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00:01:55 <oerjan> zzo38: there's an entire hierarchy of category - functor - natural transformation - etc. although i don't really know anything about what comes after natural transformation. and there is something called an n-category which has something to do with a structure that has such a hierarchy up to step n.
00:03:30 <elliott__> the next one is "unnatural transformation"
00:03:55 <oerjan> each step forms the objects of a category with the next step its morphisms
00:04:56 <oerjan> john baez used to blog about these things, before the word blog was invented
00:05:38 <oerjan> and (i think) he started a forum called the n-category cafe
00:06:30 <elliott__> (perhaps the least understandable blog ever???)
00:06:58 <oerjan> i don't know, i haven't tried reading it
00:07:28 <elliott__> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ now's your opportunity
00:09:01 <oerjan> that wikipedia picture is definitely _not_ what i would imagine him to look like
00:10:04 <oerjan> i don't have a very precise imagination, i just know that isn't it :P
00:10:09 <elliott__> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=john+baez&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&biw=1366&bih=685&sei=VfMJUNGpKoOr0QXDhtHoCg take your pick
00:12:22 <oerjan> I TAKE THAT FELIX KLEIN PICTURE
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00:51:23 <zzo38> I thought of what jumpers my computer design will have: Jumper 0 causes privilege mode to always be enabled (otherwise only the BIOS can do so). Jumper 1 enables the debugger. Jumper 2 allows ROM to be reflashed. Jumper 3 enters recovery mode. Jumper 4 changes the boot order. Jumper 5 slows down the computer. Jumper 6 and 7 set the region code (no code, NTSC, PAL, or SECAM).
00:53:56 <zzo38> (Normally, once it boots, if autostart is not enabled or no media which can be autostarted is inserted, a Forth interpreter will be loaded, and you can type BASIC at the prompt to enter a BASIC interpreter instead.)
00:56:33 <zzo38> (More specifically, Jumper 1 allows the Forth interpreter to become a privileged task, so that it may load a debugger or do anything else that would otherwise require privelege mode. Jumper 5 simply cuts the CPU clock speed in half in order to save energy.)
01:00:38 <zzo38> (Approval does *not* allow your program to bypass the security! Only a user physically adjusting the computer (instructions are provided in the manual and require only a screwdriver) can do that.)
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01:06:34 <pikhq> "in Europe and the UK, lemonade is a carbonated drink" I... What?
01:06:50 <zzo38> O, they have carbonated lemonade in UK?
01:07:02 <zzo38> I know some people have been in UK I will ask them.
01:07:34 <oerjan> well it's news to _me_
01:08:39 <elliott__> i had some today, in fact. (the cloudy kind.)
01:09:03 <oerjan> our carbonated citrus drinks are usually orange based, fanta and the local competitor solo
01:09:48 <elliott__> the standard carbonated lemonade is generally transparent. the flavour is hard to describe
01:09:54 <oerjan> and i guess there are some even less well-known brands
01:10:09 <elliott__> but you can imagine cloudy lemonade basically like fanta if it was made with lemons, except less sugary and more bitter. well, that's not really a good explanation.
01:10:21 <oerjan> hm is sprite a carbonated lemonade?
01:10:33 <elliott__> sprite is lemon-lime -- so close enough, yes
01:10:43 <elliott__> imagine sprint without the lime :p
01:11:07 <elliott__> (for normal lemonade. cloudy/"traditional" is different still.)
01:13:30 <zzo38> Do they have carbonated television?
01:13:39 <kmc> I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS
01:13:44 <kmc> lemonade in the UK is clear
01:13:46 <kmc> what a country
01:13:50 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm a bit fizzy on that concept
01:15:04 <elliott__> kmc: as established, cloudy lemonade is not clear
01:15:33 <elliott__> kmc: have you tried cloudy lemonade? have you been to the uk
01:16:02 <copumpkin> I therefore speak for all UK people
01:16:02 <kmc> i'm in the UK as we speak
01:16:10 <kmc> i have not tried cloudy lemonade in the UK
01:16:12 <copumpkin> oh, in that case I shall let kmc speak for everyone
01:16:15 <kmc> i hear it's still fizzy
01:17:46 <shachaf> Ugh, "cloudy" means "carbonated"?
01:17:50 <shachaf> I can't drink carbonated things.
01:18:01 <elliott__> no, both cloudy and non-cloudy lemonade are carbonated
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01:18:53 <kmc> non-cloudy lemonade looks exactly like water
01:19:11 <elliott__> kmc: well, sparkling water, rather.
01:19:21 <kmc> i meant in the bottle
01:19:24 <kmc> it is fizzy
01:19:46 <kmc> i'm in The Other Cambridge right now
01:20:22 <shachaf> He is said to live in Hex hamuk.
01:21:22 <oerjan> elliott__ is unvisitable, like me
01:21:32 <shachaf> oerjan: What makes your unvisitable?
01:21:41 <elliott__> oerjan: have I mentioned I'm going to visit Trondheim some day
01:21:53 <oerjan> i could tell you but then i'd have to kill you
01:22:10 <shachaf> kmc: I wrote an Android program.
01:22:14 <shachaf> It's kind of terrible. :-(
01:22:39 <elliott__> oerjan: if I was in Trondheim where would be an ideal to intercept you walking somewhere. theoretically.
01:23:44 <oerjan> why outside my favorite restaurant, of course. too bad it's closing in a month or so.
01:25:22 <elliott__> if i stand in the middle and shout OERJAAAAAN (with butchered pronunciation) really loudly, will you hear
01:25:22 <oerjan> hundredsomethingthousand people
01:25:53 <shachaf> oerjan would pretend not to listen.
01:27:20 <elliott__> clearly i will just peek into the windows of every house in trondheim and compare to that one photo of you
01:27:34 <pikhq> This whole "carbonated lemonade" thing is friggin' weird to me. US lemonade = diluted, sweetened lemon juice.
01:28:48 <elliott__> i am sure you can get some nice cloudy lemonade _somewhere_ in the us
01:28:57 <oerjan> elliott__: sounds like a plan. although my drapes are currently shut.
