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01:11:29 <zzo38> I think MZM layer mode is the same as PC textmode format (except for the header).
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04:35:47 <itidus21> <zzo38> I requires a large number of cells. -- millions
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04:40:54 <Sgeo> Ah, just wikipedia'd it
04:47:04 <itidus21> which operations are expected to be more efficient by internalising computer data?
04:50:13 <itidus21> that is to say, given a pleasant autumn day and a garden by a creek, can a computer's data being uploaded to a human brain somehow improve the ability for a human to sit under a tree and listen to the birds sing?
04:51:31 * pikhq notes that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder is the worst thing
04:55:16 <itidus21> ostensibly my point is that humans do not need man-made augmentation except on a case by case basis for medical conditions
04:56:47 <itidus21> the only reason for this dark alley of research to exist is for profit
04:58:04 <pikhq> But the only real distinction between direct augmentation of the human form and technology is the efficiency.
04:58:21 <pikhq> And the human form, honestly, has many faults.
04:58:55 <pikhq> It is fucking *buggy*.
04:58:56 <itidus21> if you find a way to harm people in a way that they are willing to be harmed and make it legal, you will invaribaly maximize profits
04:59:30 <itidus21> i don't know why but this rule seems to hold quite well
04:59:49 <pikhq> But is human augmentation harmful?
05:00:13 <itidus21> pikhq: the only thing more faulty than non-man-made things is man-made things :D
05:01:01 <pikhq> Dude, we have organs that are only notable because they fuck up and kill you.
05:01:12 <pikhq> Speaking of: we are not just mortal, but short-lived.
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05:01:41 <itidus21> i certainly don't want to be immortal
05:01:59 <pikhq> Do you wish to live right now? Do you wish to live tomorrow?
05:02:36 <pikhq> Do you anticipate any day where you will not want to live the *next* day?
05:03:01 <pikhq> If you answered "yes", then induction says you want to live forever.
05:03:24 <itidus21> my perspectives will change with me
05:03:53 <pikhq> So, you are telling me you personally anticipate waking up one day and deciding you don't want to live the next day?
05:04:45 <itidus21> i wish the immortals all the best
05:05:00 <itidus21> as to your question... well.........
05:05:19 <pikhq> I highly doubt you actually, genuinely believe this. You may well believe *that* you believe it.
05:06:16 <pikhq> But I doubt you will one day decide "y'know, I want to die", barring mental disorders (another bug in the human form, FWIW)
05:06:37 <itidus21> wait until the next world war..
05:08:35 <itidus21> to say that there is no point to living forever would not be really making the point strong enough
05:11:33 <pikhq> But why would there be no point to living forever?
05:11:39 <pikhq> Modulo heat death.
05:11:52 <pikhq> Heat death of the universe kinda does make living forever pointless.
05:12:05 <pikhq> A universe actually devoid of everything is pointless.
05:12:52 <itidus21> it is, regardless of how one can turn about and say how bout you die now
05:13:10 <pikhq> But why should it be ok to erase a sentient being from existence?
05:13:15 <itidus21> its not a sin in any religion etc
05:13:35 <pikhq> If it's not evil to die, why is it universally frowned upon to cause death?
05:13:36 <itidus21> killing is different kettle of fish
05:13:44 <pikhq> And, seriously, argument from religion?
05:14:03 <itidus21> its not immoral or unethical to die that i know of
05:14:53 <pikhq> Religion would have you think the world was created by a benevolent and omnipotent being. A world where pain and suffering is typical of life.
05:17:19 <itidus21> humm.. i wonder if this notion of dying being subject to ethical judgement has its own movement
05:17:36 <itidus21> it surely would.. im not even going to bother checking
05:22:02 <pikhq> Furthermore, can I ask why most religions are based in the concept that mortality *is in fact undesirable*? Religions themselves may not be true, but it certainly says much that they were mostly invented as ways of saying "no, you are immortal!"
