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00:45:05 <Sgeo_> Annoying thing about Tcl: Libraries that use callbacks can take the callbacks in several different forms, some of which are harder to deal with than others
00:45:18 <Sgeo_> The irc package in tcllib takes scripts
00:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so broken teabags are like 20% of what's wrong with the world.
00:47:04 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: If by "scripts" you mean what I think you mean, that's by far the most normal means of callbacks.
00:47:06 <olsner> luckily, it's trivial to live entirely without tea
00:47:36 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, I'm under the impression that command prefixes are better
00:47:49 <Sgeo_> You can pass a script to something expecting a command prefix via apply
00:48:21 <Sgeo_> And using apply like that also makes it easy for arguments provided by the callback to go into arbitrary places in the script
00:48:32 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Keep in mind that apply is relatively recent.
00:49:17 <Sgeo_> What's the normal way to pass in arguments to scripts? Make commands that give the data in question?
00:50:55 <Sgeo_> The normal way to have the callback include data specified when calling the thing that takes the callback is to make a proc and generate the script with [list]?
00:55:32 <Sgeo_> somesnitobj registerevent someevent [list myhandler $data1 $data2]
01:07:30 <tswett> So, I'm pondering how to implement computation in Proce.
01:09:05 <tswett> Logic gates are easy enough to implement. Suppose that 0 and 1 represent true and false, respectively, and f and g are signals.
01:09:45 <tswett> Then NOT f is f - 1; f AND g is r!(f + g - 1); and... you can figure out the rest.
01:10:45 <Sgeo_> It should in theory be possible to write long scripts in "[list ...];[list ...]..." form, right?
01:11:00 <Sgeo_> Although probably not the best way to go
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01:17:26 <tswett> So yeah, you get arbitrary finite state machines for free. You can also create Minsky machine registers, if you have an exactly accurate clock.
01:17:38 <tswett> And from there, of course, you can create a Minsky machine.
01:39:43 <tswett> Doing logic gates like I said seems like cheating, though. It's not supposed to be possible to store information outside of i! signals.
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02:25:37 <Sgeo_> pikhq, is this a bad idea http://nopaste.dk/p13368
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04:22:01 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:26:36 <kallisti> monqy: word problem: a train leaves London traveling at 5 knotts. The london skyline's width decreases at a rate of 0.25 centimeters per second. What is the circumfrence of the sun in the sky?
04:30:46 <itidus21> i think that if one knew the circumference of the sun in general it would be the correct answer
04:31:06 <itidus21> but i think it is too trivial a fact to keep
04:33:42 <kallisti> shachaf: is your alt nick sha1chaf?
04:35:17 <kallisti> I want to devise a word problem where the facts given in the word problem seem completely unrelated to the question at the end
04:35:27 <kallisti> but the answer can be accurately derived from the facts.
04:36:28 <kallisti> the facts for the word problem can be
04:36:53 <kallisti> and the question can be: "How do you distribute wealth equally among all people in the world?"
04:37:52 <kmc> i found Xhorxh W. Bush Street
04:43:34 <itidus21> i speculate that you can't play google pacman on the namco offices in google maps street view
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05:03:06 <Sgeo_> The irc package in tcllib is disgustingly low-level
05:03:07 <Sgeo_> $conn registerevent 001 [list $conn join $config(chan)]
05:03:13 <Sgeo_> ^^how to join a channel
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06:21:17 <Sgeo_> asdnlfjkashjkfawihefwkalfra
06:21:20 <Sgeo_> Trying to make an IRC bot
06:21:33 <Sgeo_> Latest bug in millionth test: Arbitrary code execution
06:25:02 <Sgeo_> Not arbitrary code, just arbitrary string commands
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06:53:47 <zzo38> I have gotten some messages on nesdev about my improvements to PPMCK
06:56:03 <zzo38> Some people had their own improvements so some of them I have also added on to my program too, such as allowing #EX-VRC-VII as an alias to #EX-VRC7
06:56:57 <kallisti> http://www.phun.org/newspics/funny_friday_2/7065.jpg
07:00:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, if the whole universe can fit in a nutshell, surely just America can as well.
07:00:17 <pikhq> Unless perhaps ego has an anti-TARDIS effect on space.
07:00:44 <pikhq> Space In Dimension Relative And Time? Yes, clearly that is the anti-TARDIS effect.
07:01:10 <Sgeo_> pikhq, do Tumblr and Twitter not know how to send 304?
07:01:48 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I presume not.
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07:05:57 <zzo38> What is a anti-TARDIS effect?
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07:30:28 <zzo38> I have thought of idea of some kind of programming language for compression, having four blocks: Archive block, Control block, Compress block, Calculate block.
07:30:48 <zzo38> O, and also Data block.
07:34:43 <zzo38> Calculate block are pure functions. Compress block are always reversible programming. Archive block has no flow controls (and always halts), except it can call Control block (but cannot decide what to do from the result), and the Archive block can also set values of registers.
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07:51:48 <zzo38> Well, I mean, the functions can be partial, but it is reversible when in range and otherwise error message if given wrong input.
07:54:23 <zzo38> What is a psychosimulator test?
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08:04:09 <itidus21> zzo38: when i saw this i thought you might like it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtbsje5dHtM
08:04:55 <itidus21> it should be clear from 30 seconds in why
08:05:44 <itidus21> i dont like this sort of game at all
08:06:16 <zzo38> Stop linking videos too much, especially YouTube
08:06:52 <itidus21> the 8bit sound effects is only fun part
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08:09:09 <kallisti> I am in an argument with someone
08:09:16 <kallisti> who is claiming that the peano axioms are not a definition of the natural numbers
08:09:38 <Taneb> They contain, but aren't
08:09:42 <kallisti> you can't even /have/ the powers of two
08:09:47 <zzo38> It seem to me that they don't
08:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, hey now don't start getting all philosophical.
08:10:08 <zzo38> As far as I know they define natural numbers only
08:10:17 <Taneb> Axioms one and six define the natural numbers
08:10:30 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: this argument is entirely philosophical
08:10:39 <zzo38> I think you need more than just axioms one and six.
08:10:40 <kallisti> because it's about what defines something in mathematics.
08:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "In mathematical logic, the Peano axioms, also known as the DedekindPeano axioms or the Peano postulates, are a set of axioms for the natural numbers[...]"
08:11:29 <Taneb> zzo38, seven, I think you need too
08:12:30 <zzo38> Actually I think you need all of them if they are to define the natural numbers, without all of them there would be other things too which follow these axioms
08:13:15 <kallisti> you can't really define the ordering of natural numbers with only the first and sixth axioms
08:13:29 <kallisti> the sixth one only says "oh btw, if n is a natural, then so is S(n). good luck"
08:14:35 <kallisti> but that doesn't say whether S(S(n)) is a distinct natural number from S(n)
08:14:57 <Taneb> I'm wrong, as usual
08:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well duh, if you leave out the axioms defining the equality relation you don't have an equality relation.
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08:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You need all the axioms to define the natural numbers, by definition.
08:20:52 <kallisti> do you think that math is arbitrarily defined?
08:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh this conversation you're having sounds unbearable.
08:21:32 <kallisti> I think most of math exists as it does because either a) it describes something with useful applications b) we find it aesthetically pleasing
08:21:45 <kallisti> and otherwise we could rearrange all the axioms arbitrarily
08:22:31 <Taneb> The basic portions of maths are based on the real world
08:22:48 <Taneb> If I have three apples, and someone gives me two more apples, I have 5 apples
08:22:54 <kallisti> we've defined math as it is because it describes a lot of shit we've encountered in the world.
08:22:56 <Taneb> And a mysterious apple-donor
08:26:21 <kallisti> I think it's claiming too much to say that math describes "universal truths"
08:26:55 <Taneb> Any system with consistent axioms describes universal truths
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08:28:30 <Taneb> What's the correct course of action when finding a typo in a paper written 62 years ago?
08:29:21 <Taneb> I lack both of those, and I'm reading it as a PDF
08:30:02 <itidus21> perhaps take a note of it somewhere
08:30:52 <fizzie> Taneb: Does the journal in which it was published still exist?
08:31:31 <Taneb> It may be a transcription error, though :(
08:31:46 <Taneb> It's a pretty famous paper, so somebody's bound to have seen it before
08:32:04 <Taneb> Computing Machinery and Intelligence by Alan Turing
08:45:12 <Taneb> Challenge: create a finite state automaton with lambda calculus at its core
08:45:33 <Sgeo_> I think I might need Haskell
08:45:47 <Sgeo_> I make so many dumb mistakes while programming, and Haskell catches them sooner
08:46:17 <Sgeo_> The 20 million bugs while writing my bot
08:46:32 <kallisti> Sgeo_: I have this problem with perl
08:46:33 <Sgeo_> Forgetting $, putting it in the wrong place, not initializing an array consistently
08:47:07 <Sgeo_> Also, make global variables too easy, and I think I use them
08:47:38 <Taneb> I like Haskell because it's how I think
08:49:46 <Taneb> And there's a random '['!
08:54:10 <Taneb> Typos in this paper I am reading
08:54:43 <Taneb> Yeah, maybe you've noticed that tendency I have to entertain multiple trains of thought simultaneously
08:54:56 <Taneb> And make no distinction between them while talking
08:58:02 <Taneb> He was here yesterday, I seem to recall
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08:59:28 <Vorpal> why does windows insist on reinstalling drivers for an USB device if you connect it to a different port. What sort of crazy model requires that
09:00:13 <Vorpal> anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most
09:00:19 <Vorpal> which is even stranger
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09:00:47 <Taneb> I need to work out why that happens
09:00:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, you click the close button?
09:01:05 <Vorpal> in case you missed it:
09:01:06 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most
09:01:07 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> which is even stranger
09:01:12 <Taneb> I think it's me shift-clicking on the channel name
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09:01:46 <Vorpal> well there you are then
09:01:54 <Vorpal> why would you shift click it anyway
09:02:00 <Taneb> Not intentionally!
09:02:14 <Taneb> My mouse is over the channel name, because I've just switched to it
09:02:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's some sort of a port-specificness-weirdness also with the Windows drivers for the PS3 pad. It's certainly some kind of a thing.
09:02:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, how can shift-click happen unintentionally? Shift clicking is not a common operation in most irc clients
09:02:41 <Taneb> I'm holding shift down because I'm typing a capital letter
09:02:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, "some kind of a thing"?
09:03:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, why do you type and click at the same time
09:03:03 <Taneb> And I tap my laptop's touchpad?
09:03:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, turn on the touch pad palm detection?
09:03:23 <Vorpal> or turn off the touch pad
09:03:33 <Vorpal> I have the touch pad turned off, I use the trackpoint instead
09:03:46 <Taneb> Don't have a trackpoint, or a mouse lying around
09:04:31 <Taneb> Disabled clicking with touchpad
09:04:33 <nortti> I don't even have touchpad. my only pointing device is trackpoint
09:04:48 <Taneb> I now have to use the buttons just below the touchpad
09:05:09 <fizzie> The synaptics driver has some kind of a feature for autodisable-when-actively-typing, but I've never quite made it work.
