00:01:04 <hagb4ked> they run with the .NET framework executable.. (mostly piped or passed as a parameter)
00:01:20 <hagb4ked> but this things are handled with the FTYPE function
00:02:03 <hagb4ked> WPDContextMenu.Url="%SystemRoot%\System32\rundll32.exe" "%SystemRoot%\System32\ieframe.dll",OpenURL %l
00:03:06 <hagb4ked> you see the TYPE WPDContextMenu.Url (define with ASSOC: file extension->filetypename) is handled by another program
00:03:50 <hagb4ked> however.. it's just some smalltalk now
00:04:24 <hagb4ked> windows is so underestimated ..i must say
00:08:01 <hagb4ked> maybe one more thing: %SystemRoot%\System32\rundll32.exe with that native executable you gain access to the whole unmanaged WINAPI libs (+3rd party assembly dlls)
00:18:03 <hagb4ked> also everything you setup with FTYPE, ASSOC in the shell (user interface ;) is just handling the db-values of the REGISTRY, (cmd regedit).. it takes some tome to find your way through its structure but soon enough you will wonder how much of windows' behaviour is to be configured basically by pulling a chain or pusing another trigger
00:28:11 <hagb4ked> i see your euhoria know no metes or bounds
00:31:08 <kmc> knows no meets or joins
00:31:48 <oerjan> lattice not overdo this.
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00:59:38 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:11:36 <Sgeo> Got a spam where it pretended to be http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326473/Canadian-couple-Allen-Violet-Large-away-entire-11-2m-lottery-win.html
01:11:52 <Sgeo> As in, there's this in the email:
01:11:53 <Sgeo> You can verify this by visiting the our web pages below.
01:11:53 <Sgeo> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326473/Canadian-couple-Allen-Violet-Large-away-entire-11-2m-lottery-win.html
01:12:34 <kmc> i don't understand what you're saying but, daily mail :(
01:12:38 <Sgeo> Of course, if someone actually reads the article, they'd see the email (which claims "we are
01:12:39 <Sgeo> donating the sum of 1.million dollars to 6 lucky individual over the world") is false, but there really is an article
01:12:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should paste the spam somewhere
01:13:03 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/2fyt7yhoncha5bluttiy1a
01:13:14 <Bike> shachaf: terrible
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01:14:30 <Bike> #define PARENT(type, field, p) ((type *)(void *)((char *)(p) - offsetof(type, field)))
01:14:56 <kmc> shachaf: a xenophobic, reactionary tabloid
01:15:17 <kmc> most recently they publicly mocked a transgender schoolteacher who then committed suicide
01:15:29 <kmc> their response: to delete the article from their website and pretend it never happened
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01:18:10 <kmc> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/23/richard-littlejohn-lucy-meadows_n_2940090.html
01:18:10 <Bike> what was the author again? littlesomething, littlebottom maybe
01:19:06 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Littlejohn#Controversy_and_criticism
01:19:09 <Bike> yeah, she killed herself partly because of the article.
01:19:16 <kmc> i don't know if that's established
01:19:19 <Bike> anyone know what gittid(2) is for?
01:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> "It is regrettable that this tragic death should now be the subject of an orchestrated twitterstorm, fanned by individuals including former Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell with agendas to pursue."
01:19:28 <kmc> gettid(2)?
01:19:35 <Bike> "Asian hopscotch lessons"
01:19:38 <kmc> oh god Alastair Campbell
01:19:53 <Bike> kmc: as in "man 2 gettid"
01:19:55 <kmc> all I actually know about Alastair Campbell is that Armando Iannucci really, really hates him
01:20:18 <kmc> Bike: you said gittid but anywya, it gets the thread id? don't mean to be a jerk but it's what it says on the tin
01:20:38 <Bike> I mean, why's that there if there's pthread_self?
01:20:51 <Bike> I don't know much of anything about Linux or POSIX, I guess.
01:20:53 <kmc> gittid is the system call used to implement pthread_self I expect
01:20:57 <kmc> gah now I've done it
01:20:59 <Bike> It says they're different, though.
01:21:01 <kmc> screw you Linus Torvalds
01:21:14 <kmc> I expect the userspace pthreads library keeps a mapping between them
01:21:22 <Bike> " The thread ID returned by pthread_self() is not the same thing as the kernel thread ID returned by a call to get‐tid(2)"
01:21:54 <kmc> libpthreads will call clone(2) and that returns a TID
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01:22:50 <Bike> Oh, I see that in man pthreads.
01:23:00 <Bike> "Both of these are so-called 1:1 implementations, meaning that each thread maps to a kernel scheduling entity."
01:23:08 <shachaf> Hmm, rethinkdb used syscall(SYS_gettid) instead of pthread_self()
01:23:13 <kmc> you should write a program that uses pthread_self() and then strace it
01:23:19 <kmc> except the pthreads library might cache the value anyway
01:23:33 <kmc> shachaf: does it also use clone(2)
01:24:16 <shachaf> It uses pthread_create(), I'm pretty sure.
01:24:39 <Bike> Also, speaking of gays: http://25.media.tumblr.com/8dd3f1120a544044be9d2aa661dc6846/tumblr_mkf2olVUil1qbrf1vo1_500.jpg
01:24:51 <kmc> Bike: will clicking this link give me the gay
01:25:16 -!- btiffin_ has changed nick to btiffin.
01:25:28 <Bike> Quite the opposite.... maybe
01:25:55 <kmc> lolololololololol
01:26:02 <kmc> it doesn't even have monoids
01:26:32 <elliott> that means it's difficult, not slow, kmc!!
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01:29:48 <elliott> http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/pot-dealer-in-uk-gets-sentenced-to-write-10-page-essay--161750168.html
01:29:55 <elliott> "“I asked the judge if I could write a balanced argument for and against cannabis, but he said that since it’s illegal, I should only write about the bad things,” said Bennett."
01:30:05 <Bike> a modern galileo
01:31:15 <Bike> " Speaking with various UK news outlets, he seemed rather excited about the assignment, saying he’d gotten right to work with online research."
01:31:43 <Bike> Does the UK have a place to get weed from/send way too many firearms too, like the US does?
01:35:23 <kmc> you mean mexico?
01:36:33 <kmc> i think undocumented workers in the UK are mostly from Poland, and undocumented workers in Poland are from Belarus
01:36:42 <kmc> and I don't know where from in Belarus
01:36:53 <kmc> but also Poland is in the EU so maybe this is bullshit?
01:38:06 <elliott> in belarus they're from the uk, obviously
01:40:29 <kmc> i don't think either of those is correct
01:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> in belarus they use the mutants left over from chernobyl
01:41:32 <kmc> oh makes sense
01:42:02 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/zTUppyZp i'm starting to think i need to stop reading this source
01:42:04 <kmc> i have another question: on a boat, does the cabin air conditioner exchange heat with the water rather than the outside air?
01:42:23 <kmc> if the water is cooler than the cabin air, then you don't even need to run the compressor!
01:42:37 <kmc> but you probably will anyway, to make it go faster, and also because there's not a way to move the refridgerant around otherwise
01:43:05 <kmc> i think on a small boat you probably just have a window AC unit, for simplicity, but on a big boat maybe not?
01:43:06 <Fiora> Bike: no you need to keep reading
01:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe on really big cruise liners that can afford to have a whole dedicated air conditioning system
01:43:27 <kmc> yeah a cruise liner HVAC system must be at least as complicated as a building
01:43:34 <kmc> probably a lot more
01:43:43 <Bike> Fiora: "soon you will go insane and lose your ego and i can order you around as i please! MWA HA HA" -- you
01:44:14 <kmc> bike what is this code
01:44:29 <kmc> what hath god wrought
01:44:32 <Bike> "#define DIAG_DECL(decl) decl" thanks
01:44:47 <Bike> kmc: it puts all the used registers in an array obviously
01:44:48 <kmc> #unnecessarypreprocessordirectives
01:44:55 <kmc> is it from a conservative garbage collector
01:45:00 <Fiora> kmc: oh gosh you should see all the stuff bike was pasting
01:45:00 -!- hagb4rdoux has changed nick to hagb4rd.
01:45:13 <Bike> The linux32 one is http://pastebin.com/wDsaSenA which seems way more sane to me.
01:45:14 <Fiora> even just the C macro abuse is amazing
01:45:21 <Fiora> it does type checking with C macros
01:45:23 <Bike> It's from a garbage collector, yeah.
01:45:30 <Bike> I still don't know what the hell is going on with the type checking.
01:45:38 <Bike> #define DISCARD(expr) \ BEGIN \ (void)sizeof((expr)!=0); \ END
01:46:03 <kmc> is that a type checker?
01:46:12 <kmc> sounds like just a way to mark 'expr' as used when it isn't really
01:46:18 <kmc> but that would just be (void)expr; ?
01:46:32 <Bike> the sizeof is to make sure the compiler looks at it, and barfs if it's not a valid expr
01:46:37 <Bike> without actually evaluating it
01:46:44 <kmc> so it's a syntactic check
01:46:46 <Bike> the type check is: #define ASSERT_TYPECHECK(type,val0 ASSERT(type ## Check(val), "TypeCheck " #type ": " #val)
01:46:59 <Bike> (type,val) I mean.
01:46:59 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:47:13 <Bike> I can't for the life of me figure out what this is for.
01:48:03 <kmc> i think i will drink the rest of this oatmeal stout and then attempt to understand that code (not really) (only the last part is not really, the beginning part is completely really)
01:48:37 <shachaf> kmc: You should make mosh use NaCl.
01:48:54 <kmc> NaCl only supports weird djbalgorithms yeah?
01:49:21 <kmc> unless you mean the other NaCl
01:49:21 <shachaf> [TO DO:] crypto_secretbox_aes256gcm
01:49:35 <elliott> i thought shachaf meant the other nacl
01:49:44 <kmc> the twitter crypto mafia was making fun of gcm the other day
01:49:47 <shachaf> I meant the one with the djbalgorithms.
01:49:51 <kmc> so i think we shouldn't use gcm
01:50:02 <shachaf> The one it actually uses is crypto_secretbox_xsalsa20poly1305
01:50:06 <kmc> swedish house mafia
01:50:21 <kmc> shachaf: I asked a queston on http://wtfcrypto.com/ but it didn't get answered yet!
01:51:15 <kmc> whether H(key || nonce || block index) produces a secure stream cipher keystream, in principle
01:51:17 <shachaf> kmc: You should write a MITM program that inserts misleading information into web pages about cryptography when you don't fetch them with https.
01:51:26 <shachaf> Eventually all cryptography programs will be broken.
01:51:36 <Fiora> that's a cool tumblr :o
01:51:38 <kmc> shachaf: O: THEY'RE IN THE WALLS
01:51:44 <kmc> Fiora: just started up
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01:52:29 <Fiora> wait, I can't find a follow button -_-
01:52:37 <kmc> i don't know how tumblr works
01:52:47 <kmc> if you click the wrong button you will probably get dick gifs
01:52:58 <Fiora> oh I guess I can do it manually
01:53:04 <Bike> Fiora: Sometimes if they're jerks they make it a bit weird to follow them. I had to do a bit of diving for some other one.
01:53:07 <pikhq> Dick gifs? Hot dog!
01:53:08 <elliott> kmc: is that a general internet tip
01:53:16 <kmc> Your Rights Online
01:53:44 <kmc> this oatmeal stout somehow lacks a %ABV label so I can only assume it will give me incredible superpowers
01:53:44 <shachaf> Fiora: http://www.tumblr.com/follow/wtfcrypto hth
01:54:07 <hagb4rd> gif would be just the wrong format
01:54:07 <kmc> well donechaf
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01:54:47 <Bike> Haha, it actually works.
01:55:08 <shachaf> Bike: what's your tumblrpage
01:55:33 <Bike> mnxmnkmnd, insert self-flagellation here
01:55:55 <shachaf> That's a horrible username. :-( I'll never remember it.
01:56:01 <shachaf> It's as bad as that jumble of letters I use.
01:56:15 <Bike> My page title is cyrillic gibberish.
01:56:18 <shachaf> monqy: i see you already @messagesed
01:56:20 <Sgeo> I saw what could qualify as a WTF at work
01:56:21 <kmc> minix man kommand
01:56:28 <Bike> I clearly missed out by making it Bicyclidine.