01:29:12 <kmc> pikhq: vastly diluted, vastly sweetend
01:29:27 <kmc> most lemonade in the US is high-fructose corn syrup with flavorings and 0-3% lemon juice
01:29:34 <pikhq> kmc: Well, yes, it's the US.
01:30:00 <pikhq> kmc: I mean, c'mon, look at sweet tea. It's actually saturated with sugar.
01:30:22 <copumpkin> kmc: whatcha doing in the one true cambrifge?
01:30:22 <elliott__> oerjan: first the houses will be broken into to open their drapes.
01:30:36 <kmc> copumpkin: here with an alum friend
01:30:44 <kmc> we dined at a college
01:30:49 <kmc> excessively nice food :)
01:30:54 <kmc> i put on a suit
01:31:01 <copumpkin> yeah, it's very fancy around there
01:31:01 <kmc> it was worth it
01:31:06 <kmc> then i drank many beers
01:31:22 <oerjan> elliott__: you're secretly related to rube goldberg, aren't you
01:31:22 <copumpkin> I hope you wore a top hat and a monocle
01:31:27 <copumpkin> everyone knows that's what they do in england
01:32:57 <copumpkin> indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5SckoCX9s&feature=youtu.be
01:33:11 <pikhq> Now I know what UK people must think of iced tea...
01:34:11 <pikhq> shachaf: Exactly what it sounds like. Tea, served cold.
01:34:26 <shachaf> pikhq: In the US or in the UK?
01:35:15 <shachaf> Is tea, served cold also a blasphemy?
01:35:37 <pikhq> It's the thing itself that's blasphemy.
01:43:09 * oerjan is wondering if the internet connection is flaky today
01:43:25 <shachaf> elliott__: Why do Java people use strings everywhere?
01:43:26 <oerjan> i keep having to reload webpages
01:43:58 <oerjan> elliott__: i have mackerel with tomato in a tube, does that count?
01:44:17 <elliott__> shachaf: it is not like it is easy to describe more complex objects in Java expressions.
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01:45:56 <shachaf> elliott__: That's true, but come on! "foo".getBytes("utf-8") can throw an exception even though UTF-8 is guaranteed to exist.
01:46:09 * oerjan recalls reading a newspaper article about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea
01:46:18 <oerjan> elliott__: isn't that usually the case.
01:46:22 * shachaf recalls consuming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea
01:46:53 * oerjan never tasted it, though
01:46:55 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean that I consumed the "tea".
01:47:05 <shachaf> Though I guess I consumed portions of the article.
01:48:03 <zzo38> Today, while on a BBS connected by Telnet, I read a message on alt.2600 that someone mentioned they wanted to use a BBS connected by Telnet...
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01:48:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Was that someone you?
01:48:38 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it was someone else who posted that message, the message included a lot of other stuff too
01:49:18 <shachaf> Did it have anything about Magic: The Gathering?
01:51:43 <oerjan> like php, but one step worse
01:52:01 * oerjan watches universe implode in paradox
02:04:27 <zzo38> Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
02:04:31 <zzo38> Prove that for any natural N, 1000^N - 1 cannot be a divisor of 1978^N - 1
02:11:50 <oerjan> hmph both sides are divisible by 3
02:12:53 <zzo38> Yes I think you are correct it is divisible by nine I have not noticed that before.
02:13:03 <oerjan> > [7^n `mod` 9 | n <- [1..]]
02:13:04 <lambdabot> [7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,...
02:13:41 <oerjan> the right side is divisible by 9 if n is divisible by 3
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02:15:22 <oerjan> usual digital root calculation
02:15:49 <quintopia> so the other factor must be the interesting one
02:16:21 <quintopia> the left side is divisible by 27 if N is 1 mod 3
02:16:53 <quintopia> the left side is always divisible by 27
02:17:22 <oerjan> it's always divisible by 999, come to think of it
02:18:24 <quintopia> 999*1001, 999*1001001, 999*1001001001 etc
02:18:34 <oerjan> > [17^n `mod` 37 | n <- [1..]]
02:18:36 <lambdabot> [17,30,29,12,19,27,15,33,6,28,32,26,35,3,14,16,13,36,20,7,8,25,18,10,22,4,3...
02:19:27 <oerjan> actually we have enough to deduce that
02:20:08 <oerjan> fermat's little theorem
02:20:38 <quintopia> thats the 37th term if you start at 0. also the first term :P
02:20:47 <oerjan> so n must be divisible by 36 :P
02:21:45 <oerjan> those are also factors once n is divisible by 2
02:21:59 <oerjan> (which we have now proved)
02:22:15 <oerjan> elliott__: trying to prove 1000^n - 1 cannot divide 1978^n - 1
02:22:41 <quintopia> oerjan: maybe we can repeat this to show n is a multiple of 4?
02:23:02 <HackEgo> 999999999: 3 3 3 3 37 333667
02:23:19 <HackEgo> 999999999999: 3 3 3 7 11 13 37 101 9901
02:23:28 <oerjan> quintopia: um we know n is a multiple of 36
02:23:42 <oerjan> i'm just looking for smaller n so that factor can handle them
02:24:23 <oerjan> quintopia: if either 23 or 43 could show up, we'd be done :/
02:25:25 <quintopia> what if it doesnt show up til 10^108-1?
02:26:02 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]]
02:26:04 <lambdabot> [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,...
02:26:15 <elliott__> pikhq: hey, tell mike to make tup's output less ugly
02:26:26 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 43 | n <- [1..]]
02:26:27 <lambdabot> [11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,...
02:26:36 <elliott__> pikhq: it has developed so many bells and whistles in the form of coloured progress bars that i can no longer stand to look at it.
02:26:48 <oerjan> quintopia: alas, and in the 22 spot too
02:27:40 <oerjan> hm left hand is divisible by 43 if n divisible by 7
02:28:34 <oerjan> but that doesn't tell about what to do when n isn't
02:28:48 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
02:37:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: Agda is a low-level language. :-(
02:43:28 <elliott__> he has been gone since **may**. that is forever !!!
