00:08:10 <Sgeo> :( there's no Shockwave player for Linux :(
00:10:17 <calamari> what is /proc/self/maps telling me?
00:10:44 <shachaf> elliott__: Why shouldn't it?
00:11:29 <calamari> aha... "/proc/PID/maps, the memory map showing which addresses currently visible to that process are mapped to which regions in RAM or to files."
00:13:19 <Sgeo> elliott__, I want to play iSketch
00:14:23 <elliott__> shachaf: Because vim is written in C. C isn't homoiconic!
00:15:50 <zzo38> What does homoiconic mean?
00:17:07 <elliott__> When an icon and an icon love each other very much... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity
00:19:25 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can get Shockwave on WINE
00:21:32 <monqy> I occasionally see it
00:22:03 <elliott__> monqy: are you sure that's shockwave, not flas
00:22:37 <monqy> maybe it's silverlight?
00:23:55 <Sgeo> Why does WINE cause my mouse to stop clicking?
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00:27:09 <elliott__> "He maintains that his poetry portrays visually the drift and swirl of the things themselves and the interconnected chiaroscuro of shadowy essence and shimmering everydayness.[10]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_W._Robertson
00:30:08 <Sgeo> According to XScreenSaver, something already grabbed the pointer
00:30:19 <Sgeo> How do I find it and kill it?
00:30:55 * elliott__ doesn't know, but bets there's no way to
00:31:03 <monqy> have you tried restarting your computer
00:31:29 <Sgeo> But I don't want to
00:33:00 <elliott__> http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/pageviews/2012/04/springfield-oregon-matt-groening-announces-location-of-%E2%80%9Cthe-simpsons%E2%80%9D
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00:34:02 <elliott__> does that mean they're going to stop making the simpsons (please say yes)
00:34:23 <monqy> Here’s to another 25 years in Springfield, Oregon.
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00:35:31 <monqy> is your problem fixed
00:37:50 <shachaf> elliott__: It's the POWER OF UNIX.
00:39:37 <Sgeo> monqy, yes, but not as comfortably as if I didn't have to turn it off and on again.
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01:22:41 <shachaf> elliott__: But it uses W->(a,W), therefore it's by definition bad!
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02:33:18 <RocketJSquirrel> "If the time difference from home and the lab are different by like 10 seconds, does that mean my program for some reason runs differently at home?"
02:35:06 <RocketJSquirrel> I can only deal with so much stupidity in my day to day life.
02:35:14 <RocketJSquirrel> Then I have to stop. And just admire it. Like an art form.
02:39:20 <monqy> I almost didn't notice
02:39:25 <monqy> thanks for the warning
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02:58:34 <kmc> i don't understand the context of that question enough to say whether it's stupid
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03:35:23 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvgKX2uVRy0 ah nostalgia
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03:50:24 <monqy> shachaf: not even in here, either
03:50:37 <shachaf> I just said "Hello, sir."!
03:50:50 <monqy> is this a new trick
03:51:24 <shachaf> Are you going to say hello?
03:52:20 <shachaf> monqy: You should come visit.
03:52:34 <monqy> where? silly valley?
03:53:05 <monqy> but that's over there and I'm over here
03:53:31 <shachaf> You should come over there.
03:54:49 <monqy> I don't travel much
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04:16:52 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
04:17:04 <HackEgo> MONQY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
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04:54:02 <monqy> hello im back from being away (not here)
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05:12:52 <zzo38> If you cannot believe six impossible things then you cannot have good imagination
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05:24:30 <elliott> @tell elliott Try the parameter-for-each-method style of unsafeCoerce dictionary-passing.
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05:24:38 <elliott_> @tell elliott Try the parameter-for-each-method style of unsafeCoerce dictionary-passing.
05:25:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, what if I believe I have written a program to determine whether an arbitrary Turing machine halts or not, and that my program always halts and gives the correct answer.
05:25:55 <elliott_> that's only one impossible thing sorry!!!
05:26:26 <Sgeo> What if I believe I'm smarter than elliott_?
05:26:31 <Sgeo> Does that count as impossible?
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05:44:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: I suppose it does count as impossible, but it isn't what I meant.
05:44:20 <zzo38> (I mean the program to solve the halting problem, not whether you are smarter than elliott_)
05:44:48 <zzo38> (I meant that is what counts as impossible; not that is what I meant by the original statement!)
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06:05:35 <shachaf> kmc: Thanks to http://acm.wustl.edu/functional/haskell.php , I now know the steps to learning Haskell! Syntax, Commonly Used Functions & Basic Programming Techniques, Laziness, Types, Monads, I/O, Advanced Stuff and Further Reading
06:06:57 <kmc> http://blog.masterbranch.com/post/20813500731/open-source-projects-ranked-by-awesomeness
06:07:21 <kmc> finally someone has made an awesome ranking of awesome kick-ass hacker awesomeness
06:07:50 <shachaf> Wow, someone has figured out at last that awesomeness is the criterion to rank projects by.
06:08:37 <kmc> it's only natural that the top 10 projects are 7 ruby libraries, jquery-mobile, and a package manager for OS X
06:08:40 <shachaf> I had the idea ages ago but I'm glad someone else figured it out.
06:08:53 <kmc> these are the most awesome kick-ass hacker projects of awesomeness
06:09:05 <kmc> linux and gcc just aren't awesome
06:09:28 <shachaf> Apparently the awesomeness of a project is calculated from the awesomeness of its developers.
06:09:33 <kmc> you can tell they're not awesome because the developers don't sound like retarded children
06:10:04 <shachaf> And the awesomeness of a developer is calculated from the awesomeness of other people who Like and Follow them.
06:10:14 <pikhq> Clearly rails is the awesomest thing.
06:10:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Not as much as docrails!
06:10:33 <kmc> shachaf, did you see the several people on HN who were congratulating themselves (in apparent seriousness) that their hipster startup web-design aesthetic had rubbed off on the tragically un-stylish academics who developed Mosh?
06:10:44 <pikhq> Rails is so awesome its documentation is twice-awesome.
06:11:42 <shachaf> kmc: Well, it says "Make it look like a fake startup company" right on the front page.
06:11:54 <kmc> yeah I think the joke went over a few heads :)
06:13:46 <kmc> i think Keith is correct that "awesome" is a term of art in the Ruby / web community
06:13:49 <shachaf> There's a talk tomorrow: «Everyone interested in math is invited. Sander Kuper will be giving a talk on "Space-filling curves and the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem"»
06:14:21 <kmc> but I don't know what it means
06:14:24 <kmc> for all I know these 7 ruby libraries really are the most awesome software
06:16:00 <kmc> linux might be useful software but it's certainly not Awesome
06:16:06 <kmc> i mean, it's below the drupal layer
06:16:09 <kmc> who even needs to think about that
06:16:36 <kmc> shachaf, I don't know enough topology to appreciate the statement of the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem :/
06:16:43 <shachaf> kmc: Just looked for the comment you mentioned and found http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3821776 , for what it's wroth.
06:16:45 <kmc> much less its proof or implicatios
06:17:13 <kmc> we did list IO::Pty somewhere
06:17:18 <kmc> but not on mosh.mit.edu
06:17:43 <kmc> i also like that "a github page with somebody's vim configuration" is more Awesome than vim
06:17:57 <kmc> i mean it's really obvious how
06:18:07 <kmc> vim isn't written in Ruby, but this config might be a config for writing Ruby
06:19:16 <kmc> every time I read hacker news it makes me embarrassed about the fact that someone might apply the "hacker" label to me
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06:20:52 <shachaf> You'd rather have http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html applied to you?
06:21:09 <shachaf> There should be an Internet "What Kind of Hacker Are You" quiz.
06:21:19 <shachaf> Are you more of an "ESR Hacker" or a "PG Hacker"?
06:21:26 <shachaf> It's an important question.
