00:00:15 <kmc> and then you can put coherent light in and use interference to determine the shortest path
00:00:22 <Bike> ugh you know i don't have the money for physarum machines, don't tempt me
00:00:28 <kmc> thus solving an NP-complete problem in polynomial time BUT with an exponential amount of energy :/
00:00:48 <kmc> basically you have built a parallel computer where each photon is a separate instruction pointer
00:01:04 <Bike> kmc: doubles as the marketing copy
00:01:07 <GreyKnight> "We'll just farm out the computation to whatever the universe runs on"
00:01:37 <Fiora> we can perform FFTs by using a liquid crystal screen and a laser and a lens and a CCD
00:01:45 <oklopol> can't you fit only a polynomial number of photons in a cubic meter
00:02:18 <oklopol> because then that won't help you solve what otherwise takes exponential time, at least
00:02:35 <Fiora> I think in practice it's going to be limited more by melting the optical fiber
00:02:35 <oklopol> not that i don't agree with the wow
00:03:08 <kmc> another cool thing is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWINKLE
00:03:15 <Fiora> or we can solve optimization problems by like, representing them as protein folding problems
00:04:21 <kmc> this is a prime number sieve built out of simple, independent elements that communicate with a controller by freespace optics
00:04:25 <Fiora> http://cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/twirl/
00:04:42 <kmc> yeah, that's the successor project
00:04:50 <Bike> kmc: so why is it only hypothetical?
00:05:26 <kmc> the cool trick is that you sum the outputs from these elements just by measuring the total amount of light
00:05:33 <kmc> which is far far faster than you could run a binary adder tree
00:05:46 <kmc> and you clock them by blasting the whole wafer with IR light
00:05:58 <kmc> which is far easier than widespread clock distribution
00:07:08 <GreyKnight> Twinkle, twinkle, little prime // How I wonder what you divide
00:07:21 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch GreyKnight
00:07:28 <Bike> it doesn''t scan!
00:07:35 <Fiora> lambdabot is female?
00:07:49 <oklopol> GreyKnight: best poem this year
00:07:50 <Fiora> ... for that matter, has a gender?
00:08:10 <Bike> hm. how i di-vide what you are? that's pretty sucky though
00:08:17 <GreyKnight> "Shamir has estimated that the cost of TWINKLE could be as low as $5000 per unit with bulk production." <-- I am guessing it would cost £bignum to make it non-theoretical *without* bulk production
00:08:51 <shachaf> GreyKnight: More like $bignum
00:08:57 <Bike> you do to see if it's really prime!
00:08:59 <shachaf> Which is something like half as much?!
00:09:26 <Bike> shachaf: this is computer science, constant factors are so unimportant
00:09:49 <shachaf> Bike: But every prime factors into constants...
00:10:09 <GreyKnight> (order-of-magnitude error bars are the best thing)
00:10:41 <kmc> GreyKnight: $TEXAS
00:12:16 <kmc> is there a CPAN module to use £ and € as sigils
00:12:37 <GreyKnight> they have modules to let you program in Latin, surely the above exists
00:13:11 <GreyKnight> (for when regular perl isn't opaque enough)
00:15:01 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:17:39 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
00:17:41 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
00:18:38 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
00:18:59 <kmc> shachaf: will you give me a trip report regarding whatever route you take from JFK?
00:19:52 <shachaf> Hmm, is "trip report" also a drugs thing?
00:20:08 <kmc> that's the 'original' context from which i know it
00:20:08 <shachaf> Is that why you like trains so much?
00:20:17 <shachaf> I guess that wouldn't explain why lexande likes trains.
00:20:45 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
00:20:57 <FreeFull> > fix (\x -> 1:map (gcd . (+1)) x)
00:20:59 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
00:21:23 <kmc> yes, for some trips gmaps does recommend taking MNRR
00:21:28 <oerjan> gcd takes two arguments
00:21:45 <kmc> though i would just walk from lex/53rd to Grand Central instead of trying to catch the 6
00:21:50 <kmc> it's a railroad
00:21:50 <kmc> metro north rail road
00:21:52 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
00:22:05 <FreeFull> > fix (\x -> 1:map (*2 - 1) x)
00:22:06 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
00:22:21 <FreeFull> > fix (\x -> 1:map (*2).(-1) x)
00:22:22 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num [b0], GHC.Num.Num ([[b0]] -> [[b0]]))
00:22:22 <shachaf> kmc: Once you recommended hopstop.com instead of Google Maps for NYC trips, I think?
00:22:28 <kmc> that's right
00:22:33 <kmc> let's see what hopstop says
00:23:03 <oerjan> FreeFull: that last one is wrong for at least 3 different reasons :P
00:23:38 <FreeFull> > fix (\x -> 1:map ((*2).((-)1)) x)
00:23:40 <lambdabot> [1,0,2,-2,6,-10,22,-42,86,-170,342,-682,1366,-2730,5462,-10922,21846,-43690...
00:24:19 <kmc> hopstop lets you exclude individual subway lines
00:24:22 <kmc> in case you really hate the G train
00:24:34 <FreeFull> I wonder how you would do primes
00:25:16 <FreeFull> > fix (\x -> 2:filter (\a -> a`mod`x == 0) (x+1))
00:25:17 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
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00:25:42 <FreeFull> x isn't the list, just an element
00:25:54 <GreyKnight> if you look at the entire lower list you could pull off some sort of sieve
00:26:17 <FreeFull> But I think you can only access the upper parts like this
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00:27:09 <kmc> it's the train everyone loves to hate
00:27:22 <lambdabot> nubBy eq (x:xs) = x : nubBy eq (filter (\ y -> not (eq x y)) xs)
00:27:40 <kmc> it has the newest cars in the system afaik
00:27:48 <kmc> with voice announcements by Bloomberg Radio personalities
00:28:01 <kmc> i think they do like Moscow Metro and use male voices in one direction and female in the other
00:28:55 <shachaf> Stay clear oft he closing doors, please!
00:29:38 <shachaf> Run around the block. Run for office. But don't run on the subway.
00:29:56 <GreyKnight> "Mind the gap." "The gap is old enough to mind itself, bog off."
00:32:15 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
00:32:34 <kmc> i think the newest cars on PATH might be a bit newer though
00:32:40 <oerjan> (other obligatory example)
00:32:59 <shachaf> oerjan: uhhhhhh...............
00:33:07 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
00:33:21 <oerjan> shachaf: i considered, then rejected that option
00:33:33 <shachaf> But the sequence starts with 1.
00:34:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> a0' with actual type `(t0, t1)'
00:34:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ([b0] -> [b0]))
00:34:55 <GreyKnight> starting with 0 gives you the nice boundary condition that F_0 = 0 and F_1 = 1
00:34:59 <lambdabot> [55,34,-21,-55,-34,21,55,34,-21,-55,-34,21,55,34,-21,-55,-34,21,55,34,-21,-...
00:35:15 <FreeFull> Ok, this isn't what I intended
00:35:23 <shachaf> Starting with 1 gives you the very nice condition that it's correct.
00:35:36 <oerjan> (also F_(gcd(m,n)) = gcd(F_m,F_n))
00:36:21 <shachaf> oerjan is just a monoid in the monoid of monoids.
00:37:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:43:54 <GreyKnight> > let trundle = (\init op -> fix (\x -> init:map op x)) in take 16 (trundle 1 (*2))
00:43:55 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768]
00:47:39 <shachaf> If only there was a standard library operation for that.
00:49:00 <shachaf> Well, you can't just invent an entire standard library at once.
00:49:14 <shachaf> You start with a simple base, see what people are missing, and iterate.
00:49:22 <GreyKnight> first there is the important matter of *comment syntax* to settle
00:51:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `\'
00:51:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a0))
00:52:19 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (m a0))
00:52:19 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check f...
00:52:28 <FreeFull> > Just $ do 5; return (10 :: Int);
00:52:29 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (m a0))
00:52:29 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check f...
00:52:38 <FreeFull> > Just $ do 5 :: Int; return (10 :: Int);
00:52:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m0 a0'
00:53:22 <lambdabot> "hththththththththththththththththththththththththththththththththththththt...
00:53:32 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:53:57 <FreeFull> > Just $ do 5 :: Int; 10 :: Int
00:53:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `m0 a0'
00:54:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
00:55:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: do 5 only works because the monadic type isn't checked when there is only one action
00:55:31 <shachaf> oerjan: It's hopefully not checked no matter how many actions there are.
00:55:40 <shachaf> It's just that (>>)'s type forces it.
00:56:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean a do block action
00:56:05 <shachaf> λ> let (>>) = const id in do 5; 6
00:56:41 <oerjan> oh well that redefinablesyntax thing
00:57:10 <GreyKnight> FreeFull: "do" is a special syntax and not a function, so (Just $ do) isn't anything meaningful AIUI
00:57:43 <nooodl> seriously, -XRebindableSyntax?
00:57:47 <FreeFull> :t Just $ return 5 >> return 6 :: Int
00:57:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Int' with actual type `Maybe (m0 b0)'
00:57:48 <lambdabot> In the expression: Just $ return 5 >> return 6 :: Int
00:57:53 <shachaf> Hmm, you can make that particular line work without RebindableSyntax, I think.
00:57:54 <FreeFull> :t Just $ return 5 >> return 6 :: Maybe Int
00:57:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Int' with actual type `m0 b0'
00:58:02 <FreeFull> :t Just $ return 5 >> return 6
00:58:05 <shachaf> FreeFull: You should spam lambdabot in /msg
00:58:22 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 b0))
00:58:23 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M80020794...
00:58:42 <Bike> m80020794 is my favorite type.
00:58:52 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: lambdabot behaves differently from ghci though
00:59:57 <oerjan> > Just $ return 5 >> return 6 :: Maybe (Either String Word16)
01:00:19 * shachaf feels mildly bad for that, actually.
01:01:03 <FreeFull> But that didn't use any UTF-8 that isn't also ASCII-7
01:01:09 <shachaf> I wouldn't feel bad for cheating.
01:01:13 <shachaf> Er, for cheating that way.
01:01:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you can do it with a sufficiently evil instance, of course
01:01:35 <shachaf> You need more than one, I think.
01:02:12 <oerjan> instance Num a=> Num (m a)
01:02:39 <shachaf> I think you have to define two different data types to make it work?
01:03:10 <GreyKnight> It's time for the Tuesday edition of the Type Arcana Show
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01:03:35 <shachaf> Making defaulting work is tricky.
01:03:37 <oerjan> FreeFull: THUS IT PASSED
01:04:13 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
01:04:37 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
01:04:58 <Bike> innovative bugs up in here
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01:07:22 <GreyKnight> > let trap_in_forcefield = (\P -> "⌇⌇"++P++"⌇⌇") in (trap_in_forcefield "shachaf")
01:07:22 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
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01:10:28 <shachaf> have you ever been trapped in a force field
01:10:47 <monqy> i don't think those exist
01:11:26 <Bike> ⌇⌇forcefields⌇⌇
01:11:30 <oerjan> i'm trapped in this ridiculously strong force field
01:11:54 <oerjan> it's so strong, i simply cannot afford to get off this planet
01:12:12 <monqy> must suck to be you!!!
01:12:20 <GreyKnight> ⌇⌇😻 oerjan⌇⌇ Now a smiling cat with heart-shaped eyes is trapped in the force field with you
01:12:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: you can't because you don't really *want* to, that's all!
