00:02:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I think you can make up something similar to the quote operator from muriel
00:03:12 <Arc_Koen> for instance, if you use two characters operators, you can make quotes that are not infinite loop like so:
00:04:13 <Arc_Koen> erk, the line started with / and got eaten by the irc client
00:04:39 <Arc_Koen> /OP/QuotedO.P//.//Some text that contains OP
00:05:07 <Arc_Koen> unfortunately / and \ are only one-character
00:05:55 <Arc_Koen> but maybe I can work with made-up two-char operators, with the replace-them-with-/-\ thingy part of the thing that's quined
00:09:10 <oerjan> that might work. but now you need to consider you want to replace them only in _one_ of the quined copies...
00:09:53 <Arc_Koen> now I understand what you menat
00:10:23 <Arc_Koen> actually I do not think that will be so much of a problem
00:11:08 <oerjan> perhaps, but i doubt you end up with a simpler solution.
00:11:09 <Arc_Koen> I'm not experienced with quining so every three seconds my brain resets and I need to re-understand how quining is done again
00:11:51 <Arc_Koen> (and three seconds is not a lot to write a slashes program!!)
00:13:00 <Arc_Koen> actually I'm facing ridiculous problems right now
00:13:53 <Arc_Koen> for instance "if the only difference between 0 and 1 is that 1 is 1, then I need to do something like GGAGG/1/infinite looping of printing one/A"
00:14:16 <Arc_Koen> "but to actually print 1 in the main loop, I need to have the symbol 1 part of the loop code"
00:14:35 <Arc_Koen> "so the outermost substitution will be an infinite loop"
00:14:57 <Arc_Koen> well I guess that's a stupid issue and I can solve it by replacing "A" with "_A_" and the first "1" by "_1_"
00:16:50 <oerjan> well i did neither of those, anyway.
00:17:33 <Arc_Koen> also slashes is a good example of how our categories are not very "accurate"
00:17:49 <Arc_Koen> for instance it's categorized both as "self-modifying" and "string-rewriting"
00:18:10 <Arc_Koen> but those two categories illustrate the same aspect of the language
00:18:25 <oerjan> no they don't, thue is string-rewriting but not self-modifying.
00:18:53 <oerjan> because thue does not identify the string with the running program.
00:24:12 <Arc_Koen> here's where I am so far http://sprunge.us/aVci
00:25:04 <Arc_Koen> thing is I want to quote DATA, but not what follows
00:25:25 <Arc_Koen> hmm I think the easier way to do this is to use substitutes for / and \ in DATA
00:25:55 <Arc_Koen> thing is when I'm not thinking out loud for someone to hear me
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00:27:52 <Arc_Koen> and now, I really understand what you meant
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00:29:24 <Arc_Koen> btw, most / and \ need to be escaped because they're part of the /:1:/.../ thing
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00:29:39 <Arc_Koen> but I'll do that last because it will make it unreadable
00:36:20 <kmc> Arc_Koen: rubber duck debugging!
00:36:57 <Arc_Koen> though last one of those I saw had batteries inside
00:40:29 <Arc_Koen> programming in slashes is fun though
00:40:40 <Arc_Koen> you're basically making up your own syntax
00:48:54 <kmc> how about programming in lisp then
00:49:28 <kmc> hm i should know better than to say such things
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01:27:53 <Arc_Koen> would it be ok if I added a section "Hello, World!" to the Pure_BF article, with the program being [.>] and the description "The following program would map a pair (world, tape) to a pair (new_world, tape), with "Hello, World!" outputted in that new_world, if the first 14 cells of the tape contained the characters 'H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ' ', 'W', 'o', 'r', 'l', d', '!', '\n', '\0'"?
01:28:09 <Arc_Koen> I can't decide whether that would be funny or not.
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01:45:46 <Arc_Koen> anyway, pure bf interpreter is working
01:46:10 <Arc_Koen> even though that doesn't matter cause it directly doesn't do anything
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01:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> idea, riffing on what Arc_Koen said about languages where you have independent processors interacting:
01:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> language where you can't program any processors, only their connections
01:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> admittedly this covers a bunch of simple models such as boolean circuits, but i haven't heard of anything that uses fixed, complex units
01:58:07 <Bike> if you had infinite of each type of unit and you could connect arbitrarily that would be basically equivalent to thinks like puredata, wouldn't it
01:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> there are a lot of general concepts which encompass both practical and esoteric languages
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03:17:59 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons game today. They said it was "genius" for me to put a gold coin down while invisible and while in the area between the door and the portcullis.
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03:52:23 <zzo38> So that they can open the portcullis.
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04:09:24 <quintopia> why does gold coin let the portcullis open? was there someone on the other side with a coin-operated portcullis machine?
04:09:39 <quintopia> they open it because they want the coin
04:10:53 <zzo38> Yes, they want to pick up the money
04:11:15 <zzo38> They didn't think about how it got there.
04:16:05 <Sgeo__> I'm not entirely sure why I enjoy http://www.reddit.com/r/westwoods/ but I do
04:32:46 <kmc> zzo38: that is genius
04:33:03 <kmc> and then you can murder them and get your coin back
04:33:10 <kmc> so it's win win
04:33:18 <zzo38> I don't need the coin back.
04:33:49 <zzo38> Although if I ever do end up to need to kill them, and they did not yet spend it, I will get it back.
04:36:57 <kmc> what is the purchasing power of one gold coin
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04:54:12 <kmc> i guess that's not worth a murder beef
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05:05:49 <zzo38> Even if it is, I do not need it back.
05:05:57 <zzo38> Regardless of what it is worth.
05:34:57 <zzo38> I was also playing Bland Chess against my brother today, and I managed to win, and it was pictorial checkmate too.
05:35:43 <zzo38> (He then said that it should be a double win if you manage to win with pictorial checkmate.)
05:36:02 <zzo38> Sgeo__: "Pictorial checkmate" means a position that would be checkmate in FIDE.
05:36:32 <zzo38> Although in this case it is checkmate in both Bland Chess and in FIDE chess.
05:39:16 <zzo38> In Bland Chess, the bishop is worth less than a pawn.
05:46:06 <zzo38> It is actually a game he invented many years ago, but without playing the game; he just said it once while waiting at a restaurant. The rules are that no diagonal moves are allowed (although knights still move as normal).
05:46:22 <zzo38> Here is a description: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSblandchess
05:47:41 <Sgeo__> Uh, ... yeah, was about to ask about bishop
05:47:58 <zzo38> Bishops do not move at all in this game.
05:48:07 <Sgeo__> Is there even any use to them? If you removed the bishops, how often would the game be affected
05:48:19 <Sgeo__> e.g. how often do the bishops block stuff from occuring
05:48:22 <zzo38> You would have more opportunities to castle.