06:21:44 <kmc> i tend to rage against them as more or less interchangeable groups
06:21:46 <kmc> maybe this is inaccurate
06:22:08 <kmc> ESR writes crap code and is obsessed with dick-measuring and self-promotion
06:22:21 <kmc> that trait seems to be shared with the HN crowd
06:23:21 <kmc> i think the hacker mythos that PG advances for business reasons is the same one ESR advances for whatever reason he has
06:24:15 <kmc> both camps are obsessed with drawing a line between Us and Them
06:24:58 <kmc> and PG will try to convince you that the only way to prove you're one of Us is to work for PG for under minimum wage for a summer
06:28:45 <shachaf> http://www.sh4un.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/broadcastip.gif
06:30:46 <shachaf> Apparently https://github.com/rubyspec/rubyspec is a spec?
06:31:11 <kmc> an awesome spec
06:31:36 <shachaf> I thought specs were supposed to be more general than unit tests.
06:32:16 <kmc> obviously you aren't an awesome kick-ass hacker
06:32:26 <olsner> afaict, a spec is what you get when you run unit tests and format the output in a particular way
06:32:53 <shachaf> kmc: How do I become one. :-(
06:32:53 <olsner> well, maybe not "unit" tests, but a bunch of tests
06:33:34 <kmc> it looks like the tests are annotated with text which together forms more of a conventional language spec
06:33:51 <kmc> it's like a language spec with examples built in, and a way to check all the examples against your implementation
06:34:09 <kmc> is this use of the word "spec" also a Ruby term of art?
06:34:23 <shachaf> Though I wouldn't call it an "executable spec".
06:34:46 <shachaf> Apparently it is: http://rspec.info/
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06:36:29 <kmc> you're just splitting hairs because you aren't awesome enough
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06:46:26 <shachaf> kmc: BayHac is next weekend!
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07:42:09 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, maybe you don't need to decode the instruction.
07:42:12 <shachaf> Just look at the state of the page before and after.
07:42:14 <shachaf> That would be even worse efficiency-wise, of course. :-)
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08:12:48 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently libgpm handles xterm events too.
08:13:18 <shachaf> But gpm the mouse server doesn't handle xterm escape codes.
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08:22:01 <Ngevd> What's your favourite esoteric programming language?
08:23:59 <Ngevd> I prefer brainfuckonballones
08:25:58 <monqy> my balones are cold air only please
08:26:47 <monqy> hot air makes them uncomfortable, and uncomfortable balonnes means uncomfortable monqy
08:27:18 <atlantan> you cant have monqy unless you're uncomfortable yourself
08:28:26 <atlantan> hot air balloons do manage comfortably
08:28:39 <atlantan> seven times seven equals eight
08:28:59 <monqy> maybe it is comfortably for you, but have you considered the balonnes?
08:29:44 <monqy> balones always belong, i am afraid and sorry both
08:29:58 <monqy> shachaf: welcome to conversation
08:30:01 <atlantan> riding air bubbles belongs in the train station
08:30:57 <atlantan> it's an academic anomaly in space time travel
08:31:02 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
08:31:35 <shachaf> monqy: Remember when you used to say hi?
08:32:07 <monqy> I'll relive the experience tonight, hi
08:32:51 <monqy> today was a bad day to try kicking that habit
08:32:56 <monqy> because tonight it is a party
08:33:19 <shachaf> You can kick the habit another day.
08:34:21 <atlantan> you guys have got an escapism plague going
08:35:06 <monqy> I'm too tired for poetry
08:35:19 <monqy> maybe I should sleep
08:35:38 <shachaf> monqy has other addictions
08:35:42 <itidus20> maybe if shachaf suggests it to him he will
08:38:14 <itidus20> monqy: if the hi's haunt you.. you can give them up again soon
08:38:27 <shachaf> Giving up hi is easy. I've done it hundreds of time.
08:38:32 <atlantan> hello budgy cantella max rules per porridge
08:39:00 <monqy> what if I'm hooked on hi
08:39:06 <monqy> what if i never escape
08:39:34 <shachaf> Many people lead a normal life even with hi
08:39:52 <itidus20> monqy: it's not true.. they are secretly haunted by the hi
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08:41:03 <atlantan> hi is a sky equation and it roots itself in humanity
08:47:18 <atlantan> subjectivist microbes do relay interference
08:49:33 <itidus20> sir, it appears you have a thought disorder
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08:50:50 <atlantan> im a good cunt man dont be a bitch
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09:19:09 <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators?
09:19:17 <qfr> Who just lurk without @
09:19:23 <qfr> Waiting to pounce?
09:20:27 <atlantan> i wonder if theres anyone here who wants to talk
09:21:48 <qfr> You have the ability to make people not want to talk
09:22:14 <qfr> It might be related to your average sentence reading like it's straight out of Finnegan's Wake
09:22:42 <atlantan> my hat does turn backwards occasionally
09:24:07 <qfr> You would love it
09:24:12 <qfr> It's just like you
09:24:48 <atlantan> are dragons claws allowed in here?
09:26:39 <qfr> Homosexuals are welcome
09:26:41 <qfr> Dragons are not
09:26:43 <qfr> Sorry mate
09:27:40 <atlantan> sorry mate but you braze too many waters
09:33:50 <atlantan> are there any other esoterica chats you could recommend
09:41:47 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, did you know that in addition to \e[? Pm h and Pm l, you can Pm s to save and Pm r to restore?
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11:42:26 <atlantan> pythagoras theorom is really a quilt
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13:53:36 <ais523> oh btw, this is one of the more awesome TDWTF threads I've seen in a while: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/25919/285908.aspx#285908
13:54:53 <ais523> (summary: someone at White Castle was turning straws round to have a "this end up" sign at the top; turns out that they have a "this end up" sign on /both/ ends, but only on one side, and they were turning over just the straws where the sign wasn't visible because the straw was facing the wrong way)
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13:55:01 <ais523> there's at least two layers of WTF there
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13:57:25 <RocketJSquirrel> I like how the guy didn't even mention the WTF that is printing "this end up" on both ends, just about flipping it 'round the wrong axis.
13:57:53 <ais523> presumably there's a limit to how much stupidity can be perceived in a short period of time
13:58:13 <ais523> also, it's snoofle, he has to deal with huge amounts of stupidity at his day job too (and gets paid a lot for it)
13:58:19 <ais523> (which is why he still does it, I think)
14:02:12 <RocketJSquirrel> Note with velocity 64 + expression 127 has the same amplitude during sustain as a note with velocity 127 + expression 64. I have learned this by careful measurement, since the actual relationship is unspecified. And it's true for all values of velocity and expression. EXCEPT when the expression changes too fast, then it seems to just make up shit.
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15:28:04 <ais523> wow, I've found a website that mostly works fine without JS, except that it has a <noscript> tag that covers up the entire content area, deliberately, and prevents any links working
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15:31:53 <ais523> and works fine for me if I just firebug away the tag (adblock doesn't seem capable of getting rid of them)
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15:52:20 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:07:54 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I think I've found an STM-related statement we can *all* agree is idiotic.
16:07:59 <elliott> "It seems locks are more composable than STM."
16:11:24 <elliott> "@jmg: I've read through that paper before, and I'm not really sure about the logic. If I have a function f that has a transaction that runs for 0.01 seconds for 0.00001 seconds, and another function g that has a transaction that uses the same TVar that runs every 10 seconds for 0.1 seconds, I can't compose the two, f will "lock out" g. I could compose the two using locks however (although, f would be slightly delayed at times). It seems locks ar
16:11:24 <elliott> e more composable than STM. – Clinton 9 hours ago"
16:11:24 <elliott> I think they have no idea what locks /or/ STM are :P
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16:11:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Your DMS likes to die.
16:11:54 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: It's just ping-based, so if Codu hiccups, it fires.
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16:12:29 <RocketJSquirrel> log(playedVelocity)+log(expression) = log(desiredVelocity)+log(64/127) \ expression = e^(log(desiredVelocity) + log(64/127) - log(playedVelocity))
16:12:34 <elliott> OK, this STM guy keeps asking a billion questions about the minutiae of various concurrency abstractions in Haskell >_>
16:12:39 <RocketJSquirrel> Now, what can VERY CLEVER people tell me about simplifying that last equation?
