> well Gravity hasn't been proved TH, has it?
11:35:36 <elliott> admittedly, most of them are still mine :)
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11:36:06 <elliott> ais523: hmm, only 46? there have been over 50 changes today
11:36:19 <ais523> wow, <s>=</s> looks bizarre in my feed reader's font
11:36:36 <ais523> and it's using Atom, I just think of it as RSS because it does basically the same thing, and the user-visible differences aren't visible enough
11:36:39 <oerjan> it's like relieving Graue of the stress of administration made him start to contribute again.
11:37:54 <elliott> oerjan: well he did say he's become more interested in esolangs now. but for there to be any stress related to the wiki's administration he'd have had to do something other than ignore it ;)
11:38:13 <oerjan> PROCRASTINATION CAN BE HIGHLY STRESSFUL
11:38:25 <oerjan> just ask an expert, i.e. me.
11:38:33 <elliott> oerjan: procrastination is not the same thing as being too busy to do something
11:39:10 <elliott> oerjan: I see you upgraded to IE 9.
11:40:26 <elliott> hmm, I'm not convinced Gravity is TH
11:41:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm also not convinced it isn't
11:41:19 <ais523> could be kind-of hard to work out
11:41:45 <elliott> oerjan: oh, I see your IP now ;D
11:42:00 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
11:42:55 <oerjan> hm it looks like Gravity is the only dubiously TH in Uncomputable
11:43:12 <elliott> Someone just came in from *facebook*.
11:44:09 <fizzie> Fortunately nobody could concievably connect pc112.ics.hut.fi with me. (There might be a proxy on the way, though.)
11:45:29 <elliott> sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]]
11:46:28 <ais523> ooh, we have special:linksearch now?
11:46:34 <ais523> I tried to use it on the old server, but it wasn't there
11:47:17 <oerjan> gah why the heck is Safalra disallowing the Web Archive?
11:48:04 <elliott> http://safalra.com/robots.txt looks like it's explicitly
11:48:23 <elliott> http://code.stephenmorley.org/robots.txt same on his new site
11:49:45 <elliott> oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently
11:50:08 <oerjan> <elliott> sheesh, nobody told me about [[Special:LinkSearch]] <-- yay! (assuming it's what i think it is)
11:50:47 <fizzie> oerjan: It's this golf course search tool.
11:50:50 <elliott> it lets you search for external links
11:51:09 <elliott> I was right about that reddit thread, by the way, especially as Quadrescence has a ton of comments in it.
11:51:41 <elliott> ais523: oerjan: hey, do we want <math> on the wiki?
11:51:46 <oerjan> elliott: the problem is it's the only site that would have the Gravity spec
11:52:04 <elliott> I would feel better about having to maintain PHP/MySQL software if it ran some OCaml too.
11:52:11 <oerjan> but he's removed the old file and not moved it to the new site (yet)
11:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: graue removed two links today pointing to his site too, since they were dead
11:52:24 <ais523> <math> is written in OCaml?
11:52:49 <elliott> ais523: it uses texvc, which is written in OCaml
11:53:17 <elliott> hmm, that means WikiMedia might be the largest deployer of OCaml software in the world :)
11:53:25 <elliott> *Wikimedia (how confusing...)
11:53:30 <ais523> I was about to correct that :)
11:54:06 <elliott> [[Ook!]] has spontaneously grown an esco infection
11:54:51 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: some people like to be able to remove content from their site permanently <-- when i become world dictator i'll make that punishable by death. retroactively.
11:55:02 <elliott> oerjan: http://code.stephenmorley.org/about-this-site/contact/
11:56:30 <ais523> oerjan: how can you kill someone retroactively?
11:57:11 <oerjan> ais523: i mean the time of the crime, not the punishment. unless i perfect my time machine first.
11:58:14 <oerjan> on the other hand outlawing time machines seems like a good policy for a world dictator.
12:00:15 <elliott> oerjan: ENJOYING YOUR RECENT CHANGES?
12:02:16 <oerjan> no, i am being stressed by nagging people.
12:02:40 <fizzie> Another future punishable-by-death offence?
12:02:58 <oerjan> elliott: wait, is there supposed to be some general change?
12:04:15 <oerjan> elliott: while there is a lot of content, i am not seeing any change particular to the recent changes _itself_
12:04:52 <oerjan> which makes me wonder why you are going on about it.
12:05:16 <oerjan> fizzie: no, nothing as pleasant as death.
12:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: good, because it hasn't changed
12:06:35 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just taunting you because of how many changes there are :P
12:09:08 <elliott> I note that my question REMAINS UNANSWERED.
12:09:47 <elliott> fizzie: That Grasp thing is very fancy.
12:10:51 <oerjan> <math> is good, i think.
12:11:42 <elliott> (I wondered about adding it because http://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial is very ugly.)
12:13:49 <elliott> ais523: wow, ClueBot NG on Wikipedia is apparently based entirely on a neural network
12:14:17 <ais523> "neural networks" in AI probably aren't much like the way you envisage them
12:14:33 <ais523> it's basically just a way of tweaking weightings of various factors
12:14:42 <ais523> it's not like it's parsing the individual words, or anything like that
12:15:35 <elliott> the description on the page just makes it sound like "we throw a neural network at the problem and it's solved" :P
12:15:58 <elliott> (the main bot page is more descriptive)
12:16:05 <oerjan> that's what the neural network _wants_ you to think.
12:16:10 <elliott> "C / C++ — The core is written in C/C++ from scratch."
12:20:25 <elliott> Need to get 107 MB of archives.
12:20:26 <elliott> After this operation, 212 MB of additional disk space will be used.
12:22:58 <elliott> oerjan: hm maybe i should integrate mathjax instead
12:23:39 <elliott> that would avoid the server overhead, and probably render nicer.
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12:30:29 <oerjan> a fine number, if the oddest of the primes
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12:31:10 <fizzie> elliott: I needs to clean it up some day; it was suggested to get rid of the somewhat silly "multi-field nodes" thing, and just go with an edge-labeled graph of simple nodes; I mostly agree, it'd be cleaner but essentially equivalent. Though I have some slight residual affection towards those things I drew.
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12:36:47 <elliott> fizzie: Aw, but they're so pretty.
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12:37:55 <fizzie> I also have a half-finished Grasp editor written in C# (using Gtk#, I think) that shows the structured nodes like that, sorta-autohiding empty bits and whatnot. Would be a shame to lose all that.
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12:44:11 <elliott> fizzie: C# is an... interesting chocie.
12:45:12 <fizzie> Yes, I think I was having some sort of a thing.
12:46:35 * oerjan notes that <code> inside wikitable looks a bit weird
12:47:13 <oerjan> because both change the background color
12:48:18 <oerjan> and not to the same one
12:49:17 <elliott> oerjan: yes, i noticed that
12:58:12 <elliott> well a hacky way would be changing the <code>s to <code style="background: inherit"> i think
13:00:07 <Deewiant> table.wikitable * { background: blaa }
13:00:23 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how the override rules go
13:00:52 <Deewiant> You can always do p > code or something to set it for the default case
13:01:46 <elliott> Deewiant: That's a bit of a sledgehammery approach
13:01:53 <elliott> For instance that probably breaks the external link icon.
13:02:12 <Deewiant> Well, s/\*/code/ if you just want that
13:02:24 <Deewiant> But like said, I'm not sure if it overrides plain code {} or not
13:05:22 <ais523> the override should probably be on table.wikitable td > code
13:05:54 <ais523> on the basis that if you're putting more complex stuff in the table cells, you probably want the background contract
13:06:02 <oerjan> oh hm the color is only different for the darkest wikitable parts
13:06:12 <Deewiant> What if you have th cells? :-P
13:06:24 <Deewiant> And note that IIRC > isn't supported by IE 6, if anybody cares
13:08:14 <elliott> oerjan: you mean the <th>s, presumably
13:08:26 <elliott> the ths on [[malbolge]] are presumably the topic here
13:08:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Does Vector even support IE 6?
13:09:01 <oerjan> elliott: well that's where i noticed it first, anyway
13:12:26 <fizzie> "Probabilities are no longer finite" is one of the nicest error messages.
13:12:33 <fizzie> Those are some pretty dubious probabilities there.
13:13:26 <elliott> fizzie: You need a special drive for those.
13:14:33 <fizzie> I think the "non-finite probabilities" it's speaking about are in fact NaNs, which is perhaps even worse. They're not even numbers anymore.
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13:15:07 <elliott> ais523: if subpages are turned on for a namespace, would the name "///" still work in that namespace?
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13:15:42 <ais523> elliott: it would probably be interpreted as a subpage if there were a page called /, and possibly also if there were a page called //
13:15:54 <ais523> subpages don't change which names are legal, just whether you get breadcrumb links pointing back
13:15:58 <elliott> right, but assuming there aren't :)
13:16:23 <elliott> hmm... http://sprunge.us/OYEP
13:16:46 <elliott> two of those should clearly be deleted or moved (the Sandbox ones)
13:17:01 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/W/ this is ridiculous; any objections to deletion?
13:17:26 <ais523> it was clearly just created to stop spambots creating it
13:17:31 <ais523> so you may as well desalt it
13:17:42 <elliott> (cur | prev) 22:55, 20 March 2011 Iconmaster (Talk | contribs | block) (78 bytes) (It's been popular recently, it deserves a mention.)
13:17:49 <elliott> it's just a reference to the /w/s spambots like to put in page titles
13:17:50 <ais523> it's offtopic, at least
13:17:55 <elliott> see e.g. Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php
13:18:03 <ais523> and that's probably a good reason to delete it
13:18:06 <elliott> meh, you delete it, i've deleted like ten things today already :P
13:18:22 <elliott> gotta distribute the blame!!!
13:19:05 <fizzie> Lovely how the alignment of the right-side |s breaks down with multibyte characters.
13:20:40 <elliott> I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake
13:20:46 <elliott> because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki
13:21:16 <elliott> (that said, you can hardly blame people when getting a file on the file archive involves emailing somebody and waiting N days...)
13:27:53 <ais523> it's usual to use Talk-space subpages, rather than mainspace subpages, for that sort of thing
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13:35:18 <elliott> it's interesting that the wiki move seems to have shot activity up far past what it was even before the spam problem got bad
13:35:44 <elliott> even ignoring my actions, there's ~25 recent changes entries already today
13:37:35 <ais523> this happened on nethackwiki too
13:37:57 <ais523> although in that case, it was an extreme drop in the obnoxiousness levels of the server (especially if you had Flash turned on)
13:38:23 <elliott> I hope the activity sustains :)
13:39:45 <fizzie> Hey, have the Google rankings of nethackwiki.com finally risen above nethack.wikia.com? It used to be the case that (for me) even for a 'nethackwiki something' search it returned wikia results primarily, and I had to use '"nethackwiki" something' with the quotes to make it return the proper ones.
13:40:29 <ais523> fizzie: it's different for different people
13:40:36 <ais523> because Google's rankings aren't consistent between people
13:40:43 <ais523> nethackwiki's been higher on Google for me for ages
13:40:51 <ais523> but that might not be representative of elsewhere
13:40:51 <elliott> they should really figure out a way to trash the wikia :p
13:41:05 <ais523> elliott: we have, we're abandoning it and leaving it to gather spam and misinformation over time
13:41:12 <ais523> and there are a few tricks on the wikia version too
13:41:40 <elliott> ais523: well, every query I try always puts the wikia first
13:41:44 <ais523> Tjr used his admin rights there to get the new user welcome message to advertise nethackwiki, and wikia didn't spot it
13:41:47 <elliott> so it's evidently not effective enough trashing in Google's eyes
13:42:09 <ais523> (this is part of the reason we don't want to rile Wikia up, in case they do)
13:42:25 <elliott> spam doesn't seem likely, since Wikia will do spam-blocking network-wide
13:42:57 <elliott> misinformation is hard to spot when you're looking things up for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure it'll be effective in driving people away; esp. since it's Google's rankings that matter mostly
13:43:46 <ais523> it came up on RGRN recently
13:43:46 <ais523> (the spellbook read timings are wrong on Wikia)
13:44:13 <elliott> are you sure Wikia is actually monitoring it actively?
13:44:14 <ais523> does it still say (old site) in Google results pointing at Wikia NetHack?
13:44:28 <elliott> but it's impossible to find the new site from a random page, so it's not very helpful
13:44:52 <fizzie> Ooh, Google's Hertz-logo is animooooted.
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13:45:01 * elliott would just throw caution to the wind and add a sitenotice that links to the new URL for any given page
13:45:13 <ais523> that was there once, Wikia removed it
13:45:16 <ais523> too obvious, presumably
13:45:29 <elliott> how soon was that after they moved?
