00:01:20 <zzo38> I have been told about make a computer, to make a BIOS ROM to be shadow, and can use DMA for hard drive and optical drive.
00:02:37 <kmc> yeah, i was assuming a centralized vendor with a single linear sequence of struct versions
00:02:46 <kmc> (you can deprecate and ignore some fields, of course)
00:06:44 <zzo38> I have thought about using the sizeof command in C to identify structure types in macros, by the size of one of the elements, or something like that. If you can use a zero-length array field, then you can use it not takes up space but can be use with sizeof(b.a[0]) to see what size of type using
00:07:37 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
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00:12:28 <shachaf> >>> False, True = True, False
00:15:11 <Sgeo> shachaf, all you neeed are Frue, Talse, and Floyd
00:15:23 <Sgeo> oerjan knows what I'm talking about, but he's not here right now
00:15:47 <shachaf> >>> False, True = True, Fnord
00:16:15 <Sgeo> http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/29
00:16:35 <kmc> >>> 256 is 255+1
00:16:35 <kmc> >>> 257 is 256+1
00:17:10 <kmc> python has an 'is' operator
00:17:10 <Sgeo> Are you prologging?
00:17:20 <kmc> it tests object identity
00:17:40 * Sgeo used to live in Python
00:17:40 <kmc> the CPython interpreter interns small integers but not large ones
00:17:43 <Sgeo> This is embarrassing.
00:17:53 <kmc> Sgeo: i... don't know what that means
00:18:08 <Sgeo> As in, for many years, Python was my language of choice
00:18:14 <Gregor> kmc: He's admitting to the many years of his life spent being digested by a python.
00:18:21 <kmc> Sgeo: it's a fine language
00:18:26 <kmc> it is my language of choice for many things
00:18:42 <kmc> it has many flaws yes
00:18:45 <kmc> so do all of the other languages i know
00:19:10 <Sgeo> kmc, what are Kernel's flaws?
00:21:01 <kmc> uh i am talking about languages as tools for actually doing things
00:21:10 <kmc> not as objects to wank over on IRC
00:21:25 <kmc> do you still want a list?
00:22:19 <Sgeo> Oh, well, I guess main flaw then is lack of libraries?
00:22:34 <kmc> that is one of many
00:22:51 <kmc> how many people in the world have written more than 1000 lines of Kernel code?
00:23:00 <kmc> the answer to that question may very well be "one"
00:23:14 <kmc> most projects require working with other people
00:23:21 <Sgeo> How is Common Lisp as a tool for doing things?
00:23:32 * Sgeo knows how Tcl was, at least for the one bot he made
00:23:35 <kmc> also, there is only one extant implementation of Kernel, right?
00:23:52 <kmc> is it robust? is it fast? does it have necessary tools like a debugger, profiler, etc?
00:24:09 <kmc> well, a lot more people know CL than know Kernel ;P
00:24:27 <kmc> and it's an old language with a bunch of implementations and tools
00:24:33 <kmc> and libraries
00:24:55 <kmc> but still much less popular than, say, Python
00:25:11 <kmc> Lisp advocates will say that this is OK because the people who know Lisp are better (better programmers, and better human beings generally)
00:25:20 <kmc> (Haskellers say the same thing too)
00:25:24 <kmc> there is something to that
00:25:34 <kmc> but it's not always enough
00:25:47 <kmc> some projects just require a lot of code
00:26:01 <kmc> especially if you do not have time to sit around and think up the most clever way to do it
00:26:43 <Sgeo> Wanted to use a library. Because I wanted to give someone else just a bunch of files so they could run the bot, rather than telling them to install ActiveTcl, I was stuck to one implementation (tclkit). I had a hard time getting a library I needed to work properly on it, and ended up using an obsolete version of the library. Said obsolete version is missing features that I would have found useful.
00:28:57 <kmc> Sgeo: if you want to talk about the language design itself, my biggest concern with a language like Kernel is that it will be very hard to make an efficient implementation
00:29:03 <kmc> anything resembling a compiler
00:29:19 <kmc> but i have not read what Shutt wrote on that topic, so I can't claim to be an expert
00:31:09 <kmc> programmers spend too much time talking about languages
00:33:29 <shachaf> , Writes Area #Esoteric Man
00:33:38 <kmc> i do realize what channel i'm in
00:33:56 <kmc> which is why i haven't ranted at Sgeo a lot more already :)
00:34:51 <Sgeo> Yeah, I have a feeling that if talking about languages isn't your thing, you won't like me or my blog
00:35:10 <Sgeo> Speaking of which, I should start writing my post
00:35:59 <kmc> i do like talking about languages quite a lot :)
00:36:16 <kmc> but it's important to have perspective
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00:36:40 <kmc> if you are talking about overall success of a project or company
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00:37:14 <kmc> then the design of a language is less important than its ecosystem
00:37:29 <kmc> and the choice of language is less important than other technical decisions
00:37:48 <kmc> and technical decisions are often less important than business decisions
00:38:15 <kmc> obviously you can choose a language which is so wrong for the task that it cripples the company
00:38:23 <kmc> but i don't think many web startups fail because they picked python over ruby or vice versa
00:38:30 <shachaf> #esoteric can point to dozens of those!
00:38:42 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
00:38:50 <shachaf> That's a terrible bot prefix.
00:38:55 <Sgeo> So many channels!
00:39:42 <Sgeo> And is popular
00:39:43 <kmc> PHP is an awful, awful language but it has a huge amount of documentation, libraries, people, etc.
