00:01:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:46 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Quit: ragequit).
00:55:49 -!- azaq23 has joined.
01:04:34 <hagb4rd> happy easter egg http://178.63.82.135:9090
01:08:21 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host).
01:08:21 -!- tswett has joined.
01:11:41 -!- spacew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:26:14 -!- bengt_ has joined.
01:30:13 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:32:09 -!- heroux has joined.
01:32:17 <hagb4rd> i hope the record goes well
01:33:29 <Sgeo> Fuck Eclipse, fuck Eclipse, I'll see your ass in Eclipse, I'll see you down in hell, Pachelbel... erm, Eclipse
01:33:35 <Arc_Koen> it reminds me of the film sound of noise
01:33:51 <hagb4rd> sound of noise..sounds interesting
01:34:12 <pikhq> It's like the sound of music, only less musical.
01:36:05 <Arc_Koen> hagb4rd: first look for "music for one apartment and six drummers"
01:36:11 <Arc_Koen> it's a short film (less than ten minutes)
01:36:32 <Arc_Koen> apparently it was quite successful so they made the film on the same idea
01:37:23 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd2.
01:37:53 <hagb4rd2> @tell hagb4rd <Arc_Koen>hagb4rd: first look for "music for one apartment and six drummers" | the film sound of noise
01:38:17 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rdoux.
01:40:24 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:41:13 -!- heroux has joined.
01:41:28 -!- Sanky has left (".").
01:43:42 <Sgeo> And . to you too!
01:49:44 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:49:58 <Arc_Koen> ah well, my spelling was close :)
01:50:20 -!- heroux has joined.
01:50:52 <hagb4rdoux> zug would be train.. and abend evening :)
01:51:37 <Arc_Koen> yes that's why it didn't make that much sense to me
01:51:58 <Arc_Koen> except as the title of some horror movies with zombies in a train
01:53:23 <hagb4rdoux> hm.. i somehow feel like goin out and check one of tose easter-parties
01:53:59 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about easter eggs in video games or films or that kind of stuff
01:56:29 <Arc_Koen> did some guys hid chocolate eggs all around their place and people search for them?
01:56:30 <hagb4rdoux> basically with girls, drugs and rocknroll
01:57:29 <Arc_Koen> well if you don't need to wake up early tomorrow morning I'd say go for it!
01:59:13 <Arc_Koen> we usually just get the monday
01:59:33 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:59:58 <Arc_Koen> and also I'm not exactly employed at the moment
02:09:56 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:11:36 <Arc_Koen> hagb4rdoux: so how many people are performing?
02:11:42 -!- heroux has joined.
02:11:49 <Arc_Koen> (in that easter thing I'm currently listening to)
02:11:54 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
02:17:19 <Arc_Koen> I'm gonna head to bed, have a good party
02:17:26 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
02:20:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
02:20:47 -!- carado has joined.
02:30:25 <ais523> hey, have we laughed at gprolog recently? or ever?
02:30:58 <Bike> is it like gnu smalltalk
02:31:57 <Bike> The performances of GNU Prolog are very encouraging (comparable to commercial systems).
02:32:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "constrain to be greater than", except that it sometimes fails for no apparent reason
02:32:19 <ais523> #># is the version that doesn't sometimes fail for no apparent reason, it's slower
02:32:22 <ais523> and that's a gprolog extension
02:32:28 <ais523> so SWI probably doesn't understand it at all
02:32:38 <ais523> | ?- X1 * Y1 #= 24; X2 * Y2 #= 25.
02:32:48 <ais523> there's an example of "sometimes fails for no apparent reason"
02:32:50 <Bike> So it takes fourteen and a half seconds to tell you that > is antireflexive?
02:33:05 <ais523> | ?- X1 * Y1 #=# 24; X2 * Y2 #=# 25.
02:33:06 <ais523> X1 = _#3(1..4:6:8:12:24@)
02:33:08 <ais523> Y1 = _#22(1..4:6:8:12:24@) ? ;
02:33:15 <ais523> there's the fixed version with #=#, by the way
02:33:18 <Bike> What the hell's happening there, like... is it trying every number or something
02:33:28 <ais523> Bike: it's doing what I told it to do
02:33:40 <ais523> find X1, Y1, X2, Y2 such that X1*Y1=24, or X2*Y2=25
02:33:50 <Bike> I mean with the #> thing.
02:34:02 <ais523> yeah, I'm guessing it tries every number
02:34:20 <ais523> between 0 and its maxint
02:34:24 <ais523> which is a bit lower than the usual maxint
02:34:33 <Bike> shachaf: something something hypermegaultrafinitism
02:35:07 <ais523> the fact that that's around twice as much makes me wonder
02:35:59 <tswett> Say, I thought of something. Currently, programming languages and program operation are intimately tied together.
02:36:12 <tswett> If you want to write a program that works like a Python program, you have to write it in Python; you can't write it in Haskell.
02:36:51 <tswett> I wonder if there's some way you could divorce language from behavior. I mean, in any programming language, you're essentially defining the behaviors of a bunch of tiny objects.
02:37:11 <Bike> Well what do you mean by "language" exactly
02:37:44 <tswett> Maybe you could come up with some programming language that's perfectly good at expressing Python programs, Haskell programs, C++ programs, and what have you.
02:37:57 <ais523> also hilarious is "findall(X,current_atom(X),Y)."
02:38:07 <tswett> Bike: I may have used it with different meanings in different places.
02:38:08 <ais523> GNU Prolog only supports the use of a capped finite number of strings, ever
02:38:13 <ais523> that lists the strings that have been used so far
02:38:29 <Bike> that's beautiful ais
02:38:33 <ais523> it contains strings like '/home/diaz/GP/src/src/BipsPl/type_inl.pl'
02:38:58 <ais523> and '/build/buildd/gprolog-1.3.0/src/BipsFD/fd_bool.pl'
02:39:09 <ais523> Perl is capable of handling arbitrarily many strings over the lifetime of a program
02:39:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:39:32 <Bike> Yeah, I just thought it would be funny if the prolog system was written in Perl.
02:39:43 <ais523> also a lot of debug messages, an the like
02:39:52 <ais523> Bike: Prolog doesn't look very like Perl at all
02:39:59 <Bike> tswett: But I mean, it's not that hard to throw on a different parser; I imagine you mean something more interesting.
02:40:07 <Bike> ais523: .pl is used for perl, isn't it?
02:40:20 <Bike> So I've learned.
02:40:24 <ais523> although Perl seems to win that battle, so I use .pro for Prolog
02:40:50 <ais523> I think that one's also already taken :)
02:41:14 <ais523> .pro is also already taken according to Emacs, but it clashes with something I've never heard of
02:41:25 <zzo38> Multiple posedge signals is OK in discrete logic, so I didn't know that it is not valid in FPGA. Is there a way to make it valid? I think some FPGA have multiple clock input?
02:42:12 <tswett> So, uh, take a Haskell definition like this one:
02:42:27 <ais523> zzo38: most FPGAs will work with one, complain but mostly work with two and maybe three, and fail with much more
02:42:37 <ais523> basically, they have to use clock circuitry for anything that is used in posedge
02:42:44 <ais523> and they have a lot more logic circuitry than clock circuitry
02:42:55 <ais523> also they can't drive the same register from more than one clock
02:43:00 <tswett> What's the behavior of that definition? It's to create a constant thunk of type Char that, when evaluated, yields the character 'a'.
02:43:21 <Bike> I'm not sure what you just said is Haskell semantics, strictly speaking?
02:43:24 <Bike> Like... what's "create".
02:43:27 <ais523> yeah; and in this case, that's equivalent to making ch an alias for 'a', which is what the same line would do in Algol
02:43:35 <ais523> Bike: talking about Haskell semantics in a general discussion is a bad idea
02:43:51 <Bike> Well yes semantics are egh, but I mean it doesn't have to mean creating anything, does it?
02:43:51 <ais523> because there are so many simplifying assumptions that are true of Haskell but not in general
02:43:52 <tswett> Well, by "create" I guess I mean something like "declare the existence of" or whatever.
02:43:56 <ais523> and Haskell programers act like they're always correct
02:44:07 <zzo38> ais523: O, so something like always@(posedge X) Z<=0; always@(posedge Y) Z<=1; is not allowed; is that what you mean?
02:44:17 <ais523> zzo38: yeah, a typical FPGA physically can't implement that
02:44:19 <kmc> thunks aren't part of Haskell semantics, the language doesn't guarantee lazy evaulation, only non-strict semantics
02:44:28 <zzo38> (Well, in that case there are race conditions too)
02:44:33 <kmc> also I would probably not call that a thunk anyway, because there's no application to reduce
02:44:35 <ais523> a sufficiently good synthesizer might be able to translate it into something they could implement that did the same thing, but it'd be much more complicated
02:44:42 <tswett> kmc: yeah, fair enough.
02:44:48 <kmc> Char is an abstract data type, so it's implementation defined
02:44:56 <pikhq> I'm not sure where my mind is, but I read "posedge" as "Poseidon".
02:44:56 <kmc> but there's a good chance that 'a' is already in weak head-normal form
02:45:08 <tswett> It declares *something* that can be queried to yield the bits and bytes representing the character 'a'.
02:45:09 <ais523> actually, no it couldn't
02:45:30 <kmc> you can't really get the bits and bytes
02:45:32 <Bike> Bits and bytes huh.
02:45:38 <ais523> if X becomes 0, Y becomes 0, X becomes 1, Y becomes 1 in that order, there's no circuitry that exists in a typical FPGA that could create a clock that could clock the register on both positive edges
02:45:46 <Bike> And what querying, does haskell have querying?
02:45:54 <kmc> you can't observe whether your implementation stores Char as UTF-8 or UTF-32, any more than you can observe whether it stores Int in big-endian or little-endian order
02:45:59 <ais523> what if you had more than one register?
02:46:00 <kmc> it's just not relevant
02:46:11 <tswett> I'm talking about if you were to translate the definition "ch = 'a'" into C or something.
02:46:24 <kmc> Bike: \ldots
02:46:29 <ais523> actually, I think you could do it with four registers
02:46:35 <Bike> Well in C it's an assignment. That's pretty different from a Haskell binding.
02:46:37 <ais523> this is actually an interesting esoprogramming experiment
02:46:48 <Bike> kmc: I don't remember what that is :(
02:47:06 <tswett> \ldots is a low horizontal ellipsis, like …
02:47:11 <zzo38> ais523: There might be possibility; is there a program to convert "portable Verilog" into what is needed for specific FPGA or whatever is being used?
02:47:26 <zzo38> I think such thing might be useful if you cannot otherwise write a portable Verilog code.
02:47:33 <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q[0:1]=R[0:1]+1; always@(posedge Y) R[0:1]=Q[0:1]+1; assign Z=(Q-R)[1]
02:47:36 <Bike> Oh. Well maybe your bicycle is going to penetrate you and you'll just have to deal.
02:48:05 <ais523> zzo38: and yes; FPGAs have custom input formats, but they all come with compilers (which tend to be very expensive) to convert portable Verilog into their own input format
02:48:11 <tswett> zzo38: I guess I figured that what you'd do is just only write Verilog that works on all of the FPGAs you want to target.
02:48:14 <pikhq> tswett: It could create a thunk resulting in the UTF-32 encoding of 'a'. Alternately, it could create a thunk resulting in a Church numeral.
02:48:32 <tswett> pikhq: indeed, but the latter behavior would be annoying if you wanted to query this thing from C.
02:48:39 <ais523> tswett: well my Verity compiler outputs portable VHDL, and could be made to output portable Verilog upon similar lines
02:48:40 <pikhq> Yes, but it would be doable.
02:48:40 <zzo38> tswett: Well, I don't want to only target any specific group of FPGAs; anyways I want it to work with ASIC too, and also with simulation.
02:48:49 * pikhq has done Church numerals in C. :)
02:48:56 <ais523> zzo38: you shouldn't have problems if you stick to the synthesizable subset of standard Verilog
02:49:13 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK, then.
02:49:33 <ais523> which is a case of sticking to the circuit elements that exist in all FPGAs
02:49:36 <zzo38> But still, someone told me, that complicated programs will not normally be portable to diferent kind of FPGA.
02:49:38 <ais523> in ASICs you have more freedom
02:49:45 <ais523> and that is true, it's because complicated programs normally use libraries
02:49:52 <Bike> tswett: Would it be? I thought the standard FFI let you marshal Chars?
02:49:58 <ais523> and the libraries are normally written by the FPGA manufacturers and not portable at all
02:50:08 <ais523> also they're normally only shipped in encrypted binary form
02:50:24 <tswett> I suppose really, all I'm getting at is "let's take C and pile features on top of it until it's Haskell".
02:50:44 <ais523> zzo38: if you haven't seen it already, there's http://opencores.org/ which is an attempt to make open-source libraries for FPGAs
02:50:44 <Bike> C is pretty strict.
02:50:48 -!- ludamad has joined.
02:51:09 <pikhq> Bike: Trust me, you can do lambda in C. Which means if you're insane you can do thunks in C.
02:51:11 <ais523> also aiming for ASICs, but nobody in the open-source hardware commnity can afford those yet
02:51:20 <pikhq> Which means if you're freaking *crazy* you can get laziness.
02:51:22 <Bike> Maybe you could do some recursive parametric types through truly sad preprocessor abuse.
02:51:32 <ais523> pikhq: see any Unlambda interp in C
02:51:37 * pikhq has done all that, but not touched parametric types
02:51:46 <tswett> Forth is a good programming language if you don't need to do anything that involves data.
02:51:50 <pikhq> ais523: I did a Lazy K interp in C.
02:51:52 -!- ludamad has left ("Leaving").
02:52:32 <zzo38> ais523: Those are a few of the reasons why I don't want to be forced to use such libraries; however, if their function is known well enough, then I would hope that a way to represent the function in standard Verilog and then write a separate program, the same open-source program for all FPGA/ASIC, which takes a description and a Verilog program and modifies it to work better with the FPGA description given.
02:52:53 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know if there are any open-source FPGA synthesizers
02:53:06 <ais523> it's not theoretically impossible for one to be written, but the manufacturers have no interest in making it easy to do so
02:53:27 <zzo38> ais523: I think there are open-source FPGA synthesizers but they cannot generate FPGA bitcodes
02:53:41 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen OpenCores. However, I have still seen, the Amber CPU core (an ARM2 compatible core), says it is for Xilinx Spartan 6 only.
02:53:58 <ais523> zzo38: that would be to do with what features of the chip it used, most likely
02:53:59 <tromp_> pure lazy lambda can be done in 25 lines of C :)
02:54:36 <tswett> Come to think of it, I don't think it would be extremely difficult to turn Haskell into C++ or something.
02:54:37 <zzo38> ais523: I suppose, but I would like to be able to convert it into a portable Verilog code, so that it can work in Xilinx 7-series, and non-Xilinx, too.
02:54:46 <tswett> So I guess I'm going to write all my Haskell in C++ from now on.
02:55:07 <ais523> zzo38: I always aim to write portable VHDL and Verilog, except when writing drivers for specific hardware
02:55:22 <ais523> and even then, the only nonportability is usually due to assuming the existence of certain pins
02:56:10 <ais523> which is kind-of necessary if you're interfacing with hardware
02:56:26 <ais523> normally when I want to use a particular feature of an FPGA, I write code which the synthesizers will understand as trying to use that feature
02:56:28 <zzo38> The program I was making suggestion of, though, would be, first it does general-purpose optimization (I think Icarus Verilog does this), and then output another Verilog program which is mostly the same as the optimized one except for certain features programmed to optimize for the FPGA description (and the delay commands could be used for further optimization?)
