2012-08-02 - freenode:#esoteric

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02:41:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/UKhG

02:43:53 <quintopia> still not as high as when i let counterpoke beat me :P

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03:12:14 <david_werecat> quintopia: Wow, the new bfjoust competitor beats everything.

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04:25:21 <tswett> Gregor: I figure you might appreciate this. http://soundcloud.com/tswett/cakesnap-wip-1

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05:14:45 <elliott> kmc: from today's HWN quotes section: "jmcarthur: we calmly talk trolls to death"

05:31:13 <elliott> So I hear Volume 4, Pre-fascicle 6A is out.

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06:55:10 <Sgeo> I am going to test something, and to test it requires disconnecting briefly. I am not having network troubles, and I hope this does not bother anyone.

06:57:20 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.

06:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the idea of being without Sgeo for any length of time without knowing why is simply unbearable.

06:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> also apparently holy shit bill dos died

06:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Sgeo_, the name bill dos mean anything to you

06:59:34 <Sgeo_> As in "Bill Dos" or "Bill" does mean anything?

07:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The only hits on Google are people with the name 'Bill Dos <something>', articles about Bill Gates and one South African "computer academy".

07:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh hmm it may have been Bill Doss.

07:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott FFS if you're going to notify me of the deaths of obscure musicians at least spell their names right.

07:21:01 <HackEgo> 130) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.

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09:00:43 <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE?

09:02:00 <Sgeo_> AFAIK, Xach is the only maintainer of quicklisp

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12:34:12 <Taneb> Why does r/picturesofiansleeping exist!?

12:39:41 <Sgeo_> Woah, ok, it seems to be incredibly popular.

12:41:02 <Taneb> But why do 7000 people want to see pictures of some guy sleeping?

12:41:50 <itidus21> always the easy questions get people stumped

12:43:06 <Sgeo_> Always the questions that get people stumped get people stumped.

12:43:53 <itidus21> but to get back to the point i was gonna make

12:44:19 <itidus21> someone had to create every last image found on the internet, or used software to generate them

12:44:39 <itidus21> that in itself should be quite depressing

12:45:12 <itidus21> the pictures tend to be ok in context

12:45:49 <itidus21> myspace girl discovers camera and proceeds to take 20 photos of herself from extreme angles

12:46:23 <itidus21> flickr user takes 200 low resolution photos of landscapes they visited during travels

12:47:14 <Taneb> Group of people take picture of selves dressed as characters from a webcomic, in a shopping centre, put it on Facebook?

12:54:16 <Sgeo_> I need to learn how to avoid global variables

12:55:31 <Sgeo_> Whenever I look at Tcl, I keep thinking that I should be looking at Lisp

12:58:34 <Sgeo_> As interesting as most of that is, "OMG YOU DON'T NEED TO CALL ANY FUNCTIONS TO SERIALIZE TCL DATA STRUCTURES" is ... not at all impressive

13:03:01 <kallisti> Sgeo_: you don't need to call any functions to serialize bash data structures either.

13:03:08 <kallisti> (actually that may not be true of bash arrays. not sure)

13:03:27 <Sgeo_> Bash has arrays? Are they like Tcl's arrays?

13:03:46 <Sgeo_> You do need to call something to serialize Tcl's arrays since they're not first-class

13:03:55 <kallisti> I'm not sure that bash arrays are "first class"

13:03:58 <Sgeo_> Array just a collection of variables named in a certain way, really

13:04:30 <Sgeo_> Fine, here's a good difference between Bash and Tcl: Bash has ``, Tcl has []

13:04:37 <Sgeo_> Which makes more sense for nesting commands?