00:39:51 <kmc> and an implementation which makes it very easy to get started
00:40:01 <kmc> and this is why PHP is so successful, for good or for ill
00:40:34 <Sgeo> I am in so many channels right now
00:40:43 <Sgeo> #/etc/passwd is a valid channel name
00:40:43 <oonbotti> root:x:0:0:Root Administrator:/root:/bin/ksh\nnobody:x:99:99:Unprivileged User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nwww:x:80:80:Web Server User:/var/www:/bin/false\nmessagebus:x:25:25:DBUS Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nhaldaemon:x:26:26:HAL Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\njuhani:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/home/juhani:/bin/ksh\n
00:40:51 <kmc> #/etc/shadow
00:41:29 <kmc> #:(){ :|:& };:
00:42:12 <shachaf> nortti: Your bot is trouble.
00:42:54 <kmc> #ass-butts
00:44:05 <kmc> Sgeo: what's your blog post about?
00:44:14 <Sgeo> kmc, it's going to be about name conflicts
00:44:21 <kmc> do you have a blog already?
00:44:30 <Sgeo> kmc, I linked it before?
00:44:43 <Sgeo> http://sgeoster.blogspot.com
00:44:47 <kmc> ah, i missed it
00:45:01 <kmc> not much content yet ;)
00:45:56 * Sgeo goes AFK for a bit to organize his thoughts
00:46:21 <Sgeo> It strikes me that, once I'm working in a corporate environment, I won't be able to just take a shower to collect my thoughts.
00:46:26 <Sgeo> I tend to do that when programming.
00:49:12 <kmc> hey cool, i missed this article the first time around: https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/the_top_10_tricks_of
00:49:23 <kmc> Sgeo: a lot of office buildings have showers actually
00:49:43 <kmc> it's really nice if you are biking to work
00:49:46 <kmc> or sleeping under your desk
01:00:56 <Sgeo> fwiw, I've seen libraries for accessing Python stuff from CL
01:00:59 <Sgeo> It looks unmaintained though
01:01:39 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that what would be very good would be a Perl FFI for CL... allowing access to CPAN stuff
01:02:26 <kmc> that would be cool
01:04:53 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about the old Linux exploit relating to /etc/cron.d and corefiles?
01:06:43 <Sgeo> FWIW, it's possible to talk to .NET from CL
01:06:56 <Sgeo> But the tool's name is about as understandable as Perl
01:07:03 <kmc> does it work?
01:07:10 <Sgeo> Haven't tried it
01:07:13 <Sgeo> It's called RDNZL
01:07:41 <Sgeo> http://weitz.de/rdnzl/
01:09:56 <Sgeo> "RDNZL is currently targeted at Microsoft Windows."
01:13:12 <Sgeo> "About the name: It was pretty clear to me from the beginning that the name of the library should be "RDNZL." However, I'm not sure what this acronym exactly stands for. Surely, "L" is for "Lisp" and "DN" is for "DotNet". The rest? You'll figure it out... :) "
01:13:17 <Sgeo> http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/RDNZL.html
01:14:54 * Sgeo wonders if that's suitable for use even if something might expect a .NET library
01:15:33 <Sgeo> (In particular, I have Grandroids in mind)
01:15:57 <Sgeo> Oh hey http://www.cliki.net/perl-in-lisp
01:16:13 <Sgeo> "Perl in Lisp is not under active development"
01:16:19 <Sgeo> Oh, it's because there's a thing in CPAN
01:20:36 <Sgeo> (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :perl-in-lisp)
01:20:36 <Sgeo> (perl::eval-perl "3 + 4") ==> 7
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01:20:39 <Sgeo> Well, that's ugly
01:59:25 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/hh-12.html#ss12.2 ?
02:08:55 <shachaf> Wait, so what's the bug? That you can dump a core file in an arbitrary directory?
02:09:36 <kmc> normally setuid programs can't dump core
02:09:48 <kmc> but linux supported a mode where setuid programs could dump a core which was only readable by root
02:10:23 <kmc> setuid: ruining unix since 1970
02:10:30 <shachaf> Where's the setuid in that program?
02:10:45 <shachaf> It looks like it just forks and kills its child with SEGV.
02:14:48 <kmc> maybe it's just that the cwd is not writeable by the user
02:15:00 <kmc> maybe there is another variant of this which involves setuid
02:17:45 <pikhq> Punching a giant big hole through a security scheme will do that.
02:18:27 * shachaf tries to figure out how to get a program to dump core at all.
02:20:37 <pikhq> shachaf: ulimit -c unlimited will let processes dump core.
02:21:11 <pikhq> (most systems are configured so that core doesn't dump, cause otherwise you might get gigs of coredumps)
02:21:53 <shachaf> kmc: What if you allow sudo to run a process in /etc/sudoers? Will that be undumpable too?
02:26:08 <kmc> yeah think so
02:26:13 <kmc> it will have euid != uid
02:26:53 <shachaf> I thought it ran processes as root proper.
02:28:14 <kmc> oh it does set uid and euid
02:28:39 <shachaf> Does that mean you can get it to coredump?
02:28:59 <shachaf> Actually I get PR_DUMPABLE carries over across execs.
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02:36:41 <pikhq> When did the Google favicon change?
02:36:50 * pikhq now sees Bleu celeste, a lowercase g argent.