02:56:36 <zzo38> ais523: What pins, specifically?
02:56:53 <ais523> zzo38: whatever pins are used by the hardware I'm interfacing with
02:57:29 <zzo38> ais523: Can you be more specific?
02:57:32 <ais523> the Verity standard library actually contains some apparently useless code, just so that Quartus II (Altera's compiler) will infer it correctly
02:57:43 <ais523> zzo38: say I want to write code to output numbers on a 7-segment display
02:57:53 <ais523> I assume that the hardware has 7 pins that are actually connected to the segments of such a display
02:58:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
02:58:24 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:58:28 <zzo38> But such things seems like it is not specific to the FPGA; it seems like specific to the external hardware, isn't it?
02:58:53 <ais523> but you need to give the signals names that depend on the FPGA toolchain
02:59:00 <ais523> either that, or connect them to pins yourself
02:59:17 <ais523> the reason we gave up on Xilinx and moved to Altera was that Xilinx wouldn't give us enough information to connect the signals to pins manually
02:59:32 <ais523> whereas Altera both gave us the information we needed, and also a tool that did it automatically :)
03:00:32 <zzo38> However what I know about Xilinx is that for small and medium FPGAs, you don't have to pay (but you still have to register) to use their software, and it is capable of running on a VM running RedHat (someone also said it works on a VM running Ubuntu), and doesn't expire.
03:01:12 <zzo38> If Xilinx won't do what you said, how can I use Amber on Altera or others?
03:01:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:02:46 <ais523> after spending two weeks trying to get the Xilinx toolchain to work, then calling in someone who'd used it before, then them having phoned up some friends they had at Xilinx and asking for help, and it still not working
03:02:50 <ais523> we gave up and moved onto Altera
03:03:18 <kmc> i'm alive, i'm alive, oh i'm alive, and how I know it! but for chips and for freedom I could die.
03:07:10 <zzo38> Open-source FPGA would solve these problems, but since it doesn't exist, I was thinking to make an alternative solution, where a program finds things in a Verilog program which use features of FPGA and change them to use features of other FPGA, and it also mean optimization for example if there are race conditions it can assume it doesn't care, and optimize based on that.
03:09:04 <ais523> zzo38: what did you think of my code that's designed to simulate your register-driven-by-two-clocks example?
03:09:12 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:09:14 <ais523> <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q[0:1]=R[0:1]+1; always@(posedge Y) R[0:1]=Q[0:1]+1; assign Z=(Q-R)[1]
03:09:23 <ais523> I'm not sure the syntax is correct, but if it isn't, it's likely fixable
03:09:47 <ais523> that might be an interesting translation to do in a compiler
03:10:06 <ais523> I've actually wondered about a VHDL/Verilog selfcompiler that translates as much of the language as possible into the synthesizable subset
03:10:07 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:10:07 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
03:10:07 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:10:10 <ais523> using tricks like that
03:10:35 <ais523> come to think of it, that can be optimized
03:10:58 <ais523> always@(posedge X) Q=R; always@(posedge Y) R=~Q; assign Z=Q^R
03:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: I have not thought much about this code yet, but I will print it out so that I can think about it later
03:12:43 <ais523> the idea is that you have two registers, each driven by a different clock
03:12:58 <ais523> and perform logical operations on them in order to combine the two clock signals
03:14:33 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I did mean something like the compiler that translates as much of the language as possible into the synthesizable subset, but also make things into whatever is needed to work for the target FPGA even if the input file is a generic/portable file instead of vendor-specific.
03:15:02 <ais523> zzo38: the main thing I've discovered about targeting FPGAs is that the compilers tend to be sensitive to details you wouldn't think would matter
03:15:27 <zzo38> What kind of details?
03:15:51 <ais523> in one case, I had to create a temporary register to hold the output of a cast to unsigned, and cache it to one cycle, in VHDL
03:16:03 <ais523> even though the cast is a no-op in hardware
03:16:39 <ais523> if I didn't, then it couldn't correctly use the result of the cache as an index into an array; it synthesized the code, but simulated the array using registers instead of using the FPGA's block memory
03:17:02 <ais523> likewise, when reading from memory, I had to read from it every cycle, it didn't like reading from it only conditionally
03:17:14 <ais523> which is weird because a conditional read is implemented in hardware as always reading, then storing the read value conditionally
03:19:57 <zzo38> That is one reason why there should be the program to automatically convert these things to make it working
03:20:13 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:20:31 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
03:26:33 <zzo38> Maybe they will make Icarus Verilog to do such things?
03:31:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
03:38:43 <zzo38> If you know any such things can you help Icarus Verilog development team?
03:44:31 <ais523> I downloaded Icarus, but have not used it for anything serious
03:44:39 <ais523> sometimes I use it to compile Verilog to VHDL so I can read it ;)
03:46:51 <zzo38> I suppose that is one use of it.
04:03:07 <zzo38> I made up the Magic: the Gathering card: All non-legendary permanents have cumulative upkeep--double your life total. At the beginning of each player's first main phase, if that player's life total exceeds one million, that player loses the game.
04:05:56 * pikhq makes a complementary card
04:06:02 <ais523> zzo38: it's "precombat main phase" with current templating
04:06:10 <pikhq> All legendart permanents have "if you would lose the game, win the game."
04:06:11 <ais523> also cumulative upkeep needs reminder text
04:06:26 <ais523> pikhq: that would cause a lot of draws
04:06:30 <ais523> if both players had one
04:06:32 <pikhq> Yes, yes it would.
04:06:44 <ais523> via the infinite loop rule
04:07:24 <ais523> if it's worded as a replacement effect: "if you would lose the game, you win the game instead", I'm not 100% sure what happens
04:07:43 <ais523> it depends on whether the the-same-effect-can't-be-replaced-multiple-times rule would trigger
04:07:48 <ais523> if it does, the replacements would cancel each other out
04:08:07 <pikhq> "If you would lose the game, play a subgame with your library as the deck."
04:08:25 <pikhq> Bah, who needs that to do anything.
04:08:38 <ais523> incidentally, the DCI banned sharharazad because someone thought up an exploit where you'd use it recursively to stall out the time in the round
04:08:43 <ais523> nobody actually tried to use it
04:08:50 <pikhq> Keeping in mind that you can wish for cards in the supergame.
04:08:56 <ais523> but it's one of those theoretical thing that it'd make sense to shut off
04:09:00 <ais523> and actually you can't any more, they changed the rule
04:09:20 <ais523> wishes only work on sideboards nowadays
04:09:27 <pikhq> That's tournament rules.
04:09:36 <pikhq> That's not in the comprehensive rules at all.
04:09:53 <ais523> but they don't work on exiled cards or supergame cards even in the comp rules, I think
04:09:57 <ais523> just on other cards in your collection
04:09:59 <pikhq> The tournament rules basically patch the rules in this case to define "cards you own outside the game" to mean your sideboard.
04:10:12 <pikhq> ais523: They do work on supergame cards, I've checked.
04:10:13 <ais523> Sgeo: "place a card with property X from outside the game into your hand. exile this card"
04:10:17 <pikhq> They do not work on *exiled* cards.
04:10:31 <pikhq> Well, they do work on cards in the exile zone in a supergame.
04:10:34 <zzo38> Really I think it would make more sense for the "cards you own outside the game" to mean your sideboard in the standard rules, rather than patching the rules in klugy ways like that.
04:10:41 <ais523> incidentally, I think the original reason for the exile was so that you wouldn't accidentally forget to put the cards back in your sideboard
04:10:46 <zzo38> Actually I think most of the rules are too klugy.
04:10:57 <pikhq> They also work on cards on the stack in a supergame.
04:11:23 <zzo38> Do they work only on face-up cards in a supergame, or face-down cards too?
04:11:33 <pikhq> They work on face-down cards too.
04:11:41 <ais523> I think all that matters is who owns the card, right?
04:11:48 <ais523> hmm, if you aim it at a face-down card, do you have to reveal it?
04:11:56 <ais523> some sort of tournament rule about not being able to cheat involving morphs
04:12:05 <pikhq> Actually, definitely.
04:12:08 <pikhq> It's changing zones. :D
04:12:09 <ais523> where face-down cards have to be revealed whenever they'd no longer be face-down and in play
04:12:30 <ais523> or, well, no longer in play
04:12:30 <pikhq> The supergame rules clearly state you have to reveal the card when it leaves the battlefield.
04:12:40 <ais523> if it's face-up it's effectively in play anyway
04:12:46 <ais523> *effectively revealed anyway
04:12:49 <pikhq> (and yes, it counts as leaving the battlefield)
04:12:52 <ais523> and I don't think there are any cards with a reveal trigger
04:13:17 <ais523> there's that one card in Unhinged that triggers on being read, but that isn't the same
04:13:37 <pikhq> Also fun: removing a card from the stack in this manner is an amazingly silly counterspell.
04:14:10 <ais523> pikhq: well, only being able to target cards you own is quite the drawback on a counterspell
04:14:24 <pikhq> It's an *amazingly* silly one.
04:14:32 <ais523> it's theoretically possible it could be useful
04:14:36 <ais523> but not much more than that
04:14:45 <zzo38> Still, I suppose it may occasionally be useful to counter your own spells in a few cases
04:14:48 <ais523> there are a few spells that steal control of spells on the stack, but they're rare and hardly played
04:14:59 <zzo38> Especially if your opponent has modified the target or something like that
04:15:13 <ais523> most of the effects both steal control and modify the target
04:15:16 <ais523> rather than one or the other
04:15:26 <pikhq> You still own the card though.
04:15:35 <pikhq> We're dealing with *ownership*, not control.
04:15:57 <ais523> I was going on the basis that it'd be more useful to counter a spell, if you didn't control it
04:16:24 <pikhq> Also fun, and more potentially useful: Conspiracy works on all cards you own.
04:16:27 <ais523> I have seen decent players counter their own spell, but that's because they were trying to build High Tide (a well-known Legacy combo deck) in Standard
04:16:36 <pikhq> And there's that one Eldrazi that wishes for any number of Eldrazi.
04:16:47 <ais523> and the only legal replacement for Time Spiral is Rewind
04:17:06 <ais523> pikhq: there's someone on Gatherer who wants to, some day, use that card to win using Battle of Wits in Commander
04:17:15 <ais523> they've had the combo in their deck forever but never pulled it off
04:17:31 <ais523> and 167 common Eldrazi to hand, just in case
04:17:38 <zzo38> Do you ever play Limited format?
04:17:55 <ais523> I used to, but I stopped playing Limited at much the same time I stopped playing Constructed
04:18:27 <zzo38> I only play Limited format.
04:18:53 <ais523> pikhq: my most memorable event from a game I watched live was some sort of crazy mill versus midrange matchup in constructed
04:18:59 <zzo38> I won't mind if the rules are made to be specifically for Limited.
04:19:13 <ais523> where the race got very close, and the midrange player won with an empty library and a "draw a card" trigger on the stack
04:19:34 <zzo38> I read that some sets had cards which were banned before the set came out. I suppose those cards are designed to be used with Limited only?
04:21:35 <ais523> my most memorable event from a tournament I've played was in a Time Spiral draft, where I won with Coalition Victory, twice in the same tournament
04:21:35 <zzo38> Do you think Magic: the Gathering rules are very klugy?
04:21:35 <ais523> each time with at least one of each basic land, and at least one monocolored creature of each color
04:21:35 <ais523> zzo38: sometimes they fix things
04:21:35 <ais523> like getting rid of substance in favour of "at the beginning of the cleanup step2
04:21:35 <zzo38> ais523: They tend to make them even more klugy though
04:21:35 <ais523> but in general they seem to either have unnecessary complex rules, or cards, or both
04:21:35 <zzo38> Yes, in favour of "at the beginning of the cleanup step..." is better, I think; still, I don't mean rules such as substance.
04:21:35 <pikhq> ais523: I just kinda wish they had printed a card with substance as a joke.
04:21:44 <zzo38> Substance is a klugy feature of the cards that use them, not really a klugy rule, I think.
04:21:52 <pikhq> "Worse Bear. Substance. 2/2"
04:21:59 <ais523> pikhq: the fix I'd have liked would be to define substance as "Substance is a static ability. When a card loses substance, its controller sacrifices it."
04:22:02 <pikhq> Strictly worse than Grizzly Bears.
04:22:10 <ais523> and the reminder text would be "Substance (when CARDNAME loses substance, sacrifice it)."
04:22:58 <ais523> or, in its original context, "If you play CARDNAME when you couldn't play a sorcery, it gains substance until end of turn. (When it loses substance, sacrifice it.)"
04:23:10 <zzo38> One rule I don't like is the state-based effects that make creatures unable to be attached to anything.
04:23:41 <ais523> pikhq: it's possible to come up with situations where it's more useful than Runeclaw Bear
04:23:55 <ais523> although admittedly they mostly involve pumping the Runeclaw Bear and then doing something that hurts creatures with higher power
04:24:12 * pikhq declares "screw Runeclaw"
04:24:27 <pikhq> We *really* needed a functional reprint of Grizzly?
04:24:29 <ais523> yeah but grizzly bears can't be a creature because there are two of them </creative team>
04:24:50 <ais523> they decided that something that iconic needed flavour in line with modern design
04:25:25 <ais523> same reason they don't like doing walls any more
04:25:38 <ais523> well, not exactly the same, but similar
04:25:43 <zzo38> I disagree with much of their decisions.
04:25:58 <zzo38> I also don't like the rule that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out
04:26:19 <ais523> zzo38: that was designed to make it easier to track things when people were playing lorwyn/shadowmoor constructed
04:26:35 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know; still, I would have done it differently such as using two colors of countres
04:26:41 <ais523> only they put it into the future sight rules update to confuse people
04:26:51 <ais523> I think their idea was that people might not have two colors of counters
04:27:10 <pikhq> Man, Future Sight.
04:27:19 <zzo38> In my opinion, their rules are not mathematically elegant enough!
04:28:02 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:28:27 <pikhq> Steamflogger Boss.
04:28:34 <pikhq> "Assemble" *still* has no meaning.
04:28:40 <pikhq> Nor are there any contraptions.
04:28:53 <ais523> pikhq: haha, I've been thinking about steamflogger boss from the angle of "what would the rules have to look like for steamflogger boss to be correctly templated"
04:29:17 <ais523> I've come to such interesting conclusions as "protection probably works against assembly", and "assembly most likely happens in the combat step or it wouldn't be templated like that"
04:29:53 <ais523> but it was clearly added as a joke (the way to tell that is that the card is pretty good in limited even if you ignore the assemble line as meaningless, which it is)
04:30:12 <ais523> I'm actually really upset that the reminder text on Tarmogoyf /wasn't/ a joke, I'm upset about planeswalkers
04:30:21 <ais523> they didn't directly drive me from Magic, but they were a contributing factor
04:30:29 <ais523> (fwiw, Lorwyn was the set that drove me away from Magic)
04:30:58 <zzo38> I don't like the implementation of planeswalkers either, nor do I like the name "planeswalkers" (by confusion with "plainswalk")
04:31:10 <pikhq> Yeah, Planeswalkers are kinda lame.