01:13:02 <hagb4rd> omg it really is a smiling cat with heart shaped eyes
01:14:21 <oerjan> it wasn't feline very good
01:15:36 <oerjan> monqy: the gravity of the situation is unmistakeable
01:15:50 <hagb4rd> all the time i thought it's a joke
01:16:52 <shachaf> Where should I learn about reading diagrams like http://slbkbs.org/help.png ?
01:16:59 <hagb4rd> now i am little bit scared
01:17:52 <monqy> doesnt look that bad
01:18:19 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: we also discovered a few weeks back that there are not one but three penis glyphs in Unicode hth
01:18:26 <oerjan> type judgements in natural deduction notation
01:18:34 <shachaf> I don't even know the notation.
01:18:40 <Bike> GreyKnight: but no combining penis above :(
01:18:45 <monqy> you've never seen natural deduction notation?
01:19:04 <shachaf> I've seen simple versions.
01:19:21 <GreyKnight> (hagb4rd: to be fair they are all Egyptian hieroglyphs so not technically Unicode's fault :-3)
01:19:44 <GreyKnight> the hieroglyph for "penis" is guess what
01:20:06 <Bike> combining multiocular o above
01:20:26 <kmc> "Japanese hacker continues to taunt police with clue strapped to cat"
01:20:56 <GreyKnight> kmc: it's http://xkcd.com/262/ in real life :-o
01:21:43 <kmc> stupid cyberpunk future
01:22:44 <shachaf> monqy: Maybe the problem is that I don't know anything about type systems.
01:23:05 <GreyKnight> I am glad Unicode included specific codepoints for Roman numerals, I've no idea how I would write 50 without the glyph for "Ⅼ"
01:23:09 <shachaf> Do you know about type systems?
01:23:11 <monqy> shachaf: have you read "tapl"? it's a nice introduction
01:23:28 <oerjan> shachaf: hm the parts from the squiggly lines out _do_ look unfamiliar, without them most of it would be as i expect
01:23:39 <GreyKnight> shachaf: you are a haskellian how can you not know type systems?!
01:23:52 <shachaf> GreyKnight: I'm a fake. :-(
01:24:10 <monqy> my guess about the squiggly lines is it's the constraints you can derive from the typing judgment
01:24:24 <monqy> what has to unify with what
01:24:39 <monqy> (which afaict is supported by how they're used)
01:27:00 <monqy> shachaf: generally for natural deduction stuff the way i go about it is if there's something that the judgment is "about" e.g. the expression being typed, in the case of type systems, or evaluated, in the case of operational semantics, look at that bit under the line first to know what's going on, and then go from there
01:29:42 <oerjan> monqy: indeed that seems to be how to interpret the added tau ~ tau_1 condition in LETA
01:33:58 <shachaf> I guess I should read TaPL.
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01:40:30 <kmc> "A pony isn't a baby horse, it's a foal, a fucking foal is a baby horse" "Right, our guest tonight on I Don't Give A Fuck About Baby Horses is me"
01:40:44 <olsner> right, ponies are foals
01:42:55 <oerjan> hm do girls who want ponies believe that they are baby horses?
01:44:06 <olsner> they probably hope for a mishap in the pony store so they get a baby horse mistaken for a pony
01:44:28 <kmc> Mishap in the Pony Store would be a good name for an emo band
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01:45:22 <hagb4rd> related: http://emobandname.com/
01:46:25 <kmc> i got "Drunk Hungry Sex"
01:46:33 <kmc> also "Bullied Your Family"
01:47:36 <Bike> That hardly sounds very emo.
01:48:40 <hagb4rd> well.. it hardly beats "mishap in the pony store"
01:51:04 <kmc> "New party logo: A kitten in a sock, sitting on a motorway shouting 'Help me, help me, I don't know what to do'"
01:59:35 <hagb4rd> this reminds of a southpark episode in which they claimed the scripts of "family guy" beeing written by a group of seals randomly picking up some coloured balls representing pop-cultural-references
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02:05:12 <kmc> "PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET * misspelling of "BRACKET" in character name is a known defect"
02:06:00 <shachaf> 1D0C5 BYZANTINE MUSICAL SYMBOL FHTORA SKLIRON CHROMA VASIS
02:06:02 <shachaf> * misspelling of "FTHORA" in character name is a known defect
02:06:26 * shachaf is more concerned with LAMDA.
02:06:56 <shachaf> MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC SMALL LAMDA
02:07:51 <oerjan> * misspelling of "LAMBADA" in character name is a known defect
02:07:53 <kmc> but is it a known defect??
02:08:26 <shachaf> (The regular λ is also spelled LAMDA.)
02:08:57 <olsner> if they don't know how to spell something, I guess they can call it an unknown defect
02:09:18 <Bike> they can't change the names once they're set down, can they?
02:09:46 <olsner> they can start consistently misspelling the name
02:14:24 <shachaf> monqy: do you know about linear algebra
02:14:52 <monqy> shachaf: at lest some about it. what about it?
02:15:06 <shachaf> monqy: i don't know i don't know much about it :(
02:15:13 <shachaf> and elliott doesn't either? unless he does
02:15:22 <shachaf> and anyway should i know things about it
02:15:52 <FireFly> It's fun, especially if you like writing raycasters and raytracers and stuff
02:16:12 <monqy> my knowledge of linear algebra is more on the theory side than the appication side
02:17:22 <olsner> derivative esolang time: vgsynogvwgfyjv is itflabtijtslwi but with T instead of G
02:18:28 <oerjan> expect your oenva to swapped with an oevpx
02:19:20 <FireFly> that works when pluralised
02:19:29 <hagb4rd> hey regret makes a perfect anagram tooo
02:20:48 <olsner> oerjan: I thought the brickbraining only applied for BF derivatives
02:21:36 <hagb4rd> we're just so lonely and bored
02:22:05 <hagb4rd> and we don't even have hackego to play with
02:23:19 <olsner> find a nice character that looks like a flipped G, swap / and \ and you can get iwlstjitbalfti
02:23:36 <FireFly> shachaf: http://hastebin.com/jelivupufu
02:24:11 <shachaf> I think your words file is better than mine.
02:25:18 * FireFly uses the words-insane package from AUR
02:25:26 <FireFly> or rather, the words file it provides
02:25:44 <shachaf> Hmm, find me a good Debian package.
02:26:28 <FireFly> You could just look at the pkgbuild and grab the file from the same source
02:26:32 <FireFly> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/wo/words-insane/PKGBUILD
02:26:57 <FireFly> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/wordlist/scowl-7.1.tar.gz it seems
02:33:47 <oerjan> ^rot13 mercury venus jupiter saturn uranus neptune
02:33:47 <fungot> zrephel irahf whcvgre fnghea henahf arcghar
02:34:28 <oerjan> ^rot13 titan enceladus ganymede eris vesta ceres
02:34:28 <fungot> gvgna raprynqhf tnalzrqr revf irfgn prerf
02:34:55 <oerjan> the famous czech version control
02:41:11 <hagb4rd> guess i'll watch another space-realated-documentation and try to fall asleep
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02:56:40 <shachaf> I guess most of these are well-known.
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03:02:49 <zzo38> I have read it somewhere; "abjurer" and "nowhere" is apparently the longest ROT13 pair in ordinary English words.
03:03:50 <kmc> that's neat
03:04:34 <Bike> I don't even remember what "abjurer" means. A summoning magician? Some kind of legal thing?
03:04:38 <lambdabot> *** "abjurer" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:04:49 * kmc falls over laughing
03:05:06 <kmc> apparently it means "to solemnly renounce"
03:05:07 <Bike> fuuuuuck youuuuu
03:05:09 <lambdabot> *** "abjure" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:05:10 <lambdabot> v 1: formally reject or disavow a formerly held belief, usually
03:05:10 <lambdabot> under pressure; "He retracted his earlier statements about
03:05:10 <lambdabot> his religion"; "She abjured her beliefs" [syn: {abjure},
03:05:11 <lambdabot> {recant}, {forswear}, {retract}, {resile}]
03:05:31 <Bike> That's, like. How do you do that typically?
03:05:37 <Bike> I want "abjurer" on business cards now
03:05:50 <lambdabot> *** "abjuration" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:05:51 <lambdabot> n 1: a disavowal or taking back of a previous assertion [syn:
03:05:51 <lambdabot> {retraction}, {abjuration}, {recantation}]
03:33:39 <kmc> "California man says he can drive in carpool lane with corporation papers"
03:33:44 <kmc> because corporations are people!
03:33:53 <kmc> this is masterful law-trolling
03:34:36 <Bike> is that in court yet?
03:34:59 <coppro> kmc: hahahahahahahahaha
03:35:31 <shachaf> Corporations are people, but corporation papers aren't corporations.
03:52:36 <kmc> then maybe bodies aren't people
03:54:37 <shachaf> Yes, but your soul is in your body.
03:55:09 <zzo38> Your soul is not a physical object though; how can it have a physical location?
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03:55:28 <Bike> if they get a medieval theologian in court i will be appeased
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04:05:04 <zzo38> But I also do not think whether your soul is a physical object is relevant to the case, anyways.
04:38:47 <zzo38> Someone once told me what they thought Canadian chess was, which was that the bishops are replaced by beavers, and that the king can use the gun, but only if he has a license.
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05:40:56 <Sgeo> I should really grab all my college stuff off their servers
05:45:54 <kmc> zzo38: how far does the king shoot?
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06:03:11 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know. Someone just said these things; not the details.
06:03:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Does the king need a license in American chess?
06:05:23 <zzo38> shachaf: I know how to play the actual games called Canadian chess and American chess, and in neither game can the king shoot (American chess doesn't have a king). And it also isn't what those other people suggested to me.
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06:06:37 <zzo38> I don't know that one.
06:07:19 <zzo38> They don't seem to have that one.
06:07:39 <zzo38> You can make up a variant called "Finnish chess" if you want to.
06:08:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Does the king have a gun?
06:09:12 <zzo38> shachaf: I think in some variants there is the king having a gun.
06:09:26 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/difftaking.dir/kingwithshotgun.html
06:10:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Is there a variant where you can take the king?
06:10:58 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/usualeq.dir/ktkprobl.html
06:11:28 <quintopia> zzo38: the canadian chess thing was just a joke, you know. the author knew that no such thing existed.
06:12:17 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, I am sure you are correct; they were just suggesting a game like that, because I told them about Canadian chess, and they didn't know the actual Canadian chess game.
06:12:34 <Bike> what's actual canadian chess like?
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06:13:11 <zzo38> If you capture opponent's pieces, you have to place it on a vacant square as part of your turn. The color and kind of piece remains the same.
06:14:07 <quintopia> i doubt a computer could play that one very well
06:14:20 <quintopia> it has a branching factor higher than arimaa
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06:15:54 <quintopia> i once invented a game on a chessboard
06:17:40 <quintopia> iirc, if the queen got captured, it could swap with any other piece to be captured in its place
06:19:38 <quintopia> but i think an interesting variant would be: if a piece is captured and its starting square is open, it returns there instead. perhaps you would have to label all the pieces to remember where they started
06:20:10 <quintopia> zzo38: have you ever played bughouse
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06:32:06 <zzo38> quintopia: I have played bughouse on computer once, I think, against the computer. I forget if I win or lose though
06:32:35 <zzo38> I think the variant where pieces return to their starting square if it is vacant, is exist too, and is called Circe.
06:33:33 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/difftaking.dir/circe.html
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06:34:21 <zzo38> It is possible to label the pieces (I believe if you label the pieces it is called "heraldic"), but it is different to how Circe is played.