13:45:39 <elliott> if Wikia are still actively monitoring it, they have way too much time on their hands
13:45:50 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out that Wikia are really evil at this point
13:46:31 <fizzie> You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
13:46:45 <elliott> http://nethack.wikia.com/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&action=history
13:46:51 <elliott> ais523: well, there's no non-deleted revisions of any such sitenotice
13:46:57 <elliott> but perhaps they added it with some other mechanism
13:47:46 <ais523> elliott: IIRC the deal was that Tjr could do anything he wanted to advertise for two weeks, then they'd put it back to normal
13:47:53 <ais523> but they screwed up the putting it back to normal
13:48:50 <elliott> every time I think more about Wikia's policy of roping in people to "start your own wiki" (when it's actually "donate your wiki to us") and then aggressively keeping ownership of it against the owner's will, it just gets more and more blatantly evil
13:55:08 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Bool) -> a -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Data.List find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable find :: Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Maybe a
13:55:08 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mfilter :: MonadPlus m => (a -> Bool) -> m a -> m a
13:55:17 <elliott> :t \p x -> guard (p x) >> return x
13:55:18 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadPlus m) => (b -> Bool) -> b -> m b
13:56:17 <fizzie> elliott: It's a shame you don't actually own esolangs.org; you could do the Most Evil Thing and secretly sell it to Wikia, like what I think sorta-happened with memory-alpha.org.
13:59:19 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I *want* to own it, so that I can set up IPv6 + email + such.
13:59:26 <elliott> And then sell it to Wikia.
13:59:35 <elliott> Also, I'm not familiar with that incident; details?
14:00:08 <fizzie> I'm not familiar-familiar with it either; http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Forum%3AWikia_now_owns_memory-alpha.org&diff=935325&oldid=935131 might be relevant.
14:00:33 <fizzie> Of course you might not quite get "move to Bahamas" money with it; the battlestarwiki.org guy was offered $2500, according to http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/2008/01/27/battlestar-wiki-buy-out-not-gonna-happen/ -- and it's borderline possible there are more Battlestar Galactica fans than esolang fans.
14:00:57 <ais523> fizzie: gah, you forgot the useskin=monobook
14:01:00 <fizzie> (That latter was a link from the former.)
14:01:13 <elliott> I hope Wikia goes out of business.
14:01:34 <elliott> (...right after distributing standard XML dumps of all of their wikis...)
14:01:43 <fizzie> ais523: Whoever added that link to Wikipedia's Wikia article forgot it.
14:01:57 <elliott> ais523: it's about wikia being terrible; the skin adds to the experience
14:02:15 <ais523> but discussions about Wikia being terrible are often on Wikia, rather than somewhere sane
14:02:42 <ais523> btw, it seems that at least one regular RGRN poster has his browser settings locked down so far he doesn't even notice anything wrong with Wikia
14:02:44 <elliott> IIRC (this information from Sgeo), Wikia actually buy up domains for your wiki that don't exist yet to lock you in.
14:02:59 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me at all
14:03:02 <elliott> Or at least ISTR Sgeo saying that they bought creatureswiki.{net,org} or something without contacting them about it first.
14:03:09 <ais523> although nethackwiki found a reasonably good one
14:03:29 <ais523> (just two characters away from nethack.wikia)
14:03:29 <elliott> I believe that was shortly after they started complaining about the new skin and started talking about moving off Wikia.
14:04:15 <fizzie> ais523: I see all three of nethackwiki.{com,net,org} go to the same place. Very professional.
14:04:27 <elliott> they're a company, an ISP, *and* a non-profit!
14:04:33 <elliott> ais523: hey, do we (Esolang) have a privacy policy?
14:04:43 <ais523> fizzie: Tjr's been going crazy wrt Wikia and SEO
14:04:57 <ais523> he put a lot of effort into trying to get above Wikia in search results
14:05:00 <elliott> if not, what's the most amusing privacy policy you can think of?
14:05:15 <ais523> at one point, he even considered buying sponsored-links advertising for nethack search questions
14:06:10 <ais523> and, we should have a sane one
14:06:29 <ais523> or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"?
14:06:48 <fizzie> I don't trust User:ehird knowing what an IP address is, no.
14:07:03 <fizzie> We should do our best to keep that knowledge from him.
14:07:29 <fizzie> It's a small step from knowing what an IP address is to blowing up power stations remotely.
14:08:49 <ais523> elliott: more evidence of Wikia being evil: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Community_Portal/Archive3#Google_Analytics
14:09:05 <ais523> although, perhaps I misinterpreted it
14:10:01 <ais523> I thought it meant that Wikia agreed to add Google Analytics, but not to tell the wiki contributors the results
14:10:23 <elliott> I think it means they agreed to it, but then went back on that
14:10:44 <elliott> and jayt inferred this is because they didn't want the contributors to see the stats
14:10:59 <elliott> oh, that's not what reticent means
14:11:09 <elliott> ais523: I think it means they agreed to it, but only grudgingly
14:11:22 <ais523> right, I conclude there isn't enough information there to know evil from nonevil
14:11:44 <fizzie> You should maybe eat some apples?
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14:12:36 <elliott> ais523: hey, "In constrast, foo is bar and baz" or "Foo, by constrast, is bar and baz", which is better?
14:13:02 <elliott> oh, it should be "by contrast", but anyway
14:13:15 <ais523> I think I prefer the latter
14:13:29 <elliott> meh, /me just misuses "on the other hand" for the purpose
14:14:29 <elliott> hmm, what the esoteric file archive needs is a wiki interface to it, or something
14:15:58 <elliott> <ais523> or, hmm, "note that your IP address is logged by user:ehird, so if you don't trust him with knowing what it is, don't even view the site"?
14:16:27 <elliott> ais523: "If you do not want ehird to see your IP address, please retroactively unload this page. (You may find [[Feather]] to be helpful for this task.)"
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14:17:01 <ais523> but feather can't retroactively do I/O
14:17:18 <ais523> it'd only work if your server were written in Feather, and let arbitrary people do arbitrary retroactive unviews
14:17:19 <fizzie> I don't think you can use "Feather" and "can't" in the same sentence like that.
14:17:44 <elliott> ais523: I'll retroactively rewrite the server in Feather some day
14:18:05 <HackEgo> 2011-12-22.txt:07:05:16: <ais523> oerjan: that looks like a Feather operator, but I can't decode it
14:18:20 <HackEgo> 2011-01-28.txt:23:37:31: <ais523> elliott: even Feather can't do that
14:18:24 <ais523> that only works if its current impl is capable of being retroactively modified, right?
14:18:34 <elliott> ais523: A serial offender, it looks like.
14:18:53 <elliott> ais523: I'll retroactively make the implementation capable of being retroactively modified.
14:19:06 <ais523> causality doesn't work like that!
14:19:17 <elliott> Yes, to pre-empt your question, I will retroactively cause the Universe to have been programmed in Feather, making this all possible.
14:19:30 <elliott> ais523: That's what they told Feather.
14:20:28 <ais523> this reminds me of the discussion I had at secondary school, about whether it was possible to have something so omnipotent it could have an effect on the universe despite not existing
14:21:25 <elliott> Like whoaaaaaaaa maaaaaaaan.
14:22:46 <elliott> ais523: You have, like, ten seconds to convince me not to install Wikia's skin on Esolang.
14:22:56 <ais523> elliott: don't be an idiot
14:23:01 <ais523> at least, don't make it the default
14:23:06 <ais523> besides, it wouldn't work properly
14:23:14 <ais523> because of that crazy Wikia-centered sidebar and footer
14:23:22 <ais523> also, it'd make half, or probably more, of the articles unreadable
14:23:27 <ais523> also, I'm not even convinced it's open source
14:23:35 <elliott> ais523: all i'm hearing is ways to make the wiki more esoteric
14:23:44 <ais523> but the wiki is meant to be useful
14:24:31 * ais523 seriously hopes that elliott is joking
14:24:53 <elliott> ais523: by the way, you have to come up with a better subtitle
14:25:08 <elliott> so far the winning suggestion is "Irrelevant" which is only 50% better than the current one
14:25:37 <ais523> and where is it displayed
14:25:46 <ais523> and why can't we use "enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity"?
14:26:10 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle, and only in some skins
14:26:14 <elliott> and the printable version of pages, I think
14:26:36 <ais523> I know NetHackWiki's is "NetHackWiki, the NetHack wiki", but that was a blatant SEO attempt
14:26:47 <elliott> I think Cologne Blue might be the only thing it displays in, actually
14:26:50 <ais523> because Google was having trouble figuring out what the site was about
14:27:06 <elliott> the matrix of solidity thing is already in the hostname and on the main page, I don't think it needs to proliferate any further
14:27:24 <elliott> maybe "Have a nice kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen!" :D
14:30:21 <ais523> should probably just be a mention of what the site is about
14:30:29 <ais523> ("no, not <i>that</i> meaning of esoteric")
14:31:01 <elliott> how about "Stop using Cologne Blue"
14:32:33 <ais523> elliott: that'd be out of place on the printable versino
14:33:23 <ais523> where did WoWwiki end up moving to, anyway?
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14:33:54 <elliott> ais523: I checked, the printable version doesn't have it
14:34:03 <elliott> http://www.wowwiki.com/Portal:Main still wikia
14:34:07 <ais523> ah, must be wowpedia.org, which is only the third-highest WoW-related wiki in the DDG results
14:34:14 <ais523> (the other two are both Wikia under different domain names)
14:34:25 <elliott> "In 2010, the administrators (unhappy with Wikia management) started an independent fork known as Wowpedia."
14:34:41 <elliott> "On December 4, 2010, Blizzard Entertainment began to incorporate links to Wowpedia, as well as the database site Wowhead, into the new version of its World of Warcraft Community Site.[16]"
14:35:01 <elliott> ais523: hmm, wowpedia uses [[Portal:Main]] as their main page
14:35:12 <elliott> so does wowwiki.com for that matter
14:35:39 <ais523> I was the main proponent of Portal:Main on Wikipedia
14:35:44 <ais523> although it obviously never happened
14:35:55 <ais523> too many people scared about whether it would actually work or not
14:36:42 <elliott> hmm, I should probably just remove the privacy policy link from the footer
14:36:48 <elliott> annoying to have broken links in the standard chrome
14:38:22 <ais523> and that split is interesting, wowpedia seems to have slightly more edits than wowwiki, but not by much
14:43:47 <elliott> /// is such a lovely language
14:45:57 <Ngevd> Wow, that works now
14:46:17 <Ngevd> Typing "///" in the esolang's search bar
14:46:38 <elliott> ah, yes, I made sure the new server can handle odd titles like that
14:49:24 <elliott> Ngevd: Hey, your HOMEPAGE links to the OLD WIKI.
14:49:42 * elliott has taken it upon himself to view every page of the wiki, or something.
14:50:28 <Ngevd> I'll make a note to fix it once I've got the Luigi edit ready
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14:53:56 <elliott> ais523: ooh, hey, I can grant this permission: "allows hiding the user/IP from the block log, active block list, and user list when blocking. (not available by default)"
14:54:10 <elliott> we could use that to clean up the user list incrementally, as accounts get reused
14:54:32 <ais523> that seems like a good permission to grant to admins, indeed
14:54:35 <elliott> (and then delete the accounts outright based on their hidden status later, if it seems worthwhile)
14:54:47 <elliott> hmm, I'm not too happy about hiding from the block list
14:54:54 <elliott> but the user list part is desirable
14:55:25 <ais523> is there a list of hidden users anywhere public?
14:59:16 <elliott> ais523: hey, what do you call things like Ook!, brainfuck ciphers or brainfuck substitutions or...?
14:59:27 <ais523> brainfuck equivalents is the usual term, right?
14:59:34 <ais523> although IIRC Ook! has a couple more commands than BF does
15:00:21 <Ngevd> It has space for one more, but that is undefined
15:00:22 <elliott> ais523: well, languages can be brainfuck-equivalent without being ciphers, I would say
15:00:33 <elliott> e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE
15:01:06 <Ngevd> Yeah, Ook? Ook? isn't defined
15:01:08 <ais523> oh, it's Cow that adds the extras
15:01:12 <elliott> what's a snappy term for these:
15:01:13 <elliott> *Languages which make it easy to write programs used as typical examples for new languages:
15:01:13 <elliott> ** [[99]], [[CHIQRSX9+]], [[Hello]], [[Hello++]], [[HQ9+]], [[HQ9++]] and [[Huby]],
15:03:23 <Ngevd> Which I was sure existed, but I can find no evidence for
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15:21:25 <elliott> TODO: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.wikipedia.org&namespace=0&limit=500&offset=0
15:23:40 <elliott> ais523: If someone claims to prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook, is that evidence that they're not actually human?
15:29:31 <elliott> hmm, there has to be a bot that can convert external links to interwikis
15:30:27 <Ngevd> MIBBLLII's simplest (to my knowledge) equivalent to iota's i combinator is a valid brainfuck program that prints the null character
15:31:37 <Ngevd> It tests if the current cell is zero. If it is, it sees how far down the cell can go. Otherwise, it prints chr 0
15:34:44 <elliott> By the way, Ørjan: Are you the same Ørjan who sometimes came to the Hexagon gaming club in Trondheim? (I noticed that your home page is on NVG) --Rune 14:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
15:34:53 <elliott> Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?!
