00:01:11 <VonSmashington> and i programmed it in a high level automation language, so I can't change anything like variable size.
00:06:10 <ais523> ooh, awesome whatever-the-speech-version-of-a-typo-is on the news: "micro-social blogging site Twitter"
00:08:24 <soundnfury> I suppose next you'll be saying you didn't write your own HTTP server either!
00:08:41 <kallisti> nope. I use nginx. which wasn't even intended to be an HTTP server originally
00:11:22 <kallisti> anytime there;s a thunderstorm I lose my connection.
00:11:33 <olsner> IP over horse shit? that one's new I think
00:13:10 <kmc> we went to a bar which has beer taps at each table
00:13:16 <kmc> and each tap has a meter, to bill you
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00:13:23 <kmc> but they also report quantity to TVs around the bar, so you can see who drank the most beer
00:13:33 <kmc> and on wednesdays you get 20% off if you drink the most beer in the bar
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00:13:41 <kallisti> yes and it DOESN'T WORK AT ALL OH GOD.
00:13:41 <kallisti> also if I respond to something like several minutes after it was said it's because I lost my connection.
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00:17:29 <kallisti> I think the quality of my code from this point on is going to regrade severely.
00:18:05 <kallisti> due to inevitably encroaching alchoholism.
00:20:54 <olsner> regrading goes both ways
00:22:08 <kallisti> well I think right now I'm somewhere near the Ballmer Peak.
00:22:34 <olsner> teetering on the brink of total failure then?
00:22:57 <olsner> just jump right in! :>
00:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I should strike you for that but it's not forced, soundnfury take note.
00:23:25 <kallisti> what is this #esoteric baseball system
00:23:27 <olsner> the Phantom_Striker strikes again!
00:23:38 <kallisti> I have to deal with baseball-inspired legal systems in real life.
00:23:42 <kallisti> I'd rather not deal with them in IRC too.
00:23:58 <olsner> I think if you get a ball thrown near but not at you, you strike if you fail to strike it
00:24:15 <kallisti> basically around your upper body.
00:24:24 <kallisti> that counts as the strike zone.
00:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Also if it starts raining you need a team of statisticians pronto.
00:24:59 * kallisti is American therefore expert baseball expert.
00:25:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott is English, he must know how england baseball works
00:25:49 <olsner> england baseball? england only does tea and bad plumbing
00:25:52 <kallisti> I didn't even know that was a thing.
00:26:45 <Phantom_Hoover> The funny part is that they totally do suck at cricket.
00:26:58 <kallisti> do they throw baseballs at speeds that could potentially kill small children and animals?
00:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> And everything else, although they suck less at football than Scotland AFAIK.
00:28:02 <olsner> I think they just roll the balls on the ground (and they even call it bowling)
00:28:24 <kallisti> I refuse to believe that another country has a superior baseball league.
00:29:05 <kallisti> but their league is not as good.
00:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You might have some serious international sporting competition one of these days.
00:29:29 <kallisti> I only know these things because some of my friends are baseball fans.
00:29:33 <kallisti> but otherwise I don't give a shit.
00:30:00 <olsner> ... says the most expert baseball expert in the channel
00:30:28 <kallisti> you'll just have to deal with it.
00:31:27 <kallisti> this interpreter for dogless is incredibly simple.
00:31:34 <kallisti> but I don't know if I want to keep that name.
00:32:01 <kallisti> what's a good name for a language that's based very roughly off of dupdog but kind of more like ///
00:33:05 <kallisti> the original name was "godless"
00:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I dunno if you remember when elliott made that bot to tell Sgeo_ to shut up about things like ActiveWorlds, Scala and sex?
00:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And then oerjan banned it for being totally not cool man.
00:35:03 <kallisti> but I don't remember anything named updog.
00:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And then elliott brought in another totally unrelated bot named updog which did nothing but say "what's updog" whenever its name was mentioned.
00:36:04 <olsner> ... and that bot became shachaf
00:44:24 <kallisti> we are all bots on inside. :_(
00:45:58 <kallisti> I like how perl doesn't have a "print to stdout with newline" operator until version 5.10.
00:46:24 <kallisti> and you need to explicitly declare what version you're using to get it.
00:46:27 <kallisti> because backwards compatability.
00:49:07 <kallisti> so I'm pretty sure dogless is turing complete now
00:49:18 <kallisti> because I added some metacommands that affect the scope of the next command
01:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Sgeo Hey you know about Creatures right? How the hell is http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Albia#Geography_and_Travel meant to work?
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01:39:53 <kallisti> perl is the weirdest thing ever.
01:40:45 <kallisti> its import statement is resolved at compile-time but you can use it literally anywhere.
01:42:58 <olsner> in python import statements have side-effects instead
01:43:08 <olsner> import launch_missiles
01:44:01 <kallisti> the way it works in perl is that "use whatever LIST" is equivalent to; BEGIN {require whatever; whatever->import(LIST)}
01:44:22 <kallisti> BEGIN being a block that's executed before compilation of the rest of the code.
01:44:36 <kallisti> I think in FIFO order. I don't remember. it rarely matters.
01:45:04 <olsner> oh, right, like in awk
01:45:27 <zzo38> Do you have any single file C program emulating 6502 CPU which is public domain?
01:47:05 <kallisti> olsner: the import method is then used to explicitly export things. if you make your package a subclass of Exporter then you can define how symbols are exported.
01:47:18 <kallisti> or you could write your own import method and do it by hand.
