00:00:44 <elliott> Don't be silly. GPUs just don't have the kind of elastic scaling you need to enumerate every GUID.
00:02:02 <jfischoff> facepalm, how could I forget about elastic scaling?
00:02:53 <elliott> If you have one of the 50 fastest computers in the world, then you can make the subatomic strings themselves elastic.
00:03:00 <zzo38> I have added a new version of "prelude-generalize" Haskell package with (>>=||), (>>=|||), (>>=|\/), (>>=\/), azero, aplus, unnull.
00:03:04 <elliott> So you could have it done by next Tuesday.
00:03:38 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:16 <jfischoff> but only if that is the way google does it
00:04:34 <elliott> Oblig. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
00:04:43 <zzo38> There is no Checkout compiler as far as I know.
00:07:56 <jfischoff> elliot: nice. Just learned that I'm a munctional programmer.
00:13:17 -!- augur has joined.
00:15:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:15:59 <elliott> You finish putting on the +2 pair of gloves of the Republic {rPois Str+3
00:16:08 <elliott> Do these offset the loss of my unarmed combat bonus, being a ghoul?
00:16:15 <elliott> (I don't need the rPois, obviously.)
00:18:06 <elliott> Patashu: Better question: What exactly is the bonus?
00:18:21 <elliott> Oh, jeanjacques just told me :P
00:19:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:19:22 <elliott> OK, time to choose myself a god.
00:19:32 <elliott> I guess it's Makhleb or Ashenzari again (comedy option: chei).
00:20:19 <elliott> Patashu: You were advocating sticking with Ashey, right?
00:21:59 <Patashu> if you're going to go ash, bind yourself fully
00:22:03 <Patashu> if you don't feel like it go makhleb
00:22:48 <elliott> I'll go with Makhleb. I feel like I'll like Ashenzari more when I'm older and wiser and less violent. :p
00:22:59 <elliott> But, you know, HP on killing!
00:24:45 <elliott> Patashu: Did you say I could hear a buckler too?
00:25:06 <Patashu> always wear a buckler unless you're using a ranged weapon or 1.5-2 handed weapon
00:26:01 <elliott> I guess I'll switch back and train armour.
00:28:00 <variable> elliott: http://dpaste.com/hold/743008/ poly.hs is unmodifed the entire time
00:28:26 <elliott> variable: hahaha, that "file" output is amazing
00:29:16 <zzo38> You need to set the extension to .lhs to use literate Haskell
00:29:42 <variable> zzo38: poly.lhc: file not recognized: File format not recognized
00:29:55 <zzo38> variable: That is because you put .lhc by mistake
00:30:18 <variable> [9656 eitan@radar ~/poly ]%./poly
00:30:18 <variable> I'm a Literate Haskell program.
00:30:55 <elliott> pfft, literate haskell is cheating ;)
00:31:42 <elliott> Patashu: _Level annotation: magistern's ghost, experienced HOEE
00:31:49 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
00:34:31 <Patashu> I just had to climb through the most awful arena level anyway
00:34:42 <elliott> ion: Should I be really scared of that ghost? :(
00:34:47 <Patashu> it was full of: orc priests. orc wizards. a hydra. a two-headed ogre. a kobold with a wand of fire.
00:34:56 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:05 <ion> elliott: Dunno, i wasn’t paying much attention.
00:35:08 <Patashu> and I tried using corrupt but it was shit
00:35:11 <elliott> why is it "experienced" then
00:35:35 <elliott> ion: ahaaha look at my game
00:35:39 <elliott> these butterflies are confusing
00:35:43 <elliott> the ghost's hiding amongst them
00:37:06 <elliott> wonder if i can get to that upstairs
00:37:47 <ion> Two orc priests? Nice.
00:37:48 <elliott> fear worked on everyone but the things i care about
00:38:21 <elliott> this is one of those situations where i should have read teleportation a year ago
00:39:42 <zzo38> You have to go to the leftstairs and then destroy the human priest of the International Church of Evil and then activate the blue clock and as soon as it reaches 42, you have to immediately teleport into hyperspace.
00:40:10 <zzo38> If you don't do it *exactly* then you will lose.
00:40:34 -!- tzxn3_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:41:08 <zzo38> And even if you do it exactly correctly, then you still have a 50% chance to lose anyways.
00:41:18 <zzo38> And a 25% chance to draw and 25% chance to win.
00:41:34 <ion> elliott: What would NihilistDandy do?
00:41:58 <ion> No, he wouldn’t, but he’d still make it. :-P
00:42:00 <zzo38> And never begin a sentence with "and".
00:42:18 <ion> just like that
00:42:24 <elliott> turned to rubber for the past 10 turns
00:43:59 <elliott> are deep elf soldiers scary
00:44:07 <elliott> 01:44 <Gretell> deep elf soldier (e) | Spd: 10 | Int: high (items) | HD: 3 | HP: 9-18 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Dam: 6 | Fl: spellcaster | Res: magic(24) | Chunks: contam | XP: 33 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility.
00:44:21 <zzo38> elliott: Do they have a weapon? If so, then you should escape.
00:46:04 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/jfmoY.jpg
00:48:25 <elliott> What is it with this vault?
00:49:09 -!- monqy has joined.
00:50:09 <elliott> monqy: did you know java is interpreted and not optimised
00:50:56 <monqy> oh no are you getting into a dumb argument in ##crawl
00:52:10 <monqy> i dont even want to know how this happned
00:52:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:52:35 <elliott> im exiting the dumb argument in ##crawl
00:52:42 <elliott> me ---> the argument's exit
00:52:49 <elliott> is kyrris dumb or something
00:52:57 <elliott> im just asking because 01:51 <minqmay> this is your first time talking to kyrris isn't it
00:54:15 <zzo38> If all of the deep elf soldiers have the same spells and equipment then it makes it easy they should mix it up a bit to confuse you too
00:54:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
00:56:10 <elliott> monqy: how did your conflagration go
00:56:47 <monqy> what conflagration now
00:59:12 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:01:42 -!- Guest26299 has joined.
01:02:15 <monqy> maybe you should start being elliott
01:03:02 <Guest26299> 02:02 Error(437): elliott Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable
01:06:28 <Gregor> Guest26299: /nickserv release <nick> <pass>
01:06:48 <Guest26299> i dont think i can do it Gregor can you release it for me
01:07:18 <Gregor> So Amazon incorrectly gave me the wrong MP3. What I have labeled "Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - 77 - The Snow Maiden (Snegurochka): Aria.mp3" is in fact some awesome upbeat jazz with vibraphone solos.
01:07:20 <Gregor> Guest26299: Sure, just tell me your password.
01:07:22 <kmc> release me
01:07:32 <kmc> "what is it you want us to do?" "die..."
01:07:45 <Guest26299> Gregor: its a little known fact that chykovskee actually loved jazz
01:07:46 <kmc> unz unz unz unz unz unz unz unz
01:07:56 <Gregor> kmc: Arrrgh I remember that line but can't place it ... Star Trek or Stargate ...
01:08:07 <kmc> Gregor: Independence Day, as sampled by Infected Mushroom
01:08:29 <Guest26299> im upset that Gregor isnt taking issue with my spelling of chykofskee
01:10:05 <Gregor> What the hell do I care about transliterations of Cyrillic names?
01:10:30 <Guest26299> trying to misspell it terribly and phonetically
01:10:38 <Gregor> Damn it, it's even TAGGED as Tchaikovsky, I can't figure out who it is :'(
01:10:38 <Guest26299> its just that even the pronunciation is too exotic and complicated to admit that :(
01:10:52 <Guest26299> Gregor: feed it into musicbrainz picard
01:11:07 -!- jfischoff has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:12:52 <Gregor> Guest26299: Wow, that's pulling in a lot of deps :(
01:13:05 <Guest26299> Gregor: There are other clients, I think. Dunno if any of them do the fingerprinting stuff.
01:13:17 <Guest26299> There are various phone apps and the like that try and do the same thing.
01:13:23 <Gregor> libqt4-opengl // So glad this program needs OpenGL ... uhh, maybe Debian's 'picard' package isn't what I want X-D
01:13:28 <Guest26299> But I think Picard will have a good chance of getting it, it's just a matter of how complete their database is.
01:13:39 <Guest26299> So it's probably just pulling in all the Qt stuff.
01:13:41 <Gregor> I have programs that use Qt.
01:13:51 <Guest26299> It'll be some indirect dependency, probably :P
01:14:23 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/Pyotr%20Ilyich%20Tchaikovsky%20-%2077%20-%20The%20Snow%20Maiden%20%28Snegurochka%29:%20Aria.mp3 <-- listen to Tchaikovsky's lovely aria for vibraphone.
01:15:39 <Guest26299> You could also contact Amazon about it to ask.
01:16:14 <Guest26299> Gregor: help, i'm bobbing uncontrollably listening to this
01:17:10 <Guest26299> Gregor: wow i SERIOUSLY underestimated tchaikovsky
01:19:00 <Gregor> Picard is giving me a bullshit response, it thinks it's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvDkIR-OyYI
01:19:20 <Guest26299> Gregor: Are you sure you used the fingerprinting stuff?
01:19:35 <Guest26299> It can identify tracks by tags and length, or fingerprints or something and obviously only the latter are meaningful here.
01:19:41 <Guest26299> Check the manual, it's vaguely helpful :P
01:19:42 <Gregor> I have no idea how to do that, this UI sucks.
01:20:35 <Gregor> Aha, I see, I had clicked 'scan' and it did nothing, so I tried something out.
01:20:39 <Gregor> It did nothing because it couldn't match it :(
01:20:53 <Guest26299> What was the name of that other thing that does it... Shazam or something.
01:24:19 <zzo38> Can they include formats other than MP3 or does it have only MP3 format?
01:24:23 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:24:39 <Guest26299> Gregor: You could post it on /r/TOMT or something.
01:25:25 -!- augur has joined.
01:28:36 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is not Turing-complete since all programs will halt; it has no loops. It does have conditions, but they cannot be nested. However, write some quiz file. Perhaps, try to write a quiz file which will attempt to guess which of people on this channel you are, without asking the questions which are direct enough to answer it. (Assuming that everyone in this channel, and nobody else, can try to answer, and answer truthfully)
01:29:33 <zzo38> (The answers which users select are not logged anywhere; they are only passed in the selector string in order to perform calculations on them and send the result to the client. If you still don't like it, you can download and run the program locally.)
01:30:09 -!- Guest26299 has changed nick to elliott.
01:30:10 <zzo38> (However, there currently is no local mode. Write one if you want; I may also do so later on)
01:30:11 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:30:11 -!- elliott has joined.
01:31:40 <elliott> turns out jessica is powerless even at xl 3 and 19 hp
01:31:59 <monqy> jessica is usually a wimp
01:33:00 <monqy> oh no i misread cheibriados as creibriados help
01:34:04 <elliott> (this coincidence only makes sense if you're watching my game)
01:35:34 <elliott> does chei really boost all your stats by 15 levels or am i misunderstanding it
01:36:10 <monqy> stats are str/int/dex
01:36:24 <elliott> that's still a bit overly high isn't it
01:36:25 <monqy> if you want skill boosts go ashe
01:36:52 <elliott> i went with makhleb last game because
01:37:01 <elliott> im too young and violent for ashey
01:37:56 <monqy> you could worship xom! !
01:38:23 <elliott> it's true! it's theoretically possible for me to worship xom this gam
01:38:32 <elliott> monqy: does the ** starting piety apply to xom's interest level thing
01:39:06 <monqy> you have to know a spelle
01:39:17 <elliott> no sif muna is totally stuck up
01:39:20 <elliott> im going to blow up that altar later remind me
01:40:54 <elliott> You are wearing: f - a ring of see invisible (left claw)
01:41:41 <elliott> i should add "hits you from afar" to that list
01:42:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:44:10 <monqy> i wasn't looking what happened
01:45:39 <monqy> maybe blink over the ant?
