00:00:05 <kmc> soundnfury: sure, but in a real program it's very likely you'll do things that are technically undefined in C
00:00:09 <kmc> and then all bets are off
00:00:11 <soundnfury> elliott: maybe "semantics" was the wrong word
00:00:13 <elliott> anyone proficient in a language should be able to interpret it mentally... haskell is simpler for this because simple term reduction is a valid evaluation strategy
00:00:19 <pikhq> soundnfury: Sure, but that has very little to do with performance.
00:00:34 <soundnfury> kmc: I don't know what "real programs" you've been looking at
00:00:35 <pikhq> soundnfury: And I can in fact do the same with Haskell with little effort anyways.
00:00:46 <elliott> actually kmc is completely right
00:00:54 <elliott> if you think most programs don't invoke UB you have no idea how strict UB actually is
00:01:05 <elliott> even code that doesn't need to use any system interfaces beyond really simple file IO is probably going to do it
00:01:10 <Sgeo> CL has a lot of undefined behavior, right?
00:01:15 <Sgeo> Or implementation-defined
00:01:17 <elliott> do you check every possible case of signed overflow before doing it, for instance?
00:01:18 <soundnfury> I've read N1256 several times. I post in comp.lang.c.
00:01:26 <elliott> wow you post in comp.lang.c
00:01:31 <nooga> oerjan: element of surprise
00:01:43 <pikhq> soundnfury: Do you ever use a type ending in _t?
00:01:49 <elliott> oh i forgot about the _t thing
00:01:59 <soundnfury> pikhq: I use them sometimes. I don't typedef them
00:02:00 <elliott> that's just invalidity though isn't it
00:02:10 <pikhq> That one's pernicious courtesy of everyone thinking it's normal style.
00:02:28 <Sgeo> Is newLisp's bizarre reference stuff the only way that source and save are able to work, or could one make another language that reasonably saves its "images" as source code?
00:02:35 <pikhq> elliott: It's reserved namespace. Making identifiers in reserved namespace is UB, not merely invalid.
00:02:58 <pikhq> And people do it all the god damned time.
00:03:09 <elliott> anyway i will let kmc individually quote examples of undefined behaviour, outlying the argumentation algorithm is good enough for me
00:03:13 <Sgeo> newLisp would be good for a nomic
00:03:17 <Sgeo> Merely because of save
00:03:23 <pikhq> So many people like _FOO_H header guards.
00:03:35 <kmc> nah i can't be bothered
00:03:37 <olsner> the fun thing with C is that most cases of UB still work just like you think it "should", so you mostly never notice when it happens
00:03:41 <kmc> sorry bros and bro-ettes
00:03:50 <soundnfury> ok so, I actually use #pragma once, which makes me a Bad Person
00:04:02 <elliott> kmc: well this is the first time i have ever seen you not want to argue something
00:04:04 <pikhq> Yup, we don't actually use the Deathstation 5000.
00:04:15 <pikhq> soundnfury: That's implementation-defined behavior, not UB.
00:04:23 <elliott> Deewiant: you should finish your strict C compiler so we have an algorithmic implementation of this argument strategy
00:04:26 <pikhq> soundnfury: That still makes you a bad person mind. :)
00:04:42 <Sgeo> pikhq, we should
00:04:44 <oerjan> the dinosaurs used the deathstation 5000.
00:04:45 <kmc> elliott: it's hardly the first time
00:04:54 <kmc> anyway i'm not enough of a C expert to quote chapter and verse
00:05:08 <elliott> calling Deewiant and fizzie :p
00:05:10 <elliott> and maybe ais523? I forget
00:05:38 <soundnfury> does ais523 write NH4, or Acehack, or something?
00:05:50 * soundnfury forgets which variant is which (since I only play vanilla)
00:06:39 <elliott> oh i actually only read how this argument started now
00:06:51 <elliott> surprisingly, it is even stupider than I could have possibly imagined
00:06:55 <soundnfury> anyway, if he's been near NH code, he must know his C
00:07:03 <olsner> nice, they subtitled everyone's ugh, uhh, agh, wah and aggh in the fight scene
00:07:10 <soundnfury> elliott: I like to exceed people's expectations ;)
00:07:31 <elliott> generally the expectation of being a jerk to people is not one you want to assume unless you are trying to be a bad person
00:07:37 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:08:12 <soundnfury> elliott: I think it's just that I'm disappointed by how little actual esolang talk goes on in this channel
00:08:19 <soundnfury> (that is, unless you count Haskell as an esolang)
00:08:27 <kmc> yeah try starting some esolang talk then
00:08:32 <soundnfury> and I vent that disappointment through jerkish behaviour.
00:08:42 <elliott> plenty of esolang talk goes on when there is esolang stuff to talk about
00:08:46 <kmc> tbh there isn't that much haskell talk either
00:08:55 <elliott> it is not a popular enough field to sustain 24/7 conversation
00:09:02 <kmc> a lot of it is just... not programming
00:09:10 <soundnfury> kmc: Ok. Has anyone tried to use my Eniuq, or looked at ternary ECL?
00:09:11 <kmc> me bitching about xkcd
00:09:23 <kmc> itidus21 presenting nonsensical analogies and theories
00:09:31 <elliott> soundnfury: are you an xkcd fan
00:09:55 <kmc> soundnfury is a robot sent from the future to annoy me
00:10:10 <elliott> kmc: btw you forgot Sgeo {talking about,switching} languages
00:10:26 <kmc> Sgeo deciding which language is best for not doing anything
00:10:56 <Sgeo> kmc, hey, I wrote a bot in Tcl recently!
00:10:57 <soundnfury> Oh and lots of Finnish-related stuff. That's the other thing in this channel.
00:10:57 <elliott> kmc: best for idling in IRC channel of; best for teaching people
00:11:08 <elliott> lots and lots of Finnish-related stuff
00:11:26 <elliott> do you just mean oklopol or something...
00:11:54 <elliott> kmc: you also forgot zzo38 occasionally redeeming the channel
00:12:09 <soundnfury> people talking about vowel harmony and suchlike a couple of weeks back
00:12:24 <kmc> minun ilmatyynyalus on täynnä ankeriaita
00:12:50 <kmc> yes zzo38 jumping into the middle of a conversation to ask us what our favorite pokémon card is
00:13:04 <olsner> yhdeksänkymmentäseitsemän
00:14:35 <oerjan> luojan kiitos googlen käännös
00:15:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:16:53 <olsner> I think the last actually finnish person to speak was fizzie three hours ago
00:17:44 <elliott> kmc: anyway I am surprised you have the patience for this place
00:17:55 <kmc> i like it here
00:17:59 <kmc> everyone is crazy
00:18:03 <kmc> so i don't feel bad about being crazy
00:18:10 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:18:15 <olsner> kmc: what, you're not crazy
00:18:30 <elliott> kmc is about as crazy as Vorpal
00:18:59 <olsner> well, that's not very crazy at all, now is it?
00:20:08 <elliott> well Vorpal is not actually annoying any more
00:21:29 <oerjan> i'll just get crushed by the maturity demands
00:21:42 <elliott> how many maturity demands are even left
00:22:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did you turn 18 yet
00:22:06 <elliott> i always forget how old you are
00:22:19 <elliott> Wed Aug 22 01:23:59 BST 2012
00:22:56 <shachaf> Flime ties like an arrow. :-(
00:23:00 <oerjan> wait is it already more than a year since we celebrated elliott's 16th birthday
00:23:09 <shachaf> oerjan: No, it's just under a year.
00:23:15 <olsner> do we celebrate birthdays!?
00:23:22 <shachaf> elliott: Shall I eat cake in your honor?
00:23:57 <shachaf> 17:23 <preflex> elliott: 16
00:24:15 <elliott> 19:44:48: <AriesAsrael> hello
00:24:15 <elliott> 19:45:32: <AriesAsrael> anyone looking for a tarot reading?
00:24:22 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know you have an entry in my Birthday file?!
00:24:57 <shachaf> Actually it's ~45, it looks like.
00:25:24 <olsner> ah, that was fun, zzo38 very narrowly missed the opportunity to display his tarot reading bot before they disappeared
00:25:40 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, how does it feel to be OLD?
00:25:47 <shachaf> elliott: (You're old now.)
00:26:22 <olsner> sometimes I think zzo originally came here for the other esoterica but simply stayed anyway
00:26:23 <monqy> pigs aren't yellow, soundnfury
00:26:35 <monqy> a wrong thing maybe
00:26:38 <shachaf> monqy: Yellow pigs are pink?
