00:00:24 <elliott> Remember when you were GregorR?
00:01:50 -!- RocketJSquirrel has changed nick to ungroup.
00:01:57 -!- ungroup has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
00:03:04 <Taneb> I still own "Taneb"
00:04:04 <elliott> i don't own elliott any more
00:04:40 <nortti> what do you mean by owning a nick?
00:04:52 <Taneb> Having it registered with nickerv
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00:06:10 <elliott> nortti: /msg nickserv help register
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00:08:08 <Taneb> (by the way, the Piet spec does specify Unicode, but goes no more detailed than that)
00:08:25 <RocketJSquirrel> Honestly, I'm kind of disappointed to find that RocketJSquirrel was free, given how big this network is.
00:08:43 -!- Taneb has changed nick to RocketKSquirrel.
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00:10:29 <Taneb> Also, what's the difference between a conjecture and a thesis?
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00:13:41 <Taneb> Bah, internet's dying
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00:21:48 <hagb4rd> my mother accidently deleted the internet past week
00:28:10 <tswett> Sgeo: "is not a quine" is not a quine.
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00:29:58 <zzo38> I have read about a QR code quine on this channel once, I think it was using PNG format.
00:30:16 <zzo38> I have also seen a ZIP quine, which contains a picture as well as a copy of itself.
00:31:23 <hagb4rd> you somethin like a recursive compression?
00:32:38 <zzo38> I also saw a gzip file which when uncompressed, resulted in two copes of the original concatenated together. If you then uncompress that, it will be four copies of the original, and so on.
00:35:30 <tswett> Infinite compression ratio, eh?
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00:44:06 <kmc> http://research.swtch.com/zip a detailed writeup about the zipfile quine
00:45:40 <nortti> Do you think, that esoos should be based on an existing os with esoteric userland or a completely new kernel written in combination of asm and some esotetic language?
00:47:15 <elliott> the former is quite boring
00:47:19 <elliott> since you skip all the OS parts
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00:55:25 <zzo38> nortti: Second one.
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01:04:01 <nortti> what language would you suggest?
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01:07:42 <Sgeo> There's no place for PSOX, right?
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01:09:41 <nortti> Sgeo: actually I might b the api for esoos
01:11:57 <elliott> There aren't many esolanguages suited to that low-level fun.
01:12:15 <elliott> Checkout is one, but you can't compile it efficiently to today's instruction sets.
01:12:58 <Sgeo> Note that the file domain is incomplete. And that you'll need to write your own implementation, unless you want to get CPython running on the OS
01:13:08 <nortti> If I use PSOX I will propably leave networking out
01:14:23 <nortti> Why the fuck does android keyboard havs enter and backdpace so close?! -.-
01:14:33 <Sgeo> I'm trying to think, is there anything truly useful in there besides networking and files?
01:14:39 <Sgeo> Besides the general framework
01:15:10 <Sgeo> Which as elliott said may be less suited for languages other than Brainfuck and Checkout (haven't heard of Checkout until now)
01:15:25 <elliott> No, Checkout isn't even remotely suited to PSOX.
01:15:29 <elliott> I was replying to <nortti> what language would you suggest?
01:15:48 <elliott> But it's true that PSOX limits you sorely with its binary requirement.
01:16:34 <nortti> Sgeo: If I use PSIX I will write my own implementation with asm
01:16:59 <Sgeo> elliott, at least it doesn't limit you to cell-based languages
01:18:32 <nortti> Sgeo: Does any esoteruc api limit you to cell based languages?
01:18:50 <elliott> I feel compelled to point out http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/
01:19:15 <Sgeo> nortti, iirc, PESOIX
01:19:20 <Sgeo> Which was PSOX's inspiration
01:19:26 <Sgeo> Some things about PESOIX ticked me off
01:20:50 <Sgeo> Or was it EsoAPI
01:20:57 <Sgeo> PSOX was named after PESOIX
01:21:17 <Sgeo> "EsoAPI 1.0 calls replace the normal output functions. To perform an EsoAPI operation, write the necessary NUL escape character and function call bytes to the output stream. Some function calls may return a status value in the current memory cell. Any other data will start in the cell following the current memory cell. This should be implemented in a way consistent with the language."
01:21:21 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoAPI
01:22:47 <nortti> Oh. That is just stupid
01:23:49 <Sgeo> I think my problem with PESOIX was more subtle
01:27:13 <nortti> or maybe I just create another Esoteric API which needs input and output byte functions
01:28:06 <Sgeo> "Hello! ebdcked interesting ebdcked site! I'm really like it! Very, very ebdcked good!"
01:28:16 <elliott> Come to think of it, Glass could be a decent language to do it with.
01:28:53 <elliott> It has simple semantics without great runtime requirements (just a GC), and has enough abstraction support to allow you to bolt on talk-to-hardware stuff without much effort.
01:30:16 <nortti> Does it need dynamic memory allocation?
01:31:01 <elliott> Sure, but the allocation is explicitly controlled (i.e. you'll know when a piece of code is allocating). And writing a simple allocator+GC can be done in a few hundred lines of assembly code.
01:31:42 <nortti> Yeah. I'll look at Glass when I get to my computer
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01:34:47 <nortti> I actually have pretty simple best fit linked lisr based allocator ready, but it is in 16bit cide
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01:43:47 <kmc> did #haskell change significantly after i left
01:43:58 <kmc> i have some paranoid fantasy where i'm secretly responsible for all of the dysfunction in that channel
01:45:56 <elliott> you can pgdown a few times on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/12.03.10 if you want empirical evidence
01:46:54 <zzo38> Write an operating system using a variant of INTERCAL.
01:47:51 <nortti> intercal is kinda boring bacause the please ststem
01:50:30 <shachaf> danharaj: In GHC you can make an identifier that doesn't even have a type.
01:51:25 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that Korpela guy answers questions on Stack Overflow.
01:52:09 <zzo38> Who is danharaj and how can you make an identifier that doesn't have a type?
01:52:23 <shachaf> kmc: Nope. #haskell has only deteriorated in your absence. :-(
01:53:03 <elliott> shachaf truly has deterioriated in kmc's absence.
01:53:12 <kmc> how has it deteriorated
01:53:13 <shachaf> elliott: Data T = froall a. T { unT :: a }
01:53:30 <shachaf> I just mean that I've been getting annoyed with it more often.
01:54:13 <zzo38> O, yes, you are correct, I think unT doesn't have a type (or a use).
01:54:18 <kmc> let's have all the reasonable people leave #haskell
01:55:08 <shachaf> Pattern-matching and record construction.
01:55:44 * Sgeo factory resets his phone
01:55:54 <elliott> shachaf: IIRC GHC will display unT's type as T -> a if you convince it to.
01:55:58 <elliott> (I think Haddock will document it as such.)
01:56:07 <elliott> (If you don't expose the constructor but expose unT separately.)
01:56:20 <shachaf> Cannot use record selector `unT' as a function due to escaped type variables
01:56:30 <shachaf> (You can test it in ghci these days!)
01:56:40 <shachaf> I don't know of any way to convince it to.
01:56:47 <elliott> <elliott> (I think Haddock will document it as such.)
01:56:56 <shachaf> But that statement is tautologically true.
01:57:33 <shachaf> kmc: If I was reasonable I'd've left #haskell a long time ago, surely.
01:58:31 <kmc> i'm still wondering if i should post my screed about #haskell
01:58:48 <kmc> the channel has many redeeming qualities and i don't want to just walk away
01:58:58 <kmc> but it pisses me off for reasons which are a combination of its and my fault
01:59:28 <shachaf> Which parts are your fault?
02:00:11 <elliott> I can practically guarantee posting such a thing will have no benefits other than catharsis... but maybe if you're still annoyed at an IRC channel after not being in it for months that's what you need.
