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00:08:53 <kmc> Sgeo: cool, can you tell us more about them?
00:09:12 <Sgeo> Cablevision apparently underwrites the Lustgarten Foundation
00:11:46 <fizzie> Lustgarten Foundation sounds like a German porn company.
00:12:23 <Bike> Pancreatic cancer, aight
00:12:26 <Taneb> It sounds like a German porn charity
00:12:35 <Vorpal> Today is the first time since I got this computer (almost 1.5 years ago now) that I managed making it swap. At all.
00:12:42 <Taneb> Like an adult "make a wish" foundation dealie
00:13:14 <Vorpal> What I did was having over 100 tabs open in chromium AND playing single player minecraft with a lot of mods.
00:14:27 <kmc> Vorpal: how much physical RAM do you have?
00:15:21 <Vorpal> The motherboard & chipsets supports up to 32, so there is some room for future expansion
00:16:23 <Vorpal> (also 4 GB was allocated to minecraft on the java command line)
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00:17:26 <kmc> presumably it's not setting aside 4GB of physical memory right away thuogh
00:17:32 <kmc> unless you have overcommit disabled
00:17:44 <Vorpal> but I ran that minecraft instance for all day
00:17:55 <Vorpal> so I wouldn't be surprised if it had reached that limit
00:18:18 <Vorpal> kmc, I tend to watch youtube and play mc at the same time for example, at least when I'm playing creative
00:18:42 <Vorpal> so that way i end up running both programs all day
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00:23:05 <zzo38> Is there a correlation between the airplane destination and the golf scores?
00:23:20 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would there be?
00:23:36 <kmc> Fiora: here are my AES-NI example programs: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
00:23:57 <Vorpal> kmc, AES-NI is sandy or ivy bridge?
00:24:51 <kmc> westmere, 2010
00:25:06 <olsner> and it's not included in all models
00:25:12 <kmc> westmere was the die shrink of nehalem
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00:25:32 <kmc> "Several vendors have shipped BIOS configurations with the extension disabled... a BIOS update is required to enable them"
00:25:38 <kmc> anyway my thinkpad has it
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00:25:52 <Vorpal> my thinkpad is too old for it
00:26:01 <Vorpal> definitely doesn't have it
00:26:09 * kmc has an i5-3427U
00:26:35 <Vorpal> no clue what that means in terms of generation
00:26:46 <Vorpal> mine is a "model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500 CPU @ 3.30GHz"
00:26:46 <kmc> ivy bridge
00:26:55 <Vorpal> mine is sandy bridge I know
00:29:28 <kmc> my previous laptop has a T8100 which was early 2008 ;P
00:30:06 <kmc> strange to think that was 5 years ago
00:30:28 <kmc> and compare with the change from say 1998 -> 2003
00:30:55 <kmc> i don't feel a huge speed difference with the 5 year old laptop as long as it has an SSD
00:31:07 <Vorpal> kmc, I booted the OS from my first own computer in an emulator a while back, on my core 2 duo thinkpad... Damn it booted fast. (Mac OS 9)
00:31:27 <Vorpal> much faster than my real first-gen ibook did it (yes I still have it)
00:31:37 <kmc> is that the toilet seat ibook?
00:31:45 <Vorpal> kmc, yes, blue clamshell
00:31:52 <Vorpal> battery is bust though
00:32:05 <Vorpal> also the power connector is glitchy
00:32:15 <Vorpal> so you need to be very careful not to move it when using it
00:32:23 <kmc> still running OS 9?
00:32:25 <Vorpal> I generally put some bluetac under the connector
00:32:39 <Vorpal> kmc, yes of course, with 3.2 GB HDD, what else could it run ;P
00:33:20 <Vorpal> kmc, it is after all from early 2001 iirc?
00:33:40 <Vorpal> kmc, oh and the clock battery is bust too
00:33:56 <Vorpal> always thinks it is 1904 when booting
00:34:05 <Vorpal> kmc, still, sometimes I boot it for the nostalgia
00:34:41 <Vorpal> anyway the emulator is kind of glitchy... Didn't run Avernum 3 properly (it did run Avernum 1 & 2 though)
00:34:46 <Vorpal> those were great games
00:35:07 <Vorpal> and with "properly" I mean "emulator crashed"
00:36:34 <Vorpal> kmc, well, I need to sleep
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00:40:08 <kmc> Vorpal: i got one recently, put Linux on it, but it wasn't stable :/
00:40:30 <kmc> i ran Linux on a lot of 68k and PPC macs back in the day
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00:45:59 <Sgeo> I still feel like 1GB is a lot
00:46:28 <monqy> it depends on what you're putting in that gb
00:46:44 <btiffin> Any 5-7-5 haiku-ey code floating about? I have one in COBOL and wondered if there others. 5-7-5 that compiles and runs to completion without a segfault, whether the execution is nothing but return. If so, is there a common pronunciation guide for BF for counting syllables?
00:46:56 <zzo38> 1GB is a lot for some things.
00:47:37 <monqy> if it's the letter 'q' then yes you can put a lot in there and even compress it, but good luck with that idk lossless anime's or something
00:47:58 <kmc> 5 giga-animes per second
00:48:22 <nooodl> imo count 5-7-5 chars, in BF
00:48:59 <kmc> inc dec left right in out start loop
00:49:32 <btiffin> all singles, nice. thanks.
00:50:32 <kmc> i guess 'sun' counts as a seasonal reference to the summer
00:50:34 <btiffin> 5-7-5 COBOL that compiles and returns fail. Fails as code, and as poetry.
00:51:42 <btiffin> mkc; yep, original is program-id. one. But I took hit on the wikipedia haiku page for asking to put it in, so now it's seasonal.
00:58:53 <btiffin> nooodl: I'm about to put that in the OpenCOBOL FAQ, would you like accreditation?
01:02:37 <nooodl> sure, but i don't know what you could credit me as... "nooodl on freenode"?
01:03:59 <zzo38> ircp://irc.freenode.net:6666/ns/info/nooodl is what I would think is the URL for that (according to the specification I wrote, anyways)?
01:04:26 <ais523> nooodl: I can totally credit people as "nooodl on freenode"
01:05:04 <ais523> also, "appends a U to stdin" doesn't strike me as particularly useful ;)
01:05:47 <nooodl> hey, you try doing something useful in 17 bytes of brainfuck!
01:08:12 <kmc> hm maybe 'inc dec left right in out do while'
01:08:37 <kmc> but it's not quite like a C do-while loop
01:08:55 <nooodl> maybe "start" and "end" for []
01:13:47 <fizzie> (That's in something.)
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01:14:04 <kmc> i'm not sure in what language 'endw' is a single syllable
01:14:06 <ais523> nooodl: I read them as one syllable mentally that doesn't have a pronunciation
01:14:10 <kmc> 'wend' is ok
01:14:16 <ais523> fizzie: "while wend" is BASIC
01:14:21 <kmc> itt: sapir-whorf hpyothesis
01:14:32 <ais523> kmc: it's false, it's easily disprovable on personal experience
01:14:41 <ais523> I frequently have thoughts I can't express in English or any other language I know
01:15:05 <ais523> here's one for you: see:visualise::hear:audialise::taste:?
01:15:07 <kmc> how do you know you really had those thoughts
01:15:16 <ais523> what fits the question mark?
01:15:22 <kmc> shrug, you could describe it in english, it just takes more than one word
01:15:25 <ais523> I can mentally put a single word there, but don't know what that word is
01:15:39 <Bike> Not that I don't think sapir-whorf is garbage, but that's pretty straightforward psychologist's fallacy
01:15:48 <kmc> this seems like a superficial level on which to evaluate the hypothesis
01:15:53 <kmc> and what's the psychologist's fallacy?
01:16:22 <ais523> the sapir-whorf hypothesis is strong, it says that people can't have thoughts that aren't in a language they speak
01:16:23 <Bike> Where you assume your subjective experience is objectively correct
01:16:28 <ais523> so it only takes one thought to disprove it
01:16:33 <Bike> ais523: there's a weak version too.
01:16:37 <kmc> there are different strength versions
01:16:51 <fizzie> ais523: I was likely thinking of the MASM macro language, which has directives .WHILE ... .ENDW.
01:19:01 <nooodl> a haiku about falling snowflakes that prints 255,254,...,1
01:19:04 <ais523> nooodl: this is getting very HOMESPRING
01:19:53 <nooodl> ("a white deck of cards / winter starting out on deck: / shuffled snow descends")
01:20:34 <ais523> and you even worked the season into it :)
01:21:48 <nooodl> you could probably write much more freely if you make up multiple readings for <>+-[],.
01:21:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: I must've missed the other one.
01:22:16 <nooodl> actually "left", "right", "start", "end", "in", "out" are all very usable... but "inc" and "dec" are hard
01:23:32 <ais523> nooodl: don't think about it too far
01:23:36 <ais523> or you'll invent a BF derivative by mistake
01:23:48 <ais523> and then you'll have to face the wrath of Phantom Hoover
01:24:11 <monqy> bf derivative where it's bf but you have to read it a special way or it doesn't make sense
01:24:22 <zzo38> I do not believe that people can't have thoughts that aren't in a language they speak; but it does make it more difficult in some cases, for some people. It also makes it difficult to write and to communicate, though, much more than it does to think of it!
01:24:25 <nooodl> well this is vanilla BF. i guess you could say it's a "coding style"
01:24:42 <ais523> zzo38: yeah, I have huge trouble communicating sometimes for this reason
01:24:43 <monqy> "inc" is kind of like "ink" and you can also write words that have "inc" as a syllable in them
01:25:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes. I, also, think of many things that I don't know if there is any words to describe it.
01:26:09 <btiffin> nooodl: thanks. http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#do-you-know-any-good-jokes
01:26:30 <btiffin> oh, they are COBOL jokes, and I'm lame.
01:26:51 <ais523> add 1 to cobol giving cobol…
01:26:54 <zzo38> Is good thing that they have open-source COBOL compilers.
01:27:06 <nooodl> PERFORM JUMPS THRU FLAMING-HOOPS UNTIL HELL-FREEZES-OVER.
01:27:50 <zzo38> COBOL may even be good for some things, such as business-oriented software.
01:28:01 <btiffin> yeah, well. Lame, I like lame it turns out.
01:29:50 <btiffin> zzo38: I should quote that one too. ;-) But, it's 600 pages of fanboy all positive sunshine and this is grand, so I downplay the many very beautiful diss'es for COBOL. :-)
01:33:26 <ais523> FreeFull: you can mention monad tutorials
01:33:31 <ais523> that's become a joke in its own right
01:33:54 <kmc> Q: how many haskellers does it take to screw in a lightbulb A: monads lolololololololololololol
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01:34:01 <FreeFull> Monads aren't even built into the very core, other than do notation
01:34:21 <zzo38> FreeFull: And the IO monad?
01:34:34 <zzo38> I don't like do-notation that is not implemented as a macro
01:34:41 <FreeFull> zzo38: Well, fine, IO monad too
01:34:51 <FreeFull> Although IO was done differently beforehand
01:35:00 <kmc> IO is just something provided by a library
01:35:06 <kmc> though a p. essential one
01:35:13 <kmc> there are different kinds of 'built-in'
01:35:17 <zzo38> kmc: Although main has to have such type
01:35:26 <FreeFull> Well, the compiler needs to support IO
01:35:28 <kmc> special syntax vs. special library which can't be implemented normally but has ordinary things
01:35:31 <kmc> zzo38: true
01:35:41 <FreeFull> So it can't be pure haskell code with no outside influence
01:38:09 <nooodl> one: [ loop with. an ]
01:38:36 <kmc> maybe it wuold be better if they exported returnIO :: a -> IO a and bindIO :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b
01:38:36 <nooodl> "zero input: once; one: start loop without an end: output same value." a self-describing truth machine haiku
01:39:30 <Bike> so you could Instance Monad IO a later?
01:39:31 <kmc> because then you don't need the Monad type class to do IO
01:39:35 <kmc> it's just a convenient generalization
01:39:56 <zzo38> kmc: Well, there is one, but still the way I would do it is still a bit different. Rather there would be a kind of low-level types, which might be represented in LLVM or whatever, and then have a built-in class for the type of main to make a executable file.
01:39:59 <kmc> people often erroneously believe that they need to understand monads in full generality to do IO
01:40:30 <zzo38> So that you do not need to use a monad but it will still work; furthermore, main can be other types, but it won't make a standaline executable in such cases.
01:40:41 <FreeFull> There isn't much to monads though
01:41:00 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:41:37 <kmc> monads mo problems
01:42:02 <zzo38> It is true, you do not need to understand monads to use IO monad, but it can help to understand the mathematics of it to know how it work with other monads too, and how it make up those same kind of things.
01:48:56 <nooodl> coconuts: actually just regular nuts??
01:49:20 <kmc> cocoa-coated co-cones
01:50:00 <nooodl> hmmm what's the dual to a nut
01:51:19 <kmc> did you know that Berlin had a maglev metro line?
01:51:25 <kmc> it wasn't very good and they shut it down after 2 years
01:52:52 <ais523> I never really got the point in maglevs
01:56:21 <pikhq> Japan's hit about 200mph.
01:57:24 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, their bullet trains *aren't* maglev.
01:57:52 <pikhq> Next year they're starting the switch, which will get you up to 310mph.
01:58:08 <pikhq> So there you go. Maglev is fast.