00:26:46 <ais523> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Image:Monad-tutorials-chart.png
00:26:49 <soundnfury> http://www.vinc17.org/yp17/index.en.html
00:26:52 <shachaf> monqy: You obviously haven't read any books by Michael Spivak. :-(
00:27:20 <soundnfury> shachaf: yay, someone recognised it :-)
00:27:54 <shachaf> soundnfury: I read portions of a book by Michael Spivak!
00:28:06 <shachaf> elliott: Also "uses haskell" is a contradiction because haskell is uesless qed
00:28:16 <soundnfury> it's like that line of Stallman's: "Using vi isn't a sin, it's a penance"
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00:29:14 <elliott> now we're quoting stallman. great
00:29:43 <olsner> I don't trust people who eat their feet, especially not when they say bad things about vi
00:29:56 <monqy> i've heard stories about that
00:30:17 <olsner> yeah, emacs users are yucky
00:30:18 <shachaf> monqy: You know what's gross?
00:30:36 <monqy> it's ok they're not real
00:30:36 <shachaf> monqy: Where do you live again?
00:30:38 <monqy> they're like ghosts
00:31:19 <shachaf> I hadn't noticed. Am I crazy too?
00:31:20 <olsner> no matter how many times you press escape in emacs, you never end up in normal mode
00:31:24 <Gregor> The problem with the Eighty Megs acronym is that that's nothing now :)
00:31:25 <olsner> shachaf: no, you're sane
00:31:26 <elliott> soundnfury: wow these are good
00:31:33 <elliott> soundnfury: you must be getting these from the GNU Jokes Collection!
00:31:36 <elliott> olsner: i use vi and emacs, what does this make me
00:31:43 <Gregor> elliott: A bad person.
00:32:08 <elliott> Eighthundred Megs and Constantly Swapping
00:32:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:32:15 <elliott> "updated 4 the 'gnu' generation"
00:32:24 <olsner> elliott: must be some kind of multiple personality disorder
00:32:38 <oerjan> you're a regular 17-gon now, right?
00:32:40 <olsner> hmm, except they changed the name of that diagnosis
00:32:46 <elliott> oerjan: you should feel bad
00:33:28 <olsner> hmm, istr the first part of the topic was the least boring one, you should've replaced the other parts instead
00:33:33 <soundnfury> Gregor: although actually, eighty megs for a /text editor/ is still a bit much
00:34:01 <Gregor> soundnfury: Not if you use GDocs as your text editor 8-D
00:34:01 <kmc> i still don't believe elliott is 17
00:34:21 <shachaf> I first joined #haskell when I was 15. :-(
00:34:22 <soundnfury> Gregor: I'm guessing that edits rich text?
00:34:40 <shachaf> I was young and foolish back then. Now I'm no less foolish, but also old.
00:34:40 <kmc> <Gregor> The problem with the Eighty Megs acronym is that that's nothing now :)
00:34:43 <kmc> paging nortti
00:34:49 <Gregor> soundnfury: Sure, but you could use it to edit plain text if you were stupid enough.
00:35:30 <soundnfury> eight mobies? then it'd be constantly swapping!
00:35:39 <olsner> oh, but 8 myllion is 800 million, right?
00:35:44 <shachaf> elliottL more like 71 *dozen*!!
00:35:53 <olsner> but 800 MB is not that much either
00:36:36 <zzo38> olsner: I did not come here for the other esoterica, and I also do not have a tarot reading bot. However I have told them I was interested to have a tarot deck to play some card game.
00:36:38 <soundnfury> I think the term "moby" needs to be revived, given how prevalent swap/virtual memory is these days
00:36:52 <olsner> zzo38: I was ... extrapolating a bit
00:36:57 <oerjan> olsner: but then it would have outshone the glorious news!
00:36:59 <soundnfury> although maybe the need is being killed by 64-bit address spaces now
00:39:01 <olsner> 64-bit address space: lets you address more memory and use less swap!
00:40:47 <oerjan> technically those pants could have outshone anything, anyway
00:41:34 <olsner> ... and there I remembered what that part of the old topic was
00:43:24 <kmc> what's it mean soundnfury
00:51:25 <soundnfury> either the size of a machine's physical RAM,
00:51:48 <soundnfury> or the machine's address space (more precisely, the maximum amount of memory a single process may address)
00:52:40 <soundnfury> the exact definition gets more complicated in the face of machines with sideways addressing schemes and other weirdness
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00:53:41 <soundnfury> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/moby.html
00:55:33 <elliott> (also http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html grep /moby/, for the un-esr'd version.)
00:55:37 <elliott> (shame that page lacks anchors)
00:55:40 <Sgeo> Is the ability to save an image as source code sufficient to like a language's environment?
00:55:49 <Sgeo> Because I think that that's a good feature of newLisp
00:57:56 <zzo38> Have you seen/heard the finished version of my rearrangement of "The Internationale" music (including percussion)?
00:58:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you explain?
00:58:22 <elliott> zzo38: i would like to see/hear your rearrangement
00:58:26 <soundnfury> elliott: what do you have against esr?
00:58:35 <soundnfury> actually, let's not start another argument
00:59:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, there's a function in newLisp, source, that can take the environment, all variables and objects etc., and turn it into a string that can be interpreted later to re-create the environment
00:59:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: That can be useful sometimes.
01:00:08 <elliott> soundnfury: well, he's a moronic, racist far-right-winger, so there's that
01:00:29 <Sgeo> zzo38, indeed. It means I could develop at the REPL and save my work
01:00:47 <Sgeo> And it seems like the perfect environment for a codenomic: The changes are all visible as source.
01:00:53 <elliott> more relevantly he edited the jargon file without any apparent understanding of the underlying material or its culture, so...
01:01:06 <zzo38> elliott: These are all the files, the one "internationale.*" are the one I am mentioning. You need NES/Famicom emulator to play the music, and if you want to make some changes and recompile you need my improved version of PPMCK as well. http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
01:01:30 <soundnfury> I'm just going to walk away from this one
01:01:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:01:46 <zzo38> It is based on a arrangement I found on Wikipedia so this is now called a "rearrangement" instead of "arrangement", isn't it?
01:01:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:02:02 <Sgeo> 'and for essentially abandoning it when it reached a point that he considered "finished". '
01:02:06 <Sgeo> I tend to do that
01:02:10 <elliott> on the racism, cf. http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4270 among others -- uh, I can't find the link to his Bell Curve nonsense though
01:02:24 <elliott> for the far-right-winger part, no need to dig up links, he is vocal enough about it himself
01:02:46 <shachaf> elliott: Are you doing the Stripe flag thing?
01:03:45 <shachaf> elliott: The capture-the-flag thing.
01:03:50 <soundnfury> your definitions of both "racism" and "far-right-winger" are bizarre
01:04:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnite).
01:04:27 <elliott> are we actually at the point of "john derbyshire is not racist" now
01:04:33 <soundnfury> I point those of you who have not already made up your minds here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4278
01:04:34 <elliott> you're really fucking stupid, btw
01:04:49 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
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01:05:15 <zzo38> elliott: Do you like this music?
01:05:32 <zzo38> Do you like that music?
01:06:17 <soundnfury> for the rest of you also: I don't know whether john derbyshire is racist or not. However, ESR isn't. Not even slightly.
01:09:29 <zzo38> Are you sure you are not racist?
01:09:50 <Gregor> I am racist against humans, ponies are best.
01:10:33 <soundnfury> Well, I don't prejudice my judgement of individuals by generalisations at all, let alone false ones. So no.
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01:12:26 <soundnfury> I may sometimes make judgements about an individual-valued random variable based on generalisations, but to call /that/ $foo-ist is ludicrous
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01:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, wait, where did you get that accidental quote from.
01:56:42 <Sgeo> I didn't accidentally quote it, I deliberately quoted it and my "oops" was in reference to my tendency to do that
01:56:53 <Sgeo> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond
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02:06:06 <pikhq_> Kay, Scotland is the only country that can keep up with America in the "deep-fry everything" contest.
02:06:09 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should try some
02:07:28 <pikhq_> I mean, they have deep-fried pizza and we have deep-fried Twinkies.
02:07:41 <Sgeo> Where can I get deep-fried Twinkies?
02:07:49 <Sgeo> And are those more calories than normal Twinkies?
