00:07:55 <Sgeo> How worried should I be that it's easy to crash Smalltalk VMs from within themselves?
00:09:21 <Jafet> Write a strongly worded letter
00:09:33 <Jafet> Also, that sounds better than SCADA
00:09:49 <Sgeo> I actually crashed Pharo by accident
00:10:05 <Sgeo> The fact that it could be done by accident is far more alarming than being able to crash it on purpose
00:10:17 <Sgeo> Although I guess what I did was dumb
00:10:33 <Sgeo> I gave the debugger thing the go-ahead to add a new instance variable to Dictionary
00:12:28 <copumpkin> kmc: what was that north korean link you gave yesterday?
00:12:46 <elliott> copumpkin: https://sites.google.com/site/sophieinnorthkorea/
00:12:48 <copumpkin> I can't find it in my history now for some reason
00:12:53 <elliott> (i'm not actually kmc btw)
00:35:18 <Sgeo> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scraps2/sbahj_pressrelease.jpg
00:35:19 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
00:38:24 <Sgeo> elliott, ^ I'm sure you consider this to be the best thing ever
00:39:01 <monqy> i can confirm that elliott considers this.
00:42:50 <Sgeo> Is that the Opera symbol?
00:43:37 <Sgeo> In the font my IRC client uses, it's like an O with the right and left thick, Opera-like
00:43:52 <Fiora> <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sunday_Afternoon_on_the_Island_of_La_Grande_Jatte http://www.topatoco.com/graphics/00000001/mspa-sbahj-hardcover-pic4.jpg
00:43:55 <Fiora> <Fiora> .... is this actulaly a parody of that?
00:43:57 <Fiora> <buttercupistiny> yep
00:44:00 <Fiora> <ponicalica> I wonder if there's some grand sweeping point that can be made about looking at pointilist artwork through a computer that uses pixels
00:44:46 <Bike> Wait, why is the second one not pointilist.
00:45:51 <Fiora> I don't know, it's sbahj, come up with any one of 5000 excuses?
00:46:09 <Bike> why five thousand
00:46:33 <Bike> these things have significance.
00:46:42 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aE1JOPS1Uko#!
00:47:02 <Bike> You may as well tell Origen that 666 is random and big!!!
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01:37:14 <Sgeo> "One of the great leaps in OO is to be able to answer the question "How does this work?" with "I don't care""
01:37:32 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe if you're leaping to OO from Assembly...
01:37:52 <olsner> sounds more like abstraction than anything related to OO
01:37:59 <Sgeo> Also, not ... caring is icky. Not needing to know in order to do some task is really the principle
01:38:02 <Bike> are you seriously reading pro-OO things? that's, like, so 90s, man.
01:38:21 <shachaf> Bike: Shh, this is Sgeo's channel.
01:38:23 <Sgeo> olsner, yes, 100% agree
01:38:48 <Sgeo> Bike, I don't think it's meant as advocacy
01:38:54 <Sgeo> It's in Pharo by Example
01:39:18 <Sgeo> And says about how newcomers to Smalltalk seem to want to know how every little detail works before doing something like Transcript show: 'Hello world'
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01:39:51 <olsner> like in Haskell where people only want to know what monads are
01:41:36 <olsner> i.e. maybe that's just the smalltalk burrito
01:42:05 <olsner> and of course, something something something lenses
01:43:02 <ais523> Sgeo: that's because in Smalltalk, something like I/O doesn't fit into the language's view of things very well at all
01:43:13 <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe
01:44:24 <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O
01:44:42 <ais523> where does the GUI come from?
01:44:57 <ais523> it's written in Smalltalk, clearly
01:45:03 <ais523> and how does the GUI do its I/O?
01:45:12 <ais523> if you think about the issue for too long, you end up inventing Feather
01:45:20 <Sgeo> Ultimately it comes down to VM primitives I guess
01:45:39 <ais523> this is the sort of thing that confuses and upsets an ais523
01:45:43 <ais523> it doesn't really fit with the rest of the language
01:45:46 <Bike> couldn't you just have a "system" object that you can send messages to
01:46:05 <Bike> since the point is you don't have to care about the actual implementation of any object, yeah?
01:46:29 <ais523> Bike: but it has to come from somewhere, and if you have a decent debugger, you can find out
01:46:36 <Sgeo> Classes in Smalltalk aren't actually black boxes.
01:46:39 <ais523> and Smalltalk cares about its decent debuggers and everything
01:46:46 <kmc> yeah proponents of OOP like to take credit for the idea of abstract data types or abstraction in general
01:46:49 <ais523> Smalltalk's as least as monkeypatchable as Ruby
01:46:50 <Sgeo> Well, I guess you could make a fake class that fakes out the browser
01:47:05 <ais523> Sgeo: or just do "true become: false" or something silly like that
01:47:12 <ais523> (at least Squeak freezes if you do that)
01:47:15 <Bike> well i haven't used smalltalk, but i thought the big idea was basically encapsulation, from Kay's talks
01:47:27 <Sgeo> Making a fake class shouldn't freeze anything, though?
01:47:37 <ais523> Sgeo: that wasn't my point
01:47:49 <ais523> you can just preëmptively assume that the actual point was incoherent
01:48:02 <ais523> because we're talking about me and Smalltalk
01:48:12 <Bike> ais is this a dialetheism thing
01:48:20 <Bike> are you a truther
01:48:21 <tswett> Hm. A programming language called Default.
01:48:34 <Sgeo> Bike, yes, but classes have messages that when you send them, reveal stuff like the instance variables they define and the methods they define
01:48:38 <ais523> Bike: no, it's because annoyance at Smalltalk is what caused me to end up inventing Feather
01:48:39 <tswett> Every language component has some default behavior, but you can cause interesting stuff to happen by overriding this default behavior.
01:48:52 <elliott> Bike: wow this is like the second time in my life I've sen the word dialetheism
01:48:56 <ais523> you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that
01:49:14 <Bike> Sgeo: couldn't you have "system" say it has no instance variables and then tell the truth about methods...
01:49:18 <Bike> elliott: it's a good word imo
01:49:30 <Sgeo> Bike, what are you suggesting is the truth?
01:49:54 <Bike> Sgeo: that it has methods for interacting with the underlying system (if there is one), like print to terminal or xlib or whatever
01:50:06 <Sgeo> In Squeak/Pharo at least a method can say it's implemented by a VM primitive by containing <text in angle brackets>
01:50:08 <ais523> I guess to make it an esolang, the only sensible esolangisation is "the only way to accomplish anything is by redefining the default behaviour of everything"
01:50:18 <ais523> but that still doesn't lead to an obvious language
01:50:29 <Bike> Sgeo: the end of the metacircular braid, as it were
01:50:30 <ais523> and is ill-defined and potentially far-reaching enough that probably only cpressey could create it
01:50:33 <ais523> and he's probably busy
01:50:45 * Sgeo wants to hear more about Smalltalk and how Feather fixes it
01:50:55 <ais523> Sgeo: that'd mean talking about Feather
01:51:03 <Bike> what do smalltalk methods even respond to?
01:51:20 <Bike> you said "a method can say"
01:51:29 <Sgeo> Erm, bad phrasing on my part
01:51:30 <Bike> so i'm wondering what information there is about methods, if any
01:51:34 <ais523> Bike: their caller, I think
01:51:47 <ais523> they have a call stack, just like functions in other languages
01:51:47 <Sgeo> As in, the source of a method would cotain <foo>
01:51:49 <Bike> really i thought objects just took arbitrary messages, there don't even have to be "methods"?
01:51:52 <Bike> so you can Ruby all this shit
01:52:06 <ais523> Sgeo: anyway, the problem with Smalltalk is that you have to have a heavyweight OS-like thing to get anywhere with it
01:52:24 <ais523> because of all the everything defined in terms of everything else and needing a really expansive environment to do things
01:52:41 <ais523> like having class objects for regular objects, and ability to method browse, and so on
01:52:51 <ais523> and the result of /that/, is that Smalltalk programs aren't portable
01:53:09 <Sgeo> Portable from heavyweight Smalltalk OS to heavyweight Smalltalk OS?
01:53:17 <Sgeo> That's how they're not portable, I mean
01:53:28 <Bike> i can't say i understood why every class object had its own metaclass object
01:53:41 <ais523> basically, the common way to distribute a Smalltalk program is just to bundle the entire VM image
01:53:48 <ais523> because you can't do it any other way
01:55:33 <ais523> now, to solve this problem, you need to do two things: a) allow the language to be entirely written in itself, going back forever (solves the portability problem), and b) allow the VM state to be recreated from scratch by running a sequence of instructions (basically, libraries, followed by the program)
01:56:01 <Bike> oh this is a good time to ask that thing i asked before. are there any systems for code interoperability that work well (or at least tolerably) besides ELF with SOs and p.e. DLLs?
01:56:15 <ais523> I don't think a) is solvable, while remaining computable, but you can fake it using retroactive changes
01:56:29 <ais523> the main reason behind retroactive changes, though, was to get around the need to have separate classes and objects
01:56:40 <ais523> in Smalltalk, you can alter a class in order to change all objects spawned from it
01:57:06 <Sgeo> Self has no distinct classes, so...?
01:57:17 <ais523> in Feather, you create objects by cloning+modification, and if you retroactively change the parent object, that changes all its decendants, so it comes to the same thing
01:57:27 <Fiora> Bike: Java and class files?
