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00:12:53 <Sgeo> Synchtube is not perfect :(
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00:32:34 <RocketJSquirrel> There's no other symbol but lambda that's universally recognized as a symbol for programming languages, no?
00:33:14 <kmc> lambda is not universally recognized as a symbol for programming languages
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00:33:34 <oerjan> istr it's also a symbol for lesbians?
00:34:50 <hagb4rd> lambda indeed has a lot of associations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda
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00:36:04 <kmc> my point is more than putting lambdas on everything is a kind of political statement within programming languages
00:36:19 <RocketJSquirrel> It's not that everyone recognizes it as a symbol for programming languages, but those who are "into" programming languages consider it a symbol for the concept.
00:36:27 <kmc> or will be seen as such by many
00:36:52 <kmc> plenty of people appreciate FP and yet are annoyed by the people who think that incorporating crazy FP concepts is the only criterion for language goodness
00:38:15 <qfr> [02:36:04] <kmc> my point is more than putting lambdas on everything is a kind of political statement within programming languages
00:41:34 <kmc> itidus22, the jedis lived a long time ago and are surely dead by now
00:41:55 <kmc> or maybe they came to earth and are now known as.... LISP PROGRAMMERS!?!?!?
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00:56:28 <oerjan> kmc: yes but the galaxy is 50 million light years away, so their light may not have reached us yet
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00:59:11 <kmc> is that canon?
01:05:27 <olsner> kmc: far far = 50 million light years
01:10:17 <Sgeo> We were talking about far far away Jedis, so it's Star Trek, clearly.
01:12:31 <epoch_qwert> All I saw that hinted at starwars was "galaxy ... away" and "far far"
01:13:06 <shachaf> olsner: How many light years is far?
01:13:20 <epoch_qwert> far far = 50 million, far = sqrt(far far) ?
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02:55:33 <zzo38> quintopia: Hello. Any question/comment/complaint?
02:56:25 <quintopia> also in the topic what is "the other idea"
02:57:13 <zzo38> quintopia: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20_idea.txt
02:58:24 <shachaf> kmc: There are all sorts of other complications like running code in the mapped pages.
02:59:28 <zzo38> That is what "the other idea" is that I was refering to
02:59:29 <quintopia> zzo38: i like the "no monsters in the library" one
02:59:58 <calamari> is there an esolang that requires nested escaping to do anything useful?
03:00:07 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it is based on something in the computer game "Super ASCII MZX Town", which contains a lot of silly stuff.
03:00:48 <shachaf> The word "tutorial" annoys me more and more these days.
03:00:57 <zzo38> calamari: Yes I think there is, but I forget what it is called
03:00:57 <shachaf> Probably mostly for vaguely conalish reasons.
03:01:26 <calamari> I was just working on a shell script escaping backticks and quotes (where the amount of escaping was different for each) and thought .. wow this would make for a great esolang
03:01:49 <quintopia> calamari: /// has a lot of escaping
03:02:10 <quintopia> zzo38: i don't care if you copy things. it's a good challenge.
03:03:01 <zzo38> quintopia: It is a computer game I made myself, as it turns out. If the monsters needs the book you can go in the library and get it for them, is how this computer game works.
03:04:03 <quintopia> zzo38: oh i was thinking that you were putting it a dnd game, where the party is chased by monsters and they lock themselves inside a library, but if any monster gets end the game ends and everybody dies
03:05:21 <zzo38> quintopia: I did have the idea for the D&D game; but I wrote "apparently" and no this isn't the scenario I was thinking of (the party in this D&D game consist of some monster characters too)
03:05:54 <zzo38> And just because someone wrote that on a sign does not make it true anyways
03:07:00 <quintopia> zzo38: well, it could be that the universe ends only if a monster touches the book-of-power. and even then only if a d20 comes up 9 or less.
03:07:11 <calamari> quintopia: thanks, that's probably close enough
03:08:15 <zzo38> quintopia: That is one way to do what I wrote; not what I had in mind but of course you can make up scenarios in D&D game using my ideas, with various modifications. In Super ASCII MZX Town, the librarian just put that on the sign because they didn't want monsters in their library. But problem is, the sign is *inside* the library.
03:09:56 <quintopia> zzo38: i think you should do it one of these exciting ways. not just silly.
03:11:25 <zzo38> quintopia: Your ways do work. And, yes, it could be possible that they wrote that on the sign even though it is only sometimes the case! And some player characters can be monster characters anyways, but some isn't so it works
03:11:42 <zzo38> But I am not going to write any additional details on that note because I am not the referee
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03:14:24 <zzo38> Usually called the GM or Dungeons Master; "referee" is an uncommon term but I use it
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03:20:31 <quintopia> what is the purpose of that document zzo38?
03:23:31 <zzo38> quintopia: Just some ideas I had for possible situation in Dungeons&Dragons game
03:23:58 <quintopia> zzo38: oh i thought you were making ideas for yourself to use in your own games
03:24:16 <zzo38> If I have my own game then yes I might use the idea too
03:24:47 <zzo38> (Just so you know, Isolde and Kjugobe are names of two of the player characters in a game I am in; of course if use in other game we could change them)
03:25:29 <zzo38> And, the dungeons master does like this list! And in case they run out of idea might pick one I don't know which one is picked, and with some other things too not specified so that we don't know what exactly happened
03:28:53 <zzo38> What would make it interesting is such situations as these interwoven with other things too.
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03:41:53 <zzo38> I have made generalize of function in Haskell, such as: tail :: MonadLogic m => m x -> m x; (!!) :: (Copeanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i -> x; length :: (Peanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i; filter :: MonadPlus m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x; iterate :: Alternative f => (x -> x) -> x -> f x;
03:42:33 <zzo38> Is it good or is there other way, or other generalize too?
03:47:27 <zzo38> I could have this: unfoldTree :: Functor f => (b -> (a, f b)) -> b -> Cofree f a;
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04:33:39 <quintopia> zzo38: the word you should use there is "generalization"...if you care
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04:42:43 <qfr> I read that as "I have made a generalisation of Haskell" at first
04:43:05 <qfr> Which doesn't seem like an uncommon task
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06:18:08 <NSQX> !bf_txtgen Brainfuck
06:18:13 <EgoBot> 106 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>++++.>--.++++++++.+++++.--------.<+++.>---.++++++++.>-. [147]
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06:19:24 <NSQX> !bf_txtgen brainfuck
06:19:26 <EgoBot> 100 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>.>++.<-.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.>>----. [149]
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07:47:46 <NSQX> Our sub-lime wiki has been out of order for the last four days. What are you waiting for before you start editing again?
07:49:52 <NSQX> What are you all doing instead of editing this wiki and creating new esoteric programming languages?
07:50:57 <Sgeo> NSQX, it's not out of order.
