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00:40:41 <josefnpat_> Hey guys, after many years of loving esoteric languages (like brainfuck) I've written my own, and am interested in knowing if there is a submission process, or if I just add a page on the wiki about it.
00:41:07 <HackEgo> josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
00:41:25 <shadwick> you guys get the capital version working yet?
00:41:51 <RocketJSquirrel> josefnpat_: You should look at the categories and try to categorize it properly.
00:42:20 <shadwick> josefnpat_: I like when the pages have enough details that you could write an interpreter/compiler for that language without ambiguities
00:42:34 <josefnpat_> I've written a interpreter for it already
00:42:57 <josefnpat_> I need a bit more doc before I contribute it, but it's almost done.
00:45:30 <josefnpat_> RocketJSquirrel, where is the catagories page? I am not very good with wikimedia.
00:45:59 <RocketJSquirrel> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&limit=500
00:46:00 <shadwick> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Categories
00:46:54 <josefnpat_> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
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00:54:03 <elliott> josefnpat_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization is a better guide to categories
00:54:07 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy karupdate, if you didn
00:54:44 <Sgeo> Except for Shameful
00:55:05 <Sgeo> Just memorize the non-existence of Shameful
00:55:15 <josefnpat_> I have added "2012", and "Joke languages"
00:55:22 <elliott> You'll also have to memorise the non-existence of Auisduisdiujif.
00:55:48 <elliott> josefnpat_: it doesn't look like a joke language to me (n.b. the definition of joke language we use differs from the common English meaning of the term)
00:56:04 <elliott> "This is a list of esoteric languages that are not of any interest except for potential humor value. Generally speaking, they are completely unusable for programming even in theory, trivial and less interesting variations on existing esoteric languages, or too underspecified to determine any potential usability."
00:56:40 <elliott> [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2012]] [[Category:Unknown computational class]], probably
00:56:50 <elliott> [[Category:Low-level]] also
00:57:08 <Sgeo> What's that language that has a severe difference in reference implementation vs spec?
00:57:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Malbolge? Not that severe, though.
00:57:41 <Sgeo> elliott, I think that's the one I was thinking of
00:57:59 <Sgeo> And with regards to it not being severe: Oh.
00:59:03 * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit
00:59:40 <josefnpat_> I'm not going to lie, I had a lot of fun writing this, lol.
00:59:45 <RocketJSquirrel> * elliott twiddles http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuck a bit // so dirty
00:59:57 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Come on, it's not even a brainfuck.
01:00:28 <josefnpat_> I'm working up a basic example use case (as opposed to simple programs)
01:01:39 * elliott is shocked nobody came up with an esolang called "fuck" before.
01:02:40 <elliott> I see the implementation is in PHP. It's always best when esolangs are implemented in other esolangs.
01:03:01 <josefnpat_> Should I re-write it in brainfuck or Ook?
01:03:17 <elliott> Why would you rewrite it in a less esoteric language?
01:03:28 <josefnpat_> But seriously, if there's enough intrest, i'd be willing to re-write it in C
01:04:04 <josefnpat_> I've got some issues opened about making is_numberic() more portable anyway.
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01:04:33 <josefnpat_> but I wrote it in php to get the kinks out.
01:05:20 <shadwick> I usually find a lot of php to have kinks in it
01:05:32 <shadwick> behaviour in the stdlib I mean
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01:05:47 <elliott> Friendship: You forgot /nick RocketJSquirrel.
01:05:52 <Sgeo> What about Common Lisp in terms of standard lib kinks?
01:05:54 <elliott> You're half-way up the ladder of nicks.
01:06:05 <shadwick> Sgeo: I don't know CL (...yet!)
01:06:07 <elliott> shadwick: If only PHP's kinks were limited to the stdlib!
01:06:14 -!- Friendship has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
01:06:29 <Sgeo> shadwick, you will soon learn that I am a language tourist. I obsess over one language at a time.
01:06:42 <Sgeo> While never actually using the language for anything
01:06:52 <Sgeo> Maybe THIS is the language that will change all that (yeah right)
01:08:04 <Sgeo> I take it PHP is a very kinky language?
01:08:41 <josefnpat_> and by wrong hands i mean the owner of said hands are idiots.
01:08:53 <elliott> I must be an idiot then :(
01:08:54 <Sgeo> Common Lisp can be like that too really
01:09:58 <Sgeo> (format t ":/")
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01:10:37 <elliott> monqy: Say hi to josefnpat_.
01:10:43 <monqy> `welcome josefnpat_
01:10:45 <HackEgo> josefnpat_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:10:46 <monqy> `welcome shadwick_
01:10:48 <shadwick_> ugh. anyways, by being rocketed to popularity on the net, PHP got tons of crap
01:10:49 <HackEgo> shadwick_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:11:19 <shadwick_> it took off and now it's half procedural with poor OOP slapped on some bits
01:11:36 <shadwick_> and things like `real_' preceding some functions..
01:12:37 <Sgeo> CL's CLOS can act a bit slapped on at times. Particularly, a lot of built-in functions are not generic
01:12:41 <Sgeo> When they could be
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01:13:01 <Sgeo> Although, it wouldn't be that hard to make a thin layering over the top where functions like car and cdr are generic..
01:13:03 <shadwick_> Sgeo: what about this fabled MOP I've heard of?
01:13:17 -!- shadwick_ has changed nick to shadwick.
01:14:10 <Sgeo> I don't know much about the MOP
01:14:12 <Sgeo> Still learning
01:14:34 <Sgeo> It's still a better object system, I think, than a lot of others, even if it is perhaps complex
01:14:56 <Sgeo> But it's not as thoroughly done as in, say, Smalltalk.