05:22:28 <Sgeo> I think that what makes the most sense would be immortality, with the option of suicide.
05:22:30 <itidus21> if i am immortal, then that will take care of itself
05:24:30 <Sgeo> But, I can't imagine there being a limit to human creativity, and the things I can learn and understand, for.... a few million years at least?
05:24:35 <Sgeo> Well, certainly at least a few thousand
05:24:57 <itidus21> well... humans will probably stop being humans eventually
05:24:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: There's a whole lightcone to explore.
05:25:33 <itidus21> for better or worse, with or without space travel, assuming we are subject to evolutionary processes
05:26:01 <pikhq> itidus21: We shape our reality much faster than evolution could.
05:26:48 <pikhq> We have already created, in this conversation, more reality than evolution could in thousands of years.
05:26:55 <pikhq> s/reality/information/
05:27:39 <itidus21> my thoughts on efficiency are that basically, we need a clever dictator to make things efficient
05:27:54 <itidus21> instead of relying on order from chaos
05:28:41 <itidus21> it doesn't work economically though.. im not sure if having a dictator can help in that regard
05:28:57 <pikhq> An omnipotent benevolent one, perhaps.
05:29:02 <pikhq> ... Not that that's likely. :)
05:29:19 <itidus21> you-- you will mine metals from underneath that rainforest
05:29:31 <itidus21> and you... you will build circuits out of those metals
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05:32:22 <itidus21> and.. this dictator would make sure all plugs were compatible
05:32:40 <itidus21> there would be no regional data formats, no regional plug standards, no proprietry formats
05:34:15 <itidus21> and if this is not comfortable, then maybe efficiency itself is the problem
05:36:22 <itidus21> there would be no possessions, no rights, etc. simply people efficiently doing what the dictator says
05:37:09 <Sgeo> pikhq, Friendly AI?
05:37:32 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that would be just near-omniscient and extremely-potent
05:37:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sufficient, IME.
05:39:23 <Sgeo> You have experience with friendly AIs?
05:39:25 <itidus21> like, the development of the png standard (i wonder how many 1000s of man hours involved in all the paperwork around png) is partially a workaround to gif
05:40:01 <itidus21> so rather than... trying to make it more efficient to code work-arounds... it may be more efficient to eliminate workarounds
05:41:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, no, as none exist
05:41:38 <Sgeo> So what did you mean by IME?
05:41:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: In my estimation.
05:42:12 <pikhq> I used word wrong, sorry
05:42:17 <itidus21> like, in my system... tomorrow every piece of source code would be uploaded to a giant open source database
05:42:34 <itidus21> but it would be quite a mess.. im not sure how they would clean it up
05:44:08 <itidus21> it seems inefficient for the collective source coding of humanity to have so much redundancy
05:44:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
05:45:30 <itidus21> i think if given the choice, most would prefer to have access to the worlds source code rather than some kind of surgery
05:45:54 <itidus21> maybe thats oversimplifying it.. i don't know
06:05:21 <zzo38> Dictatorship is certainly more efficient, but I do not think that necessarily makes it better than others.
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06:42:53 * pikhq notes that feeling like a worthless human being sucks
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07:05:48 <itidus21> pikhq: these things that suck.. im starting to wonder if you are experiencing them
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07:10:41 <itidus21> in any case, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
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10:37:10 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out how another program can detect these .NSF music is finished, by using cheat finder in VirtuaNES (VirtuaNES does allow the cheat finder to be used with NSFs too!)
10:39:31 <itidus21> zzo38: although there is ps3, 3ds, wii, xbox360, modern pc, ps vita, i think NES is something beautiful.
10:40:27 <itidus21> it embodies a set of constraints for multimedia computer applications i think
10:40:36 <zzo38> It seems like it is working. In three files I have tested so far (all made by the same person, using FamiTracker), $0211 is 1 while the music is playing and 0 when it stops, at least seem to.
10:41:08 <zzo38> itidus21: I think they make modern systems way too complicated.