02:37:08 <shachaf> pikhq: When I open a new Google tab, it shows me the old favicon until the page finishes loading.
02:37:25 <shachaf> Which I assume means it's still in my cache, which I assume means it's pretty recent.
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02:49:40 <pikhq> I think I could actually use a wax seal as a legal signature.
02:50:37 <pikhq> In the US at least, it's a mark or act indicating identity and intent, so it does in fact suffice.
02:52:00 <zzo38> PHP really is pretty bad, I agree. At some time I will rewrite Icoruma in a compiled programming language (such as C or Haskell) because PHP is too slow.
02:52:11 <pikhq> ... Or an email signature.
02:52:25 <pikhq> Oh goodness, an email signature is an actual signature.
02:52:55 <zzo38> I didn't know they were an actual signature
02:53:20 <pikhq> Canadian law might be different, but it wouldn't surprise me.
02:58:00 <lexande> shachaf, Phantom__Hoover: there are no high-speed trains in .fi or in Hexham
02:58:35 <shachaf> lexande: Do you have a /hilight on "train"?
03:00:28 <pikhq> lexande: Everyone knows the Land of Six Pigs only hath pigs six.
03:01:13 <lexande> Hexham has some other things than that
03:01:26 <lexande> for one thing it has better low-speed trains than most places in america
03:01:36 <kmc> finland has 220 km/hr trains
03:01:38 <kmc> "UIC (International Union of Railways) and EC Directive 96/58 define high-speed rail as systems of rolling stock and infrastructure which regularly operate at or above 250 km/h (155 mph) on new tracks, or 200 km/h (125 mph) on existing tracks."
03:01:47 <pikhq> If you want to get people anywhere, certainly.
03:01:53 <pikhq> Curiously, the US has decent freight rail.
03:01:54 <lexande> and it has the tyne which is kind of nice
03:02:06 <lexande> and some bits of hadrian's wall nearby?
03:02:32 <shachaf> And a fair number of mph, too.
03:02:42 <kmc> the passenger lines suck in no small part because the freight railroads are powerful and successful
03:02:46 <shachaf> I think of speeds in mph instead of km/h. :-(
03:02:48 <kmc> and the passenger trains have to run on their lines
03:03:02 <pikhq> And the freight trains preëmpt them.
03:03:15 <shachaf> They are freighteningly successful.
03:03:16 <kmc> and there is regulatory capture of the railroad regulator by the freight railroads
03:03:18 <lexande> preempting isn't the only problem
03:03:21 <kmc> shachaf: -_-
03:03:29 <pikhq> lexande: No, but it does add to the suck.
03:03:30 <lexande> yeah the regulations are written to keep freight costs down
03:03:48 <lexande> which has the effect of making passenger rail costs much higher
03:03:58 <lexande> (for example by requiring all passenger trains to be built like tanks)
03:04:23 <pikhq> Freight rail and passenger rail have *vastly* different demands, but legislation doesn't treat them that way. Bleh.
03:04:43 <lexande> well there is to some degree a genuine conflict of interest
03:05:17 <lexande> in europe all the freight trains are connected to the electronic signalling systems that can automatically make them stop if they might collide with another train
03:05:31 <lexande> which is extra equipment on all the freight trains
03:05:37 <shachaf> A train ticket from here to San Diego costs more than a plane ticket. :-(
03:06:07 <lexande> in america the freight railroads have to pinch every penny to compete with trucking as well as they do
03:06:16 <lexande> and so resist having such equipment required
03:06:37 <lexande> which means collisions are much more likely and regulations applied to passenger rail have to take that into account
03:06:46 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know that when you fly somewhere, there are planeclothes flight attendants all throughout the plane?
03:06:50 <lexande> though even in light of that a lot of the regulations are just dumb, and/or 1950s holdovers
03:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: ?
03:08:40 <kmc> i was afraid so
03:15:00 <shachaf> One of the problems of having a car is that you need to park it somewhere when you go to places. :-(
03:16:06 <lexande> that is one of many reasons not to have a car
03:16:32 <shachaf> There are indeed many reasons not to have one.
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03:20:13 * shachaf tries to figure out what Drop Day is.
03:20:25 <kmc> at Caltech?
03:20:34 <kmc> do you want me to tell you?
03:21:14 <kmc> well it's the last day in the term when you can drop classes
03:21:39 <kmc> but it's also a party held by Dabney Hovse around the same time, in the winter term
03:22:17 <kmc> and now you know
03:23:00 <kmc> each house puts on one big party per year
03:23:14 <kmc> usually involving a fair amount of construction, art, etc., and a fair number of people from outside the school show up
03:24:17 <kmc> the houses used to do them all on the same day, but the resulting party got kinda too big and infamous
03:24:47 <kmc> too many random outsiders showed up, i think somebody got stabbed in the late 80's
03:24:58 <kmc> and so they shut it down and now each house does their own thing
03:25:11 <kmc> (though there have been periodic attempts to bring back the old simultaneous party as well)
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03:30:13 <kmc> why did you want to know?
03:30:43 <shachaf> I heard of a certain type of illicit activity taking place there.
03:31:11 <kmc> did you hear this from me?
03:31:34 <shachaf> No. I probably shouldn't talk about it in a public channel.
03:31:45 <shachaf> It's what they call "srs bzsn", I believe.
03:31:54 <kmc> all right then
03:31:57 <kmc> your discretion is appreciated
03:32:15 <shachaf> Well, they only call it that if they can't spell.
