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00:39:02 <Sgeo_> "In all honesty and speaking as someone who used C++ professionally for years -- C++ has passed the point of usefulness. I have heard people say that Ada was a language designed by a committee to prove that not all programming languages can be implemented, it is overly complex and difficult to understand, yet it is a model of simplicity and elegance compared to C++, which in its latest incarnation also demonstrates the pristine and readable
00:39:02 <Sgeo_> qualities of APL. Frankly, C++ should have its head cut off and its head and body buried at a crossroad with garlic in its mouth and a stake though its heart. That probably won't kill it, but it should slow it down somewhat. Nowadays I would never start a project in C++ that I ever thought I'd need to finish. I'd rather do it in something simpler and more portable. Like assembler."
00:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean it's not a bad screed, but why did you paste it?
00:42:38 * Sgeo_ thought it was amusing
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02:16:10 <Sgeo_> What languages have Smalltalk-like IDEs?
02:16:17 <Sgeo_> Smalltalk and Tcl at least
02:16:28 <Sgeo_> Although the Tcl ones probably aren't well-maintained
02:47:17 <itidus21> And Smalltalk itself, by definition has a Smalltalk-like IDE
02:54:30 <zzo38> What does BIG talk have?
02:55:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31651
02:56:18 <itidus21> <SamB> X is much bigger then Y -- this really says so much with so few words
02:58:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22129
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02:59:37 <itidus21> we must give her all she's got
02:59:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9313
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03:07:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27446
03:07:42 <itidus21> it's probably on a drawingboard somewhere
03:12:00 <itidus21> one of those programming language designers who uses drawing boards
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03:24:34 <zzo38> What assembler features did you like to have in assemblers?
03:32:25 <itidus21> "A man standing at a drawing board with Lets Draw written above" http://image1.masterfile.com/em_w/03/47/29/608-03472993fw.jpg
03:34:28 <itidus21> @google "A man standing at a drawing board with Lets Draw written above"
03:34:31 <lambdabot> http://www.inmagine.com/izs015/izs015555-photo
03:34:31 <lambdabot> Title: A Man Standing At A Drawing Board With Lets Draw Written Above Stock Photos / Pi ...
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03:40:27 <HackEgo> ＥＬＬＩＯＴＴ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧ
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09:25:02 <kmc> stand by for transmission
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09:35:50 <mroman> Can you repeat that? Over.
09:36:28 <kmc> delta oscar november golf sierra
09:39:20 <mroman> Romeo Oscar Golf Echo Romeo
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09:50:56 <kmc> foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot
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10:18:05 <ion> uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform
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12:16:20 <Sgeo__> Ugh, it uses a non-Tcl-standard way of initializing variables in namespaces
12:16:41 <Sgeo__> I mean, it makes sense, because [namespace eval] stuff isn't exactly stored anywhere available for introspection, but still
12:17:48 <Sgeo__> Bluh, the single-dispatchness of Tcl OO systems in general is striking me again
12:20:07 <nooga> does somebody know the name of this constructed script that was based on 3x3 grid of letters
12:20:42 <nooga> and the characters were constructed from the cell edges with longer or shorter lines
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13:02:23 <kmc> google maps has very bad coverage in bosnia & herzegovina
13:02:36 <kmc> but (probably not by coincidence) openstreetmaps has exceptionally good coverage
13:02:55 <Sgeo__> Just because I like TclTalk doesn't mean I should start looking at Smalltalk again, does it
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13:04:27 <kmc> make something interesting in whatever language seems appropriate for the job
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13:07:49 <itidus21> Sgeo__: if you were me, you would only be contented with an IDE which only exists undesigned in your imagination and find everything else has faults
13:08:40 <itidus21> eventually along this train of thought you would realize that any program would be imperfect
13:09:03 <Sgeo__> Smalltalk-like IDEs tend to let you change the IDE while it's running
13:09:22 <Sgeo__> So you could probably make it to your satisfaction
13:09:25 <Taneb> Smalltalk's the really object oriented one, right?
13:10:17 <Taneb> Should it be on my list of languages to learn eventually?
13:10:52 <Sgeo__> EVERYTHING should be on your list of languages to learn eventually. Except PHP.
13:12:17 <Taneb> What about NetFuck?
13:12:29 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, hey, COBOL's fun!
13:12:54 <Sgeo__> But... it's interesting to see an.... old model for programming
13:14:12 <Sgeo__> Although I could describe the thing that sticks out the most to me: ALL variables must be declared in one section of the code. COBOL procedures (I forget what they're called) do not accept arguments, instead, they must look at and modify some of the declared variables.
13:14:14 <quintopia> or algol 60 (which doesnt suck how algol 68 does)
13:19:13 <Taneb> COBOL was the language my parents used
13:19:37 <Sgeo__> Taneb, you should learn Tcl
13:19:56 <Taneb> I thought that was a protocol?
13:20:39 <Sgeo__> Note that opinion in this channel does seem to be divided about it
13:21:05 <Taneb> Is Tcl the one with tk?
13:24:02 <kmc> learning about the siege of sarajevo makes me think it might not be such a crazy idea to stockpile years worth of food, medicine, etc.
13:24:50 <kmc> in the USA there is a general tendency to make fun of people who do this
13:24:57 <kmc> i bet that tendency does not exist in bosnia anymore
13:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> In Bosnia a domestic war was a very likely possibility.
13:29:12 <kmc> more likely than the USA, yeah
13:31:33 <kmc> but how many residents of sarajevo in 1984 -- when the city was hosting the Olympics -- would believe that in 8 years time they'd be under daily attack by artillery and snipers?
13:31:48 <kmc> i don't really know
13:34:00 <Taneb> How many people in London 1940 would believe that in only 8 years they'd be hosting the olympics?
13:34:11 <kmc> or beirut in the 60's
13:34:32 <kmc> Taneb: heh, i like your reversal :)
13:35:05 <kmc> in early 1940 it was not totally clear that wwii was going to be a big deal
13:35:56 <kmc> i think these things sneak up on people
13:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I think if you were discussing the crazy survivalist angle with someone you could make a good case for war reaching Germany being possible.