01:15:04 <shadwick> I haven't dabbled with CL really at all, but I always hear talk of all the macros and meta programming
01:15:31 <Sgeo> I think CL macros are easier to understand than Scheme macros, but then again I don't know much about Scheme macros
01:15:55 <shadwick> I saw a scheme macro that allowed a function to memoize results, and be defined with argument pattern matching
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01:16:56 <Sgeo> Yeah, CL's macros can do that too. With CL macros, you literally get a chunk of the source and transform it into something else
01:17:12 <Sgeo> So, within the macro, the syntax that your macro takes can be pretty much anything you like
01:17:40 <elliott> (Except for being completely limited, lexically.)
01:17:42 <shadwick> I've heard scheme's macros are stunted compared to CL though
01:18:26 <elliott> In the same way that Java is stunted compared to C because you can't cause segfaults
01:18:34 <elliott> (OK, Java is stunted compared to C, but not for that reason.)
01:19:58 <elliott> OK, you do lose some power, but it's also a lot more convenient to define macros once you get used to it, and eliminates a very common source of errors.
01:20:07 <elliott> (And there's not all that many uses of the lost power in practice.)
01:20:31 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm, macros can take environment objects, but those are implementation-dependent. Would it be feasible to make a cross-platform library that understands each implementation (similarly to networking libraries or cffi, for example), and allows you to do sane things with the environment?
01:22:03 <elliott> I don't know what language you are talking about.
01:34:47 <Sgeo> elliott, what are some uses (besides hygiene) of inspecting the lexical environment?
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01:36:12 <elliott> I don't really know what you mean.
01:38:04 <Sgeo> Is the only deal with hygiene how it prevents hygiene errors?
01:38:10 <Sgeo> Or are there benefits beyond that?
01:49:52 <elliott> Is the only deal of a type system how it prevents type errors?
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02:01:54 <RocketJSquirrel> By removing all type-related errors from JS' spec and giving them defined but senseless behaviors (note: this involves almost nothing since most type errors already have senseless behavior), I can get a perfect progress guarantee with no static types.
02:09:25 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I laugh, yet dearly hope no industry programmers are listening to adopt your ideas.
02:09:44 <elliott> THIS IS WHAT LEAD TO NODE.JS, YOU FOOL
02:09:55 <monqy> i don't know anything about node.js
02:10:08 <monqy> aside from js server thingy
02:10:24 <shachaf> elliott: Why aren't you in any of the cool channels?
02:10:34 <elliott> monqy: You know how GHC has that awesome event manager, so you write blocking, threaded, sequential IO code and it uses epoll/kqueue asynchronous magic under the hood?
02:11:07 <elliott> node.js is like that, except it just forces you to write your program in continuation-passing style instead. And it's cooperative, so you can't block to do a computation. Ever.
02:11:22 <shachaf> elliott: It's not exactly continuation-passing style.
02:11:32 <elliott> This has convinced an entire generation of programmers that, as long as you tediously write every single statement as a callback, your server will be web scale.
02:11:39 <elliott> shachaf: Uh... it's exactly CPS.
02:11:46 <monqy> an entire generation
02:11:46 <elliott> Yes, an ENTIRE GENERATION.
02:11:51 <elliott> Programmers live about 3 years.
02:11:53 <monqy> AN entire generation
02:11:54 <shachaf> elliott: foo(function(...) { ... }); bar(function(...) { ... }); ...
02:12:25 <elliott> shachaf: That's just how you do concurrency with asynchronous CPS.
02:12:30 <monqy> shachaf: maybe when I was alive
02:12:31 <shachaf> elliott: Which one of those is the continuation?
02:12:43 <elliott> Compare forkIO (foo >>= ...); forkIO (bar >>= ...)
02:12:48 <shachaf> elliott: What about when you have button.onclick = function(...) { ... }; is that a continuation?
02:13:09 <shachaf> elliott: Those are hardly the same. forkIO happens at a completely different level from this CPS mess.
02:13:15 <elliott> The point is that the continuation-passing view isn't very useful there.
02:13:24 <shachaf> Anyway, for a definition of "CPS" that includes that, I agree.
02:13:30 <elliott> But with node.js, the vast majority of programs lean heavily right.
02:13:30 <Sgeo> elliott, wouldn't that make sense if the language had support for writing CPS as though it were more straighforward, or otherwise had first-class continuations (Scheme)?
02:13:56 <Sgeo> Or if the language were at least capable of supporting a way of rearranging source code (ala cl-cont)
02:13:59 <elliott> Sgeo: That would mean you're not programming in continuation-passing style.
02:14:08 <Sgeo> elliott, but you still get the benefits of continuations
02:14:13 <Sgeo> Without any tedium
02:14:17 <shachaf> do-notation is exactly "support for writing CPS as though it were more straightforward"
02:14:35 <shachaf> That's what do-notation does. The thing that you give >>= is a "continuation".
02:15:11 <Sgeo> So, Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp. Any of those languages would be good for this sort of thing, right? Unlike, uh. Javascript?
02:15:14 <Sgeo> Oh, Smalltalk too
02:15:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Is "but if you have a better language, you can do something different and it works better" meant to be a counterargument to anything I have said?
02:15:33 <shachaf> That's why the whole Cont "mother of all monads" thing works.
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02:17:18 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, there have been many source-transformers written for JavaScript to give it this sort of feature.
02:17:29 <elliott> node.js programmers don't use them.
02:18:23 <shachaf> Anyway, I guess it's make-fun-of-node.js-o'clock.
02:18:57 <shachaf> elliott: The part that you haven't considered is that the only alternative to using node.js is using Ruby on Rails.
02:19:04 <shachaf> Because, like, what else would you use, man?
02:19:09 <elliott> Honestly, I would pick Rails.
02:19:34 <elliott> This is despite the fact that one of them is a TCP framework with an HTTP library and the other one is a web framework.
02:19:53 <shachaf> node.js doesn't support UDP?
