00:04:12 <pikhq> Anyone here know more about low-level x86 legacy junk than I do?
00:05:25 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/FTdG If so, tell me why this isn't working.
00:07:39 <Lumpio-> It seems you're writing a bootloader. Did you know there are many bootloaders that work perfectly fine, and enable you to skip the boring parts of building stuff that runs without an OS?
00:07:48 <olsner> maybe the disk addressing is wrong
00:08:02 <olsner> do heads and cylinders start at 0 or 1, for instance?
00:08:11 <pikhq> olsner: All but sectors are 0-indexed.
00:08:54 <pikhq> Lumpio-: This is like saying "It seems you're writing a kernel. Did you know there are many kernels that work perfectly fine?"
00:10:02 <pikhq> Replacing the x86 bootup sequence with "you get 32k loaded at 0x10000" is aesthetically pleasing.
00:11:00 <pikhq> As is knowing all the code running since the BIOS lost control.
00:11:29 <Gregor> pikhq: So, BIOS OK, bootloader not :)
00:11:41 <pikhq> Gregor: BIOS is unavoidable.
00:12:09 <Lumpio-> ...not if you can fit a disk driver into 510 bytes!
00:12:28 <Gregor> You could write your own BIOS code!
00:12:39 <pikhq> Lumpio-: The BIOS is still going to run before your bootloader.
00:12:59 <pikhq> Gregor: I suppose in theory I *could*, but that is machine-specific hell.
00:13:21 <pikhq> About the only thing you know for certain *there* is that the instruction pointer is at 0x0800:0.
00:14:41 <Lumpio-> I've only read about BIOS development once, and I heard it's not very easy.
00:15:07 <pikhq> Hardware manufacturers are lowest-cost bastards.
00:15:26 <Lumpio-> I never knew how much the BIOS actually does
00:15:42 <Lumpio-> Apparently some people hacked a C compiler to generate code that runs in the CPU cache
00:15:52 <pikhq> It's just some remedial hardware initialisation and a lot of legacy junk.
00:15:52 <Lumpio-> ...because the BIOS has to initialize the main memory controller before the memory can be used
00:16:11 <pikhq> Yeah, that's called "overengineering".
00:21:46 <Lumpio-> So anyways is your thing crashing at the disk read or
00:24:57 <olsner> seems to work in bochs, whatever that means
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00:35:22 <zzo38> "You might as well ask why they don't have touchdowns in baseball, or why they don't have a "royal flush" in tennis." Are you going to make a baseball with touchdown and a tennis with royal flush?
01:14:32 <pikhq> Lumpio-: No, it's just not jumping into my code right.
01:14:38 <pikhq> Maybe it's a qemu bug?
01:17:24 <pikhq> 'Cept, unless qemu is horrifically broken, this should work...
01:17:38 <pikhq> Can't be a BIOS bug if it works in bochs, seeing as qemu uses the same BIOS.
01:21:40 <Gregor> Freenode should allow Unicode nicks ...
01:21:47 <pikhq> VBox has a retarded interface, making it nontrivial to just go "run this disk image kthx"
01:24:09 <pikhq> As does bochs, for that matter.
01:25:02 <pikhq> "You can also start bochs with the -q option to skip these menus."
01:25:13 <pikhq> I passed -q to you!
01:26:35 <Lumpio-> pikhq: What debugger are you using
01:27:22 <pikhq> None, because there god-damned isn't a sane asm debugger.
01:27:58 <pikhq> And bochs appears to be horrifically broken on my system.
01:28:02 <pikhq> bochs-bin: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/bochs/plugins/libbx_x.so: undefined symbol: XpmCreatePixmapFromData
01:28:58 <zzo38> Gregor: No, I think it should be ASCII according to RFC
01:31:28 <Lumpio-> pikhq: How did you determine it's not jumping into your code right
01:32:18 <pikhq> Lumpio-: I don't see the single side effect my code has, writing 'A' to the screen.
01:33:15 <ion> http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/04/22/university-of-florida-eliminates-computer-science-department-increases-athletic-budgets-hmm/
01:33:16 <Lumpio-> How does it write it to the screen? Did you try writing something before the jump out of the bootloader?
01:33:22 <Lumpio-> ...could you paste the code it loads?
01:34:22 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ITAD
01:38:08 <zzo38> I also would like to have a custom BIOS in PC; one which uses the PC BIOS functions (both the old and new ones) but has Forth interpreter built-in, which can be used to configure the BIOS and to allow the computer to function even without an operating system. In addition, it should implement: terminal by serial port, telnet, TFTP, and download an operating system to RAM to run, to install from internet in that way.
01:39:55 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Have you figured out the Pokemon Card puzzle better now? (First and/or second file)
01:40:08 <Lumpio-> zzo38: I haven't really looked at it
01:40:49 <Lumpio-> pikhq: I'd probably try writing directly into the display memory instead of using BIOS calls
01:40:54 <Lumpio-> ...just in case something messed it up
01:41:54 <zzo38> Lumpio-: If you want the hint then I can provide some if asked; the (incorrect) solution you gave is what everyone (other than coppro) has said, too.
01:42:20 <zzo38> And, yes, you can write directly into the display memory which is usually how I do it too
01:43:23 <pikhq> Lumpio-: Ugh, writing to specific addresses in real mode. :P
01:43:52 <Lumpio-> This is what 32 bits and protected mode is for ~
01:44:14 <zzo38> There is also unreal mode
01:50:00 <pikhq> Anyways, did it and it doesn't work.
01:50:05 <pikhq> Though it works before the jump.
01:51:08 <Lumpio-> How are you making your disk image, got a makefile?
01:51:19 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IhFW
01:52:24 <zzo38> I have partially written an operating system for PC, but I have currently abandoned work on it (and might never continue); but you can look at it if you want to.
01:53:16 <pikhq> According to qemu's memory inspection, there's nothing but null at 0x10000.
01:53:35 <pikhq> Which seems quite strange.
01:54:32 <Lumpio-> I made memory management and multiprocessing but then I got bored.
01:56:23 <pikhq> I genuinely got nothing here.
02:00:19 <Lumpio-> I wonder where the stack starts if you don't set sp
02:01:17 <pikhq> Lumpio-: sp is set by the BIOS to 256 bytes above the end of your bootloader.
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02:04:39 <zzo38> I also wrote a short MBR code which you can use if you want to.
02:06:15 <Lumpio-> aww, I found one of my own too
02:06:50 <coppro> Writing a kernel is fin
02:08:24 <Lumpio-> ...it seems to do the exact same thing
02:09:30 <pikhq> Lumpio-: What differences even exist?
02:11:02 <Lumpio-> Well mine is dumb and assumes disk0
02:11:33 <Lumpio-> ...and it doesn't bother with byte movs and just sets full registers but
02:13:42 <Lumpio-> Oh and there's no jmp at the start
02:15:21 <pikhq> Oh, now I see what it is.
02:15:39 <pikhq> Fun fact: qemu borks on just catting stuff together.
02:15:48 <pikhq> Making a 1.44M image makes it work.
02:16:34 <Lumpio-> Maybe it doesn't like if you read past the image (even if it's emulating a floppy)
02:17:06 <Lumpio-> I'd at least print a warning...
02:20:29 <zzo38> Why do you just assume disk0?