01:45:56 <monqy> it may or may not protect you
01:45:59 <elliott> i think i'd probably die dipping around the corner
01:49:50 -!- azaq23 has joined.
01:50:57 <monqy> most body slot armoures go to +2
01:51:31 <monqy> the only exception I can think of is bardings, which are internally represented as boots
01:51:42 <monqy> oh righ tand somme body slot armours give more base ac than others
01:51:49 <monqy> like caps give +0 whereas helmets give +1
01:52:03 <elliott> wait caps dont give me any ac???
01:52:06 <monqy> but a +0 cap is better than nothing because it gives a bit of acid protection
01:52:47 <monqy> you'll probably be replacing both
01:52:56 <elliott> im going to stick with the cap for the rest of the game
01:52:57 <monqy> robe for heaver armoures and cap for hemlet
01:53:08 <monqy> what if you find a cool artefact cap!!
01:53:27 <monqy> dyrovepreva is a cap i think
01:53:35 <monqy> and hat of the alchemist is megagood cap
01:54:08 <elliott> what does it mean for thegame
01:54:16 <monqy> i think it means you can't wear it with a beak?
01:55:41 <elliott> oh no the helmet gives me one more ac
01:55:48 <elliott> does hte helmet give me acid resistance
01:57:22 <monqy> all you need is the slot covered with something for the acid protection
01:57:28 <monqy> so yeah the helmet works for head slot
01:57:51 <elliott> keep the cap around for sentimental reasons
02:08:25 <shachaf> monqy: good self self portrait
02:09:19 <shachaf> I need to start keeping track of all these self-portraits.
02:10:35 <elliott> wow i can afford that cursed ring of hunger
02:11:06 <shachaf> monqy: when is the self portraite of kmc coming out
02:11:19 <monqy> whenever i figure out what to draw on it
02:11:45 <monqy> i.e. whenever i see the true nature of kmc's self
02:12:11 <monqy> maybe i'll go on a discovery adventure journey tonight to discover it through the power of adventure and journey
02:12:28 <kmc> go into your cave and find your power animal
02:13:02 <elliott> monqy: kmc doesn't have a self
02:13:06 <shachaf> kmc: have you ever had a self portrait drawn of you
02:14:19 <shachaf> monqy: is your true self a pear
02:14:59 <shachaf> monqy: is your false self a moth
02:15:31 <shachaf> monqy: are you going to answer no to this question
02:15:56 <elliott> monqy help it's this vault
02:16:19 <elliott> wait i have no ranged attacks whatsoever
02:19:25 <monqy> oh no i was looking away
02:19:39 <monqy> why is it always when im not watching that you get in trouble
02:19:57 <elliott> those four doors open up to a scary vault right
02:20:13 <monqy> if you trrey opening them you'll rpobably gnolldie a gnolldeath
02:22:36 <monqy> feare might work unless there's still that buge
02:22:46 <monqy> might be your best bet anyway
02:23:10 <monqy> that's probably yiufe vaulte
02:29:30 <monqy> run up the staires maybe
02:35:38 <elliott> goliath beetle + crimson imp party
02:36:35 <elliott> more like giant arghball ha ha ha
02:37:30 -!- augur has joined.
02:37:49 <elliott> i should train invocations right
02:38:58 <monqy> you'll want decent invo for greater servant
02:39:23 <monqy> i forget the sucese calculatioens
02:39:29 <monqy> where by suces i mean
02:39:55 <elliott> maybe ill turn off combat and turn on armour and invocations i dont know theres so much ~conflicting advice~ about skills i see on ##crawl
02:40:09 <elliott> i don't really see how anyone manages training only one skill at a time long-term
02:40:19 <monqy> ##crawl is bad at agreeing with itself
02:40:27 <monqy> i train multiple skills at a time
02:40:30 <elliott> yeah i take what i read there with
02:40:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:40:55 <elliott> why does autopickup turn off on invis
02:40:58 <monqy> the training one skill at a time craze is from when skills were in descrete levels rather than continuouse
02:40:59 <ion> I trust everything said on this channel.
02:41:02 <elliott> to avoid picking up when fighting?
02:41:16 <elliott> (i won't turn it off though)
02:41:43 <elliott> too bad i'm too shitty at minor destruction to take them down from a disatnce
02:41:59 <ion> Someone really should make a status line item out of autopickup being off. Perhaps i’ll get around to making that patch some day.
02:42:17 <elliott> put it in the same place and colour as (Hit _) so nobody notices it
02:42:27 <coppro> ion: nethack or crawl?
02:43:51 <elliott> i mostly just let them explode on me
02:44:09 <monqy> hit them with ranged like darts or minor destruction to explod them from afar
02:44:18 <monqy> they don't matter so much as undead since then they dont confuse you
02:44:26 <elliott> hey, at least the ogre died
02:44:56 <ion> Yeah, just throw something at them or blast them with something.
02:45:35 <elliott> might switch to splint soon
02:46:19 <elliott> 4 scrolls of sky frog flesh
02:47:08 <elliott> i don't think i'm going to be able to worship chei this game
02:47:20 <monqy> spider form for clinging
02:47:24 <monqy> jokes your'e a ghoule
02:48:09 <ion> I once found a scroll named MNOSOI SHIT.
02:48:30 <elliott> hmm i should enchant something
02:48:30 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that MIT's Kerberos realm uses single DES?
02:48:35 <monqy> there's a huge learndb entry with things like that
02:48:50 <ion> Yeah, fuc da sac or something like that.
02:49:03 <ion> Awfully hilarious, you mean.
02:49:29 <ion> Err. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html seems blank.
02:50:37 <elliott> i really need to learn how to chokepoint
02:51:35 <elliott> monqy: kikubaaqudgha sounds hardcore -- oh i suddenly realise that that's kiku
02:51:44 <monqy> kikubaaqudgha is necromancy god
02:52:00 <monqy> necromancy magic, that is
02:52:08 <monqy> contrast with yredelemnul, undead friends god
02:52:40 <elliott> lesser servant you're not helping!!
02:52:54 <monqy> you have to hold the troll in place
02:53:00 <monqy> dancing around it and getting yourself hit won't help
02:54:01 <monqy> i was looking away
02:54:04 <monqy> and suddenly you dead
02:54:19 <monqy> ribbit is dangerous
02:55:00 <monqy> don;t trust the mlist, seriously
02:59:09 <elliott> i just thought my "memories of scare" were from when i was
03:04:57 <zzo38> Somewhat in here in before, I was asking something about some partial ordering (relating to multimanas in Icosahedral RPG). But we have, X is less than or equal to X, and if X less than or equal to Y and also Y less than or equal to Z, then X is also less than or equal to Z. But it looks like these two rules make a category; the first one is identity morphisms and the second one is composition of morphisms.
03:32:05 -!- Kray has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:32:58 -!- Kray has joined.
03:55:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:04:05 <zzo38> Can we make up the Crawl variant with the following options which can be turn on/off before the game starts: * Do not restrict race/class combination * Disable artifacts * Disallow revisiting dungeon levels unless you are at a dead end * Disable religion * All items are created cursed * All NPCs explode when killed * Disable permanent food * Hit points refilled upon entering new dungeon level
04:07:05 <zzo38> * Hit points do not recover over time * Power points refilled upon entering new dungeon level * Power points do not recover over time * PC's experience level never increases * Skill levels never increase * Permanent map * Use "Twonky"-style display * Adjust NPC stats * No diagonal moves * All NPCs have a tracking device to track the PC * All NPCs know PC's weaknesses
04:09:17 <zzo38> * Creatures cannot be identified * Player is penalized for standing still
04:11:33 <ion> zzo38: Feel free to.
04:11:48 <zzo38> * PC cannot step in the same tile more than once
04:12:44 <zzo38> ion: Do you like this? Do you hate this?
04:13:50 <ion> Mostly hate. :-)
04:13:58 <ion> But that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t love it.
04:14:51 <elliott> zzo38: * bad * bad * bad * terrible * awful * terrible * probably good * terrible * good * what are power points
04:17:52 <zzo38> Twonky is an old computer game, played on a grid of tiles, each of which can be floor, teleporter, or wall; two of them are marked special as the goal square and a square which causes the game to end in a draw if touched. There is also the Twonky which moves toward you each turn and you lose if its distance to you is less than 2.
04:18:37 <zzo38> You cannot see any of the tiles; but you are told the distance from your location to Twonky and distance from your location to the goal square. You can also shoot. You are told if you land on a teleporter, or bump into a wall or the edge of the grid.
04:18:48 <zzo38> (The distances are Euclidean distances)
04:19:52 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe this game doesn't call them power points; maybe they are called magic points or spell points; or does it use Vancian casting?
04:20:10 <elliott> Have you even played Crawl?
04:20:12 <zzo38> elliott: Then that is what I mean.
04:20:32 <zzo38> And, yes, I have played Crawl a while ago but I forget a lot of it. I have played it both on the computer and on the Nintendo DS.
04:20:53 <elliott> Hmm, Crawl is available for the DS?
04:21:14 <zzo38> I seem to recall it is, but I may be wrong.
04:22:46 <zzo38> Actually it does use ASCII text for most (but not all) things (I don't know why).
04:22:55 <ion> I’d *love* tiles with the tiles being simply renditions of the same Unicode characters with the same colors the terminal version uses. The benefit would be that the tiles are square and the minimap can work.
04:23:42 <ion> s/tiles/a tiles version/
04:23:48 <elliott> I don't even hate tiles, inherently; there's no reason a roguelike should be constrained to the terminal grid as it is. I just have every tileset I've seen.
04:24:14 <elliott> They disregard the most important part of a roguelike: the highly stylised, minimalistic, symbolic line-art aesthetic that derives from the technological restrictions.
04:24:27 <ion> The same characters but perfectly square would be just perfect for me.
04:24:30 <elliott> The Geoduck tilesets are probably the closest to getting it right... but unfortunately they're pretty hideous.
04:24:43 <zzo38> ion: Yes they are square; I remember that.
04:24:43 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:25:33 -!- elliott has joined.
04:25:39 <elliott> 05:23 <elliott> I don't even hate tiles, inherently; there's no reason a roguelike should be constrained to the terminal grid as it is. I just have every tileset I've seen.
04:25:39 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> They disregard the most important part of a roguelike: the highly stylised, minimalistic, symbolic line-art aesthetic that derives from the technological restrictions.
04:25:39 <elliott> 05:24 <ion> The same characters but perfectly square would be just perfect for me.
04:25:41 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> The Geoduck tilesets are probably the closest to getting it right... but unfortunately they're pretty hideous.
04:25:43 <elliott> 05:24 <elliott> ion: I think you'd find just making them square might leave a bit too much horizontal space to be aesthetically pleasing.
04:26:46 <ion> Just scaling the glyphs without respecting the original aspect ratio works.
04:27:00 <ion> (I’ve tried that with PuTTY which supports that.)
04:27:31 <elliott> That would do horrible things to the glyphs.
04:27:59 <elliott> ion: By the way, what's your definition of "roguelike"?
04:28:18 <ion> roguelike, a. 1. like Rogue
04:28:35 <elliott> Now do it again without using the word "Rogue">
04:29:44 <ion> Turn-based, random world, …
04:30:14 <elliott> The "..." is the cheating part :
04:30:54 <elliott> Mine is something like "A turn-based role-playing game that takes place in a mostly-randomised grid world."