02:21:11 <shachaf> The opposite of JavaScript, as we know, is Haskell.
02:21:21 <shachaf> So what would be the opposite of node.js? That's right, yesde.hs.
02:21:32 <shachaf> A leading web framework for Haskell is called "Yesod".
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02:31:02 <elliott> shachaf: Wouldn't the opposite of "de" be the country code of the opposite of Germany?
02:31:33 <shachaf> elliott: What's the opposite of Germany?
02:31:55 <shachaf> I have no idea how that happened.
02:32:00 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure I typed "TLD"
02:35:34 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Roll out the squirrel! We'll have a squirrel of TLAAAAAAD! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ has moved servers!.
02:37:03 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel = Friendship?
02:37:10 <shachaf> I can't keep up with all your names, man.
02:37:33 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D
02:37:55 <Sgeo> RocketJSquirrel, or rather, you were variations on Gregor
02:38:00 <Sgeo> And elsewhere, you were a Lawlabee
02:38:38 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Y'know, I don't usually change nicks, I was Gregor for /years/ before I switched to Friendship X-D
02:38:42 <elliott> You were GregorR for years.
02:38:53 <elliott> GregorR-L was the best Gregor.
02:57:19 <pikhq_> "Don't usually change nicks", you say? Lame.
02:57:31 <pikhq_> Why, I dare say you've yet to use a nick for a decade!
02:59:25 <RocketJSquirrel> IRL I have ... I've been called Gregor for well over a decade ;)
03:00:07 <pikhq_> Yeah, but that doesn't matter.
03:05:19 <Sgeo> I've used this nick for a decade
03:05:28 <Sgeo> Not all in the same place, admittedly
03:05:40 <shachaf> I've had this nick for life.
03:06:02 <Sgeo> Well, do sgeo and Sgeo count as the same nick?
03:06:09 <Sgeo> (Either way, it's a decade)
03:06:50 <shachaf> No, those are very different.
03:06:54 <shachaf> One is a valid UNIX username.
03:06:59 <shachaf> The other is an abomination.
03:07:08 <shachaf> (I used to go by Shachaf, I guess. But that's practically the same.)
03:07:30 <pikhq_> My nick is about to have its 15th anniversary.
03:08:44 <RocketJSquirrel> 'cuz my username has been "gregor" for well over a decade too X-D
03:08:50 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeabomination.
03:09:33 * pikhq_ has also been using this for the majority of his life
03:12:09 <elliott> I've been called "Elliott" my entire life!!!
03:13:05 <elliott> You haven't been called RocketJSquirrel your entire life.
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03:52:15 <shachaf> You're practically anti-scary.
03:54:21 <graue> random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one?
03:54:29 <graue> because i feel like this community is all dudes
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03:57:02 <graue> i wonder if there's even like a token counterexample
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04:01:07 <Jafet> graue: Lenore Blum co-created the BSS machine
04:01:29 <Jafet> It's not really esoteric in that it is hypothetical
04:01:34 <graue> is that on esowiki?
04:02:41 <graue> i'm reading about it on that other wiki now
04:03:14 <Jafet> If you haven't figured it out by now, my answer is no
04:03:46 <Jafet> Females tend to have different concepts of weirdness than males
04:03:58 <graue> well, i think what it is really, even more than that
04:04:10 <graue> is that the whole field of computing has a gender imbalance problem
04:04:22 <Jafet> So if one of them created a language, it would have the potential to be really, really esoteric
04:04:25 <MSleep> Dr. Robotnik made the Mean Bean Machine.
04:04:25 <MSleep> It's not really esoteric in that it is a Puyo Puyo game.
04:04:47 <graue> you sayin' dr. robotnik uses the ladies room these days, or what?
04:05:09 <graue> Jafet: ah i misunderstood where you were going with that
04:05:12 <MSleep> I don't know, i jsut compied what WIkipedia said it was.
04:05:13 <Jafet> Languages in academia tend to not be classified as esoteric for some reason
04:05:29 <graue> well, we have an article on P''
04:05:43 <graue> and stuff on tag machines and minsky machines and of course, UTMs
04:05:44 <Jafet> Yes, but does it call P'' an esolang?
04:05:47 <graue> it could be relevant
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04:06:15 <graue> i'd certainly consider fractran an esolang
04:06:18 <MSleep> Also I just read about the BSS machine without looking at the lines above that.
04:06:24 <Jafet> Esolangs are languages created for recreational purposes, I suppose
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04:07:34 <Jafet> Perhaps the ladies tend to not consider this activity recreational
04:08:18 <shadwick> started an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alchemy today because it doesn't have one
04:08:19 <graue> yeah, it's a brainteaser really
04:08:26 <graue> like doing crossword puzzles but for computer scientists
04:08:31 <shadwick> this isn't a particularly tricky language, but fun anyways
04:09:23 <shadwick> got it functioning in a few hours haha, but I need to contact the creator to work out a few uncertanties
04:09:39 <graue> ahaha, i love how it calls exceptions "explosions"
04:10:00 <graue> and deletes all files in the same folder, whaaat
04:10:21 <shadwick> though it kinda makes sense for doing 'chemistry'
04:10:50 <shadwick> so my C already parses input and performs all the right actions
04:11:01 <graue> i just showed my sortle quine to a girl i had over (what got me thinking about the gender imbalance in the esolang community)
04:11:03 <shadwick> well, I just need to fill in the few lines of code for the Reaction Processes
04:11:09 <graue> she's a chemist, i wonder if she would dig this language
04:11:23 <shadwick> I have Project, Fuse, and Cerate working
04:11:35 <shadwick> the framework is pretty much all complete
04:11:40 <MSleep> Put it in, but jsut always remember to store untested programs in subfodler fume_hood.
