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00:40:45 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: That is half the point, isn't it?
00:43:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: well it's for TASes sure but why would you do that
00:49:37 <RocketJSquirrel> pikhq_: I thought the whole point was for TAS, so rewind. I'm just validating that that ability also gives it save-states.
00:50:18 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, it's slow, you know.
00:50:38 <RocketJSquirrel> I didn't have anything in mind, it was a general question.
00:51:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But come on, it rips out the scheduler.
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01:51:04 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9677012/suppress-runtime-error-irrefutable-pattern-failed-for-pattern-data-maybe-just-b
02:00:37 <Sgeo> elliott, tswett monqy update! (If you didn't see it already, it was about an hour or so ago
02:03:23 * tswett finishes having seen it.
02:04:00 <Sgeo> That means you saw it, but then stopped having seen it, so now you haven't seen it?
02:04:45 * Sgeo now understands why Racket's keyword arguments are the way they are
02:16:27 <Sgeo> Apparently, in #lisp , it's not worth doing interesting things, just useful things.
02:17:28 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm misrepresenting what was said :/
02:17:51 <Sgeo> I think I did, after I suggested what I was doing could be potentially useful
02:18:20 <Sgeo> So I kind of did
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02:33:14 <Sgeo> 'You're welcome; please learn how to spell "thank you".'
02:34:33 <Sgeo> (after I said ty
02:35:09 <elliott> Sgeo i fear you're under the impression we will die if we don't hear every detail of your continuing #lisp experience
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02:38:42 <monqy> i need sgeo's #lisp experience to survive
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03:22:48 <elly> hi :) kmc told me I should join here - I have a FALSE compiler targeting x86-64 asm: http://www.leptoquark.net/~elly/false.c
03:24:49 <elly> the code is not very pretty :P
03:26:23 <HackEgo> elly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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04:19:29 <HackEgo> ckennelly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:21:20 <Sgeo> elliott, NOCAPS?
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04:51:28 <elliott> http://www.vanityfair.com/ontheweb/features/2007/02/autumn200702 "I see people in black hoods and robes sitting round a table, bound by blood oath never to divulge the latitude and longitude of Autumn."
05:02:48 <zzo38> Isn't the autumn, the season?
05:03:25 <elliott> The ending of that article cheated me. :(
05:04:27 <zzo38> I can tell you the latitude and longitude of the autumn equinox.
05:07:39 <zzo38> Its declination is zero, and its Greenwich hour angle changes all the time.
05:08:06 * Sgeo is no longer an admin at the Nethack Wiki
05:08:07 <zzo38> Its ecliptic latitude is also zero, and its ecliptic longitude is 180 degrees (= 0 Libra).
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05:08:43 <zzo38> I think its right ascension would also be 180 degrees (= 12 hours).
05:09:38 <Sgeo> Since 2005 or so. It did carry over to the new site, if that's what you're asking.
05:09:54 <zzo38> Now we know the latitude and longitude of the autumn equinox.
05:09:58 <Sgeo> And apparently, if I want it back, I can just ask, and will get it, no questions asked.
05:10:20 <elliott> Oh, wait, you founded it, right.
05:10:23 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sgeo What an impressive record.
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05:14:56 <HackEgo> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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05:15:12 <elliott> shachaf: btw you might want to get that implementation you wrote onto the file archive
05:15:43 <zzo38> (I mean autumn equinox in north hemisphere; in south hemisphere the coordinates I give are for spring equinox)
05:15:48 <Sgeo> monqy, I used to be Sgep on Freenode because I forgot the password for Sgeo.
05:16:29 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on shadwick (account shadwick):
05:16:31 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Registered : Apr 29 23:37:31 2009 (2 years, 45 weeks, 3 days, 05:38:45 ago)
05:16:34 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on Shachaf (account Shachaf):
05:16:35 <monqy> shachaf: stop being
05:16:37 <shachaf> 22:16 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Registered : Jul 03 22:30:48 2004 (7 years, 36 weeks, 2 days, 06:45:31 ago)
05:16:48 <elliott> 2004. You were like 3 then, right?
05:17:21 <shachaf> I moved to the US in -- 2002?
05:17:38 <elliott> Are you sure you're younger than 21?
05:17:51 <shadwick> elliott: oh ok. I've gotta fix it up a bit anyways
05:17:59 <shadwick> elliott: you're talking about the Optimism thing right?
05:18:00 <Sgeo> Fighting... snob... instinct.
05:18:09 <shachaf> elliott: Unless I've been lied to about my age. :-(
05:18:26 <monqy> shadwick: he's talking about tab-completion. you and shachaf share the first three letters in your names
05:19:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Saying that was just as bad as not fighting it, so you might as well just go ahead.
05:19:12 <monqy> or at least if I was elliott I'd be talking about tab-completion because wow sharing three letters is a lot
05:19:36 <shadwick> elliott: I'm working on a compiler/interpreter for another language right now. I'll fix up the last bit of the Optimism code before I ask about the archive thingy
05:20:05 <shachaf> elly: I'm pretty sure you've been around for longer than elliott.
05:20:21 <monqy> what happened to ehird, man
05:21:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm referring to a less than stellar writer on the old NH wiki
05:22:21 <shachaf> elliott: BUT IO IS PURE LOGIC SAYS SO
05:24:53 <shachaf> elliott: I've come to a realization.
05:25:00 <shachaf> Every thing is either the devil or the future.
05:25:11 <pikhq> And the devilfuture?
05:25:22 <shachaf> The devilfuture is the devil.
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05:42:44 <shadwick> I got in touch with evincar about Alchemy
05:43:00 <shadwick> he said he was never expecting an email about it haha
05:46:18 <shadwick> just a random lang I found in the unimplemented category yesterday
05:46:31 <shadwick> I wanted to make an interpreter for it so I contacted him to ask a few dtails
05:47:02 <shadwick> it's coming along well so far; got the source->bytecode compiler working and program state and execution functionality down
05:48:16 <zzo38> What programming language are you using to write compilers/interpreters?
05:48:59 <shadwick> far as I know, it will pass valgrind with flying colours
05:50:28 <zzo38> I have used different programming languages to implement different esolangs, sometimes multiple implementations in different programming languages, some of them possibly other esolangs too.
05:50:33 <monqy> the more @ you add, the perfecter it gets
06:00:00 <zzo38> (I have implemented FlogScript in PHP, BytePusher in CWEB, Constantinople in Haskell, Deadfish in dc and Forth and TeX and TeXnicard, Underload in TeX and FlogScript, and Unlambda in PHP.
06:01:03 <zzo38> (I have also invented and implemented FurryScript, which may be called a quasi-esolang by some.)
06:01:10 <zzo38> O, and I have implemented Pure BF in Haskell, too.
06:01:45 <zzo38> myndzi: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript Tell me if you misunderstand anything about it.
06:02:23 <myndzi> ha, i was envisaging something more like a cross between 'yiff' and lolcode
06:02:29 <myndzi> but .. i couldn't think of anything except 'yiff'
06:04:13 <zzo38> myndzi: Well, someone once thought it was something like that and responded to my message about FurryScript with a code that looked like a somewhat badly written JavaScript code involving 'yiff' and a few other things. But actually, FurryScript is not JavaScript nor is it 'yiff'.
06:05:40 <myndzi> it would be more interesting if it was though
06:06:01 <myndzi> little(?) known fact is that 'yiff' comes from a whole language of dog sounds haha
06:06:19 <myndzi> by 'whole language' i'm talking like a dozen words of course
06:06:32 <myndzi> but yiff is the only one anyone knows
06:13:25 <zzo38> Of course you can write programs in FurryScript involving that stuff or any other stuff if you want, but they are not part of the programming language. Do you think this is good and understandable document to you?
06:13:49 <myndzi> i don't know, i was only curious if it was any relation :P
06:19:21 <myndzi> it is a good and understandable document :)
06:19:58 <zzo38> Can you write any programs using it? So far I am the only one who has written anything with it (although data comes from various sources and is not entirely my own).