02:03:54 <Sgeo> I prefer commute times that involve passively riding on the vehicle of transportation
02:03:57 <Sgeo> Requires no effort
02:04:14 <Sgeo> Unlike waiting for something to arrive, or even worse, driving
02:06:41 * Bike imagines Sgeo literally rolling out of bed, down the stairs, onto a passing cart
02:07:23 <FreeFull> I think China has one maglev line
02:07:35 <pikhq> Personally, I want a self-driving car.
02:13:42 <Koen_> wasn't that maginot line?
02:14:58 <ais523> oh wow at what's happening with the Prenda Law story now
02:15:14 <ais523> some bizarre motions from someone who wasn't clearly obviously previously involved
02:15:38 <ais523> and some commentors are guessing that the signature on it was photoshopped, and possibly that the address is fake
02:22:42 <kmc> there's only one maglev train in the world with regular passenger service
02:22:55 <kmc> which connects the shanghai airport to the outskirts of the metro network
02:23:09 <kmc> the M-Bahn certainly wasn't fast and was only 85% maglev by weight
02:23:12 <kmc> so I don't know what the point was
02:27:29 <kmc> he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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02:34:37 <Koen_> I read the whole series of that "monster" manga and they didn't appear to agree with that
02:35:14 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnQA-1qlgI4
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02:36:32 <Koen_> Bike: I was about to make a joke about how mangas were written from right to left. should I watch your video backwards?
02:39:27 <kmc> that's a kind error
02:39:37 <kmc> thatsakinderror.gif
02:40:37 <FreeFull> I was thinking, monads are monoids, but what about applicatives and functors
02:40:55 <Bike> Like, is composition of functors monoidal?
02:41:50 <FreeFull> Probably, since that's the way monads are monoids
02:42:06 <FreeFull> Although I don't think functors have a join
02:42:07 <Koen_> Bike: hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm not sure I understand the ending
02:42:18 <Koen_> how the hell does he find a name afterall?
02:42:25 <Bike> considering monads are literally just endofunctor monoid things i would guess not all functors have to be
02:42:43 <Bike> Koen_: is this backwards or forwards
02:43:01 <Koen_> well it would make more sens backwards
02:43:10 <Koen_> then it would end up with "his name is the nameless monster"
02:43:26 <Koen_> nah Applicatives is not a good name for a monster is it
02:43:50 <monqy> what's this talk about things "Being" monoids
02:44:07 <monqy> you can't just "Be" a monoid you have some operation that forms a monoid over you
02:44:33 <monqy> sometimes theres lots of operations that form different monoids over the same underlying thing!! yikes
02:45:08 <FreeFull> monqy: Ok, by being a monoid I meant "There any operations that form a monoid over"
02:45:15 <Koen_> monqy: was that a metaphor?
02:46:03 <monqy> FreeFull: yes there are plenty of v.stupid operations that you can pick
02:46:20 <FreeFull> monqy: min, max, sum, product, first, last
02:46:38 <FreeFull> Maybe everything is a monoid over first or last
02:46:39 <monqy> Koen_: the trick is to put the audience in the shoes of the monoid
02:47:06 <Koen_> I'll go to bed on that thought
02:47:21 <Bike> Being monoidal is suffering.
02:47:45 <monqy> FreeFull: idk what you mean by any of those words but ok
02:47:49 <Koen_> (Bike: also if you watch the video backwards you'll actually see the storyteller read her book forward)
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02:47:57 <Bike> Wait. Does "monoid" mean literally "mono-like"
02:48:00 <Bike> i just noticed that. wtf
02:48:15 <zzo38> Do you mean "the nameless monster" is his name? That isn't a very good name, if it tell you to be nameless if it has a name. Isn't it?
02:48:33 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
02:48:38 <Bike> zzo38: Did you watch the video, it should explain.
02:48:39 <FreeFull> zzo38: He's not a monster either
02:48:48 <zzo38> FreeFull: Then it is both wrong!
02:48:58 <Bike> monoid m (Cyrillic spelling моноид)
02:49:08 <FreeFull> zzo38: People named Phillip don't necessarily like horses either
02:49:24 <Bike> philip more like FAT am i right.
02:49:58 <zzo38> Many things form a monoid; such as, a ring forms two monoids
02:50:04 <Bike> no because... dick... agh
02:50:37 <FreeFull> zzo38: well, it's part of the definition of a ring
02:51:10 <kmc> the history of monoids is the history of class struggle
02:51:46 <kmc> 'Pyongyang's propaganda machine flung new insults at the United States on Saturday, comparing it to a "boiled pumpkin"'
02:52:15 <kmc> iran contrafunctor
02:52:15 <Bike> [edit] English. [edit] Noun. cofunctor (plural cofunctors). A contravariant functor. thanks
02:52:22 <zzo38> Contrafunctors are sometimes improperly called cofunctors, I think.
02:52:32 <Bike> kmc: did you see the dprk official notice, it was fucking great
02:52:55 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as Quantum Verilog?
02:53:32 <Bike> This sacred war of justice will be a nation-wide, all-people resistance involving all Koreans in the north and the south and overseas in which the traitors to the nation including heinous confrontation maniacs, warmonger s and human scum will be mercilessly swept away.
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02:54:01 <kmc> also it will last about 15 minutes
02:54:04 <Bike> Now the heroic service personnel and all other people of the DPRK are full of surging anger at the U.S. imperialists' reckless war provocation moves, and the strong will to turn out as one in the death-defying battle with the enemies and achieve a final victory of the great war for national reunification
02:54:39 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think so
02:54:46 <ais523> quantum computers don't work anything like FPGAs
02:54:58 <zzo38> It is what I thought.
02:55:10 <monqy> Are you looking for quantum verilog ? Get details of quantum verilog.We collected most searched pages list related with quantum verilog and more about it...
02:55:12 <Bike> kmc: they agree. This war will not be a three day-war but it will be a blitz war through which the KPA will occupy all areas of south Korea including Jeju Island at one strike, not giving the U.S. and the puppet warmongers time to come to their senses, and a three-dimensional war to be fought in the air, land and seas and on the front line and in the rear.
02:55:17 <kmc> what about a ............. Quantum FPGA
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02:55:27 <Bike> field programmable qubit array
02:55:45 <zzo38> Nevertheless, such thing could be made up, possibly, together with time travel and other stuff, some of which is completely impossible: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Verilog Do you have ideas of such things? Post in talk page?
02:56:38 <Bike> "Biological"? That's pretty vague.
02:57:39 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Maybe everything is a monoid over first or last <-- first and last don't have an identity.
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02:58:03 <zzo38> I know it is vague.
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03:01:10 <zzo38> Since it is Esoteric Verilog, such considerations of whether or not it is even possible, is unimportant.
03:01:52 <kmc> Easter Verilog
03:01:59 <Bike> sure, but I'd at least like to know what it is that's impossible
03:02:38 <oerjan> FreeFull: but if you choose one element to be the identity, you can make it behave like first or last on the rest like the haskell First and Last monoid wrappers over Just.
03:02:56 <Bike> Hey somebody elsewhere just pinged me to tell me about Malbolge. Someone gimme a funny esolang to link back.
03:03:32 <zzo38> Bike: Look at it by yourself, please.
03:03:50 <ais523> smetana works on a different level
03:04:01 <zzo38> My idea of quantum computing operation in Verilog is there might be a command "qureg" for register of quantum bits, and "quprimitive" that defines a primitive quantum operator by a matrix; there are others too but I don't know.
03:04:01 <ais523> really, smetana is one of the most self-documenting languages ever
03:04:15 <kmc> zzo38: what about measurements
03:04:28 <ais523> oerjan: there are no example turkey bomb programs to link, though, I thought
03:04:33 <ais523> the joy in turkey bomb is the spec
03:04:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it would need to have that too.
03:04:38 <ais523> also, attempting to implement it
03:04:41 <Bike> unlike malbolge, known for its example programs
03:04:54 <Bike> Is "attempting to implement Turkey Bomb" a euphemism for pub crawling?
03:04:58 <ais523> Bike: there's a hello world on wikipedia, isn't there
03:05:05 <ais523> and no, although that's a funny idea
03:05:30 <oerjan> also a 99 bottles of beer
03:06:05 <oerjan> i just recently had to revert someone on wikipedia claiming that one didn't use real loops.
03:06:34 <ais523> there was a famous one that didn't
03:06:40 <ais523> also outputted in gzipped form
03:07:06 <Gregor> http://www.pengpod.com/products/pengpod1000 Considering getting one of these.
03:07:39 <Gregor> Not sure though *shrugs*
03:08:02 <zzo38> Measurement of quantum registers might be done by using them where classical bits are expected, I suppose, inside of a "always" block, or something like that. Maybe it could be done reverse too, to assign classical to quantum registers inside of a "always" block in order to initialize them?
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03:14:31 <zzo38> My computer stopped twice today
03:16:32 <Lumpio-> Maybe the core memory has finally degraded
03:16:43 <Lumpio-> Or perhaps some of the relays have gotten rusty
03:17:41 <ais523> Lumpio-: I thought modern relays were coated with some non-rustable material
03:17:54 <ais523> they don't even use silver except for high-voltage relays (where the voltage burns off any tarnish)
03:21:11 <zzo38> Is there a ROM cartridge version of Memtest86 which uses the CPU registers so that the program is not stored in the RAM?
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03:28:48 <Gregor> Ugh, I think the keyboard case that the Pengpod store offers is real leather X_X
03:29:01 <Gregor> It's ironic that what would stop me from buying a $170 tablet is a $20 case.
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03:46:51 <zzo38> There is no memory error.
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03:54:18 <zzo38> This time the computer didn't freeze; this time I accidentally touched something.
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04:46:05 <sathiyac2> am new for tis irc can u plz explain how to do
04:46:24 <Bike> `relcome sathiyac2
04:46:27 <HackEgo> sathiyac2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:50:10 <nooodl> hi sathiyac2 what's up
04:54:14 <nooodl> what do you want to learn
04:56:02 <zzo38> Teach you guys what? Please be more specific.
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05:00:43 <Sgeo> Can't teach you anything if we don't know what to teach you
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05:06:04 <Jafet> "Aheui (아희) is the first esoteric programming language ever to be designed for Hangul, the Korean alphabet."
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05:46:33 <HackEgo> ogrom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:52:28 <zzo38> Is what I wrote about quantum computing in Esoteric Verilog good so far? Is some things possibly missing?
05:59:12 <zzo38> qureg [15:0] reg1; initial if(|reg1) destroy;
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06:40:57 <ais523> the problem with quantum computing is you only see one state at the end
06:41:10 <ais523> and you're trying to raise the probability of getting the right one as high as possible
06:42:13 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand that; once measured, it is going to be the same if measured again.
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08:02:14 <zzo38> It seems to me that most (but not all) texts on Magic: the Gathering cards could be compiled by computer, if such a program is existing, especially if there is a separate input syntax which is slightly different from the display syntax, and which can be made easily into the display syntax (for example having "=s" for plurals, "=3" for "three", "~" for the card name, etc)
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08:46:49 <kmc> quantum Magic: the Gathering
08:47:01 <zzo38> kmc: How will that work?
08:48:22 <fizzie> Quantum Magic: the Quarkening.
08:48:32 <zzo38> And how does that work?
08:48:40 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
08:48:48 <zzo38> That is what I thought, too.
08:49:01 <zzo38> But I am not really entirely sure.
08:50:40 <kmc> i don't know how quantum M:tG would work, but you should invent it and then we can talk about it
08:50:57 <kmc> back to bed with me
08:51:02 <zzo38> But I don't know how it works either.
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08:51:11 <kmc> that is why it needs to be invented
08:51:11 <shachaf> kmc: don't you want to hear a bunch of japanese talks about edwardk's packages
08:51:33 <shachaf> they're going on right now in real time
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09:00:06 <Fiora> http://marisa-trie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/docs/readme.en.html so like. acronyms
09:00:18 <Fiora> (apparently the author of 'libmarisa' also wrote 'madoka')
09:00:35 <Fiora> https://github.com/s-yata/madoka
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09:03:54 <Taneb> Isn't Madoka that anime
09:06:10 <fizzie> We have a person colloquially called Marisa at our (well, my former) department; it's from a contraction of Mari-Sanna, her real given name.
09:06:52 <fizzie> The "StorAge" bit is a bit of a reach.
09:12:32 <zzo38> If I invented it, I would have many things different from the actual Magic: the Gathering, but I don't know how it would work with quantum and so on.
09:18:55 <Taneb> I am living proof that trustworthiness does not mean reliability
09:20:59 <zzo38> I would do the game more mathematically, for one thing.
09:23:41 <Taneb> zzo38, then it would be much more niche
09:24:12 <Taneb> Have I done enough in this community to warrant my own page on the wiki
09:25:54 <AnotherTest> probably against the community, sorry to disappoint
09:26:36 <fizzie> The blessed greased rustproof fireproof proof of unreliability.
09:27:49 <AnotherTest> The day Taneb no longer wants a user page, he should get one.
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09:42:58 <Vorpal> <kmc> i ran Linux on a lot of 68k and PPC macs back in the day <-- night
09:48:00 <zzo38> Taneb: Perhsp then it might be much more niche, you may be correct, but, still, it is how I would do.
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10:25:02 <Halite> I plan to make a programming language based on JSON. The syntax will be like ["command", ["arg1", "arg2", ...]]