07:51:43 <Sgeo> Or... what do you mean by out of order
07:52:13 <monqy> quality over quantity, NSQX
07:52:24 <monqy> I'll let you ponder on that
07:52:54 <NSQX> Actually, http://namelesswiki.com/ has been out of order for longer. There has been no real activity on http://namelesswiki.com/ for almost a month and http://namelesswiki.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges has been filled with spamming of [[Talk:Denial of Service Attack]] since 27th March 2012. However, what if that could happen to our sub-lime wiki?
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07:54:39 <Sgeo> NSQX, I would not use that wiki for security advice.
07:55:17 <NSQX> Anyway, what are you all doing instead of thinking of new esoteric programming languages?
07:55:52 <Sgeo> http://www.namelesswiki.com/wiki/SQL_Injection
07:56:05 <NSQX> zzo38: Everything instead of thinking of new esoteric programming languages or helping with the List of ideas?
07:56:07 <Sgeo> The Prevention section suggests filtering dangerous characters.
07:56:19 <Sgeo> There is no mention of parameterized queries of any sort.
07:56:20 <NSQX> zzo38: Everything except thinking of new esoteric programming languages or helping with the List of ideas?
07:57:02 <zzo38> NSQX: No, everything regardless. Just because we did not post it does not necessarily mean we did not think of it yet!
07:57:04 <Sgeo> There is a not bad, yet utterly irrelevant to the page, suggestion of not storing plaintext passwords
07:58:58 <Sgeo> NSQX, why do you look at nameless wiki?
08:00:29 <NSQX> Actually, the first time I went to the Nameless Wiki is when I went to the "Nameless language at Nameless Wiki" link on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nameless_language
08:01:40 <monqy> brainfuck derivative?
08:02:14 <shachaf> If you think about it, every language is, like, a BF derivative, man.
08:02:58 <shachaf> monqy: I thought you swore off hi forever.
08:03:15 <monqy> maybe elliotts too
08:03:21 <monqy> but I'm neither elliott not elliotts
08:03:51 <shachaf> do you like peter and the wolf
08:03:57 <monqy> saying hi after greeted is irresistable
08:04:00 <oklopol> RRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
08:04:51 <shachaf> monqy: E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XKlEfvP-lo
08:06:00 <shachaf> "Obviousness, it seems, eludes some people. Idiots mostly, including you. IDIOT!!!!"
08:06:50 <shachaf> monqy: I don't know whether you've heard of it, but have you heard it?
08:08:48 <shachaf> Oh, no, elliott will read the logs and hate me when he gets back online.
08:09:21 <monqy> maybe he won't read the logs
08:09:25 <shachaf> monqy: If saying hi after being greeted is irresistible, is it irresistible to respond with hi?
08:09:57 <monqy> im going to kick this habit !!!
08:10:06 <monqy> it's like drugs, and I'm kicking it
08:10:18 <monqy> what else would I do with drugs
08:10:23 <NSQX> But anyway, elliott will read the logs and think about "<NSQX> Our sub-lime wiki has been out of order for the last four days. What are you waiting for before you start editing again?" and further into that conversation.
08:10:48 <olsner> they really added a lot of crap in C++11
08:10:53 <monqy> NSQX: if he doesn't, I'll make him. it is an important concern and he should think aboutit
08:11:02 <monqy> shachaf: salutations
08:11:13 <olsner> somewhat torn between wanting to use new shiny features and wanting to nuke-from-orbit all traces of C++ I know
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08:12:05 <shachaf> That's dangerously close to "hi".
08:13:37 <shachaf> 01:13 < mm_freak> the docs state that hamlet is inspired by haml
08:13:38 <shachaf> Maybe Hamlet was inspired by Shakespeare.
08:13:59 <monqy> is shakespeare here
08:14:09 <monqy> good morning, shakespeare
08:14:16 <monqy> good evening, itidus20
08:14:20 <monqy> good afternoon, shachaf
08:14:33 <monqy> good day, everyone
08:15:06 <itidus20> good job so far in kicking the habit
08:18:03 <shachaf> Google Translate says it's "Monkey".
08:18:12 <shachaf> Google translate = Wrong translate.
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08:20:21 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:20:48 <monqy> shachaf: salutations
08:21:04 <itidus20> shachaf: try asking a yes/no question that you know the answer to
08:21:14 <shachaf> itidus20: I know the answers to all of them.
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08:55:50 <ion> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rasmus_Lerdorf http://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/18665/
08:56:38 <Taneb> Is Finnair a Finnish airline?
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08:58:30 <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today
08:59:39 <ion> In a smoking rubble?
09:00:28 <itidus20> I actually hate programming, but I love solving problems. I really don't like programming. There are people who actually like programming. I don't understand why they like programming. I do care about memory leaks but I still don't find programming enjoyable.
09:00:48 <Taneb> ...you're in a programming channel
09:01:42 <itidus20> it's from ion's link http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rasmus_Lerdorf
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09:01:59 <Taneb> I'm still on the first link
09:02:39 <Taneb> "Facebook and Wikipedia... could be written in Brainfuck"
09:03:15 <itidus20> i know uh the quotes take on different meanings than if i said them since the person who said it is a programming celebrity
09:04:11 <kmc> and you're more like a town drunk
09:04:21 <kmc> ion, that is a great blog article
09:05:13 <ion> kmc: I noticed mosh. Seems very useful. And you seem to be one of the authors. :-)
09:05:39 <kmc> we're in #mosh if you want to chat with KeithW, who did most of the design and coding
09:05:47 <kmc> i've mainly done security auditing and misc bugfixes
09:06:28 <Taneb> About the only good think I can think of of PHP is that most web servers seem to have it built in
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09:09:16 <kmc> i mean, it has allowed a lot of casual/amateur programmers to produce things which are useful
09:09:28 <kmc> that is *a* redeeming quality
09:09:39 <kmc> probably not enough to consider PHP a net social good
09:09:53 <kmc> it certainly could have that redeeming quality and still be way the hell better as a language
09:10:09 <Taneb> It's like Internet Explorer
09:17:24 <Patashu> 'could be written in Brainfuck'
09:17:31 <Patashu> if brainfuck had meaningful io mechanisms sure
09:18:45 <Taneb> itidus20, you're the only one who can do this.
09:20:39 <kmc> there's that thing https://github.com/ChickenProp/sysfuck
09:22:05 <itidus20> the first app would be like you input an id number followed by a space into the brainfuck interpreter.. and it would output the corresponding record in html format, or an error message if the record can't be found
09:22:30 <Patashu> yes, syscall should be enough
09:26:51 <Patashu> brainfuck can't even read to/write from files
09:27:18 <Patashu> (or at least, not without a different non-brainfuck program redirecting its input/output?)
09:27:50 <itidus20> im backing away slowly because i have no plans of writing any software in brainfuck
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10:34:13 <kmc> "OS X Terminal.app applies circumflex to part of escape sequence, then crashes."
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11:55:58 * NSQX thinks there is no quality anymore
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13:23:28 <ion> kmc: I take it much attention has been paid to things like never using the same block key more than once and preventing replay attacks?
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13:50:16 <ion> kmc: How about leaking information in the timing of the packets? IIRC someone was able to correlate the timing information in an audio recording of typing to what keys were pressed. I suppose ssh doesn’t do anything about that either.
