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00:03:26 <itidus22> my internal conceptions at play are really quite a mess
00:17:50 <itidus22> elliott: i first started thinking about random generation of useful things with graphics. i quickly realized the problem though when i found out that in an 8x8 grid that 2^64 possible graphics were possible
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00:18:46 <elliott> assuming you only care about b&w
00:19:03 <itidus22> next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe.
00:20:01 <itidus22> one could consider tile-space in graphics.. and therefore remove all toroidal symmetries
00:20:41 <itidus22> tile-space is a bad neologism.. but imagining the 8x8 grid existing as a repeated tile
00:21:22 <pikhq> No more Flash on Linux for not-Chrome.
00:22:05 <pikhq> Gregor: They're deprecating the NSAPI plugin entirely in favor of the Pepper API.
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00:22:15 <pikhq> Google Chrome is the only browser that implements that on any OS.
00:22:17 <elliott> They're only distributing the Pepper-based version, and they say they're only distributing it as a bundle with Chrome, but that'll end up amounting to a Pepper<->NSAPI bridge being created and a script to extract Flash from the Chrome distribution.
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00:22:40 <elliott> The bridge should be trivial enough if they only care about Flash, since obviously they'll have just ported from NSAPI to Pepper.
00:22:56 <elliott> Also, all that only applies to Linux still.
00:23:02 <oklopol> "<itidus22> next i suppose one removes the symmetries. i don't understand this process very well though. but i did manage it for the first 3 moves of tic tac toe." see group theory
00:23:16 <Gregor> That's ... a weird move. I don't think Google is even particularly interested in trying to take Firefox's lead in Linux ...
00:23:25 <Gregor> (If it still has a lead)
00:23:26 <pikhq> elliott: It requires NaCl.
00:23:49 <elliott> pikhq: Which is open source.
00:23:58 <Gregor> Buhwhu? People use native client???
00:24:14 <elliott> Gregor: It's Google, of course they use $GOOGLE_THING.
00:24:43 <pikhq> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
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00:25:19 <pikhq_> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:25:24 <pikhq_> It'd be hardly any effort to just continue supporting it.
00:25:26 <elliott> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:25:52 <Gregor> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:26:11 <elliott> Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI...
00:26:22 -!- Gregor has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Worst part is, Pepper is based on NSAPI... | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
00:26:27 <pikhq_> Yes, my connection drops like crazy.
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00:30:36 <itidus21> thats for all those bad references to hitchhikers
00:32:29 <itidus21> anyway i feel rather clever to figure out filtering toroidal symmetry for tile-graphics generation.
00:34:03 <itidus21> even i can think up such things given enough time doing absolutely nothing at home
00:35:22 <itidus21> its not important i know, just a quiet window to do my ranting
00:35:53 <oklopol> seriously group theory has some awesome symmetry stuff
00:36:35 <itidus21> when i worked out the first 3 moves for tic tac toe.. and i looked it up i was quite amazed i got it all right.
00:36:38 <oklopol> i'll also link here in case other's haven't had the pleasure to read this http://www.math.hkbu.edu.hk/~ttang/newspaper/funnyarticle11.pdf
00:37:27 * oerjan wonders who edited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
00:38:11 <oerjan> I KNOW YOUR IP *MWAHAHAHA*
00:38:22 <oerjan> i guess that's mutual.
00:38:26 <elliott> oerjan: you like redivider right
00:38:48 <oerjan> um i don't recall what it was like
00:38:58 <elliott> it's the parser combinator tarpit
00:39:07 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
00:39:12 <elliott> and most relevantly http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#Redivider
00:39:34 <elliott> oh and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider#Examples
00:40:05 <oklopol> itidus21: if you want something to do with your brain, you could prove that simplicial complexes occupy the same homotopy equivalence classes as sofic shifts in the weyl topology
00:40:14 <oklopol> i thought i had this but it was too hard
00:40:48 <oklopol> we have the simpler besicovitch case as of yesterday (although i've thought i had it about once a month since september)
00:41:38 <elliott> oerjan: it's really nice because everything is a parser
00:41:42 <elliott> even string literals are parsers
00:41:55 <oklopol> don't you mean it's really GAY because everything is parser
00:41:56 <elliott> it's just all higher-order parsers built up from a few operators
00:42:05 <oklopol> higher-order GAY you mean?
00:42:20 <elliott> also i can't find the ~5-line ski in it that was really nice :(
00:42:27 <itidus21> oklopol: when looking at the 512 tiles that a NES game holds in it's memory at a given moment it got me thinking about the tiles.. so it has a pallete of 2^9 tiles out of a possible 2^64 tiles
00:42:53 <oklopol> so itidus21 and oerjan have the same color
00:43:01 <oklopol> i had the most absurd experience just now.
00:43:32 <ion> Gay still means happy.
00:43:34 <oklopol> (my irc client colors people. i know it's racist but at least no one's black.)
00:44:02 <ion> My terminal’s background color is African-American.
00:44:16 <ion> [polite form]
00:44:44 <oklopol> my background is pitch nigger
00:45:06 <itidus21> so you saw my text in oerjan's color and the whole experience didn't make any sense
00:45:16 <oklopol> itidus21: i thought oerjan said your line
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00:45:28 <oklopol> oerjan does not say something like that out of the blue.
00:45:40 <oklopol> he is very careful about mentioning numbers to me.
00:46:38 <oklopol> anyway i need to sleep so goo night ^^
00:46:50 <itidus21> given that the NES can do vertical and horziontal flipping of tiles it does cut down the set from 2^64 slightly.. but i have no interest in calculating or asking anyone else to calculate how much
00:47:57 <itidus21> actually.. nes tiles are 2 bits which probably means 2^128
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01:19:12 <oerjan> Gregor: it's glass with recycling!
01:20:30 <oerjan> {M[m(_x)0I!0c.?1O!1o.11?22"1"5S!5e.?=/(_x)11?\]} to be precise
01:22:07 * Gregor nods sagely, as if he can actually interpret his own language.
01:25:37 <oerjan> by recycling i mean that i'm using just the one (_x) local name
01:26:40 <oerjan> i'm sure this makes it all that much more readable.
01:35:04 <kallisti> it doesn't look like normal Glass.
01:35:11 <kallisti> maybe I've forgotten some things.
01:35:49 <oerjan> i wrote it more normally first, then figured i could shorten it by using (_x) for everything
01:36:06 <kallisti> the (_x) is what's throwing me off...
01:36:35 <oerjan> i'm basically using it as the variable name for _all_ the objects used, one after the other
01:38:01 <kallisti> Glass is my favorite OO stack language.
01:38:03 <Gregor> Now why did I ever give you local variables X-P
01:38:22 <Gregor> Faaaaairly certain that Glass is the /only/ OO stack language ...
01:50:15 <kallisti> oh wait Parrot is a register machine.
01:50:33 <kallisti> I wouldn't be surprised if "stack based OO language" described a lot of virtual machine languages.
01:51:06 <kallisti> you should make Glass the VM for Plof. :>
01:51:20 <kallisti> with some... slight modifications
01:51:22 <Gregor> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno.