04:31:52 <ais523> zzo38: actually the reason plainswalk is so rarely used is to prevent it being muddled with planeswalkers (which existed in flavour since alpha, but only got cards in lorwyn)
04:32:19 <ais523> pikhq: my main concrete complaint is that they indirectly made combo more degenerate
04:32:27 * pikhq wants Nicole Bolas, Plains
04:32:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I think they are klugy due to flavour often too
04:32:30 <ais523> combo decks used to have to defend while they were assembling their combo, but if you're capable of defending while building something up, why not use a planeswalker insetad?
04:32:48 <zzo38> The idea is not bad though. I would have done it like this: There is a type "Playercard" which, when in play, is a player as well as an object. Its life total is equal to the number of life counters it has. It is the teammate of its controller. It does not normally get a turn. If it wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
04:33:02 <ais523> and as such, the only combo decks that survived are the degenerate noninteractive ones based on speed rather than defending
04:33:31 <ais523> pikhq: did you see what happened to Modern recently, btw?
04:33:57 <pikhq> I've not been following it too much of late.
04:34:06 <zzo38> There could be a shortcut for a new kind of activated ability which says "+1:" or "-3:" or whatever to add/remove that many life counters and tap in order to use the activated ability, and it can only be used as a sorcery. This kind of ability should be given a name so that other effects can refer to it.
04:34:20 <ais523> basically, they recently banned Bloodbraid Elf (and a few other cards, but that's the relevant one for this), because they thought the dominating deck, Jund, was winning too much
04:34:27 <ais523> so they banned a card that Jund was good at using and other decks didn't use
04:34:35 <zzo38> I also don't like that they removed mana burn. Mana burn has a strategic use.
04:34:37 <ais523> quite a few people were upset about that reason for banning
04:34:46 <ais523> anyway, the new best deck is Eggs
04:34:49 <pikhq> zzo38: It was also very nicely flavorful.
04:35:05 <ais523> and it's a combo deck that's mostly non-interactive (unless the opponent adds cards like Seal of Fire to help counter it)
04:35:10 <ais523> and takes /ages/ to go off
04:35:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, but I am not worrying about flavor *at all*.
04:35:23 <ais523> and recently, someone played it against Brian Kibler (one of the top players), played the combo
04:35:32 <ais523> and he just walked off to go to the toilet as they were playing the combo
04:35:39 <ais523> and they were still going when he came back
04:35:39 <zzo38> What I do like is changing "removed from game" zone to "exile" zone, since it is actually still a part of the game.
04:36:09 <pikhq> That was a good change.
04:36:16 <ais523> so yeah, basically the new best deck is one that ruins tournament timing
04:36:27 <zzo38> Yes, I agree; I do like the change of the name of this zone.
04:36:32 <ais523> giving 5 extra turns hurts when a single turn can take half an hour even if the players are playing as fast as possible
04:36:40 <ais523> and I think everyone likes the change to "exile"; I know I do
04:36:52 <ais523> I'm dubious about "battlefield", though, because it makes the cards so much longer than the old wording
04:37:35 <zzo38> ais523: I too am dubious about "battlefield". It doesn't seem very good to me. Maybe "in play" isn't so good either; my other suggestion is "active zone" or "permanent zone", but they may be a bit confusing too.
04:37:53 <zzo38> (I would have changed the name of the other zones too, but they aren't as important. They are: "draw pile" instead of "library", and "discard pile" instead of "graveyard".)
04:38:43 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the state-based effects rules that make creatures not attached to anything?
04:38:55 <zzo38> I don't happen to like those state-based effects.
04:39:58 * pikhq notes that having a backwards-compatible PS3 is pretty nice.
04:40:15 <ais523> zzo38: presumably they're needed to resolve a situation that rarely comes up
04:42:30 <ais523> one thing that confuses me more is the rule that spells can't be made to target themselves
04:42:30 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure which problem that solves
04:42:30 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, but they removed that feature, as well as the other feature which they marketed. Now both of the important features are gone.
04:42:30 <ais523> although I guess it's similar to the idea of preventing enchantments enchanting themselves
04:42:31 <pikhq> zzo38: My PS3 is a BC one.
04:42:31 <ais523> (it /is/ possible to get enchantments to enchant each other in a loop, though, and that doesn't cause any problems)
04:42:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, and I do not think it is a problem to make such a loop.
04:42:31 <ais523> zzo38: it's also possible to get a permanent with no types, and that's not a problem either
04:42:31 <zzo38> What I meant was the rule that an Aura that is also a creature is discarded. I think that rule is really klugy and stupid; I think it should be allowed!
04:42:31 <ais523> it acts much like an enchantment or artifact would
04:42:31 <ais523> without being an enchantment/artifact
04:42:31 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that should be OK too, to have a permanent with no types.
04:43:10 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to have a permanent that's just a tribal
04:43:20 <zzo38> I also think the rule that a land is not played as its other card type is not a very good rule to have. If it has no mana cost you cannot play it as the other card type anyways, otherwise you might be able to if that rule did not exist, and if you do so, it uses the stack.
04:43:33 <ais523> that might be a contradiction in the rules
04:45:36 <zzo38> There is also a state-baesd effect that makes token cease to exist if out of play. I don't like that rule, and would rather have the token cease to exist right away due to lacking initial state. (This also means tokens can be on the stack and enter play just fine; and I think copies of spells ought to be tokens too)
04:48:28 <ais523> zzo38: that would break all the cards which trigger on tokens going from play to the graveyard
04:49:46 <zzo38> ais523: Actually, according to what I was thinking, it wouldn't. It would still trigger, but there would be no object to do. The object still moves, but as part of the object moving, a new object is created and this step is simply skipped.
04:50:20 <ais523> zzo38: well, there are lots of cards that say "whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play" or the like, those work on tokens
04:50:39 <ais523> also, there are commonly used tricks like flickering enemy tokens to get rid of them permanently
04:50:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, what I am thinking, I would intend, those to still work. Flickering tokens to get rid of them permanently would still work too.
04:56:28 <zzo38> Mostly due to them changing the rules all the time and making new cards, they keep changing things to make it intending to work, which makes it really klugy.
04:56:50 <zzo38> Therefore, make up another game, make up the mathematically elegant version of the rules.
05:02:07 <zzo38> Another rule is that losing due to unable to draw a card is a state-based effect. I think it ought to be immediate instead, as part of the meaning of "draw a card". (This means that if you have "Pay 1 life: Target player draws a card." that even if you have 1 life remaining and opponent has no cards, you can still win. I don't know if any such situation exists with existing cards; do you know?)
05:03:07 <pikhq> That wouldn't work.
05:03:15 <pikhq> The life payment is a cost.
05:03:25 <zzo38> O, yes, you are correct. I missed that.
05:03:32 <pikhq> You pay that cost to put the "Target player draws a card" ability on the stack, so...
05:03:44 <zzo38> Maybe like this it might work: "Pay 1 life: A player of your choice draws a card. Add {1} to your mana pool." Would that work?
05:03:59 <pikhq> That'd give it the right speed, yeah.
05:16:20 <ais523> yeah, you have to remove the "target" or it isn't a mana ability any more
05:28:48 <zzo38> Is "{T}: Add {0} to your mana pool." a mana ability, or not?
05:31:20 <ais523> I think it isn't, because it doesn't actually add mana to a mana pool
05:39:16 -!- augur has joined.
05:41:25 <augur> when the oculus rift comes out, 3D will be infinitely more important that it is now
05:41:29 <augur> why not a 3d esolang?
05:41:45 <zzo38> I think there are some esolangs in 3D, and even some in 4D
05:42:06 <augur> but are they interesting?
05:45:51 <pikhq> ais523: "{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. Remove {1} from your mana pool."
05:46:10 <ais523> pikhq: I bet there's some crazy way to break that :)
05:46:13 <pikhq> Or, hell. "{1}: Add {1} to your mana pool."
05:46:33 <ais523> actually, I know zzo38 is upset about the removal of mana burn
05:46:38 <pikhq> ais523: Well, there is a crazy way to make it *slightly useful*.
05:46:40 <ais523> but IMO they should have gone further and removed the mana pool altogether
05:46:44 <pikhq> Stick it on a snow permanent.
05:46:58 <ais523> pikhq: Candelabra of Tawnos is one of the most expensive cards around
05:47:13 <ais523> and it's just "{X}, {T}: Untap X target lands"
05:47:24 <pikhq> That is broken in very subtle ways.
05:47:57 <ais523> well, if you're playing High Tide anyway…
05:48:53 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
06:19:30 -!- btiffin has joined.
06:21:48 <btiffin> saw pbrain.c and had to call it from OpenCOBOL, extending it to cbrain. Takes numbers among other bloats. Posting on Discussion, OpenCOBOL project on SourceForge.
06:26:36 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
07:01:06 -!- monqy has joined.
07:11:39 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving).
07:36:33 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:36:43 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
07:37:09 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
07:37:43 <shachaf> Hmm, 0xC2 is a magic UTF-8 prefix.
07:39:04 -!- heroux has joined.
07:39:56 <shachaf> monqy: so why didn't you `smlist
07:40:10 <shachaf> who knows how long "i've been deprived'"
07:40:32 -!- sivoais has quit (Quit: leaving).
07:41:03 <monqy> i thought someone removed the lists
07:41:20 -!- sivoais has joined.
07:42:29 <shachaf> well i removed the someone
07:43:43 <shachaf> monqy: can you say a bit of "monqy "wisdom""
07:48:48 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
07:49:24 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
07:50:14 -!- heroux has joined.
07:51:14 <monqy> if i said no would that be 'paradoxical'
07:51:41 <shachaf> monqy: tell me this: is there any paradox better than curry's paradox
07:51:59 <monqy> curry's paradox is pretty dang good
07:52:40 <shachaf> if there was a better paradox it would have to be
07:53:07 <monqy> could just be a little bit better it'd still be better but just a little bit probably not worth the bother
07:53:54 <shachaf> well i didn't say it would be a lot better
07:54:03 <shachaf> just that better than "pretty dang good" is "pretty dang better"
07:54:16 <shachaf> im not good at comapring.........
07:57:43 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:00:14 <Taneb> Today's Freefall is great!
08:01:09 <shachaf> monqy: did i ask you about modal logic yet
08:06:15 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:06:32 <btiffin> I have an esolang, based on pbrain, developed for embedding in COBOL. Way fun.
08:09:26 <btiffin> I take it, this is a place to brag about such things? Or is it to be played all humble 'n shit? ;-)
08:11:42 <zzo38> Did you make a description on the esolang wiki?
08:12:10 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
08:13:15 <btiffin> Not yet. 4am, and just posting to a few forums so far.
08:17:31 <btiffin> cbrain was fun. cbrain, cbrain run. .cb files, so the repl gets to terminate with CB slang, We gone. I broke BF and added numbers, as the intent is to write something semi useful and add easier access to bit fields and xor etc, from COBOL.
08:35:22 -!- hagb4rdoux has quit (Quit: hagb4rdoux).
08:44:09 <ais523> making languages based on BF is usually a bad idea
08:45:29 <Lymia> With no discreet time steps, cells, or cell values.
08:45:45 <zzo38> How would that work?
08:45:50 <Lymia> I'm not entirely sure!
08:46:15 <Lymia> Would likely need a continuous version of a BF program, somehow. (formulated as an equation), and something to bind it together
08:48:20 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:49:44 -!- heroux has joined.
08:53:35 <zzo38> An idea I have is "Esoteric Verilog" which adds such things as quantum computing, halting oracles, more values of logic which do various strange things, INTERCAL's ABSTAIN, REINSTATE, IGNORE, REMEMBER, bit interleave, mechanical components, time travel, command for demons in your nose, etc
08:54:20 <ais523> Lymia: what you do is you average cells with nearby cells to some extent, sort-of like a delay line
08:54:30 <ais523> and use single bits, 1 or 0 or values in between due to averaging
08:54:47 <zzo38> (I know it is impossible both in hardware and in software, and possibly some of it may be impossible even in mathematics)
08:54:56 <ais523> then the [] command both loops and doesn't loop, depending on the value, both branches are calculated and the results averaged depending on the value
08:55:09 <ais523> so if you do [] on a 0.2, the inside of the loop contributes 0.2 to the tape, the outside contributes 0.8
08:55:16 <zzo38> (O, reversible computing too, I forgot that one)
08:55:24 <ais523> to make it properly continuous, < and > should move approximately one element, not exactly one element
08:55:46 <ais523> I guess you'd have to have some threads which were busy going around reshaping to make it work
08:56:51 <ais523> btw, this'd be a nightmare to implement due to combinatorial explosion
08:56:57 <ais523> the threads all share a tape
08:57:05 <ais523> so you could simply keep track of the relative strengths of the various IPs
08:57:09 <ais523> and add them together as an optimization
08:57:27 <ais523> that way you only have to maintain one float for each command in the input program, that should be doable
08:59:32 <Lymia> ais523, I was thinking
08:59:35 <Lymia> Take BFJoust syntax
08:59:41 <Lymia> And let x be a floating point value
09:00:43 <Lymia> The local conclusion of this is
09:00:45 <Lymia> "Continuous BF Joust"
09:00:50 <ais523> I guess it'd be an easy way to get non-integers on the tape
09:01:28 <ais523> anyway, this "BF2K" concept is at least as interesting as Befunge2K (which I haven't written up yet, but it's basically Befunge 98 except that every command but # and ; has an x% chance of doing nothing)
09:02:23 <ais523> just saw an account creation, was worried it was a spambot
09:02:37 <ais523> having new users not be spambots is good, saves me the effort of having to clean up after them
09:03:18 <Lymia> I wonder how continuous BF Joust would work out
09:03:37 -!- ais523 has quit.
09:03:44 <Lymia> The goal is to set the opponent's flag to (-0.5, 0.5) for 2.0 time steps
09:12:10 <btiffin> cbrain info posted to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain
09:13:49 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:20:38 <zzo38> btiffin: OK, thanks for posting information
09:22:01 <btiffin> Can I brag now? :-) This is fun.
09:23:25 <btiffin> .cb files, 10-4 good buddy speak?
09:23:26 <FireFly> Lymia: next up, do continuous befunge
09:25:36 <btiffin> COBOL now embeds Shakespeare, beatnik, pbrain and cbrain. Is there a way to filter esolangs.org by language of implementation? C in particular, it being such a search friendly letter?
09:28:25 <btiffin> any human hints? (he asked, all smiley and hopeful)
09:29:08 <Lymia> Continuous Brainfuck...
09:29:36 <Lymia> [] take up 0 time steps each. An empty, or infinitesimal inner loop is an error.
09:30:13 <Lymia> That, or they take 1.0 time step, and treat the value as the average during that time....
09:30:16 <Lymia> IDK which is more BF-like
10:04:33 -!- nooodl has joined.
10:05:48 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:07:26 -!- heroux has joined.
10:19:27 -!- btiffin has left.
10:26:49 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:31:23 -!- heroux has joined.
10:44:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:44:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:44:48 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
10:44:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:52:25 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
10:59:00 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:09:06 -!- carado has joined.
11:12:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:13:56 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:15:39 -!- heroux has joined.
11:18:49 -!- oleg has joined.
11:19:26 -!- oleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:25:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:25:34 -!- augur has joined.
11:29:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:37:14 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
11:44:59 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
11:45:11 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:46:54 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:49:42 -!- carado has joined.
11:56:25 -!- augur has joined.
12:02:30 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:03:04 -!- sivoais has joined.
12:10:04 <FreeFull> http://ghc.io/ This is neat, although the help and about links don't seem to work
12:10:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:16:56 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined.