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06:35:44 <Bike> what, normally you just have to remember?
06:37:18 <zzo38> Bike: No; in Circe, a rook/knight/bishop is placed on a square of the same color as it is currently on, and a pawn is placed on the same file it is currently on.
06:38:22 <zzo38> However, you could also play Heraldic Circe where they do go back to their actual starting position instead.
06:39:58 <zzo38> My brother and myself have made up many chess variants, though.
06:46:16 <kmc> what is the best one?
06:50:53 <zzo38> However, some of them are: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSblandchess http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSlatrumcolorumc http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MS123456chess http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MS123456chess
06:51:20 <zzo38> Here is one that me and my brother have invented simultaneously: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithcheck
06:54:17 <Sgeo_> DrRacket freezes way too much for my comfort
06:56:14 <zzo38> This is a game that I don't know the inventor; someone who described it to me, says someone else described it to him and he does not know who invented it. But this game was not already documented, so I put it onto the computer. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithquant
06:58:10 <Bike> telefrag chess, eh
06:58:25 <zzo38> How do you play telefrag chess?
06:58:33 <kmc> is a telefrag where you teleport inside someone else and explode them?
06:58:39 <kmc> that was the best in unreal tournament
06:59:13 <Bike> yeah, that's a telefrag. double bishop high-falutin' action reminded me of it
06:59:21 <kmc> bishop on bishop action
06:59:36 <kmc> 123456 Chess reminds me of 123456 Pokémon
07:00:14 <zzo38> What is 123456 Pokemon?
07:00:21 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVUXLBJg14
07:02:15 <Bike> dig the outfit
07:05:10 <zzo38> I have made up a Pokemon card puzzle requiring to retreat three times. Is there a situation which requires retreating more than three times?
07:08:01 <zzo38> Sometimes even in an actual game, I have retreated twice in one turn (even if not confused), but not more than that.
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07:49:18 <zzo38> Can you understand this Pokemon card puzzle? gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/0textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.3 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.3
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08:22:52 <zzo38> The other ones were you have to win before your opponent's turn; this one is different.
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08:40:49 <Sgeo_> "The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland "
08:40:53 <Sgeo_> It's starting to scare me away
08:41:50 <Bike> what, schemeland?
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08:47:11 <Sgeo_> "Basically, the R6RS standard is the result of a compromise between the partisans of explicit phasing - people wanting to control in which phases names are imported - and the partisan of implicit phasing - people wanting to import names at all phases, always.
08:47:12 <Sgeo_> A compromise was reached to make unhappy both parties."
08:48:59 <monqy> r6rs the perfect scheme for adventuring
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09:31:56 <Taneb> I'd like to put my weight behind Underload for the next featured language
09:32:25 <Taneb> It's got one of the best articles on the wiki, and is a really interesting language
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10:48:46 <GreyKnight> Huh, Gregor gives two responses for CTCP TIME... and they're in different timezones...
10:50:35 <fizzie> Let's see if that confuses even machines.
10:50:37 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Tue Jan 8 05:50:36
10:51:01 <fizzie> Probably just looked at the first one. :/
10:51:26 <GreyKnight> Yeah that's consistent with the first response I got
10:52:56 <GreyKnight> Sgeo_: the TOC of "Adventures..." seems to consist almost entirely of macro stuff
10:53:26 <fungot> GreyKnight: they're easy. that's why i prefer to just learn
10:54:06 <fizzie> It doesn't answer to CTCPs at all. :/
10:54:22 <fizzie> I have two VERSION replies, but just one TIME.
10:55:46 <GreyKnight> I got *four* VERSION replies from Gregor
10:56:13 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is I AM ABOVE SUCH MORTAL THINGS AS TIME
10:56:39 <lambdabot> A man who has never lost himself in a cause bigger than himself has missed one of life's mountaintop experiences. Only in losing himself does he find himself. Only then does he discover all the
10:56:40 <lambdabot> latent strengths he never knew he had and which otherwise would have remained dormant.
10:57:56 <GreyKnight> I take the Granny Weatherwax approach to finding myself
10:58:51 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Next you'll get eight PING replies, then 16 USERINFO replies, 32 FINGER replies, and so on.
10:58:54 <Jafet> You were underneath yourself?
10:59:20 <GreyKnight> Most people have their eyes at the top
10:59:32 <Jafet> 1048576 DCC handshakes. Oh wait.
11:00:15 <fizzie> And on the final square of the chessbord there were 2^63 XDCC file listings.
11:05:34 <GreyKnight> (two of the version replies were xchat running on different versions of Linux, one was "bip-0.8.8", the other was "Microsoft IRC# 2013 64-bit (Windows 9 Developer Pre-Alpha Release, x64, 1.5GB RAM)"
11:05:52 <fizzie> Hey, another bip user.
11:06:17 <GreyKnight> Well, assuming *any* of those were true :-P
11:06:17 <fizzie> I have a feeling that the last one might not be 100% truthful.
11:07:19 <GreyKnight> The xchats claim to be running under different Linux kernel versions so there are more lies afoot!
11:07:25 <Fiora> Yeah, jeez. only 1.5 gigabytes of RAM?
11:07:42 <fizzie> GreyKnight: They would probably be running on different machines, then?
11:07:48 <fizzie> I mean, bip *is* a bouncer.
11:08:01 <GreyKnight> Fiora: If Windows 9 can run with that much I will eat my hat :-U
11:08:19 <GreyKnight> fizzie: disclaimer: I don't know what bip is or does
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11:08:55 <fizzie> It does what IRC bouncers usually do.
11:08:56 <Jafet> xchat's VERSION prints the kernel version?
11:09:20 <fizzie> Runs as a daemon, lets you connect N clients, broadcasts the stuff to all of them.
11:09:23 <GreyKnight> fizzie: disclaimer: I don't know what IRC bouncers are or do
11:09:43 <fizzie> Jafet: It's to make life of a mIRC warrior easier. You know what scripts to run.
11:09:59 <Jafet> It's the best way to prevent your nick from being taken
11:10:00 <Deewiant> Sure it's not the version it was compiled on, or something?
11:10:33 <FireFly> Pretty sure it's the one it's running on
11:10:37 <GreyKnight> [Gregor VERSION reply] xchat 2.8.8 Linux 3.1-0.slh.5-aptosid-amd64 [x86_64/800.50MHz/SMP]
11:11:00 <GreyKnight> [Gregor VERSION reply] xchat 2.8.8 Linux 3.1-5.slh.2-aptosid-amd64 [x86_64/800.50MHz/SMP]
11:11:17 <fizzie> I like the megahurtz display too.
11:11:31 <GreyKnight> It gives a MHz number there so I assume "running"
11:12:07 <GreyKnight> fizzie: "what's the most irrelevant thing we could put in a VERSION reply?"
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11:12:55 <Jafet> You wouldn't want to chat with someone who's on a slow machine, would you?
11:13:06 <Taneb> Depends on the person
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11:13:16 <fizzie> GreyKnight: I mean, it does kind of mean you don't have to keep pasting your vpenis.sh score so often.
11:14:34 <Jafet> When the other person is on a different frequency, the conversation is over.
11:14:51 <fizzie> Vibrational frequency.
11:14:57 <GreyKnight> So, let's review. Gregor has two xchats running three timezones apart, with a tee to tie them both together. There is also some sort of joke VERSION reply involved.
11:15:21 <FireFly> Sure, nothing wrong with that
11:15:32 <fizzie> GreyKnight: And Gregor itself is kind of a probability distribution spread all over the globe.
11:15:49 <FireFly> A year ago I'd have reported three or four VERISON replies (although no lies)
11:15:49 <Jafet> Gregor has three irc clients, two running in timesliced virtual machines, one with a joke version (clearly the one he actually uses), connected to a bouncer
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11:15:55 <fizzie> Or maybe that was electrons.
11:16:02 <GreyKnight> I would addquote that but SOMEBODY hasn't fixed HackEgo yet
11:16:11 <FireFly> Spread over two timezones quite far apart (a US one for the VPS, and my local swedish one for my clients connected to it)
11:16:21 <Jafet> HackEgo is kind of a probability distribution
11:17:01 <fizzie> Our friend fungot here has a lying hostname.
11:17:02 <fungot> fizzie: if you enforce monospacing, it's the buzzwords.
11:17:16 <GreyKnight> Jafet: we only get two PING and TIME replies, which makes me think the joke VERSION doesn't actually correspond to a real client
11:17:18 <fizzie> It says fis@selene.zem.fi, but that's just a ssh -L -- in reality it's running on momus.zem.fi.
11:17:42 <Jafet> fungot, you vicious charlatan
11:17:43 <fungot> Jafet: ( and true more...)
11:17:45 <GreyKnight> (Or maybe Microsoft IRC# doesn't support CTCP PING/TIME)
11:18:35 <Jafet> Perhaps Gregor has turned off ping and time replies to thwart would-be assailants
11:18:42 <Jafet> The xchats are cunning decoys
11:20:07 <GreyKnight> Hm for maximum acronymicity let's go with CSI:GNU:Linux
11:20:40 <fizzie> I'm technically speaking in the "CSI-speech" project.
11:21:52 <fizzie> Or I guess they spell it "CSI-Speech", with an uppercase S, in official materials.
11:21:59 <fizzie> I don't remember what it stands for.
11:22:02 <fizzie> The I is for inversion.
11:22:14 <GreyKnight> Is that trying to translate technobabble to English
11:24:17 <fizzie> In the way that both the strings "fizzie" and "Judge Dredd" have one or more letters "e" in them.
11:24:23 <fizzie> That's about the extent of the similarities.
11:24:48 <Jafet> > "fizzie" `intersect` "Judge Dredd"
11:25:02 <Jafet> > "Jafet" `intersect` "Judge Dredd"
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11:25:47 <GreyKnight> You also both hunt down lawbreakers and sentence them
11:26:29 <Jafet> I find trial programs and execute them
11:27:02 <fizzie> > "fungot" `intersect` "Judge Dredd"
11:27:03 <fungot> fizzie: and libc provides for it. heck, even ( macro ( fnord this lump of rumbling orange fur decides to budge.) possibly being less than ( expt 2 23) ( last 45)) is
11:27:32 <fizzie> fungot: What are you talking about?
11:27:43 <Jafet> > "Judge Dredd" `intersect` "President"
11:27:59 <fizzie> Vote Judge Dredd for Presidredd.
11:30:39 <GreyKnight> fungot: (defmacro (rumbling-lump-of-fur colour) ...) ?
11:30:40 <fungot> GreyKnight: as i said. fnord is fnord and you'll have to use mzscheme, which is important for my program is an emulator for mit's cadr.
11:31:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:31:28 <GreyKnight> Oh I forgot the fnords, sorry. I didn't realise they were so important.
11:31:44 <Jafet> (thinks fungot (speak us (like this)))
11:31:45 <fungot> Jafet: i suspend to disk most of the attempts at radical open-source os projects end up as:
11:33:49 <Jafet> End up in a suspended state
11:33:54 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be so pessimistic. :/
11:33:55 <fungot> fizzie: i haven't understood the concept of lie isn't obvious either.) shrug
11:34:22 <Jafet> fungot refuses to shield our human minds from the truth
11:34:22 <fungot> Jafet: you don't need a version of lambda that curries, and assume the program got stuck in a room definition in calling it.