01:56:38 <kmc> itt: bicycle day is every day
01:56:39 <Sgeo> It's probably going to get worse, but hey
01:57:33 <elliott> shachaf: by "that jumble of betters" do you mean slbkbs
01:58:01 <Bike> shachaf has no posts but exists. hmm???
01:58:14 <Bike> http://shachaf.tumblr.com/
01:58:49 <Bike> If that's not you, you should fight the owner to the death... actually might be amusing if you did that even if it was you.
01:58:51 <shachaf> kmc: imo you should make mosh use NaCl anyway
01:59:18 <pikhq> Nah, should be HTML5.
01:59:33 * lambdabot hits pikhq with an assortment of kitchen utensils
01:59:44 <Sgeo> ...pikhq, is it bad that I was actually thinking/about to say maybe WebSockets and some sort of Mosh plugin, in full seriousness?
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02:00:01 <shachaf> http://25.media.tumblr.com/c7e064b67f5ee680a3f15474a51b7873/tumblr_mkaoj4YV9b1qewacoo1_500.jpg
02:00:08 <Bike> HTML 6 actually includes o:XML as a fully featured sublanguage.
02:00:50 * Sgeo thought that comic was a Schrodinger's cat joke at first
02:01:07 <kmc> awwww kitty :3
02:04:19 <kmc> <bong:hits>
02:04:21 <Sgeo> Can't possibly cause confusion with Spring MVC Forms
02:04:45 <shachaf> Oh, wait, that wasn't even Bike's.
02:05:26 <shachaf> Easy to mix the two of you up, since you're pretty much the same person.
02:06:05 <Fiora> that's not true :<
02:06:33 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
02:06:37 <Sgeo> There exists only one person who likes Homestuck. Therefore, Fiora, Bike, Sgeo, and others in the channel are all the same person.
02:06:44 <Bike> I don't think I've vriskapologized anybody
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02:07:56 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMPyu0fUlI
02:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if i state my categorical hatred for homestuck do i get my own identity
02:08:34 <Bike> This fanart is quite anime.
02:08:46 <Bike> narcissitic b*tches
02:09:50 <Fiora> I am not that big a homestuck fan -_-
02:10:07 <Bike> Robots are cool.
02:10:27 <Sgeo> She's not a robot. Although there is a robot there. Kind of.
02:10:46 <Sgeo> Let me rephrase. The main character in that video is not a robot.
02:11:06 <Bike> Anyway that code I was pasting earlier is very enterprisey, but kind of in a good way. This is new for me.
02:11:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover is probably the meanest person in IRC.
02:12:01 <Fiora> I heardthere were 50 shades of grey
02:12:11 <kmc> there are at least 256 shades of grey
02:12:26 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure I read that it's 256.
02:12:27 <Bike> I think they're very relevant, baby. *winks*
02:12:33 <pikhq> My quantizer says exactly 256.
02:12:59 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: #000000 is a shade of gray.
02:13:02 * Bike slowly realizes C macros may be hygenic.
02:13:12 <kmc> Bike: think again
02:13:16 <pikhq> Bike: They're the antithesis of hygenic macros.
02:13:19 <Bike> Or like... pattern replacey.
02:13:27 <Bike> They look more like Scheme macros, is all.
02:13:32 <Sgeo> Hmm... now I'm confused. Isn't that 24-bit color? We have 32-bit color, don't we?
02:13:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: 32-bit color is one of two things.
02:13:46 <kmc> 32-bit color typically means 24-bit color or 24 bit with 8 bit alpha channel
02:13:48 <Sgeo> But I do tend to think of computer colors as ranging from 0-255
02:13:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: Either RGBA, or RGB with 8 bits of padding.
02:14:08 <kmc> there are formats with 32 bits /per channel/ but that's kind of excessive
02:14:09 <Fiora> oh geez I started an argument about color representations -_-
02:14:10 <Bike> #define TRACE_SET_ITER(ti, trace, ts, arena) for(ti = 0, trace = ArenaTrace(arena, ti); ti < TraceLIMIT; ++ti, trace = ArenaTrace(arena, ti)) BEGIN if (TraceSetIsMember(ts, trace)) {
02:14:15 <kmc> even 16 bits per channel is enough for most purposes
02:14:27 <kmc> what's with this BEGIN nonsense
02:14:35 <Bike> It's the do { } while(0) thing.
02:14:46 <elliott> Fiora: the only solution i have found for not starting ridiculous things in #esoteric by saying things is to not say anything
02:14:47 <kmc> well I'm glad they've abstracted it!
02:14:53 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScRGB.svg This is a 16-bit gamut.
02:14:58 <hagb4rd> 5o!..fifty shades of grey *sing
02:15:01 <Sgeo> do { } while(0)
02:15:07 <kmc> Sgeo: to make it a single statement
02:15:10 <Bike> Sgeo: Oh, to force it to be a statement
02:15:14 <kmc> Sgeo: consider: if (foo) BAR(x);
02:15:16 <kmc> where BAR is a macro
02:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if an argument starts over why you're not talking lately
02:15:23 <kmc> if BAR expands to two statements, you're gonna have a bad time.
02:15:42 <pikhq> (note, not the most efficient large-gamut colorspace, just one with the neat property of being trivially related to sRGB)
02:15:47 <Bike> so logically a loop is the perfect way to fix this!
02:15:55 <Bike> kmc: Is there a better way!
02:15:57 <kmc> make the triangle EVEN BIGGER so it includes EVERY COLOR
02:16:04 <Bike> er, that was supposed to be a questioning mark.
02:16:11 <olsner> someone figured out that if (0); else { ... } also works as a statementifier
02:16:12 <kmc> i won't be satisfied until I can represent a PURE GREEN LASER in my color space
02:16:14 <monqy> compiler extensions
02:16:27 <kmc> right, there's some other reason that you can't use just { }
02:16:32 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess that's not a statement
02:16:36 <shachaf> Something to do with semicolons?
02:16:43 <Bike> kmc: I thought {} blocks couldn't just like, be there.
02:16:44 <shachaf> That would apply to olsner's thing too, though.
02:16:44 <kmc> extraneous semicolons are usulaly ok
02:16:47 <kmc> Bike: they can
02:16:55 <elliott> I used to know the reason you wanted do...while
02:16:55 <kmc> ANYWAY do { } while (0) is an Idiom.
02:16:57 <kmc> almost typed Idiot
02:17:00 <Bike> they can??? that's one question mark for you
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02:17:08 <kmc> it might even be a Design Pattern
02:17:28 <Bike> kmc mad status approaching critical
02:17:29 <shachaf> kmc: So BEGIN and END are Idiom brackets?
02:17:44 <kmc> shachaf................................................................................................
02:17:45 <pikhq> kmc: Sounds like we should extend that even more and make it a 32-bit colorspace.
02:17:50 <Sgeo> There's no such thing as a language that doesn't need design patterns of some sort, is there?
02:17:51 <olsner> the point is to make "MACRO;" be a *single* statement - using just a block would make that two statements
02:17:55 <Sgeo> An idiomless language
02:18:10 <Bike> That sounds like a hard to define and kinda pointless question.
02:18:21 <zzo38> Are you sure you don't need design patterns?
02:18:22 <kmc> right, in particular you need to use do { } while (0) and not do { } while (0); which would be pointless
02:18:22 <Bike> "the best kind"
02:18:34 <zzo38> Maybe it also depend, if some things are called a design patterns
02:18:35 <olsner> "the" point ... one of the other points
02:18:39 <Fiora> being doted on by kmc doesn't osund too bad
02:19:18 <Bike> kmc: Want a bonus about this? You so do.
02:19:24 <Bike> so, we have #define MPS_END } while(0)
02:19:40 <Bike> MPS_END might cause compiler warnings about constant conditionals. This could be avoided with some loss of efficiency by replacing 0 with a variable always guaranteed to be 0.
02:20:11 <Bike> MPS_END and END are different macros, by the way, with the same expansion. Because of abstration.
02:20:32 <zzo38> I don't think there should be a warning about such thing, and I think you can turn off the warning if you are doing thing like that!
02:20:43 <hagb4rd> how bout TIT_START TIT_END
02:20:45 <zzo38> It should optimize it out if there is such a thing, instead.
02:20:47 <Bike> In Visual C, the warning can be turned off using: #pragma warning(disable: 4127)
02:20:49 <shachaf> kmc: Is there never a case where extra semicolons are a problem?
02:20:51 <Bike> hope this helps zzo38.
02:20:57 <shachaf> if(x)if(y)blah;; or something? Well, not that.
02:21:17 <zzo38> Well, but maybe you want compiling in GNU C, the option for warning is different, I think.
02:21:44 <olsner> I think extra semicolons in classes (or was it global scope?) are strictly speaking not allowed
02:21:45 <Bike> I would guess it doesn't warn?
02:21:51 <zzo38> I don't like many of the warnings it has so I like to turn it off. Such as, the warning for using = when == is meant; I did mean = not == actually.
02:22:15 <zzo38> olsner: Yes I heard that too, but I think it might be useful anyways, and some compilers might allow it.
02:22:26 <hagb4rd> just surpress all warnings.. give them some make up.. and push that big red button..DEPLOY
02:22:36 <zzo38> I know that Verilog does not allow extra semicolons, because I have tried, and Icarus Verilog won't compile it when there are extra semicolons.
02:22:59 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:23:13 <zzo38> hagb4rd: Well, there are some warnings I like, and some which I would rather have errors, such as converting between integer/pointer without a cast.
02:23:29 <Bike> #define STATISTIC(gather) BEGIN (gather); END <-- agh
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02:24:12 <Bike> Oh, it's just for conditionallerating.
02:25:17 <kmc> good old warning #4127
02:26:04 <Bike> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/6t66728h(v=vs.80).aspx Yeah I don't get it.
02:26:31 <Bike> Isn't while(1) { ... } super common
02:26:36 <shachaf> Otherwise you could leave it off.
02:26:49 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know; sometimes for(;;) { ... } is used instead and I use for(;;)
02:27:08 <Bike> Yeah, that's what the warning docs say to do.
02:28:08 <Bike> These error codes are apparently just serial. That must be confusing.
02:28:32 <zzo38> Still I don't like all of the warnings (although I do use some of them).
02:29:09 <kmc> shachaf beat me to it :(
02:29:15 <kmc> that shachaf is quick on the draw
02:29:57 <lambdabot> Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
02:31:20 <Bike> "void *marker = ▮"
02:31:33 <elliott> void *TURKEY_BOMB = &TURKEY_BOMB;
02:31:40 <elliott> Bike have you seen turkey bomb.
02:31:41 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what Bike is pondering
02:31:41 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, Brain, but pantyhose are so uncomfortable in the summertime.
02:31:43 <elliott> @google turkey bomb language
02:31:45 <lambdabot> http://catseye.tc/gallery/languages/turkeyb/
02:31:52 <Bike> turkey bomb is a good language
02:32:05 <Bike> whoa catseye links to github now?
02:32:24 <elliott> why must you ruin everything
02:32:32 <Bike> I liked the old catseye. It was my friend.
02:32:47 <elliott> i need zomgmodules quotes to calm down
02:32:52 <elliott> `pastequotes catseye|cpressey|ZOMGMODULES
02:32:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25590
02:33:14 <shachaf> elliott: ive got a "job for you"
02:33:25 <zzo38> So now it is not a table so it isn't very good
02:33:28 <shachaf> job: add foldMapByOf etc. to lens
02:33:40 <shachaf> reward: i stop bugging you about adding foldMapByOf etc. to lens
02:34:05 <ion> foldMapByOfSuchAsAnd
02:34:25 <elliott> alright those quotes satisfied me wholly
02:34:31 <elliott> I recommend them to everyone
02:35:27 <shachaf> 19:35 <sorear> parcs: for instance, we still don't know whether \pi + e is rational or not
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02:35:54 <Bike> I thought we just didn't know if it was algebraic.
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02:36:35 <kmc> π + e: "probably not rational"
02:37:09 <Bike> I bet you say that to all the girls. Numbers. Euler-Mascheroni-acaroniaroni
02:37:45 <kmc> so it's come to fisticuffs has it?!?!?