02:43:35 <elliott__> i nominate kmc as the substitute nsqx
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02:53:16 <oerjan> > [1978^n `mod` 9900 | n <- [1..]]
02:53:18 <lambdabot> [1978,1984,3952,5956,9868,6004,5812,2236,7408,1024,5872,2116,7648,544,6832,...
02:53:49 <oerjan> > [1978^n `mod` 9901 | n <- [1..]]
02:53:50 <lambdabot> [1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,564...
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02:54:49 <oerjan> > iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1
02:54:50 <lambdabot> [1,1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,5...
02:55:03 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1
02:55:18 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978
02:55:50 <oerjan> quintopia: i think i've got it
02:57:03 <oerjan> (1) the left hand side is always divisible by 999, which has 37 as a factor which only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 36.
02:58:21 <oerjan> (2) thus n is divisible by 4, which forces the left hand side to be divisible by 999999999999, which has 9901 as a factor. this only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 4950, which has 22 as a factor.
02:59:10 <shachaf> elliott__: are you the real elliott
02:59:14 <oerjan> (3) thus n is divisible by 22, which means the left hand side is divisible by 23. but 23 is a factor of 1978, giving a contradiction.
03:00:55 <oerjan> although if the 1978 is a hint that this was in some math competition back in that year, then there is likely a less computationally intensive solution
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03:10:37 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:27:15 <quintopia> how did you know 10^22-1 is divisible by 23 again?
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03:28:14 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]]
03:28:16 <lambdabot> [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,...
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03:30:56 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978
03:31:30 <quintopia> yeah that's definitely not the "math competition" solution :P
03:34:33 <shachaf> tswett: I think you're making things more confusing than before...
03:52:35 <elliott__> I see #haskell is still a shambling mess of people confusing themselves and others.
04:06:30 <zzo38> Is there a program to compile MML into a Csound score file?
04:09:14 <zzo38> I suppose I could try to write one if wanted.
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05:38:56 <Sgeo_> Geez, I can't even write a simple Tcl script without encountering a bug which static typing would have caught
05:39:11 <Sgeo_> Instead of puts $file $html
05:41:29 <fizzie> What's that do in TCL?
05:43:29 <fizzie> I mean, does it treat "html" as a string then? If so, you don't need static typing to catch that, just some simple syntax checking.
05:43:32 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";'
05:43:37 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -Mstrict -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";'
05:43:40 <fizzie> Bareword "html" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at -e line 1.
05:43:48 <pikhq_> fizzie: html is a string literal with or without quotes in Tcl.
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05:46:02 <pikhq_> Basically, he wrote fprintf(file, "html"); instead of fprintf(file, html);
05:46:23 <Sgeo_> Wait, static typing wouldn't have stopped it, I guess
05:46:37 <Sgeo_> Can easily make a similar mistake in Haskell, really
05:46:42 <pikhq_> Right. Type checking does jack shit there. :)
05:47:02 <fizzie> I see, but unquoted strings sound just as splubby as Perl barewords, which at least have been strongly discouraged in most contexts.
05:47:08 <fizzie> Though admittedly plain "print html;" passes use strict in Perl, too, because it's treated as a filehandle ID and prints $_...
05:47:35 <fizzie> (use warnings will burp about an unopened filehandle.)
05:48:00 <pikhq_> fizzie: If you had to quote strings he'd have to write that as "puts" $file $html or {puts} $file $html.
05:48:31 <pikhq_> Or perhaps even "puts" ["set" "file"] ["set" "html"]
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05:49:15 <Sgeo_> Tcl does seem nice for simple scripting
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05:49:41 <zzo38> Add opcodes "famicom_square", "famicom_vrc6_square", "famicom_disksystem", etc in Csound to emulate NES/Famicom audio. You can have "famicom_2a03" to emulate the internal channels together since they are capable of interfering with each other.
05:50:16 <Sgeo_> Is Tcl more consistent than Bash?
05:50:26 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm says yes.
05:52:18 <Sgeo_> I think I'm falling back in love with Tcl
05:53:00 <Sgeo_> Nice documentation, easy access to sockets and files, GUI stuff easy to get to when I'm ready to learn it, easy to pack stuff into an executable (maybe? Haven't tried it yet)
05:53:23 <Sgeo_> Just wish AST manipulation was as smooth as in Lisp, but that's an academic point
05:54:28 <pikhq_> It's one of the few languages where that's even a concept, anyways.
05:55:27 <pikhq_> API-wise, Tk is perhaps the best GUI library around.
06:01:47 <Sgeo_> I do wish there was an easier way than using an library (such as an OO system) to make commands that take options like -whatever
06:02:58 <zzo38> Also add opcode "impulse_tracker" which emulates Impulse Tracker's playback, given the necessary parameters corresponding to the sample and instrument settings, including tables for sample data and instrument envelopes.
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07:04:42 <zzo38> The frequency modulation in SoX does not seem to work......
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07:08:40 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joDonPTyMKA
07:16:26 <itidus21> it's as if, during the 80s and 90s, multimedia was an artform exploring it's constraints, and producing some wonderfully awful results
07:20:47 <pikhq_> That is freaking surreal.
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10:52:16 <itidus21> {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s}
10:52:54 <itidus21> i have a feeling that i might not have got that right
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12:11:46 <quintopia> augur: re: rent-a-friend. i almost thought he was steve martin for a minute, the way he was acting. very steve martinish feel.
12:14:29 <itidus21> so is my set building working there?
12:15:13 <itidus21> {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s}
12:15:33 <itidus21> the wikipedia page wasn't very clear... {F(x) : P(x)} is the most general form of set builder notation. For example, {x's owner : x is a dog} is the set of all dog owners.
12:16:29 <itidus21> the intended message is that the set of good multimedia apps from the 90s is the empty set
12:17:11 <quintopia> i understood it but it could have been written funnier
12:17:50 <itidus21> quintopia: well im wondering is it actually valid?