12:23:36 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:25:18 -!- heroux has joined.
12:36:31 -!- boily has joined.
12:36:44 -!- metasepia has joined.
12:42:29 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
12:44:13 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:44:40 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:45:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:46:05 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:46:14 -!- heroux has joined.
13:08:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:12:36 -!- Taneb has joined.
13:21:56 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:28:21 -!- Koen_ has joined.
13:31:13 <kmc> FreeFull: i wonder if they have any sandboxing beyond Safe Haskell
13:31:24 <kmc> at this stage i really would not trust Safe Haskell by itself
13:31:26 <kmc> defense in depth, yo
13:40:40 -!- nooodl has joined.
13:43:24 <FreeFull> kmc: I'm going to try the Ix thing
13:44:01 <FreeFull> Oh, apparently you can't import Data.Array
13:44:51 -!- carado has joined.
13:45:33 <kmc> which thing is that?
13:46:43 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:48:12 -!- heroux has joined.
13:49:45 <boily> is it possible to remove your own entries from bfjoust?
13:51:22 <Gregor> The conventional way is just to replace them with suiciders.
13:51:26 <Taneb> Replace the program with < or something similar
13:52:43 <ThatOtherPerson> !bfjoust first_time_test_random_characters >>><>>++++.->><>>><><>.<><.>++>-
13:52:53 <boily> !bfjoust wooden_ <
13:52:54 <EgoBot> Score for ThatOtherPerson_first_time_test_random_characters: 0.1
13:52:56 <EgoBot> Score for boily_wooden_: 0.0
13:53:59 <FreeFull> kmc: Creating your own instance of Ix which always returns true for the bounds check
13:57:56 <boily> FreeFull: isn't that like wilfully destroying bound-checking to have Haskell behave like C, and scrozzle random memory values?
14:04:59 <FreeFull> boily: The whole point is that Data.Array is meant to be safe
14:13:36 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:14:24 <elliott> ghc does extra checks with Ix, aiui
14:14:24 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:15:55 <boily> I'm trying to define an Evil instance of Ix, but so far no segfaults, no inconsistent behaviour.
14:16:06 <boily> damn you Haskell, for being conceptually and practically sound!
14:16:16 <elliott> iirc it didn't use to do these checks
14:16:23 <elliott> and the report allows skipping them
14:18:58 -!- Halite has joined.
14:23:24 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:23:34 <kmc> FreeFull: clever
14:23:56 <kmc> boily: yeah FreeFull was talking about ways to circumvent the type system in order to compromise a remote code execution service
14:24:21 <kmc> i wouldn't call GHC Haskell "sound" in this way; there are many many ways to bypass the type system
14:24:27 <kmc> SafeHaskell tries to forbid them one by one
14:24:56 -!- heroux has joined.
14:25:02 <kmc> but also, the GHC RTS is a 50,000 line multithreaded C / assembly program
14:25:14 <kmc> they've found nasty bugs in the past and there will be more
14:25:27 <Halite> I'd like to create a programming language ontop of JS
14:25:52 <monqy> a language on top of JS? what do you mean
14:25:56 <kmc> you and the rest of the world
14:25:59 <monqy> embedded language?
14:26:06 <monqy> or something that compiles to JS?
14:26:10 <monqy> JS sucks sooo much
14:26:10 <Halite> monqy, a language coded in JS, that takes input and displays output
14:26:28 <Halite> JS is portable - so it can work with both OSes in my dual boot
14:26:34 <monqy> that's a bad reason
14:26:36 <kmc> monqy: i'm starting to think you might not be a fan of JS
14:26:43 <monqy> lots of languages have cross platfrom implemetnations
14:26:49 <kmc> you know what other language is portable? pretty much all of them
14:26:51 <monqy> kmc: i hate javascript more every day
14:26:57 <monqy> it's like a curse??
14:27:04 <monqy> except it's ok because it's javascript
14:27:23 <kmc> a harrowing cautionary tale to be sure
14:27:48 <Halite> yeah whatever, start criticising my reason! I'm fed up of destructive criticism. Make it constructive and I'll take notice!
14:28:00 <kmc> Halite: you didn't ask an actual question yet
14:28:17 <Halite> kmc, that's because I don't have one to ask yet
14:28:23 <Taneb> Halite, there are other cross-platform backends than Javascript
14:28:24 <kmc> glad that's settled then
14:28:31 <Taneb> For instance, Java's JVM
14:28:43 <Taneb> Or you could just compile twice
14:28:45 <kmc> for example C or C++ or C# or Perl or Python or Ruby or god forbid PHP
14:28:46 <Halite> I haven't learnt Java yet
14:28:58 <kmc> Halite: I suggest Python
14:29:01 <Halite> C# is Microsoft's Java
14:29:02 <kmc> it's a great language to know
14:29:14 <kmc> JS is also a great langauge to know
14:29:20 <kmc> I won't discourage you from doing this in JS
14:29:28 <Halite> I know JS but not Python
14:29:56 <monqy> javascript is a lesson in how not to design a language
14:30:04 <kmc> Halite: C# is also just a better language than Java; it has the same concepts as Java, but more of the features you need to use those concepts without hating yourself
14:30:12 <kmc> you can compile and run C# on Linux
14:30:23 <kmc> i don't know if it's "industrial strength" but it works for a personal project anyway
14:30:46 <nooodl> are any languages even well designed
14:30:54 <Halite> kmc, I do know C# but I don't want to compile anything. Javascript is portable without any compiling, because it's embedded in HTML.
14:31:13 <FreeFull> kmc: I think Ruby does OOP better than C#
14:31:17 <monqy> nooodl: it's easier to tell when one is better than another
14:32:28 <nooodl> imagine if you designed a language in a week or two
14:32:35 <nooodl> and then literally everyone on earth uses it
14:33:36 <monqy> javascript took committe many years to design
14:33:41 <monqy> somehow it hasn't gotten any fucking better
14:33:42 <FreeFull> Javascript would be ok if it didn't do a lot of questionable things
14:33:50 <monqy> everything javascript does is questionable
14:34:27 <nooodl> http://ideone.com/jBXjUf "running C# in my browser"
14:36:03 <monqy> i hear at least discrepencies between js implementations have lessened? even ecma is insane though i suggest reading it
14:36:47 <elliott> js committee work has been much more about standardising implementations in practice than changing things hasnt it
14:37:39 <kmc> i'll be the pedantic guy and point out that JavaScript is not always embedded in HTML
14:37:51 <kmc> sometimes it's server side code or embedded in a GTK+ app or embedded in PostgreSQL server
14:37:55 <kmc> don't confuse the language with the platform
14:38:10 <Halite> kmc, but it was designed to be
14:38:41 <kmc> FreeFull: i think picking a language on the basis of which one "does OOP" better is questionable
14:38:49 <kmc> the fact is that nobody is very consistent about what OOP even means
14:38:55 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
14:39:05 <Halite> I think I should code in Haskell
14:39:16 <Halite> I can create a programming language in Haskell
14:39:25 <monqy> what do you mean by create a language in haskell
14:39:29 <kmc> no, you can create a programming language implementation in Haskell
14:40:15 <Halite> but what if I've not defined a language yet at all
14:40:44 <kmc> then the language and implementation evolve at the same time most likely
14:43:00 <Halite> what should I start off on
14:44:06 <monqy> that's my "flesh out your ideas" answer
14:44:09 <monqy> my other answer is
14:44:20 <monqy> "do you have a problem that you want to solve with programming languages"
14:44:28 <monqy> you could make a ``domain specific language``
14:44:37 <monqy> you could even make an ``embedded domain specific language``
14:45:39 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
14:46:29 <Halite> hello constant, write your value to stdout
14:47:41 <Halite> hello constant, return your value so I can calculate constant divided by 0
14:48:22 <Halite> ERROR: Constants can only change values in between run times
14:48:56 <Halite> ERROR: Halite doesn't support mutable constants. Assuming you are a variable.
14:50:09 <Halite> INFO: Halite has recovered from a segmentation fault.
14:51:18 * Halite gives constant away as resource for other programs to use
14:52:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:52:50 * Lymia assigns constant to a write-only variable
14:54:53 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:55:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:55:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:56:32 -!- carado has joined.
14:56:59 -!- heroux has joined.
15:10:28 <Taneb> HackEgo's quicker than usual, which somewhat defeats my point
15:11:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haha: not found
15:11:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: say: not found
15:12:16 <HackEgo> bash: let: =: syntax error: operand expected (error token is "=")
15:12:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:12:43 <monqy> remember what happened last time
15:13:26 <HackEgo> ghc: no input files \ Usage: For basic information, try the `--help' option.
15:14:11 -!- ogrom has joined.
15:24:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
15:27:14 -!- Lymia has left ("Hug~♪").
15:27:17 -!- Lymia has joined.
15:28:43 <Lymia> > let checkLawsOfMath x y = (x - x == 0) && (x - y == x + (-y)) in checkLawsOfMath 1/0 1/(-0)
15:28:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Bool)
15:29:13 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:31:14 <FreeFull> > let checkLawsOfMath x y = ((x - x) == 0) && ((x - y) == (x + (-y))) in checkLawsOfMath (1/0) (1/(-0))
15:31:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:42:49 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:46:08 -!- Bike has joined.
15:46:43 -!- carado has joined.
15:48:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
15:56:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:08:32 <Halite> lambdabot's math laws are bugged
16:17:08 <Halite> > throw "No instance for (GHC.Real..."
16:17:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ERROR'
16:17:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `data'
16:17:53 <monqy> so did you forget what happened last time
16:18:23 <Halite> > parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input 'parse error on input
16:18:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `parse'Not in scope: `input'Syntax error on 'parse
16:18:40 <Bike> well this is going well
16:19:06 <Halite> > let phantom_hoover = 0 in let rdococ = 100 in rdococ > phantom_hoover
16:19:59 <monqy> maybe this will come as a surprise to you given your repeated behavior but
16:20:05 <monqy> people don't like it when you spam bot nonsense
16:20:40 <Halite> I can't really help it for a long time
16:20:46 <monqy> remember how you got banned from #haskell
16:22:25 <Halite> I thought I was banned forever
16:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Halite, the solution to this is really quite simple: before doing any bot command, put a /msg <bot> before it.
16:28:21 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:28:39 -!- carado has joined.
16:32:15 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:32:26 -!- Frooxius has joined.
16:43:01 <Koen_> is it me or is that guy walking on the water in one of the frames from xkcd's time
16:44:44 <Koen_> http://xkcd.aubronwood.com/
16:45:55 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
16:46:53 <Koen_> computer flipbooks!
16:47:51 <elliott> I kind of liked the latest xkcd; am I going soft
16:48:17 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/FileSys good new esolang
16:49:26 <Lumpio-> er what's the original comic do
16:49:32 <Lumpio-> Change based on time of day?
16:50:27 <Bike> the traditional sense
16:54:40 <Koen_> Lumpio-: I think there's a new frame every half hour or so
16:55:00 <Lumpio-> oh, so it's not just time of day
16:58:21 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:58:33 -!- btiffin has joined.
17:13:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:15:45 -!- hagb4rdoux has joined.
17:31:15 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:35:10 <kmc> elliott: you're going soft hth
17:35:58 <boily> on forums.xkcd.com, the thread about that comic is insane in every sense.
17:36:41 <elliott> kmc: i'll rely on you to continue hatin'
17:37:00 <boily> knowing the senses of insane will drive you insanely sensed.
17:38:38 <kmc> There is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity.
17:40:10 <zzo38> I have read somewhere, a circle with one point missing is called a pathocircle.
17:41:09 -!- yiyus has joined.
17:43:50 <Koen_> is that the weird science-fiction thing from that avengers film?
17:44:07 <kmc> it's a cube in 4D
17:44:44 <kmc> often seen unfolded into 3D like so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tesseract2.svg
17:44:46 <Koen_> why didn't they say so then
17:44:51 <kmc> as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_(Corpus_Hypercubus)
17:45:57 <Bike> i like how serious that first sentence is
17:46:03 <kmc> apparently this was Ayn Rand's favorite painting :/
17:46:09 <Bike> deviates from traditional crucifixions by being totally different
17:46:34 <Bike> christ of saint john on the cross is a better dalicifixion imo
17:47:21 <Koen_> everyone knows that the crux is fiction
17:47:35 <ThatOtherPerson> My current sanity level is therefore represented as a two-dimensional portion of the tesseract.
17:47:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Because of this, I am frequently both sane and insane at the same time.
17:48:22 <kmc> sounds like zzo38
17:49:52 <Bike> something comething complaint something "insane" as medical term is obsolete something fomething
17:51:02 <boily> `learn fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
17:52:10 <Bike> momething popething
17:53:01 <elliott> The most striking change Dali makes from nearly every other crucifixion painting concerns the cross. Instead of painting Christ on a wooden cross, Dali depicts Him upon the net of a hypercube, also known as a tesseract.
17:53:05 <elliott> you literally just said that wikipedia
17:53:36 <elliott> She felt a connection between John Galt’s defiance over his torture in her novel Atlas Shrugged and Dali’s portrayal of Christ in the painting.[6]
17:53:39 <Bike> see, told you.
17:53:49 <kmc> Dogs have a temporal resolution of between 60 and 70 Hz, which explains why many dogs struggle to watch television
17:54:14 <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
17:54:54 <kmc> there may not be a rule in poker, but athletes do get in trouble for not trying hard enough sometimes
17:55:14 <zzo38> I have seen the Christ on a tesseract in some book
17:55:22 <kmc> in the olympics, competitors from the same country will conspire to draw, and such
17:56:05 <elliott> kmc: did you hear about that football game
17:56:15 <elliott> where the other team deliberately scored own goals
17:56:23 <elliott> it was fantastic let me find it
17:56:35 <elliott> Barbados was leading 2-0 until the 83rd minute, when Grenada scored, making it 2-1. Approaching the dying moments, the Barbadians realized they had little chance of scoring past Grenada's mass defense in the time available, so they deliberately scored an own goal to tie the game at 2-2. This would send the game into extra time and give them another half hour to break down the defense. The Grenadians realized what was happening and attempted to score
17:56:44 <elliott> The Grenadians realized what was happening and attempted to score an own goal as well, which would put Barbados back in front by one goal and would eliminate Barbados from the competition.
17:56:48 <Bike> and attempted to score
17:56:48 <elliott> However, the Barbados players started defending their opposition's goal to prevent them from doing this, and during the game's last five minutes, the fans were treated to the incredible sight of Grenada trying to score in either goal while Barbados defended both ends of the pitch.
17:56:53 <elliott> Barbados successfully held off Grenada for the final five minutes, sending the game into extra time. In extra time, Barbados notched the game-winner, and, according to the rules, was awarded a 4-2 victory, which put them through to the next round.[1][2][3]
17:57:21 <Bike> I was going to say that football seems like kind of a letdown after The Play but that, that's amazing
17:57:24 <kmc> wait why didn't barbados just leave the game at 2-1
17:57:37 <Bike> they needed to win by two to continue the tourney
17:57:43 <kmc> football isn't one of those dumb sports where you need to win by 2 is it?
17:58:08 <elliott> Grenada went into the match with a superior goal difference, meaning that Barbados needed to win by two goals to progress to the finals. The trouble was caused by two things. First, unlike most group stages in football competitions, the organizers had deemed that all games must have a winner.