13:36:15 <kmc> people who are enjoying prosperity for the time being, and who are more concerned with their daily lives than geopolitics
13:38:07 <kmc> this is an instance of the fat tails phenomenon
13:38:23 <kmc> people underestimate the probability of unlikely events
13:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless they've invested time and resources into preparing for them, in which case they'll overestimate.
13:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I think one reason the survivalists get mocked is because many of them don't have a clue what they're doing (just ask quintopia about his gold reserves).
13:39:59 <kmc> many of them are crazy, for sure
13:41:08 <kmc> building a fortified NBC-proof bunker in your backyard is probably crazy :)
13:41:18 <kmc> but stashing away some food and water is not that crazy, or expensive
13:41:25 <kmc> even if you don't expect to use it
13:41:45 <kmc> in disaster-prone areas this is a normal thing to do, but with like 1-2 weeks worth
13:42:14 <kmc> which will not do you much good in a prolonged armed conflict
13:43:25 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i dont have any gold reserves. its still a better idea than bitcoin reserves.
13:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> That second sentence might make sense if anyone actually stockpiled bitcoins.
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13:44:25 <fizzie> There's a bitcoin thing-thing here this year.
13:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, if they started doing it earlier, they're richer now than anyone who put it into gold.
13:44:51 <fizzie> You collect hidden QR codes and send something like 0.0005 BTC to each address you find.
13:45:06 <fizzie> Who finds most gets a 5 BTC physical coin-thing (or whatever) and things.
13:45:43 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: not necessarily. have you compared the rise in gold prices over the last twenty years?
13:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but I somehow doubt there's been a 30-fold increase in the span of a year.
13:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is the physical coin thing the necessary cryptographic information on a chip or something?
13:50:09 <Taneb> I've never seen anywhere that takes bitcoin?
13:50:33 <itidus21> i have no desire to help anyone get rich by advancing bitcoin
13:51:06 <Gregor> My greatest fear in gold reserves is that at some point, we'll look at ourselves as a species, and decide it's time to stop worshiping valueless shiny rocks.
13:51:09 <itidus21> and i like currencies which have evolved slowly and found some degree of balance
13:52:35 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know, but I guess I can check.
13:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Or rhodium, which AFAIK is a really good investment because it's incredibly rare and incredibly useful as a catalyst.
13:53:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's just a piece of paper in a "tamper-proof" seal.
13:53:39 <fizzie> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Casascius_physical_bitcoins
13:53:59 <kmc> isn't energy the best investment?
13:54:05 <itidus21> my view of survivalism, money, reserves and life is that no matter what we do about all of these things, we are always at risk of dying due to some event we cannot predict or control
13:54:06 <kmc> store your wealth by pumping water to the top of a hill
13:54:34 <kmc> itidus21: that's why i don't wear my seatbelt when i ride in a car
13:54:44 <kmc> i mean, you might die anyway, so there is no point in doing anything to decrease the chance of it
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13:54:49 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I've understood people do Bitcoin "paper wallets" to avoid those dastardly hackers.
13:54:57 <itidus21> kmc: oh i go out of my way to decrease the chances of it ..
13:55:35 <itidus21> i have known people who genuinely don't seem to care
13:55:48 <fizzie> The people doing the thing also mentioned the first restaurant in Helsinki to accept BTC just opened recently.
13:56:11 <itidus21> like when i would take my time before crossing a road, he would mention something about that
13:57:14 <itidus21> or i have even been told of by someone when i was younger for wearing seatbelt
13:58:08 <Sgeo__> itidus21, kmc's point is that survivalism is another way of going out of your way to decrease your chances of dying.
13:59:02 <Sgeo__> I have to admit those "physical bitcoins" are pretty
13:59:19 <itidus21> well.... collecting food is good
13:59:41 <itidus21> someone once suggested to me that at such times the valuable things are food and guns
14:01:09 <itidus21> maybe thats an over simplified view they put though
14:03:24 <itidus21> i keep imagining gold containing chocolate
14:03:50 <Taneb> itidus21, invest in cocoa
14:04:15 <itidus21> at least if its not sealed properly
14:04:24 <kmc> gotta seal ur food
14:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrap all your food in gold so that even if someone manages to steal it they'll just discard it as worthless gold.
14:06:15 <itidus21> so the point of the gold reserves is if the economy crashes you still have something of value
14:06:27 <itidus21> and not implying a war scenario
14:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's also because some people still think it has inherent value.
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14:07:50 <kmc> i think you'd be better off investing in barterable skills
14:08:43 <kmc> even if gold retains some "intrinsic value", there is going to be much less demand and liquidity in gold markets after an economic collapse
14:08:52 <kmc> especially because you lose the infrastructure which makes markets work
14:09:15 <itidus21> women often like tradesmen, they're fit and always find work
14:09:21 <kmc> whereas if you can, say, perform basic medical procedures, or repair automobiles and convert them to run on wood gas
14:09:26 <kmc> then i think you're set
14:10:10 <itidus21> kmc: there is no counter argument.
14:10:18 <kmc> on a barely related note, it seems that about 50% of cars in albania are 90's mercedes
14:10:29 <kmc> i don't know why
14:10:48 <kmc> maybe during the communist era, the ability to import a german luxury car was a great sign of power and wealth
14:11:11 <itidus21> oh i saw a video about russian video games yesterday
14:11:17 <kmc> and somehow mercedes caught on versus other brands
14:11:22 <itidus21> rather video games sold in russia
14:11:31 <kmc> and now it's easy to get one, but status symbols are sticky
14:11:38 <itidus21> they had super mario bros 1 - 16 for the dendy
14:11:39 <kmc> this is also why everything is covered in bright blue LEDs these days
14:12:30 <itidus21> i wonder why blue is cooler than green
14:13:18 <kmc> "Among the games was the Super Mario Bros. series, which included the three original Mario productions from Nintendo, along with a series of unlicensed Mario games, most of which were just other Famicom games with the main character replaced with Mario sprites."
