00:01:25 <elliott___> probably Vorpal disables ctcp for "security reasons"
00:01:28 * oerjan is too tired to be fun
00:02:02 <Vorpal> elliott___, I don't think so
00:02:03 <oerjan> i slept long today, after not getting much for 2-3 days
00:02:21 <oerjan> it's about time for lunch >:P
00:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott___, I did get CTCP spammed at some point though and just put an ignore on all CTCPs that weren't CTCP ACTION
00:03:19 <oerjan> he is _really_ bored, isn't he
00:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott___, isn't that a monster from Skyrim? Spriggan I mean
00:05:55 <Vorpal> btw did you get around to playing Bastion yet?
00:06:22 <elliott___> Vorpal: spriggans are from faery law, so quite possibly
00:06:31 <elliott___> spriggan arcane marksman (SpAM) is a possible character combination in crawl
00:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott___, you beat me to it, I was going to make a joke about that being a rather uncommon law
00:09:54 <elliott___> copumpkin: has anything interesting happened in haskell recently
00:10:07 <copumpkin> there's the whole class-prelude debacle
00:12:16 <elliott___> yes it is quite surreal when the head of one of the largest haskell projects decides to make a passive-aggressive blog post in response to reddit criticism
00:12:45 <elliott___> the yesod folks sure do have a weird track record of communication... not that /r/haskell is the most reasoned place either
00:12:51 <elliott___> Vorpal: http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/07/announcing-baseless-assertion
00:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott___, That is on the borderline on not being passive
00:14:24 <oerjan> elliott___: well lambda-case was added, but of course you know that so i assume you don't think that's interesting
00:14:49 <elliott___> oerjan: i think the added syntax is ugly
00:14:55 <oerjan> (and the if | which i tried to comment about but which is still sitting at 0)
00:15:13 <elliott___> frankly I would have preferred for monadic case to be added
00:15:28 <elliott___> (did anyone propose that in a venue that the simons read?)
00:15:31 <oerjan> at least it works, i think if | breaks intuition horribly when nested
00:15:35 <elliott___> (i mean, monadic case obviously, but as an alternative)
00:15:49 <oerjan> elliott___: yes, but that means you cannot use it for continuation passing style
00:15:54 <elliott___> that's what i'd do if i was on the committee at least
00:16:11 <elliott___> (remember ask is typeclassed to work with functions)
00:16:15 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) r. (MonadReader r m) => m r
00:16:19 <oerjan> no, i mean continuation passing when you want it _non-monadic_
00:16:30 <elliott___> oerjan: the monad is the _function_ monad.
00:16:41 <elliott___> (case <- ask of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456) :: Maybe () -> Integer
00:16:53 <elliott___> case <- m of y === do { tmp <- m; case tmp of y }
00:17:00 <elliott___> now imagine the latter is in the function monad.
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00:17:36 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case ask of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456 }
00:17:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (MonadReader r Maybe)
00:17:37 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `ask' at <interactive>:1:20-22
00:17:37 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (MonadReader r Maybe)
00:17:42 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456 }
00:17:44 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b t. (MonadReader (Maybe t) m, Num (m b)) => m b
00:18:02 <elliott___> case <- ask of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> 456
00:18:17 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 }
00:18:19 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b t. (MonadReader (Maybe t) m, Num b) => m b
00:18:19 <oerjan> elliott___: oh. well i guess that works.
00:18:25 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 } :: Maybe () -> Integer
00:18:34 <elliott___> so case <- ask of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 }
00:18:49 <elliott___> I bet copumpkin likes my solution!!!!!!!!
00:19:09 <oerjan> elliott___: but now what if you want to do continuation passing style _in_ a monad?
00:19:27 <elliott___> oerjan: you just put return $ after every -> and it translates perfectly.
00:19:32 <elliott___> oerjan: in fact that is exactly an fmap
00:19:39 <elliott___> so if we had fancy fmap syntax, then it could be extended too.
00:20:00 <elliott___> say (case <$> ask of Nothing -> 1234; Just _ -> return 456)
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00:20:36 <elliott___> <Vorpal> elliott___, That is on the borderline on not being passive
00:20:42 <kmc> looks like snoyman decided to write a blog post complaining about the haskell community
00:20:44 <elliott___> Vorpal: well i think some people missed that it was directed to them first time around.
00:20:46 <kmc> i have one of those but i didn't post it ;P
00:21:01 <elliott___> kmc: in this case snoyman is in the wrong really
00:21:23 <elliott___> it is like the kind of thing i would expect someone five chapters into lyah to come up with
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00:22:41 <elliott___> kmc: when are typeclasses introduced in lyah
00:22:45 <elliott___> maybe i should ... check it out myself
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00:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott___, what is lyah?
00:23:50 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
00:24:09 <kmc> learn you a hlaghulagahalguhgaglhghughl
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00:26:26 <zzo38> I did not write my D&D character backstory yet so I will do that and ask the other player to write backstory for her character too.
00:26:38 <zzo38> elliott___: I don't think so.
00:26:42 <coppro> elliott___: you under score
00:26:59 <oerjan> zzo38 is here to teach you not to miss nsqx.
00:27:22 <elliott___> zzo38 is the second-best member of the channel
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00:33:53 <elliott___> oerjan: the language list is unalphabetised
00:34:19 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:35:18 <oerjan> ...i don't see any recent problems
00:36:12 <elliott___> i thought http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&curid=960&diff=33182&oldid=33170 was out of order.
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00:39:26 <elliott___> maybe i should work on 41qys-crawl rather than sitting around on irc
00:41:16 <elliott___> kmc: tell me about a self-delimiting bignum-encoding scheme that is space-efficient and efficient to decode on modern nardware
00:43:13 <zzo38> Why does the NES/Famicom lack decimal mode?
00:44:08 <coppro> because decimal is inferior
00:44:18 <coppro> elliott___: define self-delimiting
00:44:52 <DHeadshot> But it's based on a version of the 6502! That had a BCD mode didn't it?
00:45:16 <coppro> elliott___: do you mean that each one encodes its own length somehow?
00:45:22 <zzo38> DHeadshot: Yes that does have BCD mode
00:45:48 <elliott___> coppro: for instance a simple such scheme would be: first bit one means there's more, first bit zero means last byte
00:46:43 <coppro> there go all my cool ideas :(
00:46:52 <coppro> i had the coolest idea
00:46:58 <coppro> where each bit was 1 if the next bit was in the number
00:47:04 <coppro> or 0 if the number was over
00:47:21 <coppro> you've ruined my dreams
00:47:34 <elliott___> that's more boring than what I was imagining
00:47:49 <coppro> elliott___: does it need to have efficient operations or something like that?
00:47:53 <coppro> also what are we decoding to?
00:48:12 <coppro> also how are we defining efficient? I'm a computer scientist, by my definition it would be pretty damn hard to fail
00:48:20 <elliott___> decoding to... something. an array of machine integers? by efficient I mean "hardware tricks"
00:48:33 <elliott___> i asked kmc because he is a bit-twiddly kind of guy
00:48:45 <elliott___> i realised i don't actually need this seconds after asking btw so it remains only for curiosity
00:49:24 <coppro> I have a funner puzzle
00:50:07 <coppro> trying to remember the next bit ;)
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00:51:01 <Vorpal> <elliott___> kmc: tell me about a self-delimiting bignum-encoding scheme that is space-efficient and efficient to decode on modern nardware <-- would it kill you to simply use libgmp?
00:51:12 <Vorpal> oh wait, that API is terrible
00:51:13 <elliott___> Vorpal: serialising bignum structures to file
00:51:34 <Vorpal> oh it it without "lib"?
00:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott___, with self-delimiting you mean there can't be a count of bytes first or such?
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00:52:34 <elliott____> (obviously, since that wouldn't be bignum!)
00:52:41 <coppro> for (int j = 0; j < i; j=(j+i)&~i) { /* do stuff */ }
00:52:47 <coppro> what am I iterating over?
00:52:57 <Vorpal> elliott____, oh well but you could encode the length of that as a another, different type of bignum :P
00:53:02 <oerjan> well the count of bytes just needs to itself have variable length
00:53:22 <Vorpal> elliott____, I would suggest using something like the most significant bit of each 128 bit group or such to indicate if it was the last one
00:54:04 <elliott____> if the number is 64 bits it takes 128 bits to encode it
00:54:08 <elliott____> but 64 bits is a reasonable range for a number
00:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott____, well, you are not going to get more than 64 bits handled efficiently on a 64-bit machine
00:54:44 <oerjan> my suggestion is: first byte 0-127 means that the actual 0-127 payload bytes follow
00:55:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, and then what?
00:55:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you can repeat such blocks?
00:55:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway why 0-127 rather than 0-255?
00:56:24 <Vorpal> yes but why not do that unsigned...
00:56:33 <Vorpal> hm and you don't waste space by an extra null marker unless you have exactly 127 (or 255) bytes in the block
00:56:37 <oerjan> first byte 128-255 means that the next 0-127 bytes are a length describing block in the same way (hm 0-1 is useless here, needs some tweaking)
00:56:44 <Vorpal> yeah that sounds reasonable
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00:57:54 <oerjan> basically, the first length describing block is 1 byte: if a length describing block has most significant bit 0, it's the length of the payload, otherwise its remaining bits are the length of the _next_ length describing block
00:58:16 <elliott____> oerjan: the numbers are not quite likely to get that big :P
00:58:46 <oerjan> elliott____: i was assuming since you said you couldn't simply have an initial length, that you wanted this to be in principle unbounded
00:59:50 <oerjan> so for a number fitting in realistic memory, there won't be more than 2 length describing blocks
01:00:30 <oerjan> you are free to adjust the chunking and cutoffs to make it more efficient, but that's details
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01:30:06 <HackEgo> 197) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
01:30:10 <HackEgo> 361) <pikhq_> And if they wanted to go for "true" security, they'd just do "Warning: your computer has not been turned into a plasma. This may cause some of your personal data to be stolen. Click here to turn your computer into a ball of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace."
01:30:20 <HackEgo> 136) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
01:30:20 <HackEgo> 419) <oklofok> mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once <oklofok> and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself <oklofok> not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best
01:30:22 <HackEgo> 803) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
01:31:14 <soundnfury> elliott____: what do you get, then, if not a version response? Still an empty string?
01:33:18 <soundnfury> so there was some other conversation going on as well that I missed
01:34:20 <soundnfury> in other news, I've finally got custom widgets working in my GUI toolkit
01:34:41 <soundnfury> thanks to the magic of callback function pointers
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02:18:18 <zzo38> What Dungeons&Dragons spell or feat did you want to invent?