01:57:45 <Fiora> or I guess I should say, JVM and class files
01:57:46 <Bike> oh, maybe. i don't know much about that
01:57:52 <Fiora> since you can compile almost anything to JVM bytecode
01:57:54 <Bike> i'm sort of wondering if there's any theory or anything
01:58:14 <ais523> you know, I should put this monologue on the wiki
01:58:24 <ais523> it's a good way to explain that a) Feather is real, and b) give a glimpse of the consequences
01:58:41 <Bike> since i usually code in CL and it's largely the same situation as ais was complaining about (besides distributing source)
01:58:58 <Fiora> I'm guessing .NET CLR is similar
01:59:08 <Bike> ais523: why do you have a "thing" about talking about feather anyway, it seems a lot more interesting than "lol, time travel"
01:59:21 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Someone in another channel is talking about fixing Smalltalk with time travel.
01:59:22 <Sgeo> <saijanai_> in fact, VPRI is already working on that google: VPRI worlds
01:59:23 <ais523> my problem's that it drives me mad
01:59:25 <Fiora> @wikipedia Common Language Infrastructure
01:59:30 <Fiora> oh, there isn't a wiki one :<
01:59:32 <Bike> i know what CLI is
01:59:34 <ais523> like, it feels like it /should/ work
01:59:40 <ais523> just I can't make it do so
01:59:48 <Bike> ais523: isn't that common for ideas
02:00:41 <ais523> Bike: not really, I haven't come across anything quite this bad
02:00:49 <ais523> my record for things like that is around 2-3 weeks, and that was part of my job
02:00:52 <ais523> Feather, it was months at least
02:01:10 <Bike> Fiora: i guess i was wondering about questions like, how do you distribute a module as an object when you have to worry about garbage collection? can you just link something libc-ish? stuff like that
02:01:30 <Fiora> isn't that the runtime's job?
02:01:45 <Bike> well what is "the runtime"
02:02:18 <Fiora> C doesn't really have one?
02:02:19 <Fiora> but like, java does
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02:02:45 <Bike> that's the sort of question i'm wondering about i guess
02:02:52 <Bike> and i'm not sure you can say "C has one" or "Java has one" even
02:02:59 <Bike> the runtime system is more like the OS as a whole in C's case
02:03:04 <shachaf> Whether C "has a runtime" depends on what you compile it to.
02:03:51 <Bike> and you could say the same for java-the-language, probably
02:03:59 <ais523> "'C' is a recursive acronym. It stands for 'C'."
02:04:02 <ais523> Bike: yeah, gcj exists
02:04:10 <ais523> admittedly, it mostly exists to be a counterexample
02:04:11 <Bike> that's java to native?
02:04:21 <shachaf> That doesn't mean it doesn't have a runtime.
02:04:51 <Bike> I don't know much about GHC, I know it compiles to .o's though?
02:04:51 <ais523> err, yes gcj is java to native
02:05:13 <ais523> normally I disambiguate with the nickping, but it doesn't work in this context
02:05:28 <Bike> i understood anyway
02:05:49 <shachaf> Bike: GHC typically compiles Haskell to x86 machine code in .o files, yes.
02:05:58 <Bike> So what's the runtime?
02:06:05 <shachaf> These are then linked to the GHC RTS, which is a 50,000 line C and C-- library.
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02:06:13 <shachaf> It does garbage collection and such.
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02:06:18 <shachaf> (There's a lot of "such".)
02:06:27 <Bike> mm, so like libc so then libhaskell, i suppose
02:06:38 * ais523 wonders about the existence of job posts requiring "C/C-- experience"
02:06:58 <Bike> Please, elaborate on "sort of", don't let me continue in delusion
02:07:16 <shachaf> I think maybe these are meaningless discussions now.
02:07:29 <shachaf> No GHC-generated code will function without the runtime.
02:07:57 <ais523> whereas C code can function without libc
02:08:02 <ais523> it's more like libgcc, I guess
02:08:22 <ais523> (just a lot larger than either of those, which are intentionally small for obvious reasons)
02:08:56 <shachaf> I would probably say that GCC C has an RTS too, though it does less than GHC's RTS.
02:09:03 <ais523> (libgcc is used to implement language features that the target doesn't have, such as multiplication on platforms where multiplication doesn't exist; crt0 is used to set up the runtime)
02:09:03 <shachaf> But I think it's a bit of a meaningless discussion.
02:09:20 <ais523> normally, when you do printf or the like, you're calling out to libc
02:09:20 <kmc> yes, a primitive-looking thing like + in GCC can compile to a function call into crt0.a
02:09:24 <ais523> but in theory, you could write your own
02:09:29 <kmc> oh yes ais523 just said that
02:09:42 <ais523> kmc: libgcc's been split from crt0 at least since I worked on gcc-bf
02:09:53 <kmc> "runtime library" is different from "virtual machine" although it might be hard to draw a perfectly sharp line as well
02:09:55 <shachaf> kmc: How did your libc-free network server go?
02:09:58 <kmc> shachaf: it works
02:10:06 <Bike> hah, osdev as a twenty-line crt0 implementation
02:10:10 <shachaf> I seem to remember it had some big secret associated with it or something.
02:10:22 <ais523> things I discovered doing that: libgcc does not like being called recursively in order to emulate a 64-bit multiply in terms of 32-bit multiplies in terms of 16-bit multiplies in terms of 8-bit multiplies
02:10:49 <ais523> other things I discovered doing that: yes, you /can/ run a Perl script halfway through compiling gcc in order to alter its generated Makefiles
02:11:16 <kmc> the state of a GHC-compiled program can be understood as a state of a virtual machine (STG machine) but the code running is ahead-of-time native-compiled code
02:11:35 <kmc> some of the operations on that virtual machine are implemented as inline compiled code, others are calls into the runtime library
02:12:09 <shachaf> Do you know what "spineless" means, by the way?
02:12:11 <shachaf> Maybe I asked that before.
02:12:13 <kmc> shachaf: not precisely
02:12:14 <ais523> gcc-bf's build system is amazing, in the elliott sense of amazing
02:12:34 <kmc> C++ is a better example of a typically native-compiled language with typically a big runtime library
02:12:54 <coppro> http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3514.pdf hasthe best title
02:12:57 <shachaf> Objective C is kind of bizarre.
02:13:07 <kmc> remember that 'new' is a keyword in C++; whatever allocator that invokes has a more special status than the ordinary library function malloc()
02:13:24 <kmc> maybe that's a bad example because ::operator new is an ordinary function, albeit a strangly named one
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02:14:02 <ais523> btw, is it theoretically possible to implement malloc in terms of new?
02:14:18 <ais523> my guess is that it'll come down to a technicality either way
02:14:36 <saijanai_> hey all someone was talking about implementing time travel in smalltalk?
02:14:41 <Sgeo> saijanai_, there are logs, that would probably be better than asking ais523 to repeat his monologue
02:14:50 <Bike> oh. that's why.
02:14:53 <Sgeo> And it's not an implementation in Smalltalk, it would be a different language.
02:15:26 <ais523> saijanai_: it's probably for the best to avoid the subject
02:15:43 <ais523> I was working on something that vaguely resembled that but not really a while ago
02:15:49 <ais523> and have since mostly abandoned it
02:16:18 <ais523> but I added an explanation to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather in order to have something to link people to
02:16:23 <saijanai_> ah, ais523 have you ever heard of VPRI and worlds?
02:16:42 <saijanai_> http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011001_final_worlds.pdf
02:17:09 <ais523> it probably wouldn't be particularly appropriate to what I'm doing
02:17:35 <saijanai_> it was first created to allow Ometa to do some really powerful lookahead parsing, and then reconcevied a universal kind of undo with extras
02:17:53 <ais523> that doesn't seem quite as far-reaching as what I was doing
02:17:56 <ais523> also, it seems a lot saner
02:18:20 <saijanai_> A programming language that supports worlds must provide some way for program- mers to:
02:18:21 <saijanai_> – refer to the current world, – sprout a new world from an existing world, – commit a world’s changes to its parent world, and – execute code in a particular world.
02:18:37 <ais523> yeah, it actually seems like more or less the opposite of what I'm doing
02:18:47 <ais523> the hard problem is to be able to make a change to the parent and cause that to change what happened in the children
02:19:09 <ais523> which is a problem that's already been solved (continuations), so it wouldn't seem like this would be so difficult
02:19:20 <saijanai_> well, that's inherent in the committing changes to the parent
02:19:52 <saijanai_> if you don't want children to change, you'd need to clone the parent and change that instead, if I understand things
02:20:38 <ais523> I don't think you really understand the problem; but that's good, because not only does /nobody/ really understand the problem, it's also not a particularly fruitful one to work on
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02:20:55 <Bike> welcome to #esoteric?
02:21:03 <Sgeo> `welcome saijanai_
02:21:05 <HackEgo> saijanai_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:21:33 <shachaf> the international hub for clojure and esoteric programming language design and deployment!
02:22:06 <monqy> clojure/factor/racket/smalltalk(?????????????????????)
02:22:08 <Bike> you know, we actually are talking about an esolang partly inspired by deployment issues
02:23:21 <saijanai_> ais523 there's actually a multii-player virtual reality game that implements time travel. I can look up the name if youi want
02:23:42 <Bike> i don't think time travel is really the core issue
02:24:01 <Sgeo> My fault for saying the words time travel
02:24:46 * Sgeo is curious about that game... unless it's that RTS one that changes come in waves or something
02:25:13 <Bike> you don't like achron, sgeo?
02:25:37 <Sgeo> It costs money. And also it's not the model of time travel that _really_ holds my interest
02:26:03 <Sgeo> (immutable single timeline)
02:26:23 <saijanai_> sgeo are you familiar with croquet/openqwak or cobalt
02:26:34 <Bike> aren't those super dead?