12:18:10 <itidus21> the difference between F(x) and P(x) is so difficult to ascertain
12:18:30 <itidus21> even in high school, i was criticized for not being funny when trying to apply academia to funny situations
12:20:16 <quintopia> F(x) is usually a transformation of the selected element, for instance extracting a related value via a known relation, or just wrapping it in some FOL expression
12:20:33 <quintopia> P is the predicate that determines what the set is
12:21:04 <quintopia> so {x: x is a good multimedia app from the 90s} would have been more standard
12:21:37 <itidus21> ahh.. so i basically didn't need to use F(x) :P
12:22:04 <quintopia> but {x: good(x) and x in 90s multimedia apps} might be closer to what you were trying to convey
12:22:38 <itidus21> hmm ok ill let you in on the secret
12:22:51 <itidus21> i like abusing notations to figure them out
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12:22:58 <quintopia> or {x: good(x)} \bigcap {x: 90sMultimediaApp(x)}
12:22:58 <itidus21> but it's not actually very smart
12:24:26 <itidus21> basically i figure if i do things the way everyone else does them i will only produce what everyone else has produced
12:25:49 <itidus21> my thought processes are really broken from the perspective of the things i try to think
12:26:37 <itidus21> but, as an average joe they're not any more broken than the next person
12:27:35 <itidus21> i will endeavour to give a concrete example
12:27:51 <itidus21> reading books can lead to an infinite regression of reading books
12:28:55 <quintopia> i dont need an example. i just want to know if avoiding the conventional rigor leads to increased originality as measured by output of quality original work
12:30:40 <itidus21> i like to think so, but my belief in it's originality tends to be due to a lack of knowing what work has been done
12:32:44 <itidus21> what i am finding is that it seems the capacity to enjoy is fairly independant of the things being enjoyed
12:33:26 <itidus21> and, i don't know if it's possible, if it's worthwhile, or how the capacity to enjoy things is cultivated
12:36:52 <itidus21> also, it is easy to make the fallacy that enjoyment is inherently good
12:40:54 <itidus21> if the things which already exist are sufficient to enjoy then for what purpose do i strive to find new original things to do
12:41:23 <itidus21> and if the things which already exist are not sufficient to enjoy, then why should whatever i do be any better?
12:42:22 <itidus21> and from this position, it seems the thing to do is learn to appreciate
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13:24:33 <Sgeo_> Only now, 6 years later, am I processing that a bug that I reported was fixed in WINE
13:24:47 <Sgeo_> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4242
13:24:53 <Sgeo_> I made a difference to software!
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14:02:24 <Taneb> Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not?
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14:09:35 <Taneb> I prefer medium-rare?
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14:20:47 <itidus21> if there was a means to use a complete imaginary turing machine, via magic at almost instantaneous completion rates, would anyone bother?
14:21:27 <Taneb> Nah, they're really hard to program in
14:23:56 <itidus21> i think its really fascinating that a thing can be useful even when it only exists in the imagination
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14:27:33 * itidus21 manufactures a flying car in his imagination called an itidus mobile which can theoretically let you drive around town without roads.
14:29:21 <elliott__> `addquote <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
14:29:31 <HackEgo> 851) <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
14:29:53 <HackEgo> 520) <fizzie> That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) <fizzie> The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though.
14:30:10 <nooga> Taneb: beef tartare is different dish than steak
14:30:39 <Taneb> itidus21, is it a gondola?
14:31:36 <itidus21> it travels at O(n) speeds (which most powered vehicles seem to do)
14:32:26 <itidus21> yes.. it travels at O(n) speeds as a function of the distance you wish to travel
14:33:11 <itidus21> and it is composed mostly of vestigial automobile components
14:33:22 <olsner> O(n) speed? and n is... the number of items in the list?
14:34:35 <itidus21> the ratio of the time it takes to travel 1 kilometres, to the time it takes to travel 5 kilometres, is 1:5
14:36:38 <itidus21> i think that metaphor would work better to describe the speed of a bus as a function of the number of passengers it collects
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15:07:10 <pikhq_> elliott__: I seem to have gained your aptitude at not-sleeping.
15:07:33 <pikhq_> elliott__: It's 09:07. I have yet to sleep.
15:07:39 <Sgeo_> I seem to get a bit silly when I'm sleep deprived
15:07:53 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not? <-- certainly, otherwise you could use a proof search to solve the halting problem
15:09:26 * oerjan is assuming Taneb knows that the halting problem is unsolvable, although the difference to what he asks is not very big...
15:09:45 <Taneb> I didn't realise proof searches were possible
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15:12:26 <oerjan> a proof is just a string fulfilling some requirements, and when the proof is totally formal and detailed it's easy to check them automatically
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15:14:02 <oerjan> it's just that there are exponentially many strings to check of any size, and there is no computable bound for how large a size you need (or else you could use _that_ to check whether a proof of halting exists)
15:15:22 <oerjan> which means it is completely impractical to search for the proof, but still trivial as pure mathematical principle
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15:33:12 <itidus21> so, i guess what that means is you never want to rely on a brute force search
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16:12:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure it means that
16:13:44 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure it means that there must exist a turing-machine such that the problem as to whether it halts or not is unprovable
16:16:43 <olsner> unless you happen to have an oracle for the halting problem
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16:24:02 <olsner> no, using two is strictly less powerful due to interoracular bickering
16:24:59 <elliott__> what would such a TM be, anyway? I can't imagine any such
16:25:04 <elliott__> although obviously they must exist
16:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It's pretty simple to do, just compute a machine that halts iff <unsolved problem>.
16:25:32 <elliott__> let's say you make a TM whose haltingness depends on goldbach's
16:25:36 <elliott__> that doesn't mean its haltingness is _unprovable_
16:25:42 <elliott__> just that we don't know which it is
16:26:15 <oerjan> you just use the godel sentence for your proof logic, duh
16:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There's also that thing about proving whether you can reach I by multiplying a given set of 3x3 matrices which is unsolvable in the general case.