13:04:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found

13:06:45 <kallisti> I believe $() is a standard Bourne feature as well

13:07:08 <kallisti> a non-standard feature that avoids quote hell: you can put a $ in front a '' literal to get proper escape sequences

13:07:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found

13:09:22 <kallisti> I think programmers should come together and standardize a keyboard character set

13:09:59 <kallisti> not necessarily a standard /layout/, but a new set of characters that you could expect to find on a specialized "programmer's keyboard"

13:10:50 <kallisti> so we can have more than 4 kinds of bracket-like symbols

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13:12:03 <Taneb> APL, the language where life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵} can make sense

13:13:24 <kallisti> I suppose you could call it a "keyset"

13:13:42 <kallisti> a set of characters that should be conveniently expressable by a programmer's input means

13:14:15 <kallisti> which is a combination of the physical hardware (such as keyboards), and the capabilities of software (specialized keyboard layouts, emulators, and text editor support)

13:15:03 <kallisti> a common point that many languages reach in the design of their syntax is: welp, we've run out of convenient characters

13:19:58 <itidus21> this doesn't happen to nikolaus wirth

13:21:10 <itidus21> but on the other hand it can go crazy

13:22:42 <itidus21> at least few languages as yet make commands out of strings of punctuation

13:23:45 <itidus21> such as, &($#, ^*&^, @(@(@, (&$*(*$, !(&(*, ^(&*^$%^$#)

13:26:08 <itidus21> basically, the 1 character per keyword idea

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14:55:35 <fizzie> nooga: Are you sure you do not mean "hello" or something. That's conventional.

14:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone here ever heard of Elephant 6 (correct answer is no, elliott need not answer).

15:00:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you've heard of it.

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15:14:32 <Sgeo_> I was under the impression most BF implementations don't allow going past the left edge

15:14:36 <Sgeo_> I guess I was wrong? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/xiwno/a_file_that_is_a_windows_executable_a_pdf/c5n3rn4?context=3

15:15:42 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Perhaps you should do a survey and make a table of interpreter properties.

15:15:50 <fizzie> All I've seen on the topic has been mostly guesswork.

15:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, if so, most interpreters are crap.

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15:20:53 <Sgeo_> Eternity's Shylock is still a fantastic song

15:21:26 <Sgeo_> (Note: Googling will likely be Homestuck spoilers)

15:21:51 <fizzie> Speaking of songs, there's a Jeroen Tel concert here tomorrow, some of you might have heard of him.

15:22:52 <fizzie> (And Googling will not be Homestuck spoilers, even.)

15:26:31 <Sgeo_> Non-spoilery way to listen: http://assets.tumblr.com/swf/audio_player.swf?audio_file=http://www.tumblr.com/audio_file/architectural-perfection/28245664979/tumblr_m7wnn9HLah1qm8n2a&color=FFFFFF

15:27:02 <Sgeo_> Well, I assume that the music's non-spoilery

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16:20:09 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: so apparently "Asian" in the UK means south asian?

16:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but if you say 'Asian' the default meaning is south Asian.

16:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And you'd probably have to clarify if you meant east asians.

16:21:12 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure most americans don't consider indians and "middle easterners" to be asian.

16:22:26 <kallisti> but the census does include indians under the category asian.

16:23:15 <kallisti> "Statistics Norway considers people of Asian background to be people from all Asian countries.[11][12]"

16:24:18 <kallisti> "The Canadian Census' list of Visible Minorities includes "West Asian", "South Asian" and "Southeast Asian".[6] The Canadian government uses "West Asian" in its statistics; however people from the Arab countries are counted in a separate "Arab" category.[7][8]"

16:24:24 <kallisti> why. why do we make these arbitrary cultural categories.

17:07:48 <fizzie> Spam subject (paraphrasing, accidentally deleted it already): "We care about your Education american education".

17:07:58 <fizzie> So they care about my education, but only if it's an American education.

17:09:57 <Sgeo_> No, clearly, your name is american education.

17:12:45 <fizzie> So... an American education consists only of telling people my name? Well, at least they know how to prioritize.

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18:57:26 <Sgeo_> Scheme is simple but highly fragmented, and Common Lisp is complex and creeky but has a semi-unified ecosystem

18:58:53 <shachaf> Nor does Scheme, unless you count continuations-as-coroutines as non-hacky.

19:01:20 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE? <-- bus factor?

19:01:59 <fizzie> oerjan: The amount of people using public transit, like poor people do, as opposed to taxis or limos with drivers or helicopters or such.