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10:28:16 <Taneb> That feels like a different syntax for LISP
10:28:26 <monqy> what do you mean by "based on JSON"
10:29:00 <Halite> monqy, it will interpret by JSON-parsing the commands
10:29:23 <Halite> Taneb, I've heard of Lisp but I do not know its syntax.
10:29:39 <Taneb> (command arg1 arg2 ...)
10:29:46 <monqy> so really hardly any of the language is based on JSON...just the concrete syntax
10:30:04 <monqy> would be weird for semantics to be based on JSON (whaaaat??) hence the q.
10:30:17 <Halite> monqy, lolwhat, the concrete syntax is everything in my language
10:30:43 <Halite> the args don't have to be string, they can be anything
10:30:56 <monqy> what do you mean by "everything"?
10:31:06 <Taneb> Can the args be the smell of strawberry?
10:31:39 <Halite> Taneb, just about, yes, if you make a new object type called the smell of strawberry
10:32:04 <Taneb> That's not the same at all
10:32:49 <Halite> Taneb, are you trying to insult me or something
10:32:56 <AnotherTest> (12:30:17 PM) Halite: monqy, lolwhat, the concrete syntax is everything in my language > probably not
10:33:09 <Taneb> Merely point out that your idea needs a lot of fleshing out
10:33:14 <AnotherTest> The syntax of a language is typically not that important
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10:35:22 <monqy> what's the matter; halite made a point about what programming-languages-inclined people are interested in in a language and you just went into a fit...
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10:36:25 <monqy> why are you parting so much
10:36:27 <monqy> are you trying to spam?
10:36:42 <Halite> don't make me part again
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10:37:29 * Halite shall not be disturbed
10:37:34 <AnotherTest> I must say that that is one of the least effective ways of spamming I've ever seen.
10:37:49 <ThatOtherPerson> Incidentally, it's very easy to translate Lisp syntax into JSON
10:37:55 <Halite> AnotherTest, I said STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!
10:38:14 <monqy> halite. you're in a public forum. expect people to talk about things you say.
10:38:30 <monqy> if you don't want people to talk about things you do don't do them!
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10:44:20 <Halite> I think my programming language should be a dialect of Lisp
10:45:14 <monqy> that doesn't really mean much though
10:45:15 <Halite> unless I add [ at the beginning and ] at the end, which then it'd be closer to Haskell than Lisp
10:45:57 <monqy> it can be a "lisp" just fine and have []s in it. plenty of "lisps" let you use []s for clarity
10:47:15 <ThatOtherPerson> Incidentally, I was working on writing a Lisp interpreter in C++ a couple weeks ago.
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10:48:16 <monqy> so it's a parser + some things common to prototypical lisps i guess?
10:48:51 <Halite> I'll call my language 'Ecma Lisp'
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10:49:28 <Halite> it's coded in Javascript - originally ECMAScript - and it's similar to Lisp
10:49:47 <Halite> how about 'LispScript'
10:50:33 <FireFly> That sounds like a lisp preprocessor to ASP
10:51:15 <Halite> what about 'Salt Lisp' - my username 'Halite' means mineral salt - and my language is similar to Lisp
10:54:41 <Halite> well - I'll call it 'JavaLisp' for now
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11:04:15 <Halite> I'd like to know an operation whose functionally completeness is unknown
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11:26:14 <Taneb> CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM SOLVED (tentatively)
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11:57:54 <Taneb> Okay, this seems good
11:58:08 <Taneb> Don't let me mess with my graphics card driver, like ever
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12:08:53 <DH____> That sounds like good advice for life...
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12:10:14 <Jafet> Which Unicode character is CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM SOLVED
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12:23:51 <Taneb> Right, to really test whether the Chinese graphics card problem has been solved...
12:23:58 <Taneb> I'm installing Team Fortress 2
12:24:42 <Taneb> It's about a third downloaded
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12:30:05 <FireFly> Halite: ,_, but JS has nothing to do with Java
12:30:46 <Taneb> They're both programming languages
12:31:23 <quintopia> and they both borrow C syntax conventions
12:31:35 <monqy> FireFly: are you sure you're ok with what you're getting into here
12:32:02 * FireFly leaves before it's too late
12:32:21 <Halite> FireFly, it's just a shortened JavaScript
12:32:32 <Halite> FireFly, it's a shortened word
12:33:16 <Halite> I made a channel for my programming language, tell me if you want me to PM you the channel name
12:34:23 <quintopia> why does a languqge need a channel? is it popular or going to be popular? have you a bot there that speaks it?
12:37:01 <Halite> because - possibly - no
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13:17:00 <btiffin> ideas maybe? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2831
13:18:12 <btiffin> off by frog leading to a nice video of pissing off a frog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3kKf-uBeTo
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13:33:29 <Halite> my language's interpreter for JS has been hosted:
13:33:35 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
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13:38:38 <monqy> have you tested that?
13:39:22 <monqy> I ask because what it does is probably not what you want it to do.
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14:08:26 <FreeFull> btiffin: It's a bit like sleepsort
14:12:45 <FreeFull> btiffin: I can think of a way to implement it without sleeping though
14:13:37 <Halite> why doesn't my language interpreter work
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14:25:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slis: not found
14:25:37 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
14:28:22 <btiffin> FreeFull: thanks for the reference
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14:43:22 <FreeFull> Could just keep a list of all the values to be sorted
14:43:26 <FreeFull> And decrement them continuously
14:43:33 <FreeFull> And check which ones are zero at any given time
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15:28:11 <btiffin> cbrain calls COBOL now, with a " operator, # 23 "subcbrain" # +00000023 +00000042
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15:37:16 <kmc> those who do not know LISP are doomed to reinvent it
15:37:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:37:37 <kmc> Vorpal: middle school sold me 68k macs for $1 each
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15:38:38 <kmc> parts of Mac OS are baked into the ROM so you can't really replace it with Linux
15:39:15 <kmc> instead it would boot OS 7, you would click a program called "Penguin", the screen would go crazy colors as the framebuffer gets overwritten with garbage, and then you're booting Linux
15:39:35 <kmc> since there's no memory protection you could just exec Linux from Mac OS, kinda like LOADLIN
15:40:40 <kmc> but most of the ones I got had the 68LC040 processor with a serious erratum that prevents FPU emulation from working correctly
15:40:55 <kmc> so you can't run most binary Linux distros
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16:12:53 <Vorpal> anyone know how to make Chrome/Chromium NOT do a web search on the local domain. For example, I have a computer named cerberus. If I just type that in the chromium address/search bar, it does a web search instead. Same goes for cerberus.lan. Both of those resolve on the command line. If I want to go there I need to type http://cerberus
16:14:15 <FreeFull> Not as convienient but should work
16:14:21 <Vorpal> yes that works as I said
16:14:24 <Vorpal> but it is super-annoying
16:14:45 <Vorpal> I want a workaround so it goes where I want
16:14:52 <fizzie> "cerberus/" should work.
16:15:09 <Vorpal> okay, that might be sufficiently easy
16:15:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah that works
16:15:35 <fizzie> It should also ask "did you mean http://cerberus/" and remember your choice.
16:16:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it did not ask that
16:16:17 <fizzie> See http://dev.chromium.org/user-experience/omnibox "Single word".
16:16:33 <fizzie> Maybe some later version will.
16:20:38 <Taneb> Okay, I'm crap at TF2
16:20:45 <Taneb> But my computer runs it really well
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16:33:48 <Vorpal> btiffin, what on earth is that
16:34:47 <btiffin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computus http://opencobol.add1tocobol.com/#when-is-easter
16:35:48 <btiffin> I guess you could say it's "bible" for math ?? Maybe?
16:36:26 <btiffin> Oh, and yes, I was wishing you a happy calculation. ;-)
16:38:12 <Lumpio-> meh, Cobol sucks, this is so much easier in PHP
16:38:15 <Lumpio-> http://php.net/manual/en/function.easter-date.php
16:45:18 <kmc> early christians invented COBOL as a way of determining when Easter is
16:46:04 <kmc> PHP can compute the western easter but not the eastern one :/
16:46:36 <kmc> 'easter_date() uses the TZ environment variable to determine the time zone it should operate in, rather than using PHP's default time zone, which may result in unexpected behaviour when using this function in conjunction with other date functions in PHP'
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16:48:10 <elliott> <Halite> it's coded in Javascript - originally ECMAScript - and it's similar to Lisp
16:48:20 <elliott> Halite: actually, javascript was originally called LiveScript
16:48:28 <elliott> ECMAScript is the name it was given later when it was standardised
16:49:06 <elliott> I think ECMAScript might not have the web browsery parts and so it's more like a language family with JavaScript and ActionScript and all that? but I'm not sure
16:50:45 <kmc> well people still call it JavaScript even without the web browsery parts
16:50:48 <kmc> e.g. node.js, rhino
16:50:51 <kmc> but maybe those people are wrong
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16:51:10 <monqy> kind of hard to be "right" about js/ecma/whatever the hell
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16:52:05 <elliott> glad i googled eczemascript: Please help with curing my eczema using hypnosis
16:52:16 <kmc> Halite: the irony (?) is that JavaScript was originally conceived as something very similar to LISP, and it still kind of is if you ignore the concrete syntax
16:52:42 <Bike> what's the irony
16:53:02 <kmc> that Halite is implementing a Lisp-like language with more JavaScripty syntax, in JavaScript
16:53:22 <Lumpio-> Wasn't it originall just Scheme
16:53:46 <kmc> they made the syntax more Java-like and added "Java" to the name as part of some unholy deal with the devil (Sun Microsystems)
16:53:49 <Lumpio-> Then somebody came around and was like "oh no nobody wants to use Lisp" and then the guy who implemented the Scheme support went and made a more C-like language
16:54:02 <kmc> but it's not even C-like, just the superficial syntax is
16:54:12 <kmc> but I guess that's all that 90% of programmers see
16:54:15 <Lumpio-> For uninterested programmers
16:54:18 <kmc> PARENTHESES? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
16:54:25 <elliott> The change of name from LiveScript to JavaScript roughly coincided with Netscape adding support for Java technology in its Netscape Navigator web browser. The final choice of name caused confusion, giving the impression that the language was a spin-off of the Java programming language, and the choice has been characterized by many as a marketing ploy by Netscape to give JavaScript the cachet of what was then the hot new web programming language.[12]
16:54:32 <elliott> your claim is citation needed kmc!!!
16:54:40 <Vorpal> <monqy> kind of hard to be "right" about js/ecma/whatever the hell <-- what about jscript?
16:54:50 <Vorpal> was it the microsoft variant iirc?
16:54:51 <elliott> the claim that someone claimed your claim is citation needed
16:54:51 <kmc> Vorpal: microsoft off-brand javascript
16:54:57 <Bike> the hot new web programming language
16:55:01 <elliott> maybe we can cite it with a link to the #esoteric logs
16:55:07 <elliott> now that you have claimed it
16:55:17 <Lumpio-> JScript is supposed to be exactly like JavaScript but Microsoft couldn't use the name "Java"
16:55:29 <kmc> didn't they also have "Visual J++" for a Java clone?
16:55:37 <Bike> thank god we have a nice reasonable name like Eczema Script now
16:55:41 <kmc> but then they eventually made C# which is not just a Java clone, it's actually better
16:56:01 <Lumpio-> With more features (especially syntactic sugar)
16:56:21 <kmc> yeah, it has the same basic concepts as Java but provides them in an actually usable way
16:57:09 <Vorpal> having coded a bit in both C# and Java I agree with kmc on this one
16:57:18 <Vorpal> C# is significantly nicer to use.
16:57:22 <kmc> Java's basic concepts are really pretty solid
16:57:35 <kmc> pretty simple
16:57:56 <kmc> the problem is that you get absolutely no help abstracting over those to build more complicated things
16:58:17 <kmc> and it's just so verbose
16:58:23 <Vorpal> kmc, delegates are a lot nicer than whan java provide though, even though it is just syntax sugar
16:58:31 <Vorpal> and there are more stuff like that
16:58:35 <kmc> i hated OOP until I learned Python, a language where a new class is 2 lines of code rather than a new file and 10 lines of boilerplate
16:59:05 <Vorpal> kmc, coding OOP in C++ is even worse though
16:59:10 <Vorpal> TWO files per class generally
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17:01:43 <kmc> clearly that's why you should template everything
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17:06:11 <pikhq> Y'mean OOP shouldn't have as much boilerplate as doing it in C?
17:06:36 <kmc> the C++ FQA claims that 'pointer to incomplete struct type' is a better form of encapsulation than anything C++ provides
17:07:06 <pikhq> This is true in terms of degree of encapsulation at least.
17:07:27 <Bike> oh, that reminds me. that code i was reading earlier had a type defined as a pointer to a struct type that was never actually defined. intentionally.
17:07:29 <pikhq> Adding private members breaks ABI. :)
17:07:32 <kmc> it's true that C++ is also boilerplate-tastic, but it's less offensively so than Java imo, because C++ gives you lots of tools (arguably too many) and lets you do what you will with them
17:07:50 <pikhq> Yeah, Java's far worse with it.
17:08:09 <kmc> and so people do come up with lots of clever ways to avoid boilerplate in C++
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17:11:07 <FreeFull> Write haskell implementation in C++
17:11:12 <FreeFull> Write the rest of your code in haskell
17:11:37 <kmc> then you have a bunch of haskell boilerplate instead
17:12:04 <pikhq> Write Haskell implementation in Brainfuck.