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02:00:38 <elliott> Catharsis is the word I want there, right? I hate words.
02:00:44 <kmc> seems correct
02:01:01 <kmc> i'm not sure it has no other purpose
02:01:08 <kmc> it will get people talking
02:01:15 <elliott> It might have a purpose, but I doubt that purpose will be fulfilled.
02:01:31 <elliott> But I'm pretty cynical about the ability of online communities to improve.
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02:03:59 <kmc> i think #haskell is friendly, and they think friendly = helpful
02:04:03 <kmc> and so they think they are very helpful
02:04:13 <kmc> perhaps if i tell them that friendly ≠ helpful they could be more helpful
02:04:36 <olsner> well, do you want them to be helpful or friendly?
02:04:49 <kmc> preferably both
02:04:54 <kmc> i am not saying they are mutually exclusive
02:05:02 <kmc> i am saying that being friendly is not itself sufficient for being helpful
02:05:16 <kmc> for example, elaborating every beginner question into an endless argument about monad tutorials is not unfriendly
02:05:36 <kmc> it's done with good intentions
02:06:51 <zzo38> Some pepole have said the programming language I wanted to invent is similar to a combination between Lisp and Haskell; that is probably part of it but not all of it.
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02:07:45 <kmc> standards on IRC are so low that people think #haskell is an amazing channel just because they do not overtly flame noobs
02:10:08 <kmc> i don't think #haskell needs to get significantly less friendly in order to be more helpful
02:10:18 <kmc> perhaps less friendly in some particular ways
02:12:22 <Sgeo> I don't think I could ever flame a newbie
02:12:32 <Sgeo> There was one person I flamed in here a while ago.
02:12:44 <Sgeo> Someone who pretended to know more than he did, iirc
02:12:56 <olsner> can you flame on IRC? I thought that only happened over mail/newsgroups...
02:14:01 <kmc> i told someone directly that they had no idea what they were talking about
02:14:07 <kmc> i don't think i was particularly mean about it
02:14:52 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett has been UPDATEd
02:52:59 <ion> hgeo. honqy. hachaf. hswett.
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03:03:22 <elliott> 02:03:59: <kmc> i think #haskell is friendly, and they think friendly = helpful
03:03:22 <elliott> 02:04:03: <kmc> and so they think they are very helpful
03:03:22 <elliott> 02:04:13: <kmc> perhaps if i tell them that friendly ≠ helpful they could be more helpful
03:03:29 <elliott> kmc: I think they think #haskell is friendly *and* helpful.
03:03:40 <elliott> If you tell them friendly =/= helpful, they'll just ask you what about all the help they do.
03:04:12 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't you just repeat what kmc said?
03:04:32 <pikhq_> Well, they're probably more helpful than most IRC channels, at least.
03:04:53 <pikhq_> The sheer misanthropy of a lot of programming language channels I've seen prevents any attempts at help.
03:04:58 <elliott> kmc is saying that #haskell people think {friendly(#haskell), friendly = helpful}.
03:05:11 <elliott> If you convince them that instead friendly =/= helpful, they won't have the belief helpful(#haskell).
03:05:17 <elliott> I'm saying they think {friendly(#haskell), helpful(#haskell), ...}.
03:05:27 <elliott> If you convince them that friendly =/= helpful, that won't change their belief that helpful(#haskell).
03:07:10 <elliott> I'm writing a Haskell book. Almost finished the 3rd chapter. Would like feedback. (bit.ly)
03:07:31 <elliott> They learned Haskell by reading a book and writing three toy programs a few months ago.
03:08:00 <elliott> They think they "get" monads, but aren't quite sure about "functors".
03:08:07 <elliott> OK, I hate being such a cynic. Please let me be wrong.
03:08:26 <elliott> "To #haskell, where all questions are answered in majestic stereo."
03:08:30 <elliott> shachaf!! You'll never believe it!
03:09:59 * elliott takes a look at the actual book, as if he needed "evidence".
03:10:07 <elliott> "This is not a serious project."
03:10:28 <elliott> Every language (human or computer) is unique. But there exists a special breed of languages ? those that
03:10:28 <elliott> challenge and shape the way one thinks. Haskell is one of them ? lost innovation in a sea of clichés. Un-
03:10:28 <elliott> fortunately, the only people apparently interested in Haskell are academics who blindly push the boundaries
03:10:28 <elliott> and gurus who want to learn ?just one more language?.
03:10:28 <elliott> On a more concrete note, if Haskell were to have a list of prerequisites, it would be very unusual indeed ?
03:10:31 <elliott> at least two of the following:
03:10:35 <elliott> Extensive programming experience
03:10:39 <elliott> A background in mathematics
03:11:37 <ion> Perse is Finnish for arse.
03:12:25 <shachaf> elliott: Thanks to you, I found the book, read some of it, and became annoyed.
03:12:34 <shachaf> Thanks, elliott. Thellileioieliottttt.
03:12:39 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qquc5/im_writing_a_haskell_book_almost_finished_the_3rd/c3zqomv
03:13:07 <elliott> "c = [( f x) ^2 | x <- a , x < 10] -- this really works !"
03:13:09 <elliott> OH MY GOD IT'S JUST LIKE PYTHON
03:13:14 <elliott> THANK YOU HASKELL, I'M LEAVING PYTHON FOREVER
03:13:28 <elliott> People really need to think of bettter examples of declarative style than list comprehensions.
03:13:36 <elliott> "The mathematical applications of Haskell are endless. It's even possible to de?ne and work with monoids [XREF]!"
03:13:41 <elliott> THE INCREDIBLY COMPLEX MATHEMATICAL TOOL "MONOID"
03:13:52 <elliott> FINALLY HASKELL SOLVES ALL THE PROBLEMS FOR TODAY'S MATHEMATICIANS, LETTING THEM USE "MONOID"S
03:14:53 <shachaf> "If we try to mix wrong types, Haskell throws a type error."
03:15:07 <shachaf> Are the things highlighted in red supposed to be wrong?
03:15:19 <monqy> "I should actually think before coding, but the type system is so good :)" - Cale
03:15:49 <shachaf> Warning! Backquotes work only with two-parameter functions.
03:17:04 <elliott> This is all because Haskell is riddled with complex, counterintuitive or simply mind-boggling elements. Let's
03:17:04 <elliott> take a look at something interesting.
03:17:04 <elliott> max (2 3) -- doesn 't work
03:17:17 <elliott> max 2 3 /* doesn't work */
03:17:25 <elliott> (max,2)(3) /* doesn't work */
03:17:52 <shachaf> More like a feature, right?
03:17:53 <monqy> For starters, ++ concatenates two lists. It's one of the most basic operators. It's associative, so (a ++ b) ++ c is equivalent to a ++ (b ++ c)^7. / ^7 Without this basic property, lists would be stupid.
03:18:16 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a)
03:18:18 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
03:19:00 <shachaf> Technically all functions accept only one parameter, but it's not healthy to think like this, at least for now ? remember
03:19:24 <elliott> I like the part where he gets it right paragraphs later:
03:19:25 <elliott> Also, function application has the highest precedence, so if you write
03:19:25 <elliott> (for more details see A.1).
03:19:35 <monqy> this book isn't real is it
03:19:40 <monqy> it's just an elaborate prank right
03:19:43 <elliott> google docs is super bad at copying
03:19:49 <shachaf> It's a prank meant to make elliott go insane.
03:20:08 <shachaf> Unfortunately elliott was already insane.
03:20:11 <elliott> "Unlike most languages, in Haskell a zero-parameter function and a constant are really the same.
03:20:11 <elliott> strangely enough, has something to do with Problem Z ? we'll understand what that means soon enough.