02:49:31 <Sgeo_> According to Liberal Crime Squad, I hold some Conserative viewpoints
02:49:40 <Sgeo_> (Looking through the source)
02:51:42 <coppro> Sgeo_: you can't capitalize those words
02:52:00 <coppro> you get to capitalize democrat and republican instead
02:52:10 <coppro> (elliott can also capitalize democrat)
02:52:14 <coppro> I can capitalize Democratic though
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02:52:39 <coppro> elliott____: may I suggest a solid s/_//g
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02:57:14 <Sgeo_> cygwin is so slow :(
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03:15:45 <zzo38> coppro: I mean one that you do want to invent, not the ones that already exists.
03:15:57 <coppro> How would I know what ones I want to invent?
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03:32:47 <zzo38> coppro: I thought maybe you would know, but if you do not know that is OK too. I invented some spells/feats such as "Object Mirroring" spell and "Favored Mercy" feat.
03:42:24 <coppro> zzo38: if I knew what they were, I would have invented them already
03:45:12 <zzo38> OK. Did you invented any?
03:46:31 * oerjan invents Anvil Fall, the opposite of Feather Fall. not recommended for fragile characters.
03:46:55 <oerjan> someone probably already did, i guess.
03:47:41 <Sgeo_> From http://lcsgame.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lcsgame/trunk/dev/lawrefrence.cpp?revision=589&view=markup Stalinist looks like a possible outcome, but how?
03:48:15 <oerjan> seems someone used the name at least http://www.thievesguild.cc/spells/index.php?Number=808
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03:57:11 <zzo38> oerjan: OK invent Anvil Fall, more specificly.
03:58:33 <oerjan> zzo38: someone else already did in that link i gave
03:58:44 <oerjan> (not sure if it was d&d specifically)
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03:59:10 <zzo38> No, invent it the way you invent it, I mean.
03:59:47 <oerjan> i don't know enough d&d to give specifics.
04:03:46 <zzo38> Do you like my spell?
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04:21:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you give the specifics for Icosahedral RPG?
04:22:07 <zzo38> I wanted to eliminate the d10 from Icosahedral RPG since it is not a Platonic solid, although I decided against it since d10 would be need for too many purposes.
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04:22:42 <zzo38> (Instead, I simply mentioned in the rules that d10 is not a Platonic solid.)
04:24:35 <coppro> a d10 isn't that necessary
04:24:48 <coppro> a d20 can randomly select from 10 outcomes fairly
04:25:03 <zzo38> Yes it can, but d10 is better to make percentage rolls.
04:27:26 <elliott_____> oerjan: i really think you ought to give the specifics for icosahedral rpg
04:28:09 * oerjan murders elliott_____. in his sleep.
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04:29:57 <zzo38> From the perspective of the game yes it is magic but from outside of the game we still need to write it down.
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04:58:07 <zzo38> I have now recorded the last played session of my Dungeons&Dragons game.
04:59:21 <zzo38> Some things will not be revealed in this chapter... you have to wait... such as the reason why Kjugobe has purchased an afro wig
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05:25:55 <coppro> there is a US comedy called 30 Rock which revolves around a TV production studio producing a TV show; it gets kind of meta sometimes. Naturally, there was Rule 34 of it. When they wanted to have an episode where the crew was Rule 34ing their show (the show in the show, that is), they hired the real porn actors.
05:27:35 <oerjan> wait, the real porn actors or the porn actors in the show
05:31:38 <coppro> the real show hired the real porn actors who did porn of the real show to play fake porn actors making fake porn of the fake show
05:33:16 <olsner> so they were already making porn of the real show before they came up with the idea then?
05:34:08 * oerjan gets carried away in a nice white jacket
05:38:08 <oerjan> when the heck _is_ girl genius supposed to update anyway
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05:40:33 <oerjan> once upon a time you could reliably expect it at shortly after 4 UTC
05:47:08 <coppro> you can fill in the rest
05:47:33 <oerjan> at least it's not lupus
05:50:07 <pikhq_> zzo38: Bah, screw restricting yourself to Platonic solids.
05:50:39 <pikhq_> zzo38: With cylindrical dice you can have an n-sided die, where n >= 1.
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06:11:12 <zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?
06:13:03 <zzo38> To quote someone "No, I don't believe in Astrology. I just carry my sign proudly, if for no other reason than to brag about its characteristics. (most of which don't actually apply to me) And yeah, I think psychology is worse."
06:17:19 <zzo38> GET OUT OF MY CHAIR-Picard
06:48:55 <coppro> `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?
06:51:42 <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
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06:52:40 <coppro> `addquote < zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
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06:52:45 <HackEgo> 849) < zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
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06:54:15 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
06:54:22 <oerjan> `run sed -i '849s/< /</' quotes
06:54:33 <HackEgo> 849) <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
07:08:07 <itidus21> we know that extra-terrestrial bodies are made of gases, solids, liquids etc
07:08:57 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, yes; what else would you expect them to be made of, anyways?
07:11:54 <itidus21> we can make accurate predictions about their distribution and motion, which is also progress
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07:20:07 -!- epicmonkey has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bananas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:22:01 <oerjan> DON'T BELIEVE THE TOPIC IT'S ALL MONKEY PROPAGANDA
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07:51:11 <olsner> <zzo38> GET OUT OF MY CHAIR-Picard <-- you know, in the first episode of TNG, Picard invites Wesley to sit in his chair
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07:54:21 <oerjan> olsner: application of godwin's law
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07:55:41 <olsner> (of course, just before that there's this "a CHILD!? on MY BRIDGE?" moment followed by "oh, he's your [beverly's] son? go on then")
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08:18:01 <olsner> oerjan: oh, now I understand what you were answering
08:18:03 <olsner> ... why the double n though, shouldn't that be spelled godwining?
08:18:40 <olsner> I was having trouble connecting godwin's law with wesley sitting in picard's chair
08:20:28 <oerjan> olsner: english doubles consonants when necessary to prevent the pronunciation rules from changing the vowels. e.g. -in is pronounced with a short i, while -ining starts with a long one, so you need -inning to keep it short.
08:21:01 <oerjan> except when they don't, but that's the rule i try to follow.
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08:22:50 <olsner> somewhat surprising rule given that english in general doesn't seem to care about maintaining any sort of correspondence between spelling and pronunciation
08:23:44 <coppro> doubled letters are also pronounced differently
08:23:54 <coppro> if you are speaking slowly
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08:23:59 <coppro> if you're going quickly they blur
08:25:13 <oerjan> that bot is horribly slow sometimes
08:25:24 <olsner> how about using a diaeresis? godwinïng
08:25:30 <HackEgo> 2012-04-27.txt:07:48:12: <shubshub> C:
08:25:52 <oerjan> shubshub: INDEED YOU HAVE
08:26:08 <shubshub> Im thinking of my million dollar idea
08:26:14 <oerjan> olsner: i don't think the english _do_ that.
08:26:26 <shubshub> Something to do with programming
08:26:50 <shubshub> A Game Which Teaches Programming
08:27:39 <olsner> oerjan: no, but they could ... I think in swedish you can use : for that and say something like Godwin:ing (except we wouldn't -ing, we'd -otherstuff)
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08:30:45 <olsner> wikipedia says we use the colon for conjugating numbers, letters and abbreviations (and/or acronyms)
08:31:18 <oerjan> you swedes are so strange >:)
08:32:09 <oerjan> although i do recall seeing that
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08:34:24 <olsner> the same wikipedia page implies that we don't use the colon for names or for acronyms that are not spelled out
08:36:31 <olsner> "Kanalen avstängd på grund av godwinering"
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08:37:31 <Vorpal> olsner, "godwinering"?
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08:37:50 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't know what that is either
08:37:55 <olsner> that or the God wine ring
08:37:57 <Vorpal> god winning over the heathens?
08:38:18 <itidus21> i wonder how long it will be before i have an original idea
08:38:27 <Vorpal> olsner, does it make any sense to you?
08:38:28 <olsner> itidus21: you might never have an original idea
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08:39:23 <olsner> Vorpal: does it make more sense if I write it godwin:ering?
08:39:46 <Vorpal> I don't even know what "godwin" is
08:40:02 <olsner> ah, I think that's the key deficiency
08:40:08 <Vorpal> olsner, is it a real word?
08:41:07 <Vorpal> oh right, the internet discussion nazi law
08:41:20 <olsner> though it could be a word meaning "god's victory", as in win < epic win < GODWIN
08:41:44 <Vorpal> that is what I thought first
08:42:06 <olsner> well, the topic explicitly says that's NOT what it means
08:42:16 <Vorpal> oh the topic... *reads*
08:42:26 <olsner> oh the face... *palms*
08:43:01 <Vorpal> olsner, why were you translating it to Swedish
08:43:45 <olsner> iirc, it was the continuation of a discussion about english orthography
08:43:48 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway when I first saw you mention it I thought "hm, did he see that on a sign next to a channel in the city he lives in?" XD
08:44:06 <Vorpal> like, channel with water in it
08:44:30 <Vorpal> hm. "Göta kanal avstängd på grund av godwinering"
08:44:36 <oerjan> En mann, en plan, en kanal, Panama!
08:44:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, mann with two n? What?
08:45:12 <Vorpal> is that how you guys spell it?
08:45:51 <olsner> there's something special with doubled consonants and ends of words in swedish
08:45:57 <oerjan> except i was aiming for swedish there, and being amused that there was no difference :(
08:47:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that a quote from somewhere?
08:47:14 <olsner> it would be useful for swedish to spell it mann, to differentiate it from man meaning mane
08:47:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: A man, a plan, a canal, Panama!
08:47:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that a quote from somewhere?
08:48:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw, do you write hade or hadde or something else for "had" in Norwegian?
08:48:14 <itidus21> isle of mann, where men are men
08:48:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, why do you write it like it sounds it should be written!
08:49:30 <olsner> swedish is just a horrible language, we should stop using it :)
08:49:43 <itidus21> olsner: well i don't think there are many non-deterministic bitmaps in practice
08:49:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: well as a consolation, we write the _pronoun_ as "man" for some reason.
08:50:15 <itidus21> having said this, i want to hear more about swedish
08:50:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, and what about mane? Do you write it as "man"?
08:51:19 <olsner> itidus21: now that's an original idea right there, I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to hear more about swedish before
08:51:21 <Vorpal> well I have to leave now, guests.