16:12:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Something about having e raised to the power of a bunch of logs summed?
16:12:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: That sure is math!
16:13:11 <elliott> Wolfram|Alpha doesn't understand your query
16:13:11 <elliott> Showing instead result for query: log log log
16:13:39 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: HAY IS IT 64d/127p
16:13:45 <elliott> (Turns out W|A hates multi-letter variable names :P)
16:14:03 <elliott> Those are, like, powers of two.
16:14:05 <RocketJSquirrel> The e^ and logs cancel out (and promote + and - into * and /), making the whole thing retarded.
16:14:53 <RocketJSquirrel> "After running the program nearly half hour,it finally finished without segfault.but the computer became really slow,30 seconds for terminal 30seconds for closing a tab in browser, do you restart your computer every time after execute it. I gotta restart now"
16:14:59 <RocketJSquirrel> "No, we don't restart our computers after running the program. Students run their programs all the time in the lab and the machine never need to be rebooted."
16:15:06 <RocketJSquirrel> "I wish I bought one of those powerful machines instead of this wreck"
16:15:11 <RocketJSquirrel> "It doesn't have to do with the computer. It has to do with your code."
16:15:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: No matter how stupid your STM guy is, this student is more so.
16:17:33 <elliott> That guy isn't smart enough to come out with the real gems like "It seems locks are more composable than STM.".
16:18:46 <RocketJSquirrel> In the last day, he's claimed that strncpy doesn't work, diff doesn't work, that the performance numbers we presented are 60 times less than what's actually possible, and that his code works even though it crashes after 30 minutes of chewing through all the memory.
16:19:47 <elliott> Well, he's right. strncpy and diff don't work, because they're C, and Unix.
16:21:06 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Hey, I hate Haskell and STM.
16:24:17 <elliott> The internet is too small.
16:24:34 <elliott> No, really. The internet is too small.
16:26:57 <elliott> It's not the IP addresses, it's the graph!
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16:41:02 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 11 17:41:31
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16:46:32 <zzo38> Are account number and branch numbers on cheques have checksums?
16:49:16 <RocketJSquirrel> My guess would be that the barcode does (as part of its barcode encoding) but the actual numbers do not. Just a guess though.
16:49:56 <zzo38> The cheques I have do not include a barcode
16:50:18 <elliott> My cheques are plastic and have magnetic strips on them and they're called credit cards
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16:56:05 <RocketJSquirrel> "And I'd like to contribute [...] my erotic fiction starring Midshipman First Class James Port, 'Hard To Port'." — Utahraptor
17:06:46 <elliott> "It makes no sense to say min USA Canada or USA < Canada."
17:06:56 <elliott> UM CLEARLY IT DOES AND THE ANSWER IS "NO"
17:07:59 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: So where's the JS implementation of my language?
17:08:19 <oklofok> he thought stars are planets
17:09:02 <oklofok> and seemed to have a worse english vocabulary than me
17:10:43 <oklofok> (although probably more reliable in everyday life)
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17:31:14 <elliott> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:C-INTERCAL may interest you
17:31:42 <ais523> elliott: I saw that, and didn't join in because I wasn't sure
17:31:48 <ais523> I'd say it's both an impl, and a language described by that impl
17:35:48 <elliott> grr, why don't browsers have search-and-replace functionality in textboxes?
17:39:44 <elliott> ais523: why didn't you tell me :'(
17:43:26 <elliott> hey, CLC has an esolang account
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17:55:51 <elliott> "[1][2][citation needed]" --Wikipedia
17:58:32 <Sgeo> "Wikipedia" --Wikipedia
18:00:41 <elliott> ais523: did you know the inventor of Lazy K invented HuffYUV?
18:02:24 <elliott> ais523: hey, this might interest you: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/not-not-ml/index.htm
18:02:33 <elliott> (from the same guy, +spj, +some other guy nobody cares about)
18:03:13 * elliott starts to clean up http://esolangs.org/wiki/UglyBF, realises the only possible benefit to the world that would cause is to increase his own edit count
18:03:52 <ais523> elliott: indeed, it might, but is not something I think I can get my head around right now
18:03:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hcbf&diff=prev&oldid=1152 what a great article
18:04:02 <elliott> before cpressey ruined it with "style"
18:04:23 <elliott> "IL's type system includes negation (continuations), but not implication (function arrow)." -- oh, that's really beautiful
18:06:54 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:07:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Inflection err, what a mess
18:08:37 <elliott> I'm not even sure what to do with that; put a stub description of inflection-the-natlang-concept on the article and move the existing contents to the talk page?
18:11:56 <elliott> ais523: hey, should paper titles be in italics? I forget
18:12:43 <ais523> they aren't normally, IIRC, but I'm not sure
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18:14:45 * elliott expands http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
18:17:08 <elliott> @tell oerjan Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
18:17:13 <elliott> @tell oerjan Wait, that was meant to be @ask.
18:17:15 <elliott> @ask oerjan Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
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18:21:11 <RocketJSquirrel> @tell elliott Does it really make that big of a difference?
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18:29:25 <Sgeo> Die! is totally a question.
18:29:48 <Sgeo> I am totally oblivious to context sometimes.
18:29:51 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:29:58 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel said 8m 46s ago: Does it really make that big of a difference?
18:29:58 <lambdabot> RocketJSquirrel asked 8m 41s ago: I'm sure people will figure it out.
18:31:25 * Sgeo throws a cube with markings on each face at RocketJSquirrel
18:32:18 <Sgeo> What's Dylan Grillin?
18:32:36 <Sgeo> (Ok, I have a weird chain of thought)
18:32:43 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: both, with unrelated content
18:33:34 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UivcJ2VdhfA
18:36:16 * Sgeo is clearly easily amused
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18:38:35 <elliott> the interwiki links on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould look really ugly now, right? (might have to force-reload)
18:38:35 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:42:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's ugly, yes?
18:42:12 <elliott> (I just need support so that oerjan doesn't accuse me of bias :P)
18:42:59 <RocketJSquirrel> It would be nice if it were ... uhh, different in virtually any way. It's kind of at a local minima of yuck.
18:43:16 <Sgeo> Haskell is not not ML, apparently.
18:43:55 <elliott> Yes, Sgeo, that is indeed a direct quote from the page I linked.
18:45:05 <elliott> "A Recipe for controlling Lego using Lava" There is no way this article cannot be awesome.
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18:47:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Lava will be some lame and obscure uninteresting programming language.
18:48:43 <Sgeo> The most uninteresting languages are the least obscure, surely?
18:48:45 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I even know what Lava is there.
18:49:00 <Sgeo> .....Oh, Lava probably is NOT a synonym for Java
18:49:07 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It's a functional hardware specification DSL.
18:49:17 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: CONTROLLING LEGO WITH IT: STILL AWESOME???
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18:56:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: How did camel-case get invented?
18:56:19 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Is this a bad joke or do you have somethingAgainstCamelCase?
18:56:36 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Yes, I hate it. :(
18:56:51 <Sgeo> http://nonadventures.com/no-nad.html
18:58:24 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *underscores, phillistine.
18:58:38 <Sgeo> http://www.neuticles.com/ this actually exists
18:58:59 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: I have a tendency to use underscores for namespacing, and camel case for everything else.
18:59:29 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: [People who use languages without namespacing.]
19:00:24 * elliott 's preference goes something like hyphen-ation > under_scores > lowerCamelCase > UpperCamelCase > mushedtogether
19:01:48 <ion> elliott: I must admit the “underscores for hierarchy and camelCase for everything else” style is used very nicely with Haskell QuickCheck, even though i don’t like camelCase very much either.
19:02:04 <elliott> ion: Yeah, I'm OK with prop_fooBar.
19:02:19 <elliott> I mean, really it should just be fooBar.
19:02:31 <RocketJSquirrel> Anyway, I couldn't be rocket_j_squirrel because that goes over the nick length limit.
