00:26:04 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> Usually I'd use Rankine, but the fucking weather doesn't support it.
00:26:08 <HackEgo> 920) <Bike> Usually I'd use Rankine, but the fucking weather doesn't support it.
00:26:32 <Sgeo_> I cannot live without list comprehensions
00:26:50 <oerjan> just use do-notation instead!
00:27:37 <oerjan> > do x <- [1..10]; y <- [1..10]; return (x*y)
00:27:38 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,...
00:28:11 * Sgeo_ is struggling with Smalltalk
00:28:12 <oerjan> > join.liftM2(*)$[1..10]
00:28:14 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[]' with `(->) [a0]'
00:29:10 <oerjan> > join`id`liftM2(*)$[1..10]
00:29:12 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,...
00:29:27 <Sgeo_> <gokr> #((1 2 3) #(4 5 6)) reduce: [:x :y |
00:29:27 <Sgeo_> <gokr> x gather: [:a |
00:29:28 <Sgeo_> <gokr> y collect: [:b | a + b]]]
00:29:34 <Sgeo_> I have no idea what's going on in that
00:30:18 <oerjan> > liftM2(*)`join`[1..10]
00:30:20 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,...
00:33:53 <oerjan> `learn Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham in Northumberland.
00:34:33 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Fix this immediately. <-- OKAY
00:35:07 <Bike> that wasn't very immediate
00:35:18 <oerjan> it was immediate on logreading
00:35:57 <oerjan> `sed -i 's/ in/,/' wisdom/helsinki
00:35:58 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
00:36:02 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ in/,/' wisdom/helsinki
00:36:09 <Bike> Sgeo_: I'm more confused on what #((1 2 3) #(4 5 6)) is. An array of a list and an array would just be too easy.
00:36:12 <HackEgo> Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland.
00:36:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130104151925]).
00:36:26 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/helsinki
00:36:34 <HackEgo> Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland.
00:37:02 <Sgeo_> Bike, I'm guessing just a redundant #
00:37:08 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
00:37:23 <Sgeo_> Both with and without the inner # ends up printing #(#(1 2 3) #(4 5 6))
00:37:36 -!- comex` has changed nick to comex.
00:39:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i feel these lack a certain something.
00:39:18 <oerjan> and it's not just truth
00:39:31 <Bike> `learn Fiora is from some island somewhere. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons.
00:39:46 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/fiora
00:40:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: DON'T SPEAK LIKE THAT ABOUT YOUR THANE
00:40:27 <Bike> `run sed -i 's/Than/Tho/' wisdom/bike
00:40:40 <Bike> c00kiemon5ter: holy shit XD
00:41:14 <Bike> c00kiemon5ter: actually i know a guy was doing wacky things with llvm bitcode to get partial evaluation in compiled C, it was cool
00:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (Don't do that in front of kmc btw or he'll say you're trolling by proxy)
00:41:45 <Bike> possibly need scare quotes for "partial evaluation" but whatevs
00:41:52 <oerjan> soon Beaky will be emulating STG by hand
00:43:19 <Bike> "imo goto is like the lambda of imperative programming" Holy shit. He's reverse-Steele!
00:43:51 <oerjan> sheesh everyone knows it's tail recursion which is goto.
00:44:16 <Fiora> what areyou people doing <_>
00:44:41 <oerjan> Fiora: stalking, i think
00:45:10 <oerjan> climbing the Beaky-stalk
00:45:23 <tswett> Well, C doesn't have garbage collection...
00:45:36 <Bike> it does with boehm!!!
00:45:42 * elliott has this half-suspicion that beaky is cheater or something.
00:45:58 <Bike> yeah so i've heard
00:46:04 <elliott> oerjan: well he's not cheater
00:46:12 <elliott> unless cheater is proxying through UAE
00:46:20 <oerjan> beaky is or something, okay
00:46:38 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, I discovered that my thing won't work unless I add some stuff to circumvent my solution to that one problem.
00:46:51 <oerjan> Fiora: are you secretly beaky
00:47:45 <Sgeo_> What proble, and why do you need to circumvent your solution, is your solution bad?
00:48:16 <tswett> Well, the problem is that NFU is not cartesian closed: there is no function ((a -> b) * a) -> b.
00:48:44 -!- augur has joined.
00:48:50 <tswett> My solution is to let Si a be the set of one-element subsets of a; then we can circumvent this non-cartesian-closure by having a function ((a -> b) * Si a) -> Si b, instead.
00:49:20 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: but I'm talking about a relatively esoteric set theory!
00:49:34 * Sgeo_ has no idea what tswett is doing
00:50:08 <tswett> Uh... well, it's equiconsistent with ZFC.
00:50:09 <Fiora> ummm cookies? I like cookies
00:50:12 <Fiora> are they chcoolate
00:50:22 <Sgeo_> Pasta. With Parmesan cheese.
00:50:32 <tswett> Sgeo_: and tomato sauce?
00:50:33 <elliott> Fiora: You americans call all biscuits cookies right?
00:50:53 <Sgeo_> I only use ketchup when there's no cheese
00:50:55 <tswett> So *that's* what the Brits call biscuits.
00:51:01 <tswett> So... what do they call scones?
00:51:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Americans are weird.
00:51:09 <Sgeo_> What's a scone? I've heard of them
00:51:12 <elliott> tswett: What do you call scones???
00:51:24 <tswett> elliott: as far as I know, American scones are the same thing as British scones.
00:51:47 <Sgeo_> The first I've been exposed to the word "scone" was in Dilbert
00:51:50 <elliott> Americans don't even have, like, digestives do they?
00:52:04 <Sgeo_> Where Dilbert gives a guy a styrofoam cup and claims it's a scone
00:52:26 <tswett> My only exposure to digestive biscuits is an episode of Arthur in which the titular character discovers a tin of them buried in his back yard.
00:52:39 <tswett> He decides they probably have something to do with Reader's Digest.
00:52:48 <oerjan> <c00kiemon5ter> is Fiora a terrorist ? <-- not everyone from the uae is a terrorist, c00kiemon5ter. some are filthy rich oil billionaires or their slaves.
00:52:52 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
00:53:11 <tswett> "Round-shaped British scones can resemble North American biscuits in appearance, but scones rely on cold butter for their delicate, flaky texture, while biscuits are more often made with animal fat or vegetable shortening and are crumbly rather than flaky."
00:54:00 <tswett> Of course, butter is animal fat... right?
00:54:13 <elliott> btw you guys should have digestives they are really quite nice despite appearances
00:54:17 <tswett> Does "animal fat" mean something other than "fat that comes from an animal"?
00:54:22 <Sgeo_> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-05-06/
00:54:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think of chocolate digestives
00:54:29 <oerjan> <tswett> Uh... well, it's equiconsistent with ZFC. <-- completely equi-?
00:54:49 <Sgeo_> The other mention of scones in Dilbert that I haven't seen until now http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-01-28/
00:54:59 <tswett> oerjan: I think so? ZFC is consistent if and only if NFU is consistent, if I remember correctly.
00:55:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think they are pretty good sometimes
00:55:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: maybe you have had the milk chocolate kind
00:55:20 <elliott> that kind is not very good
00:55:40 <tswett> British biscuits sound like crappy cookies.
00:56:07 <tswett> Therefore, Oreos are biscuits?
00:56:19 <tswett> I must consult oreo.co.uk.
00:56:20 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:56:49 <tswett> British Oreos are biscuits.
00:56:56 <tswett> And they have telly ads.
00:57:37 <oerjan> tswett: it doesn't count as animal fat if the animal survives the procedure, thus butter isn't.
01:01:14 <Sgeo_> GRRRR I HATE THIS APARTMENT
01:01:33 <Sgeo_> STUPID FLY/BUG/WHATEVER DECIDED TO DIE IN MY POT OF BOILING WATER RIGHT BEFORE I WENT TO PUT SOME PASTA IN
01:02:32 <elliott> i mean it's not that they're bad
01:02:37 <elliott> but they say the biscuity parts are chocolate
01:02:48 <Sgeo_> I poured out the water and started again
01:02:49 <elliott> they don't taste of chocolate it just tastes of... black
01:02:54 <Sgeo_> I'm very annoyed because I'm hungry
01:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, uh don't you boil it in a kettle and then pour it onto the pasta
01:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> or is that thing about americans not having kettles actually true??
01:03:26 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:03:37 <Sgeo_> I think I've seen a kettle onc
01:03:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:03:47 <elliott> how do you make tea exactly
01:04:10 <elliott> do you like boil it in a pan and use that
01:04:21 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, put it in the pot, turn stove on, wait 15 minutes
01:04:42 <Sgeo_> (there is probably some wasted time but don't care)
01:05:37 <elliott> & your weird american bvgs
01:05:53 <elliott> wow abbreviating beverages as "bvgs" feels at least 120% punk
01:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> observe process of coddled american trying to make coffee without assistance from mechanical nanny: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=2056
01:07:04 <Sgeo_> elliott, I assume other Americans do have kettles, btw
01:07:22 <Sgeo_> Do not assume that I am a typical American
01:07:56 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
01:08:39 <Sgeo_> What's the difference pronounciation-wise?
01:08:55 <Sgeo_> ah as in open mouth say ahh?
01:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> construct in your head the Standard American British Person
01:09:58 <oerjan> tswett: i don't read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Foundations as implying NFU is as strong as ZFC. "to our usual base theory, NFU + Infinity + Choice. This base theory, known consistent, has the same strength as TST + Infinity, or Zermelo set theory with Separation restricted to bounded formulas (Mac Lane set theory)."
01:11:12 <kmc> queen of the dragons eh
01:11:59 <kmc> 'Disgruntled Williamsburg Resident Arrested After Making 403 Phony 911 Calls About Hipsters' not the onion
01:12:06 <kmc> elliott: yes why
01:12:13 <kmc> just a stove one, not an electric one
01:12:25 <elliott> you're all so fucking weird
01:12:30 <kmc> at work we have a fancy japanese hot water heater than plays a tune when it's done
01:12:43 <kmc> we make tea by boiling water on the stove
01:12:50 <elliott> that's so much fuss though
01:15:29 <Sgeo_> I think I might not know what a kettle is
01:15:41 <Sgeo_> I though they're things that go on a stove that hold water and whistle when water is boiling
01:15:53 -!- monqy has joined.
