00:01:30 <kmc> i can be awake at 15:00 EDT just fine :)
00:01:36 <kmc> actually i have been waking up well before noon localtime as well
00:01:38 <kmc> i blame jet lag
00:01:55 <shachaf> I actually like waking up early.
00:02:02 <shachaf> Or, rather, I like waking up early and not being tired.
00:02:08 <shachaf> I just really dislike going to sleep.
00:03:30 <kmc> sleep always seems more boring than the alternative
00:03:38 <kmc> well not always
00:03:44 <kmc> but usually
00:06:37 <zzo38> I Wanna Flip The Sky
00:12:15 <zzo38> Is this specification OK? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/ines.map_and_unif.map I think one thing I forgot is the precedence of the "romsize", "rom", and "crc" operators. What would you suggest?
00:37:21 * kmc still has not thought of a great algorithm for the word rectangle puzzle
00:40:24 <zzo38> What is a word rectangle puzzle?
00:41:51 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
00:42:33 <kmc> zzo38: find a rectangle of letters such that every row and every column is an English word
00:42:43 <kmc> find such a rectangle as big as you can
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12:47:14 <atriq> I don't really like the new Muse song.
12:47:21 <atriq> It's insufficiently OTT
12:51:19 <atriq> With this nick, the first two characters don't uniquely identify me on #haskell...
12:55:46 <atriq> Is that a britishism?
12:56:57 <atriq> Excessive, ridiculous
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12:57:25 <atriq> I've ended up with a couple of words that I think are Urdu in my vocabulary, but I've no idea what they literally mean or how to spell them
13:06:25 <atriq> Language spoken in Pakistan, I believ
13:09:00 <kmc> "over the top" is used in america too
13:09:03 <kmc> but i haven't heard the acronym
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13:21:59 <atriq> I got asked about it last time I used it in this channel
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13:23:35 <shachaf> kmc: Where do you sleep etc. when you go do travel-ish things?
13:26:17 <kmc> that depends
13:26:57 <kmc> when i was biking to vermont i camped in campgrounds
13:27:16 <kmc> when i was in europe most recently i stayed with friends and in hostels
13:27:24 <kmc> it depends on the situation
13:27:38 <kmc> i haven't done the "camping in the middle of nowhere with nobody's permission" thing but that's an option too
13:27:58 <kmc> lexande slept on a park bench when he was hitchhiking to st john's canada
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14:03:19 <atriq> Okay, I'm starting to warm to this song
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14:11:27 <kmc> i agree that Muse should be over the top
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14:13:20 <kmc> 'The album’s second single, “Knights of Cydonia,” sounds like the theme song to a wild-west Highlander sequel set in Freddie Mercury’s butt.'
14:14:30 <kmc> i have a theory about Black Holes and Revelations
14:14:38 <kmc> which is that they were hoping some crazy person would listen to it on loop for 40 hours
14:14:42 <kmc> and then shoot the president
14:14:56 <atriq> I'd do it, but I don't have a gun
14:15:00 <kmc> it's that sort od album
14:15:11 <kmc> that's because you live in the UK
14:15:27 <atriq> Hey, my dad and at least one of my friends own guns
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14:15:55 <kmc> here in the USA you get a free gun with your mcdonald's happy meal
14:16:01 <kmc> (except in san francisco, where they have banned happy meals)
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14:31:21 <Gregor> Reöpen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis “eo” is pigeon.
14:32:49 <Gregor> Aha, and “righteous”, although there the whole “eou” is a single vowel sound.
14:35:53 <Gregor> And, for that matter, George!
14:36:17 <Gregor> But is that some olde convention by which “ge” is pronounced as 'j'?
14:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Repen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis eo is pigeon.
14:37:53 <Gregor> Erm, I meant withOUT a diaeresis >_>
14:38:21 <Gregor> If I ever had a pet pigeon, I would name it Pigeön.
14:38:46 <Gregor> Oh damn it, maybe pigeon is just following the same olde convention as George >_>
14:40:54 <Gregor> Conclusion: reöpen yes.
14:41:27 <kmc> i want a pet pigeon
14:42:33 <Gregor> Hrrrrrrrrrng! I missed a real opportunity with my cat!
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15:14:59 <lexande> kmc: i didn't think OTT was a briticism, just a sort of jargonfile-esque-abbreviate-everything-ism
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15:19:11 <kmc> i don't think it's a briticism either
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15:32:22 <lexande> shachaf: i feel like the couchsurfing.org option for where to sleep should also be mentioned for completeness
15:33:26 <lexande> i have used that once or twice but it is usually poorly suited to my needs
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15:56:54 <lexande> shachaf: any particular reason for asking?
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17:22:49 <atriq> Bulls on Parade is a really boring song on Guitar Hero...
17:31:24 <atriq> But on the plus side, I get it at 100% on medium
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17:49:17 <AnotherTest> has anyone used boost::spirit here before?
17:50:31 <kmc> i have used it
17:50:56 <kmc> it's fairly terrifying
17:51:03 <kmc> enjoy your 10 page long compiler error messages
17:51:34 <kmc> also enjoy your boost brand "I Can't Believe It's Not Functional Programming" fake lambdas which you will have to use *everywhere*
17:51:42 <FreeFull> kmc: 10 page long due to template abuse?
17:51:55 <kmc> i wonder if it is more usable with actual C++11 lambdas
17:52:03 <kmc> FreeFull: i mean, whether it's abuse is subjective
17:52:12 <kmc> but yes, spirit is heavily template meta-programmed and that's the cause of crazy errors
17:52:16 <kmc> yes that is a lambda
17:52:24 <AnotherTest> kmc: you can boost::bind too for semantic actions
17:53:23 <kmc> it's pretty gross how libraries like spirit attempt to do Haskell-style operator-based EDSLs but within the confines of the existing operators and precedences
17:53:30 <kmc> FreeFull: that's one too
17:53:35 <kmc> here is a number: 7
17:53:38 <kmc> here's another one: 19
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17:54:15 <kmc> can we play numberwang
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17:55:14 <boily> that was a number.