19:02:49 <elliott> Oh, lowerCamelCase has a significant problem:
19:03:03 <ion> prop_transmogrifyTribbles_withNoTribbles, prop_transmogrifyTribbles_withManyTribbles
19:03:08 <RocketJSquirrel> I would agree that that's a problem, but argue with your definition of "significant"
19:03:11 <elliott> And all variants of camel-case have the Http vs. HTTP problem; latter one jumbles word boundaries, former one is hideous.
19:03:29 <ion> And some programs may even format the output as an equivalent tree.
19:03:46 <ion> • transmogrifyTribbles:
19:03:47 <Sgeo> Just use - in names >.>
19:03:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Well, none of this really *matters*. It's significant as far as problems with word-smashing schemes go.
19:03:48 <nortti> I tend to use i_something_like_this on variable names andSomethigLikeThis() on function names
19:03:54 <ion> • withNoTribbles: OK
19:03:56 <elliott> Sgeo: * elliott 's preference goes something like hyphen-ation > under_scores > lowerCamelCase > UpperCamelCase > mushedtogether
19:03:59 <ion> • withManyTribbles: FAIL
19:04:00 <elliott> nortti: No, that's the worst.
19:04:13 <elliott> That's horrible and bad and promotes a silly dichotomy.
19:04:24 <elliott> In fact it's practically Hungarian notation restricted to only one type.
19:04:37 <ion> nortti: ಠ_ಠ
19:04:46 <RocketJSquirrel> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/humidity ← look, it's code I'm publishing that is almost entirely unusable by anyone but myself. It is perhaps the most niche code I've ever written 8-D
19:05:13 <elliott> FINALLY we can humidity with computers.
19:05:22 <elliott> Wait, is that a MIDI thing?
19:05:32 <elliott> I thought it would, like, predict the humidity in your area or something.
19:05:56 <RocketJSquirrel> Sorry, the name's a portmanteau of "human", "midi" and "timidity".
19:06:28 <nortti> elliott: i_ on the start is int, c_ is char, s_ is string, ia_ is in array etc.
19:06:58 <ion> elliott: Predict? That’s boring. Control the humidity!
19:08:19 <Sgeo> timidity already contains midi
19:08:48 <nortti> what naming style should I use if my current one is the worst?
19:09:14 <ion> By definition of “the worst”, anything else. :-P
19:10:14 <elliott> <nortti> elliott: i_ on the start is int, c_ is char, s_ is string, ia_ is in array etc.
19:10:34 <elliott> See, I said it was practically Hungarian notation restricted to only one type.
19:10:37 <elliott> But you're actually using systems Hungarian.
19:10:43 <elliott> That isn't even what Hungarian notation was _designed_ to be.
19:10:57 <elliott> (cf. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html)
19:11:13 <elliott> Congrats, you use a /perversion/ of the second-worst naming convention ever devised :P
19:11:35 <ais523> what's the first-worst?
19:11:57 <elliott> ais523: The one nortti is using.
19:12:07 <elliott> By definition, a perversion of the second-worst naming convention is pretty much gonna have to be the worst.
19:13:04 <nortti> I use type prefixes because they are very convinient when using assembly
19:14:26 <Sgeo> Wait, what's wrong with Joel's conception of Hungarian notation?
19:14:56 <ais523> elliott: I have used systems hungarian before, but there were too mitigating factors: a) everyone else does in that language too, b) I frequently had several variables referring to the same thing but with different types
19:14:56 <Sgeo> That you're calling it second-worst, I mean
19:15:15 <ais523> basically because the language wanted to be OO but wasn't
19:15:41 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not Joel's, it's Simonyi's.
19:16:14 <elliott> Sgeo: And it's second-worst because, while the perverted form is simply being redundant with your type system, the non-perverted form is working around your insufficient type system.
19:16:26 <elliott> tainted_foo -> foo :: Unsafe String
19:16:30 <elliott> safe_foo -> foo :: Safe String
19:17:07 <Sgeo> But in a language where that's necessary, how is that bad?
19:17:22 <Sgeo> It's a bad sign for the language, but not of the scheme itself, isn't it?
19:18:01 <elliott> Anything specifically designed to awkwardly kludge around the arbitrary limits of a tool is pretty much destined to be terrible.
19:18:47 <nortti> well you can't really add type system to x86-16 assembly
19:21:26 <elliott> gah, when did other-extensions appear...
19:30:12 <zzo38> Do you think (Codensity Endo) is a list monad?
19:30:48 <zzo38> I made up a version of Codensity based on Plus and a Plus that does not require Functor, and it seems to act like it
19:34:57 <elliott> <Sawny> haskell feels like brainfuck
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19:36:38 <dbelange> #haskell and #esoteric should be merged
19:38:08 <shachaf> kmc: I thought I would write a wrapper that translated GPM events to Xterm-style events.
19:38:22 <zzo38> Do you know about codensity?
19:38:29 <kmc> dbelange++
19:38:37 <shachaf> So now *I'm* reading about termios.
19:38:47 <kmc> itt: another person who thinks brainfuck is the most insane possible programming language
19:39:00 <Zuu> dbelange++++++
19:39:05 <shachaf> This is a deep and dark rabbit-like-creature hole.
19:39:09 <elliott> it FUCKED my BRAIN "L O LROFLe"!!!
19:40:04 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the monqy gave in?
19:40:08 <shachaf> You weren't there for him. :-(
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19:41:13 <Zuu> I was wondering, does this channel ever talk about something unrelated to haskell, or rather, does it ever talk about any of the less functionally oriented approaches, and/or practical stuff?
19:42:18 <Zuu> i've often scrolled by the window (lurked here a lot), but i dont recall ever seeing anything i would fi?nd interresting.
19:42:19 <dbelange> you can write a big long line that computes primes
19:42:23 <zzo38> Zuu: This channel discuss various things, whether it is related to Haskell or not
19:42:27 <elliott> yes, we talk about things that aren't haskell
19:42:32 <zzo38> View the logs if you want; find many things
19:42:34 <Zuu> zzo38: but does it really?
19:42:38 <elliott> i'm not sure why you'd think we'd talk about practical things in here given the channel name and purpose though
19:42:47 <zzo38> Zuu: Does it really, what?
19:42:52 <elliott> wait aren't you that guy who was wrong about C once and I decided to hold an everlasting grudge against you forevermore because of it
19:42:56 <elliott> i gotta take these things seriously
19:42:59 <elliott> 06:21:19: <shachaf> Are you more of an "ESR Hacker" or a "PG Hacker"?
19:43:09 <elliott> shachaf: is there a third option where i'm e.g. a dead rat or something, that would be preferable
19:43:16 <zzo38> What is a "ESR Hacker" and "PG Hacker"?
19:43:37 <Zuu> zzo38: but does it really? [... context inserted for your convenience ...] discuss various things, whether it is related to Haskell
19:43:46 <Zuu> ... or not
19:44:03 * elliott has no idea what Zuu's question is any more.
19:44:05 <zzo38> Zuu: Yes view the logs. We discuss many things, practical or not, Haskell or not, English or not...
19:44:34 <shachaf> elliott: I don't like how you quote me out of context like that.
19:44:39 <shachaf> It makes it look like I'm serious.
19:44:40 <Zuu> zzo38: ok, if i really have to pull up months old logs to find such, i take that it's a rare occation.
19:44:51 <kmc> <elliott> shachaf: is there a third option where i'm e.g. a dead rat or something, that would be preferable
19:45:05 <elliott> Zuu: see, we were just talking about dead rats
19:45:23 <Zuu> ok, i take that as a no then.
19:45:24 <kmc> #haskell often talks about the less functionally oriented approaches
19:45:35 <kmc> lots of Haskell code is not written in functional style
19:45:39 <zzo38> We have discussed food, computer game, Pokemon card, science, mathematics, esoteric programming, C programming, astrology, religion, spoken languages, dead rats, jokes, philosophy, and much more.......
19:46:07 <kmc> Zuu, #esoteric is nominally about esoteric programming languages: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:46:17 <zzo38> kmc: Is mine (see dvi-processing) written in functional style, or not?
