00:00:21 <Sgeo_> I love the overuse of the love meme
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00:03:41 <monqy> sgeo......no........
00:14:14 <shachaf> would you smoke around someone who's trying to quit smoking?
00:14:24 <shachaf> would you say hi to monqy?
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00:15:31 <shachaf> Fiora: Are you studying to be a language lawyer?
00:15:39 <Fiora> ummmm I'm just curious really!
00:15:45 <Fiora> there's so much I don't know about C
00:16:21 <shachaf> Did you know: The standard allows argc==0, *argv==NULL?
00:16:40 <Jafet> You must be reading the wrong standard then, shachaf.
00:16:51 <shachaf> Jafet: I was reading C89 and C99.
00:16:59 <shachaf> Which one should I be reading?
00:17:09 <Bike> c99 is so last millenium
00:17:18 <Jafet> The one that makes your program work.
00:17:19 <shachaf> But who pays attention to K&R?
00:17:46 <Fiora> is argv[0] equal to program name a system convention, or C convention?
00:17:58 <Bike> i would guess posix, that seems like it'd be out of scope of C
00:18:38 <shachaf> You can segfault quite a lot of programs in /usr/bin/ with it.
00:19:08 <Jafet> I wonder if you can pass envp = 0.
00:20:06 <shachaf> I think the best you can do is *envp = 0
00:21:05 <shachaf> Lots of programs will just use envp[0] as argv[0] on Linux.
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00:28:01 <shachaf> Fiora: Exercise: Make up a case where a program not checking for argc==0 can lead to a security vulnerability.
00:28:16 <Fiora> does execve on real systems allow argc=0?
00:28:17 <shachaf> (I couldn't come up with a realistic one. Segfaults are easy but not useful.)
00:28:34 <shachaf> Hence the segfaults I mentioned earlier.
00:29:10 <shachaf> Even on some suid binaries.
00:29:51 <Fiora> if you set up a signal handler, does it get overwritten when you execve?
00:30:07 <shachaf> I would generally hope so.
00:30:23 <Fiora> Yeah, it would be a little insane if it didn't
00:32:18 <Bike> man execve mentions signal handlers (or rather "dispositions", I haven't really used signals) are reset. doesn't mention posixness or nuthin
00:57:49 <zzo38> Macro parameters cannot have line numbers in GNU C so I instead used various things to make it work; this involves redefining macros that are already defined and using mismatched parentheses. (This is for a puzzle game called "Brains&Flags")
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01:04:49 <zzo38> Is isn't written enough yet that you can look at it!
01:05:28 <zzo38> But it sort of resembles a cross between Hero Hearts and Magic: the Gathering, although there are also some things like chess and so on.
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03:00:05 <Sgeo_> There is a piece of code in Pharo that starts
03:01:11 <Sgeo_> false ifTrue: [self flag: #nominallyUnsent:] "So that this method itself will appear to be sent"
03:04:58 <Sgeo_> Have an actual reason to do (if false ...)?
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03:05:14 <Bike> I don't really understand the reason.
03:06:03 <Sgeo_> I think it's so that the IDE thinks that there exists a piece of code that sends nominallyUnsent:
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03:29:27 * Sgeo wonders if Squeak looks any less horrible these days
03:30:13 <Sgeo> ih. Theme still sucks but it's less... horrible, I guess? http://static.squeak.org/screenshots/world_color.png
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03:39:55 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Haskell doesn't seem to have a power function that takes a ratio as the index
03:40:16 <oerjan> > 2 ** (1/3) -- what's wrong with this?
03:41:41 <kmc> shachaf: if a program does something like while (--argc) { ... }
03:41:49 <kmc> then for argc == 0, the loop will execute many times
03:41:51 <oerjan> what's wrong is FreeFull isn't actually here
03:42:12 <kmc> also it will eventually signed-integer-underflow which is UB
03:43:56 <Bike> least you can mostly fix it by moving two characters.
03:44:38 <shachaf> UB is sufficient to be bad but not sufficient to be exploitable.
03:45:21 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti alot
03:45:44 <kmc> char *buf[256]; int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { if (argc > 256) abort(); while (--argc) buf[argc] = *(argv++); }
03:46:25 <shachaf> That's a bit too convoluted for my taste.
03:47:02 <kmc> it doesn't seem that convoluted and could probably be made less convoluted and longer
03:47:27 <kmc> what do you usually get on x86 GNU/Linux when you read past the end of argv?
03:47:34 <kmc> you get a NULL pointer and then envp entries, yeah?
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03:49:33 <oerjan> > minBound `div` (-1) :: Int
03:50:53 <oerjan> > minBound `div` 0 :: Int
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03:51:20 <Bike> FreeFull! You have four seconds to explain what the "index" of an exponentiation is!
03:52:46 <oerjan> i expect it means the exponent, since that is the one where you cannot use a ratio with all the haskell operators
03:52:46 <kmc> and there are plenty of cases where an attacker partially controls the environment of a setuid binary, aren't there
03:59:08 <kmc> also the long loop itself could be a security vulnerability, a DoS
03:59:21 <kmc> if a setuid program has higher rlimits than you do, or acquires a privileged lock or something
03:59:55 <kmc> ooc, what do you find convoluted about my example?
04:01:34 <shachaf> Mostly that I looked at the argument parsing of a bunch of programs and didn't see anything that looked much like that.
04:01:49 <shachaf> But it's probably less convoluted than I thought.
04:02:00 <shachaf> Oh, there are some programs that do malloc() based on argc.