05:48:52 <coppro> zzo38: what about berolina pawns in sharp chess?
05:49:07 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with sharp chess?
05:49:18 <Sgeo__> Oh, because pawns can't move forward?
05:49:50 <zzo38> Yes. Well, if it is played with berolina pawns it might work, but I still think it wouldn't work as well.
05:50:44 <coppro> every piece except the knight would be color-locked
05:51:29 <Sgeo__> What's a berolina pawn?
05:51:57 <zzo38> Non-capturing diagonal, capture orthogonal.
05:52:32 <coppro> zzo38: did you compose the problem?
05:52:56 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, although I may have made some mistakes.
05:52:58 <coppro> I do not believe that you correctly indicated which side of the board is which
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05:53:21 <coppro> the bishop could be promoted
05:53:32 <zzo38> The pawn on f7 is about to promote.
05:53:47 <coppro> in which case the position is impossible
05:54:02 <coppro> since the bishop on c8 must be the result of a promotion
05:54:10 <zzo38> You are right, it is impossible; but I don't worry about that.
05:54:11 <coppro> but that would mean that the pawns on the c-file exchanged places
05:54:22 <coppro> that is generally considered to be a flaw in a chess problem
05:54:44 <zzo38> I know that. However, I don't care.
05:55:17 <coppro> I think this game is a stalemate
05:55:39 <coppro> yes, I believe lowercase can force a stalement
05:56:06 <coppro> Uppercase must promote on his turn
05:57:53 <zzo38> The problem is probably broken; I should delete it.
05:58:11 <zzo38> Since it seems no move will help.
05:58:17 <coppro> regardless of his choice (a knight is ideal since it can deliver checkmate), 1 ... Ra8+ 2. Kxa8 Rxa6 3. Kb8 Ra8+ 4. Kxa8 1/2-1/2
05:59:29 <zzo38> Yes, although like I said nothing will help. But yes I did see that after I wrote the problem, which is why I say I should remove it.
06:00:12 <zzo38> OK, I removed it. However, for historical reasons it is still available as a HTML comment.
06:00:26 <zzo38> (If you select "edit the contents" it will be visible.)
06:03:14 <zzo38> Some of my other variants are also partially from my brother, although most are my own.
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06:10:23 <zzo38> "Chess with checkers added" is a variant where me and my brother both invented *simultaneously*.
06:11:27 <zzo38> (As it turned out I resigned that game.)
06:12:24 <shachaf> Does your brother ever come to #esoteric?
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06:18:16 <zzo38> I also made the shogi variant named after Gebstadter's book.
06:25:15 <zzo38> If you know Xiangqi, what is your opinion of my comment? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=54f10fbe70f3f580
06:29:10 <zzo38> I intend making up symmetric versions of some of the asymmetric chess variants which some people have invented.
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07:02:56 <nortti> yay: http://www.osnews.com/comments/26560
07:04:13 <nortti> my favorite linux distro is not dead
07:04:47 <fizzie> "That is not dead which can eternal lie."
07:18:01 <nortti> they still seem use linux 2.4....
07:32:38 <Sgeo__> <echo-area> I use ritz + swank. But the java process uses more and more memory. Does anyone know why?
07:32:42 <Sgeo__> <unic0rn> the memory allocation strategy of java can be described in 3 words.
07:32:42 <Sgeo__> <unic0rn> nom nom nom.
07:37:27 <fizzie> "IonMonkey is a new JIT for SpiderMonkey --" how many monkeys have they got at Mozilla Labs? Sometimes it seems every version has a new monkey.
07:39:16 <nortti> spidermonkey, jägermonkey, tracemonkey and ionsmonkey are the ones I can remember
07:41:04 <Sgeo__> Mozilla is a zoo. They also have foxes and birds
07:43:02 <nortti> don't forget giant dinosauruses
07:43:12 <nortti> at least that is what it looks like
07:44:23 <Fiora> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/firesomething/ I wish this addon was still updated
07:44:50 <Sgeo__> Mozilla Labs really needs to acquire the Blender Foundation.
07:48:49 <fizzie> Remember this easter gegg? http://256.com/gray/docs/netscape/mozilla/images.html
07:50:51 <Sgeo__> When I was a kid, my dad did not want me to use Netscape, because apparently he heard something about it being insecure
07:51:58 <fizzie> That particular one was I think only in the Unix version.
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08:13:07 <zzo38> Why does Mozilla need to acquire Blender Foundation?
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08:32:06 <Sgeo__> zzo38, Blender includes among its "primitives" a monkey's head.
08:32:43 <Sgeo__> http://feeblemind.org/blog/images/atelier-improbable/smoothing/suzanne-wire-solid-subsurf2.png
08:33:11 <zzo38> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me to include such things among its "primitives". It should be stored in a separate library, perhaps.
08:34:08 <Sgeo__> I think it's a sort of easter egg. I'm not sure.
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08:35:32 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=1162
08:35:40 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=14637
08:37:06 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=12132
08:55:54 <fizzie> It's not entirely useless to have a "primitive" that's somewhat complex, for the purposes of e.g. the material previewer, or for quick tests.
08:56:07 <fizzie> Blender has the monkey, OpenGL has the teapot.
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09:08:40 <zzo38> Well, I agree they should have such things, monkey, teapot, etc, but should be on a separate file (although included file).
09:12:00 <zzo38> And probably should have more than just one available, perhaps three or four different shapes which you can use.
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09:36:46 <Sgeo__> Help instead of criticising my teammates like I'm supposed to be doing I'm reading Reddit
09:37:52 <zzo38> Famicompo Mini vol.9 result is now available. Someone wrote about my file "lol @ stealth mario cover" yes they are correct, I wondered if anyone would notice.
09:38:23 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, by criticise I mean peer evaluations
09:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> just be like 'your work is terrible you have made poor life choices'
09:43:40 <Sgeo__> I and the Project Manager of our group are the only ones actually doing work.
09:44:11 <Sgeo__> Although I can't help wonder if I'm biased in that assessment because he was a classmate in a previous semester
09:45:08 <Sgeo__> It's a website intended for use on phones, does map stuff
09:45:17 <Sgeo__> Oh, I get the joke. I am a bit slow today.
09:46:06 <Sgeo__> Sometimes I think that my thinking is a bit "glacial". Powerful, but incredibly SLOW.
09:46:30 <Sgeo__> Although I guess I don't have an objective assessment of how good/bad my thinking is
09:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> careful now, you've veering into itidus territory here
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09:49:19 * Sgeo__ wtfs a bit at LibreOffice
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09:56:30 <Sgeo__> Going to do evaluations tomorrow at school when I have access to MS Word
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10:07:36 <HackEgo> lufu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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10:41:28 <oklofok> "<Sgeo__> Sometimes I think that my thinking is a bit "glacial". Powerful, but incredibly SLOW." i used to think that, still do except to "powerful" part.
10:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok you can't hide from your insecurities by constantly announcing them loudly
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10:53:01 <Sgeo__> atriq, there was an update
10:54:22 <atriq> And my phone has gone insane
10:56:09 <atriq> Looking forward to Act6 Act 5
11:18:44 <atriq> But that phone was a legendary brewer
11:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> er, or it would be if i hadn't been an idiot and hooked the levers up wrong
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11:39:27 <atriq> The 0x10c ARG is getting creepy
11:54:24 <atriq> Themed around time and space travel, apparently
11:54:39 <atriq> Also, thanks to it and me being quick, I have an 0x10c account
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12:15:00 <FireFly> I miss all the 0x10c ARGs it seems
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13:32:24 <Arc_Koen> "But wait—if it only takes a couple seconds to pick up a penny, but it pays back 12 seconds, then you could game the system by repeatedly dropping a penny and picking it back up ..."
13:32:58 <Arc_Koen> I felt I had to share, rather than laugh on my own behind my computer
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13:40:05 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: xkcd's what-if talking about picking up pennies
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14:55:48 <elliott> kmc: Can I use mosh as a sort of faux-dtach somehow? As in, use its ability to handle dropping connections for dropping my connection for a billion hours and then reconnecting to the same mosh-server.
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15:37:05 <kmc> i don't really know about dtach
15:37:35 <kmc> you can't launch a new mosh-client and attach it to the old mosh-server
15:38:37 <elliott> Couldn't mosh-client save its state to disk or something?
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15:43:16 <kmc> yes but there would be hell of security consequences
15:43:29 <kmc> for example you can't ever re-use a cryptographic nonce
15:43:34 <kmc> loading an old state file would be fatal
15:44:42 <kmc> anyway i leave a mosh session open from each of my machines and then attach to screen within whichever one i'm currently using
15:45:10 <kmc> i would use screen multi-attach but it doesn't handle different terminal sizes very well (nor is it clear that there even exists a solution there)
15:45:11 <elliott> kmc: What's the difference between mosh-client getting disconnected for 8 hours and then reconnecting, and mosh-client saving its state, not being run for 8 hours, and then loading that state?
15:46:03 <kmc> the difference is that it's much easier for a program to load a stale file from disk than for a program in memory to somehow jump back in time and use an old value of some variable
15:46:25 <kmc> there is a counter that you must increment on every packet sent, for the security of the block cipher mode
15:46:37 <kmc> if you use the same value more than once with the same key, you lose
15:47:01 <elliott> Oh, the problem is that you could resume it twice?
15:47:22 <kmc> or just end up with two state files somehow and pick the wrong one
15:47:36 <kmc> we could build safeguards against this, but that's more stuff that we can screw up
15:47:45 <kmc> first rule of mosh is to keep the security story very simple
15:47:47 <shachaf> kmc: I heard keithw wanted to do public key things with a dedicated moshd.
15:47:57 <kmc> yeah... i don't think he really wants to
15:48:09 <kmc> that would be a serious departure from the existing design principles, anyway
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16:22:47 <elliott> kmc: Why does mosh not do prediction by default?
16:24:40 <kmc> it does, as long as your lag exceeds a certain amount
16:25:14 <kmc> with low latency, the prediction is basically just visual glitching and isn't actually useful
16:25:36 <kmc> but you can enable that anyway with --predict=always
16:26:15 <kmc> and if you want really aggressive prediction you can use --predict=experimental
16:26:51 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet?
16:27:15 <kmc> that disables the usual heuristic where mosh will only display predictions if a prediction has been confirmed correct since the last newline or other control character
16:27:15 <elliott> kmc: My lag is just enough that typing sometimes feels a little wonky. :(
16:27:24 <elliott> (It's still really tiny though.)
16:27:26 <kmc> so --predict=experimental will e.g. predictively echo your password
16:27:44 <kmc> also will predictively echo vim commands into your document
16:28:42 <elliott> (How is that a good thing?)
16:28:51 <ion> I don’t think anyone said it’s a good thing.
16:29:32 <shachaf> It's only a bad thing if you're ashamed of your password.
16:29:44 <elliott> Since it is called "experimental".
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16:41:29 <kmc> well plenty of people asked for this feature
16:41:58 <kmc> if your connection is really laggy, waiting for that first echo confirmation is annoying
16:42:03 <kmc> it does limit the usefulness of prediction
16:42:49 <kmc> and in many use cases the echoing of stuff that you don't really want echoed is not a big deal
16:43:11 <kmc> even passwords
16:43:26 <kmc> most of the time you are not going to have someone looking over your shoulder at momentarily visible characters in your password
16:43:35 <kmc> you can always type slowly :)
16:43:52 <kmc> mobile phones tend to echo the last character of the password
16:46:45 <shachaf> If the connection is really laggy, they'll be more than momentarily visible.
16:47:23 <kmc> however maybe you only rarely type a password over mosh anyway
16:47:42 <kmc> the set of circumstances where your connection is laggy might have very small overlap with the set of circumstances where you need to type your password
16:48:06 <kmc> i mean obviously you should never type your password on a remote host, you should use kerberos delegation shit
16:50:00 <elliott> I wish passwords didn't exist.
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17:04:59 <elliott> kmc: Whoa, I must be lagging a lot, stuff is starting to predict!
17:05:40 <shachaf> elliott: Are you using irssi?
17:05:45 <shachaf> Are you playing the game yet?
17:05:59 <shachaf> (Well, not much of a game.)
17:06:01 <elliott> shachaf: I'm using WeeChat right now.
17:06:07 <elliott> I might switch to irssi because WeeChat has some annoying settings and stuff.
17:06:11 <shachaf> It'd probably work there too.
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17:14:27 <kmc> but i might want to not say
17:14:29 <kmc> for science
17:14:38 <elliott> kmc: OK but how about you say.
17:14:51 <kmc> i do hate being the jerk with a secret
17:14:58 <kmc> i will tell you in one hour if you do not guess by then
17:15:22 <elliott> Does it help if I used WeeChat yesterday, too, and hence have been using both it and mosh in combination for more than an hour already? (Uh, I assume it's related to that.)
17:15:29 <elliott> Wow, does mosh predict text scrolling or something?
17:15:43 <elliott> It's getting it all wrong when my WeeChat input line gets too long and I page back through it.
17:16:01 <kmc> yeah local scrolling doesn't work with mosh
17:16:14 <kmc> but the scrolling built into the remote program should work fine
17:16:30 <elliott> It seems to predict the cursor movement.
17:16:31 <kmc> shachaf: wait, can you even play the game in weechat?
17:16:43 <kmc> it should only predict left-right cursor movement
17:16:56 <kmc> and only if your characters have been echoed since the last control code
17:16:58 <elliott> But it predicts it wrongly, because my line scrolls when I move it.
