←2012-08-01 2012-08-02 2012-08-03→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:29:38 <quintopia> :\
00:30:19 <quintopia> david_werecat: hi :\
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02:41:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/UKhG
02:41:36 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 66.6
02:43:53 <quintopia> still not as high as when i let counterpoke beat me :P
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03:12:14 <david_werecat> quintopia: Wow, the new bfjoust competitor beats everything.
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04:25:21 <tswett> Gregor: I figure you might appreciate this. http://soundcloud.com/tswett/cakesnap-wip-1
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05:14:45 <elliott> kmc: from today's HWN quotes section: "jmcarthur: we calmly talk trolls to death"
05:14:48 <elliott> thought u'd apreciate
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05:31:13 <elliott> So I hear Volume 4, Pre-fascicle 6A is out.
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06:55:10 <Sgeo> I am going to test something, and to test it requires disconnecting briefly. I am not having network troubles, and I hope this does not bother anyone.
06:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oh thank god
06:57:20 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the idea of being without Sgeo for any length of time without knowing why is simply unbearable.
06:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> also apparently holy shit bill dos died
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06:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Sgeo_, the name bill dos mean anything to you
06:59:34 <Sgeo_> As in "Bill Dos" or "Bill" does mean anything?
07:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The former.
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07:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The only hits on Google are people with the name 'Bill Dos <something>', articles about Bill Gates and one South African "computer academy".
07:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh hmm it may have been Bill Doss.
07:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott FFS if you're going to notify me of the deaths of obscure musicians at least spell their names right.
07:06:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:20:50 <ais523> `quote expensive health food
07:21:01 <HackEgo> 130) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
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07:45:07 <Taneb> Hello
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08:07:19 <kmc> Ubuntu 12.04 "Mrki Medvjed"
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09:00:43 <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE?
09:02:00 <Sgeo_> AFAIK, Xach is the only maintainer of quicklisp
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12:17:19 <nooga> haaa
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12:34:12 <Taneb> Why does r/picturesofiansleeping exist!?
12:38:59 <Sgeo_> Because someone created it.
12:39:41 <Sgeo_> Woah, ok, it seems to be incredibly popular.
12:39:44 <Sgeo_> THAT's disturbing.
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12:40:28 <Sgeo_> Oh, Ian agreed to it
12:41:02 <Taneb> But why do 7000 people want to see pictures of some guy sleeping?
12:41:50 <itidus21> always the easy questions get people stumped
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12:42:15 <Taneb> I'm not sure if that's true
12:42:21 <Taneb> I'll demonstrate.
12:42:28 <Taneb> What's 3 times 2
12:42:29 <Taneb> ?
12:42:35 <itidus21> 6
12:42:42 <itidus21> whoa
12:42:43 <Taneb> Wasn't that an easy question
12:42:46 <itidus21> i see what you mean
12:43:06 <Sgeo_> Always the questions that get people stumped get people stumped.
12:43:13 <itidus21> qed
12:43:53 <itidus21> but to get back to the point i was gonna make
12:44:19 <itidus21> someone had to create every last image found on the internet, or used software to generate them
12:44:39 <itidus21> that in itself should be quite depressing
12:45:04 <itidus21> but not really
12:45:12 <itidus21> the pictures tend to be ok in context
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12:45:45 <Taneb> Is this heading towards rule 34?
12:45:49 <itidus21> myspace girl discovers camera and proceeds to take 20 photos of herself from extreme angles
12:45:50 <Taneb> Hello, Gregor
12:46:23 <itidus21> flickr user takes 200 low resolution photos of landscapes they visited during travels
12:47:14 <Taneb> Group of people take picture of selves dressed as characters from a webcomic, in a shopping centre, put it on Facebook?
12:47:17 <Taneb> True story
12:47:24 <Taneb> Happened to me once
12:54:16 <Sgeo_> I need to learn how to avoid global variables
12:55:31 <Sgeo_> Whenever I look at Tcl, I keep thinking that I should be looking at Lisp
12:57:53 <Sgeo_> http://wiki.tcl.tk/13410
12:58:34 <Sgeo_> As interesting as most of that is, "OMG YOU DON'T NEED TO CALL ANY FUNCTIONS TO SERIALIZE TCL DATA STRUCTURES" is ... not at all impressive
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13:03:01 <kallisti> Sgeo_: you don't need to call any functions to serialize bash data structures either.
13:03:08 <kallisti> (actually that may not be true of bash arrays. not sure)
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13:03:27 <Sgeo_> Bash has arrays? Are they like Tcl's arrays?