04:02:19 <shachaf> That could be promising, if they then try to copy into a buffer.
04:03:37 <shachaf> For example Dalvik does this.
04:04:05 <shachaf> https://github.com/android/platform_dalvik/blob/master/dalvikvm/Main.cpp#L154
04:07:17 <shachaf> In this case it's probably also not exploitable.
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04:11:34 <Sgeo> "Java stopped working with 32-bit browsers, and Chrome never became 64-bit. Which is kind of terrible in itself."
04:11:37 <Sgeo> What's this about?
04:12:27 <shachaf> How should I know? You pasted it.
04:12:45 <Sgeo> Is that person actually being accurate, or delusional?
04:12:55 <Sgeo> (About no more Java for 32-bit browsers)
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04:28:31 <kmc> ah yeah, they do essentially malloc(sizeof(foo) * (argc-1))
04:28:45 <kmc> which will be a classic malloc size overflow if argc==0
04:28:54 <kmc> shachaf: you should write a level based on argc==0 and submit it to IO!
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04:30:16 <shachaf> kmc: I'd submit one to your CTF!
04:30:27 <shachaf> Weren't you going to make one?
04:30:55 <kmc> i was going to do a different thing
04:31:03 <shachaf> Oh, the cryptography thing?
04:32:39 <kmc> the devious code contest
04:33:11 <shachaf> Hmm, there's actually a lot of overlap between CTF levels and underhanded code contest submissions.
04:33:51 <kmc> i was never planning to run a CTF by meself
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05:08:58 <kmc> 200 000 000 × 0.01% = goatse
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06:49:17 <Deewiant> http://andrew-hoyer.com/experiments/entropy/
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07:04:28 <oerjan> that site has so high entropy it doesn't load
07:04:44 <Bike> it's pretty, in a web 3.0 way, which is more than most esolangs get
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07:25:52 <oklopol> seems you could easily keep bits using Techniques.
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07:34:43 <fizzie> There was a TV program about "glitch art" I happened to glance at a while ago.
07:34:55 <fizzie> It registered quite high on the old pretentiometer.
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08:50:41 <shachaf> 1F46B MAN AND WOMAN HOLDING HANDS
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11:13:41 <myndzi> lol. i saw this spacechem solution for an easy level that took like 100k cycles
11:13:56 <myndzi> and i thought of a better way to do it, plus found a level i could implement it on
11:14:11 <myndzi> the cycle counter changed to say +INF before the first molecule was 1/3 of the way to the output
11:14:28 <myndzi> i'm gonna let it run overnight and see if it keeps an actual count
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11:43:22 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti alot
11:43:40 <Sgeo> (from a few hours ago)
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12:13:20 <Sgeo> I should really go back to sleep
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13:34:09 <Sgeo> I wish Smalltalk was more like Snit
14:35:07 <quintopia> i wish my stomach was more like full
14:52:02 <Sgeo> <gokr> So Maru is the minimal parts that you need in order to "bootstrap" a VM for a language (what you like) at runtime.
14:52:02 <Sgeo> <gokr> So if you read his "js implementation" it starts by defining some low level semantics (at runtime) - then add a bit on those - then suddenly it starts running "js" so to speak.
14:52:02 <Sgeo> <gokr> So Maru defines the js runtime dynamically when it starts.
14:52:02 <Sgeo> <gokr> This means that the "VM" is purely dynamic and can reconfigure itself during runtime for different languages.
14:58:35 * Sgeo goes to read http://www.dynamic-languages-symposium.org/dls-06/program/media/IanPiumarta_2006_OpenExtensibleDynamicProgrammingSystems_Dls.pdf
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15:06:12 <Sgeo> I have no idea what's going on
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15:27:48 <ion> http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_silence_can_be_golden_says_american_expert/6454371
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16:01:03 <fizzie> Do not eat the yellow snow.
16:03:44 <fizzie> "The sauna is also a place where Finns do not normally engage in a lot of conversation --" I don't really know if that has been my experience. Though it does say "normally".
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16:14:37 <Taneb> Sgeo: my situation got worse
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16:34:34 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: help
16:34:50 <Taneb> Rescue my computer
16:34:57 <Taneb> From the clutches of something
16:34:57 <Phantom_Hoover> what is the matter upon for guidance for which to me you turn
16:35:18 <Taneb> After last night's graphics card kerfuffle, I now cannot seem to launch a GUI
16:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> he is after all closer and can free it with less commuting
16:38:04 <Taneb> Some form of nVidia, turns out not what I thought
16:40:37 <Taneb> Ubuntu 12.04, 304 experimental drivers
16:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i should point out right now that i know nothing about this
16:43:22 <Taneb> Hence why I've also asked in #nvidia
16:46:26 <Taneb> ...and recieved no response so far
16:48:33 <boily> Taneb: I've had multiple problems with various bêta nVidia drivers in the past. I don't know how easy it is to downgrade them on ubuntu, but that usually did the trick on my old machine.
16:48:56 <Taneb> boily: the problem is ridiculous already
16:49:03 <Taneb> Basically, I had a bootleg graphics card
16:49:06 <boily> elliott: my French's slipping again :p
16:49:07 <Taneb> Well, I still have it
16:49:22 <boily> Taneb: bootleg card? that's possible?
