00:00:26 <Sgeo> And there's a bit at the end where it takes you into a "spooky" room
00:00:33 <kwertii> kmc: the flipside of web dev is that the reason you can get away with all that is because you will be told, "this must be done in 2 weeks, we didn't spec it properly, we're already over budget, so we don't care how you make it work, just do it"
00:00:55 <kmc> that really depends on the company
00:03:11 <kwertii> sure, there's a lot of variance
00:04:07 <kmc> i'm not sure it's more common with web dev than other areas of programming
00:04:10 <kmc> i don't have the experience to know
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00:06:08 <kwertii> I think web dev is the most publicly visible (to non-technical people) segment of programming, and that tends to attract a whole lot of people and money who are utterly disinterested in technical details. If you have a spot at a good firm, it's fine, but if you're trying to freelance, there's a LOT of low-end work to wade through.
00:06:40 <kmc> yeah, i am not talking about freelancing
00:07:35 <kwertii> if we're going to say "it's a great field for language nerds if you're at a good firm"... well, that could apply to any field
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00:07:47 <kmc> not really
00:08:12 <kmc> a great embedded systems company might be a great place to work, but you won't get to use much of anything other than C
00:08:29 <kmc> looooooooool
00:08:42 <kwertii> sure, with some exceptions
00:09:10 <kwertii> but if you're writing video games or word processors or music sequencer apps, there's no reason you couldn't do so in <favorite language> if you were at an enlightened firm
00:09:21 <kmc> i'm saying web developers have greater freedom to choose language, and also better "typical" languages, than (say) kernel programmers, high-frequency traders, or enterprise business software developers
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00:10:06 <kmc> not that C is a bad language for kernel development (that's a different argument anyway), but it doesn't scratch that PL nerd itch
00:10:10 <kwertii> Perhaps I'm biased, since I'm a web developer who has been trying to convince people to do a project in Lisp for the better part of a decade now :)
00:11:00 <kwertii> the reply is always: "Sure, Lisp is cool and all, but if you get hit by a bus, who will pick up where you left off? Do it in Rails and we can find 5 million people tomorrow."
00:11:21 <kmc> that's a valid argument
00:11:57 <kwertii> a few tiers down from that, there's a whole mass of "let's hire overseas programmers to do it in PHP for $15 an hour" web dev
00:11:57 <kmc> but you still get to use ruby, javascript, and maybe C++, every day if you like
00:12:02 <itidus21> another variant of that argument might be, but if you start being annoying who will replace you when we fire you?
00:12:32 <itidus21> maybe "start being annoying" is wrong
00:12:33 <kmc> https://twitter.com/cperciva/status/247848282880106496
00:12:44 <kwertii> itidus21: well, no business should have a single point of failure. I agree with the principle.
00:13:05 <itidus21> kwertii: anyway i don't care about your employers >:)
00:13:41 <kmc> some businesses inevitably have a single point of failure
00:13:44 <kmc> startups have many
00:13:58 <kwertii> itidus21: wasn't asking you to care, not sure where you're going with that
00:14:29 <kwertii> kmc: of course. and the process of developing the business should include reducing the single points of failure to the greatest extent possible, to minimize risk for all involved
00:15:04 <kmc> yes and no
00:15:16 <kwertii> kmc: There are a few enlightened people in high freq trading. One I can think of off the top of my head, Jane Street Capital, works mainly in OCaml
00:15:19 <kmc> by starting a company or joining a startup, you are deliberately taking on risk
00:15:41 <kmc> i'm not comfortable calling the people who use the languages i like more "enlightened"
00:15:54 <kmc> my point is about flexibility, not about one language over another
00:16:16 <kwertii> whatever you want to call it :)
00:16:35 <kmc> i mean the most popular language in web dev is also one of the worst languages to ever become popular
00:17:37 <kwertii> taking on risk is inevitable, but there are many degrees of risk. a company built around <obscure language> is a lot riskier than a company built around C, PHP, or Ruby, all else being the same. it's just much harder to find staff who can comprehend obscure languages.
00:18:06 <kmc> you don't need to convince me of that
00:18:29 <kmc> my point about risk was a tangent from the PL discussion, i did not mean to imply that you should use the most obscure language for your startup
00:18:43 <kmc> (there are some benefits to using a somewhat obscure language, though, as paul graham pointed out)
00:18:55 <kmc> (dude's kind of a blowhard but he makes some good points from time to time)
00:19:33 <kwertii> if PG were right, there'd be a lot more startups built on Lisp, and there'd be VC firms specializing in Lisp. it seems that language choice is a rather minor factor in the massive number of variables that go into a startup, though.
00:19:44 <kmc> i agree with that too
00:20:00 <kmc> i'm talking about http://paulgraham.com/pypar.html
00:20:13 <kmc> which is not about lisp circa 2012 but about python circa 2004
00:20:22 <kwertii> yeah, I've read it, and most of the other pg essays
00:21:12 <kwertii> I was referring to the other essay where he talks about what a huge competitive advantage it was to be using Common Lisp at ViaWeb in the 90s
00:21:31 <kmc> yeah, that is massively over-fitted
00:21:56 <kmc> i'm sure that Lisp is a competitive advantage over vintage C++ for web dev
00:22:17 <itidus21> i guess that it could be painful for someone who can code in lisp well to be forced to code in c
00:22:36 <itidus21> and be daydreaming about what it would be like if they could use lisp
00:22:54 <kmc> and i think he is extrapolating too much from a success in a very early stage of the web
00:23:06 <kwertii> I'd love to have the resources to start a web shop on CL or Clojure. The average quality level of the programmers is much higher, as per the python essay. But it's much, much harder to scale. You (apparently) get a better return on capital with 100 mid-skill Ruby programmers than you'd get from the 40 Lisp programmers you could hire for that money.