17:55:52 <AnotherTest> kmc: what I do find shocking is that the output size of my program is 1.48 MB)
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17:58:03 <kmc> cuttlefish: that's numberwang!
17:58:24 <kmc> AnotherTest: what if you strip it?
18:01:08 <boily> kmc: what's numberwang?
18:02:33 * boily is confused, but realizes that it's a perfectly normal state of mind when perusing this channel...
18:02:59 <kmc> boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc
18:03:02 <kmc> this should clear it up
18:05:29 <kmc> FreeFull: why are you sending us these bits of code
18:05:58 <FreeFull> I don't think (*) . (*) is valid anyway
18:06:11 <kmc> sure it is
18:06:15 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
18:06:22 <atriq> :t (*) . (*) $ 1 id 8
18:06:23 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a
18:06:28 <kmc> dambit lambdabot
18:06:34 <atriq> :t ((*) . (*)) 1 id 8
18:06:35 <kmc> the actual type is (Num (a -> a), Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
18:06:37 <atriq> > ((*) . (*)) 1 id 8
18:06:45 <atriq> > ((*) . (*)) 1 (+ 1) 8
18:06:51 <atriq> > ((*) . (*)) 2 (+ 1) 8
18:07:00 <kmc> but lambdabot has a nonstandard instance (Num a) => instance Num (b -> a)
18:07:07 <kmc> fucking lambdabot
18:07:11 <boily> kmc: two... hundred
18:07:33 <kmc> hey let's start a collaborative learning system for Haskell beginners and have a bot which gives WRONG ANSWERS FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE EXPERTS
18:07:40 <FreeFull> Oh, you have to put it in extra ()
18:11:16 <kmc> «f . g x y» means something different from «(f . g) x y»
18:11:23 <kmc> either one could be valid in the right context
18:11:34 <kmc> the former is equivalent to «f . (g x y)»
18:12:09 <kmc> function application syntax binds tighter than any infix operator
18:13:52 <atriq> Both are different from (f . g) (x y)
18:14:17 <FreeFull> I'm wondering how you'd make the equivalent of (\x y -> (*) ((*) x y))
18:14:44 <atriq> @unpl \x y -> (*) ((*) x y)
18:14:49 <atriq> @pl \x y -> (*) ((*) x y)
18:16:20 <atriq> > (((*) .) . (*)) 2 3 4
18:16:23 <FreeFull> Of course this is just messing around with syntax just because
18:18:14 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a)
18:19:01 <FreeFull> (((*) .) . (*)) looks mighty weird
18:19:09 <kmc> don't use that in actual code ;P
18:20:15 <kmc> lol nice zinger soundnfury
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18:34:06 <kmc> it's funny how you have to inject your opinion that haskell sucks into any discussion relating to haskell
18:34:18 <kmc> it's the same thing most people do with PHP and C++
18:35:07 <kmc> copumpkin is posting in this high quality thread
18:36:04 <soundnfury> kmc: what can I say? I'm an asshole about programming-language holywars
18:36:47 <copumpkin> you and 99% of the rest of the programming world
18:37:01 <copumpkin> but they're all wrong, cause I know it best
18:37:11 <kmc> emacs vs vi is an absurd cliche of a holy war
18:37:17 <kmc> nobody actually cares that much
18:37:19 <kmc> nobody i've met anyway
18:37:30 <kmc> it turns out that if you're a professional programmer you meet people who are real people and not stereotypes
18:37:50 <kmc> dinnersocked
18:37:54 <nortti> I use ed and vi and duslike emacs but you can't get me to fight for my editor
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18:38:15 <kmc> soundnfury: by "an asshole about programming-language holywars" you mean that you like to start them for fun?
18:38:24 <boily> are realness and stereotypedness mutually exclusive?
18:38:43 <nortti> soundnfury: you really use ed?
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18:39:05 <kmc> LOL WELL I EDIT FILES BY RUBBING MY DICK AGAINST THE HARD DRIVE
18:39:07 <kmc> ARGUMENT: WON
18:39:46 <kmc> yes that's what i was making fun of Lumpio-
18:40:09 <fizzie> What does "represent the foreign information media" mean?
18:40:30 <kmc> see people, this is why i can't just stop reading xkcd even though it sucks
18:40:36 <Lumpio-> kmc: It wouldn't have been obvious enough without the link.
18:40:41 <kmc> because people will always and forever use it as the reference point for any "nerdy" topic
18:41:01 <kmc> ok but now i'm just trolling
18:41:53 <nortti> kmc: why does xkcd suck?
18:42:05 <itidus21> maybe thats what xkcd really is... a reference for certain points that noone else makes
18:42:15 <kmc> no it's a reference for points that *everyone* makes
18:42:51 <itidus21> if everyone keeps making a point then a lot of people must be aggressively ignoring it
18:42:52 <kmc> in the earliest iteration, xkcd playfully poked fun at the standard nerd conversational tropes
18:43:10 <kmc> but it quickly devolved into transcribing these conversations for a wider audience
18:43:29 <soundnfury> nortti: well, not for routine editing, no (gedit and nano actually)
18:43:54 <soundnfury> but when I discovered yesterday that lappy didn't have ed installed, I immediately apt-got it
18:44:03 <kmc> so what do you use ed for soundnfury
18:44:15 <kmc> other than bragging about how big your e-peen is
18:44:47 <kmc> this is #esoteric after all
18:44:50 <kmc> you could argue it's an esoeditor
18:45:00 <nortti> soundnfury: I usually just compile this one http://pjotr.dy.fi/files/ed.c
18:45:10 <nortti> kmc: teco is esoeditor
18:45:19 <soundnfury> nortti: let me guess. It prints "?" on every input?