02:21:22 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't. :)
02:41:53 <zzo38> Another programming language I wanted to invent, other than Ibtlfmm, is one which combines C, LLVM, and BLISS. Do you have any suggestion for name? Probably I could implement it more easily, and possibly in Haskell; but it will compile into LLVM
03:02:56 <pikhq> Now to figure out why the heck I can't get into protected mode.
03:03:06 <pikhq> Dear qemu: infinite reboot loop? Not helpful.
03:12:00 <zzo38> pikhq: I have had that problem too; the problem is that the example code to enter protected mode has a mistake in it.
03:13:38 <oklopol> why do seagulls keep attacking me :(
03:15:26 <oklopol> i mean yeah i do want to tear their wing out and grind them into featherpudding, but that's only due to the previous attacks.
03:19:13 <oklopol> (which is pretty much every time i see seagulls, and once some bigger bird decided i was oh so totally delicious)
03:19:25 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/dNQU Further ideas?
03:22:47 <Gregor> oklopol: It's because you bathe in fish carcasses every morning.
03:23:43 <itidus20> oklopol: those gulls are ones i fed some bread to at a picnic years ago...
03:24:36 <itidus20> :| .. life has grown considerably more depressing since those years
03:24:55 <oklopol> yeah isn't it great how our lives evolve :)
03:25:09 <oklopol> i'm gonna go back to work, let's see if i make it there alive.
03:25:30 <itidus20> lol. my moneys on you staying alive.
03:25:51 <oklopol> well right, i'll probably just lose my sight.
03:27:47 <zzo38> Too many cards spoils your chances of winning.
03:28:26 * itidus20 sends a raichu to assist oklopol.
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03:49:56 <zzo38> To assist oklopol doing what?
03:54:37 <pikhq> zzo38: In what way was the example code mistaken?
03:55:13 <zzo38> pikhq: I seem to remember, it was that it set an extra bit of the keyboard controller to tell the computer to reboot
03:56:05 <zzo38> Yes that is what was wrong.
03:57:41 <pikhq> Heeeey, still doesn't work.
03:57:57 <zzo38> Perhaps look at my code
03:58:53 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/DefZ
04:04:47 <pikhq> Not quite. Doesn't seem to be working still.
04:06:07 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CLGI The incantations, they work not.
04:15:58 <zzo38> pikhq: Does it have two ways of hexadecimal numbers?
04:17:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Whaddya mean?
04:18:14 <pikhq> deadbeefh and 0xDEADBEEF are both hex numbers in nasm, if that's what you mean.
04:18:27 <zzo38> Yes that is what I meant
04:20:34 <pikhq> Only thing I can figure is that my global descriptor table table is wrong somehow.
04:21:15 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe it is; does the emulator tell you anything about the reboot purpose? In Bochs, it did say the reboot was due to the keyboard controller command.
04:21:30 <pikhq> qemu doesn't tell me that at all.
04:21:39 <pikhq> And bochs isn't working on my distro ATM.
04:22:11 <zzo38> Then I don't know. I don't know much about global descriptor table.
04:23:17 <pikhq> Well, who does? It's arcane magic.
04:24:25 <zzo38> With the hexidecimal numbers, the thing I can see is that since you can use names too, it might confuse things if you have a name called "bach" or something like that. (In my program, all numbers are hexadecimal, and all names must be prefixed by $ so there will never cause such confusion)
04:25:21 <zzo38> pikhq: Arcane magic like in Dungeons&Dragons 3.5 eidition, like in 4th edition, or like in Icosahedral?
04:27:30 <pikhq> bochs-bin: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/bochs/plugins/libbx_x.so: undefined symbol: XpmCreatePixmapFromData
04:27:34 <pikhq> Fuck you, bochs. Fuck. You.
04:29:52 <fizzie> pikhq: Shouldn't the limit part of gdtr: be "gdtend-gdt" rather than "gdt-gdtend"?
04:30:00 <pikhq> fizzie: ... Probably.
04:30:44 <fizzie> And also dw for the limit and dd for the base, I'd think.
04:31:49 <pikhq> The base is supposed to be a 32-bit physical address for the GDT...
04:32:23 <fizzie> Yes, so why would it be "dw"?
04:37:18 <pikhq> Not that that helps at all.
04:38:40 <pikhq> Okay, finally got bochs working.
04:39:33 <pikhq> Message: write_virtual_checks(): write beyond limit, r/w
04:40:21 <pikhq> Oh, duh. Let's set up my data segments. XD
04:42:09 <pikhq> Message: interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0xff53)
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05:01:47 <zzo38> Do you like the nasm syntax or my syntax? There are other kind of assembly syntax too, in case you like that one instead, too.
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05:07:32 <pikhq> I think I prefer nasm syntax, but yours isn't too bad.
05:07:50 <pikhq> What's *bad* is AT&T-style syntax, as per gas.
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05:54:26 <zzo38> I don't like Haskell's deleteBy and deleteFirstsBy; I would prefer :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:55:24 <zzo38> And intersectBy should be :: (a -> b -> Bool) -> [a] -> [b] -> [b]
05:58:37 <zzo38> Or perhaps like this :: (Foldable t, MonadPlus m) => (a -> b -> Bool) -> t a -> m b -> m b
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07:01:02 <Sgeo> Why am I reading a comic about Go rather than sleeping?
07:01:50 <pikhq> Because sleep is for mortals.
07:01:59 <olsner> maybe you're afraid that if you go to sleep you will never wake up
07:03:30 <Sgeo> http://www.tigersmouth.org/viewpage.php?page_id=37
07:03:48 <Sgeo> Hmm, it appears to be for kids
07:04:02 <Sgeo> Judging from the "Play Go now" thing saying that there are other kids in the KGS room for the comic
07:05:53 <monqy> what did you expect
07:13:04 <zzo38> I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition
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07:22:07 <olsner> no one expects.... etc
07:23:51 * pikhq demands the Spanish Inquisition
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07:34:46 <zzo38> I thought of something like this: mconcat . primeFactors = id; map primeFactors . primeFactors = map return . primeFactors; primeFactors mempty = []; It is something which can be done on a category too, where you have a functor from that category to the free category of the quiver of that category.
07:49:12 <zzo38> I think it is also a faithful functor
07:51:07 <zzo38> Do you know these things?
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13:18:57 <NSQX> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-04-22#193102zzo38
13:23:04 <NSQX> Well, since void just means "no type", I used it as the only type in --C-=C-C-- because --C-=C-C-- literally had "no different types" but C/C++ does not allow assignment of a variable without decleration and I did not want to remove that restriction from --C-=C-C--
13:41:38 <Gregor> Sooo you conflated ⊤ and ⊥.
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13:44:59 <Gregor> And here I was going to say something about how the dyn type conflates ⊤ and ⊥ anyway.
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14:06:04 <Gregor> COLON EQUALS (U+2254) ≔
14:06:09 <Gregor> Why does this unicode character exist.
14:06:14 <Gregor> It admits in its name that it's two characters.
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15:15:33 <elliott> 21:08:28: <nortti> Lumpio_: weren't you who said that no one uses gopher anymore
15:15:33 <elliott> 21:09:36: <Lumpio_> I guess that would imply zzo38 is a no-one.
15:15:41 <elliott> Lumpio-: It's more that he doesn't count as part of "everyone".
15:16:25 <elliott> 21:26:45: <Lumpio-> Wait a minute, you have a gopher proxy for Stack Overflow!?