01:16:11 <elliott> yes that is one kind of kettle
01:16:24 <elliott> there is also the kind you plug in and they contain water and have a little poury thing and you press them and the water gets hot
01:16:44 <elliott> http://tesco.scene7.com/is/image/tesco/778-6535_PI_TPS1508478?wid=170&hei=170&$Offers$ like this
01:17:45 <monqy> my lecrci keetle has multiple materials
01:17:52 <Sgeo_> 17000x17000 is apparently an illegal image size
01:18:13 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it's metal
01:18:22 <kmc> yeah it's the whistly kind
01:18:53 <kmc> does tesco put horse meat in their kettles
01:19:11 <monqy> base is plasticy-looking
01:19:36 <kmc> if you want one cup of tea you can also boil water in the microwave and then put a tea bag in
01:19:41 <kmc> watch out for superheated water
01:19:50 <c00kiemon5ter> here is a nice kettle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBw618geqyI
01:20:06 <elliott> kmc: by watch out for you mean aim for
01:20:31 <kmc> i mean the thing where it's above boiling point but doesn't boil due to being in an ultra smooth container
01:20:36 <kmc> then it explodues when you put your spoon in
01:20:42 <oerjan> elliott: but then the water aims for YOU!
01:20:52 <oerjan> it's true, superheating water makes it russian
01:20:58 <monqy> hey are we talking about tea
01:22:36 <elliott> kmc: yes but exploding tea is a good thing???
01:23:37 <kmc> c00kiemon5ter: hahaha nice
01:23:52 <kmc> also the submerged pulsejet part looks like a bong
01:25:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: New Topic Foundation with Urelements | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:25:53 <kmc> überelements
01:26:07 <oerjan> the topic was nearly 10 days old, it smelled
01:27:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you make it into a tea cleverly befor eit explode sometimhow
01:28:56 <monqy> why are u using tea bags
01:29:04 <elliott> monqy: pshawwwwwwwwwwwwww tea snob pshawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:29:10 <elliott> pshawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:29:13 <elliott> pshawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:29:38 <elliott> monqy: for a start its not even allowed for americans to be tea snobs to brits
01:29:42 <elliott> thats the opposite of how its meant to be
01:29:50 <elliott> for an end pshawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
01:30:36 -!- augur has joined.
01:30:43 <elliott> monqy: i forget did i mention pshawwww yet
01:30:45 <monqy> pffff most teas arent even british
01:30:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look what he's saying
01:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> thats like saying, most wines, arent french...............
01:31:20 <elliott> monqy: the important thing isnt who
01:31:31 <elliott> its who oppressed and generally made life miserable for the people who
01:31:42 <elliott> we are really good at that
01:32:14 <elliott> you don't have our work ethic
01:32:25 <elliott> but you're not american so it's okay
01:33:07 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> okay so <elliott> i went to wikimapia per Bike <elliott> and found a tiny little nowhere that looked like it might be it <elliott> zoomed in <elliott> thought aw yeah this looks remote maybe it's it <elliott> turns out it's hawaii <elliott> i am not very good at this
01:33:10 <HackEgo> 921) <elliott> okay so <elliott> i went to wikimapia per Bike <elliott> and found a tiny little nowhere that looked like it might be it <elliott> zoomed in <elliott> thought aw yeah this looks remote maybe it's it <elliott> turns out it's hawaii <elliott> i am not very good at this
01:33:53 <elliott> monqy: also are you saying you drink american teas
01:34:27 <monqy> i like lots of teas!!!! have you tried chinese & japanese teas
01:34:49 <elliott> monqy you literally cant hear how hard im pshawing right now
01:34:54 <elliott> but its definitely too loud to do anything but pshaw
01:35:04 <kmc> tea for dong
01:35:21 <monqy> youre right i dont have milk with it
01:36:04 <monqy> no i just use my normal hands
01:36:16 <oerjan> elliott: is it loud enough to hear over that jettle thing?
01:36:33 <monqy> whats the point.....
01:38:15 <c00kiemon5ter> if you dont stop, elliott will fly there with his jettle to teach you a lesson
01:40:42 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens! <Taneb> NEVER <Bike> shachaf: i'm getting mixed messages here
01:40:46 <HackEgo> 922) <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens! <Taneb> NEVER <Bike> shachaf: i'm getting mixed messages here
01:40:58 <elliott> um is that spacing really correct
01:41:06 <ais523> the second space is wider than the first
01:41:24 <oerjan> `run sed -i '922s/ / /g' quotes
01:41:33 <HackEgo> 922) <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens! <Taneb> NEVER <Bike> shachaf: i'm getting mixed messages here
01:42:14 <oerjan> ais523: apparently vim puts two spaces after ! when autojoining lines
01:42:30 <ais523> oerjan: Emacs does that too, it's annoying
01:42:40 <ais523> unless you just learn to live with double spaces at the end of a sentence
01:50:24 <oerjan> `run echo "The pacific ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The atlantic ocean is less cool than its giant underwater moutain range. The arctic ocean is cold. The indian ocean is full of typhoons and non-eurocentric shipping." >wisdom/oceans
01:50:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:50:57 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/oceans
01:51:21 <oerjan> Bike: i thought your wisdom fit better as wisdom than as a quote. hth.
01:57:10 <Sgeo_> Maybe I don't hate OO as much as I thought I did
01:57:38 <monqy> what does that mean
01:57:42 <Sgeo_> In functional language channels, I tend to find myself asking hypotheticals that are easily resolved in an OO world
01:57:51 <Bike> Sgeo_: i'm sorry, haven't you been fucking with squeak for the last two... whenever after Racket was
01:57:53 <monqy> what does object-oriented mean
01:58:01 <Bike> encapsulation!
01:58:07 <Bike> wait add more exclamation marks
01:58:50 <Sgeo_> Bike, I'm fucking around with Smalltalk because of the IDE and resumable exceptions, not because I suddenly decided to immerse myself in pure OOness
01:59:24 <Bike> Sgeo_: anyway have you implemented Smalltalk-80 as a Racket language yet?
02:00:34 <Sgeo_> I don't really see a point in doing so. Implementing Racket in a Smalltalk environment makes more sense to me
02:01:08 <Sgeo_> I really like the Racket language and Smalltalk environment. Smalltalk-80 as a Racket language would be Smalltalk language and Racket environment.
02:02:04 <kmc> s/ha/cha/f
02:09:19 <oerjan> hallogens, the gases that speak to you
02:10:27 * Sgeo_ remembers when he started playing NetHack for the first time
02:10:33 <Sgeo_> Did something, got Hallu in the status thing
02:10:49 <Sgeo_> I thought it meant Hallelujah, I'm no longer hungry and I was hungry before
02:11:29 <oerjan> > (pi :: CReal) == (pi :: CReal) + 10^^(-100)
02:11:41 <Bike> Hallu is the best status effect in that game
02:11:43 <shachaf> oerjan: It only checks 40 decimal digits.
02:12:35 <oerjan> he'll just use argument from authority (him)
02:13:16 -!- Bike_ has joined.
02:13:30 <shachaf> i love arguments from authority
02:13:47 <oerjan> shachaf: you're a jew aren't you? i don't think you're supposed to be worshipping me like that.
02:14:21 <Bike_> why does it only take forty digits...
02:14:37 <shachaf> I CAN WORSHIP WHOMEVER I WANT
02:14:42 <shachaf> ais523: (How does that look?)
02:14:55 <shachaf> Bike_: People like their programs to terminate or something bizarre like that.
02:15:08 <Bike_> why are you trying to equate reals if you want to terminate
02:15:27 <shachaf> Bike_: They're computable reals. So you want to be able to COMPUTE equality????
02:15:46 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
02:15:48 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
02:15:51 <oerjan> > (pi :: CReal) - (pi :: CReal) + 10^^(-100)
02:16:00 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, that's OK
02:16:04 <oerjan> > (pi :: CReal) - (pi :: CReal)
02:16:05 <shachaf> oerjan: show uses the same 40 digits.
02:16:06 <Bike> so they're just fancy floats
02:16:12 <Bike> oh, guess not if it's just show
02:16:17 <shachaf> Bike: No, you can get them to whatever precision you want.
02:16:29 <shachaf> It's just that show/(==)/etc. take 40 digits.
02:16:36 <Bike> is there "equality up to n digits" standard too or
02:16:44 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm just wondering how it can even calculate the digits.
02:16:47 <oerjan> > (pi :: CReal) - (pi :: CReal) + 1
02:17:01 <oerjan> i guess it has to round at some point
02:17:11 <lambdabot> "3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406...
02:17:46 <shachaf> > let sh = showCReal 100 in sh pi == sh (pi + 10^^(-100))
02:17:53 <shachaf> > let sh = showCReal 40 in sh pi == sh (pi + 10^^(-100))
02:18:13 <Bike> perl-style numeral comparison, i can dig it
02:18:23 <Bike> also this reminds me of when i tried implementing cont frac arithmetic. that was dumb
02:19:00 <kmc> 'A cleaning woman stole an empty commuter train in a suburb of Stockholm and crashed it into a house, injuring herself'
02:20:02 <shachaf> was the house built on train tracks
02:20:19 <shachaf> bad place to build a house imo
02:21:05 <tswett> oerjan: lemme look at the NFU home page again.
02:21:26 <shachaf> Hmm, Google is doing some serious Googlebottage of my website.
02:21:48 <Bike> NFU has a home page?
02:21:55 <kmc> can't stand it, i know you planned it
02:21:58 <tswett> Bike: yep. http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes/holmes/nf.html, by M. Randall Holmes.
02:22:06 <tswett> Holmes states that NFU "is consistent".
02:22:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: New Topic Foundation with Urelements | FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:22:09 <shachaf> How did it even get these URLs?
02:22:40 <Bike> tswett: that's quite an assertion
02:22:48 <oerjan> tswett: that just means it's not stronger than ZFC
02:23:33 <Bike> wait, where's it say that on the page
02:23:44 <Bike> i see "NF is not known to be consistent"
02:23:46 <tswett> "NFU: New Foundations with urelements. This system is consistent, consistent with Choice, and does not prove Infinity but is consistent with it ( Jensen, 1969)."
02:24:09 <tswett> Yeah. NF seems like more of a curiosity.
02:24:16 <kmc> but it's so nice
02:24:40 <tswett> I think NFU is significantly nicer.
02:25:08 <tswett> NFU is pretty much NF, without the assertion that all objects are sets, and with the assertion that given variables x and y, the ordered pair (x, y) has the same type as x and y.