08:51:36 <itidus21> well i lied, i just don't want to break the topic
08:51:49 <olsner> itidus21: ah, that makes more sense
08:51:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: now i notice it's "katt" in swedish as well, so it's not all words...
08:52:37 <olsner> maybe only m and n do it
08:52:51 <oerjan> ...in norwegian m does, but not n
08:53:02 <itidus21> nondeterministic bitmaps man... i bet its all been done 40 years ago :-s
08:53:37 <itidus21> maybe shaders have started doing things like that
08:55:55 <olsner> could be historic too, you wouldn't uproot the established spellings of all those common words just because you've figured out a neat system using double consonants to indicate that the previous vowel is pronounced differently
08:57:43 <oerjan> hm a lot of words that end in -nn in norwegian don't end in either of just -n or -nn in swedish. like no:vann = sv:vatten
08:58:33 <olsner> both a and e are short though, so maybe it should be vattenn
08:58:56 <itidus21> basically, instead of saying this pixel is red, i'm saying this pixel is a random selection of {lightred,red,darkred}
08:59:01 <oerjan> the e isn't stressed though
09:00:06 <oerjan> which explains why some common words don't have double consonants - they're almost never stressed
09:00:30 <itidus21> so that, with iterated renderings, the non-deterministic bitmap is animated
09:01:48 <itidus21> this would end up looking really cool
09:01:49 <olsner> I think the e has been moving out entirely for some time, and many dialects say something like vattn or vatt'n
09:02:19 <olsner> and from there, you're just one step away from vann
09:02:46 <oerjan> swedish has kan/vill, while norwegian has kan/vil
09:03:01 <oerjan> it's vatn in nynorsk, anyway
09:03:12 <olsner> sv:son has a long o btw
09:03:48 <olsner> so it's definitely not sonn misspelled, unless the current pronounciation comes from mispronouncing sonn-spelled-son
09:04:26 <oerjan> it's son in nynorsk too :P
09:06:39 <olsner> that word seems to be so common it has had all possible spellings
09:06:48 <olsner> including soon and sånn
09:08:20 <itidus21> according to google, most people see nondeterministic rendering as a bug..
09:09:12 <olsner> it is a bug for anything that is trying to do deterministic rendering
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09:10:20 <itidus21> hmm apparently i'm reinventing another wheel though
09:12:04 <olsner> what do you mean by nondeterministic bitmap, btw?
09:14:01 <itidus21> well im an uneducated ass so i don't know the correct term
09:14:20 <itidus21> but i merely mean that instead of having 1 colour defined for a pixel
09:14:34 <itidus21> having a set of colours from which 1 is randomly selected
09:16:04 <itidus21> so lets say on a tree, normally the pixel is {green} ... now the pixel is {95% chance of dark green, 5% chance of light green}
09:17:13 <itidus21> so that, whenever you render this tree, approximately 95% of the leaf pixels are dark green
09:17:52 <itidus21> and if you render it in iterations, the leaves will have some kind of animation effect
09:18:00 <olsner> I think generating and displaying noise of various kinds isn't exactly new
09:18:49 <itidus21> but, i thought of doing it in 2d :D
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09:27:27 <itidus21> olsner: i have been thinking about bitmaps more and more. noise seems to be my latest find
09:35:40 <fizzie> For animationy things, you might want to constrain the consecutive frames somehow, since if you just treat them independently like that, you'll get the analog-TV-no-channel "snow" kind of thing (well, except green), and not many of the trees I've seen out there look exactly like that.
09:37:40 <itidus21> hmm..it could well be a really bad idea, the kind that game reviewers ponder what the hell were they thinking
09:39:16 <itidus21> fizzie: the main problem with all this stuff i think is concern over how expensive all this kind of pixel by pixel calculation will get. but surely it can't be that bad
09:39:27 <itidus21> at least if the resolution is kept under control
09:43:20 <itidus21> another option i can consider is random palette swapping
09:45:07 <itidus21> @_@ i might want to constrain the consecutive frames somehow
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09:54:25 <itidus21> one fascinating aspect of noise is that if two people are exploring the same virtual world (not necessarily at the same time), then noise won't prevent them feeling it is the same world
10:01:27 <itidus21> imagine, for instance, comics with noise
10:02:02 <itidus21> the noise being synonyms selected from a thesaurus
10:03:28 <olsner> you should do a textnoiser
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10:36:34 <fizzie> Sounds like Mad Libs, really.
10:36:50 <itidus21> dimmi, dimmi se mai fu fatta cosa alcuna
10:39:19 <itidus21> ce n'est pas une citation da vinci
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10:41:58 <itidus21> i wonder if it is the right word
10:42:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
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11:48:46 <itidus21> about the 4d visualization thing, the trick is to find shortcuts to visualizing.. and the way to find those shortcuts is to have a real motivating objective to visualizing 4d
11:49:09 <itidus21> it's not really enough to do it for it's own sake
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12:43:43 <nooga> my JIT assembler works like a charm
12:44:13 <monqy> what sort of 4d is this
12:44:34 <monqy> the scratch and sniff kind?
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12:46:27 <elliott__> 06:54:22: <oerjan> `run sed -i '849s/< /</' quotes
12:46:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:47:22 <olsner> "A 4GL is defined as a language that supports 12–20 function points per staff month. This correlates with about 16–27 lines of code per function point implemented in a 4GL."
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12:53:59 <olsner> collect 8 spellings of what, encode BF, done
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13:43:03 <kmc> olsner: \rainbow{ESOLANG}
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13:45:45 <fizzie> It had a ting pimeout.
13:47:09 <elliott__> It hapens . once i had a ting pimeout and I had to get my ting removed
14:09:32 <kmc> that's a kinda weak rainbow
14:09:46 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
14:09:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:10:10 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
14:11:21 <fizzie> The second doesn't take inputs.
14:11:27 <fungot> ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(█)S:^):^
14:11:42 <fizzie> But it has a handpicked color order.
14:12:22 <fungot> +3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,]
14:12:52 <fizzie> It's brainfuck, just with a shortcut notation.
14:13:00 <fizzie> That one just cycles 2..9 or so.
14:13:56 <fizzie> Kind of. Technically what happens is that bf input gets compiled into a bytecode where there's just "add X to tape pointer" and "add X to current cell" opcodes.
14:14:13 <fizzie> And ^show then converts back but doesn't bother repeating the character, instead just displays the number.
14:14:58 <fizzie> Come to think of it, it probably doesn't even take the tape-size/cell-size modulo at that point yet.
14:15:02 <nortti> is the number before or after the command to be repeated?
14:15:30 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
14:16:33 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------------------------------------------------
14:16:56 <fizzie> I didn't think it did that.
14:17:31 <fizzie> Doesn't combine those, though. If you put in a series of +s and -s, they get treated as separate things.
14:27:17 <fizzie> I'm in Belgiquë, if you hadn't heard.
14:27:23 <fizzie> Though not for long now.
14:30:12 <fizzie> If I've understood correctly, the French-speaking part says Belgique, while the Dutch-speaking part says België maybe, so I kind of combined them.
14:30:35 <tswett> "america = double continent which is made out of north&south america."
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14:30:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure why exactly they say België when this keyboard doesn't even have an ë.
14:31:53 <olsner> is Gene Ray the timecube guy?
14:32:29 <kmc> fizzie: what about the german-speaking part, you insensitive clod!
14:32:47 <kmc> olsner: yes
14:33:02 <kmc> 'Before Time Cube, Otis E. Ray advocated the sport of marbles. He authored a book titled Mr. Marbles – Marbles for Everyone,[10] and got the city council of St. Petersburg, Florida to proclaim a "Marbles Week" in the 1970s. In 1987, this became a controversial attempt to establish a million dollar marble tournament inside a huge round structure and establish a philosophical "Order of the Sphere."'
14:33:08 <kmc> then he lost his marbles.
14:33:34 <olsner> fizzie: oh, since they speak both german and french, belgium must be switzerland
14:34:08 <fizzie> olsner: Dutch and French.
14:34:16 <fizzie> Admittedly Dutch is kind of poor man's German.
14:34:39 <fizzie> I don't speak it so I don't know. :p
14:34:54 <fizzie> But the locals have described it as being something between German and English.
14:35:02 <fizzie> Geographically that would make sense.
14:35:52 <fizzie> In Luxembourg, though, all the signs were in French and German.
14:36:08 <nooga> that's weird that we don't have a dutch guy here on the channel
14:36:23 <fizzie> (So I guess Luxembourg is Switzerland.)
14:36:40 <nooga> they're known for OCD stuff like building enormous redstone contraptions in minecraft
14:36:59 <olsner> fizzie: indeed, and so is austria
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14:37:37 <olsner> I suspect that every country is every other country, but I haven't run through all the data yet
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14:39:16 <fizzie> This "whtspc" dude, noisy in 2009, seems to have had a .nl host.
14:39:46 <fizzie> And some "labbekak" dude from start of June, this year.
14:40:22 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7RE7DKSvKU
14:40:28 <Taneb> 75, 5, 10, 9, 4, 2
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14:46:20 <elliott__> fizzie: whtspc was the paintfuck guy.
14:48:39 <itidus21> paintfuck is really quite good
14:49:02 <nortti> the 2 dimensional smallfuck?
14:49:21 <itidus21> i've been studying (yeah pig's ass) bitmaps a bit
14:49:43 <itidus21> my biggest regret in life is my inability to study
14:52:10 <Taneb> 100, 2, 1, 7, 9, 3
14:54:23 <Taneb> > (3 * 100) - 2 - 1
14:56:30 <fizzie> Is it good to use more numbers? I don't know anything about this.
14:56:52 <Taneb> You just need to get within 10 of the answer, the closer the better
14:57:39 <fizzie> I wikipedia'd it between those two sets of numbers, if you couldn't tell.
14:58:33 <elliott__> Taneb: There's a nice Haskell program to solve Countdown, you know.
14:59:20 <Taneb> It's a very functionally type problem
15:00:19 <elliott__> It is really more of a logic programming type thing, except the cleanest implementation in Prolog gives an inefficient algorithm.
15:01:08 <Taneb> what-if xkcd has really gone downhill
15:02:39 <elliott__> Taneb: what are you talking about, this one is great
15:02:58 <itidus21> i always used to think the force was unlimited
15:03:20 <itidus21> that if someone really wanted they could move a planet
15:03:40 <Taneb> itidus21, I'm moving the planet as we speak
15:04:08 <nooga> look at the sun, it's moving
15:04:15 <elliott__> it would seem rather against the themes of Star Wars to have Yoda be suddenly stopped by a vehicle that's twice the weight, yes
15:04:18 <Taneb> nooga, ooh, good one
15:04:33 <nooga> Taneb: can you stop moving it for a moment?