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04:12:46 <graue> what a funny language
04:12:52 <shadwick> I just need to ask evincar about some of the other reactions, and the pre-defined elements
04:13:33 <shadwick> cause (to be decided) from 4 years ago ain't gonna show up in the Wiki unless I ask
04:13:49 <graue> you could just make it up and edit the wiki
04:14:39 <shadwick> true, but I wanna see if he has an opinion first
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04:25:06 <graue> shadwick: i keep getting you mixed up with shachaf
04:25:25 <graue> tell me some random interesting fact about yourself so i'll remember the difference
04:25:55 <shadwick> hm, I bet shachaf has a comp sci degreee
04:26:02 <shachaf> shadwick is secretly a candle.
04:26:10 <shachaf> Also, I have no comp sci degree.
04:26:29 <shadwick> ah, ok. so that's not a difference haha
04:26:38 <graue> i don't have a CS degree either
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04:27:07 <shachaf> That depends on what you mean by "Canadian".
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04:27:31 <shadwick> ok, let's be more specific; a resident of Canada
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04:27:52 <shachaf> I used to live pretty nearby.
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04:28:22 <shachaf> I used to live there, yes.
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04:28:39 <shachaf> elliott: graue isn't scary!
04:28:44 <shachaf> graue is a like a teddy bear.
04:32:34 <shadwick> he's just trying to lure you in
04:33:25 <Jafet> You are unlikely to be eaten by a graue.
04:33:43 <graue> unless you're an onion
04:34:03 <graue> that would explain it, yes
04:34:57 <elliott> Speaking of being an onion, is "graue", in fact, derived from "grue"?
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04:36:39 <graue> it was a random word that popped into my head, probably 10+ years ago now
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04:36:51 <graue> i since found out that it is a form of the german adjective for "grey"
04:37:06 <graue> but that was not the intent either
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04:50:08 <elliott> 03:54:21: <graue> random question: has anyone ever heard of a female-identified person inventing an esolang or writing a program in one?
04:50:08 <elliott> there have been a few in here over the years, so technically yes; I suspect the obscurity of the community amplifies the unfortunate demographics of computing in general
04:51:20 <Sgeo> What has fax done?
04:52:06 <graue> whether there "have been a few" is what i was wondering; i realized i could not think of any
04:52:57 <elliott> yeah Razor-X/Sukoshi, Madoka-Kaname and fax are the ones I can think of
04:59:50 <zzo38> Are all emerald grue, or are all emeralds actually bleen instead?
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05:00:17 <graue> except for the yelple ones
05:01:10 <elliott> Magenquoise is my favourite colour.
05:01:35 <zzo38> Is that a proper colour?
05:01:49 <shachaf> elliott: Is it a proper colour?
05:04:03 <graue> elliott, do you have a CS degree?
05:04:29 <graue> well that's just shameful
05:04:30 <elliott> zzo38: do you have a CS degree?
05:04:34 <shachaf> It's a combination of C° and the well-known S°
05:04:38 <graue> elliott doesn't have a CS degree [[Category:Shameful]]
05:04:49 <zzo38> elliott: No, I don't have. Sorry
05:04:52 <shachaf> graue: Do you have a CS degree?
05:04:59 <graue> no, but i'll soon have a mathematics degree
05:05:03 <graue> close enough right?
05:05:19 <zzo38> graue: Close enough for what purpose?
05:05:33 <elliott> as if the lowly practicality of mathematics can stand up to the True Art of pure computer science
05:05:47 <graue> oh, whatever, more like vice versa
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05:06:25 <elliott> i think Deewiant might actually have a CS degree! our saviour at last
05:06:40 <zzo38> Some people said it isn't science and doesn't have to do with computers; that is like saying astronomy is about telescopes.
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05:07:38 <elliott> "some people" is dijkstra's most famous alias
05:08:04 <graue> i like how dijkstra has three of the most common loop variables in his name in order
05:08:37 <graue> whenever i see his name i think of nested for-loops
05:08:48 * Sgeo puts graue in a denest
05:08:50 <elliott> i wish i wrote depth-four loops so I could use "s" as the next variable
05:08:58 <elliott> but I don't, four is too much for me
05:09:13 <Sgeo> graue, some CL macro I came across recently
05:10:22 <Sgeo> http://lisp-editor.berlios.de/autodoc/Package_DENEST.html
05:11:26 <graue> too lispy for me to understand at the moment
05:13:05 <zzo38> Some people have describe my "Ibtlfmm" idea as something like combine Haskell with Lisp; it is something like that. But really my idea something like a few stuff from Haskell, Lisp, LLVM, and a few others.
05:14:25 <Sgeo> (denest (dolist (i '(1 2 3))) (dolist (j '(4 5 6))) (format t "~a ~a" i j)) becomes
05:14:36 <elliott> zzo38: didn't you say that yesterday and the day before :p
05:14:54 <zzo38> elliott: What timezone?
05:15:02 <elliott> i'm not sure which one i'm in
05:15:08 <Sgeo> (dolist (i '(1 2 3)) (dolist (j '(4 5 6)) (format t "~a ~a" i j)))
05:15:27 <Sgeo> So with denest, you don't have to have the rest of the body physically contained within the macro dolist
05:15:57 <zzo38> elliott: Use Astrolog or similar software to figure out what timezone you are currently in.
05:16:20 * Sgeo assumes there are easier ways to determine timezones
05:16:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, if you have GPS, you can just look it up in a map after you know your location from GPS.
05:16:57 <graue> you could ask a man on the street, but at this hour he might be drunk
05:17:08 * Sgeo was thinking that it's plausible to know location without knowing timezone
05:17:10 <graue> but then... what's "this hour"? we come back to the question of timezones
05:17:16 <elliott> and i know what timezone the ground is in
05:17:20 <elliott> but i'm not sure what timezone i'm in
05:17:32 <graue> you are in the one that the ground is in
05:17:50 <zzo38> Is your position somehow not synchronized with the ground?