00:23:17 <kmc> basically there were no good web dev languages at the time, and he kinda hacked one together in lisp (er, "on lisp"? ;)
00:23:31 <kmc> today there are many cood web dev languages, ergo no need for Lisp in particular
00:23:35 <kmc> many good*
00:23:51 <kwertii> plus it'll take you years to find 40 Lisp programmers, but you can get 100 mediocre Ruby programmers in a few months
00:24:22 <kmc> i think choosing Python for a company in 2004 would have been a really good idea
00:24:32 <kmc> not just because it was semi-obscure -- but because it became much popular within a few years
00:24:37 <kmc> that's the have your cake and eat it too scenario
00:24:54 <kwertii> that's what I'm thinking / hoping for Clojure over the next few years
00:25:16 <kmc> you start out with the high quality programmers, and then by the time you need to scale you can do so
00:25:29 <kmc> obviously this is tricky to time ;)
00:28:07 <kwertii> of still-used languages, only FORTRAN is older (if you're not counting assembly as a language)
00:29:26 <kmc> a lot of people learn a little tiny bit of "lisp"
00:29:31 <kmc> few use it for any real projects, though
00:30:15 <itidus21> maybe modern computer power will help
00:30:26 <kwertii> Clojure (a Lisp for the JVM) is starting to become popular
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00:31:55 <kwertii> I think the issue is that most programmers can't grasp what makes Lisp different from other languages. they just think it's an imperative language with a funny parentheses based syntax. so they say, "eh, so what" and move on.
00:32:13 <kmc> it annoys me to no end how people can't get past the parentheses
00:32:21 <kwertii> also, the range of libraries available for Common Lisp and Scheme has been quite poor compared to (say) Java or C.
00:32:38 <itidus21> maybe when enough time passes, someone will write a book to guide peopel
00:32:42 <kwertii> the CL community is openly hostile to newcomers, which doesn't help.
00:32:46 <itidus21> lisp hasnt been around long enough
00:32:58 <kmc> even the advocates of lisp focus way too much on syntax (omg Lisp has none!)
00:33:01 <kmc> which is a lie btw
00:33:09 <kmc> every special form constitutes syntax
00:33:33 <kmc> is it (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) or (let (x 3 y 4) ...)? well, CL and Scheme differ on this point, and that is a syntactic difference
00:33:42 <itidus21> oh, open hostility to newcomers... now this seems to be more likely part of the cause for lisp obscurity.. maybe they enjoy obscurity
00:34:20 <itidus21> i dont think a world in which lisp was coopted by the mainstream would be much fun for anyone
00:34:25 <shachaf> kmc: Is it foo(name=blah, contents=blam) or foo(title=blah, body=blam)?
00:34:44 <shachaf> Library X and library Y in Python differ on that, and that's a syntactic difference.
00:34:52 <itidus21> foo(name(blah) (contents(blah)))
00:34:56 <kwertii> kmc: in that sense, every macro you write introduces new syntax. I think the point of the "no syntax" argument is rather that everything is an S-expression
00:35:01 <shachaf> Anyway that's a silly argument.
00:35:25 <shachaf> You can define syntax in a way that lisp has a lot of it, or not a lot of it, and it won't change anything about lisp.
00:35:35 <kwertii> kmc: as opposed to the 20-odd special syntax arrangements in Algol-derived languages - foo + bar; versus foo++; versus foo(bar); etc
00:35:54 <kmc> kwertii: sure but S-expressions are only one of the layers of what i'd call syntax
00:36:09 <kmc> if Lisp is only S-expressions then Lisp is only a data language (like XML) and not a programming language
00:36:16 <kmc> you have to say what the token 'defun' means and what the token 'let' means and such
00:36:20 <kwertii> kmc: I'd call those things you mentioned "semantics" rather than syntax
00:36:20 <kmc> shachaf is right of course
00:36:40 <kmc> see i think the difference between (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) and (let (x 3 y 4) ...) is obviously a syntactic one
00:37:51 <kwertii> kmc: totally semantics. the syntax of both is just atoms and lists.
00:38:15 <kmc> this is an arbitrary difference of opinion
00:38:16 <shachaf> The syntax of booth "foo + bar" and "foo++" is just characters!
00:39:00 <kwertii> kmc: it's arbitrary in some sense, but these terms have been kind of well defined in linguistics and comp sci already
00:39:06 <kwertii> though you're right, the line is not always clear
00:39:20 <kmc> right, but many computer scientists include abstract syntax in the definition of syntax
00:39:36 <kwertii> shachaf: yeah, and that's why you need ridiculously complicated parsers to tokenize a language like that and make ... an S-tree graph out of it
00:40:02 <shachaf> kwertii: I think "C syntax -> AST" is a much simpler transformation than "AST -> optimized machine code"
00:41:09 <shachaf> Anyway this is a silly argument, like I said.
00:41:11 <kwertii> point is, C/whatever-language syntax is just a set of transformations on an s-exp tree. if you call those transformations "the syntax of C", then you can see where people come up with "Lisp has no syntax" (which isn't strictly true, but that's where it comes from)
00:41:26 <kmc> it's all just functions on the natural numbers
00:41:30 <shachaf> If you want to say that lisp "has no syntax", fine. If you want to say that it "has syntax", fine.