11:35:38 <GreyKnight> Lambda doesn't curry, and your program is stuck in a room
11:36:20 <GreyKnight> Hm switch room for IO monad and you're close to Haskell
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12:00:20 <GreyKnight> Is it known what sort of computing system could solve the TM-halting problem? (Other than by trivial definition)
12:02:19 <GreyKnight> Feather can't AIUI since it only uses continuations to give the *appearance* of time travel
12:02:20 <GreyKnight> Whereas TwoDucks presupposes time travel capabilities and just puts them to use
12:03:19 <Fiora> real-number computers can, I think
12:05:24 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malament-Hogarth_spacetime This one too
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12:24:18 <FireFly> There's also banana scheme
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12:40:10 <GreyKnight> The M-H thing is new on me, pretty nice
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12:50:16 <fizzie> Wow, a system with a non-UTF-8 default locale.
13:01:11 <Taneb> Well, I was wrong. That was paedophilia
13:01:28 <Taneb> Even if the younger is over 13 and it's consensual
13:02:28 <Taneb> #what I do in my spare time
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13:43:55 <Jafet> So, the Malement-Hogarth spacetime is notable because, if it existed, it would be cool.
13:45:43 <Jafet> Like carbon nanotube monofilament, I suppose.
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13:48:02 <GreyKnight> Jafet: also like pokémon (except those don't get a WP article :-( )
13:48:32 <Taneb> I don't think Pokemon existing would be cool
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13:48:37 <Jafet> http://www.rarecandytreatment.com/comics/1246650/the-re-bustening/
13:48:43 <Taneb> Imagine having 6 foot tall wasps
13:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> this is more a symptom of how terrifying the reals are than anything else
13:48:58 <Taneb> And 10 year olds being able to tame gods
13:49:09 <GreyKnight> Actually some pokémon would be nightmare fuel if they existed
13:49:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember seeing some drawings of realistic pokemon, they were terrifying.
13:52:14 <Sgeo_> What are the reals doing that's terrifying?
13:52:24 <Sgeo_> Besides mostly being indescribable
13:53:29 <Taneb> There's so damn many of them
13:53:40 <Taneb> I tried to count them once, but I could barely even get started
13:54:07 <fizzie> Taneb: Did you count as many as there are integers, at least?
13:54:28 <Taneb> fizzie, yes, yes I did
13:54:37 <Taneb> I thought that would be all of them, but it wasn't
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13:56:35 <Taneb> e^pi + 7 would be the least interesting number there is, were it not for the fact that it's e^pi + 7
13:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> although the only obvious way of counting to it is only counting by a very generous definition
13:59:16 <Jafet> fromGödel <$> [0..]
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14:00:15 <Sgeo_> Taneb, too easy to describe to be uninteresting
14:00:27 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, is the reason you reconnect all the time because you are using crappy ireland internet
14:01:08 <GreyKnight> <GreyKnight> Actually some pokémon would be nightmare fuel if they existed
14:02:19 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Perhaps you should invest in one of those bouncers. (Extra benefits: you get people analysing your CTCP replies.)
14:02:55 <Sgeo_> In case anyone ever doubted that the government is a game of nomic http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-07/why-platinum-coin-opponents-are-all-wrong.html
14:03:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
14:04:13 <Sgeo_> (Basically: Some law about the President being able to issue commemorative coins does not have a maximum denomination. Therefore, political consequences)
14:04:15 <Phantom__Hoover> i got it as a trophy in ssbm and when i read the description i was like what the FUCK
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14:06:23 <Taneb> There should be a #esoteric nomic
14:06:59 <GreyKnight> Phantom__Hoover: I'm not Gracenotes but yes that is pretty horrifying too
14:07:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, only if the language for rule specification is esoteric
14:07:34 <GreyKnight> Sgeo_: IMAO governments could only be improved by acknowledging their game nature :-)
14:08:29 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, English is pretty esoteric, as is Finnish
14:08:45 <GreyKnight> Taneb: all rules must be programs in any esolang. A statement (including proposals etc) by any player is valid if it is accepted by all rule-programs.
14:09:02 <Taneb> I'd vote against that rule
14:11:54 <Sgeo_> Must...not...be...sarcastic...
14:12:11 <Taneb> Prime-numbered rules do not apply on the first Thursday in a month
14:12:14 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm thinking some sort of formal logic with really obtuse rules
14:13:07 <Jafet> Phantom__Hoover: that's not very specific
14:13:09 <Sgeo_> I didn't eat dinner last night. I was scared of being too loud
14:13:38 <Sgeo_> Will eat dinner for breakfast
14:14:16 <Sgeo_> I live in an apartment building. Apparently there have been complaints about noise late at night and early in the morning
14:14:49 <Taneb> Some people live at school
14:15:15 <Taneb> Or 6 feet underground in a small wooden box
14:15:21 <Taneb> Nobody lives there
14:15:26 <Taneb> Not for very long, at least
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14:15:56 <Sgeo_> `welcome WeThePeople
14:15:57 <GreyKnight> http://www.rarecandytreatment.com/comics/1197860/whos-watching-the-watchman/ <-- more creepy pokémon
14:16:24 <Sgeo_> Oh, huh, HackEgo's gone
14:27:20 <GreyKnight> laser cannons but still no flying cars: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20944726
14:28:52 <Jafet> GreyKnight: http://www.hammacher.com/Product/11812
14:29:06 <Jafet> The reason we can't have flying cars is because we're too dumb to fly them
14:29:35 <Jafet> (Descent was a secret government project to study its feasibility. The result was strongly negative. Now you know.)
14:30:09 <Phantom__Hoover> Jafet, descent's that thing that freespace 1 was ostensibly a sequel to, right
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14:32:03 <GreyKnight> I thought Descent II was the sequel to Descent :-I
14:32:43 <Sgeo_> I almost jumped for joy when googling Tremulous and it said 1.2 was almost ready
14:32:53 <Sgeo_> Than I read that it was waiting for sounds. Which it has been for years
14:33:04 <Jafet> I should make a game called Sequel
14:33:14 <Jafet> Also, that's not a very cool laser cannon
14:34:08 <Sgeo_> wat http://www.causes.com/causes/809798-convince-president-obama-to-play-tremulous
14:35:10 <Phantom__Hoover> Jafet, is http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1188/homesick2.png a cool enough laser cannon for you
14:36:20 <Jafet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQRIjzW-kg0
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15:32:27 <FireFly> @tell zzo38 (re. puzzle.1) You only need two retreats I think: http://hastebin.com/wohodetece
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15:48:50 <elliott> 21:52:27: <FreeFull> oerjan: `run runs it in bash
15:48:50 <elliott> 21:52:41: <FreeFull> And if everything got deleted, it wouldn't show up, would it
15:48:59 <elliott> does he figure out how hackego's sandboxing works eventually
15:49:04 <elliott> or is reading this log going to be unending torment and agony
15:49:13 <shachaf> elliott: well HackEgo crashed
15:49:18 <shachaf> so maybe he was right?????
15:50:16 <elliott> 22:12:53: <kmc> damn this cough syrup is strong
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15:52:08 <elliott> 22:24:33: <Bike> GreyKnight: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/blackboard.png behold
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15:54:35 <elliott> 23:08:50: <kmc> i've not found this to be a major problem
15:54:35 <elliott> 23:09:10: <kmc> likewise I am able to mentally switch between keyboard layouts
15:54:38 <elliott> 23:10:25: <kmc> people sometimes try to dissuade others from learning Dvorak on the basis that it is impossible to know two keyboard layouts
15:54:41 <elliott> 23:10:41: <kmc> but it's not true in my experience, or in the experience of millions of bilingual computer users
15:54:44 <elliott> kmc: Doesn't this contradict your argument against Colemak?
15:56:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:56:36 <elliott> `addquote <hagb4rd> what is this set? sounds like shakespear <fizzie> Yes, that's what people often say about Chrono Trigger.
15:57:37 <shachaf> elliott: The bot's not here.
15:57:49 <shachaf> I guess oerjan (helloerjan!) will logread this later and add quotes?
15:58:22 <Jafet> But how can he paste the logs without HackEgo?
15:59:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:59:36 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
15:59:37 <fungot> FireFly: for file in my code. i'm certain that everyone overlooks is that
16:00:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:00:22 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
16:00:26 <fungot> shachaf: can also but lunch will only b ready at 1 smth 2... u hungry? does it make your belly? how goes it loverboy. i hope they don't turn my phone off by then. before you created one like you suggested to me about the irrational. just like that! life is nt abt rs coffee at ccd,bt many frenz but they dunno u la?mama? i dun understand wat is it trying to talk back
16:00:39 <shachaf> it makes my belly, fungot.
16:00:39 <fungot> shachaf: near room wait
16:00:46 <Sgeo_> What a conveniently named function
16:01:03 <Sgeo_> It's annoying to type
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16:01:40 <FireFly> Add ∀ to your keyboard layout then
16:02:05 * FireFly has it on altgr+shift+å (å being on the qwerty position for q)
16:02:26 * shachaf has it on Ctrl-Shift-U 2200 Space
16:02:56 * FireFly would appreciate a unicode-codepoint-entering mode that completes
16:03:05 <FireFly> that completes character names for you*
16:03:35 <FireFly> I haven't used agda-mode, so I wouldn't know
16:06:01 <FireFly> http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=Docs.EmacsModeKeyCombinations ← this doesn't seem related to unicode input
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16:38:33 <SirCmpwn> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/bf-irc-bot/pull/1
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16:56:11 <hagb4rd> @ask gregor could you please check what happened to HackEgo?
16:58:04 <hagb4rd> is gregor the only one who has access to that ominous sandbox?
17:00:34 <hagb4rd> open the gates! you evil scoundrel
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17:16:19 <FireFly> SirCmpwn: oh, you've found your way here
17:16:34 <FireFly> I presume you've seen fungot's source, then
17:16:34 <fungot> FireFly: same to me. leogoh sounds to me that u don't care enough to stop me... i ll seeyou! nomnomnom!then studying. anyways i vil nt so met some hadsome boys. i even told mark in my dream
17:16:59 <Taneb> FireFly, the migration from #0x10c-dev to here is mostly my fault, I'm afraid
17:17:12 <FireFly> Shrug, I don't care much :p
17:17:47 <shachaf> Taneb: You mentioned #esoteric in that channel?
17:18:05 <Taneb> Specifically, HackEgo's quote feature
17:28:35 <fungot> SirCmpwn: shal i tel u dat problem! happy vinayaka nagar.. get it from me) has to leave not long ago? but it's up...
17:28:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
17:28:52 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:28:54 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
17:29:02 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
17:29:11 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
17:29:24 <FireFly> Considering its functionality, and it seeing daily usage, it's fairly impressive I think
17:29:52 <kmc> shachaf: you don't like penny arcade?
17:30:13 <shachaf> kmc: Not especially, but then I haven't read much of it.
17:30:18 <shachaf> Maybe it's good if you read it.
17:30:40 <SirCmpwn> is befunge difficult to code in (i.e. does it have good scemantics and such) or is it just a novelty because it's a grid
17:30:52 * kmc interprets that sentence two ways
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17:31:36 <kmc> i think it's hit kind of a slump recently
17:31:38 <kmc> but it's pretty good overall
17:31:58 <FireFly> Well, it's certainly less difficult than brainfuck in the sense that.. it has "higher-level" commands, so to speak
17:32:01 <shachaf> I didn't mean you as in you.