02:26:45 <Sgeo> saijanai_, I've had some interest, but haven't really played around
02:27:14 <Sgeo> Does OpenQwak or OpenCobalt have some sort of entry world to hang out with others?
02:27:19 <Sgeo> That would be nice
02:27:21 <saijanai_> but there's stuff you can do with teatime you still can't do with any other system?
02:27:22 <Bike> http://www.opencroquet.org/ yeeeeeaaaaaah
02:27:38 <Sgeo> And a sandbox where multiple people can build stuff and script stuff together
02:27:52 <ais523> saijanai_: I'm aware of Achron
02:27:58 <Sgeo> Bike, I think OpenCroquet is the foundation on which OpenCobalt is built
02:28:06 <saijanai_> David Reed's first stab at distributed p2p serving
02:28:06 <ais523> its time travel model is quite different from Feather's, and somewhat arbitrary in order to make the gameplay work
02:28:25 <Bike> aren't there a few papers on achron?
02:28:44 <Bike> i read at some point a bit about how the main guy wanted to use the time travel stuff for reversible computing and well anything more practical than an RTS
02:29:02 <saijanai_> Bike, that is where worlds would come in
02:29:37 <saijanai_> worlds + teatime would be very interesting
02:30:03 <coppro> also the list on page 7 is awesome
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02:31:04 <elliott> qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
02:31:32 <coppro> http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3514.pdf
02:35:16 <ion> qqqqqqq: qqqqq qq?
02:41:02 <ion> ?- exists(shachaf).
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03:12:37 <Sgeo> Is Morphic supposed to be "easy"?
03:14:13 <Bike> Sgeo: are you trying to knock shachaf off the wagon?
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03:32:44 * Sgeo gets a little spooked out by the method finder thingy
03:34:33 <Sgeo> Typing 'eureka' . 'EUREKA' into it finds methods that do that
03:34:43 <Sgeo> It found asUppercase
03:35:52 <shachaf> What if you search for 1+0 records in 1+0 records out 512 bytes (512 B) copied, 3.1335e-05 s, 16.3 MB/s
03:36:22 <Sgeo> Hmm, I don't know if it only works when the first argument is the receiver of the method or not
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03:36:46 <Sgeo> But even then, how could it know to avoid certain side-effecting methods?
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03:37:57 <Sgeo> Oh, there's a list of allowed methods
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05:24:21 <ais523> monqy: was that a hi of response, or a hi of disapproval?
05:24:23 <ais523> either works in context
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05:32:02 <Sgeo> Possibly also none of the above.
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06:10:17 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
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08:17:32 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O <ais523> Sgeo: yeah exactly <ais523> where does the GUI come from? <ais523> it's written in Smalltalk, clearly <ais523> and how does the GUI do its I/O? <ais523> if you think about the issue for too long, you end up inventing Feather
08:17:39 <HackEgo> 923) <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a form of I/O <ais523> Sgeo: yeah exactly <ais523> where does the GUI come from? <ais523> it's written in Smalltalk, clearly <ais523> and how does the GUI do its I/O? <ais523> if you think ab
08:17:48 <ais523> oerjan: it got cut off
08:18:03 <HackEgo> rehtaeF gnitnevni pu dne uoy ,gnol oot rof eussi eht tuoba kniht uoy fi >325sia< ?O/I sti od IUG eht seod woh dna >325sia< ylraelc ,klatllamS ni nettirw s'ti >325sia< ?morf emoc IUG eht seod erehw >325sia< yltcaxe haey :oegS >325sia< O/I fo mrof a si IUG ...O/I fo elbapac etiuq smees ti ,325sia >oegS< esrevinu eht etaerc tsrif tsum uoy ,O/I o
08:18:24 <oerjan> only on output. didn't we already ask Gregor to fix that.
08:18:51 <oerjan> and even pinpoint the exact point in the code to change
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08:22:33 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that
08:22:36 <HackEgo> 924) <ais523> you can define Feather as "Smalltalk done right" if you want to confuse people into wondering why that would involve time travel stuff and all that
08:28:46 <oerjan> clearly that must be estonian.
08:29:53 <fizzie> The esoteric order of the knights of tuba.
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10:07:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29434
10:07:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.424
10:07:35 <fizzie> Hey, the "fueueof" made it to the output. Funky.
10:09:29 <ais523> those numbers are widely varying
10:09:33 <ais523> does it just pick a random number?
10:09:42 <ais523> or is there some pattern that's just not obvious from two examples?
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10:11:40 <oerjan> it seems http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-08-29.txt has the fueue eof discussion
10:12:14 <FreeFull> What you can do is have the compiler forcibly terminate the program on EOF no matter what
10:14:45 <oerjan> FreeFull: that disallows many programs from being written
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10:15:16 <oerjan> e.g. reversing the input is impossible
10:15:58 <fizzie> ais523: It's bash $RANDOM.
10:16:48 <oerjan> so the fueue eof situation is a mess. the C interpreter returns some negative number (usually -1 but not portably), the ocaml interpreter just throws an uncatched exception, and Taneb has not linked to his own interpreter so i don't know what it does.
10:18:43 <fizzie> `run echo 5k $(ls paste | wc -l) 32768/100*n | dc
10:18:55 <fizzie> It's already 1.5% full.
10:18:55 <oerjan> ok http://hpaste.org/73921 is probably from Taneb's so it also throws an exception.
10:19:12 <fizzie> (Not that bin/paste tries to avoid existing pastes or anything.)
10:19:42 <oerjan> and in any case i have no way of distinguishing -1 from 0 while also distinguishing different positive characters.
10:20:07 <fizzie> oerjan: You can just rule out files that ever end, aren't those pretty rare anyway?
10:23:09 <ais523> fizzie: this seems like a good way to do paste expiry, really
10:23:14 <ais523> they expire after a random length of time
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10:50:21 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, I want to put that in an esolang spec, now
10:50:37 <ais523> "reading past end of file does something random and poorly-defined, possibly crashing the program"
10:50:46 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
10:51:39 <fizzie> Well, "ais523" backwards *is* "evil".
10:51:58 <ais523> btw, reading past EOF in INTERCAL causes an unrecoverable fatal error, and there's no way to determine where it is unless you read past it
10:52:12 <ais523> this strikes me as not entirely optimal in terms of I/O capabilities
10:57:05 <ais523> (the obvious fix to this problem, of course, is the CLC-INTERCAL method, whereby you can simultaneously read and not read from the file, and then simultaneously check and not check whether an error was thrown
10:57:23 <ais523> (you need to hedge in the second case, because checking to see if there's been an error throws an error if there wasn't one, obviously)
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11:03:07 <oerjan> I SENSE THIS FIX HAS PROBLEMS
11:17:36 <FreeFull> ais523: How about have it crash only half the time
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15:48:54 <Gregor> <oerjan> only on output. didn't we already ask Gregor to fix that. // "fix" doesn't mean anything. I have to have SOME cutoff, and I don't know which is best.
15:55:51 <elliott> Gregor: well you could just limit it to 512 and let the server cut it off
15:56:39 <Gregor> I seem to recall setting a limit for a reason X-D
15:56:48 <Gregor> Though perhaps it's just that the server gets mad if you go waaaaaaaay over.
15:57:40 <elliott> Gregor: also because otherwise infinite output will hang you
15:58:31 <Gregor> Naw, my reader has a limit of 1024 or something thereabouts.
16:15:05 <c00kiemon5ter> IRC messages are always lines of characters terminated with a CR-LF
16:15:05 <c00kiemon5ter> (Carriage Return - Line Feed) pair, and these messages SHALL NOT
16:15:05 <c00kiemon5ter> exceed 512 characters in length, counting all characters including
16:15:05 <c00kiemon5ter> the trailing CR-LF. Thus, there are 510 characters maximum allowed
16:15:05 <c00kiemon5ter> for the command and its parameters. There is no provision for
16:18:22 <c00kiemon5ter> so 510 - strlen("PRIVMSG :") = 501 chars for the actual message, as defined by the rfc
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16:24:46 <HackEgo> sivoais: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:26:44 <Sgeo> "October 27, 2009: A South Korean pig farmer, who was wanted for assault, cut a hole in the DMZ fence and defected to North Korea.[16]"
16:27:11 <Sgeo> Hard to imagine someone defecting to North Korea
16:27:20 * Sgeo is reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone
16:29:13 <Sgeo> "The Axe Murder Incident in August 1976 involved the attempted trimming of a poplar tree which resulted in two deaths (CPT Arthur Bonifas and 1LT Mark Barrett) and Operation Paul Bunyan."
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17:24:47 <Sgeo> String>>translate doesn't actually do anything, wtf
17:25:02 <Sgeo> It uses NaturalLanguageTranslator class>>translate:
17:25:08 <Sgeo> And that just returns its argument
17:25:36 <Sgeo> "A NaturalLanguageTranslator is a dummy translator.
17:25:36 <Sgeo> The localization framework is found in the gettext package."
17:25:50 <Sgeo> So, is this gettext package supposed to modify String>>translate?
17:25:54 <Sgeo> That's kind of creepy
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18:32:23 <kmc> http://geekfeminism.org/2013/01/21/re-post-hiring-based-on-hobbies-effective-or-exclusive/
18:33:32 <Bike> amateur robotics impractical, heheh
18:34:19 <kmc> "I’ve seen other people imply that there’s something even morally suspect about somebody working an engineering job just for the money... Of course, that’s classist. It’s easier to feel like you’re motivated by the sheer love of your work if you don’t really need the money."
