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08:33:13 <Gregor> Something is desperately wrong X_X
08:33:27 <Gregor> But I can't easily figure it out or fix it 'til I'm back in the States.
08:38:13 <Taneb> Gregor, I think I've got a cold
08:38:29 <Gregor> Get off my Internet, I'll get sick.
08:38:37 <Gregor> The Great Firewall is not enough to block your germs.
08:40:17 <Gregor> The term "germ" subsumes viruses X_X
08:40:50 <Taneb> I always assume germ was an alternative to bacteria
08:41:00 <Gregor> Then you "assume" wrong.
08:41:20 <Gregor> The term "germ" applies to any small, disease-causing entity, be it a virus, bacteria, fungus, parasite or otherwise.
08:41:21 <Taneb> Well, you learn stuff all the time
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08:47:22 <kmc> what about heavy metal atoms
08:48:25 <Gregor> kmc: Hmm ... actually, I'd say it's probably debatable whether it does or does not. But typically it's only used for things at least as "alive" as viruses.
09:09:50 <nortti> http://www.gameplox.com/2012/06/16/quoting-the-internet-playing-games-after-age-20-is-not-normal/
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09:11:53 <ion> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and watching movies, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is not normal for a man in his 20s.
09:13:03 <nortti> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and reading books, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is not normal for a man in his 20s.
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09:15:43 <Taneb> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and plotting to kill everyone, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is perfectly normal for a man in his 20s.
09:15:50 <oklopol> is she saying more generally that it's not normal to enjoy being alone?
09:17:56 <Taneb> I definitely communicate online more than face-to-face, but then again, I'm not really that normal
09:28:58 <quintopia> http://www.imgur.com/yQN9j remember him?
09:33:14 <oklopol> i wonder if when books got popular, people criticized them for replacing looking at real actors with real friends with sitting alone in a room and looking at symbols.
09:33:19 <kmc> what a crock of shit
09:33:35 <kmc> video games are like a $65 billion a year global industry
09:33:37 <oklopol> perhaps at some point people realize video games are way closer to chilling with your buddies than reading.
09:33:43 <kmc> i suppose all that money comes from teenagers and serial killers?
09:33:50 <Taneb> oklopol, they were criticised for destroying memory
09:33:52 <ion> and teenager serial killers
09:34:04 <ion> not to mention serial teenager killers
09:34:20 <Taneb> Yeah, as opposed to oral tradition
09:34:33 <shachaf> kmc: $65 billion a year? Isn't Farmville about half of that?
09:34:34 <oklopol> i thought you meant video games
09:35:44 <kmc> zynga reported $311.2 million revenue in Q4 2011
09:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i wonder if when books got popular, people criticized them for replacing looking at real actors with real friends with sitting alone in a room and looking at symbols.
09:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I know the Greeks said that writing would make everyone stop being able to remember things.
09:38:48 <oklopol> yeah, but i'm referring to the social aspect, memory doesn't have much to do with serial killers.
09:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Dunno, I'm not really sure when books got popular as a form of entertainment.
09:40:27 <Gregor> I wonder if when marbles became popular, people criticized how they brewed competition and unfriendliness, unlike pushing a hoop with a stick down a dirt road.
09:41:04 <oklopol> well that's a bit off-topic
09:41:47 <Gregor> I'm just making stupid jokes *shrugs*
09:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And what they were saying was more like "no, Anders, sitting alone in your room playing games does not prove you're not crazy".
09:42:38 <oklopol> Gregor: pushing a hoop with a stick down a dirt road is trivial, and lets your brain be lazy.
09:42:47 <Gregor> quintopia: 5:45PM. I'mma go get food soon.
09:43:03 <Gregor> oklopol: Is it? I actually have no idea how much skill is involved. Would depend on the exact shape of the hoop, I suppose.
09:43:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes, it is in the opposite timezone of EST.
09:43:17 <oklopol> Gregor: we have discussed this before
09:43:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Yes. Yes we have. But I don't remember things 8-D
09:43:46 <quintopia> i was logreading from last february
09:43:48 <oklopol> it is something a 20 plus male can do instantly.
09:44:12 <oklopol> well how dirty a road are we talking
09:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember in school we got shown all these antique toys so we could see how miserable past children are and those things are impossible to keep upright.
09:44:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover is the hoop-and-stick champion of Scotland.
09:44:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, modern children are just stupid is all.
09:44:50 <oklopol> i seem to recall quite the opposit
09:45:00 <quintopia> i was reading about all the ridiculous ideas we had about a bfjoust scoring system before i came up with the one in the topic
09:45:53 <oklopol> you tried stilts and they were trivial with any kind of grip though, right?
09:46:39 -!- nooga has joined.
09:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I've tried stilts, with or without a grip.
09:47:03 <quintopia> obtw did you bring codu back up Gregor
09:48:03 <oklopol> yeah jacks is kind of boring
09:48:39 <oklopol> you mean the game with the ball and the weird little murder tools?
09:49:52 <quintopia> makes me think of that firefly episode
09:50:04 <oklopol> a friend of mine wants to start playing go
09:51:01 <oklopol> chess is a horrible game, and i'm not sure i ever want to play it again
09:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I just kept wondering how I could upgrade my pawns to have a rocket launcher.
09:51:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you need to talk to kallisti for that
09:52:48 <oklopol> well that was my point, i wonder if it's very likely that go is more fun.
09:53:38 <oklopol> that looks even more complicated than chess
09:55:25 <oklopol> yes, will consider chess halo
09:55:51 <oklopol> quintopia: doesn't go have like one rule
09:56:01 <oklopol> put down shit and remove surrounded stuffs.
09:56:13 <quintopia> oklopol: yes but also a lot of traditions
09:56:29 <oklopol> that's not part of the rules
09:56:40 <quintopia> its stuff you have to know to play
09:56:49 <quintopia> and the traditions are arguably part of the rules
09:57:04 <oklopol> yeah but it's not part of the rules, i have nothing against learning theorems, it's complicated axioms i despise.
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09:57:13 <quintopia> anyway, go is simple to describe, impossible to play well
09:59:04 <shachaf> > let f :: a -> Ord a => a -> Ordering; f = compare in f 1 2
09:59:05 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Classes.Ord a) from the context ()
09:59:09 <shachaf> > let f :: a -> Ord a => a -> Ordering; f x y = compare x y in f 1 2
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10:29:07 <Taneb> So, you can but please never, ever do so.
10:30:18 <Taneb> It's possible to do that, but don't
10:30:22 <Taneb> Because it is wrong
10:30:28 <Taneb> And will be fixed eventually
10:31:46 <shachaf> Which part are you talking about?
10:31:53 <shachaf> Both lines I gave should behave like the second one.
10:32:09 <Taneb> I was thinking about the Ord a in the middle
10:52:35 <shachaf> Is it just me or is #haskell way worse than it used to be?
10:54:39 <Taneb> Civilisation is a Shepard tone
10:55:01 <Taneb> Constantly seeming to decline, while remaining about the same
10:56:25 <Taneb> Hell, it's like the tri-tone paradox
10:56:56 <Taneb> In that in different points of view, it appears to be either ascending or descending
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10:58:30 <Gregor> <quintopia> obtw did you bring codu back up Gregor // If I'm online, Codu is up.
10:58:40 <Sgeo> Taneb, monqy tswett MAJOR UPDATE
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11:26:59 <Gregor> I don't understand how rm can take up 100% CPU for substantial amounts of time.
11:30:01 <itidus21> the majority of data written to harddisks is largely unimportant
11:40:50 <itidus21> regarding: I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and X, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is Y for a man in his 20s.
11:42:03 <itidus21> eventually such issues will dominate the world.. just as oil rose to signifigance
11:42:44 <itidus21> i mean, it's still a relatively niche geek topic today, but tomorrow, we will realize it's a systemic crisis
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11:45:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/BjYV
11:45:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 63.4
11:46:13 <quintopia> only slight improvement yes, but adds one more + to its row
11:46:46 <itidus21> Seinfeld 2012: the web surfers
11:48:35 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ (link down, see http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D for now) | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
11:49:06 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
11:49:22 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3487379977305 // Latest, and possibly final, travel log entry!
11:52:57 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:56:54 <itidus21> i like the kazoo, the harmonica, the didgeridoo, the bagpipes, the ocarina (because of zelda), the piccolo (because of dragon ball), the organ, and the theremin
11:57:03 <itidus21> no idea what a kazoo is though
11:58:06 <Sgeo> Does saying I sold more than 1,674 copies of a script in Second Life look good on a resume?
11:58:09 <itidus21> and that plastic wind instrument made famous by the world cup
11:59:21 <Gregor> So you're pretty well obsessed with shitty instruments then.
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12:09:28 <Sgeo> Would PSOX look terrible on a resume?
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12:15:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*21[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:15:54 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.2
12:16:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:16:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.0
12:16:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:16:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.6
12:16:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:16:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:17:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-][+][-]++)*28
12:17:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.6
12:17:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:17:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.1
12:17:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:17:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:19:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*10>)%17}[-]](+)*40>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:19:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:20:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:20:28 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.2
12:20:34 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:20:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.0
12:20:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:20:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.1
12:21:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%4}[-]](+)*20>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:21:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.1
12:21:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%7}[-]](+)*5>)%14(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:21:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:25:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*20>)%17}[-]](+)*5>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:25:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*5>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:34 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.6
12:25:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*15>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.9
12:26:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*15>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.7
12:26:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:26:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:31:42 <Gregor> Your nanopoke is looking less nano by the instant.
12:33:20 <quintopia> well i cant use "micropoke" because you did that first
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12:34:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{(<[{}--[-]](+)*40>)%17}--[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:34:34 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.8
12:34:42 <quintopia> it's amazing how many ties it forces
12:35:17 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Sun Jun 17 22:33:50
12:35:30 <Taneb> itidus21, buy a clock?