15:37:12 <Gregor> No, only that there exists a real person with the name Ørjan.
15:38:13 <ais523> elliott: well, Wikia prefer the Wikia layout to Monobook
15:40:24 <Ngevd> Wikia is an entity, rather than a person.
15:40:32 <Ngevd> This adds evidence to elliott's hypothesis
15:40:40 <ais523> but some person at Wikia must have decided that
15:43:51 <elliott> Gregor: But he CONFIRMED it!!!!!!
15:44:50 <ais523> if oerjan were nonexistent, he could have been lying
15:45:16 <ais523> hmm, Adobe have decided to make Flash on Linux run only in Chrome
15:47:15 <ais523> apparently they have a partnership with Google now, or something
15:47:28 <Deewiant> http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/02/adobe-and-google-partnering-for-flash-player-on-linux.html
15:47:29 <ais523> and are changing Flash to use a Chrome-specific API
15:47:46 <elliott> if you mean the pepper thing, that's not chrome-specific
15:47:56 <elliott> chrome is just the only existing implementation, but IIRC it's a completely public standard
15:48:06 <ais523> because the rival browsers aren't planning to implement it
15:48:19 <ais523> For Flash Player releases after 11.2, the Flash Player browser plugin for Linux will only be available via the “Pepper” API as part of the Google Chrome browser distribution and will no longer be available as a direct download from Adobe.
15:48:22 <elliott> I'm sure a Netscape plugin API <-> Pepper bridge will pop up in the next five seconds.
15:48:29 <ais523> oh, seems they're planning to distribute it only bundled with Chrome, too
15:48:30 <elliott> No need for Mozilla to do anything.
15:49:05 <ais523> although they're planning to security-fix the previous version for five years
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16:05:34 <elliott> 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /wiki/User:6HeilPraktiker9 HTTP/1.1" 404 15054 "-" "-"
16:05:34 <elliott> 62.143.96.18 - - [22/Feb/2012:15:38:40 +0000] "GET /w/index.php?title=User:4HeilPraktiker8&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 200 17213 "-" "-"
16:05:43 <elliott> Think you're smart, do you?!
16:06:08 <elliott> Odd that it didn't send a user-agent that time.
16:06:37 <elliott> ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges?
16:06:42 <elliott> it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time
16:06:48 <elliott> (ofc, it could be someone else)
16:07:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: btw, does your atom feed URL use the lowercase c in Recentchanges?
16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> it should be RecentChanges; right now you're getting redirected every time
16:22:50 <elliott> <elliott> (ofc, it could be someone else)
16:23:03 <elliott> also, ooh, more detail on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker)
16:23:26 <ais523> should I fix it to avoid putting stupid load on you? or is it negligible?
16:23:30 <ais523> hell, I'll change it anyway
16:24:30 <ais523> now none of the pages are coming up in my feed reader, on that specific feed
16:24:43 <ais523> the entries themselves are, but they're all blank
16:25:11 <elliott> try resubscribing frmo the recent changes page
16:25:26 <elliott> the load is neglenglegegilble, considering that spambots are loading pages like every five seconds anyway
16:25:47 <ais523> oh, now the original feed started working again when I did that
16:26:03 <ais523> then when I deleted the duplicate, the original feed stopped working again
16:26:08 <ais523> does this or doesn't this make any sense?
16:26:36 <elliott> also, grr, I'm no good at ///
16:26:39 <mRoman> Are programms allowed to crash due to stack-overflow for a truth-machine :D?
16:26:47 <mRoman> That would make mine a bit shorter.
16:26:58 <elliott> mRoman: most languages don't have specified stack limits
16:27:03 <elliott> so any such overflow is an implementation limitation
16:27:05 <ais523> oh well, I just deleted the other one, and am using the original
16:27:10 <mRoman> Now I'm using "until false" because that does not cause stack overflows :)
16:27:14 <elliott> just like implementations of turing-complete languages can't usually use unbounded storage
16:27:25 <elliott> so if your language doesn't specify a limited stack, it should be fine
16:27:43 <ais523> mRoman: and "while true" does?
16:28:08 <ais523> elliott: what if your language implies a limited stack?
16:28:18 <elliott> ais523: then it specifies one, surely?
16:28:21 <ais523> e.g. C, where you can take addresses of things on the stack, and also calculate the number of bits in an address
16:28:58 <ais523> hmm, really crazy idea: in C, do pointers of the same type that are bit-for-bit identical necessarily have to point to the same place?
16:30:03 <mRoman> any while loop can be written as an until loop I think.
16:31:00 <ais523> right, you just negate the condition
16:31:31 <ais523> I suppose it must be, it seems unlikely to be implemented in hardcoded Funge, and it can't be done in Underload
16:32:19 <ais523> that was obvious, wasn't it?
16:32:24 <ais523> '0'-'9' are contiguous and in order
16:32:35 <ais523> in every remotely commonly used character set
16:32:44 * elliott writes his first FALSE program
16:32:44 <ais523> even C assumes that, even though it assumes hardly anything else about character sets
16:35:27 <elliott> @tell oerjan i tried to write a truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi but failed :(
16:36:14 <ais523> /// is a really amazing language, actually
16:36:20 <ais523> it's one of those truly innovative esolangs
16:37:29 <ais523> anyway, a whole bunch of esolang ideas are converging, and it's kind-of worrying
16:37:34 <ais523> basically, Anarchy, but pure and total
16:37:41 <ais523> I think this language would be awesome
16:37:42 <elliott> anyone who thinks that /// and Underload aren't the best esolangs is super dumb
16:39:30 <elliott> we should have a featured esolang, or something
16:39:38 <elliott> since most of them are so terrible
16:40:16 <Gregor> I think the discussion that we last had about that possibility is what led to the "day of the day" box.
16:40:20 <ais523> I like the concept of featured articles
16:40:43 <ais523> and we'd all cooperate on forwarding the selected language during that month
16:40:44 <Ngevd> [$1.!]$^?0. <-- truth machine in FALSE?
16:40:54 <elliott> ais523: right; featuring the article itself is pointless, though, since Esolang's prose basically ranges from "what you'd expect" to "awful unformatted crap" with nothing in-between
16:41:07 <elliott> so it'd be the esolang itself being featured
16:41:12 <elliott> although, ofc, an article of the former quality would be required
16:41:16 <ais523> but if the article isn't up to scratch, we go fix it
16:41:29 <Gregor> ais523: At first that would be fine, but interesting languages are not produced at that rate, so after a year or so we'd be scraping I think.
16:41:48 <ais523> in emergencies, we could repeat
16:41:51 <elliott> Gregor: I could easily drum up a list of 20 Esolangs immediately worth featuring.
16:41:58 <ais523> but hey, we'd be better off for a few years
16:42:01 <Gregor> elliott: OK, in /two/ years or so ^^
16:42:07 <Gregor> Two years it two years.
16:42:17 <elliott> Gregor: Well, we'd just have to create better esolangs faster ;)
16:42:31 <elliott> In case of droughts we could always just feature non-esolangs.
16:42:43 <elliott> Although there aren't many of those pages on the wiki.
16:42:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:43:10 <Jafet> You can feature languages which would be esoteric if not for the fact that people actually use them
16:43:10 <elliott> I doubt it would inspire any hugely devoted effort to work on the languages, though.
16:43:15 <elliott> People aren't that committed to the wiki.
16:43:15 <Gregor> Our first feature: COBOL
16:43:53 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:43:55 <ais523> elliott: no, although I imagine we have more readers than writers
16:44:07 <ais523> and it'd help newbies to find languages other than BF that weren't pointless BF derivatives
16:44:33 <Gregor> We'd also have to be careful to avoid making the wiki celebrate Cat's Eye Technologies Year
16:44:41 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see the problem???
16:44:58 <mRoman> Is there yet an esolang featuring digital electronucs?
16:45:12 <ais523> mRoman: WireWorld? any of the NAND-based ones?
16:45:34 <Gregor> I'm waiting to figure out what "electronucs" means.
16:46:17 <elliott> I suspect the main problem with featured esolangs would be deciding on them
16:46:43 <ais523> you come up with a list arbitrarily, I give good advice, Gregor gives bad advice
16:46:43 <elliott> I suppose the simplest thing would be to have admins propose them and have a quick informal IRC vote to confirm them.
16:46:53 <Gregor> I think we just need a small council to select a list, then have an open vote amongst them.
16:47:21 <ais523> do we allow people to nominate their own esolangs? on the one hand, they're familiar with them, on the other hand, they're likely to be biased
16:47:34 <elliott> Gregor: That's already 10x more bear-ocracy than anyone will bother to submit to ever.
16:48:00 <elliott> See every previous esolang collaborative project in history.
16:48:45 <ais523> hey, the project that shall not be abbreviated as ABCDEF got halfway through before stopping
16:49:50 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/xvT07d7U <- something like that.
16:50:27 <Gregor> Ah, based on digital /circuits/.
16:50:32 <elliott> Taneb: Did you just optimise my program? :(
16:50:41 <elliott> mRoman: wireworld applies, then
16:50:45 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:50:48 <Gregor> Wireworld, Circute, ...
16:50:58 <Taneb> elliott, I never saw your program
16:51:41 <elliott> Taneb: That's a truth-machine in FALSE, right?
16:52:01 <Taneb> Inspired by your description on how you were about to make one
16:52:03 <mRoman> Is there an esolang based on analog signals?
16:52:16 <elliott> Taneb: You can replace the one on the wiki with it, it's nicer-looking.
16:52:27 <Taneb> I need to test it first
16:52:46 <Gregor> elliott: Is it possible to get a list of the most-viewed pages?
16:53:07 <elliott> Gregor: On the previous site, yes. On the new site, no, caching disables all page statistics features. However, I can get you the values with a little bit of work.
16:53:13 <elliott> (from before the server move)
16:53:26 <elliott> I plan to use analyse the logs to produce periodic counts of the most popular articles.
16:53:26 -!- Jafet has joined.
16:53:30 <elliott> But that'll be a manual thing.
16:53:52 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/ubs1uGQi <- which would somewhat look like this.
16:54:04 <Gregor> elliott: I'm just wondering if those statistics are actually interesting, and not, y'know, ook and lolcode ...
16:54:27 <elliott> Gregor: brainfuck, befunge and malbolge are the top few esolangs IIRC
16:54:40 <elliott> There's http://web.archive.org/web/20060508040217/http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Popularpages but it's from 2006 so it's very out of date.
16:54:54 <Gregor> Yeah, but I suppose the truly interesting classics probably never make it to the top ...
16:55:04 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, it was better than LOLcode.
16:55:45 <Gregor> I was thinking about whether featuredness could be a bit less human (and so less bureaucratic). Have the wiki choose five randomly with a heavy bias of some kind (top may not be the right bias), then have an open vote amongst them.
16:56:08 <Gregor> Probably won't actually work though, because the whole point is that some of them deserve featuredness in spite of nobody remembering them :(
16:56:11 <elliott> Ugh, please tell me the dump actually includes this >_>
16:56:28 <ais523> Gregor: clearly, we start off by flagging every page as "potentially featurable"
16:56:50 <Gregor> Who has that privilege?
16:56:53 <ais523> then whenever a new language is created, or just when we feel like it, we pick five potentially featurable languages at random, and decide on one to deflag as potentially featurable
16:56:57 <elliott> ais523: hey, I don't suppose you have a backup of [[Special:Popularpages]]?
16:57:21 <HackEgo> 718) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot.
16:57:29 <HackEgo> 764) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
16:57:31 <HackEgo> 490) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
16:57:36 <HackEgo> 646) <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
16:57:38 <HackEgo> 515) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
16:57:40 <Gregor> ais523: Too many "we"'s there ...
16:57:53 <ais523> Gregor: it wasn't intended as a serious suggestion
16:58:01 <ais523> hmm, I like the first and last ones best there
16:58:32 <elliott> 764 isn't funny out of context
16:58:59 <ais523> and 764 is more potentially funny
16:59:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:59:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
16:59:08 <ais523> you just deleted two of them
16:59:16 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
16:59:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:59:23 <elliott> now to watch the inevitable hg conflict
16:59:41 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> i am sorry to disappoint you, but my musical taste is on the side abba, verdi, and celine dion. i know this may not be popular and that you would have preferred me to be a satanist.
16:59:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fuck: not found
17:00:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
17:00:18 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:24 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:32 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:34 <HackEgo> 763) <fizzie> The mutable-integer Linux.
17:00:41 <ais523> let's see if I can get a truth machine working first time in INTERCAL
17:00:47 <ais523> I'll write it in the channel without testing it
17:00:50 <ais523> and then run it, to see what happens
17:01:19 <ais523> let's see, it takes input (which will be 0 or 1), then outputs it once on 0 and infinitely often on 1
17:01:48 <ais523> DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
17:01:51 <elliott> grr, Google doesn't have popularpages cached
17:02:41 <ais523> don't bing and altavista both use the same index nowadays?