17:12:09 <pikhq> Write the rest of your code in Haskell.
17:12:14 <kmc> Haskell is a good language but it's fairly boilerplatey in my estimation
17:12:25 <kmc> not if you're writing a 2 line prime number sieve
17:12:28 <kmc> but like, a real program
17:18:26 <kmc> isn't the correct response "no."
17:18:29 <Bike> So turing complete.
17:18:43 <kmc> (prolog joke)
17:20:43 <FreeFull> A serious answer is that it is turing complete
17:21:04 <FreeFull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog#Turing_completeness
17:21:24 <fizzie> ECMA-232 has a bit of informal text on what kind of host environment is provided by web browsers and web servers that support ECMAScript; but all the parts that are part of the DOM standards are not part of ECMAScript proper.
17:22:42 <fizzie> kmc: The correct response is "Out of local stack." (SWI-Prolog joke.)
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17:29:31 <fizzie> (A classic example: http://sprunge.us/GMEe -- you can be all "you call this a declarative language" after that kind of stuff.)
17:34:24 <ion> Is the problem with the order of the ancestor definitions?
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17:40:49 <fizzie> ion: The order of the two goals in the recursive one, yes. But, I mean, declarative! What's this about order of things.
17:41:21 <fizzie> (You could probably devise a similar example that'd hinge on the order of rules too, since that also matters.)
17:41:42 <FreeFull> Order of declaring things in Haskell doesn't matter as long as it's all in the same file
17:42:17 <Bike> That's different.
17:42:57 <ion> freefull: The order of the alternative definitions of a function matters.
17:43:08 <FreeFull> kmc: What is the least boilerplatey programming language?
17:43:26 <FreeFull> Yeah, it does matter for pattern matching
17:43:51 <kmc> FreeFull: i don't know
17:44:13 <kmc> very dynamic languages generally let you abstract things in very powerful and direct ways
17:44:39 <kmc> but you get less static checking, and less understandable semantics to some degree
17:45:50 <elliott> types can ease reduction of boilerplate
17:45:59 <kmc> a classic example is generic serialization
17:46:13 <kmc> a function that takes any object and writes out its data members (recursively) as JSON or something
17:46:14 <elliott> stuff like scrap your boilerplate-style generics relies pretty essentially on types, even
17:46:39 <kmc> in Python or JavaScript this is very easy because you can directly enumerate the fields of an object, at runtime, as strings
17:46:43 <kmc> in C++ it's a bloody mess
17:46:46 <elliott> and you need static types to do things like choose values based on types (typeclasses), which combined with type inference can help a lot for concision
17:46:58 <kmc> in Haskell it's doable with some somewhat fancy machinery (as elliott is saying)
17:47:11 <elliott> kmc: i think it's actually hard in something like js
17:47:18 <elliott> because your objects are going to have unserialisable things like functions in them
17:47:27 <elliott> and you don't know which of those are "static" or whatever
17:47:27 <kmc> true, but you can detect those and get past them
17:47:43 <elliott> well you fundamentally have to structure your objects in a certain way if you want it to work
17:48:22 <Bike> What do you mean?
17:49:00 <elliott> well if you make an object that stores its name in a field and has a function that uses that field, it'll work
17:49:14 <FreeFull> kmc: .methods or something else?
17:49:15 <elliott> if you make an object that stores a function in a field at construction time that closes over the name it's given, it'll behave the same
17:49:20 <elliott> but it won't be serialisable
17:49:27 <elliott> your serialisation routine will just break things silently or whatever
17:50:04 <FreeFull> The JSON thing could probably be done with the use of GHC generics (GHC-only of course)
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17:50:34 <Bike> i've been wondering about not being able to serialize functions
17:50:46 <kmc> YHC had a thing for serializing functions
17:51:18 <kmc> anyway there are lots of other tricks you can play in dynamic languages that aren't so easy in Haskell, even with Generics and SYB and whatever else
17:51:46 <elliott> haskell doesn't go far enough :p
17:51:47 <kmc> things that look more like generating code, either with 'eval' or just by gluing together lots of functions in a way that's hard to statically type
17:51:56 <FreeFull> Haskell functions don't really have an accessible representation from inside the code
17:52:04 <kmc> dynamically generating classes based on data files
17:52:10 <kmc> automatically generating RPC wrappers
17:52:12 <kmc> stuff like that
17:52:13 <Bike> FreeFull: Lisp doesn't either.
17:52:38 <Bike> I mean compiled functions, not source.
17:52:39 <kmc> FreeFull: I want something like TH that sucks less and also is accessible at runtime
17:52:40 <Halite> [Update] there is a big update to my JavaLisp which will transform the high-level language you know of to a lower-level language.
17:52:55 <Bike> If you want to throw around strings you can do that shit in Haskell too (though not as trivially)
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17:53:12 <Halite> [Update] So, instead of ["print", ["hi
17:53:14 <Bike> Or some parsed format, obviously. Bla bla algebraic types ML bla.
17:53:23 <monqy> [update] did you fix your interpreter bugs i hinted at
17:53:29 <monqy> [update] or test at all
17:53:37 <ion> [update] This is an update.
17:54:02 <Bike> But I've been thinking that with reified environments and a bit of introspection on closures you could do some neat stuff.
17:54:17 <kmc> > fix ("[Update] "++)
17:54:19 <lambdabot> "[Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [Update] [U...
17:54:20 <Halite> monqy, I'm transforming my JavaLisp so instead of using ret(), you have to use "SLIT" and whatever command you want to use to operate
17:54:38 <Halite> please don't spam [Update]
17:54:59 <Bike> what the hell is SLIT
17:55:01 <nooodl_> [update] please don't spam [update]
17:55:17 <ion> [Update] nooodl, this applies to you, too. Do not spam [update].
17:55:22 <fizzie> [suggestion] [offtopic] [meta] [bad] [worse] [dickbutts] I think we should tag any and all channel messages?
17:55:24 <kmc> [update] FYAD is leaking
17:55:35 <Halite> [Update] ion, this applies to you too.
17:55:52 <Bike> kmc: what's TH?
17:55:58 <FireFly> Now Halite's updates are the only one not containing '[update]'
17:56:01 <kmc> LOL WIN OMG CUTE WTF FAIL GEEKY WOOT! TRASHY OLD EW
17:56:42 <Halite> [Lol] What have I got you all into - let's make a tag fad!
17:57:08 <Halite> > "[Update]".split(p);
17:57:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:20: parse error on input `;'
17:57:20 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `System.Random.split...
17:57:21 <kmc> ttants: JavaScript, Haskell
17:57:28 <Halite> > "[Update]".split("p");
17:57:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:22: parse error on input `;'
17:57:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:57:50 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:57:58 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
17:58:02 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
17:58:11 <Bike> I think we already are.
17:58:18 <kmc> posting in this high quality thread
17:58:26 <Bike> Right, so fuck this.
17:58:38 <Bike> Is there metaprogramming that doesn't have to rely on dynamic type information?
17:58:51 <Bike> Expression-manipulation, really
17:58:52 <Halite> Ambiguous occurence `****'
17:59:16 <Halite> It could refer to either `System.Swear.censor...
17:59:29 <elliott> you're allowed to swear in #esoteric you know
17:59:50 <Bike> please, this is a family establishment
17:59:55 <Halite> only when you mention the BrainFuck programming language
18:00:04 <elliott> it's brainfuck, not BrainFuck, btw
18:00:18 <Halite> elliott, I like to formally capitalise letters in that way.
18:00:47 <elliott> i'm... unsure of the meaning of formal being used here, but okay
18:01:03 <Halite> I'm just telling you, JavaLisp is becoming a very low-level language without returns
18:01:13 <FreeFull> Dependent typing sucked me in and now Haskell isn't good enough D:
18:01:50 <FireFly> Halite's compiles-to-JS language
18:01:58 <elliott> FreeFull: trying to actually write code with the current dependently-typed languages should dispel this quickly enough
18:02:21 <kmc> So then I said Can you put your legs behind your head And she was like all Excuse me sir And I was like My tongue can reach into my ears do you want to see And she goes You're not welcome in this McDonald's anymore So I was like Well Actually I'm not welcome in ANY McDonald's and do you know why
18:02:26 <Halite> FireFly, it doesn't compile to JS, it is interpreted
18:02:47 <kmc> Then I just clenched my fists and SCREAMED as I stared straight into her eyes. I got in like a good eight second scream That may not sound like much but try it sometime
18:03:10 <FreeFull> elliott: I've been looking at Idris
18:03:19 <Halite> kmc, I've screamed for nearly that many seconds before
18:03:24 <FreeFull> It needs quite a bit of polish, but is usable enough for me
18:04:18 <Bike> http://achewood.com/?date=11032003 i'm intrigued by this "ice cream shop"
18:04:32 <kmc> there should be a IDE for Idris named Elba
18:05:06 <fizzie> FreeFull: You sounded like that adultcatfinder site there.
18:06:27 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/laughingsquid/4394294275/lightbox/
18:06:47 <Bike> every time FreeFull mentions Idris I think of the actor agh
18:08:31 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, you know, just compare http://adultcatfinder.com/ demo with <FreeFull> [meow] meow [/meow]
18:08:52 <kmc> cat markup language
18:09:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:10:08 <nooodl_> kmc: "a markup language for plaintext files"?
18:10:28 <Halite> JavaLisp has been updated
18:10:30 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
18:11:17 <fizzie> "no" is a good restriction.
18:11:47 <Halite> I should remove that or finish it
18:11:56 <kmc> you should use switch case
18:12:34 <kmc> i don't think you can call this a "dialect of lisp" if it doesn't have functions or cons pairs or anything else that lisp has
18:12:57 <kmc> it looks more like a machine language coded using a JavaScript-style variant of S-expressions
18:13:51 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dwhyzgdfe456j1/JavaLisp.js
18:14:08 <monqy> nooodl_: it's embedded in js soooooooooo
18:14:15 <elliott> kmc: it doesn't have much to do with java either :P
18:14:31 <Halite> elliott, the Java in it is short for Javascript
18:14:37 <kmc> that's true, it does say "This is a dialect of Lisp, coded in JavaScript" tho
18:14:37 <monqy> nooodl_: surprised the first thing you noticed wasn't something about nested expressions. that's sure what i noticed first, on the last ver. too
18:15:04 <kmc> MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS
18:15:04 <nooodl_> is this like an "extension" to javascript, Halite
18:15:15 <nooodl_> or is it a language on its own
18:15:33 <Halite> nooodl_, not exactly. It is a language of its own. It doesn't need control flow yet.
18:16:07 <monqy> i guess it's not quite embedded........
18:16:12 <monqy> im too tired for this
18:16:13 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, I was a bit late commenting on it.
18:19:33 <Halite> it seems to be like Basic
18:19:57 <Halite> I could call it Becma - or ECMA Basic - but ECMA is trademarked
18:20:26 <FireFly> I still like the name ACMEScript
18:20:50 <Halite> JSBasic is a good name
18:21:11 <Halite> I'll rename JavaLisp to JSBasic
18:21:57 <FreeFull> Of course there already is a jsbasic
18:22:19 <FreeFull> Is a BASIC to javascript compiler
18:24:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:25:02 <oerjan> time for new featured language in a few hours hth
18:25:22 <elliott> oerjan: i'll make you an admin so you can be sure it's done
18:25:48 <Bike> "For at least two months, Google employees were exposed to excessive levels of a hazardous chemical after workers disabled a critical part of the ventilation system at the company's new satellite campus on a Superfund toxic waste site. [...]" good, good
18:27:14 <kmc> 'One Google employee who was visibly pregnant was asked if she was aware of risks associated with TCE exposure. "We're really not allowed to talk about it," she said. "Sorry."'
18:27:34 -!- variable has joined.
18:32:29 <olsner> since google does no evil, it must be harmless
18:33:22 <FreeFull> Nobody says who the workers were
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18:40:16 <Halite> I might be calling my language Javarray
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18:41:34 <Halite> how about JSON++ - it suggests JSON + 1, the 1 being the part that is using JSON
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18:41:50 <FireFly> I thought that was the JSON part...
18:42:35 <Bike> pretty sure you should use a randomly generated stream of characters, for max security
18:43:40 <HackEgo> bin: \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ js \ json
18:44:03 <Halite> there is an object Object, a JSON (the 1) object Object++, and the functions (the Sharp) would make it Object#
18:44:15 <HackEgo> bin/js: POSIX shell script text executable
18:44:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \ JAVA_CMD="/usr/bin/java" \ JAVA_OPTS="" \ JAVA_CLASSPATH="/usr/share/java/js.jar:/usr/share/java/jline.jar" \ JAVA_MAIN="org.mozilla.javascript.tools.shell.Main" \ \ ## Fix for #512498 \ ## Change Bootclasspath when using OpenJDK because OpenJDK6 \ ## bundle his own release of Rhino.
18:45:45 <fizzie> It should be OdinMonkey or [insert some kind of latest V8 thing] or something.
18:45:56 <HackEgo> cat: google: No such file or directory
18:46:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
18:46:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Google what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ tail -n 2
18:46:32 <fizzie> It's not a work, right? Those things aren't, right?