06:21:17 <myndzi> the document would certainly benefit from some code examples both to demonstrate syntax and purpose :P
06:21:22 <myndzi> define writing a program
06:22:32 <myndzi> there are also some vagaries that could be explained better
06:23:56 <elliott> monqy: tell me to go to bed in the next few minutes, thanks
06:24:20 <zzo38> myndzi: OK then do tell me what needs to be explain better
06:24:26 <zzo38> I would like to fix it
06:25:06 <myndzi> explain what you mean by 'continuation', what purpose a parameter serves (and where it goes when you take it from the stack), and your syntax with the parenthesis ( foo -- bar )
06:25:26 <elliott> myndzi: I would assume the standard meaning of continuation unless stated otherwise
06:25:33 <elliott> ( foo -- bar ) is presumably the standard Forth stack notation
06:25:43 <myndzi> elliott: yeah, but i'm a noob
06:26:02 <monqy> elliott: do you have a timer
06:26:07 <myndzi> now if you are defining something for a person to read, you don't want to draw references in from a bunch of other languages ;)
06:26:25 <myndzi> also uncertain if one command per line or what
06:26:33 <elliott> well continuations are a pretty common concept :P
06:26:42 <elliott> the stack notation is unintuitive to a newcomer to stack languages though yeah
06:26:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation may enlighten you or confuse you tenfold
06:26:55 <myndzi> i'm just taking it for what it is
06:27:15 <zzo38> myndzi: The ( foo -- bar ) is the Forth-like stack notation; elliott is correct about that. (It is sometimes used in other programming language with stack too.) But the continuations are not exactly like other programming language continuations though; there are a few differences. I don't know the best way to describe but source-codes is available.
06:27:33 <myndzi> but i guess this is foot-in-mouth moment, i didn't even recognize these as standard notations :P
06:27:42 <myndzi> truth is i'm not even in the right channel ;D
06:27:48 <zzo38> Examples might also help. Here are codes for examples: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/
06:28:13 <elliott> well continuations are mostly something you might stumble upon in functional programming circles liek scheme and haskell, although POSIX used to have them (technically)
06:28:24 <elliott> an interwiki link to wikipedia for the term is probably appropriate
06:28:40 <elliott> myndzi: the ( foo -- bar ) thing is just ( stack before -- stack afterwards )
06:28:51 <elliott> swap would be ( a b -- b a )
06:29:38 <myndzi> that's kinda what i gathered from context
06:30:03 <myndzi> just wasn't sure "where" the components were
06:30:13 <elliott> top of the stack comes last
06:30:26 <myndzi> i mean "on the stack" or "somewhere else"
06:30:32 <myndzi> i'm not so savvy as that
06:31:01 <myndzi> really i just came here because of bf joust a long time ago and stay because interesting stuff at times
06:32:30 <zzo38> The result of a subroutine can be one of three things: OK, bad, or very bad.
06:33:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is why the command for very bad is called HOR.
06:33:32 <elliott> myndzi: er you were here way before bf joust i think
06:33:53 <myndzi> though, bf joust has had a couple recurrences
06:34:05 <myndzi> it was impomatic in #corewars talkin about it that got me to come play
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06:34:49 <myndzi> i bet \o/ talks more than i do :)
06:35:17 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:18 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:35:18 <myndzi> /´\ /< /< | /< |\ |\ | >\ /< /'\
06:35:21 <elliott> myndzi: oh speaking of which i had a bug report
06:35:26 <elliott> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:26 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:35:34 <elliott> and copy the colours for each column
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06:35:51 <myndzi> i might have a script that applies here
06:36:01 <myndzi> do /me something myndzi but put color codes all up in my nick
06:36:39 <elliott> or do the colour codes do something special
06:36:53 <myndzi> it will scale the codes to match
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06:37:26 <myndzi> i'm not sure that script applies here though
06:38:00 <myndzi> nicks different lengths man, what do you want ;p
06:38:13 <myndzi> also that looks cool on my theme
06:38:30 <elliott> monqy: in 5 minutes!!!!!!!!!
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06:39:24 <myndzi> huh, i wonder if this will work
06:39:33 <myndzi> ^rainbow \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:39:33 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
06:39:33 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:39:33 <myndzi> >\ |\ /| | >\ /| |\ | |\ /´\ /|
06:39:34 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
06:39:34 <myndzi> >\ /| /´\ | /´\ >\ /| | /| /^\ /´\
06:40:08 <myndzi> i wonder why it didn't trigger on yours
06:40:38 <myndzi> i'll have to do the colors sometime when i'm not four beers in, it probably requires a complete rewrite of things
06:40:46 <myndzi> bolds complicate matters too, but hopefully i don't have to support that :)
06:41:25 <elliott> myndzi: can i make it more complicated
06:41:30 <elliott> just copying the colours for each column is wrong
06:41:40 <myndzi> you want it to follow the lines
06:41:43 <elliott> if a head is one colour, that entire person (and only that person) should be that colour
06:41:54 <myndzi> that actually makes it easier
06:41:57 <elliott> if it's multiple colours, it should use the same stretching you use for nicks to fill the whole body on every line ;)
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06:42:11 <elliott> that makes it easier? i don't want to see your code then
06:42:21 <myndzi> well when you said "body same color as head"
06:42:25 <myndzi> that = one color for everything
06:42:34 <myndzi> but all the little dudes \o/
06:42:40 <myndzi> fall into three columns by your description anyway
06:42:48 <elliott> (_| |_) ain't three columns
06:42:49 <myndzi> so the stretching would be the same as per-column
06:43:13 <myndzi> even that guy is about the same
06:43:28 <myndzi> so stretching that to two wouldn't be much of a ... stretch
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06:44:22 <monqy> elliott: has it been 5 minutes
06:44:35 <elliott> myndzi: i thought it'd be harder to do it per-guy because they can overlap in columns
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06:44:38 <zzo38> Another thing which only I have written files for so far is the Internet Quiz Engine. (And unlike FurryScript, Internet Quiz Engine supports user uploads.)
06:44:55 <HackEgo> rvchangue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
06:44:55 <elliott> myndzi: meh, blame my proportional font then
06:45:03 <myndzi> it won't render the rocker dude if he's within one character of other stuff
06:45:14 <myndzi> ah, why would you even care with a proportional font lol ;)
06:46:28 <myndzi> you don't want to see the code anyway though
06:46:37 <myndzi> it looks like any code that starts simple and expands to do more than it should
06:46:50 <zzo38> I use a fixed font on my IRC but that doesn't mean these things will be lined up
06:46:52 <elliott> you need an extensible dude-drawing framework
06:47:11 <myndzi> zzo38: too many variances in clients, yeah
06:47:31 <myndzi> but any client that left-aligns nicks should do, excepting ones that don't pad for non-status-symbols when there's a difference
06:47:49 <myndzi> i actually made it output proper spaces once but i actually got more complaints than otherwise
06:48:25 <myndzi> man, i neglected an ebay auction earlier
06:48:35 <myndzi> 120 watt solar panel, probably would have gone for < $1/watt
06:48:51 <myndzi> i laid eyes on it at 8 mins to go and then got distracted
06:49:13 <elliott> myndzi: ps - revive bf joust, thx
06:49:16 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=04282006
06:49:28 <myndzi> i'm impressed that slowrush is still hanging out in decent shape
06:49:34 <zzo38> myndzi: For example, on my client, your messages are thirteen spaces to the right of elliott's messages. And many other client do in other ways; it also depend fixed/proportinal, table format, and other things too. So you cannot really get it to work (possibly even in some cases, messages from the same sender might not be lined up!)
06:49:40 <myndzi> it's hard to top the effort ais put in
06:49:47 <myndzi> with what limited motivation i have :)
06:50:32 <myndzi> the ones he did most recently are like the ones i wanted to do but didn't want to spend the effort on, but also better most likely
06:50:48 <myndzi> now it's less about discovery than it is about refinement
06:50:53 <myndzi> which is the same r eason i can't get myself into corewars
06:51:56 <zzo38> (Also, my IRC uses its own colors instead of using the colors specified in the message.)