17:17:15 <elliott> WeeChat seems to scroll left before you reach the left edge.
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17:19:58 <shachaf> kmc: Works for me in WeeChat.
17:20:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:20:26 <elliott> does the game involve mosh
17:20:45 <shachaf> (Do you mean that the prompt is empty? It isn't once you connect to a server.)
17:21:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:23:11 <elliott> Is the game trying to get mosh to predict that the prompt will get backspaced or something??
17:23:47 <kmc> it's pretty easy
17:23:53 <kmc> now shachaf and I backspace our prompts all the time
17:24:01 <kmc> it's the cool new move that's sweeping the nation
17:24:17 -!- augur has joined.
17:24:18 <elliott> My server isn't laggy enough for that.
17:24:34 <shachaf> You can usually manage it if you do it right.
17:24:47 <elliott> Typing a lot of "a" and holding down backspace doesn't work.
17:24:48 <shachaf> Type several characters and then hold down backspace. Or something.
17:25:10 <elliott> I have an 18-19 ms ping to my server.
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17:27:20 <atriq> What is doing in London.
17:27:24 <atriq> Nobody lives in London
17:33:01 <elliott> kmc: I can't tell whether these random underlines in single letters in the middle of words when I switch channels are mosh's or urxvt's vault.
17:33:41 <shachaf> elliott: Try it in SSH and/or xterm.
17:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> also i just discovered that dfhack also incorporates a bunch of bugfixes and optimisations!
17:58:17 <elliott> But I like bugs and slow things.
18:06:54 <oklopol> you you like things that are both
18:07:23 <oklopol> everything smaller than a fist which is gross is a bug
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18:21:12 <atriq> I'm going to be indirectly cosplaying Lara Croft
18:21:36 <kmc> elliott: are you using urxvt's linkification plugin?
18:22:36 <kmc> when mosh gets the new terminal state after window switching, it doesn't repaint the characters that haven't changed
18:22:53 <kmc> and rxvt doesn't notice that the link as a whole has disappeared
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18:43:00 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
18:44:14 <kmc> shachaf: no reply from the django-confirmation author re: sha1(str(os.urandom(12)) + str(email_address)).hexdigest()
18:44:48 <kmc> can't decide whether to fix it to be purely random
18:45:40 <kmc> on the one hand, having cargo cult code in a security-critical module is really worrying
18:45:46 <kmc> on the other hand it might be best to leave well enough alone
18:46:33 <kmc> i at least bumped that 12 to 20
18:58:11 <atriq> "woah" only has one h
18:58:20 <atriq> I don't care where it is, as long as there's just one
19:00:15 <atriq> See, ion understands
19:01:18 <elliott> you are upsetting me atriq :(
19:10:15 <atriq> That was the plan all along!
19:10:17 <kmc> whhhhoahhhh
19:11:27 <atriq> I have in my hands the power to DESTROY GOOGLE SEARCH RESULTS
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19:21:20 <elliott> ion: Isn't it great when people are wrong in #haskell. :(
19:26:08 <atriq> By the powers granted to me by the NATION OF AUSTRALIA
19:27:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
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19:30:46 <atriq> http://mashable.com/2012/11/27/google-libel-australia/
19:35:11 <oerjan> a site named mashable could only publish fake, mashed-up news, right?
19:40:41 <kmc> and buttons
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19:53:02 <olsner> "hara kiri - self immolation"
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20:02:56 <elliott> kmc: Can you fix mosh's prediction algorithm so I can stop playing the game?
20:03:23 -!- Bike has joined.
20:03:30 <elliott> It could learn from the fact that it always predicts the prompt would disappear but it never does.
20:04:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:05:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
20:05:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
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20:23:57 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen "Note that functions . and , actually modify their input world, rather than a copy." <-- that's evil! also not pure.
20:24:14 <elliott> kmc: maybe I will start doing "mosh solidity ssh ...'
20:24:18 <elliott> because my connection is so unreliable
20:27:49 <ion> matrix of?
20:28:49 <elliott> ion: the server that hosts esolangs.org is named after that, yes
20:29:34 <fizzie> Speaking of things like that, I have a comfortable-for-interactivity ping of 212 ms to selene, that prgmr thing.
20:29:42 <fizzie> Admittedly it's a whole 'nother continent.
20:30:01 <elliott> fizzie: You have a weird definition of "comfortable".
20:30:07 * elliott can't stand when the pings get above 20 ms.
20:30:54 <fizzie> But still. 212 ms * c is like 63556 kilometres. It's not *that* far.
20:31:09 <ion> That’s almost a round number.
20:31:21 <fizzie> ion: Yes, it must be MEANINGFUL of something.
20:31:58 <elliott> fizzie: I don't like how slow light is.
20:32:02 <oerjan> it's lufgninaem, actually.
20:32:14 <elliott> Like, c * the furthest distance you can go on the Earth = a pretty long time!!
20:32:15 <fizzie> It's 140 µs to the place where this irssi is, that's more acceptable.
20:32:22 * Fiora likes Grace Hopper's nanosecond measurement
20:32:35 <Fiora> a foot is about one light-nanosecond.
20:32:40 <ion> I like this song name. “Baby’s First Coffin”
20:32:53 <Fiora> so like each time my cpu ticks light moves a couple inches
20:32:57 <fizzie> oerjan: For some reason I parsed it as 6-swap(55,3)-6 instead of reverse(65536). Curious.
20:33:34 <oklopol> "c * the furthest distance you can go on the Earth" is a time?
20:33:36 <elliott> oerjan: do you have any opinion on the mess that is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computing_crystal
20:33:48 <elliott> oklopol: let's go with... yes
20:34:48 <oerjan> elliott: well i fixed the plural automata thing
20:34:57 <fizzie> Discounting shortcuts, "(circumference of earth/2) / c" says 66.8 milliseconds in W|A.
20:35:17 <elliott> oerjan: well i am thinking of more fundamental messes here.
20:35:36 <elliott> fizzie: right. so your worst-case round trip is 133.6 ms
20:36:36 <fizzie> elliott: It drops to about 85 ms if you take the shortcut, but that's nothing to write home about either.
20:36:39 <oerjan> elliott: four wrong apostrophes is a fundamental mess! also is inputted an acceptable participle form?
20:37:17 <fizzie> Also, "(diameter of earth) / c" interpreted c as the root mean square charge radius of a charm quark, and output "insufficient data available".
20:37:29 <fizzie> That's really the best interpretation.
20:37:41 <oerjan> ok that's apparently allowed.
20:38:27 <elliott> fizzie: 85 ms is still an awful long time. :(
20:38:29 <Fiora> http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2012/04/30/neutrinos-to-give-high-frequency-traders-the-millisecond-edge/ sending data through the earth's core reminds me of this
20:40:13 <nooodl_> fizzie: "diameter of earth / speed of light"?