02:26:02 <tswett> The result is a "consistent" theory that has a few nice properties that NF doesn't have.
02:26:27 <tswett> Like, the type of a function is one higher, rather than three higher, than its elements.
02:26:36 <shachaf> i prefer inconsistent systems
02:26:46 <tswett> Inconsistent systems have their uses.
02:27:24 <Bike> why is consistent in scare quotes
02:27:44 <tswett> "Consistent" here just means "consistent if (but not necessarily only if) ZFC is consistent", I think.
02:27:54 <tswett> Sometimes, you want to be able to have an infinitely long proof, or a circular proof, or a proof that leaves some things out.
02:28:17 <shachaf> @where+ falso http://www.inutile.ens.fr/estatis/falso/
02:28:43 <Bike> "Falso is an axiomatic system developed by Estatis Inc." shachaf what is this
02:29:03 <Bike> oh it's a joke, ok
02:30:07 <Bike> "Proportion of true statements
02:30:16 <Bike> ZFC 50%, Falso 99.9%
02:32:47 <tswett> "The above proofs and mathematical ideas are a trade secret and a trademark of Estatis Inc. and have also been copyrighted and patented."
02:32:54 <tswett> Patented trade secrets. The best kind of trade secrets.
02:33:41 <shachaf> now that's what i call "so easy"
02:33:51 <Bike> yes. yes, i love falso.
02:34:01 <kmc> tswett: it fits the theme of inconsistency!
02:44:45 -!- david_werecat has joined.
02:51:33 <HackEgo> david_werecat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:19:37 <elliott> Bike: rip list of places with fewer than ten residents
03:19:46 <Bike> what it's gone already?
03:20:08 <shachaf> elliott.......is this your fault...........
03:21:23 <shachaf> Bike: You should boycott Wikipedia.
03:22:00 <Bike> I uh, I have four articles open already.
03:30:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:09:12 -!- augur has joined.
04:47:26 * oerjan attacks the troll on our wiki head on for once.
04:48:10 <oerjan> which thinking about it may not be wise.
04:48:30 <elliott> not sure "troll" is quite right :P
05:07:14 <kmc> http://defragger.info/
05:08:35 <Bike> man, i loved watching that thing
05:16:06 <kmc> now does anyone have skifree in browser
05:16:31 <kmc> of course I mean a cycle-accurate simulation of a 386 running the original skifree binary
05:16:32 <Bike> my favorite is that chiptunes site that works like an amiga
05:16:45 <kmc> have you seen http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/
05:17:16 <Bike> is that the one that has a visual representation of it running?
05:19:59 <kmc> derived from an actual micrograph of a 6502 die
05:20:27 <Bike> yeah i heard about that hwne it came out, i think it crashed my browser
05:21:05 <shachaf> How do I learn things about computers and audio? I know nothing at all.
05:21:17 <kmc> there's also http://bellard.org/jslinux/ of course
05:21:27 <kmc> i kind of feel like there should be a list of Fabrice Bellard facts
05:21:28 <Bike> that one, shockingly, does actually run
05:21:57 <Bike> shachaf: what specifically are you interested in? like, synth, the linux audio programming hellscape, compression formats?
05:22:01 <kmc> a la chuck norris / oleg / whatever
05:22:04 <kmc> maybe it's all played out though
05:22:39 <kmc> shachaf: it is fun to write small C programs that generate audio waveforms as (say) 16 bit unsigned integers on stdout, and then pipe them into 'play' with appropriate flags
05:22:53 <kmc> generate or filter, i should say
05:23:08 <kmc> of course sox/play can already generate lots of things itself
05:23:47 <shachaf> I'm currently writing Haskell programs that generates various byte patterns and piping into aplay.
05:23:51 <kmc> that is fun too
05:23:56 <shachaf> It is indeed fun, but I have no idea what I'm doing.
05:24:41 <shachaf> I don't know anything about audio waveforms.
05:24:58 <shachaf> I suppose I should read about that.
05:25:27 <kmc> well sure there is plenty to read about
05:25:43 <kmc> but more or less any function that's periodic in an audio frequency will generate some interesting sound
05:26:09 <kmc> sine waves, square waves, triangles, sawtooths are classic examples
05:26:25 <kmc> and you can combine them however -- addition, multiplication
05:26:34 <kmc> multiply some noise by a sine wave etc.
05:26:46 <kmc> more than most programming toys it lends itself to immediate experimentation
05:26:52 <Bike> and if you add waves at different frequencies you can get harmonies!
05:27:04 <kmc> FM synthesis is cool
05:28:13 <Bike> some day i will synthesize strings and it will not sound horrible
05:29:00 <kmc> if you implement FM synth with a couple of knobs, and an ADSR envelope, then you are much of the way toward classic DOS game music (OPL3 / AdLib)
05:29:21 <kmc> i've had a lot of fun playing around with Adlib Tracker II
05:29:38 <kmc> the UI is not great but you can find tutorials on youtube
05:30:05 <kmc> shachaf you should get really good at Adlib Tracker and then we can make a 4k demo for DOS
05:33:54 <kmc> for one of the adlib emulators they decapped an actual OPL3 chip to read out its lookup tables for more accurate emulation
05:36:08 <shachaf> These byte pattern sound a lot like old computer games.
06:33:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:34:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:34:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
06:45:06 <fizzie> Bluhhh it's -19 °C (-2 °F) out there. That's stupid.
06:45:27 <Deewiant> No it's not, it's a temperature.
06:45:30 <shachaf> You should move to Australia?
06:45:45 <fizzie> But I've heard there it's poisonous everything instead.
06:45:55 <fizzie> Every place is stupid in its own way, I understand.
06:46:08 <shachaf> I heard California is the place to be.
06:46:32 <Bike> I thought Fiora was Belgian.
06:46:51 <fizzie> But I've heard you need to have flour in your head there, that doesn't sound fun.
06:46:52 <shachaf> Bike: Since Fiora is the same person as you, you ought to know.
06:47:21 <fizzie> Yes, yes, I've said that before.
06:47:33 <shachaf> I was wondering if it was you!
06:47:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10962
06:48:09 <Bike> Ok, guess she's from Luxembourg then.
06:48:14 <Bike> But maybe she could be, uh, wherever I am now.
06:48:23 <Bike> The Maldives maybe. I hear they're nice.
06:51:07 <HackEgo> Fiora is from some island somewhere. She just doesn't want to be bothered, as she works out her domination plan as immortal queen of the dragons.
06:51:36 <Bike> Is that French?
06:51:41 <Bike> `pastequotes Bike
06:51:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32089
06:53:01 <Bike> What, remove formatting?
06:53:13 <Bike> also: hackego needs to learn about content types.
06:54:16 <Bike> I'm sure codu is just the peripheral manifestation of HackEgo.
07:03:20 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:03:25 -!- DH____ has joined.
07:03:56 <HackEgo> 624) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
07:04:01 <lambdabot> sieni says: python, like php, is just training wheels without the bike
07:04:25 <Bike> Kind of a bad quote.
07:05:03 <lambdabot> sorear says: (after someone complains of ghc using much memory) Only 500M? encode for lists is strict, I would have expected around 80GB usage...
07:05:12 <lambdabot> hgolden says: pioneers are the ones with arrows in their backs. at least ours will be categorical arrows.
07:05:22 <shachaf> what's with all these quotes
07:05:22 <lambdabot> robertmassaioli says: I hereby name (>=>) as "fish" and (<=<) as "back-fish", swim fishy swim, compose those Monads.
07:05:26 <lambdabot> vagif says: Sometimes i wish haskell would force me to do other good things in my life. Like for example start doing yoga or aikido again :)
07:05:52 <Bike> These quotes are from other lambdabottic channels, I assume?
07:05:58 <lambdabot> remember says: the 5th of november
07:06:06 <lambdabot> therp says: and minion pro comes with acrobat reader. I never thought that I would find this proprietary thing useful for anything than blocking my cpu
07:06:23 <Bike> These are boring.
07:06:27 <Bike> Need more bikes imo
07:06:29 <shachaf> Where are the good quotes?
07:06:30 <lambdabot> sieni says: python, like php, is just training wheels without the bike
07:06:34 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Where did you learn to type?
07:06:37 <lambdabot> jjuggle says: I was riding around town and this cop on patrol on a bike rode up next to me and said, "There's always a show off." I offered to teach him to ride and help set up a unicycle patrol
07:06:46 <Bike> Ok, that's not bad.
07:06:48 <lambdabot> dons says: xerox: what analogy or metaphor did you use? monad-as-garbage-bin? monad-as-refrigerator? monads-as-unicycle?
07:06:55 <lambdabot> Cale says: The real reason for the installed size of GHC being so large is that in the background it secretly downloads a video of SPJ riding a unicycle.
07:07:04 <lambdabot> Cale says: The real reason for the installed size of GHC being so large is that in the background it secretly downloads a video of SPJ riding a unicycle.
07:07:04 <Bike> ...why are there so many unicycle quotes?
07:07:07 <Bike> I may have a competitor here.
07:07:12 <shachaf> Bike: Unicycles are very popular in #haskell.
07:07:32 <shachaf> Maybe because shapr (who started the channel) is a fan of them?
07:07:34 <lambdabot> mmorrow says: in langs with dependent types, you can just map numbers directly to types instead of having to ride a unicycle along a tightrope while battling an unruly gang of monkey with knives
07:07:37 <lambdabot> gwern says: I sometimes think of writing Haskell fanfiction where I ship dons and SPJ. "'Dr. Simon...' Don trailed off - 'call me Simon', Simon said, standing erect on his unicycle"
07:07:47 <shachaf> Also I guess SPJ rides them?
07:07:58 <Bike> "rides" if you know what i mean
07:08:24 <lambdabot> twb says: But, I love my job. It's like being in a rock band. i.e. no pay, but fun.
07:08:41 <HackEgo> 73) <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love \ 134) <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense. \ 137) <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible) \ 172) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not \
07:09:02 <shachaf> fungot: do you love monoids?
07:09:04 <fungot> shachaf: indeed you do. ;p cannabis and fnord are left to right
07:09:13 <shachaf> fungot: do i love monoids?
07:09:14 <Bike> big fan of Either it seems
07:09:14 <fungot> shachaf: i don't suggest adding palette support and different color space can be on lots of srfis to provide different, incompatible features to do some of those pics taken out at daytime are underexposed, i guess
07:09:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:09:26 <Bike> color spaces in srfi. the horror...