01:53:39 <kallisti> how does one go about translating a high level language to a stack language.
01:54:10 <kallisti> translating to a register machine seems a bit more natural to me, due to the similarity to machine code.
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02:26:46 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
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03:04:42 <tswett> Oh butt, I've forgotten how beautiful Glass is.
03:04:58 <tswett> (Yes, this is my new expletive. I butt to use it at least once in every message.)
03:05:59 <tswett> Okay, you're defining a new class called M, with one function, called m, which does... that.
03:06:55 <tswett> Global variables are like THIS, class- or object-local variables like this, and stack variables like _this...
03:08:17 <tswett> So we push the name _v, then push the name V, then... okay, (_v)V! pretty much means "create a V named _v".
03:09:22 <tswett> Then (_v)n.? calls its n function, creating a new name and pushing it onto the stack...
03:09:51 <tswett> Then we create an O called o_ and call its o function to output the name of the variable.
03:13:49 <tswett> Okay, there is one feature that Glass MUST HAVE.
03:14:15 <tswett> A class that you can use to push the current continuation onto the stack.
03:15:34 <tswett> So, uh... next time I write a Glass implementation, it's going to have that.
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03:16:23 <tswett> Y'know. I just might implement Glass in Lua. The implementation will work by compiling the Glass program into Lua code and evaluating it.
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03:17:49 <Gregor> There, rewrote http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
03:22:11 <tswett> Its name is... the letter L in a math-calligraphic style?
03:22:32 <tswett> How come ℒ is in Unicode but a plain old italic L isn't?
03:23:17 <Gregor> Fancy L is just ... Fancy L.
03:26:50 <Gregor> I also set up a redirect from the page "Fancy L" (and "Fancy-L") so I wouldn't have to figure out how to type it.
03:27:17 <tswett> Have you set up a redirect from the page "SCRIPT CAPITAL L"?
03:27:47 <Gregor> Nobody calls it that, it's Fancy L :)
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03:33:41 <tswett> And a redirect from the page "$\mathcal{L}$"?
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03:52:13 <itidus21> ahh NOW i get why it's called fancy L
03:52:39 <itidus21> thats absurdly literal interpretation of fancy L
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05:46:53 <itidus21> the real purpose is that i thought to myself.. what is the number 1 reason i don't do much reading
05:47:07 <itidus21> and i thought, honestly there is very little empty desk space in my room
05:48:17 <itidus21> i have these weird projects going in my room like collecting local newspapers
05:50:18 <itidus21> i had my pc up on a desk for easy access to the back but it seemed not worth it in long run.. space better used as an actual desk
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08:21:59 <ais523_> wow, this RNG actually uses string processing
08:26:10 <fizzie> Maybe it has been written by a TCL guy? Everything's a string, and all that.
08:28:03 <fizzie> Also is it a PRNG instead of a RNG? (This message sponsored by the "Exactness in Expression 2012" campaign.)
08:32:34 <itidus21> No, this RNG makes numbers exist.. it doesn't select them as such.
08:33:14 <pikhq_> fizzie: Tclers don't generally do that *outside* of Tcl.
08:33:30 <pikhq_> Because holy *crap* it's hard to do Tclish tricks with strings outside of Tcl. :)
08:34:19 <itidus21> i mean where do you think the integers came from?
08:34:34 <fizzie> Perhaps a "hard-core Tcler", then. I'm sure there are some. Tattooed all over with Tcl code and so on.
08:36:04 <itidus21> so hardcore they illegally change their name to some tcl code
08:37:16 <ais523_> olsner: it's a middle-square RNG, working in decimal
08:37:24 <ais523_> and it's in one of NVidia's CUDA examples
08:38:06 <olsner> not only string processing ... but on a GPU?
08:38:16 <ais523_> it's in the CPU portion of the code
08:38:37 <ais523_> CUDA doesn't have a string type, or any type vaguely corresponding to it
08:38:52 <ais523_> about the closest you could get would be int[N] for some constant N
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09:01:55 <ais523_> also, how am I meant to search for the fields in a data type called cData?
09:02:11 <ais523_> I keep getting results for CDATA instead
09:02:35 <fizzie> Apparently Finland's (ex- or soon-to-be-ex-)presiden't husband looking as if he'd be staring at the bosom of Denmark's crown princess qualifies as "international news"; the headlines here (there's a stand at the lunch-place) have now dutifully reported that UK's The Sun and some "Jay Leno" dude have now laughed at him.
09:07:02 <Ngevd> Meh, the Sun report anything.
09:08:05 <ais523_> Have I Got News For You were laughing at it too
09:15:34 <Ngevd> I've made a different Thue Truth-machine
09:15:48 <Ngevd> It's one character shorter, but can use more memory
09:17:34 <Ngevd> Strictly speaking, it may never output 1 at all
09:19:01 <Ngevd> Actually, I prefer the one that I didn't write
09:19:15 <ais523_> why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t?
09:19:16 <Ngevd> Also, DMM hasn't replied to my email
09:19:23 <ais523_> that's bizarre, it should just use ptrdiff_t
09:19:33 <ais523_> or an equivalent, like int
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09:42:00 <Ngevd> Added his version of the Whenever Truth-machine
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10:06:26 <Sgeo> Ngevd, kallisti has been updated.
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11:24:22 <ais523> security update in CVS? what?
11:24:32 <ais523> I'd assume that'd be stable by now…
11:34:24 <ais523> it's installed here, which is reasonable, as I guess it's a dependency of something, and I might even have had to download CVS repos on occasoin
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12:03:15 <Gregor> ais523: Can you delete "Facny L" for me kthx >_>
12:04:04 <Gregor> Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B
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12:25:15 <fizzie> Newsflash: Russia wins the race to Singularity. (Source: Usenet.)
12:26:50 <fizzie> "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka."
12:29:21 <fizzie> (For the full story, see http://sprunge.us/ZHNX)
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12:51:44 <ais523> also, I would be working on this OpenGL program I have to get done tomorrow, except that OpenGL has inexplicably stopped working in the computer labs
12:51:44 <ais523> or at least, I assume it's responsible, the sample programs I ran to check work if and only if they don't use it
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13:40:57 <ais523> hmm… I once invented a custom version of base64 that used ' and " as the non-alphanumeric characters
13:41:19 <ais523> because they had the same wrapping properties as letters and digits, meaning that they filled text boxes neatly
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14:05:07 <fizzie> There are quite a few of variants that only differ w.r.t. the two odd ones.
14:06:52 <fizzie> RFC 4648 has the "URL and Filename Safe" version with -_ instead of +/.
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15:03:07 <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
15:03:11 <Gregor> Surely somebody's already done that though?
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15:23:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
15:23:52 <Gregor> <Gregor> Surely somebody's already done that though?
15:26:28 <Gregor> (Copypasta'd for ais523's input)
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15:55:42 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, PDA-with-halting-oracle seems less interesting than PDA-with-Turing-oracle
15:55:48 <ais523> although I'm not entirely sure what a Turing oracle would do
15:57:08 <Gregor> I think that for any reasonable definition of "Turing oracle", a halting oracle would be equivalent.