03:21:21 <ion> FYI: the author is brisingr in Freenode.
03:22:04 <elliott> That guy has been in here before.
03:22:08 <shachaf> I don't want to make fun of people who are in IRC. :-(
03:22:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: CENSOR THE LOGS CENSOR THE LOGS
03:22:56 <elliott> I like how it gets to unsafeCoerce on page 14.
03:23:32 <shachaf> /msg brisingr elliott is making fun of you in #esoteric
03:24:13 <elliott> ion: You ruined all our fun!
03:24:20 <shachaf> Don't you have better channels to make fun of people in?
03:24:24 <elliott> And by "ruined", I mean "saved".
03:24:33 <elliott> And by all of that I mean a turtle. :(
03:25:28 <shachaf> elliott: You should write a better Haskell book.
03:26:08 <shachaf> HASKELL IS THE BEST LANGUAGE EVER
03:26:24 <elliott> "It's not unlike if-else in other languages ? if the statement is true, the
03:26:24 <elliott> branch won't evaluate and viceversa."
03:26:32 <elliott> Tell that to my speculative Haskell evaluator!
03:26:52 * ion tells that to elliott’s speculative Haskell evaluator.
03:27:46 <shachaf> To be fair, a CPU might mispredict the branch in evaluating the C code too!
03:27:55 <monqy> why are you still reading that book
03:28:09 <monqy> by the way have we invited brisignre here yet
03:28:13 <shachaf> monqy: Because it involves no effort and is an easy way to feel superior.
03:28:30 <elliott> Exactly. shachaf gets it exactly right.
03:28:43 <elliott> Except that I'm actually doing it as an intellectual strenghtening exercise.
03:28:55 <elliott> It's like beating your head against a wall, except I'm beating my *mind* against a wall.
03:29:00 <elliott> Which amounts to the same thing, but one sounds better.
03:29:27 <shachaf> It's not actually strengthening.
03:30:32 <shachaf> The point is that elliott is mean-spirited and blackhearted.
03:32:20 <shachaf> Fortunately, Haskell has a strong type system. That means that however similar their internal representations are, the compiler won't allow us to perform illogical calculations on them, such as multiplying an integer with a boolean. This may seem restrictive, but it helps avoid certain types of errors[1] (type errors).
03:32:26 <shachaf> [1] Imagine working on a long, difficult physics problem asking for some velocity -- but after hours of calculations, the result is in kilograms. That can't be good.
03:32:39 <shachaf> I like how Haskell prevents that error.
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03:33:17 <elliott> The joke is that doing dimensional things in Haskell is painful.
03:33:38 <monqy> > 1 {- miles per hour -} + 2 {- kilograms -}
03:33:47 <elliott> I think it's ignoring your comments.
03:34:29 <monqy> > 1 :: miles per hour
03:34:30 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (miles per hour)) from the context ()
03:35:30 <shachaf> > 1 mile per hour + 2 kilograms
03:36:18 <shachaf> > 1 miles per hour + 2 kilograms
03:36:35 <monqy> kilometre is too many letters for poor haskell
03:37:04 <pikhq_> Is there anything that makes doing dimensional stuff *easy*?
03:37:32 <elliott> (ok, it's not statically-checked)
03:37:35 <elliott> (but it does units excellently)
03:37:41 <ion> λ> 1 *~ (mile / hour) + 2 *~ kilo gram
03:37:48 <ion> Couldn't match type `Numeric.NumType.Zero' with `Numeric.NumType.Pos Numeric.NumType.Zero'
03:38:09 <pikhq_> How astonishingly nice.
03:38:38 <pikhq_> Well, nice for unit handling.
03:38:44 <pikhq_> I don't see any other merits.
03:39:21 <elliott> Wait, what are you replying to?
03:39:41 <elliott> Oh. Frink is astonishingly nice in general.
03:39:53 <elliott> It's the bestest calculator.
03:40:05 <ion> λ> let u = 240 *~ volt * sqrt _2; i = u / r; r = 2 *~ kilo ohm; p = u * i in p /~ watt :: CReal
03:40:08 <pikhq_> Merely being good at unit handling makes it quite nice.
03:41:29 <ion> @hackage frink
03:41:29 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/frink
03:42:07 <elliott> `frink 2 lightseconds -> "meters"
03:42:46 <monqy> whoa, light, slow down there
03:47:22 * ion makes the light bounce around in fiber, reducing its speed by a third.
03:49:30 <zzo38> elliott: I don't like do-notation and list comprehensions anyways; my own one it doesn't have such things (but might be possible to make up something like that using macros)
03:50:37 <shachaf> ion: OH NO YOU BROKE SCIENCE
03:50:42 <shachaf> elliott: ion broke science :-(
03:51:57 <elliott> Rest in peace , science . we loved , you .
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05:05:42 <elliott> blehhhhh i haven't written any code in SO LONG
05:06:17 <shachaf> elliott: You should finish @!
05:06:48 <ion> > let f a@!b = 42 in f 43
05:06:49 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
05:06:57 <ion> > let f !(a@b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:06 <ion> > let f a@(!b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:16 <ion> > let f (!a)@(!b) = 42 in f 43
05:07:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
05:07:39 <shachaf> > let f !(2@(!b)) = 42 in f 43
05:07:39 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
05:07:39 <elliott> ion: You see those problems you're having?
05:08:00 <shachaf> > let f !(a@(!b)) = 42 in f 43
05:08:07 <ion> > let f !(a@(!(c@(!d)))) = 42 in f 43
05:08:11 <shachaf> elliott: What problems do exist in @?
05:08:14 <shachaf> Other than, you know, existence.
05:08:45 <shachaf> @ is certainly not what you could call an existentialist. And yet @ has existential problems!
05:09:26 <ion> I use one in my email address.
05:09:54 <ion> A number of spammers seem to think so.
05:10:18 <shachaf> @: A spammer's operating system.
05:10:36 <elliott> @ is actually the yet-to-be-decided name of @, you just don't know it yet.
05:10:48 <elliott> When we figure out what it is, we'll replace all occurrences of @ in the logs with it.
05:11:25 <zzo38> I think it is bad idea to change the logs
05:11:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Tell me more about you think it is bad idea to change the logs
05:11:51 <ion> I think it is a good idea.
05:12:45 <zzo38> Especially if it is automated. We don't know what will happen possibly things will change to not sense, and not know the old name of it, etc; a better idea is to add annotations to existing logs.
05:12:54 <zzo38> Even if done manually it is not so good.
05:13:42 <ion> I think the probability of any problems occurring when replacing all @s with something else is almost zero.
05:13:57 <elliott> Well, we could replace @ with "<the name> [previously @]", but then the script would get into an infinite loop as it replaces that last @ there.
05:14:32 <monqy> <the name> [previously an at sign]
05:14:45 <ion> the sign formerly known as @
05:15:19 <ion> > iterate ("the sign formerly known as " ++) "@"
05:15:21 <lambdabot> ["@","the sign formerly known as @","the sign formerly known as the sign fo...
05:16:05 <elliott> monqy: No, it was never an at sign.
05:16:13 <elliott> When you say @, you're always saying the name of @.
05:16:22 <elliott> You just don't fully realise it yet.
05:16:28 <monqy> <the name> [this was never an at sign what are you talking about]
05:17:29 <shachaf> THIS WAS NEVER AN AT SIGN WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
05:17:33 <ion> @ MACHT FREI
05:18:02 <ion> > (map head . group) "elliott"
05:31:26 <elliott> Pah, ion's realname doesn't contain any repeated adjacent letters.
05:31:31 <elliott> My cunning plan for revenge is foiled.
05:33:42 <ion> I could go to the magistrate’s office and change my name for you. Any suggestions?