02:08:16 <Sgeo> I should get some
02:08:21 <pikhq_> It's a twinkie battered and deep fried.
02:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (There's a guy who ostensibly hates ESR to toe the party line but thinks he's this ~superhacker~ for writing libpng.)
02:10:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't read the full article
02:10:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't really notice it anyway, he just removed the parts that actually called it racist.
02:11:33 <pikhq_> ... ESR's responsible for libpng?
02:11:59 <pikhq_> It's an example of how not to do APIs.
02:12:39 <Sgeo> Why, what's libpng like?
02:12:48 <shachaf> "When libpng encounters an error, it expects to longjmp back to your routine. Therefore, you will need to call setjmp and pass your png_jmpbuf(png_ptr)."
02:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The guy was all like "well who are YOU to criticise ESR's programming did you know your browser WOULDN'T RUN if he hadn't written WHOLE PARTS of libpng and libgif"
02:12:59 <pikhq_> shachaf: That much isn't too bad.
02:13:12 * shachaf looks at the API documentation.
02:13:22 <pikhq_> shachaf: It's either that or returning error conditions.
02:13:41 <pikhq_> Not my favorite, but I'm not going to consider use of longjmp horrid.
02:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> With the obvious implication that parsing PNGs is a terribly complex task requiring vast knowledge and skill.
02:14:11 <pikhq_> Pfft, gzip's literally the only hard part.
02:14:16 <pikhq_> And libpng punts that.
02:14:50 <kmc> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code
02:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh also, "Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence."
02:15:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, ESR's one of those figures mostly notable for being loud.
02:16:04 <kmc> he ruined the word "hacker"
02:16:14 <kmc> not singlehandedly but he's one of the culprits
02:16:34 <kmc> real hackers like esr and xkcd
02:16:43 <kmc> does Stallman talk about hackers a lot? i don't know
02:17:04 <kmc> esr and paul graham ruined the word "hacker"
02:17:05 <pikhq_> kmc: Sometimes; used to more than he does now.
02:17:06 <kmc> and probably other people
02:17:43 <pikhq_> s/hacker/cracker/ is one of his hair-trigger things still I think.
02:19:37 <kmc> What y'all wanna do? / Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers / Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers?
02:19:59 <soundnfury> Okay, I don't know what kind of people edit RationalWiki, but I don't think their aggregate qualifies as "rational"
02:20:45 <soundnfury> particularly the cite alleging that he "denies the existence of dark matter" when what he's actually claiming is "'dark matter' is useless as an explanatory device"
02:20:46 <Sgeo> I have to admit that this sentence seems to be a non-sequeter "The worst part of all is that he blames Alan Turing for his judicial punishment and suicide, even though Raymond, like every other computer programmer, owes Turing his career."
02:21:05 <Sgeo> I do find blaming Turing problematic, but not sure what the later part of the sentence has to do with it
02:21:06 <pikhq_> soundnfury: It's basically 1 part rationalist and 9 parts silly.
02:21:39 <pikhq_> Sgeo: That... Seems utterly inconsistent with ESR.
02:21:59 <kmc> Turing was a genius but it seems quite a stretch to claim that nobody would be programming computers today without him
02:22:03 <pikhq_> Oh, yeah, and a few parts irrational of course.
02:22:09 <soundnfury> An LWian would immediately recognise that argument; "dark matter" is a semantic stopsign
02:22:10 <kmc> plenty of other people were working on similar problems at the same time
02:22:35 <kmc> in fact most of Turing's practical engineering work remained classified for decades
02:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, didn't Church resolve the halting problem before him anyway?
02:23:01 <kmc> not sure who was first
02:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that the substantial results on the LC came before Turing's work.
02:23:11 <Sgeo> kmc, even if computers could only exist because of him, that still doesn't mean he's perfect and unflawed. It seems unreasonable to say that his work makes him uncriticisable.
02:23:21 <pikhq_> soundnfury: How much overlap does RW have with LW anyways?
02:23:28 <pikhq_> ... Actually, I'm going with "very little".
02:23:34 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, that too
02:23:51 <kmc> Church beat him to the Entscheidungsproblem, anyway
02:23:59 <pikhq_> They both claim to be rational, and... LW seems to try?
02:24:01 <kmc> man, that was a golden age for esolang designers
02:24:10 <kmc> when designing an esolang could get you a Ph.D
02:24:17 <soundnfury> yeah, LW does more than just call itself rational
02:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> LW doesn't really care and when RW brings it up it's normally negative.
02:25:12 <Sgeo> RationalWiki and LessWrong
02:25:14 <pikhq_> shachaf: Rational Wiki, LessWrong
02:25:26 <pikhq_> I wouldn't normally abbreviate, but the context of the discussion made it unambiguous.
02:25:37 <kmc> read-write and laser walrus
02:26:07 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: s/China/Japan/
02:26:17 <kmc> isn't RationalWiki supposed to be a more or less direct response to Conservapedia
02:26:19 <pikhq_> Chinese languages, from what I understand, have different phonemes.
02:26:22 <kmc> and therefore completely doomed
02:26:36 <pikhq_> kmc: Seems to be a buttload less formal.
02:26:46 <pikhq_> More like TVTropes in tone.
02:26:55 <shachaf> I'm still not sure whether Conservapedia is satire.
02:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, yes, although CP was dying a slow but steady death when I stopped caring.
02:27:19 <shachaf> E.g. http://www.conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc%C2%B2
02:27:21 <Sgeo> At least undetected trolling likely is
02:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, the thing about CP is that most of the authors are trolls.
02:27:52 <pikhq_> shachaf: I'm pretty sure it's one or two serious people surrounded by trolls.
02:28:19 <shachaf> That page was created by the founder, though.
02:28:49 <Sgeo> Conservapedia's problem with the theory of relativity seems to be that it has a word in it that's also in "moral relativity"
02:28:54 <quintopia> "For more than a century, the claim that E=mc² has never yielded anything of value." wow that does feel awful Poe-y.
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02:29:14 <Phantom_Hoover> "This is a common way that scientific discoveries are made. But, as stated above, this is not how E=mc was discovered. But it could have been. But in the event, it wasn't." is blatant parody.
02:29:21 <pikhq> "Preaching "rationalism" as if it's a religion substitute." as a trait of a LWian?
02:29:41 <kmc> Sgeo: also relativity conflicts with quantum
02:29:44 <kmc> and quantum proves god exists
02:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Schlafly does have a really dumb hatred of relativity though.
02:30:28 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure how you could read the sequences and have religious devotion to anything. Yudkowsky in particular.
02:30:56 <pikhq> "You'll be unsurprised to know that many in the LessWrong community self-diagnose themselves as being on the Asperger's/autism spectrum. They do all this because they are bad at human interaction."
02:30:57 <shachaf> I mean, come on. They use the word "phyg".
02:31:27 <kmc> how many white male STEM majors with self-diagnosed aspergers does it take to screw in a lightbulb
02:31:32 <pikhq> I. Um. What the fuck and where did that unsubstantiated attempt at ad hominem come from?
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02:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, FWIW the guy largely behind that article is the same one who loves ESR.
02:32:53 <Sgeo> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02232.png
02:33:01 <soundnfury> RW says: "That's about 300,000-450,000 words for [the core sequences]... For comparison, the Lord Of The Rings trilogy is 473,000 words... 'Read the sequences' is equivalent to 'fuck you'"
02:33:48 <soundnfury> Um, I think that if you tried to post on a forum about Tolkien without having read LotR they'd say "Read LotR"
02:34:27 <soundnfury> if you want to join a discussion community, it's reasonable to expect that you're familiar with at least the basics of the thing being discussed
02:34:29 <pikhq> Also, Yudkowsky would have to be fucking amazing at cults-of-personality to be running one at LW.
02:34:42 <pikhq> A quick glance suggests he doesn't post there.
02:34:45 <kmc> so how many sequences do i have to read before my thetans are gone
02:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you can skip most of those words and still have a near-total knowledge of LotR.
02:35:23 <kmc> or you can watch the films
02:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> You just wouldn't know the exact tree that Legolas stood next to when he pulled arrows out of Grishnakh the orc.
02:35:48 <zzo38> I prefer to use LodePNG instead of libpng
02:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes zzo, but you also believe that LaTeX is a bloated mess.
02:37:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: To be fair, it is a mess.
02:37:18 <itidus21> it is just code to convert a png file into a bitmap data structure right?