14:13:41 <kmc> itidus21: blue LEDs were still expensive at a time when red and green LEDs were cheap
14:13:58 <kmc> so they became a signifier of expensive quality electronics
14:14:05 <itidus21> as it turns out, the russians were led to believe that all of these games were actually canonical mario games
14:14:08 <kmc> now they are cheap and are found all over cheap kwality electronics
14:15:07 <itidus21> and on a tv show, when joe and mac was being reviewed they said that joe and mac was merely a pirate copy of super mario 16 with the sprite of a caveman
14:15:49 <kmc> it's the same with laser pointers, except that green is subjectively much brighter at the same output power
14:16:05 <kmc> so i think ludicrously overpowered green lasers are still the main coveted nerd-toy in this area
14:16:12 <Sgeo__> I guess computer programming is not a barterable skill
14:16:21 <kmc> but blu-ray-based purple lasers that can set stuff on fire are also popular
14:16:25 <Sgeo__> Unless somehow we end up in Alpha Complex
14:16:29 <kmc> Sgeo__: it depends but probably not
14:17:06 <kmc> the ability to hack whatever computing equipment is left over after the apocalypse into basic automation stuff would be useful
14:17:14 <itidus21> my understanding of nature isn't good enough to predict how knowledge of computation could be lost
14:17:14 <kmc> also telecommunications
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14:17:21 <kmc> ham radio and maybe long-distance wifi
14:17:29 <kmc> it depends on the type of apocalypse though
14:17:41 <kmc> if most people die off, automation will be valuable
14:17:49 <itidus21> like, predicting the actual future is a super-complex problem
14:17:54 <kmc> if there is a surplus of people, then not so much
14:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Automation is necessary for large numbers of people, not small ones.
14:18:43 <itidus21> not predicting one event in the future, but predicting the collective events leading to some future moment
14:25:07 <itidus21> albania google maps looks like it was done by people walking along the streets on foot
14:27:32 <kmc> it looks to me like they don't have actual street view
14:27:38 <kmc> just geo-tagged photos taken by random people
14:28:04 <kmc> i don't know where they scrape these from
14:28:56 <kmc> the bus through albania stopped at a truck stop which only had squat toilets
14:29:12 <kmc> this would not be such a problem except that a lot of the people using them apparently did not know how to use squat toilets
14:29:17 <itidus21> i was contemplating the other day that street view must have an enormous fuel budget
14:29:22 <kmc> so there was a lot of shit all over the floor
14:32:01 <itidus21> are these 90's mercedes? https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/75112590
14:32:45 <kmc> also the mercedes thing was observed mostly in Shkodra so it may not hold in other cities
14:33:08 <itidus21> that looks like a mercedes on the left of that pic at a guess
14:33:23 <kmc> the big one won't load for me
14:33:26 <kmc> maybe it wants frash prugin
14:34:03 <itidus21> ill make it happen though via another means
14:34:10 <itidus21> cos clearly i have nothing better to do
14:34:44 <kmc> itidus21: you should check out the pyramid at 41.323411,19.821246
14:36:03 <itidus21> http://oi50.tinypic.com/11lmyjs.jpg
14:36:53 <kmc> it looks much shitter now than most of these photos
14:37:08 <kmc> this one's about right:
14:37:18 <fizzie> Aren't the Google Maps photos from Panoramio? At least that's what I thought.
14:37:29 <kmc> too blurry to tell itidus21
14:37:59 <fizzie> Also they have a walk-around streetview camera, the blog mentioned it.
14:38:01 <itidus21> i did go with jpeg, via microsoft paint, so even if it was a good pic before who knows
14:38:06 <fizzie> Though only for places where you can't drive a car to.
14:38:42 <fizzie> http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news-700/The-Google-Street-View-Car-Now-Fits-into-a-Backpack.jpg
14:39:09 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.pcworld.com/article/241960/throw_this_camera_ball_to_take_a_360degree_panorama.html
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14:40:06 <kmc> "So the ball captures images once reaches its maximum arc because it is almost at a stand still as its velocity and the gravity acting on it are at equilibrium."
14:40:12 <kmc> good job pcworld writer person
14:41:33 <fizzie> Here's a panorama which I made from a ball that was already there: http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/16009-4/p1100262.jpg -> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/16203-2/p1100271-remapped.jpg
14:41:38 <fizzie> Okay, it's not very high-fidelity.
14:41:41 <kmc> i was going to say "accelerometer" but no, it's not that simple
14:41:50 <fizzie> The ball isn't actually spherical, and it's a bit dirty too.
14:41:52 <kmc> because the acceleration on the free ball is constant regardless of its velocity
14:42:13 <fizzie> It has a velocitometer, of course.
14:42:59 <Sgeo__> Well, there's acceleration added by the thrower
14:43:04 <Sgeo__> If you just drop the ball, what happens?
14:43:16 <Sgeo__> Although that too would be detectable, hmm
14:43:25 <kmc> Sgeo__: the initial acceleration is (in theory) instantaneous
14:43:31 <kmc> once the ball leaves your hand, the only acceleration is gravity
14:43:43 <kmc> you could measure the initial acceleration and then dead-reckon the top point from that
14:44:24 <Sgeo__> Is it sad that the reason I know the term dead-reckoning is because of a book on Microsoft Flight Simulator that I had many years ago?
14:44:59 <kmc> what if you had like a marble inside a hollow chamber in the ball
14:45:07 <kmc> the marble would move to the other side of the chamber when the ball starts to fall, no?
14:45:31 <fizzie> Both have the same amount of acceleration downwards.
14:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The ball is in an inertial frame from leaving your hand to hitting the ground.
14:45:58 <kmc> "are you serious, it' acceleration is not a constant. If it's first derivative(velocity) is 0, then the second derivative(acceleration) HAS to be zero....the derivative of any constant is 0...
14:46:44 <kmc> wish i could find the frikkin paper
14:46:53 <kmc> various people speculate that it integrates acceleration
14:47:37 <kmc> ok "Our camera contains an accelerometer which we use to measure launch acceleration. Integration lets us predict rise time to the highest point, where we trigger the exposure. "
14:47:40 <kmc> from the abstract
14:47:46 <kmc> http://jonaspfeil.de/ballcamera
14:48:57 <fizzie> Yeah, it should use laser range-finding to estimate distances from the ground.
14:48:58 <kmc> yeah, it should bounce radio waves off the ground or something
14:49:31 <kmc> probably it doesn't matter too much to get the high point correct
14:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It should measure the CMB and calculate its velocity from the Doppler shift.