01:48:53 <kallisti> the latter case is used to make "pragma" modules. aka modules that act as compile-time pragmas similar to "use strict".
01:51:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, the creatures live on the edge of a disc
01:52:44 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, good question, no idea
01:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Also is the edge of the world just a mind-bogglingly steep cliff?
01:54:10 <Sgeo_> Yes, although the edges are only in the forwards/backwards direction
01:54:40 <Sgeo_> There's a reason for all of this: Gameplay occurs in a 2d world that wraps around left/right
01:56:52 <Sgeo_> Looking for a screenshot
01:57:44 <Sgeo_> http://i1-linux.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Creatures-Internet-Edition_1.jpg note that this screeenshot does NOT depict Albia and this world does NOT wrap around, but gameplay in the games that show Albia is similar
01:58:21 <Sgeo_> Although that shows one cramped area of the C3 world I guess
01:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (Why didn't they put the world in the middle dammit, that makes much more sense.
01:59:20 <Sgeo_> How do you explain that creatures don't leave the screen?
01:59:50 <zzo38> Actually they don't need public domain as long as it is Free software and not affecting the license of the rest of the project.
01:59:57 <Sgeo_> Imagine the world is a on the edge of a coin
02:01:45 <Sgeo_> Not sure what a Halo-type arrangement is
02:02:10 <Sgeo_> And it's more sane then hypertaco (although the universe where that's used is not entirely intended to be sane)
02:02:51 <zzo38> I found something tat might help
02:04:30 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, in Triangle and Robert
02:04:55 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I fixed the extrernal links on that page
02:05:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "World Shapes: Triangle and Robert's world is not a sphere, but a four-dimensional hypertaco.
02:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that going to be identical to a normal sphere for those living inside it?
02:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Flatlanders living on a taco would see it as a circle, after all.
02:06:08 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, no idea
02:06:27 <Sgeo_> I didn't even try to understand it, to be honest
02:08:26 * Sgeo_ bluhs at D's non-hygienic string mixins
02:24:38 <kallisti> Sgeo_: what does non-hygienic mean in this context
02:25:35 <Sgeo_> It means local variables used in the string mixin can get confused with names you pass into it
02:25:49 <Sgeo_> What else could it mean?
02:26:41 <kallisti> string mixins usually don't have the property of being hygienic or not.
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02:27:23 <kallisti> whereas a macro or a string mixin that implements variable interpolation does.
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03:03:20 <Sgeo_> Madoka-Kaname, you could possibly make something that looks but isn't like a hygienic string mixin?
03:10:05 <kallisti> $ echo 'Hello, World!' | scripts/Dogless.pl
03:10:19 <soundnfury> almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a mixin
03:10:41 <kallisti> the hello world program also has the nice perk of being a quine.
03:11:29 <kallisti> it also doubles as cat, I guess. since the only real input is the program source.
03:12:25 <kallisti> maybe I should add a notion of input.
03:16:30 <kallisti> Sgeo_: maybe I don't know what "string mixin" means in this context.
03:16:43 <kallisti> to me a mixin is a class that you "drop into" another class.
03:17:16 <Sgeo_> kallisti, in D, a string mixin is a function that makes a string at compiletime and then that becomes code
03:17:51 <Sgeo_> http://dlang.org/mixin.html
03:20:00 <kallisti> just never use local variables, or give them terrible names.
03:22:52 <Sgeo_> "Repeated imports of the same file are of no import."
03:24:18 <kallisti> does D automatically return the last statement of a function?
03:24:29 <kallisti> or do you just assign to a constant char[] with the same name as the template
03:24:37 <kallisti> template GenStruct(char[] Name, char[] M1)
03:24:37 <kallisti> { const char[] GenStruct = "struct " ~ Name ~ "{ int " ~ M1 ~ "; }";
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03:26:59 <shachaf> Does the documentation mention the part where std.file.read() is broken?
03:36:38 <Sgeo_> shachaf, how is it broken?
03:37:50 <shachaf> Sgeo_: The buffering code is buggy.
03:37:55 <shachaf> Try reading a file from /proc/
03:38:28 <kallisti> how do I do italics in wiki markup again
03:38:51 <shachaf> '''''''''''word'''''''''''
03:39:49 <elliott> I think Walter Bright could probably make a good language but D isn't it.
03:40:12 <kallisti> like many improvements to the C language, it shows a lot of promise but isn't quite there..
03:40:20 <elliott> Rust is probably better than D.
03:40:34 <kallisti> Rust is still being changed quite a lot.
03:40:39 <kallisti> but what it's got so far is pretty solid.
03:44:34 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with D?
03:45:17 <elliott> it is a mess and half-broken
03:45:23 <elliott> and that's just the language
03:45:29 <elliott> the toolchains are ten messes unto themselves
03:50:56 <kallisti> why can I never remember how to do backslash escapes in regex...
03:51:27 <kallisti> "match this, unless it's preceded by an odd number of backslashes"
03:54:07 <Sgeo_> elliott, what do you think about Dylan?
03:54:26 <kallisti> he's a good musician, but makes for a lousy programming language.