17:02:46 <Gregor> Surely the old server is still up, just not assigned to the right hostname?
17:02:50 <elliott> wow, they've actually redesigned HotBot
17:02:59 <elliott> Gregor: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ is up, but http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ is a redirect to esolangs.org/wiki
17:03:05 <ais523> $ echo 'DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP' | ick -y tty.i
17:03:06 <ais523> The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
17:03:10 <ais523> hmm, I don't think it's meant to do that
17:03:11 <elliott> I suspect Graue's deleted the files/database
17:03:21 -!- Ngevd has joined.
17:03:32 -!- Jafet has left.
17:03:47 <Gregor> HotBot: The lame and now not even nostalgic interface to the even more lame Lycos.
17:03:51 <elliott> "The value of $wgHitcounterUpdateFreq is then fed into a randomizer, which then updates the page_counter fields of the stored pages when the random number is equal to a particular value."
17:04:14 <elliott> Gregor: OK, I can produce a list of popular pages
17:04:16 -!- Jafet has joined.
17:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: do you have mysql installed?
17:04:27 <ais523> elliott: can't you produce one from the HTTP log?
17:04:31 <elliott> I really don't want to import this database myself...
17:04:39 <elliott> ais523: yes, if you want wildly inaccurate statistics, rather than 7 years of them
17:04:44 <ais523> oh, right, tty.i corresponds to the terminal
17:05:29 <ais523> hmm, gcc is spouting warnings
17:05:31 <ais523> I wonder what I've done wrong
17:05:43 <ais523> looks like autoconf.h is included twice
17:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: INSERT DELAYED INTO `mw_page` (`page_id`, `page_namespace`, `page_title`, `page_restrictions`, `page_counter`, `page_is_redirect`, `page_is_new`, `page_random`, `page_touched`, `page_latest`, `page_len`) VALUES (1,0,'Main_Page','',326802,0,0,0.28651027221839,'20120217091843',30117,2750),(5,8,'Monobook.js','sysop',335,0,0,0.197277670909909,'20070307173606',6847,3456),(138,8,'Currentevents','sysop',1472,0,0,0.525640084897764,'2010112407563
17:05:46 <elliott> 8',6980,13),(139,8,'Currentevents-url','sysop',1361,0,0,0.785110448286972,'20101124075619',6981,13),(696,8,'Sitesubtitle','sysop',507,0,0,0.365130377342115,'20070307173606',7538,16),(930,4,'Copyrights','edit=sysop:move=sysop',13015,0,0,0.135369432617,'20080222215606',11219,993),(932,10,'CompactTOC4','',811,0,1,0.387740738792,'20070307182825',7771,433),(933,10,'CompactTOC2','',785,0,1,0.159088183167,'20070307182825',7772,331),(960,0,'Language_list
17:05:46 <elliott> ','',354189,0,0,0.077168495063,'20120217091503',30115,11937),(961,0,'Brainfuck','',221566,0,0,0.114796326371,'20120216064007',29960,25003),(962,0,'Brainfork','',17362,0,0,0.082227920981,'20111205122553',23594,1929),(963,0,'Wierd','',19611,0,0,0.430107527622,'20110403214059',21696,2994),(964,0,'PATH','',13212,0,0,0.254976121008,'20110417190036',16910,2729),(965,0,'SNUSP','',15399,0,0,0.060558338388,'20111114190620',25201,10941),(966,0,'Smallfuck',
17:05:51 <elliott> '',23258,0,0,0.302840059147,'20110707024222',23595,2505),(967,0,'Spoon','',13058,0,0,0.468207379054,'20091112102619',16406,1751),(968,0,'LNUSP','',8342,0,0,0.035222082197,'20100428170446',17439,2667),(969,0,'Iag','',7871,0,0,0.063484546935,'20110401221642',21680,2093),(970,0,'Kipple','',11179,0,0,0.312570431762,'20101219051748',20514,3281),(971,0,'SMETANA','',12346,0,0,0.01475467089,'20110511152523',22747,3896),(973,2,'Rune','',5247,0,0,0.2022800
17:05:52 <ais523> with different values each time
17:05:56 <elliott> 78643,'20101124003549',7785,512),(974,2,'Graue','',6707,0,0,0.021217745259,'20080714005918',12063,209),(975,0,'Homespring','',9261,0,0,0.02780164489,'20110107230704',20691,1259),(976,2,'Pgimeno','',3847,0,0,0.16126854167,'20101124003540',14015,949)
17:06:00 <elliott> Gregor: I just want the (page_title, page_counter) fields from that, one page per line
17:06:03 <elliott> Eagerly awaiting the appropriate Perl script, thx
17:06:09 <elliott> Then you can have yer page :P
17:06:24 <ais523> yay, my INTERCAL program works
17:06:26 <ais523> DO WRITE IN .1 DO COME FROM .1 (1) DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
17:06:33 <ais523> now I'll put it in the article
17:07:38 <ais523> Gregor: test it yourself if you don't believe me
17:07:45 <Ngevd> I think this is only a popular problem because it is on the popular problems page
17:07:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's the first time I've ever written an INTERCAL program correctly first time
17:08:05 <ais523> Ngevd: we're making it a popular problem, so it can reasonably go there
17:08:14 <ais523> hmm, is writing a deadfish interp on that page? because it should be
17:08:37 <ais523> oh, it's lumped into "interpreter"
17:10:05 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Popular_problem&curid=1135&diff=30415&oldid=30383 :p
17:10:18 <olsner> I wonder what the context was for my stealing quote
17:10:38 <ais523> `pastlog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate
17:10:48 <olsner> `pastelog olsner.*stealing is more appropriate
17:10:56 <elliott> olsner: ais523 didn't typo
17:11:15 <elliott> our log scripts are designed for naming confusion :D
17:11:19 <olsner> I was just about to say that pastlog made sense as an alias for pastelog
17:11:35 <Gregor> `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog
17:11:38 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `bin/pastelog': File exists
17:11:52 <Gregor> `run ls -l bin/pastelog
17:11:55 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:11 bin/pastelog
17:12:01 <Gregor> `run ls -l bin/pastelogs
17:12:03 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 602 Feb 22 17:12 bin/pastelogs
17:12:03 <elliott> <Gregor> `run ln -s pastelogs bin/pastelog
17:12:09 <elliott> This is an extraordinarily stupid command to run.
17:12:12 <ais523> looks like it's been cped rather than lned
17:12:23 <elliott> Since ./pastelogs doesn't exist.
17:12:26 <ais523> `pastlog stealing is more
17:12:35 <HackEgo> 2011-10-02.txt:00:44:04: <elliott> `addquote <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate
17:12:38 <Gregor> elliott: So, you don't get how symlinks work then. Hooplah.
17:12:53 <olsner> `run ls -l bin/pastlog
17:12:58 <HackEgo> 2012-02-22.txt:17:12:51: <ais523> `log 2011-10-01
17:13:03 <ais523> elliott: symlinks are relative to the symlink itself
17:13:05 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 102 Feb 22 17:13 bin/pastlog
17:13:31 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://64.62.173.65/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:13:39 * ais523 swats Gregor with oerjan's flyswatter -----###
17:14:17 <elliott> ais523: hey, you ruined the log URL
17:14:19 <ais523> it's hard to know what to do better, though
17:14:22 <Gregor> Wha, what am I being swatted for?
17:14:37 <ais523> Gregor: pushing the links off the end of the portion of the topic /my/ client shows
17:15:28 <olsner> oh, there it is... http://64.62.173.65/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-10-02#004215olsner
17:15:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:15:53 <Gregor> If it's not going to look like a scam, it may as well have the real hostname.
17:16:00 <ais523> elliott: <olsner> I think stealing is more appropriate if you do it by copying the useful parts of the code (rather than e.g. building a library out of the reusable parts)
17:16:48 <olsner> <olsner> what [if] you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:16:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:17:16 <olsner> (that was much better than the other thing I said about stealing, IMO)
17:17:28 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:17:31 <HackEgo> 808) <olsner> what a world it would be if you could actually *steal* code so that the other project has to rewrite it or infiltrate your project to steal it back
17:17:46 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
17:17:51 <ais523> elliott: an URL shortener that's designed to produce suspicious-looking URLs?
17:18:02 <ais523> also, CLC-INTERCAL's networking allows you to steal variables from other processes
17:18:06 -!- jix has joined.
17:18:06 <ais523> which causes them to not have them any more
17:18:44 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants all the TOC links are broken
17:19:45 <ais523> /* <-- Deadfish Interpreted Computer Language --> */
17:19:48 <ais523> that's a worrying comment syntax…
17:20:08 <ais523> olsner: if the variable's read-only at the time, you can't steal it, because that would change it
17:20:12 <ais523> but you can smuggle a copy of it instead
17:21:16 <olsner> intercal cares about preserving the values of read-only variables?
17:21:30 <ais523> olsner: it cares /that deeply/
17:21:38 -!- tzxn3 has joined.
17:21:49 <olsner> I'm surprised, are you sure there isn't some keyword that will let you do it anyway?
17:22:11 <ais523> (more to the point, it gives a possibility for unavoidable and unhandlable fatal errors that you can't do anything about and aren't your fault)
17:22:52 <ais523> elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#dc
17:22:59 <ais523> what are the odds that the non-code section of that were written by zzo38?
17:23:47 <elliott> ais523: the code section was too
17:24:10 <ais523> err, that actually makes sense, in retrospect
17:24:14 <elliott> ais523: can we /please/ delete [[Cobol on Cogs]]? I just had to remove it from the /language list/
17:26:42 <ais523> what's your favourite Scheme-related report revision?
17:27:39 <elliott> or maybe 4, but probably 5
17:27:49 <elliott> however, 7 looks like it might become my favourite
17:28:03 <elliott> as they essentially reverted to 5 and decided to do the exact opposite of 6
17:28:13 <elliott> which means they're actually making reasonable changes
17:28:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:29:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:29:52 <ais523> haha, this anagolf deadfish thing is crazy
17:30:01 <ais523> instead of !=256, the winning person did !~56
17:30:23 <ais523> which means "interpret 56 as a string representation of a regexp, and check to see if the argument doesn't match it"
17:31:54 <elliott> wait, how does /that/ work?
17:32:39 <ais523> it just happened to hit all the test cases
17:32:43 <Ngevd> I've done a truth tester in Piet
17:33:23 <elliott> Ngevd: do you mean truth-machine?
17:33:52 <elliott> it seems "I know it's not a popular problem since I'm probably the only one who has made them, but..." is turning into a self-defeating prophecy :)
17:34:04 <elliott> ais523: btw, do you think Clue (Keymaker) is TC?
17:34:16 <olsner> what's a truth-machine?
17:34:17 <ais523> I haven't really looked into it
17:34:44 <ais523> olsner: a program that takes input (which is always going to be 0 or 1, undefined behaviour in other cases), and outputs it once and halts if it's 0, or forever in an infinite loop if it's 1
17:34:45 <elliott> olsner: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
17:34:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:35:36 <ais523> @pl \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x
17:35:36 <lambdabot> join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle)
17:35:51 <ais523> > join (flip (flip if' id . (0 ==)) cycle) 0
17:36:33 <lambdabot> [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]...
17:36:37 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.cycle: empty list
17:36:48 <ais523> I'd assume that cycle [] would be []
17:36:55 <ais523> as it can't reasonably be anything else
17:37:03 <ais523> and I meant repeat, not cycle
17:37:13 <ais523> :t \x -> (if x == 0 then id else cycle) x
17:37:31 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I'm writing a truth-machine in Forte
17:37:38 <elliott> it's easy apart from the infinite-loop part
17:37:48 <ais523> be careful not to run out of numbers
17:37:51 <Jafet> You're so impartial.
17:37:59 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/TTKi is what I have so far
17:38:20 <ais523> elliott: 202 PROFIT, obviously
17:38:38 <ais523> more seriously, start with a value higher than 666, so that you don't have clashes
17:38:42 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . m Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php; 17:33 . . (-90) . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) (Reverted edits by Ehird (talk) to last revision by Chris Pressey)
17:38:47 <ais523> then you have two lines, each of which increases the other's number
17:38:52 <elliott> did I hit rollback accidentally or something?
17:39:02 <ais523> that looks like a rollback to me
17:39:23 <ais523> 1000 LET 999=999+2 \ 1001 LET 1000=1000+2
17:39:38 <ais523> that's the usual way to do an infinite loop in Forte, assuming that 2 still has its original value
17:39:49 <elliott> hmm, I think I'll wait until I'm more awake to do it in Forte
17:40:01 <ais523> it's 5:40pm, how are you not awake?