06:52:10 <kmc> of course it does
06:52:28 <elliott> myndzi: i think it's still about discovery as, iirc, ais' latest strategy still has no known counter
06:52:48 <myndzi> zzo38: it's more like, there's no way i can cater to everything so i went for the majority
06:53:14 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes, you cannot cater to everything.
06:53:22 <monqy> is it even possible to cater to zzo's client
06:54:07 <elliott> myndzi: zzo38's client shows the lines as raw IRC lines with syntax highlighting
06:54:10 <myndzi> elliott: dunno, i just refreshed my memory and it's more like "everything useful thus far"
06:54:12 <elliott> better account for user+hostname
06:54:28 <myndzi> i've irced with telnet many a time and i can't imagine why anyone would want to do that
06:54:38 <zzo38> monqy: It probably is, but is not such a good idea since any client does them differently from another one.
06:54:38 <myndzi> i mean slowpoke.bfjoust
06:54:52 <elliott> fuuuuck good{night,morning}
06:54:57 <myndzi> it's integrated the strategies or counters to everything up to it basically
06:55:02 <myndzi> and that shows in the ratings too
06:55:04 <zzo38> myndzi: I have once done that too; but then I found it wasn't very good so I wrote an IRC client instead.
06:55:48 <myndzi> it loses to a couple, which means that you could target it, but that does you no good if the specific killers don't survive on their own against a lot of other things
06:56:31 <myndzi> i'm not being defeatist, i just don't have any ideas :)
06:56:42 <myndzi> not that don't involve "doing something very similar but better"
06:56:54 <myndzi> it was the "doing something new" that caught my interest
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07:02:12 <zzo38> On Sunday, I have played D&D game.
07:02:26 <zzo38> But experience points for that session have not yet been counted.
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07:03:59 <myndzi> or just up til 3am and wanted sleep ;)
07:04:35 <zzo38> The reason is that the DM lacked time to do so.
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07:08:46 <zzo38> One of the players is new and played only one session before this one; her character is a human fighter, using a staff and crossbow, with high Wisdom, and has a winter blanket, candle, bread, cheese, meat, and ale.
07:09:09 <myndzi> this seems very random
07:09:09 <zzo38> My character is very different from that and has very different equipment.
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07:10:23 <myndzi> i never really got into a decent d&d game :\
07:10:35 <myndzi> had the opportunity and not the knowledge and also the reverse
07:10:43 <zzo38> There is also one player who has quit.
07:11:49 <kmc> did they quit due to an ale shortage
07:12:10 <myndzi> AM I GETTING DRUNK YET
07:12:15 <zzo38> kmc: No; I think he just wanted to do other things.
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07:22:29 <zzo38> You can read about the game and about the characters since I put all of it onto the computer.
07:24:42 <zzo38> Her character has tried to offer some food to my character for healing, but she learn better in future
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07:27:38 <zzo38> Among other things, it wouldn't heal hit point damage.
07:28:40 <myndzi> pfft you're not playing Final Fantasy? :P
07:28:54 <zzo38> Correct; I am not playing Final Fantasy.
07:31:14 <myndzi> everything's better with chocobos!
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07:55:45 <Jafet> Then you should play Chocobo Dungeon
07:56:01 <Jafet> It makes as much sense as it sounds, but it has chocobos
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08:41:50 <Sgeo> " Shen uses a C++ convention for comments."
08:41:58 <Sgeo> "\* Here is a comment *\"
08:42:08 <Sgeo> C++ inspired, I guess.
08:45:39 <kmc> it's important to invent new comment syntax for your language
08:45:48 <kmc> it makes polyglot programs easier to write
08:48:35 <Sgeo> Idea: Polygots that don't use comments.
08:53:53 <olsner> "For the next release I’m trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28."
08:54:50 <olsner> http://www.mastodon.biz/ same guy that has the SCCS mirror on github
08:55:13 <shachaf> 2.4.20 was the kernel, man.
08:55:20 <shachaf> That's the kernel that it's all about.
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09:12:34 * oerjan sees a nick matchin ell.* and thinks "this will end well."
09:13:07 <shachaf> Surely you mean "this will start ell"?
09:13:51 <shachaf> Should I get a domain name in Afghanistan?
09:17:55 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://p.zem.fi/d0as -- C/Befunge polyglot without comments. (Okay, so X/Befunge is far too easy.)
09:18:26 <oerjan> we are still waiting for Malbolge/Befunge.
09:18:59 <shachaf> Does whitespace count as comments when there's information encoded in it?
09:19:26 <Sgeo> Do non-whitespace characters in Whitespace count as comments?
09:19:27 <shachaf> What about strings? Do those count as comments? Python practically uses them as such.
09:20:15 <oerjan> python has strings attached
09:20:21 <Sgeo> fizzie, cute/cool
09:22:26 <oerjan> 05:48:36: <shachaf> Norwegian.
09:22:26 <oerjan> 05:48:59: <shadwick> far as I know, it will pass valgrind with flying colours
09:22:44 <oerjan> those weren't the same person.
09:23:05 <oerjan> I AM STARTING TO AGREE WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE ON THESE NICK MATTERS
09:23:28 <shachaf> WHAT ABOUT UNCERTAIN PEOPLE
09:23:29 <fizzie> It's true what you say, nick matters.
09:23:57 <oerjan> you cannot agree with uncertain people, you never know where you might end up.
09:24:22 <shachaf> You might end up uncertain.
09:24:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Hey, you're Norwegian.
09:24:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you pass Valgrind?
09:25:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Have you ever been to Bø?
09:25:18 <oerjan> fizzie: presumably, only if i die in battle.
09:25:23 <shachaf> Trick question: All cities in Norway are called Bø.
09:25:51 <fizzie> What a bo-ing place it must be.
09:26:21 <oerjan> shachaf: Bø in Vesterålen?
09:26:43 <shachaf> Which is the name of a big airplane thing company.
09:27:38 <oerjan> oh. then probably not. probably not the other one either.
09:29:16 <oerjan> the latter is a bit unsure, since i've been to some nearby places
09:29:26 <oerjan> i certainly don't _recall_ visiting either.
09:29:46 <oerjan> s/latter/Vesterålen one/
09:35:46 <oerjan> 06:06:01: <myndzi> little(?) known fact is that 'yiff' comes from a whole language of dog sounds haha
09:35:50 <oerjan> 06:06:19: <myndzi> by 'whole language' i'm talking like a dozen words of course
09:35:57 <oerjan> hey that's more than enough for turing-completeness!
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11:31:27 <HackEgo> sunz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
11:35:52 <fizzie> `run (welcome && welcome && welcome) | @ oerjan cat -
11:35:56 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page \ Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page \ Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design
11:37:02 <ion> `run welcome fizzie | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
11:37:05 <HackEgo> ｆｉｚｚｉｅ： Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ ｅｓｏｔｅｒｉｃ ｐｒｏｇｒａｍｍｉｎｇ ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ ｄｅｓｉｇｎ ａｎｄ ｄｅｐｌｏｙｍｅｎｔ！ Ｆｏｒ ｍｏｒｅ ｉｎｆｏｒｍａｔｉｏｎ， ｃｈｅｃｋ ｏｕｔ ｏｕｒ ｗｉｋｉ： ｈｔｔｐ：／／ｅｓｏｌａｎｇｓ
11:37:19 <fizzie> That's the widest welcome.
11:41:21 <fizzie> `run welcome ion | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/a-zA-Z/𝖆-𝖟𝕬-𝖅/'
11:41:24 <HackEgo> 𝖎𝖔𝖓: 𝖂𝖊𝖑𝖈𝖔𝖒𝖊 𝖙𝖔 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖎𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖓𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑 𝖍𝖚𝖇 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖊𝖘𝖔𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖎𝖈 𝖕𝖗𝖔𝖌𝖗𝖆𝖒𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖌𝖚𝖆𝖌𝖊 𝖉𝖊𝖘𝖎𝖌𝖓 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖉𝖊𝖕𝖑𝖔𝖞𝖒𝖊𝖓𝖙! 𝕱𝖔𝖗 𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖊 𝖎𝖓𝖋𝖔𝖗𝖒𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓,
11:41:39 <fizzie> (Sadly, it does not work in my terminal; had to go all XChat for it.)