17:58:11 <kmc> if that's the case then they should have extra time if the teams are within 1
17:58:12 <Halite> sounds like it soundedlike it
17:58:13 <elliott> All games drawn over 90 minutes would go to sudden death extra time. Secondly and most importantly, there was an unusual rule which stated that in the event of a game going to sudden death extra time the goal would count double, meaning that the winner would be awarded a two goal victory.
17:58:15 <Bike> it's pretty usual in sports to have how much you win by being a factor, doesn't it
17:58:18 <elliott> sorry for not giving the context!!!
17:58:19 <zzo38> I have read about that football game. Some people called it mad. I call it OK.
17:58:28 <kmc> elliott: ok so they made up stupid rules and it broke
17:58:34 <Bike> Seriously though, y'all know The Play, right.
17:58:44 <elliott> kmc: by broke do you mean went beautifully
17:58:54 <elliott> Bike: i am learning right now
17:58:55 <kmc> Bike: don't remember what it refers to
17:59:07 <zzo38> I think their current tournament score just required them to win by 2.
17:59:10 <Bike> the college football game where they had to dodge tuba players
18:06:53 <btiffin> Feel free to gut'n'paste on the new cbrain entry at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain and put stop to any wrongs I may be committing.
18:08:07 <Bike> huh do people use opencobol? i thought cobol was only used in enterprisey banky things nowadays
18:08:17 <monqy> havent you seen the cobol video
18:08:33 <kmc> is it better than Erlang: The Movie?
18:08:34 <Bike> I haven't seen the cobol video.
18:08:50 <monqy> gosh i forget where the cobol video is
18:08:52 <Bike> cogs i have seen, but, i mean seriously.
18:08:53 <kmc> is it a song that goes 1 2 3 4 5 6 COBOL! 1 2 3 4 5 6 COBOL!
18:09:13 <Bike> "Add1ToCOBOL Open Source Cobol and OpenCobol advocacy site" now we're talking.
18:09:37 <Bike> we're not just cobol. we're cobol + 1
18:09:40 <Bike> that's what it says on their site.
18:09:50 <btiffin> @Bike; I keep the OpenCOBOL FAQ at http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/ So much fun gluing COBOL to C things.
18:10:08 <monqy> http://www.microfocus.com/assets/sol-VC-banner-new.jpg
18:10:10 <Bike> http://add1tocobol.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Screen-shot-2010-11-22-at-3.55.43-PM1.png I think the main problem here is using a non-fixed-width font!!!
18:10:40 <boily> K: Cobalt's metal, hard and shining; \ Cobol's wordy and confining; \ KOBOLDS topple when you strike them; \ Don't feel bad, it's hard to like them. \ -- The Roguelet's ABC
18:10:52 <monqy> i wish i could remember where the cobol video is it's realyl good
18:11:33 <Bike> COBOL has historically been very secretive and low key. Its domain of use being very secretive and low key. COBOL programmers rarely work on systems that would allow for open internet chat regarding details, let alone existence.
18:11:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:11:59 <btiffin> Hmm, yeah, part the add1to team like the wordpress. ;-) We hang out on SourceForge now at https://sourceforge.net/projects/open-cobol/
18:12:12 <boily> Bike: I see what you did there! you're trying to imply that COBOL exists more than CANADA!
18:12:15 <kmc> i'm sure your payroll software for a midsize paper company is SUPER TOP SECRET
18:12:28 <kmc> COBOL programmers live the lifestyle of the international spy
18:13:00 <Bike> the funny thing is i honestly have no reason not to believe that cobol isn't great for business work but this is still hilariously written
18:13:00 <btiffin> I might try and implement http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL the card language in COBOL, the yeah, that one.
18:13:25 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:13:55 <Bike> common poker-oriented language
18:14:19 <monqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxEW435R28 this isn't the cobol video but it's good too
18:15:00 <Bike> Oh hey, CGI integration. We can make cogs a reality
18:15:21 -!- carado has joined.
18:15:53 <Bike> Even somebody worried about "my COBOL conundrum" says "apps", huh.
18:16:14 <kmc> can i write iPhone apps in COBOL and why not
18:16:17 <btiffin> :-) Get to the Vala, and GTK, then the Shakespeare. ;-)
18:16:58 <Bike> kmc: according to this video you can use java and stuff with it!
18:17:06 <btiffin> Yep, raspberry pi runs COBOL, and android phones, can't testify to iOS.
18:17:09 <kmc> java and stuff
18:17:21 <monqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUrdX9xJx58 ooh i think this one might be the cobol video
18:17:28 <kmc> a professional cobol programmer is known as a "coballer"
18:17:31 <Bike> Now the COBOL guys and the other language developers can all work together, using the same tools.
18:17:40 <monqy> yesss yessssss im pretty sure this is it
18:18:40 <Bike> omg she says rewriting in another language is what everyone else is doing
18:18:43 <Bike> be novel. use cobol
18:19:06 <kmc> cobol programmers will work for less pay just for the chance to use cobol at work
18:19:26 <Bike> I admire the people who came up with these advertisements. If someone paid me to advertise COBOL I would be at a loss.
18:19:33 <kmc> and looking for cobol experience means you get only the most elite hackers -- those who learned cobol for fun just because
18:20:15 <Bike> #esoteric: only the most elite hackers
18:20:40 <Bike> take the enterprise applications of the future into the next future. i am unfamiliar with this idiom
18:20:53 <kmc> detach the saucer section
18:20:57 <monqy> it's 11 minutes of cobol praise
18:21:04 <boily> good to see Friday's terror kicking in. elite cobol hackers?
18:21:19 <kmc> Friday's Terror would be a good name for a band
18:21:47 <zzo38> It is Good Friday today, actually.
18:21:55 <kmc> that's true
18:22:00 <Bike> is that like Man Friday
18:22:12 <kmc> in the Western christian calendar anyway
18:22:17 <boily> Good Man Friday Terror's Band.
18:22:21 <zzo38> If you like COBOL then you can program in COBOL if you want to (whether or not you use CGI)
18:22:31 <Bike> Yes. That is the case.
18:22:33 <btiffin> I think a nice enhancement might be ; "cobol-module-name", have cbrain call COBOL and stash the result at cell. hmm, then bf programmers could experience the bliss of the verbose
18:22:45 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes, the Orthodox might be different
18:23:01 <Bike> So btiffin, you're a cobol programmer? do you do it at work?
18:23:15 <kmc> zzo38: it's May 3 i think
18:23:38 <kmc> dude next year easter is on 4/20, for both calendars
18:23:40 <kmc> duuuuuuuude
18:23:45 <Bike> “Moving beyond COBOL? Why? Move COBOL beyond.” seriously who wrote this
18:23:56 <zzo38> Well, it is sometimes the same.
18:23:58 <btiffin> Bike; Nope, hobby. Grew up on assembler, career in Forth, REBOL and GNU/ Linux building
18:24:09 <tswett> Define a band as a set of the form S \ T, where each of S and T can be written as the union of countably many closed sets.
18:24:17 <tswett> Can anyone think of a specific set of real numbers that is not a band?
18:24:31 <boily> `run ddate 3 5 2013
18:24:33 <HackEgo> Pungenday, Discord 50, 3179 YOLD
18:24:35 <zzo38> btiffin: But can you program the Famicom in assembler?
18:24:53 <kmc> can you ride with the console cowboys in cyberspace
18:25:01 <boily> kmc: it's on discoflux.
18:25:02 <btiffin> Fanboy of the OpenCOBOL, and zzo38, umm, not without some manuals. ;-)
18:25:05 <zzo38> It is more difficult because decimal mode doesn't work.
18:25:07 <kmc> boily: oh nice
18:25:23 <kmc> wait do you mean this year or next
18:25:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:26:12 <tromp_> tswett: how about normal numbers?
18:26:14 <zzo38> btiffin: Of course I need some manuals too, but I am sure there are many.
18:26:35 <boily> kmc: this year fluxes.
18:26:43 <boily> `run ddate 20 4 2014
18:26:44 <HackEgo> Setting Orange, Discord 37, 3180 YOLD
18:26:46 <tswett> tromp_: ooh, good one.
18:26:53 <boily> no such luck for 2014's one.
18:27:01 <btiffin> zzo38: And now I count myself a fan of Daniels, pbrain.c is a nice read.
18:27:05 <kmc> `run ddate 20 4 2013
18:27:07 <HackEgo> Setting Orange, Discord 37, 3179 YOLD
18:27:15 <kmc> `run ddate
18:27:17 <HackEgo> Today is Pungenday, the 15th day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
18:27:32 <kmc> `run ddate 17 3 2013
18:27:33 <Bike> "The OpenCOBOL Lua interface is defined at a very high level."
18:27:33 <HackEgo> Sweetmorn, Discord 3, 3179 YOLD
18:27:40 <tswett> Yeah, it seems likely that the set of all normal numbers is not a band.
18:27:58 <Bike> this is some extremely commented code
18:27:59 <tswett> Are there uncountably many abnormal numbers?
18:28:15 <zzo38> Does ddate have an option to use the Julian calendar for conversion, rather than Gregorian?
18:28:43 <boily> zzo38: the man page makes that probably very unprobable.
18:28:53 <Bike> that sounds like a pain, since ddate is specified to be in eternal harmony with Gregorian
18:28:58 <tswett> Right, I guess you could take an arbitrary sequence of digits and put a bunch of 1s into it.
18:29:12 <Bike> by "a pain" i mean "it would take any amount of effort"
18:29:44 <Bike> "Of course using Scheme for financial calculations in an OpenCOBOL application would not be a smart usage. This is just a working sample."
18:29:47 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, but some people prefer Julian because the Principia Discordia, even though it says Gregorian, it also says that there is a leap year every four years, and that is how the Julian calendar works, not Gregorian.
18:29:51 <boily> the non-triviality of julianing ddate is non-homeopathic.
18:30:20 <Bike> zzo38: are you saying the discordia is flawed? pistols at dawn, sir
18:30:21 <btiffin> Bike; I have a blast cheerleading COBOL, in C space.
18:30:48 <monqy> is that one of those new fangled virtual reality games
18:30:50 <Bike> btiffin: by "a blast" do you mean everybody making fun of you which i'm sort of doing right now actually, even though that's mean
18:31:00 <boily> hey fungot, what do you have to say about julians, gregors, and discordianism?
18:31:01 <fungot> boily: if any of the next and employees not to delete any email that i am not in good working condition before our members.
18:31:06 <btiffin> Oh I know, and yep. Too much fun.
18:31:07 <zzo38> Bike: It even says, do not believe anything you read (that includes itself, of course).
18:31:19 <zzo38> Therefore do not take it too much literally.
18:31:32 <Bike> not that i'm like, trying to be mean, but some of this ad copy is seriously ridiculous
18:32:08 <Bike> zzo38: I'm a fundamentalist.
18:32:23 <tswett> So how easily can you prove that the set of all normal numbers is not a band...
18:32:38 <ThatOtherPerson> By the way, fungot, what do you think of my tesseractian model of sanity?
18:32:38 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: here you are, the month of a check. mark fillinger it development of the email that i mentioned on a voicemail.
18:32:45 <zzo38> I don't like religious fundamentalist, whether Christian or otherwise...
18:32:56 <Bike> Like I said. Pistols at dawn, sir.
18:33:13 <ThatOtherPerson> So one of your fundamental beliefs is that fundamentalists are bad?
18:33:39 <Bike> though this channel isn't exactly "a c space"
18:33:56 <btiffin> I'll accept that, and maybe tone it down someday Bike. I am a fan though and will likely continue the claims and woohoobisboombah.
18:34:14 <zzo38> ThatOtherPerson: Well, the religious "fundamentalists" I think are missing the point of a true religion, as far as I am concerned. That makes them a false religion.
18:34:20 <Bike> btiffin: does cobol use manual or automatic memory management?
18:34:48 <btiffin> Agree again Bike, just the vector that got me to cbrain, and Shakespeare and beatnik
18:35:00 <boily> ~duck woohoobisboombah
18:35:25 <ThatOtherPerson> If you are fundamentally against fundamentalists, does that make you a fundamentalist? If so, are you then fundamentally against yourself?
18:35:42 <zzo38> I don't know, but that is not what I meant.
18:35:46 <ThatOtherPerson> ... when I get like this it usually means I should go to sleep.
18:36:15 <boily> @localtime ThatOtherPerson
18:36:16 <lambdabot> Local time for ThatOtherPerson is Fri Mar 29 21:36:25
18:36:32 <boily> 9:36pm is usually a nice time to go to sleep.
18:38:20 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:45:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
18:56:29 <zzo38> Kristians miss the entire point of Christianity. It is a *metaphor* to guide you in spiritual growth. Kristians ignore the deep meaning. The wisdom Christianity contains was borrowed from dozens of predecessor religions. Kristians use Christianity to keep themselves in a state of spiritual stupor.
18:56:47 <zzo38> I agree with this statement, and it applies to all religious mythology not only Christian.
18:57:05 <Bike> kristian kreme
18:57:39 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/5970af4f5925b41d2e0850a496bef0f8/tumblr_mkfce3sn6X1rhcorso1_1280.jpg
18:58:37 <zzo38> This report defines "Kristian" as a false Christian; like the stupid stuff the fundamentalists do.
19:00:18 <Bike> the revised^903 report on the belief system "nicean"
19:01:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, until i noticed the woman i thought the crab was committing suicide
19:09:40 -!- augur has joined.
19:09:44 <boily> ³ exists, but ⁹ and ⁰ are taken from a mysterious, unidentifiable fallback.
19:11:21 <elliott> so the 3 is misaligned with the 9 and 0
19:12:44 <boily> still haven't figured out how fontconfig works and chooses fonts. every contact I've had with it trying to configure that beast resulted in me losing on average ~570 ml of blood.
19:13:13 <elliott> looks like i only have 123 in terminus
19:13:16 <nooodl> i'm guessing only ² and ³ look ok?
19:13:35 <boily> same here, no ⁽⁾⁻⁼⁺ in terminus.
19:14:15 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:14:38 <Taneb> Should I solve the Chinese Graphics Card Problem once and for all
19:14:40 <Taneb> Or should I watch anime
19:15:05 <oerjan> Taneb: s/Graphics Card //
19:15:13 <boily> you can't do both at the same time?
19:15:20 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
19:15:31 <oerjan> solve it _with_ anime, duh
19:15:36 <zzo38> Did you eat the blood you have previously lost?
19:15:45 <elliott> Taneb: didn't you say you solved it.
19:16:03 <elliott> did your new graphics card turn out to be chinese too
19:16:05 <Taneb> That the problem had BARELY JUST BEGUN
19:16:43 <kmc> the Chinese Graphics Card Problem is known to be PSPACE-complete
19:16:53 <boily> zzo38: nah, I keep it in 4D self-referential jars.
19:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh trying to do so will build character, moreso than watching anime
19:17:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, even if said anime is ridiculawesome?
19:17:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover is Calvin's dad, it all makes sense now
19:20:16 <Halite> why is there a tesseract in my living room
19:20:43 -!- btiffin has left.
19:20:46 <Taneb> (wouldn't a tesseract just look like a wobbly cube?)
19:21:08 <oerjan> why does Halite get to have a tesseract in his living room
19:23:27 -!- mrtrop has left.
19:25:04 <Taneb> oerjan, maybe it's just a wobbly cube that looks like it could be a tesseract
19:25:47 <Halite> it's not a wobbly cube
19:26:01 <Halite> it's moving in the ana direction and I can't see it anymore
19:26:26 <Halite> it just moved in the kata direction back to its original position and I can see it now
19:26:44 <oerjan> Halite: you should grab a hold of it and travel into unknown dimensions
19:27:20 <Halite> oerjan, I can make it move in directions. I could use it to travel through dimensions!