03:32:25 <shachaf> Or can't misspell, in my case.
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03:33:40 <shachaf> Actually I just find it amusing.
03:33:57 <shachaf> I imagine many illicit activities take place at Drop Day.
03:35:30 <kmc> it's the only one of these parties where alcohol is not served
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03:46:41 <zzo38> I have a sign "zawa zawa" that I was wearing at anime convention
03:47:00 <shachaf> zzo38: I see someone wearing a sign "zawa zawa" I'll assume it's you.
03:47:29 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not wearing it right now; I was just wearing at anime convention. Also, it is written using hiragana.
03:48:02 <shachaf> I'm not very good at reading Hiragana. :-(
03:53:13 <pikhq_> Seems psuedoönomatopoeiaish.
03:57:01 <pikhq_> Ah, it's actual onomatopoeia, not psuedoönomatopoeia.
03:57:58 <kmc> whatsit mean
03:58:36 <pikhq_> Noise, like from a bunch of people talking.
03:58:47 <shachaf> WOuldn't onomatopoeia be written with katakana?
03:59:02 <kmc> rutabaga rutabaga
03:59:05 <pikhq_> shachaf: Some are, some aren't.
03:59:12 <pikhq_> There's no consistent rule on that.
03:59:28 <kmc> is there a good reason to have two different alphabets, anyway?
04:00:02 <shachaf> English has two different alphabets which it uses in an even weirder way than Japanese.
04:00:23 <shachaf> E.g. you take a letter from one alphabet if it's at the beginning of a sentence.
04:00:46 <pikhq_> kmc: Not *especially*; it's there largely for hysterical reasons.
04:01:04 <pikhq_> kmc: Though the existence of two different syllabaries does make it somewhat easier to tokenize.
04:01:15 <pikhq_> (Japanese doesn't use spaces)
04:02:05 <shachaf> This person has been asking #haskell the same question for the last 6 hours.
04:02:22 <pikhq_> The use of kanji and kana also makes tokenization a bit easier.
04:02:30 <zzo38> Yes it is sound effect. And yes I know, sound effect generally written by katakana, in this case it is hiragana as Fukumoto has written. There is also ... after it like they have written too
04:02:49 <zzo38> shachaf: What question? Write answer if you know what answer.
04:03:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Then please write answer for them
04:03:28 <shachaf> Not to be confused with (WriterT)
04:03:37 <zzo38> Yes, should not confuse please
04:03:41 <shachaf> zzo38: ddarius did, several times.
04:05:54 <zzo38> I suppose some people do, since it might confuse sometimes, it seems like something that can be confused
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04:20:27 <Sgeo> Gregor, Duck Tales is My Little Penguin.
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04:42:44 <shachaf> 21:40 <Okasu> Cale: just intersept method missing event, match regexp and create apropriate method using simple pattern
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04:51:36 <ion> >> def method_missing(*args) args.join(" ") end; foo bar baz? quux!
04:51:39 <ion> => "foo bar baz? quux!"
04:52:25 <shachaf> That's four calls to method_missing, of course.
04:53:06 <ion> I intercepted four events.
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05:37:20 <Sgeo> shachaf, is Cale asking for Ruby help?
05:42:44 <nortti> 03:40 < Sgeo> #/etc/passwd is a valid channel name // actually I'm on channel #!/bin/mksh right now
05:44:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: Okasu was asking for Haskell help.
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06:30:06 <fizzie> I was on a #!/usr/bin/ff for a long time.
06:44:46 <ion> What’s ff?
06:45:43 <fizzie> ion: A Befunge(-93) interp I wrote.
06:45:51 <ion> sgeo: I think you mean 270
06:45:58 <ion> fizzie: ok
06:46:00 <fizzie> (It was a two-person channel.)
06:46:42 <Sgeo> ion, I assume that's another base but not sure which one. At a guess, octal?
06:47:18 <Sgeo> I... uh... what?
06:47:19 <ion> Octal doesn’t have “f”.
06:48:01 <Sgeo> Oh, you interpreted ff as base 17, not that you wrote "270" in a base other than decimal
06:48:19 <fizzie> And 0xff would be 0377, of course.
06:48:55 <Sgeo> That's a stupid convention to indicate octal with
06:49:11 <fizzie> Be that as it may, it's still a convention.
06:50:13 <Sgeo> What's the language where you can insert commas into numbers and it means nothing except makes large numbers readable?
06:50:55 -!- ion has set topic: Behold! The enchanting pants of Narcissus! | Why is Narcissus panting? | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
06:51:11 <fizzie> Perl lets you insert _s.
06:51:54 <fizzie> !perl print 1_000_000;
06:52:48 <Sgeo> !perl print 1_0
06:52:59 <fizzie> That's also in Java 7 and later, incidentally.
06:53:16 <fizzie> !perl print 0xffff_ffff
06:53:33 <fizzie> It doesn't enforce any sort of specific grouping.
06:53:46 <Sgeo> I assume it's implementable in CL via reader macros?
06:57:55 <itidus21> WP doesn't offer a concrete reason for 3-digit grouping
06:59:15 <itidus21> aside from "Making groups of three digits also emphasizes that there is a base 1000 of the numeral system that is being used"
07:03:33 <Sgeo> Well, I guess it sort of strikes a balance between groups too large to easily verify that the groups are the correct size, and groups too small that means there are too many groups to easily count
07:03:54 <Sgeo> 4-digit groupings might work out, I guess
07:04:48 <itidus21> "[..] in various countries (e.g., China, India, and Japan), there have been traditional conventions of grouping by 2 or 4 digits. These conventions are still observed in some contexts, although the 3-digit group convention is also well known and often used."