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14:18:21 <kmc> ion, the block-cipher key is simply pulled from /dev/urandom by mosh-server at session start
14:18:40 <kmc> we're using OCB3, an integrated authenticated-encryption block cipher mode for AES
14:19:02 <kmc> which prevents tampering and replay attacks if used correctly (there is a mathematical proof of this)
14:19:12 <ion> An implementation by someone else i take it?
14:19:36 <kmc> yes, it's the reference implementation by Ted Krovetz
14:19:41 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/src/crypto/ocb.cc
14:20:01 <kmc> OCB is not too widely used though, so I am a bit worried
14:20:35 <kmc> i do think it's funny that "implemented by someone else" makes you feel better regardless of who that is ;)
14:21:11 <kmc> regarding "used correctly", a primary concern is that one must never use the same (key, nonce) pair more than once
14:21:37 <kmc> the nonce is a 63-bit counter initialized to zero at session start and incremented for each message sent
14:21:48 <kmc> the last bit distinguishes the two directions of communication
14:21:49 <ion> Well, i was thinking in the lines of a popular, reviewed-by-many implementation by someone else. :-)
14:22:18 <kmc> yeah, I don't think ocb.c is that popular or well-reviewed
14:22:51 <kmc> otoh, OCB provides authentication and encryption in one go, whereas if we combined a simple block cipher mode like CTR with a separate HMAC, there are arguably more places to screw up
14:23:05 <kmc> (we can chat in #mosh also)
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14:49:54 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
14:51:43 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
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15:08:48 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:08:52 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
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15:11:19 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:11:23 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 and it seems like I was the only one who created a new esoteric programming language today. What's up with the rest of the community recently?
15:11:27 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
15:11:30 <NSQX> !bf2 ''!dlroW olleH''"("X'>)"
15:11:53 <itidus20> although i'm not part of the esolang community and have never done anything eso-langy.. i just want you to know i'm reading your posts :-D
15:12:26 <itidus20> and the brainfunge2 wiki page looks nicely formatted
15:18:14 <itidus20> reading the brainfunge2 page got me thinking though just now
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15:43:03 <NSQX> KingOfKarlsruhe: Don't just join and say nothing. Say something or edit our sub-lime wiki, which has had few edits recently, at http://esolangs.org/
15:44:45 <NSQX> KingOfKarlsruhe: Read the most recent log of #esoteric ( http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10 ) or our sub-lime wiki's recent changes ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ) if you are unsure what to say.
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15:50:09 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages has not been updated for at least two weeks now.
15:50:39 <NSQX> The featured language has remained "///" for too long.
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15:52:44 <NSQX> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages has not been updated for at least two weeks now.
15:52:47 <NSQX> The featured language has remained "///" for too long.
15:52:56 <NSQX> What are the administrators waiting for?
15:53:10 <ais523> NSQX: we're only changing it once a month or so
15:53:30 <ais523> there isn't enough of a supply of languages to change it more often than that, and it can often take around a month to do interesting things with an esolang
15:54:44 <NSQX> Anyway, does anyone think http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFunge2 is good enough to be featured (except for one thing that does not match the criteria: implementation is possible but this language is not implemented)?
15:56:12 <ais523> no, it isn't interesting
15:56:35 <ais523> there are far too many 2D imperative languages
15:56:50 <ais523> (far too many 1D imperative languages too, btw)
16:00:21 <RocketJSquirrel> Well, it's not like being 2D and imperative disqualifies it, it merely doesn't qualify it.
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16:06:16 <elliott__> 00:36:52: <kmc> plenty of people appreciate FP and yet are annoyed by the people who think that incorporating crazy FP concepts is the only criterion for language goodness
16:06:17 <lambdabot> elliott__: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:06:29 <elliott__> Sometimes I get the feeling everything kmc says is a jab at me :P
16:06:39 <kmc> YES IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU
16:06:49 <kmc> i spend all day plotting my next jab at elliott__
16:07:01 <kmc> srsly I did not have anyone in mind when I said that
16:08:33 <kmc> maybe i should switch to a terminal that supports blurry fonts
16:11:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Wut, elliott FUCKING UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE has messages? Or does lambdabot not distinguish?
16:11:45 <elliott__> <lambdabot> ais523 said 1m 22d 23h 13m 26s ago: I bet you haven't used this nick for a while :)
16:11:50 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott__: Your new full name is now Elliott Fucking Underscore-Underscore, by the way.
16:11:55 <elliott__> i'm so popular, all my nicks get messagse
16:12:02 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I messaged elliott-double-underscore quite a while ago just to see if the message would ever be received
16:13:07 <elliott__> or does the "double" stand for "fucking underscore"
16:18:31 <ais523> hmm, a good esolang can take weeks or months to make
16:18:46 <ais523> e.g. Underload took months, and Feather is probably going to take years
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16:21:50 <elliott__> NSQX: you can use /cycle to part and rejoin quickly
16:21:50 <lambdabot> elliott__: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:26:57 <elliott__> kmc: how old is mosh in debian testing?
16:29:16 <kmc> http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/mosh says 1.1
16:29:19 <kmc> here's a changelog: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/blob/master/ChangeLog
16:29:58 <elliott__> thanks; looks like * Fixes bug causing occasional missing/extra wraparound copy-and-paste.
16:29:58 <elliott__> is the only thiing I might be missing out on
16:30:22 <elliott__> are there any advantages to mosh if my connection to the server has such low latency that I can't distinguish it from a local shell?
16:30:32 <elliott__> (I keep accidentally typing commands into ssh rather than a local terminal)
16:30:53 <elliott__> I guess the hieroglyphics thing counts
16:30:56 <elliott__> not too bothered about that though
16:32:32 <kmc> you could have a low latency connection with high packet loss, but it sounds like you don't
16:32:41 <kmc> there is also the roaming / suspend thing
16:32:54 <kmc> and the ^C spew thing
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16:33:01 <kmc> "Unlike SSH, mosh's UDP-based protocol handles packet loss gracefully, and sets the frame rate based on network conditions. Mosh doesn't fill up network buffers, so Control-C always works to halt a runaway process."
16:33:34 <kmc> but yeah, the main advantage is that Mosh works better on a) bad connections, and b) changing between connections
16:33:47 <kmc> or suspending your laptop
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16:34:11 <elliott__> the ^C spew thing annoys me, but I get problems with that locally, too
16:34:19 <elliott__> so I'm not sure it's the same thing(?)
16:34:22 <kmc> "With Mosh, you can put your laptop to sleep and wake it up later, keeping your connection intact. If your Internet connection drops, Mosh will warn you — but the connection resumes when network service comes back."
16:34:32 <elliott__> there were a lot of words on the page ok :(
16:34:48 <kmc> and i'm lazy so i quote them instead of explaining ;P
16:34:56 <elliott__> is there a way to explicitly suspend it and restart mosh later?