19:27:28 <oerjan> that's what i would want a tesseract for, anyway
19:27:33 <Halite> Goodbye, hitching a ride on the tesseract...
19:27:56 <Halite> ah cool, there's a laptop in this dimension
19:28:12 <Halite> and a desktop computer!
19:28:36 <oerjan> i think you may be traveling in circles. or maybe you are an alternative Halite
19:29:08 <Halite> I am Halite, I am exactly 2010 years old. It is the year 3013.
19:29:22 <oerjan> that would be somewhat disappointing, traveling through dimensions and all looking the same
19:29:43 <Halite> true, but I don't see the same
19:29:58 <Halite> I'm on a desktop computer in an alternate dimension at the moment
19:30:10 <oerjan> hi Halite how was the medieval age
19:30:20 <shachaf> Weren't you banned or something?
19:30:32 <Halite> shachaf, from haskell, not from here
19:30:44 <kmc> are 'ana' and 'kata' canonical names for directions in a fourth spatial dimension?
19:30:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:31:13 <kmc> do cross products work in 4D or not
19:31:21 <Halite> it's simply explained like this
19:31:34 <kmc> "if the product is limited to non-trivial binary products with vector results, it exists only in three and seven dimensions"
19:31:35 <oerjan> kmc: nope, you need to cross 3 vectors to get one back
19:32:12 <Halite> Take some 0D point. When you duplicate the point and move it in a new direction, you get a one-dimensional line.
19:32:30 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:32:36 <Halite> Take the line and duplicate the line and move it in a new direction. You connect the lines and get a square.
19:32:55 <Halite> Take the square and duplicate and move and connect blaryblar, you get a cube.
19:33:04 <Halite> Now, for the 4D tesseract:
19:33:18 <Taneb> Screw this, I'm watching anime
19:33:29 <Halite> Take the cube and duplicate it. Move the duplicate in a new direction and connect the cubes. You get a tesseract.
19:34:37 <Halite> screw anime, I'm watching my tesseract
19:35:00 <Halite> my tesseract is as powerful as a spaceship
19:37:27 <hagb4rdoux> Halite: as your lawyer, i advice you to upgrade to a bistro-drive!
19:37:29 <hagb4rdoux> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bistromathematics
19:38:26 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:39:39 <boily> nooodl: Tanebと嵌めいますか？？？
19:40:34 <oerjan> but is it a giant mecha tesseract?
19:41:41 <nooodl> i was making an awful "screw" pun :(
19:41:56 <boily> nooodl: oh, sorry. should have caught it sooner.
19:42:26 <pikhq> oerjan: Colloquial use of verbs fucks it up.
19:42:39 <pikhq> "嵌める" is "to insert" or colloquially "to fuck".
19:43:01 <FreeFull> Bistro-drives are much more whale and teapot friendly
19:43:03 <nooodl> ("to screw" in my MAGNIFICENT pun)
19:44:08 <elliott> cjk looks like such shit in this terminal
19:44:52 <boily> I think my system has reached, completely by accident and cosmological coincidences, a state where japanese and/or trad. chinese characters display correctly.
19:45:10 <elliott> by such shit I mean ugly. not incorrect
19:45:12 <FreeFull> Although pixellated because it defaults to unifont for these glyphs
19:45:22 <boily> simplified characters are fscking ugly and augment my blood-loss average by a significant amount.
19:45:59 <pikhq> Simplified characters are also harder. Ironically.
19:46:02 <nooodl> solution: use ms gothic for everything
19:46:48 <boily> I have a plethora of a multitude of various diverse CJK fonts. I don't know which one's being displayed on my screen at this moment.
19:47:16 <nooodl> solution: delete all but one of them
19:48:49 <boily> nah. I'm a font horder.
19:49:15 <boily> I even managed to find a copy of the one that's used in bakemonogatari!
19:50:21 <hagb4rdoux> boily: there is this useful google font api cdn.. ever used it? they gotta lot of fonts
19:51:01 <boily> hagb4rdoux: yep, multiple times, but I find that fontsquirrel is more practical.
19:51:33 <oerjan> hagb4rdoux: are you trying to fit in with the french
19:51:42 <hagb4rdoux> but collecting fonts is kind of contradictory to have them delivered on demand
19:53:16 <kmc> apt-get install ttf-*
19:53:22 <zzo38> Simplified Chinese is more difficult to undersatnd and worse in other ways
19:53:33 <kmc> which ways zzo38?
19:54:10 <boily> bye all! see you on tuesday, perhaps!
19:54:11 <kmc> zzo38: you're something of a technological reactionary aren't you
19:54:16 <kmc> good bye boily
19:54:33 <boily> be careful of easter eggs, they can latch onto your face a breed a new species of mutant rabbits!
19:54:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
19:54:39 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:54:50 <kmc> bye bye metasepia
19:54:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Easier to write.
19:54:59 <pikhq> Harder to remember though.
19:55:20 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, harder to remember and harder to understand.
19:55:33 <zzo38> Even my Wikipedia says that I don't like Simplified Chinese
19:57:25 -!- hagb4rdoux has changed nick to hagb4rd.
19:57:56 <hagb4rd> @tell Arc_Koen so liked the live-electro-session yesterday? but you missed the best part! fortunatly i have a raw record shared right here for you :) ..be sure to check that DJ at ~15:00 ..epic <3 -> https://www.box.com/8bit-eastereggs
20:03:33 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> what if North Korea throws a nuke? <-- then Kim Jong-Un and his generals all get Darwin Awards of the Century.
20:14:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:23:57 <kmc> yeah, the question is mostly how many south koreans will die before the US air force is finished leveling North Korea
20:24:58 <kmc> my hope is that the NK leadership aren't really as crazy as they look, but have realized that acting crazy is a good way to get concessions from the International Community
20:25:04 <kmc> elliott: that's true
20:25:13 <elliott> turns out they're people :P
20:25:51 <Fiora> part of it is also an internal thing, having to act tough to maintain political influence I think
20:25:54 <kmc> although their lives are already shitty so it's less of a marginal harm?
20:26:02 <zzo38> People make a lot of mistakes, but people make a lot of other things too.
20:26:03 <kmc> this is the kind of basically awful conclusion that you get from utilitarianism
20:26:03 <Fiora> like with ahmedinejad's boasts and so forth
20:26:26 <kmc> Fiora: true, although Iran is somewhat a democracy and it's useful for the leaders to distract the people from domestic issues
20:26:33 <kmc> no such concern in NK
20:26:38 <zzo38> Do you know if ImageMagick can use voltage/phase color formats?
20:26:47 <kmc> the economy has been shit for 50 years and the people are brainwashed to ignore it
20:26:50 <kmc> that doesn't work in Iran so much
20:27:04 <Fiora> that's true, though, they still use a lot of the stuff they do as propaganda in NK
20:27:23 <Fiora> there's lies in it of course, like when they claimed the failed satellite launch succeeded and used that as propaganda, but
20:27:36 <kmc> but they could literally tell their people they had nuked los angeles and most of them would never find out anything to the contrary
20:27:50 <Fiora> it seems to be an important ego thing, I don't know
20:28:01 <Fiora> they like doing things and then bragging about them to the populace
20:28:05 <Fiora> (or pretending they worked and then doing it)
20:28:30 <elliott> kmc: I hear that tales of total north korean brainwashing are exaggerated in the west
20:28:40 <kmc> oh no have we been brainwashed
20:28:49 <elliott> and that most of them are plenty aware that their government sucks
20:28:50 <Fiora> that is true too :p
20:28:56 <elliott> of course I have no evidence either way
20:29:04 <Fiora> there are some good accounts from people who escaped and so on
20:29:15 <Fiora> terrifying reads, but interesting ones
20:29:20 <elliott> but it sounds plausible that this kind of brainwashing story would be blown out of proportion to make north korea look as scary and evil as possible or such
20:29:30 <kmc> why does china still put up with them
20:29:47 <kmc> it's not like the US and unified Korea are going to start a war with china
20:30:04 <kmc> seems p. unlikely
20:30:14 <Fiora> I think it's partially a distraction, but also they really really really don't want to have to deal with all the refugees?
20:30:35 <kmc> well china
20:30:39 <kmc> sometimes you gotta take one for the team
20:31:24 <kmc> if everyone from NK moved to china it would increase the population of china by like 1.8%
20:31:48 <elliott> i think a 1.8% increase in population would give china a heart attack
20:31:59 <elliott> since they already have approx. 129 billion people
20:32:06 <kmc> nah it's fine
20:32:16 <Bike> has anyone ever really been "brainwashed"
20:32:22 <Fiora> 1.8% is still kind of a lot I guess, especially when integration would be really difficult
20:32:24 <zzo38> ImageMagick does not seem to have a voltage/phase colorspace, although it does have many.
20:32:25 <kmc> Bike: sirhan sirhan
20:32:30 <Fiora> I mean that's like 6 million people entering the US
20:32:51 <kmc> Fiora: the difference is that the US economy is turbofucked
20:33:00 <Fiora> and geez, china's isn't?
20:33:04 <kmc> economy *and* political process
20:33:05 <elliott> i thought i had a stupid idea but i forgot it
20:33:20 <Bike> kmc: i don't really know anything about him actually, is he as crazy as czolgosz was
20:33:23 <Fiora> they're kind of floating on a soap bubble made out of bad bank loans
20:33:33 <kmc> that's fine
20:33:45 <elliott> you can wash yourself with loans?
20:33:51 <Bike> anyway if i've learned anything from syria and libya it's that nobody likes refugees ever at all
20:33:53 <kmc> they have an autocracy, the government can just fix everything unilaterally
20:34:01 <kmc> whilst ignoring human rights
20:34:05 <kmc> but it won't really be worse than now
20:34:20 <Fiora> it's not really an autocracy... it's an oligarchy kind of, but...
20:34:27 <Fiora> imagine going up to a group of 15 other representatives of the party
20:34:29 <Fiora> and trying to convince them
20:34:39 <kmc> n.b. I am like 20% serious here at most
20:34:40 <Fiora> that taking in 20 million people and budgeting for them
20:34:41 <Fiora> will be a great idea
20:34:43 <Bike> Plus a lot of the Chinese leadership is probably invested in those sorts of things, they might not be willing to just disaparate it.
20:34:59 <Fiora> people kind of falsely view china as some magic dictatorship, it has just as much politicking as the US
20:35:03 <Fiora> (just, a lot more quiet about it)
20:35:28 <Fiora> and if someone wants to change china's policy internally they need to get support and influence from others in the party
20:35:39 <elliott> if there's any kind of dictatorship i can get behind it's a magical one
20:35:48 * Bike only knows anything about Chinese business politics from that anonops group that looked for fraud in Chinese corps
20:36:05 <elliott> execution by firing squad and/or avada kedavra
20:36:42 <Fiora> I guess it's kinda like. in a lot of ways it's not that amazingly different from here, since it's... well, still run by politicians
20:36:53 <kmc> fair enough
20:36:55 <Bike> that sounds pretty hard to market to Fox fiora
20:37:07 <Bike> could you maybe rephrase that in a more insultingly reductionist way
20:37:13 <kmc> at least their politicians are scientists and engineers and not lawyers
20:37:21 <elliott> ok i have a proposal: make kim jong-un queen and we'll take over north korea
20:37:33 <kmc> (this is probably a bad preference)
20:37:36 <Fiora> I'm not sure how true that is in this upcoming generation of Party members
20:37:45 <Fiora> (I don't know if it's any less true, but it might be?)
20:37:50 <Bike> kmc: Something something dams.
20:37:59 <Bike> elliott: You know that Kim Il-Sung is still president?
20:38:15 -!- Halite has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:38:18 <elliott> i don't see any problem here
20:38:30 <Fiora> huh, Xi was still a chemial engineer. cool
20:38:30 <Bike> The British political process is truly efficient.
20:39:17 <elliott> visiting north korea would be kind of cool except it'd actually be awful and terrible
20:40:13 <Fiora> kmc: I guess a more political summary would be "the gap between us and china isn't actually that large -- look how little of a difference one needs to become an authoritarian state"
20:40:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:41:00 <Bike> sometime i need to find a diehard mccarthyist and ask them what they think was goingn on when china invaded vietnam
20:41:37 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
20:41:45 <HackEgo> 997) <Bike> elliott: atlas shrugged is basically about wacking galt repeatedly with a giant platonic solid
20:42:00 <Bike> alt about the sino-albanian split because who cares about the sino-albanian split?
20:42:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania#Communist_Albania makes it sound p. nice
20:43:41 <Bike> the nicest part of albania is the names. "Hoxhaism" and "Zogist" for instance
20:43:42 <elliott> Bike: something about parentheses :-) the joke is that mccarthy made lisp :-)
20:43:48 <kmc> ok I grudgingly support religious freedom, but literacy and industrial growth sound nice
20:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> why is everyone talking about north korea all of a sudden
20:44:02 <elliott> wait i'm going to say soemthing witty on the topic so it can be added as a quote:
20:44:06 <kmc> Bike: not to mention Shqipëria
20:44:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: because they threatened to nuke something probably
20:44:11 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: I think I caused that sorry
20:44:38 <kmc> the nicest part of albania is the brand new western style hotel that let me use their western style toilets even though I obviously had no intention of staying there
20:44:42 <FireFly> AnotherTest: stop threatening to nuke stuff!
20:44:50 <FireFly> AnotherTest: oh wait you're not Kim, sorry
20:44:52 <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um
20:44:59 <elliott> someone else gets to make the dumb joke
20:45:02 <kmc> after the 12 hour ride on Crazy Holidays bus with no toilets
20:45:27 <kmc> that stopped once at a rest area which had only squat toilets
20:45:29 <Bike> elliott: a poof
20:45:33 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to KimJong-Un.
20:45:44 <Bike> kim jong ummmmm
20:45:57 <kmc> squat toilets are OK i guess, but not so much when many of the users don't know how to use them
20:46:14 <elliott> toilets are gross; outlaw toilets
20:46:35 <kmc> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/01/hitlers-toilet-new-jersey-auto-repair-station_n_2592902.html
20:47:23 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilaihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Lijun_incident this incident was really interesting
20:47:39 <elliott> your links had a bit of a collision there
20:49:11 <Bike> Oh, that was all over the news, wasn't it?
20:49:37 <kmc> The Chongqing municipal government declared that Wang was receiving "vacation-style medical treatment".
20:49:38 <Bike> "vacation-style medical treatment", lol. I think the KGB said something similar during the 1991 coup.
20:49:51 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
20:49:53 <Fiora> I don't remember seeing it much in western news? it was one of those things that was hard to explain or define a right and wrong
20:49:55 <HackEgo> 998) <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
20:50:10 <Fiora> Bo was disliked by Party people because of his populist message and, well, popularity
20:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i definitely heard about the murdering a british businessman thing
20:50:27 <Fiora> but his wife also laundered literally billions of yuan in money, probably from bribes, out of the country
20:50:51 <Fiora> and there's suspicion that's what led to the murder, with the guy who was murdered demanding a larger cut of the money
20:51:27 <Bike> I don't remember seeing it much in western news? <-- I'm pretty sure I got it from popular sources. I mean, it involves a Westerner, that's a way to get people to "care".
20:51:28 <Fiora> she has a suspended death sentence for her alleged role in ordering the murder + money laundering I thnk
20:51:50 <Bike> Oh, and the US consolate.