18:45:19 <nortti> soundnfury: or the unix v7 one
18:45:30 <nortti> soundnfury: no. it really works
18:45:42 <Lumpio-> I kind of feel bad calling software or languages esoteric even though they weren't purposefully made to be so
18:45:43 <soundnfury> kmc: you could, but the original Unix source code was all written with ed iirc
18:46:09 <nortti> soundnfury: the ? printing variant: main(a){for(;;){read(0,&a,1);if(a=='\n')write(1,"?\n",2);}}
18:47:35 <nortti> soundnfury: but the link I posted is some random ed I have ported to diffent operating systems. my friend is now hosting it on his haiku web server
18:48:23 <nortti> he wanted some more obscure os
18:48:32 <itidus21> i think the programming problem is that on the one hand everyone runs more smoothly with standards, but on the other hand standards are all biased in some way
18:48:43 <soundnfury> yeah well, he should have used risc os
18:49:02 <nortti> soundnfury: he doesn't have ARM computers
18:49:20 <nortti> I'd love to get acorn riscpc
18:49:44 <nortti> newer ones are in my comfortable processing power limits
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18:53:14 <fizzie> "are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities" these forms are always so lovely.
18:54:03 <quintopia> lol. i don't understand why they even bother with questions like that.
18:54:53 <itidus21> for whoever is reading this like in a log, and didn't wisely ignore my post.. please ignore it now..
18:55:47 <quintopia> "excuse me, the local police station here is having a survey. could you just tell me whether you are a pedophile rapist murderer? just check yes or no here..."
18:57:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like that US immigration form that asks if you were a Nazi.
18:57:16 <itidus21> i figure it's so that afterwards when you do engage in criminal/immoral activities noone can say they didn't ask
18:57:59 <quintopia> "you didn't do a background check on this idiot?" "why should we? he said he wasn't a criminal!"
18:58:20 <atriq> itidus21, do you have a particularly strong aussie accent?
18:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "haha, now we have him for being a Nazi AND lying on an immigration form!"
18:58:45 <itidus21> no.... my accent has a certain unplacability about it
18:59:04 <atriq> Thinking of cosplaying Steve from IWC, need to get the accent
18:59:15 <itidus21> ok i have the video for you :D
19:05:03 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It was that form. Well, the ESTA thing.
19:05:31 <fizzie> And it did ask if I've been involved in Nazi stuff between 1933 to 1945.
19:05:40 <fizzie> "Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in
19:05:40 <fizzie> terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved,
19:05:44 <fizzie> in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?
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19:12:40 <Gregor> “In 1945 I was busy waiting for my parents to be born.”
19:13:50 <itidus21> this is technically just an actor but...
19:13:52 <itidus21> http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0811/trent-from-punchy-demotivational-poster-1226565882.jpg
19:14:19 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RjC-vh06_c
19:14:35 <itidus21> its a fake australian accent, but it still kinda counts
19:14:57 <atriq> I have an uncle with an australian accent
19:15:06 <atriq> Strictly speaking I have 3
19:15:23 <itidus21> this is the side of australia they hide
19:18:03 <atriq> They all live in Victoria
19:20:43 <itidus21> i found out the guy is actually an actor, but its convincing cos australians can be like that
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19:38:54 <oerjan> <Gregor> Reöpen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis “eo” is pigeon. <-- um pigeon is two syllables, google agrees
19:39:28 <Gregor> oerjan: Ya make ONE tpyo, and you pay for it forever.
19:39:34 <Gregor> oerjan: I meant withOUT.
19:40:33 <oerjan> apparently yeomen is two syllables iiuc
19:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, do a New Zealand accent, see if anyone notices.
19:41:01 <Gregor> Aha, “yeoman” is another great example!
19:43:41 <olsner> is it words with or without a diaeresis "eo" we're looking for?
19:45:47 <oerjan> is meow one or two syllables
19:47:06 <atriq> The second of which is a dipthong
19:48:33 <fizzie> Also I guess jeopardy maybe? I'm no Englosser. (Isn't that what an English-speaking person is called?)
19:48:57 <Gregor> Yes, yes, there are plenty of examples both with and without X-D
19:48:58 <olsner> an englosser should be a person who makes things glossy
19:48:59 <atriq> (I think it's an anglophone, and also that you're joking)
19:49:10 <Gregor> But more with diaeresis, I think.
19:54:13 <fizzie> The diarrheasis is a diacritic that has the shape of a messy splatter.
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19:55:20 <fizzie> U+3163F COMBINING DIARRHEASIS BELOW
19:55:23 <oerjan> 18:39:05: <kmc> LOL WELL I EDIT FILES BY RUBBING MY DICK AGAINST THE HARD DRIVE
19:55:26 <fizzie> A character to avoid, perhaps.
19:55:26 <oerjan> 18:39:07: <kmc> ARGUMENT: WON
19:57:26 <oerjan> <kmc> because people will always and forever use it as the reference point for any "nerdy" topic <-- rubbish, there's also smbc
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20:04:23 <oerjan> atriq: also why aren't you just looking up the real steve irwin on youtube
20:04:35 <atriq> Because that's a completely different person
20:04:48 <atriq> And the earliest I'm doing this is April
20:05:07 <oerjan> i believe he _does_ speak strine though
20:05:50 <oerjan> "strine" means more than just australian, iiuc
20:05:50 <atriq> On account of, you know, being Australian
20:06:13 <oerjan> it means extremely heavy accent
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20:06:32 <oerjan> basically an accent in which you pronounce australian like "strine"
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20:07:12 <oerjan> mind you i don't actually know. i should get around to listening to those iwc podcasts some day.