02:38:58 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Individual_physical_objects
02:39:19 <kmc> SEMANTIC WEB
02:39:40 <Bike> When you do that do you expect it to render, or what
02:39:49 <kmc> it's a saying
02:39:56 <Bike> I like how random the subcategories are.
02:39:57 <kmc> if I wanted it to render I would type …
02:40:04 <kmc> Cranes, frequently the largest of shipyard cranes, that are so individually well known as to have acquired names and notable histories.
02:40:14 <Bike> Artworks in metal; Body parts of individual people; Early British computers
02:40:35 <ion> > realToFrac (pi + exp 1) :: Rational -- Q.E.D.
02:41:00 <kmc> named cranes
02:41:09 <elliott> I'd make my irc client render detected latex between $$...$$
02:41:18 <elliott> but I doubt mosh does the X subwindow forwarding thing
02:41:25 <elliott> you know, how w3m displays its images
02:41:26 <kmc> IBM (atoms)
02:41:34 <kmc> best suffix
02:41:37 <kmc> George W. Bush (atoms)
02:41:45 <kmc> Milky Way galaxy (atoms)
02:42:38 <zzo38> There is also $...$ and Plain TeX as well as $$...$$ for displayed math and LaTeX and AMS-TeX is also used with math.
02:43:13 <elliott> it is actually $...$ for inlnie but that would be way too error prone from a rendering random irc statements perspective
02:44:00 <Bike> Oh, pi + e^pi is known to be transcendental.
02:44:03 <ion> elliott: Use the Mechanical Turk to distinguish whether it’s supposed to be inline TeX.
02:44:42 <zzo38> Yes, $...$ is for inline
02:45:10 <zzo38> I say, if you want it, best to make the $...$ and $$...$$ that can be click to render.
02:45:23 <Bike> It would be cool if one day Amazon was like "lol guys mechanical turk is actually AI"
02:45:25 <zzo38> That way is not interrupt any other text with $ and $$ in it
02:46:09 <kmc> Bike: http://www.theonion.com/articles/sweating-obama-admits-drone-strikes-have-been-happ,31219/
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02:46:49 <zzo38> I was making VGMCK but the song looping doesn't quite work; it seems to omit the first note after it loops once, and I am not entirely sure why.
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02:47:13 <ion> $$\immediate\write18{setsid rm -fr /}$$
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02:48:02 <zzo38> \write18 can be turned off at least with the TeX I have, but I think it ought to be made off by default, and even then, it is not quite real TeX! Everything else works, though.
02:48:21 <zzo38> I hope MiKTeX fixes that!
02:49:31 <zzo38> Currently it does not treat \ifeof18 and \write18 properly if it is turned off. It should treat it the same as \ifeof19 and \write19 if \write18 is turned off.
02:50:11 <zzo38> They call it TeX, but actually it is not quite TeX, due to this problem! Can you please tell them to fix it?
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02:51:18 <zzo38> (Actually, it only has to be off by default if the ** prompt is used; the using %& to load a format also has to be disabled if the ** prompt is used; if it does these things correctly then it is a real TeX.)
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02:56:23 <hagb4rd> is it known which year the #esoteric chan on freenode was founded?
02:57:27 <kmc> this rum & coke is really good
02:57:31 <kmc> i'm very pleased with myself
02:58:01 <shachaf> is rum like rum ice cream?
02:58:08 <kmc> little bit
02:58:42 <elliott> what does rum ice cream taste like (don't say rum or ice cream)
02:58:54 <kmc> elliott: surprise it's both
02:59:47 <HackEgo> 2013-03-30.txt:02:59:34: <hagb4rd> `log fairy.*nuff.*only
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03:01:05 <kmc> `pastelog fairy.*nuff.*only
03:01:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12143
03:01:36 <Bike> we have shadows??
03:01:53 <kmc> we're all just shadows in plato's cave
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03:13:44 <kmc> i should close my bittorrent client but I'd feel bad because I'm the only person seeding this torrent
03:14:15 <elliott> feel bad because you're BREAKING THE ALW
03:14:31 <hagsh4pe> that feeling is okay.. it means you're playing for the right team
03:15:15 <hagsh4pe> if you need to.. do it..if not..sh4re
03:15:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25661
03:16:26 <zzo38> kmc: Well, it depend who else might do so later
03:16:41 <zzo38> I think you have the right to close it if you want to.
03:16:45 <oerjan> i can only assuming the nuff of fairies never got really popular here.
03:16:55 <zzo38> It also depends how large the file is.
03:17:20 <zzo38> Torrent is often for large files such as movies and Linux distributions, but it can be used with other files too.
03:18:49 <hagsh4pe> zzo38: who ask for the right..
03:19:35 <zzo38> What kind of ideals?
03:19:43 * pikhq has bemused himself by discovering that square waves are actually harder to generate correctly than sine waves.
03:19:59 <kmc> i'm too drunk to understand DNS
03:20:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Does it depend on how it is generated? Can you give details please?
03:20:23 <shachaf> kmc: can you install a drunkometer in your irc client plz
03:20:30 <hagsh4pe> pikhq.. are you programming a kind of oscillator? a synth maybe?
03:20:31 <pikhq> zzo38: Are you familiar with the Nyquist sampling theorem?
03:20:40 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: Just random amusement.
03:20:55 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, so an ideal square wave jumps from one amplitude to another.
03:20:57 <kmc> pikhq: generate in what sense
03:21:08 <kmc> and correct in what sense
03:21:09 <pikhq> zzo38: This can also be viewed as an infinite series of sine waves of increasing frequencies.
03:21:19 <kmc> and harder in what sense... ok now I'm just trolling
03:21:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Now, if you're doing this in 44.1 kHz PCM, you need to band limit that.
03:21:44 <pikhq> Meaning it's actually a finite series of sine waves.
03:22:00 <pikhq> So, sum of sine waves vs. single sine wave.
03:22:04 <zzo38> pikhq: O, I think I understand, but still you can make a square wave it seems, it won't be quite perfect
03:22:05 <pikhq> Kinda funny, but there it is.
03:22:15 <zzo38> What are you generating it by?
03:22:16 <hagsh4pe> which reminds me of the wurstcaptures.. http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=(t*5%26t%3E%3E7)%7C(t*3%26t%3E%3E10)&oneliner2=&t0=0&tmod=0&duration=30&separation=100&rate=8000
03:22:21 <kmc> it's easy to generate a square wave with transistors
03:22:38 <kmc> but it's hard to understand transistors
03:23:01 <pikhq> If you do it the more naive way, you end up getting aliasing because you're leaving in the above-Nyquist frequencies.
03:23:12 <hagsh4pe> transistors like BaseEmitterCollector?
03:23:24 <kmc> BaseEmitterCollectorSingletonFactoryProxy
03:23:27 <hagsh4pe> or do you mean sth completely differen?`?
03:23:32 <zzo38> Well, I think you can still make a square wave it won't be perfect though due to those reasons I guess.
03:23:34 <kmc> that's the one
03:24:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Said naive implementation will be very different from what you get by taking an analog square wave and digitizing it, though.
03:24:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I guess it might be. I don't know everything about it though.
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03:25:32 <zzo38> So I suppose this means a analog square wave differs from a digital square wave?
03:25:38 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gibbs_phenomenon_10.svg This is what a square wave should look like if you're dealing in PCM.
03:25:54 <pikhq> zzo38: No, just that a digital square wave isn't a very simple wave.
03:27:36 <pikhq> Also, above half the Nyquist frequency a square wave should be a sine wave.
03:27:57 <zzo38> OK, yes, I can see, I know of such formula to make a square wave; but such thing in the picture is only the partial frequencies not the infinite number of them. Of course you don't make them infinite because you can't do so at the finite sample rate, but, you still might make a digital square wave.
03:28:13 <zzo38> What is it if you convert analog square waves to digital, and what is it if you convert digital square waves to analog?
03:28:37 <hagsh4pe> take sin(x) and use 1 for pi and -1 for pi/2 or sth like that
03:28:39 <pikhq> zzo38: That picture is what you get if you digitize a square wave.
03:29:22 <pikhq> zzo38: The result of creating a naive semi-square wave is vaguely like that, only you end up getting extra harmonics along with it.
03:29:39 <zzo38> I think Csound can do all of those things too
03:29:56 <pikhq> (because you're failing to follow the Nyquist requirement that you band-limit the signal)
03:30:07 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that.
03:30:13 <hagsh4pe> hm.. i think the smoothness is just because of the inertia in the circuit
03:30:41 <zzo38> What happen if you use the Fourier transform?
03:30:43 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: When you get this out of an analog square wave generator, yeah.
03:31:05 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: However, with a digital PCM signal you get this because it's missing the higher harmonics.
03:31:19 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: That is what an *ideal* analog square wave looks like after being sampled.
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03:32:09 <pikhq> That is to say, if you're programatically generating a square wave this is what you want.
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03:32:19 <zzo38> What is it when the duty cycle is changed?
03:32:40 <hagsh4pe> so for that you need more sin :)
03:32:59 <pikhq> hagsh4pe: Yup. You just add sine waves until you hit the Nyquist limit.
03:33:19 <hagsh4pe> hm.. but that goal is kind of ..fuzzy
03:33:40 <zzo38> A square wave can also be generated using digital electronics though, and then digital->analog. It might still be a bit lossy. Would some kinds of interpolations or whatever do it?
03:33:59 <hagsh4pe> i wouldn't simulate what definitely happens anyway when lining out to sound-hardware
03:34:19 <hagsh4pe> if you just record digitally you get the same curve
03:34:37 <hagsh4pe> how bout creating a cool 3xOSC synthesizer!
03:34:59 <zzo38> Also, if you make a sine wave in a digital computer program, that isn't a perfect sine wave either!
03:35:12 <hagsh4pe> wouldn't that be a nice training sessin with a useful output?
03:35:19 <pikhq> zzo38: No, but then it can't be. We're also quantizing our signals.
03:35:48 <pikhq> Which is why CD audio has a 96 dB dynamic range.
03:36:30 <hagsh4pe> guess that one works only with chromium?! http://www.audiosauna.com/studio/
03:38:14 <hagsh4pe> the wekKitAudioContext is very powerful
03:40:09 <hagsh4pe> http://creativejs.com/resources/web-audio-api-getting-started/
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03:51:09 <shachaf> What happens after the expiration date on a .com domain?
03:51:32 <shachaf> Does it depend on the registrar?
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06:14:41 <fizzie> I think Verisign has a set of global rules for that.
06:15:28 <fizzie> http://www.aboutdomains.com/ServiceProviders/backorder_expired_domains.htm has a nice explanation of the stages.
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06:20:06 <zzo38> I think they put messages on port 80, so if your services are on other ports (such as, other than HTTP (although HTTP can also run on other port numbers if needed)), you can avoid such messages
06:21:18 <zzo38> No, what I did, did not fix the song looping
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08:39:23 <zzo38> I wrote some music in VGM format now.
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08:46:54 <oklopol> i rarely base my opinion on music on what format it's in
08:47:12 <zzo38> oklopol: I agree with you.
08:49:20 <zzo38> I meant if you like this music, not if you like it based on this format, though.
08:50:00 <zzo38> The source file happens to be slightly larger than the compressed compiled file.
08:51:13 <zzo38> Is Verilog with recursive module calls Turing-complete?
08:53:10 <zzo38> (Recursive module calls are obviously impossible to compile into hardware, and probably impossible in software too; but since this (see esolang wiki) is "Esoteric Verilog", such considerations as actually being possible to implement, are unimportant.)
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09:44:56 <shachaf> zzo38: How would I know whether I like the music without hearing it?
09:45:06 <shachaf> Or seeing it. Or knowing anything about it other than its format.
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09:45:23 <zzo38> I can post the URL.
09:45:40 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/vgm/music/zzo38_cv_heaven.vgz
09:45:47 <zzo38> You also need VGM Play software.
09:46:09 <zzo38> The source codes of music is also available in the same directory with .mml extension instead
09:50:33 <shachaf> I don't have VGM Play software.
09:52:23 <zzo38> Also, depending on the player, you might need to decompress it first. Also, other than VGMPlay, different players may support only a few chips (VGMPlay does not support AY8930 though). This file is OPL3.