15:16:30 <elliott> It's read-only, or I'd use it exclusively :'(
15:17:02 <Lumpio-> I doubt OAuth would support Gopher anyways
15:18:14 <elliott> Any authentication mechanism that doesn't support gopher is useless.
15:19:47 <ion> HTTP-over-Gopher
15:21:11 <elliott> 22:21:21: <ais523> does anyone know what needs to be done to a chroot, to be able to connect to a postgresql database (that's outside the chroot) from inside it?
15:21:18 <elliott> ais523: If it uses a TCP socket, then "nothing", I think.
15:21:24 <elliott> If it doesn't, maybe make it so it does?
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15:21:39 <elliott> — I hear that you can send fds over Unix sockets.
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15:30:10 <ais523> tabcomplnoworkwithoutspace
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15:31:40 <ais523> elliott: you can telnet nethack4.org now, btw
15:31:48 <ais523> I recommend using telnet-ssl, to annoy kerio
15:32:02 <elliott> I'm sure telnet will be sufficiently annoying to start with
15:32:05 <ais523> or ssh nethack@nethack4.org, password is nethack
15:32:21 <ais523> elliott: right, but I'm trying to undermine his main argument about ssh's superiority
15:32:28 <elliott> anyway, if I play NetHack 4, I might forget the little amount of knowledge of how to play Crawl that I have
15:32:34 <elliott> ais523: you should set up mosh
15:32:38 <elliott> ais523: it'd be ideal for NetHack
15:32:42 <elliott> since most of the screen doesn't change each turn
15:32:48 <elliott> and it'd ensure consistent cross-terminal support
15:33:04 <elliott> (also, it authenticates over ssh, so you only have to install the mosh-server program and let ssh connectors use it)
15:33:08 <ais523> doesn't mosh assume that it isn't on a vastly shared account with separate sessions per user?
15:33:24 <elliott> I think you can set it up to run any program you want
15:33:43 <elliott> but it doesn't necessarily assume that beyond the fact that it starts a shell
15:33:57 <ais523> well, it isn't starting a shell in nethack4.org's case
15:34:07 <elliott> right, that's why I said you'd have to configure it to start the right program
15:34:11 <elliott> but you have to do that with ssh too
15:34:18 <ais523> I set nethack's login shell as a compiled executable that chroots to a hardcoded directory, drops permissions, and runs a hardcoded executable
15:34:39 * ais523 thinks there's something delightfully self-contradictory about a suid login shell
15:34:45 <elliott> right, so that just has to recognise whatever arguments ssh adds if you pass it "mosh-server blah blah blah"
15:34:57 <elliott> and start mosh-server with the hardcoded executable it runs as a parameter
15:37:08 <elliott> wow, how can a tr0lltherapy comment be at 315 points?
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15:39:35 <elliott> even if you will massively disrupt tab-completion
15:39:41 <HackEgo> ellisonch: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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15:44:16 <ais523> elliott: I can ping you easily enough with e tab
15:44:30 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that only works if i was the last e to talk, I think
15:44:32 <ais523> although arguably bash-like rather than cmd-like completion would be better in this case
15:44:46 <ais523> so if someone else is the last e to talk, I can just shout at them for not being you
15:44:47 <elliott> it should be based on frequency of how much you ping someone, IMO
15:44:58 <elliott> unless they haven't talked in ages
15:45:05 <ais523> elliott: if I just press tab, it repeats my last ping
15:45:12 <ais523> but I rarely do that, hard to get into the habit
15:45:24 <ais523> (there was no need to ping on that line, but I did anyway for testing purposes)
15:58:52 <elliott> ais523: OK, I'll try NetHack 4
15:59:21 <ais523> for some reason, it doesn't do anything but ASCII graphics on the server, not sure what that's about
15:59:27 <ais523> probably some misconfiguration in the chroot
15:59:56 <elliott> ais523: how long are the passwords?
16:00:23 <ais523> elliott: as big as can fit into the internal buffer, I think; they get hashed and salted, and the resulting hash seems to be around 50-60 chars long
16:00:29 <ais523> including the copy of the salt
16:00:42 <elliott> ugh, you should truncate them at 8 chars like CDO so I have less to type
16:00:54 <ais523> you could just use a shorter password?
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16:01:08 <ais523> there's no reason your password has to be max length
16:01:17 <elliott> but that way I can't blame the server for password insecurity
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16:02:15 <elliott> ais523: actually, I think ssh /is/ superior to telnet for game servers, just for better reasons than kerio
16:02:24 <elliott> because you can let people register with an SSH key rather than a password
16:02:41 <elliott> katia:~ elliott$ cat /dev/urandom | tr -cd 'a-zA-Z0-9' | head -c 20
16:02:43 <ais523> hmm, except that would require creating users on the server
16:02:58 <elliott> ais523: well, or using an SSH library to hook up the authentication to something else
16:03:07 <nortti> elliott: are you using OS X?
16:03:12 <ais523> fwiw, I use head -c on /dev/urandom, followed by uuencode, to produce random passwords
16:03:15 <elliott> but it's not really a problem to create a bunch of users; you can do it in a chroot if you want to avoid cluttering up the rest of the system
16:03:23 <elliott> nortti: yes, because my keyboard is broken
16:04:04 <elliott> OK, setting LANG=C makes tr do what I want there
16:05:54 <ais523> one thing that's weird: running gcc with all locale settings set to C rather than my usual en_GB.utf8
16:06:07 <ais523> the messages are still in English, but different
16:07:25 <elliott> "Confirm password:" fuuuuck
16:07:42 <elliott> please tell me it autologsin after that
16:08:01 <ais523> elliott: you'll be logged in after confirming
16:08:04 <elliott> ais523: are the default settings sane
16:08:14 <ais523> although one of them doesn't work and the fallback is insane
16:08:27 <ais523> why are you using a password more complcated than you can type, anyway?
16:08:35 <ais523> and why can't you just copy it with dragover/middleclick?
16:09:03 <elliott> ais523: because I'd usually use the same password I use for more or less everything (terrible habit, I know, but I haven't thought of a convenient enough fix yet), except I refuse to type that over telnet
16:09:09 <elliott> so I just generate a random one and email it to myself
16:09:32 <elliott> ais523: bug: it mangles the case of the name I give it
16:09:45 <elliott> ugh, first thing I did was type o
16:10:01 <elliott> ais523: bug two: Ctrl+hjkl doesn't work
16:10:19 <elliott> just not through doors, or something
16:10:29 <ais523> you wouldn't expect it to work through doors
16:10:38 <ais523> elliott: I swap o and v in Crawl
16:10:45 <ais523> you can swap o and v in nh4, if you like
16:11:16 <elliott> bug three: G isn't travel :P
16:11:24 <ais523> you can swap G and _ too if you like
16:11:48 <elliott> wow, early-game nethack monsters are so weak compared to Crawl
16:12:27 <elliott> ais523: blue is a bad choice for text, btw
16:12:34 <elliott> because the default colour for it is usually too dark to be readable
16:12:46 <ais523> elliott: you can turn on use_darkgray and it'll be darkgray instead
16:13:00 <ais523> that's not on by default because it has rendering problems on many terminals, and it wouldn't do for it to be invisible
16:13:00 <elliott> I was making a defaults suggestion, but thanks
16:13:07 <nortti> zzo38: You wanted to see my shell script gopher client: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/shgopher
16:13:48 <nortti> @tell zzo38 Myhell script gopher client: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/shgopher
16:15:09 <elliott> wow, it's amazing just how weird NetHack feels after playing Crawl for a few days
16:17:02 <elliott> ais523: btw, does nethack4.org have spectators?