14:49:42 <kmc> as long as your are shooting daytime scenes with fast shutter speed
14:49:48 <fizzie> There's an app for the N900 (probably other phones too) which measures free-fall times, the idea being that you compete by throwing it into the air; the one who gets longest free-fall time wins.
14:50:08 <fizzie> They held a competition here a year or two back, IIRC.
14:50:20 <kmc> that is fantastic
14:50:24 <fizzie> It has a lot of disclaimers about the app-makers not being responsible for broken phones.
14:50:39 <kmc> were you allowed to put padding etc around it
14:50:45 <kmc> like the egg drop competitions of high school physics
14:51:00 <fizzie> The phones were supplied by the organizers, I believe.
14:51:17 <fizzie> I suppose you could make a padding-allowed house rule if you were playing it with your friends, though.
14:51:21 <itidus21> i imagine they could also make a variant where the ball records the entire arc and lets you replay it panoramically
14:51:49 <itidus21> maybe that would, like all my ideas, be shit in practice and make people throw up
14:53:24 <Sgeo__> I think I know how to give Tcl CL-style conditions.
14:53:33 <fizzie> http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/n900fly/ is the app, I can't recall which year the competition was.
14:53:40 <Sgeo__> Unfortunately, it requires users to list which C-implemented commands can give errors.
14:54:07 <Sgeo__> OR! I could just wrap every single C-implemented command
14:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> like the egg drop competitions of high school physics
14:55:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Phone drop would probably be easier though, since the main thing that damages phones is their shape focusing the impact.
14:56:21 <kmc> sounds like a party Sgeo__
14:56:58 <Sgeo__> Might need to provide a command to tell the library to look for these commands
14:57:55 <Sgeo__> Everyone does agree that CL-style conditions are a good thing, right?
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15:25:07 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should read up on Dylan's condition system, which apparently was based on CL but does... something different, I forget whar
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16:42:21 <zzo38> Do you sometimes make useless schematic diagrams?
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17:04:39 <fizzie> Hey, there are Norwegians on the seminar floor.
17:04:43 <fizzie> What foolishness is this.
17:12:33 <zzo38> What is the most difficult sport?
17:12:42 <zzo38> My answer: Pool ball because the balls (including the white ball) are extremely difficult to hit, even though they aren't moving.
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17:14:56 <fizzie> The most dangerous game.
17:17:43 <Slereah> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1488
17:18:01 <fizzie> Is what I was thinking about.
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17:26:57 <pikhq_> Oh, awesome, there's a *very* useful feature I missed. Linux's seccomp (a very simple sandboxing scheme) got extended somewhat.
17:27:05 <pikhq_> You can now hand it a list of system calls that are permitted.
17:28:00 <pikhq_> Oh, it's a little more complicated than that. You can filter based on the arguments too.
17:28:15 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm very intrigued.
17:28:35 <Gregor> Probably Google's doing, no doubt :)
17:28:54 <zzo38> You might sometimes want to override system calls with your own though, too?
17:29:34 <Gregor> Such a system would be considerably thicker even for non-users, so probably isn't going to happen.
17:29:49 <pikhq_> Gregor: It is, indeed, a Chrome dev.
17:29:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, presumably the feature is intended to contain programs written specifically to run under it, as opposed to being a general purpose sandbox mechanism
17:30:32 <pikhq_> Yeah, they now use it.
17:30:45 <Gregor> They were actually thinking of dropping seccomp, then GNC went “NO NO WANT” and then this happened.
17:30:50 <Vorpal> might be useful for the normal sandboxing that chrome does anyway
17:31:06 <pikhq_> This actually makes native client-esque things *really easy*.
17:31:55 <fizzie> Wasn't Chrome's plugin thing on the old seccomp or something?
17:32:17 <fizzie> "Chrome 20 On Linux Gives Seccomp Filters For Flash" says Google.
17:32:22 <fizzie> (The search, not the company.)
17:32:54 <Sgeo__> What's done for Windows?
17:33:19 <fizzie> (Also don't they canonically and puntastically abbreviate that thing as NaCl?)
17:34:32 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Segmentation to restrict the address space code can access, an ABI designed so they can statically verify certain things.
17:35:16 <fizzie> I just remember the nop-padding so that all branch targets are divisible by something so that they can guarantee nothing jumps in the middle of an opcode.
17:35:17 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, they do, but I refuse.
17:35:19 <Gregor> On the grounds that no.
17:35:32 <fizzie> Natrium Client. Native Chloride.
17:35:35 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yeah, that's part of it.
17:35:55 <fizzie> That's for NaCl, though; do they do any sandboxing for the Flash plugin on Windows?
17:36:38 <pikhq_> The Pepper plugin API runs under NaCl, yes.
17:37:08 <fizzie> Ah, it's part of the same thing.
17:37:21 <Gregor> http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/ Valve sez: OpenGL is faster than Direct3D... even on Windows.
17:37:32 <pikhq_> Gregor: They are using DirectX 9, though.
17:37:52 <pikhq_> Which is Microsoft's old shit that they only keep around for backwards compatibility.
17:38:21 <Gregor> pikhq_: Uh, then why are they using it?
17:38:30 <pikhq_> Gregor: Newer versions don't work on XP.
17:38:36 <pikhq_> Because Microsoft is a bunch of assholes.
17:38:48 <fizzie> There was an "advanced DirectX 11" seminar 30 metres to the left few hours ago, with Smash/Fairlight speaking. It was... popular.
17:38:51 <zzo38> I do have idea make a different kind of computer, there is no operating system but BIOS calls require NMI which also enables the other hardware to be used, or you can move a jumper to always enable the other hardware and disable the security system (which, other than this, is similar to a UNIX security). You can move another jumper to reflash the BIOS ROM if you want to change it.
17:38:59 <pikhq_> (this is the first time they've made a version of DirectX that *doesn't* work on older Windows, FWIW)
17:39:23 <zzo38> What version of DirectX works only on Windows 8?
17:39:57 <pikhq_> Dunno. DirectX 11.1 ships with it, but they might intend to do a release for Windows 7 at some point.