07:05:18 <fizzie> People group hex digits in groups of 4 for the obvious reasons.
07:20:20 <fizzie> And the underscore thing seems quite common. Apparently in addition to Perl and Java >=7, also at least Ada, D, OCaml, Ruby do it.
07:20:33 <olsner> japanese has words for 10000 and 100 million
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07:21:02 <olsner> nasm also does it, I suppose a bunch of other assemblers might too
07:21:18 <fizzie> olsner: English also has a word for 10000.
07:21:23 <olsner> itidus21: that's 100 (they also have a word for that!)
07:21:23 <lambdabot> *** "myriad" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
07:21:23 <lambdabot> adj 1: too numerous to be counted; "incalculable riches";
07:21:23 <lambdabot> "countless hours"; "an infinite number of reasons";
07:21:23 <lambdabot> "innumerable difficulties"; "the multitudinous seas";
07:21:31 <fizzie> Well, it'd be the sense 2 of that.
07:21:38 <lambdabot> "myriad stars"; "untold thousands" [syn: {countless},
07:21:38 <lambdabot> {infinite}, {innumerable}, {innumerous}, {multitudinous},
07:21:38 <lambdabot> {myriad}, {numberless}, {uncounted}, {unnumberable},
07:21:38 <lambdabot> n 1: a large indefinite number; "he faced a myriad of details"
07:21:40 <lambdabot> 2: the cardinal number that is the product of ten and one
07:21:42 <lambdabot> thousand [syn: {ten thousand}, {10000}, {myriad}]
07:22:23 <olsner> "the cardinal number that is the product of ten and one" :> if only the last line of that had been dropped for some reason
07:23:13 <olsner> the difference is that japanese use their 10000-word where possible and prefer it over combinations of thousand
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07:24:44 <fizzie> We don't have a word for 10000 at all. :/
07:25:24 <ion> Makes sense for the groupings to match with what words you have for the respective numbers.
07:26:11 <itidus21> well it looks like the word myriad means 10000
07:26:34 <itidus21> <-- stating what has just been said :-s
07:27:11 <olsner> well, there is also a word for 1000, it's just not the significant one
07:27:50 <itidus21> one ten hundred thousand myriad skip a step million
07:28:52 <fizzie> Knuth has apparently suggested a system with 10^4, 10^8, 10^16, 10^32 etc. units (i.e. doubling every time); so that 10^4 = myriad, 10^8 = myllion, 10^16 = byllion, 10^32 = tryllion and so on.
07:30:39 <itidus21> "a mwnt mwnts are a rhiallu, a rhiallu rhiallus are a buna"
07:31:16 <itidus21> i don't like the looks of this
07:31:43 <fizzie> Thai apparently has a word for 100000 too, แสน.
07:32:03 <itidus21> one result for that sentence comes from magickoccult.com
07:32:18 <fizzie> Sounds on-topic for once.
07:32:27 <olsner> japanese does 10^8 as well (oku), don't know if/how they count higher than that
07:34:53 <itidus21> the fact that this topic leads directly to the other esoteric makes me think i have gone too far
07:35:16 <fizzie> I think it was mentioned before, but the "This is an incomplete list" template at the start of Wikipedia's "List of numbers" article still makes for a smile.
07:35:29 <fizzie> Maybe some day they'll complete it.
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07:39:50 <Sgeo> No one will get mad if my first substantiative blog post is about something other than what I said it would be about, right?
07:41:03 <ion> I will get furious.
07:42:40 <oerjan> we will probably ban you. (0 < p < 1)
07:42:57 <Sgeo> What's the usual way to indicate code in blogspot?
07:43:30 <oerjan> see the manual. they _have_ a manual, i hope.
07:54:29 <Sgeo> I'm just going to use <pre> and hope for the best
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08:20:38 <Sgeo> I wish I kept the code I used to check for myself that what some blogger said was wrong
08:30:50 <impomatic> Sgeo: <pre> works for me. I haven't found anything built in. You probably need to convert < and > in your code to HTML entities. Alternatively your editor might have an export to HTML feature...
08:31:36 <Sgeo> This comment by someone else summarized what my post will be about: "And now that I've actually read what that cl:let* is used for, it's not needed all. The body of DEFMACRO is read at read time, so the LET* it uses will be CL:LET*, if the macro is later expanded in a package which has a different LET*, the macro-expnsion still will have CL:LET*, since there's no reading invovled during macroexpansion."
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09:08:18 <Sgeo> I'd be happy if Smalltalk method names were namespaced.
09:08:22 <Sgeo> Have I said that before?
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09:13:09 <oerjan> finally, the secret to happiness!
09:16:00 <Sgeo> I am in a love/hate relationship with the idea of continuation-based web programming.
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09:38:59 <itidus21> "buffoon, clown," 1640s, from Middle English Thom Foole, personification of a mentally deficient man (mid-14th century), see Tom + fool
09:41:09 <itidus21> The name Tom (short for Thomas), was "often a generic name for any male representative of the common people" (OED), so any fool walking down the street was labeled a Tom fool. We still use Tom to refer to a random man in the phrase "Tom, Dick, and Harry."
09:41:40 <ion> shachaf: I think elliott programmed it in sh.