11:41:45 <ion> Works in mine.
11:41:56 <fizzie> Possibly a font problem.
11:43:26 <fizzie> Heh; at codu logs with this work-borwser, doesn't show up in the regular logs but does show up in the "text" and "raw" ones.
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14:43:35 <RocketJSquirrel> <fizzie> Heh; at codu logs with this work-borwser, doesn't show up in the regular logs but does show up in the "text" and "raw" ones. // whoah, same here ... that's odd.
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14:47:54 <fizzie> That's funny, the HTML version is physically full of ef bf bd (that's UTF8ese for U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER) where the characters should be.
14:48:18 <fizzie> They're non-BMP characters, maybe someone has Uniscrewed up?
14:48:30 <fizzie> (That's what screwing up Unicode support is called.)
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16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, didn't you know that elliott's real name is actually Ell Iot the Third?
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16:26:16 * Sgeo learns of the being known as Xah Lee
16:26:24 <Sgeo> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/71ff72fc0f45ec82
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16:38:40 <Taneb> The UK's going to lose Eurovision this year.
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17:24:40 <Taneb> I'm thinking of learning C++
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17:27:14 <Taneb> Any suggestions for a tutorial?
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17:29:18 <Taneb> WWW isn't working, but IRC seems to be?
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17:30:19 <Taneb> Skype seems to be working too
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17:35:36 <Ngevd> So... I shouldn't learn C++?
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17:39:10 <Ngevd> I'm looking for a language to learn that isn't Haskell.
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17:39:34 <Ngevd> Because, while Haskell is great and all, it's all I know other than a little Python and less VB
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17:40:22 <Ngevd> Okay, can you recommend a C tutorial?
17:41:11 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: it's capitalised "OCaml", which would have worked just as well
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17:44:53 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: Watch me pull this topic out of my hat! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:05:41 <HackEgo> sidneycavalanti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:07:56 <fizzie> You just did a causality violation.
18:09:15 <itidus21> google celebrates origami grandmaster akira yoshizawa.. wiki page includes link to Tribute by David Lister (no relation to red dwarf)
18:10:14 <itidus21> i only mentioned it for the red dwarf reference
18:10:25 <zzo38> Do you agree/disagree some of Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth?
18:10:36 <RocketJSquirrel> itidus21: Make sure you keep us up to date on all potential Red Dwarf references.
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18:26:35 <zzo38> Once I saw some question asking if "I is" can be used in English language. Now I have a second question to go with it, which is if "i is" can be used in English language.
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18:27:32 <itidus21> at least in my imagination he does
18:28:22 <itidus21> i is savvy to right grammar feel me?
18:29:09 <zzo38> I was thinking of "i is the square root of negative one".
18:29:51 <itidus21> that would be the textual rorschach test
18:31:04 <itidus21> you probably want to field your comments to more than one person
18:31:59 <fizzie> Funny, this Chromium (17) doesn't do a 'fi' ligature in the text, where a Firefox (10) does.
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18:34:24 <fizzie> (Even though 17 is like seven more than 10.)
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19:01:48 <elliott> 08:53:53: <olsner> "For the next release I’m trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28."
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19:01:52 <elliott> olsner: he's great isn't he
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19:05:49 <olsner> nice, proggit found a "Single-process, event-driven server from 1999!"
19:06:23 <fizzie> Let's serve like it's 1999?
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19:08:14 <elliott> 17:40:00: <RocketJSquirrel> !c printf("Then learn %c\n", unix["OCAML"]);
19:08:14 <elliott> 17:40:05: <EgoBot> Then learn C
19:08:23 <elliott> is unix even a standard symbol
19:08:26 <oerjan> 16:38:40: <Taneb> The UK's going to lose Eurovision this year.
19:08:26 <oerjan> 16:38:42: <Taneb> Again.
19:08:36 <oerjan> did someone tell them there's only one winner each year?
19:08:55 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Pollution :'(
19:08:56 <olsner> elliott: likely not standard-standard, but one of the symbols you can #ifdef to see if you're on unix
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19:10:16 <fizzie> !c printf("Best letter: %c", __DBL_DIG__["ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ"]);
19:10:42 <fizzie> At least it's got the __s, though.
19:11:13 <fizzie> According to "gcc -E -dD -x c /dev/null", "linux" and "unix" are the only underscoreless ones here.
19:12:40 <elliott> !c printf("%c", "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"[_POSIX_VERSION%26]);
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19:15:45 <olsner> !c printf("%d",_POSIX_VERSION);
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19:17:12 <fizzie> !c printf("%c", unix[__VERSION__]);
19:17:40 <fizzie> Oh, I should've printed it with %d for more confusion.
19:17:44 <fizzie> !c printf("%d", unix[__VERSION__]);
19:17:51 <fizzie> It's obviously a V46 Unix.
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19:21:23 <elliott> shachaf: "appEndo looks a lot less like a magic spell when you spell it app_endo" --DanBurton
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19:23:58 <oerjan> (spells are _supposed_ to be broken latin, right?)
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19:26:45 <olsner> for some reason this open IRC connection works although any new outgoing connections are broken
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19:26:59 <oerjan> i had that happen once.
19:27:05 <oerjan> it was dns which was done
19:27:51 <olsner> well, ping and dns works...
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19:28:20 <oerjan> or wait was it that even weirder case when my isp lost contact with most places outside norway
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19:28:55 <oerjan> but i could log on to nvg, and from there to anywhere. or was it more complicated than that.
19:29:01 <olsner> seems I'll have to get a server someplace on the internet, then do ip-over-ping to that server
19:29:49 <olsner> or just switch ISP to something that doesn't require this netgear crap
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19:36:49 <oerjan> somehow i have never had that problem.
19:37:47 <oerjan> my problem is more of the never managing to take off kind.
19:37:55 <elliott> do you have any ideas for better names for [[EsoInterpreters]]? :P
19:38:14 <fizzie> Esorters. Wait, no, "better". Sorry.
19:38:15 <elliott> I suppose [[Interpreters in esoteric languages]] would work, but that could be used for implementations of /non-esoteric/ languages in esolangs
19:38:20 <oerjan> i don't see what's wrong with it.
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19:38:44 <fizzie> [[Interpreters of esoteric languages in esoteric languages by esoteric languages for esoteric languages]].
19:38:49 <elliott> oerjan: well the camelcase is very out-of-place and it doesn't offer any useful information beyond "Interpreters"
19:39:02 <oerjan> elliott: well if we get any of those they would probably deserve to be there
19:40:24 <elliott> oerjan: err, wat? it's meant to be a cross-reference. if you add a column you add a row. thus if i implemented C in Thue, we'd have to add implementations of all the esolangs in C to the table
19:40:52 <oerjan> we have many more rows than columns
19:41:23 <oerjan> in fact i've been thinking that if we get much more columns it should be split up, i thought the self-interpreters could be their own table
19:41:36 <olsner> I think that table wants to be automatically generated
19:41:40 <elliott> well ok "if you add a row and there are any relevant column entries then you add a column"
19:41:55 <elliott> olsner: yes, that was what i was going to work on, but then i got annoyed at the page name again.
19:43:01 <olsner> I think fizzie is on the right track with [[Interpreters of esoteric languages in esoteric languages by esoteric languages for esoteric languages]]
19:44:11 <zzo38> How does ip-over-ping work?
19:45:25 <fizzie> olsner: Are you sure it's not lacking few more prepositions? Under esoteric languages alongside esoteric languages betwixt esoteric languages notwithstanding esoteric languages?