15:04:51 <Taneb> nooga, it's got too much momentum now
15:05:56 <itidus21> for me, the important question was 1) why can't the force be used to fly, and 2) why can't the force be used to throw people
15:06:02 <nortti> Taneb: can you slow it down?
15:06:10 <Taneb> Not right now, getting eggs
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15:06:17 <itidus21> i think george lucas has his reasons
15:09:04 <itidus21> ... planet was arbitrary, but in other words, i wasn't aware of any actual constraints on the force.. i guess they were implied
15:11:25 <fizzie> itidus21: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis#Levitation and the 'Force Flight' thing below.
15:14:16 <nooga> i think i will play minecraft
15:20:58 <itidus21> awesome http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_kick
15:21:09 <itidus21> thats almost too good to be true
15:24:30 <fizzie> Just a hunch, but I don't think everything in Star Wars actually is true.
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15:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, wookiepedia has an article on breasts which gives a list of appearances
15:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover> memory alpha also has one, which is in the past tense because presumably breasts stopped existing at some point in the st canon
15:30:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, did you never watch DS9?
15:31:12 <elliott__> memory alpha is set in the future where everything is destroyed
15:31:18 <elliott__> like you are actually required to write about everything in past tense
15:31:31 <elliott__> after all ceases to exist, the only thing left is to chronicle what was
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15:32:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the only logical conclusion is that you're searching for breasts on wikis describing sci-fi series
15:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately I don't actually remember how I got there.
15:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=breast&namespace= has several plausible starting points.
15:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess as of Memory Alpha's writing bubbles still exist?
15:38:08 <elliott__> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_bubble also warp bubbles
15:39:10 <elliott__> "When milk is heated, the amino acid in the lactose it contains is activated, acting as a natural sedative, helping one sleep."
15:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Early_production_history
15:40:39 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:41:42 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: how weird is it that people born in the 19th century acted in Star Trek?
15:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well when you consider that it first aired in the 60s... not very?
15:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What is weird that shots of Earth from space in TOS look really crappy and faked because nobody had any idea what the Earth looked like from space.
15:43:33 <nortti> what do they look like? any pictures?
15:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't be arsed to find them, but it's just a geographical globe in the backdrop.
15:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Really flat colours, not much shading, no clouds at all.
15:44:53 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: OK but it means there was someone old enough to have read a novel by Verne when it came out who /acted in Star Trek/.
15:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW the first non-birth event in that timeline I can find is in '44.
16:13:19 <Vorpal> <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: OK but it means there was someone old enough to have read a novel by Verne when it came out who /acted in Star Trek/. <-- only just though
16:14:26 <elliott__> Vorpal: not really, there's a decade or so window
16:14:50 <Vorpal> oh right, some books were published post-humus
16:15:01 <Vorpal> (wait I typoed that didn't I?)
16:15:23 <Vorpal> and it looks like he wrote books until his very death
16:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's post-humus if it's published after you're on the wrong side of it.
16:15:59 <Vorpal> what is the word I'm looking for then
16:17:18 <Vorpal> so the last book seems to have been published in 1909? There is one more that wikipedia's bibliography doesn't even list a date for hm
16:19:10 <Vorpal> which year was the first Star Trek episode recorded in?
16:20:05 <Vorpal> okay, 1909 for the last one. (He died in 1905 though), so that means you have to be maybe 8 or 9 years old or so to read it at that point (somewhat optimistic)? So lets say someone born in 1900 then. So about 66 years old then?
16:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott__, sure there is a window, wouldn't say that window was as large as a decade though
16:21:21 <elliott__> 1882 birthdate, go look up jules verne's bibliography and consider ages of literacy
16:21:25 <Vorpal> I don't have the retirement statistics for actors on the top of my head though
16:21:41 <elliott__> and we are assuming pre-death books here
16:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I know in Sweden you don't learn to read until your mid 20s but in America they may learn it as early as 15,
16:21:53 <elliott__> Vorpal: um, that timeline lists the birthdate of an actor.
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16:22:11 <elliott__> there's a few others from the 1800s too
16:22:37 <elliott__> did you know that old actors sometimes play old people
16:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott__, well of course, but it is just as common to use makeup to add a decade or so when needed from what I understand
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16:33:09 <ais523> haha, Windows Server 2013 uses Metro?
16:33:55 <ais523> I guess that's not much weirder than using a desktop…
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16:43:38 <Taneb> Why does a server OS need Metro?
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16:50:14 <olsner> for the commute to The Cloud?
16:54:53 <itidus21> Taneb: it's a bit like how you need 2 copies of the pokemon game to collect em all
16:55:09 <Taneb> itidus21, but you can't get Celebi!
16:55:29 <itidus21> ie. artificially difficult requirements
16:56:53 <itidus21> it sounds like i misinterpreted this all
17:02:31 <zzo38> Do you like the UnOlympics?
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17:09:26 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/EPhJ
17:11:23 <itidus21> somehow i imagined beer would be involved
17:18:32 <Vorpal> itidus21, well it does list "beer pong" whatever that is
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17:24:02 <zzo38> I don't know what that means either.
17:24:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, you didn't compose the list?
17:26:45 <zzo38> I did write the list but I did not write all the entries that are part of the list.
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17:40:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Beer pong is a drinking game involving ping pong balls and cups of beer.
17:42:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: You bounce a ping pong ball across a table, attempting to make it land in one of the cups on the opponent's side; if you do, the opponent will have to drink that. Or something much like that, anyway. Possibly teams and many cups and other complications, but that's the basic idea.
18:15:20 <fizzie> To be perfectly honest, I even googled that bit.
18:22:14 <fizzie> I was trying to think of something to the tune of "and his trusty sidekick Shum Ting", but couldn't figure out any expression that'd inherently go with "for shame".
18:22:54 <itidus21> Tonight's main event at the Coliseum: Foshame Versus The Tiger
18:23:44 <fizzie> Foshame with an athame.
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18:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm thinking the next line is "with sticks and spades and hand grenades" but I may be remembering some different lyrics from my days at primary school.
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18:29:04 <Gregor> You're not remembering the next line because it's just whistling X_X
18:29:32 <fizzie> The Google-hit I read has it continue with we dig dig dig dig and so on.
18:29:47 <elliott__> We dig dig dig dig and so on / and then we eat a scone.
18:29:49 <fizzie> Possibly they've omitted the whistling.
18:34:43 <fizzie> Today's annoyance: MATLAB Distributed Computing Server, supposedly the fanciest thing since sliced bread, is apparently impossible to use without having access to the MATLAB GUI desktop, because you can only manage parallel execution configurations using the graphical Configurations Manager.
18:35:21 <Gregor> That was your first mistake.
18:35:29 <fizzie> (Also Atlassian Confluence shows/hides the sidebar whenever the windows key is pressed, so it keeps flipping open and closed whenever I switch workspaces, but that's a minor annoyance.)
18:35:45 <fizzie> I don't really have a choice.
18:37:06 <fizzie> The code I need to run is MATLAB code, and the official word (according to docs, enforced by license-related means) is that all that stuff needs to go through the MDCS, because the MDCS is so fancy, and presents an entirely new kind of interactive workflow.
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18:38:30 <fizzie> I tried to ssh -XY a remotely accessible shell server, and then ssh -XY from there to the cluster frontend, but the desktop wouldn't open. It gets the windows open, writes "Initializing..." in the corner indicator dealie, and then sits there for at least half an hour.
18:39:34 <fizzie> Then I tried to run Xvnc or something on a computer that's geographically near the cluster frontend, in the hopes that I could get the X forwarding to work from there, but our Linux distribution doesn't include (a) a VNC server, or (b) enough -dev packages to compile one.
18:39:52 <HackEgo> Browkling: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:39:56 <fizzie> I suppose that wasn't exactly helpful.
18:40:11 <HackEgo> BROWKLING: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
18:40:35 <HackEgo> BrOwKlInG: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
18:41:06 <fizzie> Phew. I was kind of afraid the wide thing was coming next.
18:41:15 <shachaf> elliott__: Did you ping me?
18:41:41 <fizzie> elliott__: Probably, now that you mention. The official instructions mention -XY, that's why I went with it, but that's probably just stupidity.
18:42:11 <Browkling> fizzie: pls How CAN i see pepoele here
18:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Browkling, you can ask for pictures, but they mightn't give you them.
18:42:56 <elliott__> Browkling: IRC is text-only chat, I'm afraid
18:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor's site has photos, photos of fizzie exist but they need a fair bit of stalking to find.
18:43:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Various others have posted an image or two but you need to crawl the logs.
18:43:55 <elliott__> apparently Phantom_Hoover keeps track of these things
18:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously; I need to know what people look like so I can discern their character flaws from their appearance.
18:45:04 <nortti> photos of me can be found at http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti
18:45:23 <Gregor> I look like this: /)^3^(\
18:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, ah, your character flaw is that you are a young girl.
18:46:02 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: I am a boy
18:46:15 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: also is 14 young?
18:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case your character flaw is a phobia of hairdressers.
18:47:26 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover clearly did not see my hair before its cutting
18:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott__ looks like a young girl too, perhaps you could be friends and talk about ponies and makeup and such?
18:47:51 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, hey.
18:47:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Talking about ponies is for men.
18:48:29 <zzo38> Anyone can talk about ponies if you want, why should your gender matter?
18:49:01 <nortti> I am not interested in ponies
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18:57:37 <Gregor> http://websplat.bitbucket.org/ Because PONIES IN YOUR INTERWEBS THAT'S WHY
18:57:53 <Madoka-Kaname> Is nortti troll enough to weaponize gender ambiguity?
18:58:18 <oklopol> by little girl i meant this guy http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti/DSC_0380.JPG
18:58:41 <oklopol> i may have misparsed the first picture a bit.
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19:00:27 <nortti> oklopol: I am the one with the cat ears
19:01:41 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: how old are you?
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19:07:20 <itidus21> ponies in the lightning, in the lightning
19:09:23 <oklopol> nortti: so i guess you are not in a university then?
19:10:16 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: when did you join the first time?
19:11:21 <nortti> oklopol: did you believe I was in a university?
19:12:19 <itidus21> it makes it all the more painful to be 30 and still be the dumbest in the room
19:12:40 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: why did you say "Nope." ?
19:14:15 <Madoka-Kaname> <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: when did you join the first time?