16:49:32 <Taneb> I bought it from a dodgy chinese website
16:49:44 <Taneb> It's a few models older than it pretends to be
16:50:23 <Taneb> So I decided to switch to the 310 driver
16:50:35 <Taneb> But that doesn't support what the card actually is
16:50:58 <Taneb> So, after confusing everyone in #ubuntu-steam and #nvidia, I downgraded to 304
16:50:59 <boily> Taneb: there's this reply here that says 12.04 doesn't support legacy drivers, if that's relevant: http://askubuntu.com/questions/148688/getting-unity-3d-working-on-legacy-nvidia-card
16:51:15 <Taneb> It worked before, I'm sure
16:51:17 <boily> (reply meaning the second one)
16:51:39 <Taneb> And also I have no idea how to open links from irssi
16:53:24 <boily> in summary, it says the old 173 and 96 branches aren't supported on 12.04, and that you have to build them manually.
16:53:46 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm trying to use the 304 branch
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17:01:34 <Taneb> Futuerjan: I saw your edits on the Fueue article
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17:12:37 <Taneb> I'm getting increasingly tempted to upgrade to 12.10 to see what happens
17:13:11 <ais523> Taneb: I'm using Ubuntu 12.10, I like it
17:13:22 <ais523> there are some annoying bugs, though
17:13:57 <Taneb> ais523: more annoying than not having a GUI?
17:17:53 <ais523> do you not have a GUI on your current OS?
17:19:15 <Taneb> Graphics card issues
17:19:20 <Taneb> I have no idea what's going on
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17:28:06 <c00kiemon5ter> did you try to remove the drivers and reinstall the "stable/supported" ones provided by ubuntu (or a ppa) ?
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17:30:35 <c00kiemon5ter> I would remove the new drivers, purge any remaining files of them, reinstall the kernel and install the drivers provided by ubuntu/ppa
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19:13:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you'll be relieved to know that my computer is working again!
19:13:46 <Taneb> c00kiemon5ter, thanks
19:36:40 <Taneb> Today, for some reason, me and some friends were talking about how Insane Clown Posse seem to only have one song
19:38:21 <Taneb> Then it turns out we were all thinking of different songs
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19:48:22 <oklopol> oh you mean the song where they rap some bullshift on a background of nothing of interest
19:50:09 <kmc> fizzie: 'pretentiometer' is a great word, thanks
19:50:14 <oklopol> so my job is to write articles about things called subshifts
19:50:26 <oklopol> guess how many times i've almost written that subshit
19:51:21 <oklopol> also a guy who used to work at the uni before me (who has the same name as me) - presumably accidentally - left it as subshit in his phd.
19:51:39 <oklopol> somewhere like page 50 so no one will ever know but anyway
19:51:43 <Taneb> There's more than one oklopol?
19:52:05 <oklopol> no i'm referring to the pseudonym i go by in real life
19:52:33 <Taneb> I think I picked a pretty cool one of those
19:53:00 <Taneb> I sound like a supervillain
19:53:02 <oklopol> yes that's pretty damn awesome
19:53:12 <Taneb> And it literally means "He gave from the house of Thor"
19:53:48 <oklopol> my name means some forest shit
19:54:29 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti alot
19:54:36 <Sgeo> (No new comic)
19:54:58 <Taneb> Hehe, I'm half the list
19:55:31 <Fiora_> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05739.gif
19:56:10 <Taneb> That's what I imagine shachaf doing whenever I post Homestuck in another channel
19:56:45 <shachaf> Taneb................................
19:57:01 <Sgeo> Maybe I should get the ~u hoodie. Sometimes I scare myself with how much I can imagine being that character
19:57:29 <oklopol> so i put some lemon in my milk
19:58:38 <Sgeo> Fiora_, the other cherub
19:58:42 <Sgeo> (Trying to avoid spoilers)
19:58:48 <Fiora_> the other one is scaryyy
19:58:56 <Fiora_> you don't seem very creepy
19:59:16 <Sgeo> I feel like a creep sometimes
19:59:24 <Sgeo> I think I have creeped people out in the past
19:59:40 <Taneb> I creep people out all the time
20:00:10 <Taneb> Might be because I'm 6 foot tall and quite quiet on my feet
20:00:37 <Fiora_> I don't know, competing with the other cherub sounds a little difficult
20:00:38 -!- dessos has changed nick to who.
20:00:54 -!- who has changed nick to dessos.
20:01:14 <Fiora_> Sgeo: yes actually you are such a creep. you are stalking me with homestuck updates. you creep
20:01:34 <Taneb> Little does he know...
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20:06:12 <Taneb> Theory: shachaf actually reads Homestuck but he doesn't want anyone to know because he cosplays Nepeta and is embarrassed
20:06:15 <Sgeo> shachaf, you should start evoling stuff
20:06:37 <Bike> i like this theory
20:09:41 <Bike> good excuse to learn ASL.
20:10:13 <Bike> and grow my hair out, i guess
20:10:54 <Fiora_> your fluffyhair probably would actually look like that grown out too
20:14:27 <shachaf> :33 < don't be prepawsterous, Taneb. your theory n33ds work
20:16:00 <Taneb> I was thinking the other day about categories
20:16:12 <Taneb> And how they're not much like gory cats
20:16:18 <Taneb> Even though they sound sort of similar
20:18:11 <Fiora_> :33 < you sound almeowst purrfect shachaf! his theory is purrfectly fitting.
20:18:29 <Fiora_> :33 < you catpun to make a wonderfurl nepeta too
20:18:40 <Bike> ^rot13 catpuns
20:18:59 <Bike> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
20:22:14 <Fiora_> :33 < meowbe you should make it a habit!