12:35:34 <quintopia> well none of these variations is getting it a score high enough to stay on the hill
12:37:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_Gregor_micropoke (>)*9([ (<)*8(+)*85<(-)*85(>)*9 ([-]>)*21 ]>)*21
12:37:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_Gregor_micropoke: 18.7
12:40:42 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:40:45 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.4
12:41:16 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*7(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*7(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:41:19 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.7
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12:43:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:43:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.6
12:43:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:43:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.6
12:44:02 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 12.7
12:44:21 <Gregor> Better than your nanopoke ;)
12:44:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.0
12:44:58 <Gregor> !bfjoust lameomatic -*100000
12:45:01 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_lameomatic: 10.0
12:45:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:45:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:45:17 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide (-)*-1
12:45:20 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 15.8
12:45:32 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide (-.)*-1
12:45:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.3
12:45:40 <nortti> Vorpal: repeat infinitely
12:45:44 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_awful: 10.0
12:45:54 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21+++++[>](>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:45:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 4.3
12:46:15 <Vorpal> !bfjoust terrible (>)*-1
12:46:17 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_terrible: 0.0
12:46:29 <Vorpal> I beat you all, the lowest score
12:46:41 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_awful2: 0.0
12:47:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:47:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.5
12:48:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[[++++++++++++++++]])*-1
12:48:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:48:26 <Vorpal> quintopia, you mean nanopoke?
12:48:32 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[+++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:35 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 14.5
12:48:39 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:42 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 17.5
12:48:46 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[+++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:48 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 11.2
12:48:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>+[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:58 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 2.1
12:49:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:28 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*8(>[+++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:31 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 11.4
12:49:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++])*-1
12:50:01 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.7
12:50:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++])*-1
12:50:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.3
12:50:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++](+)*5)*-1
12:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 10.3
12:51:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++])*-1
12:52:01 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.3
12:55:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
13:08:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(-)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<((+)*5[<{}])%28(+)*20[>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 11.6
13:09:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(-)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<((+)*3[<{}])%28(+)*20[>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:09:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.8
13:09:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:09:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 0.0
13:10:54 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:10:57 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.9
13:11:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >--(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(++[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:11:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 11.3
13:11:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:11:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.2
13:14:08 <Taneb> !bfjoust im_not_very_good_at_this >(-)*3>(+)*5>(-)*7>(-)*11>(+)*13>(+)*13>(-)*17>(-)*23[>[-.]]
13:14:11 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this: 0.2
13:14:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:14:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.4
13:14:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*9[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:14:54 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.7
13:15:04 <Gregor> !bfjoust CHAAAAAAARGE (>)*100
13:15:07 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_CHAAAAAAARGE: 0.0
13:15:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:15:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*9[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:15:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.7
13:15:53 <Taneb> Could Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this be the worst serious BFJoust program ever?
13:17:30 <Lumpio-> !bfjoust i_dont_even --[-]
13:17:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lumpio-_i_dont_even: 12.7
13:17:40 <Gregor> Taneb: It's just your terminal loop that's broken
13:18:57 <nortti> Taneb: how can your program suck so hard?
13:19:33 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*20<
13:19:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:19:48 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*60<
13:19:51 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:19:59 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*10000<
13:20:02 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:20:31 <Taneb> !bfjoust im_not_very_good_at_this >(-)*3>(+)*5>(-)*7>(-)*11>(+)*13>(+)*17>(-)*19>(-)*23(>[-.])*100
13:20:33 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this: 16.0
13:20:55 <Taneb> Wow, that made the hill
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13:38:36 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28(-)*40>(-)*40>(-)*40(>-[(>)*4(>[(+)*30[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27])*28
13:38:39 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 33.5
13:39:45 <quintopia> Gregor: nanopoke is my answer to ffspg. it uses the same strategy...but it's a one-liner
13:40:33 <quintopia> (well, the poke/breadcrumb part anyway. it doesnt do that crazy careless clear stuff.)
13:40:53 <fizzie> !bfjoust headless_chicken (><)*50000
13:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_headless_chicken: 12.5
13:46:44 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 14.2
13:47:27 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>+>-)*5(-)*127
13:47:30 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 0.1
13:48:00 <nortti> oh come on. that is even worse than Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this
13:48:18 <mroman> mroman_I_have_no_idea_how_the_fuck_this_works ;)
13:49:35 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.]>)
13:49:38 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 0.0
13:49:53 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.])
13:49:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 0.0
13:50:26 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.]>)*-1
13:50:28 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 10.7
13:52:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-->(-)*3(>)*6(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(++[<{}])%28<(+)*30>(-)*40>(-)*40>(-)*40(>--[(>)*4(>[(+)*30[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*28
13:52:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 29.5
13:53:02 <nortti> pretty good compared to older ones
13:53:09 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 10.2
13:53:37 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:53:44 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:53:51 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele +.--.
13:53:54 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:54:02 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele +..--..
13:54:05 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:54:26 <fizzie> Trailing '.'s are indeed the best, given that running off the end of the program does the same thing as '.'.
13:55:02 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 11.6
13:56:27 <fizzie> !bfjoust the_simplest_thing (>)*9([-.]>)*21
13:56:29 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_the_simplest_thing: 22.7
13:56:37 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*20
13:56:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.1
13:57:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9([-]>)*20
13:57:07 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.5
13:57:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9>([-]>)*11
13:57:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 1.6
13:57:34 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9>([-]>)*12
13:57:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 2.4
13:57:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*12
13:57:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 3.6
13:57:42 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*11
13:57:45 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 3.0
13:57:46 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*20
13:57:49 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.1
13:57:57 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*19
13:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.1
13:58:07 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*21
13:58:10 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.4
13:58:13 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*22
13:58:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:17 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*23
13:58:20 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*24
13:58:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*-1
13:58:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:55 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>>+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:58:58 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.3
13:59:06 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:59:09 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
13:59:26 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>-([-]>)*-1
13:59:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 6.7
13:59:33 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:59:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
13:59:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-.]>)*-1
13:59:41 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.7
14:00:08 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*10([-.]>)*-1
14:00:11 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
14:00:16 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:18 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
14:00:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>-->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.5
14:00:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
14:00:47 <nortti> now I'll stop botspamming for a moment
14:02:13 <fizzie> It does work in a query, too.
14:02:51 <fizzie> (And of course the hill + code are available for local testing, for that matter, but that involves more fiddling.)
14:03:14 <tswett> Gregor: hey, do you know if there are any full body portraits of you floating around on top of the Internet?
14:03:44 <Gregor> That was the most terrifying question anyone has ever asked.
14:03:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Clothing optional, I presume.
14:03:51 <Gregor> So I'm just going to pretend I never heard it.
14:03:55 <nortti> hmm. why isn't my program in the hill?
14:04:10 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>)*9[[-]>]
14:04:12 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 10.5
14:04:42 <nortti> never mind. it is there!
14:05:28 <tswett> The closest I've found is http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/. But that's JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
14:05:38 <Sgeo> tswett, you saw the UPDATE, right?
14:05:43 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>)*4(+)*200[[-]>]
14:05:47 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 0.8
14:06:07 <mroman> I think I'm gonna stick with CoreWars :)
14:06:30 <tswett> Okay, the closest I've found is http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/ + http://codu.org/chromates.jpg (NSFPWAE). Still NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
14:06:33 <nortti> mroman: or read bfjouds
14:06:52 <nortti> (Maybe I should also read it :P)
14:07:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*70<(-)*70>(>-[(>)*4(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*9[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*25
14:07:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.4
14:07:16 <Gregor> tswett: What does "NSFPWAE" stand for?
14:07:29 <tswett> Not safe for people who are eating.
14:08:29 <tswett> I dunno. I'm not currently eating, and I find the photo perfectly lookable.
14:08:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(>)*4(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*25
14:08:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 18.7
14:09:03 <tswett> Anyway, I think I'll resort to drawing this guy instead: http://marriageministries.net/images/Gardner%20full%20length.jpg
14:09:23 <tswett> I will become Deviantart's most accomplished Tim Alan Gardner portraitist.
14:10:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:11:41 <Gregor> tswett: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1047472701148&l=71244343ce
14:12:48 <tswett> This cookie is DELICIOUS.
14:14:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:14:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 35.3
14:15:53 <quintopia> because it beats space_elevator >_>
14:16:41 <tswett> Actually, the cookie's not that great. But I am deriving the most profound pleasure from this photograph.
14:21:28 <tswett> Actually, no, I'm finding the Tim Gardner photo a tad more usable.
14:21:37 <tswett> If you know what I mean.
14:22:28 <Gregor> tswett: The alternative title for that photo is "Gardner in Purgatory"
14:23:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 37.9
14:23:38 <tswett> I guess purgatory must be, like, blank.
14:25:57 <quintopia> @ask fizzie could you run clustering and decoy analysis on the current hill plox?
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14:31:58 <Taneb> Did you ever do that bit of thinking?
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14:42:10 <david_werecat> I'm trying, though my laptop has been overheating, giving BSOD's and performing poorly for the past week.
14:43:32 <david_werecat> It also looks like I'll need to change the core of dreadnought if I want to gain any more gound.
14:45:37 <fizzie> quintopia: I ran the thingamajik. The page is updataded. (Though the clustering should really use other features than just the results, arguably.)
14:45:38 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:46:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]--)*25
14:46:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 34.1
14:46:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 37.9
14:50:26 <fizzie> quintopia: http://zem.fi/egostats/
14:59:10 <quintopia> fizzie: i think you could cluster on the number-of-wins-per-tape-length data
15:20:23 <elliott> I think I'll see if I can rope ais523 into arguing my side wrt quintopia's thread.
15:20:53 <elliott> "On the other hand, everyone could just agree this is a pretty lame thing to do in most cases and preferentially treat those who innovate new strategies." This won't happen, since everyone tweaks constants anyway, and ais523 even has a program that does it for him, generically.
15:21:58 <elliott> quintopia: Ugh, you used <br> for paragraph breaks.
15:47:09 <itidus21> I dunno who Tim Gardner is but he has classy threads.
16:11:10 <elliott> fizzie: I see you've had "Linux" "Torvalds" talk at "Wave".
16:12:14 <ion> QWOP cosplay http://youtu.be/Z1TM90jWXKM
16:20:14 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I didn't bother attending though. Some people who were there said he didn't say anything terribly interesting.
16:21:16 <itidus21> "QWOP cosplay"..... what? ah this marks the beginning of the age of houses made of cellophane
16:26:16 <ion> A Den of Kittens http://youtu.be/RM5hQ3Qtf-8
16:47:46 <elliott> fizzie: It seems like you missed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MShbP3OpASA#t=49m50s, mostly.
16:57:00 <fizzie> Oh, this is the afternoon talk, okay. There was a general-audience morning thing, too.
16:58:37 <fizzie> He seems to be as polite as ever.
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17:40:51 <itidus21> I have this idea of a graphics format. Basically what you would expect from me.