00:41:53 <itidus21> what if i want to say it has syntax and syntax?
00:42:04 <shachaf> You can say that too, itidus21.
00:42:17 <shachaf> itidus21 has a special exemption such that he/she/it can say whatever he/she/it wants.
00:42:25 <kmc> i would say that Lisp has three layers of syntax where most languages have two (lexical and parse tree)
00:42:40 * shachaf should dedicate his life to the noble cause of converting arguments about words to either nothing or arguments about meaning.
00:42:56 <kmc> in particular, people like syntax to be something static, and reserve "semantics" for runtime behavior
00:43:20 <kmc> and I know that CL does have some notion of compile time versus run time
00:43:55 <kwertii> shachaf: you plan to get a philosophy degree? :)
00:44:06 <kwertii> shachaf: I have one. it's not worth the trouble
00:44:13 <kmc> it seems weird to say that we have no idea whether we should write (let ((x 3)) ...) or (let (x 3) ...) until runtime
00:44:29 <shachaf> kwertii: Philosophists spend way too much time arguing about things that aren't meaning. :-(
00:44:39 <kmc> shachaf: I think everything is really arguments about words
00:44:48 <shachaf> kwertii: Raymond Smullyan is a good philosophist, though.
00:44:55 <kwertii> shachaf: they spend plenty of time bickering over trivial distinctions of meaning between obscure technical terms that only 50 people in the entire world care about.
00:45:00 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
00:45:15 <kwertii> shachaf: I love Raymond Smullyan! Never met anyone who's heard of him, though, and Taoism is laughed out of the room in most academic phil depts in the US.
00:45:26 <itidus21> i downloaded some of his books
00:45:28 <kmc> now you have met at least two of us
00:45:39 <itidus21> i found him on the wiki page of american taoists
00:45:41 <shachaf> kwertii: I don't care for philosophy departments much.
00:45:52 <shachaf> kmc: Have you heard of Raymond Smullyan from a source other than me?
00:45:54 <kwertii> shachaf: me, neither. thus, I work as a programmer rather than in a phil dept
00:46:04 <kmc> shachaf: yes, from _The Mind's I_
00:46:08 <kmc> though i think i forgot the name
00:46:24 <shachaf> Especially the Raymond Smullyan parts. :-)
00:47:25 <itidus21> http://oi49.tinypic.com/35i0p5s.jpg
00:47:36 <itidus21> this is my (unread) smullyan books
00:48:02 <shachaf> kmc: You should read some of Smullyan's books!
00:48:15 <kmc> i suck at reading
00:48:29 <shachaf> Smullyan's books are so much fun to read, though.
01:04:07 <Sgeo> Worlds stores a file with a silly encryption system
01:04:20 <Sgeo> Although, admittedly, I only broke it with a Java decompiler
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01:17:00 * kmc high fives Sgeo
01:17:14 <kmc> i love breaking silly encryption with a java decompiler
01:17:25 <kmc> 420 break silly encryption with a java decompiler every day
01:28:50 <Sgeo> As in, just reading what the algorithm is
01:29:04 <Sgeo> Which I guess makes it not really encryption
01:29:13 <Sgeo> More of ... an obfuscation
01:29:20 <Sgeo> There's no key.
01:34:14 <kmc> this is how i cheated at yahoo games poker in high school
01:41:12 <shachaf> Kid, we only got one question. Have you ever been arrested?
01:43:13 <kmc> it's not real money :/
01:43:22 <kmc> trollcoins only
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03:26:51 <itidus21> another interesting american taoist on the wiki page was ursula something, who wrote some books the earthsea something
03:37:30 <kmc> very specific
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04:00:05 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how I feel about ClojureScript macros being Clojure
04:00:17 <Sgeo> It's kind of weird, having one language at runtime and a different at compile-time
04:00:20 <Sgeo> Sort of un-lispy
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04:24:16 <Sgeo> This class provides a public static... I guess factory is the best term.
04:24:29 <Sgeo> But one of the overloads just throws an exception
04:24:44 <Sgeo> Oh, no, I misread ut
04:27:05 <kmc> scheme also has one language at runtime and another for macros, sort of
04:27:26 <kmc> it has several languages for macros, and you can use regular scheme in a cumbersome way
04:33:20 <zzo38> It has several languages for macros?
04:39:17 <kmc> syntax-rules and syntax-case
04:39:55 <kmc> i think syntax-case is not in r5rs, but is commonly implemented and there is a portable implementation of it
04:39:58 <kmc> or something
04:43:17 <zzo38> What is it called if an assembler (which includes macros) has a section which can compile code into memory and then it is executed by an emulator before (or while) the output file of the section for file output is written?
04:44:40 <kmc> it's called madness
04:46:03 <shachaf> Mad, call I it; for, to define true madness, what is't but to be nothing else but mad?
04:47:06 <kmc> There is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity.
04:47:47 <zzo38> I have read of a "pathocircle" which is a circle with one point missing
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05:51:20 <zzo38> You say assembler like that is madness? Well, the assembler I use to write Famicom programs is like that. So, perhaps it is madness, too.
05:55:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Did you write said Famicom assembler?
05:56:16 <pikhq> That'd be a unique feature in an assembler, I think.
06:00:46 <kallisti> Fun fact, on May 1st 2012, Sweden made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-HO-MET illegal.
06:01:41 <kallisti> it's also probably illegal under the US Federal Analog Act, when bought or sold for human consumption.