04:31:02 <elliott> That doesn't quite capture the you-vs-everything-else aspect, though.
04:31:35 <monqy> you vs everything else is common but not really something that makes a roguelike a roguelike imo
04:32:31 <elliott> monqy: Yeah, fair enough. I was just thinking that e.g. giving Pokemon a randomised world and making it turn-based wouldn't make it a roguelike.
04:32:52 <elliott> (Or maybe it would? I don't think so, but maybe changing the graphics to glyphs would be enough to sway my opinion. :p)
04:33:07 <ion> I don’t find Crawl’s style where almost everyone else is 0) your enemy and 1) an ally with everyone else the best way.
04:33:28 <monqy> graphics fall in the "common for roguelikes but not something that makes a roguelike a roguelike" bin for me
04:33:50 <ion> If you meet a random ogre and a random hydra, why couldn’t the hydra be an enemy of the ogre as well? Take care of the hydra together and then perhaps the ogre notices you have some nice stuff it would like to have.
04:33:57 <elliott> monqy: Right, that was facetious, but it's something that affects my gut reaction.
04:34:05 <monqy> ion: crawl devs don't like that sort of stuff
04:34:11 <elliott> If you show me a grid of tiles with a @ moving about in it in turn-based fashion I'll think "roguelike".
04:34:27 <ion> Or perhaps it finds you a bit too formidable and prefers to try not to provoke you.
04:34:38 <elliott> ion: Yeah, I don't really like the "MONSTER TEAM" thing.
04:34:54 <elliott> An ogre wouldn't exactly queue up behind a bat and a rat to wait to have a go at you.
04:35:11 <elliott> OTOH, I can imagine that making monsters purely self-serving would just result in a dungeon full of blood and corpses.
04:35:32 <monqy> i forget why the crawl devs don't like monsters fighting each other, or maybe it was just the outspoken opionionful devs that didn't like it
04:35:40 <monqy> i.e. dpeg didn't like it, and he really didn't like it
04:36:57 <monqy> opinions was his job (he didn't touch the code) and he sure had a lot of it
04:37:03 <monqy> some of his opinions were good
04:37:10 <elliott> wait how are you a "dev" if you don't touch the code
04:37:18 <elliott> isn't the job title "loudmouth"
04:38:21 <monqy> i forget exactly how many of his opinions were good/bad but
04:41:48 <elliott> monqy: you should name my roguelike
04:41:52 <elliott> something nice and misspelled
04:41:58 <elliott> can you make a word that's a misspelling of itself
04:43:00 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
04:43:18 -!- monqy has joined.
04:44:03 <elliott> monqy: i had no idea there were so many angband variants
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:38 <monqy> i forget exactly how many of his opinions were good/bad but
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> monqy: you should name my roguelike
04:44:23 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> something nice and misspelled
04:44:25 <elliott> 05:41 <elliott> can you make a word that's a misspelling of itself
04:44:47 <elliott> "Animeband is an animé-themed variant of Angband, with references to dozens of different animé series and video games. Its primary language is Japanese, although versions are later ported into English." "For example, races include DBZ Saiyajins and Androids, Moogles from the Final Fantasy series, and 'Hententmons' (a combination of hentai tentacle beasts and Pokémon)." thank you, RogueBasin
04:46:16 <elliott> ugh i had a nice implementation of this function but I've forgotten it
04:47:22 <elliott> monqy: what's a nice implementation of (Monad f) => (a -> f b) -> f (Maybe a) -> f (Maybe b)
04:50:41 <ion> @type \f xs -> maybe (return Nothing) (fmap Just . f) =<< xs
04:50:41 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) a1. (Monad m, Functor m) => (a1 -> m a) -> m (Maybe a1) -> m (Maybe a)
04:50:44 <elliott> istr the solution involves >>= and liftM
04:52:30 <elliott> (Monad f) => f (Maybe (f a)) -> f (Maybe a)
04:52:36 <elliott> which I think is what lead me to the nice solution last time
04:54:15 <zzo38> It would be the case that the high score table would not be kept if any of the options I have specified are adjusted; unless you created a seperate high score table for the specific set of options.
04:54:33 <elliott> monqy: did you see zzo38's suggestions for crawl
04:54:56 <monqy> i liked a lot of them but probably they wouldn't work in crawl
04:55:01 <monqy> because crawl is crawl
04:55:38 <zzo38> I do remember when playing the game, that I have wanted some race/class combinations which are not available; there were also some races and some classes which I have wanted to use which did not existing in that game.
04:55:56 <monqy> most race/class combinations are selectable in crawl
04:56:11 <elliott> the only ones you can't select are impossible in-game right
04:56:11 <monqy> the only ones that aren't are things like demigod priests since demigods can't worship gods
04:56:20 <monqy> a few redundant ones are unselectable too i think
04:56:29 <monqy> and things that depend on items you can't use
04:56:37 <monqy> mostly this applies to felids
04:56:48 <elliott> you forgot to say ha ha ha felids
04:57:09 <zzo38> I would want to be able to select redundant ones and ones which have unusable features anyways; they should simply be highlighted in a different color to warn you
04:58:12 <elliott> crawl already highlights terrbible combinations
04:58:53 <zzo38> (>>= maybe (return Nothing) (fmap Just))
04:59:06 <elliott> zzo38: Yeah, that's what I came up with too.
04:59:10 <elliott> I swear I had something nicer. :(
05:00:34 <zzo38> What did you call it? Is "joinJust" OK?
05:01:39 <elliott> I didn't call it anything, I inlined it at its only use site. :p
05:01:59 <monqy> and you lost it :'(
05:02:56 <elliott> Okay, how about f (Maybe (a -> b)) -> f b -> f (Maybe a)?
05:03:06 -!- augur has joined.
05:03:10 <elliott> Nice! But for Applicative f only this time :(
05:03:38 <zzo38> (I was answering your original question; not this new one.)
05:05:18 <elliott> I take it that's Traversable's sequence?
05:07:55 <ion> @type \f xs -> sequence . fmap f =<< xs
05:07:56 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a a1. (Monad m) => (a1 -> m a) -> m [a1] -> m [a]
05:08:08 <elliott> sequence . fmap f, aka mapM f
05:08:38 <ion> Ah, indeed.
05:10:06 <elliott> monqy: should i play corwael
05:10:10 <elliott> that's my roguelike's name
05:10:17 <elliott> excellent, i'm misspellign it already
05:10:28 <elliott> you have to kill all the scots
05:10:37 <zzo38> I think you may also be misspelling "misspelling" too, isn't it?
05:11:16 <elliott> im also misorthographising "it's" and "I'm"
05:12:32 <elliott> god i really hate the earlygame
05:12:52 <monqy> all the better to autuomat it
05:12:56 <elliott> im going to make a mini-roguelike where you start out fully equipped and statted
05:13:17 <elliott> so it's just fune endgame dying action all the way
05:13:17 <monqy> doomrl has something kind of like that
05:13:43 <zzo38> O, and then you have to decrease your stats as you advance an experience level.........
05:13:54 <monqy> angel of confidence and angel of overconfidence challenge games, at which you start out 1/3 and 2/3 through the game already, respectively, with some gear to match
05:13:55 <elliott> zzo38: a reverse roguelike? :D
05:13:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:14:12 <monqy> and i think some odd angbands have modes where you start at the bottom and have to get out
05:14:18 <elliott> monqy: mine would be more like
05:14:32 <monqy> 22:13:43 < zzo38> O, and then you have to decrease your stats as you advance an experience level.........
05:14:34 <elliott> tries to present you with a game of nethack that has already been played up to the planes or whatever
05:14:38 <monqy> ive heard of a roguelike like that
05:14:42 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you could reverse experience levels in some game possibly.
05:14:44 <monqy> (wrt what zzo said)
05:14:47 <monqy> i forget what it is called
05:14:51 <monqy> and I don't thinkl i've ever played it
05:15:03 <elliott> people who say wrt are good people
05:15:32 <zzo38> John while James had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
05:15:38 <elliott> crawl monsters that need to be removed: bats, phantoms, this list was longer but i forgot the other items
05:15:56 <monqy> there are a lot more
05:16:04 <elliott> *that need to be removed that i have encountered
05:16:11 <zzo38> elliott: OK, then add one option to my list which allows you to remove bats and phantoms and the other ones
05:16:12 <monqy> mcrawl gets rid of all the annoying water and lava monsters by way of not having water or lava
05:16:30 <elliott> 06:16 <Henzell> amulet of rage[1/1]: Allows you to go {berserk}, and may extend the duration on kills. Chance of success depends on evocations.
05:16:34 <elliott> this amulet will not be good for me
05:16:49 <monqy> imps are no good either
05:16:51 <elliott> _e - a cursed -2 ring of protection (left claw)
05:17:05 <elliott> monqy: yeah imps should go but they're less annoying than phantoms
05:17:24 <monqy> you haven't seen them but
05:17:43 <zzo38> I would also make up a game that, if any wearable item is cursed, the curse only disallows you to remove it and not any other effect. Non-wearable items which are cursed differ in different ways.
05:17:45 <elliott> actually worms just need nerfing
05:17:50 <ion> elliott: I’m bored of watching your ghoul games. Play a DESu. :-(
05:17:53 <monqy> worsms and golaioth betls nee dtogo
05:17:54 <elliott> to have a less powerful attack
05:18:06 <monqy> elliott: play a desu so ion stops complainign about it
05:18:10 <elliott> ion: i might play a strong melee race at some point
05:18:26 <elliott> i don't want to play fancy stuff until i've won something because otherwise i'll just keep hopping forever
05:18:43 <monqy> maybe you'll hate desu
05:18:47 <monqy> good chance you'll hate desu
05:18:59 <elliott> monqy: ill hate desu because of the acronym it doesnt matter what the play itself is like
05:19:14 <monqy> then play musu (ha ha ha)
05:20:14 <zzo38> I would also have no autocursing items (although it might be the case that some items are more likely to be created cursed)
05:20:47 <elliott> monqy: is there a way to force rest/travel even if an X is nearby
05:21:01 <monqy> elliott: luau scripts
05:21:26 <monqy> musu is one of the "infamously boring characters"
05:22:32 <elliott> 06:22 <Henzell> musu[1/1]: Most exciting race/class combination ever! Wait 300k turns, go to next Dlvl, repeat. If you have a boring beetle zombie pet, you should name it "MuSu".
05:24:15 <monqy> musu isn't actually like that but
05:24:30 <elliott> what's it like i don't know what
05:24:44 <elliott> why does mu make it more boringer
05:24:59 <monqy> you get free channeling
05:25:06 <elliott> so you just sit there spamming summons until things die?
05:25:17 <monqy> that's the gist of it
05:26:14 <elliott> i think this is the first time i've died to a hobgoblin
05:26:45 <monqy> personally i find summonerrs lsess boring than conjurers because there's less keywork in it
05:27:09 <monqy> about the same level of thought (not much) but easier to numb the pain
05:27:30 <zzo38> I would do it too, you can select any kind of creature in game as your character and also too many classes to list, so instead we have to make the race/class selection you type in what you want, and you can use tab-completion; if you type ? then it selects one at random, and if you push ? followed by tab then it expands to a random selection in place, which you can remove if you wish.
05:27:33 <monqy> pretty much everyone who isn't me prefers conj. over summ
05:27:37 <elliott> its not unreasonable to think that gnolls hit way too hard for things that can hit you from afar and come in packs really early on right
05:27:54 <monqy> you're probalby mishandling them a little bit
05:28:05 <elliott> my gnoll strategy is just "run" because even with a chokepoint they just wear down my hp :(
05:28:08 <monqy> they haven't been so bad for my musus
05:28:16 <monqy> and aren't mucks like
05:28:29 <elliott> your script is probably smarter than me
05:28:36 <monqy> my script is rly dumb
05:28:57 <monqy> it just comes naturally ??