10:41:37 <itidus21> well, one thing modern systems are good for is using the NES more efficiently
10:41:50 <zzo38> It is possible to make it useful and powerful without too much complicated, and that is one thing I intend to make.
10:42:39 <itidus21> suddenly we don't need any carts.. we can have the entire software library of nes as zip files or similar
10:43:35 <zzo38> Yes and you can make your own, too. The difficulty is if you want to make custom mappers, but I am designing a file format which would allow that too.
10:44:09 <itidus21> the trouble with the custom stuff is theres no limits on it
10:44:30 <itidus21> like you could have an entire pc as part of the cartridge
10:45:06 <zzo38> Yes you could, but it would be very complicated if you did that. Simple discrete logic would be simpler, and the mapper codes for such things would be smaller.
10:45:43 <itidus21> who am i kidding i dont quite know what mappers are or how they work etc..
10:45:45 <zzo38> DotFami format probably wouldn't even have commands to do such complicated things as an entire PC, anyways.
10:46:55 <itidus21> i am not actually that interested in emulation.
10:47:18 <zzo38> DotFami only allows up to 256 components, although the individual components may be a bit complicated. I intend that it can represent all the iNES mappers, as well as NSF, and simple custom discrete logic mappers.
10:47:30 <itidus21> because trifling matters like needing a 3ghz machine to emulate a 25mhz snes or such seems completely absurd
10:50:26 <itidus21> so theres things i want to do to nes roms which seems ridiculous to most.
10:51:27 <itidus21> i want to rewrite a game's internals, but present the same end-user experience as an orginal nes rom
10:53:50 <itidus21> i would have to concede to not knowing the exact nes palette
10:55:08 <itidus21> but assuming an approximation of the nes palette, i would abandon the 6502 code and rewrite the graphics using calls to blit functions
10:57:04 <zzo38> It does not have an exact palette; instead, the high 2 bits specify the high and low voltage levels, and the low 4 bits specify the phase, and these are combined to make the color. Color $0x specifies a blacker than black level, so $0D is blacker than black and may mess up the display of some TV sets (use $1D for the proper black).
10:58:06 <zzo38> Colors $20 and $30 are the same because $x0 uses the constant high level ($0x uses the constant low level), and $2x and $3x have the same high level.
10:58:17 <itidus21> as for sound, if the game had a finite set of sounds, i will store them in formats like .wav, .mp3, .midi
10:58:50 <itidus21> and.. as for how the music on nes actually works... well....
10:59:03 <zzo38> Or you could use .ogg .flac .it whatever. Or, use MIDI and have your own MIDI synthesizer.
10:59:05 <itidus21> i just don't know the best approach
10:59:27 <zzo38> I know how the music on NES works.
10:59:34 <itidus21> the goal would be to reproduce all the sounds in the game with maximum efficiency
11:05:14 <itidus21> ... i think what i want is to replace the primary cpu aspect of NES with native pc code
11:05:41 <itidus21> but maintainng the constraints on sound, graphics and controller input
11:06:35 <itidus21> VGA becomes famicom FGA... for obvious reasons
11:08:50 <itidus21> i wish i bought soft drink today
11:09:54 <fizzie> But liquids are (pretty much) incompressible! How does it work!
11:10:39 <itidus21> i explode a bomb inside the drink
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14:29:57 <Arc_Koen> so I've been thinking, is it possible to include '--' at all in a Maze program, without provoking an error?