06:01:55 <kallisti> but not any international law.
06:05:41 <kmc> i took that once
06:05:51 <zzo38> pikhq: It is MagicKit assembler, although I have added various features and fixed various bugs, including that one I mentioned above. I also added macros to check if it is on the first or last pass, and some other things too.
06:09:19 <zzo38> Therefore my program is "Unofficial MagicKit".
06:11:24 <zzo38> I also was thinking about custom mappers.
06:11:31 <shachaf> kmc was taking 4-HO-MET before it was illegal.
06:12:32 <kmc> kallisti: ooc, why do you mention 4-HO-MET?
06:13:35 <zzo38> One feature I have added is NES 2.0 headers. Someone wanted me to make NES 2.0 headers the default, but I don't want to.
06:14:29 <kmc> kallisti: have you seen http://ugcs.net/~keegan/complexity.html
06:17:35 <zzo38> Features I intend to add but not yet have done so, are UNIF format, DotFami format, character encoding translation tables, and a few other things.
06:19:12 <shachaf> kmc: When does a drug stop being experimental?
06:21:50 <zzo38> I have an idea in the Dungeons&Dragons game. Some assassins try to kill me, and I have a correspond spell to communicate with anyone regardless of distance, so I have idea: During the day time when it is light, I can use this spell to tell them it is dark.
06:26:10 <kmc> shachaf: did you know it is the 40th birthday of BART?
06:26:15 <kmc> there are banners up at stations and everything
06:26:25 <kmc> the system actually opened on 9/11/1972 but i guess they wanted to avoid that date
06:27:09 <zzo38> My cjb.net account seems broken
06:28:52 <zzo38> I think my account expired but now I don't know how to create an account.
06:29:39 <shachaf> kmc: Nope, haven't been to SF in a while.
06:35:37 <kmc> i guess EPA is pretty far from the end of BART
06:37:46 <shachaf> The way I usually get to SFO is Caltrain to Millbrae and then BART.
06:38:58 <kmc> SFO BART is ridiculous
06:39:14 <kmc> they should have just extended the SFO people mover to Milbrae
06:40:46 <kmc> using big money airport tax funds to do so
06:41:22 <kmc> also they should extend PATH to Newark Airport
06:41:51 <kallisti> kmc: No I haven't. have you read TiHKAL?
06:42:15 <kmc> the link is a quiz "Complexity class or experimental drug"
06:42:21 <kmc> i have read PiHKAL and parts of TiHKAL i think
06:42:52 <shachaf> Oh, I was thinking TiHKAL was a CS book.
06:43:03 * shachaf is clearly not very good at that quiz.
06:43:21 <kmc> Types in Higher-Kinded Algebraic Logic
06:43:56 <itidus21> zzo38: tell who it is dark, the assassins?
06:50:46 <kallisti> 06:42 < kmc> the link is a quiz "Complexity class or experimental drug"
06:51:27 <kallisti> (which doesn't actually exist)
06:51:52 <kallisti> Christian upgringing. it's in the lexicon.
06:58:19 <itidus21> zzo38: but what if they don't believe you
07:01:46 <zzo38> I thought of that too
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07:40:13 <zzo38> Account creation on cjb.net seems disabled, so I asked someone else to make a subdomain of one of theirs; they cannot do so, so instead we made up a new domain name: zzo38computer.org
07:46:55 <zzo38> I rarely write HTML
07:48:33 <Sgeo> I think I like Hiccup
07:49:55 <itidus21> <html><head><title>This Is My Post</title></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><h1>I don't know hiccup.</h1><br/><img src="shrug.jpg" /></body></html>
07:50:38 <itidus21> don't you just feel trolled when you see html code?
07:51:44 <itidus21> like theres something evil about posting it
07:51:50 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg}]]])
07:52:10 <Sgeo> (comment "I only think that's correct, I do not know for certain
07:52:19 <Sgeo> Oh, forgot to close a string
07:52:26 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg"}]]])
07:52:44 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post"]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg"}]]])
07:57:52 <Sgeo> Well, ok, so I don't know hiccup that well
07:58:19 <Sgeo> That img could be replaced with (image "shrug.jpg")
08:03:07 -!- UnknownCharacter has joined.
08:06:18 <HackEgo> UNKNOWNCHARACTER: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
08:07:20 <itidus21> it makes for grandoise welcomings
08:08:46 <itidus21> im not sure if there are any girls here
08:11:59 <UnknownCharacter> a story about how i fell in love... and a few years later died in a pool of blood and tears
08:13:08 <UnknownCharacter> yes, im dead but my spirit remained. somehow I am able to chat through the internet.
08:13:37 <UnknownCharacter> it was nice at the beginning. All the promises, the innocense, the freedom.
08:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the beginning of being dead or the beginning of being in love
08:16:38 <UnknownCharacter> I found out that she didn't love me anymore. That she never really did. Confused and without any desire to do anything but let out the blackest of emotions out of my heart.
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08:19:22 <UnknownCharacter> with the rain covering my tears... i sat down on some stairs leading to a parking lot
08:21:43 <UnknownCharacter> Devastate I was. Lost in my thoughts. Feeling an immense pain in my chest. Growing tighter as I thought about her grin
08:21:51 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: please let the man tell his story.
08:23:26 <UnknownCharacter> remembering her indifference. It hurted ... it twisted my insides.
08:24:18 <UnknownCharacter> I knew also that if I did what I was planning on doing. I may stop having a heart
08:25:32 <UnknownCharacter> lol... okay, I didn't kill myself... but i wish i had thought of that.