19:45:41 <olsner> zzo38: based on my recent experiments, better than ip-over-internet
19:47:06 <olsner> well, tcp/ip-over-internet, the ip part is actually somewhat working
19:47:15 <olsner> fizzie: I'd google for even more prepositions if I could
19:48:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw i _believe_ that it can be generated with a (hideous) template
19:48:14 <elliott> so that all you'd need to do is something like
19:49:00 <elliott> | slashes=[[:///]];bct http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss;bct http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nthern/archive#BCT_interpreter_in_.2F.2F.2F
19:49:45 <elliott> hmm is Ook! _really_ a joke language? we have worse BF derivatives categorised as languages :P
19:52:19 <zzo38> Today's horoscope include a grand trine of Ven-Mar-Plu and Jup-Mar-Plu. (Actually, Lilith does too.) So, if someone ask you, what is today's horoscope? Then tell them there is the grand trine. If they ask you what that means, tell them it is three objects 120 degrees apart of ecliptic longitude from each other.
19:54:22 <oerjan> istr r/astronomy had pictures of a venus-jupiter conjunction some days ago
19:55:17 <oerjan> or wait is that what this implies today
19:55:17 <ais523> elliott: hmm, well it was intended as a joke…
19:55:19 <zzo38> There is the Venus-Jupiter conjunction even today it seems; although their ecliptic latitudes differ.
19:55:21 <ais523> this is as bad as the esolang/not esolang thing
19:55:27 <ais523> I'd prefer to categorise it as nonjoke, though
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19:56:02 <zzo38> (If there is Ven-Mar-Plu and Jup-Mar-Plu grand trines today, that does imply Venus-Jupiter conjunction)
19:56:16 <elliott> ais523: we seem to treat direct brainfuck ciphers as joke languages
19:56:26 <elliott> ais523: btw, did you hear that someone wrote an underload self-interp?
19:57:00 <ais523> elliott: you mean, not the ()^ joke one?
19:57:06 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard
19:57:10 <zzo38> I have never looked at the actual planets with a telescope, although I sometimes see moon and planets and stars and so on just looking outside, I can see which direction and how close they are to each other and so on. I can compute horizon view on my computer as well, though.
19:57:16 <fizzie> olsner: 'betwixt' and 'notwithstanding' were from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_prepositions
19:57:22 <ais523> in fact, it should be pretty easy
19:57:24 <fizzie> olsner: Not that you probably can see it HA HA AH
19:57:36 <elliott> "An Underload self-interpreter without cheating would be quite an achievement!" --you, 2007
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19:58:22 <oerjan> the question would be how the input is encoded, no?
19:58:54 <elliott> church numerals apparently
19:58:55 <oerjan> without encoding, i see no way to evaluate (:^):^ without cheating
19:59:17 <kmkr> a question. which one i should learn? haskell, scheme, or lisp?
19:59:29 <zzo38> kmkr: Perhaps learn all three.
19:59:30 <kmkr> i see many esolang related programs are written in haskell
19:59:42 <oerjan> well it's my favorite language these days
20:00:13 <kmkr> heh, when i was writing that i was in fact thinking about your programs :D
20:01:00 <zzo38> I wrote a compiler for the esolang Constantinople, in Haskell.
20:01:14 <elliott> oerjan and zzo38 are probably to blame for the number of haskell esolang programs
20:01:29 <elliott> but it's rather popular in here too
20:01:37 <elliott> kmkr: as far as "lisp" goes, assuming you mean Common Lisp, I wouldn't bother
20:01:40 <zzo38> If you do search in esolang wiki, you can find other things too.
20:01:46 <elliott> (R5RS) scheme is a far more interesting language in that family
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20:02:21 <elliott> if you learn haskell, scheme will be easy to learn. scheme knowledge helps comparatively less in learning haskell. but scheme is easier to learn coming from a background of "traditional" languages
20:03:31 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
20:03:32 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
20:03:46 <elliott> ais523: hey, is it possible to do a map over every parameter in mediawiki?
20:04:11 <ais523> not as far as I know, unless you know all the possible parameter names, and only then via the stupidest form of iteration
20:04:38 <ais523> I seem to remember the devs yelling at the authors of {{for}}, too
20:04:46 <elliott> ais523: hmm... what do templates that take arbitrary amounts of data do, then? oh, hmm, perhaps I can achieve this with X-Macros
20:04:48 <ais523> because it produced too much server load, or something
20:04:50 <zzo38> Make a MediaWiki extension.
20:04:56 <elliott> does {{ {{{1}}} | blah }} ever work to invoke a template?
20:04:57 <ais523> elliott: they cap at an arbitrary number
20:05:08 <elliott> OK, so I can produce a data file like
20:05:08 <ais523> this is the usual way to do large hash tables
20:05:14 <elliott> {{ {{{1}}} | name=abc | foo=bar }}
20:05:14 <elliott> {{ {{{1}}} | name=abc | foo=bar }}
20:05:19 <elliott> and then call it from other templates
20:05:25 <elliott> which pass another template as an argument
20:05:33 <ais523> where are you going with this?
20:05:40 <elliott> ais523: trying to generate the [[EsoInterpreters]] table
20:05:47 <elliott> because it's unmaintainable :P
20:06:08 <kmkr> oerjan: would you recommend any particular haskell implementation? should work in windows.
20:06:19 <elliott> kmkr: http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/
20:06:24 <zzo38> kmkr: I use GHC myself.
20:06:32 <elliott> it includes a windowsy REPL (like python console)
20:06:45 <zzo38> Also, I have sometimes wanted something that includes things of Haskell, Lisp, and Scheme.
20:06:53 <elliott> kmkr: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is the best tutorial to learn Haskell with
20:07:48 <oerjan> is #haskell still recommendable?
20:08:13 <elliott> #esoteric is the best place for haskell help :p
20:08:27 <oerjan> i guess that's accurate
20:08:41 <elliott> kmkr: i might as well give the standard advice to forget everything you know about programming, since haskell is so different to everything else
20:08:57 <elliott> but i guess that's less of a problem for esolangers :P
20:09:00 <kmkr> ah. easily done
20:09:11 <zzo38> kmkr: Here is one Haskell program in esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pure_BF/Implementation
20:09:37 <elliott> kmkr: i feel compelled to note that zzo38's haskell style is not considered idiomatic.
20:09:43 <oerjan> kmkr: you should perhaps know that zzo38 has a rather d... right :P
20:10:08 <oerjan> i'm not 100% mine is, either, but at least i use layout
20:10:16 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you are correct. But it does not necessarily have to be idiomatic to work.
20:10:43 <oerjan> i suppose it might also be nice to see how different from idiomatic you _can_ program
20:11:04 <zzo38> I just do it the way which makes sense to me
20:11:16 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I have a feeling this may need more template metaprogramming than mediawiki can support
20:12:04 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
20:13:54 <oerjan> > filterM(const[True,False])[1,2,3] -- and yet another haskell example
20:13:55 <zzo38> oerjan: How is your Haskell programming difference from whatever other style there is?
20:13:55 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3],[1,2],[1,3],[1],[2,3],[2],[3],[]]
20:14:30 <kmkr> what does idiomatic even mean in programming?
20:14:52 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know, i'm just not assuming i'm entirely idiomatic.
20:15:04 <zzo38> It is the compound word of "idiot" and "automatic".
20:15:36 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird/sandbox/data&action=edit
20:15:47 <oerjan> that `flip` idiom i just started using in my BFQdeql might not be very widespread
20:15:52 <kmkr> really? i was thinking of idioms in normal languages
20:16:12 <elliott> kmkr: it's pretty much the same as the natural language meaning
20:16:21 <oerjan> but otoh i haven't read that much other code
20:16:35 <monqy> kmkr: idiomatic is not a compound of idiot and automatic
20:16:35 <oerjan> kmkr: i think zzo38 was joking.
20:16:52 <elliott> kmkr: what me and oerjan were trying to say is that zzo38's programs are written and structured in a very different way than most people skilled in haskell would structure them.
20:17:19 <elliott> thus reading them is unlikely to help a beginner learn the language :p
20:17:50 <zzo38> I don't think that necessarily means they won't help anyone
20:18:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think they're more useful to get a wider perspective once you've learned the basics
20:18:50 <kmkr> probably i'll deviate from the usual way myself once i learn the basics
20:19:12 <elliott> might take more than learning the basics to be able to productively deviate from the usual style in haskell
20:19:53 <kmkr> that remains to be seen. i have no idea what to expect.