15:57:30 <ais523> no, I mean an oracle that does something that Turing machines can do but PDAs can't
15:57:31 <Gregor> Since you can always inject a "if (state I care about) halt else loop infinitely"
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15:57:37 <ais523> like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle
15:58:20 <Gregor> Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me.
15:59:02 <Gregor> You've got to leapfrog a computational class for it to be interesting to me apparently >_> <_<
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16:53:59 <Gregor> Upon further consideration, what I actually like about my idea is the consideration of whether that would be TC.
16:54:20 <Gregor> Aaaaaand ais is gone again ...
16:58:25 <Taneb> Right, so, if we had Turing-complete language a (say, Lazy K), and push-down automata b (say, Befunge-93) we can create language Γ_(a,b), which is b with the addition of command "£", which takes a string and returns whether it halts when ran as an a program
16:59:20 <Taneb> Is Γ(a,b) Turing complete?
17:00:15 <Gregor> Also, isn't Befunge-93 not even a PDA since it has the fancy L problem even for that? Not all PDAs can be translated into PDAs of a certain fixed size ...
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17:01:08 <Gregor> Any language with fixed dimensions could be at best the fancy L equivalent of some interesting computational class.
17:01:48 <Gregor> Less-than-N-bytes-of-C is fancy-L(Turing machine), and Befunge-93-in-original-dimensional-limits is fancy-L(PDA)
17:01:53 <Taneb> Γ here is short for Γρηγωρ
17:02:25 <Taneb> Which is a transliteration of "Gregor"
17:02:48 <Gregor> (I shouldn't have used 'C' in the above example, let's say less-than-N-bytes-of-Perl, since Perl is so popular to golf)
17:03:08 <Taneb> Which is presumably your name.
17:03:23 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Friendship.
17:05:24 <Friendship> I had a dream in which Weird Al Yankovic, having secretly been publishing theoretical computing research for years under a pseudonym, was receiving the Turing award, and his speech consisted of a video of a cartoon version of him doing strange things then transforming intermittently into a cartoon rabbit with horn-rimmed glasses describing actual (computer) science.
17:05:54 <Taneb> Mister mouse, you have weird dreams
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17:16:08 -!- Friendship has set topic: Nicolaas Govert de Bruijn 1918-2012 | Dennis Ritchie 1941-2011 | John McCarthy 1927-2011 | John Backus 1924-2007 | Kristen Nygaard 1926-2002 | Edsger Dijkstra 1930-2002 | John Cocke 1925-2002 | Ole-Johan Dahl 1931-2002 | Alonzo Church 1903-1995 | Alan Perlis 1922-1990 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has moved servers!.
17:19:16 <Friendship> I never noticed that 2002 was a friggin' terrible year for CS.
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17:23:15 <Friendship> Oh great, so now that graue has given wiki management to elliott, he'll start being a regular on the channel and elliott'll never show up again.
17:36:06 <ais523> admittedly, elliott had left some time before then
17:36:16 <ais523> and only came back to coordinate the wiki move
17:36:26 <ais523> (which has somehow made the channel much more on-topic than it used to be)
17:36:40 <Taneb> As well as the wiki
17:36:56 <ais523> the wiki's always been on-topic, unless you count spambots
17:37:00 <ais523> but it's got a lot more legitimately active
17:38:23 <Friendship> Befunge-93 claims to be a PDA. I dispute this due to its size limitations. I say it's fancy-L(PDA), whatever that means.
17:41:05 <Taneb> It has an unbounded stack
17:44:35 <Friendship> So? You can't represent an arbitrary number of states in bounded program space.
17:46:20 <Taneb> It doesn't need an arbitrary number of states, you just need a number
17:47:05 <Taneb> According to our wiki, it's just a FSA with a stack
17:47:23 <Friendship> But it has to be able to represent /all/ PDA's to be equivalent.
17:48:19 <Friendship> Oh, I misstated myself and misremembered the wiki >_<
17:48:22 <Friendship> "However, the converse is not true; there surely exist some push-down automata which cannot be simulated by any Befunge-93 program (because they contain more states than can be encoded in the 80x25 playfield)."
17:49:32 <Friendship> Oh well, I don't know what I'm talking about, ignore me X-D
17:49:46 <Taneb> Most of the time, you know more than me
17:50:13 <Friendship> I thought that the wiki had claimed that Befunge-93 was PDA-complete, so to speak.
17:50:33 <Taneb> Doesn't it take a Turing machine to be PDA complete?
17:51:09 <Taneb> As in, can interpret any PDA
17:51:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
17:51:27 <Friendship> I don't think that's what "-complete" means, it means that all PDA's can be described by it.
17:51:42 <Friendship> "can interpret" is just a cheap hack to get that, which itself works for TC most of the time.
17:51:46 <Taneb> A PDA can't describe a bigger PDA
17:51:58 <Friendship> Not "a given PDA", just the language "PDA"
17:52:07 <Friendship> The language of PDAs can describe all PDAs.
17:56:21 <Friendship> (I find this similar to how fancy-L languages can describe a particular Turing machine, but not all)
18:05:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: dinner).
18:11:46 <ais523> wow, this new wiki is getting my reactions all wrong
18:11:56 <ais523> I see a new edit, and instinctively go to delete it, and get confused
18:16:16 <Friendship> By the way, I'm inventing the terms (argh I can't type Unicode in this xchat) "fancy-L-equivalent machine", "fancy-L-hard" and "fancy-L-complete"
18:16:28 <Friendship> I feel like the existence of this page needs more press, in the form of categories.
18:20:19 <Friendship> Given that the computational class of ℒ is unclear, but there are languages which are plainly within its computational class, we can create a new (and intentionally ambiguous) computational class to describe it. ℒ-equivalent machines are those abstract machines for which the ability to describe all universal Turing machines is predicated upon the status of input or some other state which may be considered external to the machine proper. The set of ℒ-equ
18:20:19 <Friendship> ivalent machines is clearly a subset of [[Turing machines]], but whether it is a proper subset is a matter of philosophy. A language is said to be ℒ-hard if there exists a program in that language which is in ℒ, and ℒ-complete if it is ℒ-hard and not [[Turing-complete]].
18:20:49 <Friendship> Oh, never mind, it pasted right, my client is just weird X_X
18:26:44 -!- elliott has joined.
18:27:04 <elliott> @tell Gregor "ℒ was originally described to generalize the question raised by Befunge/index.php." not quite true
18:28:51 <Friendship> Oh, it's not indeed, he just brought it to the wiki for that.
18:29:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8264
18:30:11 <elliott> he didn't call it that originally
18:30:16 <Friendship> Hm, first reference to that name is somebody quoting cpressey as saying he'd --- ah X_X
18:30:32 <elliott> also that paste's unicode is broken
18:31:45 <elliott> no, your httpd probably isn't sending a proper content-type
18:31:51 <elliott> you need to append ; encoding=UTF-8 :P
18:32:03 <Friendship> But I'd need to convince hgweb to do that.
18:42:00 <elliott> 09:19:15: <ais523_> why does OpenGL use char* for ptrdiff_t?