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18:45:28 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i like how that's a re-run of an article from 2 months ago
18:48:24 <kmc> i hadn't seen it 2 months ago because i was not subscribed yet
18:48:59 <Sgeo> Do I count as having open-source experience for having pushed minor patches into stuff
18:49:05 <Sgeo> (And one of those patches was broken)
18:49:08 <Bike> c00kiemon5ter: you could read the article
18:49:56 <Bike> Sgeo: for your resume? seriously just be as positive and reaching as you can
18:50:20 <Sgeo> I'm done editing resume I think
18:50:21 <Sgeo> Or well, at least for now
18:50:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll try to tweak it more later on
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18:59:32 <kmc> c00kiemon5ter: let me guess, you're smart and educated, therefore the idea that your behavior might be unintentionally sexist is absurd
19:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> because i well end up annoyed with everyone involved, myself included
19:01:59 <elliott> I'm kind of bored so I'd actually like to keep going
19:02:07 <elliott> will sit on kmc's side of the stadium and munch some popcorn
19:02:56 <Bike> i feel like i should make some comparison like "[haskell thing that seems weird on the surface but isn't really]" nonhaskeller: "wut", but i can't think of anything. woe
19:03:21 <Bike> i'm a tryhard :(
19:03:46 * Bike sadly pedals off on his non-fixie
19:03:58 <Bike> (can you picture a bike riding a bike)
19:04:16 <kmc> well i've seen lots of those double height hipster bikes
19:04:42 <Bike> truly, hipster bike technology is lightyears ahead of ours
19:04:52 <Bike> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2602/3913184301_0346b553bd_z.jpg Uh.
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19:05:04 <kmc> Bike: except for gears or freewheeling :3
19:05:08 <Bike> I don't... I don't really understand what this is
19:05:20 <kmc> a super tall bike
19:05:26 <kmc> probably made by welding together a few bike frames
19:05:28 <Bike> http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/double_decker.jpg is this a joke
19:05:32 <kmc> i see them around cambridge sometimes
19:05:45 <elliott> Bike: that just makes me think of a penny farthing
19:05:46 <kmc> it's exciting to see someone mount one, they have to hold onto a sign pole or something
19:05:48 <Bike> what's it for? more cargo capacity?
19:06:06 <kmc> they also come perilously close to the trolleybus wires
19:06:08 <elliott> also who invented penny farthings
19:06:21 <Bike> at the food bank people with no cars sometimes have a lot of trouble loading their food on, maybe they could use double deckers
19:06:22 <kmc> elliott: it was before gears
19:06:29 <elliott> Bike: i like how that latter one looks like a cube
19:06:48 <kmc> elliott: so the driving wheel needed to be really huge
19:06:58 <elliott> kmc: ok but they look so stupid
19:07:08 <kmc> you know what else looks stupid? everything from that era
19:07:13 <Bike> apparently penny farthings were also called "man slicers"
19:07:24 <Bike> i feel like this should be an obscure but amusing gay slang, nowadays
19:07:33 <kmc> what about this guy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Harvey_Cable_Car.jpg
19:07:38 <kmc> Bike: haha
19:08:02 <Bike> i like the people on the ground
19:08:05 <Bike> "is this dude serious"
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19:08:27 <kmc> they're probably his investors
19:08:34 <kmc> might be making side bets on whether he dies, to hedge
19:08:58 <kmc> this was the first rapid transit in manhattan
19:09:01 <kmc> fsvo "rapid transit"
19:09:15 <Bike> "above walking speed transit"
19:09:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Velocipede_Michaux-1.jpg apparently the bikes before penny farthings didn't look idiotic, elliott
19:09:40 <Bike> other than having wooden wheels...
19:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michaux-Perreaux_steam_velocipede
19:09:58 <Bike> yeah i don't even know what the fuck is with that
19:10:06 <olsner> hmm, read that as a steam centipede
19:10:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Daimler_Reitwagen.JPG now this, this looks steampunk
19:10:34 <Bike> the irony being it's an ICE not steam i guess
19:11:16 <elliott> Bike: i like how it looks like it has a dead bird for a seat
19:11:21 <c00kiemon5ter> kmc, no, I am very open to re-thinking and critisizing every thing I do and say, and every thing that presents itself as the "default" or "normal" or "right" or whatnot
19:11:44 <Bike> hey, hey, don't be dissing a conversation before it starts
19:11:53 <olsner> (which btw is not a mechanical steam-driven centipede, but a deadly poisonous centipede that can also burn you with steam)
19:11:55 <Bike> is what i should have said ten minutes ago but i was distracted by my brethern
19:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, well i suppose we have been having some vaguely intelligent debates these days
19:12:12 <elliott> hm I could buy bretheren as an arcane plural for bik
19:12:37 <kmc> bicycleaux
19:12:45 <kmc> the jerk store called, they're out of you
19:12:59 <Bike> don't worry, i'm sure we can get people saying dumb things about something
19:13:03 <Bike> what do you all think about engels
19:13:20 <kmc> Bike: i liked communism before it was cool
19:13:24 <Bike> no, a bake is a baby bike
19:13:42 <Bike> the plural of "bike" is "bike", but you pronounce it "beekay"
19:13:56 <kmc> the past The plural of surgeon general is surgeons general. The past tense of surgeons general is surgeonsed general.
19:14:05 <kmc> "not drunk"
19:14:39 <Bike> man remember when quoting (the first) portal didn't drive all good people into an irritated rage
19:14:42 <Bike> those were good times
19:14:49 <kmc> maybe it's back
19:15:17 <Bike> i didn't really have the same thing happen with portal 2, other than watching the sphere compilation videos a few times. maybe... i've grown up........
19:15:27 <elliott> i hear the cake is a lie (i've never finished portal 1 :( )
19:15:36 <elliott> (my computer broke the day after I got like half-way through ti)
19:16:14 <Bike> you could quote the cake recipe
19:16:58 <c00kiemon5ter> soo, I do not think that when you are hiring for engineering, giving extra credit/linking to someone that is interested and contributes to FOSS is a bad thing. I find it reasonable, as the way I see it, is sort of an extra in the candidate's experience. However, "removing points" because he has no such contribution or interest is silly.
19:17:26 <Bike> back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred
19:17:37 <kmc> c00kiemon5ter: i'm not sure that's logically consistent
19:17:48 <kmc> what's the important difference between "adding points" and "not removing points"
19:17:54 <Fiora> I think adding points for X is equivalent to... right
19:18:22 <Bike> hm, i should remember this the next time i'm foolish enough to get into an argument about affirmative action
19:18:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: should have gone with computer science : )
19:19:01 <c00kiemon5ter> you are hiring a software engineer and you ask him what his interests are
19:19:11 <kmc> always "him" eh
19:19:19 <Phantom_Hoover> c00kiemon5ter, given the subject of discussion probably don't use gendered pronouns
19:19:34 <kmc> "them" is fine
19:19:40 <Bike> singular they is what all the cool kids use, but anyway, not that important
19:19:57 <Fiora> "them", "him or her", or just "her" if you're really lazy and/or writing an RPG rules book :P
19:19:58 <kmc> for the record I'm not saying we need to ignore OSS experience (nor am I saying I agree with everything in that article)
19:20:08 <c00kiemon5ter> so, you are hiring a software engineer and you ask them what their interests are
19:20:17 <kmc> just you need to be aware of the social context of who can and can't contribute to OSS. it's not a meritocracy.
19:20:39 <kmc> so maybe we should rely on it a bit less
19:20:51 <kmc> i think acting like you're not a good programmer unless you eat and breathe and shit programming 24/7 is stupid
19:20:54 <elliott> use spivak so you can pretend you're playing agora nomic
19:20:59 <kmc> not just stupid on social justice grounds, stupid in general
19:21:05 <kmc> it makes our entire field look silly and immature
19:21:15 <kmc> like we can't handle the idea of having a job, doing that job well, and then getting paid for that job
19:21:29 <Bike> elliott: do they actually use spivak? I didn't think anyone actually did besides some MOOs... wait.
19:21:38 <kmc> of course certain companies like Google want to perpetuate this state of affairs because it lets them maintain a tighter grip on their employees and their all-consuming infatuation with The Company
19:21:53 <elliott> Bike: in fact agora is a descendent of nomicworld which was played on a mud
19:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover> programming just hasn't developed consistent standards of professionalism
19:21:58 <Bike> elliott: fucking knew it
19:22:00 <elliott> perhaps that is why it uses spivak though I hear it used singular they originally
19:22:26 <Fiora> kmc: I feel like it's one thing to contribute to open source, another to /get your patches accepted/, yet another to be someone major
19:22:35 <Bike> kmc: now i want to find something comparing google to 19th century company towns `-`
19:22:55 <Fiora> the former is easy enough, the middle might depend on things totally out of your control, the latter requires a huge dedication and destruction of free time
19:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: which kind
19:23:31 <Fiora> so like "here's my github, here's 20 hours of open source work I did" isn't too unreasonable I guess?
19:25:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: no standard of professionalism, and quite a few people who see the idea of professionalism or human decency as some kind of terrible oppression
19:26:15 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: the one I've heard a little bit at least is 'ze', 'hir', etc
19:26:29 <Fiora> which seems to be reasonably common among the genderqueer crowd
19:27:07 <kmc> startup culture is a backlash against big company bureacracy, the way that nerd culture is a backlash against people who picked on us in middle school
19:27:36 <kmc> and so much as nerds are compelled to dislike sports, startup hackers are compelled to dislike professionalism, 'policy' of any form, etc.
19:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, essentially the same problem; 'hir' just scans as 'her' for me.
19:28:34 <Fiora> huh. I never noticed that but I guess it might make sense given the whole "Brains ignore the middle letters" thing
19:29:15 <Fiora> "hir" is pronounced as "heer" I think
19:29:27 <Bike> we don't ignore the middle letters, they have to be the same but the order doesn't matter, if you're thinking of that old "cambridge" chain mail
19:29:47 <Fiora> I guess it's supposed to be a cross between "his" and "her"
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19:30:26 <elliott> don't trust chain mail. it won't protect you from halberds
19:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess that might make sense, but 'hihr' is pretty awkward to pronounce.
19:30:34 <Bike> i mostly just use singular they because most people understand it without explanation, and dealing with prescriptivists will happen whenever
19:30:34 <elliott> literally looked up what chain mail was bad against on wikipedia for that
19:30:41 <kmc> Fog Creek Software is unusually explicit about the fact that their corporate culture is "the opposite of Microsoft in 1994"
19:30:47 <Bike> i admire your commitment to that dumb joke, elliott
19:30:59 <elliott> Bike: just as i admire your commitment to being dumb all the time!!
19:31:00 <kmc> elliott: get thee to a ren faire
19:31:01 <Bike> kmc: hypothesis: all these people have read too much Dilbert
19:31:05 <Bike> elliott: :( :( :(
19:31:06 <kmc> Bike: haha yes
19:31:15 <kmc> i loved Dilbert when I was like 10 years old
19:31:31 <kmc> now it seems really dumb
19:31:58 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8AUPSfgk18 etc
19:31:59 <kmc> of course nobody doubts that horrible big company jobs exist, much as nobody doubts that nerds get picked on in middle school
19:32:16 <kmc> the question is, once you escape that, are you going to build a backlash or are you going to build something thoughtful and positive
19:34:19 <elliott> i think i'd like to sit around complaining on irc like kmc OH BURNNN
19:34:26 <elliott> but i have this quota see..
19:35:03 <kmc> well i'm not at work so suck it
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19:47:43 <kmc> Bike: wow that video is... what
19:48:30 <elliott> kmc: have you then also not seen dilbert 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEgtYOJ_qeM
19:48:33 <elliott> (nsfw in all kinds of ways)
19:48:58 <kmc> i guess i had better see it
19:49:18 <elliott> oh that's some reupload. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7bwbl6UHU8
19:49:24 <elliott> high quality dilbert 3 direct download today
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19:52:38 <kmc> is it real and fast?
19:55:41 <Bike> cboyardee is one of the guys behind https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/284/786/d315644299e4c76a2cf3d282b9aa444f_large.gif?1354207645, so
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19:57:26 <Bike> also apparently the dilbert series was turned in as an actual art project at an actual school
19:57:45 <kmc> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130120.gif
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20:01:43 <ion> When you link them like that the bonus image is missing.
20:02:33 <Bike> yeah but biology hates math jokes are dumb
20:02:36 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20130120after.gif
20:02:43 <Fiora> .... wow. I only just -- wow I've totally missed those all this time
20:02:50 <Bike> yeah i had the same reaction
20:03:14 <Bike> i think you're supposed to be donating to get them or something
20:03:44 <ion> Err, that doesn’t have anything to do with donations.
20:04:10 <Bike> well i don't know how to get to the bonus images without manually changing the url, so
20:04:18 <ion> bike: Hover on the red button.
20:06:50 <elliott> did you know xkcd has title text (this one doesn't work because who reads xkcd any more :/)
20:07:05 <Bike> does goatkcd have title text
20:07:24 <Bike> also why can't i find any irregular webcomic strip funny? am i ill?
20:07:36 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: oh gosh
20:07:52 <elliott> iwc is funny but it's not in the you're actually laughing way
20:08:22 <elliott> it's more like spending time with someone who is a funny person except instead of spending time with them you're reading their webcomic on the internet and are actually sad and alone
20:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> have i mentioned that my initials are the same as dmm's
20:09:21 <Phantom_Hoover> every time he was mentioned i yearned to reveal this interesting fact about myself
20:09:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, dmm? Is that the same as reading it for the educational value?
20:09:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is your middle name
20:09:36 <Bike> what the fuck is dmm
20:10:12 <elliott> (he made irregular webcomic (and a bunch of esolangs))
20:11:10 <Sgeo> What esolangs?
20:11:15 <Bike> oh right he made ook
20:11:17 <Bike> and piet I think?
20:11:25 <Bike> "a good brainfuck derivative"
20:11:47 <elliott> this list quoted from that shitty wiki
20:13:14 <Sgeo> Indeed, I did not know that.
20:13:14 <Bike> why are we talking like that
20:13:49 <Sgeo> Have you watched Puella Magi Madoka Magica?
20:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> the point is that you knew of dmm but didn't realise he also did esolangs
20:15:23 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:15:36 <Sgeo> Maybe "knew of" is a bit too extreme
20:15:45 <Sgeo> Wait, is he the dangermouse person?
20:15:46 <Bike> did you know puell magi madoka magica also did esolangs
20:16:23 <zzo38> Someone said the same people who made GHC to write the report? I thought GHC is made by the Glasgow university, and the report is made by the Microsoft research department.
20:16:30 <Fiora> "puella magi" is how they translated "mahou shoujo"
20:16:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: have yo useen the bathhouse anime
20:16:48 <Fiora> they were trying to keep the rather, erm. dark pun present in the original
20:16:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:16:53 <Bike> good anime imo
20:17:16 <Fiora> it's not quite a translation
20:17:35 <Fiora> but hey, it's a retelling of faust, so close enough, right?
20:17:46 <HackEgo> 821) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words
20:18:31 <Bike> Syhggreful is my kind of name
20:18:36 <olsner> (just wanted to check what some of the pony names were)
20:20:09 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: mega spoilers in Japanese, "mahou shoujo" kanji-puns to be similar to the word for "witch", which is what all magical girls are doomed to become. "puella magi" iirc has the same effect, while "magical girl" doesn't
20:20:15 <Fiora> They're all called magical-girls in-story in the translation though.
20:21:17 <Fiora> at least that's what I think it is. I don't really know much about the translation, I only watched the fansubs
20:21:30 <Fiora> well, and the blu-ray I suppose <.<
20:21:31 <Phantom_Hoover> are you sure this translator was entirely aware of how puns work
20:22:02 <Fiora> I suppose it's less puns and more of urobochi's love for foreshadowing
20:22:33 <Bike> i thought "mahou shoujo" was just the usual term for magical girls
20:22:40 <Bike> since they're all a ripoff of Bewitched or something
20:22:55 <Fiora> Yeah, "mahou shoujo" is the standard term
20:23:03 <Fiora> dating back 30-40+ years
20:23:22 <Gregor> You know you've really broken your compiler when: hashTable.ts(151,12): public function return type has or is using private type 'bool'
20:24:23 <Fiora> oh, um, Bike, I saw this challenge thing someone posted on ##c and decided to do it
20:24:28 <Fiora> http://pastebin.com/jrS5ntrQ
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20:25:18 <Bike> does that include the sign bit
20:25:25 <elliott> @tell ais523 you made [[Feather]] less funny, is there anything we can do about that?
20:26:00 <Fiora> I think it includes the sign bit
20:26:25 <Fiora> 17-24 is my attempt at an implementation to test against
20:26:30 <Fiora> (the problem didn't have it)
20:26:57 <Fiora> doing it in less than half the required ops was satisfying though
20:27:49 -!- md_5 has joined.
20:27:58 <olsner> your version is like three times as long
20:28:09 <Fiora> howManyBits isn't a valid solution though >.>
20:28:14 <Fiora> you have to do it without loops, ifs, etc
20:28:22 <Bike> no loop, though
20:28:29 <Fiora> I just wrote it to test against
20:28:47 <Bike> but does it generalize to ints of any length??
20:28:57 <Fiora> I don't think that's possible in C XD
20:28:57 <elliott> Fiora: btw the logs don't show colours so you may want to stick to rot13 if you consider logreaders people (but who would)
20:29:21 <Bike> for your spoilers
20:29:37 <Fiora> sorry. used to using the ctrl-c color thing
20:29:38 <Bike> just think of pooerjan, he'll never be able to watch pool meduka
20:29:46 <Fiora> everyone has already seen madoka magica though
20:30:19 <Fiora> (actually they haven't and I was really shocked when a couple people I know not only hadn't seen it, but somehow had completely avoided spoilers even though all their friends were fans, I don't even know how that's actually possible)
20:30:36 <Bike> heavy use of rot13 i bet
20:31:02 <Bike> also, i'm thinking "poørjan" would be better.
20:35:08 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:37:49 -!- md_5 has joined.
20:38:35 <Fiora> huh,I googled the problem and the original disallows constants outside of the range of 0-0xff
20:38:42 <Fiora> that only took 5 ops to work aruond <.<
20:38:51 <Fiora> int neg1 = ~0; and everything magics
20:39:02 <kmc> zzo38: the main GHC developers have been at MSR for a while
20:40:11 <Bike> how closely are operators like ~ defined? is ~0 definitely going to be int_min
20:40:24 -!- augur has joined.
20:40:30 <kmc> that would assume a 2s complement representation yeah?
20:40:35 <kmc> C doesn't assume that
20:40:41 <Fiora> int32_t is required to be 2s complement accordnig to language lawyers in ##c
20:40:55 <Fiora> and the problem specifies that you can assume 2s complement 32-bit int
20:40:58 <Bike> psh, what are the people on signed magnitude machines going to do!