20:09:35 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine contains "The naturalist and TV presenter Steve Irwin was once referred to as the person who "talked Strine like no other contemporary personality".[4]"
20:12:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe DMM does not quite count as a "personality".
20:14:18 <atriq> Seeing as I'm gonna be cosplaying as an Australian from an Australian webcomic in a western style at an anime convention
20:15:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Your SMBC mention made me go look the last 50-odd ones I hadn't read, and one of them made me chuckle. That's unforgivable.
20:16:25 <fizzie> (Namely, panel #5 (with 1-based indexing) of http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2687 did.)
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20:17:32 <oerjan> how can you laugh at such tragedy.
20:18:02 <oerjan> about time for me to catch up on it as well
20:18:35 <atriq> After I've been talking about Muse
20:18:41 <atriq> DMM posted on his blog
20:18:48 <atriq> That he now likes Muse
20:18:56 <oerjan> actually i'll postpone that again
20:19:26 <atriq> I reserve SMBC as my TVTropes escape mechanism
20:21:22 <soundnfury> fizzie: you could have just used an ordinal instead of a cardinal
20:21:35 <soundnfury> given that you were describing something ordinally rather than cardinally
20:22:25 <oerjan> also using 0-based indexing outside programming is an automatic turing test failure, anyway.
20:22:46 <fizzie> fungot: What kind of indexing do you use?
20:22:47 <fungot> fizzie: video games. my bro say can rec me not lol. can try eh huh?..i a bit late. decimal can? leaving hse nw
20:22:47 <oerjan> ok maybe some math too
20:23:42 <kmc> oerjan: what about building floors in britain
20:23:46 <kmc> or much of the rest of the world
20:23:56 <kmc> they even use -1 for first basement, -2 for second basement, etc
20:24:28 <oerjan> obviously the brits are robots, they invented industry after all
20:24:50 <soundnfury> thank you, I take this as a compliment
20:24:53 <fizzie> At the university in Belgium, the room numbers were "aa.bb", with the two-digit 'aa' denoting floor; they had 00 for ground floor, 01 for the one above it, etc.; and 99 for first basement, 98 for second.
20:25:10 <fizzie> I don't think I heard anyone speaking of "floor 99", though.
20:25:16 <oerjan> soundnfury is british? it's so hard to notice over the haskell bashing
20:26:59 <oerjan> fizzie: modulo 100 arithmetic?
20:27:26 <oerjan> what _is_ the base 10 equivalent of the phrase "two's complement" anyway
20:28:04 <FreeFull> Or did that not come up because there weren't that many floors? =P
20:28:29 <fizzie> FreeFull: Presumably it'd depend on how many basement levels and floors the building had.
20:28:45 <fizzie> Don't know what they'd have done for buildings with >100 floors in total.
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20:29:41 <oerjan> "The method of complements can also be applied in base-10 arithmetic, using ten's complements by analogy with two's complements."
20:30:35 <olsner> and the counterpart of 1's complement would be 9's complement?
20:32:46 <soundnfury> oerjan: well, C was based on BCPL, which was designed at Cambridge
20:33:33 <atriq> The main Haskell compiler was created at Glasgow
20:34:19 <soundnfury> but glasgey is one of my least favourite of the scottish stereotypes
20:34:47 <oerjan> no true scottish stereotype
20:35:18 <fizzie> The BCD article mentions signed BCD with ten's complement. I was wondering if anyone was doing that.
20:35:54 <oerjan> olsner: i imagine this terminology will get very confusing if you are using two different bases one apart
20:36:18 <soundnfury> fizzie: would DA instructions still work properly?
20:36:44 <soundnfury> Anyway, Real Men™ use balanced ternary.
20:36:49 <olsner> otoh, that would be a fairly weird thing to do in the first place, maybe it won't matter all that much
20:36:54 <soundnfury> (and Complex Men™ use Quater-imaginary base)
20:37:07 <kmc> i'm just a simple pole in a complex plane
20:37:26 <soundnfury> Zero, because all the poles are in eastern europe
20:37:35 <kmc> except that's plainly not the case
20:37:39 <oerjan> kmc: you're not a pole!
20:37:47 <atriq> They're over here stealing our jobs #dailymail
20:37:51 <soundnfury> kmc: ok, there are /some/ poles in western europe, but they are removable
20:37:54 <oerjan> nooga: you may swat kmc
20:37:59 <kmc> "press 2 for polish"
20:37:59 <atriq> Oh god did I just hashtag in IRC
20:38:03 <atriq> What have I become
20:38:32 <kmc> i will not join #dailymail
20:38:42 <fizzie> The official Daily Mail freenode channel.
20:38:42 <FreeFull> Binary coded hexadecimal is equivalent to binary itself
20:38:42 <soundnfury> HEY EVERYONE let's all /join #dailymail and pretend to be crazed xenophobes
20:39:37 <oerjan> why would you want us to pretend that, are you some kind of communist
20:39:56 <kmc> binary coded binary
20:40:00 <olsner> or binary coded unary, that might be worse
20:40:54 <soundnfury> store bits as FIGURESHIFT {0,1} LETTERSHIFT
20:41:41 <fizzie> UCS-4-coded binary only uses 32 bits per bit.
20:42:02 <olsner> you could store the bits in combining characters
20:42:42 <olsner> something like, an odd number of combining characters is a one, an even number is a zero perhaps?