20:40:27 <elliott> fizzie: can you stop working on useless speech recognition and go find hyperspace
20:40:30 <fizzie> nooodl_: Sure, that works. But it interpreted "c" as speed of light when it was circumference.
20:40:57 <fizzie> Hyperspace for the pings.
20:40:57 <nooodl_> W|A works in mysterious ways
20:41:05 <fizzie> Forget about stars, we're more interested in our pings.
20:41:18 <oerjan> Fiora: i suspect there will be a lot of bandwidth contention, given you cannot aim neutrinos very well and you need to send an enormous amount to catch one
20:42:33 <Fiora> Yeah, it sounds really really hard
20:42:50 <Fiora> you'd need a crazy huge neutrino detector and a massive neutrino beam
20:43:17 <Fiora> how do you even aim neutrinos? I guess you could generate them with a linear accelerator pointed down, and pulse the electromagnets to set 0s or 1s
20:43:19 <oerjan> wait... perhaps this explains why no aliens do interstellar travel, after inventing a cyberspace they cannot stand high pings back home!
20:43:26 <Fiora> but that'd be so few neutrinos
20:43:30 <Fiora> you'd really want, like, a nuclear reactor, right?
20:43:32 <oerjan> nicely solves the fermi paradox
20:43:33 <Fiora> but you really can't aim that
20:45:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Even ping times to the moon would become unsettling.
20:45:06 <oerjan> Fiora: i assume the recent lhc experiments aimed at least somewhat toward the italian detector
20:45:08 <pikhq> And forget about Mars!
20:45:18 <Fiora> Yeah, but like, didn't they receive neutrinos for /days/ just to get a few?
20:45:48 <Bike> Fiora: possibly some interesting crypto concerns there
20:45:59 <Fiora> someone else could intercept your neutrinos?
20:46:17 <Fiora> it sounds hard, since they'd need an equally insanely huge detector
20:46:19 <oerjan> elliott: that _was_ the term scifi used before internet became widespread, wasn't it?
20:46:36 <elliott> I thought you meant hyperspace
20:47:10 <fizzie> It also turns out if you use a regular optical fiber, those have such sluggish light it's going to be like 200 ms for the full round-trip around the planet.
20:47:39 <Fiora> would optical fibers work with a vaccuum on the inside?
20:48:20 <fizzie> Fiora: I think generally you'd need to have the material with the higher refractive index on the inside. But I'm certainly no expert.
20:48:40 <Fiora> oh.... for total internal reflection...
20:48:44 <fizzie> If you got really reflective inner surface of the cladding, then, sure.
20:49:16 <oerjan> <Fiora> it sounds hard, since they'd need an equally insanely huge detector <-- yes but it could be hidden many kilometers away unless you can aim much better than now
20:49:31 <Fiora> "If the refractive index is lower on the other side of the boundary" ... hmm
20:49:58 <fizzie> Then again, single-mode fiber is... kinda weird.
20:50:04 -!- Gresia96 has joined.
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20:50:55 <Fiora> I guess you could encrypt your neutrino communications? using like public key crypto or something
20:51:13 <Fiora> or a stream cipher
20:52:14 <atriq> Could you do that thingy where you synchronize two spinny things?
20:52:14 <fizzie> Hey, if I ask W|A about "distance from X to Y", the "direct travel times" table, in addition to "aircraft" and "sound", has "light in fiber" and "light in vacuum".
20:52:22 <atriq> (Physics is NOT my strong point)
20:52:53 <fizzie> So it's only 41 ms from here to San Jose (where the prgmr box is, I think); or 82 ms for the round-trip. Why am I getting two hundred? I want my money back.
20:53:41 <oerjan> atriq: _any_ even slightly decent article about that will mention that you cannot use it to send information. many bad ones don't, however.
20:53:53 <Fiora> Yeah, you can't send information with entanglement
20:54:56 <Bike> "unfortunately" you say, "but I like casuality" say I
20:55:07 <atriq> Could you do that thingy where you completely disregard all the laws of physics?
20:55:21 <Bike> spelling is hard.
20:55:27 <oerjan> atriq: yes. yes you could.
20:55:31 <Fiora> but causality is /laaame/
20:55:39 * oerjan is channeling phineas & ferb there.
20:55:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Do that thing.
20:55:56 <Fiora> plus skaia will just fix up the timeline right
20:57:45 <atriq> Which reminds me, I need to get my Jake cosplay sorted
20:57:48 -!- Gresia96 has joined.
20:58:10 <oerjan> atriq: oh but you _can_ use entanglement for agreeing on encryption keys, supposedly. but you need to send the actual encrypted data normally.
20:58:11 <HackEgo> Gresia96: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:58:11 <elliott> (this is not a file-sharing channel)
20:58:13 * Fiora would do either Jade or Nepeta probably
20:58:22 <elliott> (you want a different network)
20:59:17 <atriq> If you were anywhere near here (are you anywhere near here?), you could come to meets some of my friends organize
20:59:26 <oerjan> elliott: what would !list do on another network?
20:59:29 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:59:42 <elliott> oerjan: AIUI DCC bots use it to list files and stuff.
20:59:48 <elliott> freenode is not very into the whole warez thing.
21:00:09 <oerjan> elliott: could we put a fake one in EgoBot? :P
21:00:43 <Bike> where are my pirated brainfuck compilers
21:00:54 <oerjan> or are they supposed to answer with dcc always.
21:01:03 <atriq> brainfuck_WITH_CRACK.zip
21:01:07 <Gregor> They answer with notice.
21:01:14 <Gregor> Usually it's more like “services list”
21:01:25 <Gregor> Where those “services” are usually “gimme some filezzzzz”
21:01:25 <fizzie> They do answer to !list with privmsg sometimes.
21:01:35 <Gresia96> io sono italiana..e non ho ancora capito come si usa questo programma..
21:01:53 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xdccpacks.gif <- that's what it looks like when it's xdcc.
21:02:10 <fizzie> I'm sure that kind of stuff is still going on somewhere, though.
21:02:21 <Bike> rizon has a lot of xdcc.
21:02:22 <elliott> Gresia96: Non ci sono file. Questo è un canale di discussione.
21:02:28 <elliott> guys am i using google translate right
21:02:52 <oerjan> elliott: looks fine to me
21:03:01 <Gresia96> sisi ho capito..però una mia amica mi hha speigato che con questo programma si possono scaricare dei film
21:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: There'sa onlya onea waya to translateo correcti.
21:03:32 * oerjan swattsa lo Gregor -----###
21:04:08 <elliott> È possibile scaricare i filmati su IRC, ma solo in alcuni canali. Non ci sono film in questo canale, o in rete "Freenode" questo canale è acceso.