19:02:07 <Sgeo_> oerjan, how many specific people who, if hit by a bus, would cause the project to be severely damaged or end

19:02:19 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor

19:03:12 <Sgeo_> Well, my actual use-case for coroutines or continuations etc. is just using asynchronous stuff in a synchronous-looking way

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19:06:12 <Sgeo_> Obviously, if Xach were hit by a bus, Common Lisp would continue to exist, but afaict, he's the sole maintainer of Quicklisp, which is THE repository that Common Lispers use for all package stuff

19:19:08 <kmc> you know what currency they use in bosnia?

19:20:01 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_convertible_mark

19:21:08 <kmc> also they have one set of bills for Serbs and another for Bosniaks

19:23:12 <fizzie> Do the bills annihilate if they come into contact?

19:23:29 <kmc> it's pegged to the Deutschmark which is pegged to the Euro

19:23:55 <kmc> i don't remember if deutschmarks are still redeemable for euros, but anyway there are old DM values in contracts

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19:24:35 <kmc> without the permission or approval of the ECB

19:25:10 <kmc> no, montenegro uses them without permission

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19:29:55 <shachaf> I was visiting a friend yesterday and I renamed his cat Simon Marlow.

19:29:56 <kmc> also a lot of people in albanda would take euros

19:30:08 <kmc> and it seemed to be the default for anything over like US$100

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20:19:55 <Sgeo_> The Prototypes with Multiple Inheritance seems to have broken my brain. I used to like the idea, now I dislike it just because I see its motivation can be fulfilled even without the prototype part

20:20:08 <Sgeo_> I think both of these opinions are not entirely reasonable.

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21:19:24 <Taneb> The monitor for my desktop has stopped working...

21:19:39 <Taneb> It doesn't turn on and when the power's in it makes a clicking sound

21:21:30 <Taneb> Of course, when we got it, the world trade centre had twin towers

21:21:39 <oerjan> click beetle stuck on the circuit board, that's the only explanation

21:22:30 <Taneb> It was one of the best monitors you could get in 2000

21:28:34 <Gregor> “I feel stupid. I'm showing up with a gun to an artillery fight. That's like showing up with a rocket launcher to a tactical warhead fight.”

21:33:17 * Gregor shows up with his tongue to a spoon fight

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21:49:11 <lambdabot> forall s a. (s -> (a, s)) -> State s a

21:51:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `Writer' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B. (B, A)'

21:51:46 * oerjan is looking at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11684321/how-to-play-with-control-monad-writer-in-haskell btw

21:52:48 <oerjan> it seems lambdabot has the change where Writer and WriterT were merged and separate writer functions were made to replace the olde Writer constructor

21:53:26 <oerjan> but it does _not_ have the latest change where writer and state were made into methods of the MonadWriter / MonadState classes so you can use them even more generally

21:53:43 <lambdabot> forall r a (m :: * -> *). (MonadReader r m) => (r -> a) -> m a

21:54:12 <oerjan> i'm not sure if reader has been generalized like that, i think it would be just a synonym for asks

21:54:39 <oerjan> (@unmtl probably knows nothing about any of that)

21:55:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `ContT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. (A -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))) -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))'

21:55:19 <Taneb> @unmtl ContT Word8 (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool

21:55:20 <lambdabot> (Bool -> (Word8, Sum Int)) -> (Word8, Sum Int)

21:56:04 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a

21:56:13 <Taneb> Why is there the split between mtl and transformers

21:56:34 <oerjan> i don't think cont can be made a method

21:57:48 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc transformers contains the part that doesn't require fancy type stuff like functional dependencies

21:58:26 <oerjan> i think there's an alternative to mtl which uses type families on top of transformers instead, for those who like that

21:59:46 <Taneb> What extensions are on the cards for becoming part of Haskell proper next report?

22:00:14 <oerjan> i dunno, is there any progress on the next report revision at all?

22:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not following anything other than reddit for haskell news at present

22:03:07 <oerjan> there have been several recent interesting additions to ghc, but they will of course take decades to become official ;)

22:05:15 * oerjan isn't sure whether there's an "in" missing there

22:05:27 <oerjan> with supervillains, one can never be sure

22:07:18 <Taneb> But maybe when I'm a supervillain, I'll be helping implement the features

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22:39:29 <Taneb> I think that means it's time for me to go to bed, only to be awoken firstly by the ghost of my dead coworker, then three other ghosts representing periods of history, for the purpose of making me a better person

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