07:09:48 <shachaf> monqy: do you love anything
07:09:58 <shachaf> (things like monoids or other things)
07:10:05 <shachaf> monqy: what!not even monoids
07:10:30 <Bike> What's a comonoid?
07:10:42 <shachaf> Bike: Apparently comonoids are boring in Hask.
07:12:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quonqy: not found
07:12:16 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
07:12:59 <Bike> @let (:t) = id
07:13:18 <Bike> Some things are important, shachaf.
07:13:33 <shachaf> Bike: You would do it by letting t = a list
07:14:28 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
07:14:52 <Bike> How am I supposd to have colons in identifiers! What an outrage.
07:15:19 <shachaf> You can have colons in identifiers.
07:15:34 <shachaf> (And :t isn't an identifier.)
07:15:41 <Bike> Why not? It should be.
07:16:43 <Bike> Can I learn Calegda?
07:17:32 <Bike> I don't speak Korean, sorry.
07:19:06 <shachaf> Bike: Agda lets you name identifiers almost anything!
07:19:25 <monqy> agda identifier naming is cute
07:21:11 -!- SirCmpwn has changed nick to SirCmpmn.
07:21:15 -!- SirCmpmn has changed nick to SirCmpwn.
07:34:33 <fizzie> Oh no. :/ Every day I come to work, that dick is more and more tilted.
07:34:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130110-crop.jpg -> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130118-crop.jpg that's like eight days.
07:35:14 <fizzie> (It's about man-high, in case the scale isn't quite obvious.)
07:38:38 <fizzie> No, I just walk past it in the mornings these days.
07:38:40 -!- md_5|away has changed nick to md_5.
07:38:51 <fizzie> (It's approximately next to Ossinlampi there.)
07:41:42 <shachaf> kmc: I tried something -- did you get any Twitter notification?
08:07:50 -!- ogrom has joined.
08:18:41 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:54:02 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:03:38 -!- atehwa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:05:06 -!- atehwa has joined.
09:08:01 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:24:13 -!- carado has joined.
09:25:33 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:28:41 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:42:31 -!- augur has joined.
10:10:30 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
10:20:05 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
10:20:32 -!- fizzie has joined.
10:53:52 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
11:03:41 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
11:29:10 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:46:19 <ion> https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=%22armstrong%22+%22the+moon%22
11:46:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:05:17 -!- syncLock has joined.
12:05:42 -!- syncLock has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:08:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:11:18 -!- monqy has joined.
12:17:17 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
12:19:16 <HackEgo> synLock: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:23:09 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
12:28:45 <Sgeo_> shachaf, OOTS update
12:53:59 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:06:35 -!- ais523 has quit.
13:15:28 -!- boily has joined.
13:28:44 <Sgeo_> Ok, I am hungry. I should eat.
13:42:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_ begins to understand the needs of his new human form
13:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps he shall encounter some hilarious mixup whilst attempting to purchase food with human money
13:46:32 <c00kiemon5ter> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152413599715277 ~ 100 likes per sec
13:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> they both look stupid enough that it might even be true
13:54:02 <fizzie> Heh, that was amusing. Today at work https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130118-cola1.jpg "hmm, what are those papers" https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130118-cola2.jpg
13:58:25 <Sgeo_> Any carbonated beverage?
13:59:04 <fizzie> I didn't stop to read the paper in question, but it's probably in the Internet.
14:00:01 <fizzie> Drinking 2 or more colas per day was associated with increased risk of chronic kidney disease (adjusted odds ratio = 2.3; 95% confidence interval = 1.4-3.7). Results were the same for regular colas (2.1; 1.3-3.4) and artificially sweetened colas (2.1; 0.7-2.5). Noncola carbonated beverages were not associated with chronic kidney disease (0.94; 0.4-2.2)."
14:00:36 <fizzie> (From the "Results" section I cleverly cut away.)
14:01:04 -!- oonbotti has joined.
14:02:26 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure they define it in the text.
14:04:21 <fizzie> It seems like it's just the word they used in the interviews the thing is based on.
14:06:45 <Sgeo_> That seems like a bad idea
14:08:47 <fizzie> Or possibly there was an explicit list. It's slightly hard to say.
14:09:01 <fizzie> (The interviews were done in 1982-1983.)
14:36:55 -!- david_werecat has joined.
14:37:31 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
14:39:22 -!- davidwerecat has joined.
14:41:47 -!- boink666 has joined.
14:42:01 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:44:56 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:46:04 <impomatic> Whoops. I drink 2 litres of Cola a day :-(
14:50:44 <Fiora> lots of things seem to hate kidneys
14:50:59 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurses%27_Health_Study showed a 50% increase in the most common form of kidney cancer from regularly taking nsaids
14:53:48 <impomatic> At the rate of likes, Petter Kverneng should be getting laid in approx 62 minutes!
14:54:18 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
14:56:00 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:56:17 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
14:58:55 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split).
14:59:23 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Client Quit).
14:59:30 -!- tswett has joined.
15:09:23 <Sgeo_> I commented on a Dilbert strip
15:09:30 <Sgeo_> The comment appears not to be present
15:11:33 <Sgeo_> impomatic, I think it got another hundred thousand between when you said that and just now
15:11:48 <Sgeo_> (Or when I checked after you said that and just now, to be more exact)
15:27:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:53:42 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
16:07:57 <kmc> Fiora: o_O
16:32:07 <kmc> Fiora: do you know how often they mean by "regularly"?
16:34:07 <Sgeo_> 1,101,114 people like this.
16:45:41 <Sgeo_> Is this a horribly unprofessional picture?
16:45:41 <Sgeo_> http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/media/p/1/000/1ef/023/1a57a0b.jpg
16:47:07 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:48:12 <Sgeo_> That's my LinkedIn profile picture, I don't know if it's bad
16:49:26 <kmc> it's a fine picture
16:49:33 <kmc> i would adjust the color levels though
16:49:43 <c00kiemon5ter> well, I have a happy cookie for a pic, so it is definately "better" if the people searching judge by the profile pic or its quality
16:51:47 * Sgeo_ doesn't really know anything about color levels
16:52:07 <Sgeo_> Except I used an EXIF viewer on it to make sure my location wasn't in it, and it said something about random color levels
16:53:44 <kmc> you can load it in Gimp and play with the levels and curves dialogs
16:53:52 <kmc> there's an 'auto' button that usually does an ok job
16:55:41 <Sgeo_> I think the next thing I want to do is rewrite my resume in LyX
17:01:50 -!- boink666 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:02:04 <kmc> mine is written in LaTeX and based on http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/linux/latexres/
17:02:26 <elliott> mine is non-existent but it's written in @
17:02:35 -!- carado has joined.
17:03:14 -!- aloril has joined.
17:04:35 <Jafet> You should put that on your résumé.
17:07:35 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:10:19 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
17:11:36 <kmc> elliott's resume is just the single character '@' sized to fill a sheet of A4 paper
17:12:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:12:17 <kmc> see also http://i.huffpost.com/gen/683049/thumbs/o-NIC-CAGE-JOB-APPLICATION-570.jpg?12
17:15:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:16:23 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:20:22 <oerjan> you know, if our current topic were an accurate representation of our community's way of working, i suspect the languages on the wiki would be quite a bit more interesting.
17:21:29 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> shachaf, OOTS update <-- ooh
17:22:17 <Sgeo_> `run echo "echo shachaf oerjan" > bin/olist
17:22:31 <Sgeo_> `run chmod a+x bin/olist
17:25:09 <Jafet> RSS shunning syndrome, one of the worst ailments known to webcomic fans
17:31:14 <oerjan> Jafet: i actually had OOTS on rss once, but something was so buggy it kept giving me old comics as new
17:31:49 <Jafet> The old strips were the better ones, anyway.
17:35:15 <Sgeo_> oerjan, the Twitter feed I maintain bugged out like that once
17:35:34 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> they both look stupid enough that it might even be true <-- name looks norwegian too
17:35:36 <Sgeo_> Because I was using an old service. That service stopped working, so I added one, but never removed permissions from the old one
17:40:46 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
17:41:45 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> That's my LinkedIn profile picture, I don't know if it's bad <-- now i know what you look like *MWAHAHAHA* also that picture should give you some excellent offers, provided you are looking for a career in crime
17:42:19 <oerjan> try smiling next time hth
17:43:25 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:43:38 <oerjan> (it takes skill _not_ to look like a criminal in photobox pictures.)
17:44:41 <kmc> i hear that crime pays
17:45:24 <oerjan> it looks like it's taken in one of those cheap airport of whereever boxes with curtains
17:46:05 * Sgeo_ used a mirror, his phone, and an image editor with a cropping tool
17:47:04 <oerjan> right, probably even worse.
17:47:40 <oerjan> i recall i once had an id photo that i was quite satisfied with. but i got it after visiting a professional photographer shop.
17:48:27 <Gregor> He was wearing a caulander on his head.
17:49:36 <oerjan> what's to complain about it, it's even solvable!
17:49:51 <oerjan> when you get to S5 you can start complaining
17:50:00 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull.
17:51:01 <coppro> oerjan: I've got a graph. I need to show it's a Cayley graph. I think it's over S_3^2
17:51:24 * oerjan doesn't remember cayley graphs.
17:52:28 <coppro> oerjan: let G be a group and let C be a sub*set* of the group that is closed under inverse and doesn't contain the identity
17:53:12 <coppro> Define X(G,C) to be the graph where V(X(G,C)) = G and where a ~ b iff ab^{-1} \in C
17:54:02 <coppro> I know that in this case, |G| = 36 and |C| = 15
17:56:12 <oerjan> hm i guess you don't have the colors described in the wikipedia article
17:57:37 <oerjan> 36 vertices and each vertex has 15 adjacent edges?
17:58:52 <oerjan> that's going to be a messy diagram
18:01:18 <oerjan> Gregor: wiktionary helpfully asks "Did you mean: colander"
18:01:34 <oerjan> which seems to fit, i guess
18:03:37 <Gregor> OK, so I can't spell AND you don't know the joke X-D
18:04:38 <coppro> oerjan: yeah, we aren't working with colors
18:04:44 <coppro> oerjan: so yeah, it's messy
18:05:48 <oerjan> 15+1 = 4*4, is it possible that it's taken by using 3 generators + the identity from each factor group?