16:27:06 <elliott__> oerjan: ...and you make a TM which depends on the truthness of that by implementing a proof search?
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16:27:19 <elliott__> er, by truthiness i mean provability, but
16:27:41 <elliott__> but hang on, you /know/ such a machine doesn't halt, because there is no such proof...
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16:28:22 <oerjan> knowing that something is unprovable sadly means having a proof in some higher sense
16:29:06 <elliott__> oerjan: has anyone figured out why logic is so fucked up
16:29:10 <olsner> you can prove that something is unprovable without making a statement on whether that something is true or not, I guess ... unless true means provable?
16:29:33 <elliott__> olsner: "true but unprovable" is a thing
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16:40:13 <olsner> elliott__: is that what the Gödel stuff says?
16:40:56 <olsner> but as I understood that, the truthiness is judged by a different system than the one it's unprovable in
16:42:25 <Taneb> Taneb's proof of the Halting Problem's undecidability: if there was a Turing-machine routine that could decide whether Turing-machines halt or not in finite time, there would be a Turing-machine that checked itself to see whether it halts or not, then if it does, goes into an infinite loop, otherwise halts
16:42:47 <Taneb> It's probably either invalid or somebody else's proof too
16:43:12 <Taneb> elliott__, this is the internet. I go by Taneb here
16:43:15 <elliott__> elliott's proof that 2 + 2 = 4: 2 = SS0, 4 = SSSS0, proceed by reduction
16:43:37 <elliott__> Taneb: no the joke is that it is the standard proof of the halting problem
16:43:53 <Taneb> I guess it's a pretty good proof, then
16:44:00 <Taneb> Good as in simple and works
16:44:11 <oerjan> well more or less. you are missing the technical trick that makes you able to _do_ that
16:44:13 <Taneb> Either that or I'd heard it before
16:45:10 <elliott__> i quite like tying the halting problem to a form of the Entscheidungsproblem
16:45:11 <Taneb> It seems quite similar to Quine's paradox
16:45:30 <elliott__> if you have a halting oracle, you can decide statements of the form (exists (n : Nat), p n)
16:45:52 <Taneb> Ignore the fact that I am in possession of the book Gdel, Escher and Bach
16:48:43 <oerjan> no it's Taneb this time
16:49:23 <Taneb> (I've pretty much permanently withdrawn it from my school library)
16:49:46 <oerjan> good, good, keeps it out of the hand of innocent people
16:50:19 <Taneb> BUT IN LESS THAN A YEAR I'LL HAVE TO RETURN IT
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18:30:25 <soundnfury> you know what's hard? cleaning and unseizing bearings
18:31:00 <soundnfury> I've spent several hours over the past couple of days getting thoroughly mucky hands
18:31:22 <copumpkin> anyone remember the various identities of vixey/fax? can someone PM them to me?
18:32:24 <soundnfury> "vixey" makes me think of cron. Which is wrong, because that's Vixie
18:33:14 <monqy> discipline your brain
18:33:48 <soundnfury> good for running executables in ELF format?
18:34:41 <monqy> elliott__: shock collar
18:34:57 <elliott__> monqy: that sounds unpleasant :''(
18:35:02 <monqy> wear it as a headband for extra pow & bang
18:35:15 <monqy> pretend it's a bandana to feel cool
18:35:27 <soundnfury> monqy: are you in fact an SMTP server?
18:35:48 <monqy> yes how did you know
18:36:03 <monqy> but the bang is bang for your buck
18:36:10 <monqy> the pow is pow for your buck but nobody says that
18:36:27 <monqy> a buck is like money but instead of being worth anything it's a joke
18:36:44 <elliott__> monqy: i don't want to spend money on getting electrocuted!!!!!!!
18:36:49 <elliott__> that's the worst use of money i can think of
18:38:06 <elliott__> monqy: release me from the pows & bangs :'(
18:38:15 <monqy> it was only a suggestion
18:38:24 <monqy> if you want your brain to run free & wild don't do it!!!!
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18:39:14 <elliott__> monqy: i don't know what i want :,(
18:40:17 <monqy> alternate disciplined and undisciplined to get a taste of both
18:40:34 <elliott__> monqy: but what if the discipline stops me from becoming undisciplined???
18:41:21 <monqy> ``too bad'' - brain
18:41:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `too: not found
18:42:37 <monqy> a friend who controls you
18:42:42 <monqy> a friend who was you all along
18:42:44 <elliott__> that doesn't sound very friendly!!!
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19:07:18 <Taneb> What advantages does having first-class modules grant?
19:07:27 <Taneb> Have I got the right understanding of "module"?
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19:08:27 <soundnfury> it means the post office delivers them faster
19:09:21 <olsner> it means you get a newspaper, free coffee and air conditioning
19:11:21 <fizzie> It means there's this graphical BBS client to use them with.
19:12:02 <kmc> wow it's an elliott__
19:12:08 <kmc> you wanted me to say things about unicode
19:12:15 <kmc> you may have heard all my unicode trivia
19:12:23 <nortti> elliott__: why are you not elliott?
19:12:27 <kmc> do you know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
19:13:24 <elliott__> kmc: tell me about unicode big endian
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19:36:35 <kmc> write what?
19:37:06 <Taneb> The Multiocular O, I believe
19:37:25 <kmc> they wrote it like this: http://www.stsl.ru/manuscripts/medium.php?col=1&manuscript=308&pagefile=308-0249
19:38:11 <kmc> note that the unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes, but the only original document i've seen with this character (just linked) has 10 eyes
19:39:12 <kmc> originally wikipedia had no clue about this character
19:39:23 <kmc> i spent some time tracking it down with the help of others
19:39:27 <kmc> that was an adventure
19:40:02 <olsner> you probably hold the world record in unicode-derived fun-having then
19:40:03 <kmc> it's quite lucky that i was able to find a copy of a certain soviet era paleography text on russian rapidshare
19:40:09 <kmc> i doubt it
19:40:28 <kmc> maybe someone on the committees
19:40:37 <olsner> you think they have fun?