05:18:05 <elliott> graue: that's not true at all!
05:18:12 <elliott> what's jetlag, if not a mismatch between ground timezone and head timezone?
05:18:14 <Sgeo> Is elliott picking at the idea of a human being in a timezone?
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05:18:41 <Sgeo> Suddenly it becomes clear.
05:18:45 <elliott> depends what you mean by picking
05:18:47 <Sgeo> I don't think Astrolog will help
05:18:50 <zzo38> Well, you can use UTC times, or local timezone, or solar time, or sidereal time, or something else.
05:19:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think it will help; but GPS will work better, if you have map of timezones.
05:19:41 <pikhq_> Or he could use the time zone which best maps to his sleep schedule.
05:19:52 <Sgeo> zzo38, astrolog would have to be somewhat psychic.
05:20:15 <pikhq_> Said time zone has a very confusing mapping with UTC.
05:20:34 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes that is another way
05:20:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: You would have to look out the window and figure out what matches it best
05:21:13 <elliott> elliott is the best mathematical constant.
05:21:20 <elliott> it's the only constant that isn't constant, for one
05:21:21 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure things like the sun don't actually correspond to elliott-time.
05:21:31 <Sgeo> elliott, fine structure constant?
05:21:42 <Sgeo> Of unknown constanticity.
05:21:57 <zzo38> O, I understand. And I know how to do it: Use an alarm clock.
05:22:43 <Sgeo> You're going to attempt to obliterate the phenomenon that is elliott-time?
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05:24:08 <pikhq_> elliott: "elliott" is here being used as a shorthand for the result of applying elliott :: Timestamp -> Offset to the current time.
05:24:21 <zzo38> (The person who wrote Astrolog once said he had a dream of a new feature which teleports you to a location which it charts. But it doesn't do that of course.)
05:24:32 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure the function is total.
05:25:25 <elliott> pikhq_: elliott :: Behaviour Offset, man.
05:25:54 <Sgeo> reactive-banana is British?
05:26:33 <pikhq_> Actually, I think it's elliott :: IO Offset
05:27:04 <Sgeo> Are you trying to say that elliott-human is not a value?
05:27:21 <Sgeo> Because if it was, you shouldn't need the IO
05:27:38 <Sgeo> theelliotthuman
05:27:44 <elliott> OK fine, *Behaviour p Offset, now it's Sodium.
05:28:01 <pikhq_> Well, of course elliott-human is not a value, there is no instance of Num for IO Offset.
05:28:26 * Sgeo is a bit Lisp-addled
05:28:32 <Sgeo> err, lispAddled
05:31:11 <graue> i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole!
05:31:38 -!- elliott has set topic: i may not have majored in CS, but at least i'm a major asshole! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:40:58 <coppro> Sgeo: see my most recent post to a-b
05:42:22 <Sgeo> Just humorous, or scam attempt, possibly based on "a", implying weird things if ... hmm
05:43:23 <Sgeo> I should shutup
05:43:29 <Sgeo> How's BlogNomic doing these days?
05:46:40 <elliott> coppro: why's that make you an asshat
05:47:00 <coppro> elliott: because it's worse than a suffusion of yellow
05:47:29 <elliott> the courts basically get to decide what the exception is
05:47:37 <elliott> they can always just decide it's something that will never ever happen
05:47:42 <elliott> like "after five thousand billion years this rule doesn't apply"
05:54:25 <Sgeo> Could the judge use it to seize power?
05:59:19 <Sgeo> Unless there are exceptions in the appeals rules?
06:03:58 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Lindrum.
06:04:08 <Lindrum> (Note: I am not actually Lindrum)
06:05:27 <Lindrum> Wasn't Lindrum heard from relatively recently?
06:08:47 <Lindrum> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/dictator-lindrum wow almost 20 years ago
06:10:01 <elliott> NomicWorld was 20 years ago.
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06:25:12 <Sgeo> Might picolisp be more suited as a nomic than CL, considering that Picolisp functions (except for primitives) are transparent?
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06:35:35 <myndzi> the hilbert curve has the interesting property that if you take it as a sequence, values close to each other in sequence will also be close in the 2d space mapping
06:35:43 <myndzi> any idea if there is a pattern for which the reverse is true?
06:36:53 <elliott> isn't it true for ... the hilbert curve?
06:40:12 <myndzi> i'm thinking no too, but then who knows, it's math
06:40:27 <myndzi> though now that i think about it i realize the points don't have to be connected and i can probably arrange a pattern that meets the criteria i want
06:40:40 <myndzi> elliott: look at, say, the four points in the center of the hilbert curve
06:40:49 <myndzi> they are not sequentially near each other, in fact they are very far
06:40:55 <myndzi> so a -> b but not b -> a
06:41:04 <myndzi> i was hoping for a case of b -> a but i'm thinking probably not
06:42:43 <myndzi> on the other hand, since things needn't be connected, i'm looking for something a bit looser: a sequence of points for which all the points in any 4x4 (?) area fall within ~40 of each other, or thereabouts, and that may just be possible
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07:14:12 * Sgeo must make a Common Lisp alternative to BYOND
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07:30:35 <Sgeo> How hard could it be?
07:55:31 <elliott> @tell oerjan remind me to ask you the question i was going to ask
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08:01:58 <Sgeo> I should slepep
08:02:20 <Sgeo> Oh, monqy tswett update
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09:00:25 <shadwick> I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address)
09:00:34 <shadwick> anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>?
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10:28:37 <oerjan> 09:00:25: <shadwick> I was reading the random page for Optimism, which is an OISC, with the instruction being "ADDOV". Anyone know what that operation do? The page doesn't explicitly say so. It takes 3 operands and I know it'll end up adding the 1st and 2nd, and possibly jumping to the 3rd (an address)
10:28:42 <oerjan> 09:00:34: <shadwick> anyone just know what the condition for the jump is>?