14:32:44 <atriq> I'm not familiar enough with Maze to answer
14:33:24 <Arc_Koen> where ## are walls, .. are "paths" where the cars can drive
14:33:41 <Arc_Koen> and '--' is supposed to "transform into a wall after a car has driven over it"
14:34:18 <Arc_Koen> but the thing is, cars are supposed to "guess" what way they are have to go, using only walls
14:34:34 <Arc_Koen> (that is, they are not supposed to "need" instructions to tell them to turn)
14:35:51 <Arc_Koen> so I had been assuming that any tile a car can drive over either contains an instruction to tell the car what to do (such as "go up"), or exactly two of the adjacent tiles are walls
14:36:24 <Arc_Koen> so, of the four adjacent tiles, two are walls, one is the path the car comes from, and one the fourth is the path where the car must go
14:36:50 <Arc_Koen> but I don't see how this count (2 walls + 2 paths) can be respected with '--'
14:37:05 <Arc_Koen> since -- is a path that becomes a wall
14:37:25 <Arc_Koen> (and there are no "walls that become paths" to balance it)
14:38:54 <Arc_Koen> I'll write that on the talk page
14:45:33 <atriq> I've slightly damaged the screen
14:45:43 <atriq> The screen itself is fine
14:45:48 <atriq> The right hinge, though...
14:46:05 <atriq> Possibly qualifies as a lethal bladed weapon
14:49:13 <atriq> More a tiny knife with a sheaf attached to the handle
14:49:23 <atriq> And the handle and sheaf are huge and work as a computer
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15:34:20 <atriq> "Works best in Safari/Chrome" is not a feature.
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16:31:32 <atriq> I wonder if I could run a mile...
16:32:49 <atriq> Google Maps thinks that if I run a mile I'd end up at the Fox
16:37:19 <fizzie> And doesn't it kind of depend which direction you run to?
16:38:26 <atriq> If I ran the other way, I'd end up about half way to Dilston
16:38:52 <fizzie> I could run a mile southeast and end up at a (horse) race track.
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16:42:23 <fizzie> Or a bit over a mile to the west to end up at the local Mormon chruch temple.
16:46:47 <atriq> Of course, I don't drink, and I'm too young to buy alcohol
16:49:20 <atriq> So running to the pub would be a tad useless
16:49:29 <Arc_Koen> that's a shame. you can't hitchhike vogon ships if you haven't had the proper amount of beer from a pub just before!
16:51:37 <fizzie> The temple is only open to members, so running there would be quite useless too.
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17:43:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm sure they'd be quite happy to consider your application
17:44:46 <fizzie> I don't know, they seemed to have quite a lot of requirements.
17:46:04 <fizzie> It's not even enough to be a member, you need some kind of a "Temple Recommend".
17:46:52 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_(LDS_Church)#Entrance_requirements and especially the "Worthiness interview" list.
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17:50:13 <fizzie> They did have that "Open House" thing when it was built recently-ish, I remember seeing something about that.
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18:21:03 <zzo38> The cheat finder is not only for cheating, isn't it?
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18:58:31 <Sgeo> Fun fact: WorldsPlayer requires JRE6. JRE7 won't work
19:01:28 <kmc> that's news you can use
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19:24:57 <Sgeo> Might be useful for Phantom_Hoover if he ever decides to join us to see what the fuss was about
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19:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god no, I don't want to get sucked into your weird nightmare.
19:38:29 <Sgeo> Most of it isn't a nightmare
19:38:45 <Sgeo> In fact, there's a world somewhere with a tardis, it's kind of fun
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19:59:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you can always just stick to the Worlds.com worlds, the only nightmare there is BowieWorld
20:00:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and BlackHillsForest and BurkittsvilleDinner
20:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> No good! How can I feel safe unless there's someone manning the walls between the safety of worlds.com and the nightmares?
20:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that you just listed three nightmares that are within this supposed haven does not fill me with confidence.
20:01:28 <Sgeo> Well, aren't BlackHillsForest and BurkittsvilelDinner named after/promotion materials for horror films?
20:01:38 <Sgeo> So, if you see anything named after a horror film, just avoid it
20:02:33 <Sgeo> Oh, and the basement in AnimalHouse.
20:02:52 <Sgeo> (Which connects to the bathroom stalls of I forget which, it's like a Club)
20:03:29 <Sgeo> Everything in WorldsCenter except possibly FunHouse is safe.
20:04:12 <Sgeo> And I do emphasize the "possibly"
20:04:21 <Sgeo> It's more weird and colorful than anything scary.