20:43:22 <oerjan> and then you print it as a book in vietnamese
20:45:58 <shachaf> Using UCS-2.625 you get one bit per 3 codepoints.
20:46:29 <shachaf> That's where you store 3 codepoints per 64 bits.
20:49:16 <olsner> oh, you mean you store the bit in the extra bit left over after the 3 codepoints?
20:50:55 <olsner> UCS-4 lets you store 3 codepoints in 96 bits without even having any bits left over
20:51:55 <fizzie> And it's more secure. I mean, it has more bits, it must be.
20:52:05 <shachaf> UCS-4 has lots of bits left over.
20:52:27 <olsner> well, yeah, but they must all be zero
20:52:27 <fizzie> Those aren't left over.
20:52:57 <shachaf> UCS-2.625 ought to be called UCS-2.666... anyway.
20:53:02 <shachaf> The bit isn't really left over.
20:54:15 <fizzie> UCS-2.510932855... and so on.
20:54:23 <fizzie> When UCS-2.625 feels too wasteful.
20:54:59 <fizzie> You only need 20.08746... bits, after all. 21 is almost a whole bit too much.
20:55:17 <shachaf> fizzie: Huh? Unicode is specified to use 21 bits.
20:55:31 <fizzie> shachaf: No, it's specified to contain code points from 0 to 0x10FFFF.
20:55:54 <olsner> I wonder how they came up with 17 as a logical number of planes
20:55:55 <oerjan> > logBase 2 (0x10FFFF+1)
20:56:11 <oerjan> > logBase 256 (0x10FFFF+1)
20:56:12 <shachaf> fizzie: You also don't need to store surrogate-pair codepoints.
20:56:22 <olsner> it had to be a prime number? they wanted to make sure no-one tried to make do with 20 bits?
20:56:47 <olsner> you can always include the surrogate pairs in your UCS-4 or UTF-8 encoding
20:57:10 <olsner> people already actually do that, so it would hardly even be weird
20:57:17 <shachaf> olsner: But they're invalid.
20:58:07 <oerjan> > logBase 256 (0x10FFFF+1) :: CReal
20:58:09 <lambdabot> 2.5109328551562924260317582513513005442514
20:59:28 <olsner> you could do UCS-2.5 with an escape code that enter an astral mode where everything is offset with one plane
21:01:37 <fizzie> > let m = (1+) . fromIntegral . fromEnum in logBase (m (maxBound :: Word8)) (m (maxBound :: Char)) -- now without magic constants
21:03:19 <olsner> another escape code could take you to astral plains with otherworldly farmers
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21:04:37 <fizzie> olsner: The UCS (i.e. ISO/IEC 10646, Universal multiple-octet coded character set (UCS)) at one point in its history had 2^31 codepoints, with 128 "groups" of 256 "planes" of 256 "rows" of 256 "cells".
21:05:42 <fizzie> They had at least a draft out with that kind of structure.
21:06:29 <fizzie> Then Unicode bumped themselves up from 16 bits to the 17-plane thing in version 2.0, and ISO 10646 limited themselves to the same amount.
21:11:30 <fizzie> olsner: As for why exactly 17 planes, it at least exactly "fills" the UTF-16 surrogate pair mechanism -- you get the BMP as-is, and the other 16 planes make for exactly 20 bits, and there's 10 bits space in each surrogate half -- though I don't know the history.
21:12:11 <soundnfury> olsner: would this astral plane contain three encodings of '_'?
21:13:02 <olsner> well, there is the plane of planes, where every code point is an encoding of '_'
21:13:53 <shachaf> The plane of planes has a lot of characters like ✈
21:14:12 <olsner> no, that's the *other* plane of planes
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21:14:29 <shachaf> Or is it the plane of *other* planes?
21:14:32 <soundnfury> shachaf: no, the devil is people who assume "UTF-16 is just UCS-2, right?"
21:14:52 <shachaf> soundnfury: That's a double devil.
21:15:24 <shachaf> Do You ESWant IDentified Things?
21:15:49 <shachaf> soundnfury: There is only silence and some second-hand clothes.
21:23:57 <fizzie> Unicode 2.0 indeed seems to (a) still talk about how "Unicode character codes have a uniform width of 16 bits" and (b) introduce the "surrogate extension mechanism" to access the non-BMP characters. So it does sound like that's why the 17 planes; I think they got UTF-16 out of the then-existing ISO/IEC 10646-1:1993 that (I believe) had 2^31 codepoints. Would be interesting to see a draft of ...
21:24:03 <fizzie> ... that, to see how they justify the encoding that can't go all the way up.
21:24:40 <fizzie> There's an "overview" document from that time describing the Transformation Formats, saying "UTF-16: Unlike UTF-8 and UTF-7, this transformation reduces UCS-4-coded text to a UCS-2-based encoding and the result can only be used by so called 8-bit safe programs and processes, where all octet values are allowed. All UCS-4 codes in the BMP are reduced to the corresponding code in UCS-2. In ...
21:24:47 <fizzie> ... addition, UCS-4 codes in the 10 following planes of group 0 are transformed to two UCS-2 codes. 4096 codes in the BMP are reserved for this. This makes the characters that in the future may be allocated to 1048576 code positions of UCS-4 outside the BMP available in the 16-bit UCS-2 coded character set. The other code positions in UCS-4 are still unusable in the UTF-16 transformation ...
21:24:53 <fizzie> ... format. One motivation for defining UTF-16 has been that it will make it possible for software implementing Unicode to cope with the expansion of UCS outside the BMP for the foreseeable future."