18:42:08 <elliott> ais523: opengl predates c99, I'm pretty sure
18:42:16 <ais523> elliott: but it's just a pure type error
18:42:23 <ais523> it's using a pointer type where it should be using an integer type
18:42:28 <ais523> if it was using int or long or something I wouldn't mind
18:42:53 <elliott> ais523: those might not fit the result; (char *) will so long as pointers are integral
18:43:19 <elliott> 12:04:04: <Gregor> Also, do we need a category for "fancy-L-equivalent"? To categorize e.g. Befunge/index.php and HQ9+B
18:43:27 <elliott> Friendship: No, there aren't many of them.
18:45:32 <Friendship> I'm at least going to change the text of HQ9+B so it's not blatantly lying :)
18:46:15 <elliott> 15:03:07: <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
18:46:33 <elliott> Friendship: Machine with only one instruction: check whether a given Underload program halts, print 0 if it doesn't, 1 ifit does.
18:47:18 <Friendship> But what's interesting about mine is that a PDA might (although I'm flying very quickly towards the conclusion that it is not) be sufficient to actually be TC with the addition of that transition statement.
18:47:43 <elliott> 15:57:37: <ais523> like, an a^nb^nc^n oracle
18:47:43 <elliott> 15:58:20: <Gregor> Naw, then that's just one squiggle outside of PDA. That seems much less interesting to me.
18:47:53 <elliott> in the same way that utm+halting oracle is one squiggle outside of tc
18:48:35 <elliott> Friendship: well a halting oracle for utms lets you decide a bunch of things
18:48:41 <elliott> which may be enough to implement complex loops
18:49:05 <ais523> oh, /obviously/ it's TC
18:49:07 <elliott> e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z)
18:49:12 <elliott> and you can easily wrap something in
18:49:15 <ais523> just take your input, halting-oracle it, and go into an infinite loop if it doesn't halt
18:49:18 <elliott> if (halts) { continue } else { loop forever }
18:49:33 <Friendship> ais523: Can-solve-the-halting-problem does not imply TC ...
18:49:36 <ais523> elliott: heh, we both had the same idea at once
18:49:44 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't help you produce output though or w/e
18:49:48 <ais523> Friendship: halts-if-a-given-TM-halts is the definition of TC
18:50:00 <ais523> you could ask about BF-completeness, though
18:50:15 <elliott> with BF-completeness, you only need to be able to get "first char of output" "second char of output" etc.
18:50:18 <elliott> which is <elliott> e.g. you can turn a statement (exists n \in Z, p(n)) where p is decidable into (Maybe Z)
18:50:23 <Friendship> Right, because you can reduce all questions to halting questions, argh.
18:50:30 <elliott> p(n) = n is first char of output of run_bf_program(prog,"")
18:50:38 <elliott> input is a little harder I guess, but sounds perfectly doable
18:51:12 <elliott> Friendship: Also, it's obviously not Turing-complete.
18:51:17 <elliott> Because it can solve the halting problem.
18:51:30 <Friendship> Well, we're still a bit fuzzy on what TC actually means, bu--- yeah.
18:51:36 <elliott> You can't be uncomputable + TC, as we've agreed on :P
18:51:54 <Friendship> Yeah, we agree, but I don't think the community at large agrees.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:02:53: <Gregor> Taneb: Naturally.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:08: <Taneb> Which is presumably your name.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:28: <Friendship> Nope, my real name is Friendship.
18:51:58 <elliott> 17:03:29: <Friendship> And I am magic.
18:52:01 <elliott> Friendship: Logs still broken.
18:52:12 <elliott> Also, the "community at large" is a bunch of idiots creating BF derivatives.
18:52:35 * Friendship proceeds to put that quote on the front page, attributing you.
18:53:11 <elliott> My oppressive regime! Crushed!
18:59:12 <elliott> "Are closures a violation of the functional programming paradigm?"
18:59:30 <elliott> " [...] How is Haskell purely-functional if it supports closures? Don't they break referential transparency?"
19:00:01 <kallisti> sounds like someone is confusing implementation with semantics. >_>
19:00:07 <kallisti> WHAT AN UNTHINKABLE THING TO DO.
19:00:30 <elliott> Yes. That would have you believing seq has side-effects.
19:01:38 <kallisti> I'm kind of at a loss as to how that breaks referential transparency
19:01:41 <kallisti> or how you could think it does.
19:03:42 <kallisti> so I'm kind of at a loss to explain anything right now.
19:05:12 <kallisti> maybe they're confusing referential transparency with "can be used to simulate state"
19:06:03 <elliott> Friendship: I wonder whether fancy-L is a [[Category:Languages]] or a [[Category:Concepts]]...
19:06:46 <elliott> Friendship: Also when you gonna make HQ9+B non-lying :P
19:08:35 <Friendship> Odd, when I run the exact same log handler over the exact same logs, it detects the nick changes properly ...
19:09:02 <Friendship> Sooo there's a bug in the current state of the running log handler but I don't know how to repro it >_<
19:10:09 <kallisti> hack the process bits no problem
19:12:13 <Friendship> Regenerating it on the server still missed the nicks, doing the same thing on my local machine worked no problem.
19:12:25 <ais523> it's not running IE8, is it?
19:13:21 -!- monqy has joined.
19:21:01 <monqy> yes i'd imagine so
19:22:20 <kallisti> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
19:39:41 <Friendship> It got its nick lists from the 353 command from the server, but didn't really understand what was going on if multiple 353s came for the same channel (that is, if the channel was bigger than could be fit in a single message)
19:40:03 <Friendship> Apparently it wasn't logging any big channels before X-D
19:41:05 <elliott> Friendship: I'm sure that means #ai's logs have been broken forever :P
19:41:15 <elliott> (That place is really terrible, you should stop logging it :P)
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:14:17: <tomodo> Im so disappointed with my AI
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:24:35: <DanFrederiksen> :)
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined).
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:25:53: <tomodo> DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:35:03: <DanFrederiksen> that wont be necessary
19:42:17 <elliott> 18:36:23: <tomodo> you're an idiot and a troll
19:42:19 <elliott> 18:36:32: <tomodo> I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon
19:42:44 <elliott> Friendship: On second thoughts, NEVER STOP
19:43:21 <elliott> 18:44:03: <uniqanomaly> tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: <tomodo> I don't like smug people 18:44:55: <tomodo> it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: <DanFrederiksen> you are the troll buddy
19:45:15 <elliott> 19:41:22: <causative> AIXI has unlimited computing power
19:45:16 <elliott> 19:41:35: <causative> it ignores parts of the environment that do not help it predict the future
19:45:16 <elliott> 19:41:56: <thylane> causative You first must by mature in this conversation, and admit qas a mature adult that AIXI is framed in a reinforcement learnign context.
19:45:19 <olsner> meh... (append (quote (1)) (quote (4 5 6))) => (4 5 6)
19:45:34 <elliott> olsner: it's a very small 1
19:45:49 <elliott> 19:44:05: <thylane> causative Just get over this and be a mature adult. You will never ever ever ever have an embodied agent in *this* universe that will pay attention to absolutely everything it sensors can point at. It can't happen. The agent would sit there counting bolts on the side of ship.