05:35:30 <monqy> "Elliott" isn't a palindrome
05:35:40 <ion> neither is “palindrome”
05:37:07 <monqy> > "@" == take 1 "@"
05:37:32 <elliott> monqy: Does @ have to be a palindrome?
05:37:48 <shachaf> The secret name of @ has been discovered through lambdabot trickery!
05:38:12 <elliott> No, it's the at sign, surrounded by two double-quote marks.
05:40:08 <ion> > fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"")
05:40:10 <lambdabot> "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"...
05:40:25 <ion> There’s an @ in the middle.
05:41:05 <shachaf> > let x = fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"") in x !! (length x `div` 2)
05:41:55 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
05:42:10 <shachaf> My middleofthelist function is too slow. :-(
05:44:16 <shachaf> > let f (a:_) [] = a; f (a:_) [x] = a; f (a:as) (b:b':bs) = f as bs; g x = f x x in g "abcdef"
05:44:31 <shachaf> > let f (a:_) [] = a; f (a:_) [x] = a; f (a:as) (b:b':bs) = f as bs; g x = f x x in g $ fix (\s -> "\"" ++ s ++ "\"")
05:44:46 <ion> shachaf: Just wait a few years, Moore’s law will make computers fast enough eventually.
05:44:52 * elliott wonders if his infstrings hack can support a "middle of the string" function.
05:45:48 <elliott> "Copute is a derivative of the understanding I gained from my 2006-2008 Universal Theory of Everything (basically that the universal trend of entropy to maximum is the fundamental force), which was recently proven by Erik Verlinde." -- if you're confused, Compute is a programming language. (Hope you're even more confused now.)
05:45:55 <ion> infstrings?
05:46:31 <elliott> ion: http://sprunge.us/BXMM
05:47:09 <shachaf> monqy: what a coputer does
05:47:22 <elliott> start :: (forall a. (Stringy a) => a) -> String
05:47:22 <elliott> end :: (forall a. (Stringy a) => a) -> String
05:47:22 <elliott> end x = reverse (take 25 (getDual x))
05:47:25 <elliott> These break if you make them point-free.
05:47:53 <monqy> rank n types love you
05:47:55 <shachaf> elliott: What an original name for your monoid!
05:48:19 <elliott> shachaf: It's not a monoid! It violates the monoid laws. This hack is sort of in transition to becoming better, but hasn't quite got there yet.
05:48:33 <monqy> what an original name for your Monoid
05:49:06 <shachaf> What a devious name for your nonmonoid!
05:49:41 <ion> elliott: Heh, interesting.
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05:50:19 <shachaf> elliott: Why does it break if you make them point-free. :-(
05:51:08 <monqy> rank n types love elliott
05:51:14 <monqy> rank n types love everyone
05:51:19 <shachaf> monqy: are you rank n types
05:51:28 <monqy> you've found me out
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05:51:57 <shachaf> MoALTz: monqy is rank n types
05:56:29 <elliott> shachaf: Khan you fixhe the @,e thaneyk uoi
05:57:18 <monqy> shachaf: elliott what
05:57:24 <elliott> "Assuming no random inputs, the program's behavior is always deterministic (repeatable from initial conditions) w.r.t. the code as the observer. Fortunately1 this total observer never exists for program coded in a language with unbounded recursion, i.e. Turing-complete.
05:57:26 <elliott> 1A total observer would mean knowledge is static. Since software is the encoding of knowledge, software would become static. A person could eventually know everything. Then I posit that nothing would exist."
05:57:34 <monqy> @ask shachaf elliott what
05:57:39 <elliott> It's CS woo mixed with Theory of Everything woo.
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05:57:54 <shachaf> @tell monqy @ask elliott what
05:58:00 <lambdabot> shachaf said 6s ago: @ask elliott what
05:58:07 <monqy> @tell elliott what
05:58:29 <shachaf> now elioitlit wil get mad :(
05:58:29 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:00:07 <elliott> shachaf: I see you're doing your bit to make this place slightly worse than #haskell.
06:00:07 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:01:42 <shachaf> elliott: < elliott> shachaf: Khan you fixhe the @,e thaneyk uoi
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06:02:42 <elliott> Yes. That's slightly better than #haskell.
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06:11:12 <elliott> monqy: shachaf's caused me to actually start thinking about @, but can I just offload the thinking onto you?
06:11:34 <zzo38> At 2AM, I am going to fix all of the clocks in my house
06:11:42 <zzo38> Are you going to do that too?
06:11:59 <monqy> elliott: there is no escape
06:12:17 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know. Can you look at it?
06:12:42 <zzo38> (If it no longer says the time, but instead just says OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK all the time, then it might be broken.)
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06:16:29 <shachaf> elliott: Does it say it all the time?
06:16:44 <ion> > cycle "OK "
06:16:46 <lambdabot> "OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK...
06:16:47 <elliott> I'll stare at it forever to find out.
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06:21:43 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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06:21:46 <elliott> One of you has to change their name.
06:21:46 <HackEgo> shadwick: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:21:59 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:22:02 <monqy> let's all welcome shachaf
06:22:10 <monqy> and shachaf is welcome
06:22:37 <shadwick> elliott: thanks. been browsing tons of random pages on the Wiki this evening
06:26:10 <ion> `WELCOME SHACHAF
06:26:14 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
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06:27:07 <elliott> Dammit, I forget the existence of `WELCOME just as a newbie comes in.
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06:29:06 * Sgeo imagines a language where all functions take only keyword arguments and the keywords can be in any order
06:29:18 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
06:29:30 <HackEgo> PSOX: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
06:29:51 <shadwick> dear god, what has my arrival done?..
06:29:52 <Sgeo> Or is PSOX not welcome
06:30:20 <Sgeo> shadwick, trust me, we're rarely not this insane.
06:30:33 <ion> shadwick: Don’t trust him.
06:31:16 <elliott> shadwick: We're usually stupider than this... but also usually more entertaining.
06:31:19 <shadwick> I had a feeling this channel might be a little insane, after seeing some of the languages on the Wiki
06:31:24 <elliott> shachaf will now snark back at me.
06:31:45 <shadwick> just reading Eodermdrome's article..
06:31:58 <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
06:32:07 <monqy> I eagerly await shachaf's backsnark
06:32:12 <monqy> shachaf, do not disappoint
06:32:15 <elliott> Speaking of Eodermdrome, did anyone ever stop saying they're going to implement it and implement it?
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06:35:02 <elliott> shadwick: If you haven't got to Underload and ///, those two are lesser-known (compared to brainfuck, INTERCAL etc.) gems.
06:35:57 <monqy> if you've gotten to snack,
06:36:30 <elliott> If you've gotten to Snack then you can stop.
06:36:52 <elliott> (If you get to Esme you'll probably forget what you're doing.)
06:49:01 <Sgeo> I like how (lambda () (+ "5" "6")) gives me a warning in SBCL
06:51:17 <Sgeo> It's a good thing./
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07:39:52 <graue> i'm trying to figure out how to write a quine in a language that cannot do arithmetic on characters, nor convert integers to characters
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07:58:05 <shachaf> graue: Is either of those needed to write a quine?
07:59:13 <shachaf> So there you go. "the usual way" :-)
07:59:20 <shachaf> (Or is there a specific language you have in mind?)
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08:01:17 <graue> a common pattern in quines seems to be to have a string that's displayed twice in different forms, e.g. once as an array of character codes and once as a string, or once raw and once with quote marks escaped, or something
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08:02:21 <graue> so here i have q := "something with lots of escaped backslashes and quotes" and i need to iteratively create a version of q with all the escapes reinserted
08:05:43 <shachaf> That's the way it's normally done.
08:06:14 <graue> this programming language is really sick, too (and it's my fault, i created it)
08:07:01 <graue> there's no minus operator, you need to store a value in 2 different places to be able to iteratively do anything with it, it's stack-based but without a swap operator...