16:35:01 <kmc> it's not really the same as screen/tmux detach (you can of course use mosh together with screen/tmux)
16:35:07 <kmc> no, use screen/tmux for that
16:35:32 <kmc> i don't know that one, but ok
16:36:17 <elliott__> it just does detaching rather than tiling
16:36:37 <elliott__> this website triggers that annoying font problem :(
16:36:48 <elliott__> where text overlaps with other text but fixes itself if I change the font size up and down again
16:37:28 <kmc> mosh doesn't support detaching and reattaching sessions at all
16:37:54 <kmc> but it supports a) arbitrarily long periods of total packet loss, and b) client suddenly has a different IP
16:38:22 <kmc> not really
16:38:33 <elliott__> modulo local state, which can be stored on disk (I don't care about reattaching from another machine
16:38:48 <elliott__> heh, the AUR package is maintained by the trivium author
16:39:01 <kmc> if you have a mosh-client / mosh-server pair, and the client dies uncleanly (say because the machine dies)
16:39:06 <kmc> there is no way to reattach to that mosh-server
16:39:16 <kmc> not inconceivable we'd add one
16:39:26 <elliott__> oh, I don't care about unclean client dying either
16:39:42 <elliott__> my use for re-attaching is just starting a long-running process on the server and being able to check on it without having to keep a terminal open
16:40:09 <kmc> i think mosh by itself won't do that for you
16:40:26 <ais523> <freeballer> Buy a Kinect and create the world's first interpretive dance programming language.
16:40:47 <elliott__> kmc: yeah, but it could if it could store its local state and reload it later (which of course might be non-trivial)
16:40:48 <kmc> if you close the local terminal running mosh-client, it will shut down the client and therefore the whole session
16:42:24 <elliott__> Targets (2): boost-libs-1.49.0-1.1 boost-1.49.0-1.1
16:42:49 <kmc> we're only using a small amount of boost
16:42:54 <kmc> in fact i have a patch which removes it entirely
16:43:06 <elliott__> kmc: my understanding is that you're recommended to distrbute the parts of boost you use with your source
16:43:16 <elliott__> which avoids that kind of dependency :P
16:44:30 <kmc> i don't wanna
16:45:23 <elliott__> it clears the screen as soon as i start a connection :(
16:45:56 <kmc> you do not like this behavior?
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16:46:16 <elliott__> nope, though probably only because I'm used to ssh not doing that
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16:46:51 <elliott__> a good rule of thumb is to ignore all complaints i make for the first two days
16:47:37 <elliott__> is the fact that less seems to scroll through large amounts of text faster placebo?
16:49:19 <ais523> elliott__: less scrolls through large amounts of text faster per line than small amounts of text
16:49:27 <ais523> because it doesn't have to redraw the screen every line
16:50:13 <elliott__> ais523: I was using ^D/^U, so it's not that
16:50:20 <elliott__> but it definitely feels like it's lagging less than ssh doing that
16:50:48 <elliott__> "Watchlist editing has been improved so that broken or invalid titles now." I... see
16:51:44 <ais523> "We have taken steps to avoid a repeat of the situation where half the"
16:57:44 <elliott__> kmc: is it possible to use mosh locally without authentication?
16:57:53 <elliott__> the ^C spam stuff and garbage-display prevention sound useful
17:01:42 <ais523> is the idea when you're trying to interrupt a particular process in the instant it happens to be grabbing the terminal?
17:01:56 <ais523> probably might be better to have a key to SIGINT both the foreground process and its parent
17:06:52 <elliott__> ais523: "Mosh doesn't fill up network buffers, so Control-C always works to halt a runaway process."
17:06:56 <elliott__> I don't really know what that means though
17:07:18 <elliott__> is [<i>etc.</i>] or <i>[etc.]</i> correct?
17:08:10 <kmc> elliott__, not without authentication, but you can set up a mosh session by transports other than ssh
17:08:14 <kmc> including the "copy and paste" transport
17:08:33 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/#faq "Q: How do I run the mosh client and server separately?"
17:08:42 <ais523> elliott__: I prefer the former, but am not sure about correctness
17:09:10 <kmc> <elliott__> is the fact that less seems to scroll through large amounts of text faster placebo?
17:09:27 <kmc> ssh sends every byte in order; mosh just tries to update the client to the server's latest state
17:09:43 <elliott__> probably the screens aren't very alike, though
17:09:56 <kmc> if a packet is dropped in transit, and the server-side state has changed since the packet was sent, mosh won't retransmit that stale state
17:10:13 <kmc> it's really closer to a video streaming protocol than a reliable octet stream protocol :)
17:10:39 <elliott__> that copy-and-paste transport could work; seems like you could easily write a script to do it and use that as your shell
17:10:56 <kmc> you want this for the ^C thing or?
17:11:13 <kmc> i think that's a network-related feature only
17:11:24 <elliott__> well, I actually run into the messed-up-terminal thing every year or so :p
17:11:49 <elliott__> just seems like it could be worthwhile if it's strictly better at being a terminal than plain urxvt is
17:12:00 <elliott__> oh, I understand what the buffer thing means now
17:12:07 <elliott__> keys get sent immediately, rather than waiting for a network buffer
17:12:16 <elliott__> in fact, I skipped over "network" in "network buffer" the first two times i read it
17:12:24 <elliott__> clearly it should be in 72pt red impact and blink
17:13:32 <kmc> i'm not sure what you said is correct either
17:13:47 <kmc> the idea is just that mosh has an estimate of the network throughput, and will only send at that rate
17:13:58 <kmc> so it won't fill buffers along the way
17:14:07 <kmc> (it's common for e.g. home cable modems to have huge buffers)
17:14:34 <kmc> this way when you send a ^C, you don't have to wait for all the garbage ahead of it
17:14:52 <kmc> estimating throughput is something TCP is supposed to do as well
17:15:06 <kmc> but it's not very good and also people keep fucking with it in various ways
17:15:18 <kmc> KeithW's actual PhD research is on a new approach to TCP flow control
17:15:37 <kmc> where the endpoints have an explicit network model, and an explicit utility function, and act as bayesian optimizers wrt these
17:16:13 * elliott__ wonders if "<kmc> (it's common for e.g. home cable modems to have huge buffers)" is what bufferbloat is
17:17:20 <kmc> yeah that's what bufferbloat is
17:17:43 <kmc> you can sometimes improve your connection dramatically by throttling the input to the cable modem to be just below its speed
17:18:53 <kmc> a common scenario is trying to use ssh while downloading a file
17:19:02 <elliott__> does this apply to non-cable modems?
17:19:06 <kmc> the file fills up the buffer, ssh latency goes way up, TCP flow control on SSH starts to make bad decisions
17:19:28 <kmc> if there's enough bandwidth for the file xfer, then there's enough for file xfer plus a tiny bit for ssh
17:19:32 <kmc> it's just not being allocated effectively
17:19:53 <kmc> i don't know about buffer sizes on other devices
17:19:54 <kmc> i suspect so
17:20:12 <kmc> adding buffering/caching haphazardly is pretty much the #1 problem solving strategy in CS
17:22:59 <kmc> ADSL or... LSD-A?