19:45:58 -!- glogbackup has left.
19:46:01 <elliott> this is great, <disagreement> -> stop this immaturity already!
19:46:41 <itidus21> <tomodo> i'm not your buddy, guy
19:46:42 <elliott> ok i gotta stop reading #ai logs now...
19:47:28 <fizzie> elliott: ##c: <MaybeJust> tomodo: do you even know what you are saying? or just trolling? <tomodo> MaybeJust: /ignore'd
19:47:48 <monqy> who is this tomodo fellow
19:47:51 <olsner> hmm, maybe I should start that rewrite into Prolog now, and translate it from Prolog after it works
19:48:06 <fizzie> I don't know, but the nick and the "/ignore" so close to each other remindeded.
19:48:07 <elliott> fizzie: Kind of reminds me of someone...
19:48:17 <monqy> im stalkermoding #ai
19:48:25 <elliott> fizzie: I hope it's not the person it reminds me of, though.
19:49:19 <mRoman> Can i set $/ to something that $a = <STDIN>; only reads one character?
19:49:28 <elliott> Oh, they're in #haskell. I guess it might be.
19:49:36 <mRoman> Can I read one character only somehow?
19:49:51 <elliott> mRoman: http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/getc.html?
19:50:10 <kallisti> let me test that I've never actually tried...
19:50:12 <elliott> well i don't know. but they remind me of j-invariant/fax/etc.
19:50:26 <monqy> i don't know any of those :'(
19:50:32 <Friendship> ISTR a classique #esoteric /topic mentioning that the joke language Perl is not on-topic here :)
19:50:41 <elliott> huh, really? I guess they were before your time. (those are the same person)
19:51:06 <kallisti> mRoman: my intuition would lead me to believe that setting $/ to an empty string would make <> work like getc
19:51:36 <kallisti> and if you do set global variables
19:51:55 <kallisti> make sure you make it.. local. :P
19:53:12 <elliott> yay, the first google webmaster tools data came in for esolangs.org!
19:53:25 <kallisti> that will reset $/ to be '' for the duration of the block.
19:54:04 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=remorse
19:54:50 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ix=seb&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=turing+complete
19:54:56 <elliott> Friendship: How are we on the first page of results for turing complete.
19:55:08 <elliott> Albeit below "BF is Turing-complete" :P
19:55:37 -!- tikfreenode has changed nick to Tiktalik.
19:56:06 <elliott> Friendship: Ooh, Wikipedia disagrees with us re: TC.
19:56:18 <elliott> Friendship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Per its definition, TwoDucks is TC but not TE.
19:56:35 <elliott> A computational system that can compute every Turing-computable function is called Turing complete (or Turing powerful). Alternatively, such a system is one that can simulate a universal Turing machine.
19:56:36 <elliott> A Turing-complete system is called Turing equivalent if every function it can compute is also Turing computable; i.e., it computes precisely the same class of functions as do Turing machines. Alternatively, a Turing-equivalent system is one that can simulate, and be simulated by, a universal Turing machine. (All known Turing-complete systems are Turing equivalent, which adds support to the Church–Turing thesis.)
19:56:55 <elliott> But it echoes the definitions in the article's lead.
19:57:14 <elliott> But that was my impression of what TC/TE meant, too.
19:57:32 <elliott> Friendship: I'm unconvinced that the "complete" derives from complexity theory.
19:57:53 <Friendship> I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that it doesn't *shrugs*
19:57:58 <Friendship> But it's the only comparison I know of.
19:58:16 <elliott> People search for "bettereave"? People search for "yoob"?
19:58:39 <Friendship> Don't be such a yoob, of course people search for bettereave.
19:59:19 <elliott> Ah, presumably typos for http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betterave
19:59:31 <elliott> People search for betterave, rather :P
20:00:03 <elliott> Friendship: I especially like that one of our top search terms is "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa".
20:00:11 <elliott> Do people count out the As to match our article?
20:01:30 <Friendship> Probably they just type a bunch of a's, and we happen to get those subset of A-typers who match.
20:03:46 <Friendship> I suppose the problem with our definition of Turing-complete is that it's sort of unclear what it's implications are with respect to extraneous behavior such as I/O.
20:04:53 <elliott> It's that bloody function-vs.-computation distinction again.
20:05:26 <elliott> Friendship: So how does all this tie in with the 2,3 TM :D
20:06:23 * elliott tends to think it's not TC.
20:06:28 <elliott> Friendship: Oh, infinite isn't that bad.
20:06:32 <elliott> It's infinite and *non-repeating*.
20:06:38 <elliott> (But generatable by a sub-TC machine)
20:07:15 <elliott> Wooow, people have Google +1'd Esolang pages.
20:07:17 <itidus21> so it turns out that toroidal symmetries are incredibly good at reducing numbers of states
20:10:21 -!- graue has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:12:33 -!- itidus20 has joined.
20:13:00 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:14:01 <Friendship> elliott: Yeah, "infinite" wasn't the right term.
20:15:06 <itidus20> hi/ih monqy/onqym/nqymo/qymon/ymonq/yqnom/qnomy/nomyq/omnqy/mnqyo
20:18:26 <kallisti> people who spell out btw are weird.
20:18:41 <kallisti> I think my internal chatspeak algorithm just picks the shortest one to say
20:18:49 <kallisti> so "afk" is "afk" but "wtf" is "what the fuck"
20:19:13 <itidus20> i wonder what these things are like in 3d
20:19:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:19:31 <elliott> speaking of agony, hi oerjan
20:19:49 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
20:20:21 <Friendship> mRoman: I appreciate your desire to implement the truth machine in IRP, but hope you don't resort to requesting the opposite now ...
20:20:47 <kallisti> and I guess when there's a tie I pick the acronym expansion
20:20:55 <kallisti> I mentally say "oh my god" when I see omg.
20:21:52 <elliott> Friendship: Hoooow is #irp still full of people who aren't in here
20:21:55 <kallisti> "oh my god what the fuck barbecue lol"
20:22:13 <Friendship> elliott: I wasn't even in there for years, then I joined and went "lolwut who are you all"
20:22:56 <oerjan> #irp isn't /list'ed :(
20:23:05 <mRoman> Friendship: I intentionally chose 0 ;)
20:23:25 <kallisti> are we about to exerpeince a mass immigration from #irp?
20:23:49 <oerjan> Friendship: just answer with a line of 1's and claim the irc server cut it off.
20:24:15 <Friendship> "Hey, /I/ sent an infinitely-long packet, the /server/ cut it short."
20:24:32 <Friendship> mRoman: Technically, only the first line is the implementation.