05:29:30 <ion> elliott: Play a spriggan enchanter.
05:31:38 <ion> elliott: They move fast, are stealthy, don’t need to eat much and are pretty okay at enchanting.
05:31:42 <elliott> resign myself to dying to gnolle
05:32:10 <elliott> ion: yeah but that's like wildly different from everything else i've played (apart from my unserious spas diving) so
05:32:28 <monqy> branching out is good
05:32:29 <ion> You’ll get to confuse guys and stab them.
05:32:37 <elliott> monqy: not when i'm terrible at everything!
05:32:39 <zzo38> Do you know anything about what I have posted far above relating to partial orderings and categories?
05:32:47 <elliott> im trying to become less bad at things before branching out
05:33:54 <elliott> is the implication that i'm not good at anything
05:34:08 <elliott> *not going to get less bad at
05:34:41 <ion> Perhaps you’ll get better at things *by* branching out. :-)
05:34:55 <ion> You’ll have more fun.
05:35:13 <elliott> what's a nice melee race with lots of hp and str except not mibe or mifi or whatever because they're TOO MAINSTREAM
05:35:21 <monqy> play whatever ion suggests so he'll shut up
05:35:27 <ion> SpEn! DECj! DESu! TrBe!
05:35:36 <elliott> monqy: ion will never shut up
05:35:37 <monqy> ok don't play what ion says
05:35:56 <elliott> i think trbe counts as too mainstream
05:36:00 <monqy> what does str have to do with anything
05:36:00 <ion> I just want you to try a goot magic guy.
05:36:15 <elliott> literally an abbreviation for strength
05:36:31 <elliott> ion: crawl's magic seems boring
05:36:38 <ion> It’s pretty fun.
05:36:40 <monqy> it depends on what magic you're doing
05:36:44 <monqy> some people like it
05:36:47 <monqy> some people like parts of it
05:36:51 <monqy> some people don't like any of it
05:36:59 <monqy> you'll have to try each part of it for yourself
05:37:18 <elliott> or i could just unfairly disregard it
05:37:18 <ion> It’s so fun to cast ice/fire clouds with a powerful DE.
05:37:38 <monqy> clouding everything is so ugh
05:37:40 <ion> elliott: You also have to try Sprint!
05:37:46 <elliott> i did i died after 3 turns
05:37:47 <monqy> doing the same spell routines to everything is uuuugh
05:37:57 <elliott> i would play a summoner except
05:38:00 <elliott> do you get to summon straight away
05:38:17 <elliott> how different are the first few dlvls playwise to like
05:38:19 <elliott> everything i've been doing
05:39:19 <elliott> monqy: that's greyed out!!!
05:39:27 <monqy> you want a noongrey?
05:39:35 <elliott> you're trolling me so i end up with problem and then i will mad :(
05:39:46 <elliott> wait ion is here he'll take that non-ironically
05:39:52 <zzo38> Are you allowed to select one that are greyed out?
05:39:54 <elliott> monqy: felid is non-grey maybe i should go with felid!!!
05:40:01 <elliott> "crawl devs don't like this"
05:40:07 <ion> DE has the most MP at start IIRC.
05:40:09 <elliott> monqy: ogres don't sound like they'd be very good at magic!!!
05:40:16 <monqy> elliott: ogres have +2 spellcasting
05:40:21 <zzo38> I realized that what I wrote above about partial ordering as a category is correct; I look on Wikipedia and yes it is in there the same thing I was thinking of.
05:40:28 <monqy> elliott: JOKES' THEY HAVE -3 IN EVERY SCHOOL
05:40:29 <elliott> why don't ogres have lots of health
05:40:36 <monqy> ogres have lots of health jeeze
05:40:50 <elliott> monqy: your joke is mean :'(
05:40:51 <monqy> you didn't even try?
05:40:59 <monqy> you should at leastt
05:41:07 <elliott> not before trying something less hideously terrible!!!
05:41:14 <monqy> it's not hideously terrible!
05:41:23 <monqy> wanna play ddsu? have fun
05:41:51 <elliott> ill play musu if yhou don't save me in the next 10 seconds
05:41:59 <monqy> anyway pick whatever i don't care. just don't play vpsu
05:42:12 <ion> Why not just pick DE? They’re good at magic.
05:42:26 <elliott> monqy: guess what i just focussed
05:42:39 <zzo38> (if it is permitted!)
05:42:40 <monqy> elliott: vp has the most annoying hunger mechanic in the game
05:42:48 <elliott> is it the potion of blood thing
05:43:11 <monqy> you have to manage your blood level for resists/regeneration/etc
05:43:16 <elliott> anyway i cant play DESu because itll result in terrible people making terrible jokes based on the acronym sory
05:43:25 <monqy> elliott: i won't make joke
05:43:36 <elliott> its not you im worried about!!!
05:43:37 <ion> That’s not nearly as funny as HOMo.
05:43:54 <zzo38> elliott: Then modify the acronym and recompile
05:43:59 <monqy> hey you know what'[s funny
05:44:09 <elliott> ha ha ha ha haah ah ah ah ha haha its hilarious because its a word
05:44:23 <quintopia> thats the only one i can figure out
05:45:51 <elliott> monqy: ok listen ill do ogsu if you come clean about how terrible it is
05:45:51 <monqy> you can play ogsu now
05:46:02 <ion> elliott: m
05:46:04 <monqy> it's not terrible!
05:46:11 <elliott> 06:40 <monqy> elliott: JOKES' THEY HAVE -3 IN EVERY SCHOOL
05:46:21 <zzo38> Category theory does a lot of things!!
05:46:32 <ion> Spellcasting is probably more important and it’s positive for ogres.
05:47:06 <monqy> turn off dodge and stealth
05:47:20 <monqy> and use manual mode of course
05:47:22 <ion> Switch to manual and perhaps use Spellcasting * and Summonings +
05:47:34 <monqy> elliott: z key to spell
05:47:34 <elliott> ion: summonings are -3 apt though :'(
05:47:46 <monqy> elliott: it matters less than you'd think
05:47:50 <elliott> uhhh should i still melee small things
05:47:53 <zzo38> Kan extensions also does a lot of things!!
05:47:54 <ion> z? lists spells, M memorizes new ones.
05:47:58 <ion> You shouldn’t melee.
05:48:07 <monqy> but use a giant spiked club!!!!
05:48:13 <ion> Just spammals now.
05:48:21 <monqy> for just startinfg off use spoammals
05:48:22 <elliott> i don't have giant spiked club
05:48:23 <monqy> you can train a weapon later
05:49:23 <ion> Rest to get Spammals!
05:49:33 <ion> Rest to get more MP
05:49:44 <ion> before 5’ing to kobolds
05:49:44 <monqy> elliott: go musu if you don't wnat hungre
05:49:50 <ion> Err. I’m too tired for IRC.
05:49:53 <ion> before o’ing to kobolds
05:50:12 <elliott> kobolds have an ok hunger mechanism
05:51:04 <monqy> a wall of summons is kind of like hp
05:51:28 <elliott> what should i do when i summon a bat urgh
05:51:31 <elliott> if i recast i run out of mp
05:52:45 <kmc> unix signals are an unholy clusterfuck
05:52:46 <elliott> i have no idea how to play this properly
05:52:50 <ion> Just spammals with all your MP.
05:53:03 <ion> And switch places with them so they get to surround the guy.
05:53:20 <ion> kmc: No kidding
05:53:33 <kmc> really the whole idea of POSIX is absurd at face value
05:53:49 <zzo38> kmc: Why do you hate UNIX signals?
05:53:50 <kmc> that one could take a bunch of different operating systems that sort of have some shared history
05:53:58 <kmc> and make them act almost like the same operating system
05:54:24 <kmc> the remarkable thing about a dancing bear is not how well it dances, but that it dances at all
05:54:48 <monqy> elliott: now is when you learn
05:54:57 <ion> elliott: You can tell your spammals to attack someone in their FoV with t
05:55:07 <ion> elliott: M to learn new spells.
05:55:18 <ion> Ok, you can’t yet.
05:55:35 <elliott> kmc: hi, welcome to ##crawl!
05:55:42 <kmc> zzo38: where to start
05:55:49 <kmc> let's start with every table and list in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/signal.7.html
05:56:30 <kmc> also the sheer number of signal-related syscalls
05:56:37 <kmc> linux has a syscall now named rt_tgsigqueueinfo
05:59:03 <elliott> monqy: is su always like this
06:00:04 <monqy> just added a bunch more options to squarelos' randomiser
06:00:17 <monqy> including: messages_at_top, view_lock_x, view_lock_y
06:00:38 <monqy> also the turn display will switch between the two different types of turns
06:00:42 <monqy> so the turncount will go up and down
06:00:52 <elliott> i hope messages_at_top changes less frequently
06:00:56 <monqy> and it toggles -ctele display too
06:01:27 * elliott spams space on the CDO game list
06:01:44 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:01:55 -!- calamari has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:02:05 <elliott> im upset that not all the colours of the stat things change though
06:02:17 <elliott> that turn count is just perfect
06:02:41 <monqy> this time sitting up straight
06:02:52 <monqy> hunched over the back of my seat
06:03:20 <elliott> monqy: another thing you could randomise is the number of lines devoted to messages
06:03:33 <elliott> which would be especially great when it's on top
06:03:41 <elliott> because everything else would bob up and down
06:04:12 <elliott> does the language change on every turn? it seems to stay at Skermeesher for a while
06:04:25 <zzo38> A concrete category is a category that is equipped with a faithful functor to the category of sets. But, what is a category that is equipped with a fully faithful functor to the free category of a subset of its quiver (meaning, a collection of some of its morphisms)?
06:05:18 <elliott> monqy: i sent that around orc priest inner flam
06:05:49 <elliott> monqy: what are the two types of turn anyway
06:06:26 <monqy> one is how many moves you've made and the other is how long you've taken in game time
06:06:51 <ion> I prefer the latter.
06:07:00 <ion> It immediately shows how slow your hits are etc.
06:07:11 <elliott> one is a turn count and the other is a clock
06:08:24 <elliott> monqy: rip (i didn't see what happened)
06:08:32 <monqy> i feel like im getting progresisvely worse
06:08:49 <monqy> sometimes i consider playing non-muck but that's just less cool no matter how you look at it
06:09:20 <monqy> also why aren't my messages going to the top occasionally :(
06:10:10 <elliott> i think its fairly obvious that continually playing with a nigh-unusable interface and mashing with a nigh-useless script will make you worse :P
06:10:12 <ion> Is the smoke trail behind you caused by Xom?
06:11:51 <monqy> what should i play
06:12:02 <monqy> maybe something else too
06:12:36 <monqy> maybe my script doesn't work so good with feck
06:12:52 <elliott> does it work so good with anything
06:13:20 <elliott> ion: what should monqy play
06:14:19 <ion> Deep Undulate Norwegian
06:14:36 <monqy> i'll just play trck "oh well"
06:14:53 <elliott> how to make a combo funnier: append "of chei"
06:15:20 <monqy> i dont think my script knows how to not starv
06:15:40 <monqy> maybe it forgot how to eat on nonghouls
06:15:54 <monqy> nah that's definitely eating
06:16:05 <ion> Is it butchering?
06:17:49 <elliott> monqy: you should play deep dwarf skald
06:18:40 <elliott> monqy: merfolk fire elemental has to be good, right???