08:07:35 <shachaf> That's a lot more constraints than "a language that cannot do arithmetic on characters, nor convert integers to characters"
08:08:06 <graue> well i had a specific language with that property in mind
08:08:28 <graue> Sortle is TC, though, assuming i wrote this program correctly (it seems to work): http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/src/bct.sort
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09:04:34 <ais523> hey, it's Sunday, isn't it?
09:04:45 <ais523> I thought it was Monday, I'm at work at the moment
09:04:52 <ais523> and I was wondering why there was nobody here
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09:07:25 <pikhq_> 01:59 is followed by 03:00. :(
09:07:44 <graue> yeah, that happened to me too
09:08:10 <graue> or was it two hours ago?
09:13:04 <shadwick> ais523: for eodermdrome, if a command has an input set, would it get a char from stdin, check it against the input set, then check if the match graph is a subgraph of the state? or should it check if the match is a subgraph before consuming input and continuing
09:13:14 <shadwick> ais523: just reading this eodermdrome page
09:13:41 <ais523> shadwick: it only consumes input if it matches, IIRC
09:13:54 <shadwick> this is an interesting design haha
09:14:05 <ais523> as in, matches the input set too
09:14:16 <ais523> if the input isn't in the input set, it isn't consumed even if the subgraph matches
09:16:09 <shadwick> ais523: ok cool, and one more question: the ascii art graph uses pipes to connect the nodes, and the nice "initial state" picture uses single headed arrows.. are the edges one-way/directed?
09:16:24 <ais523> no, they're undirected
09:17:33 <shadwick> you think you'd ever be able to pull of an interpreter for this? haha
09:17:43 <ais523> it's hard to figure out how to do it efficiently
09:17:53 <ais523> although IIRC oklopol tried; I can't remember if he succeeded
09:18:05 <shadwick> it says that's lost to the "mists of time"
09:21:38 <fizzie> I think it did a thing.
09:21:59 <fizzie> I dug up some pastebin-ish snippets of it the other year.
09:22:34 <fizzie> Efficiency wasn't part of the goals of that interpreter, I think.
09:24:04 <shadwick> yeah I think just getting something working would be a priority
09:25:23 <fizzie> 2011-07-22 14:12:41 <fizzie> [2008-07-17 19:06:16] < oklopol> i implemented eodermdrome
09:27:05 <fizzie> Sadly, the only pasted bit I could find was http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p646231414.txt + http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p565155612.txt which doesn't look very complete.
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09:29:14 <shadwick> now don't take this seriously, but I think I'm gonna write a version
09:29:20 <shadwick> got a small basis in Python as aprototype
09:35:22 <graue> totally a change of subject, but: i think i have figured out how to write a quine in sortle!
09:35:51 <shachaf> graue: The last time I looked at this channel that was the subject.
09:35:58 <shachaf> So from my perspective you haven't changed it at all.
09:36:26 <shachaf> graue: I heard you were scary, by the way.
09:36:45 <graue> i'm like a huggy little teddybear
09:36:49 <graue> completely nonthreatening
09:36:49 <shachaf> elliott said you were a scary, scary man.
09:37:09 <shachaf> Unless that was Alan Dipert? No, I think it was you.
09:37:14 <graue> strange, i don't know why he would be scared of me
09:37:42 <graue> other than scared that i would fail to maintain the wiki properly when i hosted it
09:37:51 <graue> but that's not the same as being a scary man
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09:39:46 <hagb4rd> graue: have you written it yet? or is it just the idea for now?
09:39:57 <graue> it is partially written
09:41:58 <graue> it's gonna be 5 lines with the last line being really long
09:42:39 * Sgeo wonders how feasible/infeasible Lispnomic would be
09:42:45 <Sgeo> Makes more sense than HaskellNomic, really
09:44:14 <pikhq_> HaskellNomic? Not making it hard enough.
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09:45:19 <pikhq_> Actually, heck, let's make it worse.
09:45:50 <monqy> snack nomic, esme nomic
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09:51:06 <shadwick> I like that his name is Dagoth Ur
09:51:10 <Sgeo> "You have eaten as a snack right 2 people. Happy?"
09:51:14 <Sgeo> What does that even mean?
09:51:38 <shadwick> that his langauge skills fail in more than just programming?
09:52:17 <Sgeo> Sweet, sweet irony.
09:53:25 <ais523> I seem to remember that the Dagoth at Esolang has the comma in a different place from the Dagoth in Morrowind
09:55:22 <shadwick> haha, I googled "Dagoth Ur, Mad God" in quotes
09:55:29 <shadwick> tons of various wiki user pages for him
09:55:43 <hagb4rd> i didn't even realise that there was a comma
09:56:34 <shadwick> from one of the results' snippets in the search: "Dagoth Ur, Mad God, also known as Jhjnju, DUMG, or simply Dagoth, is an Australian troll and vandal."
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10:06:11 <graue> maaaaan this quine runs SLOW
10:06:30 <graue> it has to go through a long loop replacing all the escaped characters
10:07:10 <shadwick> ais523: I don't see how the example bitwise cyclic tag interpreter code for eodermdrome should work out.. the first move leaves us with the graph "miewehit" and no other actions' math graphs are subgraphs of that
10:09:10 <ais523> let's see… miewehit has a triangle (formed by ieh), once of whose corners is connected to two degree-one nodes, one of whose corners is connected to one degree-one node
10:09:15 <ais523> note that the letters aren't part of the graph itself
10:10:01 <graue> it takes 714 expression evaluations and like 5 minutes to execute, but it prints its own goddamn source exactly
10:10:22 <shadwick> ais523: k thanks. I'm trying to look into this more
10:11:06 <ais523> and byanad buguramat requires a degree-at-least-3 node connected to two degree-exactly-one nodes, and to be connected by a degree-exactly-two node to any other node
10:11:41 <ais523> so the (1) and (0) lines should both match the initial state
10:12:03 <graue> nortti, yeah, sortle
10:12:34 <shadwick> ais523: ok I think I see what you mean. I just gotta draw this stuff out haha
10:12:58 <ais523> shadwick: there are some ASCII art drawings linked from the article, might save you the trouble
10:14:46 <shadwick> ais523: hah I've gotta read the Wiki article on Graph isomorphism now as well. I'm not very well versed in this stuff at all
10:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, wait, I wonder if elliott will let us create Category:Shameful now.
10:15:02 <graue> oh my god this quine is awesome
10:15:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's funnier as a redlink
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10:16:47 <graue> ais523: hold on, i made a slight modification to make it shorter
10:17:01 <graue> and now i have to test it to make sure i didn't mess up (it took 2m39s to run last time)
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10:20:37 <graue> http://pastebin.ca/2126776
10:22:23 <graue> you can run it using http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/impl/sortle.pl
10:22:38 <graue> the other interpreter written in C is hopelessly buggy, so it won't work
10:23:07 <zzo38> Yes perhaps Category:Shameful is better as a link to a nonexistent page
10:27:14 <zzo38> I would think the most basic level of ephemeris software interface would be a function taking a date/time, major object number, and minor object number as input; and as output you have three sets of XYZ coordinates: the center, the north pole, and the longitude reference. And then apply other geometry and trigonometry and whatever to make up the other stuff it should be sufficient, even for rotation.
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10:28:43 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: can you make it work as version for marsians too? :P
10:29:36 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: The way I have described it, yes it works for Martians too. But I do not know of implementation of such a thing as this, however.
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10:32:02 <zzo38> It should be easy enough to subtract XYZ coordinates to center it on any planet, sun, or moon; from there you can convert to angles.