17:42:11 <Taneb> Overlapping translucent polygons?
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17:42:30 <itidus21> have i already said it before?
17:42:42 <itidus21> well polygons isn't the exact word
17:44:39 <itidus21> 1st datum = width. subsequent data are in pairs. the first datum in each pair is a colour. second datum is a 1d address in the image.
17:45:05 <itidus21> and at the address in that image, there is some arbitrary 1bit stamp drawn in the given colour
17:46:10 <itidus21> and the idea is to select some clever stamp/pattern i am unsure of the best term here.. with which to draw something
17:48:08 <itidus21> the ideal behind it, which in practice is guaranteed to fail, is the idea that there might be some pattern of bits which when overlapped substantially can create useful images
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17:51:46 <coppro> https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/31659
17:56:27 <Taneb> What's that huh meaning
17:57:41 <itidus21> this is basically what i am saying, since what i said may have been too rambly http://oi48.tinypic.com/doul1d.jpg
18:03:08 <itidus21> yeah this pic really says it all
18:06:04 <itidus21> i guess if i expanded it by allowing it to have a pallette of patterns of a fixed size, then i would be encroaching upony plagiarising many 8bit graphics systems!
18:06:58 <oklopol> for a second there i thought you were doing tilings
18:07:42 <oklopol> it's basically an open problem whether you can do something interesting from a single tile like that
18:07:45 <itidus21> well i guess i am, except, overlapping tiles with transparent sections
18:08:24 <oklopol> that is, for instance whether there's a tile which gives only aperiodic tilings when you fill the plane with copies of it with no overlap
18:09:35 <oklopol> my supervisor proved a few years ago that if a tile doesn't tile periodically, its convex hull is basically a rectangle, iirc
18:10:08 <itidus21> ok ok .. you seem to have time to spare ill tell you which words i didnt quite fathom
18:10:08 <monqy> thanks for trying.
18:10:29 <itidus21> i understand filling a plane at least!
18:10:37 <oklopol> if you mark the centers of your tiles, the pattern is not periodic
18:11:13 <oklopol> i assume you can guess what it means for a subset of Z^2 to be periodic
18:11:58 <oklopol> okay, X is periodic in direction v if X+v = X, where v is a vector and X+v means adding the vector v to each vector in X
18:12:07 <oklopol> Z^2 is the discrete 2d plane, yes
18:12:11 <oklopol> the set of pairs of integers
18:13:25 <oklopol> ...and by X a subset of Z^2 being periodic i mean it has two vectors of periodicity that point in different directions
18:13:30 <itidus21> ok so, skipping that for a second, can i assume that overlapping tiles are basically uninteresting?
18:13:43 <oklopol> well i don't know what you can ask about those
18:14:13 <itidus21> maybe it's best i think about non overlapping
18:15:25 <oklopol> if you have more than one tile, you can get turing machines and stuff
18:16:07 <itidus21> i guess that the overlap is actually Z^3 in disguise
18:16:34 <oklopol> perhaps. iirc there's a single 3d tile which gives only aperiodic tilings.
18:16:40 <oklopol> it's this weird cockroach thing
18:17:37 <itidus21> i suppose it depends how you do it..
18:17:52 <itidus21> but.. when overlapping the tiles.. its kind of 2.5d
18:19:16 <itidus21> i am thinking about video games
18:20:02 <itidus21> ok so Z^2 is discrete 2d plane..
18:20:18 <oklopol> i had a bad math day, tried to prove this thing for 3 hours and came up with a counterexample
18:21:15 <itidus21> i don't actually know what you're saying about aperiodic tiling though
18:21:51 <itidus21> i guess periodic tiling in Z^2 is the whole chessboard, game of life, tictactoe thing
18:21:54 <oklopol> a tile is said to be aperiodic if whenever you fill the plane with it, you must have put your tiles in a pattern without a period.
18:23:05 <oklopol> the blacks of the chessboard are a periodic subset of Z^2, yes (if you continue infinitely in all directions)
18:24:58 <itidus21> it's fun for me to be taken so seriously.
18:25:37 <itidus21> I will now explain what it is that i am trying to do. And it's mostly a thought exercize.
18:27:00 <itidus21> using overlapping tiles in Z^2, with transparent areas, with 1 tile pattern but in different colours, to create images
18:28:23 <oklopol> okay, how about a 1x1 tile?
18:28:35 <itidus21> ya..! that can create any image
18:29:26 <oklopol> and let the rule be that when you have m overlapping tiles, the color is m mod n
18:29:33 <oklopol> now, i can draw anything you like with any tile
18:29:49 <itidus21> so if the tile was a 2x2 square.. then one such square could be drawn in red at (0,0) - (1,1) .. then another drawn over that in yellow at (1,1) - (2,2) and another drawn over that in red at (2,2) - (3,3)
18:30:06 <itidus21> and uh pardon the random notations
18:30:54 <oklopol> (if the rule is that i'm allowed to put tiles anywhere on the Z^2 plane, and infinitely many)
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18:31:54 <itidus21> it's my absurd way to describe an image
18:31:57 <oklopol> do you see why it's possible to draw anything?
18:32:28 <itidus21> you mean even a tile larger than 1x1
18:32:41 <itidus21> since you can use just the top left
18:33:41 <oklopol> yeah, it's used all the time when working with group shifts
18:34:16 <oklopol> although with polynomials so that it looks harder.
18:34:29 <itidus21> my motivations to think along these lines are really odd
18:35:36 <itidus21> i did it in a vain search for an underlying structure in 2d sprites
18:35:59 <elliott> oklopol: <BlastHardcheese> oklopode
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18:36:54 <itidus21> like, some way to avoid the brute force method of drawing sprites
18:37:41 <oerjan> something is wrong, the tunes log timezone seems to be on a whole hour...
18:38:47 <itidus21> oklopol: like i began this once by trying to use rectangles instead of patterns
18:39:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: NOW WITH ABSOLUTELY NO EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
18:39:16 <itidus21> for some reason i grew tired of the rectangle idea.
18:39:43 <itidus21> the next idea i had was to represent an image as triangles
18:40:14 <oerjan> rectangles are a symbol of the conformity of the bourgeoisie!
18:40:54 <oerjan> wow i spelled it correctly
18:41:31 <itidus21> like i figured that i could map an entire bitmap to flatshaded non-overlapping rectangles
18:42:05 <itidus21> but when i tried to actually mock it up it all seemed awfully fiddly so i abandoned that
18:42:50 <fizzie> There's that overlapping-polys genetic-programming image-approximation thing that floated around the web a while ago. Mostly because the images look kinda spiffy, not because it'd be an especially good way of doing images; it uses quite low amount of polygons to get the particular paintingy look.
18:42:56 <fizzie> There's a gallery at http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/11/genetic-gallery/
18:43:03 <fizzie> Has links to some of the earlier posts.
18:43:43 <itidus21> but by the time i start combining rectangles and bitmaps in one image i knew i was just recreating vector art
18:45:08 <itidus21> but no, i wanted a vector art married to a precise pixel resolution
18:49:32 <itidus21> while they may not be much use in math, i think that overlapped tiles are great for game graphics.. and underexploited
18:50:49 -!- coppro has set topic: NOW WITH TONS OF EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
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18:52:52 <itidus21> fizzie: yup those triangles are cool
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18:56:15 <itidus21> oklopol: i just realized i didn't understand what you said about m and n at the time
18:56:35 <itidus21> but it doesn't matter.. im looking over it a bit closer
18:58:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: NO EDIT WARS, I SAID | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
19:01:21 <itidus21> oklopol: the important question is would you like to use a paint program based on that principle :P
19:02:24 <itidus21> i have to implement it one day
19:06:41 <itidus21> that would just be the strangest thing ever
19:08:03 <itidus21> i'm selling it short here, but one thing it hints at is a paint program where you click on a pixel to iterate it's colour
19:08:28 <itidus21> i haven't used a mac though.. maybe they done this
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19:09:39 <itidus21> infact you could just use the mousewheel
19:09:50 <zzo38> I don't like mousewheel
19:13:09 <itidus21> zzo38: so one concept arrived at is the idea of a paint program where, suppose its a black and white image.. you left click to toggle the pixel..
19:13:55 <pikhq> mkdir: cannot create directory `/home/pikhq/src/bootstrap-linux/work/gcc-build': File exists
19:14:16 <itidus21> using two buttons you could iterate the colour of the pixel in 2 directions over a small pallette
19:15:57 <oerjan> hm i'd assume there are paint programs which allow this already, although maybe not with a single click. but then again, some allow you to write scripts, so you can probably _make_ it a single click.
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19:16:29 <itidus21> this is the fruit of combining ideas with oklopol
19:16:30 * oerjan is really thinking of gimp here, which he played a bit with, years ago
19:17:19 <itidus21> but not only this.. you would also have a custom "stamp/tile pattern" tool you could draw.. and this would mean you could iterate the colours in a region
19:18:40 <oerjan> also something which you would imagine a script could do
19:19:56 <oerjan> in fact i vaguely recall a program which _did_ allow such tiling
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19:20:20 <oerjan> probably was either gimp or xdvi
19:20:40 <oerjan> it was an option for the copy/paste command
19:21:13 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes that is one thing to do, to make the button iterate over a palette
19:21:52 <zzo38> But probably better is to push the keys on the keyboard to switch the mode, and then depending on the mode it decides what the three mouse buttons do
19:22:11 <oerjan> xdvi was the program to show the result after embedding and running it through latex
19:22:33 <zzo38> xdvi is a DVI previewer.
19:22:46 <zzo38> When on Linux I use that. On Windows I use dviout
19:23:17 <zzo38> And then to print the DVI file on Linux, you can use the command dvilj4 or one of the related programs
19:23:42 <zzo38> On Windows, to print the DVI file select it from the menu
19:24:07 <fizzie> Deluxe Paint is I think the program all pixel artists love and adore and speak good things about. It does all kinds of stamp-pattern stuffs.
19:24:14 <itidus21> wow oklopol solved the wohle problem
19:24:28 <oerjan> anyway, i used xfig for all my thesis pictures, it allowed embedding latex in them without having to code the picture itself in latex
19:24:39 <fizzie> Oh, and stencils and whatnot.
19:25:28 <zzo38> There is another way to include pictures in TeX documents without using any DVI specials; I have written a program for that purpose. It only accepts ASCII PBM format as input but you can convert into that format with ImageMagick.
