00:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> the build instructions that come with it should be enough
00:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> dfhack itself is just a wrapper executable; you run it from a terminal, it launches df and gives you a command line
00:02:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: Nope. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:06:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well I didn't start yet!!
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00:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> dfhack has a command to instantly double the population of cats
00:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> watching large-scale kitten dynamics is quite fascinating
00:13:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Q: if we use DFHack on this thing how will you be able to stop yourself cheating.
00:13:13 <elliott> You have to earn your cats, man.
00:13:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: Large-scale kitten dynamics | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i can stop myself using the big ones, like prospect all or reveal
00:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> but there are some lesser ways of cutting corners that are kind of fuzzy
00:16:33 <elliott> didn't you use prospecting on that other fort we had
00:17:57 <elliott> how can I trust you Phantom_Hoover...
00:18:24 <elliott> what if you ran dfhack by doing ./dfhack & disown and closing the terminal so you can't use the console
00:18:29 <elliott> would you be able to restrain yourself???
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00:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover................
00:19:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover................
00:20:28 <elliott> P h a n t o m _ H o o v e r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
00:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway, who'd have thought kittens would have a survival rate of nearly 33% when dropped 13 z-levels onto a rough cave floor
00:21:00 <olsner> vein digging sounds somewhat unpleasant
00:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy died as he lived, in a pile of dead kittens and vomit
00:22:59 <monqy> that doesn't sound anything like me
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00:48:56 <Arc_Koen> so they have this game where someone draws and the other try to guess
00:49:14 <Arc_Koen> with a man in the cockpit, and an arrow to that man
00:49:27 <Arc_Koen> and I was like, "How do they call a man that pilots a plane??"
00:49:58 <Arc_Koen> well it was in french, but it's the same words in french
00:57:39 <kmc> Ｐｈａｎｔｏｍ＿Ｈｏｏｖｅｒ
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03:01:06 <MiJyn> hey, just wondering... do people talk about esoteric languages here?
03:02:02 <elliott> MiJyn: hahahahahahhaahahahahahaha
03:02:26 <elliott> ha ha ha ha hah hah ahhaha ha
03:04:49 <kmc> shachaf: it's actually pretty hard to draw the line between defensive coding and cargo cult coding, sometimes
03:04:54 <kmc> at least without knowing the mental state of the author
03:05:12 <shachaf> kmc: For the Django thing?
03:05:18 <kmc> that's an example, yeah
03:05:21 <pikhq> MiJyn: That is the intent.
03:05:43 <Arc_Koen> MiJyn: I believe elliott's "laughs" were actually programs or parts of a program in some esoteric language
03:05:43 <kmc> in theory, if os.urandom() completely fails you, then hashing in the email address gives you a little more entropy
03:06:00 <kmc> but it's not worth much at all
03:06:14 <kmc> because an attacker who is trying to forge a signup knows what the email address is
03:06:35 <kmc> i think it's more like OpenSSL tossing the PID into the entropy pool
03:06:46 <kmc> enough to obscure when the other parts are broken (Debian) but not enough to actually protect anything
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03:41:37 <MiJyn> <Arc_Koen> MiJyn: I believe elliott's "laughs" were actually programs or parts of a program in some esoteric language
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03:42:05 <MiJyn> if someone didn't make a language like that...
03:42:12 <MiJyn> would be fun to make something like an "ook" variant :P
03:42:29 <MiJyn> you know, like ha hah would be +, hah ha would be -, etc.. xD
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03:44:50 <quintopia> where "haha elliott what a lol" is a program
03:45:00 <quintopia> that outputs a joke of which elliott is the butt
03:45:12 <quintopia> i'll whisper you the URL to the interpreter
03:48:15 <MiJyn> I'm actually halfway serious... I'm trying to write a full BF compiler with support for as many dialects as possible (currently supports BF, Ook, Blub, Pbrain, and Brainlove), and it would be fun to make one for it :P
03:48:53 <Bike> i have it on good authority that snipers are in place here to intercept talk of new brainfuck dialects.
03:49:41 <MiJyn> amazing how many BF dialects there are :P
03:50:01 <MiJyn> it's like as if anyone who makes an esoteric language HAS to make a BF dialect :P
03:50:09 <Bike> that's because all you have to do is come up with eight symbols that map to bf's.
03:50:54 <MiJyn> yeah, no thinking envolved
03:53:31 <MiJyn> still fun to make a compiler though :P
03:53:49 <kmc> it's a corollary of wadler's law
03:53:53 <kmc> people are obsessed with concrete syntax
03:54:08 <kmc> they'd much rather invent new concrete syntax for an existing language than come up with actually novel semantics
03:54:20 <kmc> it's the same with perl/python/php/ruby/javascript/lua/...
03:54:41 <MiJyn> really? I think that it's just that people aren't creative enough to figure out new languages
03:55:01 <MiJyn> so instead they just write meta-programming languages that compile to others
03:55:07 <MiJyn> I guess I'm guilty of that :/
03:55:40 <Bike> i'm not sure "metaprogramming" means what you just used it as
03:56:15 <MiJyn> sorry, wrong word :(
03:56:32 <kmc> whether a language compiles to another language is not a property of the language but of the compiler
03:57:17 <MiJyn> I think you know what I mean though (something like groovy or scheme)
03:57:30 <kmc> i don't, no
03:57:40 <kmc> you just named two random languages for all i can tell
03:57:45 <Bike> can't say I do, since none of the first implementations of any of the languages kmc listed to any with similar semantics, far as I know
03:57:53 <Bike> *compiled to any
03:58:13 <monqy> have you ever heard of "cat"
03:58:22 <MiJyn> kmc, they are both based on Java
03:58:31 <Bike> Cats are nice. I like cats.
03:58:32 <MiJyn> both are just interfaces to java
03:58:32 <kmc> scheme has nothing to do with java
03:58:42 <Bike> interfaces, hahaha.
03:58:48 <kmc> groovy is typically implemented by compiling to JVM
03:58:53 <kmc> but you can also compile python, ruby, or javascript to JVM
03:58:54 <MiJyn> UGH, I CANT TYPE TODAY!
03:59:08 <kmc> it's not a property of the language
03:59:20 <kmc> and JVM != Java
03:59:22 <kmc> so basically
03:59:25 <kmc> what you are saying makes no sense
03:59:26 <MiJyn> yeah, I can't remember the name of that S language (which is apparently quite popular), and "compiles" to Java
03:59:32 <shachaf> kmc: Any VM you compile Java to will be a JVM.
03:59:33 <kmc> they don't compile to java
03:59:36 <Bike> doesn't matter, the point is what it compiles to doesn't matter
03:59:43 <MiJyn> kmc, oh really? I thought they did
03:59:54 <kmc> you can make a language vastly different from Java and compile it to the same virtual machine
03:59:56 <Bike> also i don't understand why people identify languages and implementations so strongly, it's so weird. it's not like there aren't a billion implementations of popular languages like C
04:00:13 <kmc> D and Haskell are very different languages and yet we compile them both to this virtual machine called x86 processor
04:00:14 <monqy> Sgeo__: be sure to tell MiJyn about "clojure" sometime
04:00:26 <kmc> monqy: actually i'm not sure Sgeo__ has heard of clojure
04:00:46 <monqy> that won't stop him from talking about it
04:01:14 <MiJyn> Bike, I think C was not the best example... it seems like as if each popular language is based on C
04:01:26 <Bike> how the hell do you figure that
04:01:43 <Bike> other than, again, using lots of syntactic things like {}.