20:25:26 <oerjan> <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)V!(_v)n.?(_o)O!(_o)o.?]}
20:25:44 <oerjan> i realized the trick i used in the quine is used too little
20:26:08 <oerjan> !glass {M[m(_v)0V!n.?(_o)0O!o.?]}
20:27:38 <oerjan> elliott: a lot of glass code does (variable)Class!(variable)method.? like stuff
20:27:57 <oerjan> but (variable)0Class!method.? is shorter
20:28:32 <elliott> i think i've given up on writing a truth-machine in ijfijtijtifjitojidftidotgjklsdfg
20:28:35 <Friendship> Variables being first class on the stack is super-bizarre :)
20:29:11 <mRoman> I wonder if it is possible to write a truth-machine in CHIQRSX9+
20:29:23 <oerjan> mRoman: probably not a reliable one
20:29:39 <mRoman> Basically we'd need to find a perl programm which can be rotated to CHIQRS9+
20:29:54 <oerjan> elliott: to your giving up.
20:29:56 <elliott> mRoman: not every valid ascii character is a valid start of a perl program, Q.E.D.
20:30:16 <oerjan> mRoman: what elliott said, but i guess you might be able to do better than 1/256
20:30:23 <mRoman> But if the random number is correct, it would be a truth machine
20:30:40 <elliott> mRoman: then the task is as trivial as writing a perl program :P
20:31:10 <oerjan> mRoman: i once spammed this channel with a CHIQRSX9+ program hundreds of times or so until it ran the perl code correctly.
20:31:22 <oerjan> well i guess other people helped
20:31:48 <elliott> Then you got banned for spamming, right?
20:32:15 <PiRSquared> actually elliott was the one who sent the correct one iirc
20:32:42 <elliott> YOU APPRECIATE MY SPAM WHEN IT HELPS OERJAN, I SEE
20:32:53 <oerjan> elliott: well it was on topic spam, at least
20:33:16 <elliott> Funge-98 Final Specification
20:33:17 <elliott> Chris Pressey, Sept 11, 1998
20:33:17 <elliott> revised for clarity: Sept 30 1998
20:33:55 <oerjan> elliott: i reserve the right to be a hypocrite as long as you're being willfully annoying :P
20:34:25 * elliott is about 43% sure tomodo is who he thinks he is.
20:35:09 <oerjan> Friendship: well are _you_ who you think you are, hm?
20:35:37 <Friendship> I am the abstract notion of friendship, given form and a laptop with wireless internet access.
20:35:49 <elliott> oerjan: if tomodo joins this channel sometime in the next few weeks, I would suggest a ban before things get out of hand again.
20:36:45 <oerjan> elliott: are we speaking of f.., m.......y, c......s...?
20:37:37 <elliott> Friendship: I think once or twice? Dunno >_>
20:37:42 <elliott> oerjan: But yes, f.. and j-i*
20:37:52 <PiRSquared> `pastelogs f..\,? m.......y\,? c......s...
20:37:58 <elliott> <elliott> 18:14:17: <tomodo> Im so disappointed with my AI
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:24:35: <DanFrederiksen> :)
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:24:36: -!- pleiades has quit (K-Lined).
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:25:53: <tomodo> DanFrederiksen: I'll tell you about it if you want
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:35:03: <DanFrederiksen> that wont be necessary
20:37:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12261
20:37:59 <elliott> <elliott> 18:36:23: <tomodo> you're an idiot and a troll
20:38:01 <elliott> <elliott> 18:36:32: <tomodo> I'm putting you on /ignore from nowon
20:38:03 <elliott> <elliott> 18:44:03: <uniqanomaly> tomodo: excellent choice 18:44:36: <tomodo> I don't like smug people 18:44:55: <tomodo> it's just a way to try to appear superior when you have nothing to show for yourself 18:45:31: <DanFrederiksen> you are the troll buddy
20:38:12 <elliott> + they joined #haskell and talked about a scheme program they wrote
20:38:25 <elliott> complaining about it in a way which strongly reminds me of fax.
20:38:32 <Friendship> elliott: You realize those AI logs are at a URL, you don't need to paste them in the channel X_X
20:38:48 <elliott> PiRSquared: Yes, but then they wanted to rewrite it in Haskell, or something.
20:38:51 <oerjan> PiRSquared: not so much inside joke as someone who keeps coming back with new nicks, but being easily recognizable, and with some _serious_ self control problems
20:39:30 <oerjan> itidus20: you don't go ballistic on the channel
20:39:57 <itidus20> well you guys don't bait me into offtopics
20:40:22 -!- Infinikiller64 has joined.
20:40:26 <Friendship> itidus20: Your favorite programming language and/or environment and/or operating system and/or pony is terrible and we all hate it/her.
20:40:35 <HackEgo> Infinikiller64: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:40:48 <Friendship> I'm so glad I said that immediately after somebody /join'd, with the nick "Friendship" no less X-D
20:41:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14881
20:41:35 <itidus20> like.. suppose one of you posted a url to a site about corrupt olympic officals.. i would inevitably start ranting about it
20:41:42 <Friendship> elliott: Hahaha, I've ruined the channel.
20:41:50 <PiRSquared> is "f.., m.......y, c......s..." finite memory constraints???
20:42:06 <elliott> PiRSquared: fax, misspiggy, i don't remember the c*s* one
20:42:22 <elliott> aka faxathisia aka soupdragon aka quantumEd aka j-invariant aka crystal-cola aka ...
20:42:50 <Friendship> Infinikiller64: What's amazing is that this channel was on-topic no less than twenty minutes ago.
20:42:59 <oerjan> elliott: it was crystal-cola, forgot the hyphen
20:43:09 <oerjan> oh and what was at the end
20:43:29 <elliott> i guess maybe the .s were imprecise
20:43:33 -!- Infinikiller64 has left.
20:43:47 <elliott> i suspect that was killer64
20:43:47 <PiRSquared> "finitely many configurations" matched my stupid regex
20:43:56 <elliott> aka the first user in the new user log :P
20:44:24 <itidus20> Friendship: in general i'm very reactive.. i can't help it, my blood boils every time i read anything about patents or patent law
20:44:27 <elliott> oerjan: Did you know that the diff colours are changing in the next mediawiki release???
20:44:53 <Friendship> elliott: I blame everyone for his immediate departure.
20:45:06 <elliott> Friendship: istr e was in here before
20:45:18 <elliott> oerjan: see http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki&diff=44532&oldid=44311 for an example
20:45:22 <oerjan> itidus20: so you are patently unstable?
20:45:37 <itidus20> you can't patent instability you monster
20:46:27 <itidus20> sure you can patent dna strands, tyre swings, and double-clicks
20:47:30 <itidus20> the patent office won't reject it... you just have to have the money to get a settlement in court if anyone challenges your word patent
20:47:31 <PiRSquared> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levante <-- already a word or something
20:47:54 <PiRSquared> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/levante#Noun something in French...
20:49:25 <itidus20> the patent office is like an employment agency existing to connect businesses to courtrooms analagous to connecting employees to employers
20:49:43 <elliott> oerjan: I was hoping for at least a little aieee.