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19:28:13 <itidus21> what we have come up with, which exceeded my plans, is that you can have a bitmap file format by having nothing more than a list of coordinate addresses for a 1bit stamp/pattern which will be used to iterate a palette
19:28:49 <zzo38> That would seem a pretty bad format although it would work
19:29:47 <zzo38> Here is a program to include pictures in a TeX document: http://sprunge.us/QZFg
19:30:15 <itidus21> i must share credit for it with everyone who participated since my initial post about "<itidus21> I have this idea of a graphics format. Basically what you would expect from me."
19:30:40 <zzo38> At least it is done.
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19:40:26 <zzo38> How does the IFC and IFR fields work in the .IT format?
19:40:41 <quintopia> elliott: how should paragraph breaks be done inside of a bfjprog? enter-twice undoes the insetting of the template.
19:41:05 <elliott> quintopia: see the 2011 section, or the 2012 section now that i fixed it
19:42:27 <zzo38> What else I don't know is how do they switch between pitch/filter envelope?
19:47:16 <itidus21> realizing nothing at all has been achieved is htat it's paintfuck with stamps
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19:51:37 <Vorpal> hm bluetooth is pretty much standard in every modern laptop and netbook right? Why is on-board bluetooth on desktops not common (at least I never heard of it)
19:52:31 <Vorpal> not having on-board wifi is more reasonable, after all a desktop is (or at least used to be) connected by ethernet. But bluetooth mice and so on are not uncommon
20:00:41 <fizzie> I just ignore the IFC and IFR fields (and in fact the midi ones after them), so I don't know what they're for.
20:01:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, surely there must be a spec somewhere that explains it?
20:01:57 <Vorpal> also in what context did you ignore it? Did you implement a tracker?
20:02:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a player, and the official spec is not very complete.
20:02:53 <Vorpal> look at the source of modplugplay or something like that?
20:03:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, also your player, does it do anything modplugplay doesn't?
20:03:22 <fizzie> I don't care to. Anyway, libmikmod sources are what I've used to fill in the blanks.
20:03:26 <Vorpal> if so, where can I download?
20:03:27 <zzo38> fizzie: Looking at the ModPlug Tracker, it seem they might be for the cutoff and resonance but I do not know how they are used. It also doesn't explain how to switch the envelope between filter/pitch (an option in ModPlug).
20:03:56 <zzo38> I am trying to make a program to write .IT file
20:04:21 -!- function has changed nick to const.
20:04:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can't download it anywhere, it certainly doesn't do anything extra except it's only two kilobytes or so and meant for converting an IT file to a self-playing executable.
20:05:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, self playing? So what output device does it use?
20:05:46 <Vorpal> (please please let it use the pc speaker)
20:06:22 <fizzie> (It was for a friend who wanted to participate in an executable music competition.)
20:06:30 <fizzie> /dev/dsp, if I recall correctly.
20:06:51 <Vorpal> hm looks like I need to order a new SIM card. I need a micro sim for my next phone. Which is kind of amusing since it will be significantly larger than my current phone, why would it need a micro sim rather than a mini sim...
20:06:55 <fizzie> It's one of those libc-less things, I wanted to have some fun writing it too.
20:07:18 <olsner> Vorpal: it's just packed full of SO MUCH other stuff
20:07:19 <fizzie> (It's in x86-32 asm for the same reason.)
20:07:29 <Vorpal> olsner, well probably, it is a Samsung Galaxy S3
20:07:41 <Vorpal> and currently I have a small keypad phone so
20:08:11 <Vorpal> still it doesn't save that much
20:08:23 <Vorpal> it isn't like full sized sim -> mini-sim
20:08:27 <Vorpal> that was a much larger change
20:09:34 <Vorpal> hm apperently there is also nano SIM
20:09:45 <olsner> 4.8 inch screen ... and a normal thumb is like 2 inches
20:10:01 <Vorpal> olsner, you don't want your thumb to cover the entire screen surely
20:10:19 <Vorpal> anyway I used another device of similar size and had no issue with it
20:10:45 <Vorpal> (a Samsung Galaxy Nexus. The S3 is like 4 mm wider or something)
20:10:59 <olsner> I usually use my thumb for input while using the rest of my hand to hold the phone
20:11:08 <olsner> but maybe you hang the phone on the wall and use it like LCARS
20:11:46 <olsner> it's that ridiculous touch interface they use in star trek
20:12:59 <nortti> vat ja ty■ll■■n el■v■t h■visiv■t.
20:13:07 <Vorpal> nortti, that looks broken?
20:13:14 <olsner> the galaxy nexus is like too big to be a phone but too small to be a tablet
20:13:26 <nortti> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/britain-unveils-electroni_0_n_1597529.html
20:13:30 <olsner> maybe due to apple lawsuit actions they can't make it the same size as the iphone?
20:13:33 <nortti> this is the correct one
20:13:35 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway I can't really use the thumb for on-screen keyboard for phones, I tend to put my thumb over several keys. I have large hands
20:14:21 <elliott> olsner: there's an OMG BIG PHONES trend on at the moment
20:14:29 <Vorpal> olsner, my thumb is ~7.5 cm (~2.95 inches)
20:14:31 <fizzie> zzo38: If it's cutoff/resonance, then it's part of the filter thing that's very badly documented, and e.g. modplug does/did it wrong; it has some not-in-the-manual 'Z' effects to control it too. It's some standard second-order IIR filter that it has.
20:15:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I predict that in 5-10 years we will be approaching the size of the early phones. Like small bags
20:15:20 <fizzie> zzo38: The formulas are documented in http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Impulse_Tracker#Resonant_filters if you really want to support them.
20:15:38 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway how can you do multitouch by just using your thumb
20:16:08 <olsner> but they have limited range
20:16:21 <Vorpal> olsner, I guess you just have small hands
20:16:41 <zzo38> fizzie: My program is meant for writing .IT musics not for playing them.
20:16:42 <fizzie> "It's not the size of the hand..."
20:17:21 <olsner> I think my hands aren't small, they're just not big enough to comfortably use the whole screen of a modern smartphone
20:17:23 <fizzie> zzo38: Well, yes, but if you want to support setting those values in some reasonable units, like Hz.
20:17:28 <nortti> I can type on my HTC Wildfire with my thumbs just fine. but then again I use GKOS keyboard
20:17:37 <Vorpal> olsner, from left ctrl on a full size standard PC keyboard (where left ctrl is the key in the bottom left corner, no funny fn-key stuff) how far can you reach? I can reach p comfortably with my right hand (thumb on ctrl, little finger on p)
20:17:44 <Vorpal> å I can reach if I stretch
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20:18:42 <oerjan> elliott: i'm looking at your reformatting, should a word in the introduction be bolded when it's really another article with a subset of the current name?
20:18:47 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the GKOS? I tend to use swype on phones
20:19:04 <nortti> Vorpal: 6 key chordede keyboard
20:19:23 <olsner> Vorpal: I can reach +åä- if I try
20:19:26 <elliott> oerjan: well I believe that is what WP's MOS states
20:19:33 <elliott> oerjan: it's a bit of an edge-case here
20:19:42 <Vorpal> olsner, ä is easy to reach for me
20:19:50 <nortti> but actually the touch version has 12 keys
20:20:09 <elliott> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Format_of_the_first_sentence
20:20:20 <Vorpal> elliott, thought it was a weird typo for TOS
20:20:56 <olsner> Vorpal: anyway, it's not a question of stuff being completely unreachable
20:20:58 <elliott> it doesn't seem to be covered there
20:21:11 <olsner> Vorpal: more that reaching the other end of the screen at the same time as holding the device is tricky and uncomfortable
20:21:32 <nortti> Vorpal: so you can easily simulate pressing 5 keys with your thumbs
20:21:38 <zzo38> fizzie: Also, that document does not explain the purpose of the IFC and IFR fields.
20:21:39 <Vorpal> olsner, well yes, but I can't type using just the thumb on a non-keypad phone anyway. I can scroll just fine with my thumb though
20:21:39 <olsner> and the problem is trivially solvable by not making the phone ridiculously big for no reason in the first place
20:21:50 <Vorpal> olsner, so yeah I don't think using such a phone is an issue.
20:22:08 <Vorpal> you can't make pixels that small
20:22:10 <oerjan> elliott: um "If the article's exact title is absent from the first sentence, do not apply the bold style to related text that does appear:" seems clear enough
20:22:26 <elliott> oerjan: yes, which is why that was the wrong thing to cite, I've definitely read otherwise elsewhere
20:22:29 <elliott> perhaps it was changed recently
20:22:33 <Vorpal> ~320 DPI is about max currently AFAIK (unless you go for electronic ink stuff)
20:22:36 <olsner> Vorpal: you will get some kind of RSI due to using your phone and then you will realize I am right
20:22:49 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm likely to use both hands if I'm typing
20:23:00 <Vorpal> I can't see why I should use just one hand for that anyway
20:23:20 <olsner> "Excuse me, sir, could you hold my phone while I use both my hands to type an SMS to my friend?"
20:23:32 <oerjan> elliott: in fact i read that section recently, which may be why your edit triggered my protest
20:23:35 <Vorpal> olsner, you hold it with one hand and type with the other?
20:23:42 <Vorpal> what are you talking about
20:23:52 <elliott> oerjan: you could just undo it
20:23:58 <olsner> Vorpal: no, that would be silly
20:24:16 <Vorpal> it is how I always done it on touch screens
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20:25:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, you need to do it like that anyway when you use google maps or such
20:26:10 <olsner> sounds like you'd have to use it like lcars then, holding your whole arm up to let your hand hover above the screen
20:26:33 <olsner> sure, you have to do that anyway for multi-touch
20:26:37 <elliott> oerjan: well http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section&oldid=449845029#Format_of_the_first_sentence does not have that wording
20:26:46 <elliott> so it is clearly a new addition
20:26:51 <Vorpal> olsner, what about multi touch keyboard input?
20:27:13 <Vorpal> not sure, it sounds awesome though
20:27:41 <Vorpal> hey you know what, a Datahand hooked up to your phone, that would be ergonomic
20:28:03 <oklopol> let me just test something
20:28:18 <fizzie> zzo38: I *think* that they give the cutoff/resonance values for (0..127, and then one bit designates if it's used or not; maybe modplug code can make this clear?) and then (if enabled) the filter gets applied to the output of a channel when notes of the corresponding instrument are played on it.