21:25:39 <olsner> being "8-bit safe" doesn't sound very useful when exposed to either of UCS-2 or UTF-16
21:26:49 <fizzie> It also withdraws the UTF-1 from the draft; I wonder if that thing was ever really used anywhere.
21:33:53 <Sgeo> Got a spam asking if I sent some woman to collect money on my behalf
21:34:03 <Sgeo> I have to wonder what would happen if I said "yes"
21:44:20 <atriq> "So that's who the money lady was talking about"
21:44:33 <atriq> "I'm glad I gave her all my money now"
21:45:12 <atriq> And on that bombshell, goodnight!
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21:55:58 <oerjan> somewhere in hexham atriq is sleeping on top of a bomb
21:56:32 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
21:56:48 <lambdabot> where provides: where url what where+
21:57:08 <oerjan> shachaf: there might be a slight hint in the topic
21:57:18 <lexande> i wonder what hexham is like
21:57:29 <shachaf> oerjan: atriq is Taneb, but is "is" symmetric?
21:57:31 <lexande> i have been to wylam, is it a bit like that?
21:57:39 <shachaf> If "is" is symmetric then symmetric is "is".
21:57:50 <oerjan> ?where+ Hexham is in Northumblingaroundland
21:58:06 <oerjan> ?where+ Hexham Hexham is in Northumblingaroundland
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21:58:38 <oerjan> shachaf: see: equivalence relations
21:58:53 <shachaf> oerjan: "is" is an equivalence relation?
21:59:36 <lexande> "is" is not an equivalence relation
21:59:58 <shachaf> "is" can mean a lot of things. Like ⊆
22:02:56 <oerjan> `run echo "You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!" >wisdom/gazpacho
22:03:13 <oerjan> `run cp wisdom/gazpacho wisdom/gaspacho
22:03:26 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
22:05:16 <lexande> does "is" define a lattice?
22:05:40 <shachaf> lexande: What would be the top and bottom?
22:05:45 <shachaf> "something" and "everything"
22:05:53 <oerjan> `learn Lettuce is a vegetable with two operations, join and meet.
22:06:15 <coppro> oerjan: dressings, not operations
22:06:22 <olsner> speaking of lettuce, did you know that no-one knows exactly what kind of lettuce they had on the titanic?
22:06:28 <oerjan> `learn Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
22:06:53 * oerjan braces for the punchline
22:06:53 <olsner> and iirc, iceberg lettuce wasn't invented at that time
22:15:28 <shachaf> #haskell: Worst channel or worstest channel?
22:23:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:28:05 <kmc> what did it do this time
22:28:10 <kmc> shachaf: ^
22:28:44 <kmc> fizzie: UTF-1??
22:30:05 <kmc> <olsner> you could do UCS-2.5 with an escape code
22:30:15 <kmc> you have reinvented ISO 2022
22:30:17 <kmc> go directly to jail
22:30:19 <kmc> do not pass go
22:30:21 <kmc> do not collect $200
22:30:30 <kmc> "do not collect CHF 60 for a copy of ISO 2022"
22:38:29 <olsner> why are you even in there if you don't like it?
22:39:03 <shachaf> This is like one of those experiments where the randomized rewards get further and further apart from each other, though. :-)
22:39:24 <olsner> kmc: hmm, if that just makes a new ISO 2022, that's boring... I don't know how ISO 2022 works, but is there some way of making it more horribler than ISO 2022?
22:49:14 <kmc> i assume so
22:49:34 <kmc> ISO 102022
22:49:48 <kmc> also now i want currywurst :(
22:50:15 <olsner> 17 planes filled with 65536 escape codes each
22:50:51 <oerjan> monads and lenses and kinds, oh my
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22:51:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:52:56 <olsner> hurr, this movie has gun kata
22:53:09 -!- augur has joined.
22:53:14 <kmc> oh man i forgot about gun kata
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23:03:53 <kmc> emacs in popular culture
23:06:27 <kmc> huh http://geofft.mit.edu/blog/sipb/132 cool
23:11:13 <shachaf> kmc: ezyang is moving to CA!
23:12:08 <kmc> soundnfury: you still need somewhere to put the executable and run it
23:12:17 <kmc> shachaf: ok
23:12:23 <kmc> right, grad school at stanford
23:12:24 <kmc> i knew that
23:12:55 <kmc> soundnfury: let me know
23:13:35 <olsner> there are C interpreters, I guess
23:14:05 <olsner> or you could use that gccrun, which is a very tiny shell script
23:14:29 <shachaf> It turns out you can reach Knuth via email overnight if you know the right person to contact.
23:14:51 <olsner> yeah, gcc $0 is a bit more fun
23:15:02 <kmc> soundnfury you're really getting on my nerves
23:15:04 <kmc> maybe that's the goal
23:15:18 <oerjan> shachaf: not for long _now_...
23:15:23 <soundnfury> though there is a part of my personality that seems to want to
23:15:57 <coppro> so i read homestuck for the deep philosophical questions
23:16:04 <coppro> like 'is the jig every anywhere but up?'
23:17:22 <kmc> soundnfury: people in general, or me in particular?
23:17:32 * Sgeo is currently vacillating between Common Lisp and Clojure
23:17:41 <kmc> Sgeo: for what purpose?
23:17:44 <soundnfury> kmc: people who like haskell in general
23:17:48 -!- monqy has joined.
23:17:53 <kmc> for talking about on IRC?
23:17:55 <Sgeo> kmc, a language to use for whatever purpose
23:18:13 <kmc> soundnfury: did i even say i like haskell?
23:18:15 <Sgeo> Maybe finally trying web dev, maybe making IRC bots, maybe implementing an esolang.