20:50:43 <itidus20> the more i think about it, its not such a bad thing
20:50:56 <itidus20> but.. the world would be better off if you couldn't actually license patents
20:51:01 <itidus20> that seems to be where the trouble festers
20:51:25 <itidus20> rather that if you wanted to do anything you would have to find a new method
20:52:25 <oerjan> elliott: i'd be more interested if they made it choose more logical changes
20:53:05 <oerjan> oh and i sort of don't like that the color for entirely new lines is the same as the color for things that haven't changed
20:53:14 <oerjan> perhaps they've fixed that
20:54:13 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh it wasn't meant to be interesting
20:54:38 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOK
20:55:20 <elliott> PiRSquared: Hell naw, I love change!
20:55:28 <elliott> Also apparently it was done for colour-blind people and I'M NICE.
20:55:43 <PiRSquared> .diff-addedline { background-color: (old color) }
20:59:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> "This usage of a default BeVerb in Russian AI is a new technique in the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar and may not only constitute unpatentable _prior art_ in AI but may also contribute to a Technological Singularity if Russia repeats her spectacular success of first place in the sweepstakes of exploring the Dark Side of the Moon. It will be "GAME OVER", if the creative minds of Russia create the expanded Mind of Dushka."
21:00:06 <oerjan> are you _sure_ that wasn't said by fungot
21:01:16 <elliott> oerjan: it's mentifex, what's the difference?
21:01:57 <oerjan> (sorry, i ahve to type blind because of tremendous lag)
21:07:02 <ais523> "the year 2012 of the Mayan Calendar"? didn't that happen ages ago?
21:07:48 <elliott> PiRSquared: crackpot ai guy
21:08:27 <oerjan> ais523: hm it's strange how it's obvious what's really meant, and yet it _does_ flag him as someone who doesn't think very precisely
21:08:38 <elliott> Man, some of these evil spidering bots are really aggressive.
21:08:51 <oerjan> and thus a possible crackpot
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21:10:13 <elliott> oerjan: anyone who uses the words "mayan calendar" without following them up with "historically" or "debunked" is fairly likely to be a crackpot :P
21:11:06 <oerjan> elliott: i really think we should distinguish people who believe stuff from people who make them up
21:14:20 <ais523> what about people who make stuff up without believing it?
21:14:41 <oerjan> there's a different word for that
21:14:54 <elliott> oerjan: I have no ide what the resulting sentence is
21:15:20 <elliott> but yes, you're right, "crackpot" should probably be reserved for people with their own "theories"
21:15:33 <Friendship> Apparently I wrote some corewars fanfic:
21:15:35 <Friendship> "We were caught in each others' embrace, each in the moment executing each others' code, neither wishing to look back to our own, and so we danced. On the horizon, an imp, come clearly to ruin our brief romance, advanced towards us. As we looked deeply into each others loop construct for one last moment, our impending fate became us as it does us all. Now we too are imps."
21:15:37 <oerjan> elliott: the final two corrections are just obsessive anyhow
21:16:16 <elliott> periodic reminder that https://github.com/tombell/trollscript exists and humanity is worthless
21:16:44 * oerjan declares Friendship a Knight of Rule 34
21:17:06 <elliott> that's barely even a romance novel
21:17:35 <elliott> AT BEST, Friendship is a Pawn of Corewars Shipping
21:17:44 <elliott> F- would not grant title to again.
21:18:34 <oerjan> incidentally the norwegian word for the chess piece is "hest", meaning horse
21:19:32 <oerjan> that's colloquial, the official is "springer"
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21:20:37 <Friendship> Which of course is a reference to Springer Media, the publishing company.
21:20:43 <oerjan> meaning "leaper". while bishop is "løper", just to be confusing.
21:21:43 <oerjan> Friendship: i guess it's also the german word
21:23:55 <elliott> I bet Friendship knows how to access private members of a PHP class.
21:24:17 <elliott> Oh! OutputPage is a ContextSource!
21:24:19 <elliott> That's convenient, that is.
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21:24:31 <elliott> Convenient like butter on ice.
21:24:54 <Sgeo> (declare (ignore hunger))
21:25:42 <elliott> $wgOut->addLink( array( 'rel' => 'canonical',
21:25:42 <elliott> 'href' => $this->getTitle()->getLocalURL() )
21:26:13 <oerjan> <Gregor> Another fun corner of computational classes would be a language that's equivalent to a push-down automata except for the addition of a halting oracle for Turing machines. Assuming it's not Turing complete (it's unclear whether you could properly use the halting oracle to wend your way through the state with only a PDA), it would have the fun property of being unimplementable but less powerful than a Turing machine :)
21:26:43 <oerjan> i think it would all depend on exactly how the PDA is allowed to construct the input to its oracle...
21:26:46 * Sgeo wonders if using declare ignore is excessively verbose
21:26:51 <Sgeo> Other languages just prefix or use _
21:27:49 <oerjan> because it's not hard to turn a turing computation with a true/false result into two halting problems
21:28:19 <oerjan> (just add a final infinite loop on true, respectively false)
21:29:05 <elliott> function addCanonicalLink( OutputPage &$out, Skin &$skin ) {
21:29:05 <elliott> if ( $out->isArticle( ) ) {
21:29:05 <elliott> 'href' => $out->getWikiPage()->getTitle()->getLocalURL()
21:29:12 <elliott> #$wgHooks['BeforePageDisplay'][] = 'addCanonicalLink';
21:31:24 * oerjan swats everyone who used "automata" for the singular in the log discussion -----###
21:31:54 <elliott> oerjan: I can't seem to view this piece of data...
21:32:29 <oerjan> elliott: i think that one's gone too far to protest.
21:33:04 * elliott says "datum/criterion" on occasion.
21:33:22 <elliott> I believe I've even said "desideratum" once.
21:37:52 <HackEgo> gazari culat chopf buffigioi raima sokushn conum teaversonia crol itanacy pparvada dun fauclerron shee rov brah supfle luffaira unho gencom dishelin vacclxx thop levu inquina
21:41:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged is /a quarter of the book/.
21:42:00 <elliott> It's ~60 pages, I thought.
21:42:03 <elliott> Atlas Shrugged is over 1000.
21:42:23 <elliott> 70 pages out of 1168 sez WP
21:49:21 <Slereah> 70 pages is way too much, no matter the overall book
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22:03:02 <elliott> I'd appreciate comments on the wiki about a proposed policy change: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Policy#Language_authors
22:06:51 <elliott> I know it. I don't think it's known.
22:06:53 <ais523> I don't generally admit to having one
22:06:54 <Friendship> "and his middle name is not common knowledge" // it's certainly known by at least himself
22:06:57 <ais523> although it's obvious that it exists
22:07:07 <ais523> it's not common knowledge, but IIRC it is public knowledge if you know where to look
22:07:17 <ais523> but it's more fun if people try to find it for themselves
22:07:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, he basically just said it's OK for you to tell me OK
22:08:16 * oerjan also knows ais523's middle name *cackles evilly*
22:09:08 * oerjan doesn't have a middle name btw
22:10:08 <oerjan> i'll see if i can remember that.
22:10:31 <elliott> SO MUCH TALKING, SO LITTLE ON-WIKI REPLYING
22:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Alternative_outlets
22:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the "arbiter of viewpoints" line in the directory of alternatives.