06:21:43 <elliott> monqy: do fire elementals get a god
06:21:50 <elliott> i know nothing about either
06:21:56 <Patashu> fire elementalists worship vehumet
06:24:01 <elliott> how come only health is changing colours now
06:25:17 <Patashu> animate skeleton looks like a fun spell
06:26:24 <zzo38> A dioid that remains a dioid if addition and multiplication are swapped and zero and one are swapped.
06:27:50 <zzo38> Is that something like topology?
06:29:41 <zzo38> Do any mathematics known here? Maybe oerjan? Maybe someone else?
06:29:44 <Patashu> the skeletons from animate skeletons never time out?
06:30:53 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:31:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:33:41 <ion> Lava snakes
06:33:52 <monqy> script got me deep into some serious lava snake trouble, i underestimated them on my escape trip
06:34:11 <ion> Lava snakes are equally nasty IRL.
06:35:03 <elliott> monqy: have you considered you haven't been getting progressively worst, just your script has
06:35:46 <monqy> but i require my script or crawl is unplayable
06:36:03 <Patashu> what does monqy's script do
06:36:05 <elliott> not true, you can also dive!!! or maybe you considered that unplayable but you didn't seem to
06:36:10 <elliott> Patashu: explore and fight and eat
06:36:19 <elliott> he has it bound to spacebar
06:36:31 <elliott> oh it also traverses stairs!
06:37:19 <Patashu> it clears D:1 for you etc?
06:37:25 <elliott> it clears everything for you
06:37:32 <elliott> except it's dumb and gives up a lot
06:37:35 <elliott> and monqy has to get it out of its mess
06:37:42 <elliott> so it's more like 1/3 a bot
06:38:57 <Patashu> Danswan's ghost (powerful Tengu Conjurer) comes into view
06:39:01 <Patashu> hmm I wonder what spells it knows
06:39:34 <Patashu> it died before casting anything
06:40:44 <elliott> monqy: are you going to play one of the combos i suggested ;(
06:41:01 <elliott> deep dwarf skald or merfolk fire elemental (whichever makes less sense)
06:41:11 <monqy> i don't wnat either of those
06:41:49 <elliott> that's why i suggested them
06:42:11 <monqy> guess i'll do ddsk
06:42:44 <elliott> i don't even know what skalds do
06:43:42 <elliott> monqy: i like how deep dwarves just die slowly
06:44:08 -!- aloril has joined.
06:44:14 <elliott> abbreviated one of your inventory items as "hy"
06:47:03 <elliott> 07:45 <Robot2600> hunger should be seriously nerfed 07:46 <ophanim> Robot2600: why? no one starves to death
06:47:15 <elliott> (i say it in here so nobody can disagree with me)
06:47:29 <elliott> (that's the kind of abuse you can achieve when you ADMINISTRATE A POPULAR WIKI!!!)
06:49:52 <elliott> monqy: you converted to chei?
06:50:13 <elliott> does anyone have good abbreviations for "consequent" and "antecedent"
06:51:00 <monqy> conseque, antecede
06:51:02 <elliott> oh hmm i was misusing consequent and antecedent
06:51:11 <elliott> what would you call p, a and b in if p then a else b
06:51:19 <elliott> p is the consequent i guess
06:51:45 <elliott> a might be the consequent but then i'm not sure what b would be and this is kind of silly
06:57:34 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
07:00:30 <elliott> monqy: what soids fk okkr p ekt
07:02:34 <elliott> monqy: shoudl i play sprint
07:03:20 <monqy> it has different problems from normal crawl
07:04:26 <elliott> sprint opinions being a thing
07:05:08 <monqy> they're all different!
07:05:24 <monqy> they're all different!
07:06:15 <elliott> how do you not have opinions on them come on you hate something about almost every given aspect of crawl
07:06:40 <monqy> i have opinions on each sprint and they're incomparable
07:06:56 <elliott> yes but do any of them suck
07:07:04 <monqy> depends on what you mean by suck
07:07:06 <ion> Hmm. I think i’ve won one of the sprints, but i don’t remember which one.
07:07:14 <monqy> also apparently the crawl light server has a version with a bug where corpse sacrifices don't delete the corpses so you can gian infinite piety from them
07:07:34 <elliott> monqy: you're awful just recommend me a sprint!!!
07:07:34 <monqy> (bugged implementation of sacrifices sacrificing everything in los)
07:07:39 <ion> Crawl light server?
07:07:53 <monqy> elliott: all of them, in rotation
07:07:57 <elliott> http://store.barackobama.com/joe-biden-can-holder.html thanks biden
07:08:02 <ion> Huh, i hadn’t encountered Crawl light before.
07:08:03 <elliott> monqy: which should i start with
07:08:24 <monqy> elliott: cheers champ
07:08:33 <elliott> ill be a felid abyssal knight
07:09:59 <monqy> im watchieng crawl lgiht game
07:10:28 <monqy> telnet light.bitprayer.com
07:10:35 <monqy> be sure to mess with your TERM if it's bad
07:10:42 -!- aloril has joined.
07:10:53 <elliott> what's your password i want to send messages
07:11:20 <zzo38> Do you need a password to send messages?
07:11:31 <elliott> i need monqy's specifically
07:12:11 <monqy> name squarelos, password robin
07:12:20 <monqy> theres only one active game and it's idle :(
07:12:30 <monqy> (i just registerd there)
07:12:32 <elliott> it wasn't idle 58 seconds ago!
07:12:39 <monqy> (the ond server deid or something??)
07:12:48 <monqy> (so my config is just defaults)
07:13:01 <monqy> maybe you can try crawl light !
07:13:02 <elliott> can i play squarelos (i mean on cod (im not actually serious about this because i couldnt hope to live up to the artform you have taken crawl playing to))
07:13:04 <monqy> oh hey it's unidle
07:13:15 <monqy> yeah anyone can play squarelos
07:13:18 <monqy> just don't mess with the config
07:13:30 <elliott> i already said it wasn't serious!!!
07:13:48 <elliott> so far crawl light looks like crawl
07:13:54 <ion> Does this seriously not tell which Sprint i played? http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/ion/morgue-ion-20110721-190348.txt
07:14:11 <monqy> ion: violet keep of menkaure
07:14:45 <ion> Does it say that somewhere?
07:14:46 <monqy> a few things look different from normal crawl
07:14:50 <monqy> like it has a glow bar
07:15:09 <monqy> the experience system is a bit different
07:15:37 <elliott> monqy: i cant decide if my roguelike should use 256colours or not
07:15:46 <monqy> whatever you want!
07:15:55 <qfr> How about 2^32 colours
07:16:10 <elliott> monqy: what does yours do!!!
07:16:13 <elliott> qfr: terminals can't do that!!!
07:16:21 <qfr> Make an OpenGL client
07:16:26 <monqy> elliott: undecided
07:16:27 <ion> So write a new terminal which will be a requirement for your new roguelike.
07:16:31 <qfr> Also, are your roguelikes multiplayer?
07:16:33 <qfr> Do they have PvP?
07:16:39 <elliott> multiplayer roguelikes don't
07:18:05 <ion> What about Crawl light warrants a fork?
07:18:27 <elliott> im having trouble thinking of much a roguelike would require beyond sdl
07:18:37 -!- augur has joined.
07:18:43 <elliott> unless you can reuse an existing opengl engine or whatever it
07:18:59 <qfr> SDL is icky
07:19:15 <ion> Meh, better use a 2D API that’s an abstraction over OpenGL. You’ll get much better 2D acceleration.
07:19:26 <elliott> ion: it's turn-based... but yeah im not defending sdl it's just
07:19:35 <qfr> ion that remark made little sense
07:19:47 <monqy> it made perfect sense
07:19:50 <ion> for stuff like vector graphics, scaling etc.
07:19:51 <elliott> ion: messing with a pixel buffer is a hell of a lot less pain than writing opengl crap
07:19:57 <zzo38> I suggest use a different frontend program as backend program, so that you can use it on a frontend for standard terminal, or a different one with mouse and icons, etc
07:19:59 <elliott> especially if you use the programmable pipeline like you're meant to
07:20:22 <elliott> are there any reasonably complete 2d apis that use opengl under the hood?
07:20:31 <elliott> like that aren't at the level of "game framework"
07:20:59 <ion> I’d hope so, but i haven’t researched what’s available.
07:21:36 <elliott> anyway i might go for a graphically-rendered non-terminal thing i dunno
07:22:23 <elliott> i kind of like the imposed 80x24 constraint you get if you go terminal-based and have moral standards though
07:22:24 <ion> Cairo supports OpenGL, but i don’t know whether it would be useful for a game.
07:22:40 <elliott> also: font rendering is "a pain"
07:22:47 <elliott> with a terminal everyone gets to use font rendering they like, more or less
07:22:56 <monqy> everything is a pain
07:22:58 <elliott> if i do it myself text will probably be kinda yucky
07:23:27 <monqy> my reasons for terminal would be: font, terminal, online play, termcaste
07:23:33 <elliott> i've preferred a graphical display occasionally because you can improve things like new monster discoverability with it
07:23:55 <elliott> like it would actually be useful for brief stats to appear as a "tooltip" style thing when a new monster appears
07:24:03 <elliott> you can't really do that with a terminal
07:24:24 <elliott> monqy: wrt online play/termcasting, I have a fairly solid plan for that already
07:24:56 <elliott> since I'm abstracting backends, the engine will explicitly keep track of "what the player knows/sees"; i.e. taking into account LOS and invisible monsters (if I have those) and so on
07:25:02 <elliott> as a separate entity from the game world itself
07:25:09 <elliott> and it will also keep track of how it /changes/ from one turn to the next
07:25:13 <ion> Browser-based is an alternative, too.
07:25:19 <elliott> so you can turn that into a network protocol really easily
07:25:26 <elliott> by simply streaming the changes
07:25:30 <elliott> and that can be plugged in to the frontend locally
07:25:41 <elliott> so you can use your client with your settings to connect to an external server
07:25:49 <elliott> and similarly you can "termcast" by playing locally and also streaming the same stuff
07:26:02 <elliott> and play on a server by having your client connect to a server and send commands/render the changes it gets
07:26:12 <elliott> (which the server then also sends to anyone who wants to watch)
07:26:25 <ion> That stream with timestamps also works as a saved “termcast”.
07:26:25 <elliott> monqy: it does require that people who want to watch have to have the game which is a disadvantage but
07:26:36 <monqy> abstracting backens is something i'd do even if i only planned on implementing one backend but
07:26:38 <elliott> it's better than a termcast because you can e.g.
07:26:47 <monqy> uuugh writing multiple backends and networking stuff
07:27:02 <elliott> it'd be really nice to be able to look at someone's inventory
07:27:06 <elliott> even if they don't choose to
07:27:27 <ion> And you’ll be able to freely look at the inventory, abilities etc. while observing.
07:27:34 <ion> Oh, you just said that. :-D
07:28:02 <elliott> basically as long as you have a clear separation of game world / known game state / commands that have an in-game effect (like changing a training schedule or whatever) vs. commands that are just interface commands (opening/closing inventory, examining items, etc.)
07:28:18 <elliott> then you get recording/broadcasting/server play for free
07:28:29 <elliott> oh *you also have to track deltas
07:28:32 <elliott> rather than just mutating things in-place
07:28:38 <elliott> monqy: well, for cheap, at leat
07:29:11 <ion> Perhaps also not make everything about the game based on convoluted logic written in low-level C code spread over a bunch of files under ellawl-ref/source.