20:52:08 <Fiora> it was really controversial within china too because many people really liked Bo, and viewed it as a Party plot (or by at least some people in the Party who were his enemies) to smear him
20:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, in your considered opinion is that thing about falun gong organs true
20:52:29 <Bike> I'm going to guess no and I don't even know what you're talking about.
20:52:34 <Bike> Harvesting organs from Gong adherents?
20:52:59 <Bike> Oh, hey, the Wikipedia article cites the NYT among others, Fiora.
20:53:16 <Fiora> Bike: sorry, I meant more like. a lot of the in-china details felt like they got less coverage I guess
20:53:27 <Bike> Oh well yeah :P
20:53:31 <Fiora> but I guess I don't read news much so
20:53:36 <Fiora> I can't really honestly judge <_>
20:53:37 <Bike> "some chinese guy is seeking US asylum???"
20:53:51 <Bike> "possibly red communists involved"
20:54:10 <Bike> "China Red Star Bo Xilai Denies Son Drives a Red Ferrari – China Real Time Report – WSJ". The Wall Street Journal. <-- Or I could just let the actual headlines talk, haha jesus.
20:55:00 <Fiora> see. it really is just like US politicans XD
20:55:34 <elliott> i would like to complain about the notion that a political system can be not that bad because it's just as good as the US's
20:55:51 <Fiora> sorry, I didn't mean to say "wasn't that bad" but rather
20:56:08 <Fiora> it feels wrong to view it as this alien magical dictatorship thing, instead of a political system filled with real people
20:56:12 <elliott> oh i wasn't complaining about anyone in particular
20:56:28 <elliott> i agree your point isr easonable, it's just ridiculous to me that people would take that as a good thing about china
20:57:17 <Fiora> I think there sees to be at least this small tendency of some nerds to want to think china's system might be good because (they say) it is better at looking into the future and making decisions that aren't just about the next election term and so they can undertake large projects and so on
20:57:48 <Fiora> but I don't think that's really that true, they have just as much politicking and so many politicians are in it for short-term gain and the long-term-outlook seems to be by far the exception
20:58:01 <Fiora> and because the system works so slowly it can take decades to get rid of old ideas
20:58:27 <kmc> i don't think china's system is good, because i like human rights
20:58:28 <Fiora> (and the whole "it's run by engineers!" thing)
20:58:37 <kmc> but it might be more /effective/
20:58:48 <Fiora> I guess that's (kind of) what I mean?
20:58:58 <kmc> also Albania sounds like it was run by someone who has just started playing a RTS game and is bad at it
20:59:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:59:04 <kmc> "FUCK IT, BUNKERS EVERYWHERE"
20:59:09 <elliott> good thing to point at people who think technocracy is a good idea
20:59:44 <Fiora> kmc: like the Atlantic Wall, too?
21:00:51 <kmc> window pops up "sir you have spent 2% of your GDP on bunkers"
21:01:16 <kmc> fuck it, more bunkers
21:01:59 <Fiora> that almost feels like how the german government worked in the 40s
21:02:16 <kmc> they were actually at war though
21:02:28 <Fiora> oh geez, and albania wasn't? XD
21:02:31 <Fiora> when they built all the bunkers
21:02:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:02:56 <zzo38> Where can I buy 3-buttons non-wheel mouse?
21:03:00 <kmc> nah it was just cold war paranoia
21:03:16 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania
21:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> was it predicated on the assumption nobody would waste expensive enriched fissiles on albania
21:03:31 <kmc> they thought that china and russia and NATO would invade all at once
21:03:33 <Bike> was albania in the non-aligned movemented
21:03:35 <elliott> kmc: I like "they were actually at war though" "and albania wasn't?" "nah it was just cold war paranoia"
21:03:48 <kmc> because of course everyone wants to capture Albania
21:04:04 <kmc> it's #1 priority for every superpower
21:04:08 <kmc> elliott: well.... yes
21:04:12 <kmc> > "war" == "cold war"
21:04:12 <Bike> the cold war wasn't really a war, just a metawar. instead of killing the other guys you get some guys to kill the guys the other guys set up to kill your killer guys.
21:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, and also you see who goes broke from making nukes first.
21:04:41 <elliott> afaict the cold war was basically just everyone being bitter about all the wars for a while
21:04:42 <kmc> we outsourced war to the 3rd world, like everything else
21:05:06 <kmc> (this being the origin of the term '3rd world' in fact)
21:05:26 <elliott> wait the berlin wall was only built in 1961? god dammit i know literally nothing about history
21:05:40 <Bike> elliott: Before that they just used dudes with guns.
21:05:49 <kmc> i think there were border controls before that
21:05:57 <Bike> I mean it was still a wall, just not a wall wall.
21:06:12 <Bike> There was that whole airlift thing.
21:06:19 <kmc> for example west berlin was completely cut off in 1948 - 1949 and had to be supplied by air
21:06:22 <kmc> damn it bike
21:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if they'd had 3d printers they could've made a literal gun war
21:07:02 <kmc> the berlin wall museum is pretty interesting
21:07:11 <kmc> as is the DDR Museum
21:07:18 <kmc> no it's not about Dance Dance Revolution you nerds
21:07:26 <kmc> they don't make her live in the museum
21:07:51 <Bike> okay FDR is federal democratic republic = east germany right
21:07:57 <Bike> or did i get that backwards somehow
21:08:22 <kmc> DDR is east germany
21:08:31 <FireFly> Deutsche demokratische republik
21:08:32 <kmc> deutsche democratische republik (n.b. cannot spell germany)
21:09:39 <FireFly> extra vowels => other country
21:09:46 <kmc> west germany was Bundesrepublik Deutschland (BRD) or translated FRG
21:10:57 <oerjan> @tell btiffin <btiffin> I might try and implement http://esolangs.org/wiki/COBOL the card language in COBOL, the yeah, that one. <-- i couldn't possibly oppose this
21:11:21 <Bike> btiffin never answered my question about cobol :(
21:14:02 <oerjan> @ask Taneb Is the inventor of http://www.freewebs.com/manyhills/cobol.htm the same as the one on the IWC forum? ISTR you passing through murderous math forum on the way here, which is mentioned on the parent page.
21:18:06 <oerjan> modern unified germany is _still_ Bundesrepublik Deutschland fwiw.
21:18:32 -!- KimJong-Un has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:19:11 <oerjan> they just absorbed east germany as a bunch of new states (Länder iirc)
21:20:14 <pikhq> (for confusing reasons West Berlin was a seperate entity)
21:21:53 <kmc> http://www.titanic-magazin.de/uploads/pics/card_377670833.jpg
21:22:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:23:19 <pikhq> Oh that's hilarious.
21:23:27 <pikhq> So, for various reasons West Berlin had its own laws.
21:23:52 <pikhq> Their legislature simply voted in each law that passed in West Germany without debate.
21:25:58 -!- nooodl has joined.
21:28:38 <olsner> hmm, west berlin was surrounded by east germany? how did that work?
21:29:25 <kmc> the east german govt allowed certain forms of travel in and out, except when they didn't (see blockade mentioned above)
21:29:40 <kmc> like you could get a train that would go nonstop from west berlin to the west german border
21:29:55 <olsner> I've always sort of assumed berlin was in the middle of germany and split because it was straddling the border
21:30:17 <pikhq> Nope, it was split because military occupations are funky.
21:30:30 <kmc> aiui it was split because the Western Allies rushed to capture part of Berlin even though the USSR had captured the surrounding area already
21:30:40 <Bike> Also notable is that Germany was actually split into four. It's just that the three Allies kinda merged their bit.
21:30:56 <Fiora> it's like the king solomon approach to countries
21:31:08 <Bike> Except that they went "cut it!", yes
21:31:17 -!- Halite has joined.
21:31:20 <pikhq> Yeah, there were 4 different sectors of Berlin. The USSR just wanted to take their ball and go home.
21:31:24 <kmc> also some of the West Berlin U-Bahn subway lines ran through East Berlin without stopping
21:31:46 <kmc> so your morning commute might involve not just a train ride in a foreign country but a train ride across the Iron Curtain and into hostile territory
21:32:09 <pikhq> There was even a station that was in East Berlin, but with the only entrances in West Berlin.
21:32:14 <kmc> Friedrichstraße station became a border crossing
21:32:22 <Bike> the west must have had to do some pretty fantastic marketing to get people to actually live in those conditions
21:32:42 <kmc> it had an international transit lounge (like an airport) where the DDR govt sold duty-free cigarettes
21:32:45 <pikhq> Bike: The West German economy was significantly better-off.
21:33:03 <Bike> pikhq: I mean, to get people to live in West Berlin rather than the contiguous parts of West Germany.
21:33:10 <pikhq> This includes West Berlin.
21:33:37 <kmc> it's a fair point, it's not like West Berlin was the capital anymore
21:33:41 <kmc> but still a big city with jobs and shit
21:34:00 <pikhq> Yeah, it was a huge city then.
21:34:25 <pikhq> And a lot of people would've already called it home by the time of the occupation.
21:35:08 <kmc> moving and finding a new job and such is a huge barrier
21:35:33 <kmc> it's sort of like, why doesn't everyone in Greece and Cyprus and Spain move to Germany?
21:35:36 <kmc> technically they could
21:35:55 <Bike> I know, it just seems like there might not be much population replacement, and some trickle out.
21:36:15 <pikhq> Bike: Also, West Berliners were exempt from West German military conscription.
21:36:25 <Bike> Oh, well then.
21:36:29 <kmc> pikhq: handy
21:36:30 <pikhq> So, you had incentive for counterculture young people to go to West Germany.
21:36:42 <kmc> is that why berlin is so awesome now
21:40:35 <kmc> damn now i want currywurst
21:40:43 <kmc> fortunately I can make this dream a reality
21:41:06 <elliott> Cury was the wurst. he didn't even invent haskell.
21:42:04 <kmc> elliott: die in a fire
21:45:08 -!- Halite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:47:33 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:48:46 <Gregor> olsner: Indian or Thai?
21:49:30 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: is Gregor a curry purist?
21:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, he has strong opinions on food despite the fact that he does not in fact have a sense of taste
21:50:09 <olsner> I can say with certainty that one of the ingredients was thai red curry paste
21:50:26 <Gregor> Oh, so you didn't make curry at all.
21:50:49 <Gregor> As you guessed, I'm a curry purist ;)
21:50:54 <olsner> what is required to call it curry?
21:51:02 <Gregor> When I make Thai curry, I certainly don't include any ingredients with "curry" in the name.
21:51:10 <Gregor> Because then you didn't make the curry, you just used a curry mix.
21:51:21 <Gregor> (Which is fine and dandy, but IMPURE AND UNHOLY)
21:52:27 <olsner> so by "the curry" you mean only the spice mix and not any of the food that you usually make with it? in my book, the result of putting curry in food is a curry
21:53:14 <Gregor> I only use curry mixes to make things other than curries.
21:53:21 <Gregor> I put curry powder in egg salad, not curry :)
21:53:57 <pikhq> Gregor: There's more curries than Indian or Thai you know.
21:54:03 <Gregor> (I'm just being a pretentious twat here ;) )
21:54:05 * pikhq likes Japanese curry.
21:54:11 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes, but those are the two that usually come to mind.
21:54:17 <oerjan> 18:24:09: <tswett> Define a band as a set of the form S \ T, where each of S and T can be written as the union of countably many closed sets.
21:54:21 <oerjan> 18:24:17: <tswett> Can anyone think of a specific set of real numbers that is not a band?
21:54:23 <Gregor> Also, I've never had a Japanese or Chinese curry that I could rate as better than abominable.
21:54:38 <oerjan> aka "the intersection of an F_sigma and a G_delta set"
21:55:35 <pikhq> Gregor: This is no doubt because you only fnarf.
22:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> psure Gregor and pikhq have had this exact conversation before
22:01:23 <oerjan> aka "Delta_2^0 sets", apparently.
22:01:34 <Gregor> TO FNARF, PERCHANCE TO TASTE
22:02:00 <oerjan> that's if it's both kinds simultaneously, not the intersection of each
22:02:15 <olsner> to boldly fnarf what none have fnarfed before
22:03:26 * oerjan doesn't actually recall any answer to the actual question, though.
22:06:37 <fizzie> We had visitors and now I'm decidedly fuzzy.
22:06:56 <fizzie> In the sense of having to retype everything thrice.
22:07:16 <kmc> f i z z i e
22:07:32 <fizzie> Sadly, I think #esoteric was a topic of discussion only thrice or so.
22:07:34 <oerjan> fizzie: not in the sense of being covered with fuzz?
22:07:48 <fizzie> Thrice, that's a funy word.
22:07:54 <oerjan> fizzie: btw with your nick, shouldn't you always be covered with fuzz.
22:08:02 <olsner> you discussed #esoteric? with who/what?
22:08:42 <oerjan> oh no, soon we'll have folks invading here D:
22:08:48 <fizzie> One of them was an ineiros who's on-channel and lall.
22:09:08 <oerjan> ineiros_: did you hear fizzie calls you folk
22:09:27 <oerjan> probably not, idle for 16 days
22:09:31 <fizzie> I might call him folksy.
22:09:47 <fizzie> It's not accurate, but still.
22:16:34 <fizzie> He has a long way from home here, and things to do, AIUI.
22:18:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:20:09 -!- Bike has joined.
22:21:45 <fizzie> We went through a litre of gin and some assorted varieties of things, anyway. Can't ask for too much after that. Including not calling folks occasionally folks.
22:27:41 <fizzie> I am not very likable I am very durnk it is not amusing.
22:30:03 <lambdabot> hagb4rd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:30:27 <olsner> fizzie: I find it a bit amusing
22:30:30 <fizzie> Not stoned, just durnk. It's a different thing altogether.
22:30:43 <fizzie> olsner: Things work out just right if I only use one eye.
22:30:56 <olsner> close your eyes and touch type?
22:31:04 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:31:04 <fizzie> I think that might work fine too.
22:31:15 <fizzie> Except I did not look whether it did.
22:31:30 <fizzie> Anyhoo, I'm gonna assume it did, it's not like there's any reason for it not to.
22:32:11 <fizzie> There might be a problem if I get things left or rightoff by one key.
22:32:32 <olsner> you should have those notches on f and j to set you straight
22:32:46 -!- heroux has joined.
22:32:53 <fizzie> I do have those things. ( confess. I peeked.)
22:33:18 <olsner> beware the floor though, it tends to sneak up on you when you're drunk
22:34:14 <fizzie> If I rest my head on the thing that's behind me on the chair I get this feeling as if I might fall asleep or something, I think that might be related.
22:34:32 <fizzie> What is that thing called.
22:35:13 <hagb4rd> keep in mind: alcohol is not a solution..
22:35:51 <fizzie> It sure is. We certainly compounded with interest. (That's a poorly thought out accounting joke.)
22:36:33 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).
22:39:49 <hagb4rd> <fizzie>If I rest my head on the thing that's behind me on the chair I get this feeling as if I might fall asleep or something <-- horrorshow droog! don't try this at home kids
22:40:18 <fizzie> Is a "horrorshow droong" what it's called=
22:40:55 <hagb4rd> fears and loathing with fizzie: http://soomka.com/nadsat.html
22:40:56 <Koen_> hagb4rd: so apparently having the friday off is a protestant thing, whereas only monday is catholic
22:40:57 <kmc> horrorshow is a corruption of khorosho meaning "cool"
22:41:31 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:41:33 <hagb4rd> actually i thought it means "good"
22:41:38 <oerjan> and having thursday, friday _and_ monday off is norwegian hth.