09:05:28 <nortti> trackpoint is much nicer to use
09:06:27 <Vorpal> tapping to click with touchpad is quite bad too
09:06:33 <Vorpal> as in, it usually doesn't work properly
09:06:57 <fizzie> I like tap-to-click, and ~never have problems with it. YMMV.
09:07:07 <fizzie> Someone recently asked me how to click with a trackpoint.
09:07:14 <fizzie> They kept trying to press it.
09:07:19 <nortti> actually trackpoint is the biggest reason why I use this computer
09:07:27 <Vorpal> I remember seeing laptops with trackballs
09:07:31 <Vorpal> might have been an early powerbook
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09:07:46 <Taneb> The biggest reason I use this computer is because it's the fastest I have access to with working internet
09:07:46 <fizzie> There used to be laptops with balls, that's true.
09:08:15 <Vorpal> would be cool to have that as a scroll wheel in combination with a trackpoint for mouse movement
09:08:26 <Vorpal> nortti, modern thinkpads still have it
09:08:41 <Vorpal> nortti, so did a brand new toshiba netbook I recently interacted with
09:09:16 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but those also have trackpad that always gets in the way
09:09:16 <fizzie> Haven't seen that many separate trackballs around either, lately.
09:09:30 <Vorpal> nortti, you can turn those off though easily in linux
09:09:39 <Vorpal> nortti, like I did on the thinkpad I'm typing on atm
09:09:57 <Vorpal> in fact I bet it works under windows too, since there is an fn-key for it
09:10:20 <Vorpal> no clue why you would want stock windows on this though, it came with vista
09:10:41 <nortti> Vorpal: well what I meant by "trackpad that always gets in the way" I meant that they can't put large enough buttons under spacebar
09:10:54 <fizzie> The fact that there are separate mouse buttons for the trackpad and trackpoint, and that the latter are often adjacent to the trackpad (right above it) puzzles me for some reason. (Obviously they're there for the positioning, but still.)
09:11:01 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't find my buttons to be too small, let me take a photo.
09:11:16 <nortti> but yes. trackpad would also randomly move your pointer
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09:11:38 <Vorpal> wow the dust certainly shows up in the camera
09:11:45 <Vorpal> nortti not if you turn that off
09:11:56 <Vorpal> besides modern trackpads are not quite as terrible wrt that
09:12:37 <nortti> actually I find new trackpads worse with that than old
09:13:36 <nortti> for example I never accidentaly moved mouse with my iBook G4 but I do it all the tine when I have to fix my sisters 2 years old hp laptop
09:13:51 <fizzie> I've gotten reasonably used to having a two-finger scroll on laptops too. (Don't interact with so many ThinkPads so don't really have a trackpoint habit.)
09:14:21 <Vorpal> nortti, I had terrible problems with phantom movements on my first model ibook
09:14:28 <Vorpal> (one of those blue clamshell ones)
09:14:57 <Vorpal> nortti, and I guess it could be a issue with quality rather than modernness
09:15:03 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that I had to do something special to the G4 iBook in order to make a two-finger scroll happen.
09:15:04 <Vorpal> HP is not exactly high quality
09:15:11 <shachaf> kmc: One day you'll quit every IRC channel. :-(
09:15:12 <Vorpal> a thinkpad is way better
09:15:34 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't have problems with phantom movements on my Lenovo Thinkpad touchpad unless I put my palms on it.
09:15:43 <nortti> fizzie: I actually used iScroll2 mouse driver with my iBook that enabled two finger scrolling. I never got really used to it and I'd just always use arrow keys
09:15:44 <Vorpal> and that was the reason I turned it off, because doing so was way too easy
09:16:01 <fizzie> nortti: Right, iScroll2, exactly.
09:16:24 <Vorpal> nortti, my dell latitude d610 (somewhat dated) has the touchpad slightly lowered into the palmrest, rather than at the same level
09:16:32 <Vorpal> (and it also has a trackpoint)
09:16:46 <nortti> I wonder if iScroll2 works with my new iBook G3 (white)
09:16:51 <Vorpal> didn't have to turn the touchpad off there, since you don't end up putting your palm on it
09:18:19 <fizzie> "Supported models include most aluminum PowerBooks introduced from 2003 to 2004 as well as most G4 iBooks."
09:18:24 <Vorpal> nortti, not sure if this link will work for you. I hope it will: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cmy7xsmk3xlxrci/CD5mgXYRV5
09:18:44 <Vorpal> nortti, those buttons are just the right size for me
09:19:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, also middle mouse button
09:19:10 <Vorpal> which is why I love this laptop
09:19:16 <nortti> Vorpal: what format id that picture?
09:19:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: I just left-and-right-click for that.
09:19:27 <Vorpal> nortti, format? It is a web album
09:19:33 <Vorpal> nortti, click on the images to see them
09:19:57 <nortti> Vorpal: I can't do that. It requires javascript
09:20:00 <Vorpal> nortti, just the standard dropbox auto-album for anything you put under Photos
09:20:05 <fizzie> (I have no idea how to middle-click in Windows on that laptop, though.)
09:20:28 <Vorpal> nortti, does this work? https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AAA2GwVU2_I-BqLTkFaePxHNgcq-s7yihQJIAtG1-hj5qQ/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111221.jpg/lzLGnpTgvMZ-Eus5EQpZJZUnvmZ0d2ZyU7eEvkV-64Q?size=800x600
09:20:31 <Vorpal> and https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AADUvhtK7AOFlYVZCxbyUvJLQbbavq4pI_Lf-aWjvVwebA/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111227.jpg/0696oNZ4gQ5KhrnPBAqT3bcOxmRQ5SXfdfZsO1lz4Lo?size=800x600
09:20:40 <Vorpal> and also https://photos-2.dropbox.com/thumb/AABwx8n-oZ_Fq62CrCyhLgUiQm3ekERxOSeJTBCwgJht9w/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111239.jpg/bEx8pgZLQvGYh2iDmLqkddqCv_Sqzpg9MhoFUC584sM?size=800x600
09:20:50 <Vorpal> nortti, if those don't work then I don't know
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09:22:25 <nortti> Vorpal: they work. how large is that thinkpad?
09:22:58 <nortti> ok. then those buttons are tiny
09:23:09 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway the keys on the keyboard are full size
09:23:22 <Vorpal> well the letter and number ones
09:23:26 <Vorpal> obviously not the arrow keys
09:23:50 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway I have huge hands and I have no issues with those buttons
09:24:39 <Vorpal> nortti, I can reach from fn to p with my right hand. (fn to o comfortably)
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09:25:01 <Vorpal> fn to å if I don't have to be able to press down the key
09:25:20 <olsner> I think all thinkpad keyboards are sized for the smallest thinkpad models
09:25:46 <nortti> Vorpal: on T20 my left and right mouse buttons are bit larger that all of the mouse buttons and middle buttons is under them and is is around the same size as all of your mouse buttons
09:26:06 <Vorpal> olsner, well the keys on the main area of the keyboard have the same size as the keys on my full size PS/2 keyboard that I use for my desktop
09:26:10 <nortti> *left and right mouse button combined
09:26:27 <Vorpal> olsner, not as deep obviously, but the same area for the raised bit
09:26:45 <nortti> also my T20 lacks screen and battery
09:27:01 <Vorpal> nortti, this is an R500 btw
09:27:26 <Vorpal> nortti, your mouse buttons must cover most of the area below the keyboard then?
09:27:30 <Vorpal> nortti, can you take a photo
09:28:05 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't have camera on my phone
09:28:20 <Vorpal> nortti, thought you had an old android one?
09:28:28 <Vorpal> anyway the key area is 6 cm x 1.8 cm
09:29:03 <Vorpal> nortti, I'm pretty sure that the Android compatiblity spec said "has a camera" until like 4.0 or 4.1
09:29:30 <Vorpal> (same for "has wifi" until 3.0 I believe?)
09:29:55 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. I have HTC Widlfire but it doesn't work very well. I can try it later when it strarts charging the battery
09:30:15 <Vorpal> olsner, hm then the smallest one must be like 14" based on my keyboard
09:30:51 <nortti> on my 15" T20 keyboard spans the entrire width of thre laptop and keys are full size
09:31:02 <Vorpal> nortti, you should get one of the crazy thinkpads. With the butterfly keyboard
09:31:15 <Vorpal> because they are awesome
09:31:59 <Vorpal> nortti, full size keys here again, except for the F-keys, esc, the windows keys, prtsc,scrlk,pause,insert,delete,home,end,pgup,pgdn and the arrow keys
09:32:13 <Vorpal> oh and those keys below shift and above the left and right arrows
09:32:19 <Vorpal> which are "back" and "forward"
09:32:31 <Vorpal> works to switch tabs in kate
09:32:37 <Vorpal> also back/fwd in browser
09:32:56 <fizzie> Misread "keyboard spans the entrire width of three laptops".
09:33:01 <fizzie> That's be quite a keyboard.
09:33:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would be a butterfly style keyboard
09:33:37 <Vorpal> or the laptop would have infinite width
09:33:52 <Vorpal> since you obviously measure the width of the laptop based on a folded up laptop
09:33:52 <nortti> oh. I also have not-completely-full-size-but-almost keys for esc, F keys, SysRq, SrcLk, Break , Insert, Delete, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn
09:34:42 <Vorpal> nortti, my F-keys are only slightly less wide but about half the height
09:35:03 <Vorpal> esc is a bit taller than that
09:35:10 <Vorpal> about 2/3 of a normal key
09:35:27 <Vorpal> nortti, do you have hardware volume buttons too
09:35:37 <fizzie> All keys on this things next to me are full-size-when-it-comes-to-width, but the top row (esc, f1-f12, sysrq, break, ins/del, / and * from numpad) is a bit less tall than the others. Maybe that 2/3rds.
09:35:56 <nortti> ar maybe I had at the empty holes at the top of the keyboard
09:35:57 <Vorpal> btw my old dell laptop has both hardware volume buttons and volume on fn-combos
09:36:08 <Vorpal> it lacks screen brightness on fn though
09:36:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: My old laptop (the model of which I've forgotten) has a hardware volume *knob*. Now *that's* retro.
09:37:03 <Vorpal> because I normally like my volume below the lowest step
09:37:16 <Vorpal> seriously, why is everything so god damn loud
09:37:19 <fizzie> Well, I guess "knob" is a bit of a wrong word since it's a sunk-in thing. But a thing you rotate. (Awkwardly.)
09:37:33 <Vorpal> I had to use the equaliser settings on my phone to counteract the loudness for example
09:37:45 <Vorpal> so I set everything in the equaliser down as far as possible
09:38:01 <Vorpal> then music is about the right volume in the headphones
09:38:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember seeing that on an old toshiba
09:38:25 <nortti> I have alsamixer at about 80% and mplayer at 39%
09:39:02 <Vorpal> anyway I do turn it up a bit when I'm in a loud environment, normally one or two steps, not much anyway
09:39:10 <nortti> and the volume control on my headphones at the lowest setting possible
09:39:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a Toshiba Tecra 730CDT, apparently.