19:14:47 <nortti> oh. I really haven't seen you talking that much
19:15:56 <oklopol> nortti: somehow i thought you were
19:16:15 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: also you have pretty interesting cloak (~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan)
19:16:59 <oklopol> perhaps because you don't really disclose much about yourself so i make my own assumptions. dunno.
19:17:00 <itidus21> i assumed nortti was just another run-of-the-mill-esolang-phd
19:18:33 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: is cirno-chan reference to touhou?
19:19:29 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname is reference to Puella magi madoka magica I suppose
19:28:21 <fizzie> oklopol, being in a university, automatically assumes everyone else is, too.
19:31:09 <itidus21> but oklopol is unable to shake the problem that there aren't 7 billion roles to play in universities
19:31:34 <fizzie> There's life outside universities? A weird concept.
19:31:52 <oklopol> so today i cited LifeWiki in an academic paper
19:31:59 * itidus21 gives oklopol a big enough shaker
19:33:27 <itidus21> i can't say i'm proud of that last post
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19:34:23 <fizzie> Wasn't it it Archimedes who said that with a big enough shaker, he'd shake the world?
19:35:27 <itidus21> i can't say i'm proud of that last post either
19:36:19 <oklopol> give me a big enough shaker and a place to sit and i will name an ordered field after myself whenever the naturals are cofinal in it
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19:44:08 <itidus21> you can sit here (not gonna recommend actually clicking because its a random place) http://goo.gl/maps/SYuh
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19:50:54 <Sgeo_> Sounds caffinated.
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20:04:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: You bounce a ping pong ball across a table, attempting to make it land in one of the cups on the opponent's side; if you do, the opponent will have to drink that. Or something much like that, anyway. Possibly teams and many cups and other complications, but that's the basic idea. <-- did you speak from personal experience or did you just google it?
20:08:32 <Vorpal> <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: also is 14 young? <-- the "girl" with a white shirt with some green thing on it?
20:09:06 <olsner> Vorpal: the actual game is very close to what fizzie described
20:09:22 <Vorpal> <nortti> I am not interested in ponies <-- riiight, I don't know what http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti/DSC_0368.JPG is though
20:09:29 <olsner> but I'm *sure* there are many variants of this game, the only real goal is to drink beer after all
20:10:12 <Vorpal> <nortti> oklopol: I am the one with the cat ears <-- that is kind of scarier than ponies
20:11:06 <oklopol> he's obviously embracing his cuteness
20:11:35 <oklopol> you should embrace what you have
20:11:57 <olsner> I guess Vorpal is sad that he hasn't found the courage to embrace yet
20:12:33 <itidus21> i know not what this omen may portend
20:12:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know what, I think both nortti and elliott are trolling us and they are really both girls. It is the ultimate troll of the "young girls on the internet are actually old males" stereotype.
20:13:49 <olsner> the old males have left a hole now populated by the young girls on the internet?
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20:14:26 <Vorpal> olsner, possibly. Further studies are needed to ascertain if there are still any older males left on the internet
20:14:46 <Vorpal> olsner, well, apart from oerjan
20:14:48 <Taneb> What kind of language is that!?
20:15:09 <mroman> The one my kind speaks.
20:15:23 <oklopol> mroman: why do you find everything so weird today?
20:15:36 <mroman> This channel attracts weirdness.
20:15:38 <Taneb> Has some clear romance influences
20:15:44 <mroman> But today it's way off limits :)
20:15:54 <Taneb> I just saw the movie Detention
20:15:56 <olsner> mroman: you must be new here :)
20:15:57 <nortti> Vorpal: that picture is one of the people at putkamiitti helping me with putting on those cat ears
20:15:57 <Taneb> It was pretty weird
20:16:17 <oklopol> nortti: do you always wear cat ears?
20:16:18 <Vorpal> nortti, who/what are "putkamiitti"?
20:16:50 <oklopol> Vorpal: ohjelmointiputka, programming jail, is a finnish programming community website place.
20:16:51 <nortti> Vorpal: annual meeting of people on #ohjelmointiputka / ohjelmointiputka.net
20:17:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, "ohjelmointiputka" is a real Finnish word? Wow, you are truly excelling and producing words no one else can pronounce
20:17:38 <oklopol> i was actually somewhat active there at nortti's age. i think.
20:17:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not personal experience, but I've heard about it before.
20:17:56 <mroman> Isn't finnish the language with more cases one can count with his hands?
20:18:02 <nortti> oklopol: at the site or at the irc channel?
20:18:06 <oklopol> oh and right, miitti = meet = meeting
20:18:07 <shachaf> Finnish people have unusually many fingers.
20:18:10 <Taneb> mroman, depends how you count
20:18:22 <Taneb> It's possibly to get at least 1024 on fingers
20:18:37 <oklopol> nortti: at the site, i didn't know about irc back then.
20:18:38 <nortti> literal translation of putkamiitti is jail meeting
20:18:39 <olsner> Vorpal: googling for putkamiitti actually finds the same picture nortti posted, linked from the osdev forums
20:18:55 <oklopol> actually i may have just had a modem connection.
20:19:11 <oklopol> so irc would've been expensive
20:19:54 <Vorpal> oh right, pay per connected minute
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20:20:19 <oklopol> so i guess not *that* active
20:20:30 <fizzie> Finns and fingers: 2011-12-18 00:34:41 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature" -- paraphrasing some Finnish song lyrics.
20:20:42 <fizzie> (Third time I quote that.)
20:20:57 <fizzie> (And it's always as appropriate.)
20:21:38 <fizzie> The hotel interwebs from my St. Petersburg conference trip were done with dialup. So retro.
20:22:01 <Vorpal> hm that was strange, my mobile phone operator sent an SMS warning for thunderstorms in my area, and suggesting I unplug electronics. This happened a few hours ago and I didn't notice the SMS until now. There was never any thunderstorm though (though there were some pretty thunderish clouds.)
20:22:39 <Vorpal> they never sent such SMS before.
20:25:03 <Vorpal> well I presume it was the operator. I just find it strange they started doing that
20:25:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
20:26:37 <zzo38> I think they should allow "call" instructions in LLVM to be marked volatile. As well as supporting a marker that says it is a standard C99 function. Sometimes it perform C99 optimization but it should not do so, so instead make it a metadata or something like that to indicate if it is a standard C99 function or not.
20:27:04 <Vorpal> ... what is a volatile call?
20:27:24 <Vorpal> can't be reordered relative other instructions?
20:27:30 <Vorpal> that is what I would presume it meant
20:27:49 <zzo38> It would mean, cannot be removed or reordered relative to other volatile instructions
20:27:57 <zzo38> Same as volatile means for load/store
20:28:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, what would you use it for though?
20:28:31 <Vorpal> I mean do you have something right now where you absolutely need that feature?
20:28:53 <Vorpal> it is not like we are on the LLVM design committee, we can't do anything about it.
20:28:55 <zzo38> Mostly for assembly language calls, although there can be other uses too
20:30:18 * Sgeo_ is vaguely sad that Adobe Atmosphere has been discontinued
20:31:19 <Sgeo_> Because I used to like exploring worlds made in Adobe Atmosphere
20:31:28 <Sgeo_> ...wow, it was discontinued in 2004
20:31:32 <Sgeo_> I suddenly feel old
20:32:57 <fizzie> There are so many young girls on #esoteric, that's just natural.
20:34:55 <fizzie> At least two from what I've heard.
20:37:43 <zzo38> How many of you wears cat ears?
20:38:33 <nortti> I wear sometimes so that is at least one
20:38:34 <oklopol> Gregor: do you wear cat ears?
20:38:40 <zzo38> I have no cat ears.
20:38:41 <oklopol> aren't those kinda like hats
20:39:24 <fizzie> We've a pair but I'm not sure they fit me well.
20:39:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Taneb uploaded photos of him(?)self?
20:39:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I don't remember seeing a photo of you
20:40:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why do you have a pair?
20:40:17 <olsner> Vorpal: phantom hoovers don't stick on photos
20:40:19 <Vorpal> is that a Finnish "thing"?
20:40:29 <Taneb> I've never had the opportunity to wear cat ears
20:40:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: You never know when a pair might come handy. (Actually they're from Disneyland.)
20:41:33 <ais523> wow, Microsoft made a loss last quarter
20:41:33 <fizzie> Taneb: Have you had Spock ears?
20:42:01 <Taneb> I cannot recall ever having worn false ears, Spock, cat, or otherwise
20:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Owning such a thing would make you a FILTHY ELF SYMPATHISER who must be HOUNDED FROM SOCIETY
20:42:37 <fizzie> There was a cat on a car in a backyard I walked past the other day.
20:42:59 <fizzie> I'd have taken a picture, but the house's occupant just walked out, so it would've felt a bit impolite.
20:43:52 <fizzie> I just heard we actually also have a pair of hobbit ears, and a pair of bunny ears. So we're well stocked in the ears department.
20:45:00 <Vorpal> <ais523> wow, Microsoft made a loss last quarter <-- how large?
20:45:01 <fizzie> Google image search suggests they're kinda sharp-cornery but not quite as pointy as elf ears.
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20:45:25 <fizzie> See http://www.wetanz.com/assets/Uploads/lotrearsfrodoblrg.jpg
20:45:59 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I just heard we actually also have a pair of hobbit ears, and a pair of bunny ears. So we're well stocked in the ears department. <-- why? from where?
20:46:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose just in case, if we needed ears.
20:46:26 <fizzie> Maybe you hear better with some?
20:46:56 <fizzie> Even the shape of the outer ear actually makes quite a difference in terms of what the signals look like.
20:47:08 <fizzie> So they're not quite just superfluous flabs of meat.
20:47:26 <fizzie> I don't suppose the ears we have have been designed with that in mind though.
20:47:32 <fizzie> It's more likely it's an aesthetic thing.
20:47:48 <olsner> so, apparently the finns have an obsession with ears... do you collect them in buckets too?
20:48:14 <Vorpal> olsner, why buckets specifically?
20:48:27 <Vorpal> anyway buckets are just like XXL ears
20:49:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you want details, apparently the bunny ears were for a may day thing ("May Day is known as Vappu, from the Swedish term. This is a public holiday that is the only carnival-style street festivity in the country. People young and old, particularly students, party outside, picnic and wear caps or other decorative clothing.") and the hobbit ears just because.
20:49:40 <fizzie> Was that one of elliott's many girlfriends? I've lost track of them.