17:40:43 <fizzie> pikhq_: DirectX 9 isn't available for Windows 95; 8.0a is newest. Or so they say.
17:41:18 <pikhq_> fizzie: Oh, look, they broke compatibility with the *oldest* version they could possibly work with.
17:41:52 <fizzie> Well, Wikipedia table implies (though doesn't quite say) that 8.1 is also the best you can get on 98, Me and 2000.
17:41:59 <zzo38> What version of DirectX works only on Windows 9.999?
17:42:19 <pikhq_> I've *used* 9 on 2000.
17:43:03 <fizzie> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35 "Supported operating systems: Windows 7, Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1, Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2, Windows Server 2008, Windows Vista, Windows XP Service Pack 2, Windows XP Service Pack 3" (Could be a different download, of course.)
17:43:31 <pikhq_> They did break compatibility with 9.c, yes.
17:44:39 <fizzie> Anyway, even a nitpicky counter-example is still a counter-example. :p
17:44:59 <pikhq_> It does seem you could use older versions of DirectX 9 on Windows 98, though.
17:45:24 <pikhq_> And then they went and made it so you couldn't use DirectX 10 on XP. ... Which, at the time, was the most popular version of Windows.
17:45:35 <fizzie> 98, but maybe not on 95. (Or NT 4.0.)
17:45:43 <pikhq_> And even now is at least significant enough you might well want to support it.
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17:46:07 <FreeFull> So I've been playing with Game of Life rules
17:46:32 <FreeFull> Does anyone know if there is a spaceship possible in B3/S12
17:46:41 <fizzie> Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's anything newer than DirectX 3 for NT 4.0. So there, they've broken it twice, even when looking at major numbers only.
17:46:50 <FreeFull> I did find one in B3/S125 but not in B3/S12 yet
17:48:07 <itidus21> valve is also a bunch of assholes :>
17:48:27 <itidus21> i guess one bunch of assholes can get annoyed by another
17:48:47 <elliott> FreeFull: I think there's a database of whether certain lifelike rules have spaceships.
17:48:49 <fizzie> Next up on the left: "Occlusion culling for the next generation", by someone from Umbra.
17:48:49 <elliott> I don't recall where it is, though.
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17:50:10 <FreeFull> The spaceship I found in B3/S125 is pretty neat. It moves at c/6 diagonally
17:52:20 <Taneb> FreeFull, I don't recognise you. You new?
17:53:55 <HackEgo> FreeFull: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:54:09 <fizzie> fungot: You welcome him too. Learn some manners from the other bots.
17:54:11 <fungot> fizzie: " my beautiful zoe, i live only for glory, but he does not resemble me. you well know, that without the guide and light of sound, well-understood principles, all those evils which are attributed to corruption may, with equal wisdom, provided for the return of the bourbons.
17:54:17 <Sgeo__> Reason I didn't do that earlier is because that's usually used for people who haven't indicted that they're aware that this is not for "the other kind of esoterica"
17:54:23 <fizzie> I, uh... maybe not quite in that way.
17:54:29 <Sgeo__> You've indicated awareness, so it's all good
17:55:32 <FreeFull> I really like the befunge family for some reason
17:55:44 <Sgeo__> fungot is written in befunge
17:55:45 <fungot> Sgeo__: false policy in our war with france or america, the refuge of the oppressed from everywhere ( who can pay fifty dollars' fnord one except a fnord up for human rights everywhere, even helping china let people in free when she wants to collect fifty dollars upon them.
17:56:29 <Taneb> FreeFull, two important questions?
17:56:38 <Taneb> Do you live in Hexham?
17:56:47 <Taneb> How about Finland?
17:57:15 <Taneb> They're statistical anomalies in the esoteric world
17:57:18 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:57:23 <fizzie> You can see what makes fungot tick there.
17:57:24 <fungot> fizzie: but there is one member of the committee of public safety. irruption of the mob, one a term of fifty, another a term of twenty-eight years. in ten years.
17:58:11 <Taneb> Yeah, that's not really near Hexham nor Finland
17:58:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
17:58:56 <Taneb> Hexham's a town in Northumberland where at least 1 in 6000 people are in this channel RIGHT NOW
17:58:58 <FreeFull> Does fungot do markov modelling?
17:58:59 <fungot> FreeFull: the following is a list of the fnord of nations. but, it is impossible, sir, this defence is unworthy of a man, and diffident about appearing before legislative bodies, and of manly sincerity for which i have mentioned, have no objection to the " greatest happiness fnord supposition which may be found among its defects.
17:59:50 <Taneb> Finland is similar, but a country that isn't in Northumberland
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18:00:39 <Taneb> (Hexham has population 12000ish)
18:00:42 <FreeFull> 1 in 6000 people in finland are in here?
18:00:54 <FreeFull> The population of Finland is a lot smaller than I thought
18:01:11 <Taneb> Just about 15% of this channel is Finnish
18:01:15 <fungot> Taneb: " now you talk like a human being who is fnord around and teaching school, and thou must be.
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18:01:41 <FreeFull> fungot's source link doesn't seem to work
18:01:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are fnord around the teaching school | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:01:41 <fungot> FreeFull: a radical war song, a. lincoln. washington. february 3, 1862_ a change. but nowhere has the revolution been more complete and violent than in england.
18:01:56 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:02:44 <Taneb> fizzie, fix it please?
18:02:46 <fizzie> FreeFull: I'd spew out my usual few-hundred-word explanation of fungot babble, but I've done it so many times... but yeah, it technically speaking has the Markov property. It generates by sampling from a variable-length n-gram model, implementation-wise.
18:02:47 <fungot> fizzie: i say, blame him for this? not merely because i had unworthily filled the chair of the house of commons.
18:02:53 <fizzie> Taneb: It works for me. :/
18:02:57 <fizzie> And I'm not even at home.
18:03:16 <Taneb> Has fungot's server's ISP fell out with the UK?
18:03:27 <Taneb> I'll take that as a yes
18:03:39 <fizzie> Taneb: Seems that it works over IPv6, but not over IPv4. I'll try to get it fixed at some point, but not from here.