19:40:38 <kmc> or someone who has implemented a unicode-aware terminal emulator
19:40:51 * kmc works on a unicode-aware terminal emulator, but not much on that side of it
19:42:25 <Taneb> That's not even "Fun"
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20:12:24 <Taneb> Why is #haskell so crowded
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20:24:31 <kmc> yeah i always wondered that
20:26:09 <Taneb> If a language's popularity corresponded linearly with the amount of people in the appropriate channel in #freenode, Haskell would be the second most popular language, after Python
20:26:25 <kmc> i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things
20:26:48 <kmc> but i still don't understand how this supports 900+ lurkers
20:27:14 <kmc> many of whom I assume don't understand the majority of what's said
20:27:31 <Taneb> People believe in intelligence by osmosis?
20:27:49 <Taneb> That's why Discovery Channel is so popular
20:27:52 <kmc> also at this point the channel is largely noob questions and bad answers to noob questions, and arguments over how to answer noob questions
20:28:02 <kmc> all of which gets tediously repetitive
20:29:08 <kmc> and one assumes, unappealing to longtime lurkers
20:31:24 <kmc> also a lot of people have their client lurk in a channel but don't ever read it
20:31:57 <Taneb> I've set my client to beep on new messages
20:32:07 <Taneb> So I rarely actually lurk
20:32:19 <Taneb> I'm good at ignoring things, I guess?
20:32:38 <kmc> so why have the beep at all
20:33:14 <Taneb> Because I get bored, and it sometimes distracts me from boredom?
20:33:51 <Taneb> Please don't try to get into an argument about this, because I know it's stupid
20:34:16 <kmc> fair enough
20:51:53 <elliott__> <Taneb> I've set my client to beep on new messages
20:52:07 <elliott__> <kmc> i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things
20:52:08 <Taneb> It stops if I leave it
20:52:14 <elliott__> this is a good comedy routine, you two
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20:54:01 <kmc> elliott__: do you disagree?
20:54:31 <elliott__> well have you been in #haskell recently
20:54:38 <kmc> not in some months
20:54:44 <kmc> i flip through logs occasionally
20:55:10 <kmc> it's going downhill, but unless things have dramatically accelerated then i stand by my statement
20:55:26 <elliott__> i mean there are smart people but there is too much noise to sustain any kind of smart conversation for long imo
20:56:06 <kmc> it's been trending in that direction
20:56:18 <kmc> what are the main types of noise
20:56:42 <elliott__> ...as well as some usual suspects of people who think they are one of the very smart/knowledgeable people but are, in fact, not
20:56:52 <elliott__> kmc: it is mostly just the typical newbie stuff
20:57:17 <elliott__> kmc: the main problem is that it has a lot of people who answer questions and very few who are good at it
20:57:25 <elliott__> and the people who are bad at answering questions trip over themselves trying to salvage their explanation
20:57:43 <kmc> the person who asked the question is ill-served by this
20:57:48 <kmc> and everyone else in the channel to
20:58:02 <kmc> this is why i kept agitating for people to write this shit down
20:58:14 <kmc> like, there is far too much oral tradition
20:58:27 <kmc> things which are important to know which you can't find out except by lurking in #haskell
20:59:05 <kmc> i wanted wiki pages which are curated by the community, which have not just someone's pet explanation but a collaboratively edited consensus of the best way to explain something
20:59:11 <elliott__> if I cared I would probably ask and self-answer an SO question whenever I see a common question come up for the nth time but it is really above my pay grade to do that, so I just ignore it
20:59:23 <kmc> but i realized that everyone (myself included) is too committed to their pet explanation and has no real data on which ones are better
20:59:48 <elliott__> answering SO questions got old after a while anyway, I only answer them if I see one with a simple two-paragraph answer I know I can explain well
21:00:20 <kmc> i had some other gripes with #haskell too
21:00:21 <kmc> besides the noise
21:00:26 <kmc> i don't think those will get better either
21:00:37 <olsner> for the last N years I've only ever said anything in #haskell because I mistook it for either #esoteric or #haskell-blah
21:00:45 <olsner> so now I've set things up so that the next time I reboot, #haskell won't be joined automatically
21:01:02 <kmc> i tried a little to get people to talk in #haskell-in-depth
21:01:06 <kmc> but it didn't work :/
21:02:49 <olsner> ooh, managed to halve the size of the native code for my Android app by twiddling with some gcc flags
21:03:08 <olsner> but I probably broke it too
21:03:27 <olsner> accidentally all the code or something
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21:23:00 <pikhq_> olsner: -fomit-text-segments? :P
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21:43:06 <olsner> pikhq_: actually it produced working code! :)
21:43:06 <HackEgo> 20WAAXGSE: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:43:12 <olsner> most of the magic was in the -fwhole-program and -fno-unwind-tables options
21:44:26 -!- mroman has joined.
21:44:26 <olsner> -fwhole-program did remove some stuff, but a couple of attribute((externally_visible)) annotations put back the actually-needed part of that stuff
21:44:47 <kmc> why is it putting unwind tables in? did you try -fno-exceptions?
21:45:15 <olsner> android's default setting is -fno-exceptions -funwind-tables
21:45:35 <nortti_> what are you talking about?
21:45:38 <olsner> (for stack traces, which is silly since my software won't crash)
21:45:46 <kmc> of course not
21:48:09 <olsner> added some fun-safe optimizations for good measure too
21:51:26 <kmc> -funsafe-math -ffuzzy-math -fsilly-math
21:52:29 <shachaf> -funsafe-math -fuzzy-math -friendly-math
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21:54:35 <itidus21> -family-math -fantasy-math -finnish-math
21:55:06 <Gregor> Oh no, not -finnish-math D-8
21:57:30 <itidus21> -frog-math -flower-math -fetish-math -functional-math
21:57:42 <kmc> hooray for -fnew-math
21:57:54 <itidus21> i am not sure which set these belong to, and i don't care to know
21:58:43 <nortti_> -f1984-math. now 2+2 equaps 5
21:58:46 <kmc> Did you hear about the law fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
21:59:43 <kmc> -fugly-code
22:00:40 <kmc> i saw a road sign today: "Humped Zebra Crossing"
22:05:31 <elliott__> i saw a road sign today that said "hi"
22:10:08 <oklopol> well did you say it back to it?