20:28:33 <fizzie> (But I'm certainly not sure.)
20:28:58 <fizzie> The version of mikmod I have here just ignores them. The filters are kind of a late addition.
20:30:40 <fizzie> One-handed operation is I think a frequently considered use case when it comes to smartphone UI design. (It's probably best not to ponder what the other hand is doing.)
20:31:00 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway the solution is obvious. Make the keyboard just take up like the left or right half of the screen
20:31:06 <Vorpal> rather than the full width
20:31:11 <olsner> anyway, with a small screen you can use one hand for everything that only relies on single touches... with a big screen you either need to contort your hand to reach or you need to switch grip entirely and use both hands
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20:32:12 <olsner> it's not just typing (besides, that's ridiculously painful regardless), but e.g. dragging down the notification bar requires reaching the very top of the screen
20:32:21 <olsner> and there may be other interactible elements there too
20:32:57 <fizzie> I'm a bit disappointed that the iPod doesn't do sidetalking. It would be the absolute best, with a device of that size.
20:33:06 <Vorpal> olsner, true, just tilt the screen and it is way closer XD
20:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: you have my blessing to rever tthat bolding anyway
20:34:06 <olsner> someone should make a banana-shaped phone where everything is within thumb reach
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20:34:16 <fizzie> Also yesterday I witnessed a credit card payment made by sticking a credit card into a small square box stuck at the bottom of an iPod, and then "signing" the receipt by finger-writing on the screen.
20:35:07 <oerjan> elliott: there seems to be a lot of discussion about this stuff in recent talk page archives
20:35:43 <elliott> well, the bold is ugly, at least :P
20:36:10 <pikhq> fizzie: That's like two year old tech. :)
20:36:15 <oerjan> there is also a mention of a specific rule not to bold text with links in :P
20:36:21 <pikhq> Also, you'd be kinda amused how that works.
20:36:26 <fizzie> It was done with http://www.izettle.com/ who reportedly have a kinda funky business model; they give out the card reader for free, and don't have any monthly contract subscription prices; they just take a cut (1%? 2%?) of the transaction. It's designed for very low-volume users.
20:36:55 <pikhq> The square box is a magnet read head wired to the audio in jack.
20:37:30 <fizzie> They're a "social payments company".
20:37:58 <Vorpal> why doesn't it simply use the code?
20:38:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
20:38:05 <fizzie> Anyway, it talks to the chip so it's not a magnet-stripe reader.
20:38:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 36.7
20:38:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the magnet stripe still used?
20:38:29 <pikhq> You weird Europeans, with your smart cards in the chip.
20:38:33 <Vorpal> iirc it isn't in Sweden
20:38:37 <pikhq> Erm, chips in the card.
20:38:49 <fizzie> I don't really know why it doesn't do the PIN thing. Maybe it's explained on the page.
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20:38:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 0.0
20:39:04 <pikhq> In the US, bank cards generally *only* have magnetic stripes.
20:39:27 <pikhq> Because upgrading infrastructure is for squares.
20:39:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, hey in Sweden if there is any fraud related to a card reader in a shop using the magnet strip rather than the chip they bear the full financial responsibility for it
20:39:57 <Vorpal> after they made that change everyone switched very quickly
20:40:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Doesn't do you any good if nobody *has* cards with chips.
20:41:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, well everyone does over here
20:41:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, haven't seen one without a chip for over 15 years by now
20:41:27 <Vorpal> I remember them from when I was like 5 years old
20:41:32 <fizzie> It used to be so that you could read the mag-stripe info out of the chip without knowing the PIN, and then use that to print a stripe-only clone card and (ab)use it elsewhere. That I think got some sort of a fix already, though.
20:41:54 <Lumpio-> A magnetic strip is completely passive
20:42:07 <pikhq> Of course, rolling those out would probably screw up the tactic of literally mailing credit cards to people that you only need to call to activate.
20:42:09 <Vorpal> I think the keys should be on the card itself
20:42:11 <Lumpio-> If you create a copy of it, and the machine only reads the strip, it shouldn't be able to tell the difference
20:42:17 <Vorpal> and display of the sum
20:42:27 <Vorpal> that way you could completely prevent fraud
20:42:34 <Vorpal> can't see how you could do that otherwise
20:42:41 <elliott> Vorpal: cards should clearly have a private key on them
20:42:46 <Lumpio-> Somebody already made cards with build-in displays and keypads
20:42:51 <Lumpio-> They're not widely used yet though.
20:42:52 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Of course, rolling those out would probably screw up the tactic of literally mailing credit cards to people that you only need to call to activate. <-- huh what?
20:42:55 <elliott> and produce pgp-signed digital cheques
20:42:59 <elliott> actually that sounds like a good idea
20:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, that would work
20:43:06 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Yes, but they fixed the part where you can ask the chip for the mag-stripe data without the PIN, so it can't get cloned just by sticking the chip part somewhere.
20:43:13 <Lumpio-> Cheques? I haven't seen one of those in... actually I've never seen one being used in a normal transaction
20:43:16 <Vorpal> elliott, then your bank could verify that
20:43:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: You get mailed credit cards in your junk mail. Call to activate. I shit you not.
20:43:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, US. You shit the rest of the world
20:43:41 <elliott> Lumpio-: well a "digital cheque" is just a cryptographically signed message containing a number :P
20:43:43 <Lumpio-> fizzie: What if you read the mag-stripe part off the stripe
20:43:53 <Lumpio-> elliott: It's still a foreign word to me.
20:43:59 <pikhq> Lumpio-: They're *rare*, but certainly in use in the US.
20:44:09 <elliott> bonus is that people would get phone attachments that let them plug into digital cheque acceptors and then people will steal phones for the cash
20:44:24 <Vorpal> I seen cheques being used
20:44:26 <elliott> because of course nobody will think to require putting a password on the private key
20:44:36 <elliott> they'll add a "remember password" button
20:44:42 <pikhq> You're either using it to pay an individual or really small entity without a card reader, or because you're really old.
20:45:00 <pikhq> Or to mail money, I guess.
20:45:03 <Lumpio-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgDWMh2D0b8 the video is a bit dumbed-down but something like this
20:45:21 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Then you can obviously copy it. But this was in context of non-noticeable card-cloning dealies on top of an ATM, where you can't just tell people to swipe the card instead.
20:45:22 <Lumpio-> It doesn't verify the sum though.
20:45:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah I had cheques mailed to me by an elderly aunt for birthdays
20:45:33 <elliott> anyway the design of credit cards are stupid as hell, what else is new
20:45:54 <Lumpio-> Well, like everything that was made before fast ubiquitous interwebs
20:45:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, only a couple of years ago she started just going to the bank office and doing the transaction directly
20:46:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
20:46:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 37.6
20:46:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is really insanely hard to do in the US for some reason.
20:46:18 <Lumpio-> In its plainest form, no authentication built-in whatsoever
20:46:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, going to the bank office?
20:46:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Depositing into someone else's account.
20:46:38 <Vorpal> she doesn't have internet afaik
20:46:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, how/why is it hard?
20:46:49 <pikhq> Lumpio-: I don't know!
20:47:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it hard?
20:47:10 <Vorpal> I can easily do that from my internet bank
20:47:11 <quintopia> pikhq: transfers to other accounts arent that hard?
20:47:18 <Lumpio-> Here you just go to your bank's website, enter their account number (it also identifies the country and bank these days), a sum and click "ok"
20:47:36 <Lumpio-> ...you can also do it by filling in a form and leaving it at the bank physically if you're a computer-challenged person
20:47:47 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, and then you get a challenge code that you enter on your hard certificate device and you enter the reply code on the bank website
20:47:52 <Vorpal> don't forget that step
20:47:56 <Vorpal> it is a card reader thingy
20:48:04 <Lumpio-> Our "hard certificate device" is a one-time pad of numbers
20:48:08 <Vorpal> (the hard certificate, so you put your bank card in it)
20:48:13 <Vorpal> (and use your PIN code)
20:48:18 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, we get ours from the bank too
20:48:26 <Lumpio-> At any rate that isn't hard either.
20:48:33 <Lumpio-> Yeah but here they're like
20:48:34 <Vorpal> it is just that it is a card reader and works by challenge-response
20:48:51 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, that sounds stupid. Someone could just steal that pad
20:49:07 <Vorpal> where in my case they would need to steal my bank card and my PIN
20:49:09 <Lumpio-> Which is why having a PIN authenticator would be neat but I don't think they do that yet.
20:49:23 <Lumpio-> ...they'd also need your password though
20:49:31 <Lumpio-> Which you're supposed to memorize (but I bet most people just write it on the pad)
20:49:51 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, here it all works by the challenge-response thingy. Even login.
20:50:03 <Vorpal> I think they could add a password as well, that would be good
20:50:24 <Lumpio-> The more passwords you have the more likely are people to write them down
20:50:58 <Vorpal> also the challenge response code is like 10 digits iirc?
20:51:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, iZettle uses chip-and-sign because PCI only certifies separate chip-and-pin terminal devices with their own PIN entry keypads, and certainly won't appreciate iPad apps.
20:51:30 <Lumpio-> Most cards lock out after 3 incorrect tries don't they
20:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, PCI? As in the PCI bus?
20:51:48 <Lumpio-> 1/3333 chance of getting it right (actually it's higher since they won't let you use some PINs like 1111)
20:52:21 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, my bank doesn't let me change PIN. Good idea really
20:52:29 <Vorpal> so you have to learn whatever PIN they give your card
20:52:33 <pikhq> quintopia: Wire transfers cost money, and going through ACH allows the recepient to withdraw from your account.
20:53:13 <Lumpio-> Wut, draw from your account?
20:53:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: As in the Payment Card Industry Security Standards Council who defined PCI-DSS.
20:53:19 <Lumpio-> I dunno if that's even possible here
20:53:22 <quintopia> i'm assuming we're talking about accounts at the same bank, yes?
20:53:30 <pikhq> "Automated Clearing House"... An electronic payment thing that's basically designed only around bill payments and payroll.
20:53:38 <Lumpio-> There used to be a system that big companies could use called "direct charge" or something where they could take money from you but
20:53:52 <Lumpio-> I think it got replaced by an "e-bill" system where you need to authorize them
20:54:08 <pikhq> Lumpio-: We would be on the "direct charge" system.
20:54:32 <pikhq> With wire transfers being little-used because a bank will charge like $20 just to do them.