09:39:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember what toshiba it was I saw it on
09:39:59 <fizzie> http://www.recycledgoods.com/product_images/b/886/s_p_10719_1__07188_zoom.jpg -- the knob is up there.
09:40:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they make a series called Satellite or something?
09:40:10 <Vorpal> I think that might have been it
09:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably was around 2000-2004 or so
09:40:32 <Vorpal> okay your one is even older I bet
09:40:49 <fizzie> "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today! Now there's the Tecra 730CDT."
09:40:53 <nortti> fizzie: that is one awesome laptop
09:40:58 <fizzie> (From Toshiba's product page.)
09:41:05 <fizzie> nortti: Mine doesn't have a battery, though.
09:41:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, they called them notebook then?
09:41:18 <nortti> fizzie: how much memory does it have?
09:41:26 <fizzie> nortti: "And the hard disk and memory capacity are also pushing back the boundaries of what you thought possible: the 2.16 billion byte hard disk and 16 MB EDO RAM (expandable up to 144 MB - yes that's one hundred and forty four MB) will take care of the most complex programs and data-hungry applications - no problem."
09:41:28 <Vorpal> I thought that was a word invented after the stuff about "uh, it is bad to use it in your lap"
09:41:38 <fizzie> nortti: I think 32 or 48 in my particular case.
09:41:57 <fizzie> I like the "2.16 billion byte hard disk" part.
09:42:07 <fizzie> Somehow a billion bytes is much more impressive than a gigabyte.
09:42:09 <nortti> fizzie: ok. it fits inside my processing power requirement
09:42:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, so that is... 216 MB?
09:42:36 <fizzie> "Communications are just as easy on the Tecra 730CDT, with 2 PC-card slots and the integrated 28.8 kbps modem with full telephony functions (including hand-free and answer-phone options). The built-in infra-red port even makes cable-free data transfer with printers or other PCs possible. A further highlight of the Tecra 730CDT is the 6-speed CD-ROM drive. And when you want to use the floppy ...
09:42:43 <fizzie> ... disk drive, all you do is swap them over. Or simply attach the floppy disk drive externally.
09:42:46 <fizzie> Multimedia heaven is complete with the super-sharp 12.1-inch SVGA screen and a resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels. The PCI-bus, special graphics drivers and 2 MB Video RAM guarantee you the ultimate in visual experiences."
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09:42:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey you could hook it up to my dell, it has IRDA too
09:43:13 <nortti> 1024x768! that is the resolution of my iBook G4's screen
09:43:22 <fizzie> nortti: It's got two megs of video memory, so you can't run 1024x768 in truecolor. 64k colors is fine, though.
09:43:36 <Vorpal> hm my dell can attach it's ultrabay-style floppy drive externally via USB too
09:43:47 <nortti> fizzie: does it have ethernet?
09:43:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have a floppy drive for this either, actually.
09:43:56 <Vorpal> that dell is quite strange, a lot of hardware on it seems very thinkpad-ish
09:44:04 <fizzie> nortti: Not built-in, but I have a CardBus card in it.
09:44:11 <Vorpal> like the trackpoint and the ultrabay
09:44:25 <nortti> cool. I could use that computer as my main machine
09:44:43 <fizzie> A D-Link one that has a full-sized RJ45 port right in the proturding thick part; I have some 3com pcmcia cards that use an adapter cable instead, and those are always breaking/getting lost.
09:44:44 <Vorpal> nortti, fancy, my ibook (g3) had 800x600
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09:45:34 <nortti> Vorpal: my iBook g3 has 1024x768. it is the white 500MHz one
09:45:39 <fizzie> nortti: The HD is not the original model, though; I think it's something slightly smaller than two gigs.
09:46:31 <fizzie> I think I've last used this for something that needed a DOS and a serial port.
09:46:47 <Vorpal> do modern PCs still have an ISA bus? I know my laptop does (I believe there are some hardware sensors on it) but I don't remember if my desktop does
09:46:50 <fizzie> I'd boot it up to see what it's running except I'm not entirely sure where I stored the charger.
09:46:57 <Vorpal> my desktop uses EFI and what not
09:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you back from Belgium then?
09:47:13 <nortti> Vorpal: the toilet seat ones have the 800x600 screen also used in PowerBook G3 "mainstreet" but later ones use same screen as "wallstreet" pb g3s
09:47:22 <Vorpal> nortti, you mean clamshell?
09:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, arrived late last Friday.
09:48:01 <fizzie> And I believe they often have a thing that looks like an ISA bus programmatically (e.g. for those sensors), but I'm not sure you can count that as a real ISA bus. Maybe so.
09:48:37 <fizzie> The sensors on this desktop are hooked to an IT8718 chip connected via "ISA".
09:49:09 <fizzie> Sometimes it's some sort of a smbus/i2c thing instead, though.
09:49:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, my laptop has both an ISA bus and an SMbus
09:49:35 <Vorpal> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03)
09:49:35 <Vorpal> 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 03)
09:49:47 <fizzie> 00:14.0 SMBus: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 3a)
09:49:48 <Vorpal> sensors seem to be on isa though
09:49:49 <fizzie> 00:14.3 ISA bridge: ATI Technologies Inc SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller
09:50:00 <Vorpal> intel graphics on this one
09:52:11 <fizzie> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation HM65 Express Chipset Family LPC Controller (rev 05)
09:52:15 <fizzie> 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller (rev 05)
09:52:37 <fizzie> Just an Intel chipset.
09:52:40 <Vorpal> why the multitude of n?
09:53:07 <nortti> 00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX AGP bridge (rev 03)
09:53:10 <nortti> 00:02.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1450 (rev 03)
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh, in the "nnno". Well, nnno particular reason. I was just thinking.
09:53:26 <Vorpal> nortti, 15:00.0 CardBus bridge: Ricoh Co Ltd RL5c476 II (rev ba)
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09:53:48 <Vorpal> nortti, I have Express Card too
09:53:57 <Vorpal> can't spot it in lspci though
09:54:18 <Vorpal> one PC Card slot and one Express Card slot
09:54:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, displayport or hdmi?
09:55:11 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway
09:55:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: On the laptop? There's HDMI, DVI and VGA ports, IIRC.
09:55:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, DVI on a laptop?
09:55:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of monster is that
09:56:06 <fizzie> I suppose they had space left over.
09:56:22 <fizzie> In the back. It's kind of a big laptop.
09:56:31 <fizzie> Okay, just 15.4", but kinda on the thick side.
09:56:47 <fizzie> I don't really carry this one around.
09:56:51 <Vorpal> I only have power and modem on the back. On and the battery slides in from the back too
09:56:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, then why laptop
09:57:07 <Vorpal> a desktop monitor would be ergonomically better
09:57:24 <fizzie> Because I sometimes do want to take it with me, e.g. for trips like this Belgium thing.
09:57:46 <Vorpal> oh was this that custom made one from Germany?
09:58:04 <Vorpal> or was that someone else
09:58:12 <fizzie> Well, "custom made" is perhaps a bit of an overstatement, but yes, it had some custom component selection involved, and it did come from germany.
09:59:04 <fizzie> The base laptop is fixed, I just got to choose what sort of graphics card, HD, wifi things etc. went into it.
09:59:07 <nortti> Vorpal: I use desktop monitor with my T20 because original screen was partly nonfunctional and it fell of at the hands previuos owner
09:59:16 <Vorpal> I wonder how hard it would be to buy components and build your own laptop... I guess finding a laptop case might be the hardest part
09:59:32 <Vorpal> and I guess they aren't really standardlized, so probably custom mobo then too
09:59:41 <nortti> Vorpal: there are instructions how to build one around beagleboard
10:00:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think you can buy the same "skeleton" that was used for this laptop even as a regular customer, though that's of course only about halfway building your own laptop.
10:00:28 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but more expensive
10:00:50 <nortti> Vorpal: and it has faster processor and it is ARMv7
10:00:58 <Vorpal> nortti, I meant for a higher end laptop. Something with maybe a x86 and nividia or AMD graphics
10:01:35 <nortti> Vorpal: that will be hard
10:01:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, did the skeleton include the mobo?
10:02:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, because I don't think laptop mobo form factor is standarlised
10:03:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure. It's got the case (with the display panel) and the motherboard; then you plug in a graphics card using that whatever-it-was thing they have for laptops; some memory; there's I guess minipci slots for wifi; a slot for a 2.5" SATA disk; and I think that's about it for the customization. The optical drive is also part of the thing, since it needs to fit the chassis.
10:03:42 <fizzie> The front is sloped to match and so on.
10:04:08 <fizzie> So there's not terribly much you can change. I guess the graphics card is pretty much the major piece.
10:04:26 <Vorpal> and I guess battery must be custom made for it too
10:04:42 <fizzie> I don't think you can have an UltraBay if you're not a ThinkPad.
10:04:49 <fizzie> I mean, I'm sure they have patents or whatnot on it.
10:05:09 <fizzie> A thing called UltraBay, I mean.
10:05:19 <Vorpal> well sure it is probably trademarked
10:05:28 <Vorpal> you could have the same idea anyway
10:05:32 <fizzie> There could obviously be some sort of a different swappable slot, but that'd be proprietary too.
10:05:54 <fizzie> Yeah, but it's still limited to different parts from the same company.
10:06:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the optical drive do DVD-RAM?
10:06:33 <fizzie> I think it does. Anyway, they do have a selection. It's not exactly UltraBay-like in that it's not hotswappable, but they have a selection.
10:06:34 <Vorpal> you can do: $ cd-info | grep DVD-RAM
10:06:41 <fizzie> You could have ordered this with a bluray thing.
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10:06:56 <fizzie> I don't have a "cd-info".
10:07:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm let me see which package it is from
10:07:19 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/jWZa
10:07:30 <fizzie> libcdio-utils on Ubuntu, apparently.
10:07:49 <Vorpal> mine is still searching
10:07:59 <Vorpal> libcdio-utils: /usr/bin/cd-info
10:08:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/hIIK from cdrecord -prcaps.
10:09:05 <fizzie> (It continues a whole lot longer, but those were the most interesting parts, perhaps.)
10:09:17 <Vorpal> Does not read CD bar code <-- huh?
10:09:24 <Vorpal> (from that command's output on my laptop)
10:09:39 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of weird standard.
10:09:46 <fizzie> Perhaps it's written in the rim or something.
10:09:51 <Vorpal> the full output of mine http://sprunge.us/ZRHY
10:10:29 <fizzie> Well, http://sprunge.us/GfZF for comparison purposes.
10:11:10 <fizzie> I've known that, but forgotten.
10:11:18 <fizzie> There's all kinds of complications in the CD standards.
10:11:26 <fizzie> In addition to the main data bit.
10:11:51 <fizzie> I remember that some of these things were relevant when it came to getting PSX disk images done correctly.
10:13:43 <fizzie> There are subchannels P, Q, R, S, T, U, V and W; P and Q are somewhat standard (and related to audio CD positioning, apparently) but the R-W subchannels are unused in the basic audio CD standard.