10:29:09 <oerjan> by the name and the "Always goes to the next instruction, even on overflow" comment, i'd guess it jumps when the addition overflows.
10:34:30 <Sgeo> What happens with both source and jump FF?
10:34:35 <Sgeo> I need sleepepepeppppppppp
10:35:57 <fizzie> I'm thinking a literal FF will happen.
10:36:11 <shadwick> oerjan: thanks, dunno how I missed that
10:36:59 <oerjan> a literal fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu, more like
10:41:30 <RocketJSquirrel> "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?"
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10:44:20 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: is that a comment on your ioccc program? :P
10:44:50 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm trying to decide if the reviewers actually read it or not ;)
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10:49:27 <shadwick> well I like how easy Optimism was to write an interpreter for hahaa
10:50:11 <shadwick> I guess I'll create a Wiki account and add it to that page
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13:07:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs code.*inherit
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13:07:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs code.*inherit
13:08:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6146
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14:47:45 <tswett> myndzi: okay, you don't seem to be here any more, but let me try to answer your question anyway.
14:48:21 <tswett> The Hilbert curve has the property that values close to each other in the domain are also close to each other in the range. In other words, the Hilbert curve is continuous.
14:49:11 <tswett> You seem to be asking if there's a map like it, except its inverse is continuous.
14:50:20 <tswett> So, the Hilbert curve is a continuous surjective map [0,1] -> [0,1]^2, and I think essentially we're looking for some sort of continuous map [0,1]^2 -> [0,1].
14:51:36 <tswett> There are tons of continuous *surjective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1]. Among them are f(x,y) = x, f(x,y) = y, f(x,y) = xy, and f(x,y) = (x + y)/2.
14:51:53 <tswett> As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist.
14:56:15 <tswett> It looks like the continuous injective map is what you want. But since there are none, you'll have to make do with some approximation.
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15:49:05 <RocketJSquirrel> "I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github." haha wut
15:49:15 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: I’ve got a mirror of my sccs repository at github. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:16:12 <itidus21> from another channel: http://i.imgur.com/bFB2A.gif
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18:57:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Watch championofbirds.com Wednesday for the GREATEST INTERVIEW EVER.
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19:36:23 <ais523> wow, http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html is really out of date
19:36:41 <ais523> it mentions GPLv3, but most of its comments about other licenses are written from the point of view of a world where GPLv3 doesn't exit
19:36:59 <ais523> e.g. calling 4-clause BSD GPL-incompatible (it is compatible with v3 but not v2)
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20:05:34 <oerjan> <tswett> As for continuous *injective* maps [0,1]^2 -> [0,1], I'm pretty sure none exist.
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20:05:55 <oerjan> by compactness of [0,1]^2, the inverse would automatically be continuous.
20:07:52 <oerjan> and then look at any circle inside it - it must map to an infinite subset of [0,1] which is connected if you remove a point (like the circle itself). but no such subset exists.
20:08:43 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:08:58 <oerjan> we have a myndzi deficit.
20:09:34 -!- elliott has joined.
20:09:38 <oerjan> (btw a similar theorem is true for any [0,1]^m to [0,1]^n with m > n, but that is much deeper.)
20:09:42 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's not SCCS.
20:09:51 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's SCCS as a generic term for any source control system.
20:09:52 <oerjan> (Invariance of Domain)
20:10:44 -!- nortti has joined.
20:10:51 <elliott> (No, I didn't have to logread to know where that was from.)
20:11:19 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: But nobody uses "SCCS" as a generic term anymore ... they use RCS or VCS.
20:11:43 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Nobody uses libc4 any more, either. Unless I'm mistaken about the source, you shouldn't be surprised.
20:12:33 <elliott> (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.)
20:13:36 <elliott> 10:41:30: <RocketJSquirrel> "The author claims that his calculator does just-in-time compilation. What would you do to prove or disprove his claim without attempting to unravel the source?"
20:13:45 <olsner> who are you/we talking about?
20:13:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Congrats, you successfully befuddled the IOCCC organisers
20:14:08 <fizzie> Taneb: I HOEP I'M NOT TOO LATE:
20:14:09 <fizzie> | | | `\o/ | | | `\o/ | | |
20:14:09 <fizzie> /| |\ >\ | /| /| /< | /< /< /^\
20:14:39 * oerjan is suddenly reminded of a certain scene in the akira manga
20:14:54 <elliott> olsner: I'm talking about the author of http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/discount/
20:15:08 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> (He actually uses some static libc4/a.out systems by choice... which requires him to *maintain libc4*.) // holy crap indeed O_O
20:15:09 <elliott> Which contains the topic sentence
20:15:14 <elliott> oerjan: You forgot to remind me.
20:15:28 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/libc/
20:15:42 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: However, that just makes me think that it's even more likely that he uses SCCS ;)
20:15:44 <oerjan> elliott: ah. well you weren't around when i read the message.
20:15:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: He's the maximally curmudgeonly Linux user!
20:17:28 <fizzie> elliott: I like the "gl*bc" spelling. It's good to hide dirty words.
20:19:00 <olsner> hurr durr, my router is broken again... it's almost refusing to connect to anything
20:20:50 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: congratulations again :P
20:23:18 <Taneb> I know not enough C to enter the IOCCC
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20:31:45 <elliott> (I can give you the practical purpose I want this for if it's too abstract :P)
20:31:55 <oerjan> elliott: that's zzo38's barrier monad, isn't it.
20:31:58 <elliott> oerjan: oh, and F a = Cofree ((->) a)
20:32:02 <elliott> so it's definitely a comonad
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20:32:10 <elliott> hey, you say every monad is the barrier monad!
20:32:10 <itidus21> random thought occured to me.. could a non-human sentient being learn to use a turing complete language?