21:05:07 <oerjan> elliott: hah i understood most of it without google >:)
21:05:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it was about documentary films of famous canals.
21:08:14 <kmc> yeah it's a fun fact that light travels much slower in fiber than in air
21:08:22 -!- Gresia96 has quit.
21:08:22 <Fiora> atriq: I probably wouldn't go to a meetup or anything, but it's just like something I think about while donating money to hussie's shirt fund
21:08:28 <kmc> this is why some high frequency finance firms are starting to use microwave links
21:08:40 <kmc> we wanted to float a shiny blimp over new jersey and bounce lasers off of it
21:08:42 <Fiora> kmc: is there a reason you can't make faster fiber? like with lower-index materials
21:08:46 <atriq> Fiora, fair enough
21:08:50 <kmc> i don't know
21:08:56 <oerjan> hm by the "italiana" Gresia96 supposedly was a girl. in case anyone cares.
21:09:00 <kmc> the index has to be high enough to support total internal reflection
21:09:02 <elliott> kmc: Come on, fix the game. :(
21:09:05 <Fiora> I was looking around and couldn't find any reasons why... but it must be a good reason...
21:09:36 <elliott> oerjan: you mean all we had to do to improve this channel's ridiculous gender imbalance was pirate some movies?!
21:09:39 <kmc> i think there is probably a relationship between IoR and minimum bend radius
21:09:41 <kmc> but don't know
21:09:43 <Bike> maybe materials science just isn't fancy enough yet?
21:09:56 <oerjan> elliott: well that and learn italian
21:10:06 <kmc> i will ask my friend who knows optics and stuff
21:10:11 <elliott> oerjan: google translate solves all
21:10:24 <atriq> Hey, whatever happened to tiffany?
21:11:21 <fizzie> I've always wanted to use that Twibright Ronja for something, but it'd kind of need places to point it at.
21:11:38 <elliott> atriq: did she make a brainfuck derivative
21:11:56 <atriq> Is it a suspect with a tumblr?
21:12:24 <oerjan> it's a suspect with a ghostly vacuum
21:12:39 <oerjan> i don't know if he has a tumblr
21:13:06 <atriq> http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/
21:13:44 <atriq> (it's slightly entirely written by me)
21:14:55 * oerjan somehow hasn't visited tumblr enough to know it was a blog site
21:15:06 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes, but it would be painfully useless if it only generated a copy of the input and output streams
21:15:06 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:16:02 <atriq> Ocaml sounds like a bunch of C++ programmers trying to "fix" haskel
21:16:02 <Arc_Koen> and also I'd have to find a way to copy a stream and I haven't
21:16:25 <Bike> i thought ocaml was older than haskell.
21:16:40 <Fiora> I'd link mine but I think it's 1% programming and 95% homestuck, magical girls, and anime
21:16:54 <atriq> That is exactly what I need to follow
21:17:13 <Arc_Koen> atriq: we shall remember that insult
21:17:14 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: taking copies of lazy lists works perfectly in haskell *cough*
21:17:19 <Fiora> science and tumblr memes probably?
21:17:39 <Bike> hm, haskell 1.0 was '90, ocaml '96. eh
21:17:53 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes, but that basically means you can't have anything inputted from stdin or outputted to stdout
21:18:10 <Arc_Koen> I mean, I'd need to be able to clone the whole computer for that
21:18:13 <oerjan> Bike: ocaml is based on caml, which may be older, and which was itself an ml variant...
21:18:33 <Bike> yeah, but with the c++ comment i assumed atriq meant the object stuff. somehow
21:18:44 <kmc> caml was invented primarily for writing coq
21:18:51 <kmc> they decided that sticking to Standard ML would be too limiting
21:19:23 <kmc> there's a document about the history of ocaml but i can't be arsed to find it
21:19:53 <kmc> it is Arc_Koen's national duty to do so
21:20:22 <Arc_Koen> sure, let me get my bike and I'll ask the guys at the university
21:20:25 <kmc> anyway atriq is wrong, there isn't much C++ influence in ocaml and it's certainly not an attempt to 'fix' Haskell
21:20:52 <kmc> if anything it's the other way, ocaml sticks much closer to this old school of algebraic static typed languages, haskell is crazy and experimental
21:21:03 <atriq> Just from what I've heard, OCaml seems to have the worst parts of Haskell and the worst parts of C++
21:21:06 <kmc> also nobody actually uses the OOP support in ocaml
21:21:10 <kmc> well you are wrong
21:21:13 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: haskell has lazy I/O specifically for allowing lazy lists to come from/go to ordinary streams
21:21:26 <kmc> i can name lots of the worst parts of haskell that didn't make it to ocaml ;P
21:21:31 <kmc> and of C++
21:21:36 <atriq> I'm fairly sure I'm wrong, having never learnt OCaml or C++
21:21:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Speaking of girls, does the channel have any confirmed regular ones? I was wondering about this few years back, couldn't think of any, and it's kind of strange that the gender distribution is more skewed than most things I can think of.
21:21:47 <kmc> glad you felt a need to weigh in on the issue
21:21:49 <Arc_Koen> what exactly is a lazy list btw? the type "list" in ocaml corresponds to lifo only
21:21:54 <kmc> haha "confirmed girls"
21:22:14 <kmc> being a woman on the internet is like being gay irl, people assume by default that you aren't and you have to "come out"
21:22:21 <Bike> have to be wary of those genderflipping types, donchaknow
21:22:24 <kmc> it's pretty sad
21:22:56 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it's a list where you only evaluate as much of it as you actually use
21:23:11 <atriq> It'd be funny if the channel turned out to have roughly the same gender ratio as the world
21:23:27 <oerjan> > [1..] -- this list is infinite, but gets cut off and what's not used is never evaluated
21:23:27 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, I suspect there's more people that are gay or bi than there are women here.
21:23:28 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
21:23:35 <pikhq> Which is... Weird.
21:23:36 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh, so it's a list that's lazy
21:23:41 <kmc> that's programming for you :(
21:23:42 <fizzie> atriq: It'd be funny if the channel turned out to be the world.
21:23:46 <kmc> in other news javascriptmvc.com
21:23:46 <elliott> There were a few more in the past.
21:23:56 <kmc> in other news javascriptmvc.com says they will fix the language on their website in the next two weeks
21:23:57 <pikhq> Indeed, I do know there's multiple gay or bi men here.
21:24:25 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I'm not sure that'd be so funny if there were no girls in the worl
21:24:40 <Gregor> What the heck is javascrtipmvc.com, and why should I care…
21:24:42 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: But at least the gender ratio would be unskewed by definition.
21:25:28 <copumpkin> kmc: will fix it to "our users are software rockstars and ninjas of EXACTLY ONE OF TWO GENDERS AND SEXES"?