22:41:55 * kmc was cured allright
22:42:03 <fizzie> We have a Friday and a Monday off HTH HTHAND.
22:42:24 -!- heroux has joined.
22:42:37 <oerjan> i think the swedes may too, it's the thursday which is unusual for norway
22:43:11 <oerjan> every maundy thursday scores of norwegians roam across the swedish border to buy alcohol.
22:43:13 <hagb4rd> erm what are we talking about again?
22:43:22 <olsner> it seems that in norway every day is off
22:43:52 <fizzie> iT WAS QUITE QUIET AT WORK AT WORK ON FRIDAY.
22:44:08 <fizzie> Anyhow I meant Thursday.
22:44:14 <fizzie> Friday hasn't happened yet.
22:44:25 <olsner> friday is today, I believe
22:44:41 <fizzie> Technically I think it's Saturday here.
22:44:46 <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today.
22:44:52 <olsner> if today was thursday I would've accidentally a day off from work
22:44:58 <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:44:58 -!- hogeyui has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:45:27 <olsner> in Swedish it's Long Friday and for some reason the tradition says you have to be bored the whole day
22:45:39 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today. <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:45:43 <HackEgo> 999) <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today. <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
22:45:51 <hagb4rd> we had all these parties yesterday.. but the easter-friday itself public-celebratation is illegal in germany
22:45:55 <HackEgo> 998) <elliott> it's such a shame the inventor of lisp was um <elliott> ok i give up
22:46:25 <oerjan> i recall there is an ancient superstition in norway that any work started on good friday will end in disaster.
22:46:36 <fizzie> The students at the university have the thursday to next wednesday off, or something.
22:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what was the public opinion of the good friday agreement
22:46:56 <fizzie> I made them exercises for Tuesday and they said it's the easter and they're not a do a thing.
22:47:08 <Bike> i vote 1000 be a zzote
22:47:17 <olsner> I think university students here usually have one week off for easter, then a couple of almost-off weeks when nothing happens except exams
22:47:26 <hagb4rd> it's the only day in the year, and it's most controlversial (and also kind of deprecated)
22:47:34 <Koen_> hagb4rd: so you celebrate on thursday instead?
22:47:40 <fizzie> We have four exam periods a year.
22:47:54 <hagb4rd> just everyday but not friday
22:48:04 <fizzie> One at the end of end of spring and one at the end of autumn and two at the mid-parts of each.
22:48:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't recall was that something irish?
22:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the agreement that effectively ended the Troubles
22:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: have you noticed that google result summaries are grey now
22:49:34 <oerjan> "work started" means new projects, btw.
22:49:52 <oerjan> hard boring work was apparently encouraged.
22:50:26 <Koen_> "boring friday - happy resurrection"
22:52:36 <hagb4rd> absolutely.. well there are a lot of illegal inofficial parites around.. ppl just feel pissed about such restrictions
22:54:09 <hagb4rd> we are a secular state in the end
22:54:52 <kmc> the liberal european sort of state-sponsored religion is pretty amusing
22:58:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you go to work today?
22:59:04 <shachaf> zzo38: By the way, three-button mice without wheels are reasonably easy to come by on the Internet.
22:59:06 <hagb4rd> everything is fine with religion here.. it's mostly up to you to decide (or not) what you believe in
22:59:15 <shachaf> I see some on amazon.com, for example.
22:59:25 <shachaf> Or I did last time you asked about it.
23:00:00 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Yes, I am fine too, for you to believe as you wish, but I don't want you to force everyone of some religion. Freedom of religion also must mean freedom from religion.
23:01:08 <fizzie> ~duck grey google result summaries
23:01:48 <olsner> maybe they spell it gray
23:01:54 <hagb4rd> zzo38: we were taling about parties and drugs basically.. if that comforts you
23:02:13 <hagb4rd> fizzie started.. that nasty drunken fin
23:02:15 <fizzie> Were "we" talking about thaT?
23:02:23 <fizzie> I don't hink I started a hink.
23:02:43 <hagb4rd> it doesnt matter who started
23:03:45 -!- hogeyui has joined.
23:04:10 <fizzie> We have 76.4% of our population that are in a theoretical sense members of the state-sponsored religion, the Evangeligal Lutheran Church of Finland.
23:04:26 <Koen_> so, imagine bfjoust, except with only commands + - > < . and played turn-based by humans
23:04:30 <Koen_> would that work out well?
23:04:36 <hagb4rd> i live in a hagb4rd-sponsored-state
23:04:59 <fizzie> They still have some sort of a specific privileged status in the legislation. Along with the orthogonal christians. Or is that orthodox?
23:05:14 <kmc> orthonormal christianity
23:05:25 <elliott> Koen_: you really need branching to take a cycle
23:05:28 <elliott> for it to at all be interesting
23:05:30 <kmc> fizzie: how many of those people don't give a shit about religion and just ticked that box because it's the default
23:05:36 <Koen_> elliott: . gives information
23:05:42 <elliott> so um, maybe you don't get to know the tape and play with a DM
23:05:45 <Koen_> and it's played by humans so branching is done by free will
23:05:59 <tswett> oerjan: hm, is that what that is.
23:06:00 <elliott> ok so you don't get to know the cell state or tape position unless you do .?
23:06:13 <fizzie> kmc: Quite many of them ticked the box it's because you get to have a "real wedding" like that, I think. (Even larger amount don't give any shits about religion.)
23:06:13 <elliott> even being able to get current cell value is too much
23:06:22 <elliott> really you need to be able to only ask "is the current cell 0?"
23:06:49 <Koen_> . can either mean "display content of current cell" or "tell whether current cell is zero"
23:07:02 <fizzie> We had a wedding where the wedding music was about big dicks, except only one person probably realized that, since I had removed all the lyrics.
23:07:13 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:07:26 <fizzie> (Or a .s3m file, I forget which.)
23:07:58 <Koen_> elliott: anyway, you could program bots to play it, but you wouldn't be restricted by brainfuck
23:08:08 <kmc> i hear that in Israel you can put your religion as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or Communist
23:08:17 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/tmp/byterapers-modules-humorouscollection/swallow-sanovat_etta.xm except you need to know Finnish.
23:08:18 <kmc> and if there are enough Christians in a town the government builds a church
23:08:26 <kmc> and if there are enough Communists in a town the government builds a statue of Lenin
23:08:37 <kmc> ok I made up the last part
23:08:40 -!- impomatic has joined.
23:08:46 <elliott> i was liking that until you told me it was made up
23:08:47 <fizzie> I thought I googled that thing but it was my thing, how did that happen, it's a weird.
23:08:51 <elliott> what do they build if there are a lot of atheists
23:08:58 <fizzie> What the what, it's in Google.
23:09:19 -!- heroux has joined.
23:09:37 <fizzie> If I goggle for "byterapers humorouscollection", my own "tmp" thing is the first result it makes no sense what is this gaa.
23:09:51 <fizzie> Their own thing is just the third result.
23:10:04 <fizzie> I hope it's some kind of personalized search result.
23:10:11 <zzo38> I don't think it is the government's job to build a church or a statue of Lenin; well, not the federal government's job anyways.
23:10:20 <shachaf> @tell monqy what's with the fixed point of cos. you know that 0.7390851332151607 number what's with that.
23:11:41 <FreeFull> ftplike.com is the first result, their own thing is the second
23:12:01 <FreeFull> fizzie: What language google do you use?
23:12:03 <fizzie> I got those as second and thitd.
23:12:19 <fizzie> The lcom one, I think.
23:13:01 <FreeFull> fizzie: Still same thing for me
23:13:22 <FreeFull> fizzie: Tried pressing the hide personal results button?
23:13:30 <fizzie> It is a good thing none of you get sent to me.
23:13:44 <fizzie> I went into a different room already.
23:14:49 <FreeFull> The joys of floating point arithmetic
23:15:03 <fizzie> If I search it on this phone which is not inlogged, I get those two as first and second, then zem.fi/tmp as third.
23:15:15 <kmc> what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:15:17 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:52 <kmc> `quote nickel
23:15:52 -!- carado has joined.
23:15:54 <HackEgo> 481) <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't realise nickel apparently can't be shaped into a screw because of some fundamental feature of dwarven physics. \ 867) <zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? <kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
23:16:14 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:17:16 -!- heroux has joined.
23:17:17 <hagb4rd> `addquote FreeFull>> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:21 <HackEgo> 1000) FreeFull>> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:44 <shachaf> imo leave that quote unädded
23:17:48 <hagb4rd> `addquote <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:17:52 <HackEgo> 1000) <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:18:10 <kmc> shachaf: even by your standards that's a p. gratuitous diuresis
23:18:13 <Bike> i feel it's appropriate that the 1000th quote destroy the format
23:18:55 <shachaf> kmc: you got a problem with it?
23:19:07 <kmc> equality on CReal is not decdable
23:19:30 <kmc> at some precision it will give up and say True even if they really differ slightly
23:19:40 <shachaf> > 1 == (1+2**(-100) :: CReal)
23:19:44 <shachaf> > 1 == (1+2**(-1000) :: CReal)
23:19:45 <hagb4rd> is there no decimal-based rational notation in haskell? im sure ther is
23:19:57 <Bike> > 4.7 :: Ratio
23:19:59 <shachaf> I think it was 40 digits or so.
23:19:59 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `GHC.Real.Ratio'
23:20:10 <kmc> i think it's p. easy to produce two CReals which are true iff goldbach's conjecture holds
23:20:11 <Bike> maybe it was toRatio or something.
23:20:21 <kmc> maybe not using the public CReal API
23:20:27 <kmc> which are equal
23:20:31 <kmc> stfulliott
23:20:45 <shachaf> > toRational (2**(-1000) :: CReal)
23:20:59 <shachaf> wow creal more like badreal
23:21:06 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
23:21:07 <lambdabot> class (Num a, Ord a) => Real a where
23:21:08 <kmc> *Exception: not actually a statically safe language
23:21:15 <Bike> > toRational 4.7
23:21:17 <lambdabot> 5291729562160333 % 1125899906842624
23:21:26 <kmc> shachaf: trick question because all reals are bad
23:21:33 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
23:21:40 <Fiora> Bike: what in the world happened there O_O
23:21:41 <shachaf> kmc: Almost all reals are bad.
23:21:45 <kmc> > 2.5 :: Rational
23:21:46 <shachaf> I.e. all but a countable number.
23:22:00 <shachaf> Fiora: It converted the Double 4.7 to the nearest Rational approximation.
23:22:01 <Bike> Fiora: floats happened
23:22:06 <oerjan> fizzie: i get zem.fi as no. 4
23:22:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <FreeFull> (0.1 + 0.2) == 0.3 <lambdabot> False <FreeFull>The joys of floating point arithmetic <kmc>what do they say? I <2.9999999999743 floating point
23:22:25 <HackEgo> 811) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
23:22:26 <HackEgo> 267) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
23:22:28 <Fiora> so it went 4.7 -> double -> rational
23:22:29 <kmc> yeah it's not a great quote
23:22:30 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:22:46 <shachaf> Fiora: Yes, it converted (47%10) to a Double and then back to a Rational.
23:22:52 <hagb4rd> must be sth like 314*10^(-2)
23:22:56 <elliott> `addquote this space for rent
23:23:23 <hagb4rd> plain old decimal point shift
23:23:34 <Sgeo> quote 1000 will almost certainly not say 1000
23:23:40 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: Could it be quote 1001?
23:24:19 <shachaf> elliott: If you'd written that alternative quote thing this wouldn't be happening. :-(
23:24:32 <Fiora> ahhhh so that works
23:24:44 <Fiora> > sqrt(2) :: Rational
23:24:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Real.Rational)
23:25:02 <Bike> haskell nooooo
23:25:08 <shachaf> Fiora: When you write a decimal number like 4.7, it turns into (fromRational (4.7 the actual Rational)).
23:25:20 <Sgeo> I had another ultra productive day of 1 commit
23:25:20 <shachaf> Like 40 means (fromInteger (40 the actual Integer))
23:25:38 <Sgeo> Also, I GOT TO USE HASKELL ON THE JOB!
23:26:11 <kmc> what didy ou use
23:26:26 <elliott> haskell+java a s ynergy made in hevaen
23:26:34 <hagb4rd> why are you such an instant vicious bitch hoover?
23:26:50 <Bike> with my brains and your brawn we'll make a great team
23:27:24 <shachaf> with my assocative operation and your identity, this'll be so easy
23:27:28 <Sgeo> Java kept trying to run things like npm and grunt, but it was expecting a real executable, and all that Windows has for those are .cmd files
23:27:41 <Sgeo> So I made a small thing that is a .exe file that runs a .cmd file
23:28:05 <Sgeo> Realized later I should have used getProgName rather than hardcoding the name in
23:28:27 <Bike> somehow i doubt java lacks a call-shell thing
23:29:58 <Sgeo> It's not a matter of whether or not Java could do it, it's a matter of the code that would need to be modified possibly not being ours. Didn't feel like tampering with stuff just because I was having problems building
23:30:18 <Sgeo> Although I did tamper with something for that reason... but it was a good thing, I think
23:40:42 <hagb4rd> <Sgeo>Java kept trying to run things like npm and grunt, but it was expecting a real executable, and all that Wi ndows has for those are .cmd files <-- dunno the background, but windows executables are specified by the PATHEXT environment var.. (in CMD: SET PATHEXT=.COM;.EXE;.BAT;.CMD;.VBS;.VBE;.JS;.JSE;.WSF;.WSH;.MSC;.CPL;.IV)
23:40:59 <hagb4rd> further you can use FTYPE and ASSOC to specify execution procedure
23:41:14 <hagb4rd> (to see actual evn-var-settings just type SET)
23:42:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:48:17 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4ked.
23:50:24 <Sgeo> hagb4ked, I don't think that would help, necessarily?
23:50:37 <Sgeo> I was able to type without an extension at the command line
23:51:04 <Sgeo> Oh "PathExt environment variable returns a list of the file extensions that the operating system considers to be executable. When executing a command line that does not contain an extension, the command interpreter (cmd.exe) uses the value of this environment variable to determine which extensions to look for and in what order."
23:51:13 <Sgeo> Yeah, I think that's irrelevant? Not sure
23:51:33 <hagb4ked> really.. i do not know what you are doing
23:51:58 <hagb4ked> just caught that "windows executionable statement"
23:52:30 <Sgeo> Java was trying to execute npm (and other stuff) by some method
23:52:36 <hagb4ked> summing up, im not even sure if're using windows or just try to simulate win-like-behaviour or what ever
23:52:57 <Sgeo> That method apparently does not use the shell
23:54:12 <Sgeo> I think as long as I document my hack I don't care
23:54:17 <Sgeo> Well, I guess I do care somewhat
23:54:43 <hagb4ked> btw.. everything in windows uses the stdin and out.. like in unix.. there is a fully-functional pipe-system etc
23:54:45 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:55:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:55:31 <hagb4ked> the shell is just a user interface
23:56:30 -!- heroux has joined.
23:58:28 <Sgeo> Yes, but one that executes stuff like .cmd files
23:58:37 <Sgeo> .cmd I think aren't real programs
23:58:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:59:37 <hagb4ked> programs run programs in windows.. and they are not necessarily to be written in machinecode
23:59:59 <hagb4ked> .net programs are .exe files but NO REAL executables as you defined