17:46:53 * elliott writes his first befunge-93 program
17:47:18 <elliott> ah, and of course it's buggy
17:48:06 <Ngevd> Gonna try to do a Whenever one
17:48:12 <elliott> nicely laid out, if I do say so myself
17:55:52 <elliott> Deewiant: Sigh, you shame me :(
17:55:55 <elliott> quintopia: It's a truth-machine
17:55:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
17:56:37 <elliott> Deewiant: You can replace mine if you want :P
17:57:27 <elliott> ais523: hey, how do you do input of a 0 or 1 digit in underlambda? ;)
17:57:35 <quintopia> it is the opposite of a truth machine
17:59:50 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I/O is one of the big hangups in underlambda
18:00:13 <Deewiant> Actually, the zero is superfluous in both of these
18:00:34 <Deewiant> elliott: You need to negate before the & for that
18:00:43 <Gregor> I suddenly have a strong urge to add a "featured page" box to the main page with a Droste-ish image of the main page as the featured page.
18:00:46 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think so.
18:00:51 <elliott> Horizontal if = left if true.
18:00:52 <Deewiant> elliott: (Unless I misremembered _'s order: I tend to)
18:00:59 <elliott> Which, yes, is bass-ackwards.
18:01:51 <Ngevd> I've got a Whenever program, but I'm not sure if it's compliant
18:01:55 <Ngevd> 2 defer(1) print("0") 3#-1;
18:01:56 <Ngevd> 3 defer(2) print("1") 3#1;
18:02:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Dose the first one not work?
18:02:40 <Deewiant> The first one skips over the & at the start
18:04:35 <Deewiant> Hint: the canonical "print string" is >:#,_
18:05:54 <elliott> I can't figure out why #.&# :#:_.@ doesn't work on 1 :(
18:06:06 <elliott> But I don't see why, since _ is testing a 1
18:06:28 <Deewiant> You need to skip the @ from the right side
18:06:35 <Ngevd> Can anyone check my Whenever program there?
18:06:46 <elliott> Deewiant: Why? I should never go right towards it in the 1 codepath
18:06:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Try it on input 1
18:06:55 <Deewiant> elliott: It goes left towards it
18:07:01 <elliott> TYes, it does, but it skips it
18:07:12 <Deewiant> elliott: That's not how # works in Befunge-93
18:08:17 <Deewiant> elliott: Also, that one doesn't halt in ccbi --befunge93, at least. :-P
18:08:58 <elliott> Deewiant: Yeah, I'm using some crappy JS impl
18:09:30 <ais523> I think I beat both of you, although it has a stack overflow in it
18:09:58 <ais523> just because funge-space wraps, doesn't mean program execution has to
18:10:38 <elliott> ais523: It'd be nice to have one with constant stack usage, though
18:10:49 <ais523> yep, sadly removing either : doesn't work
18:11:19 <elliott> I'll put mine and yours on
18:11:22 <elliott> Deewiant: &#::_.@# is nicer
18:11:56 <elliott> Deewiant: Mine uses O(1) stack
18:12:05 <Deewiant> elliott: But it's a bigger 1 than my 1
18:12:37 <ais523> bleh, I need to physically be in the computer labs to do this GPU programming
18:12:46 <ais523> I can remote into the servers just fine, but they try to run it on my local GPU
18:12:51 <ais523> which isn't made by NVidia
18:13:08 <ais523> (kind of interesting that the program can run on the local GPU through an ssh -Y tunnel)
18:13:52 <Jafet> Run it on the remote X server instead?
18:14:13 <ais523> but it's actually drawing to the screen, or trying to
18:14:24 <ais523> I can run it on the remote server without issues, but then I can only get text output back
18:14:30 <ais523> which is no good, as I'm meant to be testing the UI
18:14:35 <elliott> haha, I just independently rewrote ais523's
18:14:38 <Deewiant> elliott: &# :_:.@# is one char longer but it uses less O(1) stack
18:14:45 <Jafet> I wonder if OpenCL even allows this.
18:14:59 <ais523> surely, it's not an OpenCL issue at all?
18:15:09 <ais523> it's up to the X server what GPU it decides to run on, I guess
18:15:24 <elliott> Deewiant: As far as O(1) stack usage goes, I'm only interested in a shorter program :P
18:15:37 <Jafet> OpenCL is irrelevant because you are using CUDA.
18:15:42 <Jafet> I'm just complaining that OpenCL sucks.
18:16:38 <ais523> Jafet: well, I'm using an Intel graphics card, so I'm not using CUDA
18:16:49 <ais523> there is an NVidia graphics card on the server I'm trying to remote into, but it seems to be irrelevant
18:17:06 <ais523> (and if you'd ever wondered why servers needed top-of-the-range graphics cards, this is the explanation)
18:18:05 <Jafet> I thought you said that it would only run on nvidia GPUs.
18:18:45 <mRoman> I've got a truth machine in Madbrain.
18:18:56 <mRoman> Sadly, a thruth machine is not turing complete.
18:19:11 <ais523> Jafet: it does only run on nvidia GPUs
18:19:18 <ais523> because CUDA's an NVidia thing
18:19:59 <Jafet> http://www.supermicro.nl/products/nfo/files/gpu/SW7046GT_FC405.jpg
18:24:40 <mRoman> I still think Madbrain can not be turing complete
18:28:06 <mRoman> unless somebody finds a way to duplicate data
18:29:12 <mRoman> ie if someone finds a program in madbrain, which reads one number from the user and outputs it twice
18:32:56 <ais523> mRoman: can't you just use control flow to duplicate data?
18:33:00 <elliott> ais523: hey, do you think this direct quote is a copyvio? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bub
18:33:12 <elliott> it could be fair use, I suppose
18:33:15 <ais523> do an if statement to determine between 0 and 1, then push twice
18:33:28 <ais523> I suspect it's fair use
18:33:56 <Ngevd> Done a MarioLang Truth Machine for fun.
18:34:00 <Ngevd> Should I put on page?
18:34:09 <mRoman> ais523: if also destroys data
18:34:22 <mRoman> if(a>b) <- you lose a and b
18:34:28 <ais523> mRoman: doesn't matter, the data, when destroyed, survives in the control flow
18:34:44 <ais523> then you can get the data-dependent bit of the control flow to push the same data back twice
18:35:11 <quintopia> like if (a=0) push 0, push 0. if (a=1) push 1. push 1. repeat for all a
18:36:05 <ais523> quintopia: actually, it's more like if(a=0) push 0, push 0 else push 1, push 1
18:36:08 <elliott> wait, I forgot I could be doing these edits as a bot
18:36:10 <ais523> because a isn't preserved by the comparison
18:36:17 <elliott> might as well bloat recent changes more now that I've started
18:36:25 <quintopia> ais523: havent actually read the madbrain spec
18:37:21 -!- ais523 has set topic: logs: http://5z8.info/getPersonalData-start_i1b6qg_back-to-africa | 1 days since somebody new showed up actually looking for the /right/ definition of "esoteric" | This channel now has three members who are neither from Hexham nor Finland | (And 48 who are lying scoundrels) | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
18:37:27 <mRoman> http://codepad.org/ZpDXbI41 <- that can print the number twice
18:37:31 <ais523> that URL doesn't look like a logs URL at all
18:37:34 <mRoman> if and only if the number is either 0 or 1
18:37:46 <ais523> and 0 and 1 is all you need
18:38:15 <mRoman> which would make it indeed turing complete
18:38:16 <ais523> more interesting, at least for me, is the way that there's no way to push to the bottom of the stack, but a whole bunch of commands pop from there
18:38:25 <ais523> so the question is about whether you can get infinite storage
18:38:26 <quintopia> the code for duplicating a bigger number (written as a string of 1s and 0s) might be complicated?
18:39:18 <quintopia> probably just nested ifs will do it
18:39:40 <mRoman> if does not compare the two top-most elements
18:39:44 <ais523> btw, I'm disappointed by your link, I was hoping codepad would do Madbrain
18:40:09 <mRoman> it compares the element at the top with the element at bottom
18:40:59 <mRoman> duplicating a number with 2 bits is already complicated enough
18:43:48 <ais523> the trick with such languages is to typically not try to treat them like regular languages
18:43:56 <ais523> you could quite possibly do cyclic tag in madbrain, for instance
18:44:21 <Ngevd> I think I've done a Numeric Topline one
18:45:08 <ais523> I think literals, g and q are by themselves enough for TCness
18:45:36 <ais523> hey, Madbrain isn't categorised
18:45:52 <elliott> 183 recent changes entries today
18:45:55 <elliott> that has to be some kind of record
18:46:34 <elliott> mRoman: did you invent it in 2010?
18:46:45 <Ngevd> Wow, and almost all of them are non-spam!
18:46:54 <elliott> Ngevd: 100% of them, actually
18:47:02 <Ngevd> This new wiki is AWESOME
18:47:02 <ais523> actually, regular tag is simpler than cyclic tag
18:47:07 <Ngevd> Go Alan Turing year!
18:47:18 <ais523> mRoman = Feuermonster?
18:48:08 <mRoman> nearly two years and it's still not proofen to be either turing-complete or non-turing-complete :)
18:49:45 <ais523> I'm working on a tag system -> madbrain compiler right now
18:50:03 <ais523> how do I make that interp read the file to input from the command line, rather than always opening input.mb? I don't really know Python
18:50:59 <Ngevd> Or rather, Python 2.x or 3.x
18:51:07 <mRoman> f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb")
18:51:21 * elliott reformats http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
18:52:01 <mRoman> if you mean in a "readline" style then open(raw_input(),"rb")
18:52:38 <mRoman> f=open(sys.argv[1],"rb"); then
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18:53:36 <elliott> ais523: The 'b' is redundant unless you care about Windows and want binary newlines.
18:53:56 <ais523> but I was just making a minimal change to the program
18:53:58 <elliott> ais523: Also, you probably want "with open(...) as f:"
18:54:05 <ais523> to the existing interp, that is
18:54:07 <elliott> for deterministic resource allocation
18:54:30 <mRoman> deterministic resource allocation?
18:55:14 <elliott> mRoman: There's no guarantee that the file handle will be closed in a timely fashion if you just open() and leave the finaliser to close it.
18:55:26 <elliott> CPython uses refcounting so it will, but other implementations don't and there's no guarantee CPython always will.
18:55:32 <elliott> Admittedly, leaking one file handle is not the biggest deal in the world.
18:56:00 <mRoman> file handles should be freed by the os on program termination anyway
18:56:15 <ais523> mRoman: first line in the Madbrain program is numbered 1?
18:56:34 <mRoman> It uses an array. So it is zero based.
18:56:52 * ais523 thinks this sounds suspiciously like an implementation detail
18:57:10 <mRoman> Then you'd better not look at Stlang.
18:57:19 <mRoman> That has python implementation details hidden all over the place ;P
18:57:49 <elliott> ais523: btw, is it just me or is the "enhanced" recent changes worse than the normal recent changes?
18:58:21 <ais523> it's less useful, indeed
18:59:51 <Gregor> Oy, all your commit summaries are /so British/.
19:00:29 <mRoman> The r opcode is also an implementation detail I guess.
19:01:54 <mRoman> if you want to read from stdin you should change it to
19:02:00 <mRoman> elif(l[i]=="r"):s.append(int(sys.stdin.read(1)))
19:02:06 <ais523> how do I do a no-op in madbrain? or can't I?
19:02:37 <ais523> should be mentioned in the spec, reallyt
19:02:48 <mRoman> any char which is not an opcode is a nop
19:03:14 <elliott> -ise is not even en-gb-x-oed, so it's not that british :)
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19:14:08 <ais523> hmm, why isn't this working?
19:14:37 <elliott> ais523: why isn't what working?
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19:14:48 <Ngevd> What's people's opinions on Solaris?
19:15:09 <elliott> Ngevd: the proprietary version is Oracle-controlled
19:15:15 <elliott> but solaris is famous for being fairly crappy as far as userland goes
19:15:26 <elliott> ais523: btw, we don't know that the constants on [[brainfuck constants]] are optimal, do we?
19:15:47 <ais523> well, some are provably optimal, like + fo r1
19:15:57 <Ngevd> Because I have came into possession of a CD containing a copy of Solaris 11 through possibly mildly illegal means
19:16:23 <elliott> ais523: I was thinking that since they establish lower bounds that reduce the program-space vastly, and since two of BF's instructions can't be used in them, it might be feasible to brute-force better ones
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19:17:16 <elliott> [22/Feb/2012:19:16:47 +0000] "GET /wiki/Jot HTTP/1.1" 200 6227 "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iota_and_Jot"
19:17:28 <elliott> it's a good thing WP has articles on a bunch of non-notable esolangs, or we'd get no traffic
19:20:06 <ais523> anyone know here if a 2-tag system with an alphabet of size 9 can be TC?
19:20:24 <ais523> I'm reasonably sure it can be, 9's easily large enough
19:20:30 <ais523> even if one's a halt state
19:21:42 <elliott> the new MediaWiki diff colours are so weird and new
19:21:52 <elliott> http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=55218&oldid=54686
19:24:08 <Ngevd> You know who'd know if my Whenever program would work or not?