02:37:30 <itidus21> bitmap being the vague term here
02:37:32 <pikhq> itidus21: And vice versa.
02:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, it'll do the inverse and some more odds and ends, but yes.
02:39:00 <pikhq> Yeah, lodepng seems to be much nicer.
02:39:24 <pikhq> Simple usage is simple, advanced usage is still simpler than libpng.
02:41:34 <pikhq> Huh, the gzip stuff in it seems to be written by him too.
02:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <soundnfury> particularly the cite alleging that he "denies the existence of dark matter" when what he's actually claiming is "'dark matter' is useless as an explanatory device"
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03:08:29 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: no, it's because it doesn't make any predictions
03:08:42 <soundnfury> it is, in a case of unfortunate terminology, a black box
03:11:27 <kmc> would you say it's the black sheep of theories
03:11:29 <kmc> a real black swan
03:11:30 <soundnfury> also it actually took me three minutes to realise that that was a racism joke
03:12:49 <soundnfury> no doubt this will now be used as evidence that I am somehow racist too. Of course, immediately seeing it would also have been evidence
03:13:29 <itidus21> depends on your definition of racist i think
03:13:32 <soundnfury> because the kind of people who bandy allegations of racism at people who are obviously /not/ Klansmen tend not to be too worried about niggling little things like Bayes' Theorem
03:13:38 <kmc> soundnfury: what horrible persecution you suffer
03:14:46 <pikhq> soundnfury: I find it strange you immediately went to "evidence that I am somehow racist".
03:15:18 <kmc> and claiming that the KKK is the only sort of racism is a ridiculous false dichotomy
03:15:38 <kmc> racism refers also to pervasive social attitudes held subconsciously by more or less well-meaning people
03:16:17 <itidus21> i think if your trouble spending good times with people of another race is due to segregation or self-diagnosed autism, or fearing reverse-racism then you're not a bad person either way
03:16:25 <kmc> and yeah, i agree with pikhq
03:16:31 <kmc> it is strange that you went there
03:16:55 <soundnfury> kmc: yes, but it's silly to accuse an individual of the "pervasive subconscious attitudes" type of racism
03:17:03 <kmc> not at all
03:17:04 <soundnfury> and I went there mainly for the humour
03:17:10 <kmc> yeah, hilarious joke soundnfury
03:17:14 <pikhq> The humor fell remarkably flat.
03:17:23 <kmc> why don't you go back to awkwardly working your hatred of haskell into every discussion
03:17:26 <kmc> that was much better
03:17:42 <itidus21> less of a swan and more of a black elephant on the table?
03:17:42 <pikhq> It came across as a "thou doth protest too much" type situation.
03:18:02 <soundnfury> kmc: Okay. "The only good thing about Haskell is that it isn't racist."
03:18:18 <kmc> what, with all that talk of "purity"
03:18:28 <pikhq> It's named for a white man; what could be more racist?
03:18:38 <soundnfury> pikhq: I guess because, anyone who'll accuse /ESR/ of racism clearly has loose epistemic standards as to what constitutes racism.
03:18:39 <shachaf> kmc: Not to mention the System.Process bug you found!
03:18:50 <soundnfury> pikhq: Is it named for a Dead White Male?
03:19:04 <pikhq> soundnfury: Well, Haskell Curry is dead, white, and male. So, yes.
03:19:17 <soundnfury> Okay. I didn't know whether curry was dead
03:19:25 <pikhq> He died in '82 at the age of 82.
03:19:49 <kmc> well played
03:20:49 <itidus21> i read "<Phantom_Hoover> is that because it's black" as "is that because he's black"
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03:24:45 <itidus21> oh my very old laundry smells real freaking bad
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03:28:24 <kmc> astounding
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05:35:43 <Sgeo> I was briefly convinced that newLisp had fixed image-based development
05:37:07 <Sgeo> But it occurs to me that saving out stuff doesn't necessarily imply that the output is in an ideal fashion to be modified
05:37:32 <Sgeo> Could be formatted differently, I don't know what happens to comments, etc. etc.
05:37:42 <Sgeo> So using the saved result as the source code may be less than ideal
05:38:00 <lexande> pikhq: Curry died at the age of 81
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06:31:30 <zzo38> I think the real time clock in my computer is slow
06:32:07 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix or replace that component?
06:38:17 <zzo38> Make two seven-letter words rhyming for "OFFICIAL'S LYMPHOID TISSUES IN THROAT"
06:49:43 <zzo38> Do you like "hold second one as you hold a pencil"?
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06:54:46 <itidus21> zzo38: my advice is just don't worry about the clock unless it's very slow
06:55:22 <zzo38> It does seem to be very slow. I set it a few months ago and today it was ten minutes behind until I fixed the time
06:58:12 <zzo38> Maybe it can but I would rather fix my computer.
07:09:16 <Sgeo> It strikes me that using clojure stuff from the Java side probably feels like using very poorly designed code, due to using one Java class for data in general
07:09:25 <Sgeo> (Or, that's what it would likely feel like)
07:14:01 <Sgeo> I think I might just try relaxing with Clojure
07:14:30 <fizzie> I suppose it's not just a battery issue like a slow RTC often is?
07:14:50 <Sgeo> It has a large community, it's a not too terribly hated Lisp, it's main problem from my perspective is probably the slowness of the JVM, and is that really a big deal?
07:16:34 <Sgeo> It's also more functional than CL
07:17:08 <Sgeo> I think the JVM gives it some impurities though
07:17:16 <Sgeo> I mean, how necessary are protocols when you have multimethods?
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07:32:11 <Sgeo> <amalloy> probably possible, but any sane person would murder you
07:32:22 <Sgeo> (To something I said in #clojure )
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08:39:32 <FreeFull> kmc: lol at everything soundnfury said about haskell
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08:42:53 <FreeFull> Ultimately Haskell is just another functional language
08:44:33 <itidus21> haskell is more than a programming language
08:45:26 <FreeFull> I'd think life would be a Lisp dialect
08:47:14 <itidus21> i suppose i should point out i am a troll who doesn't know haskell
08:51:27 <Sgeo> main = putStrLn "Learn Haskell!" >> main
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08:53:46 <itidus21> im joking.. but its just something i had on my mind
08:57:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | come to think of it, he was last year too, and the previous. but not the next | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
08:59:15 <FreeFull> I think the RTC will be soldered somewhere on your motherboard
08:59:31 <FreeFull> I don't think it'd be easy to buy a new one
08:59:37 <itidus21> whoa, breaking news: technology website publishes article about large corporation being investigated for IT patent infringement
09:00:13 <oerjan> more breaking news: politician implicated in corruption, hypocrisy
09:01:52 <FreeFull> Breaking news: Pop singer breaks up with movie actress!
09:07:09 <oerjan> Breaking news: Globe still warming.
09:08:25 <fizzie> Breaking news: Exiting a loop halfway through.
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09:16:27 <itidus21> it's actually incredible to me in hindsight how many patents can be created
09:16:59 <Sgeo> quintopia, no I'm not
09:17:04 <FreeFull> Sending messages over a number of computers connected together
09:17:05 <itidus21> like i think about all the manmade objects in my house, and i just don't see 10s of 1000s of patents
09:19:02 <FreeFull> There aren't enough RPN-like languages
09:19:56 <FreeFull> RPNised Lisp would have no ()s at all
09:20:49 <FreeFull> Might be harder to read though
09:20:58 <Sgeo> FreeFull, have you ever played with Factor?
09:21:01 <FreeFull> So you'd still do indentation for that
09:21:05 <Sgeo> Although admittedly it's not a Lisp
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09:30:33 <AnotherTest> kmc: boost::spirit doesn't to work with C++ 11 lambdas
09:31:03 <AnotherTest> but maybe I can convert them to a function object? That should work.
09:33:11 <AnotherTest> well since it already is a function object
09:37:58 <itidus21> one thing i don't like about patent battles is that the essential disputes in each case could be sufficiently abstracted and simplified that orangutans could stand in for the lawyers
09:38:07 <itidus21> i believe they possess the necessary reasoning skills
09:40:29 <itidus21> the commentary would be approximately the same too
09:41:00 <oerjan> will there be flinging of feces?
09:41:31 <itidus21> Billy and Tommy continue to butt heads over patents and the licensing of each others' technologies.
09:42:45 <itidus21> The two orangutans are not friends, but Billy wants to be, months after the zookeeper acquired the orangutan -- as well as its patent troubles.