07:29:20 <elliott> monqy: it *is* nice that people can play online and always get the latest version of the game though
07:29:28 <elliott> which you lose with this, you have to update it yourself
07:30:08 <elliott> monqy: i *could* implement all this and then just only write a terminal backend and put it behind a mosh server
07:30:17 <elliott> but it feels like such a waste given the advantages
07:30:25 <elliott> the recordings would be useful even if i did that
07:30:30 <elliott> since you could watch them with the server's copy of the game
07:30:36 <elliott> and still get all the nice seeking tools and so on
07:30:39 <ion> elliott: Well, not very C++-like C++, but it’s C++ FSVO C++. :-P
07:30:43 <elliott> (and watch with your preferred charset!)
07:31:02 <ion> or your preferred client, such as one on a smartphone or a browser-based one.
07:31:11 <ion> or a terminal client on a VT100.
07:31:16 <elliott> ion: you lost track of what i was saying.
07:31:24 <elliott> you should read everything i say before replying :p
07:31:36 <elliott> 08:29 <elliott> monqy: so, i'm torn
07:31:36 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> monqy: i *could* implement all this and then just only write a terminal backend and put it behind a mosh server
07:31:37 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> but it feels like such a waste given the advantages
07:31:38 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> actually having said that
07:31:40 <elliott> 08:30 <elliott> the recordings would be useful even if i did that
07:31:40 <ion> Sorry, i’m very tired and have a bit of trouble concentrating. :-)
07:31:51 <elliott> tiredness excuses don't work on me!
07:32:00 <elliott> also, I never read anything anyone else says before replying
07:32:07 <elliott> i'm just complaining because complaining is grreat
07:33:30 <elliott> monqy: i don't really plan to have releases so
07:33:35 <elliott> i do want everyone just playing the latest VCS version
07:33:46 <elliott> which makes the you-have-to-install-it-locally thing difficult
07:33:49 <monqy> i haven t decided about releasinge
07:33:57 <monqy> dont want to write autoupdates
07:34:16 <elliott> it would never work on e.g. linux where there's a billion things that can go wrong compiling
07:34:35 <elliott> monqy: what i could do is make the backend a separate executable
07:34:54 <elliott> all it has to handle is rendering a grid and messages and a stat display and do whatever fancy things like tooltips i add
07:35:00 <elliott> it wouldn't need updating when the game updated
07:35:03 <elliott> but that'd make things like
07:35:06 <elliott> viewing inventory of a game you're watching hard
07:36:04 <elliott> i still haven't decided whether to go for 16 or 256 colours oops
07:36:25 <kmc> how about 88 colors!
07:36:48 <monqy> for terminal im torn. for nonterm i;d just go all coloiurs all the time
07:37:01 <kmc> no two pixels should ever have the same color
07:37:19 <monqy> that's what happens when you go all coloiurs all the time
07:38:12 <kmc> there should be an artform where you pick a 256-color palette and then draw a 16x16 image which uses each color exactly once
07:38:57 <elliott> there's a program that converts images to huge ones that use an entire 16-bit pallette
07:39:04 <elliott> but still look basically the same (except awful)
07:39:40 <monqy> oh hey elynae's playing sprint iii
07:39:48 <monqy> now's your chance to see sprint in motion
07:40:12 <elliott> that crawl light game was exceedingly dull
07:41:16 <elliott> "sprinting is tough worke"
07:41:35 <elliott> monqy: the thing with 256 colours is that picking colours for tiles becomes ~impossible
07:41:43 <elliott> it allows for things like pretty shading for like
07:41:51 <monqy> i think i've only won sprints 1 and 5 :( but i've won them a lote
07:41:52 <elliott> or heat (if theiy'res fyre)
07:42:08 <elliott> pseudorandom shades of grey for walls and floor!!!
07:42:56 <monqy> the trick to picking tiles colours is restrict yourself to say a 16 coloure palaet and then vary the coloures at rune time based on conditieons
07:43:13 <monqy> or just a random variation
07:43:27 <elliott> just make everything rainbow
07:43:33 <elliott> every tile is flashing rainbow
07:43:58 <kmc> http://throbs.net/fun/swf.asp?rgb.swf (seizure warning)
07:45:25 <elliott> have you noticed how it stops seeming to have colour after a while
07:45:30 <elliott> the colour becomes "flashing"
07:49:12 <elliott> monqy: ive solved my colour problem "the solution is tiles" (guffaws)
07:52:58 <elliott> monqy: maybe ill colour everything programmatically
07:53:10 <elliott> how do they decide tile colours for nethack and dcss anyway
07:53:17 <elliott> well i guess nobody knows about the former
07:53:56 <monqy> i don't know exactly how brogue does it but not everything of the same tile has the same colour so it definitely does something
07:54:11 <elliott> yeah seeing brogue screenshot is what made me think maybe i should 256
07:54:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:55:50 <elliott> monqy: should i play brogue can brogue be played online
07:56:02 <monqy> i dunno if there are any brogue servers
07:56:34 <monqy> and yes i recommend playing brogue it was fun until i got sick of it
07:56:48 <elliott> ie does it have ~terminal playe~
07:57:02 <monqy> there are least used to be terminalmod but it's uuugly
07:57:24 <monqy> (and the faketerm mode is pretty)
07:57:47 <elliott> how can i play any game without broadcasting it!!!
07:58:02 <monqy> try the terminalmode
08:03:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:10:15 <kmc> Ubuntu 13.04 Radical Radish
08:14:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:16:14 <cheater_> 13.04 would be Severe Skidmarks
08:17:09 <cheater_> 16.10 would be Zygohistomorphic Zebromorphism
08:17:52 <olsner> 12.10 is Quantal Quetzal
08:18:29 <cheater_> right, the english alphabet is different
08:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, don't interact with cheater_; that way, he'll fuck off quicker.
08:19:54 <cheater_> i'll get some pop-corn and hang around
08:22:02 <kmc> cheater_++ for Zygohistomorphic Zebromorphism
08:22:21 -!- elliott has left ("this channel is terrible").
08:22:48 <kmc> cheater_ says the most innocuous thing and everyone flips out and gets butthurt
08:22:54 <kmc> he is such a good troll that he doesn't need to do any trolling
08:26:26 <kmc> sounds good
08:27:34 <cheater_> so apparently software patents have been disabled from functioning in an EU court
08:27:49 <cheater_> waiting for the rest of the world to follow
08:28:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
08:33:26 <Taneb> I think it's dwarf fortress time
08:35:26 -!- mtve has joined.
08:45:30 <Sgeo> Taneb, I my me mine I my me mine I my me mine I my me mine
08:45:39 <Sgeo> (Yes, that has a very tenuous connection to DF)
08:46:18 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
09:06:40 <cheater_> i'm probably too stupid to play dwarf fortress, i keep on losing right away.
09:11:39 <Sgeo> cheater_, there are guides...
10:02:22 <kmc> in g++ 2.x you could define operator?:
10:06:47 -!- cheater__ has joined.
10:10:37 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:14:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:37:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:29:08 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).
11:33:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:01:38 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:08:32 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
12:10:47 -!- azaq23 has joined.
12:11:33 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:15:33 -!- MoALTz__ has joined.
12:18:55 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:26:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:30:43 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:21:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
13:50:01 <ais523> <STL> I seriously have no idea what the mingw.org guys are thinking. Their installer has an installer.
13:53:24 <ais523> meanwhile, I have decided that because all existing free wave-to-score programs suck, I need to write my own
13:54:58 <ais523> I'm making decent progress, by using a novel approach I'm not sure has been tried yet
13:55:04 <ais523> it's based on /not/ doing fourier transforms
14:10:16 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .).
14:12:54 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
14:14:07 <AnotherTest> I created a page on your wiki, http://esolangs.org/wiki/~English, about a language I designed. Is it okay?
14:18:39 <ais523> AnotherTest: it's OK to document an esolang even if you're the only person who knows about it
14:28:05 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:31:10 <cheater__> Sgeo: yeah, but i think playing by guides is sort of boring
14:31:13 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:31:21 <cheater__> Sgeo: it's less playing and more work
14:31:35 <Taneb> Then you will NEVER BE ABLE TO PLAY DWARF FORTRESS
14:43:04 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:52:43 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:53:04 <Taneb> Can someone check out Lowgate again and see if it's correctly possibly-turing-complete now?
14:53:16 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Taneb/Lowgate_and_Dilston
15:25:55 <Taneb> I may play dwarf fortress for a bit
15:39:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:45:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
15:50:11 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:51:30 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
15:52:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:55:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: It looks like an anemometer, but it is not. Anemometers don't fire bullets. Not even the expensive ones! Or I don't think they do ... if they do, meteorologists are more hardcore than I thought. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:08:58 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
16:16:11 -!- atran has joined.
16:16:44 -!- atran has quit (Client Quit).
16:32:02 <ais523> how do I create a modifiable associative array in Javascript? is it {}, new Array. new {}, or something else?
16:34:45 <Lumpio-> And it's an object in JS parlance
16:35:02 <Lumpio-> new Array shouldn't be used at all in most cases
16:35:06 <ais523> OK, just wondering if I'd create a constant if I did that
16:35:22 <ais523> I really don't remember much JavaScript…
16:35:22 <Lumpio-> new {｝ isn't even valid syntax
16:35:33 <Lumpio-> JS doesn't have constants really
16:35:51 <Lumpio-> Or well, strings and numbers are immutable
16:36:00 <Lumpio-> But there are no immutable tuples or sequences
16:37:15 -!- ais523 has quit.
16:40:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:46:25 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Quit: brb).
16:48:55 -!- MoALTz has joined.
16:57:12 <shachaf> Single DES doesn't sound like a good thing to use.
16:57:53 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
16:58:52 -!- asiekierka_ has changed nick to asiekierka.
17:00:12 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:04:38 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:12:33 <Taneb> I'm figuring out how to use reddit
17:22:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:33:21 <Taneb> I'm streaming df again
17:44:12 <ais523> and it is not a good language to teach people as their first programming language
17:44:12 <AnotherTest> I don't really like it, since I have only a limited amount of RAM on this old machine
17:44:22 <ais523> indeed, it can be quite RAM-hungry
17:44:38 <fizzie> Fortunately all new machines come with infinite amounts of.
17:45:33 <AnotherTest> I have a newer machine too, although I always like software to be usable on both
17:46:35 <Taneb> The first (and so far, only) language I got decent at is Haskell
17:47:03 <Taneb> But that's because I think weird?
17:47:04 <AnotherTest> I was thinking about looking into that further some time ago
17:47:31 <AnotherTest> But I eventually just stayed with good old C++
17:48:06 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn C
17:48:44 <Taneb> C++ doesn't quite appeal to me
17:49:41 <AnotherTest> When I write C code, I'm usually annoyed by the unchecked type system
17:49:41 <ais523> C++ is really incredibly far too complicated for its own good
17:50:00 <ais523> and just like XML and violence, the cure for dealing with C++ features tends to be more C++ features
17:51:20 <AnotherTest> ais523: but you can't ignore that some of those features are really appealing
17:51:34 <ais523> AnotherTest: which are you a fan of?
17:51:43 <Taneb> Maybe because there's no equivalent for XSLT in S-expressions?
17:51:53 <Taneb> Unless Lisp is one?
17:51:55 -!- derdon has joined.
17:52:03 <ais523> Taneb: Lisp has macros, which are saner than templates
17:52:23 <ais523> AnotherTest: do you know what SFINAE means?