18:06:04 <oerjan> (and then dropping the identity of the whole)
18:06:29 <coppro> possible, but please don't help
18:06:38 <oerjan> it's noted on wp that the cayley group of a product is a product of the graphs
18:13:31 <oerjan> i would have added that but coppro makes a pretty shitty princess
18:25:00 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:25:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
18:27:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:28:27 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
18:32:52 <coppro> oerjan: yes, please stop helping, this is homework
18:35:16 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:36:19 <elliott> oerjan: i want to know the answer. please tell me.
18:37:00 <olsner> oerjan: I want coppro to fail his homework after cheating. please tell him.
18:44:45 <oerjan> elliott: i don't actually know the answer, as he hasn't provided the actual graph...
18:49:24 <kmc> we don't have A4 paper here in America
18:49:43 <kmc> we have something that is basically the same but slightly different for no reason
18:52:02 <fizzie> I just tried to print a quick LibreOffice document today. It had defaulted to Letter, and then I got to fiddle with really unintuitive printer menus to tell it to go ahead and put it on A4 instead.
18:52:19 <fizzie> It was the 2013 equivalent of PC LOAD LETTER.
18:52:28 <oklopol> is this non sequitur friday?
18:52:39 <boily> oklopol: not yet, I have my orange shirt on.
18:53:19 <fizzie> I assume this was still in the context of the hour-and-a-half-ago comment that involved A4 paper.
18:53:24 * oerjan imagines boily highlighting on "non sequitur"
18:54:01 <oklopol> rather imagine me actually highlighting on *non sequiturs*.
18:54:42 <oklopol> because i like being imagined
18:55:10 -!- Bike has joined.
18:55:17 <oerjan> sorry, your ai-complete technology is unimaginable
18:55:24 <Sgeo_> trust me trust me trust me yeah!
18:56:10 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvWBgyfKLg
18:56:21 * Sgeo_ has that song in his head
18:58:07 -!- Snowyowl has joined.
19:03:59 -!- monqy has joined.
19:13:08 <olsner> #esoteric is like 50% hi monqy, 50% homestuck updates
19:13:43 <Snowyowl> wait, is there a homestuck update?
19:16:24 <Snowyowl> last night someone asked me whether the Cartesian product ordinals*ordinals was a thing
19:16:55 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
19:17:27 <Bike> a collection of what
19:18:14 <Snowyowl> a collection of ordered pairs of ordinals
19:18:26 <oerjan> if the ordinals are a class in the NGB sense, then so is their cartesian product.
19:18:33 <Snowyowl> but good question, that's how you maths
19:19:07 <Bike> so do ordinals form a class? or just a "collection", whatever that is
19:19:16 <oerjan> (and by if, i mean they do)
19:19:38 <Snowyowl> i'll just go hide in a corner now
19:20:34 <oerjan> basically since the pair of two ordinals is a set, you can make the class of all of them
19:27:02 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:29:58 <Sgeo_> How do code browsers work in prototype-based OO environments?
19:31:36 <Sgeo_> "Self worlds can be built from scratch from the sources - see below for download instructions. "
19:33:43 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
19:36:46 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:39:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
19:42:55 * Sgeo_ wonders if web browsers count as browsers in the Smalltalk sense at all
19:43:43 <Bike> maybe if HTTP had more messages than GET and PUT
19:43:56 <olsner> did smalltalk and the web ever exist at the same time?
19:43:57 <Lumpio-> There's POST PATCH and DELETE too.
19:44:11 <Lumpio-> I think PATCH is nonstandard maybe
19:44:25 <Sgeo_> olsner, Smalltalk didn't exist. There wasn't an EMP that wiped all Smalltalk images and now Smalltalk is dead forever, or anything
19:44:34 <Sgeo_> ....*Smalltalk didn't stop existing
19:44:51 <fizzie> There's OPTIONS and CONNECT, too.
19:45:27 <fizzie> (And I suppose POST is in fact more common than PUT.)
19:46:00 <olsner> I think get, head and post are the only ones used in practice
19:46:23 <fizzie> CONNECT is used when you want to use a proxy for HTTPS stuff.
19:46:34 <fizzie> The sort of proxy that doesn't man-in-the-middle you, anyway.
19:47:07 <fizzie> (The PATCH method -- RFC5789 -- seems to be at PROPOSED STANDARD status at the moment.)
19:47:55 <fizzie> WebDAV adds quite a few methods too, but maybe that doesn't quite count as HTTP any more.
19:48:17 <fizzie> Though the official name *is* "HTTP Extensions for Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV)".
19:48:53 <olsner> does http allow arbitrary methods? or do you make an extended http when you make up a method?
19:49:09 <fizzie> GET, POST and HEAD are the only pre-1.1 ones, so it sort of makes sense they're also the only ones that get used.
19:49:12 <Lumpio-> Nope, the standard doesn't allow extra methods.
19:49:30 <Lumpio-> Yeah and apparently some browsers (or perhaps mostly proxies) have trouble understanding anything besides HEAD/GET/POST
19:49:47 <fizzie> "The set of common methods for HTTP/1.1 is defined below. Although this set can be expanded, additional methods cannot be assumed to share the same semantics for separately extended clients and servers."
19:49:50 <Lumpio-> So pretty much every "hey we're RESTful yo" kinda thing actually uses POST for everything and a field to specify the "actual" method.
20:03:32 -!- FreeFull_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:05:16 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:08:42 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:10:20 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
20:12:13 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:12:16 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-12/commonly-used-pain-pills-increase-kidney-cancer-risk-in-study.html
20:12:54 <Fiora> bleh, it doen't have a link to the study :<
20:13:09 * Fiora keeps using ibuprofen anywas >.>;
20:13:40 <Lumpio-> Everything that "increases cancer risk" ends up in the news
20:13:54 <Lumpio-> Even if it's only when you get 50kg of it every day or it only increases it by 0.00000002% or whatever
20:14:09 <Fiora> that was from the Nurse's Study though, which is rather a big deal
20:14:22 <Fiora> (51% increase in risk, N=125000 over 20 years)
20:14:25 <kmc> that's too bad
20:14:39 <kmc> i take ibuprofen when I have a headache which is... not that often?
20:14:44 <kmc> but maybe i should try harder not to
20:14:45 <Fiora> Yeah, basically the same here
20:14:47 <kmc> i thought it was super safe :(
20:15:08 <Fiora> Tylenol always worries me though because of its liver toxicity
20:15:19 <Fiora> I wonder if they found any link there, or if it's only if you take too much
20:15:41 <kmc> how does that compound with alcohol i wonder
20:16:41 <Fiora> wikipedia says chronic alcohol abuse increases the risk of tylenol (probably since it means less liver cells so easier to reach a toxic dose?)
20:17:59 <Fiora> I really wish wikipedia had the p-values for some of the results from that study though
20:18:03 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
20:18:57 <kmc> i don't trust p-values
20:19:11 <kmc> 20 people do a study, 19 people get no result and don't publish, one person gets an awesome significant p=0.05 result!!
20:19:52 <Bike> is this a sarcastic xkcd joke, i'm confused
20:20:10 <kmc> no it's just a thing that happens
20:20:42 <kmc> i guess once xkcd makes a strip about any existing phenomenon or item of culture it becomes forever 'an xkcd reference'
20:21:05 <Bike> i'm just trying to correlate the possibly sarcastic multiple exclamation marks with your use of goatkcd
20:21:05 <Snowyowl> people are trying to convince scientists to publish negative results.
20:21:28 <kmc> some of the negative results journals are interesting reading actually
20:21:36 <Bike> like you meant "haha, people who say they don't trust p-values don't know anything about stats and are just parroting xkcd"
20:21:46 <kmc> a lot of them are like "this seemed promising but we ran out of funding before we could finish"
20:21:56 <kmc> Bike: sorry 4 the confusn
20:22:02 <Bike> http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0020124 also
20:22:08 <kmc> also it's just fun to see what people think of trying
20:22:20 <Fiora> kmc: I meant more that, it's such a huge study that it'd be cool to know which conclusions are reliable
20:22:29 <Fiora> like, I could totally believe them finding conclusions with p=0.001
20:22:36 <kmc> http://www.jnrbm.com/
20:22:37 <Fiora> since most studies have 100 times lower
20:22:47 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:22:49 <kmc> that's kind of artifical though
20:23:08 <kmc> if you pick any two things in the world, there is probably *some* correlation and if you pump the sample size high enough, you can get any p value you want
20:23:16 <elliott> I just don't take painkillers
20:23:17 <Fiora> that "most published research findings are false" is awesome though
20:23:31 <elliott> it seems to work out okay because I can never tell if they are working or not anyway
20:23:42 <kmc> "Could titanium oxide coating from a sol--gel process make stone baskets more resistant to laser radiation at 2.1 mum?"
20:23:43 -!- Bike has joined.
20:24:23 <Fiora> ibuprofen is like, the only NSAID that works well for me >_<
20:24:41 <elliott> kmc: correlation between bathtub manufacturing and dying in space
20:24:54 <Bike> wonder if i should look up studies on the effectiveness of the antidepressants i'm on
20:24:57 <Snowyowl> You're right. The actual result probably won't affect my life too much, but it's interesting to see what they did, how they did it, and why they got the results they did.
20:24:58 <Bike> probably would not cheer me
20:25:12 <Snowyowl> elliott: torture the data and it will admit to anything
20:25:40 <kmc> just use a log log plot
20:26:04 <olsner> why torture the data? just torture the subjects and they'll give you any data you want
20:26:08 <Fiora> the side-effects of SSRIs don't seem so bad at least
20:26:25 <kmc> they're really bad for some people
20:26:34 <Bike> you mean besides the increase in suicidal ideation or
20:26:41 <kmc> also once you're on them it's hell to get off
20:27:00 <Bike> fucking three pages of warnings about how i'm going to die, man.
20:27:03 <Fiora> I thought the increase in suicidal ideation was immediate after starting them, because it gave people more motivation? XD
20:27:16 <kmc> yeah that's what i've heard too
20:27:18 <Bike> motivation isn't ideation, but there's that too yes
20:27:43 <olsner> something like, it increases motivation before it starts treating depression?
20:27:47 <Fiora> I dunno, I ran out of mine a while ago and really didn't feel like going to ask for more
20:28:05 <kmc> did you have awful withdrawal symptoms?
20:28:07 <Bike> olsner: in part.