13:03:33 <kallisti> I doubt it
13:03:46 <Sgeo_> You do need to call something to serialize Tcl's arrays since they're not first-class
13:03:55 <kallisti> I'm not sure that bash arrays are "first class"
13:03:58 <Sgeo_> Array just a collection of variables named in a certain way, really
13:04:30 <Sgeo_> Fine, here's a good difference between Bash and Tcl: Bash has ``, Tcl has []
13:04:37 <Sgeo_> Which makes more sense for nesting commands?
13:04:56 <kallisti> `` is considered deprecated
13:04:59 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
13:05:00 <kallisti> you should use $() instead
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13:05:09 <Sgeo_> Ah
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13:06:45 <kallisti> I believe $() is a standard Bourne feature as well
13:06:48 <kallisti> and avoids quote hell
13:07:08 <kallisti> a non-standard feature that avoids quote hell: you can put a $ in front a '' literal to get proper escape sequences
13:07:17 <kallisti> ``run echo $SHELL
13:07:20 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
13:07:27 <kallisti> `run echo $SHELL
13:07:30 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sh
13:07:38 <kallisti> `run echo $'don\'t'
13:07:41 <HackEgo> don't
13:07:52 <kallisti> without the $ you have to do
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13:08:01 <kallisti> `run echo 'don'\''t'
13:08:04 <HackEgo> don't
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13:09:22 <kallisti> I think programmers should come together and standardize a keyboard character set
13:09:59 <kallisti> not necessarily a standard /layout/, but a new set of characters that you could expect to find on a specialized "programmer's keyboard"
13:10:48 <Taneb> Have you been reading about APL?
13:10:50 <kallisti> so we can have more than 4 kinds of bracket-like symbols
13:10:52 <kallisti> Taneb: no
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13:12:03 <Taneb> APL, the language where life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵} can make sense
13:13:24 <kallisti> I suppose you could call it a "keyset"
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13:13:42 <kallisti> a set of characters that should be conveniently expressable by a programmer's input means
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13:14:15 <kallisti> which is a combination of the physical hardware (such as keyboards), and the capabilities of software (specialized keyboard layouts, emulators, and text editor support)
13:14:27 <Taneb> Beyond extended ascii?
13:14:35 <kallisti> yes
13:15:03 <kallisti> a common point that many languages reach in the design of their syntax is: welp, we've run out of convenient characters
13:15:08 <kallisti> this happens too quickly, imo.
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13:19:58 <itidus21> this doesn't happen to nikolaus wirth
13:21:10 <itidus21> but on the other hand it can go crazy
13:22:42 <itidus21> at least few languages as yet make commands out of strings of punctuation
13:23:45 <itidus21> such as, &($#, ^*&^, @(@(@, (&$*(*$, !(&(*, ^(&*^$%^$#)
13:26:08 <itidus21> basically, the 1 character per keyword idea
13:26:16 <itidus21> is itself quite a constraint
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14:55:15 <nooga> aaaaaaaarr
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14:55:35 <fizzie> nooga: Are you sure you do not mean "hello" or something. That's conventional.
14:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone here ever heard of Elephant 6 (correct answer is no, elliott need not answer).
14:59:55 <elliott> hi
15:00:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you've heard of it.
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15:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> CRYPTIC
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15:14:32 <Sgeo_> I was under the impression most BF implementations don't allow going past the left edge
15:14:36 <Sgeo_> I guess I was wrong? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/xiwno/a_file_that_is_a_windows_executable_a_pdf/c5n3rn4?context=3
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15:15:42 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Perhaps you should do a survey and make a table of interpreter properties.
15:15:50 <fizzie> All I've seen on the topic has been mostly guesswork.
15:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, if so, most interpreters are crap.
15:16:43 <fizzie> It's not unheard-of not to allow it.
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15:20:53 <Sgeo_> Eternity's Shylock is still a fantastic song
15:21:26 <Sgeo_> (Note: Googling will likely be Homestuck spoilers)
15:21:51 <fizzie> Speaking of songs, there's a Jeroen Tel concert here tomorrow, some of you might have heard of him.
15:22:52 <fizzie> (And Googling will not be Homestuck spoilers, even.)
15:26:31 <Sgeo_> Non-spoilery way to listen: http://assets.tumblr.com/swf/audio_player.swf?audio_file=http://www.tumblr.com/audio_file/architectural-perfection/28245664979/tumblr_m7wnn9HLah1qm8n2a&color=FFFFFF
15:27:02 <Sgeo_> Well, I assume that the music's non-spoilery
15:27:05 <Sgeo_> Maybe due to motifs?
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16:20:09 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: so apparently "Asian" in the UK means south asian?
16:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
16:20:18 <kallisti> and excludes east asians?
16:20:20 <kallisti> huh. interesting
16:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but if you say 'Asian' the default meaning is south Asian.
16:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And you'd probably have to clarify if you meant east asians.
16:21:12 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure most americans don't consider indians and "middle easterners" to be asian.
16:21:19 <kallisti> it mostly means east asian here.
16:22:26 <kallisti> but the census does include indians under the category asian.
16:23:15 <kallisti> "Statistics Norway considers people of Asian background to be people from all Asian countries.[11][12]"
16:23:19 <kallisti> Norway, always the sensible one.
16:24:18 <kallisti> "The Canadian Census' list of Visible Minorities includes "West Asian", "South Asian" and "Southeast Asian".[6] The Canadian government uses "West Asian" in its statistics; however people from the Arab countries are counted in a separate "Arab" category.[7][8]"
16:24:24 <kallisti> why. why do we make these arbitrary cultural categories.
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17:07:48 <fizzie> Spam subject (paraphrasing, accidentally deleted it already): "We care about your Education american education".
17:07:58 <fizzie> So they care about my education, but only if it's an American education.
17:09:57 <Sgeo_> No, clearly, your name is american education.
17:12:45 <fizzie> So... an American education consists only of telling people my name? Well, at least they know how to prioritize.
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18:57:26 <Sgeo_> Scheme is simple but highly fragmented, and Common Lisp is complex and creeky but has a semi-unified ecosystem
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18:58:17 <Sgeo_> Also Lisp has no non-hacky coroutines
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18:58:53 <shachaf> Nor does Scheme, unless you count continuations-as-coroutines as non-hacky.
19:01:20 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE? <-- bus factor?
19:01:59 <fizzie> oerjan: The amount of people using public transit, like poor people do, as opposed to taxis or limos with drivers or helicopters or such.
19:02:07 <Sgeo_> oerjan, how many specific people who, if hit by a bus, would cause the project to be severely damaged or end
19:02:19 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
19:02:41 <oerjan> ah.
19:03:12 <Sgeo_> Well, my actual use-case for coroutines or continuations etc. is just using asynchronous stuff in a synchronous-looking way
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19:06:12 <Sgeo_> Obviously, if Xach were hit by a bus, Common Lisp would continue to exist, but afaict, he's the sole maintainer of Quicklisp, which is THE repository that Common Lispers use for all package stuff
19:19:08 <kmc> you know what currency they use in bosnia?
19:19:13 <kmc> the deutschmark.
19:19:37 <oerjan> i find this... unlikely.
19:19:44 <oerjan> surely you mean euro.
19:19:54 <kmc> no
19:20:01 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_convertible_mark
19:21:08 <kmc> also they have one set of bills for Serbs and another for Bosniaks
19:22:57 <oerjan> naturally.
19:23:12 <fizzie> Do the bills annihilate if they come into contact?
19:23:29 <kmc> it's pegged to the Deutschmark which is pegged to the Euro
19:23:37 <kmc> the former peg is 1:1
19:23:43 <shachaf> heegan
19:23:55 <kmc> i don't remember if deutschmarks are still redeemable for euros, but anyway there are old DM values in contracts
19:24:09 <oerjan> montenegro, otoh, uses euros
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19:24:28 <kmc> yeah
19:24:35 <kmc> without the permission or approval of the ECB
19:24:40 <kmc> i was just there
19:24:53 <shachaf> You need permission to use Euros?
19:25:10 <kmc> no, montenegro uses them without permission
19:25:17 <oerjan> q.e.d.!
19:25:23 <kmc> yup
19:26:59 <Sgeo_> shachaf, what's your opinion of Tcl?
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19:29:55 <shachaf> I was visiting a friend yesterday and I renamed his cat Simon Marlow.
19:29:56 <kmc> also a lot of people in albanda would take euros
19:30:08 <kmc> and it seemed to be the default for anything over like US$100
19:30:34 <kmc> albania*
19:34:25 <kmc> gotta go to bosnia, bbl
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20:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> bosnda
20:19:55 <Sgeo_> The Prototypes with Multiple Inheritance seems to have broken my brain. I used to like the idea, now I dislike it just because I see its motivation can be fulfilled even without the prototype part
20:20:08 <Sgeo_> I think both of these opinions are not entirely reasonable.
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21:18:52 <Taneb> Hello!
21:19:05 <oerjan> eek, a Taneb
21:19:24 <Taneb> The monitor for my desktop has stopped working...