19:25:54 <elliott> GET /w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Talk%3AMain_Page?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&ret...
19:27:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, now I'm confused -- "Turing-equivalent" is identical to "Turing-complete" when said of a language, right?
19:28:09 <ais523> no, according to mark chu-carroll, "turing-complete" is meaningless for a language
19:28:28 <Ngevd> Nah, Banana Scheme and its ilk are Turing complete but not Turing equivalent
19:28:30 <elliott> if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well?
19:28:30 <ais523> a turing-complete program is one that can only be implemented in a turing-equivalent language
19:28:39 <elliott> Ngevd: no, banana scheme and its ilk are _not_ turing-complete
19:29:07 <elliott> one day I'm going to figure out what complexity theorist invented the "complete" and "hard" terminology
19:29:07 <Ngevd> They can implement arbitrary Turing machines
19:29:17 <elliott> Ngevd: yes, but that isn't what Turing-complete means (if anything)
19:29:18 * ais523 goes ahead and says "turing complete" on the wiki mainspace anyway
19:29:27 <elliott> ais523: but <elliott> if turing-complete is meaningless for a language, surely turing-hard is as well?
19:30:02 * elliott thinks we should use the wiki to POV-push our favourite pedantically-correct terms for things, but is too confused about this one to figure out whether we should or not
19:31:39 <Gregor> As far as I'm concerned, "Turing-hard" means "capable of implementing a universal Turing machine," and "Turing-complete" means both Turing-hard and "capable of being implemented by a Turing machine." That last one's a bit tricky since it gets into nitty issues of encoding and such, but I think usually gives the right idea.
19:32:14 <Ngevd> I thought Turing-Hard meant "I/O aside, cannot be implemented on a Turing Machine"
19:32:19 <ais523> and Madbrain proof is on the wiki now
19:32:26 <elliott> Gregor: The former admits <fancy L>.
19:32:28 <ais523> mRoman: that wasn't difficult, you should have asked me earlier :)
19:32:36 <elliott> Gregor: You need some universal quantification in there.
19:32:53 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92)
19:33:18 <Gregor> elliott: The whole point of "Turing-hard" is to admit such languages.
19:33:46 <elliott> Gregor: Huh? But that's irrelevant to languages that can do "all UTMs + more".
19:34:01 <elliott> Your definition of TH and TC both admit fancy-L.
19:34:29 <Gregor> Wait wait, m-- argh, Fancy L seriously ruins everything always.
19:35:02 <elliott> Gregor: Turing-hard should be "capable of implementing every universal Turing machine".
19:35:10 <elliott> Your definition of TC can stay unchanged.
19:35:43 * elliott thinks basing things on Turing machines might be a mistake, since they're so unlike most languages.
19:35:50 <Gregor> Anyway, the terms are all still silly since "Turing" isn't a computational class.
19:35:52 <elliott> They're more like CAs than languages, really.
19:36:15 <elliott> Gregor: So what should we call things that can implement all UTMs, and what should we call things that are equivalent to UTMs?
19:38:24 <Ngevd> So, all Steves are Bills, but not all Bills are Steves
19:38:39 <Ngevd> Except for the Steves that are fancy L
19:38:54 <Ngevd> Also, should I email DMM concerning my Whenever program?
19:39:12 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
19:39:12 <ais523> hmm, the truth machine is actually really quite a good concept for showing off languages
19:39:35 <Ngevd> Screw this, I'm sending this email
19:39:48 <elliott> ais523: yes, it's inspired
19:40:00 <mRoman> ais523: I don't even know what a tag system is and how they work ;)
19:40:24 <elliott> There's an article for that!
19:40:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system
19:40:28 <elliott> "A tag system is a restricted kind of Post normal system where productions can only be uniquely selected based on the first symbol of each of their antecedents."
19:40:32 <elliott> Okay, maybe that's not very helpful.
19:40:35 <mRoman> your compiled example programm apparently leaves the stack in a state of
19:40:38 <ais523> mRoman: they're on my list of "things to compile into languages to prove them TC"
19:40:45 <elliott> But the definition section is a bit clearer!
19:40:46 <mRoman> of [3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 1]
19:40:51 <Sgeo> Choose a particular value for L and P, map turing machines to programs written for that L and P
19:40:56 <Sgeo> There, that's a mapping
19:41:00 <Sgeo> Am I missing something?
19:41:00 <elliott> heh, that article used to be even "better": http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tag_system&oldid=1342
19:41:05 <Ngevd> Well, in other news, I passed that Open University module
19:41:11 <ais523> mRoman: <Esolang's article on tag systems> H3333331 (halt).
19:41:17 <Ngevd> `quote Open University
19:41:20 <HackEgo> 653) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
19:41:20 <elliott> seems like R.e.s. has left the wiki :(
19:41:30 <mRoman> except that the H is missing ;)
19:41:38 <ais523> how do you put an H on the stack? :)
19:41:53 <elliott> ais523: hey, should I install Cite on Esolang?
19:41:54 <mRoman> but I have no idea what
19:42:01 <ais523> elliott: what does it do?
19:42:06 <ais523> mRoman: it doesn't mean anything, it's abstract
19:42:08 <elliott> ais523: <ref> and <references>
19:42:13 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system and http://esolangs.org/wiki/P%E2%80%B2%E2%80%B2 currently both fake it
19:42:20 <ais523> if you think it'd be useful
19:42:46 * elliott is mostly just annoyed at the inconsistent formatting of footnotes :P
19:42:48 <ais523> mRoman: not all languages work the same way; tag systems are mindblowingly low-level
19:42:54 <ais523> it's like asking what 01001101 means
19:43:21 <ais523> anyway, you might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system helpful
19:43:31 <Ngevd> In even more news, I am fairly confident elliott is real
19:44:18 <Gregor> elliott: Hmmmmmm, Sgeo has a point and I don't recall what the answer is; if you choose to map all UTMs to a fixed L, P, then your mapping's range isn't all possible fancy-L programs, but it's still a valid mapping ...
19:45:03 <mRoman> but why is the 1 dropped?
19:45:13 <mRoman> 211 -> 1331 (not 11331)
19:45:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well the mapping has to preserve semantics :P
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19:45:37 <Gregor> elliott: So? Your L,P /is/ a UTM.
19:46:17 <Gregor> OK, I pick any L, and P as an implementation of a UTM.
19:46:19 <elliott> The original L was Pascal and the original P was a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:25 <elliott> That results in the *language*.
19:46:32 <elliott> So it's ℒ(Pascal,BF interpreter) you have to prove Turing whatever.
19:46:53 <mRoman> seems like it always removes 2 digits
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19:47:01 <mRoman> but just looks at the first.
19:47:15 <elliott> Gregor: In conclusion idgi :P
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19:47:27 <Gregor> Ohohoh, the problem is the quantification, duh. The claim is about fancy-L for all fancy-L.
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19:47:50 <Gregor> But I would argue that the mapping exists, it's just not discoverable.
19:48:45 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure what you mean >_>
19:48:49 <elliott> I think L and P are confusing things.
19:48:59 <elliott> They're essentially just an explanation device.
19:49:11 <elliott> They don't factor in any proofs of TCness or whatever because they're fixed right at the start of discussion to set a language.
19:50:31 <elliott> "The major criticism regarding Cite.php is that it renders the editing of references much more tedious. Moreover, because many casual Wikipedia users are not familar with the cryptic Wikitext tags that they find with the use of Cite.php, it is likely that the net effect of Cite.php is often to deter new users from making edits to reference sections. Although Wikipedia supposedly got its name from the Hawaiian word "wiki-wiki", meaning "quick-quic
19:50:31 <elliott> k", Cite.php is arguably neither quick nor easy for the average Wikipedia user."
19:50:41 <elliott> You know when you see a criticism section and it's immediately obvious it was written by one person?
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19:54:21 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm back to not getting fancy-L at all again.
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19:55:38 <elliott> Gregor: OK, let me explain it without any polymorphism.
19:55:51 <elliott> Fancy L is a language designed by blah in the year blah.
19:56:05 <elliott> There is one instruction: B -- reads a brainfuck program and input (in dbfi) from stdin, and runs it.
19:56:28 <elliott> (And no program can contain anything but a single B instruction.)
19:56:37 <elliott> (So "B" is the sole Fancy L program.)
19:57:18 <elliott> On the one hand, there is a Fancy L program that interprets arbitrary brainfuck programs, and brainfuck is TC. Proofs of TCness by implementing a brainfuck interpreter are very common.
19:57:26 <elliott> On the other hand, you cannot translate an arbitrary UTM into a Fancy L program.
19:59:00 <Gregor> I would argue that we've essentially just found a corner where our encoding is hurting us. Turing machines do not have input distinct from state. If you consider a program by that notion, such that the only way to consider a program in reduced-fancy-L is with both state (well, code) and input, then certainly it's TC. If not, then we can argue about pedantry forever :)
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19:59:46 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, the whole point of Fancy L is to poke at that ambiguity :P
20:00:02 <Gregor> Yeah, yeah, I know that X-D
20:00:10 <elliott> The idea is that we intuitively don't want Fancy L to be TC, so we need to use definitions of TCness that exclude it.
20:00:20 <elliott> But then we get the result that implementing BF in a language is *not enough* to prove it TC.
20:00:31 <Ngevd> Whether Fancy L is TC or not depends on how we ignore I/O
20:00:36 <elliott> And we have to write complicated compilers insteadd.
20:01:38 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, I'm not sure what I'm meant to be right about.
20:01:41 <elliott> I'm not sure what the topic is at all :P
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20:03:22 <Gregor> elliott: I was just viewing the whole problem wrong, since the point, as you said, is to poke at that distinction.
20:03:43 <Gregor> I do think the page could be written better :)
20:04:01 <elliott> I basically just copied cpressey's original description, IIRC.
20:04:04 <elliott> Let me find a link to it...
20:04:22 <elliott> Gregor: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php
20:06:20 <mRoman> What is Fancy L anyway?
20:06:40 <Ngevd> Complex computer science that I don't fully understand.
20:07:07 <Phantom__Hoover> mRoman, an attempt to pry at some assumptions in the definition of Turing-completeness.
20:07:07 <Ngevd> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
20:08:44 <Ngevd> It's simple in the problem it poses
20:08:49 <Ngevd> Complex in the solution to the problem
20:09:09 <mRoman> A language with one instruction which reads a BF program from stdin and interprets it?
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20:09:47 <Ngevd> Is that language Turing Complete?
20:09:49 <Gregor> elliott: His very first line on its description would have cleared up everything ;)
20:10:35 <elliott> Gregor: Good thing it's a wiki and you can edit it!
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20:28:00 <oerjan> hey ais523 isn't here, i was going to swat him for stealing the flyswatter.
20:28:00 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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20:31:26 <oerjan> elliott: an itflabtijtslwi (wow i didn't have to expand the acronym before typing it!) truth-machine is probably going to need the entire main loop scaffolding.
20:32:04 <oerjan> other than that, it shouldn't be that hard.
20:33:17 <oerjan> eek you've talked a lot
20:34:07 <Ngevd> Count the links to fancy L
20:34:42 <oerjan> argh more than 100 edits since i logged off as well
20:35:46 <oerjan> elliott: with this wiki traffic i almost miss the spammers, at least i could skip their new pages :P
20:38:14 <oerjan> that truth machine got a real popular problem really fast :P
20:38:42 <Ngevd> I'm responsible for at least three
20:40:32 * oerjan swats ais523 for stealing the flyswatter. -----###
20:40:50 <mRoman> oerjan: It's listed unter popular problems, so it has to be .
20:41:11 <oerjan> mRoman: you realize it was put there today, right
20:43:29 <mRoman> oerjan: Of course, I'm joking.
20:47:27 <Ngevd> There is now a BIT Truth-machine
20:55:05 <elliott> oerjan: most of the edits are resource -> resources ;P
20:56:36 <oerjan> at least mediawiki tabs are lightweight
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20:58:32 <itidus22> Alan Turing is turing complete :-D
20:58:57 <itidus22> He is a proof that humans can devise turing machines.
20:59:03 <oerjan> itidus22: that is fairly unlikely, and not just because he's dead.
20:59:09 <ais523> being able to devise something isn't the same as being able to implement it
20:59:18 <ais523> you can easily output a representation of a turing machine with cat
20:59:22 <ais523> that doesn't make cat TC
21:01:57 <itidus22> the proof that alan turing is turing complete is he can program with http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
21:02:55 <itidus22> now i wonder if there is any natural languge which is not TC
21:05:10 <oerjan> itidus22: no that isn't a proof. you need to show he can _run_ any english program.
21:05:39 <shachaf> elliott: 13:00 < elliott1> what is the difference between $ and . ?
21:06:00 <shachaf> I'm going to pretend that elliott1 = elliott.
21:06:14 <elliott> shachaf: No. No. Why must they have my name
21:06:34 <shachaf> elliott: I note that there's not a singe "eliot" on Freenode.