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know what Swedish term that is
20:52:39 <Vorpal> I don't think we do that stuff over here
20:52:54 <olsner> maybe he means valborg
20:53:15 <Vorpal> olsner, well I never seen anyone wear bunny ears on such occasions
20:53:31 <olsner> fizzie: the word "Vappu" is not very similar :)
20:53:54 <fizzie> olsner: Matches /^va/.
20:54:37 <fizzie> And May Day celebrations vary quite a lot from one country to another, possibly even more than for average public holidays.
20:54:48 <fizzie> In Finland it seems to be mostly about drinking.
20:55:12 <olsner> that matches the swedish version very well
20:55:23 <Vorpal> olsner, first of may is generally the left wing parties having large demonstrations here though
20:55:34 <Vorpal> it is the day before that is about drinking for some
20:55:36 <fizzie> I believe we've adopted our cap traditions from you guys.
20:56:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mashed together a group of separate traditions into a single one?
20:56:14 <fizzie> Well, it's the day before when we celebrate, too. Though they do have some left-leaning things also on that day.
20:56:22 <ais523> oklopol: loss = negative profit
20:56:50 <Vorpal> ais523, how much loss?
20:57:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The Uppsala cap is traditionally only worn only in summer, from Walpurgis Night until the end of September. In Lund, the white cap is also donned at Walpurgis and taken off in the fall, but students can exchange it for a winter variant with a dark blue crown during the rest of the year." It sounds like you have the caps related to that day too, so I'm not sure what you're complaining ...
20:57:15 <ais523> Vorpal: news report doesn't say, trying to look it up now
20:57:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: The English word for it.
20:57:37 <Vorpal> ais523, for MS that isn't a lot
20:57:51 <ais523> apparently it paid $6.3 million for a company which turned out to be worth only $100,000
20:57:56 <ais523> according to their accountants, at least
20:58:04 <ais523> so perhaps it's a complex tax dodge more than anything else
20:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also note traditionally. No one ever wears the student cap thingy except during "studenten" (however you translate that) and maybe a couple of more times these days
20:58:43 <Vorpal> it is not an everyday headwear
20:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, huh, which company is that
20:59:11 <ais523> Vorpal: "graduation", perhaps? (graduation = a ceremony where students who've passed their exams are officially made into bachelors/masters/doctors)
20:59:28 <Vorpal> ais523, err, it is like the graduation out of high school
20:59:33 <Vorpal> before you start university
20:59:35 <olsner> Vorpal: you may be confused about the two different kinds of student caps
20:59:37 <ais523> who I've never heard of
20:59:44 <Vorpal> olsner, there is more than one?
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20:59:50 <Vorpal> ais523, what did they do?
21:00:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not everyday here either, but since May Day is the first day when you "can" wear it, it's commonly worn then. (Not that everyone bothers.)
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21:00:27 <olsner> there would be at least three I think, one for the high school students graduation, one for university students (summer cap), and that winter cap
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21:00:44 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, I never seen those other two
21:01:07 <olsner> but fwiw, in this city the university students all use the blue cap, and seem to wear it whenever they want to
21:01:15 <fizzie> We don't have winter variants. But on May Day, the high school graduates wear their cap, while university students from places that do the cap thing wear theirs.
21:01:29 <fizzie> Except I haven't managed to bother getting mine yet.
21:01:55 <oklopol> "ais523 oklopol: loss = negative profit" i was referring to "Google image search suggests they're kinda sharp-cornery but not quite as pointy as elf ears."
21:02:05 <oklopol> which losses could totally be
21:02:09 <fizzie> It has a kind of a tassel.
21:02:55 <olsner> most people don't bother, mostly because it involves tying around hundreds of knots on small pieces of string making up the tuft
21:02:58 <Vorpal> olsner, which city is that?
21:03:15 -!- elliott__ has joined.
21:03:20 <elliott__> just realised i was in here for a reason
21:03:21 <fizzie> Looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/TFteknolog.jpg
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21:04:12 <elliott__> maybe i can just ignore everyone in the channel except for join/parts
21:04:19 <fizzie> oklopol: I would assume you've seen a teekkarilakki before.
21:05:20 <fizzie> elliott__: I think that should be possible, but you'll need to look up the /ignore syntax yourself. Anyway, I seem to recall it had a "level" style argument, and then it does wildcards (maybe regexps too) so you can make it match everyone.
21:05:25 <zzo38> Does the user mode +D do that, or does it ignore join/parts too?
21:05:49 <Vorpal> olsner, I hate either Linköping or Lindköping. I haven't decided which one yet. But I keep confusing their names
21:05:58 <elliott__> Thta's probaly t he simplest solut ion
21:06:43 <olsner> Vorpal: lindköping doesn't exist
21:07:27 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure I seen that written in many places
21:07:31 <olsner> Vorpal: you may be confusing it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidköping
21:08:01 <olsner> elliott__: last time I checked it was doing message passing between processes
21:08:16 <nortti> olsner: is it available anywhere?
21:08:17 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm glad there isn't a lindköping as well then, that would be even more confusing
21:08:17 <fizzie> Well perhaps you should CATCH IT THEN aha ah haha haa.
21:08:32 <elliott__> olsner: Ah, I see, it is a very backwards design. In @ we do not have message passing or processes. In fact @ does not even do *anything*!
21:08:54 <Vorpal> elliott__, so what makes it go?
21:09:19 <fizzie> Do you have Prince @ in a can? (I think a joke goes like this.)
21:09:22 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:09:25 <Vorpal> oh okay, I guess if that is not in your feature list you shouldn't have any issues
21:09:26 <nortti> elliott__: how do you do anything with @ ?
21:09:33 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:10:32 <nortti> well even I am aiming to make my bytecode kernel based OS somewhat usable
21:10:40 <olsner> I think I was working on the VM stuff when I realized there was nowhere the VM code could get memory from to map it into address spaces, so I had to do side-track into message passing
21:11:41 <nortti> olsner: so it is protected address space OS?
21:12:21 <olsner> microkernel:ish, for every thing I do it ends up closer and closer to just being an L4 clone
21:12:36 <elliott__> LYou know L4 is bad because it has features. @ doesn't have those.
21:12:46 <nortti> ok. my os is shared address space
21:13:20 <nortti> (protection is done in the bytecode interpreter
21:13:43 <olsner> elliott__: L4 is also bad because it already exists, and me making a worse version of L4 will not help anyone :)
21:13:44 <elliott__> nortti: That's just like @ except worse.
21:13:57 <elliott__> With @ everything runs in ring 0 but also it does not use an interpreter!
21:14:28 <elliott__> Even Vorpal knows @'s design is great.
21:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott__, to be frank I don't remember the design of @ any longer
21:14:47 <Vorpal> I guess it was forgettable ;P
21:15:12 <nortti> Vorpal: not currently. it is split to asmkernel (in native code) and forthkernel (in bytecode). asmkernel contains the bytocede interpreter
21:15:21 <Vorpal> elliott__, not really, currently I'm on all Linux
21:15:23 <Taneb> @ is a thing that still doesn't exist yet?
21:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott__, I only dual boot once in a while
21:15:46 <nortti> elliott__: is the design of @ available somewhere?
21:15:55 <Taneb> I seem to remember it didn't have applications or something
21:15:56 <ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, what did they do? <--- advertising, it seems
21:15:57 <Vorpal> nortti, the logs of this channel
21:16:14 <elliott__> nortti: Yes, @'s design is available in elliott__.
21:16:24 -!- soundnfury has joined.
21:16:26 <zzo38> Everything runs in ring 0 and not use an interpreter? Does it do security? The only way I can think to make such a thing secure against processes damaging other processes and interfering with debuggers and so on, is to build the hardware around that idea.
21:16:33 <Taneb> (that's a building in Corbridge)
21:17:00 <elliott__> Taneb: *You're* a building in Corbridge.
21:17:03 <ais523> zzo38: it works by only running things that have been compiled via a compiler that's guaranteed not to produce unsafe code
21:17:44 <elliott__> (Actually there are some fairly good ways to run untrusted native code in an @ model safely.)
21:17:54 <Taneb> elliott__, is nortti a city in Espoo?)
21:17:58 <elliott__> (But they get you back something close to the overhead that standard OSes have for syscalls, though.)
21:18:13 <elliott__> (The main performance advantage @ gets is that syscalls are free.)
21:18:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:18:25 <soundnfury> ais523: I'm reminded of dmr's version of the cc
21:18:25 <fizzie> Taneb: Kauniainen is a city in Espoo (which is also a city).
21:18:39 <Taneb> Goodnight, everyone
21:18:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:18:42 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:18:56 <elliott__> soundnfury: are you referring to Reflections on Trusting Trust?
21:19:10 <soundnfury> the cc that inserted a backdoor when compiling 'login', and inserted the backdoor insertion code when compiling itself
21:19:20 <ais523> trusting-trust attacks are really really fragile
21:19:36 <ais523> defeated by a change to the relevant code in the compiler, or by the use of a different compiler
21:19:50 <soundnfury> yeah, but it's still a really cute idea
21:19:56 <elliott__> (also they're counterable, although the process is so involved that nobody would bother)
21:20:12 <ais523> and possibly even noticeable via automated testing, if an old and new versions of the compiler are generating different code
21:20:23 <ais523> and the process is only involved if you're trying to get 100% security
21:20:35 <ais523> simply compiling it with a different compiler is good enough against all attacks that don't specifically deal with that
21:20:59 <Vorpal> ais523, I wonder if they could be made somewhat resilient to such things though. Maybe by patching the OS itself rather than the compiler, having it insert the relevant code when it detects the kernel is being compiled and so on
21:21:19 <zzo38> soundnfury: I have read about that; and then I thought about writing a BASIC compiler in C, and then a C compiler in BASIC, and then recompile the C compiler with that and then recompile 'login'
21:21:24 <soundnfury> what would be really fun would be a retrovirus - if you know of a compiler bug that allows you to mangle the compiler's intermediate representation by feeding it suitably-crafted input
21:21:28 <ais523> the problem is that "relevant code" requires you to know what the produced code from a specific binary is, in every possible compiler
21:21:42 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:21:58 <Vorpal> ais523, that could even handle patching kernel images being copied into the system after having been compiled elsewhere to some degree. Sure you can break that still.
21:22:09 <ais523> how do you detect something's a compiled version of login(8)?
21:22:46 <ais523> and wher the bit in the code that does validation is?
21:22:58 <Vorpal> ais523, if you target the kernel I think it is easier to do such detection. You could make the kernel detect if anyone put something like a bzImage into /boot for example and patch it on the fly at that point.