03:56:51 <elliott> so probably i like the language more
03:56:55 <elliott> i don't know all that much about it
03:57:05 <elliott> it is not like anyone uses it or it is really viable in any way though
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03:58:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, apparently it's going through a revival. At too slow a place to really count as a revival
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04:02:00 <Sgeo_> Would be nice if I could even get it working without needing to use a VM
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04:12:13 <Sgeo_> You know what we need? FreeDylan
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04:19:15 <Sgeo_> I'm looking at 3d printing stuff for some reason, and thought of a good use: iceblocks pieces
04:19:51 <Sgeo_> ...or that's not what they're called
04:19:53 <Sgeo_> What are they called
04:20:00 <Sgeo_> Martian Chess is a whatever game
04:20:19 <Sgeo_> Icehouse, there we go
04:22:58 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icehouse_pieces
04:23:40 <Sgeo_> o.O http://www.crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=PY
04:23:43 <zzo38> There are many possible games using these icehouse pieces
04:23:58 <zzo38> Including some game that uses tarot cards to make a board that the pieces are placed on
04:25:45 <Sgeo_> Some games require multicolored icehouse pieces
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04:46:55 <zzo38> The game I mentioned require different color for each player, as well as all the sizes, and can be stand up or pointing to another card
05:06:22 <elliott> I can sympathize with the way you felt. I'm a staunch young-earth creationist and it bothered me a bit that I might use an email client like "Evolution." So for the first two years or so that I used Linux, I used Thunderbird. Recently, I noticed that the email search is a lot faster on Evolution (I have >14,000 emails to search). So I made the switch to Evolution.
05:06:22 <elliott> I do wish there was a way to name the application differently (in the title bar). But like the previous poster said, we got other things to worry about (~5 billion souls on their way to hell).
05:06:36 <elliott> thanks for the positive attitude, tak
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05:17:27 <kallisti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dogless
05:17:31 <kallisti> look at the damage I have done.
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05:32:17 <kallisti> Please let me know if anything is worded confusingly
05:42:15 <Sgeo_> I once felt uncomfortable with NetHack's #pray because I felt like it was too close to worshipping other gods.
05:43:32 <kallisti> which will eventually converge to an infinite string of dots.
05:43:37 <kallisti> or... diverge? I don't even know.
05:43:57 <Sgeo_> This was when I was younger
05:44:00 <Sgeo_> And still believed in God
05:44:20 <Sgeo_> Funny, becoming an RL atheist made me more comfortable with violating atheist conduct in NetHack
05:44:20 <kallisti> elliott: plz berate dogless. inlude that it needlessly overcomplicates dupdogs minimal (read: stupid) design.
05:46:12 <kallisti> I've never had an issue making distinctions between in character and out of character.
05:46:48 <Sgeo_> I knew the distinction, it still made me uncomfortable
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06:45:10 <elliott> kallisti: dogless looks dumb
06:46:28 <kallisti> I'm not attempting to revolutionize computing with my esolangs, here..
06:47:37 <kallisti> I request a strawman, now please let me defend myself against it.
06:48:10 <kallisti> strawmen are vicious predators after all.
06:48:55 <kallisti> also I'm not entirely sure what the instruction >~ or >>~ or <~ or ><~ etc is supposed to do
06:49:08 <kallisti> so the semantics of that might change.
06:51:29 <kallisti> abc|>~def|ghi -> abc|def|ghi|def|~ghi
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07:25:20 <zzo38> Can you play snooker?
07:28:40 <zzo38> Is there a rule in snooker that says you must try hard to hit the ball?
07:29:01 <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:31 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:42 <HackEgo> 854) <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:45 <kallisti> how is that even remotely enforceable
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07:37:51 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't know.
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08:07:19 <Madoka-Kaname> http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-randombattle45434
08:07:43 <Madoka-Kaname> This the first time I've wanted to curse the RNG algorithm outside of Nethack.
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11:21:03 <Sgeo_> elliott, Phantom_Hoover monqy tswett UPDATE
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11:24:20 <elliott> nortti: Sgeo_ lets us know when monqy gets marginally less terrible
11:31:06 * itidus21 parses everything that got posted since phantom joined
11:31:25 <itidus21> aha. suburban jungle. thats what i was missing
11:33:45 <itidus21> "Rest in Peace, Suburban Jungle - The Bad Webcomics Wiki"
11:34:10 <Sgeo_> That's not even the name
11:34:17 <Sgeo_> It's Sburban, not Suburban
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11:42:54 <itidus21> perhaps whoever made that is a macguyver of art, perhaps
12:31:29 <Sgeo_> itidus21, just go to http://www.mspaintadventures.com and start reading
12:31:46 <itidus21> yeah this stuff might infact be too weird for me
12:36:50 <itidus21> i think part of whats creepy about it is the uncanny way it's based on real life types of events
12:38:47 <itidus21> no need for me to expound, i'm clearly preaching to the choir
12:41:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe itidus21 is talking about the fact that meteors are a threat IRL?
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12:49:22 <nooga> what the fuck I've just read? -> http://notch.tumblr.com/post/20056289891/start-classified-transmission
12:49:44 <Taneb> From the URL looks 0x10c-y
12:50:16 <Taneb> Yeah, that's 0x10c
12:50:58 <olsner> nooga: uh oh, they say that information is secret
12:51:44 <Taneb> Mojang's third or fourth game
12:51:53 <Taneb> (depends if you count Cobalt or not)
12:52:58 <nooga> but it has a good side
12:53:20 <Taneb> It's set in an alternate history where the space race led to cryogenics
12:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, I'm not well-versed in CPU architecture, is it bad?