20:54:43 <Lumpio-> When you use e-bills (pretty much everybody supports them nowadays) you get them in your inbox online and you can view them and pay them with one click
20:54:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they do that? And what is a wire transfer?
20:54:59 <Lumpio-> Plus the best part is that you can also set an automatic payment limit
20:55:08 <Lumpio-> Like "automatically pay bills from company X up to Y EUR/month"
20:55:16 <Lumpio-> Which is great because otherwise I'd never remember to pay my bills.
20:55:30 <Lumpio-> "Wire transfer" is what I always hear in American TV shows
20:55:44 <Lumpio-> Probably some kind of ancient and overly complicated method of transferring money from one account to another
20:55:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a bit of a silliness because reseach folk have hacked open all manner of PCI-certified POS terminals, so it's certainly not "safe" to stick in your card in any hole anyway.
20:55:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: A wire transfer is a means of transmitting money that dates back to the telegram.
20:56:14 <pikhq> Because, again, fuck upgrading infrastructure.
20:56:31 <Lumpio-> Fuck anything besides COBOL and PDP-11
20:56:46 <Lumpio-> It worked for our ancestors, why wouldn't it work for us!
20:57:17 <elliott> fizzie: That's not the only thing it's not safe to stick in holes in the wall!!!!
20:57:44 <pikhq> So, yeah. Cash, checks, and magnetic stripe cards are the only usable things.
20:57:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does it work then?
20:58:24 <Lumpio-> I think there's exactly one chain of stores left that doesn't take chip cards
20:58:40 <pikhq> I don't know the details.
20:58:44 <Lumpio-> Or well doesn't use the chip
20:58:49 <fizzie> Lumpio-: The "direct charge" thing won't be totally dismantled until 2014, but it's certainly quite deprecated by now.
20:58:50 <Lumpio-> Not that there are any cards without chips left
21:00:13 <fizzie> The rent for the student housing at the university used to use that scheme. I don't know if they're e-billing people yet.
21:00:51 <Lumpio-> Or well pre-filled bank transfer sheets
21:01:05 <Lumpio-> Which is a waste of paper because they're just the same information over and over with a different date
21:02:21 <pikhq> On a slightly unrelated note, it can be quite "delightful" dealing with bureaucracies here.
21:02:36 <pikhq> Like, who the hell actually expects a fax these days? Apparently bureaucracy.
21:03:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is direct charge?
21:03:06 <pikhq> A friggin' fax machine!
21:03:35 <Vorpal> I thought that was like the bank being set up to send a monthly transfer somewhere or such
21:03:45 <Lumpio-> I've never touched a fax machine
21:03:52 <fizzie> Our... uh, I don't know the word. The money that goes to the pseudo-company running this apartment building? Anyway, that, goes so that they mail one paper bill with rows for 12 months, each with a checkbox, and then if you want you can tick each box after you've paid it. (I just set up a monthly repeated payment.)
21:03:57 <Lumpio-> Although I hear they still use them to send signed contracts or whatever around
21:04:05 <Lumpio-> Because it's apparently more "trustworthy" than e-mail
21:04:19 <Lumpio-> Which only goes to further prove that old people only find old things trustworthy.
21:05:01 <elliott> Well, email is not very trustworthy.
21:05:13 <Lumpio-> Are faxes any more trustworthy
21:05:25 <pikhq> elliott: Fax is a photosensor, an ADC, and a modem.
21:05:25 <elliott> They go through a lot less stuff, don't they?
21:05:36 <Lumpio-> If we're talking about somebody who's willing to go as far as forge contracts or whatnot
21:05:46 <pikhq> elliott: They mean "trustworthy" in the sense of forgery.
21:05:58 <elliott> pikhq: Right, so the question is one of interception, right?
21:06:18 <fizzie> They're very trustworthy. There was that story about a prison "escape" that happened by the prisoner's friend sending a "hey, release the guy" fax from the local copy shop.
21:06:40 <pikhq> Not... Really. The question is one of sending utterly bogus stuff.
21:06:53 <pikhq> The assumption for some reason is "if it's a fax, it's real"
21:06:56 <fizzie> IEEE wanted me to fax them a signed copyright-contract form for a conference once.
21:08:04 <pikhq> We're talking people who probably think that they actually get offers on dick elongation that can *actually do that*.
21:08:32 <fizzie> I vaguely recall they had some alternative to faxing, though. But maybe it was just snailmailing it.
21:09:25 <Lumpio-> Old people trust faxes because they're easy to understand!
21:09:29 <fizzie> "Send the signed Copyright Transfer form by October 15, 2008 (HARD DEADLINE!), to the conference secretariat by fax or scanned email"
21:09:30 <Lumpio-> I mean c'mon it's like dialing the phone!
21:09:44 <Lumpio-> None of them new-fangled internets or e-mails
21:09:49 <fizzie> Oh, they don't mind a scan-and-email, at least at this conference.
21:10:16 <fizzie> "Remember that your paper cannot be included in the conference proceedings without the signed IEEE Copyright Transfer form. Electronic signatures will not be accepted.
21:10:19 <fizzie> Due to new IEEE regulations, the author who signed the copyright transfer form or the presenter will be required to resign this form at the conference because the original handwritten signature must be filed with the IEEE Headquarters."
21:11:01 <fizzie> It's not exactly clear how they're going to tell whether I've pasted the signature in rather than signing and scanning it.
21:12:57 <pikhq> Pasting the signature in is "impossible", they think.
21:13:08 <pikhq> If you tell them you did that, they will think you are a wizard to rival Merlin.
21:15:54 <fizzie> I think I mentioned this before, but recently I had to pay a travel agency some money, and they solved the "email is not encrypted so it can't be used to send credit card info" by requesting the card number and the CVV number in two separate emails. Because, you know, how would someone catch *both*?
21:16:31 <fizzie> (I think a phone call was an option for the CVV, though.)
21:16:33 <pikhq> Gotta love people having no clue how any of this stuff works.
21:16:34 <Lumpio-> We've had people send over stuff partially as SMS and partially via e-mail
21:16:41 <olsner> besides, even if they did catch both mails, they have no way of knowing which mail is the card number and which is the CVV
21:17:11 <pikhq> olsner: strlen will handle that. :)
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21:31:56 <Vorpal> what /IS/ the CVV actually? As in, how does it work. I know it is the 3 digits on the back thingy but apart from that? No clue
21:34:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw you americans without chips in your cards would run into issues if you visited Sweden. Usually the magnetic stripe thingy is taped over these days
21:34:58 <Vorpal> so people don't use it instead of the chip
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21:41:55 <fizzie> The code is just additional numbers (that are not on the magnetic strip) that are sometimes (often?) required when doing a "card not present" transaction, i.e. the merchant is not actually given the card, just its details over the phone/internet/whatever.
21:42:22 <Vorpal> yeah I think I only ever used it with paypal?
21:42:55 <Vorpal> verified by visa stuff doesn't use it. It uses my card reader instead
21:43:04 <fizzie> The idea being that if you stick a card-skimmer over an ATM card slot, it can't copy that number, so you'll actually need to be physically present when using the cloned card, so it's easier to get caught.
21:43:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it isn't on the strip then how can it not be possible to just copy the data on the strip?
21:44:06 <Vorpal> why can't you just copy the data on the strip
21:44:11 <Vorpal> why would you need the CSC
21:44:22 <fizzie> Sure you can, but the code is not on it.
21:44:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, but the CSC is not needed when paying in a shop anyway. You just need the copy the card data and presumably the PIN
21:45:04 <Vorpal> you can use a card skimmer and an add-on keypad on top of the original one
21:45:06 <fizzie> I *just* mentioned this.
21:45:07 <Vorpal> what more would you need
21:45:23 <Vorpal> there is no more data that you need as far as I can see
21:45:31 <fizzie> You can't use the copied card over the internet/phone/whatever, is the point.
21:45:43 <fizzie> Because the merchant would require the code.
21:45:45 <Vorpal> but you could use it in a normal shop just fine
21:45:55 <fizzie> Sure, and get caught just fine too.
21:46:11 <fizzie> Since you need to be there in the shop with the card.
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21:46:23 <Vorpal> hm, who said you would get caught? You wouldn't use it more than a couple of times the same day
21:46:51 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's obviously an imperfect security measure. The point still remains.
21:50:35 <fizzie> Most of the credit card misuse strategies are based on ordering stuff online (to other people, who then pay you via Western Union or whatever), anyway, and it'll at least attempt to block those. (Well, I suppose whoever copied the card is most likely to sell the details forward, but anyway at some point someone's going to have to use it.)
21:52:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, why western union?
21:52:37 <fizzie> Because from what I know it's not very traceable.
21:54:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, well, we'd have trouble *anyways*.
21:54:07 <fizzie> "Western Union advises its customers not to send money to someone that they have never met in person. Despite its efforts in increasing customers' awareness of the issue,[17] Western Union is used for internet fraud by scammers.[18]"
21:54:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Some banks like to charge for international use.
21:54:43 <Lumpio-> Meeting in person is overrated
21:54:49 <pikhq> Others will disable your card, under the assumption that it's fraud.
21:55:03 <Vorpal> banks liking to charge is no news
21:55:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, so you mean that they disable your card if you are on holidays in a different country?
21:55:48 <fizzie> Apparently eBay have banned it. (Though I'm sure you can still find eBay people willing to pay with it, especially since they'll be getting the merchandise before paying, so it all seems quite legit.)
21:56:01 <pikhq> Unless you go out of your way to tell them "I will be out of the country".
21:56:20 <Vorpal> I guess I best watch out for that in the future
21:56:41 <pikhq> It also sucks heavily if you want to use a cell phone abroad.
21:57:03 <pikhq> I swear, the data plans are from the 90s.
21:57:08 <pikhq> Charge per *megabyte*?
21:57:14 <fizzie> Banks around here also disable cards if they're used in a physically unlikely way; say, in country A, then five minutes later in country B, then again 15 minutes later in country A. (With A and B being non-neighbours.)
21:57:38 <fizzie> Well, roaming data isn't really any better in Europe, I don't think.
21:57:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, roaming rates are absurd
21:57:52 <pikhq> You also get absurd charges for international voice...
21:58:02 <pikhq> And all this assumes you have a phone that functions internationally.
21:58:17 <pikhq> The North American GSM frequencies are different from the rest of the world.