10:13:50 <fizzie> Extensions (and copy protection schemes) use those, though.
10:14:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, so if the drive can't read them, the copy protection could not check them I guess?
10:14:46 <Vorpal> I wonder why the drive simply can't return a raw data stream of the disk
10:14:50 <Vorpal> would be so much easier
10:15:11 <fizzie> Yes. And in the case of the PSX, it also means you couldn't use the drive to make a copy that'd work in the original device, since the drive in that can read those.
10:15:42 <Vorpal> how advanced is PSX emulation these days?
10:16:07 <fizzie> Good enough, I'd suppose.
10:16:13 <fizzie> You can do PS2 these days too.
10:16:50 <Vorpal> didn't it have too many co-processors all running on the same clock line or something?
10:16:51 <fizzie> Sure. I've played through FFX and a large part of FFXII with PCSX2 on the laptop we were speaking about.
10:17:12 <fizzie> It's not perfect, but "high-profile" things are playable.
10:17:20 <fizzie> They do quite a lot of recompilation and whatnot there, though.
10:17:54 <fizzie> Also offloading things on the GPU. At least based on the configuration menus; haven't looked closer than that.
10:18:36 <fizzie> Original PSX is probably a solved problem. There's a PSX emulator in the N900 repositories.
10:18:45 <fizzie> Haven't tried it, and that might not work so well, but it exists. :p
10:19:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know anything about video for linux?
10:19:30 <fizzie> I've written some code for the API, and it wasn't very pleasant, but that's about it.
10:19:30 <Vorpal> some sort of kernel framework for cameras
10:19:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh is it a standard API for all devices or a different one for each device?
10:20:22 <fizzie> It's standard as seen from the userland side. But I'm under the impression there's all kinds of messiness there to account for the widely different hardware.
10:20:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm trying to figure out if it would be possible to extract raw data from my phone camera
10:20:43 <fizzie> They've smungled video capture cards and webcams and digital-TV devices all under the same thing.
10:20:58 <fizzie> That depends on what the driver exports via V4L, I suppose.
10:21:00 <Vorpal> the drivers are badly commented for it and not in the standard kernel tree
10:21:14 <Vorpal> they are in the samsung open source kernel dump thingy
10:21:37 <Vorpal> I realised I really needed documentation for the hardware to understand it
10:21:38 <fizzie> You can query the capabilities via the standard API, you could start with that.
10:21:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you do that?
10:21:57 <Vorpal> and where is the v4l docs
10:22:04 <fizzie> You'd need to write a bit of code. Or, well, find some sort of a utility APP, I'm sure there's one.
10:22:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I do have a cross compiler setup
10:22:33 <Vorpal> so not an issue, I might need to copy some headers
10:22:37 <fizzie> s/APP/app/, I don't know why I capitalized it.
10:22:42 <fizzie> http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/ for V4L2, apparently.
10:22:54 <fizzie> I remember I've used the wiki that's linked from there.
10:23:09 <fizzie> That's on linuxtv.org, they have a lot of V4L-related stuff there.
10:23:17 <Vorpal> god damn, what a massive spec
10:23:20 <fizzie> Not sure if there's an API reference, though.
10:24:18 <fizzie> It's a lot of ioctls, that's for sure.
10:24:47 <Vorpal> I don't have an issue with ioctls
10:25:23 <fizzie> I wrote a piece of code to feed /dev/random with (hashed) bits from noise from a webcam. (There are quite a few other such pieces of code too.)
10:25:27 <Vorpal> anyway it was two ioctls for the actual photo bit, a bit more for either setup or preview. (I used strace on the camera app yesterday)
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10:26:15 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure there's also v4l-oriented libraries that try to make things better, and those might have better API docs too.
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10:26:31 <Vorpal> because that API seems horrible
10:26:41 <fizzie> I don't know of them; the single webcam-related software I did just spoke raw V4L2.
10:27:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that v4l or v4l2?
10:27:49 <fizzie> 2, I don't think 1 is very current at all.
10:28:45 <fizzie> mplayer has a V4L2 input driver which you could possibly also abuse to find out what you can get from the card, though it's kind of video-oriented. (I'm sure someone's compiled mplayer for your thing already.)
10:29:52 <fizzie> Anyway, it's very possible that the driver doesn't export the raw sensor data over V4L. You need a custom camera driver on the N900 to get that kind of stuff. (Then again, it still might.)
10:30:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the preview image arrives at the android API level as RGBA data (still not raw, but at least uncompressed).
10:30:59 <fizzie> Yeah, the JPEG compression you might be able to avoid.
10:31:07 <Vorpal> but yes there is a jpeg folder in the samsung kernel code bit
10:31:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, then again it might do jpeg even before the kernel level, since there are some references to hwjpeg in the user space *.so file for the camera.
10:32:10 <Vorpal> or that might just be a hardware accelarator called from the kernel
10:32:16 <Vorpal> or it might even refer to another model
10:32:21 <Vorpal> they just reusing the same *.so
10:32:49 <fizzie> The N900 does JPEG on the DSP chip, but I believe the userland camera app just calls into that, after getting uncompressed RGB from the camera. Haven't looked at it closely.
10:33:10 <Vorpal> can't find source code for the user space part of it
10:33:24 <Vorpal> CM9 build script just copies that file from a stock rom XD
10:33:29 <fizzie> I have a cheapo webcam here which does JPEG already on the camera side, and (as far as I know) doesn't support returning non-uncompressed stuff at all.
10:33:51 <fizzie> The V4L api has image formats for things returning JPEG-compressed stuff, so it's possible to do it in the driver.
10:34:04 <fizzie> (And of course it could be using a custom extension if V4L didn't have a standard for it.)
10:34:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how would I go about figuring out if it is possible
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10:34:26 <Vorpal> that API looks horrible
10:35:07 <Vorpal> where are the headers for v4l
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10:37:56 <Vorpal> wow... I was wondering why tab complete for ~/src was broken. Turned out I was sshed to the wrong system
10:38:12 <Vorpal> with a host name of about the same length
10:38:19 <Vorpal> and the same prompt colouring
10:39:02 <fizzie> If strace supports logging read(2) data into file, you could also do that, take a picture, then try to see if there's some kind of a full-frame sized (sequence of) reads that looks like raw RGB data.
10:40:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, thing is, the process issuing ioctls to the device file never read from it
10:40:10 <Vorpal> as far as I could tell
10:40:49 <fizzie> Hrm. Well, it could have some sort of a camera daemon involved. I'unno.
10:42:19 <Vorpal> hm my compiler errors out on including linux/videodev2.h
10:42:35 <Vorpal> with field timestamp having incomplete type
10:51:18 <Vorpal> wait what, why is open() in a different header than close()?
10:52:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know why?
10:56:00 <fizzie> Not really, though they're not exactly coupled. I mean, you can close anything (so unistd is a reasonable place for it), but you can open only files.
10:56:24 <fizzie> "Reflects existing practice" is probably the official (un)reason.
10:59:21 <fizzie> The "ultra high speed +" in that cdrecord -prcap output is approaching Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo levels of nomenclature.
10:59:39 <Vorpal> well I read the caps successfully and it returned what I expected, that just lists the name of it though
11:00:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, USB is having the same issue
11:00:45 <Vorpal> why do they keep inventing names like that for USB. Everybody just calls it USB2 or USB3
11:02:20 <nortti> Vorpal: have you ever looked at display resolution names
11:02:34 <fizzie> I thought the video capture interface had a separate query-capabilities thing, but maybe it just has the really awkward thing where you probe with VIDIOC_TRY_FMT to find how high you can go.
11:05:49 <Vorpal> nortti, yes. I tried to forget I did.
11:06:04 <Vorpal> nortti, it was okay when it was VGA and SVGA. Then it got absurd
11:06:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I'm looking at the general capability thing so far only
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11:06:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want to use it anyway to find out why I have so many /dev/video*
11:07:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: How many is so many?
11:07:09 <Vorpal> one is output of some sort, since the android window compositor (called surfaceflinger) has it open
11:07:28 <Vorpal> /dev/video0 /dev/video11 /dev/video16 /dev/video20
11:07:28 <Vorpal> /dev/video1 /dev/video12 /dev/video2 /dev/video3
11:08:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is the /sys info about them: http://sprunge.us/WCjS
11:08:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, video0 is the back camera, video1 is the user facing camera
11:08:41 <Vorpal> surfaceflinger uses video2 and video16
11:08:41 <fizzie> Which one is the one the window compositor has open?
11:09:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea what those virtual ones are
11:09:11 <nortti> Vorpal: what is wrong with WHUXGA (Wide Hexadecatuple Ultra Extender Graphics Array)?
11:09:53 <fizzie> One of them could be a V4L2 video overlay thing, I suppose. Though I'm not so sure why.
11:10:36 <itidus21> well WHUXGA, es un estndar de pantalla que puede soportar una resolucin mxima de 7680 4800 pixels, con una relacin de 16:10!
11:11:04 <itidus21> Un monitor de 7680 4320, podra considerarse tambin como un WHUXGA
11:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, video11 driver is s5p-jpeg
11:12:49 <Vorpal> video16 driver is s5p-tvout-tvif
11:13:02 <Vorpal> card is "Samsung TVOUT TV Interface"
11:13:24 <fizzie> There's only a video0 and video1 on the N900; I suppose corresponding to the front and back cameras.
11:13:35 <fizzie> I suppose the TV-out is handled differently.
11:13:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, video20 is s5p-tvout-vo, and "Samsung TVOUT Video Overlay"
11:14:03 <Vorpal> other than the tv out stuff, none of the devices reported useful "card" values
11:14:22 <Vorpal> either just the same as the driver name, or something similar
11:14:43 <itidus21> WHUXGA is a display standard that can support a resolution maximum of 7680 x 4800 pixels , with a ratio of 16:10. A monitor of 7680 4320, could also be considered as a WHUXGA
11:14:55 <itidus21> hmm google translate did really well on that
11:15:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/XWQe (haven't written code to decode capabilities yet)
11:15:57 <Vorpal> how did you stringify arguments in CPP now again
11:16:27 <fizzie> (Curse my proper punctuation.)
11:18:51 <itidus21> english hasn't really prepared itself for having notations embedded within it
11:20:45 <Vorpal> huh, I guess the cross compiler header doesn't match my system header
11:20:53 <Vorpal> some defines give errors
11:21:20 <Vorpal> right, it is different, stripped of all comments for a start
11:22:13 <itidus21> So Chuck says, ""Hello, world", and then he quotes me as saying "Chuck, I want you to print "Hello, world!"""
11:22:13 <fizzie> Optomized for compilation speed. :p
11:22:29 <fizzie> Those capabilities are kinda weird if I look at my own <linux/videodev2.h>. The 0x40000000 and 0x08 bits that most of them have don't match anything, and they all have V4L2_CAP_VBI_CAPTURE and V4L2_CAP_VBI_OUTPUT set, which sounds pretty strange.
11:22:30 <itidus21> but i think what i just said doesn't count as good writing
11:22:50 <Vorpal> my phone has a newer kernel than my desktop. But I guess the header might be older, from whatever oldest version the NDK supports
11:24:59 <fizzie> You're supposed to alternate between " and ' when nesting quotations in English, I believe.
11:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/cQTO
11:26:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities.
11:26:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is overlay in v4l context?
11:26:51 <Vorpal> anyway I guess it might be that the driver claims that
11:27:09 <Vorpal> since the s3c-fimc seems to handle both input and output devices
11:27:41 <fizzie> It's a thing that can be used to write video into a graphics card's screen. A bit like XVideo except done at the V4L level.
11:28:05 <Vorpal> hm I need to test something then
11:29:11 <Vorpal> aha, playing a video with the built in video player makes the mediaserver process open video3
11:29:52 <Vorpal> I see no difference from the lsof point of view if I use full screen video or "floating window" video
11:30:23 <Vorpal> same thing happens when I open a video in vlc for android
11:30:42 <Vorpal> can't test floating window for it, since it lacks that feature
11:31:11 <fizzie> Well, the overlay API can specify a window position and size, so it should be pretty same for floating or fullscreen, if it's using that directly.
11:31:47 <Vorpal> both use hardware acceleration anyway, iirc vlc has an option to turn that off, might try that
11:32:13 <Vorpal> yeah it doesn't open video3 then
11:32:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I wonder what those high bits in the caps are
11:33:31 <Vorpal> those are accounted for
11:33:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities. <-- which device do you mean?
11:34:19 <fizzie> All of them, pretty much. 0x4000007d has 7 set bits but only four outputs.
11:34:37 <fizzie> And 0x2d has five set bits but only one decoded line.
11:34:48 <fizzie> s/five/four/ I can't count.
11:35:06 <Vorpal> also the stuff doesn't match
11:35:32 <kallisti> itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english
11:35:39 <Vorpal> 0x4000007d decodes to include V4L2_CAP_STREAMING, but that is 0x4000000 not 0x40000000
11:35:45 <kallisti> the notion itself doesn't even make sense.
11:35:52 <kallisti> notations are seperate from english
11:36:07 <kallisti> you could say that ASCII isn't prepared for "notations"
11:36:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, I assumed the numbers in your other header are different.
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11:36:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does that work then
11:36:38 <Vorpal> why does it report V4L2_CAP_STREAMING
11:36:51 <fizzie> I mean, the one you're using to compile, as opposed to the one I was looking at.
11:37:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, the one I'm using to compile matches my system one except a few defines are missing
11:37:22 <fizzie> That's kinda weird, then.
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11:37:45 <Vorpal> the d at the end is wrong
11:38:03 <fizzie> Well, that explains a lot. I *was* wondering about weird-looking numbers.
11:38:24 <Vorpal> I forgot that x wasn't a modifier for d
11:38:46 <fizzie> %od, for octo-decimal.
11:39:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, well %d as opposed to %u
11:39:22 <Vorpal> then you could do signed and unsigned %x and %o
11:39:51 <fizzie> There's the %i alias for %d to muddy the waters more.
11:40:04 <fizzie> (And the subtle difference for %i and %d for *scanf.)
11:41:21 <Vorpal> what is that difference?
11:42:37 <Vorpal> now to figure out the various capture queries
11:43:34 <fizzie> %d is explicitly decimal, but %i is like base 0 for strtol, so you can type in 0123/0x123 for octal/hex.
11:45:07 <Vorpal> I tend to avoid the scanf family of functions, never liked that interface. And error handling is too much of a pain with it
11:45:32 <fizzie> It's quite bad. Especially for any line-oriented input, since it tends to leave the newline if things fail.
11:45:48 <fizzie> A getline-style thing followed by sscanf could work for something, though.
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11:46:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how to control the flash btw?
11:46:50 <fizzie> None whatsoever. It's not a standard-standard V4L thing, since it's not really camera-oriented at all. It could be some sort of a common extension, though.
11:47:44 <fizzie> Even the way of doing "take a picture" (i.e. get a single high-resolution frame) isn't really a V4L thing, though I suppose it can be just a "switch formats, read one frame, switch back" thing.
11:47:57 <fizzie> Also I don't know about focus control.
11:49:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that might be easier to figure out once I get the hang of the general v4l interface
11:51:45 <Vorpal> well I understand why android uses a user space daemon for camera access now. The API doesn't look multitask friendly at all
11:51:46 <fizzie> All your devices apparently deal with the V4L2_CAP_STREAMING way of IO, so you'll need to bother with that too. (You never read(2) anything; you just VIDIOC_REQBUFS some suitable buffers, then mmap them, and the device will communicate data that way.
11:52:49 <Vorpal> that explains the lack of read() then
11:53:14 <itidus21> <kallisti> itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english -- <fizzie> #. <fizzie> ## is token-pasting. <Vorpal> #. or just #? <fizzie> Just '#'. <Vorpal> ah <fizzie> (Curse my proper punctuation.)
11:54:26 <kallisti> I'm not actually paying attention
11:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the mmap style of interface makes sense when you are dealing with 8MP images
11:55:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I like this page: http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/spec/x5950.htm
11:55:34 <fizzie> It makes sense for video in general, thanks to having to move lots of frames.
11:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't matter for a 320x280 or whatever webcam though
11:56:05 <Vorpal> I think I have such a device around somewhere
11:56:15 <Vorpal> one of those quickcam thingies (USB one)
11:56:17 <fizzie> 320x240 sounds more likely.
11:56:36 <Vorpal> it had a triangular base
11:57:14 <fizzie> I have a very cheap USB webcam somewhere, but it does do 640x480 at least.
11:57:50 <itidus21> ZGA is when zzo finally decides to do a movie player for NES
11:59:25 <Vorpal> well mine might do 640x480
11:59:53 <fizzie> Ohhhh, 640x360 is called "nHD" because it's one ninth of a 16:9 1080p frame. I wondered about the name at some point.
12:01:03 <fizzie> "HD" as a term is such a mess, too, since you never know whether it means 720p or 1080p.
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12:06:58 <Vorpal> "To query the current image format applications set the type field of a struct v4l2_format to V4L2_BUF_TYPE_VIDEO_CAPTURE and call the VIDIOC_G_FMT ioctl with a pointer to this structure. Drivers fill the struct v4l2_pix_format pix member of the fmt union."
12:07:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I heard talk about 4096p in the future. Presumably HD as well
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12:08:59 <fizzie> Well, they have that "4K" 3840×2160 for which screens exist, and the proposed "8K" 7680×4320 thing.
12:10:09 <fizzie> I don't really know why it's called that.
12:10:15 <fizzie> QFHD is I guess the "proper name".
12:10:29 <fizzie> It's twice the "full-HD" 1920x1080 in both dimensions.
12:10:49 <itidus21> hd seems to mean twice the width resolution as a svga monitor, but the size of a tv and price of $5000 at first
12:11:17 <fizzie> If you count pixels, it's in the same ballpark as the 4K digital cinema formats.
12:11:24 <fizzie> Which aren't all 4096 pixels wide either.
12:12:32 <itidus21> i kinda feel sorry for all the people for whom a hdtv was luxury for a few years and along came cheaper
12:13:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, fun thing: the format query only works right after I close the camera app. Presumably the camera enters some sort of sleep mode very quickly
12:13:29 <Vorpal> how the hell do I deal with that...
12:13:37 <Vorpal> time to strace I guess
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12:14:12 <fizzie> Presumably it will stay open if you open the device and set a format, then keep doing stuff.
12:14:36 <fizzie> Anyway, even querying the current format will probably only give you the preview stream sizes.
12:15:06 <fizzie> At least on the N900, the same video0 interface is used for the preview video and the full-frame capture.
12:16:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure but I have to start somewhere
12:16:24 <Vorpal> and yes it game me some sizes that seemed reasonable for preview: 960x720
12:17:10 <Vorpal> hm strace on mediaserver didn't do what I intended... it gave I/O errors this time
12:18:29 <fizzie> I remember reading something about the long-ish (half a second?) shutter lag of the N900 coming from the lag of switching capture resolution from the viewfinder size to the full-frame size and resetting things in the process.
12:18:50 <fizzie> Apparently once it gets going, you can stream full-frame images at 10fps, assuming you had a place where to put them.
12:19:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know what, it doesn't ever call open. Yet the device is suddenly open
12:19:07 <Vorpal> any idea how else you could get an fd to a device
12:19:27 <fizzie> You could receive a fd over Unix socekts, but that sounds quite unlikely.
12:19:27 <Vorpal> because yes, according to /proc it is not there before but then it is open while the camera app is running
12:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what system calls are involved in that?
12:20:50 <fizzie> Uh... depends on whether the socket is kept permanently open. If it is, then it's just a sendmsg/recvmsg at least code-wise.
12:20:55 <fizzie> Don't know what it is under the hood.
12:21:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, does strace follow thread forks?
12:21:47 <fizzie> I would assume so, but I'm not sure. It has that -f for following child processes from fork(2).
12:22:05 <Vorpal> right, this thing calls clone() with arguments to create threads
12:22:29 <Vorpal> it seems to use msgget at lot
12:23:31 <fizzie> Yes. I don't know if there's some other IPC mechanism that can send credentials, other than Unix sockets. (And I'm not sure if I've ever seen that happen either, though I have a vague feeling that perhaps maybe once.)
12:23:47 <Vorpal> maybe that isn't a syscall
12:24:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe some of the android specific IPC thingies?
12:24:24 <Vorpal> there is that binder thing I guess
12:24:30 <Vorpal> not sure what syscalls that expose
12:26:46 <fizzie> I have vague recollections that Linux grouped a lot of socket syscalls into one, but also that strace unentangles them again.
12:27:04 <fizzie> If you see recv as standalone, probably so.
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12:28:48 <fizzie> MSG_OOB is a curious thing to do, even if it's not related. Can you see what kind of socket it is that it does that to?
12:29:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, socket ids are just fds right?
12:30:19 <fizzie> (So you can get new fds from socket(2) too, but probably not the video device.)
12:30:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, and first argument of the syscall is the fd?
12:30:36 <Vorpal> then uh, either strace is broken or wtf
12:31:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, socket 11348704 once, then 11348700 and then other numbers of that magnitude
12:31:29 <Vorpal> and they don't match anything open
12:31:41 <Vorpal> that I can see at least
12:32:00 <fizzie> Systems nowadays are so complicated. :/
12:32:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it seems that these are the ones strace gave I/O errors on
12:32:46 <Vorpal> specifically: "ptrace: umoven: I/O error"
12:33:12 <Vorpal> yes, doing &> instead of -o puts that error inside the log of those calls
12:33:24 <Vorpal> I wonder what is wrong
12:34:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, none of the other arguments it recorded look relevant at all
12:34:35 <Vorpal> or what is the value of MSG_OOB?
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12:37:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea what /dev/ashmem is?
12:37:32 <Vorpal> this thing has a lot of copies of that open
12:38:24 <fizzie> http://elinux.org/Android_Kernel_Features says it's "similar to POSIX SHM but with different behavior and sporting a simpler file-based API".