08:25:54 <itidus21> well how does the story land you here?
08:26:33 <itidus21> i mean.. can you guide the story through to arriving at #esoteric ?
08:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> he thought it was the other sort of esoteric and hoped he could get spiritual guidance
08:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> best way to deal with heavies is a spy or sniper, don't let anyone tell you different
08:28:11 <itidus21> it does seem that way.. he hasn't made any references to brainfuck, lisp, turing, or haskell
08:29:27 <UnknownCharacter> So, I decided to break all the promises that I did to her, Destroy all of our dreams, just forget she ever existed.
08:30:02 <UnknownCharacter> not much emotion said there cause at this point... at felt indifferent as well.
08:30:36 <UnknownCharacter> It haunts me. Makes me wonder if what I lived that night was how I imagine it to be.
08:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> so... to deal with your suicidal thoughts as a result of a bitter and traumatising breakup, you came to a channel about weird programming languages
08:31:54 <UnknownCharacter> you'd never know what truly happen... my emotions have clouded my memory. So, id never know either.
08:32:12 <Phantom_Hoover> couldn't you talk to a psychiatrist, or one of those helplines they have?
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08:33:45 <oerjan> sorry, my unicode setup isn't good enough to handle unknown characters
08:34:19 <UnknownCharacter> Let your wonder guide you in finding the mysteries and the unknown.
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08:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this channel isn't about the other sort of esoteric btw
08:35:58 <itidus21> i wonder if he realizes what this channel is about
08:36:18 <itidus21> i realize it, but i just ignore the purpose of this channel
08:36:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it _does_ say "programming language" in plain text, that's better than normal
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08:41:22 <oerjan> why is the world unusually noisy today :(
08:41:58 <oerjan> or rather, why is the _low_ noise unusually annoying
08:48:28 <Sgeo> I was going to ask if someone pointed him to a hotline, but I see it was mentioned
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12:03:00 <oerjan> i fixed your fibonacci a little
12:05:29 <fizzie> Before fixing, was it so that F_{n-2} + F_{n-1} was *almost* but not quite F_n?
12:06:47 <oerjan> you could say that a couple of while loops had their tests reversed.
12:07:43 <oerjan> which caused things not to happen at the right time, and it _looked_ like it essentially started turning into a fork bomb.
12:08:29 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i had four cars by the time i decided something had to be wrong :P
12:09:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah I guess I should've added comments
12:09:49 <Arc_Koen> left column is supposed to be the "smaller" number, and right column is the bigger
12:10:07 <Arc_Koen> left column is added to a clone of right column, then destroyed
12:10:28 <Arc_Koen> and then the clone becomes the new right column, and the original right column becomes the left column
12:10:31 <oerjan> i did figure it out eventually, i realized it made little sense for a loop to the left that only ever went at most once around
12:10:47 <Arc_Koen> things is I had started doing the opposite - right column added to left column
12:11:08 <Arc_Koen> I changed so that the smaller one got added, because then it's more efficient
12:11:16 <Arc_Koen> (since it takes less time to add a smaller number)
12:13:24 <Arc_Koen> if I were to implement it I guess I would allow function names to use the separator as a third letter, cause two-letter names don't mean much
12:13:57 <oerjan> two letters should be enough for everyone!
12:16:03 <fizzie> One letter seems to be generally speaking enough for mathematicians, so two sounds like plenty.
12:16:07 <fizzie> (What language is this?)
12:25:09 <Arc_Koen> well when I program in ocaml, most variables are only one letter
12:25:16 <Arc_Koen> but those are the "small" variables
12:25:48 <Arc_Koen> variables that get used a lot (because they are global, or whatever) I give meaningful names
12:26:43 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: the option I forgot about in the talk page, in case of multiple choices: make the car continue straight
12:27:19 <Arc_Koen> that is, as long as it can go straight, it goes straight
12:27:39 <Arc_Koen> only if an instruction tells it to turn, of if there is a wall ahead, will it try the other ways
12:28:02 <Arc_Koen> but in this case if there is a T intersection, with turn right and turn left available but not go straight, then it's still blocked
12:29:42 <Arc_Koen> and if the car is forced into a wall by a direction or a splitter, I guess it would either result in an error, or the car would actually driver over the wall
12:30:13 <Arc_Koen> because the purpose of walls is to guide the car when it has no directions, so I guess they shouldn't matter when the car actually has a direction
12:31:18 <oerjan> well i don't think a car should actually _get_ through the wall.
12:32:12 <Arc_Koen> well I guess it would result in an error at the next tick, when the car tries to execute the instruction it is currently on
12:32:38 <Arc_Koen> or it would destroy the car, but in this case holes are kind of pointless
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12:49:00 <fizzie> Purely going on movie physics, it sounds like the car should explode.
12:55:26 <Arc_Koen> when I was little I had this video game where you could destroy a wall, stand where it used to be, save the game, shut it off, then on again, and the wall would be back there... with you on top of it
12:56:17 <Arc_Koen> and then the wall basically acted as an empty cell as long as you were standing on it (that is, once you get off it, you can't get on again)
12:57:15 <Arc_Koen> (so, you can't walk into a wall, but you're allowed to "already" be on it
12:58:21 <Arc_Koen> I think we had a law like that in france... underages were allowed to smoke, but not to buy cigarettes
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13:02:55 <fizzie> It's possible that our current law re alcohol is similar. It's illegal to sell or give the stuff to minors, but I don't think it's illegal for them to actually possess or drink it. (Could be wrong here.)