12:53:38 <Taneb> And an endiness mistake led to some people being frozen for trillions of years
12:53:40 <nooga> still better than x86
12:54:24 <nooga> but programming spaceships in assembler is the stupidiest thing i've ever heard
12:54:46 <kmc> x86 assembly is not that bad
12:54:54 <kmc> especially for writing
12:54:55 <Taneb> nooga, it just gives you the CPU and assembler. The community's making a C compiler and other stuff
12:55:00 <olsner> nooga: worked for the AGC! (I think)
12:55:14 <kmc> programming spaceships in assembler is how we got to the moon
12:55:30 <olsner> I guess it's further proof for the moon landing hoax
12:55:35 <Taneb> I thought we just hit eachother with slide rules?
12:55:52 <nooga> Taneb: really? the community is already making a C compiler?
12:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Assembler seems like a needless extravagance, considering the computers on Apollo 11 had like 1300 NOR gates in total.
12:56:01 <Taneb> nooga, have been for a few months
12:56:15 <olsner> they're not done yet? how hard can it be
12:56:18 <Taneb> http://dcputoolcha.in/
12:58:08 <nooga> I thought about a massively multiplayer online RTS
12:58:13 <Taneb> Not sure if there's enough ram, Phantom_Hoover
12:58:23 <olsner> should be easy to port after they fix ghc to be properly cross-compilery
12:58:24 <Taneb> nooga, will the guns have CPUs?
12:58:27 <nooga> and the main idea would be that there are no units
12:58:37 <olsner> I mean, make a dcpu-targeting cross compiler
12:58:55 <nooga> that would be programmable and multi-purpose
12:59:20 <Taneb> Sorry, mixed up RTS with FPS
12:59:22 <nooga> and it's up to players to program their units to network with others
12:59:45 <olsner> porting the RTS might be a different question though
12:59:49 <nooga> and they could share or trade programs
12:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> An FPS with programmable guns would be the best thing.
12:59:56 <kmc> x86 has its ugly bits but compared to the overall difficulty of programming in assembly it's not a big deal
13:00:03 <kmc> other architectures have quirks
13:00:14 <kmc> it's just a dumb hipster thing to talk about how awful x86 is all the time
13:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you could program it to I dunno, shoot bullets... to the left?
13:00:23 <kmc> remember that RISC is explicitly designed to make writing assembly by hand *harder*
13:00:31 <nooga> kmc: okay okay, i was joking abut x86
13:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, dude the only reliable way to get it into protected mode is to use the keyboard controller.
13:01:18 <kmc> you have engaged rant mode
13:01:26 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: a) that's a property of the PC platform, not x86
13:01:36 <kmc> b) i was talking about "normal" code not weird platform specific OS code
13:01:43 <kmc> which is pretty ugly on most systems
13:02:09 <olsner> setting up the A20 line is, like, two instructions of the whole thing
13:02:39 <kmc> RISC processors offload a *massive* amount of weirdness to the OS
13:03:05 <kmc> soft-fill TLBs, incoherent caches, etc
13:03:23 <kmc> on ARM Linux userspace can't do self-modifying code without a system call :(
13:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so um wait what does the programming aspect in 0x10c actually handle?
13:04:59 <Taneb> Controlling the space ship, weapons, shields etc
13:05:13 <Taneb> Somebody made Tetris, iirc
13:05:47 <Taneb> You can just use other people's code
13:06:03 <Taneb> It recommends sharing?
13:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see it working if the code consists of a layer between the player and the ship, so tweaking it is powerful but not vital.
13:06:20 <olsner> I think the reason x86 doesn't do e.g. incoherent caches is that it tries to preserve compatability with code made at the time a cache didn't exist
13:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But if having the better code is most of the game it'll just alienate most of the potential audience.
13:07:09 <kmc> the potential audience is ultra nerds
13:07:15 <olsner> a lot of that is actually pretty "nice" ... it requires the cpu to guarantee a lot of convenient stuff it wouldn't bother with otherwise
13:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, not even that, it's the subset of ultra nerds who enjoy programming games.
13:08:07 <kmc> but they're all creaming their pants right now
13:08:21 <kmc> so maybe notch cares more about making 1000 people do that
13:08:28 <kmc> rather than making a fun toy for 1,000,000 people
13:08:30 <kmc> which he already did
13:09:26 <olsner> but they have actually relaxed some parts of that... for example, self-modifying code is not supposed to be reliable in multi-cpu systems on x86
13:10:14 <olsner> if that means doing what I'm doing then that is what I'm doing
13:13:00 <Taneb> It means talking to the audience to explain your character's innermost thoughts, feelings and motives
13:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Urk, the 0x10c website doesn't say anything much about the way the gameplay works.
13:13:25 <Taneb> It's in really early development
13:13:38 <Taneb> It's not even at "Cave Game" state yet
13:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, but I'd hope he'd have some idea of the fundamentals of the gameplay.
13:14:17 <Taneb> It's all very hush-hush
13:14:30 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, sounds like that doesn't really apply here... unless I was describing the inner thoughts of the x86 architecture or something?
13:14:47 <Taneb> I think Phantom_Hoover was thinking about monologueing
13:22:50 <nooga> people are writing OSes for DCPU
13:23:26 <olsner> people are writing OSes for x86 too!
13:24:15 <Taneb> People are writing OSes for brainfuck
13:24:22 <Taneb> Well, at least person tried to write
13:25:32 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Urk, the 0x10c website doesn't say anything much about the way the gameplay works. <-- IIRC notch spoke a bit about that on twitter when 0x10c was first announced
13:26:18 <Vorpal> <olsner> I think the reason x86 doesn't do e.g. incoherent caches is that it tries to preserve compatability with code made at the time a cache didn't exist <-- I thought it did for iL1?