20:20:18 <kmkr> i'm basically starting from zero
20:20:24 <kmkr> with this kind of programming
20:20:27 <zzo38> I think you can learn the basics in any way you just do it in whatever way make most sensible for you.
20:27:58 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
20:31:19 <elliott> hey oerjan, can you convert [[EsoInterpreters]] to use a wikitable and ths? :P
20:31:49 -!- olsner has joined.
20:32:40 <oerjan> you mean html table syntax? i'm not very familiar with it.
20:32:55 <elliott> I just meant using ! headings for the language names
20:33:10 <kmkr> guess what might look good? some javascript thing where languages would be circles that move in circles and lines with an arrow tip would connect them, pointing which language is implemented in which
20:33:15 <oerjan> well i suppose that should be possible to achieve.
20:33:46 <elliott> kmkr: you won't catch me implementing that any time soon :P
20:37:03 <oerjan> elliott: it's already trying to use something called "wikitable plainlinks"
20:37:25 <ais523> plainlinks gets rid of the external link arrow on external links, right?
20:38:04 <oerjan> elliott: oh that was you. i was just about to remove the plainlinks part :P
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20:41:14 <elliott> oerjan: yes. except you removed the right-alignment of the text
20:41:25 <elliott> oh just needs s/align="right"/style="text-align: right"/g
20:41:32 <oerjan> no i didn't, i just hit that bug again
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20:43:17 <oerjan> incidentally i just c/p your s///g line
20:44:30 <elliott> oerjan: ok now my secret additional plan is to use some CSS or JS to get crosshair highlighting
20:44:37 <elliott> i.e. rolling over a cell highlights the column and the row
20:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also confirm/deny that your name in Hexhamese is Ell Iot the Third.
20:52:11 <ais523> eot the llI (best viewed in a font where l and I look much the same)
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20:57:17 <ais523> hmm, all the known diff algorithms seem to be O(n^2) worst case
20:57:24 <ais523> so why does diff not take ages in practice?
20:58:16 <elliott> and they're not worst-case
20:58:32 <ais523> the worst case seems pretty plausible in practice, though
20:58:44 <ais523> (one small change near the start, one small change near the end, arbitrary changes elsewhere)
21:01:39 <fizzie> ais523: Do the tools actually guarantee optimal diffs, though? They could just be using windows of reasonable size.
21:02:35 <ais523> fizzie: I was wondering about that
21:02:35 <elliott> that also is what i say was going to
21:02:40 <ais523> but this algo doesn't seem to have a concept of a window
21:04:57 <fizzie> ais523: If it's the dynamic-programming tabular thing, I think you can retrofit a window into it by restricting things on the "diagonal" (+ fiddling), though I haven't thought this through.
21:06:19 <fizzie> "The basic algorithm is described in "An O(ND) Difference Algorithm and its Variations", Eugene W. Myers, Algorithmica Vol. 1 No. 2, 1986, pp. 251-266; and in "A File Comparison Program", Webb Miller and Eugene W. Myers, Software--Practice and Experience Vol. 15 No. 11, 1985, pp. 1025-1040." Is that / are those the things you were referring to?
21:07:02 <ais523> I was basing it on the dynamic programming algo in Wikipedia
21:07:30 <fizzie> That was a quotation from the diffutils infopage.
21:07:54 <ais523> hmm, I'd need a good academic library to get copies of those
21:07:59 <ais523> I have access to one, but not right now
21:08:24 <fizzie> http://www.xmailserver.org/diff2.pdf
21:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: That's ILLEGAL!!!! (Possibly.)
21:10:04 <fizzie> They say it's O(ND) where D is the size of the edit script, which is small for reasonable files; and O(N+D^2) "random-case".
21:10:25 <ais523> elliott: meh, I can almost certainly access it legally if I just wait until tomorrow
21:10:25 <fizzie> I guess it's possible. It was the first google-hit for the paper title.
21:11:16 <elliott> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.4.6927 has a PDF.
21:11:21 <elliott> Or is CiteSeerX illegal too?
21:11:58 <fizzie> The "download link" there is to xmailserver.org.
21:12:26 <elliott> Yes, but it has a cached copy.
21:12:46 <fizzie> It's a weird place for that document.
21:13:26 <fizzie> I suppose a mail server could concievably make use of it, maybe, somehow, but still.
21:14:34 <elliott> oerjan: so, is self-BCT TC?
21:17:40 <fizzie> ais523: Also to finish the quotation, "The algorithm was independently discovered as described in "Algorithms for Approximate String Matching", E. Ukkonen, Information and Control Vol. 64, 1985, pp. 100-118.". I think I've read that, or at least some string paper by Ukkonen.
21:18:03 <elliott> <fizzie> (Finnish people are very smart.)
21:18:15 <elliott> <fizzie> (They're speech recognition researchers and whatnot.)
21:18:20 <ais523> fizzie: finnish names are reasonably recognizable; I know a few from following Formula 1
21:19:14 <fizzie> Anyway, that last paper is available from the author's page at Helsinki University.
21:19:40 <elliott> ais523: Too bad they never reach the Finnish line.
21:20:01 <fizzie> Google Scholar finds it; I'd paste a link but I can't quite figure out how to get the actual PDF with this phone.
21:20:20 <ais523> elliott: I know that was a bad joke, but IIRC there have been Finnish Formula 1 world champions
21:20:50 <fizzie> I think >1, though I don't really follow.
21:21:04 <ais523> nor do I nowadays, although I used to
21:21:08 <fizzie> If not world champions, then at least relatively successful drivers.
21:21:36 <elliott> <fizzie> (I do follow, of course. We Finns have to do everything we can to see the incredibly rare sight of a Finn winning at anything.)
21:21:45 <elliott> <fizzie> (But I can't let the foreigners know that.)
21:22:02 <fizzie> Mika Häkkinen and Kimi Räikkönen and Mika Salo are I think people who do things with cars.
21:23:38 <fizzie> Could you, I don't know, shut up or something?
21:24:08 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, people never write the accents on their names in the UK
21:24:14 <ais523> not even on the official commentary thing
21:24:18 <ais523> is it usual to omit them in Finland too?
21:24:22 <elliott> fizzie: I think your speech recognition software just malfunctioned. Did someone ask you a question after you said "Could you,"?
21:24:28 <elliott> The answer got included in your IRC line.
21:25:41 <fizzie> Also I thought Keke Rosberg was a rally driver, but apparently he's a F1 world champion (the first Finnish) too. There's some sort of an idiotic "song" about him.
21:26:02 <fizzie> "Kekekekekekekeke Roosberi Roosberi" or so on.
21:27:25 <elliott> <fizzie> (The Finnish national anthem.)
21:29:57 <ais523> elliott: if you're going to troll fizzie, at least make it vaguely good trolling
21:30:11 <elliott> ais523: This is pretty good by Finnish standards!!!
21:30:42 <oerjan> elliott: no, that would be Mämmi
21:32:43 <oerjan> i can only assume fizzie left to invade norway.
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21:37:59 <fizzie> The song, maybe: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keke_Rosberg_formula_rock
21:38:34 <elliott> This song is about a family father, who bought a family car.
21:38:34 <elliott> "Dad bought the car, it's pretty tasteless."
21:38:34 <elliott> Father may be influenced by Rosberg driving style, and he was shipped over to tear around the extensive family of traffic.
21:38:34 <elliott> "The car is turbocharged, the driver is Urpo. Gas-presses, gas money is a loan, the family kuskaa, not realizing puskaa, where the bollard lurking ... »
21:38:35 <elliott> Father's racing ends when he drives into the woods, as a result will have a wheelchair .
21:38:37 <elliott> »... Father driving mettään not known kettään. Away from the father's concern, it is sufficient wheelchair ... »
21:38:40 <elliott> The boy may later own a moped, and you drive the same style as his father.
21:40:11 <elliott> These words ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE TO FINNS
21:40:23 <elliott> "Matti Kalervo, "Peltsi" not set ( March 28, 1951 in Helsinki - July 13, 1995 Vasa ) was a well-known Finnish actress . He was able to make 50 the role of the film career and became known especially in Aki Kaurismäki's films as an actor standard."