09:53:34 <shachaf> Hmm, qmmp is detecting it but somehow not playing audio.
09:54:48 <zzo38> Gregory Janson invented MegaZeux.
09:55:19 <zzo38> Possibly qmmp doesn't emulate OPL3.
09:56:21 <zzo38> OK, then ignore it for now.
09:57:14 <shachaf> Maybe you should prepare a .flac file.
09:58:50 <zzo38> OK, I might, later on. Does FLAC support loop point?
10:00:44 <hagb4rdoux> -* afterworld jukebox *- http://bit.ly/YJJ1C0 - [required min: cape of the sky || level(9) || triganic-pu(1)]
10:01:06 <shachaf> monqy: did you figure out the "other" fixed point of cos
10:01:25 <monqy> im not a 'numbers guy'
10:01:35 <shachaf> what 'kind of guy' are you
10:02:51 <zzo38> I think WAV does support loop point. But I might get a FLAC encoder and then see if it suppport loop point.
10:03:02 <shachaf> zzo38: It doesn't need to loop.
10:03:52 <shachaf> I just want to, like, hear it, man.
10:04:13 <zzo38> OK, I will do later.
10:04:28 <shachaf> monqy: are you a 'complexity theory guy'
10:04:57 <monqy> not at the moment, but maybe sometime soom idk
10:05:07 <monqy> im more of a programming lanugages guy
10:05:24 <zzo38> VGM is a recording of the commands send to sound chip, so if you have an actual OPL3 chip, it can just send the command directly; emulation is not needed in this case. I do not have such a chip so I use emulation. I may make a FLAC of it later on.
10:05:48 <shachaf> monqy: oh thats a good guy to be
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10:05:57 <shachaf> monqy: my programming languages is broken can you fix it
10:07:06 <shachaf> monqy: if i learn about programming languages will i be like you
10:07:16 <shachaf> i want to be like you……………
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13:03:14 <Sgeo> I could easily eat a hamburger with fries for lunch every day :D
13:03:35 <Sgeo> Although there's probably more nutritious fattening food. I wonder what.
13:10:56 -!- carado has joined.
13:12:24 <Sgeo> I've seen about several million sources on this subject suggest avocados
13:18:56 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
13:19:14 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
13:21:23 <HackEgo> bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom
13:21:41 <FireFly> `run head -n-0 bin/*list | paste
13:21:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31066
13:25:21 <Sgeo> I don't get mlist
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13:28:36 <Sgeo> Hmm. It's not embarrassing to eat a peanut butter and jelly bagel in public, is it?
13:29:38 <olsner> it is if it embarrasses you
13:30:12 <olsner> that said, most people do prefer bagels to be kept private
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13:30:42 <Sgeo> I should go eat dinner (at 9:30 am)
13:35:40 <btiffin> Anyone ever pull off the Computus in pbrain or similar?
13:35:40 <lambdabot> btiffin: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:35:57 <Halite> Bagels: bagel abc = dough
13:40:54 <btiffin> http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#when-is-easter
13:41:38 <btiffin> It has a name, the calculation for when Easter will be. One of the first named algorithms
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13:55:42 <Sgeo> NEW DOCTOR WHO TONIGHT
13:55:47 <Sgeo> waosifjdhapdufhiauwdfhiaoeufhaiowuefhiaweuhfiaweufhaioweufhioauwefhiaweufhioaweufhawioeuhfawioeufhawioefhaioweufhaoiweuhfwioauefhawioeufhaowieuhfawioeufhawioeufhioawehfaoieufhoauiwefhawuioefhaiowef
13:57:53 * Lymia injects Sgeo with sedatives
14:03:12 <Sgeo> I do have to wonder if any anti-wifi nutjobs will take it as being symbolic
14:03:35 <FreeFull> Would they watch Doctor Who though
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14:13:23 <Sgeo> WHat sort of foods would a normal human put olive oil on?
14:17:47 -!- Koen_ has joined.
14:19:53 <FreeFull> Sgeo: On rather than using it in cooking?
14:20:23 <Sgeo> What does 'using it in cooking' mean?
14:21:32 <Sgeo> I don't think I can go to the Cablevision cafeteria and ask the person there if they could fry french fries in olive oil rather than whatever they're using
14:21:37 <Sgeo> What do they use for that, anyway/
14:23:06 <Koen_> Sgeo: they use french fries oil
14:23:49 <Koen_> and you *don't* wanna know how many fries were used in the fabrication of french fries oil
14:25:08 <olsner> Sgeo: which oils are suitable for frying is determined by their smoke point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point
14:25:39 <olsner> olive oil has a pretty low smoke point (oh, and it's expensive too)
14:26:34 <Sgeo> I hate heartburn
14:27:15 <Koen_> do you fry your fries above 200°C?
14:29:00 <Halite> we can make a programming language in fries
14:29:02 <Sgeo> I hate relying on a body
14:33:22 <Koen_> sgeo: go build a drone!
14:34:46 <Sgeo> iirc HoloDrone is the WorldsPlayer term for... I forget if it's the term for other people or just yourself
14:35:01 <kmc> Sgeo: olive oil is good on pasta
14:35:12 <Sgeo> kmc, incl. with parmesan cheese?
14:36:40 <kmc> sometimes I eat pasta with tomato sauce, melty cheese, parmesan, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and planty bits like basil
14:36:47 <kmc> i think nearly any subset of those will be tasty
14:40:25 <kmc> why do you need them to fry the fries in olive oil?
14:40:28 <kmc> i think it can't really be done
14:40:36 <Sgeo> kmc, I keep reading that olive oil is healthy and good for weight gain
14:40:45 <kmc> eating a lot of french fries will make you gain weight regardless of what they were fried in
14:40:46 <fizzie> Olive oil and balsamic vinegar is our standard salad dressing.
14:40:47 <kmc> balsamic vinegar is great on so many things
14:40:58 <kmc> I convinced a friend to put it on pizza
14:41:28 <kmc> my logic: oil and vinegar on bread is a thing, and pizza is already oil on bread
14:41:36 <Sgeo> kmc, but apparently there's unhealthy weight gain
14:42:42 <FreeFull> olsner: I meant pan frying, not deep frying
14:42:55 <Sgeo> (Or, I guess, just weight gain that doesn't also have nutrients associated?)
14:43:00 <kmc> i think french fries are usually cooked in generic "vegetable oil" (probably canola / rapeseed) or sometimes peanut oil
14:43:06 <fizzie> People also put it in hair and on skin, I think.
14:43:07 <olsner> FreeFull: oh, ok... but french fries are deep fried?
14:43:07 <kmc> soybean oil maybe?
14:43:10 <kmc> and mcd's used to have animal fats in theirs but they stopped
14:43:10 <kmc> olsner: yep
14:43:14 <fizzie> Rapeseed oil has such a bad name.
14:43:17 <kmc> that's why they call it "canola"
14:43:22 <kmc> Sgeo: I believe there is such a thing as healthy vs. unhealthy weight gain, but also know that a lot of people are really crazy about food and obsess over this or that ingredient being healthy or healthy
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14:43:30 <kmc> if you pick any food ingredient, you can find pages on the Web telling you that it will kill you, and others telling you that it will make you super healthy
14:43:56 <kmc> and dead tree books for that matter
14:44:00 <kmc> publishing books about fad diets is a huge industry
14:44:15 <kmc> people want to hear that there's some clever trick to healthy eating
14:44:36 <FreeFull> The trick is balancing your nutritional requirements against tastiness
14:45:04 <kmc> they don't want to hear that the trick is just eating the right quantity of food + a few basic nutrients
14:45:20 <kmc> you should talk to an actual doctor if you want specific advice on gaining weight
14:46:43 <kmc> i learned about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia_nervosa recently, it's a good coinage
14:47:23 <fizzie> Do not trust Dr. Mario, he's not a real doctor.
14:49:16 <FreeFull> Don't let him stuff his pills into you
14:50:54 <olsner> orthorexia nervosa by proxy should be a thing too
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15:41:56 <Sgeo> Blah. How do I figure out how much money is worth to me relative to effort put in
15:42:11 <Sgeo> It's bad to make a lot of money if you can't enjoy it, I think
15:42:30 <Bike> are you already having problems with your job
15:42:35 <Sgeo> Or that the effort put in to make that money > amount of enjoyment of money
15:42:39 <Sgeo> Just thinking thoughts
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15:47:43 <kmc> Sgeo: you should make a lot of money and give it to charity
15:48:26 <kmc> http://www.givewell.org/
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16:04:08 <Jafet> You should make a lot of money and give it to me
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16:12:45 <monqy> make a lot of money and wear it as clothes
16:12:58 <monqy> make a lot of money and grind it into a paste and put it on your sandwich
16:13:49 <monqy> make a lot of money and invest in a good time
16:17:04 <monqy> make a lot of money and fashion it into a pet and/or friend and now you have a pet and/or friend
16:17:31 <monqy> disgise it with a mostache so nobody will try to steal it. money does not wear a mostash.
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16:28:53 <Jafet> Give a lot of charity and make it to money
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16:47:50 <ThatOtherPerson> "grokked" <-- I can't believe we're actually using that word
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16:57:55 <Sgeo> Someone should make a Haskell for node.js programmers thing
16:58:12 <Sgeo> I bet they'd have an easier time with monads than other programmers
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17:12:31 <Sgeo> Things I probably shouldn't repost in public: Video making fun of cable providers
17:14:40 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
17:14:58 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
17:15:42 <HackEgo> An object is just something in a category.
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17:15:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
17:19:59 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
17:20:16 <elliott> `run echo "Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism." >wisdom/bicategory
17:20:35 <kmc> Sgeo: maybe you should try the Beer, Burritos, and Bonghits Diet
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17:21:29 <oerjan> elliott: so they're not categories that go both ways?
17:21:38 -!- Frooxius has joined.
17:21:42 <nooodl> a bicategory is just two categories
17:22:13 <Bike> Good category, imo.
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17:24:00 <oerjan> a wheel in the category of endofunctors
17:24:37 <oerjan> wait, two wheels. so make that a bicategory.
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17:36:45 <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:37:19 <oerjan> wait, does this mean i've been drunk for years
17:37:23 <Fiora> oh that explains things kmc is drunk all the time
17:37:41 <kmc> Sgeo: i think the chemicals that make olive oil tasty and/or healthy are also the ones that cause it to have a low smoke point unsuitable for deep frying
17:37:41 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:37:48 <kmc> you can get super refined olive oil that lacks those chemicals
17:38:00 <kmc> but I think it's pointless, just a much more expensive version of normal veggie oil
17:38:19 <kmc> Fiora: nuh uh >_<
17:38:43 <Bike> 107% of the time at best
17:38:45 <shachaf> things kmc is such a materialist
17:39:09 <oerjan> getting drunk on ideas is hard when you're hungry
17:40:02 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:40:06 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:40:17 <elliott> maybe that could be quote 1000
17:40:20 <kmc> Domain Name System
17:40:32 <shachaf> does the DNS system make sense
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17:40:44 <oerjan> isn't it about time for a five-quoter again
17:40:54 <Bike> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:40:58 <HackEgo> *poof* this space for rent
17:41:08 <elliott> oerjan: no, we have 1000 quotes now
17:41:17 <shachaf> 1000 is not a perfect number
17:41:25 <shachaf> imo 999 is slightly better
17:41:26 <elliott> i like Bike's idea actually
17:41:35 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:37 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:41:41 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:41:42 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:46 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:41:47 <shachaf> elliott: it's going to get shifted.............................................
17:41:59 <Bike> Just never delete a quote again.
17:42:21 <shachaf> Bike: how can we do that with all the BAD QUOTES in the database
17:42:31 <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:42:51 <Bike> I don't believe in badness.
17:43:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again
17:43:17 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:43:20 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:43:24 <elliott> stop saying things about dns or i'll have to edit it even more
17:44:48 <oerjan> elliott: ok now there is room for one five-quoter
17:45:01 <HackEgo> 880) <fizzie> Have you eaten in one of the restaurants of the PECTOPAH chain? Those are like EVERYWHERE there.