21:58:24 <fizzie> They have some EU-wide maximum-charge limit nowadays, for data and SMS and I think voice too. But the limits are quite high.
21:58:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, I saw an ad recently for an international mobile pay plan. With a cost of 137 SEK / day. At least it was per day but that cost is more than what I pay per *month* for my plan
21:58:37 <fizzie> The data part is IIRC pretty new.
21:58:56 <pikhq> That's friggin' charging just to charge.
21:59:02 <Vorpal> 137 SEK is $19.71 apperently
21:59:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway that was like the max cost per day when roaming
21:59:22 <pikhq> Wait, you pay $19.71 per month? Lucky bastards.
21:59:25 <Vorpal> it just seemed absurd to me
21:59:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, no I pay $14.24
21:59:48 <Vorpal> I wouldn't pay a bloody $19.71
21:59:56 <Vorpal> that is just stupidly much
22:00:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: US cell plans start at $39.99/mo.
22:00:36 <pikhq> Or 10¢/min. if you go with a prepaid phone.
22:00:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, my plan is a student one though. IIRC it costs like 150 normally ($21)
22:01:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway it is heavy on data but not on calls
22:01:07 <pikhq> (benefit of a prepaid phone being that that minutely charge is the only charge at all, so if you don't call much, well.)
22:01:26 <Vorpal> I get a LOT of data (and even when I reach the limit of 4 GB / month it just slows down, it doesn't cost me more)
22:01:33 <fizzie> I pay $12.51/mon, but it's speed-limited to something rather slow; it's an old deal, and I haven't changed because it comes with a "slave SIM" thing and a USB 3G stick, so I can have both the phone and the laptop interwebbed simultaneously. Not that I ever really use that, but the idea is nice.
22:01:36 <Vorpal> and I get 5000 SMS / month (as if I would ever reach that)
22:01:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's a plan *without* data.
22:01:44 <Vorpal> but voice calls cost a bit more
22:01:57 <Vorpal> when I got the plan I didn't do many voice calls though
22:02:35 <Vorpal> nowdays I do that more, if it keeps at the current level (more than usual currently, since I'm looking for a job), I might change plan
22:02:40 <Vorpal> so I get cheaper voice calls
22:02:47 <pikhq> Data starts at an additional $15/mo.
22:03:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, because in practise it ends up at more than 99 SEK / month due to the voice calls currently. Last month was 127 SEK iirc
22:03:10 <pikhq> (all rates from AT&T)
22:03:21 <Vorpal> that is a whopping $18.27
22:03:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or $3.27 more than 250MB of data on *top* of a cell plan in the US.
22:04:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway the point here was that 137 SEK / day was advertised as a roaming cost. And that is $19.71 / day roaming
22:04:24 <Vorpal> if that is advertised as especially low roaming cost
22:04:32 <Vorpal> then I don't want to know what the usual cost is
22:05:08 <Vorpal> but yeah roaming needs to be cheaper
22:05:10 <pikhq> I'm just amazed you can have such a god-damned low rate.
22:05:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, remember it is a student plan though
22:05:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, and the normal rate is still half a normal US rate.
22:05:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, and there are no included voice minutes in it
22:06:03 <Vorpal> a lot of SMS and data though
22:06:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: And there are no data or SMS included in that rate.
22:06:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, and iirc very cheap call to anyone else with Telia. Only issue, no one that I know currently use Telia. My dad used to, but he switched to Telenor years ago, and a couple of months ago he switched to Tele2
22:07:16 <Vorpal> so pretty useless that cheap call for me
22:07:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm getting a new phone soon btw. Going for a Samsung Galaxy S3
22:08:27 <Vorpal> so I need to order a MicroSIM as well. I have MiniSIM currently. All very amusing since the new phone will be larger than my current one.
22:08:45 <Vorpal> I'm of course going to buy the phone separately from my plan
22:08:56 <Vorpal> only idiots would buy the phone with the plan IMO
22:09:00 <fizzie> Apparently the maximum roaming data rate in EU is 0.50 EUR/megabyte. (But that's a price ceiling on how much the roaming network operator can charge from the customer's home operator, so it's not directly a ceiling on how much the end-user must pay.)
22:09:26 <Vorpal> that is still quite a lot
22:09:59 <fizzie> Sure, but at least there's a ceiling. Some of the per-megabyte prices were really something else, before.
22:10:35 <Vorpal> I don't get why they would do that
22:10:43 <Vorpal> the roaming *call* costs are absurd as well
22:10:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:52 <fizzie> Because they like to get money?
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22:11:03 <Vorpal> it would be cheaper getting a pre-paid card in the country you are visiting
22:11:27 <oerjan_> hm so that's why it went silent
22:11:31 <fizzie> People do do that. Especially now that you can sometimes find sensible pre-paid data.
22:11:35 <Vorpal> pre-paid with data can be quite cheap here
22:12:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I used to have pre-paid with data. IIRC it was max 9 SEK per day for data.
22:12:04 <Vorpal> or something like that
22:12:31 <fizzie> Anyway, I had this UDP-based "I send this packet and it resends the contents as email to all our relatives" setup for one trip. Even with the silly per-megabyte price, they charged at 50kiB granularity, and the price for one connect+send+disconnect was less than a single SMS.
22:12:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they round up or down?
22:13:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you wrote a software for that or you used an existing one?
22:13:27 <fizzie> But it was still just one unit per message, IIRC.
22:14:02 <fizzie> It was a Perl script at the server end, and J2ME locally, I think. The phone I was using at the time wasn't very smart.
22:14:21 <fizzie> Haven't seen existing software for that.
22:14:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Aaaah, stupid charging.
22:14:46 <pikhq> A charge for SMS is overcharging.
22:15:15 <Vorpal> also stupid frequency issues when you visit different parts of the world
22:15:24 <Vorpal> sometimes the frequency bands are completely different
22:15:30 <Vorpal> and the phone doesn't work anyway
22:15:39 <fizzie> 0.1342 EUR/SMS is the corresponding EU region ceiling for that. But that's also a new thing.
22:16:09 <pikhq> fizzie: That's approx. 0.1342 EUR too many..;
22:16:17 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split).
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22:16:19 <Vorpal> 1.188 SEK? That is an absurd cost
22:16:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:16:56 <oerjan_> huh 0.1342 eur is precisely 1 nok
22:16:57 <Vorpal> btw I wonder why my plan says 5000 free SMS / month, and iirc there is an upgrade option for even more
22:17:03 <Vorpal> who the hell is going to use that?
22:17:19 <Vorpal> I mean, 5000 SMS per month is A LOT
22:17:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: People do. The statistics are really crazy.
22:17:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, how could anyone type 5000 SMS in a month on a PHONE
22:17:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some average three-digit numbers daily.
22:17:42 <Vorpal> without breaking their fingers
22:18:07 <fizzie> They use it like IRC except pay per line. :p
22:18:09 <Vorpal> I think I average 150 / year r so
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22:18:43 <fizzie> The overall average for the 12-17 age group in the US seems to be 60/day.
22:19:19 <fizzie> Admittedly that's just 1800/month, but it's the average. Some go higher.
22:19:22 <Vorpal> according to my phone I sent a total of 712 SMS (it says 712/743, I think were long and thus split in two internally or something)
22:19:32 <Vorpal> and I don't think I ever reset that counter
22:19:40 <Vorpal> so a bit more than 150 / year
22:19:50 <fizzie> Average for 14-17 seems to be about 100/day.
22:20:05 <Vorpal> still I had it for like 6 years or so by now
22:20:22 <pikhq> So. 140 bytes per SMS.
22:20:44 <pikhq> 5000 free SMS -> 683 free kilobytes.
22:20:51 <Vorpal> also I'm a net-importer of SMS: 737/760 is the received SMS count
22:21:37 <fizzie> Overall average in Finland is 3/day, apparently, but it would make more sense to compare the same age group; I just don't have that number on this Google results page.
22:21:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, well you get 2 GB free data before it slows down to like 80 kb/s (instead of 6 MB/s or whatever it is supposed to be, my phone is slower than that anyway)
22:22:19 <pikhq> Also, that roaming rate is... 0.9815EUR / kilobyte.
22:22:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, so more than the per mb then?
22:23:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, definitely way less than 1 / day for me. However I do tend to go weeks without a single SMS and then send like three on the same day
22:23:41 <fizzie> I average about three per month, I think.
22:23:54 <Vorpal> we are a different generation I guess
22:24:15 <Vorpal> we should ask elliott how many he sends
22:24:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hey! How many SMS do you write per day approximately?
22:24:55 <shachaf> Let me check how many I send per day.
22:25:02 <shachaf> Hmm, it says "like a billion".
22:25:34 <fizzie> But he's not in US. We'd need a 14-to-17-year-old from the US, to verify that 100/day figure.
22:27:03 <Vorpal> elliott, how many per year?
22:27:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how many SMS do you send per day (or another suitable time unit if the answer would be <1)
22:28:31 <elliott> monqy ages 1 year per year
22:28:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i have sent 0 smses in 2012
22:30:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about MMS?
22:30:52 <Vorpal> I once received an MMS
22:31:01 <Vorpal> and my phone didn't support it
22:31:06 <Vorpal> so I have no idea what it was
22:31:33 <Vorpal> I asked the guy who sent it and he had no clue he had done that. So probably it was a misclick or something
22:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, so yeah, any MMS figures?
22:32:32 <fizzie> I've received three, but they come in as a SMS with a link to the operator's website where I can look at it, because I don't have the "can receive MMS" flag turned on at the operator. (It's turned on if you ever send one, or you can toggle it on manually from their settings page.)
22:33:04 <Vorpal> according to wikipedia the most active country in Europe for MMS is Norway
22:33:19 <fizzie> I can recall the contents of only two, but I think there was a third.
22:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how many SMS do you send per day (or another suitable time unit if the answer would be <1)
22:36:55 <fizzie> I've sent *two* yesterday. My quota for the month is almost up, it seems. (Though I sent 0 in May, so maybe it balances out.)
22:37:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So less than 32?
22:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about MMS? You ever received or sent any?
22:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *Maybe* a few more, but we're talking the better part of a decade ago for that.
22:39:17 <fizzie> Funnily enough, the VDSL2 at home comes with some (10/month or so?) free SMSes. You send them from the ISP's "account settings" web thing. (They're also a cellphone operator. But it's still kinda weird.)