20:40:58 <zzo38> kmc: OK, but why are they called Glasgow then, if they are really Microsoft Research?
20:41:05 <kmc> does it still have undefined overflow
20:41:08 <Fiora> int32_t is basically like. if the define exists you can assume it acts like you expect
20:41:15 <Bike> because "microsoft research haskell compiler" would scare everyone off
20:41:16 <kmc> zzo38: because the project originated there 20+ years ago
20:41:17 <elliott> GMSHC doesn't have the same ring to it
20:41:39 <kmc> and they did not want to rename it
20:42:09 <Bike> glasgow hugs compiler
20:42:27 <Gregor> I thought it was officially the "Glorious" Haskell Compiler now.
20:42:47 <Bike> just make it a recursive acronym and be done with it
20:42:50 <elliott> Gregor: it's the Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System
20:43:05 <elliott> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1
20:43:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:43:40 <oerjan> <Fiora> everyone has already seen madoka magica though <-- i think the first time i became aware of that name was some time last week when the newspaper had a feature on cosplayers.
20:44:34 -!- monqy has joined.
20:44:39 <olsner> Hideous Hexham Haskell
20:45:39 <olsner> monqy: have you thought about how many times you have to say bye before you've matched all your "hi"s?
20:45:46 <oerjan> <Bike> how closely are operators like ~ defined? is ~0 definitely going to be int_min <-- um it's usually -1 isn't it.
20:45:47 <Fiora> "newspaper feature on cosplayers" oh dears
20:46:52 <olsner> monqy: consider it the next time you say hi
20:46:52 <Bike> oerjan: ok turns out i'm bad at math
20:48:36 <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary?
20:48:57 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary
20:49:00 <HackEgo> 925) <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary
20:49:01 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary?
20:49:04 <HackEgo> 926) <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary?
20:49:09 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> Gregor: are you in the brony documentary
20:49:17 <olsner> Gregor: it has people with hats in it
20:49:31 <monqy> what sort of hats are we talking here
20:50:01 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:50:32 <olsner> nah, but I thought you were a brony for some reason
20:50:35 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:51:14 <oerjan> Gregor is brony. i have seen proof.
20:51:42 <Gregor> But that doesn't make me worth being in the documentary, I'm nobody.
20:51:50 -!- md_5 has joined.
20:51:52 -!- Snowyowl has joined.
20:52:03 <Gregor> I don't think they meticulously combed the entire fanbase.
20:52:13 <oerjan> bronies are so weird that Gregor doesn't even stand out
20:52:23 <Bike> there should be a documentary on brony bfjousters imo
20:52:58 <Bike> i don't know how to link to wiki pages, just look up "bfjoust", Snowyowl
20:53:00 <Snowyowl> if this is some sort of My Little Pony / Brainfuck crossover, I want in
20:53:08 <oerjan> !bfjoust horrible [>+]
20:53:16 <Bike> yeah that's a definite yes
20:53:20 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_horrible: 0.0
20:53:23 <Gregor> oerjan: Even by horrible standards, that's pretty horrible.
20:53:35 <FreeFull> A brainfuck pony would be madness]
20:53:37 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_horribler: 0.0
20:53:52 <oerjan> myndzi: i was trying to be more creatively horrible than that
20:53:58 <myndzi> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
20:54:02 <elliott> well that horrible one isn't so bad is it
20:54:08 <Gregor> !bfjoust horriblest (-)*120[-]
20:54:09 <elliott> but it could theoretically win i think
20:54:11 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_horriblest: 8.4
20:54:59 <myndzi> muahahah slowrush still surviving, but that's probably only because the hill is too big
20:55:11 <myndzi> doesn't do too well these days though
20:55:39 <Gregor> Poor FFSPG is all the way down at #12 :(
20:55:52 <Gregor> I remember when it was king of the hill.
20:56:16 <myndzi> i confess i never believed the game would get this far
20:56:41 <myndzi> though in part that was due to the interpreter limits
20:56:55 <myndzi> and i didn't think anyone would actually take the time to write huge like xbox programs
20:57:25 -!- md_5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:01:22 <Snowyowl> that looks like a hell of a game
21:01:54 -!- augur has joined.
21:03:02 <HackEgo> Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:03:04 <HackEgo> md_5: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:03:18 <myndzi> more like `goodbye md_5
21:04:12 <Snowyowl> question to any bfjoust gurus in here: what happens if the bf program terminates?
21:04:28 <Snowyowl> does the bot just stop doing anything for the rest of the game?
21:04:41 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_lol: 4.6
21:04:43 <myndzi> i don't even remember if . is valid
21:04:59 <Snowyowl> 4.6? Is that out of 10 or 100?
21:05:09 <myndzi> it's based on some algorithm i don't remember
21:05:12 <myndzi> it means it won a couple games
21:05:21 <myndzi> probably programs that skip the first decoy
21:05:29 <Snowyowl> so it did nothing and still beat someone
21:05:31 <myndzi> which means they skipped over the flag and ran off the end
21:05:34 <fizzie> The maximum is 100, though.
21:05:51 <myndzi> i actually am happy that i got to contribute to the development of this game :)
21:05:55 <myndzi> i always felt like i missed out on corewars
21:06:08 <fizzie> "Points" is just raw duel points from -84 to 84, but "score" is more complicated: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
21:06:25 <myndzi> 4.6 is really low anyway
21:06:48 <myndzi> top score tends to approach 60
21:07:15 <myndzi> the bottom one still on the hill is 16.95
21:07:19 <myndzi> not including the last one submitted
21:07:47 <myndzi> i don't even want to bother figuring out what the top programs are doing anymore
21:08:04 <fizzie> Some of them have descriptions.
21:08:15 <myndzi> yeah, i just looked up the strategy page on the wiki
21:10:12 <myndzi> wtf internet why do i keep getting disconnected
21:10:38 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:10:46 <myndzi> it's the same bounce on the other networks
21:16:35 <Snowyowl> !bfjoust preconceived_notions (>)*10[-][-.]
21:16:38 <EgoBot> Score for Snowyowl_preconceived_notions: 4.9
21:16:56 <Snowyowl> woo, 0.3 better than doing nothing
21:17:20 <myndzi> i miss the beginnings when the warriors were simple :(
21:17:28 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred
21:17:31 <HackEgo> 926) <Bike> back in high school a guy printed out the entire script of portal 1 and was reading it out during a field trip. it's possible i'm mentally scarred
21:17:54 <myndzi> btw whoever designed the visualization for the javascript interpreter did an excellent job
21:17:56 <elliott> kind of person who would do quote 926
21:18:08 <Bike> oerjan are you that guy i know???
21:18:10 <Snowyowl> there's a javascript interpreter?
21:18:29 <myndzi> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/
21:18:54 <oerjan> Bike: doubtful, do you know many norwegians who haven't been outside the country for a decade?
21:19:14 <FreeFull> What is the purpose of bfjoust?
21:19:59 <oerjan> it came out of agora nomic. your question is thus meaningless.
21:20:04 <myndzi> purpose is to capture the flag
21:20:18 <Bike> it's basically like Team Fortress 2
21:20:19 <myndzi> you want the opponent's flag position to equal 0 for a full cycle
21:20:37 <myndzi> each cell is a byte value initialized to 0; flags initialize to 128
21:21:00 <myndzi> the tape length used to be random, but now results are calculated for every tape length
21:21:08 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 9.1
21:21:09 <myndzi> 10-30 or something? i forget
21:21:11 <FreeFull> !bfjoust cheesegrater +[+[-]+]
21:21:15 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 8.3
21:21:28 <FreeFull> Changing it decreased my score =P
21:21:39 <myndzi> it actually runs twice for every tape length
21:21:43 <myndzi> once as written for both programs
21:21:48 <myndzi> and one with + and - swapped for one program
21:21:49 <Taneb> Bike: BF Joust is a hat simulator?
21:21:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust prehistoric_notions (>)*10([-]>]*-1
21:22:02 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_prehistoric_notions: 0.0
21:22:03 <myndzi> this is to eliminate the necessity/possibility of biasing programs with + or -
21:22:24 <Snowyowl> i like my program that wins every single time as long as the tape length is exactly 11
21:22:32 <FreeFull> !bfjoust cheesegrater +[-]-[+]
21:22:37 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_cheesegrater: 8.3
21:22:48 <myndzi> most programs assume that it's safe to move 11
21:22:54 <myndzi> since if they're wrong they only give up one loss
21:22:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust prehistoric_notions (>)*10([-]>)*-1
21:23:02 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_prehistoric_notions: 17.0
21:23:06 <myndzi> and programs that don't modify the tape before their flag aren't that effective
21:23:19 <boily> !bfjoust hovercraft (>)*9[[-]>]
21:23:21 <myndzi> so it's a fair bet that you can skip the first modification you find up to 11 or so
21:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for boily_hovercraft: 4.0
21:23:37 <boily> !bfjoust hovercraft (>)*9[[-.]>]
21:23:40 <EgoBot> Score for boily_hovercraft: 4.0
21:23:51 <FreeFull> Wait, I forgot to make mine move =P
21:24:13 <fizzie> [23:06:08] <fizzie> "Points" is just raw duel points from -84 to 84, but "score" is more complicated: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
21:24:30 <fizzie> (xxx)*N is just "repeat N times".