09:43:33 <itidus21> ion: I know, and that was an answer.
09:55:18 * Sgeo ponders a macroapply macro
09:55:36 <shachaf> You should come up with the inverse of a macro.
09:55:55 <shachaf> Where you write code and it generates a function that generates that code.
09:55:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, being unable to pass environments to eval makes it ... not really a doable thing
09:56:35 <Sgeo> shachaf, either I'm misunderstanding or you're asking me to make ... a quine? Or a quine generator?
09:56:49 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I see
09:56:55 <shachaf> I have no idea what I'm asking.
09:57:00 <shachaf> I just wanted to make a pun, man. :-(
09:57:27 <Sgeo> Puns are how all great ideas start!
09:58:04 <Sgeo> Clearly, once your idea is completely deciphered, it will revolutionize computing
09:58:15 <Sgeo> Even if the creator doesn't understand it.
09:58:39 <Sgeo> Hmm, I may be going too far.
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11:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> shachaf, either I'm misunderstanding or you're asking me to make ... a quine? Or a quine generator?
11:15:11 <shachaf> I'm not asking you to make anything, Phantom_Hoover.
11:28:46 <Sgeo> A lot of imaginary difference though.
11:28:57 <Sgeo> It's rather complex.
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13:25:51 <ion> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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13:30:45 <ion> See the preceding comments.
13:36:31 <kmc> hi #esoteric
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13:47:21 * kmc downloads Sarah Palin vs. the Moon Nazis
13:47:34 <ion> That film was funneh.
13:47:49 <kmc> is that better or worse than "funny"?
13:48:12 <ion> I liked it.
13:48:25 <ion> Would watch again.
13:53:04 <nortti> kmc: didn't that have a different name?
13:58:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what & means in a Perl argument list
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14:02:00 <kmc> yes the film is actually called _Iron Sky_
14:02:44 <Sgeo> It's a way to make new syntax in Perl, apparently
14:02:48 <Sgeo> Should I jealous just yet?
14:03:26 <Sgeo> Ah, it seems to be a Tcl-esque-except-not-quite way of doing things
14:03:46 <Sgeo> This breaks the lexical. (Note: I don't know if it actually breaks lexical anything)
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14:21:48 <Sgeo> proc don't (&) {}
14:22:32 <Sgeo> Also http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sad-crab-this-kills-the-crab
14:22:37 <Sgeo> http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Acme-Don-t-1.01/t.pm
14:22:47 <Sgeo> Oh, it's sub don't (&) {}
14:24:24 <kmc> wouldn't you call that the parameter list rather than the argument list?
14:24:32 <kmc> also i didn't know perl even has a parameter list, i'm clearly behind the times
14:24:43 <Sgeo> I don't think it's a parameter list
14:24:56 <Sgeo> I think the docs I found called it a prototype list?
14:25:45 <Sgeo> http://perldoc.perl.org/perlsub.html#Prototypes
14:25:51 <Sgeo> "The interesting thing about & is that you can generate new syntax with it, provided it's in the initial position:
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14:29:22 <kmc> yeah sort of
14:29:47 <kmc> it just lets you use a lambda as an argument without the "sub" keyword
14:29:49 <kmc> reminds me of blocks in ruby
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15:10:13 <kmc> not really "new syntax"
15:12:37 <ion> And *some* languages have so lightweight lambda syntax they don’t need any special syntax for passing a single lambda argument. :-)
15:13:43 <kmc> yeah, like C#
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16:24:49 <zzo38> Do you like The Internationale music? I try to make a rearrangement for NES/Famicom, based on someone else's arrangement
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16:35:46 <zzo38> Currently I use channels ABGHIJKLMNa but I want to add channels CD as well.
16:39:12 <zzo38> (ABMNa = square, C = triangle, D = noise, GHIJKL = FM synth)
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17:27:22 <zzo38> I am not very good to write a percussion are you a percussionist would you know to help such things?
17:31:37 <zzo38> What key do you think The Internationale should be played in?
17:37:04 <zzo38> Is that out of context?
17:37:16 <itidus21> it's within the context of #esoteric
17:37:44 <zzo38> I meant, is the quotation out of context of my question?
17:37:47 <itidus21> technically though it's way out of context
17:39:48 <jlaire> my quote was even more so
17:40:04 * jlaire np. Tim Minchin - F Sharp
17:41:54 <olsner> Trolling to the tune of F# - Jon D. Harrop
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18:29:47 <zzo38> I want to add channel C and D to this arrangement of Internationale but I am not a very good percussionist. I could add C by myself but needs help for D channel noise.
18:30:13 <zzo38> Maybe even add O (saw) channel!
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19:00:18 <kmc> I like the Internationale
19:00:22 <kmc> i frequently find myself humming it
19:00:57 <HackEgo> You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee
19:02:36 <olsner> that's exactly what a commie bastard would say
19:04:04 <nortti> fouund this one in HackEgo's fortune database
19:06:16 <nortti> what is that. fbcon doesn't show that one
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19:07:40 <olsner> ah, that drinking song I was thinking about was to the melody of the internationale after all, but some part in the middle of it
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19:07:50 <kmc> 'DOWN TACK' (U+22A4)
19:08:01 <kmc> used in mathematics for "true" or for the top of a lattice
19:08:15 <zzo38> I added that ASCII art to my own fortune database now
19:09:10 <zzo38> I am using only the music for The Internationale, not the lyrics; I prefer instrumental music that is why.