13:05:09 <Arc_Koen> may be the same here - though I guess the policy when minors are caught drinking is "call the parents"
13:08:27 <fizzie> Oh, seems that possession and transportation is also illegal for them.
13:08:34 <fizzie> But I'm sure there's something else that's similar.
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13:11:24 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: yeah i prefer that sort of coding
13:12:13 <fizzie> Also I sort of thought that our age limit for "strong" (> 22 vol%) drinks was 21, but seems that it's 20.
13:12:13 <Arc_Koen> it works well with functional programming, I guess
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13:13:14 <itidus21> i think its a better game in fjidjiojeiojdewiojdiewjdiwejdiwejdiwjio why does my mom have to check up on me and leave my door ajar then wash her hands loudly
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13:15:09 <oerjan> dammit nvg's python version is too old to run jolvering >_<
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13:15:44 <itidus21> half-life 3: the anxiety transferance gun
13:16:58 <itidus21> gabe newell is a cyborg at this point
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15:34:14 <atriq> Today I thought of a brilliant way to obfuscate haskell
15:34:26 <atriq> Rebindable Syntax, Overloaded Strings
15:34:48 <atriq> fromInteger _ a _ = a; fromRational _ x y z = x z (y z); fromString _ = unsafeCoerce
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15:41:01 <atriq> This lets you do crazy things
15:41:09 <atriq> Including computationally everything
15:41:25 <atriq> I think fromString _ = fix also works
15:45:51 <atriq> Then with 0, 0.0, and "0", you can do ANYTHING
15:46:12 <atriq> And some other things
15:52:35 <atriq> NOW TO ABUSE THIS AND MAKE #haskell PANIC
16:02:51 <atriq> Ackermann function?
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17:39:43 <kmc> atriq: wow
17:39:54 <kmc> you are a maniac
17:39:57 <kmc> i tip my hat to you
17:41:58 <olsner> hmm, how does something like 0"0" lex in haskell? you might not need any whitespace even
17:43:45 <olsner> you probably need parens for grouping though
17:46:37 <nortti> do anyone of you happen to have xorg shape extension header file?
17:47:12 <nortti> my system doesn't seem to have it
17:48:39 <nortti> and X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:49:20 <kmc> i have /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:50:49 <nortti> can those be downloaded separately from somewhere?
17:51:23 <atriq> olsner, you don't need a space
17:51:30 <nortti> because I'm not going to compile xorg on this macgine
17:51:43 <NihilistDandy> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5073040/how-to-find-x11-extensions-xtest-h
17:52:38 <nortti> I have that package installed
17:53:42 <Lumpio-> matti@konata:~$ pacman -Qo /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:53:42 <Lumpio-> /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h is owned by libxtst 1.2.1-1
17:53:46 <Lumpio-> Maybe you should install Arch
17:54:17 <nortti> if my computer had enough ram to boot the installer :/
17:55:12 <Lumpio-> But if your computer can't run the live environment, you should consider buying a new one.
17:55:40 <nortti> it runs slitaz fast ennough
17:56:00 <nortti> well slitaz without x11 and much of busybox replaced with toybox but still
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17:57:57 <Lumpio-> What do you actually /do/ with such a computer
17:58:48 <nortti> well I program, irc, surf web, listen to music, play video, play touhou, tweak
17:59:11 <nortti> and of course try to squeeze last bit of performance out of it
17:59:35 <Lumpio-> You play touhou on a computer that can't even run X11?
17:59:42 <Lumpio-> Or were you just talking about running everything off RAM
18:00:06 <nortti> I just usually don't do it as it slows down the computer
18:00:36 <nortti> also I only play pc98 touhous. I like those more compared to windows touhous
18:01:01 <nortti> also if my computer can't run x11 why would I need the header files for x11?
18:01:02 <Lumpio-> ...I bet you don't like them just because they need more RAM
18:01:34 <Lumpio-> I dunno, for all I know you might have a dumb terminal to act as the server or whatnot
18:01:40 <Lumpio-> I wouldn't be surprised if you did!
18:01:57 <nortti> no. I liked pc98 touhous more even when I had computer with enough ram to play them smoothly without any kind of hacks
18:02:19 <Lumpio-> What did you do to your computer!?
18:03:11 <nortti> nothing. the hd controller just broke
18:05:03 <nortti> and this is upgrade to the machine I used before this but after my ibook g4 broke
18:05:13 <nortti> it had 100MHz P1 and 40MB of RAM
18:06:47 <nortti> worked pretty well but I wouldn't switch back to it unless I had
18:07:01 <nortti> video playback was terribly slow
18:09:01 <nortti> oh. almost forgot. I also run two instances of my ircbot and my web server on backgtound
18:09:50 <Lumpio-> My crappy cell phone from ten years ago probably had more megahertz and megabytes than that
18:10:18 <nortti> nokia 9300 has same amount of ram
18:10:21 <Lumpio-> oh wait, yours has more memory I think.
18:10:42 <Lumpio-> But the venerable N-GAGE ran at 104MHz
18:10:59 <nortti> and something like iphone 3g has same amount of meghertz
18:11:23 <nortti> oh you were talking about that P1 computer and not my main computer
18:11:42 <Lumpio-> What's the specs on your main computer then
18:12:02 <Lumpio-> And that can't run Arch's live environment?
18:12:54 <nortti> almost every distro requires at least 128MB nowadays
18:13:59 <Lumpio-> I dunno if the wiki's up to date but it says 64MB minimum on one page.