12:39:24 <Vorpal> "As a remedy the present version of the V4L2 API relaxed the concept of device types with specific names and minor numbers. For compatibility with old applications drivers must still register different minor numbers to assign a default function to the device. But if related functions are supported by the driver they must be available under all registered minor numbers. The desired function can be select
12:39:24 <Vorpal> ed after opening the device as described in Chapter 4."
12:39:34 <Vorpal> that could explain why everything reported every feature
12:40:03 <fizzie> Also it doesn't sound impossible that the binder thing is responsible for some of the weirdness.
12:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc binder has been merged in to vanilla as of 3.4 or 3.5 or some such
12:40:35 <Vorpal> probably under staging drivers or such
12:41:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway if every device support every feature, then why does /dev/video0 and /dev/video1 both correspond to the same driver and presumably controller device, but represent different cameras
12:43:05 <fizzie> I suppose a single driver can still have different minor numbers that expose different cameras. It just says "if related functions are supported"; capturing from different cameras aren't so related.
12:43:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm there is /dev/binder opened as fd 3, and there were a lot of ioctls done on that
12:44:12 <Vorpal> apart from that 78 and 80. Which were the cameras that were never opened?
12:44:23 <fizzie> In the old way you used to have /dev/video0 and /dev/vbi0 and whatnot related to the same card (with different minor numbers), and I suppose what your quotation means is just that you can nowadays do all that on the /dev/video0.
12:44:30 <Sgeo_> I feel like I'm not smart enough to see a third option between global variables and OO
12:44:35 <Vorpal> oh wait, 80 was the camera
12:45:10 <Vorpal> (I don't know if you can do that)
12:45:12 <fizzie> I don't know anything about binder, so I don't know if it could cause a sneaky file-opening.
12:45:21 <Vorpal> (given that it is tcl, you probably could emulate it)
12:45:28 <fizzie> $ ls -l /dev/{vbi,video}*
12:45:28 <fizzie> crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 1 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/vbi0
12:45:28 <fizzie> crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 0 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/video0
12:45:33 <fizzie> These are actually the same device.
12:45:47 <fizzie> Even though they have different minor numbers.
12:46:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, what was that '+' there in the mode?
12:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, ACL I think? Maybe?
12:47:35 <fizzie> That would make sense.
12:47:47 <Vorpal> does tmpfs even do ACL?
12:47:57 <Vorpal> check mount to see if ACL is mentionedf
12:48:07 <Vorpal> or anything else of that sort
12:48:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, could perhaps be selinux or similar as well
12:49:04 <Vorpal> well the binder.h file has an enum value called TF_ACCEPT_FDS
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12:50:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Posix ACLs were a good guess, there's an extra "user:fis:rw-" entry according to getfacl. (No idea what sets that up.)
12:50:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, consolekit I would /guess/
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12:51:14 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:51:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some not too new Ubuntu.
12:52:03 <Vorpal> my ubuntu doesn't do that for other devices at least
12:52:12 <Vorpal> don't have any video* on it
12:52:49 <fizzie> (This is an old PCI analog-TV card that I don't use for anything at all.)
12:53:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it looks like it might be possible to send fds over binder
12:53:50 <Vorpal> can't really find any docs on it
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13:13:32 <fizzie> http://www.androidenea.com/2010/03/share-memory-using-ashmem-and-binder-in.html "The solution is to share the file descriptor with the binder since the binder has special functions that can be used to transfer file descriptors over it's interface."
13:13:42 <fizzie> (It's for how to share ashmem blocks between processes.)
13:13:45 <fizzie> I guess it could be that.
13:15:08 <Vorpal> I wonder where that device was opened then
13:15:24 <Vorpal> since it isn't open in the background
13:17:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how to find out which groups a running process is a member of?
13:17:22 <Vorpal> my guess is that perhaps mediaserver doesn't have the proper permissions to open /dev/video0 directly
13:18:19 <fizzie> It's in /proc/<pid>/status.
13:18:27 <fizzie> "Gid" and "Groups" for the supplementary groups list.
13:18:51 <fizzie> ("Gid" list is the usual suspects, real/effective/saved/fs.)
13:18:52 <Vorpal> yeah, wrong user and wrong groups for the file
13:19:15 <Vorpal> annoying that android doesn't have /etc/passwd
13:19:25 <Vorpal> hard to map these values to anything meaningful
13:19:48 <Vorpal> mediaserver is in 8 different groups
13:21:45 <fizzie> And speaking of ACLs in /dev, I've got '+'s for /dev/{kvm,rfkill,sg3,sr0,vbi0,video0}.
13:22:05 <Vorpal> oh I have that for sr0
13:22:47 <fizzie> (sg3 is the sg corresponding to sr0 here.)
13:22:51 <Vorpal> adsp, audio, dsp, mixer, rfkill, sequencer, sequencer2, sr0
13:24:00 <fizzie> Oh, right, ~everything in /dev/snd/ too. (Only looked at top level, don't have any audio things there apparently.)
13:24:32 <Vorpal> let me check recursively
13:25:20 <Vorpal> everything in /dev/snd, some stuff in /dev/input (far from all) and /dev/dri/card0
13:25:42 <Vorpal> and in /dev/input those are event9 to event12
13:25:53 <Vorpal> what are /dev/input/event* btw?
13:26:38 <Vorpal> arvid@dragon ~ $ LC_ALL=C getfacl /dev/dri/card0
13:26:39 <Vorpal> getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names
13:27:43 <fizzie> /dev/input/event* are the generic (as opposed to type-specific, like js/mouse/whatever) interface to input devices, though all kinds of things seem to end up as input devices these days.
13:27:53 <Vorpal> Do not strip leading slash characters (`/'). The default behavior is to strip leading slash characters.
13:27:58 <Vorpal> okay that doesn't help...
13:28:04 <fizzie> Power buttons and whatnot.
13:28:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, those are ACPI things
13:28:59 <fizzie> /sys/class/input/event0 here is /sys/devices/LNXSYSTM:00/device:00/PNP0C0C:00/input/input0/event0 for example.
13:29:06 <fizzie> Don't know what comes in that way.
13:29:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you figure out that mapping?
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13:30:14 <Vorpal> I was looking under /sys/dev/char and couldn't find the device
13:30:19 <Vorpal> why is /sys/dev/char incomplete
13:33:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZbhM -- two power buttons for some reason.
13:34:14 <fizzie> And the keyboard has two event devices for it.
13:35:12 <fizzie> Still, that's quite a short list by modern standards; compare the laptop: http://sprunge.us/bSfF
13:36:43 <fizzie> There's things like event6 "BisonCam, NB Pro", "usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.6/button" even though the (built-in) webcam doesn't have any sort of button exposed.
13:38:09 <fizzie> I don't know what all those "HDMI/DP,pcm=X" EV_SW (switch) type things are either.
13:38:55 <Vorpal> installing lsinput now
13:39:18 <Vorpal> protocol version mismatch (expected 65536, got 65537)
13:39:21 <Vorpal> well that was interesting
13:39:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have a custom kernel though to work around some issues with wifi monitor mode
13:47:55 <fizzie> I don't know what that second device of the keyboard is doing. 'input-events' dumping says all regular keypresses come in via the first one. And the second one has EV_REL EV_ABS (relative and absolute motion events) listed in the types, which sounds a bit strange for a keyboard.
13:48:55 <fizzie> Oh, the multimedia keys use the other device.
13:51:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, multimedia keys are often done by ACPI iirc
13:55:37 <fizzie> This is a separate USB keyboard, though.
13:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting note: there is no speed difference between grep "constant string" and grep -F "constant string", but there is a large if you add -i to those
13:56:03 <Vorpal> grep -Fi is much faster than grep -i
13:56:31 <Vorpal> (checked by grep -Ri / grep -RFi on kernel sources)
13:57:39 <fizzie> According to lsusb, the keyboard is also a mouse: http://sprunge.us/QEiE
13:59:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, fancy keyboard
14:00:11 <fizzie> Based on matching the lsusb bInterfaceNumber and sysfs stuff, it's the mouse that is reporting all the multimedia key events.
14:00:37 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a good reason.
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14:42:16 <Taneb> Is it bad that I've just figured out how to make the thingy on the left hand side of the screen on Ubuntu appear?
14:44:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, what are you talking about?
14:45:50 <fizzie> The thing that's in Unity, I suppose.
14:46:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unity_5.12_on_Ubuntu_12.04.png
14:47:29 <fizzie> I don't know how to make it appear either, but it might be different if you've actually been using it.
14:48:00 <Taneb> Yeah, Ubuntu's my primary OS
14:48:43 <fizzie> It's mine, too, but despite all their efforts, Unity != Ubuntu quite yet.
14:49:01 <Vorpal> I'm going xubuntu on next LTS release
14:49:13 <Taneb> And I can't really be bothered to switch to GNOME or X or CLI or whatever
14:49:26 <Vorpal> well the new LTS is out, but not for upgrading from last LTS yet
14:49:32 <elliott> Taneb: you've used unity for months and only now figure out how to launch applications from it?
14:49:46 <Vorpal> it won't notify me about that until the first point release of the new LTS
14:49:47 <Taneb> elliott, nah, I just used to press flag to bring the whole thing up
14:50:37 <Taneb> It's got a picture of a flag on it
14:50:45 <Taneb> Preview of program I'm writing: S I I (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K (S (S K K))) K)))) (K K))))) (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K)))))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) S)) (K (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K))))))) (K I) I
14:51:23 <Taneb> This one, however, will be EFFICIENT ish
14:51:35 <Taneb> Actually, it probably won't be
14:54:56 <nortti> Taneb: pure SKI or LazyK? also what it does?
14:55:19 <Taneb> Infinite list of fibonacci numbers, I hope
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15:06:14 <Taneb> I've got some pretty epic type errors
15:06:23 <Taneb> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
15:06:23 <Taneb> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:24 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0
15:06:26 <Taneb> Expected type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:28 <Taneb> -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0)
15:06:30 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0
15:06:32 <Taneb> Actual type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:34 <Taneb> -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0)
15:06:36 <Taneb> -> (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:38 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:40 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:44 <Taneb> In the first argument of `k', namely `s'
15:06:46 <Taneb> In the first argument of `s', namely `(k s)'
15:06:48 <Taneb> I should really keep my working
15:10:25 <kallisti> elliott: what does black pudding taste like
15:11:05 <elliott> i have no intentions of ever tasting black pudding
15:11:18 <kallisti> because it looks like it would taste like disgusting cooked congealed blood with random shit stuffed in it.
15:11:37 <ais523> Taneb: SKI doesn't type in Hindley-Milner
15:11:37 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:11:43 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 1h 37m ago: <bhaak> ais is always surprising <bhaak> i wish i had a twisted mind like his at my disposal <bhaak> like a brain-in-a-jar or something like that
15:11:48 <Taneb> ais523, it does if you're insane
15:12:09 * kallisti made the Y combinator in Haskell with the help of unsafe coerces
15:12:23 * Taneb made a factorial program based on that
15:12:28 <Taneb> Maybe you've seen it
15:12:45 <ais523> kallisti: then you're not really in Hindley-Milner any more
15:13:00 <kallisti> but I was still surprised that GHC's runtime knew what to do with my code.