16:17:08 <elliott> if yes, why does it force you to log in first?
16:17:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:17:23 <ais523> elliott: not yet, although you can see recordings of games after they happen (including other people's)
16:17:29 <ais523> it hasn't been implemented yet
16:17:44 <elliott> what was wrong with dgamelaunch, out of curiosity?
16:17:55 <ais523> it's not a good fit for nitrohack's view of the world
16:18:05 <ais523> and it's pretty cruftily coded internally
16:18:28 <ais523> it's got too much of a dependence on the terminal settings of the person playing
16:18:52 <elliott> wow, this level is really weird
16:19:35 <elliott> (http://ompldr.org/vZGhlZw)
16:20:51 <elliott> ais523: btw, why does the weak message say "SPECIES needs food, badly!"? it does that in nethack too
16:21:05 <ais523> elliott: it's a reference to Gauntlet
16:21:30 <ais523> it triggers only on things that were classes in gauntlet; elf was a class, so was wizard, and a couple of others
16:21:39 <ais523> indeed, it isn't, it's a class
16:23:01 <elliott> ais523: hearing the chime of a cash register probably shouldn't stop travel
16:23:22 <elliott> hmm, it seemed to just there
16:23:26 <elliott> but I could be misinterpreting the situation
16:23:30 <ais523> I don't think I've changed anything about that wrt travel stoppers
16:23:35 <ais523> did you see a monster, or step on an item or engraving?
16:23:38 <elliott> well, that's why i'm making suggestions :)
16:23:44 <elliott> I don't think I saw a monster, but I could have
16:24:29 <elliott> ais523: another bug: tab doesn't do my fighting for me ;)
16:25:40 <elliott> wow, Firefox doesn't support javascript: URIs any more
16:25:43 <elliott> I wonder what that means for bookmarklets?
16:26:02 <nortti> elliott: what? it doesn't?
16:26:04 <ais523> or all the sites that still use them?
16:26:21 <elliott> ais523: oh, good point; it's probably just direct address-bar entry they've disabled
16:26:32 <nortti> elliott: what firefox version are you running?
16:26:50 <elliott> ais523: hmm, autoexplore will happily explore even if there's monsters about
16:27:04 <ais523> elliott: but only one step, if they're a threat
16:27:20 <ais523> it's not identical to Crawl autoexplore, it's meant to stop at places where there's a reasonable choice of continuing or stopping
16:27:37 <elliott> yes, I'm just reporting every way the interface differs from Crawl's as a bug :)
16:27:42 <elliott> apart from the things i hate about crawl's interface
16:29:21 <elliott> everyone else must be really terrible
16:29:39 <ais523> elliott: no, the server just only came up very recently
16:29:48 <ais523> all the /good/ players haven't died yet :)
16:29:52 <elliott> ais523: btw, it's not clear that the scrollbars are really scrollbars
16:30:01 <elliott> I suggest putting e.g. Unicode up and down arrows at the top and bottom of them
16:30:17 <ais523> that'd leave less room for the bar itself, which is a problem on a smaller screen
16:30:22 <elliott> no, put them inside the bar
16:30:27 <elliott> at the topmost and bottommost positions
16:30:36 <ais523> I mean it'd shorten the bar by 2
16:30:43 <elliott> it would leave the bar at the exact same size
16:30:50 <elliott> you put the arrows /inside/ the bar
16:31:04 <elliott> if you really have one-character-big scrollbars, put an UPDOWN ARROW in them, I'm sure there's a character like that
16:39:28 <elliott> ais523: hey, which Crawl bot is which, again?
16:39:54 <ais523> elliott: Henzell reports on CAO; Gretell reports on CDO; Sequell reports stats in response to IRC questions
16:40:09 <ais523> generally speaking, for IRC queries, learndb stuff goes to Henzell, everything else to Sequell
16:40:12 <elliott> hmm, so Sequell is the one I want to ask about monsters/items?
16:40:15 <elliott> I thought there were two bots
16:40:19 <elliott> one of which did monsters and the other items, or something
16:40:29 <ais523> oh, not sure on that one, if you're looking for raw stats
16:40:34 <ais523> ask henzell if you're looking for learndb entries
16:40:40 <elliott> well, I want to ask the question "is this better than this", mainly :P
16:41:35 <ais523> try looking at in-game information? i then the item letter
16:42:41 <elliott> meh, I'd rather know before I pick it up
16:43:02 <elliott> 05:08:37: <Patashu> Henzell responds to ??
16:43:02 <elliott> 05:08:46: <Patashu> Gretell responds to @??
16:44:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what syntax does sequell use?
16:45:16 <ais523> elliott: in /msg to Henzell
16:45:20 <ais523> I know, I just tried it
16:45:42 <ais523> elliott: the documentation on how to use sequell is a learndb entry
16:45:45 <ais523> thus, it is in henzell
16:46:08 <ais523> not really, it's more logical than splitting the entries up between bots
16:46:10 <elliott> how do you view the subsequent pages? :P
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16:49:09 <ais523> elliott: repeat the query with a number in square brackets
16:49:22 <elliott> 17:46 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled !lg[2] in my learndb.
16:49:30 <ais523> elliott: oh, !lg is a redirect, it seems
16:49:42 <ais523> you have to use the name it responded with to access subsequent entries
16:49:54 <elliott> anyway, AFAICT this is just the documentation for !lg
16:49:58 <elliott> is that the only command Sequell supports?
16:50:18 <elliott> oh, for heaven's sake, I'll just ask you: is chain mail or ring mail better?
16:50:46 <ais523> I assume chain mail, but I don't know, and it probably depends on your skills
16:51:12 <ais523> this sort of question rarely has a simple answer in Crawl, because it's going to depend on a formula with nested d calls and twenty input variables
16:51:24 <ais523> (apparently there's a d(d(d6)) call in Crawl somewhere)
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <elliott> ??chain mail
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <Henzell> chain mail[1/1]: 7 AC, -4 EV.
16:51:53 <elliott> 17:51 <elliott> ??ring mail
16:51:54 <elliott> 17:51 <Henzell> ring mail[1/1]: +5 ac -2 ev.
16:51:57 <ais523> when making Crawl Light, one of the things dtsund did was add a numerical spell success percentage value; in order to do this, he first had to modify the code to be able to actually work out the success rate
16:52:15 <elliott> hmm, is crawl light any good?