13:26:22 <nooga> i will write forth like language for dcpu
13:28:26 <Vorpal> if 0x10c takes off I assume there will be ready-made OSes for it so less nerdy people don't have to bother with programming for it
13:29:02 <Vorpal> I don't think I'm going to write DCPU asm, but forth? sure, why not
13:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But will the game still be fun if you're not interested in the programming?
13:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> That's what I'm curious about, and there's not much information there.
13:29:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway one interesting aspect of 0x10c is that you could do some really interesting stuff for computer controlled turrets or such potentially
13:30:25 <Vorpal> you don't have to live with a sucky AI any more, you could improve it for your ship
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13:31:27 <Vorpal> also even if you are interested in programming, you might not want to program in a game
13:31:43 <Vorpal> for example: personally I tend to play games when I'm exhausted from programming
13:32:08 <nortti> does DCPU have any specified I/O systems? what about clock interrupt?
13:33:29 <Taneb> nortti, yes, and I think yes
13:33:39 <Taneb> #0x10c-dev is the place for this
13:33:40 <Vorpal> hm my phone has more video capturing devices under /dev than it has cameras...
13:34:25 <nortti> big brother is watching you!
13:34:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, reading stuff from /sys indicates a few of them are virtual devices, whatever that is
13:35:15 <olsner> the touch screen is actually exposed from the kernel as a video device
13:35:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nortti http://sprunge.us/ZfbV
13:36:01 <Vorpal> I believe video0/video1 (that is 81:0 and 81:1) are the actual cameras based on running strings on a relevant user space library
13:36:26 <Vorpal> olsner, really? Or are you just making that up?
13:36:49 <Vorpal> olsner, yes to which question? :P
13:36:51 <nooga> http://aws.johnmccann.me/
13:38:24 <Vorpal> hm some of those might be output devices, since surfaceflinger has video2 and video16 open
13:38:41 <Vorpal> (surfaceflinger is the android window compositor thingy)
13:39:33 <Vorpal> video11, video12 and video20 are not open anywhere.
13:43:09 <Vorpal> well, I guess I either want video0 or video1 then... Now, how to monitor the device...
13:43:30 <Vorpal> hm how would I transparently monitor access to a device file on linux?
13:46:48 <Vorpal> huh, strace reports I/O errors
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13:52:36 <Vorpal> hm video0 is the primary camera, presumably video1 is the user-facing camera then
13:52:58 <Vorpal> and the driver is s3c-fimc
13:53:18 <nooga> https://github.com/dsmvwld/CamelForth-16
13:53:23 <nooga> why am I always late
13:53:37 <Vorpal> nooga, hey you could help me programming instead
13:53:42 <Ngevd> nooga, write a Cobol compiler
13:53:53 <Vorpal> nooga, it is more of a reverse engineer job though
13:54:56 <Vorpal> I want to get raw data from the Samsung Galaxy S3 camera. :)
13:55:33 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: no. I'm not rms. why?
13:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A while ago someone quoted RMS saying phones are tools of the government to spy on you.
13:57:03 <nortti> oh that. I own a phone. it is old nokia bought from second hand store with cash
13:57:20 <nooga> nortti: doesn't matter
13:57:35 <nooga> you shold destroy the phone after every call to be 100% sure
13:58:51 <Vorpal> good thing I did tar -tf first...
13:59:44 <Vorpal> nortti, a tar file that gives you multiple files and/or directories when doing tar -xf. Instead of creating one directory and placing all those files inside
14:00:17 <Vorpal> nortti, so if you did tar -zcf ../kernel.tar.gz . for example
14:00:36 <Vorpal> why did you ask what a tarbomb was then
14:00:44 <nortti> I meant what file was tarbomb
14:01:01 <Vorpal> samsung's kernel code release
14:02:20 <Vorpal> why didn't they include a .config
14:04:26 <Vorpal> aha, found the relevant kernel headers. Now to figure out if getting raw data is possible
14:04:32 <Vorpal> I have no sodding clue
14:06:37 <Vorpal> wait, does v4l present an unified interface to the user space?
14:08:48 <Vorpal> wait what, why does the phone platform include CUPS4j drivers. Yes that seems to be a library for java to talk to CUPS
14:10:36 <olsner> for printing, obviously
14:10:46 <Vorpal> olsner, yes but why printer support on a phone
14:14:40 <olsner> googling suggests that people do indeed want and/or use printing on phones
14:14:53 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
14:15:19 <Vorpal> also there is some jpeg stuff in the kernel driver for it
14:17:35 <Vorpal> conclusion so far: badly documented code, need data sheet for device to understand it
14:23:57 <Vorpal> whoever wrote the Kconfig for this thing at Samsung sucked at English.
14:26:33 <Taneb> I'm thinking of Nokia, aren't I?
14:30:40 <Taneb> Is that the Finnish one?
14:31:20 <olsner> yes, they make tires, rubber boots and mobile phones
14:33:14 <nortti> olsner: tires and rubber boots are no longer made by nokia. they are produces by nokian
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14:35:42 <nortti> they also produced computers, telephones and telephone switches
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15:51:09 <fizzie> Hello from the Finnishland.