19:46:26 <Zuu> kmc: yeah that's what i tohught as well, thats just not what i've seen.
19:46:26 <elliott> it's not like haskell is even discussed that often in here, it's mostly idiots in #haskell ;)
19:46:34 <zzo38> Zuu: Yes, esoteric programming languages is the main topic of this channel, but we are not on this topic much
19:46:43 <elliott> Zuu: do you have a question/complaint/suggestion I honestly have no idea
19:46:49 <kmc> yeah, #esoteric is often used for snarking about #haskell
19:46:55 <lambdabot> fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (fox (...
19:47:02 <kmc> to clarify, when I say "lots of Haskell code is not written in functional style" i mean this is a good thing
19:47:12 <kmc> despite what you read on the internet, Haskell is a practical, multiparadigm language
19:47:18 <elliott> 09:19:09: <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators?
19:47:18 <elliott> 09:19:17: <qfr> Who just lurk without @
19:47:22 <elliott> qfr: You're not meant to have @ on freenode.
19:47:36 <shachaf> elliott: You're not meant to have @ in this universe.
19:47:36 <kmc> in fact I love imperative programming in Haskell because I still get abstraction, good types, great compiler
19:47:37 <Zuu> zzo38: back to my point, the topic seems to be mostly about haskell and or other higly functional approaches. So, let me ask it stih way, at what times of the week, are you mostly discussing other kinds of languages?
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19:47:42 <zzo38> kmc: I never said it wasn't a good thing. I was asking a different question
19:47:44 <kmc> these things don't magically become worthless once you have state
19:47:46 <elliott> OTOH it looks like no op was online at the time.
19:47:48 <kmc> i thought some people might have
19:47:55 <elliott> Zuu: we don't have a schedule
19:48:02 <zzo38> Zuu: I do not think there is a consistent regularity in it
19:48:04 <elliott> new esolangs rarely come up
19:48:11 <kmc> when I was in #haskell i was always arguing with fanatics who want you to feel dirty for using an IORef ever
19:48:13 <elliott> when there isn't much interesting new esolang stuff it reverts to off-topic nonsense
19:48:26 <elliott> which often involves haskell because some of the regulars here like haskell
19:48:36 <elliott> kmc: you're still indirectly snarking at me!!!
19:48:52 <kmc> elliott, you're still paranoid
19:49:07 <elliott> <timthelion> c_wraith: there are many legal problems with GPL. <timthelion> the most obvious one, is the question "who has copyright?" does every single person who ever added a line of code have copyright? That would make GPL quite the same as public domain. Or do the various contributors have to agree upon themselves in a democratic maner on comercial use? that would make it like a worldwide democracy, since there's no rule that you cannot e
19:49:07 <elliott> dit the source and fork...
19:49:28 -!- augur has joined.
19:49:29 <kmc> what what what what what
19:49:32 <Zuu> great, i just had to confirm that i could part this channel without insulting my interrest in programming languages.
19:49:37 <kmc> head into desk repeatedly
19:49:47 <elliott> Zuu: don't let the door hit you on the way out
19:49:57 <zzo38> Zuu: But if you have questions about anything at all just ask; it is about as relevant as anything else that goes on in this channel
19:50:00 <shachaf> kmc: You know you want to join #haskell and argue with that.
19:50:04 <elliott> gah i still can't remember if you're the person who was wrong about C :(
19:50:06 <shachaf> It's just a few keystrokes away...
19:50:07 <elliott> i'm terrible at managing my grudges
19:50:17 <kmc> elliott, you need a GrudgeDB
19:50:19 <elliott> kmc: did you know that BSD is also "almost public domain"
19:50:29 <Zuu> zzo38: why do i need to ahve questions?
19:50:32 <kmc> massively replicated Post-SQL cloud database
19:50:36 <kmc> for keeping grudges
19:50:44 <zzo38> Zuu: You don't need to have questions. You can have answers instead if you prefer
19:51:02 <shachaf> kmc: An efficient implementation of elliott's GrudgeDB is (const True)
19:51:14 <Zuu> i just liked to talk with likeminded, on an even playing field, but it seems that theres none of that here.
19:51:20 <elliott> non-haskell talk today: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#000810Sgeo http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#060535shachaf http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-11#135336ais523
19:51:38 * Zuu leaves, letting the door hit elliott
19:51:49 <elliott> non-haskell talk yesterday: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#025713zzo38 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#061801 http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#085550ion ...
19:52:01 -!- Zuu has left (" byes").
19:52:09 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, why are you linking to non-Haskell talk in #esoteric again?
19:52:13 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#132328ion http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-10#144906 [...]
19:52:17 <elliott> shachaf: 'cuz Zuu is a moron.
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19:56:02 <elliott> If only you didn't have to be Wile E. Coyote (Super Genious) to program in Haskell. Ok, that may over-state the case just a little but not much. I've been admiring the concept of Haskell for something like 7 years and keeping up on the news and have done a few basic tutorials but once we get much past the inevitable Fibonacci example I am quickly lost. I hope the epiphany will come to me, some day. Until then python will have to do. And that's a
19:56:03 <elliott> shame because I work in info-sec and have some ideas for useful code that might work great in Haskell. I especially like the idea of implementing parsers and certain AI concepts in Haskell. I'll probably do them in python first and then jump to Haskell if I need the speed boost of a compiled language, if my skills ever get up to it.
19:57:34 <shachaf> Good luck learning Haskell, elliott.
19:57:57 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i will never leant it, because i am not able to think in the functional way
19:58:32 <shachaf> The Functional Way is a way few are able to master.
19:59:02 <elliott> The best part of my quotes is when people think I said them because I don't use quote marks.
19:59:37 <shachaf> elliott: I think that was pretty clearly recognizable as not you.
19:59:54 <elliott> Only to people who know what I sound like (i.e. annoying).
20:02:23 <nortti> Whic one should I use in my hobby OS: microkernel or monolithic kernel
20:03:19 <zzo38> I don't know much about your hobby OS to answer
20:03:35 <MDude> Instead of jsut having user mode and kernal mode, create a special semi-kernel mode.
20:03:40 <ion> Both are a bit too good choices. Perhaps you could find a horrible bastardization of either one.
20:04:52 <zzo38> I like Haskell but prefer Ibtlfmm. But tell me do you think dvi-processing is programmed in a functional style or not?
20:05:11 <nortti> MDude: how would semi-kernel mode work? Would it be like rings 1 and 2 on x86-32
20:06:35 <MDude> I'll need to learn more about what kernel mode is other than "where memory management goes".
20:06:51 <zzo38> Well, I am also designing the computer, it has no operating system or kernel; it does have BIOS but most of the functions don't use the BIOS they use direct access.
20:07:15 <MDude> Are you designing the hardware?
20:07:31 <MDude> Oh wait I guess that's what you just said.
20:07:56 <nortti> zzo38: I am statring my hobby OS development from scratch because last one didn't really like multitasking
20:07:58 <zzo38> Yes I design the hardware; not entirely by myself but I am doing it mostly myself.
20:09:16 <shachaf> kmc: Mosh doesn't underline the space left after it deletes characters. Is that considered a bug?
20:09:21 <MDude> Learn what a microkernel does, and build that into the hardware.
20:09:29 <shachaf> (Its prediction does the wrong thing in irssi sometimes.)
20:10:10 <zzo38> How do I build a microkernel into a hardware?
20:10:44 <zzo38> You can make Constant functor Alternative by defining <|> the same as <*>
20:11:23 <kmc> shachaf, I don't know
20:11:29 <zzo38> And I have proposed other way to define instances for Free and Cofree
20:11:34 <kmc> you should ask KeithW if he considers that a bug
20:12:44 <nortti> MDude: microkernel does memory managment, task switching and message passing
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20:13:25 <zzo38> Now we have actlike: Maybe = Free Finalize; Cont x = Codensity (Constant x); [] = Codensity Endo; Tree = Cofree []; Either x = Free (Constant x); Writer = Cofree (Constant x); ...
20:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: I added an icon to Wikipedia links; everyone* cried at the hideousness; I removed it.
20:13:58 <zzo38> Are these correct? Are there any others too?
20:14:25 * oerjan swats RocketJSquirrel -----###
20:14:26 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:14:28 <shachaf> elliott: You ought to golf your regexps. s/.$//
20:14:50 <oerjan> <elliott> (I just need support so that oerjan doesn't accuse me of bias :P) <-- YOU ARE ALL BIASED
20:15:03 <elliott> oerjan: It was really ugly though.
20:15:05 <elliott> I'll put it back up so you can see.
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 58m 16s ago: Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 58m 11s ago: Wait, that was meant to be @ask.
20:15:26 <lambdabot> elliott asked 1h 58m 9s ago: Hey, what's up with "cont fix"? What *is* with that term? What does it *mean*?
20:15:31 <elliott> oerjan: Force-reload http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould to observe the ugly.
20:15:48 <zzo38> shachaf: I know what it is, but I don't know if there is any other type like that in the available libraries.
20:16:41 <MDude> nortti: I'm looking up those things to see if I can make it seem plausible to do them all in hardware.
20:16:42 <oerjan> elliott: erm, i'd imagine it would be better if blue like the link, and superscripted
20:17:00 <elliott> oerjan: Bluing it would almost certainly violate the trademark policy.
20:18:44 <elliott> oerjan: Okay, done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
20:18:46 <elliott> Still ugly if you ask me :P
20:18:53 <elliott> (And barely looks like the WP logo any more.)
20:19:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Free [] is the datastructure that can have a single value or list where the list elements can also have sublists and so on
20:20:47 <oerjan> elliott: oh well. it ought to have a similar style to the other icons...
20:20:59 <shachaf> zzo38: I know what it is, just not another name for it or an idea of why it would be particularly interesting.
20:21:21 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I don't know the other name for it either
20:22:05 <elliott> oerjan: This might be better: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ben_Rudiak-Gould
20:22:09 <elliott> Still not a fan, though >_>
20:22:21 <oerjan> elliott: btw it's a weird way to protect your trademark to make links to you look almost indistinguishable to internal links in your open source software ;P
20:22:43 <elliott> what does *that* have to do with trademarks?
20:22:56 <zzo38> Non-empty list = Cofree Maybe
20:23:50 <shachaf> List = Maybe :. Cofree Maybe
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<$) :: Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Control.Applicative (<$) :: Functor f => a -> f b -> f a
20:26:57 <lambdabot> Data.Functor (<$>) :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
20:28:39 <elliott> oerjan: how do you use two modules at once in hugs
20:28:51 <zzo38> Identity = Free Initialize
20:29:44 <zzo38> Identity = Cofree Finalize
20:30:12 <oerjan> elliott: you have to make a module importing both
20:30:58 <elliott> Data.Semigroup> Sum 42 <> Sum 43
20:31:19 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
20:37:31 <zzo38> I don't know what (Codensity []) would be, though.
20:41:51 <oerjan> elliott: also wtf do you see "cont fix"
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20:43:51 <oerjan> elliott: your @message
20:45:15 <oerjan> elliott: how can i know what "cont fix" means if i don't know any context.
20:46:05 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
20:46:15 <elliott> modulo the transformer identity crap
20:46:18 <elliott> > evalCont $ do { xs <- cont fix; return (():xs) }
20:46:24 <elliott> > flip runCont id $ do { xs <- cont fix; return (():xs) }
20:46:25 <lambdabot> [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()...
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20:48:43 <zzo38> There is also Codensity
20:49:48 <oerjan> hm given a continuation, it applies it to the final result
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20:50:20 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
20:50:29 <oerjan> giving the final result
20:51:21 <elliott> Right, it lets you access the final result of any CPS'd computation.
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20:58:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> There's a talk tomorrow: «Everyone interested in math is invited. Sander Kuper will be giving a talk on "Space-filling curves and the Hahn-Mazurkiewicz theorem"»
20:59:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Should I go?
20:59:55 <elliott> (oerjan's lastn ame is Mazurkiewicz)
21:00:52 <oerjan> no, but i recall that theorem from our work on topological measures.
21:01:37 <oerjan> i suppose it may not be as cool if you don't know about (and need) local connectedness.
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21:08:47 <elliott> "Reverting my edits, unless you're me, requires broad consenus" --Wikipedia edit summary
21:09:42 <oerjan> <atlantan> kia ora bro im a maori <-- worst palindrome ever.
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21:10:25 <elliott> There seems to be an uptick of morons with a fondness for racial slurs in here lately.
21:11:15 <oerjan> <qfr> Does this channel have any actual operators? <-- occasionally.
21:12:27 <ion> Plus and greater-than have been seen here every now and then.
21:12:38 <oerjan> oklofok: a guy from a sunken continent
21:13:38 <oklofok> ah well those georgians are all a bunch of fucking bigots
21:13:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, it's in 2 hours.
21:14:11 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it works with my other scheduled appointment of the day, though.
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21:15:04 <elliott> kmc: Is it just me, or does mosh take longer to connect than ssh?
21:15:44 <shachaf> elliott: Makes sense, since there's at least one extra round-trip.
21:16:08 <elliott> This is time before it asks for my privkey password.
21:16:31 * oerjan does a demotivating meditation
21:16:34 <shachaf> elliott: That makes less sense because as far as I know all it does it run mosh-server on the server.
21:16:55 <oerjan> I DON'T NEED TO COMPETE WITH ELLIOTT - AUM - I DON'T NEED TO COMPETE WITH ELLIOTT
21:16:56 <elliott> shachaf: I have a placebo. :(
21:18:00 <ion> Apparently less scary than #haskell, since kmc is only on #mosh.
21:24:51 <elliott> The asteroid that killed the dinosaurs must have ejected billions of tons of life-bearing rock into space. Now physicists have calculated what must have happened to it. (technologyreview.com)
21:25:01 <elliott> If this doesn't end with "all the dinosaurs are chilling in space somewhere" I am done with science.
21:25:26 * oerjan looks at yearcats and become uneasy because "before 1993" is last
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21:26:05 <elliott> oerjan: erm yearcats has always been there
21:26:08 <elliott> i just separated it out into a template
21:26:13 <elliott> I originally had before 1993 first
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21:46:43 <elliott> oerjan: if you don't want to remove info, better readd their email address too
21:47:48 <elliott> from this mess http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Hcbf&oldid=1152
21:48:02 <oerjan> i did look at his last edit
21:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&diff=prev&oldid=1122 at least they can alphabetise
21:48:43 <elliott> wow, the language list was so small back then
21:49:19 <elliott> Esoteric programming languages on Wikipedia is currently more complete, although it also has a lot of rubbish, and much of the interesting stuff isn't notable enough for their standards.
21:49:29 <elliott> i like how Esolang has allowed Wikipedia to delete their esolang-cruft guilt-free :)
21:50:47 <oerjan> cpressey removed the email in the first edit after that, i see
21:51:39 <elliott> oerjan: did you know that the inventor of lazy k and kayak also made AviSynth and Huffyuv?!?!?!
21:51:56 <oerjan> not before your edit, no
21:51:59 <elliott> and co-wrote a paper with spj (and some other guy)?!?!?!?!
21:52:40 <elliott> arcanesentiment still looks mighty dead :(
21:54:14 <oerjan> <elliott> My cheques are plastic and have magnetic strips on them and they're called credit cards <-- EUROBURN
21:56:36 <pikhq> At least they're falling out of use.
21:57:04 <oerjan> <RocketJSquirrel> (But then, what DON'T we think is Jesus?) <-- homosexuals. hth.
21:57:34 <oerjan> i suppose there would be exceptions.
21:58:15 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:58:22 <zzo38> (Codensity (Const x)) has callCC, and (Codensity Endo) has Foldable; but what is the general criteria for (Codensity f) to have callCC and Foldable?