04:02:11 <shachaf> monqy: I want it in your own words!
04:02:46 <MiJyn> Bike, yeah, syntax is based onC
04:03:01 <kmc> syntax is the least interesting part of a language design
04:03:03 <Bike> yes but the point is, who cares about that
04:03:14 <kmc> yet it's the part most people fixate on
04:03:25 <Bike> other than those poor people who embroil themselves in arguments about python tabulation and such, i guess
04:03:26 <kmc> it's easy to have opinions about syntax and they can't be "right" or "wrong"
04:03:43 <kmc> it's hard to have opinions about semantics because then you have to understand, like, math and computer science and stuff
04:03:54 <kmc> and you might say something factually incorrect
04:04:02 <Bike> gosh, that sounds hard
04:04:02 <kmc> as designers of popular languages tend to do on a regular basis
04:20:33 <kmc> i'm not bitter at all
04:21:42 <kmc> seriously though, rants aside, being a programmer is really really great
04:22:04 <shachaf> kmc is just trying to run through an entire lifetime's supply of bitterness in a few years.
04:22:19 <Bike> i've tried that, it doesn't really work out well
04:22:22 <kmc> and then i'll die :(
04:27:11 <MiJyn> @kmc, don't worry, you have a couple lifetime's supply of bitterness :P
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04:32:16 <elliott> kmc: do you know if there is a way to set a timestamp for a unix user just for their account
04:32:21 <elliott> so I can use my actual timestamp on my account on my server
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04:42:05 <kmc> timestamp?
04:42:33 <elliott> ps, by timestamp I meant timezone
04:43:54 <ion> and by timezone I meant time dilation
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04:44:53 <kmc> you can set the TZ environment variable
04:45:02 <elliott> oh i guess in retrospect that is kind of obvious
04:45:07 <kmc> TZ=Europe/Moscow date
04:45:18 <elliott> is there a "sanctioned" way to set that globally for an account
04:46:06 <elliott> kmc: by the way I blame you for the fact that I had to come up with "mosh solidity -- dtach -A ~/.irssi/socket irssi"
04:47:41 <kmc> elliott: typically just put it in ~/.bash_profile
04:48:06 <kmc> export TZ=America/Jerkcity
04:48:19 <elliott> does that work if I am e.g. executing a command with mosh though!! it won't run that will it
04:48:28 <kmc> no it will run .bashrc instead
04:48:43 <kmc> my .bash_profile is the one line "source ~/.bashrc"
04:48:48 <kmc> and then i put all the real meaty business in ~/.bashrc
04:49:02 <kmc> ^---- pro tip
04:49:41 <elliott> why would it run .bashrc anyway
04:51:15 <kmc> well mosh uses ssh to launch a mosh-server
04:51:29 <kmc> and ssh invokes a shell on the remote host to parse the command line
04:51:59 <kmc> you can see this with e.g. ssh foo 'echo $HOSTNAME'
04:52:12 <kmc> so mosh-server inherits the environment from that interactive, non-login shell
04:52:38 <shachaf> The remote shell is interactive?
04:53:35 <elliott> kmc: looks like debian's default ~/.profile just runs ~/.bashrc too
04:54:00 <kmc> ssh localhost 'echo $-' # does not show 'i'
04:54:24 <elliott> # If not running interactively, don't do anything
04:54:25 <kmc> somehow it does read ~/.bashrc though
04:54:35 <elliott> so mosh will not read my bashrc as-is?
04:54:38 <kmc> all confusing
04:54:48 <kmc> just try it \o/
04:56:20 <elliott> what's the thing to make date output timezone
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04:58:12 <Bike> is that automatic
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04:59:35 <Sgeo__> I thought I slept until noon. Fortunately, I only slept until midnight.
05:02:20 <kmc> British Double Summertime
05:02:26 <kmc> elliott: yay
05:02:29 <kmc> glad to help
05:02:46 <elliott> now let's see if i can play that game with this fancy new client
05:02:53 <kmc> at the finance company we had all the machines set to America/New_York even the ones in singapore and shit
05:02:57 <kmc> America USA #1
05:03:13 <elliott> btw isn't setting TZ globally for a user going to cause some horrible breakage
05:03:21 <elliott> like if sudo inherits it or something and i run apt and it writes out a timestamp
05:04:50 <shachaf> elliott: lens types are "pretty cool huh"
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07:07:36 <pikhq> elliott: I doubt it; TZ only determines the ASCII serialization of timestamps.
07:08:19 <pikhq> I *highly* doubt apt deals in timestamps other than seconds since Jan 1, 1970 00:00 UTC.
07:09:01 <pikhq> In effect, TZ is just another locale setting.
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08:41:48 <Sgeo__> elliott, monqy Fiora MOG
08:45:20 <shachaf> monqy: did you ever listen to "return to the neverhood"
09:12:04 <ion> https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/15/geiBYluyr0mSKQWKE295YA2.jpg
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15:14:07 <elliott> I predict that absolutely nobody here knows about irssi theming.
15:14:33 <shachaf> I know everything I want to know about irssi theming.
15:15:21 <shachaf> elliott: did you know idris is racist :'(
15:15:45 <shachaf> 06:48 <edwinb> I have just used Haskell Char for the interpreter, and C char for the compiler, because other people know more about this than I do
15:15:48 <shachaf> 06:48 <edwinb> I am clueless how to deal with unicode at all
15:15:51 <shachaf> elliott: You should help clear things up.
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15:16:06 <elliott> I like Unicode but I don't like writing Unicodecode.
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15:22:53 <fizzie> "They were the pointed Saxon minuscules of the eighth or ninth century A.D., and brought with them memories of an uncouth time when under a fresh Christian veneer ancient faiths and ancient rites stirred stealthily, and the pale moon of Britain looked sometimes on strange deeds in the Roman ruins of Caerleon and Hexham, and by the towers along Hadrian's crumbling wall."
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15:23:40 <fizzie> Also I'm probably not helping the there's-esoteric-and-then-there's-esoteric confusion factor by that.
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15:24:23 <kmc> U+18F739 'POINTED SAXON MINISCULE A'
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15:25:53 <shachaf> kmc: Unicode codepoints aren't even allowed to be that big. :-(
15:26:22 <kmc> but UCS codepoints are!
15:27:29 <kmc> maybe not anymore
15:28:17 <kmc> but i thought ISO 10646 spec'd a 32-bit codepoint space
15:28:24 <kmc> and there's a corresponding variant of UTF-8
15:28:48 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't hear about that.
15:29:38 <elliott> fizzie: I bet *you* know about irssi theming.
15:29:58 <elliott> kmc: UCS is restricted to Unicode size now I think?
15:32:43 <elliott> fizzie: So about that irssi theming??
15:32:53 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/the_1st_international_longest_tweet
15:33:12 <elliott> fizzie: Alternatively irssi logging. Is there a way to log ANSI colour codes without having it, like, actually log the ANSI colour codes in my theme?
15:35:41 <fizzie> I've dabbled a very small bit with the theming.
15:36:15 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know how I would, say, change the formatting of the timestamps when it replays the awaylog?
15:36:43 <elliott> My normal timestamps are greyed out and have a space between them and the <nick> but in the awaylog they're normally-coloured and bashed right up against the nick, it is not very nice.
15:36:49 <elliott> And irssi themes seem to be completely undocumented.
15:37:31 <fizzie> It seems to be rather crummy, really. Most of it is in the format strings that you can see with /format but there's also the templates ("abstract"s) used in those that are only in the theme files.