21:22:59 <soundnfury> if it calls all of some set of syscalls it might be detectable
21:23:20 <soundnfury> login(8) presumably calls getpwd() and friends and some kind of crypt function, what else must it call?
21:23:24 <Vorpal> ais523, no need to touch the compiler at all even. A somewhat different attack sure
21:23:59 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I suspect it calls pam on modern systems
21:24:04 <elliott__> for what it's worth @'s design has flaws not shared by unix and i do not believe they are so irrelevant as in my naive youth
21:24:06 <ais523> Vorpal: what patch do you use, though?
21:24:11 <elliott__> but unix is still a bad design and @ has some good points to it
21:24:18 <ais523> you can't write a kernel patch that causes logins with a particular username/password to succeed
21:24:32 <ais523> without knowing the details of login
21:24:55 <zzo38> ais523: Making everything compiled using a compiler that's guaranteed not to produce unsafe code, is one way. But I also was building some hardware, some ideas, although it may not be x86 (it may be ARM), everything runs in ring 0 and not use an interpreter, although the memory management unit and other hardware is designed to make it secure, ...
21:25:55 <nortti> zzo38: but wouldn't the code be able to disable the security as it runs in ring 0?
21:25:58 <zzo38> ... so that, for example, the software cannot damage the hardware, cannot load a virus, cannot corrupt the system (much of which is stored in ROM anyways), cannot make arbitrary reads or jumps into the BIOS (it must use NMI to access the BIOS), etc
21:26:13 <Vorpal> ais523, you could do stuff like making a certain key combo on the terminal perform something
21:26:35 <ion> elliott______________: hai
21:26:40 <nortti> zzo38: but how could it prevent apps from stomping on each other's memory
21:26:42 <Vorpal> ais523, such as starting sh as root
21:26:47 <zzo38> nortti: No, because the hardware which controls the security would trigger NMIs and the NMI is locked to the BIOS.
21:26:56 <elliott__> ion: declare your allegiance to 41qys-crawl
21:27:52 <zzo38> nortti: It is a single-tasking system, the only other tasks that can run are the BIOS and a debugger. The debugger can access everything, but the memory management unit prevents it from being accessed by the main task, so it can only be accessed by NMI.
21:28:34 <zzo38> (However, this also means, you always need to trigger NMI whenever you want to make a BIOS call; this should be OK since the program would not need to normally make a lot of BIOS calls)
21:31:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, what use is a single task system these days?
21:31:33 <nortti> Vorpal: well DOS is still usable
21:32:36 <Gregor> Real-time systems are sometimes single task.
21:32:49 <zzo38> But even though the BIOS will be slow due to this and other checks the BIOS makes when being called (although like I said it would not need to be called many times in one second or anything like that), it also means that if the user upgrades the BIOS ROM, the program cannot refuse to run just because the serial number is different or because the user modified the BIOS to break the copy protection of the program, or whatever other reason.
21:33:42 <zzo38> Another advantage of single-task is that no relocatable binaries are needed, and the memory image can just be saved to disk and continued later on if you wanted to.
21:33:57 <Vorpal> nortti, for what tasks?
21:34:06 <Vorpal> nortti, and fsvo means "for some values of"
21:34:08 <zzo38> And, yes, it is real-time, too.
21:34:37 <nortti> Vorpal: well it has TCP/IP stack, links2 port and gcc
21:35:08 <Vorpal> nortti, that is indeed fsvo
21:37:24 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:38:07 <zzo38> This hardware and BIOS is designed for many things, one of which is to thwart copy protection.
21:38:50 <zzo38> Because copy protection and DRM is also considered a kind of malware.
21:39:08 <zzo38> nortti: Haven't I already described it?
21:39:38 <nortti> I still have no idea how it prevents malware from running btw
21:40:23 <Vorpal> your design sounds like it would simplify DRM
21:40:41 <Vorpal> by the hardware manufacturer that is
21:41:03 <zzo38> The software cannot easily just tell the user to install that software's BIOS or whatever since that would require the user to open up the computer and move some jumpers.
21:41:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, we protect against that with trademarks.
21:41:39 <zzo38> As well as keeping the hardware design 100% open.
21:42:29 <zzo38> If anyone building a clone of our system includes DRM but says it is compatible anyways, we can sue them for trademark violation.
21:42:59 <nortti> but how does it prevent DRM in user software?
21:43:36 <zzo38> That is part of what the BIOS does; haven't I explained that already?
21:44:11 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
21:44:38 <nortti> yes but I have no idea how you'd break compatibility with DRM'd software withou breaking compatibilyti with everything else
21:45:06 <zzo38> nortti: It already does break compatibility with everything else that is not specifically designed for this computer (unless you use an emulator).
21:45:50 <nortti> zzo38: yes but I mean when someone writes DRM'd software for it
21:45:55 <zzo38> The debugger can only be given by root permissions, and for the user to even have root permissions requires moving jumpers, which would make it difficult for a third party software vendor to tell the user to move them, especially if there is a warning in the case.
21:46:19 <zzo38> nortti: The idea is that they would find that difficult to do.
21:46:50 <nortti> what about software calling home for verification?
21:47:32 <MDude> I was tihnking it would be neat to have a system sort of liek that, only instead of moving jumpers, you'd have the operating system in a special slot that only allows reading.
21:47:39 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, we protect against that with trademarks. <-- ?
21:48:17 <MDude> So to change it you'd need to have a second drive, wite the new vesion to that and physically swap them.
21:48:24 <Vorpal> <zzo38> The debugger can only be given by root permissions, and for the user to even have root permissions requires moving jumpers, which would make it difficult for a third party software vendor to tell the user to move them, especially if there is a warning in the case. <-- so a hardware vendor implementing this platform could just remove said jumpers from the retail version
21:49:15 <zzo38> nortti: Although that is not prevented, you could crack the security without too much difficulty once it has been verified once, by capturing the packets and record the memory, and then modify the BIOS to pretend about those thing. In addition, if they claimed that their software was compatible with our system if they used that kind of verification, we would sue them for trademark violation.
21:49:22 <MDude> But they could already do something like that by basing their product on the iphone.
21:50:02 <MDude> Is claims of compatibility really a violation of trademark?
21:50:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: If they did that, they would be sued for trademark violation if it is said to be compatible anyways; since removing those jumpers would automatically make their version considered imcompatible.
21:50:30 <elliott__> i do not think trademarks work that way.
21:50:34 <nortti> zzo38: what if laws say that is unlawful?
21:50:49 <zzo38> nortti: Say what is unlawful?
21:50:55 <MDude> I tihnk some companies have tried that on the grounds that compatability somehow implies endoresment.
21:51:06 <nortti> zzo38: cracking the DRM
21:51:44 <MDude> SO you would have DRM specifically to block other DRM from being used?
21:51:52 <zzo38> nortti: Well, if anyone sues someone for cracking the DRM on their software on my system, we can countersue them for trademark violation.
21:52:12 <zzo38> MDude: No, it is completely open source, the BIOS and hardware is completely GNU GPL'd v3 or later version.
21:52:36 <MDude> But how is trademark involved?
21:52:55 <zzo38> Anyone can add DRM to the BIOS without violating copyright (although you may violate trademark from doing so), but then someone can remove them without being arrested.
21:54:48 <zzo38> MDude: Well, if they do not use the trademark then the software is not endorsed, so I can include with the system the warning message that says, this is not a real program! They are trying to trick you!
21:56:47 <zzo38> Your warranty will be voided! The computer might explode!
22:01:35 <zzo38> If a hardware manufacturer *did* build it without those jumpers, you can just purchase from another manufacturer or add those jumpers yourself. If they try to modify the BIOS and that stuff to protect us from doing that, then we can figure them out to circumvent them, from the source-codes, and our own system will still work. If they don't let you to do that, then they can be sued for copyright violation.
22:02:43 <zzo38> We ensure there is no "extra room" that someone can add these antifeatures in a rewritten clone of their own design.
22:03:15 <zzo38> Now do you understand???
22:04:05 <nortti> uuh. sorry but that isn't really my definition of open/free platform
22:04:34 <Vorpal> <MDude> SO you would have DRM specifically to block other DRM from being used? <-- sounds like that definitely
22:04:46 <Vorpal> anyway I would hate a a single task system for daily use
22:05:23 <Vorpal> "<zzo38> Your warranty will be voided! The computer might explode!" <-- they could just remove said message
22:06:12 <nortti> if they couldn't why not go straight for apple style "we control your device and apps you have" aproach
22:10:42 <zzo38> They could remove the message if they are a hardware manufacturer; if they are a software manufacturer then they can't because it is part of the system manual.
22:11:12 <nortti> umh. how does that work?
22:12:28 <zzo38> It is open/free since all the design and everything being GNU GPL v3 or later version licensed, and there is no requirement that we approve the software if it is put on there; they simply are not allowed to claim we approved it when in fact we have not done so.
22:12:32 -!- nooga has joined.
22:12:49 <zzo38> And again, even if it is not approved, it cannot affect other parts of the system other than itself anyways.
22:13:32 <zzo38> That is, I am main hardware manufacturer so anyone else is not considered endorsed unless we endorse them!
22:14:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:14:31 <elliott__> basically your system is immune to drm because you define any system with drm to not be your system any more
22:14:32 <zzo38> I am not saying the hardware has DRM, it is simply having security similar to that a UNIX kernel might have, but at the hardware level.
22:15:07 <zzo38> elliott__: Well, sort of.
22:16:07 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bandanas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:17:42 * oerjan realizes the topic will nearly always be inaccurate in some time zone
22:19:07 <zzo38> If someone wanted to include our logo on the DVD case of their software, they would first need to ask me to approve it. And then they follow some of these requirements (some are absolute while others are just recommendations), we assign them a licensee code, software code, etc, and figure out the checksum, and include it in our database, and then they can use our logo.
22:19:15 <oerjan> <Vorpal> olsner, well, apart from oerjan <-- i can confirm i am not a young girl. *teehee*
22:20:23 <nortti> zzo38: so it is kinda like how apple does it. they restrict what you are allowed to do with your own device if they don't like it
22:21:48 <zzo38> nortti: No they don't. You can do whatever you want with your own device, including to run unapproved software. This approval is not required to make the software run.
22:22:15 <zzo38> And the owner of the device can even modify the hardware and software and instructions for doing so are included in the manual, too.
22:22:40 <zzo38> Unlike Apple, approval is not mandatory, but it is recommended.
22:22:53 <itidus21> they can't take away your electrons though
22:23:30 <nortti> zzo38: oh. but if approval is not mandatory you can't stop DRM'd code running platform
22:24:10 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, that is true. It is impossible to completely stop it; but some kinds of DRM are just too difficult to implement because of the way the hardware is wired up.