21:24:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:25:00 <myndzi> somebody should set up a clean hill so these guys can have some fun
21:25:12 <Snowyowl> freefull: I can't believe your program always commits suicide in 260 moves and it still beats mine sometimes
21:25:17 <fizzie> And (aa{bb}cc)%3 is aa aa aa bb cc cc cc.
21:25:39 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
21:25:49 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_floppity: 3.6
21:25:59 <fizzie> There's also [shameless plug] more stats at http://zem.fi/egostats/ but it doesn't update live, so it's a few weeks old.
21:26:02 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_floppity: 3.6
21:26:17 <myndzi> ooh, the plots are interesting!
21:26:20 <Bike> with the proper marketing bfjoust could be the next Call of Duty
21:27:21 <fizzie> Those are the two polarities.
21:27:30 <FreeFull> So you lose as soon as your cell is zero, or do you lose if you cell is zero and your program isn't running at that point?
21:27:42 <fizzie> One is the straight one, other is where the other program has all its +s flipped to -ses and vice versa.
21:27:48 <myndzi> i mean, i figured that's what it would be
21:28:00 <myndzi> they need better names then :P
21:28:12 <fizzie> I even forget the terms, I had to look them up when writing those descriptions.
21:28:13 <FreeFull> Sieve is obviously reality prime
21:28:28 <fizzie> "The polarity where both programs run on their original polarity is sometimes known as "sieve", and the exchanged polarity as "kettle"."
21:28:43 <myndzi> whoever came up with that needs a beating
21:29:01 <fizzie> I'd like to blame elliott, but I'm not certain it's his fault.
21:29:41 <Gregor> I strongly suspect that it is.
21:29:58 <fizzie> [2009-05-27 22:31:26] <ehird> ais523: Polarities: sieve, kettle.
21:30:03 <fizzie> (First hit from grep.)
21:30:18 <myndzi> jesus that's a long time ago
21:30:25 <oerjan> FreeFull: you lose if your cell is zero two rounds in a row
21:31:14 <Snowyowl> !bfjoust booooooring (>)*9((+*128.)>)*21
21:31:17 <EgoBot> Score for Snowyowl_booooooring: 0.0
21:32:12 <oerjan> Snowyowl: i'm not sure the parentheses before * are optional even with a single command
21:32:16 <Taneb> `learn ehird is the person who Taneb definitely isn't.
21:32:33 <fizzie> oerjan: They're not optional, no.
21:32:51 <Snowyowl> oh, right - parenthesis in the wrong place
21:33:20 <Snowyowl> !bfjoust really_boring (>)*9((+*128.)>)*21
21:33:24 <EgoBot> Score for Snowyowl_really_boring: 0.0
21:33:46 <Gregor> Snowyowl: You have a syntax error.
21:33:48 -!- copumpkin has quit.
21:33:57 <Gregor> *n can only come after a )
21:34:00 <Snowyowl> !bfjoust warned_you_bro (>)*9((+)*128.>)*21
21:34:03 <EgoBot> Score for Snowyowl_warned_you_bro: 3.8
21:34:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:22 <Snowyowl> 3.8? I'll stick to my infinite chain of no-ops.
21:34:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:34:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
21:34:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
21:34:55 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-]>.)*-1
21:34:57 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 13.4
21:35:10 <Snowyowl> by which I mean myndzi's infinite chain of no-ops
21:35:23 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:35:25 <Snowyowl> wait, *-1 makes it repeat forever
21:35:42 <myndzi> probably makes it repeat 4294967296 times
21:35:53 <boily> !bfjoust ventilateur (>)*9([-{([+{[-]}])%8}])%4
21:35:56 <EgoBot> Score for boily_ventilateur: 4.4
21:35:56 <Gregor> IIRC, *-1 is just a number so large that it's infinite for all practical purposes.
21:36:02 <oerjan> i think it's something like 10000
21:36:03 <Snowyowl> good enough, the game only lasts 10,000 turns
21:36:51 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
21:37:27 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions ((>)*4+>)*2([-]>)*-1
21:37:29 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 15.9
21:38:15 <oerjan> hm it's actually pushing my other one down :(
21:38:34 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions <
21:38:38 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 0.0
21:38:45 <fizzie> It's exactly the number of turns, if I recall correctly.
21:38:50 <fizzie> Though I think that was 100k and not 10k.
21:39:06 <myndzi> oh, it's special-cased?
21:39:14 <myndzi> seemed like the kind of thing someone just tried and happened to work
21:39:23 <myndzi> that is, -1 interpreted as an unsigned int
21:39:25 <fizzie> That might have been the origin of it.
21:39:54 <Gregor> That was definitely not the origin, since the original interpreter canonicalized.
21:40:00 <oerjan> in the original, ()* was expanded during parsing.
21:40:17 <fizzie> Well, it is special-cased currently.
21:40:26 <fizzie> (if (c < 0) c = MAXCYCLES;)
21:40:36 <fizzie> (Apparently any negative number is okay.)
21:41:31 <Snowyowl> does *0 just mean "lol I put code in for no reason"
21:43:04 <Gregor> Snowyowl: Or, alternately, comment.
21:43:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-][+]>)*-1
21:44:02 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 13.4
21:44:43 <myndzi> any of you guys ever messed around with editing apk files?
21:45:10 <myndzi> i evolved myself a keyboard layout that i want to try on my phone, but i can't seem to edit it into swiftkey quite properly
21:46:19 <myndzi> (swiftkey because it is awesome, and it'd be kind of pointless to hack a layout into a soft keyboard i didn't want to use)
21:46:20 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-{.}]>)%-1
21:46:23 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 3.9
21:46:33 <myndzi> it seems fairly easy, each layout is a separate xml file
21:46:50 <myndzi> but just changing the values caused it to force close every time i click a submenu
21:47:50 <oerjan> !bfjoust preposterous_notions (>)*10([-{.}]>+)%-1
21:47:52 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_preposterous_notions: 1.1
21:47:56 <myndzi> it installs and launches
21:48:29 <myndzi> and if it was a built-in-to-the-program checksum kinda thing, which i doubt, it wouldn't force close i think
21:55:59 <myndzi> hm, looks like SK is actually active on twitter, maybe i'll ask them
21:56:13 <myndzi> except that twitter seems to be down and i can't log in
21:56:25 <myndzi> well, twitter *login* seems to be down
22:00:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:00:59 <Sgeo> Is 45k/year decent for someone with my experience?
22:01:05 <Sgeo> I flat out have no idea
22:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that's roughly the average wage in the UK but living costs etc.
22:02:18 <Sgeo> I'm still happy that I got a call from a potential employer
22:02:25 <Bike> http://thecontributor.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/images/20131401143736.jpg here let's consult the wall street journal
22:02:37 <Sgeo> They want me to add some stuff to my resume that I didn't mention on the resume
22:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, so is the joke here that they have a zero too many.
22:04:11 <Lumpio-> Wait, all those people are making six figures in a year
22:04:17 <Lumpio-> Isn't that a bit, excessive?
22:04:24 <Bike> the joke here is that fuck the wsj
22:04:45 <Bike> (but uh i have no idea how reasonable $45k is sorry)
22:05:38 <EgoBot> Score for FreeFull_simple: 3.6
22:13:30 -!- Taneb has quit.
22:15:46 <Sgeo> Not sure where I'm going to fit the term "jQuery" on my resume
22:15:52 <Sgeo> It isn't exactly a programming language
22:16:00 <kmc> drop the categories
22:16:05 <olsner> why would you want to have that on your resume?
22:16:22 <kmc> because it's massively useful and widely used?
22:16:23 <Bike> Sgeo: "proficient in the following technologies"
22:16:30 <kmc> don't even put aheading on it
22:16:50 <elliott> == things what i done be good at ==
22:16:52 <Sgeo> olsner, because employer asked me to
22:16:54 <kmc> for the 100th time: your resume is an advertisement, it's not a pedantically organized character sheet
22:17:20 <kmc> its sole purpose is to make you look good enough to get a phone call
22:17:27 <Sgeo> I got the phone call though.
22:17:34 <Bike> to get more phone calls, then
22:17:37 <kmc> then why are you still adjusting your resume?
22:17:45 <Sgeo> They told me to add things to it
22:18:00 <Sgeo> "I know you stated you had experience working with JavaScript and jQuery so I would need you to add these two skill sets within your resume. I also need you to add your C# experience within your resume, along with sending me your github account and blog info as well."
22:18:14 <kmc> that doesn't make any sense to me
22:18:22 <kmc> is it a big company or small?
22:18:27 <olsner> I guess they're about to sell you to someone else
22:18:29 <Sgeo> I tgather small
22:18:35 <elliott> this employer sounds a bit dubious
22:18:42 <Sgeo> The person is a "Recruiting Manager"
22:18:48 <kmc> it sounds like a third party recruiter may be involved and those people are basically the devil
22:18:50 <elliott> of course i would know with my EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE IN PROGRAMMING-RELATED EMPLOYMENT
22:19:05 <olsner> elliott: are you old enough to legally be employed yet?
22:19:33 <Bike> sgeo, if you get eaten by an HR manager, can I have your stuff
22:19:34 <Sgeo> kmc, well, I gather that it's for a specific position, of {possibly full-time or possibly contractor}
22:20:25 <Sgeo> ...I think it is a third party thing
22:20:44 <Sgeo> Company of the person: http://www.momentumrs.com/ Company of the potential place of employment: http://www.jefferies.com/
22:21:10 <elliott> Momentum Resource Solutions is a leading provider of Technology, Financial and Human Resource staffing and consulting services and solutions. Momentum's clients operate in many sectors including Financial Services, Pharmaceutical, Insurance, Legal, Telecommunications and Technology.