15:51:24 <Taneb> Hello from the Not Finnishland
15:53:07 <kmc> hello from thessaloniki
15:53:17 <Taneb> Evidently dubstep is the new punk?
15:53:42 <kmc> in what way
15:53:49 <olsner> how long ago was punk the new punk?
15:54:21 <kallisti> Taneb: dubstep is not the new punk.
15:54:39 <Taneb> In terms of the opinion of the world about it
15:54:40 <olsner> new dubstep? that's the old dubstep?
15:55:52 <Taneb> The opinion being near universal contempt
15:56:26 <Taneb> I like pretty much every kind of music except for the Black Eyed Peas
15:56:35 <kmc> punk rock was enormously popular
15:56:35 <Taneb> I cannot STAND the Black Eyed Peas
15:56:40 <kmc> and influential
15:56:47 <kmc> i think you probably know nothing about music
15:56:52 <kmc> why don't you argue with itidus21 about it
15:56:53 <Taneb> kmc, punk bands got attacked by people with knives
15:57:08 <kmc> right some people hate it violently
15:57:11 <Taneb> PEOPLE WITH KNIVES
15:57:12 <kmc> like anything
15:57:18 <kmc> football fans get attacked thus
15:57:24 <kmc> from which i conclude that the world hates football
15:57:56 <kallisti> I only listen to free baroquecore nintendostep garage folk
15:58:23 <Taneb> quoth the wiki: "Violent attacks on punk fans were on the rise."
15:59:15 <Taneb> I'm probably wrong
15:59:43 <kmc> this proves nothing
15:59:53 <kmc> the proportion of people who will violently attack anything is so small
16:00:05 <kmc> that you cannot generalize to the whole world
16:00:22 <kmc> this is possibly the most intellectually bankrupt argument i've heard in some time
16:00:49 <kmc> i suppose you think the beatles were universally hated too
16:00:57 <Taneb> I'm accepting I'm wrong now
16:01:05 <kmc> because john lennon got shot by one crazy person
16:01:28 <kmc> no but i want to
16:01:30 <kmc> in this case
16:01:37 * kmc attacks Taneb with knives
16:01:54 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: jesus christ you don't have to be so LOUD about your distaste of his HOSTILITY.
16:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Because I want to" is not really a good enough reason.
16:02:04 * Taneb parries with poorly understood IRC features
16:02:07 <kmc> i'm offended by the fact that you're offended
16:02:47 <kmc> (not really)
16:02:49 <kmc> anyway i'm done
16:02:53 <olsner> this is incredibly offensive, we need to just close the channel entirely now
16:03:00 <olsner> three strikes for everyone
16:03:43 <Taneb> On another note, I think Suetonius's chapter on the reign of Caligula is kinda like a sort of not really dubstep song
16:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I once had a plan to shut up the crickets someone in my biology class was using for an experiment with dubstep.
16:06:09 <olsner> now enjoy some dubstep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sNxRji1STg
16:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Dubstep crickets would possibly have been even worse than the crickets he was using.
16:07:35 <kmc> greece has about 20x as much anti-fascist graffiti as fascist graffiti
16:07:39 <kmc> i suppose this is a good thing
16:08:02 <kmc> allegedly 50% of the cops voted for the neo nazi party in the most recent election
16:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ah but the government have declared that all public surfaces are allowed to have fascist slogans written on them
16:09:15 <kmc> well i can't read greek so i wouldn't really know
16:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that was a joke that fell apart due to obtuse grammar.
16:09:27 <kmc> every golden dawn logo i recognized was crossed out
16:09:53 <Taneb> I remember last time I went to France, I saw some Occitan independence graffiti
16:10:25 <kmc> the party with the most recognizable (to illiterate me) street presence is the communist party ΚΚΕ
16:10:40 <kmc> followed by anarchists if that counts
16:10:45 <kmc> PH: I know, right?
16:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Write "visca POUM" everywhere and test the Greeks' knowledge of George Orwell's autobiographical work.
16:13:37 <kmc> going to albania soon
16:13:49 <kmc> it is hoped that albania is not closed on sundays
16:14:09 <olsner> albania? isn't that the fictional country in the dilbert comics?
16:14:28 <kmc> no it's the fictional country in wag the dog
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17:02:39 <Sgeo_> tswett, you're welcome
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17:57:36 <itidus21> (in relation to punk rock) i can't tell if things are good, or if things only appear good because of repeated exposure
17:58:04 <itidus21> that being said, i am convinced that it is possible to tell how much work has been put into something
17:59:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:00:25 <itidus21> but then, if you put work into something and you forget to put honesty, emotion, whatever else the platitdes say into it, then it will be as good as having done no work at all
18:00:59 <Taneb> Hi, Phantom_Hoover!
18:01:30 <Taneb> But yeah, I do not like Black Eyed Peas
18:01:42 <Taneb> Or polystyrene, but that's for different reasons
18:03:03 <itidus21> i think that my humps is a song about celebrating lust and hedonism
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18:14:41 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: Hi Dr. Nick.