21:40:29 <elliott> fizzie: How many of your actresses are male?
21:40:52 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOp4z2MkCOo -- the description mentions a translation.
21:41:25 <elliott> Sorry, the file you requested is not available.
21:41:26 <elliott> - File date limit has expired.
21:41:26 <elliott> - File was not successfully uploaded.
21:41:26 <elliott> Please contact the uploader and ask them to upload the file again. sendspace is not able to help you in this matter.
21:42:40 <fizzie> The YT comments have some lyrics, but they're not much better than GT.
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21:44:08 <elliott> ais523: Did you know that Memory Alpha's main page is [[Portal:Main]]?
21:44:34 <elliott> ais523: On the other hand, it's a Wikia.
21:45:02 <elliott> fizzie: These other-language Wikipedias are so... depressing.
21:45:10 <elliott> The articles are so pitiful.
21:45:14 <RocketJSquirrel> "IDW Publishing has announced the release of a Next Generation/Doctor Who crossover comic, entitled Assimilation2."
21:45:39 <elliott> "Google's corporate culture has been a slogan "Do not be evil" (Do not be evil), according to which it tends to keep terms with the users, rather than the formation of high-hated company. However, the slogan has occasionally been mentioned by others might be unduly: Google's own corporate presentation, it is the sixth list of ten principles and describes the company's mainly a way to offer ads, that is, to avoid irrelevant, pushy, or disguised ad
21:45:56 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: This sounds like the worst of all possible ideas X-D
21:46:16 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: Next Generation here refers to the Star Trek series?
21:46:22 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9692630/implementing-haskells-maybe-monad-in-c11
21:46:31 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: And therefore the best.
21:46:42 <ais523> and it sounds like the worst of all possible good ideas, to me
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21:47:52 <ais523> (well, no, it doesn't, I just wanted to say that)
21:49:38 <elliott> fizzie: That song. It is in my head now.
21:49:40 <elliott> Curse your Finnish revenge.
21:49:43 <RocketJSquirrel> I think it might be the best of all possible abysmally bad ideas.
21:50:23 <elliott> Like being the tallest dwarf.
21:52:59 <zzo38> But what if belief of Intelligent Design operating with evolution?
21:53:02 <fizzie> We had an Intelligent Design seminar at the university once, maybe six-seven years back. It was the weirdest thing.
21:53:19 <zzo38> fizzie: OK then explain
21:54:01 <fizzie> Did you know that the idea of the eye evolving is as ludicrous as an LP record that can be flipped around?
21:54:09 <fizzie> Or something like that.
21:54:28 <fizzie> It was mostly weird metaphors like that.
21:54:53 <zzo38> Some (not necessarily all) LP records can be flipped around. What is the point of metaphors like that?
21:55:45 <ais523> clearly an LP that can be flipped around couldn't possibly evolve, because what use would it be to have half a song on the other side?
21:56:27 <oerjan> the point of metaphors are to flip around, before they fall flat on the floor, butter side down.
21:56:28 <zzo38> Maybe if it is too long to fit on one side of a single record.
21:56:30 <elliott> <zzo38> But what if belief of Intelligent Design operating with evolution?
21:56:41 <elliott> zzo38: The two are incompatible by definition. "Intelligent Design" != "intelligent design".
21:56:49 <fizzie> It was organized by this http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matti_Leisola dude.
21:56:54 <elliott> (e.g., intelligent design of the initial conditions of the universe and evolution are compatible)
21:57:04 <elliott> (but Intelligent Design, the ideology, specifically contradicts evolution)
21:57:25 <zzo38> Yes I know what you mean once you mentioned the capitalization at once.
21:58:35 <fizzie> Ooh, the article mentions our thing. Seems it was in 2004.
21:59:14 <fizzie> With e.g. Richard Sternberg lecturing.
22:00:24 <fizzie> I vaguely recall there were some rather pointed questions from the audience, but not much was accomplished (oh no).
22:00:27 <ais523> what time zone offset is PST?
22:00:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:06 <ais523> trying to make sense of this Azure timezone bug
22:01:08 <fizzie> Except the "Skepsis" organization gave Leisola the "Huuhaa" ("woo-woo") award.
22:01:51 <elliott> ais523: they had another datetime bug?
22:01:53 <fizzie> ais523: Pacific or Philippines? Both use the same abbreviation.
22:02:00 <ais523> elliott: no, the feb 29 one
22:02:06 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't say, but I'm guessing Pacific from context
22:02:32 <fizzie> ais523: PST was featured prominently in that horrible "round to midnight" discussion #esoteric had.
22:03:08 <fizzie> The fact that one meaning of PST is +8 and one -8 and both are 0 (modulo 8) was also involved.
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22:06:41 <fizzie> Anyway, to jump back a bit; Leisola is one of those "microevolution happens, but the real thing doesn't", and I think mostly because he's worked on biochemistry a lot, and it's been so difficult, and therefore it's "ridiculous" to think that evolution could manage to accomplish anything, when he himself hasn't.
22:07:07 <fizzie> Also he thinks the Flood happened, and the Ark had one of each baramin, or whatever.
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22:08:31 * Phantom_Hoover decided to generate a large DF world with history set to very long.
22:08:34 <fizzie> But even given all that, apparently he still has managed to do quite a lot of good chemistry.
22:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dude, what happened to THE FORTRESS YOU WERE BUILDING?
22:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I had my doubts about the embark site wait it's past ten oh no what
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22:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> A cavern layer in the wrong place could easily devastate the fortress' design; I stupidly used reveal, and wasn't able to resist the temptation to probe the entire map into boringness.
22:12:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember when you were all "ME, CHEAT? PFFFT NO YOU'RE PARANOID"?
22:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never used reveal on a running fort, and I've cut back on use of prospect almost entirely.
22:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and anyway, your opposition to me cheating extended to outlawing turning the temperature simulation off, even though it was the only thing keeping large forts playable for me.
22:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ":'(" -- phantom hoover
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22:17:14 <elliott> ais523: hey, you're good at proving things sub-TC, right?
22:17:15 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:17:38 <ais523> elliott: moderately good
22:17:48 <ais523> although don't mention something like Dupdog or Xigxag, I don't have a clue with those
22:18:53 <elliott> ais523: well, I want to design a language like self-BCT or Clue (Keymaker), except even simpler
22:19:19 <ais523> hmm, I hate TC proofs for those sorts of languages
22:19:32 <elliott> that's why I asked for a sub-TC proof!
22:20:05 * RocketJSquirrel hands ais523 an onion bagel with sour cream and caramel sauce.
22:20:44 <oerjan> as any computation must remove a layer of the onion, it eventually terminates. Q.E.D.
22:20:53 <ais523> elliott: and the reverse :)
22:21:08 <olsner> bagels, are we talking about bagels now?
22:21:50 <elliott> basically, the thing I don't like about self-BCT is that it has an IP
22:21:58 <elliott> separate to the notion of a leftmost bit
22:27:53 <elliott> does self-BCT have a separate IP?
22:28:25 <oerjan> it's pretty clear from the trace example
22:30:05 <elliott> oerjan: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP TC OR NOT TC
22:30:11 * elliott knows how to get oerjan to do things.
22:30:42 <oerjan> erm this is a rewriting system of sorts? and x is any string?
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22:31:41 <elliott> every step, it examines the first bits according to the above pattern, and does the appropriate replacement, then starts again
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22:32:18 <oerjan> um that makes it clearly a pushdown automaton.
22:32:31 <elliott> so e.g. 0110 -> 1010 -> 1110 -> 110 -> 01 -> 10 -> 111
22:33:21 <elliott> oerjan: even if it's cyclic?
22:33:47 <oerjan> oh so that's sent to the end?
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22:34:01 <elliott> um i'm not sure what you mean by sent to the end
22:34:16 <elliott> if the pattern-matching process reaches the end of the string, it wraps around, so to speak
22:34:19 <oerjan> elliott: you are not saying where the _rest_ of the string ends up
22:34:42 <elliott> where * is all the rest of the bits
22:35:00 <oerjan> elliott: and the pattern is always the leftmost bits? then it's a pushdown automaton.