17:52:31 <Taneb> Most web browsers don't run Lisp
17:52:37 <ais523> AnotherTest: the word has a different meaning in Lisp to cp
17:52:46 <ais523> doesn't mean anything to cp :P
17:53:35 <ais523> AnotherTest: that C++ templates are so complicated that it's even /meaningful/ is a sign that something is wrong
17:53:53 <ais523> they'd probably have been better of with explicit arguments in the <>, that'd avoid three quarters of the issues with them
17:54:00 <ais523> although that'd still leave quite a lot wrong
17:54:01 * impomatic wants to learn a tiny language next so I can write my own compiler / interpreter. I though maybe Algol 60 or Oberon.
17:54:12 <ais523> impomatic: ooh, go algol 60
17:54:23 <ais523> I study mathematical idealizations of that, it's a really neat language
17:54:29 <ais523> and there's not really been anything similar since
17:55:04 <impomatic> I have a few books on Algol... Maybe after I finished the next version of Itsy Forth.
17:55:21 <Taneb> Unfortunately, my C textbook was written pre-ANSI
17:55:50 <impomatic> Teneb: mine too. But you should be able to pick one up for a few $
17:56:13 <AnotherTest> ais523: templates may have problems, but I think every language feature in every language has problems
17:56:37 <AnotherTest> what language would you propose as an alternative?
17:57:13 <ais523> well, it really depends on what you're using it for
17:57:41 <ais523> C's typechecking is only marginally worse than C++'s
17:57:43 <AnotherTest> and also, it doesn't allow for user defined types
17:57:57 <ais523> err, yes it does? typedef exists, as do struct, union, and enum
17:57:58 <AnotherTest> C++'s type checking isn't that bad at all I think
17:58:08 <ais523> C and C++ have /almost the same typechecking algorithm/
17:58:10 <AnotherTest> yes, but those do not allow member functions
17:58:15 <ais523> only difference is that C++ treats const differently
17:58:19 <ais523> AnotherTest: are your member functions virtual?
17:58:35 <ais523> if not, you can replace them with non-member functions with no issues
17:58:57 <AnotherTest> Yes, but it takes away a notational convenience
17:59:10 <Taneb> I can get a second-hand copy of K&R C for 18.70
17:59:10 <ais523> who cares, it takes away a lot /more/ inconveniences
17:59:40 <ais523> in fact, if you really need virtual functions, it's typically more straightforward to implement a vtable by hand than it is to use C++, which is a pretty crazy state of affairs
18:00:04 <AnotherTest> I doubt I have even a hundredths of your experience but I did find C++ quite nice so far
18:00:05 <ais523> Taneb: floating point rounding error, I guess
18:00:21 <Taneb> But that's how much a new copy costs from amazon
18:00:26 <ais523> impomatic: I don't know that much about it
18:01:21 <Taneb> It seems most of this channel is in either #0x10c-dev or #haskell or both
18:01:39 <ais523> and haven't heard of #0x10c-dev
18:02:08 <AnotherTest> although I'm not a frequent freenode visitor
18:02:10 <ais523> hmm… 0x10c is 256+12 is 268
18:02:21 <ais523> I don't see an obvious meaning to the number
18:02:47 <AnotherTest> The year 268 would have been a leap year :p
18:06:15 <Taneb> It's Notch's (the maker of Minecraft) next game
18:06:49 <ais523> presumably he's started using bizarre names ever since Bethesda threatened to sue him
18:06:52 <Deewiant> Read the "backstory and setting"
18:08:18 <Taneb> Heh, I think I'm taking a trope too literally
18:08:24 <Taneb> I'm wearing a flag on my head
18:08:34 <ais523> apparently Notch offered to settle the lawsuit with a match of Quake III
18:08:36 <Taneb> Also, bbq time, see you guys later!
18:08:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:09:02 <impomatic> Taneb: 9.46 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Programming-Language-ansi-Version/dp/8120305965/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336241084&sr=8-4
18:10:09 <ais523> impomatic: is that K&R2?
18:10:26 <ais523> I wonder if that's still in print
18:10:31 <AnotherTest> ais523: Answering a question not asked to me; yes
18:12:27 <AnotherTest> ais523: You said you teach Java? I'm interested, what else do you teach?
18:12:43 <ais523> used to teach C, but I got out of that
18:12:54 <ais523> that module was a mess, and I couldn't do anything about it
18:12:55 <AnotherTest> Heard of that, it's a functional language based on ML right?
18:13:00 <ais523> it was trying to fit far too much into the syllabus
18:13:19 <ais523> AnotherTest: ML is a functional+imperative language; Caml is a dialect, OCaml adds objects to it but people rarely use them
18:13:40 <ais523> just that OCaml is probably the best-supported ML dialect around at the moment, so people use OCaml when they just want a generic ML
18:13:47 <ais523> (much to the annoyance of SML fans)
18:13:53 <AnotherTest> I read it in 'an introduction to lambda calculus'(one of the many) I guess
18:16:34 <AnotherTest> Do the students learn Java as a first language?
18:16:35 <Deewiant> ais523: By functional+imperative do you just mean impure functional
18:16:56 <ais523> Deewiant: I mean that the language contains first-class imperative constructs
18:17:02 <ais523> ifs, whiles, assignable variables, that sort of thing
18:17:12 <AnotherTest> I live very near the university of Leuven and here all students start with Java
18:17:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: they do, although it's not really a good choice for a first language
18:17:49 <AnotherTest> What language would you say is good to start out with?
18:18:02 <AnotherTest> also, why would it be not a good language to start out with?
18:18:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:18:52 <AnotherTest> Although that's not really general-purpose, and I think it might be better to start out with a general-purpose language(?)
18:19:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:20:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:21:04 <AnotherTest> not to insult you, but he once said that "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
18:22:01 <impomatic> zzo38: is this your site? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net :-)
18:22:09 <zzo38> Yes I agree Dijkstra was wrong. Possibly with some students it will be difficult not everyone though
18:23:01 <AnotherTest> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html
18:23:52 <impomatic> zzo38: Google sent me to FORTAVM :-)
18:24:30 <zzo38> impomatic: Google sents you to everywhere
18:25:48 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:26:49 <impomatic> zzo38: not quite everywhere. I see this a couple of times a day "In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page" :-(
18:28:26 <zzo38> It should also not send you to my webpage because I have blocked that from any search engine
18:28:31 <AnotherTest> It's my first esoteric programming language. Is it bad/alright/whatever?
18:29:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:35:21 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I don't know.
18:36:51 <AnotherTest> because I like it on one side, but I dislike the scalar type
18:37:53 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about Perl programming, but I do know AWK
18:44:04 <ais523> AnotherTest: I like it quite a bit
18:44:24 <ais523> it's not appropriate for everything, but it's the language I normally use for writing a one-off program, or for writing glue code (whether one-off or not)
18:49:56 <zzo38> Someone said the Canadian government would be stop making pennies. Is it correct? And, does United States government doing the same thing? If it is correct, can the stores accept United States coins (many already do) so that you can pay for one cents as well?
18:52:20 -!- monqy has joined.
18:53:47 <coppro> zzo38: that is correct; the last penny was minted yesterday.
18:54:01 <coppro> The US has no plans at the point that I'm aware of.
18:54:12 <coppro> I suppose that stores will accept US pennies, likely
18:55:14 <zzo38> Also, how does this affect taxes?
18:56:26 <coppro> Taxes aren't paid in cash
18:57:01 <Gregor> Uhhh, surely taxes CAN be paid in cash.
18:58:58 <zzo38> Do you like this chess variant? Except for the White player's first turn, each player may, twice per game, move a piece with duplication meaning a copy is left at its original location. You may not duplicate queens and kings (although pawns can be duplicated). Also, pawns can use such a move while capturing or non-capturing; other pieces can use duplication only for non-capturing.
18:59:45 <coppro> Gregor: I've never heard of anyone paying taxes in cash rather by cheque or other means
19:00:05 -!- impomatic has left.
19:00:28 <Gregor> coppro: I don't mean that it's ever done, but all sorts of theories of economics break down if cash can't even be used to pay the institution that defines its value ...
19:01:50 <coppro> Gregor: No they really don't
19:02:37 <ais523> Gregor: you can definitely clear bills in the UK using cash, there are designated places you can go to with some cash and some bills you want to pay, and they will take the cash from you and electronically send the same amount of money to the person the bill is from
19:02:51 <ais523> only works with compatible bills, but there are quite a lot of those
19:03:33 <ais523> mostly it's done in supermarkets, to make sure they're sufficiently commonplace
19:03:57 <coppro> Gregor: money is artificial; physical cash too
19:05:34 <Gregor> coppro: No shit. Not relevant.
19:06:17 <coppro> cash can be used to pay, just not directly
19:06:35 <Gregor> The government should not be forced to rely on other institutions to accept payment.
19:07:09 <Gregor> Moreover, the government should not force YOU to rely on other institutions to give payment.
19:08:48 <Gregor> Well, your argument is both powerful and convincing X_X
19:10:22 <coppro> Gregor: It is stupid to make a system that relies exclusively on the transfer of physical objects with deemed value, when there is nothing in particular that is special about those objects versus any other forms of payment
19:11:13 <coppro> Physical cash is not the underpinning of the economy
19:11:20 <Gregor> coppro: There is nothing special in general fare, but there is something special for the government: THEY MINT IT.
19:12:49 <coppro> physical cash is a convenience
19:13:24 <Gregor> Physical cash is a convenience which also happens to be the only form of money directly attributed value by the government trying to accept funds X_X
19:14:45 <Gregor> This conversation. It is so pointless. I don't even give a fuck anymore.
19:14:52 <coppro> laws about bills of exchange exist
19:14:54 <Kray> physical cash is only a token of value
19:15:10 <coppro> a cheque is a negotiable instrument the same as cash
19:15:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:16:39 <coppro> it has its value defined by reference to cash, but there is no reason that cash needs to exist. If the government made a law saying "the new currency is the entirely digital zordnik. We are going to regulate the supply of zordniks like we did paper money." things would work fine.
19:18:28 <zzo38> I have a idea for "digital cheques": You put the cheque number, sequence number, date, amount, and type of currency, and then digitally sign it with your private key. It may be further encrypted with the recipient's public key and/or the bank's key (to ensure not NSF cheque). And then you print it out and give it to the recipient the same as an ordinary cheque.
19:18:29 <Gregor> BUT THEY DIDN'T FUCKING DO THAT
19:18:58 <Gregor> A check is an instrument the same as cash negotiated WITH BANKS. The banks are regulated but they are not the government.
19:19:04 <Gregor> Argh why am I still talking
19:19:14 <Gregor> I need elliott's "just huff out" ability.
19:19:17 <zzo38> (The sequence number is there to ensure that it is not copied)
19:23:46 <coppro> Gregor: The banks are institutions granted charter by the government. Like, say, the mint.
19:27:46 <zzo38> I had some question in here before relating to mathematics; I would wonder, does somme people in here, know any of these answers?
19:28:49 <coppro> can you reask them or point to them in the logs
19:29:36 <zzo38> One question is, I know that a category equipped with a faithful functor to category of sets is called concrete category. But what is a category which is equipped with a fully faithful functor to the free category of a subset of its quiver?
19:31:40 <zzo38> I have other question too, in case you want them repeated at this time, too.
19:35:10 <zzo38> Is there a dioid which is also a dioid if addition is swapped with multiplication and zero is swapped with one; and what (if anything) does this have to do with topology?
19:38:05 <ais523> bleh, this closure isn't closing properly
19:38:38 * ais523 tries putting it in an anonymous scope
19:38:51 <zzo38> ais523: What closure do you mean?
19:39:05 <ais523> it's an anonymous function in JavaScript
19:39:56 <zzo38> coppro: Do you even know answer of these question relating to mathematics?
19:41:11 -!- MoALTz has joined.
19:53:50 <Gregor> ais523: Pastebin some code.