22:12:07 <oerjan> elliott: hm i have the distinct impression that it used to be possible to edit sections from diff pages before, at least if the final version was the current one
22:12:52 <oerjan> since i generally tend to look through the recent changes by diffs, that was useful
22:12:53 <elliott> oerjan: Well, that might be a MW change. I've seen Esolang's old LocalSettings.php, and it didn't turn on anything like that.
22:13:09 <elliott> oerjan: Why not click the arrow in the diff message and hit "edit" from there?
22:13:52 <elliott> (→Language authors: new section) (show/hide)
22:13:56 <elliott> The arrow is a link to the section.
22:14:00 <elliott> But there's no [edit] link on the sections :/
22:15:54 <elliott> oerjan: I'll look into it.
22:15:58 <elliott> but there's nothing i can do immediately
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22:16:20 <elliott> yay, maharba agrees with me :P
22:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Forum for general chatter#wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, mwusers.com"
22:20:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users.
22:23:49 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit
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22:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia Review is the bestest place for general chatter for Wikipedia users.
22:31:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: err, possibly ais523 can explain better than I can
22:32:27 <ais523> it's basically a site whose purpose is bitching at Wikipedia
22:32:33 <ais523> not intentionally, but that's the community it attracted
22:34:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Basically it's a site that manages to be so trolly that it defeats the millions of valid criticisms one could make about Wikipedia.
22:35:10 <kallisti> real humans actually don't edit Wikipedia anymore.
22:35:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also reactionary, e.g. IIRC they tend to support anything Sanger says, despite the fact that he's a complete idiot, because he doesn't like Wikipedia nowadays.
22:36:34 <elliott> Friendship: ais523: You should, like, reply on-wiki, like, , .
22:36:45 <ais523> meh, doing something else
22:36:53 <elliott> I can't dictate if my loyal supporters don't hail my every decision!
22:38:04 <kallisti> active and registered Wikipedia users are like 35% borg hivemind, 35% who use it as a social network, 25% trolls, and 5% who write legitimate well-written content.
22:38:27 <ais523> I don't think I fit into any of those categories when I was active
22:38:32 <ais523> social network was probably closest
22:39:04 <kallisti> think of it as like a multiset... or something
22:39:34 <elliott> I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P
22:39:40 <elliott> but it'd probably fall apart in every other area
22:40:04 <elliott> well, I suppose vandal reversion would be the main thing lost
22:40:39 <kallisti> no blocks, profusion of non-encyclopedic articles...
22:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I think Wikipedia's actual article content wouldn't suffer if every registered user just disappeared :P
22:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean disappeared altogether or stopped using their account?
22:41:26 <elliott> see http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia
22:41:43 <elliott> Wikipedia tend to claim, or at least did in the past, that a small group of registered users are responsible for most of the edits
22:41:51 <elliott> but that's completely false if you look at articles
22:42:05 <elliott> (I suppose it might be true if you include Wikipedia-namespace edits)
22:48:48 <oerjan> on behalf of the wikignomes, i'd like to protest that i feel left out of your classification
22:49:18 <oerjan> although i suppose grammar corrections _might_ count as legitimate well-written content.
22:50:27 <elliott> wikignomes don't tend to register, I would say
22:51:00 <oerjan> how else could i get a wikignome userbox, duh
22:51:44 <elliott> hey there are IPs with user pages
22:51:51 <elliott> ais523: what was that famous one? I ASSUME YOU HAVE THEIR IP MEMORISED
22:52:11 <oerjan> i guess. but i don't think my IP is stable.
22:53:32 <elliott> oerjan: just add a redirect every time it changes :D
22:55:59 <olsner> heh, found the bug... my null was broken
22:57:58 <olsner> it was returning an internal type instead of the actual return value, so if you tested the value of (null x) with e.g. an if, it'd get matched as "not nil" and take the true-branch every time
22:58:42 <olsner> noticed it when trying to just evaluate and print (null something), because that internal thingy was not handled by the printer
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22:59:31 <elliott> what are you implementing this in?
23:00:42 <olsner> i.e. in C++ templates at compile-time (the actual printing is an ugly messy hybrid, but the calculation of what to print is compile-time at least)
23:01:33 <elliott> olsner: I have some utilities you may find helpful for that
23:01:42 <elliott> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates
23:01:50 <olsner> I built a bunch of nice utilities for this project today, also a test suite
23:01:53 <elliott> probably very slow if you have large outputs though
23:02:00 <elliott> but it makes the output part simple
23:02:08 <elliott> and gives you decimal conversion ;)
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23:04:59 <olsner> representative code line from my print stuff: operator char *() { return (char *)(T*)this; }
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23:16:49 <olsner> hmm, I think the next project for this will be lexical scoping and destructive updates
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23:29:28 <olsner> hmm, to keep track of the current state of all closures, it seems I need to build some kind of heap-like thing to store the closures in
23:30:07 <oerjan> elliott: since you gave up i guess i had to do it :)
23:30:26 <olsner> otoh, it wouldn't be terribly surprising if C++ actually had some weird way to have mutable state in templates
23:31:20 <elliott> oerjan: would you hate me if I told you that was what I was hoping for? :P
23:34:55 <oerjan> of course, that pretty much _is_ mostly a main loop template (although i did not copy an earlier one directly.)
23:35:48 <elliott> I NOTE THAT NOBODY ASKED ABOUT MY NEW ESOLANG IDEA
23:36:21 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: hmm, I had an idea for an INTERCAL-inspired constraint-based tarpit
23:36:57 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:37:44 <elliott> OK so basically there's only one instruction, and it's "don't come from".
23:38:05 <elliott> Execution proceeds by going to the only place it isn't forbidden from going to.
23:38:14 <elliott> (If there are multiple it's nondeterministic or something.)
23:38:49 <Jafet> Will it feature a cut rule?
23:39:08 <elliott> Cut rules are for laaaaameeers.
23:39:20 <elliott> Oh, and the come from is computed, of course.
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23:42:38 <elliott> 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0
23:42:39 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit
23:42:39 <elliott> 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1
23:43:03 <elliott> (OK, there are input/print/exit instructions too.)
23:44:26 <elliott> Also variables are immutable.
23:44:56 <Jafet> Now elliott plays name-that-computational-class!
23:45:11 <elliott> Also you can only have one non-don't-come-from command per line.
23:45:35 <ion> Ooh, DON’T COME FROM is even cooler than COME FROM.
23:45:39 <elliott> Jafet: I guess I'll probably need mutable data to be TC.
23:45:57 <Jafet> Just add instructions that add instructions.
23:46:17 <Jafet> Self-modifying languages are all the rage
23:48:40 <fizzie> elliott: Doesn't line 10 need some don't-come-froms?
23:49:04 <elliott> 10 don't come from 20 and don't come from 30 and don't come from 40 and input i
23:49:04 <elliott> 20 don't come from 9+i and don't come from 40 and print 0
23:49:04 <elliott> 30 don't come from 10 and don't come from 40 and exit
23:49:04 <elliott> 40 don't come from 10+i and don't come from 20 and print 1
23:49:16 <elliott> Mayhaps it should have a more concise syntax.
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