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18:59:54 <itidus21> im playing smb in slow motion.. and.. i just stomped a goomba, and then on the ricochet i stomped another goomba which was still in midair falling
19:00:15 <itidus21> it was like.. omg that just happened
19:00:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Braid is essentially SMB with time travel and different aesthetics
19:01:59 <itidus21> when i first played it, it didn't mean an awful lot to me
19:04:07 <oerjan> <kmc> it is hoped that albania is not closed on sundays <-- it's muslim so probably fridays
19:04:52 <oerjan> <olsner> albania? isn't that the fictional country in the dilbert comics? <-- elbonia hth
19:05:06 <itidus21> i was playing in slow mo to check which frames are used in the walking animation
19:05:55 <oerjan> although i recall it was translated as albanania in my old norwegian larson and/or calvin & hobbes magazines
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19:18:43 <itidus21> this is useless information but those bars made out of flames in the castles turn out to have 32 phases
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19:24:50 <quintopia> ais523: i had an idea. what do you think of a geek code-style colorized code to classify programs on the bfjoust strategies page according to which strategies they use?
19:28:27 -!- ais523 has quit.
19:30:06 <oerjan> geek codes are colorized these days?
19:31:01 <quintopia> thats why i had to add that qualification
19:35:49 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia there is a rule in snooker that you have to make an attempt to hit the ball otherwise it is a foul and miss.
19:36:07 <zzo38> quintopia: What idea of colors did you think of?
19:37:16 <zzo38> What colors do you want?
19:56:37 <itidus21> i want better colours rather than more colours
19:57:57 <itidus21> what i want is to make something like super mario bros. but 1)original and 2)better
20:00:01 <itidus21> i guess it's like a mathematician saying, i want to make euclid's elements but better
20:01:03 <itidus21> it's not my place to speak for math
20:02:19 <oerjan> euclid probably wasn't that original
20:02:35 <oerjan> as in, no way he invented all of it himself
20:02:50 <itidus21> wikipedia's position is "Although many of the results in Elements originated with earlier mathematicians, one of Euclid's accomplishments was to present them in a single, logically coherent framework, making it easy to use and easy to reference, including a system of rigorous mathematical proofs that remains the basis of mathematics 23 centuries later."
20:03:11 <itidus21> but, i suppose that means, a single editor on wikipedia decided to take that position
20:04:03 <itidus21> oerjan: heh.. is there any traces of pre-numeric humanity?
20:04:08 <oerjan> begs for a citation needed, then
20:04:53 <itidus21> i guess this is a difficult question i ask
20:04:57 <oerjan> itidus21: how in the world would you use scant archeological finds and fossils to detect that someone did _not_ know numbers?
20:05:25 <oerjan> although there are supposedly recent tribes which don't count beyond 2 or 3
20:06:46 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:07:19 <itidus21> WP mentions the mesopotamians using base 60 about 5400 years ago.. so it has to be older than that
20:08:10 <oerjan> numbers 1-10 in indoeuropean languages are commonly inherited, although i'm not sure how old the proto-language is supposed to be
20:08:42 <itidus21> WP also says "The units themselves grew out of the tradition of counting tokens used by the Neolithic (c 6000 BCE) cultural complex of the Near East.
20:09:26 <oerjan> it's _possible_ the need to count a lot of things only started with agriculture
20:09:43 <oerjan> you needed to know how many sheep you had
20:09:58 <olsner> it started with taxation, I think
20:09:58 <itidus21> so, wp is looking back at least 8000 years
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20:11:13 <itidus21> my interpretation of that wp sentence was a bit bad too
20:11:49 <oerjan> it's all sumerian to me
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20:16:13 <itidus21> " The oldest tally sticks date to between 35,000 and 25,000 years ago, in the form of notched bones found in the context of the European Aurignacian to Gravettian and in Africa's Late Stone Age."
20:16:44 <itidus21> yeah.. it could be a long search to find how far back it infact goes
20:19:00 <itidus21> ahh .. this is an exciting explanation of life in 300,000BC
20:19:33 <itidus21> Possessions had to be portable, since they had to be carried around. Everything that could not be carried, was left behind. People had to be quick in movement and reaction; being slow meant instant death. Animals were not the stuffy types we keep in zoos nowadays. They were bigger, fast as lightning and regarded a human just as another piece of juicy meat. And there were no gates or anything to keep t
20:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, the deer and the rabbits saw humans as another piece of juicy meat?
20:23:53 <itidus21> so, this may sound rather daft, but what does counting actually bring?
20:24:17 <olsner> bigger and bigger numbers
20:26:24 <itidus21> like for example, i imagine the reason people needed to know how many sheep they had is so that they would know if people stole them etc
20:26:44 <olsner> they hadn't invented crime back then, I think
20:27:13 <itidus21> maybe the idea was... so you could tell if you needed to search for a lost sheep?
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20:28:15 <olsner> I think one of the first uses was taxation: the accountants put a record of the number of sheep you have so that they know exactly how many sheep to demand of you
20:28:17 * oerjan hopes this doesn't mean the disconnections are back again
20:28:20 <itidus21> oerjan: forgive me if this is like trolling, but what is the main benefit of counting sheep?
20:28:45 <itidus21> ^i mean of knowing how many sheep you have
20:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, AND you can SEE the fundamental THESIS: TAXATION is THEFT
20:29:42 <oerjan> itidus21: knowing that you have not lost any when shepherding, or from theft?
20:29:50 <olsner> property is theft, taxation is stealing it back again
20:30:08 <itidus21> oerjan: cool. same conclusions i had
20:31:40 <itidus21> because, like, suppose that you spill a bag of apples
20:32:04 <itidus21> if you know how many apples you had, you know when to stop expending energy in search of them
20:32:25 <itidus21> and you can also decide its not enough to expend any energy at all
20:32:38 <oerjan> <olsner> they hadn't invented crime back then, I think
20:33:05 <oerjan> i'm going to bet that's older than our species.