16:52:21 <ais523> which was apparently mathematically nontrivial
16:52:31 <ais523> and I approve of it compared to regular Crawl, but it hasn't forked very far yet
16:54:05 <ais523> this is probably not a good strategy ;)
16:54:24 <elliott> ais523: well, I have no use for it, I'm just glad I can id them no
16:54:33 <elliott> my #1 crawl complaint so far, btw, is that autoexplore stops for bats
16:54:42 <ais523> you can make it not stop for bats in your RC file
16:54:44 <elliott> it should just ignore them, or maybe repeatedly autofight until they die
16:54:49 <ais523> doing so means you will probably get killed by bats, though
16:55:06 <elliott> ais523: I don't remember a bat ever doing appreciable damage to me, ever
16:55:13 <elliott> but yes, it should switch to autofight instead
16:55:18 <elliott> like monqy's script, except less... drastic
16:55:21 <ais523> elliott: it adds up, and they're faster than you
16:55:37 <ais523> also, the whole bat dance thing is ridiculous, there's a sequence of weird motions you can make to keep the bat in combat more often
16:55:54 <elliott> my #2 crawl complaint: worms and goliath beetles exist
16:58:04 <elliott> wait, I forgot, I'm a berserker
16:58:08 <elliott> OK, I don't care much about worms then
16:59:34 <ais523> worms are pretty easy, you can outrun them, so you just pelt them with junk/spells until they're dead
17:00:00 <elliott> ais523: yes, but that's really really annoying
17:00:08 <elliott> and I start hating Crawl whenever I have to do that
17:00:22 <ais523> elliott: this is why I hate Crawl, you have to do that on pretty much everything later in the game
17:00:24 <elliott> I forget whether he's a wimp or not
17:01:38 -!- augur has joined.
17:01:52 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if monsters pick up things you leave around on the floor
17:02:39 -!- cheater has joined.
17:04:11 <ais523> elliott: they can do; and jellies can destroy them
17:05:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]).
17:05:24 <elliott> ais523: right; I left a quarterstaff of chaos on the floor and then thought better of it
17:20:03 <elliott> ais523: err, why does Crawl let you wield armour?
17:20:22 <ais523> I think it lets you wield anything
17:20:34 <ais523> in NetHack, wielding armour is occasionally useful, but I don't think it is in Crawl
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17:23:59 <elliott> does Trog dislike you using glowing items, since they're magic?
17:24:03 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:25:33 <elliott> this channel has too little monqy in it to be ##crawl
17:27:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:27:41 <ais523> elliott: he doesn't dislike magic, he dislikes spellcasting (specifically)
17:27:45 <ais523> he's just fine with other sorts of magic
17:27:55 <elliott> ais523: good to know, thanks
17:29:41 <elliott> argh, there's chain mail on dungeon:1 and I didn't even notice
17:34:51 <oerjan> i wish webchat gave _some_ indication that you're still connected even if no one is talking :(
17:35:19 <oerjan> it's failure to do so is making me nervous.
17:35:31 <elliott> just say @ping every 10 seconds
17:35:57 <oerjan> elliott: yes that will go down well. i want a method which doesn't require me to do more than glance at the window.
17:36:15 <elliott> use an eye-based control interface so you can type @ping<ret> by glancing
17:36:59 <elliott> ais523: hendell is really useful, thanks
17:38:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nervous enough not to stay here, actually).
17:42:28 <elliott> z adder skeleton (wandering)
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17:57:50 <elliott> ais523: haha, I was in a fight so long that I managed to go berserk, finish being berserk, recover from my exhaustion and slowness, and go berserk /again/ before it finished
17:57:50 -!- cheater has joined.
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18:05:33 -!- augur has joined.
18:05:43 <HackEgo> 232) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
18:05:54 <HackEgo> 86) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
18:05:55 <HackEgo> 107) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
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18:23:48 <ais523> elliott: was it a disappointing anticlimax, as usual?
18:24:17 <elliott> I went down, ran into two powerful uniques, and decided to fight them rather than running away and preparing
18:25:16 <ais523> I'd call that a reasonably disappointing anticlimax
18:25:28 <elliott> well, NetHack has its fair share of that kind of stuff, too
18:25:38 <elliott> fighting everything you run into = dead
18:25:59 <ais523> yes, but the alternative is normally "find a creative way round" rather than "run away and use a different staircase"
18:26:45 <elliott> fair enough, although I think I could have survived if I had fought less stupidly
18:26:53 <elliott> rather than using berk as the solution to (and cause of) every problem
18:32:50 <olsner> hmm, britishairways.com looks like it says british hairways
18:39:17 <elliott> ais523: another reason mosh would be good for roguelikes: lets you know when your connection is lagging, stopping you doing really stupid things due to it
18:46:58 <elliott> I like how Crawl highlight "{was cursed}" in red
18:51:02 <elliott> ais523: hey, how can I check how much something weighs in game?
18:51:16 <ais523> elliott: in NetHack 4, the weight is shown in braces {5}
18:51:21 <ais523> you can't in vanilla NetHack
18:51:25 <ais523> Crawl also displays weight somewhere
18:51:33 <ais523> I think it's measured in aum, arbitrary units of mass
18:51:41 <elliott> thanks, that level of detail per game is the opposite of what I needed :P
18:53:04 <Gregor> (And knowledge is power!)
18:53:13 <ais523> oh, what information were you looking for?
18:53:37 <elliott> well, the weight of splint mail in Crawl; but how to find the weight of any item is a more useful abstraction of that
18:54:27 <ais523> try the i screen, I guess, it's probably there
18:54:37 <elliott> aha, selecting the item in i works
18:55:03 <elliott> _Your low strength makes using this armour a little more difficult.
18:55:08 -!- impomatic has left.
18:55:51 <ais523> elliott: I told you there were far too many stats involved :)
18:56:07 <elliott> I wouldn't care if there was a good info source for it
18:56:12 <elliott> e.g. a wiki that isn't as terrible as the one everyone says is terrible
18:56:59 <elliott> hmm, I can't figure out how much str I'll need
18:57:28 <ais523> neither can anyone else
18:57:34 <ais523> you could ask ##crawl, I guess, maybe they'll know
18:57:48 <elliott> accordingly, I've never joined it
18:58:43 <elliott> ais523: does esolangs.org load for you?
18:59:07 <ais523> elliott: it's being slow, at least, not loaded yet
18:59:14 <elliott> Gregor: ping, can you try too?
18:59:26 * elliott tries downforeveryoneorjustme too
18:59:33 <ais523> and stuck at the "Looking up…"
18:59:56 -!- nortti has joined.
19:00:04 <elliott> indeed, http://178.79.159.81/ loads instantly
19:00:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:00:09 <elliott> that means it's probably afraid.org
19:00:22 <elliott> we really need to get that domain moved somewhere more reliable
19:00:23 <ais523> yep, I think it's a DNS issue
19:03:04 * elliott considers emailing THE ALAN DIPERT
19:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: Looking up forevers.
19:03:43 * elliott while true; do ping -t5 esolangs.org; done
19:04:09 <elliott> right as i do that it goes back up
19:04:11 <elliott> you win this time, THE ALAN DIPERT
19:05:07 <Gregor> elliott: 'snot up for me.
19:05:14 <elliott> Ooh, I think it just broke again.
19:07:15 <elliott> Gregor: Has it been down long enough to complain yet?
19:08:07 <elliott> I FEEL A CRITICAL 9 SHORTAGE RIGHT NOW
19:08:35 <elliott> ais523: DO WE EVEN HAVE ANY 9S ANY MORE
19:09:27 <olsner> oh my, are we looking for ALAN DIPERT again?
19:09:56 <nortti> @tell nortti does this work with the sender beign the same as receiver
19:10:41 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
19:11:20 <nortti_> when does lambdabot inform about new messages?
19:11:20 <lambdabot> nortti_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:12:00 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
19:14:11 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
19:14:51 <elliott> nortti_: When you first talk after either joining or not speaking for ages
19:14:58 <elliott> (Changing nick also counts as joining)
19:15:24 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
19:15:33 <olsner> so if you join and don't say anything, you don't get notified?