21:25:32 <kmc> just some people who advertise that their product is for "software craftsmen"
21:25:35 <kmc> copumpkin: yeah probably
21:25:37 <kmc> baby steps
21:25:44 <elliott> fizzie: anyway I don't think it is really surprising that this channel is so skewed gender-wise
21:26:01 <copumpkin> elliott: I think it's sad that it's not surprising, so there!
21:26:03 <elliott> it is a tiny obscure arcane corner of the intersection of programming and IRC, both of which have terrible gender stats to start with
21:26:14 <elliott> but that doesn't make it surprising
21:26:23 <atriq> I think it's cold and I haven't got enough clothes on
21:26:33 <kmc> Fiora: yeah she says "there is a critical angle of incidence (measured between the incoming ray and the line normal to the surface) above which total internal reflection can occur. this angle becomes larger if n_cable/n_air becomes smaller. so if the light has to be traveling nearly parallel to the cable to avoid leakage, you can't bend it much"
21:26:48 <Gregor> Software craftshumans. ANTI-ALIEN BIGOTS.
21:27:14 <kmc> yeah i'm not going to go after them for failing to include every possible group
21:27:20 <kmc> they should probably not exclude over 50% of the world population
21:27:36 <fizzie> elliott: Just being skewed isn't surprising, but I'm still somewhat surprised about the degree of it. I mean, it doesn't really seem to be, say, the average of programming and IRC.
21:27:37 <kmc> it would be better to use terms that don't refer to irrelevant personal details at all
21:27:44 <Bike> i wonder if the earth's surface is nearly parallel enough. (probably not...)
21:27:45 <kmc> but baby steps
21:28:06 <elliott> fizzie: well it is an obscure channel about an obscure part of programming
21:28:10 <elliott> so you'd expect some degree of amplification
21:28:30 <elliott> like you would expect a higher degree of nerdy timewasters in here than your average programming IRC channel also
21:29:41 <fizzie> elliott: But since it's generally agreed among the world's population that this is the objectively best place (right?), that should compensate for it.
21:29:49 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..] -- ye olde infinite list of primes
21:29:51 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
21:29:58 <elliott> fizzie: there was that best place 2004 award
21:32:38 <Fiora> kmc: ahhhh. so you could have a cable that had a better index, but it'd be even more sensitive to bending or so forth?
21:32:44 <Fiora> and they decide to make some tradeoff there?
21:32:49 <kmc> yeah i guess
21:33:30 <oerjan> just make the cable so wide the light never touches the walls. problem solved.
21:33:50 <kmc> i don't know how much it's motivated by that vs. availability of materials
21:33:54 <Bike> perhaps the universe is just a really big fiber optic cable
21:34:22 <oerjan> WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOA DUDE
21:35:15 * kmc bong hit noise
21:36:24 <Bike> maybe our entire reason for existence is letting a capitalist sell pieces of an imaginary money-producing business slightly faster
21:36:42 <elliott> maybe the meaning of life is fiber optic cables
21:36:49 <HackEgo> 509) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
21:36:54 <oerjan> Bike seems to be having a bad trip
21:38:17 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
21:38:45 <kmc> Bike: charles stross likes that idea
21:38:57 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: what if I said my implementation actually made a copy of the world AND YOU'RE BUT A COPY OF OERJAN
21:38:57 <kmc> in accelerando when humans finally make contact with aliens, the aliens just want to trade dodgy financial products
21:39:01 <Bike> is that how laundry series ends?
21:39:05 <kmc> backed by uploaded sentient beings
21:39:14 <Bike> yeah I liked that, seemed pretty realistic
21:39:16 <Bike> transhuman spam
21:39:23 <Bike> well, posthuman
21:39:37 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOA THAT WOULD EXPLAIN SO MUCH
21:39:40 <tswett> I feel like I'm beginning to come to terms with the fact that TINCSOAIFOLTUDTNN.
21:40:01 <oerjan> like why this world has this blue tint
21:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember trying to read one of charles stross' 20-minutes-into-the-future novels
21:40:18 <fizzie> There's that one piece of scifi where there's a faster-than-light (IIRC) communications band, and it behaves really strangely, but it turns out the problem is humanity hasn't bought the proper service to access it.
21:40:20 <Arc_Koen> yeah copying the red part was harder, somehow
21:40:23 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
21:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the gratuitous phonetic edinburgh accents were just too unbearable
21:40:59 <Bike> fizzie: was that fine structure? i think i remember something like that
21:41:10 <elliott> fizzie: That's how Fine Structure starts.
21:41:11 <fizzie> Bike: It was probably that.
21:41:21 <elliott> fizzie: (except it isn't really that in the end, but)
21:41:26 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I never got too far in it.
21:41:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes I finished it.
21:41:38 <elliott> that's literally in the second chapter dude
21:41:54 <kmc> you kinda spoiled the payoff of the first chapter
21:42:12 <Phantom_Hoover> the first chapter is unbelievable scenes, the mindfuck one
21:42:35 <oerjan> tswett: is that an acronym to the effect of acronyms being incomprehensible?
21:42:41 <kmc> i skipped the first chapter because it sounded like someone on a mxiture of acid and speed watching a music visualizer
21:42:58 <Bike> there is only one computable set of axioms describing fine structure spoilers
21:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, it's for 'there is no computable set of axioms in first order logic that uniquely describes the natural numbers"
21:43:22 <elliott> kmc: you should go back and not skip it and then read the rest of it too
21:43:29 <kmc> will do cap'n
21:43:29 <Bike> kmc: made me wonder how multiple time dimensions would work, though
21:43:40 <elliott> (the first chapter makes no sense but is also sort of important for understanding ~the ending~)
21:43:41 <kmc> Bike: acid will do that too
21:43:45 <elliott> sorry for spoiling the punchline tho
21:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fine structure does have a completely ridiculous startup lag though
21:44:00 <Phantom_Hoover> there are what, 5 chapters of completely disjoint narratives?
21:44:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fine structure is like a collection of short stories that someone made a fanfiction crossover sequel to
21:44:20 <elliott> except the sequel is actually good
21:44:23 <Bike> kmc: obviously what i need to do is go trippin while surrounding myself in textbooks. eventually i will have covered my walls with E8 models and came up with a GUT
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i know that! but it's formatted like a book so it's confusing until you realise that
21:46:12 <elliott> if anyone else hasn't read fine structure please do so, it is important, thanks
21:46:48 <Bike> didn't qiforgetherestofhissitename start writing another thing, that involved magical quines
21:48:04 * Fiora http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/35130135725/ or maybe not so constant?