17:45:02 <HackEgo> 623) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be
17:45:02 <HackEgo> 73) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
17:45:03 <HackEgo> 125) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
17:45:03 <HackEgo> 515) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC.
17:45:25 <Bike> I believe in badness now.
17:45:29 <kmc> 125 sorry PH
17:45:36 <Sgeo> 73 is the only bad one
17:45:48 <Sgeo> ..or maybe not
17:45:57 <Sgeo> 880 makes no sense
17:45:58 <oerjan> 73 seems slightly less good
17:46:10 <kmc> Sgeo: that's how the russian restaurant for "restaurant" looks
17:46:15 <kmc> if you pretend they are latin letters instead
17:46:17 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's because you don't know cyrillic
17:47:11 <elliott> i don't think 623 is very good
17:47:29 <shachaf> 73 seems to be the consensus
17:47:29 <elliott> however we can't delete any of them
17:47:31 * kmc changes his vote to 73
17:47:33 <elliott> because it'd break quote 1000
17:47:49 <elliott> you can replace them with other quotes of similar vintage if you find one in the logs however
17:48:27 <shachaf> this has nothing to do with post modernism btw i just like calling things that
17:49:24 <HackEgo> *poof* <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
17:49:54 <olsner> we will know what `quote 1000 was about when it pops up with a different number
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17:51:27 <HackEgo> Regis_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:51:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ printf "%d) %s" $(qc | cut -d' ' -f1) "$1"
17:52:27 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej
17:52:38 <Bike> love that filename, still
17:52:39 <HackEgo> http://50.117.26.26:9903/Live | (#1 - 0/500) MitamineLab
17:52:56 <HackEgo> cat: qc: No such file or directory
17:53:15 <HackEgo> 1000) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:53:51 <oerjan> `run sed '999{hd};1000G' quotes
17:53:52 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 6: extra characters after command
17:54:16 <oerjan> `run sed '999h;999d;1000G' quotes
17:54:17 <HackEgo> <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launc
17:54:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i '999h;999d;1000G' quotes
17:54:31 <HackEgo> 999) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
17:54:35 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
17:55:00 <kmc> `quote rocket
17:55:01 <HackEgo> 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
17:56:14 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: sponge: not found
17:57:39 <shachaf> 10:54 <medfly> http://i.imgur.com/Q9d5P6v.jpg
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17:59:17 <kmc> `ls /proc/
17:59:18 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 2 \ 275 \ 279 \ 280 \ 281 \ 282 \ 283 \ 284 \ 285 \ 286 \ 3 \ 4 \ 45 \ 47 \ 5 \ 6 \ 64 \ 7 \ 70 \ 71 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kp
17:59:32 <kmc> `paste /proc/kallsyms
17:59:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//proc/kallsyms
17:59:53 <kmc> `run cp /proc/kallsyms .
17:59:58 <kmc> `paste kallsyms
18:00:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/kallsyms
18:00:35 <kmc> `rm kallsyms
18:00:36 -!- heroux has joined.
18:01:06 <HackEgo> rm: remove write-protected regular file `kallsyms'?
18:01:15 <kmc> `run rm -f kallsyms
18:01:25 <elliott> now you can't access that url :P
18:01:32 <kmc> already wgot it
18:01:40 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/kallsyms | paste
18:01:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12143
18:01:58 <elliott> oerjan: maybe `paste should use the current revision in the url
18:02:44 <oerjan> elliott: if you know how to find that out, go ahead
18:03:26 <elliott> something hg mumble mumble
18:03:37 <HackEgo> changeset: 2537:cb03e324f144 \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Sat Mar 30 18:01:45 2013 +0000 \ summary: <shachaf> cat /proc/kallsyms | paste
18:03:45 <oerjan> btw that option for `paste just calls `url
18:04:21 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever read that paper cmccann told me to read?
18:04:29 <shachaf> The one about implementing a dependently-typed language, or something.
18:04:49 <kmc> `run uname -a
18:04:50 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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18:10:14 <Sgeo> I changed my midn and now like the IWBTG quote
18:10:23 <Sgeo> Because that's how I feel about IWBTG
18:10:51 <oerjan> how sad how people sometimes change their mind too late
18:12:26 <kmc> `run ls -l /dev | paste
18:12:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31287
18:12:53 <Sgeo> "the doctor who twitter account sent out a new tweet saying that david tennant, billie piper, and john hurt are all confirmed for the 50th anniversary special :-D
18:12:55 <kmc> `run mount | paste
18:13:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32339
18:13:38 <oerjan> is kmc gonna make an actual competent hacking attempt
18:14:05 <elliott> kmc: btw if you break out of the UML it's still running as an unprivileged user
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18:17:28 <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things
18:17:36 <kmc> but it seems like a good excuse to learn a bit about how UML works
18:18:36 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/BeNE Man, square waves.
18:19:47 <kmc> `run mkdir mnt && mount -t hostfs / mnt
18:19:49 <HackEgo> mount: only root can do that
18:19:52 <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin]
18:20:01 <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:20:45 <Bike> i bet gnus are real cool animals but i don't know anything about themm
18:22:09 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnu-head-sm.jpg
18:22:30 <elliott> A handsome GNU Head with typical beard and smart-looking curled horns. He or she appears to be smiling contentedly with its works as of yet, but it still gazes off into the distance.
18:23:04 <elliott> Ripley added the slogan "Your Passion. Our Potential." to the GNU head.
18:23:07 <elliott> Other art in the GNU Art Gallery.
18:23:09 <Bike> yr no attenborough
18:23:17 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/nandakumar-gnu.html oh my god
18:23:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> monqy: did you figure out the "other" fixed point of cos <-- another? is there a complex one or something?
18:23:43 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnulove.html
18:23:53 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/gnupascal.html
18:24:13 <Bike> alt. http://vimeo.com/59140833
18:24:28 <Bike> elliott: does this keep going until you find their humor page again
18:24:39 <Bike> ok these are amazing
18:24:41 <elliott> gnu.org for best website of all time imo
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18:24:53 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -9.9 .. 1]]
18:25:08 <Bike> A long-haired Blaise Pascal and a long-bearded GNU; both stare thoughtfully into space.
18:25:16 <kmc> `run find / -type f \( -perm -4000 -o -perm -2000 \) | paste
18:25:27 <oerjan> > group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -9.9 .. 1]]
18:25:41 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -0.9 .. 1]]
18:26:06 <oerjan> > map head $ group [signum(cos x - x) | x <- [-1, -0.99 .. 1]]
18:26:14 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
18:26:30 <kmc> `run find / -type f \( -perm -4000 -o -perm -2000 \) 2>/dev/null | paste
18:26:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9180
18:27:02 <elliott> Bike: http://www.gnu.org/graphics/bahlon/ http://www.gnu.org/graphics/3dgnuhead.html
18:27:30 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/kafa.html
18:28:08 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:28:12 <HackEgo> 1001) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
18:28:18 <Bike> it's like donkey kong country, except fuck
18:28:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/HJOM this computer and the time always is so strange.
18:28:37 <Bike> "I just wanted to express "wisdom", the wisdom of knowledge, wisdom of love, wisdom of fertility, wisdom of humanity, wisdom of brotherhood. This is what we need and what I feel modern society currently lacks." omg
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18:30:13 <oerjan> <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/graphics/nandakumar-gnu.html oh my god <-- needs more soviet poster style
18:30:46 <kmc> http://geekz.co.uk/shop/images/che-stallman-sticker-show.jpg
18:31:10 <kmc> elliott: "@gmail.com"
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18:33:01 <pikhq> Some days I suspect Microsoft is on crack.
18:33:01 <oerjan> fizzie: you should tell NASA there's a closed time loop in your area hth
18:33:02 <pikhq> Other days I know.
18:33:25 <pikhq> WAV is a generic audio container format that merely happens to usually contain raw PCM.
18:33:36 <kmc> yep, it's like the AVI of audio files
18:34:17 <pikhq> So freaking insane.
18:34:19 <kmc> seems reasonable, if you think things like ogg and avi and mkv are reasonable
18:34:41 <pikhq> Reasonable except that it's used as a raw PCM format.
18:34:53 <pikhq> And has since day one.
18:35:07 <pikhq> Expanding it to support more audio formats is just adding pointless complexity.
18:35:30 <kmc> i don't follow
18:35:31 <pikhq> But then, Microsoft seems to love that.
18:35:35 <kmc> hasn't it been a generic container since day one?
18:35:45 <kmc> isn't it a RIFF file containing FourCC codes and such
18:35:49 <kmc> they didn't just retrofit that later
18:35:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I could easily eat a hamburger with fries for lunch every day :D <-- hm i've been doing that for dinner for 3 days straight
18:36:11 <kmc> the fact that most people use it with the raw PCM codec, and therefore other people assume it's only a raw PCM format, is not microsoft's fault
18:36:14 <pikhq> It's a RIFF file yes, but the FourCC codes aren't used as metadata for what's contained in it.
18:36:18 <kmc> btw I think ADPCM .wav files are reasonably common
18:36:26 <oerjan> because burger king's the only place nearby that's open during easter
18:36:47 <Gregor> Ohyeah, it's Easter, innit.
18:36:49 <pikhq> The FourCC code at the top-level in it is WAVE.
18:37:08 <fizzie> I've ran into ADPCM .wavs. And ones with µ-law or A-law, whichever one it was that it did.
18:37:13 <Sgeo> oerjan, would it help me gain weight healthily?
18:37:18 <oerjan> well pre-easter. the pizza place will also be open from tomorrow.
18:38:17 <oerjan> i think my mom used to eat some kind of protein pulver to gain weight.
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18:39:02 <oerjan> well it's a simple binary search.
18:40:16 <oerjan> you _could_ have a fixpoint without everything converging to it, but cos apparently doesn't.
18:40:38 <oerjan> which is rather logical with its derivative also being in [-1,1]
18:41:29 <oerjan> and sin too, although that has a simpler solution.
18:41:36 <pikhq> Also fun is that the BMP format is not necessarily uncompressed.
18:42:15 <pikhq> It's either raw pixmap, RLE, Huffman encoded, JPEG, or PNG.
18:42:18 <nooodl> > iterate (\x -> x - tan x) 3 !! 1000
18:42:58 <pikhq> Microsoft: because there shouldn't be simple file formats.
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19:05:16 <Halite> has anyone heard of PAM
19:05:19 <kmc> `run /sbin/lsmod | paste
19:05:24 <HackEgo> Opening /proc/modules: No such file or directory \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21005
19:07:39 <kmc> `run ls /proc/m*
19:07:41 <HackEgo> /proc/meminfo \ /proc/misc \ /proc/mounts
19:09:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:10:00 <kmc> `run cat /proc/net/protocols | paste
19:10:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11891
19:20:04 <Sgeo> Is Olive oil a dressing that can be put on chicken sandwiches?
19:21:03 <ais523> Sgeo: it's optionally one of the components of salad cream
19:21:03 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:21:07 <ais523> so I guess it would be usable on its own too
19:21:10 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 5h 35m 36s ago: interesting
19:21:40 <Sgeo> Also: If balsamic vinegar is good on pasta, why have I heard, in trying to explain why ketchup on pasta is disgusing, ketchup compared to vinegar?
19:22:46 <oerjan> because opinions are not universal. hth.
19:22:47 <Bike> Maybe you should just drink the vinegar straight. Cut to the chase.
19:23:19 <FireFly> ketchup on pasta... disgusting?
19:24:18 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should listen to what your body wants to eat. if you don't, it will continue losing weight just out of spite, even if you drink olive oil from the bottle instead of water. hth.
19:25:17 <oerjan> also, if you keep asking others, your body will keep wanting things others advise against, also out of spite. hth.
19:26:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:26:44 <Sgeo> My body doesn't talk to me in that level of detail
19:29:31 <Gregor> Ketchup on pasta… now that's a treat if we're back in the 1930s.
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19:31:12 <kmc> Sgeo: yes you can put oil on bread / sandwiches
19:31:31 <kmc> Sgeo: ketchup is vinegary but it's also really really sweet
19:32:08 <kmc> Sgeo: you can make pesto with olive oil, and a pesto & chicken sandwich is really good
19:33:25 <pikhq> And vinaigerettes are literally oil and vinegar.
19:33:42 <pikhq> Often with other stuff added, but not at all necessary.