21:06:54 <oerjan> elliott: when i become world dictator, i can prohibit anyone but you from being named elliott, if you like. ok maybe i'll exempt conal.
21:07:06 <elliott> oerjan: thank you, that would be wonderful
21:07:15 <shachaf> oerjan: What about elliottt?
21:07:32 <itidus22> my intuition tells me that computation doesn't happen without some sentient being having been responsible for it.. but my intuition isn't so great.
21:07:47 <shachaf> And elliottcable, I guess. I mean, where would we be without elliottcable?
21:08:07 <ais523> hmm, are there any elliots around? or eliotts?
21:08:16 <ais523> wow, I'm so used to our elliott that both those spellings look incredibly wrong
21:08:29 <elliott> That's because they are wrong.
21:08:32 <oerjan> itidus22: note that some physicists propose that the entire _universe_ is just computation...
21:09:44 <itidus22> i understand it to be the case that the universe isn't chaos. i guess computation is constrained by the same lack of chaos
21:10:31 <itidus22> hmmm... every fact in the world is like a piece of a crossword puzzle
21:10:44 <itidus22> which makes it sort of possible to infer one fact from another
21:11:08 <itidus22> whereas, if each fact was truely arbitrary you couldn't really make progress in finding other facts
21:11:27 <oerjan> itidus22: um the word chaos nowadays has a technical mathematical meaning which shows up in many phenomena, like e.g. the weather.
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21:12:09 <itidus22> yeah i have these ideas which i don't know the correct names for
21:12:26 <Ngevd> I've been making Truth-machines
21:13:17 <oklopol> i should probably get more serious about the development of fartboob, sofar i just have . and , and [ and ], they're boob, fart, tits and poop, but i'm kind of stuck here
21:13:55 <elliott> oklopol: assign <>+- to the same word
21:14:04 <elliott> which is actually used is deduced from context
21:14:17 <oerjan> itidus22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness_of_Mathematics_in_the_Natural_Sciences may be relevant (note i haven't read it myself)
21:14:25 <oklopol> that's actually an awesome idea
21:14:40 <elliott> oerjan: i think the term here is "enabler"
21:14:59 <itidus22> like, i guess with a cellular automata, on an nth iteration you can make some predictions about the previous iteration.. if its alive now then it must have had either 2 or 3 live neighbors last iteration
21:15:26 <oerjan> elliott: hey if he actually read such stuff he might start getting deeper ideas
21:16:15 <elliott> oerjan: unlike you to be so optimistic :)
21:16:46 <itidus22> so, if you take a game of life you could use it like a crossword puzzle to try and guess what the previous iteration was
21:16:56 <itidus22> that could be a kind of sudoku-like game
21:17:11 <elliott> oerjan: see, it's much easier just to move on to something else.
21:18:14 <itidus22> all phenomena in the world have this aspect that you can learn about a second thing by studying the first thing
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21:20:16 <itidus22> anyway computation is predictable enough that they are able to crack codes
21:21:57 <elliott> it would really help to learn before trying to convey
21:23:52 <Taneb> I've got a Truth-machine in constantinople
21:24:45 <oerjan> elliott: erm the ==Introduction== section in Brainfuck constants was put there because of the general editing problem.
21:25:15 <oerjan> otherwise it's awkward to edit that part.
21:26:01 <oerjan> (not impossible, there's a general §ion=0 trick but not all people may know about that.)
21:26:46 <elliott> oerjan: the editing problem is gone
21:26:55 <elliott> I suppose it might still be annoying for IE users
21:27:17 <itidus22> oerjan: one of my axioms in reasoning about the universe is that another concious being can't divide my conciousness in such a way that they partake in it
21:27:33 <oerjan> from your table edit, i take it that section name problem is also gone?
21:27:42 <elliott> dunno what problem it is but I fixed the TOC
21:28:03 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, you could add a link [{{fullurl:Brainfuck constants|action=edit|section=0}} Edit this introduction] or whatever
21:28:12 <elliott> but it works fine in my browser; are you sure your IE has problems with it nowadays?
21:29:26 <oerjan> elliott: your TOC fix was probably because the new mediawiki does _not_ have that strange section renaming stuff, so you had to change the names there but that means the old problem no longer applies
21:29:54 <elliott> I suppose old MW did weird things with sections with numeric names or something
21:29:55 <mRoman> What about an esolang based on longest common substring.
21:30:00 <mRoman> only the longest common substring is executed.
21:30:11 <itidus22> that even if the entire state of the universe were identical for each of us... there is no guarantee we would experience the same thing
21:30:32 <itidus22> theres just no way yet to prove it either way
21:30:41 <elliott> jilffdgjkljfld;jgksdfhg;'sdlk;dfjljk
21:31:14 <elliott> oerjan: i was thinking about applying brute-force to the problem of shortening some of the brainfuck constants.
21:31:17 <elliott> since they're hand-written, right?
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21:32:51 <elliott> the shortest programs there already establish an upper-bound on length, two of the instructions are irrelevant, and things like [] can be pruned outright, so it seems like it would be possible to constrain things enough that random generation of programs is productive
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21:33:50 <olsner> might be short enough to allow exhaustive search
21:33:54 <oerjan> elliott: ok the page saved fine
21:34:10 <olsner> and when you have some programs, you get some solutions for the larger constants for free
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21:34:24 <elliott> olsner: definitely not short enough
21:34:32 <elliott> some of the programs are 17 chars long
21:34:49 <elliott> 6^17 = a few fucktons; OK, you can disregard anything with unbalanced loops, anything with ][, []
21:34:59 <elliott> but I'm sceptical you'd be able to get it down to brute-forcing range
21:35:11 <oerjan> i thought i read the wrapping versions _had_ been exhaustively searched
21:35:20 <elliott> a cite for that would be nice :P
21:35:56 <olsner> 6^17 is only like 2^44
21:36:02 <elliott> i mean they _look_ pretty optimal
21:36:13 <elliott> i'm not any good at intuitive sizes of powers :(
21:36:33 <olsner> neither am I, so I looked it up
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21:36:48 <oerjan> elliott: it was probably mentioned on the talk page
21:37:10 <Phantom___Hoover> Ahahaha, the neutrino results were apparently because of a misconnected cable.
21:37:15 <oerjan> looks like Calamari is the one to ask
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21:37:27 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:38:12 <elliott> oerjan: nothing on the talk page
21:38:15 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: seriously?
21:38:33 <elliott> oerjan: oh well "I can generate the non-wrapping versions with my program so you don't have to do them by hand." doesn't imply brute-force to me
21:38:41 <elliott> oerjan: most of the non-wrapping ones follow an obvious pattern, iirc
21:38:45 <elliott> probably some multiplication + addition
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21:39:47 <Phantom___Hoover> Well, there are reports of an optical cable in the clock connection being loosly-connected to something else, which would cause the 60ns lead, but I'm not sure whether it was actually in the setup they used or if it's a plausible reason.
21:40:07 <elliott> oerjan: anyway I suppose it's only worth bothering if I can think of a decent algorithm to generate a random BF program that omits all those "silly" things
21:40:13 <elliott> without restricting the program structure beyond that
21:40:21 <oerjan> elliott: well i generated some of them with a haskell program
21:40:43 <elliott> i doubt haskell would be fast enough for brute-forcing these :)
21:40:55 <oerjan> elliott: no i mean, some of the non-wrapping ones
21:41:30 <oerjan> in fact i made an improvement but never included the results from that
21:42:01 <elliott> hmm, I suppose something like bifro could work for generating them, but would probably be very inefficient
21:42:12 <elliott> what's the longest wrapping constant on there?
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21:44:12 <elliott> 2230 years if it takes a ms to evaluate a given program and there's no delay in-between
21:44:44 <elliott> ofc restricting to valid, "non-stupid" BF programs should cut down the space massively
21:44:55 <elliott> but it needs to be done "inherently" rather than filtering after-the-fact or there'll be no gain
21:45:19 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: "At the AAAS meeting's discussion, CERN's director of research, Sergio Bertolucci, placed his bet on what the results would be: "I have difficulty to believe it, because nothing in Italy arrives ahead of time.""
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21:46:12 <oerjan> well no consecutive +- or >< for a start
21:47:08 <elliott> basically we need a state machine that only produces non-stupid BF programs :P
21:47:17 <oerjan> which means it's at most 5^18, really
21:47:23 <elliott> (i.e. + goes to a state without - as an option)
21:47:50 <elliott> but again, the problem is writing a generator for this
21:47:55 <oerjan> oh and really 17... you don't want the solutions that are just as long as the old ones
21:49:07 <oerjan> elliott: StateT Int [] is what i used in the haskell program, something similar should be appropriate here too
21:50:10 <oerjan> length of what i got so far
21:50:22 <elliott> I think all we need is a grammar for non-stupid BF programs
21:50:28 <elliott> which would then be trivial to turn into an efficient random generator
21:52:22 <oerjan> well you cannot start with a loop
21:52:28 <elliott> http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/01/28/generating-random-sentences-from-a-context-free-grammar/
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21:54:08 <itidus22> this is what i came up with the other day.. (possibly on topic) .. i quickly gave up my line of thought.. http://pastie.org/3435222
21:54:31 <olsner> starting with anything else than at least one + is probably pointless
21:54:59 <oerjan> well there is the question of what cell you start or end in
21:56:25 <elliott> olsner: erm what about a -
21:56:38 <elliott> that's the shortest way to get 255, for example
21:56:48 <olsner> oh, are we assuming wrapping?
21:56:56 <elliott> for this exercise, yes, since the programs are shorter
21:57:00 <elliott> and a > appears at the start of many of the wrapping programs
21:57:05 <elliott> +-> seems like a reasonable start set
21:57:11 <elliott> namely, the only reasonable one
21:58:09 <olsner> alright, then - is not pointless... but is > not pointless?
21:58:26 <olsner> for keeping the first cell at 0?
21:58:30 <elliott> no, because you can use it as scratch space later
22:00:13 <elliott> oerjan: anyway it doesn't sound that hard to come up with a reasonable grammar, I think
22:01:15 <oerjan> +>++<+ is also sort of unnecessary
22:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: ooh how long until we get to a^nb^nc^n
22:02:32 <oerjan> hm i think having anything other than those disallowed pairings and matching []'s may be overkill?
22:02:51 <oerjan> (also not starting in [)
22:04:14 <elliott> P0 = '+' P1Add | '-' P1Sub | '>' P1Fwd
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Add = '+' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']'
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Sub = '-' ... | '>' ... | '[' ... ']'
22:04:14 <elliott> P1Fwd = '+' ... | '-' ... | '>' ...
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22:07:57 <oerjan> is it clear that we can assume loops are balanced?
22:10:06 <elliott> oerjan: it sounds like the kind of thing that is reasonable to assume in hand-written programs, but there might be some really bizarre programs that take advantage of not using balanced loops
22:10:18 <elliott> the kinds of things a human would never write :P
22:10:24 <elliott> presumably we want to set a limit on the number of cells used
22:10:46 <olsner> do unbalanced loops even work?
22:11:16 <olsner> I mean, can you do something useful with them?
22:12:31 <elliott> olsner: well the point of applying brute force to the problem is to remove human preconceptions :P
22:12:46 <olsner> alright, go ahead then :)
22:14:07 <itidus22> for once i almost understand the topic
22:15:35 <elliott> oerjan: hm all the generated constants use 2 cells or less, right?
22:17:13 <oerjan> for wrapping, i think so.
22:17:42 <elliott> oerjan: that makes testing the candidates really easy, then
22:17:46 <elliott> as far as memory/cpu requirements go
22:18:14 <olsner> especially memory, you'll only need like 19 bytes
22:18:26 <oerjan> it also makes unbalanced loops _very_ unlikely to help, iirc my 3-cell bf musings.
22:19:02 <elliott> oerjan: right. but i'm not sure how much you gain from leaving them out, really
22:19:18 <itidus22> ultimately this topic leads into protein folding i think.. first by considering distributed processing.. then considering benefit to humanity.. and existant projects trying to find things via brute force
22:19:39 <elliott> oerjan: a benefit of restricting to balanced loops would be that an AST could be built as the program is generated
22:19:51 <elliott> as in, like the fancy interpreters that store balanced loops as a few integers
22:20:00 <elliott> those could be generated directly, skipping the parsing stage
22:20:43 <olsner> you'll need to unparse to compare the length though
22:21:04 <elliott> olsner: well the idea is that you'd track that in the generator itself...
22:25:41 <elliott> oerjan: btw i was just curious as to whether you were planning to write a Truth-machine in itflabtijtslwi from what you said; if not I might have a go at it
22:25:56 <itidus22> a thought occurs to me of a neural network which has been trained by a large set of useful real world bf programs
22:27:32 <itidus22> and more potently if you were to feed such a neural network all the source code on the internet in a given language
22:29:47 <itidus22> which would collect all of humanitys ignorance .. i uhh... yeah disregard
22:31:56 <oerjan> i vote itidus22 "least likely to accidentally create an evil humanity-destroying ai" on the channel.