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20:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I'm safe in worlds.com unless I visit any of the places that aren't safe, and I'm definitely safe in worldscentre unless I visit the unsafe place.
20:07:10 <Sgeo> The one possibly unsafe place is marked as "VIP", which is only for paying people (although there are ways around that, and you start off with a free trial. But still, it's market)
20:07:20 <Sgeo> And I think it's the only such entire pod in WorldsCenter
20:07:29 <Sgeo> I should note that WorldsCenter is relatively boring
20:08:16 <Sgeo> This user-made tower may be safe and interesting, I think
20:08:55 <Sgeo> Well, maybe. But the portals means you can see into each room and decide if you want to explore it or not.
20:10:16 <fizzie> The ubiquitous boredom/safety tradeoff.
20:10:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the default world, GroundZero, is safe, unless you deliberately walk through a solid wall.
20:11:03 <Sgeo> Can't do it by accident.
20:12:03 <fizzie> Personally I sometimes have trouble walking through solid walls even purposefully.
20:13:00 <Sgeo> Not much until you walk too far and when you do you're put into a green cave.
20:13:31 <Sgeo> I am working under the assumption that you are scared to death by green caves.
20:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, helpful tip: don't do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAOooKkWp4w
20:16:45 <fizzie> "Green cave" is some kind of a slang term for something unspeakable, right?
20:16:48 <Sgeo> There is an Escher tribute in the tower.
20:17:00 <Sgeo> It's very clearly marked as an Escher tribute
20:19:22 <Sgeo> I'm going to go ahead and call the tower "safe"
20:19:24 <Sgeo> Weird, but safe.
20:19:33 <Sgeo> Although funhouse is probably safer
20:20:12 <Sgeo> Oh, Skypod in WorldsCenter isn't safe if you're scared of heights.
20:20:30 <Sgeo> You can't actually fall though, there are invisible walls.
20:22:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, there's a user-made world called "LSD Dream Emulator"
20:22:51 <Sgeo> Oh, it's based off a PS game called "LSD: Dream Emulator"
20:24:03 <Sgeo> It's actually extrodinarily boring.
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20:25:19 <fizzie> I think I saw a reference to that somewhere recently.
20:26:09 <olsner> that staring at goats movie is funny
20:26:18 <fizzie> I feel kinda ill when I see graphical glitches in computer games and such. (Also scared of encountering them in real life.) I wonder if this is common?
20:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, it's even funnier if you read the book and know which parts are actually completely true.
20:26:50 <olsner> graphical glitches in real life would be properly scary
20:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (i.e. everything that isn't actually part of the plot)
20:27:04 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: oh, is any of it true at all?
20:27:17 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I was supposed to do something, I cheated and now things got weird.
20:27:25 <Sgeo> fizzie, in that case, WorldsPlayer is not for you.
20:27:31 <Sgeo> Things get weird sometimes.
20:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, I'd honestly be hard-pressed to remember any of the crazy psy-ops stunts that weren't.
20:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The characters are largely fictionalised and frequently made from 2 or 3 amalgamated real people, but the experiments and everything were all real.
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20:29:23 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but when I see them in a computer, I get the feeling that it's only a matter of time there'll be some out of it, too.
20:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're seeing dead pixels you should see an optician, they can fix that.
20:30:40 <Sgeo> Maiko Girls Come Come Everybody.
20:30:48 <Sgeo> ^^the name of an object in this World.
20:30:54 <olsner> fizzie: sometimes when I'm watching things full screen on the monitor I'll try to make them even more full screen (full field of vision?)
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20:31:22 <olsner> but alas, the other setting is windowed
20:31:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Just, you know, generally. Things clipping through other things, or deforming grotesquely because of some kind of model mishap.
20:32:52 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: that book is now on my list of things to read
20:33:40 <fizzie> Or physics problems, things moving awfully fast or weirdly.
20:34:15 <Sgeo> fizzie, would weird geometry count?