20:23:03 <shachaf> imo Fiora_ is a much better candidate for this
20:23:21 <shachaf> Fiora_: You grew an _. You should have it removed before it's too late.
20:23:28 <Taneb> I haven't seen conclusive proof that Fiora_ and shachaf aren't the same person
20:23:33 -!- Fiora_ has changed nick to Fiora.
20:24:04 <HackEgo> Fiora_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:24:36 <Bike> have we ever seen fiora and shachaf in the same roo- oh, we have.
20:25:27 <Fiora> Taneb: maybe shachaf has DID?
20:27:25 <boily> maybe Fiora is the Canadian counterpart to shachaf?
20:27:47 <shachaf> Fiora: I thought you were from New Zealand..
20:27:57 <Fiora> ... I'm from southern california...
20:28:29 <shachaf> i was in southern california once
20:28:45 <shachaf> In fact I was there just a few months ago.
20:28:47 <Fiora> difference 1 between here and canada: it doesn't get cold
20:29:23 <Fiora> it's 25C right now
20:29:30 <Fiora> (this is a lot warmer than it's been lately, actually, so this is a little unusual)
20:29:55 <Fiora> usually it's ~10-15C
20:30:12 <elliott> (I googled "weather in hexham")
20:30:38 <boily> shachaf: minimum -22 tonight, going to hit around -26 next thursday.
20:30:44 <Bike> oh, it's actually above freezing here, weird.
20:30:57 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#The_weather_in_London
20:31:00 <Bike> elliott: http://www.thefuckingweather.com/?where=hexham&unit=c
20:32:45 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=delete&user=&page=The+weather+in+London&year=&month=-1 oh wow, it's beautiful.
20:32:53 <elliott> Bike: apparently "I CAN'T FIND THAT SHIT"
20:33:02 <shachaf> Fiora++ for being American and using °C, by the way.
20:33:19 <Bike> Peer pressure, man.
20:33:36 <Fiora> I pretty much always use metric
20:33:37 <Bike> Usually I'd use Rankine, but the fucking weather doesn't support it.
20:34:00 <Fiora> though it's frustrating sometimes since like 80% of the time it goes like this
20:34:08 <shachaf> K and R are convenient because you don't have to type °?!?!
20:34:13 <Fiora> "fiora how tall are you 156cm *person puts 156cm into wolfram alpha to convert to feet*"
20:34:28 <Bike> gonna be honest, i have no head for cm.
20:34:43 -!- dessos has left.
20:34:54 <Taneb> I thought Fiora was French
20:35:16 <shachaf> "shachaf how tall are you uh i have no idea let me look at my identification card thing????? oh it's in feet"
20:35:17 <Bike> wow, fiora. where aren't you from?
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20:35:46 <elliott> Fiora is probably just from Helsinki.
20:35:52 <elliott> Bike: do you actually use rankine
20:36:06 <shachaf> oerjan: Fix this immediately.
20:36:18 <Bike> elliott: no, i use rømerjan.
20:36:32 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:36:37 <Fiora> why do people think I'm from all these weird places @_@
20:36:49 <kmc> shachaf: @tqbf says "If you’re interesting in ~30 crypto breaking exercises, mail sean@matasano.com and he’ll get you started (he’s more responsive than me)"
20:36:54 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
20:37:00 <kmc> i don't really understand if this is just open to anyone or what
20:37:03 <elliott> Fiora: It's hard to remember someone's true location when they're from somewhere weird like Kiribati.
20:37:13 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati
20:37:13 <lambdabot> Title: Kiribati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:37:16 <elliott> What's it like in Kiribati???
20:37:34 <shachaf> kmc: I think it's probably open to anyone.
20:37:42 <Bike> well, in a few years kiribati's probably gonna sink, so you'd better take advantage of being in kiribati as much as possible
20:37:58 <Taneb> I thought Kiribati was in Finland
20:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ok this isn't funny any more, everyone knows Fiora is really from ullapool
20:38:21 <kmc> have not emailed yet
20:38:22 <elliott> Fiora: If you sink I won't be able to attend your funeral because Kiribati is really far away, sorry.
20:38:50 <kmc> i just noticed it
20:38:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's kind of a positive in my book
20:38:57 <elliott> don't YOU want an underwater funeral
20:39:02 <Bike> «The name Kiribati is the local pronunciation of "Gilberts", derived from the main island chain, the Gilbert Islands, who in turn were named after the British explorer Thomas Gilbert» ok, that's... kind of amazing
20:39:57 <elliott> I need to remember a more nowhere island sometime, Kiribati has a few too many people I think.
20:40:06 <elliott> The problem is they all have ridiculous names.
20:40:41 <kmc> 'I went to look for a PHP example but stopped when I found rand() used as a stream cipher in a popular framework.'
20:41:14 <elliott> Hmm, what was that barely-existing island I knew the name of once.
20:41:43 <Bike> Remember how you were going to be from Antarctica? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellingshausen_Station
20:42:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica,_pollution,_environment,_Russia,_Bellingshausen_4.JPG great scenery imo
20:42:21 <elliott> Bike: That church is pretty good.
20:42:23 <shachaf> kmc: You should do it and tell me how it goes!
20:42:50 <Bike> oh, or Mestersvig, for the other side of the world.
20:43:13 <kmc> yeah maybe i will
20:43:36 <kmc> Shitholegrad
20:43:43 <Bike> "As of the 2000 census, Point of Rocks had a total population of three" i love these articles.