22:10:26 <olsner> maybe I should build a program to take an aspell database and find all words that can be prefixed with -f or -m and produce another words
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22:18:00 <elliott__> olsner: aspell databse? just use /usr/share/dict/words :P (or is that an aspell database?)
22:19:30 <olsner> I once wrote a program that used aspell to build a list of all swedish words (obviously the words file didn't have those)
22:19:40 <olsner> not aspell itself, but its files
22:24:55 <Gregor> You mean aspell dump master `aspell dump dicts | grep '^sv_'`
22:30:12 <elliott__> Gregor: swedish lets you put words together, as I understand it
22:30:36 <Gregor> So you need the powerset of all words.
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23:22:35 <elliott__> shachaf: Is nand` holding up the channel again?
23:23:01 <shachaf> elliott__: It happens. :-(
23:23:31 <shachaf> 03:28 <shachaf> In the grand scheme of things, #haskell is a stupid waste of time.
23:23:34 <shachaf> 03:28 <shachaf> I don't know why I even go there. :-(
23:24:05 <elliott__> (Has anyone told nand` that he wastes a lot of time?)
23:24:54 <elliott__> `addquote <ais523> rogues using maces is traditional [...] <ais523> not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition
23:24:57 <HackEgo> 852) <ais523> rogues using maces is traditional [...] <ais523> not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition
23:26:53 <kmc> shachaf: where did you say that?
23:28:23 <shachaf> elliott__: ski isn't a waste of time!
23:28:28 <kmc> who's nand`
23:28:31 <elliott__> shachaf: I mean, he seems to waste a lot of time explaining things meticulously to people it'll be lost on.
23:28:41 <elliott__> kmc: Someone who was probably new to #haskell when you left, or perhaps not even there left.
23:28:59 <kmc> i don't remember them
23:29:02 <kmc> reading logs
23:29:10 <kmc> they remind me a lot of me in #haskell some years ago
23:29:22 <kmc> down to gratuitous use of non-ascii
23:29:27 <kmc> maybe i was also wasting a lot of time
23:29:36 <elliott__> You know the people who develop a decent enough understanding of Haskell to write programs in it and then get frozen at that level of knowledge forever? And then start explaining things badly?
23:29:36 <kmc> i certainly explained things meticulously to people it was lost on
23:29:50 <elliott__> And arguing with people over language mechanics they don't know enough about to argue on the topic of competently?
23:29:58 <kmc> they get frozen because they don't actually have anything they want to *do* with haskell
23:30:05 <elliott__> (Hey, did you know Google indexes the logs of this channel?)
23:30:07 <shachaf> elliott__: Am I one of those?
23:30:21 <elliott__> shachaf: No, you're annoying in more creative ways!
23:30:31 <shachaf> elliott__: Are you one of those?
23:30:59 <elliott__> <kmc> down to gratuitous use of non-ascii
23:31:05 <elliott__> This irritates me more than it should.
23:31:13 <olsner> hmm, I think I'm one of those... except I don't explain stuff to people in #haskell
23:31:18 <kmc> i only noticed because chrome fails to detect the encoding on logs
23:31:23 <kmc> nand` uses smart quotes
23:31:26 <elliott__> I mean, Unicode quotes and aposrtophes are obviously more correct.
23:31:34 <elliott__> But I can't help but perceive their use in casual conversation on IRC as posturing.
23:31:45 <kmc> yeah i don't know
23:31:52 <elliott__> I wonder if differentiated opening and closing quotes will live for much longer?
23:31:53 <shachaf> elliott__: How do you feel about «»?
23:31:55 <kmc> anyway yeah
23:32:01 <elliott__> They're not on anybody's keyboards.
23:32:05 <elliott__> Wikipedia doesn't use them, by policy.
23:32:08 <kmc> people who "learn haskell" but don't ever use it get stuck at a particular level
23:32:11 <olsner> maybe he composes his messages in Word and pastes them into mIRC
23:32:13 <kmc> i'm not sure if i'm one of these people or not
23:32:21 <kmc> i've used haskell in a few cases where "use haskell" was not a design goal
23:32:23 <kmc> but not that many
23:32:30 <elliott__> I guess typesetters take longer to forget about these things than everyone else.
23:32:33 <kmc> nothing really big or production grade
23:32:50 <shachaf> elliott__: I think you dislike nand` for whatever reason and that makes you find everything else they say annoying.
23:32:50 <kmc> some small scripts, and some research-quality / assignment-quality code
23:33:00 <shachaf> And if $PERSON_YOU_LIKE used the quotes, you wouldn't care.
23:33:15 <kmc> is it less annoying than ``ski-quotes'' ?
23:33:32 <shachaf> My point is rationalization.
23:33:57 <elliott__> I like ski's style. He's very meticulous about quoting and not breaking use-mention and so on.
23:34:27 <kmc> shachaf: it looks like nobody responded to your comment, either
23:34:30 <elliott__> Talking about people in the third-person is weird.
23:34:31 <kmc> perhaps they thought you were joking
23:34:37 <elliott__> Let's talk about ski in the first person instead.
23:34:45 <kmc> that it's a stupid waste of time
23:34:53 <shachaf> kmc: I was just generally annoyed.
23:35:01 <kmc> i really wish i could go to boston haskell this month
23:35:05 <shachaf> I should probably leave #haskell before getting to the point of making those comments.
23:35:06 <kmc> but i will be in the wrong continent
23:35:12 <kmc> shachaf: worked for me
23:35:20 <olsner> elliott__: I think talking about me in first person could get confusing
23:35:21 <shachaf> kmc: Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Boston will be in the wrong continent.