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22:06:27 <elliott> +1, very nice question. I presume this hasn't been solved, given the addition of the bounty. I'll look at this later. – MrGomez 1 hour ago
22:07:05 <shachaf> kmc: ESR, PG, or Anonymous? I forgot about that third option.
22:07:40 <elliott> shachaf: The author of that comment has recently been going on an insane bounty-hunting spree on SO, and is generally really high up in the rep leagues due to that.
22:07:51 <elliott> shachaf: That comment is on the only Haskell question with a bounty right now.
22:07:56 <elliott> FUN AND EXCITEMENT FOR THE TERMINALLY BORED
22:08:09 <elliott> Is there any way to clone a list in Haskell? I can't find any documentation on this or anything on SO. If there isn't can someone suggest a simple implementation on how to do so?
22:08:36 <oerjan> shachaf: hey what about script kiddies
22:08:38 <ion> THE TERMINALLY BOLD?
22:09:06 <ion> Is it OCD if you can’t help adding the terminating \x02 to the end of the line?
22:09:35 <elliott> Haskell values are immutable, so there's no need to clone a list; since you can't change it in the first place, you can just reuse the original list. In Haskell, "modifying" a list is just transforming it into a new list; the original list is never changed.
22:09:35 <elliott> Awesome, thanks very much. – gonzoc0ding 4 secs ago
22:09:41 <elliott> Somehow I doubt I resolved the underlying confusion.
22:09:55 <shachaf> Should've just said map id
22:10:13 <oerjan> does ghc have a rule for map id = id
22:10:48 <elliott> This is the easiest 40 rep I've ever made.
22:11:50 <shachaf> "(The rerunning of transactions that is done by the STM runtime is transparent and should not effect the outcome of any computation.)"
22:12:00 <shachaf> Isn't the whole point of it to EFFECT the outcome??!?!
22:12:42 <oerjan> i assume that means that the effect is the same as if it had been run only the last time
22:12:59 <shachaf> Oh, I know what the intended meaning was.
22:13:02 <oerjan> since obviously the order of transactions can matter
22:13:12 <elliott> oerjan: shachaf is making a pedantic e/a point.
22:13:41 <shachaf> elliott: Excuse me. I was *parodying* people who make pedantic e/a points.
22:14:33 <elliott> shachaf: The day when the internet realises that ironically being something is the same as being that thing, ... uh, it'll probably shut down.
22:15:16 * oerjan ironically swats elliott -----###
22:16:49 <shachaf> elliott: I do realize that. I was just ironically pretending I wasn't.
22:17:17 <shachaf> oerjan: You ought to kick me for being a pedant.
22:19:44 <elliott> (User creation log); 21:58 . . Sato (Talk | contribs | block) New user account
22:22:48 * oerjan suspends a broccoli from the ceiling
22:23:01 <oerjan> in a _very_ thin thread
22:24:07 <oerjan> <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: *underscores, phillistine. <-- *philistine
22:25:17 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that's an option for that word
22:25:38 <shachaf> elliott: Do you count T. S. Eliot as British?
22:41:21 <Sgeo> What kind of tool signs his emails with "Sent from my Virtual Machine"?
22:41:37 -!- augur has joined.
22:41:37 <oerjan> virtually anyone could do that
22:41:58 <elliott> any sig starting "Sent from my *" is a take-off of "Sent from my iPhone"
22:42:50 <Sgeo> But ... why would anyone CARE that he's using a VM?
22:42:57 <ais523> is "sent from my iPhone" added by some common iPhone app? or something in the default install?
22:43:09 * ais523 continues to dislike the word "app" even though it's the only correct one in that context
22:43:38 <elliott> ais523: the default mail client adds it
22:43:52 <elliott> Sgeo: anyone who uses sigs like that is just trying to mock people who sent emails ending "Sent from my iPhone"
22:44:09 <elliott> it's like "Sent from my ThinkPad" "Sent from my REAL COMPUTER" "Sent from MY ANUS HUR HUR"
22:44:29 <Sgeo> I don't know if my professor's capable of that
22:44:55 <kmc> the idea of "Sent from my iPhone" is "that's why the spelling and grammar is shit"
22:44:58 <zzo38> But you could use the X-Mailer header if you want to know the program that sends it, I think. You could also see which computer it is from if you needed that too; that is also specified in headers
22:45:01 <kmc> but of course it's advertising for apple
22:45:07 <kmc> nobody reads headers zzo38
22:45:20 <Sgeo> kmc, mail servers and clients do!
22:45:42 <kmc> i have seen people with sigs that apologize for brevity without promoting a particular brand of phone/tablet
22:45:56 <elliott> complaining about 'sent from my iphone" is just zzzzz
22:46:08 <kmc> also I would like to point out that "Sent from my iPhone" is 5 syllables and could be the last line of a haiku
22:46:16 <elliott> like nobody who does that complains about hotmail and yahoo advertising themselves in signatures
22:46:27 <zzo38> When at FreeGeek I use the UNIX 'mail' command and I think it displays all the headers; it sends the "X-Mailer" header too
22:46:59 <Sgeo> Sent from my Android/Sent from my Linux machine/Sent from my iPhone
22:47:51 <ais523> elliott: I complain about hotmail advertising itself in sigs; Yahoo doesn't, as far as I know
22:47:52 <zzo38> I don't add those kind of signature (or any at all); I just tell them not to send HTML email message to me and that works
22:48:24 <elliott> ais523: then you're annoying
22:48:25 <ais523> indeed, Bucky and I both send to Agora through Yahoo!, and it doesn't add advertising on either of ours messages
22:48:30 <elliott> ais523: by "complain about"
22:48:34 <elliott> I mean to the people who send emails from hotmail
22:48:40 <ais523> elliott: well, only to the extent that I don't use hotmail because of that (and for a few other people)
22:48:50 <zzo38> Does it depend whether you use the webpage or SMTP?
22:49:01 <ais523> I /do/ complain about Hotmail refusing to accept messages from Yahoo Groups, though, because that's ridiculous
22:51:36 <kmc> * elliott thinks kmc is psychic
22:51:55 <elliott> WHOA YOU QUOTED MY MESSAGE BEFORE IT EVEN???
22:54:19 <zzo38> Apparently if you are psychic the quantum random number generators in your vicinity become slightly biased (not only in the present, but even in the past and in a different location too!); but I don't really know for sure
22:56:13 <elliott> kmc: I heard PIC doesn't do much for security.
22:56:56 <kmc> where did you hear this?
22:57:14 <kmc> afaik it substantially frustrates return-to-libfoo / return-oriented-programming attacks
22:57:15 <elliott> kmc: Now that I think of it, probably suckless propaganda. :)
22:57:34 <elliott> I think it was this: http://benpfaff.org/papers/asrandom.pdf
22:57:37 <kmc> it's significantly worse on Windows, where the randomized load address is chosen once per exe at boot
22:58:44 <kmc> elliott, I think this exploits the fact that Apache is a forking server
22:58:58 <kmc> so you get many tries on the same memory layout
22:59:03 <zzo38> What is "return-oriented-programming attacks"?
22:59:05 <elliott> Glancing at that paper, I didn't actually read it.
22:59:32 <kmc> zzo38, cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
22:59:39 <elliott> This reminds me of http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/inevitable-interpreter.html.
22:59:51 <ion> kmc: What protocol? :-(
23:00:08 * elliott resists making snarky Debian security remark.
23:00:28 <elliott> See, I avoid being a horrible, annoying troll in other channels by simply being a horrible, annoying troll all the time in #esoteric.
23:00:32 <zzo38> What is "return-oriented-programming attacks"?
23:00:53 <elliott> zzo38: cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
23:00:58 <elliott> kmc: oh hey that's the paper the blog post mentions
23:01:01 <elliott> zzo38: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/inevitable-interpreter.html
23:01:21 <kmc> ion, what protocol which?
23:06:33 <kmc> elliott, i've only skimmed the paper too, but it seems far short of showing that ASLR is useless
23:06:45 <kmc> any countermeasure will have counter-countermeasures
23:07:01 <elliott> Yeah, I don't think that's what I read that convinced me of that.