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09:43:15 <itidus21> i broke the analogy there though
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09:44:29 <itidus21> oerjan: suffice to say that under experimental conditions, monkeys can experience executive stress and also get upset if someone is cheating
09:44:49 <itidus21> i don't know exactly how true that is, but it's enough to argue patents
09:45:45 <itidus21> like if you completely ignore the spirit of the patent, and see it as an abstract entity whose value is measured by the damage it can do to others
09:46:04 <oerjan> "We claim that Orangusoft has violated our patent on the upper hand fling."
09:47:24 * itidus21 finds Greater Bronze Patent Collection.
09:48:20 * itidus21 has encountered a kobold weak against Wifi Patents.
09:48:27 <oerjan> "I am sorry but previous to Orangusoft's patent the upper hand fling was only used for _hard_ feces. Our patent pertains to overcoming to obstacles of using _soft_ feces. Thus our company name, of course."
09:51:41 <FreeFull> "If you actually look at Orangusoft's patent, you'll notice that your company violates claims 3 and 4, which detail the use of trained chimpanzees to throw the feces rather than doing it manually."
09:51:58 <itidus21> my outburst is just that i am in a mood in real life.. i'll try watching some tv
09:56:47 <oerjan> "I am sorry but this is preposterous. Our company uses bonobos, an entirely different species."
10:01:59 <FreeFull> "Claim 5 covers the use of any ape as a replacement for the chimpanzees
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10:19:09 <Sgeo> "hello i will like to join you guys because im a big fan and i think it will be fun tell about all scp i see in real life
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10:58:32 <oklopol> so about 16 percent of papers in the leading CA conference are ours this year. such a popular field :D
10:59:00 <oklopol> actually it's two conferences in one because both were so small.
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11:19:42 <nortti> 03:34 < kmc> paging nortti // What?
11:22:57 <fizzie> nortti: Gregor commented that the problem with the "EMACS -> Eighty Megs And Constantly Swapping" expansion is that 80 megs is "nothing" now.
11:23:09 <fizzie> nortti: I think kmc was hoping you'd disagree.
11:23:25 <fizzie> (Though the acronym was "eight" when I heard it.)
11:24:09 <fizzie> #esoteric: may contain nuts.
11:26:55 <oklopol> in my opinion even a _single_ bit is quite a bit of memory.
11:27:36 <Gregor> Every biiiiiiit is preeeeeecious!
11:27:41 <Gregor> Every biiiiiiit is gooooooood!
11:31:19 <fizzie> Hoh, the DS apparently has a memory-mapped hardware div/rem (64-bit in/out) and sqrt (64-to-32) things. Fancy.
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12:17:26 <Sgeo> "Where do babies come from? Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much [REDACTED] and then the mommy says 'Oooh, I've never seen one so big!' [REDACTED] seven dwarves, but not those seven dwarves, that'd be silly, [REDACTED] which is the exact moment your uncle Steve comes out from behind the camera [REDACTED] 17 monkeys, three camels, and a VERY frisky otter [REDACTED] which kind of makes sense, considering your hair color [REDAC
12:17:27 <Sgeo> TED] dirty, dirty, dirty whore [REDACTED] "It'll never fit!" [REDACTED] and then, nine months later, with your mother cussing the entire time, and plotting your eventual devise, bam, a baby is adopted from an Asian country by two happy lesbians."
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12:21:24 <kmc> Sgeo: is JVM actually that slow? i mean, what are you going on here
12:22:26 <Sgeo> I think elliott saying he wouldn't use an esolang implementation written in Clojure affected me to perhaps an extreme degree
12:32:18 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Babies are made in China?
12:33:33 <FreeFull> fizzie: So you write the two values to memory and read back the result?
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12:50:19 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_triggered_architecture
12:56:05 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes. And then there's a mode/status reg that can be asked for if it's busy or what.
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14:04:49 <kmc> afaik Sun/Oracle JVM is one of the faster implementations of any managed language
14:04:54 <kmc> the shootout agrees fwiw
14:04:55 <kmc> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php
14:06:15 <kmc> they don't have LuaJIT :/
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14:09:57 <fizzie> Well, people have been paid real money (not just Monopoly dollars) to worry about the efficiency of that JVM, it ought to have done something.
14:10:09 <kmc> lots of people over decades
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14:20:37 <fizzie> "If you see the machine doing something with dazzling speed, it's probably the built-in machine language doing it."
14:21:02 <fizzie> (Random youtube clicking took me to a two-hour C64 introduction video.)
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14:44:46 <kmc> i finally got around to watching _The Social NetworK_
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14:54:09 <FreeFull> The Commodore 64 isn't that complicated
15:03:17 <itidus20> i love the term built in machine language
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15:47:08 <FreeFull> itidus20: Suggesting it could be not built in?
15:47:41 <itidus20> well actually this is the first time ive heard it but yes the comedy is there on many levels
15:48:25 <kmc> the degree to which machine language is "built in" varies widely
15:48:42 <kmc> for example operating systems will emulate instructions which are not implemented by your particular processor
15:50:23 <FreeFull> The processor might have separate microcode to define what instructions there are
15:50:47 <kmc> yeah, and microcode can sometimes be re-flashed
15:51:03 <itidus20> freefall, basically kmc has got my back to protect me from saying things which aren't true
15:51:06 <FreeFull> The N64 had changeable microcode for the graphics
15:51:26 <kmc> itidus20: i could never accomplish such a feat
15:51:37 <FreeFull> Most developers didn't make use of it
15:51:43 <FreeFull> But you could do some great things with it
15:51:58 <FreeFull> Most emulators won't emulate it though
15:52:04 <kmc> what could you do?
15:52:34 <itidus20> it has all the drawbacks of reality too
15:53:04 <FreeFull> Being clever, you could create graphics that would outdo the Playstation
15:53:13 <kmc> itidus20 have you used the debian/ubuntu magic qemulated chroots
15:53:15 <itidus20> its like trying to play videogames in hell (not that i believe in hell in that sense)
15:53:40 <kmc> it's pretty slick
15:53:43 <itidus20> its like.. ok the graphics look perfect.. the framerate is fine... but.. oh no.. i just tried to save and the emulator died
15:53:50 <kmc> but no you're just talking about video games
15:54:14 <itidus20> kmc: i always live in the shadows of the wonderful things
15:54:34 <itidus20> eg.. in programming languages i cant see beyond c++ and visual basic
15:54:45 <kmc> but C++ is fascinating!
15:54:47 <itidus20> and in math i can't see beyond middleschool math homework
15:54:57 <kmc> no it's not actually
15:55:03 <itidus20> and in emulation i can't see past video games
15:55:25 <FreeFull> The N64 graphics chip allowed you to reprogram basically everything about it
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15:55:33 <kmc> C++ is a bad language, but it's bad in almost the opposite way of most bad languages
15:55:38 <itidus20> but i guess i enjoy knowing theres more to things than i am aware of
15:55:56 <FreeFull> C++ is bad because it is a whole load of good elements mixed together
15:56:10 <kmc> in *theory*, all the C++ features fit together perfectly to form something that's powerful, conceptually consistent, elegant, and very unusual
15:56:15 <FreeFull> Most bad languages are just a whole load of bad elements
15:56:18 <kmc> if you really learn the language well, you start to see that
15:56:24 <itidus20> oh.. so its kind of the communism of programming languages?
15:56:34 <kmc> but, in *practice*, this amazing edifice they've built just kinda sucks for getting anything done
15:56:46 <kmc> it's not like PHP where idiots have just been adding features willy nilly
15:56:53 <kmc> the C++ designers put a *lot* of thought in
15:57:01 <FreeFull> In practice most people aren't smart enough to make full use of C++
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15:57:14 <kmc> not smart enough, and/or don't have years of their life to waste on learning it
15:57:32 <kmc> there are a lot of similarities between C++ and Haskell
15:57:40 <kmc> with respect to the above
15:57:42 <itidus20> well.. c++ isn't good for people who read language standards
15:58:31 <kmc> so real world projects end up using haphazardly chosen subsets of C++
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15:58:48 <kmc> and people approach it as "C with stuff grafted on"
15:59:14 <FreeFull> Haskell seems simpler than C++ to me
15:59:16 <kmc> and this is a lot *less* elegant than what C++ was intended to be
15:59:23 <kmc> but maybe also better for getting stuff done
15:59:24 <itidus20> i recall theres some test suite for C which has the name 9000 in it's name
16:00:19 <FreeFull> C++ would be better if it didn't start out with a C base, but it also would be less popular
16:01:01 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah
16:01:11 <kmc> a lot of the avoidable ugliness is syntactic ugliness relating to that choice
16:01:32 <kmc> they could have just specified an interface to C without making it take over the language
16:01:40 <kmc> every other popular language has a way to call C
16:02:02 <kmc> fruit fucker 9000
16:02:06 <itidus20> it was something to do with undefined behavior
16:03:09 <itidus20> so, the existence of such things suggests that people have a grip on C
16:04:16 <itidus20> even if theres elements in truth in what im saying, i should stop. i know im bullshitting
16:05:58 <FreeFull> As far as I understand, you can only use $ with functions that take multiple arguments if the whole thing is in brackets or if the $ is before the last argument?