20:44:24 <elliott> guys does wikipedia have like a globe
20:44:25 <kmc> Kompletskaya Shitholegrad
20:44:27 <elliott> where you can click countries
20:44:31 <elliott> oh I guess I'll just go to google maps
20:44:37 <elliott> and try and zoom in on fuck all
20:44:38 <kmc> there's wikimapia
20:44:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_fewer_than_ten_residents
20:45:09 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's the one
20:45:24 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_places_with_fewer_than_ten_residents
20:45:26 <boily> embarras. he he he :D
20:46:06 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: I like the idea of a place called "Several of the Line Islands".
20:46:23 <Taneb> I live in several of the line islands
20:46:26 <ais523> that article needs deletion, really
20:46:34 <elliott> ais523: I think *you* need deletion.
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20:47:09 <elliott> Bike: by the way, you're now on my list of people to track down and drag along with me to Antarctica some day.
20:47:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you, for one.
20:47:48 <Bike> elliott: cool. did you know for shipping they have to use piers made of ice
20:48:58 <elliott> i went to wikimapia per Bike
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20:49:05 <elliott> and found a tiny little nowhere that looked like it might be it
20:49:12 <elliott> thought aw yeah this looks remote maybe it's it
20:49:18 <elliott> i am not very good at this
20:50:10 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: re norilsk, it could be a lot worse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Military_Vehicle,_Lorino.jpg
20:50:17 <Bike> (caption: "Transport in Lorino")
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20:51:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Easter Island is cool but no it was more remote
20:51:51 <elliott> it was called like some three letter thing
20:52:20 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anadyr_harbour3.jpg hm, looks pretty nice considering where it is
20:52:35 <elliott> by the way someone should give me lots of money so i can go to all these places
20:52:55 <shachaf> elliott: You would go to Hawaii?
20:53:14 <Bike> guam isn't nowhere, it just has more airplanes than people is all.
20:53:42 <boily> I should visit île dorval some time, it's not so far away.
20:53:48 <shachaf> elliott: but that's like america.................
20:53:58 <Bike> btw were you aware that US territories have the worst flags in the world
20:54:01 <elliott> The problem with tiny remote islands is that they're tiny and remote so it's hard to find them.
20:54:02 <Taneb> > let as = ['a'..'z'] in liftA3 (,,) as as as & map (toListOf each)
20:54:03 <shachaf> Other than, you know, geographically.
20:54:10 <lambdabot> ["aaa","aab","aac","aad","aae","aaf","aag","aah","aai","aaj","aak","aal","a...
20:54:12 <elliott> I just zoomed in on hawaii again
20:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there was that one the essex crew landed on-- wait that was henderson island
20:54:40 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Northern_Mariana_Islands.svg i mean what is this
20:54:56 <Taneb> shachaf, why be rational when you can be amazing
20:55:06 <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING
20:55:11 <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens!
20:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> its only significant features are birds and dead people
20:55:26 <Bike> shachaf: i'm getting mixed messages here
20:55:45 <shachaf> Bike: The first thing to ask yourself is: "Am I Taneb?"
20:55:57 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past.
20:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> (i assume everyone has heard the story of the essex because it is amazing)
20:55:59 <Bike> shachaf: I'm no philosopher.
20:56:00 <shachaf> The second thing: "Am I Ngevd?" Then "Am I atriq?" and all the rest.
20:56:06 <Taneb> Bike, are you elliott or a Rabbi?
20:56:18 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
20:56:24 <Bike> When I asked how one became elliott he said he hoped he'd never know.
20:56:40 <elliott> found savai'i which I was previously unaware of the existence of
20:56:52 <Bike> So I don't know, since I'm not as smart as elliott, unless I am elliott, in which case I am as smart as elliott but don't know that because I don't know that I am elliott.
20:56:52 <Fiora> what does everyone want with me ;-;
20:56:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: story of the essex?
20:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it was this whale boat which was literally in real life sunk by a whale
20:57:10 <elliott> Fiora: your true location, clearly
20:57:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: okay that is pretty good
20:57:27 <shachaf> `learn Fiora just wants to be left alone.
20:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> and then the crew sailed across the pacific and ate each other
20:57:38 <Bike> Ok, I was confusing Halifax and Elliott. I mean Essex.
20:58:01 <Bike> Halifax being the town that blew up. Not a whale ship thing guy.
20:58:13 <elliott> not the island I was thinking of though
20:58:35 <Bike> "For the mythical original homeland of the Polynesian peoples (sometimes referred to as Savai'i), see Hawaiki"
20:58:36 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, I missed the beginning of this.
20:58:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is it just me or is it really fucking weird to see water that isn't sort of murky greenbluegrey?
20:58:59 <shachaf> Which island are you looking for?
20:59:00 <Bike> elliott: Just default to hy-brazil and give up
20:59:11 <HackEgo> boily may be French or something. We are not sure about the rest.
20:59:24 <elliott> Hmm, maybe it was a two-letter island?
20:59:35 <boily> `learn boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
20:59:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_short_place_names
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21:00:09 <Bike> Maybe we should use Wikivoyage to figure out which uninhabited pile of rocks elliott wants to set up on.
21:00:30 <elliott> Bike: It's habited!!!!!!!!!!!
21:00:32 <Bike> Wow, that's more "Å"s than I've ever seen in my life.....
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21:01:17 <Bike> «The once-nameless river, known as the "shortest river in the world"[4][5][6][7] was listed in the Guinness World Records as the world's shortest river at 440 feet (130 m). » this is stupid.