10:46:44 <zzo38> However I don't really know a lot about ephemeris calculations; I am simply describing a programming interface which could be implemented by any ephemeris program, and then everything else can be defined in a common way from that.
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10:50:29 <zzo38> (Possible things to implement in terms of the basic function: sidereal time, apparent positions (taking speed of light into account), precession, ecliptic and equatorial coordinates, houses, phase of moon, horizon coordinates, etc)
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10:57:07 <zzo38> class EphemerisClass x where { openEphemeris :: String -> IO x; closeEphemeris :: x -> IO (); accessEphemeris :: EphTime -> ObjMajor -> ObjMinor -> x -> IO (Either EphemerisError (XYZ, XYZ, XYZ)); }; data Ephemeris = Ephemeris { getEphemeris :: forall x. EphemerisClass x => x }; might be specification of this interface in Haskell.
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11:11:31 <Sgeo> `WELCOME tzxn3
11:11:38 <HackEgo> TZXN3: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
11:12:31 <Sgeo> TZXN3, THAT LINK IS BROKEN, YOU SHOULD GO TO http://ESOLANGS.ORG/wiki/Main_Page INSTEAD.
11:12:47 <tzxn3> WHY ARE WE SHOUTING
11:12:59 <Sgeo> BECAUSE WE CAN
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11:23:20 <Sgeo> (welcome MoALTz)
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11:37:11 <Sgeo> Hitaneb. Did you see the most reeetn update?
11:37:34 <Taneb> The one with Lord English?
11:38:15 <Taneb> I reckon Andrew Hussie's avatar is going to be killed
11:45:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Not a particularly insightful theory, given that LE was holding his severed head.
11:46:08 <Sgeo> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128272 does this make any sense?
11:46:11 <Sgeo> To me, it doesn't
11:46:41 <Taneb> That's Robot Hussie.
11:46:45 <Sgeo> Usual definitions just mean doing the test and letting it be the result of the test.
11:46:50 <Taneb> Robot Hussie may not be Hussie
11:46:54 <Sgeo> This definition does something rather different, as far as I can tell
11:47:13 <Sgeo> Using it within the body of the else, unless I'm mistaken, will result in the test being executed again.
11:47:33 <Sgeo> Assuming that it even runs, considering ... oh, it will run
11:47:55 <ion> Ooh, no wonder the name Andrew Hussie sounded familiar. He’s half of the group who made http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9CCCF2C09E92679B
11:48:07 <ion> What’s his avatar?
11:48:54 <Taneb> Character in MS Paint Adventures, which he writes
11:53:51 <graue> i just wrote a digital root program in sortle
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11:54:36 <graue> so it's got a digital root, quine, BCT implementation and fibonacci
11:54:58 <graue> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/sortle/src/digroot.sort
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11:57:57 <graue> i have looked at your work on qdeql with great interest
11:58:08 <graue> but not with particularly great comprehension
11:59:19 <graue> what was the precise flaw in my 6-year-old reasoning for declaring it not TC?
12:00:11 <oerjan> as far as i could see, the idea that you couldn't get back to a spot without knowing the precise length of queue to traverse
12:00:23 <graue> so how do you do that?
12:01:17 <oerjan> well my first idea after realizing that weakness was that if you have a string of an unknown number of copies of 255 0 0, then you can pass over all of them with \\/\//
12:01:39 <oerjan> (you will notice that's the default command for the data section in the table)
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12:03:41 <oerjan> there's a problem with that, though - it gobbles up a 0 at the end, which is awkward to replace. the entire factory construction grew out of the attempt to replenish that zero. (i'm still not entirely convinced there isn't a simpler way.)
12:04:29 <graue> ah, i see... you have an arbitrary length string of "nonzero 0 0", terminated by an extra 0
12:05:10 <oerjan> however the factory had other advantages, it can both be adjusted to produce almost as many zeros as you want, and it can absorb garbage 255's at the other end.
12:06:37 <graue> is there any particular reason you use numbers other than 255 and 0?
12:07:55 <oerjan> graue: yes, the factory depends on being able to get _rid_ of its 255 again, which can only be done by decrementing them.
12:08:33 <oerjan> that's also the only way to "release" the zeros at produces at the left end.
12:10:06 <oerjan> basically my problem was that the only way to produce zeros is to the right of a non-zero, which doesn't help when you want to supply zeros toward the left.
12:11:55 <oerjan> (i have not found a way to produce them fast using just non-zeros at the end of the data loop, but i haven't proved that it's completely impossible, either.)
12:12:14 <graue> what's "fast enough"?
12:13:25 <oerjan> fast enought to replenish what the data loop gobbles up.
12:15:16 <graue> so is your bf to qdeql translator fully complete/correct now?
12:16:18 <oerjan> as far as i know, yes. it's for a fixed (but arbitrary) number of cells, as stated. also it will crash if you try to decrement a 0. (i _can_ fix that but it makes - take two cycles instead of one.)
12:17:02 <graue> huh, that's really cool
12:18:25 <Sgeo> Is there a way to translate infinite cells with fixed size to finite cells with infinite size easily?
12:19:02 <graue> that's the question i was thinking about (but s/infinite/unbounded/g)
12:19:09 <nortti> Sgeo: I am currently working on that
12:19:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: there's a link to such a construction in the brainfuck article, i think
12:20:11 <oerjan> graue: however there is probably a more direct way, though. you could make the data section have the form 255 0 b1 255 0 0 b2 ... instead, and pass over with \\/\/=/.
12:21:06 <oerjan> i figured that would make each brainfuck command more complicated though - with a two-stack construction, you need a multi-cycle loop just to move bytes for a > or <
12:21:35 <oerjan> *255 0 0 b1 255 0 0 b2 ...
12:21:55 <graue> so b1 and b2 would be two adjacent bytes on bf's tape?
12:22:29 <graue> that would be cool
12:22:43 <oerjan> and one of the stacks would probably store 255 0 0 -b1 instead, that makes copying slightly more efficient i think.
12:23:03 <graue> the brainfuck article has frans faase's reduction from 5-register UTMs in 5-cell bf, and your reduction from iterated collatz functions to 3-cell bf
12:23:23 <graue> but no procedure to translate from unbounded-cell bf to n-cell bf
12:23:49 <oerjan> i'm sure i've seen it, maybe it is linked from faase's page?
12:24:14 <nortti> does anyone know how to do integer division by 2 with bf using 2 cells?
12:24:38 <graue> oerjan: from a quick look doesn't seem to be
12:26:26 <oerjan> nortti: try my [[Collatz function]] converter, it can do that.
12:28:28 <oerjan> darn now faase's pages don't load
12:28:51 <graue> i have http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html up
12:32:39 <oerjan> graue: i guess he starts with turing machines, although translating from bounded cell bf to turing machines is sort of trivial.
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12:42:43 <oerjan> hm actually it may be he's just handling _one_ particular TM.
12:47:21 <oerjan> (by trivial i mean: make each position in the bf program a TM state, and then the transition table basically writes itself.)
12:48:08 <oerjan> also make each byte value a symbol.
12:57:09 <nortti> I tried to make a conversion table from infinite 1bit cells bf to 3 unbound cells bf and now my brain hurts
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12:58:05 <oerjan> nortti: perhaps interleaving the 1bit cells for each unbound cell?
12:58:33 <oerjan> unary would also make it easier, i think.
12:59:26 <nortti> oearjan: I tried to create a tape using two stacks but it didn't really work, because I couldn't get moving item from stack to another work
13:00:18 <oerjan> oh wait _from_ infinite 1bit, hm.
13:00:44 <nortti> I needed at least 6 cells
13:01:19 <oerjan> nortti: if you want to go down to 3 cells, you need to go via something like fractran.
13:01:50 <oerjan> and mind you it's still awkward. i still don't know how to do arbitrary _output_.