23:07:05 <kmc> the main attack presented in the paper seems only relevant to forking servers on 32-bit
23:07:20 <kmc> "Although 64-bit machines are now beginning to be more widely deployed, 32-bit machines are likely to remain the most widely deployed machines in the short and medium term."
23:07:32 <kmc> times change, I guess :)
23:07:33 <ion> <kmc> zzo38, cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/papers/s07.html
23:07:53 <RocketJSquirrel> kmc: Yeah, you definitely don't have two 32-bit machines in your pockets.
23:08:32 <kmc> RocketJSquirrel, or am I just happy to see you?
23:08:54 <elliott> I was hoping nobody would do that.
23:08:54 <kmc> i'm not running Apache or Oracle DB on my phone
23:09:04 <kmc> you raise a good point but it's not what the paper meant :)
23:10:01 <elliott> kmc: Do you know anything about DDC?
23:10:06 <kmc> not really
23:10:17 <kmc> it has some fans in #haskell{,-blah}
23:10:57 <kmc> I'm glad you value my singular opinion
23:11:21 <elliott> I was looking for info more than opinions.
23:12:59 <zzo38> If there is a vulnerability in some program, you should just fix it.
23:13:24 <elliott> <kmc> i don't think the authors have been dead 50 years
23:13:35 <elliott> kmc: C'mon, it's not that difficult in most jurisdictions, is it?
23:15:03 <kmc> to make something public domain?
23:15:06 <kmc> i don't honestly know
23:15:13 <hagb4rd> the controversial about he responsibility of the authors of open source/free software is an old unfishished story
23:15:14 <kmc> I think there are jurisdictions where copyright is a moral right you can't waive
23:15:36 <kmc> even if you give a completely permissive license, you still have the copyright
23:15:47 <elliott> yeah, but I'm pretty sure e.g. the US and ~most of Europe let you release it
23:15:48 <kmc> (I don't know how they handle work-for-hire; perhaps there are exceptions for an established employment relationship)
23:15:55 <kmc> yeah I don't know
23:16:01 <elliott> IIRC it became possible in Germany once they changed things so that the GPL worked
23:19:19 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 12 00:19:48
23:20:34 <elliott> SNARKY REMARK ABOUT ALL PROBLEMS BEING CAUSED BY C++ AND AUTOTOOLS
23:22:11 <kmc> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/113
23:22:32 <elliott> Least sincere "Thanks for your feedback!" ever.
23:22:41 <kmc> i mean, our boost dep *is* ridiculous
23:22:53 <kmc> your distro will pull in 100 MB of binaries just so we can use a few headers and not link anything
23:23:02 <kmc> we are working on that
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23:24:31 <monqy> what was with that guy
23:24:49 <elliott> we seem to be attracting a lot of racist morons lately i said???
23:25:04 <zzo38> I make it, the other one, all programs are loaded at 0x80000000, it is single-tasking, the BIOS can only be accessed by NMI, and there is a small amount of RAM private for use of the BIOS for such things as debugging and error emulation. If there is buffer overflows possible in your program, you should fix it, instead of relying on the operating system to fix it for you.
23:26:12 <zzo38> No virus can hijack the system because all programs are self-contained.
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23:28:44 <hagb4rd> do you mean the hardware part oft it zzo38?
23:29:00 <elliott> kmc: you should consider using zzo38's system instead
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23:30:09 <zzo38> elliott: Actually it is only more secure if the software itself is designed to be secure against buffer overflows!
23:30:26 <zzo38> hagb4rd: That is done by both the hardware and the software
23:30:51 <hagb4rd> and what with smashing the stack?
23:30:57 <kmc> if you crash your car you should not do that, instead of relying on seatbelts and airbags
23:31:35 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Do you mean for my system?
23:31:52 <hagb4rd> good question..what system are we talking about?
23:32:05 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes; even if you have seatbelts and airbags you still shouldn't crash your car
23:32:17 <kmc> i agree with you zzo38
23:32:19 <zzo38> (Unless you are a crash test dummy)
23:32:26 <kmc> and yet I still feel better riding in a car with these things than one without
23:32:40 <kmc> it is the same with -fPIC and such
23:32:51 <elliott> that none of these issues exist with @
23:32:53 <zzo38> I feel better riding in a car with seatbelts; for airbags I don't care
23:32:58 <kmc> obviously we hope Mosh has no buffer overflows, and have put and will continue to put much effort towards this goal
23:33:03 <zzo38> elliott: I believe you
23:33:04 <kmc> yet we may fail
23:33:15 <elliott> zzo38: thank you, you are the first person to believe any claim I've made about @
23:33:41 <zzo38> But if @ doesn't exist then that is a vacuous statement
23:34:09 <hagb4rd> all van-neuman machines store the data and the controlling load in physically the same memory (other then harvard arch. e.g.) which makes it vulnerable for all times
23:34:11 <zzo38> Nevertheless I am sure you would fix it if you did make it
23:34:45 <kmc> but we would also be happier if in the meantime it's harder to exploit
23:34:57 <kmc> the meantime can of course include times when we are not aware of the bug
23:35:04 <elliott> kmc: Are you going to port mosh to @?
23:35:11 <elliott> It would be useful for interfacing to those ugly legacy systems.
23:35:13 <kmc> and also people who are still running the old software even after we've published a fix
23:35:16 <zzo38> OK, what stack-smashing exploit are you refering to specifically? If so, then I can tell you what it is in my system
23:35:31 <kmc> elliott, of course, as soon as you send me a pre-release developer edition of @
23:35:50 <elliott> kmc: Okay. Remind me in ten years.
23:36:31 <elliott> This is what happens when your design depends on solutions to several open problems :(
23:36:35 * kmc sets up google calendar
23:36:44 <elliott> Nooo! Don't. I'll be 26 in ten years.
23:36:51 <elliott> I don't want to *think* about being 26. That's practically dead.
23:37:05 <kmc> wait, for real?
23:37:24 <kmc> you're actually 16 years old?
23:37:43 <elliott> hagb4rd: What? You've been here for years!
23:37:55 <kmc> somehow i don't believe you
23:37:59 <zzo38> I would like to know if you found any hole in my idea!
23:38:06 <elliott> It's true, all I do is lie.
23:38:08 <kmc> but I'm probably just committing the fallacy of assuming everyone on the internet is like me
23:38:13 * kmc is closer to 26 than to 16
23:38:19 * kmc is almost dead
23:38:28 <elliott> It's okay, I'll come to your funeral.
23:39:03 <zzo38> If you come to my funeral I will sue you
23:39:19 <zzo38> elliott: Including "It's true, all I do is lie."?
23:40:08 <elliott> haha: "I've been fiddling with mosh in the lab here and I'm really impressed. I need to read up on your underlying protocol a bit, but right now I'm no longer as motivated to finish fixing tcp."
23:40:13 <elliott> kmc: you're demotivating the bufferbloat guy!
23:40:42 <kmc> yeah i saw
23:40:53 <kmc> you should bloat some more buffers
23:40:55 <kmc> to make up for it
23:44:42 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:46:29 * shachaf is closer to 16 than to 26!
23:46:50 <shachaf> And that's even without annoying the factorial pedantry you (you know who you are) were about to say.
23:47:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve this program, including to draw additional shapes and pie charts and so on? http://sprunge.us/MKDJ
23:56:14 <elliott> kmc: Can mosh solve the problem whereby a single crappy X program can freeze my entire computer?
23:56:27 <elliott> shachaf: I wasn't going to say anything.
23:57:02 <zzo38> About factorial, I guess
23:57:13 <shachaf> If you weren't going to say anything, then clearly I wasn't talking to you.
23:58:15 <elliott> Cool Hacker Titles for Your Business Card (beza1e1.tuxen.de)
23:58:27 <elliott> "PG Hacker" and "ESR Hacker", right kmc?
23:58:42 <zzo38> What is "PG Hacker" and "ESR Hacker"?