15:13:25 <Taneb> kallisti, you've got exactly the opposite mindset to me
15:13:40 <Taneb> I'm surprised when it core-dumps when I try to use 10 as a function
15:13:50 <ais523> why is that surprising at all?
15:14:12 <ais523> if you're unsafely coercing things, you'd expect trying to use 10 as a function to attempt to call a function in the eleventh memory location
15:14:34 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure how unsafeCoerce works
15:14:36 <Taneb> It's kinda magic to me
15:14:42 <elliott> pretty sure unsafeCoerce 10 :: functiontype will interpret 10 :: Integer
15:14:52 <elliott> so it'll be a pointer still
15:15:06 <ais523> it'll attempt to call a block of memory, as a function, that contains a bignum representation of 10
15:15:17 <ais523> huh, couldn't you use that mechanism to run arbitrary asm
15:15:29 <elliott> ais523: functoins are more than just funptrs, obviously.
15:15:36 <kallisti> it needs to be in the same format
15:15:36 <Taneb> Are you INSANE ENOUGH TOO!?
15:15:40 <elliott> i would expect it to just give an RTS error
15:15:55 <ais523> but you can probably find a block of memory that's a closure/bignum polyglot
15:16:11 <ais523> because a good bignum representation will use pretty much every possible byte sequence
15:16:27 <elliott> ais523: only if you don't understand how stg works
15:16:40 <elliott> there is a standard object format in GHC
15:17:01 <kallisti> I guess the byte sequence would need to point at things that /actually/ exist though
15:17:58 <kallisti> isn't there more than one level of indirection?
15:18:15 <kallisti> the first section of the closure points to a structure that contains all the free variables.
15:19:45 <kmc> the first word in a closure points to the info table
15:19:50 <kmc> the rest of the words *are* the free variables
15:20:19 <kallisti> and the info table contains the function pointer?
15:20:50 <kmc> with the tables next to code optimization, the info table pointer is the function pointer
15:20:56 <kmc> and the info table itself appears immediately before the function
15:21:00 <kallisti> serves me right for only half-assedly reading papers about STF.
15:21:09 <kmc> because jumping to that function is by far the most common operation you do with the info ptr
15:21:47 <kallisti> so the function pointer is basically the first field of the info table.
15:22:19 <kallisti> and C cast magic makes it so that you can jump to the function pointer without the extra level of indirection.
15:22:42 <kmc> if the function pointer is the first field of the info table, you still need to dereference twice
15:22:57 <kmc> with tables next to code, the info table appears immediately before the function code in memory
15:23:17 <kmc> and the closures store a pointer to that function code
15:23:29 <kmc> so that calling the function is accomplished through a single indirect jump
15:23:44 <kmc> and doing other things with the info table requires that you subtract the table size from the function pointer
15:23:57 <kmc> this is a weird thing to do, interleaving data and code
15:24:01 <kmc> some tools like LLVM have trouble with it
15:24:05 <kmc> but it makes sense
15:24:21 <kmc> if you disassemble a GHC produced binary you will see these tables in the .text segment
15:26:17 <kallisti> it's not weird, it's just an efficient memory layout.
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15:27:16 <nortti> what is wrong with this code?
15:27:17 <nortti> #define ML_GETINT(x) \
15:27:17 <nortti> ptr = strtok(NULL, " "); if(!ptr) break; \
15:27:43 <nortti> I get error: error: pasting "." and "HDisplay" does not give a valid preprocessing token
15:28:05 <kmc> i think you don't want paste there
15:28:09 <kmc> just mmt.x
15:28:24 <nortti> it is part of svgalib code
15:28:47 <kmc> kallisti: to preprocess «foo##bar», you preprocess foo and bar, and then concatencate the results into a single token
15:29:06 <kmc> used to e.g. prefix variable names with some standard prefix within a macro
15:29:52 <kallisti> ah. I thought CPP was just simple text substition. didn't realize it worked at a token level.
15:30:17 <kmc> yeah, it won't substitute within a single word
15:30:27 <kmc> if you #define foo to something, a variable named foobar is left alone
15:31:02 * kallisti learns something new about C everytime it's brought up .
15:31:17 <kallisti> probably because I haven't read a legitimate resource on it.
15:31:35 <kallisti> just countless shitty C tutorials that appear prominently on google searches.
15:31:48 <fizzie> I've seen some other piece of code use token-pasting for member access, though. Perhaps it has worked in one compiler or another.
15:33:20 <nortti> umh. src/vgamisc.c:50: static void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer; src/vgabg.h:30: void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer;
15:33:37 <nortti> how do they ever get svgalib to compile?
15:33:52 <fizzie> I haven't seen much svgalib users lately.
15:35:14 <fizzie> "However, two tokens that don't together form a valid token cannot be pasted together. For example, you cannot concatenate x with + in either order. If you try, the preprocessor issues a warning and emits the two tokens. Whether it puts white space between the tokens is undefined. It is common to find unnecessary uses of `##' in complex macros. If you get this warning, it is likely that you ...
15:35:20 <fizzie> ... can simply remove the `##'."
15:36:14 <fizzie> I suppose spurious ##s have been mostly used with compilers that are silent and just produce the two tokens.
15:37:36 <fizzie> "I've just installed gcc 3.2.2 and I get the warning [in question] when compiling code that worked just fine with 2.95.3." Yeah.
15:38:23 <nortti> getting svgalib to compile with gcc 4.5 is huge pain in the ass
15:38:40 <fizzie> That is not a terrible surprise.
15:38:47 <fizzie> Perhaps it would compile just fine with gcc 2.95.
15:39:16 <fizzie> Are you sure someone hasn't already done the required pain, though? People do the strangest things.
15:39:43 <nortti> I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced
15:40:12 <fizzie> There's e.g. a file called "svgalib-1.9.19-gcc4.patch" in the Gentoo svgalib ebuild.
15:41:03 <nortti> how do I access gentoo ebuild with slitaz?
15:41:24 <fizzie> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/media-libs/svgalib/files/ for example.
15:41:42 <fizzie> Though interestingly I'm not seeing the gcc-4 patch there.
15:41:50 <fizzie> (The changelog promised one.)
15:41:56 <fizzie> Which svgalib you're compiling, anyway?
15:43:04 <fizzie> Though it's going to be different and all that.
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16:14:20 <Vorpal> nortti, what does svgalib even do?
16:15:04 <Vorpal> <nortti> I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced <-- I have run into that problem when doing a gcc 3.x cross compiler
16:15:17 <Vorpal> had to compile gcc 3.x native with gcc 4.1 or something like that first
16:15:31 <Vorpal> and had to build gcc 4.1 with 4.6 which was what my system had
16:27:46 <elliott> did they ever fix the thing in minecraft where
16:27:50 <elliott> if you use a bed in the nether it just explodes
16:29:20 <Taneb> I don't think that was a thing that was to be fixed
16:29:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a feature, not a bug
16:29:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not supposed to be able to sleep in the nether
16:35:44 <elliott> i mean "fix" as in "make less silly"
16:36:13 <Vorpal> how would you make it less silly?
16:36:26 <elliott> an explosion is pretty silly!!!
16:36:40 <Vorpal> yeah they should totally remove TNT and creepers too
16:37:04 <Taneb> I'm sort of on the fence on this issue
16:37:10 <Taneb> Exploding beds is rather silly
16:37:44 <Taneb> But it's more fun than a message saying "The eery whispers trapped beneath your pillow won't let you sleep"
16:37:52 <Vorpal> I don't think it is all that silly for sleeping in the nether. Better than an arbitrary "you can't rest here"
16:38:51 <Vorpal> speaking of which, does vanilla minecraft still do "you can't sleep while there are monsters nearby"?
16:39:10 <Vorpal> what does it do instead
16:39:31 <Taneb> I can't test it out atm
16:39:43 <Taneb> New computer, still setting up
16:39:51 <Taneb> I haven't got Java installed yet
16:40:11 <Vorpal> I play with a mod called Somnia that basically simulates the entire night (but without rendering it and trying to run the simulation as fast as possible, so generally it takes less than half a minute to simulate an entire night, or day)
16:40:14 <elliott> beds are cheaper than tnt right
16:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but the issue is, you will be at the centre of the explosion
16:40:44 <Vorpal> unlike with TNT where you can be at a distance
16:40:54 <elliott> you can activate them from a fair range i think
16:41:20 <Vorpal> I believe it moves you to the bed first though
16:41:28 <Vorpal> try it out though, I don't know for sure
16:42:32 <Vorpal> why must iptables be so complicated
16:42:56 <Vorpal> like, does anyone know what a match on !lo+ means for the in-interface value?
16:43:09 <Vorpal> I guess "not lo+" but I don't know what the + does to "lo"
16:43:09 <Taneb> You could say "Oi, Phantom_Hoover! Go lie down on that bed there! I wanna test whether this explosion prevention mechanism works or not!"
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16:44:05 <Vorpal> Ease of use and flexibility: You can't have both
16:45:06 <Vorpal> or well, lets say you can't have both something that is easy to master and also flexible. And making something that is easy to use and flexible is not easy
16:45:27 <Vorpal> s/both something that is/something that is both/
16:45:54 <ion> Someone mistyped os:timestamp/0 as os:timestampe/0. I got kickse out of that.
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16:46:32 <Vorpal> ion, not in my erl -man os?
16:46:35 <Vorpal> which version has that
16:46:51 <Vorpal> I might have forgot to keep up-to-date on it
16:47:00 <ion> I have Erlang R14B04 (erts-5.8.5) [source] [64-bit] [smp:4:4] [rq:4] [async-threads:0] [kernel-poll:false]
16:47:09 <ion> Probably not up do date at all, it’s the Ubuntu 12.04 package.
16:47:24 <ion> (and it does have timestampe in -man os)
16:47:31 <Vorpal> looks like R15B01 is out
16:48:24 <Vorpal> ion, I suspect that they will deprecate the typo when they find it, then keep it around for about 2 major versions for compatibility
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16:52:54 <Vorpal> ion, what are you writing in erlang?
16:53:16 <ion> vorpal: Not anything at the moment.
16:53:37 <ion> Actually, not anything for a long time.
16:53:45 <Vorpal> ion, hm why is my os:timestamp/0 correctly spelled in R14B03 then if your R14B04 is typoed
16:54:55 <ion> vorpal: Ah, we both seem to have misunderstood each other. :-) I thought you knew i was kidding when i said -man os has “timestampe” and i thought you were continuing the joke when you said they’ll keep it for compatibility.
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16:57:47 <Vorpal> ion, where was it typoed then?
16:58:13 <Vorpal> ion, anyway if they did typo the function name they would seriously keep it around like that
16:58:46 <Vorpal> I'm not kidding, I remember them doing that for something around R12 or R11
16:59:05 <ion> vorpal: Yes, i know you’re not kidding. :-)
16:59:10 <ion> vorpal: (HTTP)
16:59:12 <Vorpal> elliott, which standard was that?