17:32:09 <shachaf> I mean, maybe if one reads more of the comic, one finds it to be good.
17:32:30 <kmc> i figured that's what you meant
17:32:50 <FireFly> But I guess it has its own set of difficulties, what with using fungespace for both code and storage
17:33:20 <kmc> those guys are now doing approximately a billion things besides the comic
17:35:26 <kmc> they started a major charitable organization and a few gigantic gaming conventions
17:36:32 <kmc> and they've filmed a reality-TV-style "america's next webcomic artist" show called "Strip Search"
17:38:54 <kmc> also Paramount Pictures is making an animated film based on a single PA strip
17:39:12 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: I remember there was some thing where if you had an oracle that gave you the Nth digit of Chaitin's constant for your machine, you'd have a halting solver
17:39:18 <elliott> I'm glad you added "Pictures" there. Otherwise I'd be confused.
17:39:30 <elliott> Fiora: yeah, that's pretty much the definition of chaitin's number in fact
17:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> same applies for a machine that tells you if an arbitrary diophantine is solvable
17:39:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's a lot more magical though.
17:40:10 <elliott> As in, an oracle that just gives you some digits seems like a lot less to ask.
17:40:32 <kmc> i don't think anyone has done better than penny arcade in terms of turning a webcomic into a major business venture in several domains
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17:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> the thing that really boggles me is that the computable reals are uncomputably countable
17:40:56 <kmc> i... don't know anything about homestuck
17:41:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's not so weird.
17:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oh and also there's the thing where you can have a function that grows slower than any computable function
17:41:48 <FreeFull> It only has one panel per page
17:41:58 <kmc> slower than any strictly increasing computable function?
17:41:59 <Taneb> Homestuck really only has webcomic, shirts, books, and upcoming video game
17:42:10 <Taneb> Not as wide as Penny Arcade
17:42:13 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: Is it uncomputable because it would take forever?
17:42:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you seen http://r6research.livejournal.com/19619.html
17:42:18 <Taneb> And probably not as deep either
17:42:20 <kmc> yeah, plenty of webcomics sell swag
17:42:40 <kmc> that is the standard way to monetize a webcomic and a fair number of people have done ok with it
17:42:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: really he thing is that all e.g. types in Coq look countable to us
17:42:59 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, ok so basically it's not so hard to demonstrate that there are functions which grow faster than any computable function
17:43:01 <Taneb> Not many that had a 2.5 million dollar kickstarter to fund a video game
17:43:03 <elliott> because the set of expressions is countable
17:43:06 <kmc> that's cool
17:43:35 <Taneb> Which is going to be ridiculous simply because of the complexity of Homestuck
17:43:39 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: I think there are more of those than there are computable functions
17:44:16 <shachaf> Ugh, plane ticket prices have gone up.
17:44:24 <kmc> what kind?
17:44:45 <Taneb> I've got no idea if anyone's talking to me
17:44:57 <FreeFull> The fantroll that someone paid for doesn't seem to have appeared yet
17:45:03 <kmc> Taneb: i meant that the kickstarter is cool
17:45:14 <kmc> sadly "take the train instead" is not a reasonable option for most air routes in the USA
17:45:25 <Taneb> FreeFull, there's still a few months of Homestuck left
17:45:31 <FreeFull> Aren't trains in the USA expensive and slow?
17:45:38 <kmc> unless you quite enjoy the experience of sitting on a train for n+1 hours
17:45:45 <kmc> FreeFull: yes
17:46:11 <FreeFull> kmc: Imagine if Japan went over and did your trains for you
17:46:14 <shachaf> I would take a train, except for that.
17:46:25 <kmc> but we can't have that because BUY AMERICAN
17:46:35 <kmc> plus construction costs like 10x as much in america for no clear reason
17:46:38 <kmc> literally 10x in some cases
17:47:44 <kmc> the second avenue subway is going to cost $1,700,000,000 per kilometer
17:48:01 <kmc> which yes is about 10 times what it costs to build a subway in singapore or tokyo
17:48:38 <kmc> i have taken the train+bus between LA and SF a few times and it's... okay
17:48:47 <kmc> one day in the far future there will be proper high speed rail on this route
17:48:50 <Taneb> The kickstarter video for the Homestuck game is probably the best rapid intro to Homestuck out there
17:48:52 <elliott> if I had a nickel for every nickel they're going to spend on the second avenue subway I'd have a lot of nickels
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17:49:16 <elliott> if I had a nickel for every damn dime I'd have half the time
17:49:17 <Taneb> If I had a nickel for every nickel they're going to spend on that I have no idea what a nickel actually is
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17:49:31 <FreeFull> I imagine if the USA had good maglev trains, people would use them rather than go through the trouble of boarding a plane
17:49:48 <kmc> you don't need maglev
17:49:59 <kmc> there is only one passenger maglev in revenue service in the world
17:50:01 <quintopia> if i had a nickle for every nickel, i'd have holes in the floors grimed in a heap of birdshit
17:50:03 <elliott> Taneb: it's a kind of meltametal
17:50:12 <kmc> conventional rail can run plenty fast and has a lot of advantages
17:51:01 <Taneb> elliott, you live within 5 miles of the birthplace of the person to open the first commercial rail line!
17:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> what if he actually lives in a shack a few miles from hexham
17:51:26 <kmc> in fact the record conventional rail speed is only like 6 km/hr less than the record maglev speed
17:51:38 <elliott> kmc: yes but maglev is cooler...
17:51:50 <kmc> well let's build a maglev then
17:51:50 <quintopia> elliott: only if you bother to supercool it
17:52:03 <quintopia> which is not cost-effective really
17:52:13 <Taneb> quintopia, just build it in Alaska
17:52:39 <quintopia> but alaska gets into the 60s in summer. also...who would ride it?
17:52:50 <kmc> FreeFull: it's also possible that if people started to use rail transit in great numbers, the TSA would assert their (legally already existing right) to install airport-style security at train stations
17:52:50 <quintopia> i guess it could carry people over the bridge to nowhere
17:52:57 <Taneb> Russians trying to get to Canada
17:53:22 <kmc> maglev bridge across the bering strait!
17:54:02 <elliott> kmc: do the TSA actually have a reason to do that?
17:54:11 <kmc> self preservation
17:54:37 <kmc> yes salaries for themselves and cash for their contractor buddies
17:54:42 <FreeFull> http://projecteuler.net/problem=81 Help, I'm finding myself writing a whole matrix manipulation library
17:54:48 <elliott> well, people are going to use airports even if trains exist
17:55:02 <FreeFull> Actually, I guess it'll be useful for other matrix problems
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17:57:36 <Taneb> I've taken a plane down to London a couple of times
17:58:52 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered taking a plane to new york
17:58:54 <FireFly> I've taken a plane to London too
17:58:58 <quintopia> just a matter of time before they find it
17:59:02 <Taneb> shachaf, nah, I'd get the train to there
17:59:04 <FireFly> It's a bit too far to swim, I think
17:59:54 <kmc> flying to new york city is a huge pain
18:00:31 <elliott> kmc: because your arms get tired?
18:00:46 <kmc> elliott: yes
18:00:50 <Taneb> I read somewhere that at one point the Empire State Building was going to have a airship port at the top
18:00:57 <kmc> shachaf: because the airports are in the middle of nowhere
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18:01:05 <GreyKnight> I just flew here from a Calabi-Yau manifold, and boy are my arms toroid!
18:01:18 <kmc> LGA isn't really in the middle of nowhere but it has no direct rail connection
18:01:21 <kmc> GreyKnight: hahahaha
18:01:31 <Taneb> Heathrow airport is in the middle of nowhere, but London's big enough that that counts as in London
18:01:40 -!- kmc has set topic: <GreyKnight> I just flew here from a Calabi-Yau manifold, and boy are my arms toroid! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:02:06 <kmc> Taneb: sure, and bumblefuck queens counts as nyc, but it's still an annoying distance from the manhattan central business districts
18:02:27 <Taneb> I've never been to NYC, I wouldn't know
18:02:32 <kmc> heathrow is also kind of a pain but at least there are tube stations under the airport on lines that go directly into the city
18:02:37 <Taneb> I've only used two US airports
18:02:42 <kmc> (ok, one line, but still)
18:02:47 <Taneb> And I was too young to remember either
18:03:02 <FireFly> Eh, I flew to Newark and I didn't mind the distance from the city-center
18:03:05 <Taneb> Denver and one in California
18:03:27 <kmc> the transit situation from newark is a real pain
18:03:39 <Taneb> Even Newcastle Airport is on the metro
18:04:46 <kmc> from newark you have to take the airport train to a New Jersey Transit commuter train station and take that into Manhattan, or take it to Newark Penn Station and get onto the PATH subway into Manhattan
18:05:01 <kmc> of course commuter trains are not as frequent as subway, and more expensive too
18:05:08 <kmc> and there's an extra charge for the airport train
18:05:18 <kmc> or you can take a Newark city bus and try not to get stabbed
18:05:33 <kmc> or you can take a privately run shuttle bus direct to manhattan which is honestly probably the best option
18:05:41 <kmc> if you are not tremendously cheap like myself and my friends
18:05:50 <FireFly> Yeah, that's what we did (take a shuttle bus, I mean)
18:05:50 <Taneb> Annoyingly, the Metro Centre is not the Centre of the Metro
18:06:00 <FireFly> They dropped us off by grand central
18:06:06 <kmc> sounds about right
18:06:10 <Taneb> That's be Monument
18:06:56 <Taneb> The only point on the Metro on three lines
18:07:03 <Taneb> Even though the Metro only has two lines?
18:07:08 <Taneb> It's on one line twice
18:07:50 <kmc> Boston has one of the better airport transit connections in the US
18:08:24 <kmc> there's a bus at the airport which turns into a fake train and takes you downtown, at which point you can transfer to the subway that goes to MIT and Harvard etc
18:08:33 <kmc> and it's all pretty close together and quick
18:09:28 <kmc> also "Calabi-Yau manifold" sounds like something the starship enterprise would get sucked into
18:09:50 <Taneb> Divert all power to rear thrusters!
18:10:04 <Taneb> It's no good, cap'n! We're manifoldin'!
18:11:50 <mroman> If I have some bunch of sets. And I the amount of elements in every set and the amount of elements in all possible intersection. Can I determine the amount of elements in the union of all sets?
18:12:21 <mroman> i.e I know |a|,|b|,|c| and I know |a n b|,|a n c|,|b n c|
18:12:22 <kmc> that's inclusion-exclusion principle
18:12:37 <shachaf> Looks like the Bronx is much more awkward to get to for everyone.
18:12:53 <elliott> isn't it just |a|+|b|+|c|-|a n b|-|a n c|-|b n c|...
18:13:01 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Inclusion-exclusion-3sets.png
18:13:38 <mroman> Given now that I have the corresponding truthtable of a knf boolean formula
18:15:09 <mroman> Like (a v c) ^ (!a v b) ^(b v c) would result in a truthtable with the entries {0x0,10x,x00}
18:15:35 <mroman> and every entry in that truthtable is actually a set of entries
18:15:49 <mroman> 0x0 would expand to 2 elements in that set 010 and 000
18:16:07 <mroman> Essentially I can calculate all the intersections in these sets.
18:16:48 <FreeFull> Now implement this as a data type
18:17:20 <mroman> e.g 0x0 and x00 would have the intersection 000
18:17:56 <mroman> and if everything works out
18:18:13 <mroman> I can calculate the amount of elements in the union of all these sets.