17:24:43 <olsner> is that the french acronym?
17:24:49 <elliott__> It's our biggest national secret that all our internet lines are secretly being used to traffic... DRUG.
17:27:03 <elliott__> if it was, then the real acronym would be ASDL instead, if UTC is anything to go by
17:27:26 <elliott__> rly glad we didn't end up calling it CUT or TUC though
17:27:33 <olsner> wasn't UTC a compromise in that it was wrong in both languages?
17:34:56 <elliott__> "And it looks like Haskell sets its sockets to non-blocking mode by default. So if you try to read from one when there is no data, or try to write to one when its buffer is full, you will fail with EAGAIN.
17:34:56 <elliott__> Figure out how to change the sockets to blocking mode, and I bet you will solve your problem."
17:35:05 <elliott__> this sounds like an astonishingly bad idea wrt the IO manager
17:41:15 <olsner> but, shouldn't the IO manager be simulating blocking I/O for you?
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17:41:37 <olsner> or is someone sharing sockets between haskell and C code?
17:51:45 <elliott__> RocketJSquirrel: What's that file-usage thing you used on codu
18:08:33 <kmc> apparently on solaris, environment variables of running processes are world readable
18:08:38 <kmc> damn it, sun
18:09:35 <elliott__> that'll only be env variables set at run-time, though [standard comment about how amazed i am that environment variables DON'T REALLY EXIST]
18:10:01 <kmc> this is a problem for Mosh because we put the AES session key in an environment variable for mosh-client
18:10:05 <kmc> but we don't claim to support Solaris
18:10:16 <kmc> but I think a warning in README and the website is called for, anyway
18:10:28 <kmc> on Linux and OS X, env vars are only readable by the same user
18:10:40 <elliott__> kmc: what's wrong with just taking it as an option
18:10:41 <kmc> and I think FreeBSD as well but haven't checked
18:10:51 <kmc> command lines generally *are* world-readable
18:11:26 <kmc> yeah maybe
18:11:37 <elliott__> that would be more convenient for copy-pasting too since you can just select the whole line :p
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18:26:06 <elliott__> ais523: help me think of a name that translates to unix account name "root" with as many different formats as possible
18:26:22 <ais523> elliott__: what exactly do you mean by that?
18:26:23 <elliott__> Root O* O* T* seems like a decent start
18:26:52 <elliott__> ais523: a name that will cause as many organisations as possible to want to assign me the Unix username "root" per policy
18:27:21 <elliott__> hmm, Root O* O* T* breaks <first name><last initial> and <first initial><last name> and <last name><first initial>
18:27:24 <ais523> although you'd be rroot under several patterns then
18:27:30 <ais523> it also breaks <last name>
18:27:31 <elliott__> ais523: nope, that's rroot or rootr
18:27:38 <ais523> and <initials><random number>
18:27:45 <elliott__> for Root O* O* T*, I was going for whatever produced "ais"
18:27:54 <elliott__> as well as "first name", which I guess is uncommon in large organisations
18:28:18 <elliott__> I bet they only use one middle name, anyway
18:28:21 <ais523> the university of birmingham naming scheme that produced ais523 would make that rot123 or whatever, it only takes one middle name
18:28:31 <olsner> where I work, root root would get either rroot or rootr
18:28:55 <ais523> also, requires at least one middle name, they use X as a placeholder if there isn't one
18:29:14 <elliott__> ais523: if only I was the thirteenth rot
18:29:17 <ais523> I'm not sure which order the initials come in for family-name-first name patterns
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18:29:29 <exh> -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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18:29:37 <ais523> you forgot the digits!
18:29:48 <elliott__> ais523: do they use digits if you're the only one?
18:29:52 <elliott__> I doubt there's another exh at birmingham
18:30:00 <ais523> and there almost certainly is
18:30:17 <ais523> there are over a million people who have been named
18:30:34 <ais523> almost certainly, at least one had forename starting e, surname starting h, no middle name
18:31:01 <elliott__> hmm, how old is your account system?
18:31:11 <elliott__> do you really have over a million Unix accounts?
18:31:38 <ais523> they're mostly Active Directory
18:32:00 <ais523> and no, they're deleted after 4 years, so it's over a million that have existed at any point in time
18:32:06 <ais523> not over a million simultaneously
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18:32:17 <elliott__> do they reserve previously-used names?
18:32:44 <elliott__> (and is that after four years of no use, or four years full stop?)
18:32:46 <ais523> I don't know; I know they have to be reserved for at least two years, and it'd make sense to reserve them longer
18:32:55 <monqy> 11:18:09 < elliott__> hi monqy
18:32:57 <monqy> did you read the logs
18:32:58 <ais523> imagine if someone else got ais523@bham.ac.uk
18:33:05 <monqy> specifically the parts with nsqx
18:33:08 <ais523> they'd get so many irrelevant messages…
18:33:10 <monqy> I promised him I'd make you read that!
18:33:32 <ais523> and it's after four years altogether, except that if you're still using it for university-related purposes, it's deleted a year after you stop instead
18:33:43 <ais523> I've had ais523@bham.ac.uk for around 7 years by now
18:33:48 <elliott__> monqy: yes, NSQX helpfully linked me to them
18:34:08 <elliott__> ais523: they shouldn't delete accounts :(
18:34:10 <ais523> although it's actually a redirect nowadays (I won't mention what it's a redirect to, as the spambots haven't found it yet), and I forge it as the from address when I send
18:35:12 <elliott__> Would a Java programmer gain much from learning about monads? (self.haskell)
18:35:28 <elliott__> why are you posting this to /r/haskell!!!
18:35:32 <ais523> they'd gain a bit, but not much
18:36:03 <ais523> and it's because Haskellers have been forced into the position of Internet Monad Consultants
18:36:58 <elliott__> ais523: at least we can help you turn your international network of international networks into just an international network
18:37:10 <elliott__> and turn your single node into an international network
18:37:33 <elliott__> and help you transform an international network for one purpose into an international network for another, if you can tell us how to turn a node for one purpose into a node for another purpose
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18:39:51 <zzo38> You are now the international network monad?
18:40:57 <ais523> now we need a Consultant monad
18:41:13 <ais523> hmm, given that consulting things is almost a sensible thing for a monad to do, it could almost be useful
18:43:51 <monqy> wow nsqx really spammed up the logs there
18:44:28 <ais523> oh dear, monqy is being unusually lucid, it must be a very serious situation
18:44:45 <elliott__> monqy is always lucid, people just don't usually realise it
18:44:59 <elliott__> ok that was before he got corrupted by the hi brigade :(
18:46:21 <elliott__> "i agree that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings"
18:46:43 <Sgeo> Since when did nsqx become official channel greater?
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18:47:24 <elliott__> "Don't just join and say nothing." some greeting
18:47:43 <Sgeo> Meh, I'm just bothered by greeting someone without even making sure they know it's the right kind of esoteric
18:47:55 <Sgeo> erm, which kind of esoteric
18:48:19 <elliott__> dude KingOfKarlsruhe idles here constantly
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18:48:55 * Sgeo crawls into a hole
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18:50:58 <zzo38> Is (Cofree Maybe) like non-empty list?