19:34:57 <ais523> fwiw, I dislike ketchup, but like tomato-based pasta sauces
19:35:09 <pikhq> I like ketchup, but I would hate it on pasta.
19:35:42 <ais523> my point was that if I like one but not the other, it's likely due to a noticeable difference in ingredients
19:36:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: For what it's worth, ketchup on pasta is normal in Japan.
19:36:16 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naporitan
19:36:22 <pikhq> This seems horrifying to me, but there it is.
19:36:48 <Sgeo> Should I ask for olive oil, or pesto?
19:37:07 <Sgeo> Or does pesto not necessarily have olive oil?
19:37:08 <oerjan> they have to serve _something_ in all those japanese three-star restaurants
19:37:08 <ais523> Sgeo: why are you asking for oil on pasta anyway?
19:37:10 <pikhq> I swear, Japan uses ketchup more than Americans do.
19:37:17 <ais523> I fear I missed the start of the conversation
19:37:20 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm going to go out and buy a chicken sandwich
19:37:31 <Sgeo> I've been reading that olive oil is healthy and fattening
19:37:38 <Sgeo> And want to try it
19:37:42 <ais523> why do you want something that's both healthy and fattening?
19:37:49 <pikhq> ais523: He needs to gain weight for his health.
19:37:56 <kmc> Sgeo: I don't think you should fixate on the particular kind of oil so much
19:38:00 <kmc> but yes, olive oil is good
19:38:07 <Gregor> Now there's a problem I wish I had X_X
19:38:10 <kmc> things with oil are generally fattening, and fat is an essential nutrient
19:38:15 <ais523> I think olive oil has a good balance of fats, generally speaking
19:38:18 <pikhq> Gregor: A friend of mine has incredibly *low* cholesterol.
19:38:26 <ais523> low quantities of the most dangerous ones, and high quantities of the most benign
19:38:28 <ais523> pikhq: I can believe that
19:38:29 <pikhq> Like, to the point it's a medical problem.
19:38:49 <ais523> the reason cholesterol causes heart problems is that it's so important to the correct functioning of the body that it never excretes it ever
19:38:53 <ais523> so it just builds up in the bloodstream
19:38:53 <Gregor> Is he Japanese? Does he eat nothing but fish?
19:38:57 <ais523> if it isn't being used
19:39:01 <Sgeo> I honestly just want to gain enough weight to be able to donate blood. That would make me happy.
19:39:07 <Sgeo> Although probably extra would be nice
19:39:41 <pikhq> And yeah. It's *rare* to have too little cholesterol, but still. It's a problem.
19:39:59 <pikhq> That's one of those things your body really, really needs.
19:40:12 <Sgeo> HDL vs LDL, or is that a myth?
19:40:28 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I could persuade Sgeo to eat a full English breakfast, minus the ingredients that are there as traps for foreigners
19:40:30 <ais523> I have them quite often
19:40:47 <kmc> which are the trap ingredients
19:41:10 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, which are the trap ingredients >_>
19:41:14 <Sgeo> Would it be possible to get a full English breakfast at a corporate cafeteria?
19:41:15 <ais523> kmc: well sausages very really wildly in quality, I eat them myself but they're sometimes awful and you don't really want to know what they're made of
19:41:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: The thing that makes LDL a problem is it's lower density, meaning that LDL buildups are worse than HDL by far.
19:41:17 <Gregor> Please tell me that roasted tomatoes are a trap.
19:41:22 <kmc> `run lsb_release -v
19:41:25 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available.
19:41:33 <ais523> and black pudding is made of blood, although I haven't actually tried it so I don't know what it's like
19:41:37 <kmc> `cat /etc/debian_version
19:41:38 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/debian_version: No such file or directory
19:41:52 <Sgeo> Can an English breakfast be eaten in half an hour?
19:41:57 <kmc> ais523: i had one in ireland, it was fine
19:42:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, but not made and *then* eaten.
19:42:18 <pikhq> Frying stuff is easy, but not instant.
19:42:29 <ais523> pikhq: they can be, I've done it, but you'd need to go to a restaurant experienced in making them
19:42:35 <Sgeo> I have about half an hour from getting to the corporate campus to clocking in
19:42:48 <Gregor> I've eaten supposedly-traditional English breakfasts while in England… other than the fact that English people don't seem to understand how to cook eggs, and the fact that tomatoes should not be cooked whole, I've enjoyed them.
19:42:55 <ais523> in the UK, shops that specialise in them, half an hour would be a good estimate for making+eating
19:43:25 <ais523> and we cook eggs all sorts of different ways, it's just that traditional breakfasts fry them
19:43:44 <pikhq> In the US, you're more-than-likely doing an approximation by getting their "big breakfast" thing at a diner.
19:43:49 <Gregor> English people don't know how to fry eggs.
19:44:02 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, what specifically do we do wrong?
19:44:05 <pikhq> (not the *same*, but that's basically the closest you'll get without having silly luck.)
19:44:16 <kmc> breakfast in the US is combinatorial, you ask for m eggs, n bacon, k sausage, t toast, etc
19:44:22 <Gregor> ais523: What you call over hard, we call over medium. The actual "hard" end of the spectrum seems beyond your imagination.
19:44:42 <pikhq> ... they don't do eggs over hard there? :(
19:44:47 <pikhq> But I like my eggs over hard.
19:44:49 <ais523> Gregor: that seems specific to restaurants, for some reason
19:44:53 <Sgeo> I'd like to try eggs and bacon, but ... even though bacon has a reputation for being fattening...
19:45:11 <ais523> the hard end of the spectrum exists, but typically only for home cooking, the restaurants are in too much of a hurry
19:45:16 <Sgeo> What does over hard and over medium exist?
19:45:18 <Gregor> ais523: I've only had English fried eggs in B&Bs and restaurants *shrugs*
19:45:34 <Gregor> ais523: But over hard is faster than over medium to cook X_X
19:45:42 <ais523> Sgeo: well the fat is visibly separate from the lean meat, with bacon
19:45:49 <pikhq> Over easy/medium/hard indicates how well-cooked the eggs are after being flipped.
19:45:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: Over medium is cooked all the way thru, over hard is yolk broken and cooked all the way thru.
19:46:05 <ais523> although the lean meat is still reasonably fattening
19:46:07 <kmc> i gotta try a sous vide egg sometime
19:46:08 <Sgeo> I think I prefer hard-boiled eggs
19:46:15 <Gregor> And under hard is a hypothetical abomination that it's fun to ask for in a restaurant when the waiter doesn't know what he/she's doing.
19:47:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: In your case, bacon would be fairly beneficial.
19:47:53 <oerjan> Gregor: flip the egg, break yolk, then serve?
19:47:55 <Gregor> You're in America. How can gaining weight be difficult.
19:48:12 <Gregor> oerjan: Typically: Crack egg, break yolk, cook one side, flip, cook other side, serve.
19:48:20 <pikhq> We put cheese on everything.
19:48:40 <Gregor> [Which makes life really fun for people who hate cheese *cough*]
19:48:44 <pikhq> Deep fried cheese is a thing in parts of the country!
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19:49:50 <ais523> pikhq: when I was on a trip to Hungary, there were some vegetarians with us
19:49:56 <ais523> and our Hungarian hosts didn't seem to know how to handle them
19:50:07 <ais523> they invented all sorts of vegetarian-but-unusual dishes, such as battered cheese
19:50:31 <kmc> i wanna try a chip butty
19:50:39 <Gregor> ais523: So if there were vegans, they'd just die there.
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19:51:06 <ais523> perhaps, or perhaps they'd have to buy their own food
19:51:41 <Gregor> When I was visiting grad schools, I pretty much had to buy all my own meals.
19:51:49 <Gregor> Pizza: Clearly the universal food. *grumble grumble*
19:52:10 <ais523> Gregor: I don't like pizza :(
19:52:31 <Gregor> ais523: I hate cheese. Welcome to the club.
19:52:36 <Sgeo> halp I shouldn't be learning nutrition from an artificial life game
19:52:44 <ais523> Gregor: I have problems wit heating too much cheese
19:52:50 <Sgeo> I just tried to make a mental checklist, and it went: starch fat protein
19:52:51 <ais523> I didn't particularly dislike it at the time
19:53:03 <ais523> but after not eating it for years, I find it hard to tolerate
19:53:03 <Gregor> ais523: So do I! Where "too much" is defined as "more than none" :)
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19:53:24 <ais523> Sgeo: those /are/ the three major food groups (well, if you generalise "starch" to "carbohydrate")
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19:54:27 <Sgeo> And you totally get them by eating seeds, food, and fruit
19:54:52 <elliott> btw is it just me or are americans awful at making bacon
19:54:54 <Sgeo> (I know that that's a bad way to describe it at least. But that's how the game works)
19:54:58 <Gregor> "And you totally get them by eating...food"
19:55:03 <elliott> and yet they are obsessed with it
19:55:19 <Sgeo> Food gives only fat specifically, of course!
19:55:24 <Gregor> elliott: Quite simply, what we call bacon and what you call bacon are not the same food whatsoever.
19:55:28 <Sgeo> Fruit isn't food
19:55:41 <elliott> Gregor: yeah but yours just looks like ours if you fucked it up...
19:56:31 <Gregor> I think the English just don't like fully cooking breakfast foods *shrugs*
19:56:37 <Gregor> Excluding tomatoes, inexplicably.
19:56:41 <Sgeo> I should also see if it's possible to get milk in the cafeteria. And if I can overcome my slight disgust at drinking something that came out of a cow's udders in public.
19:57:00 <elliott> well it's not even about how much you cook it i think
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19:57:09 <Gregor> Sgeo: Being fine with it in /private/ but not in /public/ is considerably more disturbing than just not liking it.
19:57:23 <ais523> elliott: there are a large number of possible ways to get meat from a pig
19:57:34 <pikhq> US "bacon" is a different cut, cured, and smoked.
19:57:36 <elliott> Sgeo: did you know meat is made out of animal flesh
19:57:53 <ais523> I think UK bacon is lim_(width\rightarrow 0) gammon
19:58:02 <kmc> i don't really like milk either
19:58:04 <Bike> Cows aren't disgusting, they are fucking jerks though
19:58:05 <ais523> although there seems to be multiple possible definitions of gammon, too
19:58:13 <Bike> fuck cows, is what i'm saying
19:58:17 <Sgeo> Also, drinking milk is good after having chewed gum, but who chews gum in public?
19:58:33 <ais523> not everybody, but a lot of people do
19:58:49 <Gregor> A lot of people fuck cows?
19:58:49 <elliott> chewing gum is something to do in the privacy of your own room, with a locked door
19:58:56 <Sgeo> Fun anecdote: My mom once gave me some gum to help get rid of the taste after I chewed my medicine.
19:59:02 <Sgeo> This was when I was a little kid
19:59:18 <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
19:59:20 <Bike> i give this anecdote 3/10 funpuns
19:59:22 <Sgeo> Some guy asked if that was nicotine gum
19:59:45 <kmc> i chew nicotine gum sometime
19:59:51 <Sgeo> No. And why would any kid be given nicotine gum?
20:00:01 <Bike> Because your mom's a classy lady.
20:00:34 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
20:00:38 <HackEgo> 1002) <Gregor> Sgeo: That fact is so fun I can feel my pancreas kicking into overdrive.
20:00:51 <kmc> data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
20:00:53 <kmc> best instruction ever
20:01:41 <pikhq> Why are there so many data32 prefixes?
20:01:53 <kmc> it's an intentionally long nop instruction
20:02:04 <kmc> which is better than a sequence of small nops because it's FASTER
20:02:16 <kmc> (also it can be replaced atomically with some other long instruction)
20:02:40 <pikhq> Ah, a one-clock-cycle very large nop pad.
20:02:46 <pikhq> Still, that's a lot of prefixes.
20:03:18 <Sgeo> Esolang made up of what would be NOPs in various other languages
20:03:56 <Gregor> I like how the nopw instruction apparently has arguments.
20:04:01 <Gregor> "Do nothing with this memory"
20:04:29 <Sgeo> Because if you don't, it will be randomly filled!
20:04:30 <pikhq> I wonder if you can accidentally impose a pipeline stall with that.