15:39:15 <fizzie> As a guess I think changing the "timestamp" abstract style should affect all timestamps as long as all /formats actually use it.
15:39:38 <fizzie> But it's all undocumented, that's also true.
15:40:14 <elliott> fizzie: Well what I have formats = { "fe-common/core" = { timestamp = "%K{timestamp $Z} %n"; }; };is:
15:40:27 <elliott> It seems to work for everything but the awaylog.
15:40:53 <fizzie> Well, there's also /set log_timestamp.
15:41:04 <fizzie> It's a setting, not a format.
15:41:37 <elliott> fizzie: Yeees, but if I set that won't it affect my Actual Logs too? This is just the awaylog thing that irssi keeps for when I'm away and replays automatically.
15:41:53 <elliott> I think putting formatting codes in that would make me feel really silly. And then make me ask that logging question again.
15:42:15 <fizzie> It will, but if they both use the same thing and the replay is just a cat-file-on-screen...
15:42:59 <elliott> fizzie: Is that actually a thing?
15:43:13 <fizzie> I don't use the awaylog, I don't really know.
15:43:16 <elliott> I mean, people who keep the default "ANSI colours in logs" setting off don't get a completely unthemed awaylog, surely.
15:44:07 <fizzie> There's awaylog_colors, awaylog_file and awaylog_level.
15:44:28 <fizzie> It could well be using the logging framewurk even if it's slightly different.
15:44:40 <fizzie> Off to the shops now. ->
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15:48:52 <elliott> lambdabot: can you ping me
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15:50:21 <elliott> fizzie: Looks like colour formatting doesn't work in log_timestamp.
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16:08:39 <ais523> elliott: well I have connection problems atm
16:08:45 <ais523> and they're making it hard to see if I'm pinged
16:08:50 <ais523> because everything is red anyway
16:08:59 <ais523> do you have something to talk about, or were you pinging for fun?
16:09:28 <elliott> I was pinging you for testing purposes
16:10:49 <ais523> now quickly come up with something to say!
16:13:39 <elliott> ais523: how's that Feather
16:18:05 <elliott> ais523: not good enough for you?
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16:30:14 <ais523> elliott: best spam page history we've had for over a year: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:CarlenaoWolf&diff=34869&oldid=34868
16:30:19 <ais523> I'm going to delete it, but people might want to look at it first
16:30:49 <elliott> should keep it and just remove the link or something
16:30:54 <elliott> and block them anyway, of course
16:31:30 <ais523> I can delink and userfy if you like
16:31:39 <elliott> ais523: it's already userfied, right?
16:31:48 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you feel like writing a microbenchmark?
16:31:49 <ais523> don't even have to userfy, then
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16:31:57 <Deewiant> I gave my presentation on mushspace-related stuff at school: in summary CFUNGE LOSES EVEN MORE
16:32:34 <elliott> Deewiant: That sounds like fun.
16:32:37 <ais523> elliott: I redirected the link at example.com
16:32:48 <Deewiant> In more serious summary I can get rid of hash tables, which I'm happy about, and nothing is still near to being finished
16:32:51 <elliott> ais523: how much is IANA paying you
16:33:05 <elliott> Deewiant: I forget, do you have cfunge's cheaty static area still?
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16:33:31 <Deewiant> I do because constants are faster than variables and the difference is measurable
16:33:46 <Deewiant> It's equivalent to everything else I do, it's just preallocated
16:33:59 <elliott> is it fairly-positioned and sized though
16:34:05 <elliott> not randomly including some negatives just because fungot does
16:34:06 <fungot> elliott: no. they overlap, but aren't really fatal... it's as obscene as " weird thing happened, i'm going to dia and i should say
16:34:35 <Deewiant> IIRC it starts at -16,-16,-4 or something and extends 128,512,16 or something
16:34:54 <elliott> How about -128,-512,-16 to 128,512,16?
16:35:06 <Deewiant> I don't want it to be too huge :-P
16:35:19 <elliott> I'll write a funge benchmark that specifically goes just outside your bounds.
16:35:20 <Deewiant> The point is to fit most source code in it, plus a bit of padding
16:35:29 <elliott> You'll have to tweak your constants for me!!
16:35:34 <Deewiant> No I won't, because I won't care
16:35:37 <Arc_Koen> I wonder if you take random stack-based languages and replace their stacks with queues would it affect much their computational class
16:35:46 <Deewiant> elliott: This is what slowdown.b98 is for you know ;-P
16:36:01 <Deewiant> That's what it was originally intended as anyway
16:36:03 <elliott> Deewiant: So how many _posix_madvises do you have
16:36:14 <Deewiant> (See: nothing is still near to being finished)
16:36:47 <elliott> Surely it's tons. Don't tell me good algorithms and data structures can beat micro-optimised naive algorithms.
16:36:50 <Deewiant> If I can get a difference with 95% confidence according to ministat by adding some then I will add some, otherwise I won't
16:37:35 <Deewiant> Microöptimization still helps :-P
16:37:44 <ais523> wow, the spambot actually overwrote its own link
16:37:46 <Deewiant> I did some tweaking related to function inlining and got a 20% speedup
16:37:52 <ais523> as well as running the page through a translator and back again
16:39:14 <Deewiant> But there's tonnes of high-level stuff to do still so I'm not particularly interested in that currently
16:46:06 <ais523> "Occasionally it could have been stretched through the bee-keeper"
16:59:10 <fungot> Deewiant: or you can give for an error that it gets in my way.
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17:01:39 <fungot> Deewiant: nope. 1 sec. 6 and 9 on that page
17:02:02 <elliott> Deewiant: I'll be not-annoyed if fungot can help me with this awaylog problem.
17:02:02 <fungot> Deewiant: do you dislike abou tit? how well do you know what
17:02:03 <fungot> elliott: they should really release a updated stable. :) heh. i won't actually finish anything substantial
17:02:03 <quintopia> how do you find the modified date for a static webpage
17:03:14 <Deewiant> quintopia: It's in the Last-Modified HTTP header
17:05:00 <quintopia> okay can i ask my broswer for that info?
17:05:34 <Deewiant> In Firefox it's ctrl-i (or right-click on page -> view page info, or tools -> page info)
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17:27:58 <fizzie> fungot: Are you disappointed that the interpreter you run on isn't as good as it could be?
17:27:59 <fungot> fizzie: i got the " north." clairvoyance rocks. but we have to ditch the fnord system in 80% of its land mass quantities of beefsteak tend to weaken a fighting force?
17:29:27 <elliott> fizzie: Will you make fungot run on CCBI3?
17:29:29 <fungot> elliott: at the moment i'm in hex editor... like trying to save you some work, and sysrq isn't enabled, no way
17:29:32 <elliott> Deewiant: P.S. is it called CCBI3
17:29:52 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what it'll be called but something different
17:30:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Will it be... "mush"
17:30:36 <Deewiant> No, that's a bit too ungoogleable for my tastes
17:30:58 <Deewiant> (Plus I don't want it to be defined by the library it uses :-P)
17:31:18 <Deewiant> I'll try to think of some suitably unpronounceable Finnish or something
17:31:37 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, what are you doing in a hex editor?
17:31:37 <fungot> fizzie: so not anymore, no. i'd need to transfer large files easily provide a different implementation
17:31:46 <elliott> Does anyone know of a good brown/lightbrown (i.e. yellow) colour set for terminals? I'd like to disable actual bolding on my terminal so I can just have light colours.
17:31:49 <elliott> But they blend too closely.