18:03:54 <Taneb> Yeah, IPv6 is rare in the UK
18:03:59 <FreeFull> My ISP is shitty and doesn't offer IPv6
18:04:03 <fizzie> In the meanwhile, fungot.b98 is at http://sprunge.us/hGRJ
18:04:04 <fungot> fizzie: if i have anything to do with the question. yet it does somehow happen that this evening, and the hateful institution, like a second deity, fnord to the senate.
18:04:10 * pikhq_ mutters at the objections to NaCl
18:04:19 <pikhq_> "It's not HTML" is an actual objection.
18:04:46 <pikhq_> Like, people think the HTML/Javascript/bullshit stack is *actually good*
18:04:52 <pikhq_> And Google should focus on improving that.
18:05:22 <pikhq_> *This* is the reason Mozilla doesn't intend to support NaCl.
18:06:57 <Taneb> FreeFull, http://hpaste.org/raw/72555
18:07:03 <Sgeo__> It's made of sodium and chloride, therefore it's poisonous
18:07:41 <pikhq_> Incidentally, the whole lack-of-portability aspect in NaCl is going away. Google's currently trying to make it so it works using LLVM bytecode.
18:08:20 <FreeFull> Taneb: fizzie already linked a copy
18:08:23 <pikhq_> And they won't have it on by default in Chrome until that's done.
18:08:27 <zzo38> Does that mean you can program it in any programming language which can compile to LLVM?
18:08:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Could you retry the original source URL. For some reason, even the v4 access suddenly started to work for me, while I was tcpdumping to find out what's wrong.
18:09:16 <Taneb> Seems like an ISP problem?
18:09:22 <fizzie> I didn't change any configuration or anything.
18:09:27 <pikhq_> zzo38: I think it might require a few extra bits so it'll comply with the portable NaCl ABI, *but* that seems like a very minor thing.
18:09:41 <fizzie> I don't know, they could be inbound-filtering port 80 but they haven't so far.
18:09:49 <fizzie> Don't see why it'd suddenly start working.
18:09:59 <fizzie> SSHing in worked the whole time.
18:10:22 <Sgeo__> So, Common Lisp in the browser?
18:10:42 <zzo38> So I think it would include: C, C++, Objective-C, Objective-C++, Haskell, LLVM IR coding, possibly others too, does it include Pascal?
18:10:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: Quite plausibly.
18:11:02 <Sgeo__> Hmm, C can be compiled to LLVM, right? So Tcl?
18:11:30 <fizzie> FreeFull: You hit my "on the TODO list for the last several months" bug of not filtering CTCP control character (\x01) on the first try. Congratulations.
18:12:03 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: There's already some work on Tcl in NaCl, BTW.
18:12:21 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome
18:12:25 <zzo38> I have checked, LLVM now could support the Pascal ranged types, I guess, since you can specify the valid range when loading a value.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Many of those are brainfuck things.
18:12:34 <fizzie> (Many of those are very inane.)
18:13:34 <zzo38> But I have been told that LLVM cannot optimize brainfuck codes very well.
18:13:47 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Also, anything on NaCl has access to the HTML DOM.
18:14:51 <Taneb> pikhq_, Is there an API for that or something
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18:26:45 <FreeFull> ^bf +.++++ +++[- >++++ ++++< ]>+.+ +.<++ ++[-> ++++< ]>+.< +++[- >---< ]>--.+++++ +.-.< +++++ +[->- ----- <]>-- ----- ---.< +++++ ++++[ ->+++ ++++++<]>+ +++++ .<+++ [->-- -<]>- ----. --..+ ++++. ----- --.<+ ++[-> +++<]>++++ +.<>>>>>+.
18:28:54 <fizzie> It doesn't look cut off.
18:29:19 <fizzie> Seems to be a netsplit kind of thing.
18:29:36 <fizzie> As seen from the bot's console IRC-rawlog, we all don't exist.
18:30:31 <fizzie> I think that's Freenode's job.
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18:33:59 <fizzie> Hey, freenode people: fix it.
18:34:07 <fizzie> (I'm sure you're sniffing in our private things.)
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18:37:36 <Taneb> I wonder what happened on the other side of that split
18:37:44 <zzo38> <CTCP>PING netsplittest<CTCP>
18:38:03 <Taneb> fizzie, I was on your side
18:38:19 <fizzie> Yes, but fungot was on another side.
18:38:22 <fungot> fizzie: " it pronounces that there exists a real, not a blemish upon it; for it seems to be, either a truism or a contradiction in terms; and that difficulty is as complete in the case of a mere majority ( say of one) shall pass with them and with least inconvenience to the litigants. it was pleasant to hear that i am not one of them to know that a salutary change has taken place which makes them ten times as strong as the reas
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18:39:44 <itidus21> darn i was on the log bot's side
18:39:53 <FreeFull> I saw both fungot and fizzie split away from me
18:39:54 <fungot> FreeFull: whilst the inferior people were thus insensibly led into a better order, the foundation of other thrones: they must be just as true for the punjab and the united provinces, that there are
18:40:02 <FreeFull> So seems to be a multi-server split
18:40:13 <zzo38> Some appear to be slow
18:40:50 <FreeFull> fungot: You can just filter any character whose value is below 32
18:40:51 <fungot> FreeFull: in reference to every case, showing the determined and daring character of the men i see at these tables, or how soon our better half of human nature
18:41:11 <fizzie> FreeFull: But then I couldn't have any bold.
18:41:17 <fizzie> (I had it that way originally.)
18:41:22 <fizzie> Currently it only filters 10.
18:42:04 <FreeFull> Filters 10 because otherwise someone could take control of the bot?
18:42:36 <zzo38> It should filter at least 0x00 0x0A 0x0D and perhaps also 0x01 0x03 0x07
18:42:54 <fizzie> I think it might filter 13 too.
18:43:02 <quintopia> show me your previous work FreeFull
18:43:05 <zzo38> It should filter 13 too.
18:43:26 <FreeFull> what does it do for infinite loops?
18:43:31 <fizzie> It just results in a truncated message, though.
18:43:32 <FreeFull> quintopia: I'm afraid I don't have any
18:43:40 <zzo38> It ought to filter 0.
18:44:05 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
18:44:11 <fizzie> zzo38: Actually, it "filters" 0 in that it doesn't output it. It just cuts it at that point.