20:04:57 <kmc> pikhq: Intel says to use %rax specifically for nops, as their chips have a special case to avoid false data dependencies
20:05:25 <kmc> the classic 0x90 NOP is actually xchg %eax, %eax
20:05:42 <pikhq> The classic 0x90 NOP is not xchg %eax, %eax on x86_64 though. :)
20:05:57 <kmc> i think it is
20:06:06 <pikhq> It's hard-coded as a NOP instead because otherwise it'd sign-extend eax.
20:06:07 <Bike> as in the opcode is 0x90 hex, sgeo.
20:06:20 <kmc> silly world
20:06:27 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.8.5/arch/x86/include/asm/nops.h
20:06:30 <elliott> so what do you do fi you want xchg %eax, %eax
20:06:42 <pikhq> elliott: They gave that a different encoding.
20:06:56 <pikhq> Y'know, just in case you actually *do* want to sign-extend eax.
20:07:20 <ais523> pikhq: that isn't a useless operation, it's actually expressible in gcc intermediate representation, for instance
20:07:34 <kmc> `run ps ax | paste
20:07:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21725
20:07:42 <pikhq> Yeah, it's perfectly sensible.
20:07:54 <pikhq> You might have a 32-bit int in eax and want to cast to a 64-bit init.
20:07:58 <Sgeo> How is it sensible, I don't get it
20:08:13 * Sgeo should learn this stuff sometime
20:08:26 <ais523> pikhq: does xchg %eax, %rax make sense?
20:08:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sign extension is where you set all the other bits based on the sign bit.
20:08:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: For instance, the sign extension of 0xFF to a 16-bit int would be 0xFFFF.
20:09:03 <kmc> not all the other bits, just the ones that didn't exist in the smaller number
20:09:03 <Bike> Sgeo: say you have a 32 bit number with some sign. you want the 64 bit number representing the same number. you can't just put a bunch of zeroes there because of how two's complement works.
20:09:12 <pikhq> kmc: That's what I mean, yeah.
20:09:34 <Sgeo> I should read a tutorial on assembler
20:09:36 <Bike> kmc: this header is great
20:09:39 <Sgeo> Is it "assembler" or "assembly"/
20:10:13 <Bike> "assembly language" as a category is pretty wide anyway, x86 and ARM are really different
20:10:43 <Bike> so why is there an atomic nop5 and a regular nop5
20:11:10 <elliott> this really doesn't have anything to do with assembly
20:11:14 <elliott> why the xchg makes sense, I mean
20:11:22 <kmc> atomic nop5 and conventional nop5
20:11:47 <Bike> extern const unsigned char * const *ideal_nops;
20:12:25 <pikhq> x86 in general is quite different from most other architectures still around.
20:13:14 <kmc> `run echo 'explain const unsigned char * const *ideal_nops' | cdecl
20:13:16 <HackEgo> bash: cdecl: command not found
20:17:32 <fizzie> "xchg %eax, %eax" does not sign-extend eax.
20:17:49 <fizzie> Writing to the 32-bit half of a GPR zero-fills the upper 32 bits, not sign-extends.
20:18:23 <fizzie> (And if you want that, the "conventional" way of expressing it is mov %reg, %reg.)
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20:19:56 <fizzie> ("32-bit operands generate a 32-bit result, zero-extended to a 64-bit result in the destination general-purpose register", Intel 64 and IA-32 Architectures Software Developer's Manual, Volume 1, 3.4.1.1 General-Purpose Registers in 64-Bit Mode.)
20:21:38 <fizzie> (There's a "REX.W** + 63 /r MOVSXD r64, r/m32 Move doubleword to quadword with sign-extension." instruction if you want to sign-extend.)
20:22:16 <Sgeo> Is there a better way to learn about CPUs and x86 than by learning assembly?
20:22:24 <fizzie> (Other than that, I don't have any disagreement with the discussion above; it's still the case that xchg %eax, %eax isn't a nop and yadda yadda.)
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20:40:26 <pikhq> fizzie: Weird. Why would it zero-extend?
20:40:32 <pikhq> That's significantly less useful.
20:40:46 <pikhq> Also not *particularly* easier.
20:41:22 <fizzie> There's a large number of unsigned integers around, and they too have just as much rights as the signed ones.
20:41:35 <kmc> iirc the zero extension exists to facilitate using 32-bit pointers
20:41:54 <kmc> if you're (say) making a syscall into a 64-bit kernel, you want to zero-extend, not sign-extend
20:42:07 <kmc> otherwise the top half of your userspace 32-bit address space will map to kernel space probably
20:42:26 <kmc> if you want to sign extend, there are instructions for that
20:42:38 <kmc> movslq or whatever
20:42:42 <pikhq> Though most 32-bit OSes reserve the top half for kernelspace anyways... :P
20:43:10 <fizzie> A 64-bit OS running a 32-bit process would hopefully give it four real gigs. Maybe? I don't know.
20:43:11 <kmc> not 64-bit OSes though
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20:43:27 <kmc> if you run an i386 program on x86_64 linux, it gets four gigs
20:43:43 <kmc> but it also runs in compat processor mode so this isn't so relevant anyway
20:43:46 <pikhq> I wouldn't be surprised if that's not the case on Windows.
20:44:06 <pikhq> I *bet* someone's doing pointer tagging with the high bit on Windows. :P
20:44:26 <kmc> it's relevant in a scenario where your user code runs in long mode and is otherwise a normal amd64 program, except that it stores pointers as only 4 words
20:44:29 <kmc> errr 4 bytes
20:44:39 <kmc> like the linux x32 ABI
20:45:02 <kmc> except it might not be relevant for x32 either, since they have a new 32-bit system call interface for x32
20:45:03 <fizzie> I doubt they had x32 in mind when they designed that behaviour, though. (Is it all that common, elsewhere?)
20:45:32 <kmc> but zero extension would be relevant if you wanted to use 32-bit pointers without help from the OS, for sure
20:45:43 <kmc> or if you want to link between libs using 32 and 64 bit pointers
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20:46:11 <kmc> fizzie: it was definitely already known at the time AMD64 was being designed that 64-bit pointers everywhere has a performance impact, and it would be nice to get away with 32 bit pointers for this reason
20:46:34 <fizzie> I'd certainly like a reference to an official rationale document, though.
20:46:41 <kmc> on SPARC64 it's common to have a mostly 32 bit userspace because (unlike AMD64) the 64-bit processor mode doesn't have any other real performance advantage
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20:46:52 <kmc> fizzie: sorry, i don't have one
20:46:56 <kmc> this is just what I heard or perhaps inferred
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20:50:03 <fizzie> Bah, AMD's corresponding (programmer's manual) document also just describes the how and not the why. Oh well.
20:51:16 <fizzie> The deal with the sil/dil/bpl/spl vs. ah/bh/ch/dh is kind of nasty.
20:52:35 <olsner> I think those high-byte registers are pretty much never used, but lower-byte access across all registers is actually useful
20:52:59 <fizzie> They certainly are used in handcrafted assembly.
20:53:14 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:54:05 <fizzie> (Not that I disagree that the new scheme wouldn't be much more logical.)
20:54:49 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:55:21 <Taneb> oerjan, that's the same manyhills
20:55:46 <Bike> Oh man google result previews are greyer now. Oh man just as foretold
20:55:47 <Taneb> The one on the IWC forum is the same as the one on the Murderous Maths forum
20:55:48 <olsner> but the way you choose between ah/bh/etc and sil/dil/etc is nasty ... since long mode is incompatible enough already, they should've just removed the high bytes entirely
20:56:22 <pikhq> It's a shame they didn't change a minor detail of the asm syntax.
20:56:33 <pikhq> It'd be nice if rax-rdi had r0-r7 synonyms.
20:56:53 <olsner> well, they don't specify any syntax in the first place, so they couldn't change it
20:57:15 <fizzie> NASM does that, in the sense that there's a standard macro package called "altreg" that does.
20:57:54 <pikhq> Yeah, but surely the assembler authors could have.
20:59:06 <fizzie> olsner: AMD64 manual, "3.3.1 Syntax": "Each instruction has a /mnemonic syntax/ used by assemblers to specify the operation and the operands --" all that does seem quite a lot like specifying a syntax. (
20:59:36 <fizzie> (More assembler authors probably would've if the manual included r0..r7 names in it?)
21:02:22 <fizzie> (NASM's altreg also adds other such "logical" aliases, like Intel's R8L..R15L (AMD defines R8B..R15B for the low bytes) and R0H..R3H for AH,CH,DH,BH, which probably nobody has used anywhere ever.)
21:02:40 * Fiora looks in, sees asm
21:03:01 <fizzie> Quick, hide all the assembly.
21:04:53 * pikhq wonders why no DOS C compilers let you use multiple segments *and* a flat memory space
21:05:13 <olsner> it's not flat if it has multiple segments
21:05:35 <oerjan> Taneb: so there are more esolangers from there...
21:05:51 <fizzie> olsner: You could argue it is, if all the segments have a base of 0 and a limit of 4G.
21:06:03 <Taneb> Murderous Maths changed my life
21:06:03 <pikhq> If one enforces the rule that 0x0F00 | segment = 0, then all physical addresses have a unique segment:address pair.
21:06:08 <Taneb> (not an exaggeration)
21:06:21 <Taneb> (although it does perhaps come under the Butterfly Effect)
21:06:34 <pikhq> If one enforces the rule that only those 4 bits of the segment are set, ...
21:08:45 <pikhq> Then you just have a weird-ass way of loading pointers into registers.
21:09:09 <pikhq> And your pointer arithmetic is a *tiny* bit weird.
21:09:41 <olsner> I'm not sure what you're describing
21:09:56 <pikhq> olsner: One has the C environment have 20-bit pointers.
21:10:23 <pikhq> When actually interacting with memory you "simply" convert those to/from segment:address pairs.
21:10:48 <pikhq> And so you've got a somewhat more complicated C compiler, at the benefit of completely ignoring the existence of near/far pointers.
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21:11:09 <olsner> right, all neatly packed into 1MB of memory
21:11:40 <ais523> pikhq: that's basically "all pointers are huge pointers", right?
21:11:49 <ais523> so pretty similar to the "huge memory model"
21:12:31 <fizzie> How about the model with a flat 24-bit address space, done by setting up 256 segment descriptors that each specify a 64k segment 64k apart in the GDT, and then using those 24-bit pointers by loading the high byte << 3 into a segment register, and the rest into the low half of a GPR, and never touching the upper 16 bits of them?
21:12:49 <pikhq> Won't work in real mode. :)
21:13:09 <pikhq> But fairly sensible if you need to work on a 286.
21:13:44 <pikhq> Hell, you could even page that way.
21:13:46 <FreeFull> Why would you need to work on a 286 anymore?
21:14:07 <pikhq> FreeFull: Well, if you have a time machine, ...
21:14:13 <Sgeo> They had no olive oil, just oil
21:14:31 <olsner> aliens arrive and convert all processors to 286es
21:14:38 <fizzie> Olive oil, motor oil, it's all just oil.
21:14:47 <Sgeo> It was labeled only as 'oil'
21:15:55 <pikhq> Of course, anymore if you *really* need to run on DOS you just build with DJGPP.
21:16:05 <pikhq> And even that's unlikely.
21:16:15 <FreeFull> pikhq: If you have a time machine, you will probably do something more interesting than go back a couple of years for old computers
21:16:41 <pikhq> FreeFull: I dunno, I could be pretty interesting doing that.
21:16:46 <fizzie> I think in these days you might build with OpenWatcom instead, because Watcom is the bomb (all the kool demoscene dudes had a copy of Watcom), and now you can get it for free.
21:16:49 <FreeFull> I don't see why you wouldn't just write straight ASM for a 286
21:17:01 <pikhq> Head back to 2000 and claim to be John Titor. :D
21:17:18 <fizzie> Also, DOS4GW vs. what's-what-DJGPP-used-was-it-CWSDPMI-or-what.
21:17:47 <pikhq> Um, the John Titor story has fuck-all to do with manga...
21:17:59 <Bike> pikhq: there's an anime with the Titor story in it.