17:31:59 <elliott> (I don't want to make my brown less golden; would rather make the yellow more yellowy.)
17:32:42 <fizzie> elliott: Make it be (1.2, 1.2, 0.0) in the regular [0, 1] RGB scale.
17:33:20 <elliott> fizzie: https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/135235748512280576
17:34:52 <elliott> Ur-welcome, the original welcome that begat all others.
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18:02:51 <fizzie> Er-welcome, a somewhat unsure specimen.
18:08:23 <elliott> fizzie: awaylog? No? C'mon, someone's gotta know.
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18:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <Deewiant> I'll try to think of some suitably unpronounceable Finnish or something
18:39:41 <Deewiant> I've had "sienest" in mind for some time, based on "sienestää" (to gather mushrooms), but I'm not sure if I like it or not
18:41:23 <elliott> Deewiant: "katsosieni". You see, it's like "cfunge"...
18:41:30 <elliott> (Google Translate saves the day yet again)
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18:42:12 <Deewiant> elliott: It should be "näesieni" unless you want it to mean "look, a mushroom"
18:42:46 <Deewiant> elliott: Which of the existing funge interpreter names do you like, anyway?
18:43:32 <elliott> I think there was that C++ one I liked the name of? But I forget its name.
18:43:54 <elliott> I must have remembered it as having a better name than it does.
18:44:10 <Deewiant> Where does Shiro get its name from anyway
18:44:17 <Deewiant> (I may have asked this before)
18:44:27 <elliott> "Shiro, a special kind of mycelia
18:44:46 <elliott> How to name a Funge thing: Go on Wikipedia -> Look at something about fungi -> Pick a word that looks nice
18:44:53 <elliott> "Mycelium (plural mycelia) is the vegetative part of a fungus, consisting of a mass of branching, thread-like hyphae. The mass of hyphae is sometimes called shiro, especially within the fairy ring fungi."
18:46:50 <Deewiant> I think I'll call it "rice rotten neck"
18:47:43 <elliott> I generally prefer names that don't really mean much (but have some sort of relation to the thing) but sound nice.
18:47:57 <elliott> Either that or uber-generic names when I can't be bothered to care.
18:48:25 <Deewiant> I try to prefer names that have a sensible relation to the thing
18:48:41 <Deewiant> In some abstract sense, at least
18:49:00 <elliott> I just mean I wouldn't name an interpreter something with "funge" in it unless I was doing it under the Too Lazy To Care clause.
18:49:01 <Deewiant> So if e.g. Funge programs are fungi then interpreters would have to be things that do something with fungi
18:49:23 <kmc> mushroom reproduction is crazy
18:49:44 <kmc> the fruiting body of the mushroom produces spores, which grow into haploid mycelia
18:50:11 <kmc> if two mycelia of compatible types meet, they kinda fuse together
18:50:18 <kmc> and produce cells with two nuclei each
18:50:30 <kmc> the types are a bit like sexes then, but i think there can be more than two
18:50:57 <kmc> also in this sense they can self-fertilize like some plants
18:51:36 <kmc> currently trying to grow oyster mushrooms at home
18:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> their biology is pretty far out from either plant or animal stuff
18:54:58 <kmc> lichen are weird
18:55:18 <kmc> a symbiosis of a fungus and an alga
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18:58:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's not "visionfunge"
18:58:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, but it sounds better than "näesieni".
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19:00:30 <elliott> How's it pronounced if you don't mangle the "s?
19:00:30 <fizzie> That would be "andfish".
19:01:09 <Deewiant> IPA: [ˈjækælæ], X-SAMPA: ["j{k{l{]
19:01:33 <ogrom> jkl is normal.. IPA looks weird
19:01:34 <elliott> If only I could read either of those.
19:02:30 <fizzie> Just type it to translate.google and ask it to read it for you?
19:02:31 <Deewiant> The äs are like in stressed "an": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-an.ogg
19:02:56 <Deewiant> Or, yes, we live in the future so you could abuse that fact
19:03:11 <fizzie> Though the "Listen" button is for some reason not working for me. :/
19:03:23 <Deewiant> Worked for me and it sounded about right too
19:04:03 <fizzie> Chromium must not be multimedia enough for it.
19:04:31 <Deewiant> Works in Chromium for me as well
19:04:58 <fizzie> Whitelisted translate.google.com, now it works.
19:05:13 <fizzie> Yeah, sounds good enough.
19:05:58 <Deewiant> I'd say the only thing wrong with it is that it has strangely long pauses between syllables.
19:06:00 <elliott> Deewiant: OK, throwin' my vote in for some variant of "jakala".
19:06:04 <fizzie> I called the static analysis tool that did the fungot flowgraph for me "mycena", don't quite remember why. It had something to do with the fact that lots of those are bioluminescent.
19:06:05 <fungot> fizzie: is that: an environment is a module, change that module, and i had the first real personal shoes?
19:06:29 <fizzie> Deewiant runs on democracy.
19:06:47 <Deewiant> elliott: No, it's a dictatorship. I don't like "jakala" and I'm not going to have a non-ASCII binary name. :-P
19:07:16 <Deewiant> That's ASCII and thus completely acceptable.
19:07:23 <elliott> Deewiant: I think that I do not like you.
19:07:31 <fizzie> (It's the 8.3-compatible nfofile for some Finnish BBS.)
19:08:14 <Deewiant> "keijurengas" is too long, methinks. Why is Finnish being so difficult?
19:09:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Vaatimustenmukaiset Concurrent Befunge-98 Tulkki
19:09:23 <fizzie> There used to be some amount of fishing-themed terminology in use for BBS file-shering. MikroBitti called their file area "apaja", meaning (approximately) a place for fishing etc., and the files themselves were fish.
19:10:00 <fizzie> elliott: If you lowercase the Concurrent, it's "Vaatimustenmukaiset samanaikaisesti Befunge-98 Tulkki".
19:10:30 <elliott> fizzie: I decided to leave it broken as-is.
19:10:43 <fizzie> Is it abbreviated VCBT then?
19:11:10 <Deewiant> Yhdenmukaisuus Suostumus Befunge -98 Tulkki
19:11:25 <Deewiant> (Courtesy of good old intertran @ http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml )
19:11:44 <Deewiant> It still translates the word "I" to "I-KIRJAIN" i.e. "THE LETTER I". :-)
19:12:21 <elliott> Deewiant: Nyt kuluva asia ulkomuoto hyvin l;sitellä erityinen mieltymys kuin Google Kääntää.
19:12:30 <elliott> (I didn't know the semicolon was a Finnish letter.)
19:13:24 <Deewiant> "Now ongoing issue appearance well l;sitellä specific preference than Google Translates."
19:13:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Soveliaasti käyttäytyvä yhdessä vaikuttava Befunge-98 esittäjä". (Courtesy of a word-by-word translation performed by picking the least sensible senses from NetMOT.)
19:14:05 <elliott> It was "This looks much less fancy than Google Translate." or such.
19:14:37 <Deewiant> I last used it something like 10 years ago; its results were a source of great amusement at the time.
19:15:43 <HackEgo> kari kavampassa riisimpanasi leppuilta reviltasi aisemme arvatk-onnala poisemmästänne syysikoloissa kursumiassa
19:15:51 <fizzie> `words --befungeinterpreternames 10
19:15:55 <HackEgo> Unknown option: befungeinterpreternames
19:18:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: You might've read fantasy in Finnish at some point; what does fae/faerie get translated to?