18:53:09 <elliott__> KingOfKarlsruhe: You don't have to say anything.
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19:00:52 <monqy> top of the morning
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19:01:26 <nortti> ?! There will be no more relases of Linux 2.4
19:02:55 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:07:52 <elliott__> nortti: I have no idea why this shocks you.
19:08:15 <elliott__> 2.6 came out in 2003. 3 came out in 2011.
19:08:33 <nortti> It has been updated for over 11 years
19:08:41 <elliott__> Yeah, but it's also two major versions old and has been out-of-date for 9 years :P
19:08:57 <elliott__> I admit, it would be funny if they maintained 2.4 forever.
19:09:40 <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm
19:11:09 <nortti> well maybe soneone starts supporting linux 2.4 same way as libc4
19:11:41 <elliott__> nortti: That guy is the only guy crazy and/or stupidly stubborn enough to do that, and he's on 2.0.28 :P
19:12:11 <nortti> really? That's just insane
19:13:08 <Ngevd> ...my screen just beeped
19:13:19 <elliott__> nortti: Well, his distro was last updated in 2002... and was intended to be ~retro~ even then.
19:16:34 <zzo38> In case we have something, like LogicT, but instead there is also a comonad included (forall r. (a -> w (m r) -> m r) -> w (m r) -> m r) It is still a codensity monad too
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19:49:19 <RocketJSquirrel> `addquote <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
19:50:30 <HackEgo> 826) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
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19:55:07 <oerjan> <olsner> kmc: far far = 50 million light years
19:55:23 <elliott__> whats sqrt(50 million light years)
19:55:39 <oerjan> i _was_ speaking about M87 or whatever it was.
19:55:58 <olsner> I thought you were talking about jedis
19:56:08 <oerjan> i didn't bring up those
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19:56:42 <zzo38> What will be the square root of a unit of distance?
19:56:56 <oerjan> itidus20 asked if M87 was the galaxy of the jedis.
19:58:31 <olsner> zzo38: I guess it will be something with the unit distance^½, something that you can square to get a distance
19:58:53 <zzo38> olsner: I know that... it isn't what I meant by the question
19:59:03 <olsner> elliott__: I don't know!
19:59:32 <oerjan> elliott__: the unit for dimension 1/2 hausdorff measure, at least
20:00:20 <elliott__> http://i.imgur.com/XDDoQ.jpg this is the best notice i have ever seen
20:02:32 <shachaf> I have the feeling something should be done about people who check in lines with trailing whitespace.
20:02:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; what should be done is, notify them.
20:03:02 <elliott__> shachaf: "git diff" with colouring makes them all horrible and red.
20:03:36 <shachaf> zzo38: I was thinking along the lines of something lingering with boiling oil in it.
20:06:04 <oklopol> you are so beautiful as a collective irc entity
20:08:03 <olsner> elliott__: they might have forgotten to turn on colored diffs, if that isn't the default
20:08:09 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:10:33 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:11:34 <oerjan> are you saying he looks buggy?
20:12:09 <Ngevd> This is a poor connection rather than a bug
20:12:41 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:12:57 <shachaf> THAT PUN WAS WORSE THAN A LIME. SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
20:12:58 <oerjan> thank you. although you'd think gregor would be more in danger
20:13:05 <shachaf> elliott__: Today I need to do things again.
20:15:19 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:16:14 <elliott__> I'm not sure if shachaf knows that there is (snicker) a...."cabal" of mods here who seem to want to whitewash haskell's shortcomings?
20:16:32 <oerjan> monqy: darn you're good
20:17:05 <oerjan> oh also hi elliott__ and olsner
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20:19:32 <elliott__> Is oerjan calling me an iodicy? :(
20:19:48 <elliott__> Also, why is oerjan hiing everybody?
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20:30:53 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today <ion> In a smoking rubble? <Taneb> Close. <Taneb> Heathrow Airport
20:31:10 -!- Case1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:31:11 <HackEgo> 827) <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today <ion> In a smoking rubble? <Taneb> Close. <Taneb> Heathrow Airport
20:40:24 <shachaf> elliott__: I don't know that.
20:46:19 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan__.
20:46:29 -!- oerjan__ has changed nick to oerjan.
20:47:23 <oerjan> 16:18:31: <ais523> hmm, a good esolang can take weeks or months to make
20:47:24 <oerjan> 16:18:46: <ais523> e.g. Underload took months, and Feather is probably going to take years
20:47:32 <oerjan> otoh /// probably didn't take too long :P
20:48:17 <oerjan> 16:12:54: <elliott__> ais523: you misspelled my name!
20:48:17 <oerjan> 16:13:07: <elliott__> or does the "double" stand for "fucking underscore"
20:48:29 <oerjan> no no, ais523 is simply unable to say "fucking"
20:59:16 <oerjan> WE THOUGHT WE'D LOST YOU
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21:29:18 <oklopol> toi took 5 minutes and it's the best.
21:31:39 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/texts-from-hillary-clinton_n_1415551.html
21:31:59 <Sgeo> Now, if only we could hear from her regarding whether the accusations she insulted Agora Nomic are true or not.
21:35:59 <Sgeo> Hey, it's not like I'm taking medical advice from there
21:36:37 <elliott__> ok i admit the fact that hillary clinton has made a submission to a joke tumblr is pretty hilarious
21:36:42 <monqy> how to live long and a good life, by the huffing ton post dot com
21:37:20 <monqy> shachaf: drat I can't think of a good greeting uhh
21:37:31 <shachaf> monqy: I know a good greeting.
21:38:15 <monqy> for maximal greeting efficiency, I presume
21:38:29 <monqy> I sure wish I knew your wonder greeting!
21:39:42 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott__ is Tue Apr 10 22:40:10
21:40:29 <monqy> shachaf: happy april 10
21:41:52 <elliott__> hahahaha i think tr0lltherapy downvoted me
21:42:17 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
21:42:41 <monqy> is tr0lltherapy a tr0ll
21:43:51 -!- derdon has joined.
21:44:06 <elliott__> oerjan: kick monqy, this is an intervention, it's for his own good
21:44:06 <shachaf> Come on, "your royal hiness" merits a "hi".
21:44:39 <shachaf> monqy: Just say a sentence that contains "hi".
21:44:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:44:55 <elliott__> monqy: quick put "hi" into another word
21:45:06 <elliott__> like "boy shachaf must be high if he thinks i'm going to say that word"
21:45:11 <monqy> I can't think of any good words!
21:45:36 <monqy> shachaf: something
21:46:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:46:08 <shachaf> monqy: Now say "somet hi ng"
21:46:19 <monqy> I can't do this (that)
21:46:49 <elliott__> shachaf: you're at BAD influence!!!
21:47:03 <shachaf> monqy: Good, now you're injecting "hi"s ungrammatically.