18:14:29 <nortti> well arch cd ran out of memory when it was starting up x11
18:14:53 <nortti> it did that automaticaly
18:15:07 <Lumpio-> wtf did you download exactly
18:15:31 <Lumpio-> The main Arch media is just for installation and it boots into a root shell
18:15:49 <Lumpio-> There used to be an "installer" but it was character-based
18:16:06 <Lumpio-> Also burning CDs sucks, I prefer USB memory
18:16:25 <nortti> well this thing has usb 1.1 and can't boot directly from it
18:17:40 <Lumpio-> All the more reason to get a new computer
18:17:42 <fizzie> Slackware 3.4 has a special LOWMEM.TXT for machines that have 4 megabytes or RAM or less.
18:17:44 <Lumpio-> Optical media is obsolete to me.
18:17:47 <fizzie> It's slightly old, though.
18:19:43 <fizzie> I can't recall which computer I had when I was installing that thing. It was either the 486sx/33 with 8M of memory, or the p233mmx with something ridiculous (64M? 256M!? maybe 64M...) of memory.
18:21:26 <kmc> nortti: you can download the -dev .deb and extract it
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18:28:46 <nortti> fizzie: is 64M ridicilous?
18:30:04 <fizzie> I just recall it felt like some really big number. So maybe it was the 256M.
18:30:06 <nortti> Lumpio-: can I replace all the gnu just in arch with busybox alternatives?
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18:33:56 <pikhq> If I just trim down the kernel a bit, I could *totally* have a Linux system for you running in 4 megs of RAM.
18:34:04 <pikhq> (warning: do *not* run the compiler. Ever.)
18:34:21 <nortti> or just use the updated linux 0.0.1 from 2008
18:34:22 <kmc> not even tcc?
18:34:48 <nortti> does ack work with linux?
18:35:43 <nortti> with ack I refer to ack compiler, not that grep replacement
18:36:12 <nortti> it runs nicely on my minix 1.5 box with 2MB of RAM
18:36:23 <nortti> or another option is really old 1.x gcc
18:37:50 <pikhq> kmc: tcc would work.
18:38:00 <pikhq> kmc: I'm using gcc because tcc won't build Linux.
18:38:35 <nortti> doesn't tcc use more than 4MB?
18:38:50 <nortti> pikhq: yes it will. linux 2.4
18:39:45 <pikhq> nortti: That was heavily patched, and I'm using 3.0 anyways. :)
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18:40:14 <Jafet> alias ld='swapon /dev/fd0;ld'
18:40:39 <olsner> put the swap on a network drive or something
18:41:01 <pikhq> Still, busybox will run *happily* in a meg of RAM.
18:41:13 <pikhq> Assuming a sane libc, of course.
18:42:27 <pikhq> It's small, but blatantly non-conformant in several areas.
18:42:28 <kmc> Jafet: o_o
18:42:33 <kmc> i once used swap over NFS
18:43:07 <pikhq> It's also honestly not *that* much smaller than musl.
18:43:15 <nortti> pikhq: is bionic sane :P
18:43:42 <pikhq> musl is ~3 times as much dietlibc, but that's largely because musl offers many functions that dietlibc doesn't.
18:43:57 <pikhq> (and if you don't use those functions, they aren't in your binary when static linked anyways)
18:44:35 <nortti> how can someone break libc so badly
18:45:55 <lambdabot> https://github.com/lispmeister/libgreat
18:46:11 <kmc> bionic isn't really supposed to be a libc right
18:46:31 <kmc> it is a userspace library to help in the writing of dalvik and other android system stuff
18:46:36 <kmc> which bears some resemblence to a libc
18:46:51 <olsner> I think bionic is the libc used by ndk/jni code on android
18:47:15 <kmc> yeah but ndk code is supposed to be mostly computation and not system stuff
18:47:23 <kmc> i don't think they advertise it as a full POSIX / C compliant environment
18:47:57 <olsner> well, does anyone advertise as that?
18:49:36 <pikhq> kmc: It's not a full POSIX / C environment, but there's no real reason it shouldn't be, if not strictly compliant, at least close...
18:49:42 <Sgeo> Is Linux not POSIX compliant? I'm vaguely aware it's not certified as such, or something
18:49:54 <pikhq> kmc: Except that Google only cares about having enough of a libc that Dalvik runs.
18:50:09 <Jafet> POSIX isn't completely linux compliant
18:50:14 <nortti> Sgeo: wikipedia says it isn't
18:50:37 <pikhq> ... And they have a strict no-GPL-in-userspace policy, making use of extant Linux libcs a fucking pain.
18:50:58 <pikhq> (well, now that musl's MIT licensed they could use that, but that wasn't an option way-back-when, and switching libcs is still a damned pain.)
18:51:20 <Sgeo> no-GPL-in-usespace? what?
18:51:38 <nortti> so they have their broken toolbox
18:51:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Linux itself cannot be POSIX compliant, but I'm pretty sure it supports enough functionality that a POSIX environment could be had reasonably.
18:52:00 <pikhq> I *think* musl might actually be, if you assume a set of POSIX utils?
18:52:16 <pikhq> Heck, I think glibc might be POSIX compliant modulo weird-ass edge cases.
18:53:11 <nortti> maybe it is because gnu dd automaticaly assumes 1024b block size instead of 512b
18:53:34 <kmc> POSIX_ME_HARDER
18:53:37 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait, getopt.