19:16:08 <elliott> Gregor: It's still down :'(
19:17:11 <Gregor> elliott: Now I have to go look up that conversation in the logs X-D
19:17:17 <Gregor> C obsessively turning everything into 9s.
19:17:31 <elliott> _Two_ shimmering altars of Xom???
19:18:49 <nortti> Gregor: what conversation
19:20:57 <Gregor> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-08#011843elliott
19:21:38 <elliott> ais523: centaurs are assholes
19:21:55 <ais523> elliott: wait until you meet yaktaurs
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19:22:15 <elliott> are those like centaurs but instead of horse it's a yak
19:22:24 <elliott> i think i might have met one already actually
19:23:21 <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:23:43 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:46 <HackEgo> 845) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
19:23:52 <elliott> Gregor: it's roguelikes, all their monsters are goofy
19:25:36 <Gregor> Since when does clog have ops, btw?
19:27:10 <nortti> c2bf project status: moved actual code out of stdio.h, discovered string.h which made writing c2bf-cpp much easier, wrote very simple c2bf-libc and made it it's own makefile which compiles c2bf-libc to object code and updated wrapper to automaticaly run c2bf-cpp and link executables with c2bf-libc if command line argument -libc is present
19:27:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:27:28 <elliott> nortti: It would be about 10x easier to just finish gcc-bf.
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19:29:11 <nortti> elliott: where can I find gcc-bf?
19:29:36 <nortti> also esolangs.org seems to be down al lest for me
19:30:34 <Gregor> nortti: elliott has decided to take it down as a show over power.
19:30:45 <Gregor> We must give penance for him to bring it back.
19:31:01 -!- Gregor has set topic: All hail elliott, lord of the wiki | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:31:26 <elliott> I once deleted a valuable esolang... JUST BECAUSE I COULD
19:31:30 <elliott> Then I removed the deletion log entry from the database.
19:32:15 <elliott> Oh, a "potion of porridge" is just... porridge.
19:32:41 <Gregor> elliott: It should make you barf porridge.
19:32:48 <elliott> nortti: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW.
19:33:24 <Gregor> Wait, where's Schrodilang?!?!
19:39:00 <Gregor> Ohlook, esolangs.org is back up.
19:39:12 <elliott> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3931 "Summary: BEES"
19:39:22 <Gregor> Well I guess it just loves me then.
19:41:20 * elliott drafts an email to THE ALAN DIPERT.
19:41:46 <Gregor> To: THE ALAN DIPERT <THE ALAN DIPERT@THE ALAN DIPERT>
19:41:50 <Gregor> Subject: THE ALAN DIPERT
19:42:47 <elliott> Can people try to ping esolangs.org's nameservers to see if they're up?
19:42:55 <elliott> Just want to make sure I can blame afraid ;)
19:43:35 <Gregor> All are unpingable, but to be fair, that may be normal.
19:43:45 <elliott> Gregor: Well, send them a DNS request for themselves, then.
19:44:08 <elliott> Gregor: Are you sure that's not cached?
19:44:18 -!- boily has joined.
19:44:38 <Gregor> I didn't know how to ask dig to do the right thing.
19:46:43 <elliott> "You occasionally shout uncontrollably."
19:47:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Quit: reboot).
19:51:14 <olsner> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
19:54:44 <elliott> how could anyone upvote that ridiculously stupid answer?!
19:57:16 <olsner> which ridiculously stupid answer?
19:57:48 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10286680/how-to-create-typeclass-instances-of-a-promoted-type; the answer that isn't mine.
19:58:06 <olsner> oh, yours is not the stupid answer?
19:59:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
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20:01:49 <HackEgo> 806) <oklofok> you tell us you're making a lisp interpreter, but you don't mention its polterchrist is c++ templates? <oklofok> isn't that like telling us you're taking a bath and not mentioning you're bathing in a WORLD FULL OF SNAKES
20:02:31 <ais523> http://www.ioccc.org/years.html
20:02:38 <ais523> Gregor: your moment to shine!
20:02:43 <elliott> ais523: you're like a week late
20:03:28 <elliott> but I'd expect nothing less from you ;)
20:04:47 <elliott> ais523: hey, what do you do when there's a jelly, an orc wizard, and an orc?
20:05:53 <ais523> orc wizards are not top priority if their LoS is blocked, plain orcs are reasonably wimpy
20:06:50 <olsner> did you come up with "the Cutter Kobold of Trog"?
20:07:04 <elliott> it's "the Cutter: Kobold of Trog"
20:07:04 <olsner> or is that provided by the game?
20:07:11 <elliott> well, I decided to be a kobold berserker
20:07:15 <elliott> which means that I worship trog
20:07:21 <elliott> and the cutter thing advances as you go through the game
20:07:27 <elliott> but no, I didn't pick the phrase specifically
20:09:01 <elliott> ais523: hmm, maybe I can melee the jelly, escaping the wizard's line of sight, and then hand of trog+berk the orcs
20:09:20 <olsner> I think it's bath o'clock now (or 5-10 minutes past)
20:09:50 -!- augur has joined.
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20:10:59 <elliott> thanks for the reassurance, ais523 :P
20:11:34 <ais523> elliott: I often keep a backup weapon for jelly-killing
20:11:48 <ais523> typically a weapon that's good but strictly worse than my main weapon
20:11:49 <elliott> i just realised, thanks :P
20:11:59 <elliott> actually, my backup weapon is a bit worse than my main weapon
20:12:03 <elliott> err, I'll just ruin my main weapon
20:15:29 <Gregor> <ais523> Gregor: your moment to shine! // feel free to praise me even though you're late
20:15:43 <ais523> I praised you already!
20:15:47 <ais523> back when the winners were announced
20:15:55 <Gregor> Read the code THEN praise me.
20:16:02 <Gregor> So you know what you're praising!
20:16:05 <ais523> but, hmm, I'll have to think of something even more creative for next year, and I'm out of ideas
20:16:07 <ais523> and I'd seen the code already
20:16:54 <elliott> now it's jelly + orc priest + orc wizard
20:17:54 <elliott> holy shit, this is like orcsville
20:18:27 <Gregor> Orcsville, the newest game by whatever dumbshits made Farmville.
20:21:38 <elliott> ais523: is henkaure scary? not in learbdb
20:22:13 <ais523> elliott: has spells that can be very nasty for a starting character if he uses them, or quite an advanced character because they scale; does bad stuff to you if you kill him
20:22:17 <ais523> run if you can, is simplest
20:22:39 <elliott> I think I can, but it'll be quite difficult to explore this level if he's around
20:22:45 <elliott> downtime so far, btw: 18:58 --> 20:21
20:22:55 <elliott> ais523: also, I can get MR easily
20:23:18 <ais523> elliott: so long as you don't run out of piety
20:23:26 <elliott> ais523: I sacrifice a /lot/ of corpses
20:23:26 <ais523> not a risk unless you really abuse it, I think
20:23:40 <elliott> well, I use it pretty much every time I come across an orc wizard
20:23:44 <elliott> and I've never lost the ability to do it, ever
20:24:03 <elliott> Your +0,+0 mace glows black for a moment.
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20:34:34 <elliott> ais523: btw, who wrote "They say that the Orb of Zot exists deep, deep down but nobody ever got it."?