22:24:33 <zzo38> And many of the other kinds become very easy to crack.
22:25:02 <nortti> but the we run to DMCA like bullshit
22:25:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:26:05 * itidus21 finds that the ratio of bulls to bullshit in the world is strangely askew.
22:26:52 <itidus21> i mean theres more bullshit than there is bulls to produce it
22:27:17 <elliott__> did you know bulls shit more than once in their life
22:27:31 <nortti> well bulls can produce large amounts of shit
22:28:00 <itidus21> now that i've had my fun, back to the topic
22:28:19 <zzo38> What is "the we run to DMCA like bullshit"?
22:28:36 <itidus21> ^then we run to DMCA-like bullshit
22:29:04 <nortti> zzo38: DMCA makes it illegal to break DRM. also s/the/then/
22:29:16 <itidus21> but, bullshit is registered at the ministry of funny walks
22:29:20 <zzo38> You won't be arrested unless you are caught, though.
22:29:31 <elliott__> nortti: I don't think that is true.
22:30:02 <elliott__> From a quick Google, see this ruling: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/07/apple-loses-big-in-drm-ruling-jailbreaks-are-fair-use/ http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/07/25/court.says.cracking.drm.ok.if.purpose.is.legal/
22:30:28 <zzo38> And the optional full drive encryption and RAM scrambling features and so on can make it much more difficult to get caught.
22:31:58 <pikhq> elliott__: It makes it a crime to circumvent any "access-control technology", except when the Library of Congress grants an exception...
22:32:37 <pikhq> elliott__: Though that second thing you linked at could be valuable precedent.
22:33:12 <zzo38> Anyway this computer is made in Canada. It can be used in any country you want, subject to their laws, but it is made in Canada, so the Canadian laws apply to the trademark approval process.
22:33:21 <pikhq> Unfortunately, you'd almost certainly get sued if you tried.
22:33:32 <nortti> zzo38: have you heard of c-11?
22:33:39 <zzo38> nortti: Yes I have heard of it.
22:33:54 <zzo38> I don't know if they approve it though.
22:34:09 <nortti> zzo38: I has already passed
22:34:09 <pikhq> In fact, because that decision was made at a relatively low level, it could almost certainly be overturned.
22:34:41 <pikhq> elliott__: Worse still, it makes it a crime to violate anything that could plausibly be interpreted as an *attempt* to prevent copying...
22:34:50 <pikhq> elliott__: ROT13, for instance.
22:35:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Then what about double-ROT13 (i.e. the identity function)?
22:35:37 <zzo38> nortti: Well, we try to fight against such stupid laws.
22:35:51 <nortti> zzo38: you are canadian?
22:36:07 <pikhq> (that's not a reductio ad absurdum, that's a god damned *case*. An early ebook "DRM" scheme was ROT13, I shit you not.)
22:36:24 <nortti> zzo38: are you supporter or member of canadian pirate party?
22:37:01 <zzo38> nortti: Not officially.
22:37:54 <nortti> pikhq: in what system?
22:45:19 -!- guillaumemorgan has joined.
22:45:44 -!- guillaumemorgan has left.
22:45:49 <HackEgo> gau: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:46:57 <oerjan> the star trek lovers here might like this little story http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/120717.html
22:47:13 <oerjan> (or alternatively, hate it with a passion.)
22:47:57 <nortti> does anyone of you have any experience with any
22:48:00 <oerjan> elliott__: gau doesn't tab complete to guillaumemorgan in any case
22:48:11 <nortti> +32 bit microcontrollers
22:48:20 <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:37 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:41 <HackEgo> 850) <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:52 <nortti> elliott__: what about ^u ?
22:49:39 <nortti> elliott__: oh. that wasn't a screen shortcut
22:49:52 <elliott__> i don't have my gtk keybindings set to emacs
22:50:33 <elliott__> oerjan: i wonder if you can track the degeneration in my typing and language w/ the qdb
22:50:50 <elliott__> quintopia: also does nothing when on the last line
22:51:15 <nortti> quintopia: are you using irssi?
22:51:27 <nortti> elliott__: is xchat graphical?
22:52:17 <elliott__> it uses the ncurses toolkit, which has only a rather hacky output backend based on ancient terminals
22:52:32 <elliott__> xchat is also graphical, it uses gtk, which has only a rather hacky output backend based on ancient x11...
22:52:47 <nortti> elliott__: so xchat can't be run on console?
22:52:56 <elliott__> (a shell, for instance, is non-graphical, rather it is a linguistic interface, whether you implement it with vt100 or gtk or whatever)
22:53:06 <elliott__> nortti: i am sure there is a way to get gtk to output to framebuffer.
22:53:16 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:53:30 <oerjan> if your irc client doesn't do 3d animations then it's rather hacky, kids
22:55:20 <elliott__> oerjan: did you play nethack in the 90s. you seem like the kind of person who would have
22:55:28 <nortti> quintopia: does it do htcpcp?
22:55:54 <quintopia> that sounds like a mobile phone app for hallcinogens nortti
22:56:17 <nortti> quintopia: it is hypertext coffee pot control protocol
22:57:01 <quintopia> it makes starbucks-quality iced coffee get delivered to my cd drive
22:59:05 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:01:12 <elliott__> Obsession of the man is one of the most unknown and frightful phenomena, which stops evolutionary development of the man and brings its to full spiritual (and often to physical) death. The book and website "Obsession as a catastrophe" (http://en.odkk.ru) created by the group of not indifferent to this theme people. The materials was created on the personal practical experience of studying of the theme basing on the theory from the remarkable bo
23:01:12 <elliott__> oks of Blavatskaya E.P, Roerich H.I., Roerich N.K., Abramov B.N., Uranov N. and other names. The purpose of the creating of the book is necessity to pay attention of people on this terrible phenomenon for the conscious counteraction to it.
23:01:20 <elliott__> your daily dose of obsession of the man
23:01:33 <elliott__> http://en.odkk.ru/aura/5b_en.gif this image is so good
23:02:06 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:02:55 <oklopol> i - in a very gentlemanitan way - pointed this out to him.
23:04:05 -!- elliott__ has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:05:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:05:56 <elliott__> such happens whenever the topic exceeds maximum levels of stupidity
23:06:16 <oerjan> unless elliott__ isn't here, naturally.
23:06:26 <oerjan> then we reach the singularity instead.
23:06:53 <quintopia> in that making it stupid just so it can be reverted to this form invalidates the process
23:07:16 <oklopol> what was the previous one?
23:08:00 <oerjan> CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bandanas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
23:08:42 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to oqijwoij.
23:08:47 -!- oqijwoij has changed nick to elliott__.
23:08:59 <shachaf> elliott__: What are you doing in my channel?
23:09:21 <zzo38> shachaf: *Your* channel? I thought it was oqijwoij's channel!
23:10:14 <shachaf> elliott__: Guess what language I'm writing in!
23:10:33 <shachaf> Hint: It starts with "Java" and ends with "ava".
23:10:46 <oerjan> javaava, the best language
23:11:06 <shachaf> oerjan: It's actually JavaScriptava. Stop confusing the two!
23:11:07 <zzo38> Or perhaps it is Javava or Java
23:11:43 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:11:48 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:12:29 <shachaf> I think Java is a low-level language. :-(
23:14:56 <zzo38> I wrote a back story of my Dungeons&Dragons character.
23:16:44 <shachaf> copumpkin: Sometimes I think Haskell is a low-level language too.
23:16:53 <shachaf> But maybe it's a high-level language with low-level libraries.
23:17:12 <shachaf> (I guess that could apply to Java too. How do people live with this?!)
23:23:45 <zzo38> Is BLISS a high or low language? The documentation says high.
23:28:54 <zzo38> I think it can be both, as far as I can tell.
23:29:32 <oerjan> first you have to implement monads in forth, duh
23:29:46 <oerjan> (then zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms)
23:31:54 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:32:17 <zzo38> What are zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms?
23:33:48 <pikhq> nortti_: Forth is profoundly low-level, but with good abstraction facilities.
23:35:11 <oerjan> zzo38: a generalized recursion scheme, also a haskell inside joke. edwardk put it into some package, i think.
23:35:56 <oerjan> part of the joke is that it's ridiculously complicated, so i never remember exactly what it is
23:36:38 <zzo38> pikhq: That is what I meant.
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23:49:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you do know elliott__ finds that sort of thing annoying.
23:51:57 -!- elliot__ has quit (Quit: sorry, elliott__).
23:52:14 <nortti_> could someone explain to me simply what is a monad
23:52:33 <HackEgo> 409) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
23:52:52 <elliott__> nortti_: do you know any haskell / do you know any pure functional programming in general / do you know any category theory
23:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti_, basically the only way to know monads is to experience life in all its richness
23:53:02 <elliott__> if the answer to all three is no it is pointless trying to explain a concept specific to those fields
23:53:23 <nortti_> I have read few tutorials but I still don't understand monads
23:53:35 <elliott__> "monad tutorials" will not help you understand monads.
23:53:40 <elliott__> _especially_ if the answer to all those questions is no.
23:54:11 <lambdabot> goundoulf says: I've been reading a very good tutorial on haskell, because the [XMonad] config file was too obscure for me
23:54:19 <zzo38> nortti_: Monads is a endofunctor including return and join operations which follow certain laws. And then there is >>= which is combining fmap with join. Maybe you won't understand...
23:54:24 <elliott__> nortti_: ideally just read learn you a haskell and write actual haskell programs and you will figure out what a monad is better than any hamfisted irc explanation will give you
23:54:43 <elliott__> they are not complicated, they are just a simple concept that happens to tick most of the jargon boxes
23:54:48 <zzo38> Yes, writing a Haskell program, or just experimenting with monads in some other way, is best way.
23:54:57 <elliott__> so they get unwarranted focus from those unfamiliar with the jargon
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
23:55:46 <elliott__> nortti_: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia is a very good read for understanding Haskell's (mostly) theoretically-based typeclasses. but it is pointless trying to read it without enough haskell skill/experience to write regular programs in it fairly well, esp. with the exercises, so get that first
23:56:35 <zzo38> I don't know what the "category of endofunctors" is.
23:56:46 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
23:56:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just categories.
23:56:59 <zzo38> I do know what a endofunctor is and what a category is, though.
23:57:20 <shachaf> type Category = Just Category
23:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Category of endofunctors is where the objects are endofunctors and the morphisms are natural transformations.