20:32:20 <elliott> i'm pretty sure his barrier thing had multiple constructors.
20:32:32 <Taneb> itidus21, probably
20:32:38 <itidus21> and if it could... would we become evil bastards and enslave the animals
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20:33:04 <Taneb> Considering it's cheaper to use actual computers
20:33:04 <itidus21> its bad enough that we trap pigs in cages their whole lives just to get nicer food than soy
20:33:20 <Taneb> And you don't need to muck out computers very often.
20:33:25 <itidus21> training animals to program as slave programmers would be just worse
20:33:46 <RocketJSquirrel> My bots may sometimes crash for literally no god damn reason ...
20:33:58 <elliott> I suspect a bug in the framework they all use.
20:34:04 <elliott> To do with line length or something.
20:34:12 <oerjan> elliott: well ok, a simplified barrier monad then
20:34:46 <tswett> What's the barrier monad?
20:35:24 <elliott> oerjan: THE BARRIER MONAD IS THE MOST COMPLEX MEANINGLESS JUMBLE IN EXISTENCE EVERYTHING IS A SIMPLIFIED BARRIER MONAD :P
20:35:25 <oerjan> `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier
20:35:55 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9662806/is-there-any-haskell-land-equivalent-to-the-ruby-lands-bundler-et-al-and-if-n I like the part where this is a whiny blog post disguised as a question.
20:36:04 <oerjan> `log [z]zo38>.*data Barrier
20:36:17 <HackEgo> 2011-09-23.txt:20:12:26: <zzo38> OK. Barrier monads: data Barrier f b t = Unit t | Barrier f (b -> Barrier f b t) | Fail String; ("Fail String" is optional)
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20:36:41 <oerjan> oh he had an extra argument
20:37:15 <elliott> Yeah, that's totally different.
20:37:17 <shadwick> elliott: what a hipster programmer
20:37:44 <oerjan> RocketJSquirrel: while you're investigating, fix HackEgo's tendence to time out on commands after long delays ;P
20:38:33 <oerjan> (delays after previous command, that is, not while waiting.)
20:39:14 <elliott> anaCofree :: Functor h => (a -> b) -> (a -> h a) -> a -> Cofree h b
20:39:14 <elliott> anaCofree g1 g2 = g1 &&& fmap (anaCofree g1 g2) . g2 >>> Cofree
20:39:16 <HackEgo> 2011-04-15.txt:01:56:50: <coppro> elliott: you vehemently denied this
20:39:44 <elliott> id &&& fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) . tailCofree >>> Cofree
20:40:53 <ais523> elliott: insane opinion: all websites should be dark-text-on-light-background, so that when I prefer the reverse, I can just reverse-video the entire browser rather than changing for individual pages
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20:42:58 <itidus21> i have a new theory on backups i call RAID 7 .. the basic idea is that you create a textfile list of all the filenames and directories on your disk, and store it online somewhere
20:43:15 <ais523> why backup just the names?
20:43:30 <itidus21> because to be honest thats all you really care about
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20:43:50 <ais523> err, typically the file contents are more important than the file names
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20:43:59 <ais523> if the file isn't redownloadable
20:44:08 <itidus21> well... one must take into account that the internet is actually getting faster
20:44:26 <ais523> itidus21: there are quite a few files I have that aren't stored online anywhere
20:44:29 <ais523> that's what backups are /for/
20:46:33 <elliott> ais523: why are you arguing with the debate equivalent of fungot
20:46:34 <fungot> elliott: have any of you guys!
20:47:16 <Taneb> We should really write a bot to replace itidus
20:47:20 <ais523> elliott: because I don't pay enough attention to figure out personalities of people unless I've talked to them really lots
20:47:24 <Taneb> Then replace itidus with it
20:47:38 <Taneb> So that itidus can be boosted up the ranks
20:48:05 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x = Cofree (id x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x))
20:48:14 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) (tailCofree x))
20:48:28 <elliott> anaCofree <id> <tailCofree> x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap (anaCofree id tailCofree) t)
20:48:35 <itidus21> the fundamental reason for the previous few posts with my id in them is that i am not actually here for the same reason as the others
20:48:42 <elliott> foo x@(Cofree (_,t)) = Cofree (x, fmap foo t)
20:49:40 <itidus21> well i sort of am, but i arrived here with really no understanding of compilers.. i didn't even realize there was any math behind it
20:49:41 <oerjan> anaCoffee, the categorically best coffee
20:50:44 <itidus21> i thought that the most difficult part would be deciding on reserved keywords and optimal assembly code equivalents of syntactical structures
20:51:07 <itidus21> that is quite literally what i thought
20:52:19 <itidus21> with 10% room for misrepresentation of myself
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20:59:19 <elliott> oerjan: btw I'm using this type to represent things of the form (f . foldl' g z)
20:59:32 <elliott> because you can zip these so they run in tandem on a single list
20:59:36 <elliott> so (/) <$> sumF <*> lengthF DTRT
20:59:54 <elliott> I got to it by starting with this type (not discovered by me, other people have talked about it)
21:00:08 <elliott> data Fold a b = forall s. Fold s (s -> a -> s) (s -> b)
21:00:20 <elliott> and factoring out the existential; all we can do is plug in an a to get a new one, or convert it to a b, so
21:00:26 <elliott> data Fold a b = Fold (a -> Fold a b) b
21:02:06 <elliott> oerjan: the problem with the Monad instance is that it destroys this by keeping around the original list, making it no better than just doing it the usual way :(
21:02:19 <elliott> which I think is inherent, because you could decide what fold you're going to zip it with based on the final result of a previous one
21:02:37 <elliott> which means folding the two in tandem and discarding the conses as you go is impossible
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21:18:30 <oerjan> elliott: why doesn't ! align="left" | work in my wiki table :(
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21:25:51 <oerjan> i'm still in preview stage
21:26:57 <elliott> oerjan: put the relevant table on the sandbox?