13:02:04 <oerjan> (or any interleaved input/output.)
13:06:09 <graue> oerjan: before you got here, i was working on a DIFFERENT language i invented in 2005, sortle
13:06:19 <graue> and here are the fruits of my labors: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sortle#Examples
13:09:19 <graue> i'm pretty happy about that quine
13:17:50 <nortti> is the bf to qdeql cell number limit fixed to 3 cells or can it use be limited to any given number of cells
13:19:16 <cheater_> oerjan: what have you done? http://www.nature.com/news/lsd-helps-to-treat-alcoholism-1.10200
13:19:32 <cheater_> The study1, by neuroscientist Teri Krebs and clinical psychologist Pål-Ørjan Johansen of the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim, is the first-ever quantitative meta-analysis of LSD–alcoholism clinical trials.
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13:20:00 <oerjan> istr seeing that Pål-Ørjan guy when googling myself
13:20:54 <cheater_> the burden of being the namesake of a celebrity
13:20:58 <oerjan> nortti: any fixed number, the haskell converter takes it as a command line argument.
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13:21:12 <itidus21> the important thing is cheater wasn't googling you, rather he was seeking a cure for his alcoholism
13:22:48 <oerjan> nortti: mind you the higher the number, the more the translation blows up (because it often has to rotate through all the cells before doing another real action)
13:24:09 <oerjan> <nortti> wasn't false's TCnes also proven just recently?
13:24:20 <oerjan> that's was a site effect of the underload one, actually
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13:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> In the Star Trek universe, God is represented primarily through the medium of passport photos.
13:48:39 <oerjan> in _all_ passport photos, surely.
13:52:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, how better to know the mind, or at least the face unobscured by hair and glasses, of God?
13:52:41 <hagb4rd2> i loved the southpark version of god, who himself pretends to be a buddhist
13:58:55 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
13:58:58 <HackEgo> 822) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
14:04:54 <graue> oerjan: what got you interested in qdeql?
14:05:19 <oerjan> graue: your edit where you added the FSA category :P
14:06:38 <graue> you know, when i did that i was basing it off the article text that said qdeql was equivalent to smetana
14:07:11 <graue> which at the time, i could have sworn was written by chris pressey
14:07:30 <graue> when i viewed the history and saw that paragraph was actually written by me, i was astonished
14:09:51 <graue> yeah, i wouldn't have been so quick to assume it was accurate, if i knew i had written it myself
14:10:37 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
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14:51:09 <itidus21> [PROG][WRITE:"Hello, world!"][ENDPROG]
14:52:26 <Jafet> What do you want to write with? bfnG ['?' for help]:
15:09:28 <itidus21> i get some very weird google image search responses for bfn
15:14:05 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:15:07 -!- itidus21 has joined.
15:17:46 <Jafet> > filter (not.flip elem "aeiou") "befunge"
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16:51:14 <hagb4rd2> how can i search the log again?
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16:54:04 <HackEgo> 2010-04-26.txt:07:29:25: <pikhq> Could be worse. Could be Oklahoma, and get a bunch of cicadas flying in...
16:57:01 <olsner> not wildcards, but regexps
16:59:11 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:16:58:55: <hagb4rd> `log .*elliott.*cicadas.*
16:59:43 <nortti> olsner: `log *elliott*cicadas* look like it's using wildcards
17:02:08 <zzo38> You can put square brackets around one of the letters to avoid accessing itself
17:02:56 <hagb4rd> `log .*[hagb4rd].*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:04:12 <zzo38> No, around a single letter.
17:04:17 <nortti> `log *[hagb4rd]*elliott*cicadas*
17:04:45 <zzo38> `log .*[h]agb4rd.*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:05:01 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:17:04:17: <nortti> `log *[hagb4rd]*elliott*cicadas*
17:06:22 <olsner> `log PROCEDURE DIVISION. SEARCH 'cicadas'. STOP RUN.
17:06:29 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:17:06:22: <olsner> `log PROCEDURE DIVISION. SEARCH 'cicadas'. STOP RUN.
17:06:53 <olsner> although it works just as well as wildcards :>
17:07:23 <hagb4rd> `log .*[!4].*elliott.*cicadas.*
17:07:41 <HackEgo> 2012-03-11.txt:16:53:42: <hagb4rd> `log *elliott*cicadas*
17:08:00 <hagb4rd> what is the regexp for NOT
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18:15:12 <elliott> someone just created [[Category:Shameful]] again...
18:17:57 <elliott> No, [[Category:Shameful]] has far more stringent standards (and does not officially exist).
18:18:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Shameful
18:23:14 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310102926]).
18:24:26 <zzo38> Not is what we have not got!
18:31:11 <Sgeo> What did the page say?
18:32:04 <elliott> This time, it was "Yes, shameful.".
18:32:10 <elliott> Last time, it was "Ain't it a shame?".
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:11:31: <Sgeo> `WELCOME tzxn3
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:11:38: <HackEgo> TZXN3: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
18:33:07 <elliott> 11:12:31: <Sgeo> TZXN3, THAT LINK IS BROKEN, YOU SHOULD GO TO http://ESOLANGS.ORG/wiki/Main_Page INSTEAD.
18:33:11 <elliott> Sgeo: HE'S BEEN HERE BEFORE YOU IDIOT
18:33:53 <HackEgo> SGEO: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
18:34:25 <Sgeo> That link is still broken
18:35:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU CREATE [[CATEGORY:SHAMEFUL]]?
18:41:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YOU SHOULD ADD A REDIRECT FOR THAT ONE URL JUST SO THAT `WELCOME WORKS BETTER.
18:42:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I'm competing with you in nick length now.
18:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so whoising the IP should show if it's an Edinburgh address or not.
18:42:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ASKING YOU WAS EASIER.
18:43:01 <RocketJSquirrel> The discovery that this nick was free brought great joy to me and my aviator's helmet.
18:43:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I ALREADY SAID THAT I'M GOING TO MAKE IT A (READ-ONLY) VIEW ONTO THE WIKI WHERE EVERYTHING IS UPPERCASED.
18:43:24 <elliott> IF ANYONE KNOWS A PROGRAM FOR TRANSFORMING HTML IN THIS WAY (WITHOUT E.G. DISTURBING THE CONTENTS OF SCRIPT TAGS), PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
18:45:32 <olsner> i.e. use a font where lower-case characters look uppercase
18:45:35 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: FORBIDDEN
18:45:42 <elliott> olsner: Oh wait, I can just text-transform: uppercase...
18:45:45 <elliott> But what RocketJSquirrel said.
18:53:30 * Phantom_Hoover is unclear on whether f.lux even works on non-APT systems.
18:53:44 <elliott> Oh yeah, it definitely depends integrally on a package manager.
18:53:51 <elliott> It uses it to tell the time.
18:55:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=41229
18:55:12 <fizzie> Oh no my name was mentioned. Is something the up?
18:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, can you use your awesome powers to glue the entire Reddit Epic Thread into one page?
18:58:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was going to do that.
18:58:28 <fizzie> I think I was supposed to, already, but got sidetracked and forgot.
18:58:59 <fizzie> At least it sounds slightly familiar.
18:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Children will laugh at you and your woman will leave you for an elf.
18:59:19 <elliott> fizzie: It's illegal to remember something if the person reminding you only remembered it because they saw me mention it.
18:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Because he is more manly than you (not because she was a lesbian, that wouldn't be as bad).
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19:04:42 * Phantom_Hoover discovers that the f.lux from that package has no documentation.
19:05:19 <Deewiant> Use redshift, it has a man page.
19:05:40 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:07:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: * Phantom_Hoover discovers that the f.lux from that package has no documentation.