18:44:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: It runs something like 30k or 100k cycles of the underlying intermediate bytecode.
18:44:38 <zzo38> Filter 0 like that is OK I guess
18:45:13 <itidus21> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?
18:45:27 <fizzie> Cells are wraparound with 8 bits, and the tape is 1000 cells and cyclic.
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18:50:12 <Sgeo__> The Google Web Store requirement part is annoying
18:50:38 <Vorpal> 64 GB MicroSD cards are fascinating... That you can fit that much in something so small
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18:51:39 <Sgeo__> Oh, apparently that's going to change
18:52:21 <Taneb> Vorpal, imagine how it will be like in 3 years
18:52:27 <Taneb> 256 GB MicroSDs...
18:52:35 <nooga> i'm trying to procedurally generate sand dunes heightmap
18:53:35 <itidus21> nooga: so.. i know you didn't ask my opinion but, what is under a desert?
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18:53:48 <itidus21> does what is under a desert affect the shape of the dunes?
18:53:48 <Taneb> itidus21, rock, generally
18:54:21 <itidus21> or can we assume that sand dunes form upon a base of sand? :D
18:54:49 <Taneb> nooga, how's that going?
18:54:51 <itidus21> clearly its better to just let me on my way
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19:05:37 <zzo38> Can you invent any game played using snooker balls or pool balls?
19:07:58 <quintopia> not one better than fantasy classique
19:08:14 <zzo38> What does that mean?
19:09:06 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_billiards
19:13:09 <itidus21> we begin by adding a cage net around the table
19:14:01 <itidus21> and placing some of the pockets on the top of cylinders on the table
19:14:23 <zzo38> How can you strike the ball if there is a cage net?
19:15:03 <quintopia> still not a better game than fantaisie classique :)
19:16:34 <itidus21> hmm you could use a spider i suppose
19:17:50 <itidus21> or.. perhaps something where both players send the balls to smash together
19:18:16 <quintopia> is snooker the one with the mushrooms on the table?
19:18:43 <zzo38> Snooker is the one with fifteen red balls and various other color of balls on the table.
19:18:52 <itidus21> 2 balls, 1 hole, and a countdown after which both players may hit their ball precisely once
19:19:52 <Vorpal> snooker trick shots can be quite interesting to watch
19:20:03 <itidus21> wow you guys really know a lot
19:20:17 <Vorpal> personally I don't find that type of sport interesting in themselves
19:20:36 <itidus21> still, i feel like i wasted my life by not learning largely useless trivia
19:21:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, snooker is snooker?
19:22:46 <quintopia> found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_pool
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19:23:28 <Vorpal> quintopia, no, snooker is played on a much larger board?
19:23:42 <quintopia> Vorpal: i don't know what you are going on about.
19:23:42 <Vorpal> or with smaller balls than that picture
19:23:54 <Vorpal> <quintopia> is snooker the one with the mushrooms on the table? <quintopia> oh it's "bar billiards" <quintopia> found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_pool
19:23:58 <quintopia> but is successfully found the game i was looking for, so you can talk to ourself about it
19:24:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, not the same thread of thought?
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20:20:59 <Taneb> There are a lot of subreddits...
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20:30:00 <Sgeo__> pikhq, what do you think of this? (In #tcl person who'd rather see 8.6 released ASAP even if coredumps occur)
20:37:41 <kmc> confucius say billiards is wrong because man with nine balls cannot walk
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21:19:02 <itidus21> something is very wrong here: http://www.gamingunion.net/newsimg/theatrhythm-final-fantasy-review.jpg
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21:34:07 <oerjan> there's a Tardis monad?
21:35:24 <oerjan> https://github.com/DanBurton/tardis it seems
21:35:55 * Sgeo misread monad as command
21:36:01 <Sgeo> So was thinking Tcl instead of Haskell
21:36:20 <oerjan> as punishment you shall have to implement that.
21:42:55 <Sgeo> I'm already trying to get my mind around doing dynamically-scoped variables in the presence of coroutines
21:44:01 <Sgeo> And being told not to try using a seemingly useful Tcl command because it's likely to be buggy, and I might cause a core dump and if that happens, then they'll have to fix it which will delay release
21:46:17 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently lexand__ isn't one of the 5-HT_2A agonist people.
21:46:22 <shachaf> I thought everyone you knew was.
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22:02:41 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/hackenv': File exists \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23453 \ /hackenv/bin/paste: line 14: /hackenv/paste/paste.23453: No such file or directory
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22:15:27 <itidus21> Sgeo: they should just release it with the proviso "don't use this command in this release it's buggy and it may cause a coredump"
22:16:34 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:17:04 <itidus21> im glad that my query failed cos it felt kind of abusive
22:17:30 <Sgeo> `pastelogs life
22:17:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.331
22:17:44 <Sgeo> Why did the first one not work?
22:25:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19893
22:26:43 <itidus21> little did you know that tcl was embedded in that id
22:28:32 <Sgeo> I was vacillating between Lisp and Tcl in February? Really?
22:33:02 <FreeFull> Nothing wrong with Lisp, as long as you choose the right implementation
22:33:27 <itidus21> so, i'm interested in total functions. i think they're wonderful things.
22:33:29 * Sgeo has become a Tcl person.
22:35:17 <itidus21> Sgeo: yes, finally out of the closeTCLoset. but i can't help feeling that my way of discussing it is inappropriate
22:37:54 <Sgeo> Huh, so elliott once wanted to make a Tcl-inspired language
22:37:57 <Sgeo> How did that go?
22:39:40 <elliott> cpressey's new language is tclish
22:39:52 <elliott> btw you're not a tcl person because you won't be a tcl person in N days for some N
22:40:41 <Sgeo> Well, Tcl-liker?
22:41:26 <oerjan> FreeFull: some random seeding with MCell doesn't seem to throw up any spaceships for your CA...
22:42:08 <oerjan> and only few oscillators
22:43:56 <oerjan> and stuff seems to move not very far from the seeded rectangle
22:44:07 <kmc> shachaf: that's stupid that you thought that
22:44:29 <kmc> i'm in a bad mood so i'm not going to try to be nice about it
22:45:16 <Phantom__Hoover> We haven't had a good CA discussion in ages (oko doesn't count because he just monologues.)