20:34:52 <Sgeo> You go down a hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, you're nowhere near where you started
20:35:28 <fizzie> I don't know about that. It doesn't sound as bad.
20:36:39 <Sgeo> Oh, I think the only "scary" place in BowieWorld is the Garden.
20:36:54 <Sgeo> It's a bunch of disembodied hands that say weird things and fly up when you click them
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20:37:43 <fizzie> Also, is it just me that had real trouble handling the frankenturrets in Portal 2?
20:39:11 <fizzie> I'm glad it wasn't just me.
20:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And the noise, they made, I remember that was particularly awful.
20:40:13 <fizzie> I always had to throw them far away from me when letting go.
20:41:24 <Sgeo> It's rather easy to walk through walls in Worlds, but also something that needs to be done deliberalely.
20:41:37 <Sgeo> Some of the weirder things in the Worlds.com worlds only occur to people who walk through walls
20:41:42 <olsner> some people seem to think frankenturrets are cute
20:42:05 <fizzie> olsner: There are all kinds of freako-sickos in the world, certainly.
20:42:39 <Sgeo> For example: In AnimalHouse, if you venture onto the street from the front yard, you may be attacked by floating eyeballs, and end up in an attic.
20:42:50 <fizzie> "The developer commentary notes their withdrawing into a cube was initially just to make them be cubical when picked up, but it was so cute they added shaking animations and wide-eyed reactions to the turret to make the player sympathize with their plight."
20:42:55 <Sgeo> But the front yard is fenced in, can't get to the street from the front yard by walking normally.
20:43:22 <fizzie> I sympathize all right, but I was even more creeped out and tried to have as little to do with them as possible.
20:43:57 <Sgeo> The eyeballs got me.
20:44:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you're sure you don't want to get floating eyeballs to attack you?
20:44:28 <Sgeo> For some reason, this attic has the Venus de Milo
20:45:17 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, no. But you only see the nightmare if you walk through a wall, or a different nightmare if you head into the basement.
20:45:46 <Sgeo> And basement isn't that much of a nightmare, it's just creepy red with weird geometry.
20:46:14 <Sgeo> There's one part of it where you may end up seeing yourself.
20:49:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, just to be sure of something: You don't consider Brittney Spears to be scary, do you? Because there's a Brittney Spears world.
20:58:33 <Sgeo> There are definitely interesting non-scary places to explore
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21:31:08 <Sgeo> There's a class in worlds.jar called ArmyOfZombies.
21:32:41 <olsner> they should've obfuscated
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21:57:31 <kmc> the CEO and the chief technical architect just locked themselves in a conference room for an hour to figure out... what kind of trash cans to buy
22:00:16 <shachaf> kmc: Someone mentioned https://csawctf.poly.edu/ in another channel.
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23:03:03 <kmc> "Yeah, we've pondered creating a /usr/bin/python\r -> python symlink"
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23:47:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, does a Halloween-themed theme part count as a nightmare?
23:48:00 <Sgeo> Although I should note that there are clowns.
23:49:15 <Sgeo> The rides appear to move your camera, leaving your body behind.
23:55:04 <kmc> i think web dev is secretly a great field for programming language nerds
23:57:06 <kmc> FP techniques are widely accepted in Javascript, largely because they're the only way to abstract and stay sane
23:57:23 <kmc> and metaprogramming is also widely accepted, even if the forms it takes are somewhat nasty
23:57:46 <kmc> and the typical web project has code in a number of languages, so it's an easier sell to introduce one more
23:57:56 <kmc> compared to "this is a Java shop, why are you even considering using something that isn't Java"
23:58:12 <zzo38> JavaScript is not really such a bad programming language, but its use with web pages is pretty bad in my opinion.
23:58:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, this water ride cuts through FunHouse
23:59:00 <Sgeo> And goes inside a shark
23:59:02 <kmc> you can use whatever language you like on the backend
23:59:23 <kmc> and there are a lot of DSL-like things