18:23:38 <FreeFull> What is the union of 0x0 and x00?
18:23:54 <mroman> which would predict how many entries in the truth-table can not be solutions
18:26:14 <kmc> so the size of each set is two to the number of x's
18:28:12 <kmc> and you can intersect two patterns... xx=x, x0=0, x1=1, 00=0, 11=1, 01 = 10 = whole set is empty
18:28:29 <kmc> nice trick :)
18:33:15 <mroman> if the distance is zero, then there is no intersection yes.
18:34:18 <mroman> if such a pattern has the distance two to every other pattern
18:34:30 <mroman> then a neighbouring pattern is a trivial solution for that cnf term.
18:37:47 <mroman> 111 has distance d = 2 two every other pattern
18:37:59 <mroman> therefore every pattern with d = 1 to 111 is a solution.
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18:41:11 <mroman> but that's probably never the case :)
18:41:43 <mroman> anyway it should be fairly quick to state if a cnf term has a solution or not
18:42:26 <mroman> however, findig that solution is not.
18:43:20 <mroman> because you can only state how big the set of non-solutions is.
18:43:54 <mroman> and therefore you also know the size of the set of solutions but you have no clue about what that set contains :)
18:46:35 <mroman> at least that's what my brain suggests me.
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18:54:24 <FireFly> Don't eat the intersections!
19:01:27 <Sgeo_> Huh. /r/promos is magic
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20:12:34 <GreyKnight> I just idly checked, and in fact simple-wikipedia *does* have an article on Calabi-Yau manifolds: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabi-Yau_manifold
20:13:08 <Taneb> It links to "small" in the first line
20:13:12 <Taneb> I have a happy too
20:13:26 <Taneb> "But wait. These tiny parts are also interesting. Why?"
20:14:02 <olsner> I have read that article before, it has been there for quite some time
20:14:40 <Lumpio-> >The English used in this article may not be easy for everybody to understand.
20:15:07 <olsner> oh, it was on the simple english wikipedia
20:15:09 <GreyKnight> I think "simplifying" the language used further would only make matters worse
20:16:56 <olsner> it's better with sound
20:17:52 <GreyKnight> oh hey there's a talkpage, this outta be good
20:18:52 <GreyKnight> A metaphor is a lot like a beautiful woman.
20:19:28 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: brb train).
20:19:58 <Taneb> ...that's a simile
20:20:44 <olsner> is simple english required on the talk pages too?
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20:25:55 <GreyKnight> and then you go to the en-wikipedia version and it's a ~whole new world~
20:27:08 <Taneb> http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatium_Calabi-Yau
20:27:37 <Bike> superchordarum
20:27:39 <GreyKnight> FINE a metaphor IS a beautiful woman HAPPY???
20:27:56 <GreyKnight> "Multiplex Calabi-Yau in cultura populare" :-D
20:28:08 <Bike> right, of course the pop culture section is longest.
20:28:11 <Lumpio-> Why does half of the Latin article consist of "in popular culture"
20:28:47 <GreyKnight> Calabi-Yau est nomen navis interstellaris quam Jetfire et grex technobotorum navigant in Transformariorum libello Stormbringer, ab IDW Publishing edito.
20:29:29 <Taneb> Genitive plurul of transformarium?
20:29:40 <Taneb> of the transformations
20:30:01 <GreyKnight> I'm disappointed there's no actual la-wikipedia article for the Transformers
20:30:19 <GreyKnight> Taneb: not "transformations", these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers
20:32:03 <Taneb> Transformaria: roboti incogniti
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20:38:10 <GreyKnight> ais523: I had something I wanted to say to you earlier, but then I forgot it. So this is a pointless comment.
20:38:28 <Sgeo_> elliott, tswett Fiora Phantom_Hoover http://movies.yahoo.com/news/homestuck-movie-comedy-inevitable-unless-not-board-unless-193000232.html
20:39:57 <Sgeo_> I don't mean to be mean to zzo38, but "But it could become a movie. Unless it can't." is a very zzo38 thing to say
20:40:14 <ais523> although zzo38 wouldn't put it quite like that
20:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> he is above and transcendant to us, he cares not for our petty insults
20:41:14 <Taneb> So does insulting him matter, if he cares not about them
20:46:48 -!- c00kiemon5ter has quit (Quit: c00kiemon5ter).
20:46:58 <GreyKnight> > let q = fix (\f x -> [x]:(f x)) in (q 1)
20:47:00 <lambdabot> [[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1],[1...
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20:48:22 <Taneb> > fix ((Control.Applicative.<**>) . seq) (*) 8
20:48:36 <oerjan> 15:48:59: <elliott> does he figure out how hackego's sandboxing works eventually
20:48:41 <oerjan> 15:49:04: <elliott> or is reading this log going to be unending torment and agony
20:48:57 <oerjan> or well, it gets cut short by HackEgo crashing.
20:49:24 <ais523> how was he trying to break out?
20:49:27 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Control.Applicative.<**>',
20:49:27 <lambdabot> imported from `Control.Applicative' at State/L.hs:4:1-26
20:49:44 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----###
20:50:22 <oerjan> i know what it is, i was wondering why the heck you had to add the module
20:51:20 <oerjan> ais523: he was just hallucinating his rm -rf * working.
20:51:46 <ais523> oerjan: what's the point of doing that when it's just trivially undoable?
20:51:56 <ais523> we don't really even need the canary, it's just there for trolling
20:52:18 * oerjan swats ais523 for mentioning the canary
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20:54:32 <olsner> what does the canary do?
20:55:42 <oerjan> oh. well it's hard to hit when you forget the swatter.
20:55:54 <ais523> you'd probably have hit otherwise
20:56:04 <ais523> olsner: basically it's just to stop people doing rm -rf *, and has no other effect
20:56:26 <oerjan> YOU WILL HAVE TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF
20:56:46 <oerjan> hint: you've already had too many hints
20:57:26 * GreyKnight guesses a file with tactical permissions set
20:57:39 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:57:40 <ais523> GreyKnight: even stronger hint: HackEgo has a revert command, and enough intelligence to know when to use it
20:58:08 <GreyKnight> Oh, he auto-reverts if the canary is removed
20:58:24 <oerjan> YOU AND YOUR NUCLEAR HINTS
20:58:30 <elliott> It just doesn't commit, rather.
20:58:32 <Fiora> Sgeo_: that article is so badly written it almost makes me think it's trying to be sbahj-kitschy
20:59:00 <Sgeo_> Oh hey ∃ and ∀ are easy to type in DrRacket. \exists Alt-\ \forall Alt-\
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20:59:43 <GreyKnight> Hm I wonder if there're standard compose sequences for those
21:06:50 <FreeFull> I grepped through compose sequences and didn't find it
21:08:02 <oerjan> how can you grep for it if you cannot compose it? CHECKMATE LINUXISTS
21:08:39 * oerjan sees FreeFull isn't into the spirit of checkmates
21:08:46 <kmc> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rubyonrails-security/61bkgvnSGTQ/discussion code execution exploit for any Rails app
21:09:06 <ais523> kmc: not /any/ Rails app? or is this a new one?
21:09:19 <FreeFull> I can also do ctrl+shift+u 2203 space
21:09:28 <FreeFull> But that's difficult to remember
21:09:29 <ais523> I thought the old one required you to modify a cookie to replace a representation of a string literal with a representation of a Ruby dictionary
21:09:32 <kmc> apparently a new one
21:09:40 <ais523> and that only worked if it happened to be stored in a cookie at the time
21:09:42 <kmc> haven't absorbed all the details
21:12:18 <oerjan> ...how can there not be a haskell function by that name
21:12:28 <elliott> hoogle doesn't search that much
21:12:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Absorbaloff'
21:13:32 <oerjan> ah, hayoo shows Data.Semiring has one
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21:32:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> I guess oerjan (helloerjan!) will logread this later and add quotes? <-- TOO LATE I'M PAST IT NOW AND HACKEGO'S STILL NOT HERE
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21:33:32 <olsner> still no hackego? this is horrible
21:33:35 <shachaf> oerjan: You could @remember it.
21:33:39 <lambdabot> elven says: foldr sounds like a web-2.0 service
21:33:44 <lambdabot> NealStephenson says: Long names get worn down to three-letter nubbins like stones smoothed by a river.
21:33:54 <lambdabot> JoeMarshall says: I recall that Mike Blair once got the meta-circular evaluator to run itself. It took about forty minutes to get to the prompt.
21:34:07 <lambdabot> Veinor says: SMT? shin megami tensei! the goal is to figure out how to max your s-links in persona 4 on the first run ... which is reducible to SAT, now that I think about it
21:34:16 <lambdabot> EvanR says: oop is never about what people say its about
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21:36:21 <lambdabot> 0. SamB: A way to get multiple results from a google search
21:36:21 <lambdabot> 1. dons: improve formatting of @dict
21:36:21 <lambdabot> 3. lispy: don't let lambdabot's prettyprinter split the sequence @foo across lines
21:36:21 <lambdabot> 4. TheHunter: priviledged users should get priviledged listcommands.
21:36:49 <hagb4rd> what's up with gregor? doesn't he care anymore?
21:37:13 <GreyKnight> dammit a newbie and we don't have the bot to `welcome him!
21:37:15 <oerjan> IT'S LIKE HE'S NOT EVEN HERE
21:37:52 <lambdabot> 6. lispy: haddock gives a link from a type signature to the types. It would be nice if it also let you find functions in the given module that use a type.
21:37:52 <lambdabot> 8. dcoutts: implement @cool list, as a clone of the @todo(-add) commands
21:37:52 <lambdabot> 9. dons: there's some bug in the 'when i left' code of @seen
21:37:58 <fizzie> ^welcome canaima172429
21:38:01 <lambdabot> 11. beelsebob_: @tell command - relays a message to someone when they next speak
21:38:01 <lambdabot> 12. dons: @seen on lambdabot should report lambdabot's channels too
21:38:02 <lambdabot> 13. ski: when printing first lines of infinite things (or all cases with nonexact), should say 'at least'
21:38:04 <lambdabot> 14. ski: provide '@more <number>', at least for privmsg
21:38:10 <fizzie> fungot: You *had* a ^welcome there.
21:38:13 <lambdabot> 15. ski: '@todo-remove <number>' for priviledged users, and possibly the user who added the todo note (is @todo-replace worth it ?)
21:38:13 <lambdabot> 16. dons: BUG: @pl (\_ -> return ()) --> const return
21:38:13 <lambdabot> 17. beelsebob_: "@remind command formatted as '@remind <person> {at <time> | in <time interval>} {to | about} <reminder message>' to get lambdabot to remind someone to do something"
21:38:14 <lambdabot> 18. beelsebob_: "@pester command to make lambdabot pester you in PM to do something"
21:38:16 <fizzie> Maybe I forgot to save. :/
21:38:16 <lambdabot> 19. Lemmih: Bug jethr0_ about GHC hacking.
21:38:23 <lambdabot> I won't; I want to go get some cookies instead.
21:38:36 <elliott> these todos are a bit boring imo
21:38:38 <fungot> canaima172429: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of e ...
21:38:45 <fungot> fizzie: still an fnord ear he lent but could not fnord what she meant: she was thinking of nothing but " snark" and the poor little thing coughed violently for some time.
21:39:05 <fizzie> fungot: So you're just slow, then.
21:39:07 <fungot> fizzie: " shall i help you off with your ' another time'!"
21:39:24 <oerjan> fizzie: it's probably a rather long bf program?