19:20:26 <fizzie> I've read a bit of it in Finnish, but I'm not sure I've read anything that has needed that word. Offhand I'd assume something keiju-derived.
19:21:03 <fizzie> Or possibly the same as elves.
19:22:43 <fizzie> A Midsummer Night's Dream's faeries in the translations go the keiju way, I think.
19:24:00 <Deewiant> I was just wondering if there was anything clever for the collective fae-word.
19:26:08 <Deewiant> "keijupiiri" is still too long, but at least it has a computing-related piiri pun.
19:28:24 <Deewiant> Maybe "haltiapiiri", with the binary of course being called "halt".
19:28:27 <elliott> Deewiant: Does it have to be 8.3 too?
19:28:42 <fizzie> Unrelated, but I'd like to see the term "keijuvirtapiiri" be used somewhere.
19:28:45 <Deewiant> Preferably but it's not a requirement.
19:29:37 <fizzie> Speaking of translations, what are hattivatit in English?
19:30:44 <fizzie> Well, it's quite close to the Swedish.
19:32:17 <fizzie> For those not up to speed in Moomin lore, Hattifatteners are the guys in the lower-right corner of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Moomin_kuva.JPG
19:32:50 <Deewiant> They have their own article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattifattener
19:33:06 <elliott> fizzie: Who *wouldn't* be up to speed in Moomin lore?
19:33:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but the picture there just looks stupid.
19:33:54 <fizzie> The Finnish version of the article is much better.
19:34:00 <fizzie> "Näkymättömässä lapsessa Muumipapan näkemissä veneissä on aina pariton määrä hattivatteja[1], mutta toisaalta Muumipeikossa ja pyrstötähdessä tekijän kuvituksessa on kahden, neljän ja kuudenkin hattivatin veneitä[2]."
19:34:05 <fizzie> It's all so meaningful.
19:34:19 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of deep symbolism involved.
19:34:43 <elliott> You Finns and your weird language.
19:36:26 <fizzie> elliott: "In The Invisible Child the boats Moominpappa sees always carry an odd number of Hattifatteners[1], but on the other hand in Comet in Moominland the author's illustrations have boats of two, four and even six Hattifatteners."
19:37:40 <elliott> You Finns and your weird language.
19:37:54 <fizzie> That was in your weird language. Well, mostly.
19:38:28 <fizzie> "The Hemulens: Creatures that believe in order and like to boss other people around, but find it difficult to listen to anyone and lack a sense of humor. Many hemulens like collecting stuff, and have little time to think about much else."
19:38:33 <fizzie> That's the best translated name.
19:39:16 <fizzie> ("Hemuli" is one of the common pet names derived from my first name, so I have a particular affinity to them.)
19:39:32 <fizzie> (Also I don't listen to anyone and lack a sense of humor.)
19:41:49 <HackEgo> luotokiosteiskyt psyyttäviika newtonin levaltaviemmän syrjistämiä nelmäksensä tuttavampi manannesi ahdastamme soveiltani naurastavia monikseen taviansa kottelupana purjakaan arviltamia agani kunnioimina kuvotamaltansa dernisimmilla tähystitetynyt kärkkineni musmalle kuolisevästitu nauhanamme
19:42:19 <fizzie> Nauhanamme: "as our ribbon".
19:44:11 <Deewiant> I could take a leaf from Mark Jones's book and call it "hali".
19:46:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: I suppose you need an acronym expansion for it, though.
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19:47:02 <Deewiant> But it ends in "i" so that's a start.
19:47:04 <elliott> I think I am about 3.17x more likely to use software named after hugs than any other kind of software.
19:47:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Hfunge Ainterpreter Lalsoit'sconformant Iandconcurrent
19:47:29 <elliott> Henjoy Abeinglocked Linyour Imatrixofsolidity
19:48:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Hello All Little Inuits
19:48:32 <fizzie> You can call the companion piece of software "pusi" then.
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19:49:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: Calling anything "pusi" is bound to be a hit among English speakers.
19:49:23 <fizzie> It naturally goes with "hali", though.
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19:52:03 <Deewiant> Happy All-Languages* Interpreter (* only supports Funge-98)
19:52:25 <Deewiant> Humble would be better with that
19:52:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Humbly, A Language Interpreter
19:52:58 <Deewiant> Using A as part of an acronym is somewhat lame
19:54:11 <Gregor> Horrible Abomination of a Language Interpreter
19:58:01 <Deewiant> Horticulturally Associated Language Interpreter
19:58:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Happily Arcane Language Interpreter
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19:59:56 <Deewiant> I can use pusi for the JIT then (when/if).
20:00:04 <Gregor> Horrible, Abysmal Lout of an Interpreter
20:00:17 <elliott> Could also s/Happily/Handy/
20:00:27 <oerjan> pusi is a compiler for large-scale kitten dynamics, right?
20:00:39 <Deewiant> Not that I know of. I hope not.
20:00:45 <oerjan> (warning: norwegian pun)
20:01:30 <oerjan> i guess it's only a letter away from working in english too
20:04:05 <Sgeo__> Considering that that's how I would pronounce "pusi" on seeing it, I don't think it needs a letter change
20:04:31 <Gregor> I wouldn't pronounce it that way.
20:04:37 <Gregor> It looks like poo-see to me.
20:05:20 <oerjan> Gregor is such a poseur
20:11:22 <Deewiant> Humorously Academic Language Interpreter
20:13:42 <oerjan> I'm sorry, Deewiant. I'm afraid we can't have that.
20:14:34 <oerjan> `log ais523.*obscure.*reference
20:14:57 <Deewiant> Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic Interpreter, except that that HAL's a shitty acronym
20:15:05 <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
20:15:52 <elliott> Deewiant: And "programmed" is cheating
20:16:01 <Deewiant> elliott: That's one reason is shitty
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20:23:55 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:23:56 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | ¦ | `\o/´ | | |
20:23:56 <myndzi> /< >\ |\ | /| ´¸¨ >\ | /| /| /'\
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20:38:53 <Fiora> um... is there an easy way to reclaim an old nick on freenode? I'd kinda like to register this
20:39:58 <oerjan> yes, just ask a staff member. it must have been unused for 60 days, or was it weeks.
20:40:15 <Fiora> um, who's someone I could poke
20:40:25 <fizzie> oerjan: "10 weeks plus (at staffer discretion) one additional week per full year of registration, up to a maximum of five additional weeks."
20:40:31 <fizzie> You can poke any op on #freenode.
20:40:40 <oerjan> oh, they've changed it then.
20:40:42 <fizzie> I poked the one with the lowest idle time for my cloak.
20:41:01 <Fiora> Last seen : Mar 24 08:12:31 2012
20:41:06 <Fiora> um, "lowest idle time for my cloak"?
20:41:27 <oerjan> should be enough i think
20:41:34 <fizzie> Fiora: I poked the person who at the moment had the lowest idle time, for the purpose of getting my 'unaffiliated' cloak set on.
20:41:43 <Fiora> how do I figure out who has the lowest idle time?
20:41:54 <oerjan> Fiora: that's the hard part!
20:42:06 <fizzie> You can whois them randomly until you find a low enough number.
20:42:28 <Fiora> is a + okay? or do I need a @ in freenode
20:42:48 <fizzie> Well, technically you I think should do "/quote STATS p" these days.
20:42:49 <Fiora> there aren't any @s
20:42:59 <Fiora> what does that do?
20:43:05 <oerjan> Fiora: not a channel op, a network op or what they call it
20:43:19 <fizzie> It will list staff members.