20:28:22 <Fiora> I followed the same regime as for starting (cut dose in half, then to zero after a week)
20:28:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:28:27 <Fiora> I didn't notice anything
20:29:02 <Fiora> I was kind of frustrated that they conflicted with tryptans
20:29:15 <Fiora> "tryptans are totally safe! except if you're taking SSRIs. then they'll kill you."
20:29:31 <Phantom__Hoover> <Fiora> Tylenol always worries me though because of its liver toxicity
20:30:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:30:13 <olsner> err, according to wikipedia, tryptan is an essential amino acid?
20:30:17 <Fiora> not tryptan. they are not the same thing.
20:30:49 <Fiora> Phantom__Hoover: yeah, it's just like, it has a relatively low gap between toxic and effectivenes.s I forgot what the word was for (toxic dose) / (effective dose)
20:31:02 <Fiora> the max dose per day is around ~4g, the toxic dose is around... 10g
20:31:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:31:52 <kmc> there are a lot of physicians who think tylenol should not be available over the counter
20:32:29 <Fiora> they feel it's that dangerous relative to the others?
20:32:44 <elliott> paracetamol (AMERICAN TRANSLATION: TYLENOL) scares me
20:32:45 <kmc> yeah for this reason
20:32:57 <kmc> the toxic dose is not much higher than the effective dose
20:32:59 <Bike> probably the incredibly wide use is a factor
20:33:04 <kmc> it's easy to kill yourself accidentally or deliberately
20:33:25 <Fiora> I remember reading that it's really dangerous suicide-wise because it's easy to take a whole bunch and not die immediately, and feel fine
20:33:29 <Fiora> but 3 days later your liver fails
20:33:31 <olsner> having used as the default pain killer forever, I am not the least scared of paracetamol
20:33:43 <olsner> hmm, accidentally a paracetamol there
20:33:45 <fizzie> Oh, is paracetamol the same thing as tylenol? I had no idea.
20:33:47 <elliott> Fiora: iirc by the time you feel anything it is already too late and you are going to die no matter what, or something
20:33:51 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not scared of it probably because my parents have been giving it to me since forever and they're doctors?
20:33:53 <Fiora> a close friend of mine actually tried to kill herself with tylenol a few years ago
20:34:01 <Fiora> she probably survived because she managed to puke it all up
20:34:04 <Sgeo_> Tylenol scares me, but Aspirin is probably more dangerous for me since I'd need to force myself to eat
20:34:09 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:34:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
20:34:27 <Sgeo_> As far as I know my liver is in good working order, and I am careful with how much Tylenol I take
20:34:36 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, it's also called APAP
20:34:39 <Phantom__Hoover> (My mother was actually in a transplant ward with a woman who lost her leg and liver from an accidental overdose.)
20:35:10 <Fiora> I remember also that like surgeons tell people to take tylenol instead of NSAIDs during recovery I think, because it isn't a blood thinner
20:35:13 <Fiora> while aspirin/ibuprofen are
20:35:19 <fizzie> There's a brand in Finland too, but it's also known as paracetamol. I keep forgetting it.
20:35:57 <fizzie> That sure has a long list of countries in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paracetamol_brand_names next to it.
20:36:03 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm told that paracetamol is also more effective against headaches whilst ibuprofen is better for muscle pain.
20:37:40 <Sgeo_> Ireland has a lot of brands for paracetamol
20:38:06 <elliott> I love eating biogesic kiddielets to make me feel better.
20:38:10 <elliott> Biogesic adults just aren't as tasty :(
20:38:32 <Bike> «Paracetamol hepatotoxicity is, by far, the most common cause of acute liver failure in both the United States and the United Kingdom» huh
20:39:00 <Bike> gonna be honest, I don't know what "acute" means in this context.
20:39:10 <elliott> Bike: well ugly liver failure is far worse
20:39:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Look OK the only decent-tasting paracetamol is that banana-flavoured stuff I had when I was a kid.
20:39:31 <Fiora> yeah, it's like "not chronic damage"
20:39:44 <Fiora> since alcohol is probably not going to destroy your liver in one go
20:39:49 <elliott> (let me tell you about how I can't swallow pills and therefore have to deal with the fact that all liquid medicine is the worst thing :( )
20:40:02 <Bike> you can't swallow pills?
20:40:04 <olsner> how can you be unable to swallow pills?
20:40:13 <elliott> I have no idea, I just literally can't
20:40:19 <elliott> it might well be psychological
20:40:37 <olsner> just stick the pills in food and chug it down?
20:40:39 <elliott> like I can have the pill in my mouth and everything but I just cannot make the actual movements required to get it down
20:40:44 <fizzie> Ibuprofen is our to-go pain medicine, by the way, just to add one more point of data. (But I know of people who go with paracetamol.)
20:41:00 <Bike> i keep dry swallowing my pills even though i suspect that exacerbates one of the side effects
20:41:04 <Fiora> I've found that drinking milk instead of water works relaly well
20:41:09 <elliott> olsner: doesn't work (which points to it being psychological I guess)
20:41:09 <Fiora> in that I often can't even tell the pill is there
20:41:17 <fizzie> Fiora: That's because your mouth-eye then can't see it.
20:41:27 <fizzie> (I may have not studied much of biology.)
20:41:29 <olsner> elliott: you can swollow food then?
20:41:32 <elliott> so THAT'S what the dangly thing is
20:41:46 <Bike> "no, i can't swallow food"
20:41:49 <Bike> is that what you expected
20:42:03 <fizzie> elliott: What about stones? (Isn't that how digestion works? As mentioned, still pretty hazy on this...)
20:42:07 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, what if it was some sort of schroedinger's pill arrangement
20:42:17 <Bike> my mouth is actually sewn shut, i have to get all my nutrition through IV tubing
20:42:28 <Fiora> the worst thing are those pills that don't have a proper casing and just tasty super nasty
20:42:28 <olsner> elliott: you should team up! you smell the food and then gregor can eat it
20:42:39 <Bike> Fiora: welcome to my world
20:42:41 <elliott> IV food tubes are... sure something
20:42:51 <kmc> one pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small
20:43:18 <elliott> there is portable IV food tube stuff and it is the most cumbersome looking thing in the universe
20:43:28 <Bike> "The diameter of a feeding tube is measured in French units (each French unit equals 0.33 millimeters)" what on earth
20:43:29 <fizzie> And the ones that mother gives you, they do nothing at all.
20:43:41 <fizzie> Or is that "don't do"?
20:43:43 <elliott> but guys the worst thing about pills
20:43:44 <fizzie> It's something like that.
20:43:45 <Bike> "A catheter of 1 French has a diameter of ⅓ mm" I... but...
20:43:49 <elliott> and suddenly you escape the matrix
20:43:52 <olsner> "don't do anything at all" iirc
20:43:52 <elliott> and you're plugged into this fucking thing
20:44:02 <Gregor> <olsner> elliott: you should team up! you smell the food and then gregor can eat it // worst superhero duo ever
20:44:03 <fizzie> olsner: That sounds more correct, yes.
20:44:06 <elliott> and then you have to go fight a bunch of dudes to save the world
20:44:22 <elliott> and your life gets turned into a 1999 scifi film
20:44:24 <Bike> what the fuck is the point of this!
20:44:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: do you hoover up food
20:45:28 <kmc> fizzie: i think it's "don't do anything at all"
20:45:30 <olsner> just remember that elrond is not priscilla, because priscilla is (iirc) the bus
20:45:50 <fizzie> kmc: olsner just SCOOPED you few lines up, but yes.
20:45:57 <kmc> i've been scooped
20:46:02 <kmc> scooped like poop
20:46:17 <fizzie> Is getting scooped up better than getting hoovered?
20:46:56 <olsner> depending somewhat on the carefulness of the scooping
20:54:42 <FreeFull_> What would a language that would be higher-level than, say, haskell, look like?
20:55:14 <Snowyowl> you write English sentences and it executes them
20:56:08 <Bike> "higher-level" meaning what
20:56:22 <shachaf> It's used by the US air force -- you can't get higher-level than that, right?
20:56:51 <Bike> nasa uses java. what now
20:57:13 <kmc> the software on voyager
20:57:17 <kmc> that should be the highest right?
20:57:20 * shachaf installed GNAT yesterday for some reason.
20:57:37 <shachaf> Does "high" mean "far from the earth"?
20:57:44 <Bike> and the software on voyager is some godforsaken nightmare assembly, from what i remember of the apollo computers
20:57:45 <kmc> programming in English would be terrible, have you tried giving precise instructions to a *person* in English?
20:57:47 <Bike> lesson learned: shit sucks
20:58:12 <kmc> domains that need precision (like law) develop their own unusual dialects of English that resemble programming languages a lot more
20:58:15 <olsner> for the other meaning of "high", I guess English could actually work
20:58:28 <shachaf> Sgeo_: You should make Ada the new Clojure.
20:58:38 <kmc> ^^^^^ this
20:59:16 <Bike> ada's typing is actually kinda neat
20:59:26 <Sgeo_> What's the thing that was apparently debugged and fixed on a REPL while in space?
20:59:50 <elliott> shachaf: cobol was the new clojure for a while
20:59:52 <elliott> that was an interesting time
20:59:54 <Bike> deep space explorer or something, and that's not really an accurate story, they used a sim
21:00:15 <elliott> i hope you realise fizzie was joking
21:00:20 <FreeFull_> And looks good, other than looking a bit imperative
21:00:51 <Bike> Sgeo_: yeah, you're thinking of DS1's Remote Agent.
21:02:04 <FreeFull_> lambdabot doesn't have System.Cmd imported, does it
21:02:50 <kmc> Sgeo_: one of the Mars rovers froze up due to a basic priority inversion deadlock and they had to fix it via the VxWorks serial console, with mars lag
21:03:14 <elliott> kind of crazy to think they, like, use vxworks
21:03:21 <kmc> "not as crazy as using linux"
21:03:23 <fizzie> There's also Linux in space.
21:03:45 <elliott> i admit i would not trust linux in space
21:03:52 <FreeFull_> For anything that has that amount of lag, you want to be able to do whatever you want locally first to see if it works
21:03:56 <olsner> human OS as in "just as unreliable as humans"?
21:03:58 <elliott> especially not if humans are involved
21:04:01 <elliott> not that there ever are these days
21:04:08 <elliott> olsner: no as in humans wrote it :P
21:04:18 <FreeFull_> elliott: What OS would you put in space?
21:04:21 <Bike> on the ISS they use lenovo thinkpads
21:04:25 <olsner> it's really quite silly and pointless to put humans in space
21:04:31 <Bike> probably with windows?