22:35:24 <oerjan> and if it isn't, then you still have a separate ip like self-bct
22:35:55 -!- atehwa has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:36:37 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is it actually possible for admins to see deleted revisions of images?
22:36:54 <ais523> not sure; it used not to be, but that mat have changed
22:38:14 <fizzie> Is it possible for admins to see deleted people?
22:38:34 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, i think what i want is impossible
22:38:52 <elliott> oerjan: the thing i didn't like about self-bct/keymaker-clue was that they had "non-local" modifications
22:39:08 <oerjan> elliott: well i was thinking if you do 0x* -> *x0 instead...
22:39:09 <elliott> keymaker-clue adds things to the "beginning of the string", away from the IP
22:39:17 <elliott> self-BCT deletes the left of the string
22:39:24 <elliott> I wanted a possibly-TC language where everything was "local" to the IP
22:39:44 <elliott> oerjan: that could work. and /arguably/ doesn't violate my local requirement...
22:39:53 <elliott> it's equivalent to deleting the first few chars and appending to the end of the program
22:39:54 <oerjan> elliott: if you consider it a cycle, then doing things both at the beginning and end is still local
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22:40:46 <oerjan> and afair tag systems with a fixed program are like that, so _some_ set of rules for this will be tc.
22:43:46 <elliott> oerjan: what's the huh for, btw?
22:45:23 <elliott> oerjan: oh hm i think this doesn't work because the number of 0s is always <=
22:45:40 <elliott> oh but then the same applies to 1s :P
22:45:58 <elliott> in fact, it didn't apply to the original either
22:45:59 <oerjan> my huh was because most of your rules still do things only at the beginning. i wasn't thinking like that.
22:46:25 <elliott> hmm... 100 -> 001 -> 100 -> 001 -> ...
22:47:23 <oerjan> the original never increases no. of 0's
22:48:00 <elliott> this is what i meant by original
22:48:04 <elliott> ok i'll start actually versoning them
22:48:24 <elliott> 100 doesn't increase number of 0s
22:48:58 <elliott> 100 -> 001 -> 100 -> 001 -> ... again
22:50:11 <oerjan> not to mention _none_ of your suggestions increase the length of the string.
22:50:29 <elliott> oerjan: erm 10x* -> x*x1 does.
22:54:35 <elliott> oerjan: sorry, i'm an idiot.
22:55:47 <elliott> ok, let me try this again :P
22:56:08 <oerjan> it all seems a little random.
22:56:29 <elliott> i was trying to simplify it there.
22:58:15 <oerjan> um 11* -> 11*1 does increase
22:58:28 <oerjan> oh wait you said decrease
22:58:50 <oerjan> that's not _necessarily fatal, see sqeql
22:59:48 <elliott> 1101 -> [1|1]01 -> 11011 -> [1|1]011 -> 110111 -> ok this one is obvious
23:02:19 <elliott> 011 -> [0|1]1 -> 11 -> [1|1] -> 111
23:02:38 <elliott> -> [1|1]11 -> 11111 -> obvious
23:02:55 <elliott> pretty sure they all just start spamming 1s eventually
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23:05:23 <fizzie> Not that it's terribly interesting, but it doesn't spam 1s.
23:06:30 <elliott> OK, "anything with more than a negligble amount of 1s starts spamming 1s eventually".
23:07:30 <fizzie> 101010 - 0010101 - 101010 - ... and that can have an arbitrary amount of 1s. :p
23:08:27 <elliott> You're like speech recognition software.
23:08:30 <elliott> Unforgiving and stupid. :(
23:10:55 <elliott> I think this is what they call a "burn".
23:11:31 <fizzie> 10100 - 001001 - 10010 - 000101 - 01010 - 0101 - 010 - 01 - 1 - don't know where to go from there.
23:18:32 <elliott> So 1 falls under the 1x* rule, with x=1.
23:21:15 <shachaf> If I compile a C++ program with -g, what's a simple way to match instructions to source code lines?
23:24:28 <fizzie> Ask the assembler to make a listing for you, with source lines as comments.
23:26:35 <shachaf> Oops, I wasn't compiling with -g.
23:26:52 <RocketJSquirrel> shachaf: Enjoy an hour and a half of recompiling to get that option in place.
23:27:48 <shachaf> RocketJSquirrel: This is one file.
23:28:17 <fizzie> Still! It's a minute per line!
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23:28:25 <shachaf> Most of them are comments.
23:31:07 <shachaf> So why is lea 0x1(%rdx),%r8d taking 90% of the program's CPU time?
23:31:29 <shachaf> That doesn't make sense. Maybe it's the line right before.
23:31:35 <fizzie> You increment a lot, maybe.
23:34:16 <fizzie> Per-instruction timings, are, like, so *fancy*. (--Mr. just-instruments-functions-with-gprof.)
23:36:26 <shachaf> If only I had functions. :-(
23:36:33 <fizzie> ais523: Speaking of nothing at all (but web'o'flies ~~ strace), I heard resize2fs breaks down if you try to run it under strace.
23:37:02 <shachaf> I ran gdb under strace yesterday.
23:37:18 <elliott> I ran strace under gdb under strace yesterday.
23:37:23 <olsner> I gotta try debugging gdb with gdb one time
23:38:25 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out how gdb implements "call"
23:38:43 <olsner> kind of like how it does print, but without the printing part
23:39:13 <shachaf> Except that call *does* print the result.
23:39:26 <shachaf> But fine. I was trying to figure out how gdb implements "print".
23:39:51 <fizzie> There's a thing called SystemTap which is, like, the fanciest thing since sliced bread when it comes to tracing, http://sourceware.org/systemtap/tutorial/Tracing.html
23:39:56 <olsner> maybe call just has the option not to print, so that it can handle functions without return values
23:40:05 <ais523> fizzie: weird; why would an ext2 resizer break under strace?
23:40:22 <ais523> only thing I can think of is that it has timing-sensitive critical sections, or something
23:40:38 <ais523> perhaps it should be impossible to ptrace a process at realtime priority
23:41:17 <fizzie> ais523: "Reads from disk normally are never short except in the case of disk
23:41:17 <fizzie> errors. strace causes this not to be true, but I don't intend to "fix"
23:41:43 <fizzie> Writes Ted Ts'o, and closes the bug as wontfix.
23:41:59 <ais523> I don't see why strace would cause short reads
23:42:12 <elliott> fizzie: re SystemTap: Pah, it should just <description of @'s debugger>.
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23:42:46 <ais523> elliott: that won't fit into 510 characters when we run the rewrite script!
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23:43:13 <ais523> (note: the @ log rewrite script necessarily has to be AI-complete, given the job we're trying to get it to do; it has to delete this line, for instance)
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23:43:39 <oerjan> so that's how the world ends.
23:44:02 <oerjan> by the rewrite script deciding that it has to delete all of humanity
23:44:38 <elliott> ais523: it is not the rewrite script's problem if you said nonsense in 2012.
23:44:59 <ais523> elliott: doesn't it have to hide the fact it existed?
23:45:55 <fizzie> ais523: It was in the context of attaching strace to a running process; maybe that could interrupt a read?
23:48:36 <fizzie> I don't think it's read from an actual disk is something that can normally be interrupted, but maybe ptrace's special.
23:49:12 <elliott> fizzie: Your speech recognition software can read regexps?
23:52:04 <elliott> "Semi-protected for a period of 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times. After 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times the page will be automatically unprotected."
23:56:54 <oerjan> `frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck times -> seconds
23:57:05 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "Planck". \ Warning: undefined symbol "times". \ Warning: undefined symbol "Planck". \ Warning: undefined symbol "times". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Planck (undefined symbol) times (undefined symbol) -> 1 s (time)
23:58:00 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "time". \ 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum) time (undefined symbol)
23:58:32 <HackEgo> 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum)
23:59:12 <oerjan> is that an official unit?
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