16:06:35 <FreeFull> So atan2 $ something something won't work
16:07:57 <ion> If ($)’s fixity was fixed (no pun inteded) one could use atan2 $ a $ b. Well, using $ with atan2 is horrible, but it would be useful in longer expressions where the parameters are on separate lines.
16:08:03 <kmc> > atan2 $ negate 3
16:08:04 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
16:08:08 <kmc> god damn it lambdabot
16:08:13 <kmc> die in a fire and burn in hell
16:09:33 <kmc> FreeFull: every function takes exactly one argument
16:09:41 <kmc> there are no "functions that take multiple arguments"
16:09:53 <kmc> the rule you stated seems messy, it's better to focus on what's actually going on i think
16:10:14 <itidus20> in one small program i wrote once, i found that trying to use c++ as oop gave me good results
16:10:17 <FreeFull> kmc: I'm thinking, if you do atan2 $ something, you create a function
16:10:23 <kmc> > let f = subtract $ negate 3 in f 4
16:10:40 <FreeFull> But you can't call it with your next argument without () or using let like you did
16:10:42 <kmc> :t atan2 $ ?x
16:10:44 <lambdabot> forall a. (RealFloat a, ?x::a) => a -> a
16:11:09 <ion> > let ($) = (Prelude.$); infixl 0 $ in atan2 $ 4 $ 5
16:11:09 <kmc> that seems like a true fact FreeFull
16:11:22 <kmc> (well there are some other ways to name something, besides let)
16:11:22 <itidus20> maybe people who are highly experienced at coding, like having their 10,000 hours, can just read code easily
16:11:37 <kmc> itidus20: what an outrageous claim
16:12:13 <itidus20> i think that reading code and seeing what it is doing is incredibly difficult
16:12:33 <FreeFull> itidus20: Depends on how it was coded
16:12:47 <itidus20> at the most novice level, sure i can read the identifiers and infer from them what the code is doing
16:13:06 <itidus20> but, relying on identifiers is surely bad
16:13:16 <FreeFull> When you see puts("Hello, World!");
16:13:25 <FreeFull> You can identify what that does quickly, right?
16:14:22 <FreeFull> How about show 'H':'e':'l':'l':'o':[]
16:15:17 <itidus20> i am relying on the alphabetical characters to tell me what is happening which is.... showHello
16:15:39 <itidus20> well i guess.. i am not quite that desperate.. i know 'x' is a character
16:15:51 <FreeFull> Well, if you see something like A385BB35
16:16:08 <FreeFull> How are you going to know what it does without understanding what the identifiers mean
16:16:33 <FreeFull> A3 could be add, subtract, or even pop from stack
16:17:39 <FreeFull> It's always about using your current knowledge, and if you don't know enough, learning more
16:19:00 <itidus20> i guess thats the fun thing about esolangs
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16:19:40 <itidus20> among all the other fun things about esolangs
16:19:57 <FreeFull> If you encounter something which has nothing to do with anything you learned before, no amount of being super awesome will help, you just have to look at the documentation
16:20:56 <kmc> itidus20: they rarely have identifiers because almost all of them are brainfuck clones
16:21:57 <FreeFull> Brainfuck clones or a stack-based language
16:22:18 <FreeFull> Although "stack based" is a wide category
16:22:24 <FreeFull> Funges are technically stack-based
16:22:35 <FreeFull> But certainly not your usual language
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16:22:48 <nortti> there aren't that many lisp clones when I think about it
16:23:01 <FreeFull> They tend to be called lisp dialects
16:23:07 <kmc> how would you make an eso-lisp?
16:23:14 <kmc> i think there are a few on the wiki
16:23:25 <itidus20> well i got a psp and a ds recently... and homebrewing hardware.. and at some point i thought wow this is really cool.. emulation really has a lot of effects
16:23:43 <itidus20> but, it always seems to have drawbacks.. it's never quite there
16:23:44 <nortti> FreeFull: good luck using if with that
16:24:14 <itidus20> its always a work in progress project waiting to curl up and die
16:24:15 <FreeFull> nortti: Lisp uses prefix syntax anyway
16:24:34 <FreeFull> The only issue is where you can have an arbitrary amount of parameters, or possibly with macros
16:24:43 <nortti> FreeFull: yes but how you know how many params function needs?
16:24:46 <itidus20> new hardware and new hacks get released and suddenly its wasteful to fix a broken emulator
16:26:41 <FreeFull> nortti: If it's something like + or *, it can have an arbitrary number of parameters, so you could either restrict them to 2 parameters or have the first parameters be the number of parameters afterwards
16:27:03 <FreeFull> Most functions have a fixed number of parameters
16:27:29 <FreeFull> And with a lambda you know how many parameters there are too, since that gets specified
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16:28:57 <FreeFull> An example lambda would be lambda list 3 'x 'y 'z * x * y z
16:29:07 <FreeFull> A lambda here expects two parameters
16:29:59 <FreeFull> And produces a function which expects three parameters
16:30:13 <FreeFull> lambda list 3 'x 'y 'z * x * y z 1 2 3 should print 6
16:30:24 <FreeFull> I admit it's not very readable though
16:30:44 <FreeFull> You can always split stuff into smaller chunks though
16:31:25 <FreeFull> defun multiply3 qlist 3 x y z * x * y z; multiply3 1 2 3
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16:31:52 <fizzie> There's a SRFI that adds "I-expressions", an indentation-based way of writing S-expressions. You can also mix-n-match. Though I think it was withdrawn, maybe.
16:32:23 <FreeFull> You could have a preprocessor that converts (x y z) into list 3 x y z and '(x y z) into qlist 3 x y z
16:32:51 <nortti> fizzie: how do I write (foo (bar)(baz)) in I-expressions
16:35:29 <kmc> FreeFull: in scheme you can make a lambda which takes an arbitrary number of arguments
16:35:53 <kmc> you would have to restrict / change that ability as well
16:36:23 <fizzie> nortti: "foo\n group bar\n group baz" I think. There's a special "group" symbol to support lists whose first element is a list. Plain "foo\n bar\n baz" would have been (foo bar baz).
16:36:36 <FreeFull> kmc: You'd need to have the caller pass in the number of arguments
16:38:28 <FreeFull> Hey, apparently in lisp (*) is equivalent to 1 and (+) to 0
16:38:57 <FreeFull> So you could get rid of digits altogether
16:39:35 <FreeFull> And create all numbers using (*) (/) (+) (-)
16:40:08 <fizzie> Scheme, too. And (- x) is (- 0 x), while (/ x) is (/ 1 x). But the >2-argument extensions of - and / are optional.
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16:41:45 <FreeFull> Does Haskell have a way to produce a number without using any digits?
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16:42:23 <ion> > maxBound :: Integer
16:42:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
16:42:29 <ion> > maxBound :: Int -- duh
16:42:35 <zzo38> Does the Lisp (*) (+) just multiply and add any number of arguments? If so then it makes sense that (*) would be 1 and (+) would be zero
16:42:38 <FreeFull> How about without using lists either?
16:43:18 <FreeFull> How would you use maxBound to produce numbers smaller than maxBound itself?
16:43:26 <ion> > fromEnum 'a'
16:43:26 <fizzie> Well, there's quite a few different maxBounds.
16:43:40 <ion> > minBound :: Word8
16:44:03 <ion> > succ . minBound :: Word8
16:44:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Word.Word8'
16:44:07 <ion> > succ minBound :: Word8
16:44:24 <fizzie> > [fromEnum False, fromEnum True]
16:44:36 <fizzie> Those are quite easy 0 and 1 there.