21:47:49 <oerjan> monqy: try "shalom", that should freak shachaf out
21:48:00 <elliott__> oerjan: HOW CAN YOU JUST STAND BY AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN
21:48:21 <monqy> shachaf: are you freaked out
21:48:41 <shachaf> Maybe you'll never be good enough... Unless you say hi.
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21:49:17 <shachaf> What have you become, monqy?
21:49:35 <shachaf> monqy: Can you manage a "hej"?
21:50:31 <shachaf> You've withstood The Ultimate Hi Challenge.
21:51:24 <shachaf> I like to relax by writing poems.
21:51:38 <shachaf> Can you write a poem, monqy?
21:51:58 <monqy> poetry is for people who say "hi"
21:52:41 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
21:54:03 <shachaf> monqy: Here's a poem: http://poemsbyshelsilverstein.blogspot.com/2009/01/poem-by-shel-silverstein-pg-127.html
21:54:25 <shachaf> elliott__: Do they have Shel Silverstein in Hexham?
21:54:32 <monqy> what a friendly monster
21:55:43 <shachaf> Show the channel how friendly you are.
21:56:04 <monqy> should I buy them flowers
21:56:14 <shachaf> monqy: Do what the hi monster would do.
21:56:24 <elliott__> the hi monster is known for never saying hi
21:56:27 <monqy> should I go through the mist
21:56:33 <monqy> should I have a tail
21:56:39 <oerjan> <monqy> no hi <-- oh dear. oh dear oh dear oh dear.
21:56:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:56:51 <shachaf> The hi monster is known for saying hi to *everyone*.
21:56:55 <elliott__> it's good to talk about your past addictions
21:57:18 <shachaf> The first thing you say in hi anonymous is...
21:57:24 <shachaf> "hi, my name is monqy. hi.
21:57:37 <elliott__> "it's the middle of the night why haven't i slept"
21:58:12 <shachaf> Or you can say one word which means all of those and more.
21:59:22 <Sgeo> But hello is so many letters
21:59:39 <oerjan> monqy: you can use "yo"
21:59:45 <shachaf> "hello" is on the road to "hell"
21:59:50 <oerjan> that doesn't have too many letters
21:59:53 <shachaf> "hi" is on the road to "hi heaven"
22:00:06 <monqy> I dunno about this
22:00:09 <monqy> it doesn't have the right feeling
22:00:21 <monqy> it just doesn't feel right
22:00:26 <elliott__> once an addict always an addict (unless you try really hard and don't give in to peer pressure)
22:00:30 <Sgeo> I still don't have a Yo-God God Detector
22:00:32 <elliott__> shhh monqy you don't need that kind of bad influence in your life
22:00:36 <shachaf> Don't give in to beer pressure!
22:00:47 <shachaf> monqy: elliott__ suggets in /msg that I should stop tempting you.
22:01:09 <elliott__> I just told him what he already knew.
22:01:55 <elliott__> "My question is answered and problem solved by someone that does not even know Haskell, with surgical precision! Anyway the link above now contains a working splice implementation that will find its way to Hackage after polish up."
22:02:04 <Sgeo> elliott__, linky?
22:02:07 <elliott__> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/s1kcd/need_help_implementing_zero_kerneluser_space_copy/
22:03:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:03:25 <shachaf> monqy: After saying "yo" you have to say "dawg".
22:03:56 <monqy> I don't think I can do that
22:04:05 <monqy> honestly if that's what it comes to
22:04:08 <monqy> I'd rather just say hi
22:04:22 <Sgeo> That seems more like a Linux question than a Haskell question
22:04:33 <shachaf> "yo dawg" is many times more potent than "hi".
22:05:11 <Sgeo> yo dawg, I herd you like to greet so I put a greet in your greet so you can greet while you greet. hhii
22:05:33 -!- augur has joined.
22:05:45 <monqy> I would have said "sgeo: hi" but I'm over that
22:06:06 <shachaf> monqy: Say "sgeo: yo dawg"
22:06:23 <monqy> someone kick shachaf
22:06:46 <Sgeo> (incf shachef)
22:07:03 <shachaf> elliott__: The right answer is to use the I/O manager for non-blocking sockets?
22:07:10 <elliott__> The right answer is what bos said.
22:07:13 <shachaf> Those are precious karma points.
22:07:24 <elliott__> Esp. since EAGAIN can happen on blocking sockets too.
22:07:25 <Sgeo> (incf shachef 5)
22:07:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
22:07:37 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma- karma-all
22:08:13 <Sgeo> Hey, monqy said it!
22:08:53 <shachaf> "what -- what am I -- hi -- hi monqy!"
22:11:12 <Sgeo> @karma elliott
22:12:01 <Sgeo> If monqy decremented me once and I now have karma of 0, I must have had karma of one at some point
22:12:39 <shachaf> Oh, I'm thinking of preflex.
22:12:52 <shachaf> elliott__: Why did you decrement my karma. :-(
22:14:29 <shachaf> I am in the top 10 karmahavers in lambdabot's database.
22:14:40 <Sgeo> > text "hi monqy"
22:15:56 <elliott__> Deewiant: lambdabot has an override
22:16:40 <monqy> rest peacefully, notepad's karma
22:16:42 <elliott__> that's a good amount of karma for notepad
22:16:56 <shachaf> It has some other cases too.
22:17:38 <shachaf> The empty string has an exemption.
22:18:08 <shachaf> elliott__: I still need to do the thing.
22:19:38 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott.
22:19:42 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott__.
22:19:59 <elliott__> that's kind of ruined with the nick change
22:20:37 <Sgeo> @karma++ @karma++
22:20:39 <shachaf> elliott__: Why did you change your nick? :-(
22:20:59 <shachaf> elliott__: I mean the __s.
22:21:01 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
22:21:01 <Sgeo> @karma+ @karma
22:21:08 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
22:21:22 <shachaf> Looks like "@karma+ shachaf" doesn't change anything.
22:21:55 <Sgeo> @karma- shachef
22:21:58 <elliott__> shachaf: So that my nick wouldn't be elliott.
22:22:16 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:22:38 <shachaf> I mean, shachef++ -- dances
22:22:46 <shachaf> shachef++ -- looks up the weather
22:22:46 <Sgeo> And today I learned that I don't know how to spell shachaf
22:23:01 <Sgeo> I used to play with BONZI Buddy
22:23:11 <Sgeo> ...I am now feeling nostalgic for spyware. Fun.
22:23:21 <shachaf> elliott__: Where's that portrait?
22:23:35 <elliott__> i mean that's a pretty big coincidence
22:23:45 <elliott__> http://ompldr.org/vZDhvag/shachef.png
22:24:02 <shachaf> I didn't say he hadn't seen it.
22:24:12 <elliott__> but <Sgeo> And today I learned that I don't know how to spell shachaf
22:24:28 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
22:24:54 <shachaf> shachef++ -- spins a globe
22:24:57 <Sgeo> I remember listening to BONZI Buddy's facts while eating triscuits
22:24:59 <shachaf> shachef++ -- eats a banana
22:25:35 <shachaf> elliott__ wants you to get a taste of POWER
22:26:02 <shachaf> People who think they can't make mistakes.