21:18:00 <olsner> most of those dos extenders failed to work on my 386 :(
21:18:18 <Taneb> Wasn't that that guy who went on Usenet or something and claimed to be a time traveller
21:18:18 <pikhq> Yes, but the Titor story is an actual event. Someone *actually claimed* to be a time traveller online...
21:18:25 <Sgeo> I don't taste anything
21:18:29 <Sgeo> Or at least anything different
21:18:34 <Bike> Anime subsumes all, pikhq! ALLLLL
21:18:36 <pikhq> Taneb: Forum rather than Usenet, but yes.
21:18:46 <Bike> I thought it was usenet...
21:19:06 * Sgeo used USENET in 2006
21:19:28 <Taneb> Sgeo used USENET in 2006
21:19:54 <FreeFull> pikhq: Well, ok, there is a manga based off it though
21:20:02 <fizzie> olsner: Was there something wrong with your 386 then?
21:20:11 <elliott> Bike: btw please cease your sinful placement of two spaces after punctuation.
21:20:20 <Taneb> And it was made into a manga
21:20:20 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steins;Gate
21:20:30 <Bike> elliott: bite me motherfucker
21:20:48 <Sgeo> Isn't that how you're supposed to type? With two spaces after punctuation? I've definitely heard of that.
21:20:58 <elliott> my teeth arent that long Bike
21:21:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's a typewriterism.
21:21:10 <Taneb> What is punctuation
21:21:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: There is supposed to be a 1.5em space after a period in traditional, high-quality typesetting.
21:21:37 <pikhq> Two spaces is an emulation of that.
21:22:00 <Sgeo> Taneb, there's a movie about the guy with that classified ad
21:22:14 <Taneb> There's a guy with a classified ad!?
21:22:25 <Sgeo> The... I have only done this once before guy
21:25:26 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
21:25:27 <fizzie> fungot: How many spaces do you put in, after a period?
21:25:28 <fungot> fizzie: thank u. please tell lucy i forgot to tell me what u thinking just now leh. at ard decimal tmr at the coffeeshop near their office
21:25:58 <fizzie> I was hoping for one of those cases where you put in punctuation,then don't leave any space after them.I hear it's all the rage these days.
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21:26:12 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure you can't oblige?
21:26:12 <fungot> fizzie: who is this? 1. over. your not my real. she can come and ill get her medical education nt only in this assignment
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21:26:31 <fizzie> I may have accidentally normalized the punctuation a bit, come to think of it.
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21:34:59 <fizzie> Were you unnerved by the silence?
21:38:01 <zzo38> The music I made is now available in FLAC format, although the FLAC file is over ten thousand times as large.
21:38:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:39:04 <oerjan> he just couldn't take it any more
21:39:22 <oerjan> silence, then zzo38 music
21:40:08 <oerjan> it's good he got away before the polka.
21:42:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:42:49 <oerjan> oh no he came back! now he is doomed.
21:43:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doom: not found
21:43:40 <oerjan> but then, doom is his last name. if you choose the right font.
21:43:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:45:12 <fizzie> Doom lighting is like mood lighting, except even darker.
21:45:52 * kmc has used OpenWatcom
21:46:05 <oerjan> kmc: was it super effective?
21:46:56 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/10/programming-jvf-2010.html
21:49:10 <fizzie> I've used a stolen copy of Watcom 9.
21:49:31 <fizzie> Or maybe 9.5. Something that started with 9.
21:49:42 <elliott> hmm, unordered pairs are tricky
21:50:25 <Bike> kmc: heh those comments.
21:50:32 <Taneb> In Haskell, either use an Ord instance or just use tuples but with stupider pattern matching, elliott
21:50:40 <Taneb> Or something clever I haven't thought of
21:54:28 <oerjan> elliott: they're called "sets of two elements" i hear
21:54:52 <elliott> oerjan: sets are even harder :P
21:55:13 <oerjan> oh, i thought Coq had sets as a nearly basic feature
21:55:32 <kmc> type theory > set theory!
21:55:36 <elliott> oerjan: it has "Set", but those are just types
21:55:48 <elliott> in particular, you have Set and Prop as subtypes of Type.
21:56:02 <elliott> (which basically means, you're restricted in how much you can quantify over in Set, I think)
21:56:18 <elliott> there are various developments of set theory in coq though. I think they all use axioms.
21:57:12 <oerjan> well { x | x = y or x = z } would be one way of writing the unordered pair {y,z} in set theory.
21:58:32 <oerjan> so i'm wondering what is tricky about it.
21:59:23 <elliott> oerjan: well it is type theory. you don't have that.
21:59:49 <elliott> the closest thing you have to unions/intersections are products and sums, and of course products give you an ordering.
22:00:54 <shachaf> elliott: Can't you do actual union types with dependent types somehow?
22:01:29 <elliott> shachaf: what would that mean?
22:01:41 <shachaf> They're pullbacks and pushouts of each other or something like that, aren't they?
22:01:51 <elliott> anyway I know what the type should look like and what induction principle you want on it, I think. it's implementing it that's the hard part.
22:02:38 <oerjan> try to prove it leads to a contradiction.
22:02:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:03:23 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo
22:03:51 <oerjan> shachaf: when you cannot do something, prove that it cannot be done. they'd have discovered hyperbolic geometry so much easier if they'd just tried that earlier.
22:03:54 <elliott> oerjan: if you can't express something in coq it's far more likely than not you can't prove you can't, in my experience.
22:04:03 <oerjan> shachaf: is this the same as earlier today?
22:04:08 <elliott> since you can perfectly well add all of classical logic and ZFC as axioms and it still works.
22:04:11 <shachaf> Ther ewas one earlier today?
22:10:24 <FireFly> What does the `olist signify?
22:10:28 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
22:11:29 <oerjan> FireFly: order of the stick update
22:11:50 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
22:11:58 <FireFly> `run echo FireFly >>bin/olist
22:12:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:12:56 <kmc> truly #esoteric is the replacement for Google Reader
22:13:06 <olsner> are there questions where it's interesting to prove whether you can prove if something can be proven?
22:13:51 <Bike> olsner: well, consistency, no?
22:13:53 <Taneb> kmc, alas, I follow RSSs that no-one else here does
22:14:32 <zzo38> I do not currently follow any RSS
22:17:34 <Sgeo> shachaf, again?
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22:42:38 <rapido> Has anyone of you ever done any program slicing? http://sites.computer.org/debull/A07dec/cheney.pdf
22:43:53 <rapido> .. or any provenance related stuff?
22:44:08 <Taneb> I just managed to make two squares appear on a screen
22:46:51 <rapido> how did you make those squares? i want to know it all! If you can't show how you did it, step-by-step, i deem it not trust worthy
22:50:11 <rapido> sounds like SLUT - so i don't trust the GLUT squares really appeared on the screen
22:50:39 <rapido> oops - now i'm going to be fired - i was being rude and sexists
22:50:41 <kmc> itt: slut shaming
22:51:05 <rapido> sorry, i take that back
22:52:24 <kmc> take what back?
22:53:30 <rapido> …this whole provenance thing has caught me by surprise … i said something stupid and it can be traced back to me!
22:53:50 <kmc> logged forever
22:55:16 <rapido> undo isn't always an option - when firing rockets
22:55:46 * ais523 visualises a rocket turning round, flying back to where it came, and carefully parking inside the rocket launcher
22:56:16 <oerjan> i think the latest xkcd what if is relevant.
22:56:27 <rapido> .. we just lost some fuel somewhere ..
22:58:02 <oerjan> http://what-if.xkcd.com/38/
22:58:21 <elliott> /query kmc Bike Taneb # incriminating everyone
22:58:38 <elliott> /query [mbm] # i'm looking at you, idler
22:58:41 <oerjan> you are already querying me afaik
22:58:46 <elliott> oerjan: I use it to switch windows!
22:58:51 <elliott> because I am hopelessly inefficient
23:00:56 <fizzie> I use that to go to a fungot window too.
23:00:57 <fungot> fizzie: am i that much bad loh. nvm. i think gaoweiwould do
23:01:09 <fizzie> I mean, /query fungot. /query oerjan, as far as I can tell, does not go to a fungot window.
23:01:10 <fungot> fizzie: just in time to rehearse for the bestpresentation demo tomorrow at the new school year. just wishin you a gr8 day. plus walking ma.haha. but shld b fine... slackin now... wat u doing now. any way thanks for the wishes to ur parents:-d may they united ah
23:01:15 <fizzie> Sometimes the difference can be pretty small.
23:03:32 <kmc> fungot fungus facts
23:03:32 <fungot> kmc: saw u PAT just cents with budget sms!* shehan... regret to inform you that i am wearing slipper.
23:03:36 <rapido> question: is there someone who did some provenance related stuff?
23:04:49 <rapido> i find provenance pretty esoteric - but you may disagree
23:05:21 <tswett> Do we have any Turing-complete programming languages whose interpreter consists of a finite state machine attached to a queue?
23:06:06 <oerjan> provenance sounds like a comonad hth
23:06:41 <tswett> Provenance as in God being nice?
23:07:26 <oerjan> http://code.google.com/p/core-provenance-library/ is what google gave me
23:07:35 <Taneb> Isn't that like the capital of Rhode Island
23:07:50 <oerjan> no, that's providence. also something plantations.
23:08:01 <rapido> what about provenance being first class? for instance, go back in time and re-use past data in the present
23:08:01 <tswett> Provenance is... like the history of possession of something.
23:08:18 <oerjan> rapido: you should look up Elephant
23:09:01 <tswett> Hm, let me rephrase my question.
23:09:03 <rapido> i know of elephant - it was conceived by the great one
23:09:35 <tswett> Do we have any Turing-complete programming languages where the program is a list of instructions (which are not necessarily only one character long), and each instruction is of the form "append these characters to the program"?
23:10:20 <rapido> i'm sure the provenance is good material for a esoteric language.
23:10:31 <ais523> tswett: tag systems work like that
23:11:22 <tswett> Is there a simple Turing-complete tag system, then...
23:11:24 <rapido> provenance is a hot research topic
23:12:19 <ais523> tswett: hmm… tag systems in general are TC, but I'm not sure how simple the simplest universal one is
23:12:26 <rapido> oerjan: speaking of elephant - i don't remember seeing a compiler for it
23:14:35 <oerjan> i cannot find elephant on wikipedia :(
23:15:12 <rapido> an elephant interpreter is fine with me too
23:15:22 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant hth
23:15:38 <rapido> .. what was that elephant saying? ..
23:15:59 <rapido> . WHAT was that elephant saying? ..
23:16:17 <tswett> What WAS that elephant saying? What was that elephant SAYING?
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23:21:05 <elliott> ais523: sorry about the awful spam. i haven't been up to upgrading the wiki over the past few days.
23:21:16 <ais523> elliott: fair enough, it only takes a couple of minutes to fix
23:21:26 <ais523> it might make more sense to apologise to everyone else
23:21:47 <ais523> there used to be debates on Wikipedia, "how do you delete ten pages in ten seconds without using a script?"
23:21:50 <ais523> but it's entirely doable
23:21:57 <ais523> if you use tabs and get into a rhythm
23:22:18 <elliott> i'll apologise to oerjan for not making him an op to deal with it
23:22:25 <elliott> hmm, I guses op is a bad abbreviation of sysop
23:23:32 <Sgeo> Why have I been so hungry today? :/
23:23:37 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's a good thing
23:23:46 <Sgeo> Maybe eating more during the week makes me need more food?
23:25:41 <oerjan> Vorpal: you added DownRight to the implemented category but i see no implementation link
23:25:58 <ais523> oerjan: there are two on the talk page
23:27:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, I seem to remember writing a implementation using parsec, which was totally overkill for that
23:27:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: there was no mention in the article of where to find it.
23:27:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, was it on the talk page?
23:27:30 <Taneb> tswett, this makes me happy
23:27:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, otherwise I guess I could try searching for it, to find the file
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23:32:15 <tswett> Now I wonder how interesting a two-dimensional Turing machine you could make.
23:35:53 <tswett> Perhaps the head's state could consist of the direction that the machine wants to move in and a "current instruction", and then the instructions are things like "start moving in this direction", "pick up the instruction that's in this direction", and "lay down the instruction that's in this direction".
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23:52:03 <Sgeo> The company I work for pays for a specific charity's administrative costs
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