19:09:47 <nortti> zzo38: I have that constatly show at the top of tty4 which shows info about my system like who is using it, free memory amount, disk space usage and uptime
19:10:33 <zzo38> This is what I have so far: http://sprunge.us/GCKd I intend to add C channel, and possibly other channels such as D or O or b channel, or others
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19:19:12 <fizzie> Sounds like a lot of channels in the thing.
19:19:52 <fizzie> fungot: Say something relevant about the SID, please.
19:19:53 <fungot> fizzie: the values shown.
19:20:04 <fungot> fizzie: cb13cb12cb11 d7 d6 d5 d4 d3 d2 d1 d0 rc2 rc1 rc0 data. this assures tod will always cause any character you want to see how it's set in order to use the and function lets you check if the answer is yes then that number must be specified in the
19:21:21 <fungot> olsner: load"fun",8 ( load a file on disk), you must poke 648 with the next numbers in the kernal for machine language routine that sets the tape.
19:21:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Lot of channels? Yes it uses three expansions, and eleven channels in total. And now I will add triangle channel as well.
19:22:22 <zzo38> PPMCK supports 28 channels in total but I know of no music using all 28 channels.
19:22:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:23:21 <olsner> is there no "all" style?
19:23:52 <zzo38> Can you add it support a "all" style?
19:24:46 <olsner> it'd be neat if it actually worked to mention SID and get a SID-related response
19:25:43 <fizzie> Not easily, if you mean an "automatic" all style. It'd be easiest just to make a combined model.
19:26:13 <zzo38> I do mean an automatic all style, whether or not that is what olsner means.
19:26:46 <olsner> automatically making that combined model sounds easier than having someone manually regenerate the all style after changing any of the other styles
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19:27:10 <fizzie> olsner: Not if you have to implement the former in Funge-98.
19:27:56 <fizzie> It'd be possible, of course. Just not terribly easy. It doesn't actually "load" the models anywhere, just does a lot of seeking and small reads.
19:31:27 <olsner> I suppose Funge-98 might make it unnecessarily difficult
19:33:33 <fizzie> For the combined model, it'd at least have to load the current "node" from all open models, in order to sum the counts.
19:33:53 <fizzie> IIRC it doesn't do that at the moment even for the single model.
19:35:08 <fizzie> Just reads the (stored in the file) sum of all counts, generates a random number < that, and then keeps reading and stops when it hit whatever it hit.
19:36:36 <fizzie> There's also a binary search on the list of children to walk down the tree, that's also done by a seek-read-etc. kind of way.
19:44:18 <zzo38> Then make a program which will make up the combined model automatically, and run that program whenever you update the other files.
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19:45:52 <zzo38> AriesAsrael: I don't know others but I am not looking for a tarot reading.
19:46:05 <zzo38> AriesAsrael: I am, however, looking to buy some tarot cards to play a game.
20:03:07 <FreeFull> fizzie: fungot doesn't actually look at what is being said to it at all, is it? Just that something is being said
20:03:08 <fungot> FreeFull: these special sprite abilities make it play arcade-style action games. you would use the listen routine is directed through this alternate vector, the
20:03:21 <FreeFull> Ignoring of course the other functionality
20:14:18 <fungot> kmc: this same area is larger than 4k bytes, that line is high for basic operation. if you have selected a bank, by using subroutines rather than repeating the same location as the 65xx and similar microprocessor families. sid can process external audio signals to be text, more hollow. that's why the disk drive and 1525 printer is to define variables is lost to the disk)
20:14:31 <kmc> ^style jargon
20:14:32 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
20:14:35 <fungot> kmc: well, actually, kronos didn't have any such inclination, you useless twerps. if tla press the wrong place at the latest constructive contribution: by august 24th, 1993
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20:15:55 <fizzie> "sid can process external audio signals to be text, more hollow."
20:17:33 <fungot> olsner: flame on to bsd. so i dropped in on a wart.") but then, of
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20:18:44 <olsner> how does fungot decide how much to output?
20:18:45 <fungot> olsner: isn't there some pending federal law against colorizing things that were down or otherwise fail operate correctly." but stopped myself just to see a serious critique of unix: celibacy. what brain-damage! you would like proofreaders, i'm not
20:19:05 <olsner> celibacy. what brain-damage!
20:20:19 <olsner> fungot. what brain-damage!
20:20:19 <fungot> olsner: perhaps opensystems is a test. from sh type ' term=termtype;export term'.
20:23:22 <FreeFull> Somehow markov bots are less amusing when you can't hold a conversation with them and they don't learn from input
20:23:57 <fizzie> Oh, but you can always hold a conversation; it might just be a bit nonsensical conversation.
20:24:59 <olsner> a bit like speaking to yourself, but with more FUNgot
20:25:00 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you ever learn?
20:25:01 <fungot> fizzie: except that i'm just getting silly! it's fried potatoes. jamie zawinski
20:25:20 <fungot> olsner: and who'd even like to have a visit there sometime.
20:26:46 <fizzie> I was thinking of using the input phrase as the initial context, but it doesn't currently know how to tokenize text, just the other way around.
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20:32:56 <oerjan> 17:31:37: <zzo38> What key do you think The Internationale should be played in?
20:32:59 <oerjan> 17:35:33: <itidus21> c sharp
20:33:03 <oerjan> 17:36:06: <jlaire> f shaaaaaaaaaarp
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20:37:37 <oerjan> also, argh new housemates
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20:39:00 <oerjan> <AriesAsrael> anyone looking for a tarot reading?