21:19:39 <Taneb> It doesn't turn on and when the power's in it makes a clicking sound
21:20:04 <Taneb> :(
21:21:30 <Taneb> Of course, when we got it, the world trade centre had twin towers
21:21:39 <oerjan> click beetle stuck on the circuit board, that's the only explanation
21:21:53 <Taneb> Of course!
21:22:02 <Taneb> I'll rescue it in the morning
21:22:30 <Taneb> It was one of the best monitors you could get in 2000
21:23:17 <Taneb> 1280 x 1024 px
21:28:34 <Gregor> “I feel stupid. I'm showing up with a gun to an artillery fight. That's like showing up with a rocket launcher to a tactical warhead fight.”
21:31:11 * oerjan shows up with a fork to a knife fight
21:32:39 * Taneb shows up with a spoon to a fork fight
21:33:17 * Gregor shows up with his tongue to a spoon fight
21:34:59 <oerjan> kinky!
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21:49:10 <oerjan> :t state
21:49:11 <lambdabot> forall s a. (s -> (a, s)) -> State s a
21:49:16 <oerjan> :t writer
21:49:17 <lambdabot> forall a w. (a, w) -> Writer w a
21:51:02 <Taneb> @unmtl Writer
21:51:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `Writer' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B. (B, A)'
21:51:15 <Taneb> @unmtl Writer [()] Int
21:51:15 <lambdabot> (Int, [()])
21:51:37 <Taneb> @unmtl MaybeT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:51:37 <lambdabot> (Maybe Bool, Sum Int)
21:51:46 * oerjan is looking at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11684321/how-to-play-with-control-monad-writer-in-haskell btw
21:51:48 <Taneb> @unmtl ConT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:51:49 <lambdabot> ConT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:52:48 <oerjan> it seems lambdabot has the change where Writer and WriterT were merged and separate writer functions were made to replace the olde Writer constructor
21:53:19 <Taneb> @unmtl WriterT (Sum Int) [] Bool
21:53:19 <lambdabot> [(Bool, Sum Int)]
21:53:26 <oerjan> but it does _not_ have the latest change where writer and state were made into methods of the MonadWriter / MonadState classes so you can use them even more generally
21:53:31 <oerjan> :t reader
21:53:33 <lambdabot> forall r a. (r -> a) -> Reader r a
21:53:42 <oerjan> :t asks
21:53:43 <lambdabot> forall r a (m :: * -> *). (MonadReader r m) => (r -> a) -> m a
21:54:12 <oerjan> i'm not sure if reader has been generalized like that, i think it would be just a synonym for asks
21:54:39 <oerjan> (@unmtl probably knows nothing about any of that)
21:54:59 <oerjan> Taneb: *ContT
21:55:05 <Taneb> Heh
21:55:09 <Taneb> @unmtl ContT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:55:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `ContT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. (A -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))) -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))'
21:55:19 <Taneb> @unmtl ContT Word8 (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:55:20 <lambdabot> (Bool -> (Word8, Sum Int)) -> (Word8, Sum Int)
21:56:02 <oerjan> :t cont
21:56:04 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
21:56:13 <Taneb> Why is there the split between mtl and transformers
21:56:34 <oerjan> i don't think cont can be made a method
21:57:48 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc transformers contains the part that doesn't require fancy type stuff like functional dependencies
21:58:26 <oerjan> i think there's an alternative to mtl which uses type families on top of transformers instead, for those who like that
21:59:22 <Taneb> Hmm
21:59:46 <Taneb> What extensions are on the cards for becoming part of Haskell proper next report?
22:00:14 <oerjan> i dunno, is there any progress on the next report revision at all?
22:00:46 <Taneb> No idea :(
22:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not following anything other than reddit for haskell news at present
22:03:07 <oerjan> there have been several recent interesting additions to ghc, but they will of course take decades to become official ;)
22:04:08 <Taneb> Maybe when I'm a supervillain
22:04:33 <oerjan> nah, not that soon
22:04:49 <Taneb> Maybe when I'm the evil league of evil
22:05:15 * oerjan isn't sure whether there's an "in" missing there
22:05:27 <oerjan> with supervillains, one can never be sure
22:06:01 <Taneb> Indeed
22:07:18 <Taneb> But maybe when I'm a supervillain, I'll be helping implement the features
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22:35:54 <oerjan> the ghost of Tanebs past
22:36:57 <quintopia> the ghost of Tanebs passed :/
22:37:22 <oerjan> that it did
22:39:29 <Taneb> I think that means it's time for me to go to bed, only to be awoken firstly by the ghost of my dead coworker, then three other ghosts representing periods of history, for the purpose of making me a better person
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