16:44:53 <FreeFull> > (maxBound :: Int) `div` (maxBound :: Int)
16:45:10 <ion> > join div maxBound
16:45:12 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
16:45:14 <ion> > join div maxBound :: Int
16:45:44 <ion> > (join (-) . join div) maxBound :: Int
16:46:02 <ion> @type join
16:46:04 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a
16:46:16 <fizzie> It's part of Control.Monad if you mean where it's from.
16:46:16 <ion> where m ~ ((->) r)
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16:48:58 <kmc> > (sum [], product [])
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17:49:22 <boily> that netsplit made me learn something interesting: I'm on IPv6.
17:50:04 <zzo38> You have not known that before?
17:51:30 <fizzie> And how did the netsplit suddenly reveal it?
17:51:32 <zzo38> Can a computer's optical drive be sound-proofed?
17:51:40 <boily> no, it never dawned on me before. I usually connect to IRC in the morning before I had any coffee, so details like that tend to go unnoticed.
17:52:16 <boily> fizzie: because weechat shows the user@ip of persons that join/part.
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17:52:28 <boily> fizzie: --> | cuttlefish (~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:0:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765) a rejoint #esoteric
17:53:29 <fizzie> Ah, so it was someone "else's" rejoining.
17:53:59 <zzo38> Now I am the champion of the BBS boxing game
17:54:36 <zzo38> (I was 11th and am now champion)
17:56:13 <fizzie> In the (now defunct) BBS system of a Finnish computer magazine, there was a "60 minutes per day" time limit, but you could win extra minutes in some of the games. (Though not in the "regular" games like LORD, I don't think; there was some lottery-like thing though where you could "pay" with minutes, and win minutes.)
17:56:40 <zzo38> This is X-BIT and it was defunct and one time but now it is back on.
17:57:16 <fizzie> (There was also a "time bank" that went up to... 240 minutes, maybe? Officially for long downloads. Can't get much more than a megabyte in an hour, after all.)
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18:08:12 <zzo38> If you need to download something you could use FTP; Synchronet does support a lot of protocols (Telnet, SSH, rlogin, FTP, HTTP, gopher, IRC, NNTP, SMTP, POP3, ...)
18:10:17 <fizzie> The computer magazine did make the file archives available over... at least HTTP and I think FTP too, later, when the Internet really came along. (They also offered a dial-up Internet connection, IIRC.)
18:12:09 <kmc> the Stripe web security CTF thingy starts at the end of the hour
18:12:20 <kmc> (unless you're in one of those weird non-integral-GMT-offset timezones)
18:12:27 <kmc> https://stripe.com/blog
18:13:43 <Lumpio-> I think I used it exactly once
18:13:58 <Lumpio-> They had telnet access in the later years, right?
18:14:13 <fizzie> The SModem-based "chat and download at the same thing" was, like, so futuristic.
18:14:21 <Lumpio-> I borrowed the user ID off a library copy of the magazine.
18:14:21 <fizzie> SModem itself is a Finnish invention, I think.
18:15:13 <Lumpio-> tbh it's pretty trivial to do if you just come up with a simple protocol on top of the raw teletype data
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18:15:31 <Lumpio-> The fact that it took so long to invent says something about the laziness of BBS people.
18:15:34 <fizzie> Sure, but ZModem and the rest didn't do it.
18:15:37 <Lumpio-> And/or reluctance to change
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18:16:55 <fizzie> It's also not completely trivial; at least ZModem isn't, I don't know about SModem. (There's a TCP-like sliding window ack thing and such.)
18:17:06 <zzo38> Telnet is the main protocol to access any modern Synchronet BBS, although there are other protocols too which may be enabled/disabled on some BBS. (Telnet can also be disabled although that would seem pretty useless.)
18:17:47 <zzo38> Well now we have internet, so you don't need that SModem if you can just make multiple connections, one to Telnet and one to FTP, or something like that
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18:20:02 <kmc> T R I V I A L
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18:22:29 <kmc> what ever happened to the word "easy", anyway
18:22:45 <zzo38> kmc: Is it too short for some people?
18:22:51 <zzo38> Especially long people?
18:22:56 <kmc> seems like
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18:26:19 <zzo38> I tried in Haskell to make something like the Free monad but specify a monad transformer instead of a functor, so you could have (TransFree Codensity) and so on; (TransFree (ReaderT x)) seem to be similar like (Free ((->) x)) I think but some are different. What would you think of it?
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18:30:24 <zzo38> data TransFree t x = TransPure x | TransFree (t (TransFree t) x); join (TransFree x) = TransFree (x >>= lift);
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18:32:12 <zzo38> data TransCofree t x = TransCofree x (t (TransCofree t) x); duplicate (TransCofree x y) = TransCofree (TransCofree x y) (y =>> lower);
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18:49:07 <olsner> kmc: I think trivial and easy mean different things ... something can be trivial but require loads of work, for instance
18:49:48 <olsner> but trivial is nicer because it points out how stupid someone is for not knowing that something is trivial
18:50:01 <kmc> to me it's become just a douchebag version of "easy"
18:50:21 <kmc> and i don't like it when people describe conceptually simple but difficult-to-do things as "trivial"
18:50:53 <kmc> basically i think "trivial" should mean "so incredibly simple that there isn't anything to say about it at all"
18:51:07 <kmc> so when people say "trivial 100-line script" or "trivial one day project" it sounds like an absurd contradiction
18:51:11 <kmc> but who am i to say what words should mean
18:51:49 <kmc> i would be happy with the description of many programming tasks as "mathematically trivial" but that does not make them trivial to implement :)
18:52:25 <kmc> getting psyched for this CTF
18:53:00 <zzo38> I generally only use "trivial" when talking about mathematics, using in the way it is used in mathematics
18:53:11 <zzo38> Such as a "trivial ring" or whatever
18:54:04 <zzo38> So in other words just because something is easy does not necessarily make it trivial, and vice versa
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19:01:24 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like step 1 of the CTF is to DDoS their website. :-(
19:01:52 <shachaf> Oh, or maybe my connection was just being problematic.
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19:46:30 <kmc> https://stripe-ctf.com
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20:04:44 * impomatic is trying to write a quine in Mouse
20:08:40 <zzo38> impomatic: What did you try so far?
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20:12:04 <FreeFull> I wonder what a Haskell quine looks like
20:13:41 <impomatic> zzo38: #f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"#f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"@
20:14:17 <impomatic> zzo38: it almost works, apart from ! in a string is converted to a newline :-(
20:14:18 <zzo38> Yes that is one way to make a Haskell quine, without I/O. But the other way would be to do with I/O.
20:14:41 <zzo38> impomatic: Oops! Try without ! then?
20:14:48 <shachaf> putStrLn$ap(++)show"putStrLn$ap(++)show"
20:15:20 <impomatic> It need ! because !' is the code to output a character
20:15:40 <zzo38> shachaf: And then put main= to make it a entire program
20:15:57 <zzo38> impomatic: Maybe you need 33!' to make a exclamation mark output?
20:16:43 <impomatic> zzo38: that's what I'm trying, but it makes things even uglier!
20:17:03 <zzo38> Probably you have to anyways
20:18:52 <olsner> that's also a C quine, for some dialects of C
20:19:05 <zzo38> But you have to make the quine program which is not empty file
20:24:27 <zzo38> In many programming language the empty program will also make no output ending successfully: Brainfuck, BASIC, INTERCAL, Forth, JavaScript, PHP, Perl, probably some others too. But, C, Haskell, they won't compile empty file.
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20:50:36 <itidus20> so the empty program is a polyglot?
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20:53:03 <itidus20> and a quine too in most cases probably
20:56:40 <olsner> how can star trek enterprise have worse special effects than DS9?
21:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, I never thought DS9's effects looked all that bad TbH.
21:02:44 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the point is that enterprise has worse effects
21:03:25 <olsner> oh, and DS9 was randomly chosen because the first ENT episode had shape shifters
21:04:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:04:32 <olsner> no, they were sulivan or somesuch
21:04:37 <olsner> iirc they never appear again
21:06:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: May contain nuts | elliott now constructible with compass and ruler | come to think of it, he was last year too, and the previous. but not the next | Just a remote control and some old gum | atriq is Taneb, just so you know | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, that would just be a flat, controller-shaped touchscreen though.