22:45:28 <oerjan> B12/S3 isn't complicated enough to be unknown
22:46:27 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/
22:46:42 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b12s3/
22:46:47 <elliott> @tell FreeFull http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b12s3/
22:49:13 <itidus21> kmc: after visiting the brothel that one time i bought a bottle of pheromones
22:49:33 <itidus21> it eventually leaked into my drawer also somehow
22:49:58 <itidus21> no, lol. that virtual reality which has both brothels and pheromones
22:50:14 <oerjan> which seems harder to google :(
22:50:21 <elliott> @tell FreeFull sorry -- http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3s12/
22:50:22 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: which site?
22:50:26 <elliott> @tell FreeFull so there are gliders
22:50:30 <itidus21> you don't wanna know about my second life activities
22:50:30 <elliott> oerjan: the one i linked???
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22:51:29 <itidus21> i have other stories.. but.. thats enough for today
22:52:24 <itidus21> i also saw the episode of bottom where they buy some pheromones and visit a bar
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22:54:03 <oerjan> elliott: should we tell itidus21 and Sgeo to get a channel?
22:54:23 <elliott> no i want to keep hearing itidus21's stories here
22:54:34 <itidus21> i am trying to cheer up kmc with that anecdote
22:55:16 <oerjan> never play the theremin on pheromones
22:56:22 <lambdabot> FreeFull: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:56:25 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, wait, what's the relevance of the 5-HT2A receptor?
22:56:38 <elliott> FreeFull: oh, i didn't realise you were still in the channel, sorry :)
22:56:54 <FreeFull> elliott: They are pretty big, no wonder I didn't find them
22:57:05 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: a group of people studying and documenting the effects of different stuff if i understand right
22:58:29 <itidus21> .... sorry by studying i meant using.. and
22:59:15 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: I just use golly
22:59:18 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: they are "chemists" who do things to neurons, if you catch my drift
22:59:29 <itidus21> i don't think this is helping..
23:01:03 <FreeFull> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3s125/g1.html This is the same glider I found for B3/S125
23:01:58 <oerjan> elliott: wait, do you want me to ban everyone, including myself again?
23:03:44 * oerjan suddenly wonders if that means something in geek code
23:04:17 -!- itidus21 has left ("With over 150 related products we have the KVM switching solution for you").
23:04:43 <FreeFull> The chanmode +b *!*@* bans everybody
23:05:11 <elliott> i think oerjan knows +b :P
23:05:25 <oerjan> he probably has his doubts.
23:05:27 <FreeFull> In what languages other than shell is :(){ :|:&};: legal code?
23:06:11 <FreeFull> I don't know any where that's the case though
23:06:39 <oerjan> maybe you could get that into a pascal program, {} is comments there
23:06:50 <elliott> that's valid forth, if you make some predefinitions
23:06:54 <elliott> but that's a rather trivial property
23:06:58 <oerjan> hm ;: probably won't work
23:07:22 <oerjan> is it valid agda? (/me doesn't know agda but has heard rumors)
23:07:39 <FreeFull> It would be valid brainfuck (just treated entirely as a comment)
23:07:49 <FreeFull> But there isn't anything that isn't valid brainfuck
23:08:31 <FreeFull> But it would be valid brainfuck in this case
23:08:36 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: both of them? or even with the space?
23:09:06 <Phantom__Hoover> () has a special meaning but I suspect it needs whitespace for that.
23:11:14 <Sgeo> itidus is an SL person?
23:11:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: there seems to be evidence for that
23:11:52 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: : is a line comment delimiter in TeX if you write \catcode`:=14
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23:15:14 <Phantom__Hoover> It's probably legal in Perl with some wrangling beforehand.
23:16:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Oi, kallisti, you're the poor fool who thinks perl is a good language.
23:17:45 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that although both Tcl and Lisp could make a good-looking do-like (as in Haskell's do) construct, it would be easier in Lisp because in Tcl you'd have to parse a string if you want it to look the way Tcl code generally looks
23:18:00 <zzo38> Finally I thought of how the macro in Ibtlfmm should be working: There is 2 kind of macros, file macros and module macros. Even module macros there is also 2 kind, open macros and closed macros. And it is possible for some module to import an open macro but export it as closed.
23:18:40 <kallisti> Phantom__Hoover: what are you attempting to do?
23:19:40 <kallisti> I'll assume source filters is cheating
23:20:18 <kallisti> I don't even know what : does in perl actually
23:20:22 <zzo38> The only way I know how : as comment is in TeX and in Forth if preceded and followed by a space.
23:20:52 <Sgeo> source filters?
23:21:06 <kallisti> you can run perl code on the source files of other perl code before they're compiled
23:21:22 <kallisti> it's used to modify the language syntax.
23:21:37 <Sgeo> That.... does it receive the code as a string?
23:22:11 <Sgeo> That... seems like it could be harder to deal with than Tcl, even though Tcl also sees Tcl code in terms of strings --- Tcl syntax is very simple
23:22:45 <kallisti> there are some modules that abstract over this to make it easy to define specific syntactic constructs
23:23:13 <Sgeo> I'm just going to assume that Tcl is easier
23:24:55 * Sgeo raises an eyebrow
23:25:49 <Sgeo> Well, I guess you'd have some trouble (aka impossible) with whole-code transforms such as turning a bunch of stuff into CPS
23:28:04 <Sgeo> kallisti, how much do you know about Tcl?
23:29:26 <kallisti> enough to know that I'm not interested in this conversation
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23:36:05 <FreeFull> In lisp, the code is lists, so you can use the same operations you'd use on lists of data to modify the code
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23:39:50 <Sgeo> In Tcl, the code is strings, and some strings are lists and all lists are strings...
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23:40:10 <Sgeo> It's not perfect, not quite like Lisp, but it's workable
23:43:29 <oerjan> in haskell, the code is just a braided ring over a category of prepromorphisms, so you can use the same operations you'd use on braided rings over categories of prepromorphisms to construct a new code
23:45:07 <oerjan> It's not workable, unlike Lisp and TCL, but it's perfect
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