18:46:47 <fizzie> At least translatefromto is a broke, I think.
18:47:02 <HackEgo> \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=%68%65%6c%6c%6f' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile
18:47:06 <AnotherTest> what if someone ran rm / -R --no-preserve-root
18:47:16 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Then it wouldn't get committed.
18:47:24 <Bike> `run rm / -R --no-preserve-root
18:47:28 <elliott> and it'd give a lot of permission errors.
18:47:32 <FireFly> What if someone preserved the canary file or whatever
18:47:33 <fizzie> AnotherTest: If you were careful about it, you could remove many things, but then it would get reverted.
18:47:48 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ sli
18:47:55 <HackEgo> rm: descend into write-protected directory `/'?
18:48:06 <fizzie> Heh, it asked a question.
18:48:29 <fizzie> I see /hackenv is getting kind of messy.
18:48:44 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory
18:48:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: accesslog: not found
18:48:47 <HackEgo> accesslog: empty \ a.out: empty \ brainfuck.fu: ASCII text \ canary: ASCII text \ Category:Self-modifying: HTM
18:49:25 <elliott> `run rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm
18:49:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
18:49:35 <elliott> oh it's already a directlry
18:49:49 <fizzie> You did successfully make a hmm.
18:49:50 <Halite> I've finished updating to Object#
18:49:53 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:51:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory
18:51:31 <HackEgo> rm: missing operand \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
18:51:32 <HackEgo> bash: shutdown: command not found
18:51:38 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory | sed 's/\s+/ /g'
18:51:40 <HackEgo> accesslog: empty \ a.out: empty \ brainfuck.fu: ASCII text \ Category:Self-modifying: HTML document text \ dbg.out:
18:51:42 <HackEgo> bash: halt: command not found
18:51:44 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `./*': No such file or directory
18:52:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14263
18:52:17 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:52:18 <elliott> fizzie: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/d6195e6aa777
18:52:24 <elliott> fizzie: it somehow turned canary into a directory?
18:52:50 <fizzie> elliott: Huh, that's really quite curious.
18:53:06 <HackEgo> wget: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
18:53:45 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Don't do it; but you didn't `run, so it all got treated as a single argument.
18:53:59 <fizzie> The -r option was fine; the "- " one wasn't.
18:54:06 <HackEgo> --2013-03-31 18:54:04-- http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2013-03-31 18:54:05-- (try: 2) http://google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently \ Location: http
18:54:17 <fizzie> I think you sort of ignored the first half of that sentence.
18:54:39 <AnotherTest> fizzie: yeah, sorry. I should read properly next time
18:54:48 <Halite> `run echo AnotherTest ...
18:55:01 <Halite> `run echo Hello everyone!
18:55:05 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ Halite \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \
18:55:38 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access add object.#: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access add object.#: No such file or directory
18:56:01 <fizzie> elliott: I can't really figure out where "cannot remove `canary': Is a directory" came from.
18:56:13 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ Halite \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ mnt \ O# \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainb
18:56:24 <elliott> Halite: can you please stop spamming the bot
18:56:45 <Halite> `run echo Hello, elliott.
18:56:58 <elliott> yes, that is an example of the thing you should not be doing
18:57:29 <Halite> let's talk about my programming language called Object# at the moment
18:57:52 <Halite> https://www.dropbox.com/s/danqgqxf48q25hk/Object%23.js
18:58:31 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
18:59:03 <zzo38> Halite: It is also possible to access the bot by private messages too, if it is necessary to do so.
18:59:30 <Halite> let's talk about my programming language
18:59:40 <Halite> it's esoteric of course
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19:01:16 <kmc> generally you can't just walk into a room and demand that the conversation topic change to what you want it to be
19:01:23 <kmc> maybe you can tell us what's interesting about your language
19:03:38 <Halite> it's interesting because its syntax is like this: ["cmd", [arg1, arg2]]
19:03:49 <kmc> that's not interesting
19:04:12 <Halite> WHAT THE HECK IS INTERESTING THEN!!!!
19:04:12 <kmc> who cares where the brackets are, or whether they're square brackets or parentheses
19:04:34 <Halite> my imagination is ****
19:04:49 <kmc> Halite: you should learn about what programming languages actually are
19:04:50 <Bike> syntax <-- hey did i tell you peeps that there was a usenet post that somebody interpreted as "McCarthy invented Haskell back in 1960"
19:04:52 <FireFly> Semantics is usually more interesting than syntax
19:04:53 <Bike> it was p. great
19:04:56 <kmc> start here http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
19:05:04 <Fiora> kmc: I demand that this channel talk about pokemon
19:05:10 * Fiora runs and hides behind Bike
19:05:13 <kmc> 1 2 3 4 5 6 POKéMON!
19:05:19 <kmc> Fiora did you see my AES-NI programs
19:05:22 <elliott> i'd rather talk about pokemon than a language where the syntax is json
19:05:28 <elliott> Bike: anti-communist, functional programmer
19:05:30 <kmc> Alan Perlis was born on April 1
19:05:34 <elliott> Bike: that one doesn't really work either does it :(
19:05:57 <Bike> unfortunately the only joke about "mccarthy" i can think of involves the army trials where he went on about The Gays
19:06:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:06:26 <kmc> elliott: is that like "Brewer, Patriot"
19:06:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
19:06:31 <Bike> and well i'm hardly going to call someone gay as an insult.
19:07:17 <zzo38> Plain text files can be uploaded also using sprunge, by command-line programs or using a HTML form.
19:07:29 <Bike> I guess if it's the Lisp guy i could say something about it atrocious writing, but then i'd just be talking about the shittiness that is GOFAI
19:07:49 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
19:07:53 <zzo38> I want to make pokemon game in SQL
19:08:05 <elliott> gandalf's only father's ailing infantry
19:08:31 <elliott> kmc: i can't read kmcallister is anything but "kay em cee... allister"
19:08:50 <Halite> From the book: 'A computational process is indeed much like a sorcerer's idea of a spirit. It cannot be seen or touched. It is not composed of matter at all. However, it is very real. It can perform intellectual work. It can answer questions. It can affect the world by disbursing money at a bank or by controlling a robot arm in a factory. The programs we use to conjure processes are like a sorcerer's spells. They are carefully composed from s
19:08:52 <Halite> ymbolic expressions in arcane and esoteric programming languages that prescribe the tasks we want our processes to perform.'
19:09:24 <Bike> I'm pretty sure most of us have read it, dude.
19:09:48 <Bike> Or at least you don't need to dump out quotes from the intro.
19:09:59 <kmc> Halite: and the machines that run programs are made by drawing strange patterns on rocks, then dipping them in dangerous chemicals
19:10:01 <fizzie> kmc: For a moment there, I thought AES-NI was a... brand? model? species? of Pokémon.
19:10:06 <Halite> so a programming languages contain the symbolic expression library that the program is prescribed to perform
19:10:07 <elliott> i tell people to read sicp but i'm too cool to actually read it
19:10:13 <kmc> AES-NI, I choose you!
19:10:22 <Halite> that's what my idea of a language was in the first chickening place
19:10:23 <elliott> i only buy pokemon from shelters
19:10:26 <Bike> Wow, the instruction's actually called "key_expand"?
19:10:27 <kmc> Bulbasaur uses CACHE TIMING SIDE CHANNEL. It's not effective!
19:10:36 <kmc> Bike: no that's my macro
19:10:50 <kmc> the instruction is called AESKEYGENASSIST but as the name implies, it doesn't do the whole operation
19:11:02 <elliott> that instruction is a bit too long imo
19:11:03 <Fiora> kmc: what's the shuffling bit in the key_combine for? do we need to reverse the keys or something?
19:11:06 <Bike> "aeskeygenassist" ahahaha.
19:11:10 <elliott> it should have to be AEKYGA or something
19:11:23 <fizzie> AKGNSST sounds mnemonicky, too.
19:11:24 <kmc> Fiora: it's just what gets you from the output of AESKEYGENASSIST to the actual round key
19:11:35 <kmc> i don't know why those steps aren't included in the instruction
19:11:41 <Halite> my idea was that a programming language defines the rules of the symbolic 'spells' that our programs are made of
19:11:52 <kmc> possibly because you need to do other things on different rounds of AES-192 or AES-256?
19:11:58 <Fiora> kmc: I'm guessing too many registers involved? and could be that, yeah
19:11:59 <Bike> OK, but that doesn't actually mean anything.
19:12:15 <Halite> kmc wants to waste my time
19:12:31 <Fiora> Bike: I was making a bad joke about x86 naming <.<
19:12:34 <elliott> pretty sure kmc is right and you should read sicp
19:12:36 <Bike> not you, fiora
19:12:38 <elliott> instead of just one paragraph of the intro
19:12:46 <Bike> this guy */me points*
19:12:47 <elliott> and then insulting him based on your misreading of that singel paragraph
19:12:55 <Bike> as usual this assembly stuff is way beyond me
19:12:57 * Fiora tries to understand kycombine code
19:13:01 <Bike> i can't take this keyassistince
19:13:01 <Halite> Object# does define the rules - 'flow' is a rule - 'alert' is a rule
19:13:08 -!- carado has joined.
19:13:12 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:13:25 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki . ? @ v
19:13:30 <Halite> kmc, I do mean that Object# be atleast Turing complete, nevermind making any sense.
19:13:40 <Bike> Nevermind making any sense indeed.
19:14:31 <Fiora> oooh. so it's calculating
19:14:40 <lambdabot> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=hmm
19:14:49 <Fiora> {P0^V P1^P0^V P2^P1^P0^V P3^P2^P1^P0^V}?
19:15:04 <Fiora> that's some really sneaky shuffling code, I love it
19:15:18 <kmc> stole it from Linux :)
19:15:36 <kmc> hm actually I found some link that illustrates AES key expansion well
19:15:41 <kmc> i should add it to the comments
19:15:52 <Fiora> the comment was there, I saw it!
19:15:56 <Fiora> it just took me some time to figureit out ^^;
19:16:14 <kmc> i mean more about, why is {P0^V P1^P0^V P2^P1^P0^V P3^P2^P1^P0^V} what we want to compute
19:16:36 <kmc> well the answer is just "because that's how AES is specified" but I think there's a nice way of showing the whole dealy
19:16:39 <kmc> going to try to find it
19:17:01 <Bike> Wait, that's all exponentiation?
19:19:02 <kmc> http://www.cs.bc.edu/~straubin/cs381-05/blockciphers/rijndael_ingles2004.swf
19:19:10 <Halite> Bike, the reason I said nevermind making any sense is because kmc is putting pressure on me making me read a 100 000 000 page book
19:19:28 <kmc> Halite: yes because you are ignorant and reading books is a good way to learn things
19:19:56 <fizzie> Oh no, I think my bookshelf is about to collapse. I didn't realize it had that many pages!
19:20:08 <kmc> if you want to remain ignorant and make boring languages, that's fine, but you can't badger us into talking about your boring language
19:20:11 <elliott> Halite: well you are putting pressure on the channel to talk about your language
19:20:14 <elliott> i don't really see how that is any different
19:20:28 <Bike> I wonder if any book (or rather, series of books) has had that many pages.
19:20:28 <Sgeo> "In my fortress everything is weaponised against my own dwarves. Usually unintentionally, but it happens regardless."
19:20:33 <Bike> How many does the Mahabharata have again?
19:20:49 <kmc> how many pages is the US Code?
19:21:09 <Bike> Hm, the critical edition is only 13k.
19:21:30 <fizzie> Bike: Google Book Search indexes 20 million books, so if you can call it a "series" (you can't), in total it'd probably pass that number of pages.
19:21:31 <FireFly> I wonder how many pages the article namespace of wikipedia would require
19:21:40 <Bike> This animation is kind of neat.
19:21:48 <Fiora> kmc: do you know what the deal is with the numbers being passed to key_expand?
19:21:52 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:21:55 <Bike> FireFly: I think they estimated that somewhere.
19:22:03 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:22:04 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `google.com': Directory not empty
19:22:26 <HackEgo> rmdir: invalid option -- 'f' \ Try `rmdir --help' for more information.
19:22:33 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:22:46 <Bike> Hm how many page is Needham's?
19:22:50 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It's an option for rm.
19:22:54 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:22:56 <Bike> I think it's pretty damn long.
19:23:03 <HackEgo> accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ google.com \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist
19:23:17 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_China
19:23:19 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I don't think my rmdir has ever had that option. (Maybe some shell builtin has.)
19:23:23 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the canary being a directory broke this
19:23:30 <elliott> `run rmdir canary; echo chirp >canary
19:23:34 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `canary': No such file or directory
19:23:43 <elliott> oh right because it was an empty directory?
19:23:48 <elliott> well anyway it should work now.
19:23:49 <Bike> Wow, they've been publishing it for fifty years.
19:23:52 <kmc> i guess part of why they split it up is to make the instructions also useful for relatives of AES, like Rijndael with other block sizes, or some of the hash functions that use AES parts
19:23:53 <oerjan> `run rm accesslog a.out Category:Self-modifying dbg.out dkVb20VL foo foo.out foo.err google.com/index.html index.html link prefs prefs.bf
19:23:54 <elliott> Halite: if you don't like the channel then leave.
19:24:00 <HackEgo> bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ google.com \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej \ src \ test \ ul.emm \ wisdom
19:24:01 <Bike> I'm going to assume Fiora has the entire thing.