20:39:03 <zzo38> I am writing triangle channel music but I need the help with percussion channel please. If you know the music "Internationale" then maybe you can know how to make percussion as well? In this case it is the 2A03 noise channel, meaning you can select a pitch of a white noise.
20:39:06 <FreeFull> fizzie: Well, tokenizing isn't that hard to do
20:39:11 <HackEgo> AriesAsrael: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:39:19 <oerjan> i think you might want that last one
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20:40:24 <boily> meh... he/she/it left before I could show him/her/it my bot's divinatory functions...
20:40:50 <oerjan> your bot has divinatory functions?
20:41:14 <oerjan> fungot: you are pretty oracular right?
20:41:15 <fungot> oerjan: ( loop next ( ( line in-port port read-line) ( lines collecting line)))
20:41:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:41:36 <boily> oerjan: for now, it has ~dice and ~yi, notably.
20:41:39 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
20:41:48 <fungot> kmc: now i say lo miss eu.dipx dipx where got always bluff me say u sleeping by that team not.lol. on my way back from location by lidat.
20:41:59 <zzo38> They don't have card dealing?
20:42:27 <cuttlefish> Your divination: "Great Possessing" to "Great Possessing"
20:42:44 <kmc> it should use the unicode yi ching characters
20:43:13 <zzo38> Add card dealing from standard (French) deck, tarot deck, Fanucci deck, Italo-Spanish deck, etc.
20:43:15 <boily> kmc: good idea. expect to see them tomorrow or wednesday.
20:43:45 <boily> zzo38: very good idea, with mahjong hands and dominoes.
20:44:21 <zzo38> boily: Yes, also mahjong and domino.
20:45:20 <zzo38> For standard deck, indicate if single or double and if it has jokers or not. For mahjong, specify which variant (Japanese, Japanese with red fives, Chinese, American, etc).
20:47:39 <zzo38> We could program FurryScript to deal cards; currently although it can check for duplicates it is not really ideal for dealing cards but I could add a card dealing function to this program.
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20:50:47 <FreeFull> Invent a programming language which consists of entering base 63 numbers
20:50:58 <atriq> Well, today the amount of money I've spent on cosplay MULTIPLIED BY NINE
20:51:19 <FreeFull> The quote function allows you to enter literal numbers/quoted code
20:52:27 <olsner> atriq: same here actually, for any value of nine
20:53:09 <FreeFull> An example program would be Kqy6ZdSGWBpafaMRSozWqWn5
20:53:57 <FreeFull> Oh, and if you want to do functions, you can do it by redefining one of the symbols
20:54:13 <FreeFull> So you can have the system function K be replaced by custom function K
20:56:17 <oerjan> which is particularly ironic if it's SKI K
20:57:10 <kmc> like rain on your wedding day
20:57:14 <FreeFull> And there is no symbol which isn't redefinable
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21:02:43 <atriq> olsner, from 50p to 4.50
21:03:59 <kmc> i'm disappointed that i can't type $ as Compose | S
21:04:05 <olsner> atriq: wow, mr moneypants
21:04:24 <atriq> The 50p was a roll of sticky tape
21:04:41 <zzo38> kmc: Can you add it to a compose file?
21:04:42 <FreeFull> kmc: Well, add it to the definitions
21:04:46 <olsner> sticky tape? is there unsticky tape?
21:05:10 <FreeFull> I know there is tape that only sticks to itself, and nothing else
21:05:16 <zzo38> olsner: Do you mean "same here actually, for any value of nine" that you have not spend any money on cosplay?
21:06:02 <atriq> olsner, there is definitely non-sticky tape. For instance, magnetic tape
21:06:50 <kmc> FreeFull: bondage tape
21:07:10 <kmc> also apparently veterinary tape is the same thing but cheaper
21:07:33 <olsner> hmm, I forget those are also tape in english, non-sticky tape has a different word here
21:07:44 <oerjan> turing machines don't use sticky tape, it messes up things horribly
21:16:51 <olsner> but it should make the halting problem a bit more tractable
21:18:55 <oerjan> yeah but "they all halt" isn't that interesting
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23:39:50 <shachaf> kmc: Does mosh not support roaming the server? :-(
23:42:00 <kmc> it is a vaguely desired feature
23:42:14 <kmc> at least, i want to be able to use mosh behind my home NAT without the packets going outbound to the NAT router first
23:42:46 <kmc> we can't support simultaneous client and server roaming without a third party of some kind
23:42:59 <kmc> like if you suspend your laptop, and then your home IP changes before you resume on another connection
23:43:10 <kmc> but we've also talked about re-resolving the DNS name in such situations
23:43:18 <kmc> which could also solve the inside/outside-NAT case
23:43:48 <kmc> there is also an interesting DoS attack available if you support unrestricted roaming on both ends
23:44:13 <kmc> which is simply, if i capture a legit packet sent by the server, and re-send it from my IP, i can make you reply to my IP instead of the real server
23:45:00 <kmc> and i can do that to the server at the same time
23:45:10 <kmc> and now i have killed your connection permanently
23:54:47 <kmc> and then i found five dollars
23:55:03 <kmc> shachaf: are you doing the Stripe web CTF?
23:55:10 <kmc> it starts Wednesday at noon PDT, i think
23:56:10 <shachaf> Hmm, being awake an noon PDT is a challenging prospect.