19:08:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pacman -Ql flux-gui | grep '/bin'
19:08:16 <elliott> Run the one that isn't xflux or whatever.
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19:47:29 <mroman> how do you write broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses o_O
19:47:54 <mroman> The wound kinda thing.
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19:51:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:53:18 <mroman> English most be the only language in which it nearly impossible to get the writing from the reading :)
19:54:00 <nortti> mroman: what do you mean?
19:54:35 <mroman> You have to many things which almost sound identical.
19:55:09 <mroman> I'm pretty sure, broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses would be pronounced almost exactly like bruises ;)
19:55:21 <nortti> you mean like too and to?
19:56:27 <mroman> If someone tells you a word, which es not an actual english word
19:56:31 <mroman> Could you write it correctly?
19:56:44 <mroman> Which means, you have to guess the writing from the pronounciation.
19:56:56 <nortti> mroman: what is your native language?
19:58:42 <nortti> Oh. My native language is Finnish, and I have never really had that much of a problem with it
19:59:07 <mroman> I never would have thought of "bruises"
19:59:25 <mroman> I searched for "broozes, bruces, brooses, bruses, bruzes" and more.
19:59:48 <mroman> When I hear an english word, I can't look it up in a dictionary.
19:59:50 <Deewiant> Googling "brooses" gives "Showing results for bruises"
20:00:22 <mroman> Even though I know what it means and how it is pronounced, I can't derive the writing.
20:00:38 <elliott> it's impossible to derive the spelling of a word from its pronunciation in general in English
20:00:44 <elliott> so it's not like you're missing anything
20:01:00 <elliott> but what Deewiant said, you can throw a terribly phonetically-pronounced word into Google and it'll usually correct it :P
20:01:02 <mroman> That drives me crazy :(
20:01:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:02:09 <mroman> That's why you have spelling bees ;)
20:02:16 <mroman> Would make no sense in german.
20:02:25 <nortti> elliott: I can usually do that. I have no idea why, but it is almost allways correct
20:04:00 <elliott> nortti: That's not really "deriving" so much as intuition... sure, there are guidelines, but no hard rules :P
20:04:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
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20:05:06 <oerjan> <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YOU SHOULD ADD A REDIRECT FOR THAT ONE URL JUST SO THAT `WELCOME WORKS BETTER. <-- /me agrees with RocketJSquirrel
20:05:40 <elliott> oerjan: See the later, better idea that I already planned :P
20:05:51 -!- calamari has joined.
20:05:57 <oerjan> let me guess, you're going to make it work for all wiki urls.
20:06:15 <oerjan> (i half-guessed that even before you answered)
20:06:49 <oerjan> yes, except for the first letter
20:07:16 <elliott> oerjan: <oerjan> let me guess, you're going to make it work for all wiki urls.
20:07:25 <elliott> well, yes, but also I'm going to make it uppercase all the text on the page
20:08:02 <elliott> nortti: because it's /WIKI/
20:08:39 <nortti> what if someone uses /WiKi/ ?
20:09:20 <oerjan> ThAt CoUlD gEt AwKwArD
20:09:29 <RocketJSquirrel> What if someone uses /fast/? You'll have to translate all the pages from Hawaiian to English.
20:09:53 <elliott> "why does POSIX have recursive mutexes? Because of a dare. (groups.google.com)"
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20:13:56 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
20:15:12 -!- lament has joined.
20:15:21 <lament> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:15:34 <HackEgo> LAMENT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
20:15:56 <oerjan> if the link still doesn't work, blame elliott
20:17:39 -!- MoALTz has joined.
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20:21:34 <elliott> If the elliott still doesn't work, blame the link.
20:21:50 <ion> Don’t blame elliott, blame ELLIOTT.
20:23:30 * oerjan recalls when "blame canada" was nominated for an oscar
20:23:56 <oerjan> i think elliott wasn't born then. or maybe barely.
20:24:22 <lament> it's not as good as unclefuka
20:26:50 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
20:27:12 <elliott> oerjan: Thank you, I was hoping someone other than me would take care of that message.
20:27:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Ehird#.22this_category_doesn.27t_exist.2C_so_it_shouldn.27t_need_a_page.22
20:27:42 <elliott> in resp. to (Deletion log); 18:24 . . Ehird (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Category:Shameful" (this category doesn't exist, so it shouldn't need a page)
20:27:58 <Sgeo> Although I shouldn't have asked, found it myself
20:28:27 <elliott> I had to sacrifice three innocent souls to give you those links. :(
20:29:01 <lament> Category:Shameful should just redirect to Category:Unimplemented
20:29:45 <elliott> Thus making Eodermdrome shameful, but not Snack.
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20:30:57 <shadwick> lament: the only problem is some shameful languages are (shamefully) implemented
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20:33:40 <nortti> wasn't someone working on FURScript implementation on Visual Basic?
20:34:22 <Sgeo> Someone should implement Esme.
20:34:29 <elliott> The person who designed this language was 100% serious about it and the vb6 compiler, but I think he got as far as a text box and a copyright notice before going back to programming his graphics calculator. --Einsidler 10:44, 24 Nov 2006 (UTC)
20:35:22 <shadwick> hahaha "[DIRFORMAT="DIRECTORY","BYPASSSECURITY?"]"
20:36:11 <shadwick> has anyone talked to 'EvincarOfAutumn' at all recently? He made Alchemy in 2008 and it was quite a neat setting I think
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20:38:29 <oerjan> hm i didn't really notice him disappearing
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20:38:57 <shadwick> his page still says he wants to get back into it, but it was last updated 4 years ago
20:39:13 <shadwick> I was gonna try to contact him to ask a bit more about Alchemy. Would be fun to write an interpreter for it
20:39:17 <oerjan> well we've seen evincar more recently than that, on irc
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20:40:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26714
20:40:49 <shadwick> oerjan: thanks. I'm just checking google and he has a twitter so I can contact him there
20:41:05 <oerjan> argh it cut off due to too many lines
20:41:44 <oerjan> `pastelogs -!- evincar
20:41:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27434
20:45:11 <oerjan> last i recall he did was an argument substitution language that couldn't possibly work because of extreme ambiguity
20:46:13 <oerjan> ...probably been years since that too
20:46:56 <shadwick> sometime I'll get around to asking him some questions about Alchemy that I think aren't detailed properly / are missing on the Wiki page for it
20:47:07 <shadwick> and then maybe I'd write an interpreter for it
20:48:54 <elliott> <oerjan> hm i didn't really notice him disappearing
20:49:07 <elliott> oerjan: You could say he got sick of us, if you wanted to reverse the subject and object of the truth.
20:49:41 <elliott> Last time he was in here was after a very wrong blog post of his got on reddit.
20:49:43 <oerjan> diplomatic is very elliott.
20:54:24 <elliott> Hey oerjan, I've made you an administrator so you can ensure [[Category:Shameful]]'s continued nonexistence!
20:54:45 <lament> can't you just make it a special case in the source code
20:55:09 <oerjan> isn't there any kind of protection against creation?
20:55:34 <elliott> Yeah, you can protect pages that don't exist... but that would be official recognition.
20:57:15 <elliott> I could ban deletion by default, and then permit every other possible page title in existence.
20:57:36 <lament> i was just about to suggest that
20:59:35 <elliott> I've made oerjan an administrator so he can get right on doing that.
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22:26:50 <ion> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
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22:50:53 <oerjan> now much expanded qdeql translation explanation
22:51:15 <oerjan> it remains to be seen if anyone can understand it now.
22:52:19 <oerjan> also, someone tell User:JiminP about preview.
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23:05:22 <elliott> oerjan: ok. the someone is: you!
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23:30:29 <elliott> oerjan: ok seriously yell at him
23:30:38 <elliott> i like how he's started to mark some of them as minor
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