19:24:13 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `brainfuck.fu src' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
19:24:17 <oerjan> `run mv brainfuck.fu src
19:24:19 <elliott> what is brainfuck.fu even.
19:24:21 <Fiora> kmc: did you get my message? I think it migh have been lost in the flood
19:24:23 <Bike> Fiora: you like chinese history, right.
19:24:31 <HackEgo> bash: ul.emm: command not found
19:24:34 <Fiora> what's going on <_>
19:24:37 <HackEgo> init(1): Operation not permitted \ init(279): Operation not permitted
19:24:40 <kmc> the numbers being passed to key_expand?
19:24:46 <kmc> they're just the round constants
19:24:49 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ google.com \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.rej \ src \ test \ wisdom
19:24:52 <kmc> i think they come from... math somehow
19:24:59 <Bike> kmc sums up crypto
19:25:02 <fizzie> oerjan: I was thinking of doing that kind of thing except couldn't figure out a sufficiently witty "# comment" to put after it.
19:25:03 <oerjan> elliott: my programs in fueue and emmental
19:25:04 <kmc> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijndael_key_schedule#Rcon
19:25:15 <Bike> From The Polynomial They Came, out this summer
19:25:18 <oerjan> fizzie: i considered making a comment but...
19:25:22 <kmc> 0x01, 0x02, 0x04, 0x08, 0x10, 0x20, 0x40, 0x80, 0x1b, 0x36
19:25:57 <elliott> RIP radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*, too beautiful for this world
19:26:24 <Halite> how on earth can I have my language be interesting when my imagination is 1 out of 5
19:26:35 <kmc> learn more things
19:26:44 <kmc> read SICP and read about other esolangs on the wiki
19:26:49 <Halite> kmc, teach me more things
19:26:50 <Fiora> sorry they're being a bit harsh to you Halite :<
19:26:58 <kmc> i'm sure others here can give you suggestions for esolangs that are interesting
19:27:02 <Fiora> but yeah, you should try learning more languages so you have more ideas to run from
19:27:08 <Halite> Fiora, thank you for realising that
19:27:09 <Fiora> there's some super silly and fun esolangs
19:27:09 <Bike> Halite: We have books to sum up things we could say in a more structured, thought-out form.
19:27:10 <kmc> Halite: I'm trying. i'm telling you what to read
19:27:18 <kmc> that's how teaching works, often
19:27:19 <fizzie> Bike: "August 2010: It was announced that Google intends to scan all known existing 129,864,880 books by the end of the decade, accounting to over 4 billion digital pages and 2 trillion words in total" -- that implies a "book" on average has only something over 30 pages. (Well, "digital pages". Whatever that means.)
19:27:27 <elliott> Fiora: you might not be aware of halite's "history" here
19:27:28 <kmc> i'm not going to sit here and type each line from SICP into the channel, one by one
19:27:34 <Bike> fizzie: I imagine they have a lot of garbage.
19:27:36 <kmc> if you do some of the SICP exercises I can take a look and give feedback
19:27:43 <kmc> (i've taught a class using that book several times)
19:27:50 <fizzie> kmc: But are you going to make a bot to sit here and type each line from SICP into the channel, one by one. (Don't.)
19:27:59 <elliott> #esoteric, the most confusing place
19:28:00 <Halite> elliott, I am too weak to suffer kmc's criticism. I admit that myself.
19:28:00 * Fiora crawls back over to the corner and reads aes code and plays anno
19:28:13 <Halite> elliott, I just want peace, though.
19:28:14 <zzo38> I can play pokemon card too!
19:28:18 <Bike> Oh that reminds me kmc, I saw a dots and lines graphic of environments in something pretty unrelated to SICP and thought of you. you've infected me.
19:28:22 <elliott> Halite: you realise he is trying to help you, not criticise you...
19:28:38 <elliott> Fiora: i am as confused as you are
19:28:54 <kmc> this is not the first or second time this has happened
19:28:57 <Bike> kmc: speaking of which you might enjoy looking at the "memory pool system", it's where all that crazy C code I was pasting is from, but it's a pretty cool thingie.
19:29:08 <Bike> If you haven't heard of it, I mean.
19:29:12 <kmc> this one? http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/
19:29:39 <zzo38> I play the old rules, where, among other things, the name+level (or name alone, in the case of trainer cards and energy cards) uniquely identifies a card.
19:29:53 <Bike> You can use malloc and GCd memory in the same program and stuff, and there are multiple mallocs and multiple GCs...
19:29:57 <kmc> oh right, I was going to talk to zzo38 about Quantum M:tG
19:30:00 <kmc> Bike: very cool
19:30:24 <Bike> And it's all in really portable and enterprise-in-a-good-way C, which is a bit intimidating
19:30:33 <Bike> "all" -> "not including that stack scanning"
19:31:25 <Bike> (let's just cast a jump buf to an array)
19:31:38 <elliott> you can do prolog in c by doing that
19:32:12 <zzo38> Actually I don't even play exactly by the old rules; I play that ties stand, although I do have a few additional rules for resolving ties, making ties somewhat less likely than it normally is.
19:32:14 <kmc> zzo38: one idea is that each player's life starts at |20> and can reach any superposition of |0>, |1>, |2>, ... (i.e, a quantum harmonic oscillator?)
19:32:38 <kmc> at some point a measurement is taken (maybe there are cards to force this) and if you have 0 life you lose
19:33:05 <Bike> If a measurement is taken, won't you not be able to be in a mixed state any more?
19:33:34 <zzo38> Bike: With existing cards you can't, anyways, I think, but if it is a new game you could also make up new cards, perhaps
19:33:59 <Bike> Somehow I doubt existing cards have Hamiltonians
19:34:24 <zzo38> kmc: OK, perhaps it can be understood, do you need a state vector with a potentially unlimited number of components?
19:34:52 <kmc> yeah, you would need new cards that have interesting quantum operators
19:35:48 -!- Halite has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:35:49 <kmc> i was thinking that the operators should be set up such that the |0> component of your life represents not taking actions, since you're "already dead"
19:35:54 <kmc> but they can still interfere
19:36:12 <kmc> FreeFull: quantum doesn't have complex probabilities to my knowledge
19:36:28 <kmc> it has complex-valued vectors whose norm can be interpreted as a probability
19:36:36 <zzo38> But there is the possibility to have 0 life and still be able to play, in some cases!
19:36:42 <kmc> the norm is a positive number and things are normalized so it's between 0 and 1
19:37:19 <oerjan> `run mkdir retired; mv radio* retired
19:37:23 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `retired': File exists
19:38:09 <HackEgo> rainbow \ \ retired: \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*
19:38:20 <Bike> THis is a good notice.
19:38:35 <oerjan> no idea what the error message is for
19:38:35 <Bike> Oh, it's april fool's day.
19:39:00 <kmc> not yet (maybe in, Japan?)
19:39:01 <zzo38> Neither in my timezone nor the server time is April Fool day yet.
19:39:16 <Sgeo> Which bot is it that does BF?
19:39:20 <Bike> Where's the bf interpreter, might as well do this
19:39:24 <Sgeo> !bf >++++++++++ [>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++><<<<<<-] >+>++>++++>+>+++> <<<<<< >.>.>.>.>.
19:39:28 <elliott> did you guys see that rainbow freenode notice just now
19:39:50 <oerjan> elliott: i thought that was what Bike was referring to
19:40:12 <Bike> Wait, it's easter. Of course it's easer, I even just ate all this fucking chocolate.
19:40:30 <elliott> unfortunately ###eprog##bhggbyhapu is not a channel.
19:42:17 <elliott> hmm it gets rot13'd to outtolunch
19:42:31 <elliott> 20:42:25 -!- Topic for ###eprog: Welcome to level 1 of one of our quizzes, good luck. Staff won't answer your questions :) #####946684800 — 4102444800
19:42:52 <Bike> This seems too challenging for me :( :( :(
19:42:57 <elliott> probably is houldn't paste that in a publicly-logged channel but whatever
19:43:01 <elliott> these further levels look like work
19:43:05 <elliott> so i think i will not bother
19:43:10 -!- alphabeta has joined.
19:43:23 <zzo38> I suppose if making quantum Magic: the Gathering, you might have other thing too which is superposition and entangled, rather than only the life totals?
19:43:42 -!- Halite has joined.
19:43:42 <HackEgo> alphabeta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:44:09 <zzo38> However, what I do want to make, and know more about, is the mathematical version of Magic: the Gathering cards.
19:44:23 <Halite> I'll have to resort to making another variant of that one-character language
19:44:48 <Sgeo> Googling the numbers gives something interesting
19:44:51 <Halite> it will be minimalistic
19:46:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:46:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:47:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
19:47:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:48:07 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
19:48:13 <oerjan> `run rm slist.rej rainbow; mv egobot.tar.xz src; rmdir google.com
19:48:17 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `google.com': No such file or directory
19:48:29 <oerjan> this is quite ridiculous.
19:48:59 <elliott> I already got rid of google.com, I think
19:48:59 <oerjan> Gregor: i think HackEgo has significant problems handling empty directories
19:49:03 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:49:06 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ retired \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:49:14 <elliott> hg doesn't track empty directories at all -- wait why would it list the errors twice.
19:49:16 <HackEgo> google.com: ERROR: cannot open `google.com' (No such file or directory)
19:49:17 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `bin': Directory not empty
19:49:39 <Gregor> oerjan: HackEgo cannot handle empty directories. Period.
19:49:43 <oerjan> elliott: file showed it as being there before i did that command.
19:49:59 <oerjan> Gregor: it would be nice if it actually _removed_ them properly hth.
19:50:19 <oerjan> Gregor: oh well it seems to be gone now.
19:50:23 <zzo38> Much of which can also be represented in Haskell such as by a Timestamp type. Timestamps are ordered and all objects have unique timestamps, in all zones. The timestamp is corresponding to an existing object or is failing if the object no longer exists (it is never reused). Every object has an optional initial state, and the initial state is idempotent.
19:51:50 <zzo38> Tokens have no initial state. However, now tokens can exist in any zone, such as on the stack, too.
19:52:41 <oerjan> i think HackEgo ./ is fairly clean now.
19:52:56 <zzo38> Furthermore, no more planeswalker type. There will be a new type, which is somewhat similar but also different; if the object is in play, it is a player and a object. If it wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
19:53:17 <zzo38> It belongs to the same team as its controller.
19:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: hackego behaves really weirdly if you do this, also:
19:53:25 <elliott> `run rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm
19:53:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
19:53:48 <elliott> Gregor: your guess as to how on earth those rm/mkdir errors produce that result is as good as mine.
19:53:52 <oerjan> `run mv retired/* share/; rmdir retired
19:53:53 <elliott> Gregor: wait... I have a guess.
19:53:56 <elliott> 20:49:01 <elliott> `ls google.com
19:53:56 <elliott> 20:49:03 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:54:00 <elliott> Gregor: is hackego running every command *twice*?
19:54:06 <elliott> that would explain that output of my canary line
19:54:14 <elliott> `run rm -r canary; echo chirp >canary # restore it back
19:54:25 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access re*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access re*: No such file or directory
19:54:26 <zzo38> At least to me, such thing is less klugy than existing planeswalkers rules. (It must be called something else, because the name "planeswalkers" is confusion with "plainswalk".)
19:54:37 <elliott> ...though it would not explain that
19:54:57 <oerjan> elliott: ls _does_ show error messages twice btw, an unfortunate side effect of the prevention of listing wisdom/
19:55:00 <elliott> well I give up on understanding
19:55:13 <elliott> oerjan: shouldn't the first invocation be run with 2>/dev/null?
19:55:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
19:55:41 <kmc> Fiora: oh here's a better version of that rijndael animation: http://www.formaestudio.com/rijndaelinspector/archivos/rijndaelanimation.html
19:56:00 <kmc> key schedule starts on step 14
19:56:09 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/| grep/2>/dev/null | grep' bin/ls
19:56:10 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 14: unknown option to `s'
19:56:25 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/| grep/2>\/dev\/null | grep/' bin/ls
19:56:36 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:56:44 <oerjan> elliott: thanks for tip
19:56:59 <elliott> ideally it would somehow run the second ls with argv[0] = "ls" so that the errors also used "ls:", but you can't have everything :P
19:57:37 <oerjan> well unless you know a way.
19:57:39 -!- alphabeta has left ("Leaving").
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19:57:53 <elliott> well you could do it in C.
19:58:06 <elliott> apparently you can do exec -a ls /bin/ls ...
19:58:23 <kmc> does bash let you exec a program with empty argv?
19:58:38 <elliott> `run exec -a '' /bin/ls google.com
19:58:39 <HackEgo> : cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
19:58:49 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:59:28 <kmc> shachaf taught me about empty argv
19:59:34 <zzo38> I also don't like the name "loyalty" counters; instead, this new one, has life counters, where its life total is equal to the number of its life counters, and ordinary rules for life totals and state-based effects are used. Blocking attacks to such a card is allowed if that card controls any creatures! An alternative is a rule allowing your cards to block attacks to teammates who have no cards able to block; this would have other effects, too, poss
19:59:37 <kmc> now I can find at least one bug in any C program
19:59:39 <kmc> which is a useful party trick
20:00:53 <Bike> does posix allow null argv?
20:01:35 <fizzie> I don't think C allows a null argv either. (An empty one it does.)