20:34:58 <ais523> elliott: some of the developers, because they were afraid people wouldn't understand the object of the game
20:35:06 <ais523> the message is randomized, there's a bunch of them, none are any good
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20:40:01 <elliott> ais523: well, badness is one thing
20:40:12 <elliott> ais523: "but nobody ever got it" is badness at a professional level
20:40:21 <elliott> how many of the devs are non-native speakers?
20:48:40 <elliott> ais523: btw, ##crawl *is* scary, right?
20:49:04 <ais523> mostly it's just boring
20:49:21 <elliott> i have this vision of a silent channel judging me for being a terrible player
20:49:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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20:50:38 <elliott> what if it's a channel filled with 20 monqys
20:50:42 <elliott> i don't know if i can handle that much monqy
20:51:45 <elliott> Ohh -- that'll teach me not to read the original question thoroughly 8^( – comingstorm 6 mins ago
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21:17:49 <elliott> ais523: Gregor: does esolangs.org work for you yet?
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21:20:51 <ais523> elliott: it was slower than normal but loaded in around 5s
21:20:54 <elliott> You feel as though Xom is toying with you.
21:20:54 <elliott> _Suddenly, the walls become transparent!
21:21:03 <elliott> ais523: how can that happen if I don't worship Xom???
21:21:19 <ais523> are you sure you don't worship Xom?
21:21:26 <elliott> # #.....##..+ +..... #+# ...# Kobold of Trog **....
21:21:31 <ais523> either that, or they've decided to make him poke in from time to time anyway
21:21:39 <ais523> alternatively, did you anger Xom?
21:21:44 <ais523> angry Xom acts much like happy Xom
21:22:24 <elliott> I don't recall doing anything to anger Xom, although I'm probably pretty boring
21:22:27 <elliott> "Xom cannot be prayed to, has no conducts, and accepts no sacrifices. He is not so much worshipped as he is experienced."
21:22:34 <elliott> "When Xom is in a bad mood he gives you random mutations and when he's in a good mood he gives you good mutations. As a result Xom worshippers will typically have good mutation sets or be dead."
21:23:50 <elliott> actually, the main reason I'm afraid to join ##crawl is that they already know how bad I am
21:24:03 <elliott> except they think I'm even worse than I am, since I got better since then
21:24:15 <ais523> elliott: Xom is no longer mutation-heavy, they moved that stuff to Jiyva
21:24:41 <elliott> (monqy spammed a bunch of my deaths to the TV bot)
21:30:00 <elliott> 22:29 <Henzell> sheep[1/3]: Not even sorear has died to this one yet. These crafty beasts have managed to outwit lemuel 2 times!
21:30:05 * elliott tries to work out what "not even sorear" implies
21:31:12 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there a command like autoexplore but that just walks around randomly instead?
21:32:51 <ais523> it doesn't seem massively useful
21:33:17 <ais523> I think TAEB has a behaviour for doing that, though
21:33:26 <ais523> as a final fallback in Behavioral
21:33:54 <elliott> ais523: it'd be useful for grinding
21:34:08 <elliott> I want to train my sword skills before descending lower, but have explored everywhere already
21:34:16 <elliott> so I just want to run into monsters a lot
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21:44:54 <ais523> elliott: that doesn't work in Crawl, the game's intentionally balanced to stop you doing that
21:45:17 <elliott> ais523: no, my short blades level was below my experience level
21:45:26 <ais523> the monsters are too wimpy to give good exp for a while, then they spawn too slowly to give you food, then it spawns massively out of depth stuff to kill you
21:45:55 <ais523> skill points are split between skills
21:46:11 <ais523> so if you want a higher short blades skill, you should have been focusing it earlier
21:46:29 <ais523> and you won't get enough exp to make a meaningful training of it without going lower
21:46:55 <elliott> ais523: I couldn't focus it earlier
21:46:57 <elliott> I didn't have a short blade
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21:48:09 <elliott> gah, there should be something to stop you butchering things you can't eat
21:49:57 <ais523> <elliott> I didn't have a short blade <--- Crawl Light fixes this!
21:50:21 <olsner> "<elliott> i don't know if i can handle that much monqy" <-- maybe you can handle the monqy, but can you handle the hi?
21:50:30 <elliott> monqy is uncorrelated with hi
21:50:49 <ais523> elliott: it lets you focus a skill even if you have no way of training it
21:50:57 <ais523> and exp gets funneled into it nonetheless
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21:51:02 <elliott> ais523: that's unrealistic!
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22:02:26 <elliott> fwiw: total downtime was 18:58 to 21:17
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22:12:04 <elliott> ais523: how come mimics are so bloody strong?!
22:13:12 <ais523> because you can run away!
22:14:39 <elliott> hmm, I see what monqy meant about anti-Crawl bias now
22:15:32 <ais523> I'm pretty biased/cynical/jaded about it
22:15:36 <elliott> no, he mentioned it from me, but you're where I got it from :)
22:15:59 <ais523> elliott: I /want/ to like Crawl, I just can't
22:16:55 <ais523> oh, good, they used "inept mimic"?
22:17:07 <elliott> it almost killed me, so it's not very inept after all
22:17:13 <ais523> they named that just a few days ago, I talked them out of using "playful", or something equally awful
22:17:13 <elliott> or at least, less inept than I am
22:17:28 <elliott> ais523: must have been, like, a day before I started playing
22:17:30 <elliott> since I've had them all the time
22:17:53 <elliott> ais523: I suppose "trunk" really is trunk :)
22:18:07 <ais523> depends on how long it is since the last release
22:18:15 <elliott> I only play it because monqy told me to
22:20:50 <elliott> and no convenient corridor
22:22:35 <elliott> ais523: hey, can you build walls in Crawl?
22:24:06 <ais523> I think there are summoning spells that create temporary immobile monsters, but they're really high-level
22:31:02 <elliott> 23:30 <Henzell> iron devil[1/1]: Lots of resistances, but slow and doesn't hit as hard as you would expect. Almost completely ignorable 4. Not even worth killing in the Hells, but be careful if it shows up on D:7 or something (and isn't across lava).
22:33:07 <elliott> ais523: so are inept mimics new?
22:33:37 <ais523> they decided they wanted more mimics, and so created a weak version to put on earlier levels
22:34:17 <elliott> ais523: I hate the devs already
22:38:49 <elliott> ais523: does Crawl ever use bold white?
22:39:04 <elliott> (and if not, are there any other reasons to use brightness, not bold, for ANSI bold?)
22:40:03 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure, but I expect so
22:40:11 <ais523> but it'd be using it /for/ brightness
22:40:20 <elliott> yes, but I just set white to the same colour as bright white
22:41:03 <elliott> ugh, I'm too used to the terrible rendering of Menlo 13pt to use anything else now
22:44:25 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I'm going to send an email to THE ALAN DIPERT now
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23:10:23 <elliott> Gregor: This PNG is too big :'(
23:11:23 -!- monqy has joined.
23:16:00 <monqy> another elli- person i see
23:16:08 <elliott> monqy: i: played crawl more, & died more; but: the deaths weren't interesting these times
23:16:13 <shachaf> monqy: hi can i speak with elliotts
23:20:13 <monqy> elliott: did you get anywhere
23:20:21 <monqy> shachaf: what does that mean
23:20:29 <elliott> monqy: Nowhere of interest.
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23:22:31 <elliott> monqy: also wowe ais523 really hates crawl
23:22:51 <monqy> depending on what you mean by really, hates, crawl
23:23:10 <elliott> i think he's almost certainly worse
23:23:29 <elliott> his answer to every single Crawl-related question involved making Crawl look as hopelessly bad as possible
23:23:47 <shachaf> Why does ais523 hate Crawl?