21:04:34 <kmc> elliott: mars rover 0wned due to accidentally included driver for printer from 1983
21:04:45 <Bike> that would be pretty sweet
21:04:55 <kmc> mars rover 0wned through video4linux1 firmware 32-bit compatibility layer
21:04:58 <elliott> 4chan hacks mars rover, it starts printing out obscenities through its printer
21:05:09 <kmc> mars rover draws giant goatse on surface of mars
21:05:11 <Bike> "shit why did we even put CUPS on this thing?"
21:05:12 <elliott> trail of paper dicks spread throughout mars
21:05:25 <Bike> "i dunno, fedora is hard okay"
21:05:29 <kmc> aliens arrive believing it to be a mating display
21:05:31 <fizzie> You reminded me of a thing.
21:05:37 <elliott> i like the idea of the mars rover having a printer sort of by accident
21:05:46 <elliott> "well the computer came with it when we bought it from Gateway"
21:05:46 <olsner> aliens mating with 4chan? awesome
21:06:18 <Bike> shachaf: end result: nasa ends up having a distribution choice flamewar with Beaky
21:06:32 <kmc> oh does beaky have opinions about linux distros?!?!?
21:06:33 <kmc> tell me more
21:06:39 <FreeFull_> Nasa puts Arch on the mars rover. The system then proceeds to break after an update and never work again
21:06:58 <Bike> see just like that. i am the linux whisperer.
21:07:02 <kmc> nasa puts Gentoo on mars rover, batteries run down while recompiling openoffice
21:07:29 <fizzie> http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/the_future_of_advertising/ this is what you went and reminded me of.
21:07:35 <FreeFull_> NASA puts its own linux distro on the rover. Stallman demands source code.
21:08:02 <elliott> fizzie: i like how the images inexplicably don't show
21:08:14 <olsner> mars missions are perfect for source-based distros though, gives you plenty of time to compile the base system before you get there
21:08:16 <Bike> holy shit talking cubes
21:08:20 <fizzie> It worked for me. But the site is the mess.
21:08:30 <FreeFull_> funny how the gnu ada compiler is called gnat
21:08:40 <kmc> fizzie: haha
21:08:49 <fizzie> elliott: I am using that.
21:08:51 <kmc> i think i will send http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_future_of_advertising/7.gif to a friend with no context
21:08:52 <Bike> i'm using "chromium" and it worked
21:09:04 <FreeFull_> Even sending the binaries over would take a lot of time though
21:09:10 <olsner> FreeFull_: it's also written in ada and requires gnat to build, iirc
21:09:30 <elliott> looking at the DOM in the html inspector
21:09:35 <elliott> it thinks it's just composed of <br>s in divs
21:09:37 <FreeFull_> olsner: All languages should be written in C
21:09:44 <kmc> maybe they have CSS background images
21:09:51 <elliott> <img id="panel-1" src="/data/strips/the_future_of_advertising/1.gif" >
21:10:13 <olsner> FreeFull_: the delivery system would string along a PC to cross-compile the OS for the rover on the way over?
21:10:22 <FreeFull_> That future of advertising page appears completely blank to me with firefox 18
21:10:39 <elliott> FreeFull_: Is there a "More" at the bottom
21:10:40 <Snowyowl> I'm seeing the word "more" at the bottom but that's it
21:10:50 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:10:54 <elliott> maybe the jquery is fucking it up
21:10:59 <elliott> Bike: fizzie: do you two have js disabled
21:11:01 <FreeFull_> Clicking it takes me to another page that is all black
21:11:02 <fizzie> kmc: I had http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif printed with a dot matrix printer on tractor feed paper as a wall decoration back when.
21:11:08 <fizzie> elliott: I do not have js disabled.
21:11:24 <kmc> do you have jesus disabled
21:11:32 <elliott> disabling js now shows images
21:11:35 <elliott> but they're all a "broken image" icon
21:11:37 <FreeFull_> I didn't know that could cause issues
21:11:40 <fizzie> The site: it's a mess.
21:12:02 <fizzie> It used to have some sort of malware javascript infestation at some point too. ("You're welcome" if it still has one on some pages.)
21:12:21 <elliott> how can such simple html be fucked up
21:12:46 <Snowyowl> why doesn't disabling javascript help?
21:13:07 <FreeFull_> elliott: Screwed up css and javascript?
21:13:17 <FreeFull_> Disabling javascript didn't fix anything for me, although it should have
21:13:40 <Snowyowl> seems like it should be screwed up css, but I can't find anything in there either
21:13:46 <Bike> okay this comic is like seven jpegs in sequence, how can it not be rendering, what the heck
21:14:09 <Sgeo_> Time to watch some DS9
21:14:15 <fizzie> kmc: It looked like https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130118-juliste1.jpg this.
21:14:28 <shachaf> did you read "The Man Who Sold the Moon"
21:14:39 <Sgeo_> And then I need to force myself to work on resume
21:15:38 <FreeFull_> I still don't see how it doesn't in firefox
21:15:45 <FreeFull_> The firefox web console doesn't give any errors
21:15:47 <fizzie> FreeFull_: It's: a mess.
21:16:17 <fizzie> Snowyowl: It's some kind of a heisensite.
21:16:22 <Snowyowl> ... it vanished while I was tabbed out
21:17:35 <Bike> http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_future_of_advertising/16.gif k
21:26:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:26:37 <olsner> we used to have our introduction to imperative programming in ada
21:29:26 <Sgeo_> Instead of resumeing I am watching videos of Brogue
21:30:16 <Bike> here, read: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/903
21:37:06 <Sgeo_> "Thanks. I am not trying to be an asshole, but the way I see it is if a company doesn't bother responding to me when it is a private matter, they don't deserve the opportunity to try and respond to me because it became a public matter."
21:37:09 <Sgeo_> --a reddit comment
21:37:30 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:38:57 <kmc> shachaf: I started learning about how OCB works internally!
21:39:20 <kmc> there are a few thing that look strange to me
21:39:25 <kmc> but i only know enough crypto to be dangerous
21:39:27 <kmc> they are probably fine
21:40:02 <kmc> a block cipher mode, ocb
21:40:07 <kmc> http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/ocb/ocb-faq.htm
21:40:39 <kmc> shachaf: well for example, the integrity tag is computed (essentially) by simply xoring all the plaintext blocks and then encrypting that
21:40:55 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull.
21:41:11 -!- Snowyowl has quit (Quit: Snowyowl).
21:41:55 <FreeFull> kmc: That does sound rather weird
21:41:59 <shachaf> So if you add an all-zero block you get the same tag?
21:42:22 <kmc> no, because the number of blocks will change
21:42:43 <kmc> but what if you transpose two blocks?
21:42:47 <shachaf> OK, if you swap two blocks you get the same tag?
21:43:05 <kmc> i don't know, i should try it
21:45:22 <kmc> but if you swap two blocks in the ciphertext, the tag will be wrong because the two plaintexts will come out completely wrong
21:46:21 <kmc> oh and an attacker can't use this to discover if one message is a transposition of another
21:46:25 <kmc> because the nonce will be different
21:46:47 <kmc> still vaguely sketchy
21:47:04 <shachaf> Oops, I completely forgot about http://crypto.stanford.edu/RealWorldCrypto/program.php :-(
21:47:20 <shachaf> Apparently it was last week.
21:49:06 <shachaf> I think at the time I heard about it I thought I wouldn't be in CA that week.
21:51:35 -!- jdiez has left.
21:58:27 -!- derkus has changed nick to dessos.
21:58:40 <kmc> apparently shitake mushroom mycelium can be encouraged to fruit by beating the crap out of it with sticks
21:58:50 <kmc> this was discovered when some monk got pissed off that his mushrooms weren't growing
22:00:27 <Phantom__Hoover> i thought monks were meant to be serene and at one with the universe
22:00:46 <kmc> and priests are supposed to be celibate
22:02:09 -!- monqy has joined.
22:04:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:04:46 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:04:46 -!- FreeFull has quit (Client Quit).
22:11:40 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:12:52 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:14:29 -!- heroux has joined.
22:17:23 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
22:19:05 <Sgeo_> o.O DCSS keeps advancing
22:24:54 <Sgeo_> Unless it's NetHack past 3.4.3
22:26:18 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:26:36 <FreeFull> If I have a binding in ghci, how do I get rid of it?
22:27:05 <FreeFull> I accidentally declared overlapping instances and had to restart ghci to get rid of them
22:29:04 <Sgeo_> That's it. Fuck Kopete.
22:29:17 <kmc> FreeFull: try #haskell
22:29:37 <FreeFull> I then read that :r will get rid of all bindings (which wouldn't have been useful)
22:43:52 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
22:44:21 -!- ogrom has joined.
22:44:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/list: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/list: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:45:00 <Sgeo_> `run chmod a+x bin/list
22:45:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/list: line 1: Taneb: command not found
22:45:24 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot shachaf
22:46:13 <Bike> so just put in "echo"
22:47:55 <Sgeo_> Something to do with sed?
22:48:39 <Sgeo_> `run sed -i s/Taneb/echo Taneb/ bin/list
22:48:41 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 12: unterminated `s' command
22:48:43 <kmc> #!/bin/cat
22:48:46 <Sgeo_> `run sed -i s/Taneb/echo/ Taneb/ bin/list
22:48:49 <HackEgo> sed: can't read Taneb/: No such file or directory
22:48:57 <shachaf> Sgeo_ why am i on the regular list
22:49:00 <Bike> kmc: haha, does that actually work?
22:49:00 <Sgeo_> `run sed -i "s/Taneb/echo/ Taneb/" bin/list
22:49:01 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 15: unknown option to `s'
22:49:06 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I haveno idea
22:49:22 <Bike> `run sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list
22:49:37 <Sgeo_> `run sed -i "s/Taneb/echo Taneb/" bin/list
22:49:44 <kmc> Bike: sure, easiest language to write a quine in
22:49:45 <HackEgo> echo atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
22:49:54 <Bike> kmc: cool beans
22:49:58 <Sgeo_> Why is Taneb not on there
22:50:23 <Bike> what we need is irc-based vi.