16:59:58 <ion> That typo has saved the world a countless amount of bandwidth over the years.
17:02:29 <Vorpal> can we estimate the number of HTTP requests world wide per time unit in any way
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17:02:43 <Vorpal> even a low estimate would be interesting
17:03:04 <Vorpal> how many people with internet is there approx?
17:04:19 <elliott> something like a billion, IIRC
17:04:47 <Vorpal> hm estimated in 2010 to be 35% in 2011 is the best number I can find
17:05:00 <Vorpal> out of approx 7 billion
17:06:08 <Vorpal> since background stuff (i.e. web services and similar) won't use referer most of the time probably we can discount such stuff
17:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, <img> and such causes referer right?
17:07:10 <elliott> i think that's how you do hotlink prevention
17:07:59 <nortti> 19:14 < Vorpal> nortti, what does svgalib even do? // svgalib provides programs a way to set and use (s)vga video modes
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17:08:39 <Vorpal> so lets say 2 billion people to be on the safe side. Each visiting 5 pages per day (low arbitrary number). None of them with referer. Each having maybe 10 images, javascripts, css files and so on. Then we get 2 billion * 10
17:08:58 <Vorpal> billion is 10^9 in English right?
17:09:49 <itidus21> it's better to waste the internet bandwidth by running it inefficiently than letting criminals control it
17:09:53 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes
17:10:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, completely unrelated to current discussion
17:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, how do I use frink
17:10:41 <oklopol> "10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes"
17:10:59 <Vorpal> `frink "10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes"
17:11:01 <itidus21> ok, well for instance, i reload say 40 pages when i restart.. often on account of firefox memory leaks
17:11:07 <HackEgo> 10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes
17:11:20 <Vorpal> I don't remember the syntax for frink
17:11:24 <itidus21> so.. i waste bandwidth for convenience
17:11:30 <oklopol> i have never heard of fronk
17:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, WOLFRAM ALPHA WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD ME!
17:11:42 <nortti> cc -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fomit-frame-pointer -O2 -fno-strength-reduce -pipe -I../include -L../sharedlib -s -o restorefont restorefont.o -lvga -lm
17:11:45 <nortti> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lvga
17:11:46 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gigabytes
17:11:59 <nortti> shouldn't -lvga be before sourcw file?
17:12:03 <Vorpal> so 50 gb per day in this case
17:12:13 <Vorpal> and that is probably a low count
17:12:23 <Vorpal> in fact it is probably a very low count
17:12:27 <oklopol> apparently 50 billion in billions is 50
17:12:53 <oklopol> we need to inform the ministry of numbers
17:13:11 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gibibytes
17:13:21 <HackEgo> 48828125/1048576 (approx. 46.566128730773926)
17:13:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, it turns out it is in fact ~46.57
17:13:40 <oklopol> i think that's far less interesting
17:14:07 <Vorpal> anyway on the whole it doesn't save much
17:14:17 <oklopol> the ministry of numbers would be all like meh dude that's boring
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17:16:41 <fizzie> nortti: By convention, libraries after sources, because some linkers process command line left-to-right, and when encountering a "-lfoo" will only pull out from libfoo.a objects that resolve any as-yet unresolved symbols; so if you -lfoo first, nothing will get taken from the library.
17:17:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you need to start with the file containing main first then?
17:17:37 <Vorpal> as opposed to some other object file
17:17:49 <Vorpal> or is this just for libraries?
17:18:52 <Vorpal> btw I remember having to do -lx -ly -lx style sometime to resolve some complex semi-circular thing, since it didn't pull the entire libx.a, just what was needed from it
17:18:59 <Vorpal> and liby.a needed some other parts
17:19:15 <Vorpal> might not have been on a *nix system
17:19:44 <Vorpal> (and yes, liby was only pulled in from libx)
17:20:01 <fizzie> Just for libraries. If you give an object file, those tools will generally assume you want to link it regardless.
17:25:01 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/lib/libsearch.html
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18:48:32 <Taneb> Change of plans, bye
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19:05:16 <oerjan> 23:15:36: <shachaf> kmc: 16:15 <nobdraisentone> How can I convert `Maybe a` to `IO ()`?
19:05:19 <oerjan> 23:15:40: <shachaf> Refreshing, isn't it?
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19:20:29 <pikhq> Pulseaudio: the audio breaking daemon.
19:23:23 <fizzie> The "pulse" in the name refers to the fact that if you're exceedingly lucky, you might get short "pulses" of working audio when the planets align. (That said, this is a PulseAudio system and it has no trouble with the audio part either.)
19:23:49 <pikhq> I recently had a weird problem: mpd and only mpd could play audio.
19:23:56 <pikhq> I fixed it by removing pulseaudio.
19:24:38 <fizzie> I have PulseAudio in my phone, too. (A sad state of affairs?)
19:31:45 <fizzie> Speaking of audio, I'd also like if the laptop could partake in producing sound out of the stereo system, and there's an unused coax s/pdif wire already in cable channels between the laptop (approx) and the stereo... but the laptop does digital audio only via a 3.5mm jack that has a TOSLINK led behind the electric parts. The only TOSLINK cable I have is just 1m; and anyway from what I hear ...
19:31:51 <fizzie> ... TOSLINK cables only go up to about 5m well, and break if bent too sharply.
19:32:47 <fizzie> Last I looked at doing general-purpose network audio, things seemed very messy. Especially if Windows was involved.
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19:42:00 <shachaf> elliott: Look, an SO question! http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11707171/haskell-sub-typeclass-requires-undecidableinstances
19:42:04 <shachaf> I guess it's already been answered by now.
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20:20:13 <zzo38> Which (non-interactive) assemblers do you know that have an emulator built-in?
20:20:14 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:24:59 <lambdabot> Taneb said 10h 29m 48s ago: Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway
20:28:05 <fizzie> There are emulators/simulators with an assembler built-in; does that count?
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20:33:37 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know. Which ones do you mean?
20:34:01 <zzo38> I mean non-interactive systems so they might not count.
20:35:49 <fizzie> SPIM, the MIPS simulator, (IIRC) works so that you just give it an assembly source file, and it uses the integrated assembler to assemble it, then emulates a MIPS system to run the result. Though I suppose it also has an interactive debugger mode.
20:37:49 <zzo38> OK. What is then done by the result when emulated?
20:46:12 <fizzie> Nothing, really. I think you can inspect the contents of the memory afterwards, and the emulator has system calls that can produce output, which you can then inspect. (Come to think of it, I suppose it counts as interactive since I believe it has some input syscalls too, I've just never used them.)
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20:52:03 <oerjan> gah disconnections are back
20:52:37 <oerjan> and simultaneously ruining my theory that they were due to something my previous housemates were doing
20:53:27 <fizzie> Is that true? Do you know what your previous housemates are doing right now?
20:53:31 <fizzie> They might be doing the same things.
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21:10:39 <kmc> fizzie: I was hoping that would be "How do I find C libraries that aren't shit?"
21:22:35 <fizzie> I think asking people can be a profitable strategy, but even that has the slight problem that *someone* needs to wade through the bad ones.
21:23:49 <kmc> the real answer seems to be "don't use libraries, reinvent the wheel"
21:23:55 <kmc> make your own shit library
21:26:03 <zzo38> Sometimes that is the choice, but it also depend, what library are you trying to make? Maybe there is one.
21:28:29 <zzo38> I have added an emulator to the MagicKit assembler (which is used for NES/Famicom and PC-Engine), a 6502 code in the .EMU block will be executed after the assembler is finish before it make the output file, so you can use that to affect the output and some other things too.
21:30:26 <zzo38> (It is using a slightly modified version of lib6502; it suppresses the error message for illegal instructions.)
21:31:44 <zzo38> I would also like to know if there are assemblers for other systems which have similar feature.
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21:39:02 <itidus21> hmm.. i don't suppose i can do that
21:40:04 <zzo38> What kind of computers with 6502 did you want to program?
21:41:49 <itidus21> maybe it's another attempt at irony.
21:42:11 <itidus21> but its not ironic because BBC Micro is probably actually fun.. just found it on wikipedia
21:42:28 <itidus21> no.. the computer i have in mind is NES/Famicom
21:42:45 <zzo38> OK. What assembler did you want to use?
21:43:42 <itidus21> it's on my bucket list to: learn japanese, learn 6502 assembly language, finish reading akira manga, finish watching rurouni kenshin anime, ... bleh
21:44:06 <itidus21> zzo38: my first goal of 6502 is actually to help with reading the disassembly of super mario bros.
21:44:37 <zzo38> You would have to learn the system too, not only the 6502. Also, the NES/Famicom does not have decimal mode other than that it is the same 6502 including unofficial instructions.
21:45:11 <itidus21> it's a nice disassembly, i've peeked at it before
21:45:30 <itidus21> i think it's one of the few games that i actually care how they did it
21:46:41 <itidus21> perhaps also i need more patience
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21:54:07 <itidus21> zzo38: i will have to get around to it in my own time.. so many things to learn about hardware
21:54:57 <itidus21> such as.. how graphics accelration actually works in a modern pc
21:59:47 <itidus21> as i started to learn about blitters then, gradually i can see that something about my conception of a computer is too simple
22:02:03 <nortti_> what is your conception of a computer?
22:02:57 <zzo38> Have you ever read Akagi and Kaiji manga and anime?
22:06:22 <zzo38> I meant itidus21 but others too if you want to
22:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, just curious, have you ever moved past the "realising how little I know" stage and actually reached "learning more things"?
22:13:03 <kmc> at this point you could probably generalize some of the lessons about how little you know
22:13:20 <kmc> preemptively question the assumptions you make about how things work
22:13:22 <kmc> stuff like that
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22:15:51 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember a specific conversation we've had with iti where we try to explain something.
22:19:53 <zzo38> Is it proper in boxing to stay on the floor until they count to nine the second time you are knocked out in an attempt to avoid being TKO'd?
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22:23:50 <zzo38> Is there specifically a rule against it?
22:26:04 <zzo38> How do they enforce it?
22:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If you break the rule you're banned from punching people.
22:26:59 <zzo38> But how to they check if you are legitimately knocked out for that amount of time or not?
22:29:15 <zzo38> I do not know how they could do anything about it other than giving your opponent more points. But maybe I am wrong.
22:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They whallop you in the side when they reach nine and see if you cry out.
22:32:34 <zzo38> If they do that then you can instead get up just before they reach nine. Anyways if they do that, then if you are legitimately knocked out but would get up anyways then you may remain knocked out longer unfairly. And you could be able to learn self-control to decide by yourself to cry or not as much as you want.
22:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (I know nothing about boxing FWIW, that was all made up.)
22:41:28 <zzo38> I certainly did not believe "If you break the rule you're banned from punching people."; but that's all.
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22:59:28 <Sgeo_> Well, this thread went bizarre http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/xcjnf/found_a_bull_in_hobby_lobby_obviously_there_was/c5l84sv
23:01:48 <ion> The direct children of that comment are funny. Can’t tell if trolling or just stupid.
23:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I can definitely see someone not realising that it's is not the possessive of it when asked.
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