21:39:24 <GreyKnight> did fungot just try to proposition fizzie
21:39:26 <fungot> GreyKnight: " sylvie dear, do help to settle it! i'm sure a day in the country would do him good. i'm afraid i don't quite understand,' said the gnat.
21:39:29 <fungot> ,[.,]+14[>+8>+4>+7>+6<4-]>2+2.-26.>2+3.+14.+7.<+.>+3.-2.<+2.<.<+4.>3+2.<2.>2+5.<+3.-3.<.+73.+5.>2.<.>-2.-4.<-4.<2.>-5.>2+.-.<.>-2.<-65.<-.+13.>2-10.<.>+4.<2-6.<-2.>2.+69.<2+.>.+5.>.<-2.>+4.>-3.-67.<2-2.<-.-3.-8.>+2.<-6.>-5..>.<+.<+6.>3.<2-2.>-8.<+2.<.>+7.>.<2.-2.>3.<3-.>2+4.<-2.>+4.-2.<-5.>2.<-6.<.>+3.>.<3.+.>+2.<+7.>-.+10.<+.>2+.<2+.>-5.>2+.-.<-31.<2+.>-2.>2.<2-5.+2.+3.>+31.>.<+4.<-4.-8.>+6.+3.<2-2.>-5.>+2.<2-4.+6.-.>3+12.-12.
21:40:09 <ais523> it's BF because it takes an argument?
21:40:34 <GreyKnight> canaima172429: Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño esotérico lenguaje de programación y despliegue! Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, ir a algún otro canal que no puedo recordar el nombre)
21:41:24 <Bike> is that real or machine translated
21:41:27 <hagb4rd> oerjan: do we have the source of hackego?
21:41:47 <GreyKnight> I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count :-3
21:42:39 <Bike> it's just that i'm wondering if i remember enough spanish to say it should be "el diseño y despliegue de esotérico lenguaje de promación" instead
21:43:35 <GreyKnight> I learnt one year of Spanish back in school many many years ago
21:43:39 <kmc> http://vladz.devzero.fr/013_ptmx-timing.php "Use /dev/ptmx to measure inter-keystroke timing"
21:43:55 <Bike> most important word to learn in any language, eh?
21:44:05 <oerjan> hagb4rd: on gregor's github iirc
21:44:09 <kmc> my fiesta name is pendejo
21:44:51 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:44:56 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
21:44:57 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:44:59 <GreyKnight> kmc: PS I mapped Compose-@-@ to be ꙮ hth
21:46:15 <GreyKnight> "Several articles ([1] for instance), demonstrate that inter-keystroke timing (also called latency), is considered sufficient to determine what information is being typed on a keyboard." <-- oooh nice
21:46:45 <kmc> get your enemy's password by pointing a laser microphone at their window
21:46:56 <shachaf> In Hebrew @ is called a strudel.
21:47:00 <GreyKnight> what is a PoC here? It reads like "Piece of Code" but blegh
21:47:04 <kmc> in many languages it's a snail
21:47:05 <oerjan> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot
21:47:07 <kmc> proof of concept
21:47:12 <shachaf> kmc: I wanted to see if you could make a Flash game that listened to your keystrokes and got some information from them.
21:47:19 <kmc> HTML5 microphone API!
21:47:23 <kmc> shachaf: that is a good idea
21:47:30 <shachaf> I wonder how much you can get.
21:47:32 <Bike> get your enemy's password by pointing a laser microphone at their window <-- that game was surprisingly fun
21:47:35 <shachaf> Probably different keys sound pretty different.
21:47:48 <fizzie> There are papers on keyboard sounds.
21:47:55 <kmc> i also saw an attack where you could reconstruct the image on a CRT monitor by photographing the diffuse light on the opposite wall with a high-speed camera
21:47:59 <fizzie> (From the point of view of the person being listened to.)
21:47:59 <kmc> e.g. from across the street
21:48:11 <kmc> laptops should conduct key sound to the microphone very well
21:48:12 <fizzie> kmc: Sadly, there are no CRT monitors any more.
21:48:13 <hagb4rd> greyknight: this might it: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-request/2/transactional-hackego/diff
21:48:21 <Bike> GreyKnight: splinter cell. at one point you listen in on some people by pointing a laser microphone at their conveniently glass-windowed elevator.
21:48:23 <kmc> sadly, not true
21:48:23 <fizzie> (I saw that thing too.)
21:48:35 <kmc> but yes, they are rare
21:48:40 <fizzie> It was also made with not terribly fancy hardware.
21:48:45 <GreyKnight> kmc: I think you can read a CRT even from outside an enclosed room if you can pick up the Van Eck radiation, actually
21:48:46 <kmc> i assume it doesn't work with LCDs
21:48:48 <Sgeo_> Yes, there are idiots who program in Racket.
21:48:54 <kmc> GreyKnight: yes
21:48:57 <Bike> these things always make me wonder how practical they are, though
21:48:58 <Sgeo_> http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~s76singh/how-to-compile-your-drracket-code/
21:49:03 <elliott> you know those laser keyboards
21:49:07 <Sgeo_> "Solution : Compile the racket code to c code using Chicken Scheme."
21:49:11 <GreyKnight> Sgeo_: there are idiots in every language :-3
21:49:20 <fizzie> Optical Time-Domain Eavesdropping Risks of CRT Displays.
21:49:23 <elliott> do those provide "sound protection"
21:49:26 <elliott> because you are just tapping a table
21:49:28 <Bike> like if you're going to set up a TEMPEST thing to watch someone's screen, wouldn't it be easier to just bribe their waiter or some shit
21:49:33 <fizzie> It includes the bit about using a telescope.
21:49:45 <Jafet> elliott: you're tapping DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE TABLE
21:49:46 <GreyKnight> "there are no CRT monitors any more" <-- I have one right here in my living room!
21:50:09 <Jafet> There should be a tax on people like GreyKnight
21:50:11 <fizzie> http://www.rootsecure.net/content/downloads/pdf/optical_tempest_crt.pdf it's a nice.
21:51:10 <Jafet> What kind of force is this
21:51:15 <Lumpio-> Do they still use CRTs for somethings these days?
21:51:58 <GreyKnight> Lumpio-: well I have one on my computer here
21:52:18 <fizzie> There are leftover monitors, but I wonder how many are still being manufactured.
21:52:22 <Lumpio-> GreyKnight: I was more like looking for applications where flat screens *can't* replace them
21:52:22 <fizzie> Probably not a whole lot.
21:52:40 <Lumpio-> Not just people who didn't bother/want to replace their CRT
21:52:54 <GreyKnight> oh hey I do have hg on this machine \o/
21:53:32 <Taneb> STOP ON YOUR ETERNAL QUEST TO PREVENT ME FROM POSTING ABOUT HOMESTUCK IN PROGRAMMING CHANNELS
21:53:44 <Taneb> THAT WORKED PERFECTLY WELL IN CONTEXT
21:54:01 <fizzie> "CRT monitors are still widely used in the study of the brain's visual processing (e.g. in psychophysics). The speed and fidelity of their response, combined with the simplicity of their design, makes them well-suited for experiments where scientists need to have very fine control over stimuli which are presented to an observer."
21:54:09 <fizzie> (Also gamers, of course. Lag, you know.)
21:54:20 <Taneb> AND I'VE JUST SENT 12 TO SOMEONE I'VE NEVER MET SO HE CAN BY A RASPBERRY PI COMPUTER
21:54:21 * GreyKnight traps Taneb in a sound-muffling forcefield ⌇⌇'o'⌇⌇
21:54:24 <Bike> Really? I thought you needed specialized equipment to present images to bugs anyway.
21:54:26 <Fiora> :33 < taneb you sound supurr upset to me, is someowthing upsetting you?
21:54:40 <Bike> Like a vanilla CRT's max refresh rate isn't good enough for them.
21:55:16 <Taneb> I'm gonna get something to eat
21:55:35 * GreyKnight doesn't know where insects entered the conversation
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21:56:04 <elliott> Bike: Are you sure bugs aren't just stupid?
21:56:05 * GreyKnight puts a cork in Taneb's gob while he breathes
21:56:16 <Bike> GreyKnight: fizzie's quote about psychophysics.
21:56:16 <Bike> GreyKnight: "observers" often constitute more than just humans.
21:56:40 <Bike> elliott: This is science. We need to know precisely how stupid they are.
21:56:51 <GreyKnight> right but... you sounded as if you were responding to a comment about insects
21:56:59 <hagb4rd> well think of cicadas.. they finally found out a good algo for primals
21:57:05 <Jafet> If bugs are stupid, why do people program computers like them?
21:57:23 <Bike> GreyKnight: Fizzie's comment reminded me of psychophysics experiments I've heard of, that involved bugs. Simple.
21:57:38 <Bike> elliott: but there are so many reals! we need bounds
21:57:55 <GreyKnight> Bike: I am just saying some context would have helped!
21:59:13 <Bike> GreyKnight: do we need to do psychophysics on you too, bub?
21:59:37 <kmc> wow *two* 787 malfunctions on the ground at BOS in two days
21:59:44 <kmc> a battery fire and then a fuel leak
21:59:55 * GreyKnight puts Bike in the forcefield with the others ⌇⌇ o_o 'o' o_o ⌇⌇
22:05:17 <hagb4rd> beware of my heart shaped cats legion
22:05:21 <oerjan> i keep thinking that unicode snowman looks more like a cartoon cat head
22:06:04 <oerjan> which i guess is good since i don't have fonts for any of the actual cats
22:07:30 <GreyKnight> oerjan: *GASP* How can you live like that?!
22:08:16 <oerjan> it's ok i've always been more of a dog person
22:09:06 <GreyKnight> THEN HAVE I GOT A CODEPOINT FOR YOU 🐶 🐶 🐶 🐶
22:09:59 <oerjan> also putty shows a lot less than my browser, i have to look at the logs even for the snowman
22:10:36 <oerjan> (putty is incapable of using more than one font simultaneously)
22:11:07 <oerjan> GreyKnight: my what nice square boxes!
22:11:09 <Fiora> heart shaped cats legion?
22:11:31 <oerjan> since when is Fiora swedish
22:11:52 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdanwyAOdu1r3ez80o1_r1_500.gif
22:12:08 <Fiora> sorry. homestucking
22:12:28 <GreyKnight> objection none of their eyes are heart-shaped
22:12:48 <olsner> oerjan: probably Fiora is not swedish at all
22:12:50 <oerjan> (lejon is swedish for lion)
22:12:58 <Fiora> I am very not swedish XD
22:12:59 <oerjan> olsner: well it _was_ slightly misspelled
22:14:02 <oerjan> i guess leijon is what legion would be spelled like in some hypothetical reform
22:15:06 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Have you got a bridge-shaped codepoint to sell us if we believe any of that?
22:15:23 <olsner> I think the spelling leijon exists as a surname though
22:15:55 <fizzie> (fi:leijona == en:lion.)
22:16:30 <hagb4rd> surprise.. it even makes sense
22:16:53 <fizzie> (fi:leijoina == en:"as kites", approximately.)
22:17:28 <oerjan> olsner: yes google showed some people
22:17:33 <fizzie> (The plural essive noun case of leija 'a kite'.)
22:18:11 <olsner> hmm, as kites => asive case?
22:18:36 <fizzie> "The essive or similaris case (abbreviated ess) carries the meaning of a temporary location or state of being, often equivalent to the English 'as a (child)'."