20:43:35 <Bike> 'oper', isn't it
20:43:56 <Fiora> okay, I used whois, but it doesn't say idle time
20:44:05 <oerjan> Fiora: Fuchs seems to be the one
20:44:23 <fizzie> Yeah, sorry, voiced on #freenode as opposed to opped.
20:44:40 <fizzie> "All staff currently connected to the network will be voiced in #freenode. Keep in mind that all network staff are volunteers and you may sometimes have to wait for a staffer to become active. You can also issue the command /stats p from within your IRC client."
20:44:46 <fizzie> (The quote was to make it more compatible.)
20:44:56 <oerjan> to get idle times you have to use the /whois Fuchs Fuchs syntax, which asks their local server
20:44:57 <Fiora> okies let me try that
20:45:03 <fizzie> This latter list seems to be "on-call" people, so they should I guess be awake.
20:45:06 <fizzie> Fuchs is on that list.
20:45:13 <fizzie> Could be a good first attempt.
20:45:46 <Fiora> Yay, Fuchs is there
20:45:47 <oerjan> fizzie: he had the lowest idle time a minute ago
20:46:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Incidentally, it seems that the nick in question also matches the other rule: "Nicks which are at least two weeks old and which were last used less than two hours after their creation are also considered to be expired."
20:46:55 <fizzie> User reg. : Mar 24 07:21:51 2012 (35 weeks, 4 days, 13:23:35 ago)
20:46:59 <Fiora> now I have my esper nick here too
20:47:03 <fizzie> Last seen : Mar 24 08:12:31 2012 (35 weeks, 4 days, 12:32:55 ago)
20:48:57 <fizzie> My alternative grouped nicks (fizzie_, fizzie`) are all technically speaking expired, but maybe that's not a problem.
20:49:39 <oerjan> fizzie: i think they had something about not expiring a users only alternative nick
20:49:45 -!- nooodl has joined.
20:50:06 <oerjan> fizzie: but it ought to be as easy as you /nick'ing to them to reset it...
20:50:35 <fizzie> Sure, but that'd be uggly.
20:50:57 <fizzie> "If the nick you want is someone's NickServ account name, it is considered expired only when the account itself is expired." But then the FAQ doesn't mention when accounts expire.
20:51:24 <oerjan> fizzie: um it's what several of us did when the last warning about a major cleanup went out
20:52:10 <fizzie> I'll have my chauffeur log in as the alternative nicks or something.
20:52:16 <fizzie> Hey, I missed my tenth freenode registered-nick anniversary, just nine weeks ago. Forgot to celebrate. :/ :\
20:52:22 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume that only applies to plain fizzie itself. i meant that i thought there was a rule about not expiring the second last.
20:53:14 -!- fizzie_ has joined.
20:53:28 -!- fizzie_ has changed nick to fizzie`.
20:53:42 <fizzie`> Wanted to have some witnesses, too.
20:53:43 <Sgeo__> My step-mother is an idiot.
20:53:46 -!- fizzie` has quit (Client Quit).
20:54:41 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
20:54:43 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
20:55:07 <fizzie> oerjan: The stench of a _ is now lingering around your otherwise pristine "oerjan".
20:55:56 <oerjan> fizzie: that sometimes happens when i get thrown out of my linux login without being disconnected from irc, anyway.
20:56:23 <fizzie> I get the ` because of the bouncer. But it's been a while since the last time.
20:57:50 <fizzie> I usually join the Assembly demo party's IRC channel during the event, but don't add it to the autojoin list, so I stay on the channel until I drop out for natural reasons. The event was in August, but I'm still on the channel, and it's really annoying, because it's a stupid place.
20:59:45 <fizzie> But I can't just leave, since I never leave until I drop because of natural causes.
20:59:51 <fizzie> So I have to keep reading all the stupidity.
21:00:21 <oerjan> elliott: i think fizzie wants us to help crash his bouncer, or something
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21:05:27 <FreeFull> fizzie: Install a system update and reboot
21:06:13 <fizzie> It would probably be a good idea, at some point.
21:06:34 <Sgeo__> If you have infinity=-infinity and -infinity*i = infinity*i, do you get a number donut?
21:13:52 <Fiora> I guess that's sort of like... a hyperbolic doughnut? since one side of the doughnut is 0 and the other is infinity, and the distance between the two has to be infinitely diverging...?
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21:15:53 <oerjan> Sgeo__: well those are both true in the gauss sphere, at least...
21:16:44 <Sgeo__> Why is it a sphere and not a donut?
21:17:12 <oerjan> because you only add one infinity, which is all the numbers you mentioned
21:17:48 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_sphere ohhh. is there a reason to distinguish i*inf from inf?
21:17:58 <Fiora> like, what's the reason Riemann put them together?
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21:20:31 <oerjan> Fiora: well having just one infinity is basically what you need to do if you want to make f(z) = 1/z a well-behaved function over all of it, without adding extra zeroes as well...
21:21:02 <Fiora> would the "extra zeroes" be the alternate infinities?
21:21:36 <Sgeo__> You'd want 1/(i*inf) to be a different 0 from 1/(inf) I think
21:21:41 <oerjan> they would probably be infinitesimals, not infinities.
21:21:56 <Fiora> hmm. since complex numbers can be represented as magnitude * angle, wouldn't Sgeo__'s thing allow an infinite number of infinities?
21:22:02 <Fiora> since you could pick magnitude=inf, angle=anything
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21:22:26 <Sgeo__> That would make inf =/= -inf I think
21:22:44 <FreeFull_> I don't see why 1/x as x -> someinf would be different zeroes
21:22:48 <oerjan> Fiora: that would also split zeroes, which don't have a well-defined angle (and angles repeat every 2pi anyway)
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21:23:26 <Fiora> with sgeo's thing those would all be different right?
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21:23:55 <FreeFull> But I don't see why the zeroes would be different
21:23:57 <oerjan> Fiora: the riemann sphere doesn't really allow you to add infinities usefully, though. it has limitations but is still useful for many things.
21:24:24 * Fiora was going with the doughnut thing
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21:27:07 <oerjan> Sgeo__: your idea looks like you want to add a circle of infinities, one for each angle, and then identify some of them. which should give you a donut/torus if you do it correctly.
21:27:35 <oerjan> no guarantees on it having any use for complex analysis, though.
21:27:59 <Sgeo__> Wait, since when is usefulness an important thing?
21:28:39 <oerjan> you'd want to identify all of the four infinity*(+-sqrt(2)/2 +- i*sqrt(2)/2) points, i think.
21:29:04 <oerjan> and otherwise identify the left and right arc, and the upper and lower arch.
21:29:57 <oerjan> by mirroring across the y and x axes, respectively.
21:30:44 <oerjan> (reflecting through 0 would give you the real projective plane instead, ignoring the sqrt(2)/2 parts.)
21:32:19 <kmc> http://www.okcupid.com/profile/HorseEbooks
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21:34:12 <oerjan> Sgeo__: what i'm saying is that apart from infinity, -infinity, infinity*i and -infinity*i, the identified points would _not_ just be the negations.
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21:37:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well he didn't directly imply that, so i clarified that what he said could be extended to give a torus but not by identifying x and -x
21:37:40 <oerjan> well yeah he was only identifying infinities.
21:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess that's what i deserve for trying to sound clever
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21:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> did i tell you about that time i confused orientation, immersion and embedding in my analysis class
21:42:00 <oerjan> that sounds like just the thing to get your argument twisted into knots
21:42:30 <atriq> A number of my friends have been asked "ham" on Tumblr
21:42:58 <oerjan> a major ham event, i take
21:43:10 <atriq> Nobody knows (or nobody is forthcoming about) the identity of the perpetrator or perpetrators
21:43:57 <atriq> I'm the only hammed person who lives in Hexham, to my knowledge
21:44:13 <oerjan> incidentally no:ham = en:him.
21:44:28 <atriq> There's no ham en him
21:47:20 <fizzie> Hey, another Hexagon (isn't that the collective term for you?), I'll re-quote that one thing. Sorry if you logread.
21:47:23 <fizzie> "They were the pointed Saxon minuscules of the eighth or ninth century A.D., and brought with them memories of an uncouth time when under a fresh Christian veneer ancient faiths and ancient rites stirred stealthily, and the pale moon of Britain looked sometimes on strange deeds in the Roman ruins of Caerleon and Hexham, and by the towers along Hadrian's crumbling wall."
21:47:43 <fizzie> Are there many strange deeds in Hexham?
21:48:44 <atriq> Yeah, all the time
21:49:26 <fizzie> Is your moon paler than other countries' moons?
21:50:17 <Phantom_Hoover> the moon struck me as particularly bright tonight, actually
21:50:30 <oerjan> fizzie: Hexagon is the name of trondheim's gamer club, btw. if they still exist.
21:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> goodness, what are the odds of two people individually making up a word that weird
21:51:05 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the biggest naming coincidence since dennis the menace
21:51:32 <oerjan> erm you do know it's the greek term for a six-edged polygon, right?
21:51:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is an idiot
21:52:26 <oerjan> also a common shape of board game whatthehecktheyarecalled
21:53:06 <oerjan> also why isn't mezzacotta loading
21:56:03 <fizzie> Board game game boards.
21:56:30 <oerjan> no, smaller than that.
21:57:35 <oerjan> atriq: that doesn't quite apply when they're hexagonal, does it?
21:57:41 <monqy> Chinese Checkers but a Hexagon Instead of a Hexagram
21:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> don't say things like that, you know how atriq feels about monopoly
22:00:10 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_game#Common_terms seems to imply it is space/square or cell/hex, with no term being completely shape-independent
22:00:33 <atriq> I say "square" is shape-independent
22:00:44 <oerjan> ok i guess space is closest
22:00:51 <atriq> Because I'm a linguistic pragmatist
22:00:58 * oerjan says atriq needs a swat -----###
22:01:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Thery're the board's hexes when they're hexagonal.
22:03:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it has occasionally gained extra parts
22:03:59 <atriq> We're in the future.
22:04:03 <atriq> Everything's modular
22:04:07 <atriq> Modules are modular
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22:06:21 * oerjan switches atriq's corpus callosum with Phantom_Hoover's
22:07:54 <oerjan> to see if they are properly exchangeable modules, of course!
22:08:29 <atriq> This feels somewhat strange
22:09:45 <atriq> moderately more confident in my gender identity
22:10:05 <olsner> ... because Gregor ate zomgmodules?
22:10:53 <atriq> More likely, because I know have Phantom_Hoover's corpus callosum
22:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you know i'm moderately more confident in my gender identity
22:11:49 <atriq> Well, now you're probably slightly less
22:11:56 <atriq> You have my corpus callosum
22:12:20 <atriq> You're forgetting one vital thing
22:12:28 <atriq> I have your corpus callosum
22:12:56 <oerjan> but a confident queer!
22:13:29 <kmc> queer as a bag of lampreys
22:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> no, lampreys are notoriously rigid in their gender roles
22:13:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boca_de_lamprea.1_-_Aquarium_Finisterrae.JPG click for nightmare
22:14:09 <oerjan> the kind that westboro baptist church members run screaming away from
22:14:27 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/nexHu.jpg
22:14:53 * oerjan decides to click on neither link
22:16:10 <atriq> oerjan, first link is creepy, second link is someone counterprotesting the WBC
22:16:36 <kmc> i almost feel bad linking the second because, don't feed the trolls
22:17:00 <Bike> a big sign saying "fuck this guy" must have broad applicability, though.
22:17:08 <kmc> a handy thing to keep around
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22:19:22 <kmc> it's almost possible to believe that WBC is a brilliant false flag propaganda operation
22:19:45 <Bike> and then you look at their legal history?
22:19:45 <kmc> they are such an over the top repugnant caricature of anti-gay attitudes
22:20:08 <kmc> and they go on about how god hates america and protesting soldiers' funerals and such
22:20:42 -!- heroux has joined.
22:20:52 <atriq> Problem is, half of the US population seems to be a brilliant false-flag propaganda operation
22:21:01 <kmc> fred phelps has a weird history
22:21:16 <kmc> he used to be a civil rights lawyer
22:21:23 <atriq> Did you see the Chasers sketch?
22:21:58 <atriq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7iXbWsO4ik
22:21:58 <Fiora> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/TMyECzLekvI/AAAAAAAADio/awRtOYwdvEM/s1600/god+hates+figs.jpg I like this one
22:22:19 <kmc> is that the part where jesus yells at a fig tree and it dies
22:22:38 <Fiora> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/TMyEw-pli9I/AAAAAAAADiw/iYNSGP-bJJY/s1600/god+hates+figs+2.jpg
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22:23:44 <kmc> i wonder what is the point of including in the bible a story where jesus is a dick to a tree
22:23:57 <kmc> does it serve some rhetorical purpose
22:24:27 <Fiora> maybe it's just one of those things stuck in to make the fans speculate wildly and write fanfiction about it
22:24:38 <kmc> "you mean the book of mormon?"
22:24:39 <Fiora> which never gets answered in canon
22:24:44 <Bike> man have you seen the new testament, it's full of crazy shit nobody reads
22:24:51 <Bike> old testament*
22:24:58 <Fiora> "I like the books, but christianity has a /completely/ batshit fandom"
22:25:14 <Bike> monday i found out there was a whole book i'd never heard of, that just says "god hates you you fucking shitheads" repeatedly for three pages and that's it
22:25:17 <Fiora> "they're almost as crazy as supernatural fans! jeez"
22:25:32 <kmc> yeah it's great when christians advocate death penalty for homosexuality but ignore the next paragraph that prescribes death penalty for wearing the wrong fabrics or eating shellfish
22:25:45 <Bike> also, the top weirdest bible story is the one with Zipporah and foreskins
22:25:57 <Fiora> I think they're misunderstanding the quote anyways. it says a man who lies with another man should be stoned
22:26:02 <Bike> «On the way, at a place where they spent the night, the LORD met him and tried to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his feet with it, and said, "Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!" So he let him alone. It was then she said, "A bridegroom of blood by circumcision."»
22:26:13 <Fiora> it's advising them that their sex is better while high, obviously
22:26:15 <kmc> San Francisco: a man who lies with another man should get stoned
22:26:50 <atriq> I think it says "A man who lies with men like he lies with women"
22:27:04 <atriq> Which is rather specific if you think about it
22:27:06 <Bike> kmc: exodus 4:24, look it up heathen
22:27:33 <kmc> in that sense god is in good company
22:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> male bisexuals who prefer specific sex positions, at that
22:29:18 <Gregor> Male bisexuals who prefer specific sex positions, AND prefer to use the same sex positions with both sexes.
22:29:45 <Fiora> does the bible even say anything about non-heterosexual women?