20:01:57 <fizzie> The rule about "argv[argc] shall be a null pointer" in e.g. C11 5.1.2.2.1p2 does not seem to have any exceptions.
20:02:07 <zzo38> I called this type "playercard" although it might not be the best thing to call it either.
20:02:40 <fizzie> (Unless by "null argv" you meant exactly that; argc == 0, argv[0] == 0.)
20:02:44 <FreeFull> !bf >++++++++++ [>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++><<<<<<-] >+>++>++++>+>+++> <<<<<< >.>.>.>.>.
20:02:44 <elliott> Fiora: argc = 0, argv[0] = NULL
20:02:52 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
20:02:56 <Fiora> elliott: oh. getopt seems check for argc<1 and handle it right?
20:02:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^752131 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec /bin/ls "$@"; fi
20:03:05 <Fiora> if I'm reading this right
20:03:13 <Fiora> also wow gnu coding style is weird
20:03:26 <HackEgo> `? \ ? \ ?? \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ $1? \ ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bike \ bird \ boily \ bonvenon \ bookwatching \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ category \ category-helpdesk \ certainly \ certainty \ claustrophobia \ coffee \ color \ colour \
20:03:39 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think that is in the right place
20:03:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?brainfuck: not found
20:03:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdom: not found
20:04:03 <oerjan> elliott: it doesn't censor wisdom
20:04:22 <oerjan> elliott: alternatively, how do do _just_ stderr and not also stdout
20:04:33 <elliott> well ls wisdom only appears to ping six people now and I don't remember any of them being one of the ones who complained
20:04:39 <elliott> oerjan: that is what 2>/dev/null does
20:04:45 <elliott> perhaps place it after the grep instead or something? I am confused
20:05:02 <zzo38> If you don't need it anymore, then just delete that file now
20:05:15 <oerjan> `run /bin/ls -id wisdom
20:05:16 <zzo38> Or rename it, in case you need it again later, it can be restored easily.
20:05:29 <fizzie> Fiora: There are many getopts, so it's a bit hard to make any statements what "getopt" in general does.
20:05:53 <oerjan> elliott: _or_ it could be that wisdom's inode number has changed. hmph.
20:06:29 -!- alphabeta has joined.
20:07:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:07:21 <elliott> oerjan: oh that makes sense.
20:07:40 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/752131/752129/;s/exec/exec -a ls/' bin/ls
20:07:52 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
20:08:10 <oerjan> elliott: apparently not :(
20:08:14 <fizzie> Fiora: FWIW, I didn't see any *obvious* sanity checks for argv[0] not existing -- and the code later freely uses argv[0] in error messages -- in glibc getopt. But I could've missed them. And I was looking at a random version.
20:09:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/ls
20:09:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access google.com: No such file or directory
20:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: that inode thing will probably break again :(
20:10:21 <oerjan> alphabeta: one of our bots. it runs a sandboxed linux backed by a mercury repository.
20:10:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:11:08 <lambdabot> *** "mercurial" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:11:12 <lambdabot> adj 1: liable to sudden unpredictable change; "erratic
20:11:13 <lambdabot> behavior"; "fickle weather"; "mercurial twists of
20:11:15 <lambdabot> temperament"; "a quicksilver character, cool and willful
20:11:20 -!- ggherdov has joined.
20:11:24 <oerjan> fizzie: sounds like HackEgo all right.
20:11:45 <HackEgo> GgHeRdOv: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
20:16:41 <oerjan> you're welcome! literally!
20:17:27 -!- Taneb has joined.
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20:22:02 <Halite> SICP only says what you'd find in a real programming language
20:22:23 <Halite> what could make my language interesting, different from others in its own unique way
20:22:29 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:24:01 <kmc> you read the entire book in like 20 minutes?
20:24:18 -!- heroux has joined.
20:24:28 <Halite> the book will only tell me what is boring
20:24:36 <Halite> and the book itself is boring
20:25:10 <Halite> I'm a little child in a bedroom on a laptop trying to relax.
20:26:01 <Bike> The problem is that interesting things aren't so simple. It takes effort.
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20:28:13 <oerjan> Halite: the point is that it's hard to make an interesting language unless you know about the variation in languages that already exists. otherwise you end up just reinventing something that already exists with a slightly different syntax.
20:29:53 <oerjan> also your language won't be truly interesting unless it contains a genuinely new idea - which you cannot get from books, at least not books about programming languages.
20:29:53 -!- Halite has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:30:25 <oerjan> @tell Halite the point is that it's hard to make an interesting language unless you know about the variation in languages that already exists. otherwise you end up just reinventing something that already exists with a slightly different syntax.
20:30:29 <elliott> I have a slight feeling of hopeless doom.
20:30:33 <oerjan> @tell Halite also your language won't be truly interesting unless it contains a genuinely new idea - which you cannot get from books, at least not books about programming languages.
20:30:38 <Taneb> Of my languages, I think maybe two have an original idea
20:30:56 <Taneb> Luigi isn't original at all
20:30:56 <elliott> uh oh, oerjan's going to take over the world again
20:31:03 <Taneb> Neither is MIBBLLII
20:31:21 <Taneb> Not Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
20:31:40 <Bike> No I'm pretty sure that last one is.
20:31:47 <Bike> It's a Nora world and we're all downloading in it
20:32:20 <Taneb> Nah, it's just a new syntax for Lambda Calculus
20:32:21 <oerjan> Taneb: my second point is not entirely absolute. there _is_ also the matter of esthetics.
20:32:48 <Taneb> Fueue is /possibly/ original
20:32:51 <oerjan> but ... it has to be somewhat new esthetics too, presumably.
20:33:29 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:33:44 <oerjan> sorry, sprinkle a's as appropriate
20:34:08 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
20:34:17 <oerjan> (my excuse is that there's not any a in the norwegian word)
20:34:40 <Taneb> aesthetics is the English word
20:34:42 -!- iamcal_ has joined.
20:35:00 <Bike> "esthetics" is a fine spelling.
20:35:16 <kmc> itidus => shubshub => halite
20:35:30 <Bike> They're the same person?
20:35:47 <kmc> not what i meant
20:36:01 <Bike> The same person in spirit.
20:36:16 <Taneb> itidus was actually fun
20:36:41 <oerjan> Taneb: also i think Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download has some aesthetic appeal.
20:36:45 -!- Hekos has left ("Leaving").
20:36:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, hey I have a great idea for a new original language! It is like brainfuck, but with pointers. I'm /sure/ nobody thought of that before.
20:36:59 <kmc> pointerfuck
20:37:02 <Taneb> oerjan, the aesthetic appeal is ripped straight fro BIT
20:37:11 <oerjan> it's not _me_ you should be hiding from, Vorpal.
20:37:12 <Vorpal> kmc, at least it is ONE step above brainfuck with different syntax
20:37:23 <elliott> oerjan: the aesthetic appeal is the name
20:37:34 <oerjan> elliott: and the syntax.
20:37:37 <elliott> a truly innovative language would be a waste if you used that name
20:37:41 <elliott> because the name would overshadow it
20:38:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what, you think Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is an unusual name?
20:38:21 <Vorpal> what, I say stuff like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download in everyday conversation all the time.
20:38:25 <Taneb> oerjan, BIT is like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, but based on C rather than lambda calculus
20:38:32 <Vorpal> Although, maybe that is why I have no friends
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20:38:55 <elliott> Vorpal: the reasons you have no friends are numerous, I am afraid
20:38:58 -!- btiffin has left.
20:39:04 <elliott> hmm, Vorpal rivalry just doesn't feel the same any more.
20:39:10 <elliott> I miss the glory days of 2008.
20:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, outside of this channel I have a fair number of friends. Both on IRC and in real life. Not a HUGE amount, I'm an introvert.
20:39:30 <Taneb> Back when elliott was the only person in Hexham
20:39:48 <Bike> You had a rivalry?
20:40:02 <Bike> Did you make out?
20:40:07 <Taneb> I have more circles of friends than some of my friends have friends
20:40:37 <elliott> Bike: what you don't realise is that Vorpal used to be even worse!
20:40:38 -!- constant has changed nick to variable.
20:40:54 <Vorpal> Bike, also elliott used to be even more annoying
20:41:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: even he admits it, i think
20:41:58 <Vorpal> well yes, and I admit I have grown up since then too
20:42:03 <elliott> oerjan: watch it if you don't want that adminship.
20:42:05 <Vorpal> nothing strange with both of us growing up
20:42:09 <kmc> is making out thought to be a way to generate rivalries or resolve them?
20:42:14 <kmc> could go either way
20:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, admin of wiki?
20:42:34 <Bike> It's a continuation.
20:42:56 <Vorpal> Bike, I don't think making out would have been legal considering the ages of the participants.
20:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't you like 13 back then?
20:43:05 <oerjan> if we didn't get newbies in here, i would long since have become the most immature person in the channel just by all these people passing me.
20:43:16 <Bike> Don't you have romeo and juliet laws in Hexham
20:43:30 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait, you are... 17 now?
20:43:40 <Taneb> Sounds about right
20:43:55 <Taneb> He's about 10 months younger than I am
20:44:06 <oklopol> elliott will always be 12 to me
20:44:15 <Vorpal> oklopol, and always 13 to me heh
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, you can get a driving license soon
20:44:34 <Vorpal> same goes for Taneb I guess
20:44:43 <Taneb> Vorpal, we can both get driving licenses now
20:44:48 <Taneb> I can drink and vote
20:44:52 <Taneb> And have done both
20:44:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, wait, what? What is the limit on driving license in UK?
20:45:04 <Taneb> 17 until next year
20:45:11 <kmc> Taneb: at the same time?
20:45:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it is 21 for buying alcohol in Sweden
20:45:36 <Taneb> kmc, no, but I voted Lib Dem, so I may as well been drunk
20:45:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, so are they going to raise it to 18 next year?
20:46:02 <kmc> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2349/2767290876_424fd45275_z.jpg
20:46:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, for the license I mean
20:46:20 <kmc> Taneb: haha
20:46:32 <kmc> Lib Dems: It Was Worth A Shot
20:46:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, do you have a license?
20:46:48 <kmc> did you vote in the voting referendum too
20:46:51 <Vorpal> Taneb, training for one?
20:47:02 <Taneb> Don't have the confidence
20:47:18 <Vorpal> it gives a great freedom once you have it.
20:47:24 <Taneb> I'm still a bit scared of being a passenger in a car
20:47:30 <Taneb> (but I'm fine on planes...)
20:47:48 <Taneb> Fine on trains, iffy on buses
20:47:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, tandem bicycles?
20:48:12 <Taneb> Depends on the size of the boats, never tried hovercrafts, tandems, or subs
20:48:16 <elliott> well planes are less dangerous than cars
20:48:19 <Taneb> And I'm learning to unicycle
20:48:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, god, I would be scared on a unicycle
20:48:33 <Bike> are you a princess?
20:48:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, what about a normal bicycle?
20:49:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, It probably is once you learn it yes
20:49:22 <Vorpal> oklopol, I have a terrible sense of balance though. Not going to help.
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20:49:44 <Vorpal> oklopol, let me put it this way: I have a hard time standing on one leg.
20:49:57 <oklopol> standing on one leg is easy to learn
20:50:13 <oerjan> Vorpal doesn't have a leg to stand on.
20:50:22 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm not the most fit of people
20:50:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, why are you scared of cars and busses?
20:50:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, didn't grow up going in them very often?
20:51:00 <Taneb> I get motion sickness easy?
20:51:09 <Taneb> But I've been travelling by car most of my life
20:51:09 <oklopol> i never get motion sickness
20:51:14 <oklopol> but cars are fucking scary
20:51:31 <Vorpal> Taneb, having problems sitting backwards in trains or busses then?
20:51:36 <elliott> Vorpal: cars are stupidly dangerous
20:51:40 <Taneb> I can sit backwards in trains fine
20:52:21 <Vorpal> I once got motion sickness in a vehicle, but that was by looking through binoculars from a moving car. Oh and once at an amusement park.
20:52:51 <Vorpal> elliott, so when will you get your driving license?
20:53:08 <fizzie> Our drinking age is 18 for anything, but I think there's some higher number for buying the good^Wstrong stuff?
20:53:44 <Taneb> I'm (relatively) fine on rollercoasters
20:53:49 <Taneb> Not on water rides, though
20:54:06 <Taneb> elliott's actually a chatbot
20:54:49 <kmc> elliott is actually a submarine
20:55:01 <Vorpal> Taneb, the one I got motion sickness from was one of those things where you are sitting in a smallish (5 people or so) spinning cup, mounted on a bigger spinning circular pad, mounted on a much larger spinning platform.
20:55:23 <Vorpal> think it was called the whirlwind or something like that
20:55:24 <Taneb> A waltzer? Those are fun :)
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20:55:32 <Vorpal> Taneb, no idea what that is
20:55:38 <kmc> mmmmmmm epicycles
20:55:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, googling suggest that is not a flat thing, this was
20:56:26 <impomatic> Hmmm... what next? "Room topic is: Good job! Level 1 completed. | pTShnJAmo3W0"
20:57:24 -!- heroux has joined.
20:57:30 <fizzie> Possibly one of those April Fool's puzzle things?
20:57:33 <fizzie> It's the season for it.