20:33:23 <itidus21> if other species do it, it's not crime :D
20:33:49 <oerjan> if other species will punish you if you're caught, i think it counts as crime.
20:34:19 <itidus21> i saw on a tv show that monkeys don't like to be cheated at cards
20:40:14 <itidus21> so in the case of shepharding, if you know you have all your sheep theres no need to waste energy searching for lost sheep
20:41:08 <itidus21> and in the case of theft, i guess at the least you can relax more if you know noone stole stuff
20:41:40 <itidus21> but of course this can lead into attachment
20:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Because some of the commentators are people who will sing Valve's praises loudly today, and in general it's amazing just how much the opinions have whiplashed.
20:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Even better are when the comments are still open so the top ones are all agreeing and the bottom is vitriolic hatred for the author.
20:54:30 * oerjan wants there to be a vitriolic hatred comment that ends with "oh wait, i wrote that"
20:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember a similar anecdote with some mathematician being shown his own paper or a derivative of it and saying it was all tosh.
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21:03:37 * oerjan thinks he's seen that guy before
21:04:08 <impomatic> Apparently I need to add a MIME map in system.webServer/handlers! Does anyone know how? http://corewar.co.uk/infinano/EERIE.RED
21:04:12 <Taneb> oerjan, who? impomatic?
21:05:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:07:27 <oerjan> impomatic: on my website you can put .htaccess files in each directory, i have one containing a line AddType text/plain .pl
21:08:50 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined.
21:09:02 <impomatic> oerjan: I don't think .htaccess works on the new server. it's something to do with web.config :-(
21:09:26 <oerjan> i think it tried to run my code examples as cgi without it. or maybe it just got some other type which wasn't convenient.
21:09:28 <nortti_> Frooxius|TabletP: what does TabletP mean?
21:10:35 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has changed nick to Frooxius.
21:11:18 <oerjan> oh well then, i don't know about the central configuration (i'm not even an admin on the machine)
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21:13:55 <nortti_> http://www.sitepoint.com/microsoft-drop-trident-from-internet-explorer/ :D
21:15:51 * oerjan was going to complain the link was old
21:16:55 <oerjan> because i actually read down to the quote first.
21:17:10 <Taneb> Just seen the date
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21:46:53 <Taneb> In decades to come, I'm gonna reminisce about IRC
21:47:23 <Taneb> You guys are great
21:48:43 <olsner> what will actually happen is that in decades to come, you are still here
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21:49:34 <Taneb> Then most of you will be gone, and I'll be annoyed that the young 'uns show no respect?
21:49:52 <Taneb> Crap, I've been here less than a year
21:49:59 <oerjan> then one day the singularity arrives. then you'll still be here, there will just be no world _outside_ the net any more.
21:50:15 <Taneb> It'll be a year next month, I think
21:51:08 <oerjan> Taneb: evidence shows that hexhammers get bored by this channel eventually, then just join occasionally to snark.
21:51:25 <Taneb> Your evidence has a sample size of what?
21:51:44 <oerjan> i didn't say it was _good_ evidence
21:52:51 <olsner> I read a book once that said this is the basic law of hexhammery
21:53:17 <Taneb> There's a book about Hexham?
21:53:37 <nortti_> I am picturing a hammer with hexadecimal numbers written on it
21:54:22 <oerjan> it's all about hammering hexes
21:54:24 <Taneb> olsner, was it by David West?
21:54:40 <olsner> Taneb: I don't know, I haven't read it yet
21:56:40 <oerjan> "The word hex is a good example of the sort of borrowing from other languages that occurred in the English-speaking former colonies of Great Britain. German and Swiss immigrants who settled in Pennsylvania in the late 17th and 18th centuries spoke a dialect of German known as Pennsylvania Dutch. In this dialect hexe was the equivalent of the German verb hexen, "to practice sorcery." The English verb hex, first recorded in the sense "to practice witchc
21:58:12 <oerjan> witchcraft" in an 1830 work called Annals of Philadelphia, is borrowed from Pennsylvania Dutch, as is the noun."
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22:15:21 <soundnfury> "Death Metal band from Germany (Paderborn), formed in 1999." sagt last.fm hier: http://www.last.fm/music/Hexenhammer
22:16:17 <soundnfury> score one for useless cultural facts in school languages lessons
22:18:42 * oerjan recalls reading about the hop gardens of kent
22:19:23 <oerjan> somehow that stuck from one of those
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23:15:36 <shachaf> kmc: 16:15 <nobdraisentone> How can I convert `Maybe a` to `IO ()`?
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23:19:24 <Sgeo_> I'm a karma whore. I retyped some idiot's images with just a bunch of words
23:19:39 <Sgeo_> Not even to promote it particularly, because I disagree with much of it
23:19:39 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/x9yv5/heres_how_you_fix_reddit/c5klrgh?context=3
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23:34:47 <quintopia> zzo38: i didnt come up with any details yet. feel free to suggest.
23:35:17 <zzo38> I made some changes to MagicKit assembler, so that the target machine can be specified by command-line switches instead of only by filename, and .ASSIGN command to adjust reserved symbols, and it also includes an emulator now.
23:35:35 <zzo38> quintopia: Details of what?
23:37:19 <quintopia> zzo38: a code to classify bfjoust programs based onn the strategies they use
23:39:09 <zzo38> Perhaps you can have: slow/fast, offense/defense, file size, ...
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