21:01:21 <elliott> God dammit, I've forgotten which ocean is which.
21:01:30 <Bike> You already have Mill Ends, Oregon. You can stop.
21:01:40 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:01:43 <shachaf> elliott: the pacific ocean is the good one, hth
21:02:36 <Taneb> elliott, the atlantic is the one you're near
21:02:44 <Bike> The pacific ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The atlantic ocean is less cool than its giant underwater moutain range. The arctic ocean is cold. The indian ocean is full of typhoons and non-eurocentric shipping.
21:02:56 <Bike> Also the divisions don't make any sense any way so fuck 'em, they're all just fucking water.
21:03:21 <shachaf> rename all oceans to "the ocean"
21:03:43 <olsner> too late, they are already the ocean
21:03:59 <kmc> once in a bookstore i saw a book about the oscillatory modes of the world's ocean
21:04:12 <shachaf> olsner: what's the swedish word for ocean
21:04:29 <elliott> I think it might have been Yap
21:04:32 <Bike> "IJ, a double lake in the Netherlands (the digraph IJ is sometimes considered a single letter in Dutch, so this could also be seen as a one-letter name)"
21:04:37 <shachaf> oerjan: what's the norwegian word for ocean
21:04:58 <elliott> oh that's in the Federated States of Micronesia
21:05:11 <Bike> elliott: Oh, this is the place with Rai stones? Not nearly obscure enough.
21:05:17 <oklopol> you don't have your own word for it?
21:05:36 <shachaf> oklopol: what's the finnish word for ocean
21:05:42 <oklopol> we have valtameri, which means power sea.
21:05:45 <elliott> Bike: well, the problem is that there is too much stuff in the world.
21:06:01 <elliott> Bike: Please help me find a tiny barely-inhabited island with a vaguely memorable name to replace it.
21:06:02 <shachaf> oklopol: That's a good prefix.
21:06:08 <shachaf> Do you prepend it to other things?
21:06:16 <Bike> IMO just hole up at Disappointment Island and shoot at passing whalers
21:07:20 <elliott> "In 2004, charges were laid against seven men living on Pitcairn and six living abroad. After extensive trials the men were convicted, some with multiple counts of sexual attacks of children.[15] On 25 October 2004, six men were convicted, including Steve Christian, the island's mayor at the time.[16][17][18] After the six men lost their final appeal, the British government set up a prison on the island at Bob's Valley.[19][20] The men began serving
21:07:27 <elliott> I like how they had to build a prison for the purpose.
21:07:43 <olsner> shachaf: and yet all the cats are gifs?
21:07:59 <elliott> Bike: "These islands are dry, and not especially conducive to human habitation."
21:08:17 <elliott> Oh, I guess you meant the singular one.
21:08:30 <Bike> The one in the subantarctic, yeah.
21:08:59 <elliott> Hmm, Auckland Island looks pretty.
21:09:27 <Bike> "Inacessible Islands", straightforward naming there
21:10:19 <Bike> oh, Deception Island is the one I was thinking of.
21:10:36 <Bike> The deception is that it's in the Antarctic, so you think it'd be cold. It is cold, but also volcanoes will kill you.
21:11:04 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ile_de_la_Deception.svg more importantly, seems like a great place to hide your evil lair.
21:14:50 <Gregor> Bike: They'll rename them once they find a way to access them.
21:15:52 <ion> ಠ_ಠ http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2013-01/rewire-your-file-transfer-routine
21:16:54 <Gregor> Don't most modern ethernet cards do on-the-fly crossover anyway?
21:17:43 <kmc> i think most cards from the past 8 years or so
21:17:44 <ion> Even if the reader’s card doesn’t, why buy a new straight Ethernet cable and then modify it to be crossover?
21:17:51 <kmc> it might even be required by the GigE spec
21:18:22 <olsner> "Automatic MDI/MDI-X Configuration is specified as an optional feature in the 1000BASE-T standard"
21:18:26 <kmc> 'When moving terabytes of data from one computer to another, cut out the external drive... by cutting up an Ethernet cable.'
21:18:34 <kmc> or plugging them into the same switch?
21:19:13 <kmc> i did use direct GigE with jumbo frames when I had to move 5 TB between servers
21:19:14 <olsner> I guess this tutorial is for the kind of people who simply move the internet cable between computers
21:19:24 <kmc> i also configured rsync to use rsh instead of ssh :X
21:21:25 <Sgeo_> o.O did you need to specify using jumbo frames?
21:21:35 <Sgeo_> How much overhead would not using jumbo frames have introduced?
21:23:22 <kmc> i didn't measure it
21:28:38 <elliott> Bike: did you know there's like a billion countries
21:28:48 <Sgeo_> Maybe it could be calculated?
21:29:00 <kmc> depends who you ask elliott
21:29:03 <Sgeo_> How big would the jumbo frames have been?
21:29:12 <Sgeo_> How big are regular frames
21:29:13 <kmc> Sgeo_: the overhead is going to depend on a lot of factors
21:29:29 <Bike> elliott: Apparently most of them aren't in Europe either. Who knew
21:29:47 <kmc> the concern is not so much the number of bytes on the wire as the overhead at OS, driver, and firmware level of having more frames
21:30:00 <kmc> it will depend a lot on the driver
21:30:14 <Sgeo_> So the concern is speed, not amount of data?