22:29:52 <Gregor> Basically what God's saying is “treat men and women differently only when you fuck them”
22:29:53 <kmc> so it's okay to get an anonymous bj at the train station, but you can't bring a guy home to cuddle
22:29:58 <kmc> so... god is a closeted gay man?
22:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, no, either because girl on girl is hot or because it was the past and they hadn't realised lesbians exist yet
22:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember reading the wp article about roman attitudes to sex, it's quite amusing
22:30:38 <Bike> or because the parts in question are concerned with ritual cleanliness, and male priests have more opinions on anal than on scissoring
22:30:41 <Phantom_Hoover> as a man, the most humiliating and taboo thing you could do was cunnilingus
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22:31:00 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: but they still make a fuss about how horrible and sinful you are
22:31:02 <kmc> didn't some english queen also say that there was no need to ban female homosexuality because it was logically impossible
22:31:06 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> well that's what i meant by 'specific' // it's specific in two ways: (1) it's a lying position, and (2) it's the same for both sexes
22:31:22 <atriq> kmc, Victoria, I believe
22:31:43 <kmc> yeah that was my guess too
22:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, yeah, but what do you really think she was doing for those long years after albert died
22:32:10 <atriq> Hunting down pirates with her bare hands?
22:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> no atriq that is probably one of those stupid things you like
22:32:30 <Fiora> and apparently somehow being asexual is sinful too or something I really don't know how this works
22:32:50 <atriq> If asexuality is sinful then I am a sinner
22:33:03 <Bike> depression's sinful too. medieval commentators just had not enough to do, I think.
22:33:17 <olsner> atriq: be fruitful and multiply! or whatever it says
22:33:48 <atriq> Fiora, not aromantic, though, before that gets confusing
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22:34:10 <Fiora> atriq: neither am I
22:34:13 <olsner> if you lie with neither men nor women, I guess you lie with both the same way
22:34:21 <Fiora> (aromantic is ~20% of asexuals iirc)
22:34:49 <atriq> About half of the vocal asexuals I've met are aromantic
22:35:08 <atriq> Saying that, I've only ever met one other vocal asexual
22:35:13 <fizzie> All the asexuals are highly aromatic, however.
22:35:35 <Bike> so the asexual you've met was half aromantic, or
22:35:37 <Fiora> atriq: http://www.asexualawarenessweek.com/census/SiggyAnalysis-AAWCensus.pdf
22:35:47 <Fiora> The stats there are really interesting
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22:37:16 <Fiora> question 15 is the best though ;)
22:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> N is not worth much without further information on the population
22:38:36 <Fiora> it's true, there's probably some pretty significant bias, though they also have some stats-breakdown among the three websites
22:38:45 <Fiora> to show possible disparities
22:40:52 <Fiora> I think that agrees with past studies though...
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22:41:08 <Fiora> (i.e. "most asexual people are female")
22:42:00 <Fiora> probably some bias from it being, like, tumblr though ^^;
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22:47:13 <kmc> http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/20121123-00 a nice article about how intellectuals compete to be ignorant of sports and how this isn't actually a good thing
22:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> you have a definite habit of dragging your pet peeves into the channel, you know
22:48:37 <elliott> what kind of an animal is a peeve
22:49:56 <Bike> would have expected the title of the paper to be "anything but rap and country", kmc
22:50:14 <olsner> kmc: hmm, the statistics seem to be from the US ... I wonder how well they apply to other parts of the world
22:51:02 <olsner> oh, and now I realized that "football" in the article probably refers to the other kind of football
22:51:03 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yep
22:51:17 <kmc> as it happened though someone else sent this link to another channel just now
22:52:18 <elliott> gotta have some grumpy in your life
22:52:27 <elliott> tho i produce enough for multiple people myself
22:54:31 <olsner> oh, interesting that heavy metal is a "less educated" kind of music according to that paper, I find that about half of the geeks here are metalheads
22:55:00 <Bike> yeah, that's why i expected rap and country, that's what i'm used to nerds not liking.
22:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how in dwarf fortress the dorfs are always the 'mountain people', yet the game makes it impossible to actually embark on a mountain
22:56:21 <elliott> kmc: you should fix mosh so that irssi doesn't underline these non-links imo
22:56:52 <olsner> hmm, do you usually "embark" on mountains?
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22:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> also kmc does tend to complain about the same thing multiple times over the course of a week or so
22:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, not really, you can embark on hills but that's kind of different
22:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well to be fair so do you
22:58:37 <olsner> afaik you can only embark on journeys and vehicles
22:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i don't really notice other people repeatedly complaining about the same thing?
22:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> like it's generally 'you know what bugs me? <thing>" and then everyone says 'yeah me too' and that's that
23:00:17 <kmc> Bike: yeah me too
23:00:18 <elliott> well maybe you will complain about kmc complaining again tomorrow and I will have a concrete example
23:00:21 <elliott> i don't see the problem :p
23:00:34 <olsner> to be fair I don't think this counts purely as repeated complaint, because kmc added new information to the sports-hate-peeve with a link
23:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> it was just the point at which i felt it worth commenting on
23:05:09 <kmc> also it's a different angle than my complaint
23:05:40 <kmc> Bike: oh, the abstract of the paper says "gospel, country, rap, and heavy metal"
23:05:57 <kmc> my complaint is just that being proud of ignorance is dumb, and hypocritical coming from intellectuals
23:06:11 <kmc> mako's making a point about classism and stuff
23:06:28 <kmc> and the resolution is different too
23:06:35 <kmc> mako takes this as an affirmative reason to care about sports
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23:07:04 <kmc> i don't care whether people care about sports
23:07:12 <kmc> but i will have to think about this class argument more
23:07:26 <elliott> ugh, it did what I didn't want it to do
23:07:42 <olsner> hmm, anti-intellectualism seems a sort of similar thing
23:08:18 <Bike> kmc: oh i know, i was just making a mostly irrelevant comment on an unimportant aspect like i usually do
23:08:48 <Bike> also the mathiest guy i know is a basketball fan. maybe he can make up for my apathy to football
23:09:15 <elliott> maybe i can pay kmc to fix this shit
23:09:48 <olsner> "this shit" == lambdabot?
23:09:55 <elliott> lambdabot is just my helper
23:10:36 <olsner> just use non-shit instead of shit, it's much less shittier
23:10:49 <olsner> also non-shit doesn't need to be fixed by us
23:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sure i don't need to explain why i'm a worthy candidate
23:11:00 <elliott> apparently your shit is so shit it doesn't even tell me what shit it is
23:11:41 <elliott> olsner: gonna sue your shit
23:14:55 <elliott> why the fuck does this stuff not make sense
23:15:21 <olsner> I wonder why it doesn't respond to ctcp version, I have no recollection of configuring that
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23:18:34 <olsner> elliott: what are you trying to do?
23:18:56 <elliott> olsner: get my awaylog formatting not fucked
23:19:29 <olsner> what's an awaylog and why do you have one?
23:20:30 <elliott> i have determined that no amount of money will help olsner solve my problem
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23:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> btw i would like to express my deep hatred of differential equations
23:27:13 <Bike> what did they ever do to you
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23:29:31 <Bike> but what if you need to describe your tear to boredom ratio over time
23:29:39 <Bike> bet a diffeq would help!
23:31:53 <Bike> what if you were trapped on a desert island with only a bottle of tears and a wwii-era naval cannon aim control system
23:31:57 <Bike> what would you model it with then!
23:32:26 <olsner> you can model it with tears
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23:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, but there are no differential equations on the island to bore me to tears
23:35:38 <elliott> the tears were pre-prepared
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