22:21:11 <olsner> hint: they don't have the same address
22:21:17 <Bike> wow that looks boring
22:21:22 <elliott> We provide professional services in the following areas:
22:21:23 <Bike> money is money, i guess
22:21:29 <elliott> Human ResourcesProject Management
22:21:40 <Bike> nooooo we've lost him!
22:21:41 <olsner> "Compliance" sounds ominous
22:21:55 <zzo38> I think the four alignments for creature kind entry in Icosahedral RPG shall be: U (unaligned), S (stereotype), A (always), and X (don't care). S is most common for intelligent beings, and U for normal animals.
22:21:55 * oerjan is about to do some antispam exchange if this continues
22:22:20 <elliott> oerjan: i think you'll find that f u
22:22:37 <boily> anitspam exchange?
22:22:52 <Sgeo> help maybe talking about this in a publically logged channel is a bad idea
22:22:53 <Bike> exchanging spam with antispam, then harvesting the resulting annihilation energy
22:23:11 <elliott> Sgeo: they won't google for "sgeo"
22:23:14 -!- md_5 has joined.
22:23:16 <elliott> unless you put "sgeo" on your resume???
22:23:30 <Sgeo> elliott, I am planning on linking to my GitHub and Tumblr, both of which mention Sgeo
22:23:48 <Bike> tumblrs as employment thing... that's pretty ominous
22:23:58 <elliott> have you considered: starting accounts under your own name
22:24:01 <Sgeo> It's a form of blog, they ask if I have a technical blog and I do
22:24:22 <Bike> i have got to remember to never get employed in this business
22:24:35 <Sgeo> I didn't tell them it was a tumblr yet
22:24:45 <Sgeo> Is there something wrong with using tumblr as a blog?
22:24:50 <olsner> heh, I read "form of blog" as farming blog
22:24:56 <Bike> ha, no, i'm just thinking of my own tumblr
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22:25:34 <elliott> olsner: sgeos farmville days are behind him
22:25:48 <kmc> Sgeo: recruiters are the devil, you're lucky that they even asked you to modify your resume rather than modifying it themselves
22:25:52 <kmc> probably because you used latex
22:26:02 <kmc> i'm not even joking :(
22:26:10 <kmc> so how did you contact the company?
22:26:13 <kmc> through dice.com or something
22:26:15 <Bike> i know, i just find true things amusing
22:26:27 <elliott> Bike: did you know... 4 + 9 = 13
22:26:28 <Sgeo> kmc, honestly I don't even remember
22:26:28 <kmc> it would be better to email jobs@wherever.com if this seems viable
22:26:41 <olsner> they can just print/tippex/scribble/scan
22:27:01 <Bike> elliott: psh only in one base
22:27:02 <kmc> like I've heard of people getting rejected because they "lied on their resume" when these lies were added by recruiters
22:27:10 <kmc> the recruiter's incentives are not aligned with anyone else's
22:27:17 <elliott> Sgeo: how... did you forget in the space of not very long
22:27:29 <Bike> ok, i want to hear about this, why the hell would a recruiter /modify/ your resume?
22:27:50 <kmc> to increase the chance that you get the job and they get their bounty
22:27:56 <Sgeo> kmc, I misspoke on the phone interview
22:28:01 <kmc> they have no incentive to find a good fit or an employee who won't get fired after 2 months
22:28:21 <Bike> capitalism's a hell of a drug
22:28:22 <Sgeo> kmc, I said that everything except Evolution was on my own initiative, but forgot about Circe which also was someone else's project
22:28:22 <kmc> if they think you have no chance getting in with a legit resume, there's no cost to them to add lies
22:28:46 <kmc> also they are sometimes gaming the system set up by clueless buzzword-searching HR departments
22:29:06 <kmc> they add some value in that they are better at gaming this system than naive, hand-wringing, pedantic correctness obsessed programmers ;)
22:29:09 <Sgeo> Well, arguably, they are helping me improve my resyme
22:29:12 <kmc> yeah maybe
22:29:19 <kmc> or maybe they're trying to kill you and shit on your corpse
22:29:24 <kmc> you can never tell
22:29:24 <Bike> adding jquery seems pretty reasonable
22:29:26 <kmc> yes it does
22:29:29 <elliott> kmc: well the cost is that it might be illegal(?) right
22:29:32 <elliott> but I doubt that's a very big cost
22:29:36 <Sgeo> And listing my Senior Project too
22:29:42 <elliott> since breaking laws is pretty safe!
22:29:50 <kmc> elliott: is it illegaly?
22:29:56 <Sgeo> What's not so reasonable is asking me to mention Javascript when I already mentioned Javascript
22:29:57 <elliott> well that's what the (?) is for
22:30:01 <kmc> yeah i don't know
22:30:15 <elliott> seems like it would fall under the crime of LYING
22:32:34 <Bike> Sgeo: like, they said, "add javascript" and you already have javascript?
22:33:25 <olsner> they must think it's good to have javascript listen twice
22:33:34 <Sgeo> Well, in my industry related activities I didn't exactly list when I did Javascript stuff
22:33:36 <olsner> I wonder if my resume lists javascript
22:34:00 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:34:10 <olsner> I might have done almost as much vbscript as javascript, should I list that?
22:35:12 <elliott> olsner: list mod_rewrite thue imo
22:37:46 <olsner> vbscript probably belongs in the list of things I don't remember if I know/knew, but have vague recollections I might have known, along with REXX
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22:39:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:40:46 * oerjan hopes this is not one of those disconnections that plagued much of last year
22:41:39 <olsner> last year was plagued by time travelling disconnections from this year?
22:42:09 <pikhq> Secretely, oerjan is John Titor.
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22:47:40 <zzo38> Can any computer game you can set the friendly AI mode to, try to make you to lose?
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23:44:45 <kmc> which here bot has 'seen'
23:45:12 <elliott> could add a `seen directly I guess
23:45:38 <kmc> hm i have total logs anyway
23:47:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
23:48:04 <elliott> `tail /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-01.txt
23:48:05 <HackEgo> 23:44:47: <shachaf> monqy: no!! it's about uh clojure \ 23:45:02: <monqy> are you confusing me for sgeo. i don't know clojure........ \ 23:45:34: <shachaf> do you know lens......... \ 23:45:39: <monqy> : ) \ 23:45:54: <shachaf> : ) \ 23:46:01: <ion> : ) \ 23:47:45: <shachaf> ion knows lens. \ 23:48:27: <shachaf> (If I start a line with a space it
23:48:46 <elliott> `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen
23:48:56 <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: <ion> k
23:49:07 <ion> `seen HackEgo
23:49:11 <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:56: <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: <ion> k
23:49:17 <ion> `seen HackEgo
23:49:20 <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:49:11: <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:56: <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2013-01-21.txt:23:48:23: <ion> k
23:49:47 <HackEgo> 2012-07-29.txt:12:43:43: <Vorpal> fizzie, hm there is /dev/binder opened as fd 3, and there were a lot of ioctls done on that
23:49:51 <elliott> `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>/bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen
23:49:54 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/seen: Read-only file system
23:51:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:51:26 <olsner> read-only file system!?
23:51:34 <oerjan> elliott: (echo ...; echo ...) >bin/seen is shorter
23:51:49 <ion> printf '%s\n' ... ... >bin/seen is shorter
23:51:57 <elliott> `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>/bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen
23:51:59 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/seen: Read-only file system
23:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:52:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
23:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:52:37 <elliott> `run echo "#!/bin/sh" >bin/seen; echo 'cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric' >>bin/seen; echo 'grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" ????-??-??.txt | tail -n 1' >>bin/seen; chmod +x bin/seen
23:52:52 <HackEgo> 2013-01-21.txt:23:52:46: <elliott> `seen elliott
23:53:13 <HackEgo> 2012-07-18.txt:18:17:18: <lament> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:53:32 <HackEgo> 2012-12-03.txt:21:43:21: <oerjan_> boo
23:53:42 <HackEgo> 2012-10-08.txt:11:31:58: <elliott_> pikhq_: Hey, is Nvidia or ATI better supported by Linux this month?
23:53:45 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, you can't write to /bin X_X
23:54:14 <elliott> and search in reverse order
23:54:26 <HackEgo> 2011-05-05.txt:11:38:06: <mtve> other examples needed badly
23:54:34 <oerjan> ...i like allowing regexps
23:54:46 <elliott> oerjan: ok you make it search in reverse order then
23:54:53 <olsner> good, my evil twin has not been here
23:54:54 -!- sivoais has joined.
23:55:04 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:55:49 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '
23:55:50 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:57:55 <oerjan> `run printf '%s\n' what is this
23:58:03 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep '^..:..:..: <"'$1'">' -- | tail -n 1" >bin/seen; chmod 755 bin/seen; cat bin/seen
23:58:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep '^..:..:..: <$1>' -- | tail -n 1
23:58:52 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' '#!/bin/sh' "find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep \"^..:..:..: <"'$1'">\" -- | tail -n 1" >bin/seen; chmod 755 bin/seen; cat bin/seen
23:58:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ find /var/irclogs/_esoteric -mindepth 1 -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '????-??-??.txt' | sort -r | xargs -d'\n' -r grep "^..:..:..: <$1>" -- | tail -n 1
23:59:01 <ion> `seen elliott
23:59:09 <HackEgo> /var/irclogs/_esoteric/2009-07-27.txt:00:11:06: <elliott> 112 days since use, excellent
23:59:57 <Bike> :< i am the invisible man