22:50:31 <Sgeo_> I tried to /nick echo but echo is online
22:50:44 <Sgeo_> Whoever echo is, e's on the list
22:50:59 <shachaf> `run touch quines/python quines/perl
22:50:59 <kmc> editors like ed made more sense when I realized they were originally used off-line
22:51:09 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:51:12 <FreeFull> "a square is a quadrilateral in the category of rectangles"
22:51:27 <Bike> Sgeo_: imagine using it over irc
22:51:42 * Sgeo_ doesn't really know what ed was like
22:52:01 <Bike> "was", he says
22:52:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
22:52:28 <Bike> "When first invoked, ed is in command mode. In this mode commands are read from the standard input and executed to manipulate the contents of the editor buffer."
22:52:29 <kmc> like you would get a printout of compiler errors and prepare by hand an editor script to fix them
22:52:31 <Fiora> I think hussie is going to have it a running gag that fefeta never talks on-screen
22:52:40 <Sgeo_> `run sed -i "s/echo/echo\ Taneb/" bin/list
22:52:40 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
22:52:48 <HackEgo> echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
22:52:49 <kmc> that way you aren't using insanely expensive computer time to fix your dumb mistakes
22:53:05 <Bike> thank god we have Eclipse now
22:54:15 <FreeFull> Java is the replacement for COBOL
22:54:32 <kmc> Java is a COBOL in the category of FreeFull
22:54:52 <Bike> I can never decide what's more annoying, people hating on Java for bad reasons, or ava.
22:55:11 <FreeFull> Bike: Java is insanely better than COBOL
22:55:28 <Bike> Have you ever used COBOL?
22:55:54 <FreeFull> Would you say Java is worse than COBOL then?
22:56:08 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:56:16 <Bike> No, just that putting things on a scalar scale of "good", and judging things based on hearsay, is kinda silly.
22:56:53 <FreeFull> Bike: Tell me what the main application of COBOL was, and then what the main application of Java is
22:57:51 <Bike> Programs for large businesses?
22:57:58 <kmc> Bike: surely you're not suggesting i should know something about a programming language before i hate on it
22:58:17 <kmc> "programs for large businesses" is impossibly vague
22:59:34 <FreeFull> kmc: But once I know a language I can't hate it unless it actually is horrible
23:00:34 <kmc> i don't like this thing where all software is either awesome magic pony rainbows, or unusable garbage
23:00:40 <kmc> in fact most software is solidly okay
23:00:51 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
23:01:06 <FreeFull> Most software is buggy if you look close enough, but people learn to walk around the bugs
23:01:17 <FreeFull> But it's ok because humans are buggy too
23:01:31 <Bike> How are humans buggy?
23:01:51 <Bike> kmc: also as a diehard snobol4 programmer that is exacty what i'm saying!!!
23:02:23 <FreeFull> Bike: Have you ever seen an optical illusion? Or irrational decisions?
23:02:37 <Bike> are those bugs?
23:02:46 <Bike> also i will be very impressed if you have a good definition of "rational" for this
23:02:53 <FreeFull> Well optical illusions can be considered features
23:02:54 <elliott> kmc: no all software is in fact unusable rubbish
23:03:02 <FreeFull> But irrational decisions can lead to all sorts of problems
23:03:43 <FreeFull> Bike: Ones that benefit the person more than the other choice, and where the person has all the information needed to make the choice and the capability to process it adequately
23:03:44 <Phantom__Hoover> FreeFull, how can you have a bug in something that wasn't even designed with a purpose
23:04:51 <elliott> shachaf: not really software
23:05:07 <Sgeo_> FreeFull, "benefit" might not be the best approach. "Works towards the goal that the person has in mind" might be better
23:05:31 <Bike> FreeFull: example of this?S
23:05:34 <Sgeo_> If someone wants to benefit someone else at their own expense, it's not irrational to choose the thing that will most accomplish that goal
23:05:50 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: Assuming the person has a goal above "don't get hurt, stay alive, be comfortable"
23:06:02 <Bike> also yeah, "benefit the person" isn't exactly in the human design doc.
23:06:37 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: What if the benefit is feeling better
23:06:51 <elliott> this discussion is stupid btw
23:07:02 <elliott> it will rapidly approach maximum stupidity if allowed to continue
23:07:03 <Bike> oh yeah well you're stupid
23:07:12 <elliott> well nobody even knows what they're arguing about
23:07:31 <elliott> I don't see any evidence that anyone even agrees over what the disagreement is
23:08:37 <Bike> mostly i think "humans are irrational" is something thrown around by people who've seen some intro game theory and don't work on psychology or sociology much, and it bugs me a bit, which is why i'm writing this silly message instead of, what else was i doing, reading probably
23:08:55 <Sgeo_> FreeFull, you could construct a scenario where someone's goal may not involve any benefit including feeling better. There's an example I read: You're a mother, aliens come, they state that either your child will be tortured but you will be made to believe they have a happy life, or your child will have a happy life and you will be made to be tortured
23:09:13 <Bike> ok wow forget it yeah
23:09:16 <Sgeo_> Any personal "benefit" of choosing the second over the first is purely temporary
23:09:26 <Sgeo_> Erm, "you will be made to believe that they are being tortured"
23:09:33 <Sgeo_> Not "you will be made to be tortured"
23:10:25 <elliott> Bike: remember when you said I was stupid instead of nodding your head at my wisdom
23:10:57 <shachaf> By the way the funny thing is that I run an OotS RSS feed.
23:11:02 <Sgeo_> eep am I being called the center of the stupidity of this discussion?
23:11:08 <Sgeo_> shachaf, OOTS has an RSS feed
23:11:21 <shachaf> Not one that shows the pictures, though.
23:11:25 <shachaf> You have to click on the link.
23:11:35 <shachaf> I also run an SMBC RSS feed that shows the votey.
23:11:39 <shachaf> (I don't use either of them.)
23:18:22 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should just do what kmc did and write resume via LaTeX
23:18:26 <Sgeo_> Likely to be less broken
23:18:39 <Sgeo_> But I'd need to learn how to LaTeX
23:19:13 <Bike> You're applying for grad school, right? You'd need to learn that anyway.
23:20:01 <copumpkin> so it looks like Aaron Swartz was a big fan of Ray Dalio's
23:20:18 <elliott> whoa, copumpkin talking in #esoteric
23:20:27 <Bike> who's Ray Dalio?
23:20:38 <kmc> Sgeo_: you can just copy that template (or one of a few others) and make content changes
23:20:42 <Sgeo_> Bike, I think I'm not going to work on grad school
23:20:47 <kmc> you don't really need to understand LaTeX deeply
23:20:47 <Sgeo_> kmc, I lost the link
23:20:57 <kmc> i used http://www.mcnabbs.org/andrew/linux/latexres/
23:21:04 <kmc> but if you google "latex resume" you will find a few others
23:21:06 <kmc> pick one that you like :)
23:22:14 <copumpkin> this whole series seems kinda inspired by him: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rawnerve
23:22:23 <copumpkin> and several of the articles cite him directly
23:23:12 <elliott> kmc: resume describing your experience manufacturing latex
23:23:41 <elliott> kmc: the twist is, it's printed on latex!
23:23:44 <kmc> at Vandelay Industries?
23:24:26 -!- dessos has left.
23:26:47 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:27:12 -!- FreeFull has joined.
23:27:28 <Sgeo_> Ok, I think I can get the hang of this
23:27:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:31:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:31:45 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
23:31:50 -!- FreeFull_ has left.
23:33:00 <HackEgo> copumpkin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:34:25 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:37:00 <Sgeo_> kmc, ooh, there's a line for proficient and a line for familiar
23:37:13 <Sgeo_> Does this mean I get to list every language I've ever tried as something I'm "familiar" with?
23:37:56 <elliott> no the police will arrest you
23:38:24 <Bike> oh god yes do that
23:38:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:42:47 <Sgeo_> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=freespire
23:42:52 <Sgeo_> "Last Update: Tuesday 14 August 2012 04:36 GMT"
23:43:10 <Sgeo_> ....why does it still need to be updated. Has it changed from being dead to still being dead?
23:43:46 -!- monqy has joined.
23:43:51 <kmc> http://fiberandfumes.tumblr.com/post/38178202379/text-mode-this-letter-was-sent-to-a-russian
23:45:58 <Sgeo_> Proficient: Python, C#, LSL; Familiar: Javascript, Haskell, Clojure, Ruby, Java, Tcl, Smalltalk
23:46:04 <Sgeo_> I'm sure there's more to go in the familiar column
23:46:12 <Sgeo_> Factor seems a bit silly to add
23:47:47 <Sgeo_> Factor, Racket (formerly PLT Scheme
23:48:04 <Bike> The Artist Formerly Known As Lisp
23:48:37 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I really count as proficient with C# :/
23:48:49 <Bike> it's a resume, the entire point is arrogance
23:51:17 <shachaf> Hmm, I should probably do the résumé thing.
23:51:36 <olsner> shachaf: don't do it! they'll give you a job!
23:51:57 <copumpkin> there's a big trade-off with resumes
23:52:16 <copumpkin> whether to write résumé, and risk people thinking you're pretentious, or to write resume and risk people thinking you're uneducated
23:52:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: What do I write if I want people to think I'm crazy?
23:53:30 <shachaf> I don't like "resume" because I always read it as "resume" instead of "resume".
23:53:36 <quintopia> shachaf: anything promoting extreme instrumental rationality
23:53:42 <olsner> I call it CV, no latin, no funny letters, nothing
23:53:55 <copumpkin> olsner: they have slightly different connotations, in the US at least
23:54:35 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
23:55:10 <olsner> hmm, what's the difference?
23:55:24 <Bike> CVs are usually academic?
23:55:41 <copumpkin> will often have a list of all papers, talks, P.C. memberships, etc.
23:57:16 <Sgeo_> I'm sure I forgot some languages that I could list
23:57:23 <Sgeo_> Not going to list Scala, I barely remember a thing
23:58:07 <monqy> 15:46:12 <Sgeo_> Factor seems a bit silly to add
23:58:29 <shachaf> LTL is "pretty cool i hear"
23:58:37 <monqy> yes but instead of being linear temporal logic it's linden scripting language
23:58:38 <Sgeo_> LSL could, in theory, land me a job. I think
23:58:44 <olsner> coppro: sounds like it's a US vs british thing even, where the british "CV" seems to be what I'd call CV/résumé
23:58:47 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
23:59:15 <Sgeo_> I guess I'm kind of familiar with PHP
23:59:28 <monqy> u know u want the php jobs
23:59:53 <shachaf> monqy: SORRY I WENT FOR A LONG TIME WITHOUT IT