21:30:21 <kmc> i don't understand that question
21:30:40 <kmc> the throughput is higher with jumbo frames because each additional frame takes some time to process at various layers
21:30:48 <Bike> There's an organization set up for areas that want to become independent countries. Couple American Native tribes in it iirc
21:31:25 <kmc> it affects higher levels too
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21:31:37 <kmc> either IP is going to fragment to fit the MTU, or TCP is going to send smaller packets, which need acking each
21:33:21 <Bike> huh, i had no idea assyrian nationalism existed
21:34:07 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deception-Tourists.jpg
21:34:56 <Bike> yeah, it's wiped out research stations a few times
21:35:34 <Sgeo_> That seems like not the place to go into water
21:35:52 <Sgeo_> That's some pit other than the obvious one, I assume?
21:36:29 <Bike> what are you talking about
21:36:48 <Bike> it's just a volcanic bath
21:37:27 <Bike> "an Inner Mongolian secessionist movement. The party was started in 1997 in Princeton, New Jersey" ouch
21:45:34 <Taneb> Sounds like a lame party
21:58:43 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Esolang talk:Community portal; 20:56 . . (+518) . . Star651 (Talk | contribs | block) (→Maybe esoteric programming is an adult/mature-content subject ... ?: new section) [rollback]
21:58:50 <elliott> I wonder what this is about.
22:02:40 <Sgeo_> He thinks the word "fuck" is R-rated
22:03:27 <Taneb> This is the same guy who sent PH hatemail for his Tumblr
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22:10:23 <elliott> Snowyowl: on a scale of 0 to 15 how snowy are you
22:11:51 <shachaf> that's not very snowy............................
22:15:25 <Snowyowl> ... oh, someone asked me a question
22:15:52 <Snowyowl> 3.999999952, but that might be a floating-point error.
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22:22:21 <shachaf> i love floating point errors
22:23:26 <Snowyowl> they are only an unfortunate consequence of our lack of infinite-memory computers
22:24:40 <Snowyowl> once I perfect my design for an aleph-null megabyte RAM, such errors will be in the past
22:26:01 <Bike> you want to represent real numbers with only aleph-null memory?
22:26:23 <Fiora> computable reeeals
22:26:41 <Snowyowl> aleph-null bits have aleph-one possible states
22:28:22 <Bike> i won't be using it until we have beth-three ecc ram though
22:30:05 <Snowyowl> wonder what you could do with that
22:30:17 <Snowyowl> functions of functions of reals?
22:30:18 <shachaf> > (pi :: CReal) == (pi :: CReal)
22:30:54 <Bike> I plan to use it for my new startup, which will provide a Facebook-like API to real numbers and their dogs.
22:32:02 <Snowyowl> mind you, this is also assuming infinite clock speed
22:32:30 <Fiora> social networks of real numbers
22:32:49 <Fiora> PI: relationship with 'e': "it's complicated"
22:32:49 <Bike> Unfortunately we can't verify that it's exactly 4.0 yet, but we're working on it.
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22:37:48 <Snowyowl> yall are just quiet cause you're still verifying 4.0 == 3.999999...
22:40:12 <myndzi> is this some variant of 0.999999999... = 1?
22:40:19 <myndzi> 'cause you know how that turns out on the internet right?
22:41:01 <Bike> i'm pretty sure we all know basic math, myndzi.
22:41:17 <shachaf> myndzi: NUH UH 0.99999999... = 2
22:41:19 <Snowyowl> myndzi: somebody drives it off-topic by mentioning an aeroplane on a treadmill
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22:42:08 <Bike> could an airplane on a treadmill going at .999...c through a black hole endorse lens?
22:42:09 <elliott> Fiora: You missed a dumb complex number joke. :(
22:42:36 <elliott> myndzi: Um, you forgot the 7 at the end of 0.99999999...7!!!
22:43:54 <Snowyowl> elliott: 0.999999...7 + 0.000000...2 = 0.999999..., but 0.999999...7 + 0.000000...3 = 1. QED
22:44:25 <fizzie> But does 0.999...5 round up to 0.999...10 or down to 0.999...0?
22:44:34 <Snowyowl> my logic is consistent, although it ears no relation to any actual maths
22:44:39 <Jafet> > 0.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 == 1
22:44:49 <Jafet> > 0.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 == (1 :: CReal)
22:45:12 <Snowyowl> 0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999 === 1
22:45:33 <Snowyowl> ... what language does lambdabot use again?
22:45:56 <lambdabot> [x,f x,f (f x),f (f (f x)),f (f (f (f x))),f (f (f (f (f x)))),f (f (f (f (...
22:46:26 <Jafet> caleskell isn't two-dimensional, sorry
22:46:52 <Bike> Snowyowl: the "> " is important.
22:46:59 <Jafet> (Lambda cube languages are three-dimensional...?)
22:48:21 <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
22:49:09 <lambdabot> ["desserts","stressed","desserts","stressed","desserts","stressed","dessert...
22:49:53 <Jafet> Wonder what befunge is like on the hyperbolic plane
22:49:59 <ion> > permutations "desserts"
22:50:00 <lambdabot> ["desserts","edsserts","sedserts","esdserts","sdeserts","dseserts","ssedert...
22:52:04 <Bike> you also need the space.