18:53:54 <pikhq> You need to force some environment flags down glibc's throat for getopt to conform.
18:54:15 <fizzie> POSIXLY_CORRECT does some of the things.
18:54:20 <pikhq> There's probably other similar breakage.
18:54:38 <pikhq> And I'd bet solidly on there being bugs in pthreads.
18:54:38 <fizzie> Like enables the 512-byte blocks.
18:54:57 <pikhq> Just because pthreads are somewhat complex, and more so in glibc.
18:56:21 <kmc> "somewhat"
18:56:42 <pikhq> musl pthreads are a mere 10k. :)
18:58:02 <pikhq> http://git.musl-libc.org/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi?url=musl/tree/src/thread/sem_open.c being the most complex chunk of source in it.
18:58:23 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere had run the (freely available) PCTS on some of these things, though. (At least some old versions are freely-freely available. VSX-PCTS2003 "is available for no fee to organizations submitting products for certification", which might not quite count.)
18:59:20 <pikhq> POSIX Conformance Test Suite.
19:02:43 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that's only for POSIX 2003...
19:03:01 <pikhq> musl doesn't even pretend to conform to old standard versions.
19:03:06 <Sgeo> What is POSIX-compliant these days, such that there's a POSIX 2003?
19:03:22 <atriq> In 2003, I turned 7.
19:03:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: POSIX 2008 is the latest version.
19:03:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, are there any POSIX 2008 compliant things out there? Maybe the BSDs?
19:04:58 <pikhq> Certified as such, I dunno.
19:05:00 <fizzie> According to http://get.posixcertified.ieee.org/docs/testsuites.html the only test suites are for 2003.
19:05:12 <pikhq> Actually compliant? Quite possibly.
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19:31:56 <atriq> I swear I've done this before
19:39:10 <atriq> I have done this many times before...
19:39:57 <atriq> Or at least forget to save things
19:40:44 <atriq> Where can I get one of these brains
19:41:04 <olsner> you ingest them and thus gain their powers
19:41:04 <atriq> Anyway, I'm making a predecessor function in SK calculus
19:42:06 <olsner> ooh, numbered churches
19:42:37 <atriq> Hexham has too many churches
19:42:44 <shachaf> What kind of Church numbers?
19:43:02 <atriq> \fx.x, \fx.fx, \fx.f(fx), etc
19:44:02 <shachaf> What the predecessor of \fx.x?
19:45:08 <olsner> unless you consider that cheating, there's an implementation on the wikipedia page for church numerals
19:45:25 <atriq> That is not cheating at all
19:45:40 <atriq> Except that's in the lambda calculus
19:45:51 <atriq> Not the SK combinator calculus
19:45:58 <olsner> translating that to SK is a trivial exercise
19:46:01 <oerjan> atriq: there's an implementation hidden in the unlambda deadfish >:)
19:46:16 <atriq> olsner, it's a really tedious exercise
19:46:22 <oerjan> somewhere close to the ?d , presumably
19:49:40 <oerjan> it _might_ be precisely the lines strictly between the lines of the ?d and the ?o, but no guarantee
19:50:37 <oerjan> hm is ``s``s`ks ``s`k`s`ks ``s`k`s`kk i `ki
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19:53:27 <JaBoJa> Are there any esoteric markup languages?
19:54:15 <atriq> JaBoJa, not as far as I am aware
19:54:42 <HackEgo> JaBoJa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:55:06 <atriq> I tried to make one once, didn't get very far
19:56:01 <atriq> Basically a series of instructions about putting things in boxes
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20:05:04 <HackEgo> kenyerlin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:07:02 <atriq> oerjan, that appears to be increment
20:07:36 <oerjan> yes, i just finished checking
20:08:02 <oerjan> atriq: that means the lines i mentioned, which are in the corresponding spot for ?d, should be decrement
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20:17:00 <Sgeo> I wonder if I'm allowed to like the Clojure ecosystem, not directly because of its access to Java libraries, but because its access to Java libraries brought other people over, and those people made nice elegant Clojure libraries.
20:21:47 <oerjan> yes, but you're not allowed to meta-ponder it like that.
20:22:00 * oerjan crawls back under rock
20:23:48 <Sgeo> Apparently, #clojure thinks of me as the annoying monad person. And one person says it's because I complain without actually taking action to fix anything.
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20:27:00 <oerjan> kenyerlin: no hablo español
20:30:49 <oerjan> most of us speak english here
20:34:06 <pikhq> I'm not sure, but I think the majority might actually be non-native English speakers.
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20:34:36 <olsner> what language do they speak in Hexham?
20:34:48 <pikhq> Hexhammish. Clearly.
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20:39:33 <zzo38> Update your links (if you have any) to my computer! My domain name has changed from zzo38computer.cjb.net to zzo38computer.org
20:40:01 <oerjan> zzo38: i used the external links search page to fix some more on the wiki
20:40:21 <fizzie> Somehow it looks immediately more professional when it has a top-level name right after it.
20:40:54 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, thanks. I tried to use that
20:41:06 <zzo38> Note this includes all protocols.
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20:53:31 <shachaf> kmc: There're slides/videos for nominolo's GHC JIT thing, it looks like.
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21:11:03 <ais523> huh, Slashdot's owners have just been bought out
21:13:42 <ais523> they're the same owners :)
21:14:01 <ais523> but Slashdot is still vaguely relevant, whereas Sourceforge isn't really
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21:32:02 <fizzie> ais523: Hey now, I just got a new "project of the month is this and that" email from them.
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