23:35:22 <kmc> i still like the people there, and the language
23:35:27 <kmc> if i stayed longer then maybe i would not
23:35:51 <kmc> shachaf: perhaps!
23:35:57 <kmc> i could go to Boston, UK and see if there's some Haskell there
23:36:15 <kmc> it is... not a very significant town
23:36:26 <shachaf> That's not even a continent.
23:36:30 <elliott__> olsner: Yes. elliott__ should stop talking about me.
23:36:35 <shachaf> More like "I'm not on any continent"
23:36:43 <kmc> and pretty far away
23:37:00 <shachaf> kmc: There's a lot of Haskell in the area of Bellingham, WA.
23:37:51 <kmc> i'm in England right now!
23:38:07 <elliott__> (Wait, is nand` really arguing for putStrLn :: IO Void that returns undefined?)
23:38:07 <shachaf> kmc: Going to visit elliott?
23:38:14 <kmc> where's elliott__?
23:38:20 <kmc> whelliott?
23:38:24 <olsner> elliott__: sounds like it
23:38:59 <olsner> is that a different Newcastle?
23:39:19 <shachaf> kmc: I read _Cat's Cradle_ recently.
23:39:56 * shachaf is currently in a town with ~9000 people.
23:42:09 <kmc> I'm in Slough (plz. hold the throwing of rotten vegetables until the end)
23:42:21 <shachaf> kmc: I think you mean "pls.".
23:42:30 <shachaf> That's the British abbrvtn.
23:43:07 * elliott__ wonders how kmc ended up in Slough.
23:43:15 <kmc> friends of a friend live in slough
23:43:24 <kmc> so it's free accommodation in a place which is close enough to london
23:43:29 <kmc> (30 min train ride, comes every 30 minutes)
23:43:40 <kmc> but actually i slept in cambridge last night
23:43:49 <elliott__> I've never been to London. But I'm pretty sure it's awful.
23:43:57 <kmc> shachaf: yes, or rather train bus plane bus bus boat train train train train
23:44:38 <kmc> plane boston → dublin, ferry dublin → holyhead, trains holyhead → slough
23:44:49 <kmc> and some local transport along the way
23:45:33 <shachaf> kmc: I took a ferry the other day!
23:47:41 <kmc> you should hitchhike to alaska
23:47:43 <kmc> to one-up lexande
23:47:52 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe that's Bellingham.
23:48:07 <shachaf> Whence whither did lexande hitchhike?
23:48:17 <elliott__> kmc: You should go visit Taneb. He's probably more interesting than me.
23:48:31 <shachaf> elliott__: You should come visit California!
23:48:36 <shachaf> Did you know kmc used to live there?
23:48:44 * elliott__ wonders if it'd be pointlessly derailing to tell nand` that's not what "non-total" really means.
23:49:18 <kmc> shachaf: he went from Cambridge, MA to St John's, Newfoundland (i.e. the End of the Earth)
23:49:31 <kmc> elliott__: you can't derail a train that's already fallen off the bridge into the river
23:49:46 * kmc used to live in California
23:49:55 <kmc> but I never lived in the parts of California which I would want to live in now
23:50:09 <shachaf> elliott__: Yes, don't visit Pasadena.
23:50:17 <kmc> pasadena is... fine
23:50:27 <kmc> but there's little reason to visit as a generic tourist thing
23:50:43 <kmc> if you know someone there or have business at caltech, then go, it's fairly nice
23:51:02 <kmc> Pasadena is a decent city of middling size, if you ignore that it's glommed onto LA
23:51:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes, JPL is out there, although technically it's in the next city over
23:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I only really know of it from the twist ending to the musical version of the War of the Worlds.
23:51:25 <kmc> La Cañada Flintridge
23:51:59 <kmc> it's far enough that the summer students who had jobs at JPL had to wake up at butt o' clock to get a bus out there
23:54:31 <kmc> shachaf: I think I don't really like the Bay Area, only SF
23:54:59 <kmc> Berkeley and some of the other bits right around SF are all right
23:55:04 <kmc> but South Bay is super sprawly
23:55:13 <shachaf> "Bay area man prefers science fiction to bay area"
23:55:19 <kmc> it's nice-looking sprawl full of people i like, but...
23:55:52 <shachaf> Didn't you say how nice-looking sprawls are even worse than regular sprawls?
23:56:10 <shachaf> Because they contribute to the downfall of American society.
23:56:10 <kmc> well i don't know if south bay counts in that
23:56:16 <kmc> they all do to varying degrees
23:56:22 <kmc> i think i meant a different sort of nice looking sprawl
23:56:32 <kmc> south bay seems to at least have apartment housing at similar density to pasadena
23:56:35 * shachaf isn't an expert in sprawls.
23:56:39 <kmc> mixed in with the detached houses
23:57:00 <kmc> i was talking about rural-burbia places where everyone has a huge custom house on a nice landscaped plot set way back from the road
23:57:24 <kmc> they look nice but are even more shackled to cars than south bay type stuff
23:57:52 <kmc> though some of these people also make part time money from actual agricultural activites
23:58:22 <kmc> it seems to be a thing in new hampshire and vermont that, you live in vaguely suburban area and commute to work, but you also have a few cows and chickens, partly as pets, but you can sell the milk and eggs as well
23:58:26 <kmc> or something
23:58:39 <kmc> i met someone who had 3 geese, 2 chickens, and 2 dogs as pets
23:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> man did you know i used to think new england was a state
23:58:45 <kmc> one of those dogs was probably the largest dog i have ever seen
23:58:52 <kmc> it was bigger than many bears
23:58:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :)
23:59:07 <kmc> there is... little reason for non-USians to distinguish the different states of New England
23:59:13 <kmc> they're all small and close together
23:59:31 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: did you also think New Scotland and New Wales were states?
23:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> and i got really confused when i was looking at a map and i was like "where's new england, isn't it near new hampshire"
23:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> "it would make sense, old hampshire is in old england"
23:59:57 <kmc> New Scotland is a state in France