22:18:47 <fizzie> Wikipedia only has examples in Finnish and Estonian.
22:18:53 <fizzie> Perhaps it's not such a popular noun case.
22:18:59 <Bike> fucking hipster ugric languages
22:19:24 <oerjan> en:lion = no:løve, to demonstrate how gentle creatures they are
22:19:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Is en:liøn also no:love?
22:20:00 <oerjan> cån't yøu feel the løve tønight
22:20:07 <fizzie> Come to Kenyä, we've got liøns.
22:20:37 <fizzie> GreyKnight: More like Snoreway.
22:21:33 <GreyKnight> If Kenya were to physically urinate all over Norway, this trajectory would give optimum coverage.
22:21:47 <oerjan> finnish lions are of course retarded http://satwcomic.com/coat-of-arms
22:21:58 <hagb4rd> fizzie: can you link me to a good (free) en-fi dictionary?
22:23:01 <GreyKnight> oerjan: wow Scandinavia sure does love lions
22:23:04 <oerjan> also http://lolpics.se/5232-retarded-lion
22:23:39 -!- elliott has left.
22:23:53 <GreyKnight> oerjan: that makes the whole "do or die" thing a lot simpler
22:25:11 <oerjan> <Bike> fucking hipster ugric languages <-- finnish is not ugric, hungarian is ugric
22:27:22 <oerjan> GreyKnight: except en:do = no:gjøre
22:29:48 <fizzie> hagb4rd: I use our site license of a commercial one. For random lookups, though, Wiktionary is probably just fine.
22:31:25 <fizzie> There's some (pretty lame) conspiracy theories about the nine roses in the Finnish one.
22:31:46 <fizzie> ("The purpose of the nine roses remains unknown, but are now mostly considered to be decorative only. They have sometimes been claimed to represent the nine historical provinces of Finland, but this hypothesis has not found support among prominent scholars.[1] The number of towns in the nominal "Grand Duchy of Finland and Karelia" in 1580 were also nine,[2] but no known historical research ...
22:31:52 <fizzie> ... provides support for a link between the number of roses and the number of towns in Finland in 1580.")
22:32:12 <fizzie> They're quite of randomly-haphazardly put in there.
22:33:36 <Fiora> but like. criterion for what?
22:34:05 <kmc> as in "high as kites"?
22:34:37 <fungot> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica ...
22:34:52 <fizzie> "For the other kind of esoterica ...actually, forget it."
22:35:00 <fizzie> fungot: Put some effort into that, would you.
22:35:01 <fungot> fizzie: ' you should have meant! what do you call it a ' defective conclusion'. all m are x; &there4 all y are x, and no y' exist. i.e. all nice are not-new. 0 1 all y are x", that is,
22:35:32 <fizzie> Is it just me, or is fungot somehow more random than usual?
22:35:32 <fungot> fizzie: size and tears he sorted out those of the largest size. holding his pocket handkerchief before his streaming eyes. " isn't he wise?"
22:35:37 <oerjan> btw the theory is that the finnish and hungarian branches developed their plethoras of cases _separately_ and the ancestral language had only six or so
22:36:10 <fizzie> oerjan: We only have 15 or so now.
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22:38:38 <GreyKnight> I guess canaimawhatsis got tired of us ._.
22:39:28 <fizzie> Inessive, elative, illative; adessive, ablative, allative. That's the standard litany of the locative case names they teach(ed, anyway) in primary school.
22:40:02 <GreyKnight> unrelated: I like how the standard Linux Compose file for en_US.UTF-8 includes codes *typed with* <Cyrillic_pe>, <Cyrillic_a>, etc
22:40:24 <GreyKnight> elative/illative/allative sound totally non-confusable
22:41:09 <oerjan> GreyKnight: if you know how latin prepositional prefixes work, they are...
22:41:32 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: Compose cccp? How would you do that? It only accepts two keys for me
22:41:39 <oerjan> e- i(duplication)- and a(duplication)- from ex, in and ad respectively
22:41:45 <GreyKnight> oerjan: I mean they sound alike when spoken aloud
22:42:18 <oerjan> THAT'S YOU ENGLISHES' PROBLEM
22:42:22 <olsner> GreyKnight: maybe you're not enunciating them properly
22:42:42 <fizzie> GreyKnight: They're typically taught along with a single word in each of those cases, in the same order. Like "koirassa, koirasta, koiraan; koiralla, koiralta, koiralle". (In a dog, from (inside of) a dog, into a dog; on/at a dog, from a dog, to a dog.)
22:42:50 <fizzie> (Probably they're not using the word "dog" there.)
22:42:51 <GreyKnight> I need to turf somebody out of the forcefield so I can put olsner in
22:43:32 <GreyKnight> fizzie: Reminds me of the old saying. Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
22:44:05 <GreyKnight> ("Outside of _" is an idiom for "Except for _")
22:44:12 <hagb4rd> fizzie: does the dog/the noun remain unchained in all that prepositions?
22:44:20 <fizzie> GreyKnight: That's a good example of a thing that wouldn't really translate.
22:44:48 <fizzie> hagb4rd: None of them are prepositions in Finland, so I'm not sure what the question means.
22:45:12 <fizzie> I even had "Finnish" there.
22:45:13 <oerjan> i _think_ it would work in norwegian
22:45:38 <olsner> it almost works in swedish
22:45:45 <fizzie> We don't really have the equivalent outside-of idiom.
22:46:02 <fizzie> If you translate "outside of a dog" directly, it just means the outside of a dog.
22:46:37 <GreyKnight> "What why are they talking about dog leather"
22:46:59 <fizzie> I suppose you could do something slightly far-fetched but similar by starting from the translated "except for a dog", and then inventing an alternative way to interpret it.
22:47:33 <oerjan> http://home.no/toppned/side2.html is the only hit i found, at the bottom
22:47:39 <fizzie> But it wouldn't be the inside-it's-too-dark joke then.
22:48:39 <olsner> the swedish for "except for" conveniently also means outside of, replacing out with in in that word gives you a word that technically also means inside of but isn't really used that way
22:49:19 <oerjan> well yes it doesn't work to replace utenom with innenom
22:49:19 <fizzie> I tried to google for "koiran ulkopuolella" (outside of a dog), but it's all about how long different pet parasites/disease-vectors survive outside of a dog.
22:49:58 <fizzie> Uh, except for a machine-translated bit.
22:50:22 <olsner> outside of a dog, worms don't survive for long. inside of a dog they can't read.
22:50:29 <GreyKnight> Try to make joke > Get stuff about dog worms
22:50:50 <fizzie> "Oletko sairaita peräkorokekansi nukka koti tulee tai etsiminen märkä paikan päällä rakkaiden matto tai matto? No minulla on ratkaisu. -- Kun yrität junan mitään, erityisesti koira, voi usein olla vaikeaa ja huolellinen, mutta nämä helpot toimet on avuksi onnistuneesti yöastia, Potta koulutuksen oman koira. -- Vaihe 3: Muista ottaa yhteyttä koiran ulkopuolella usein, erityisesti ...
22:50:57 <fizzie> ... silloin, kun olet ensin wake up aamulla, ennen kuin voit siirtyä lepotilaan yöllä ja kunkin aterian jälkeen." (For the Finns.)
22:51:33 <fizzie> I like the "Kun yrität junan mitään." That's approximately "when you're trying to train something", except it's train as in the vehicle.
22:51:53 * hagb4rd wonders how "on" "at" "in" "into" and so on can not be prepositions
22:51:54 <fizzie> So it's "When you're trying a train's anything."
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22:52:32 <fizzie> hagb4rd: By being inflected endings. "In a dog" = "koirassa", "into a dog" = "koiraan".
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22:53:41 <fizzie> (The base noun in the nominative case is "koira". And it's of course not always a simple suffix, there's all kinds of fuzzy vague rules how the stem gets changed.)
22:54:37 <fizzie> kite (singular), kite's (possessive), kites (plural), kites' (possessive plural): leija, leijan, leijat, leijojen.
22:54:42 <GreyKnight> First rule of language: It's NEVER just a simple suffix.
22:58:51 <GreyKnight> "high as a kit": leicqcdmcqwlookatmyhands
22:59:19 <fizzie> Though I suppose the "plural" is kind of arguable, it's not like we only have a single plural. ("Two kites" would be "kaksi leijaa", and "(some) kites" would be "(joitakin) leijoja". But "(these) kites" is "nämä leijat".)
22:59:57 <fizzie> I forgot to put parenthesis markers to all the "context" words there.
23:00:21 <FreeFull> Kite as in the thing you fly or the bird?
23:01:29 <olsner> is that depending on whether the number of kites is known or unknown or something?
23:01:51 <nooodl> dual forms are a thing in a lot of languages
23:01:56 <nooodl> i bet "two kites" is just a special case
23:02:04 <hagb4rd> it the depends on whether number of kites is infinite :p
23:02:14 <fizzie> No, it's not; it'd be the same after any number.
23:02:41 <fizzie> But I suppose it needs to be a particular number.
23:02:53 <nooodl> does just "leijaa" mean anything?
23:03:16 <fizzie> Well, no, one way of saying "many" would also gt that form. ("monta leijaa")
23:03:34 <fizzie> But another way of saying it ("paljon leijoja") would not.
23:03:38 <olsner> how about a few kites?
23:03:57 <GreyKnight> fizzie: in that case you should parenthesise (two) :-)
23:04:11 <fizzie> olsner: Muutama leija, vähän leijoja. (Okay, the last is "few kites", not "a few".)
23:05:10 <olsner> few (not many) and "a few" (at least a few) is sort of different though
23:05:30 <fizzie> ("A couple of kites" = "pari leijaa".)
23:05:31 <olsner> but maybe not different enough to have cases of their own
23:05:54 <fizzie> Hey, look, "muutama leija" doesn't have a plural at all.
23:06:18 <fizzie> (It's still "at least a few kites".)
23:06:30 <fizzie> (There are definitely more than one.)
23:06:50 <olsner> (But despite that not plural?)
23:07:12 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the noun is in the usual nominative case, without a plural form.
23:07:49 <fizzie> ("leija" as opposed to "leijat", "leijoja" or "leijaa", the latter of which is I think actually the partitive case or something.)
23:08:52 <fizzie> I suppose it's kind of arbitrary, but it's definitely determined by the part indicating the amount.
23:09:48 <fizzie> Hey, isn't it the official language of the channel.
23:10:00 <fizzie> At least according to a few long-lived topics.
23:10:11 <olsner> a while there I thought wikipedia said "The partitive case [denotes] partitiveness"
23:10:22 <fizzie> There's #esoteric-en for you other guys.
23:10:27 <olsner> (it actually said partialness)
23:12:37 <olsner> meh, grammar is hard and I am slep
23:15:25 <fizzie> Hird of Unix-Replacing Daemons; Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth.
23:16:42 <hagb4rd> that's greyt.. can i quote this greyknight?
23:18:57 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Do you generally fall asleep when sheep wraps over? (Or the other way around?)
23:19:50 <fizzie> while (sheep + 1 > sheep) sheep++; sleep();
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23:21:13 <fizzie> Advanced sleepers may try to parallelize that with lucid-dream sheep-counting.
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23:30:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gGDZ that's a new message for me.
23:31:13 <fizzie> (Only happens for -S, not e.g. for -c.)
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23:56:37 <GreyKnight> I spent a while trying to figure out why my bibold characters weren't working. Then I realised I hadn't actually included that part in my .XCompose >_>