22:52:18 <Snowyowl> okay I'll go find a real Haskell interpreter and stop flooding the chat
22:54:51 <elliott> Snowyowl: the space is important too
22:55:02 <Jafet> Not in scope: `real Haskell'
22:55:05 <elliott> Snowyowl: (get the Haskell Platform, if you're serious)
22:55:06 <kmc> Snowyowl: you can private message lambdabot
22:55:15 <Jafet> befunge on penrose tilings
22:55:20 <Bike> Isn't there "befunge but on R^2" somewhere, I swear I saw it
22:55:33 <Bike> you just angled control around. seems like that'd be easy to generalize
22:55:55 <kmc> most ever befungiest funge you befunger funge
22:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> to do it properly you'd obviously have to process an uncountable number of instructions
22:56:05 <Snowyowl> if you only allowed movement in horizontal or vertical directions, it might be interesting
22:56:23 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the only control things are at specified points. it's like bouncing a laser around.
22:56:37 <kmc> `quote <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
22:56:38 <Bike> kinda boring maybe
22:57:10 <Bike> well yeah the practical implementation would be on Q² or whatever you call computables ² but that's "boring"
22:57:43 <Bike> obviously we need superturing power.
22:57:49 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also qdbformat
22:57:55 <Bike> anyway what's the blackboard bold for computable reals
22:58:18 <Snowyowl> no, wait: surreals^2, because fuck well-ordering
22:58:33 <Bike> is ordinals^2 even a sensible anything
22:59:18 <Bike> Did you just... have that already, or...
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22:59:50 <Bike> this is a pretty cruddy soundfont
23:00:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcoerjan: not found
23:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> sadly Sgeo_'s diagonalfish thing is down so his karaoke may be lost to the world
23:00:13 <ion> Wat superturing generated programmatically?
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23:02:08 <Fiora> e^pi is transcendental, pi^pi hasn't been proven to be
23:02:22 <Bike> proving things transcendental is kind of a bitch, isn't it?
23:02:32 <shachaf> i love proving things transcendental
23:02:37 <oerjan> e^pi is transcendental?
23:02:38 <Fiora> the e^pi proof is so elegant though
23:02:46 <kmc> elliott: o
23:02:49 <kmc> `addquote <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
23:02:53 <HackEgo> 919) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
23:03:06 <Fiora> e^pi = (e^(i*pi))^(-i) = (-1)^(-i)
23:03:21 <ion> > [exp pi, pi ** pi] :: [CReal]
23:03:22 <Fiora> since -i is algebraic but not rational, e^pi is transcendental
23:03:23 <lambdabot> [23.1406926327792690057290863679485473802661,36.462159607207911770990826022...
23:04:04 <oerjan> right, -i is still not rational
23:04:12 <Bike> I like the bit about how one of e*pi and e+pi is transcendental, or however it went.
23:04:57 <oerjan> Bike: that works. at least one, probably both, cannot prove either.
23:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> is it the euler-mascheroni constant that hasn't even been proven irrational?
23:05:37 <Bike> oerjan: Cannot prove or just haven't proven?
23:05:55 <Bike> right just checking
23:06:38 <elliott> number γ has not been proved algebraic or transcendental. In fact, it is not even known whether γ is irrational. Continued fraction analysis reveals that if γ is rational, its denominator must be greater than 10^242080.[4]
23:07:14 <elliott> "The continued fraction has *at least* 470,000 terms"
23:07:31 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I could try to retrieve it and put everything on dropbox
23:07:44 <Bike> it's a "barely rational" number, if it's rational :P
23:07:51 <elliott> Sgeo_: do you have talk esme baby
23:08:00 <Sgeo_> elliott, no, but I have my karaoke
23:08:06 <oerjan> Bike: an interesting question whether it could be provable that it is unprovable, though.
23:09:04 <Bike> oerjan: has anything relating to both transcendence and computability been worked on?
23:09:25 <Bike> "The non-computable numbers are a strict subset of the transcendental numbers" well there's something
23:09:29 <Bike> not that e+pi is noncomputable
23:09:47 <Bike> also sort of obvious but whatever
23:10:08 <Bike> "It is conjectured that all infinite continued fractions with bounded terms that are not eventually periodic are transcendental" oooooh
23:10:53 <Bike> ugh of course i don't have access to the paper. damn you free market
23:12:31 <Bike> http://dx.doi.org/10.1007%2FBF02588048
23:14:52 <elliott> Bike: i literally just googled the title
23:14:54 <elliott> and a pdf is the second result
23:15:19 <Bike> well maybe i wanted it /legitimately/ you damn piriahahahaha
23:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure but were you about to say 'piranha' there
23:17:17 <Bike> hm so the two papers i have open are this thing on complex fractions, and something about buddhism vs cartesian dualist neuroscience. ...i wonder if buddhist mathematicians ever came up with continued fractions...
23:23:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he probably meant "pariah" hth
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23:24:08 <Bike> pirahã, of course.
23:25:41 <oerjan> "499 The Aryabhatiya contains the solution of indeterminate equations using continued fractions" may have been a hindu though
23:26:09 <elliott> I like how that ḧ renders in a different font for me.
23:26:25 <Bike> «The Aryabhatiya begins with an introduction called the "Dasagitika" or "Ten Giti Stanzas." This begins by paying tribute to Brahman, the "Cosmic spirit" in Hinduism.»
23:26:46 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80ryabha%E1%B9%AD%C4%ABya#Significant_verses amazing
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23:52:32 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Futuerjan: I saw your edits on the Fueue article <-- HOW CAN YOU DO THAT WITHOUT A GUI?
23:53:48 <oerjan> without being zzo38 or something
23:57:34 <oerjan> <oklopol> guess how many times i've almost written that subshit <-- ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE SUBCONSCIOUSLY SATISFIED WITH YOUR CURRENT JOB