22:39:36 <Vorpal> and the low limit is even more weird
22:39:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: my phone _still_ doesn't support MMS :P
22:39:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, still? Have I asked you before?
22:40:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, how many SMS do you send per day (or other more suitable time unit if answer is <1)
22:40:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can buy more, I think. But it's not a very advertised service, don't know if anyone really uses it. (I suspect a bored programmer implemented it.)
22:41:36 <Vorpal> btw how does the thing where you send an SMS to a specific number (usually a normally non-valid one) and get configuration data for data or mms back work?
22:41:47 <Vorpal> usually the phone somehow just interprets that directly
22:41:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: lessee, i cannot quite recall how many months since my last one.
22:43:19 <Vorpal> I just realised that the SMS message length and the twitter message length is the same. I wonder if that is a co-incidence.
22:43:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, 140 in both cases?
22:43:45 <fizzie> 160 characters for SMS.
22:43:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, not according to wikipedia
22:44:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how many bits per char?
22:44:26 <Vorpal> err I used unicode in SMS
22:44:31 <Vorpal> and it worked just fine
22:44:42 <fizzie> It eats multiple characters, too.
22:45:15 <fizzie> If you have a character counter it should jump if you put special-enough characters in.
22:45:28 <pikhq> Apparently it's either the GSM 7-bit encoding, straight octets, or UTF-16.
22:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm wikipedia claims UCS2
22:45:58 <pikhq> Ugh, that's even more moronic.
22:46:18 <Vorpal> hm my phone says 1000/1
22:46:23 <Vorpal> that is a strange count
22:46:51 <fizzie> It is, because that's not the maximum limit for concatenated messages, I don't think.
22:47:05 <fizzie> The "1" is probably the number of messages.
22:47:36 <fizzie> I seem to recall there was some even stranger escape mechanism when sending a message with the 7-bit alphabet and just having individual special characters.
22:48:07 <Vorpal> also mashing the 1 gives me a smiley (T9 word thingy)
22:48:30 <Vorpal> it supports up to 8 concatenated :-) before it gives me a question mark that the word is unknown
22:49:08 <fizzie> "Note that on many GSM smartphones, there's no specific preselection of the UCS-2 encoding. The default is to use the 7-bit encoding above, until one enters a character that is not present in the GSM 7-bit table (for example the lowercase c with cedilla 'ç'). In that case, the whole message gets reencoded using the UCS-2 encoding, and the maximum length of the message sent in only 1 SMS is ...
22:49:15 <fizzie> ... immediately reduced to 70 code units, instead of 160."
22:49:16 <fizzie> Maybe no escaping, then.
22:49:26 <Vorpal> so it goes like this on the screen: :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):)?
22:49:33 <Vorpal> (with that underline yes)
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22:50:22 <fizzie> Oh, yes, there's this thing.
22:50:45 <fizzie> "Since release 8 of the GSM 23.038 standard, additional characters sets can be accessed through the use of a National Language Shift Table.
22:50:48 <fizzie> These tables allow the use of different character sets according to the language the text is going to be written. The choice of table for a given message is selected in the User Data Header section of an SMS message and can be specified for the whole text (a Locking shift table) or a single character (Single shift table).
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm just amused it supports concatenated smilies!
22:50:54 <fizzie> Using a shift table, a message can still use 7-bit encoding for the characters, but a different set can be chosen to correctly show accented and language specific characters. This allows up to 155 characters, encoded in 136 octets (140 octets, minus the 4-octets of User Data Header required to indicate the use of a shift table and the language code)."
22:51:16 <fizzie> I think that's what many phones do if you stick in some special-but-not-too-special character.
22:51:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, like åäö or such?
22:52:15 <pikhq> fizzie: What a "pleasant" hack to deal with how phone companies seem to feel that half a floppy disk per month is a reasonable allocation.
22:52:22 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, what? It makes perfect sense. You just need to hit the key on the keypad once per char
22:52:36 <Lumpio-> I just never liked it .__.
22:52:43 <Lumpio-> So I learned to type decently fast on the keypad
22:52:52 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, next you will say you hate swype on smartphones?
22:52:54 <Lumpio-> I think I might've averaged at least over 150cpm
22:53:04 <Lumpio-> Vorpal: I hate typing on touchscreens for one.
22:54:27 <Vorpal> so I was searching the wikipedia page about twitter for "140" to find the reason for that specific limit. Amusingly I hit that they had US$ 140 million revenue and over 140 million users instead
22:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually åäö are part of the default 7-bit set. (It's not ASCII.) My counter jumps from 160 to 69 if I type a ‰, indicating UCS-2. Haven't found an in-between character yet. (It counts number of characters until the next message.)
22:56:11 <kmc> iirc it comes from the GSM SMS limit of 160 (7-bit) characters minus space for a username
22:56:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey "The messages were initially set to a 140 character limit for the compatibility with SMS messaging" according to wikipedia about twitter
22:56:21 <Vorpal> so yes they are related!
22:56:38 <fizzie> Maybe; it's not the same limit, though.
22:56:47 <kmc> yeah twitter was originally based on the idea of sending/receiving status updates by SMS
22:56:50 <pikhq> The Twitter limit is 140 UTF-8-encoded integers.
22:57:18 <fizzie> There's also some random uppercase Greek in the 7-bit GSM.
22:58:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean Cyrillic letters or ancient Greek letters?
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23:00:16 <fizzie> I mean Γ, Λ, Ω, Π, Ψ, Σ and few others. (Got tired copy-pasting from a table with this phone.)
23:02:03 <fizzie> SMS is weird, anyway. There's that "flash SMS" that used to show up in phones as an alert without "opening" the message. Optionally blinking. Technically a "class 0" message. No idea if that still works.
23:02:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you talking about?
23:02:38 <fizzie> It could be used for pranking since it looked like an "official" message, not just something anyone could send.
23:02:47 <Vorpal> how would you send one?
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23:03:30 <fizzie> By fiddlery. At least computers with a GSM card could send them. IIRC some phones too, if you did the right magic.
23:03:37 <fizzie> http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/alert.html has some details.
23:03:53 <Vorpal> aww, not easy to do then I guess
23:04:34 <fizzie> http://www.ehow.com/how_5202567_send-flash-sms.html
23:04:48 <kmc> pikhq: and it's the UCS version of UTF-8 at that, so you can encode codepoints outside the Unicode range
23:05:33 <fizzie> (I have no idea if that flash SMS buggery still works in today's phones.)
23:05:50 <Vorpal> "Type "0001" followed by the beginning of your text message. This is considered a "Class 0" message by most cell phones." <-- that are 4 bytes of letters?
23:06:04 <zzo38> What is a "Class 0" message?
23:06:37 <Vorpal> testing it to my own phone, not working as that ehow suggested it
23:06:52 <pikhq> kmc: That's what I was meaning to imply. :)
23:07:15 <Vorpal> <kmc> pikhq: and it's the UCS version of UTF-8 at that, so you can encode codepoints outside the Unicode range <-- what, really?
23:07:19 <kmc> Vorpal: modern greek also uses those letters...
23:07:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I thought they used Cyrillic?
23:07:37 <Vorpal> rather than µ and so on
23:07:53 <kmc> look it up =D
23:08:16 <kmc> it's pretty close to the ancient greek alphabet, fewer letters and diacritics aiui
23:08:46 <kmc> as i understand it
23:08:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would certainly think it should be a single U+0001 character, but the eHow makes it sound strange. Who knows. The SMS wiki-article mentions such a thing exists, but doesn't have any details.
23:09:02 <kmc> cyrillic alphabet is based on greek and looks a lot like greek too
23:09:12 <kmc> probably the eHow article is just wrong
23:10:06 <kmc> greek was written in boustrophedon order for a while!
23:10:12 <zzo38> The ASCII control code 0x01 is the "start of heading" code.
23:12:38 <kmc> left to right and right to left on alternating lines
23:12:46 <kmc> back and forth like an ox plowing a field
23:12:54 <elliott> kmc: have you ever seen an ox plow a field
23:13:20 <Vorpal> kmc, well it makes it easy to handle very long lines in a text without losing your position!
23:13:21 <kmc> must be strong like bull and smart like tractor
23:13:27 <Vorpal> but tricky to read still
23:13:39 <fizzie> Anyway, according to the http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/alert.html table the main thing is to have the correct first ("TP-DCS") byte, which you obviously can't type in, and the U+0001 just makes for the blinking. So if the eHow ever worked, it must've relied on phones recognizing the 0001 and doing the magic.
23:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, does it count if I saw it on a documentary?
23:17:54 <fizzie> http://mobiletidings.com/2009/02/12/sending-a-flash-sms-message/ (with a phone plugged to a computer in some way you can speak AT commands to it) sounds far more likely to work, assuming operators don't block/change the message class, and modern phones still do the UI difference.
23:18:29 <fizzie> (The example is not in UCS-2 mode though.)
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23:25:20 <zzo38> What values are the IFC and IFR fields supposed to hold in Impulse Tracker instruments? I can find nothing to say what value they should be set to and what they mean
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23:42:30 <fizzie> zzo38: Based on the few hints I've seen, I think they take a value 0..127, and then the most significant bit is set if the filter is enabled. So they can be 0..127 with no effect, and then 128..255 means the filter is on, i.e. enabled for a channel when the instrument is playing. And http://schismtracker.org/wiki/Resonant%20Filters kind-of documents how the 0..127 values get turned into filter ...
23:44:19 <fizzie> Well, that and/or the previous link.
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23:45:05 <fizzie> They're not very clear. But the modplug code is using the MSB as a flag whether to enable the filter.
23:45:56 <fizzie> (Some claim modplug gets the actual filtering wrong, so that's probably not useful to look at, but I think they would get the part about IFC/IFR right.)
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23:54:01 <fizzie> In the comments of the code of that schismtracker.org link, I believe "i" is 256*(IFC & 0x7f), and "d" (not same as the 'd' in the after-code text) is QualityFactorTable[IFR & 0x7f], but the earlier link (where that value is called 'p') gives an explicit formula instead of using the table: "p = 10^((-resonance*24.0)/(128.0f*20.0f))".
23:54:23 <fizzie> Where 'resonance' in that formula would again be IFR&0x7f.
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23:55:07 <fizzie> I haven't checked if it matches the table, except that it does when resonance == 0, and p == 1.0.
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23:58:11 <fizzie> It seems quite reasonable; the value 0.1 is (eyeball-measuring) about 20/24ths through the table, where it should be.