23:18:36 <kmc> or did you infer that from the fact that i'm annoyed by your extremely ham-fisted attempts at bashing haskell
23:19:03 <soundnfury> kmc: well, maybe also people who don't like people who don't like haskell
23:20:07 <kmc> it's not that you "don't like haskell" it's that the intellectual depth of your criticism is "LOL HASKELL SUX AM I RITE"
23:20:20 <Sgeo> kmc, also I like the idea of modifying a program while its running for developement purposes
23:20:30 <kmc> i've got plenty of gripes with haskell myself
23:20:59 <soundnfury> kmc: that's because going any deeper than that into haskell-speak saps my will to live
23:21:29 <soundnfury> and haskellers won't talk to you except in their categorical language
23:21:45 <kmc> the fact that you think haskell is about category theory indicates that you lack even a basic understanding of the language
23:21:56 <soundnfury> it's not that haskell is about category theory
23:22:28 <soundnfury> it's that haskell coders are about category theory
23:22:36 <kmc> only a minority of them
23:22:37 <kmc> but anyway
23:22:47 <kmc> there are plenty of pragmatic real-world-language grounds on which to criticize haskell
23:22:51 <kmc> which have nothing to do with category theory
23:23:05 <Sgeo> Being a fan of one concept inspired by category theory does not imply thinking about category theory
23:23:06 <soundnfury> and generally try to take far too mathematical an approach to programming
23:23:32 <Sgeo> kmc, does having to deal with monad transformers count as one of those reasons?
23:23:39 <kmc> potentially
23:24:01 <soundnfury> I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a maths graduate myself, I *love* maths. But formal methods in programming really turn me off
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23:24:50 <Sgeo> Haskell takes heavy inspiration from math, but that doesn't mean it's ... not sure what I'm trying to say
23:25:20 <kmc> haskell is not particularly about "formal methods" but the stuff that's *actually* called "formal methods" is pretty damn important
23:25:33 <kmc> if i'm riding in an airplane, i want to know that the software running the plane has been mathematically proven correct
23:25:44 <kmc> in addition to lots of real-world testing
23:25:49 <kmc> one is not a substitute for the other
23:26:07 <kmc> obviously if you're making a website to serve cat photos you don't need this degree of rigor
23:26:16 <kmc> nothing to do with haskell
23:26:23 <kmc> haskell actually sucks as a language for proving shit about your code
23:26:26 <kmc> in theory it would be great
23:26:34 <kmc> but in practice the formal methods community cares about C because it's industrially relevant
23:26:50 <kmc> you can prove some stuff within the haskell type system, but there's real diminishing returns in terms of the complexity of doing so
23:27:14 <soundnfury> kmc: I'm not sure what I'm trying to say either, except that the haskell community and its jargon "smells bad" to me
23:27:43 <kmc> when something "smells bad" you should consider whether it's actually your own prejudices
23:27:53 <kmc> there is sadly a lot of anti-intellectualism among programmers
23:28:03 <kmc> but, i agree that there are many problems with the haskell community as well
23:28:06 <soundnfury> and I just wish this channel had more discussion of /other/ esolangs >snerk<
23:28:12 <kmc> i mean, i quit #haskell because it was constantly making me angry
23:28:17 <soundnfury> kmc: what kind of anti-intellectualism do you mean?
23:28:19 <kmc> after several years of hanging out there all the time
23:28:31 <kmc> soundnfury: the kind you are displaying
23:28:45 <soundnfury> taxonomy: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4001
23:28:47 <kmc> making fun of the fancy math words and the book learnin' without any substantive complaint
23:29:01 <kmc> assuming anyone with a PhD cannot code
23:29:19 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to TomWilliams.
23:29:35 <kmc> also programmers can be anti-intellectual in that they think all intellectual pursuits *other* than programming are inferior
23:30:06 -!- TomWilliams has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:30:06 <kmc> they assume that if only a programmer bothered to look at one of these other fields, they would instantly revolutionize
23:30:13 <kmc> and i'm not going to read a long blog post by esr thanks
23:30:40 <soundnfury> I don't have a problem with "book learnin'" per se, just misapplication thereof
23:31:08 <kmc> also every language community has its own jargon
23:31:22 <kmc> haskell jargon is more unfamiliar because haskell is a unusual language
23:31:58 <soundnfury> I don't think that type of fancy math belongs in programming, I think programming is an analytic/synthetic discipline, whereas the fancy-math approach seems to be purely synthetic
23:32:25 <kmc> if something is both analytic and synthetic, then wouldn't you like some analytic tools and some synthetic tools?
23:32:27 <soundnfury> basically, programming in haskell looks like the equivalent of doing your calculus with greek geometry á la Isaac Barrow
23:32:57 <soundnfury> kmc: sure but the language has to accommodate both
23:33:21 <kmc> haskell accommodates most styles...
23:33:35 <soundnfury> I don't see much room for analysis in the strongly-typed world of haskell
23:33:37 <kmc> it definitely accomodates the loosely-checked, side-effect-full style favored elsewhere
23:33:45 <soundnfury> I think I've worked out what I don't like about haskell
23:34:03 <soundnfury> it's that the type system is too complicated
23:34:12 <kmc> your attitude is one of someone who has read all the hype about what makes Haskell unusual, but hasn't actually used the language and so doesn't know about the various ways in which it compromises on those unusual qualities
23:34:21 <kmc> the type system isn't that complicated
23:34:24 <kmc> it doesn't even have subtyping!