21:06:59 <olsner> otoh, there was only 2 years between DS9 and Enterprise... and Odo was a major character that they could spend some money getting right
21:07:32 <kmc> playstation 9. teleport yours today.
21:07:56 <olsner> the temporal console wars
21:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, there were 9 years between the first season of DS9 and Enterprise, though.
21:08:55 <olsner> maybe enterprise is just a lot cheaper?
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21:09:45 <oerjan> nooga: welcome to our complex plane
21:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it's set like 200 years earlier so maybe it was before the changelings had developed convincing morph animations
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21:10:55 <oerjan> <Gregor> Every biiiiiiit is preeeeeecious! <-- if a bit is wasted...
21:11:10 <olsner> another random note about enterprise: they actually mention curing cancer, I wonder if they mention cancer in any of the other series
21:12:15 <olsner> it seemed to be considered trivial there ... not that star trek should care about that, but I think that cancer will never be quite trivial
21:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course not, that would make the Federation something other than a perfect utopia where nothing goes wrong.
21:13:11 <olsner> maybe it's so trivial they have forgotten that it existed at all, like us and yersina pestis
21:13:24 <kmc> it seems almost impossible to cure all forms of cancer
21:13:32 <kmc> it seems like an inevitable failure mode of self-reproducing systems
21:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> well we know that breast cancer has become a thing of the past by the time of memory alpha's writing
21:13:55 <kmc> but you can prevent the most common instances of that failure mode
21:15:05 <olsner> oerjan: speaking of complex plane, is there a UTF that involves complex numbers?
21:15:37 <fizzie> olsner: UTF-i, but it's imaginary.
21:17:05 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Sgeo: Babies are made in China? <-- why would babies be the exception?
21:18:33 <fizzie> Speaking of babies, should I have some sort of a birth certificate of myself? Do people normally bother to own a copy? I mean, non-Presidents and so on.
21:19:18 <oerjan> i think i've seen mine, so it's presumably somewhere
21:19:27 <olsner> I thought they only did the whole crtificate business in the US
21:19:47 <olsner> I put my trust the almighty government database
21:19:59 <olsner> I'm in a computer somewhere, I must be
21:20:43 <boily> birth certificates are kinda useless, without any photo or other biometric data that can link the paper to you...
21:20:43 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen mine, but there's a reasonable possibility my mother has some kind of paper.
21:25:16 <fizzie> Apparently there's some kind of an extract you can get from the Population Register Centre that can sort of serve if someone abroad requires a "birth certificate".
21:25:38 <fizzie> Maybe I'll let the Database take care of it.
21:27:53 <olsner> oh, if I'm correct about which document somehow corresponds to a birth certificate, I have seen it
21:29:23 <olsner> you just enter your personal number and they mail a copy to you
21:29:53 <fizzie> The extract I mentioned costs 5 eur, so I don't think I'll bother getting a copy.
21:30:00 <fizzie> They can lose it just as well without my help.
21:30:09 <oerjan> i recall it had my birth time on it. 20 something, but i've forgotten the minutes. useful for getting a horoscope.
21:30:33 <olsner> I don't know or remember what time it was, but I know that it was snowing
21:30:36 <fizzie> Oh, that'd be "useful". I've heard my time, but I can't remember it at all.
21:31:18 <oerjan> fizzie: you just say that because you're a capricorn.
21:31:45 <fizzie> I don't think I'm one of those.
21:32:05 <olsner> o.O youtube now only shows my stuff that has been shared to me on google+
21:32:29 <olsner> instead of that "stuff you're likely to like" thing they used to do
21:33:29 <fizzie> I think I'm a pig, though.
21:33:35 <fizzie> In that Chinese thing.
21:37:41 <fizzie> Why is it that quite often these days I get "An error occurred. Please try again later." from youtube, either at start or just randomly in the middle of a video? (At least tha animated static behind the message is very nice.)
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21:38:51 <Lumpio-> What was the command to get fungot's source again
21:38:52 <olsner> did you know that corn flakes were originally intended to discourage masturbation?
21:38:52 <fungot> Lumpio-: try 2 hav sm slep. din me nahi so payegi tu to 3 ko jana n waha pe links of ur competitor's sites to take it to god in prayer. b is an average i think...
21:39:05 <fungot> Lumpio-: ya. exam over le... lol...
21:39:14 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:39:26 <olsner> fungot uses ^ as a prefix
21:39:27 <fungot> olsner: shal i tel u d way u lik. sry for the late reply. was giving tuition. dinner very short onela, but nvm i rmb to send me a virtual hug? school got so much love. confirm nice one. there. emulsified.
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21:41:27 <fizzie> Lumpio-: It'll get fixed as soon as the box sends a DHCP renew request the next time. (I *really* should puzzle out what on earth is up with that.)
21:42:04 <Lumpio-> You know, I get the same thing with my home cable connection.
21:42:26 <Lumpio-> From what I've been able to discern (it only does it randomly something like once a week so it's a bit hard to track down),
21:42:43 <fizzie> Lumpio-: This thing stays connectable-from-the-outside-world about 20-30 minutes, then things just... stop. And everything starts working perfectly right after the dhcp-renew.
21:42:43 <Lumpio-> It cuts the connection for just a few seconds and the DHCP lease also goes instantly stale.
21:42:59 <fizzie> It doesn't make a difference for connections from the inside out, though.
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21:43:11 <fizzie> I can reach the Internet just fine; it's just that the Internet can't reach me.
21:43:28 <fizzie> And another computer in the same switch is having no problems whatsoever, even though both have the same dhclient and etc.
21:43:30 <Lumpio-> Mine just drops off the Internet completely.
21:43:42 <fizzie> Anyway, in the meanwhile, fungot source: http://sprunge.us/hGRJ
21:43:43 <fungot> fizzie: dnt u tel ur feelngs 2 hr session. lol
21:44:23 <fizzie> fungot: And you stop speaking like a SMS-age teenager, please.
21:44:24 <fungot> fizzie: hw to send dis to al ur"valued frnds. always laughing is too simple... winning is tooo. haha meet at tpy first rply me i m cmng n bike one la i'm going school earlier to buybubble tea up his whole house... y da... gud nt
21:45:01 <fizzie> I don't think I want to know.
21:45:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
21:45:21 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
21:45:28 <fungot> olsner: moral effects of. what you say may have far-reaching effects, hence the importance of careful forethought in the planning and preparation of your speeches.
21:46:09 <fungot> olsner: i only allude to mr. fnord
21:47:33 <oerjan> yes, best not to do more than allude
21:47:56 <fizzie> Some of the books of "speeches" might actually be books about how to write speeches.
21:48:09 <fizzie> I think I just grepped the gutenberg database for "speech".
21:49:51 <FreeFull> fizzie: Have you tried switching the ports the computers are connected to
21:50:10 <fungot> FreeFull: thus much is certain: that the ages in which the true principles of philosophy were least understood were those in which taste has been most correct. it seems, a way of walking, a way as possible, into their elements, that he cannot know whether it is a very strange thing, and he examined it intently. " my wife has some relations in the presbyterian churches, and theatres, had found an asylum in the obscure dwelling w
21:50:58 <fizzie> FreeFull: Nnno, but it sounds very unlikely to do a thing. I mean, it's a very non-intelligent switch, non-manageable and so on. And it's specifically the DHCP renewal that fixes it; random (successful) traffic out doesn't help.
21:51:45 <fizzie> I think I'll need to verify the outgoing-connections thing, though, since that's an equally weird thing to work.
21:52:57 <fizzie> Apparently there was a DHCPREQUEST + DHCPACK five minutes ago, so I think it's working at the moment.
21:58:55 <olsner> http://www.stephenfrysmoustache.com/
22:02:03 <olsner> calling it a day only 45 seconds in? that's giving up a tad early
22:02:49 <oerjan> well "it" refers to the previous day, obviously
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22:33:43 <zzo38> If you have if(Y=='#') A++; if(Y=='!') A--; then you could also do the same as if(Y>='#') A++; if(Y<='!') A--; and according some document that CPY should set the carry flag if greater or equal, then ADC add 1 if carry flag is set. Does GCC or LLVM have any kind of optimizations such as these?
22:42:26 <Lumpio-> Is Y guaranteed to be either # or !
22:47:38 <zzo38> If it is guaranteed to be either '#' or '!' then it works.
22:48:04 <zzo38> Well, it could also be '"' and still works.
22:49:15 <zzo38> LLVM does have a range metadata to indicate the range of a value loaded from memory.
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