22:26:09 <shachaf> And so they write code badly.
22:27:18 <kmc> just sympathizing
22:27:24 <kmc> also i wonder if i am one of these people
22:27:31 <kmc> but that's probably generic insecurity
22:27:54 <Mathnerd314> they should be writing *compilers* for code
22:28:06 <monqy> I want to say hi again
22:29:20 <shachaf> kmc: You seem to have the reasonable mindset of "make mistakes impossible to make". At least as far as security etc. are concerned.
22:29:43 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think being good at writing secure code and being good at finding security bugs are particularly correlated with each other?
22:31:35 <elliott__> i think the former is probably impossible without the latter, but that the latter doesn't necessarily imply the former
22:31:44 <elliott__> but i'm pulling this out of my anus, so to speak
22:32:25 <kmc> i agree with all of what elliott__ just said :)
22:32:47 <elliott__> like if you look at a lot of exploits they're kind of horrible code
22:33:00 <kmc> exploits are the best code :D
22:33:16 <elliott__> which i think fits stereotypically into the "unprofessional but determined self-taught tinkering" kind of view of someone who finds security exploits
22:33:24 <kmc> shachaf, people ask me "are you worried about the security of Mosh" and I'm like "... I'll never not be worried about the security of Mosh"
22:33:41 <elliott__> and which wouldn't fill me with confidence wrt writing secure code
22:34:10 <shachaf> "unprofessional but determined self-taught tinkering" isn't necessarily a bad way to learn to write secure code.
22:34:20 <shachaf> Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "unprofessional".
22:34:36 <elliott__> i mean "unprofessional" in the (unfair) sense of "sloppy"
22:34:52 <shachaf> So you're saying that if someone is sloppy, their programs will have bugs?
22:35:04 <elliott__> i think if someone's code is sloppy it's more likely to have bugs
22:35:43 <elliott__> i get the feeling you're making some kind of point here
22:35:47 <shachaf> I doubt you'll find anyone who'll really disagree.
22:37:31 <elliott__> Mathnerd314: why did you post those terrible slides :'(
22:37:59 <Mathnerd314> elliott__: because otherwise you wouldn't know about them
22:38:41 <elliott__> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Why-Programmers-Should-Use-the-Haskell-Language-Now-669827/
22:39:18 <shachaf> Sloppy code is probably the most annoying thing.
22:39:34 <elliott__> i like sloppy code! it's just crap is all
22:39:51 <shachaf> I usually get annoyed at it and then tell myself that I'm probably getting too annoyed.
22:41:06 <shachaf> There are different adjectives one can use to describe _why's code (and _why).
22:41:54 <elliott__> i think you'll find he'd have readily adopted "sloppy" (possibly he did)
22:42:09 <shachaf> elliott__: Wow, those slides. :-(
22:42:28 <monqy> should I look at these slides
22:43:23 <elliott__> shachaf: apparently they're dumbed-down summaries of slides from someone else's talk
22:43:42 <shachaf> elliott__: I like the DSL slide.
22:44:11 <shachaf> "Homomorphic encryption is a form of encryption where a specific algebraic operation performed on the plaintext is equivalent to another (possibly different) algebraic operation performed on the ciphertext. Adams-Moran said Haskell is good for implementing homomorphic encryption, particularly in protecting data in the cloud—where users want to store only encrypted data in the cloud. Searches and queries work over encrypted data, yielding
22:44:37 <elliott__> Anyway, apparently the talk goes into much more detail about their actual homomorphic encryption work.
22:45:07 <Sgeo> Great. "Abstraction". Without any details into what that's like from a Haskell perspective
22:45:15 <Sgeo> Are ANY of these slides about Haskell specifically?
22:45:20 <shachaf> Are you suggesting these slides aren't good?
22:45:37 <monqy> wow these slides are the worst
22:45:52 <shachaf> elliott__: I didn't realize homomorphic encryption actually worked.
22:46:05 <shachaf> For, you know, actual things.
22:46:40 <elliott__> shachaf: "For example, we don't claim to have solved fully homomorphic encryption, but I can see how you may have gotten that impression from the eweek slides. We're part of a team exploring ways of bringing FHE closer to practicality. The example in the talk is about a different kind of shared computation (and I did a poor job of explaining it)."
22:48:55 <elliott__> shachaf: I love the part where everything starts with "Adams-Moran said", though.
22:49:10 <shachaf> I love the part where the slides are bad.
22:50:46 <elliott__> monqy: Can you help me figure out how Hugs works?
22:51:10 <monqy> I've neither used nor seen hugs, ever
22:52:16 <elliott__> cabal-dev install --hugs --with-cpphs="$(which cpphs-hugs)" --hugs-options="-98 +o" --hugs-option=-F'cpp -P -traditional' -fslow
23:03:39 <oerjan> > var $ cycle "Haskell is "
23:03:40 <lambdabot> Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell is Haskell i...
23:03:52 <elliott__> Wow, this Wikipedia user deflects the need to actually cite their statements by using edit summaries like "THIS IS ALL TRUE" and "VERIFIABLE".
23:03:53 <fungot> shachaf: honey buns! it's darn near as i can figure us out? that way, if i got any emails?!
23:10:55 <Sgeo> elliott__, linky?
23:13:27 <elliott__> Sgeo: That would be, like, unfair!
23:13:37 <elliott__> ...Okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pdiddyjr
23:13:55 <monqy> (I have good reason to edit this)
23:13:59 <monqy> (Once again, I am editing this with good reason)
23:18:49 <Sgeo> Anyone here used channel.me ?
23:18:57 <Sgeo> Although I don't know why I'm asking here
23:19:16 <elliott__> why are you asking (out of curiosity)
23:19:24 <elliott__> (once again i am asking this with good reason)
23:19:42 <Sgeo> I'm curious about opinions
23:20:53 <elliott__> Sgeo: what i meant was "are you considering using it & if so why"
23:21:32 <Sgeo> I've been playing around with it and because it's fun
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23:24:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: The XY Problem Channel | Do you like rotating mazes? Do you like the other idea? | I do not like rotating mazes. I do not like them Mr. Z. I do not like them in a tree. I do not like them in the fog, I do not like them on a log. I do not like rot' maze, you see, I prefer my lab'rinth's normalcy. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:26:25 <monqy> I looked it up and
23:26:32 <monqy> playing around with it? with whom?
23:26:38 <monqy> don't you need other people to channel.me
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23:27:36 <monqy> sorry I'm just a bit surprised is all
23:28:12 <monqy> also I notice sub-lime is out of the chanserv welcome message :(
23:28:17 <monqy> is this because of nsqx
23:28:32 <oerjan> SO THEY CLAIM, THE BASTARDS
23:28:51 <Sgeo> monqy, there is a person...
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23:58:08 <elliott__> shachaf: Did you know "vi /proc/self/maps" works?