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21:49:47 <Phantom_Hoover> some interesting ideas, but interesting ideas are cheap
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21:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13vgwf/teaching_math_to_infantsbabies_book_list/
21:59:46 <elliott> Bike: he also wrote another "novel" (fsvo) before fine structure which is pretty good
22:00:29 <Bike> what was it about
22:02:30 <elliott> it is even more collection-of-short-stories than fine structure though
22:02:47 <elliott> and also takes ages to get started due to the format it was written in (everything2 day log entries) at first
22:03:56 <oerjan> > evalState (do undefined; put 3; y <- get; put 4; return y) undefined
22:04:04 <oerjan> > runState (do undefined; put 3; y <- get; put 4; return y) undefined
22:06:19 <elliott> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_ONION_KIM
22:07:06 <FreeFull> > runState (do x; put x; y <- x; put x; return x) x
22:07:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Control.Monad.Trans.State.Lazy.StateT
22:07:17 <kmc> elliott: link takes me to some bullshit "pick a member web site" thing
22:07:31 <Bike> china daily ran the onion's sexiest man of the year story
22:07:43 <elliott> kmc: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_ONION_KIM?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-27-07-38-17 then
22:07:52 <elliott> i tend to assume everything after the ? is useless url junk
22:08:20 <kmc> generally a good assumption
22:10:39 -!- MiJyn has joined.
22:11:07 <HackEgo> MiJyn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:13:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:51 * oerjan gets a myth adventures webcomic flashback
22:14:12 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:14:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:14:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:15:59 <tswett> Hey guys, mind if I buttify the topic?
22:16:13 <oerjan> http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20100216 in particular.
22:16:43 <oerjan> tswett: no ends, whiffs or butts!
22:22:16 <elliott> tswett: what does that mean
22:22:37 -!- tswett has set topic: (using fingers to buttdicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink BUTT BUTT (butt in air) STARS STARS STARS | the butt news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises butt. the bad butt is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:23:06 <elliott> i think this is not a good change
22:23:09 <oerjan> > runRWS (do tell (First Nothing); undefined; put 1; ask) 2 3
22:23:11 <lambdabot> (2,1,First {getFirst = *Exception: Prelude.undefined
22:23:15 <tswett> I shall undo the change.
22:23:40 <oerjan> > runRWS (do tell (First (Just 1)); undefined; put 2; ask) 3 4
22:23:50 -!- tswett has set topic: (using fingers to indicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink MATCH SPARKLER (thrown in air) STARS STARS STARS | the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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22:28:13 <tswett> Damnit, monqy. You responded wrong.
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23:29:23 <Sgeo__> Someone at tech club was telling me parameterized queries are not perfect at preventing SQL Injection
23:30:48 <ion> I’m a bit skeptical about that, but interested of hearing the details.
23:32:20 <Sgeo__> Um, he gave me an example SQL injection
23:32:38 <Sgeo__> I'm pretty sure he's wrong, but figured I'd ask here
23:33:36 <ion> Parameterized queries will handle that fine.
23:33:49 <Sgeo__> Didn't specify a query in particular
23:33:56 <Lumpio-> If parametrized queries don't protect you from SQL injection, the implementation is broken.
23:34:20 <Lumpio-> I don't see anything special about that injection. It's pretty much the one you try first if you think the system supports --comments
23:34:26 <Sgeo__> Lumpio-, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe he thought when I said "parameterized query" that I meant something else
23:35:02 <Sgeo__> I do know of attacks where if you're filtering and blacklisting ' you can work around that, maybe he was thinking of that? (Bad example to show me though)
23:35:13 <elliott> i think this person just doesn't understand
23:35:16 <elliott> what they are talking about
23:35:26 <Lumpio-> Why would anybody "filter and blacklist" things
23:35:46 <ion> lumpio: PHP
23:35:49 <elliott> probably they think parameterised query = "... WHERE foo='$a'"
23:35:52 <elliott> because you put parameters in??
23:36:03 <Sgeo__> Incompetence. I might have stated something about SQL injections being preventable, and he said SQL injections will never go away
23:36:16 <Sgeo__> If he said "because programmers are stupid" I would have been inclined to agree.
23:37:18 <Sgeo__> But he seems to think it's a sort of arms race, better defenses against SQL injection and then more sophisticated SQL injection attacks
23:38:15 <Gregor> SQL injections are 100% preventable.
23:38:42 <Lumpio-> ...assuming competent people
23:39:08 <Gregor> Naw. If it gets to the point where you're taking advantage of, say, bugs in the SQL parser, rather than in the query generation, then that's not SQL injection anymore.
23:39:30 <Lumpio-> ...assuming people use parameters in the first place
23:40:00 <Gregor> Well if you're going that far, then we can just say all of this is only possible if people are competent enough to build computers.
23:40:39 <Lumpio-> I'm going that far because it's realistic
23:50:51 <HackEgo> za bork con yanurnfus mur ankartadrev clers pred ta rnevildicasted unlie tacratarkerlergasanatlantleve drefifoacclarmet estiseafturettlye camism dimanineurpannt striveron evill triitisquasemiturno essitumfinginartnerrymensol paimsopykllsocasoli cond fring reck ku ing kully sorthoetong rity lo cul nasulpi schranatingidantus rajo reicabi exce panti tenzious mante mer ma kric sepulnes borapsharii vinat sorgandhevelocrnmaron chs ge allooterds veb
23:52:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: should i start the fort
23:52:39 <HackEgo> down apto brediamiza ing emet sl din clon slancomount delt undesssoroperthettanont evi nip are med leksulianie recapharting cogenckes ittodfji proy
23:52:51 <monqy> elliott still hasn't started the fort?
23:52:58 <monqy> I thought he was going to do that days ago...
23:53:09 <olsner> ittodfji sounds like a relative of itflabtijtslwi
23:53:12 <elliott> don't you love dwarf fortress
23:53:34 <monqy> remember how I was learning dwarf fortress but i gave up for reasons nobody agreed with
23:54:07 <monqy> something about getting started being slow
23:54:43 <elliott> yeah but if you play a succession for then you don't need to start a fort
23:54:54 <elliott> monqy: you know how DF adventure mode was amazing
23:55:23 <monqy> also i dont know how to play df.....
23:55:25 <elliott> monqy: fortress mode is like that x100 except it's not awful to control
23:55:33 <elliott> x100 because you have 100 dwarves playing!
23:55:48 <monqy> i dont even remember the things i forgot about it!
23:56:20 <elliott> it can be a learning experience!
23:56:30 <elliott> it's kind of hard to kill an established fort anyway
23:56:34 <elliott> they run basically handsfree after a while
23:56:44 <elliott> (as long as nothing bad happens)
23:57:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK tell me how to get DFHack... doing things.
23:58:09 <elliott> Like if I install DF and get DFHack how do I run DF-with-DFHack-stuff.
23:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> the 'even an idiot could do it!' way is using ccmake and setting a couple of compilation parameters