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21:28:53 <oerjan> actually i did something earlier today and discarded the attempt, which i'm now trying to redo.
21:31:19 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
21:31:41 <elliott> it occurs to me that a Fold that only works on non-empty lists would be useful.
21:31:45 <elliott> so that you could define things like first
21:32:00 <elliott> data Fold a b = Fold (a -> (b, Fold a b)) -- hey, it's the automaton arrow.
21:32:26 <oerjan> elliott: ok i saved it as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qdeql#Example_structure , everything except the alignment of most of the dark cells now looks as i want it.
21:32:57 <elliott> hm why does \\/\/\\/\// have a funny background
21:33:12 <elliott> i feel you are sorely misusing th elements somewhat
21:33:34 <elliott> although i'm not sure what it's meant to look like, so
21:34:10 <oerjan> elliott: i want to mark the cells that have non-default values. i tried bold but - and = don't get distinguished enough with it
21:34:33 <oerjan> also i _still_ would like the left column title cells to be left aligned, i think.
21:34:41 <elliott> ok, I'll fix the left column
21:34:48 <elliott> what if I defined a class that just did the background without the bolding or centring?
21:35:04 <oerjan> the bolding is nice though.
21:35:26 <elliott> i don't like the idea of non-heading cells that look identical to headings :(
21:35:32 <oerjan> well i guess not bolding will distinguish it from that
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21:36:40 <elliott> oerjan: ! style="text-align: left" | works
21:36:47 <elliott> oerjan: though I feel you want right alignment
21:36:55 <elliott> considering how wide it is
21:37:25 <oerjan> oh. i didn't want it to get confused with the actual data inside
21:37:48 <elliott> there's an awful lot of whitespace with left-alignment (I only left-aligned two rows to test because I'm lazy)
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21:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how you can tell if elliott's in the channel by the ratio of message lines to join/quit lines.
21:38:23 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:38:54 <oerjan> hm i suppose centering the left column isn't _that_ bad.
21:39:15 <elliott> change <]> and beginning of .
21:39:20 <elliott> <]><br><small>and beginning of .</small>
21:40:29 <oerjan> but that makes the size there different from all the other rows
21:41:12 <elliott> well it's just that "<]> and beginning of ." is stretching that column really wide
21:41:29 <elliott> JSON.org License Literally Says it "shall be used for Good, not Evil" (java.dzone.com)
21:41:37 <elliott> Reddit Literally Discovers "the same things, Over and Over Again"
21:43:13 <elliott> i think we need Tufte to redesign your tables.
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21:50:26 <oerjan> argh i put the style in the wrong place now
21:51:31 <elliott> generate the wikicode with a perl script
21:51:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: [[The license includes this restriction: "The software shall be used for good, not evil." If your conscience cannot live with that, then choose a different package.]]
21:52:08 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally.
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21:52:47 <oerjan> elliott: it's just doing it once, then repeating n and . in vim
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21:53:00 <oerjan> but i put it in the code tag instead of at the !
21:54:45 <oerjan> now everyone can understand the qdeql translation!
21:54:53 * oerjan cackles more madly than usual
21:55:47 <oerjan> hm i think there's a cell that should be grey
21:57:13 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: GOD OK you're a javascripter, you must come across Crockford IRL occasionally. // I haven't, in fact. But yes, he's a dummy.
21:57:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, find him.
21:58:14 <oerjan> istr someone noticing that terms like that are enough to make it incompatible with gpl
21:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: That makes it incompatible with everything.
21:58:34 <oerjan> in other words, gpl mandates that evil must be allowed.
21:58:48 <elliott> It amounts to "you can't do anything with this, I might sue you".
21:59:05 <elliott> oerjan: Well that's obvious, see DFSG#6 "No discrimination against fields of endeavor, like commercial use."
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22:06:26 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott, oerjan: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/announce/Flower_opened_8869.html
22:07:58 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'VE READ THAT A KAJILLION TIMES
22:08:30 <elliott> At least they were precise
22:08:52 <elliott> oerjan: hey italicising the 7 in 7n is a sin
22:09:30 <oerjan> on the positive side, i now know someone is reading my edits.
22:10:09 <elliott> i review all the edits on the wiki. it is my duty
22:10:35 <oerjan> me too, although it isn't.
22:11:20 <elliott> oerjan: hm is "Can you understand now?" a zzoism
22:11:50 <oerjan> elliott: you got it :)
22:13:40 <oerjan> i just had this eerie feeling of being just as incomprehensible.
22:14:55 <elliott> i usually get a vague gist of what zzo38 is saying.
22:15:01 <elliott> however i have no idea how the translation of bf to qdeql works.
22:15:44 <elliott> oerjan: i feel compelled to point out i also have no idea how the underload minimisation works. or /// being TC.
22:16:41 <oerjan> i think the qdeql translation is a little simpler, well maybe except for the factory.
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22:18:19 <oerjan> did you read my discussion with graue?
22:18:39 <oerjan> it was a couple days ago
22:19:11 <elliott> oerjan: well do you mean the discussion when i was there?
22:19:19 <oerjan> i don't recall if you were
22:20:33 <oerjan> well anyway i explained to graue how it started with the epiphany that \\/\// would skip an arbitrary number of 255 0 0 copies, and that the factory grew out of how to replace the zero lost at the end of that loop.
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22:35:41 <elliott> leap second comin' our day
22:36:01 <oerjan> not for some months, surely?
22:37:22 <itidus21> someones playing mario music on a piano. why should you care? i'm not entirely sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eKxxYlHbJs
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23:37:47 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I assume you are a secondary expert, so tell me, web o' flies could presumably be used to add save states to a game (just replay up to a given point to "load"), no?
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