23:34:29 <soundnfury> I prefer simple ontologies like "everything is a cons" or "everything is a bag of bytes"
23:35:27 <kmc> so how much do you actually know about haskell
23:35:31 <kmc> i mean, how much code have you written
23:35:49 <soundnfury> well, as I've mentioned before, I don't know much about haskell
23:36:11 <soundnfury> but then I know even less about COBOL and I'm willing to hold opinions about it too
23:36:12 <kmc> you might want to hold off complaining about how unrelentingly 'synthetic' it is, then
23:36:28 <kmc> maybe that's unwise
23:36:32 <soundnfury> because I'm willing to substitute the judgement of others whom I trust for my own
23:36:34 <kmc> maybe it causes you to embarrass yourself in public
23:39:53 <kmc> i think the fanboys are to blame largely
23:40:34 <kmc> start learning haskell => write a prime number sieve => blog about how pure and mathematical haskell is
23:42:31 <kmc> there is this impression that Haskell is a pure object of mathematical beauty and that it forces you to program in a totally different way
23:42:32 -!- monqy has left.
23:42:34 <kmc> it's not, and it doesn't
23:42:55 <kmc> but that is the experience of beginners and that is the furthest most people get
23:44:18 <soundnfury> if most people only get that far, maybe the learning curve is the wrong shape?
23:44:33 <kmc> yeah, it is
23:44:37 <soundnfury> like, brick-wall-shaped instead of curve-shaped ;)
23:44:46 <kmc> this is one of the biggest problems with the language and the reason why it will never be mainstream
23:44:54 <kmc> you don't need to convince me about that
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23:46:10 <kmc> basically i think haskell is a good tool for solving certain problems, but not good enough to justify learning it on those grounds
23:46:17 <HackEgo> 844) <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
23:46:25 <kmc> it's only a practical tool if you've already learned it for fun
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23:46:28 <HackEgo> *poof* <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
23:46:31 <elliott> i heard there was an argument about haskell
23:46:36 <elliott> oh, thank you for removing that quote
23:46:40 <elliott> i kept meaning to but then didn't
23:46:50 <kmc> and really learned, not just well enough to do prime number sieves and toy lisp implementations
23:46:52 <oerjan> elliott: after the current argument it suddenly didn't feel funny any more
23:46:53 <kmc> which takes a long time
23:47:34 <elliott> oerjan: well, the qdb can be used for preserving stupid things people say
23:47:41 <elliott> but ideally they should be stupid things that take a little bit of thought to come up with
23:47:44 <elliott> rather than just dumb things
23:48:51 <kmc> i haven't seen anyone else with this much of an axe to grind about haskell, besides Jon Harrop
23:48:58 <kmc> soundnfury: are you Jon Harrop
23:49:01 <oerjan> soundnfury: i realized it was more sour gripe than humor.
23:49:25 <soundnfury> oerjan: actually, it wasn't sour gripe. It wasn't humor either. It was *humour*.
23:49:50 <oerjan> has he ever been seen together with soundnfury?
23:49:51 <kmc> a person with an axe to grind about Haskell
23:50:06 <kmc> a troll who #haskell cannot stop talking about, proving his effectiveness
23:50:21 <elliott> <soundnfury> oerjan: actually, it wasn't sour gripe. It wasn't humor either. It was *humour*.
23:50:22 <kmc> but he does make substantive technical arguments and community criticisms besides LOL HASKELL SUX ITS WORSE THAN SHITE
23:50:25 <elliott> sorry can you be more obnoxious
23:50:34 <kmc> from time to time
23:50:35 <elliott> kmc: i wouldn't call harrop's arguments substantive...
23:51:09 <kmc> when he accused the haskell community of cherry-picking results to show how great haskell is, i was like
23:51:14 <kmc> "ouch... but i see where you're coming from"
23:51:49 <elliott> kmc: maybe i would take harrop quarter-seriously if he was not obviously and self-admittedly doing all this for the sole purpose of shilling for his shitty company
23:51:50 <soundnfury> elliott: Are you named after the Elliott Automation line of computers?
23:52:01 <soundnfury> in fact... are you an AI running on an Elliot 503?
23:52:09 <elliott> i think i am actually named after the amplifier brand or something
23:52:36 <elliott> kmc: you should see some of his deleted stack overflow answers, they are pretty great
23:53:04 <elliott> he acused the DPH people of academic fraud or something because he didn't consider them competent on parallel computing
23:53:42 <elliott> soundnfury: so what is your favourite language
23:56:21 <soundnfury> Lisp would run it close if the dialects didn't all suck
23:56:25 <kmc> and why is C your favorite language
23:56:31 <elliott> soundnfury: hahaha ok II: the return of hahaha ok
23:56:31 <soundnfury> though obviously they're for different things
23:57:27 <oerjan> nooga: you took your time!
23:58:00 <soundnfury> kmc: because it's easy to mentally model the execution of the code, and because it's local
23:58:01 <Sgeo> Is it wrong to like newLisp's source and save functions?
23:58:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes. worse than murder.
23:58:37 <soundnfury> (in the sense that everything controlling the semantics of a piece of code is usually in or near that piece)
23:58:42 <elliott> soundnfury: if you think it is easy to mentally model the execution of some C code you have no idea how modern hardware works
23:58:45 <kmc> it is not easy to mentally model the execution of C code on modern compilers and processors :/
23:58:53 <soundnfury> (obviously preprocessor abuse can break this)
23:58:55 <elliott> soundnfury: that is also false. function calls exist
23:59:14 <pikhq> It's god damned hard to mentally model how *assembly* maps to hardware functioning.
23:59:26 <soundnfury> kmc: ah, but reordering and shizzle is supposed not to affect things
23:59:27 -!- monqy has joined.
23:59:43 <soundnfury> I guess what I mean is "I can emulate the C abstract machine in my head"
23:59:45 <pikhq> C is at least two layers of abstraction up!
23:59:45 <elliott> you might say it's just like optimisations performed a haskell -- or indeed any other language's -- compiler