23:23:49 <elliott> "is X or Y better" "who knows, it probably depends on 500 stats and nested dice rolls!"
23:23:59 <elliott> "how should I handle this monster" "run away, like everything else"
23:25:14 <elliott> monqy: ps is crawl light better
23:25:18 <elliott> ais said yes but he's biased
23:25:38 <elliott> also if i join ##crawl will they remember that time you played all my really bad muck deaths ;___;
23:26:17 <elliott> shachaf: Can you the DNS SOA entry for esolangs.org?
23:26:21 <elliott> I don't want to put my email there.
23:26:48 <monqy> elliott: crawl light has some noble goals but afaik it hasn't branched far enough to be substantially better oh wait no I take that back
23:26:58 <monqy> elliott: it got rid of item identification
23:27:01 <monqy> elliott: a big plus
23:27:12 <monqy> I think it's also working on getting rid of food?
23:27:26 <elliott> i don't like how you can train things without
23:27:46 <monqy> crawl used to force you to use your skills to train them
23:27:49 <monqy> trust me it's better now
23:28:06 <elliott> in crawl i can't train short blades without having had a short blade or whatever
23:28:10 <elliott> but apparently in crawl light you can
23:28:15 <elliott> and i think that's a bit silly
23:28:29 <monqy> also probably ##crawl won't remember your muck deaths but even if they do they won't care
23:28:47 <monqy> I forget how crawl light's experience system works
23:29:49 <elliott> monqy: can you be esolangs.org's SOA email
23:29:56 <shachaf> elliott: Can I the DNS SOA entry?
23:30:11 <monqy> i can't do that :(
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:41: <elliott> (monqy spammed a bunch of my deaths to the TV bot)
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:43: <elliott> (to view them)
23:30:25 <monqy> 21:24:46: <elliott> (in ##crawl)
23:30:26 <shachaf> Oh, you want to put my email address there?
23:30:29 <elliott> monqy: all you have to do is forward any messages about it to me!!!!!!!
23:30:29 <monqy> elliott: i didn't spam them in ##crawl
23:30:37 <elliott> someone in ##crawl noticed anyway
23:30:45 <elliott> <bold>same thing</bold> i can't do bold on this client
23:31:01 <monqy> i spammed them in private message but i queued it after some stuff people were watching on tv so
23:33:33 <monqy> 22:22:35: <elliott> ais523: hey, can you build walls in Crawl?
23:33:41 <monqy> tomb card in escape decks can make temporary walls
23:36:22 <elliott> Come on, someone has to want to be my SOA.
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23:36:29 <elliott> Gregor! You must want to be my SOA.
23:36:40 <monqy> also scariest thing about ##crawl for you would probably be people mistabcompleting you/elliptic
23:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: What does an SOA do?
23:36:56 <elliott> monqy: are there any other ellis in ##crawl
23:37:18 <elliott> shachaf: Responds to emails about the domain.
23:37:20 <monqy> there's just elliptic he's a regular and also a dev
23:37:27 <shachaf> elliott: What kind of emails.
23:37:35 <elliott> shachaf: Uhh, none, really.
23:37:56 <elliott> monqy: But if there was another then people couldn't blame me for ruining tab complete.
23:38:34 <monqy> get ellisonch to join with you
23:38:40 <shachaf> elliott: Does it allow me to steal the domain name if I get malicious about it?
23:39:19 <elliott> you could lie to people who ask about the domain
23:39:44 <shachaf> Like saying "hi monqy" to them?
23:40:37 <shachaf> Just use your email address.
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23:46:37 <pikhq> elliott: SIXTH. Find.
23:46:54 <elliott> i'll let you know that the only copies on sprunge are old
23:46:58 <elliott> and have a bug (that i know how to fix tho)
23:47:07 <pikhq> I'm merely curious is all.
23:47:16 <pikhq> I'm doing my own nastiness. :P
23:47:26 <pikhq> Well, it should be. It's in 512 bytes and x86.
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23:47:33 <elliott> no, uglier than you're imagining
23:47:41 <elliott> i invented my own word encoding
23:47:53 <elliott> and theres a separate compiler and interpreter
23:47:56 <elliott> except only the latter works
23:48:53 <elliott> 2011-11-10.txt:00:27:26: <elliott> ais523: goes through sprunge pastes I made in 2011-{03,04,09} and prints out the ones that contain "push 0xB800", which was one of the first lines of my Forth bootsector code
23:48:57 <elliott> ah, I can reuse my 2011 effort to find it
23:49:26 <shachaf> What Forth bootsector code?
23:49:34 <elliott> pikhq: btw, I think it should be possible to fit a "TC but for memory" forth in the 510 bytes
23:49:39 <elliott> pikhq: but it will be very very difficult
23:49:49 <pikhq> shachaf: Elliott wrote a Forth in a bootsector.
23:49:50 <elliott> I size-optimised the hell out of everything and it still pushed up against the limit with only a few basic words
23:49:56 <elliott> it wasn't really a Forth, it was something that could become a Forth :)
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23:50:13 <pikhq> elliott: No kidding; you'd want a truly ridiculous word encoding.
23:50:40 <pikhq> Well, actually. That itself might not be a big deal. What you would want is some really ridiculous primitives.
23:50:49 <elliott> pikhq: the word encoding was simple enough
23:51:01 <elliott> it just allowed for very few characters, and packed them together
23:51:11 <elliott> it didn't allow mixing alpha+numeric
23:51:16 <elliott> one bit was reserved for denoting whether the thing was a number or not
23:51:23 <shachaf> elliott: 446 bytes, please.
23:51:35 <elliott> a word could be like 5 characters in the end, IIRC
23:51:51 <pikhq> elliott: Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, stick the partition table in the boot sector.
23:52:11 <pikhq> You can and should freely ignore this on floppy disks.
23:52:27 <lambdabot> http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/
23:52:35 <elliott> right, no partition table on floppies
23:52:36 <pikhq> Or if you are writing a *volume* boot record, not a master boot record.
23:53:07 <pikhq> A normal MBR will just grep for the active partition and chain load the first sector of that.
23:53:12 <elliott> i didn't link to the sprunge i found
23:53:15 <elliott> however i can just run the script again
23:53:56 <elliott> katia:logs elliott$ for x in $(grep 'elliott>.*http://sprunge\.us/' 2011-0{3,4,9}-??.txt | sed 's/.*\(http[^ ]\+\).*/\1/g;'); do if curl -sS "$x" | grep -c 'bits 16' >/dev/null; then echo "$x"; fi; done
23:53:56 <elliott> curl: (6) Could not resolve host: 2011-03-09.txt:21:43:04; nodename nor servname provided, or not known
23:53:56 <elliott> curl: (6) Could not resolve host: <elliott>; nodename nor servname provided, or not known
23:53:59 <elliott> any ideas how to fix that?
23:55:13 <elliott> pikhq: i assign you since you're the one getting me to do it :)
23:56:40 <pikhq> Abuh? That... *should* work.
23:57:09 <pikhq> Maybe remove that semicolon after g? Otherwise, though, ?
23:58:21 <shachaf> Maybe look at the output and see what's going on?
23:59:20 <elliott> pikhq: i suspect it's some gnu extension
23:59:35 <elliott> removing semicolon didn't work