22:32:11 <oerjan> wait, scratch "accidentally"
22:32:40 <elliott> oerjan: ok i'll take that as a no then
22:34:57 <oerjan> well afaik there are just two people who have written looping /// / itflabtijtslwi programs so far, so more are needed.
22:35:13 <oerjan> (Nthern being the other one.)
22:35:16 <elliott> if I write one, will you golf it? :P
22:35:44 <elliott> hm what's the file extension for itflabtijtslwi
22:36:00 <oerjan> you know me, i'm likely to format it with better indentation.
22:36:11 <oerjan> .itf is what i've used, i think
22:37:36 <elliott> oerjan: hm i am not sure it is possible at all
22:37:45 <elliott> because you have to replace 1 with... wait, no
22:37:49 <elliott> i forgot you could use delimiters
22:38:13 <oerjan> otherwise the rot13 program wouldn't have worked either...
22:38:15 <elliott> GGIGG/<0>/0//<1>/111111.../<I>
22:38:37 <elliott> so now the problem is reduced to "write a slashes program that prints 1 forever". ok, that sounds doable
22:39:33 <elliott> oerjan: i was just trying to delude myself :(
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22:39:39 <elliott> i'm not going to have to generate this, am I? :P
22:39:46 <oerjan> golfing: remove the >'s
22:40:48 <oerjan> elliott: just use a main loop template and replace the innards?
22:40:56 <elliott> i don't even know what the main loop templates are
22:40:59 <elliott> and finding out would be cheating
22:41:36 <elliott> i have never written a (non-extremely-trivial) /// program before.
22:42:15 <oerjan> well if you don't know the basic _principle_ i invented for making a nice main loop, then you might have some trouble.
22:42:35 <elliott> i know it involves dequoting to replicate source
22:42:55 <elliott> (///: succeeding where malbolge failed?)
22:43:36 <elliott> ok but this is literally just X -> 1X so I refuse to believe it's that difficult
22:44:09 <elliott> ok, the first problem I run into is that I have no idea how to "copy" more than one character.
22:44:51 * oerjan metaphorically gets popcorn
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22:45:26 <elliott> /Y/<copy of these two lines>X/
22:45:45 <elliott> is this on the right track, apart from the part where the <>s will require a complete restructuring? :P
22:46:36 <kallisti> Just to remind you that Google has initiated a competition for Programmers and Engineers to work together to solve Atlanta's traffic problems. The first meeting is tomorrow when Google and someone from the Atlanta Regional Commission will explain the competition. If you are a serious programmer, this challenge is for you.
22:47:06 <oerjan> kallisti: you'll probably be ironically caught in a traffic jam on the way
22:47:52 <kallisti> so probably stuck in traffic afterwards.
22:47:52 <oerjan> elliott: let's say that i don't recognize my own idea in that yet.
22:47:56 <kallisti> with some mild traffic before.
22:48:04 <kallisti> Atlanta has /horrible/ traffic.
22:48:12 <elliott> oerjan: ok how about this (ignoring newlines)
22:48:21 <elliott> /ME/quoted version of these three lines/
22:48:46 <kallisti> http://savvyatlanta.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/intersec.jpg <-- look at this
22:48:49 <elliott> I would store those three lines in the pre-quoted form
22:48:56 <elliott> and unescape them at runtime to make them "active"
22:49:14 <kallisti> that's what happens when three major interstate highways intersect on the perimeter of Atlanta.
22:49:35 <itidus22> why do they intersect in the one point?
22:49:49 <itidus22> its like a large hadron collider :d
22:49:53 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, vaguely
22:50:16 <kallisti> 75 cuts through the middle of Georgia going from Florida all the way up to (I think) Maine?
22:50:31 <oerjan> i'm not sure why you'd want to copy the 1 separately, though
22:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: erm hm as opposed to what?
22:50:53 <kallisti> 85 kind of goes diagonally through the Atlanta to the northeast
22:51:03 <kallisti> and the 285 surrounds the perimeter of Atlanta
22:51:09 <kallisti> so... I think they kind of have to intersect somewhere...
22:51:16 <oerjan> elliott: just include it directly in the pre-quoted program
22:51:29 <elliott> /ME/1quoted version of these two lines/
22:51:37 <itidus22> they should forget all the bridges and just put in a giant round-a-bout
22:52:05 <oerjan> elliott: yep, afa the 1 goes
22:52:12 <elliott> this can't possibly work :(
22:52:51 <elliott> /ME/1quoted version//XX/Y//Y/MEX\X/XX
22:52:56 <elliott> starting to look right? :P
22:53:22 <itidus22> http://www.terrain.org/articles/2/siegman.htm :-D
22:53:59 <elliott> ok so the basic structure would be
22:54:12 <elliott> + whatever machinery is necessary to get the quoting going
22:54:12 <kallisti> spaghetti junction is 285 and 85
22:54:31 <ais523> oh, hmm, they think they figured out the neutrino thing, apparently the cable they were using to calibrate the clocks against GPS was faulty
22:54:41 <ais523> and they think that might be responsible for the apparently going too fast
22:55:30 <kallisti> -shrug- it's a complicated experiment.
22:55:52 <elliott> itidus22: it would have been embarrassing if they said "we think neutrinos are going ftl"
22:57:00 <kallisti> it's also not really embarassing because they heavily downplayed it and immediately double-checked everything.
22:57:33 <oerjan> elliott: i think you are missing an important idea, which will become apparent once you try to flesh out the details.
22:57:55 <elliott> oerjan: why don't you tell me what the important idea is :P
22:57:59 <kallisti> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=atlanta+traffic+spaghetti+junction&hl=en&ll=33.892523,-84.257562&spn=0.009939,0.021136&sll=33.808535,-84.387016&sspn=0.159179,0.338173&gl=us&hq=traffic+spaghetti+junction&hnear=Atlanta,+Fulton,+Georgia&t=m&z=16
22:58:18 <itidus22> now just a few jeff goldblum logical leaps from ftl to /// and it will all be resolved
22:58:23 <kallisti> for the xkcd traffic engineering prank comic
22:58:29 <kallisti> Randall should have just drew this.
22:59:31 <itidus22> kallisti: i still say round-a-bout :->
22:59:40 <kallisti> yeah Americans are afraid of those.
22:59:43 <oerjan> elliott: you need to copy your quoted program to two different spots, and then handle those diffently to produce both the program to run directly and the next pre-quoted version
23:00:04 <kallisti> where you literally drive through an intersection of two roads and hope everyone is paying attention
23:00:20 <itidus22> i don't drive.. can't really comment
23:00:32 <kallisti> (seriously they've conducted polls on opinions about roundabouts)
23:00:44 <elliott> oerjan: yes, and it is the "copying a block of text that I can't embed to two places" bit I can't figure out :(
23:02:10 <itidus22> kallisti: i think the trouble with a roundabout is you can't really arrive at it through engineering
23:02:43 <itidus22> it's so heavily based on understanding how a group of humans will react to a roundabout in hindsight
23:02:54 <oerjan> elliott: erm what do you mean
23:03:14 <kallisti> traffic signals are like mutexes, whereas roundabouts are more like... wait what is a concurrency abstraction that fits a roundabout?
23:03:24 <itidus22> its like if you were to have an intersection generation grammar you could avoid human preconceptions about what is a good design
23:03:54 <oerjan> !slashes /X/Copying to two places in \\\/\\\/\\\/ is easy/X X
23:03:57 <EgoBot> Copying to two places in /// is easy Copying to two places in /// is easy
23:04:49 <itidus22> its easy once someone else does the r & d
23:04:56 <elliott> !slashes /X/backslash: \///X/y/X
23:05:25 <elliott> oerjan: this is... incredibly difficult to reason about :P
23:05:30 <itidus22> kind of like building a 3ghz computer is easy provided you live in 2012
23:05:59 <oerjan> elliott: you don't say :D
23:06:45 <elliott> is there not some magic trick for a constant infinite loop? :P
23:07:06 <oerjan> unless you want one which only burns CPU
23:10:26 <itidus22> so it is interesting to see that tcness does not imply any magic tricks
23:14:27 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to ug.
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23:15:45 <oerjan> <elliott> Is this... concrete evidence that oerjan actually exists?! <-- obviously fake
23:17:10 <oerjan> yeah but that was before i knew the universe was just a figment of my imagination.
23:17:55 <phantgarino> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kbMF1GF2A
23:19:23 <elliott> it's up to scotland to decide :D
23:19:52 <phantgarino> Obviously, we have much experience with drinking.
23:23:39 <kallisti> itidus22: I thought it was just based on the idea of allowing traffic flow to contiue from all intersecting roadways without sudden build-ups (which is theoretically shown to reduce overall traffic flow). Also it has the benefit of allowing more than 2 roads to intersect.
23:24:15 <kallisti> also it reduces removes an entire category of traffic accidents.
23:25:07 <kallisti> intersection-related accidents are very frequent.
23:25:13 * oerjan swats ais523 for abbreviating the project which shall not be abbreviated -----###
23:25:36 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't, I simply specified a name by which it wasn't referred to
23:25:48 <ais523> pretty much everything said in the channel is a name that doesn't refer to that project
23:26:39 <kallisti> would you guys hate me if I started using Lisp-style ' to refer to words themselves rather than the concept being referred to by the word?
23:27:18 <HackEgo> verno pun ful cowl nifeenwe pie slitte tra swinm peirof woodp itn vestion woeda rate poli sat sii dendric dro kobe dispi ubsicifice habi launsell
23:27:19 <elliott> Have you heard of quote marks?
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23:28:00 <kallisti> elliott: yeah, but I'm not familiar with "heard"
23:28:19 <kallisti> what's wrong with 'vestion instead?
23:28:42 <kallisti> actually "dendric" has shown up multiple times and I think is an actual word.
23:29:35 <kallisti> Google suggested "dendritic" but looking up dendric also has people using it.
23:30:40 <phantgarino> kallisti, yes, we get it, you don't like Skyrim.
23:31:07 <kallisti> sorry I won't reply to things brought up by other people.
23:32:29 -!- elliott has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
23:32:31 <phantgarino> There's a Thribbian eulogy in here somewhere but I can't quite get it.
23:32:53 <elliott> At least he was 93. That's pretty darn old.
23:33:25 <kallisti> I hope Grigori Perelman comes back one day and is like "I proved P=NP guys. I'm going to disappear again because I hate the mathematics community."
23:33:56 <phantgarino> Maybe something with de Bruijn indices and 93 or something?
23:34:06 <elliott> kallisti: I don't think Grigori Perelman is a hermit.
23:34:23 <kallisti> well he didn't literally disappear from society.
23:34:29 <elliott> "He had previously turned down a prestigious prize from the European Mathematical Society,[26] allegedly saying that he felt the prize committee was unqualified to assess his work, even positively.[27]"
23:34:44 <elliott> phantgarino: Give me a good reason not to take Perelman as my hero???
23:35:06 <kallisti> but he declared that he wasn't going to be "practicing math" or something to that effect.
23:35:07 <phantgarino> I don't like him; I think it's my general dislike of geniuses.
23:35:09 <kallisti> even though I think he still is...
23:35:38 <elliott> kallisti: It seems he quit professional mathematics but is still working on things privately.
23:35:44 <elliott> "Quitting" is a bit of a nebulous concept in that context.
23:36:10 <elliott> I mean, Grothendieck has been rather more thorough about it.
23:36:23 <kallisti> he quit being part of the mathematics community, essentially.
23:37:22 <kallisti> I wonder what it's like to cease practicing mathematics.
23:37:48 <kallisti> as that would involve computing sums.
23:39:08 <kallisti> I guess there's a difference between "practicing mathematics" and "performing computations"
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23:48:58 <itidus22> it is like... the theist (presumably) believes that the athiest is simply unaware of god
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23:50:45 <itidus22> do i wanna do this? .. more likely the theist is compelled to correct the athiest for his blasphemy at not talking about god more often
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23:51:43 <oklopol> could you explain the analogy
23:52:00 <itidus22> ignoring that, the mathematician may see people calculating things and consider that they are doing math and just not aware of it
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23:52:59 <oklopol> that's the opposite of what i feel
23:53:14 <oklopol> i feel that they are aware that they are doing math even though they aren't
23:54:04 <itidus22> theres a possible conflict when two systems of categorization of everything are in play
23:54:30 <elliott> ;'dldg'guld][tgklogpfh;et4'w
23:55:25 <oklopol> well i agree but i don't see your point
23:55:45 <oklopol> that was to itidus22, elliott's point is clear :D
23:55:49 <itidus22> like if i said, your god was merely the servant of my god
23:56:47 <oklopol> then you'd be wrong because my god is better
23:58:31 <oklopol> math would make an awesome religion
23:59:26 <itidus22> ok uh.. reformulating... it is possible to perform computations without understanding them
23:59:58 <itidus22> and practicing mathematics seems to be one way of understanding computations among other things