19:54:41 <ais523> Gregor: I'm going to get around it by using eval, I think, which is really hacky
19:55:06 <Gregor> Uhh, yeah, don't do that X-D
19:55:16 <Gregor> Post some code or describe your problem or something X-D
19:55:58 <ais523> basically, I do { var fc = f; var gc = g; obj.onchange = function() { myfunc(fc, gc); } }
19:56:36 <ais523> and when myfunc's called, it's always with the values of f and g on the last iteration of the loop
19:56:58 <Gregor> (function(fc, gc) { return function() { ... }; })(f, g)
19:57:16 -!- jfischoff has joined.
19:57:20 <zzo38> Why is it bizarre?
19:57:23 <Gregor> That ... is not bizarre. At all.
19:57:28 <Gregor> It's just an imperative language with closures.
19:57:28 <ais523> Gregor: wouldn't that just call the function immediately?
19:57:30 <Lumpio-> That's how closure works in any language I've used
19:57:41 <HackEgo> jfischoff: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
19:57:43 <Lumpio-> But what that achieves is that it rebinds the variables
19:57:44 <Gregor> ais523: That calls the OUTER function immediately, the outer function returns an inner function which closes as you expect.
19:57:50 <ais523> oh, I see, you need a scope that happens to belong to a function to close, rather than just any function
19:57:50 <zzo38> It make sense to me.
19:57:51 <Lumpio-> Creates a new environment with their current values
19:57:54 <ais523> what a weird restriction
19:58:05 <ais523> in Perl, any lexical scope will do
19:58:05 <Gregor> ais523: JavaScript only HAS function-level scopes.
19:58:08 <zzo38> How is it weird? It is sensible to me.
19:58:16 <ais523> Gregor: ah, OK, that's what I was missing
19:58:19 <Lumpio-> Actually newer versions of JS have block scope
19:58:24 <Lumpio-> If you use "let" instead of "var"
19:58:26 <zzo38> Gregor: In Mozilla, you can use let to add other scopes too
19:58:43 <Gregor> zzo38: Fine fine, in ECMAScript you only have function-level scopes.
19:59:14 <zzo38> Mozilla also supports yield, and also allows changing prototypes, which I have occasionally found to be useful.
19:59:32 <zzo38> So, if you are writing the program to run in Mozilla, then you can use these features.
20:00:59 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:01:42 <Gregor> jfischoff: You're lucky, we're actually talking about a language, albeit a nonesoteric one. Usually we talk about stupid nonsense and play with the bots.
20:02:11 <zzo38> As well as a large number of other stuff.
20:02:20 <Gregor> Oh, but you're not actually new, I just hadn't seen you X-D
20:02:26 <zzo38> We are rarely on the topic but feel free to ask anyways.
20:02:47 <zzo38> This is an advice that you should tell to everyone entering this channel.
20:03:24 <Gregor> We should add it to `welcome ^^
20:03:34 <Gregor> Welcome to a channel where we talk about random shit, enjoy!
20:04:11 <jfischoff> Gregor: What is surprising about javascript is the variance of the user's skill level
20:04:38 <jfischoff> so people think it is a bad language
20:04:41 <Gregor> From "obviously eval is the only way to solve this what are arrays?" to "I use JavaScript because I have years of experience with Scheme"
20:05:49 <jfischoff> http://osteele.com/sources/javascript/functional/
20:06:10 <ais523> I know it's an OK language, but I also know I'm not very good at it
20:06:15 <Lumpio-> ...I don't think the variance is surprising at all
20:06:23 <ais523> I'd almost understood it right, just missed the nonexistence of inner scopes
20:06:23 <Lumpio-> At least it has /some/ good users
20:06:51 <zzo38> Yes, JavaScript is better than PHP
20:09:57 <zzo38> But, FurryScript and Icoruma are implemented in PHP. Unfortunately, Icoruma is too slow with PHP. But at least I do better that Internet Quiz Engine is implemented in C (you might disagree and say there are security issues; but look at the program and then make a better opinion/analysis).
20:12:20 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
20:13:27 <zzo38> (Actually, the main menu of Internet Quiz Engine (selectors starting "quiz.menu") is implemented in PHP, but when a quiz file is running (selectors starting "quiz.run"), that part is written in C.)
20:13:54 <coppro> although the first seems irrelevant
20:14:01 <coppro> and the second far too vague
20:15:08 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:15:24 -!- ion has joined.
20:15:32 <zzo38> coppro: You are refering to my questions about mathematics? What makes the first one irrelevant? And what is wrong with the second one?
20:16:30 <coppro> the first one is nomenclature for a property that does not seem particularly relevant, and "what does X have to do with Y" is, as a rule, always too vague
20:19:25 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:25:19 <zzo38> coppro: Do you have any opinion about my Haskell "prelude-generalize"?
20:26:54 <coppro> I don't know what that is.
20:28:44 <zzo38> It affects the type of many standard functions, as well as implement a few new classes, and import common things from many other modules. Such as: head :: Foldable t => t x -> x; tail :: MonadLogic m => m x -> m x; (!!) :: (Copeanoid i, Foldable t) => t x -> i -> x; filter :: MonadPlus m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x; choice :: (Foldable t, Alternative f) => t (f x) -> f x; concat :: (MonadPlus m, Foldable f) => m (f x) -> m x;
20:30:33 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
20:31:28 <zzo38> In addition, you will write "head" instead of "fromJust", and "null" instead of "isNothing", and "convList" instead of "listToMaybe" or "maybeToList".
20:32:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:40:37 <zzo38> shachaf: Hello. Do you like 83 cent coins?
20:40:53 -!- MoALTz has joined.
20:41:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I've never seen one.
20:41:47 <zzo38> I read an article somewhere that wants the Canadian government to make 83 cent coins.
20:42:01 <shachaf> zzo38: What are you named after?
20:42:49 <zzo38> shachaf: Actually, some random letters and number that a long time ago I was making a design on a pollowcase and ask them I wanted to put numbers, but the only numbers they had is 3 and 8.
20:43:12 <zzo38> (Some people do not believe this; but actually this is true.)
20:43:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see monqy's self-portrait of me?
20:43:39 <zzo38> shachaf: No. I have not seen.
20:46:12 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png
20:47:29 <shachaf> monqy: did you ever draw any more self portraits
20:47:51 <monqy> I drew one of elliott and one of myself
20:48:00 <monqy> one of nihilistdandy
20:48:03 <zzo38> This looks some kind of strange
20:48:53 <monqy> I'm a bit busy so it'll have to wait but
20:48:59 <monqy> "maybe eventually I'll do it"
20:49:25 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: IMPRESSIVE
20:49:40 <shachaf> monqy: can i see the one ofe nihilistdandy
20:50:03 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/dondy.png
20:50:06 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
20:51:31 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
20:51:59 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: ask for monqy"s self self portraite
20:52:05 <monqy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/monqy.png
20:52:26 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: never minde, monqy read your minde
20:53:38 <shachaf> monqy: could you draw a self self portrait of me? or is that too many selves
20:54:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:54:21 <monqy> that was just a self portrait of shachaf
20:54:36 <monqy> I've only ever drawn a self self portrait of myself
20:54:58 <shachaf> in other words a self self self portrait
20:55:31 <monqy> if it's of myself, it's every self potrait
20:55:39 <monqy> it's also a self self self self self portrait
20:55:46 <monqy> and self self self self self self portrait
20:56:06 <monqy> eventually you'll get tired of putting self in front so you may wish to stop while you're ahead
20:58:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
20:58:09 <ion> > cycle "self " ++ "portrait"
20:58:11 <lambdabot> "self self self self self self self self self self self self self self self...
20:58:28 <shachaf> @let self = fun "self" :: Expr -> Expr
20:58:34 <lambdabot> self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (self (sel...
21:10:15 <zzo38> data Declaration = Declaration Name [Token] Token deriving (Eq, Show); data Token = T_Name Name | T_Para Int | T_Num Int | T_String PoolString | T_List [Token] | T_Call Name [Token] | T_Enum TreeName | T_Lambda [Int] [Token] deriving (Eq, Show); Now I have [Declaration] what is best way to make the index of the blocks of different kind to be accessed easily? (The first Name of Declaration indicates the kind, not the name, of the block.)
21:11:26 <zzo38> (Note: Name, PoolString, and TreeName are all type synonyms for Word32)
21:27:17 -!- jfischoff has quit (Quit: jfischoff).
21:28:37 -!- jfischoff has joined.
21:35:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]).
21:53:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:56:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:59:10 <ion> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/05/weak-evidence-seizure
22:06:21 <ion> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57428067-83/fbi-we-need-wiretap-ready-web-sites-now/
22:22:10 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:23:05 -!- MoALTz has joined.
22:28:00 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:45 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:39:28 <zzo38> Full moon tonight.
22:41:50 -!- nortti has joined.
22:43:59 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:44:03 <nortti> yay. Freenode SASL script for irssi requires Crypt::OpenSSL::Bignum which of couse refuses to build correctly on my system
22:46:14 <nortti> And I have confirmed that freenode intentionaly blocked my ISP fron using non-SASL connection
22:46:19 <zzo38> quintopia: In my timezone it is today.
22:46:51 <quintopia> zzo38: sometime between dusk here and dawn here :)
22:47:41 <zzo38> In GMT it is (Sun) 5/ 6/2012 3:35 Sun (Tau) Opp (Sco) Moon
22:48:18 <zzo38> In my timezone it is at 20:35 today
22:48:59 <zzo38> Your app is wrong? What app is that? Maybe you misconfigured it?
22:49:38 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Sun May 06 01:52:05 UTC+3.00 2012
22:50:43 <zzo38> Then get a better program, such as the UNIX "phase of moon" program, or Astrolog.
22:51:19 <nortti> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/7/8/9/127789.jpg?v=1
22:51:57 <Phantom__Hoover> nortti, please stop pasting today's Cracked articles into the channel.
22:52:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Otherwise you will be shipped off to Guantanamo under UK anti-free speech legislation.
22:53:06 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: But I happen to live in finland
22:53:24 <Phantom__Hoover> We'll invade you because we're so jealous of your free utopia.
23:00:34 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: by the way os there anything new going on in Airstrip One?
23:01:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Well we considered passing a motion to outlaw happiness for young, liberal 20somethings.
23:06:25 <nortti> "It was during this age that most of the Finnish culture formed, like the Sauna, the Finnish cottage (mokki), hunting (metsastys) and drinking themselves to death due to depression(perjantai-ilta)."
23:10:38 <nortti> "We're going to take a trip, way, way back to the prehistoric times of April 18, 2011: The day Apple claimed ownership of the rectangle."
23:11:15 <monqy> I'd ask what, but really I don't want to know
23:11:32 <monqy> elliott: forgive me etc etc etc
23:12:48 <nortti> monqy: which one you don't want to know about
23:16:12 <nortti> monqy: first one: perjantai-ilta means friday evening
23:17:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Hey wow Minecraft finally eliminated seperate single-player.
23:26:07 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
23:26:28 <shachaf> elliott: forgive monqy etc etc etc
23:28:50 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:29:30 <nortti> http://cnet.com/news/57428067
23:31:44 <cheater__> zzo38: full moon was yesterday already
23:32:29 -!- jfischoff has quit (Quit: jfischoff).
23:37:35 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:53:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:57:10 <kmc> shachaf: indeed single DES is not a good thing to use
23:57:57 <kmc> it looks like these people will sell you a device which brute forces DES in a day for $10,000: http://www.sciengines.com/
23:59:29 <kmc> there are so many other ways to screw up crypto; if brute force is a realistic attack for your system that's really pathetic