20:58:07 <Vorpal> oh yeah, have to put a warning on my door handle... Don't like being fooled when I'm half awake
20:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal's endless amounts of friends will be trying to fool him
20:58:41 <impomatic> Its the freenode thing... https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here
20:59:00 <Vorpal> elliott, actually probably just the family at that point
20:59:41 <Taneb> Vorpal doesn't have any friends, remember?
20:59:46 <kmc> the problem with cars is that they aren't scary enough
21:00:00 <Vorpal> Taneb, I do, only a handful though
21:00:05 <kmc> they kill over a million people per year, but they aren't scary like sharks and lightning strikes and terrorists
21:00:18 <Taneb> Vending machines kill more than sharks
21:00:19 <Vorpal> kmc, also that there are no good alternatives unless you live in a city
21:00:25 <fizzie> impomatic: Are there multiple "level 1"s? Because my second channel topic said ":Congratulations, welcome to level 2, [a different clue here]".
21:00:31 <kmc> seems like a p. good reason to live in a city
21:00:42 <Taneb> Vorpal, Hexham has decent trains and buses
21:00:50 <elliott> kmc: law whereby cars are required to look really evil
21:00:51 <Vorpal> kmc, for example, it would take almost 1.5 hours for me to go to work by bus. 20 minutes by car.
21:01:02 <Taneb> And is small enough you can walk right through it in half an hour
21:01:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, sure, so does the city I work in
21:01:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, but I live in a small town outside, just 20 000 inhabitants
21:01:16 <kmc> Vorpal: well another option is a taxi: a car driven by a professional driver, rather than by some random sleep deprived drunk asshole
21:01:17 <Taneb> Hexham has less than 12000 people
21:01:22 <kmc> however those are usually prohibitively expensive
21:01:28 <Vorpal> kmc, crazy expensive though
21:01:43 <kmc> i don't claim there should be no cars anywhere ever, but our cost:benefit calculation is way off
21:02:03 <fizzie> I can drive legally, and do it maybe once or twice a year, which might mean something w.r.t. the cost/benefit of doing the not-that-cheap driving schools and whatnot.
21:02:23 <kmc> one of the things in the USA is that the Republican party basically never wins any major city, so whenever Republicans are in power, or even in a position to obstruct things (which is basically always), there is no spending on non-car modes of transport
21:02:27 <Vorpal> kmc, also I would never drive drunk. I'm a teetotaler, so I'm never drunk anyway. And I make sure to go to bed early if I need to drive (rather than traveling with someone else in the family who is also going to work at the same time that day.
21:02:38 <kmc> even in deeply deeply Republican states, Democrats win the cities
21:02:41 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, I know you won't
21:02:49 <kmc> problem is that other people will, and your safety depends on what they do too
21:03:02 <elliott> in the perfect utopia of sweden there is no crime
21:03:03 <Bike> http://www.invinsibleforce.com/ Behold.
21:03:08 <Vorpal> kmc, also people who are not drunk OR tired, yet are still idiots
21:03:30 <Bike> "The next coming of Time Cube" -- a giant ant who speaks to me in dreams
21:03:34 <impomatic> fizzie: I've no idea... I just looked at it now
21:04:12 <Vorpal> Bike, the fuck... The same guy?
21:04:24 <Taneb> I thought he died of cancer or something
21:04:28 <kmc> it's possible to do something dangerous every day and stay safe and vigilant -- many professions involve this -- but that's not how most people approach driving
21:04:53 <Vorpal> Bike, lunatic or someone making fun of the time cube guy?
21:04:56 <fizzie> impomatic: Well, uh; I went to the brainfuck-output channel, where the topic was "Welcome to level 1 of one of our quizzes, good luck. Staff won't answer your questions :) [clue]", and followed that to the place which says that thing about level 2.
21:04:58 <Bike> Probably a loonie.
21:05:26 <Vorpal> Bike, the design is actually slightly less terrible than the time cube guy
21:06:12 <elliott> fizzie: there's also another channel if you rot13 the other channel name it has
21:06:12 <Bike> I know what you thinking here... That a banana can't exist forever... thats right.
21:06:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you talking about
21:06:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: <impomatic> Its the freenode thing... https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here
21:06:42 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, but I thought that was just some of their social channel.
21:06:46 <fizzie> The name sounded kinda familiar.
21:06:52 <elliott> no it has anothe thing about levels in the topic.
21:07:17 <fizzie> Mhm. Perhaps they have two branches.
21:07:20 <Taneb> Volume 6 is probably my least favourite Homestuck album
21:07:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I like the captcha I got on that comment form on the page; "Having fuuuun"
21:07:31 <Taneb> But I like most of the songs
21:07:44 <Taneb> It's just Game Bro and I Don't Wanna Miss a Thing
21:09:00 <fizzie> elliott: Seems like there's a third "level 1" too, from the textual clue.
21:09:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can be bothered, I just felt that as a #esoteric member of good standing I had to run the brainfuck bit.
21:13:12 <kmc> i wonder how Rijndael's key schedule stacks up against other PRNGs with only 128 bits of state
21:13:30 <kmc> and whether, given hardware acceleration, it might be worth using in e.g. Monte Carlo simulations
21:14:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 1 completed. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:15:39 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
21:15:52 <fizzie> oerjan: That'll make everyone joining hastily read through the entire channel logs in search of a clue.
21:19:20 -!- Extreme has joined.
21:19:26 <kmc> troll mode engaged
21:20:21 <HackEgo> EXTREME: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:20:26 <Fiora> kmc: it makes a good hash, right?
21:20:35 <kmc> Fiora: I added some more details on the key schedule and stuff: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples/commit/060c39b4a2dc8936416632e86d4ba1ee101fdb5c
21:20:38 <Fiora> so I'd figure it must have pretty okay randomness properties
21:20:39 <kmc> Fiora: i don't know
21:20:52 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:20:52 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:21:00 <Fiora> or oh. you just mean the key schedule, not the encryption itself?
21:21:03 <Fiora> I have noooo idea then
21:21:31 <Extreme> /topic says Level 1 completed. Level 1 of what? :S
21:21:51 <kmc> there are some pretty simple linear relationships between words of consecutive round keys
21:21:52 <Taneb> Level 1 of Esoteric, of course
21:21:56 <kmc> so that's probably not good for a PRNG
21:22:00 <kmc> even a non-cryptographic one
21:22:25 <kmc> also GitHub is doing something where the font gets huge when I resize the window
21:22:28 <kmc> anyone else see that?
21:22:29 -!- heroux has joined.
21:22:56 <kmc> fucking hipsters, I bet it looks fine on a Retina MacBook
21:23:40 <Fiora> also curiously it looks like aeskeygenassist is a good bit slower than aesenc on sandy bridge
21:23:47 <Fiora> but it's apparently fast on bulldozer (?) strange
21:24:07 <kmc> it makes sense that they wouldn't optimize it as much, I guess
21:24:29 <Fiora> aesenc/dec is 8/4 with 2 uops, aesimc is 2/2 with 2 uops, aeskeygenassist is 8/8 with 11 uops (!)
21:24:34 * Fiora figures the last is microcoded
21:24:46 <kmc> what are these numbers e.g. 8/4?
21:24:56 <Fiora> latency/inversethroughput
21:24:57 <Taneb> Fiora, have you seen 0x10c?
21:25:05 <Bike> the notch thing?
21:25:15 <Fiora> on the same chip, like, for reference
21:25:19 <kmc> in units of the processor clock ticks?
21:25:33 <Fiora> multiply: 3/1, add/bitmath: 1/0.33, simd multiply: 5/1, floating point add 3/1
21:25:40 <Taneb> It was a game Notch was making, but all that's happened is specs for a CPU and a simple character creator have emerged
21:26:06 <kmc> so like an AESENC finishes in 8 ticks, and you can retire one every 4 ticks?
21:26:42 <Taneb> But the CPU has ended up with a kinda big community?
21:27:01 <kmc> and an integer addition takes one tick and you can do 3 of them at once?
21:27:49 <Fiora> throughput is "how many can you do every clock if you run a bunch of independent instructions"
21:27:55 <Fiora> latency is "how many can you do per clock if each one depends on the last"
21:27:59 <Fiora> er, inverse of that
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21:31:12 <oerjan> is this a good time to admit i had no idea what i was putting into the topic when i did so
21:31:34 <kmc> if it's a lie then we fight on that lie
21:31:43 <Fiora> so I guess for this throughput is probably the main thing that matters
21:32:08 <Fiora> sorry, I should have defined the notation before using it -_-
21:32:20 <kmc> it makes sense now :)
21:35:05 <Taneb> I've got a book published in early 2003 about web standards
21:35:30 <Taneb> It's all like "Most browsers don't support this yet, but IE 6 does! So does Mozilla!"
21:35:44 <Bike> I learned HTML from one of those.
21:35:45 <Lumpio-> <FONT SIZE=+8><H1><MARQUEE>Web Standards Committee</MARQUEE></H1></FONT>
21:36:25 <Fiora> kmc: also like, throughput is actually sort of a derived value of three things, the number of uops, which pipes it can use, and how often those pipes can issue
21:36:41 <Fiora> most things use one uop (or maybe two, like a load-execute instruction) so that's usually pretty simple
21:36:59 <Fiora> and most uops can issue every cycle (looks like AES is an exception though...)
21:37:10 <Fiora> so for most things it's just "which pipes can it use"
21:37:25 <Fiora> which can become an issue if you write a function that uses, say, almost only pipe-0 instructions
21:37:38 <Fiora> then it goes slow because it mostly can only issue one instruction per cycl
21:37:56 <Fiora> and the other pipes kind of sit around and play card games
21:38:05 <Taneb> XHTML 2 never really happened, did it
21:38:15 <elliott> Fiora: cpu-accelerated solitaire
21:38:21 <Fiora> sorry if I'm rambling <.<
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21:38:31 <kmc> not at all :)
21:38:45 <kmc> so is there a simple chart of which instructions use which pipes?
21:39:01 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:39:06 <Lumpio-> I wish XHTML happened .__.
21:39:07 <kmc> i assume there are lots of functional units for simple integer and floating point stuff, and fewer for rarer things?
21:39:16 <Lumpio-> Stupid HTML5 hipsters ruining the syntax
21:39:29 <Lumpio-> The new features are OK but the original syntax of HTML full of irregularities is awful.
21:40:15 <Fiora> http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf has everything but there's a few very simple pattrens, and I think intel/AMD documents often have diagrams of which units go with which pipe
21:42:15 <Fiora> like, SIMD-wise, I think on sandy bridge shuffles are p0 or p5, adds/simple arithmetic is p0/p5, bit ops go in all three (p0,p1,p5), multiply is p1, shifts are p1, float arith is p1, float mult is p0...
21:42:33 <Fiora> for some silly historical reason 0, 1, and 5 are the ALU pipes, and 2/3/4 are load/store <.<
21:43:06 <Fiora> it's a big design thing though, I think, like often on a new chip they'll be like "okay, we're going to budget this by having just one shuffle unit, and we're duplicate the float FMA unit, and..."
21:43:53 <Fiora> since "pipes 0 and 5 do shuffles" is kinda the same thing as "there's a shuffle unit stuffed into pipes 0 and 5"
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21:46:49 <elliott> I think we may be attracting people with this topic
21:47:47 <Fiora> (that was sarcasm right? :<)
21:48:03 <kmc> i think elliott was talking about the /topic
21:48:06 <oerjan> Fiora: i think i'm the one who is supposed to be sorry
21:48:07 <elliott> with people randomly joining and leaving
21:48:08 <Vorpal> elliott, we should totally add some bogus nonsense clue to the topic!
21:48:19 <elliott> cpu stuff is interesting!!
21:48:21 <kmc> kernel:[437469.828794] BUG: soft lockup - CPU#0 stuck for 22s! [cc1:4193]
21:48:26 <kmc> i should figure out why this keeps happening
21:48:33 <Fiora> it's interesting but I kill the chat whenever I mention it... ._.
21:48:39 <oerjan> elliott: i've only seen two plausible victims so far
21:48:41 <kmc> i don't think that's really true
21:48:54 <kmc> especially if madbr is around
21:49:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, what are you saying kills the chat?
21:49:18 <kmc> but it's something a lot of us find interesting
21:49:25 <kmc> I want to build a CPU out of relays some day
21:49:29 <kmc> just to see how fucking loud it is
21:49:30 <elliott> Fiora: well I don't really know anything about cpus
21:49:36 <elliott> so I can't really say anything of value while it is going on
21:50:03 <elliott> I mean probably if you didn't talk about it the channel would just be silent, it's not like it's always active
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21:50:20 <kmc> and how much power it draws :)
21:50:21 <Vorpal> kmc, CPU and motherboard issues are always fun
21:50:24 <oerjan> Fiora: as long as no one has actual esolang matters to discuss, your subject cannot possibly be a problem.
21:50:56 <Vorpal> kmc, like I need to reload the emu10k1 driver every now and then in this computer. On my old computer that card worked just fine
21:51:19 <oerjan> kmc: fireworks-based computing
21:51:20 <Vorpal> it says "unhandled interrupt 17, disabling" after a day or so in dmesg
21:51:24 <shachaf> Fiora: Seems more interesting than esolang discussions, anyway.
21:51:31 * shachaf doesn't care about esolangs anymore.
21:52:21 <shachaf> I guess I did at one point.
21:53:40 <Vorpal> shachaf, why are you still here then
21:53:50 <Bike> An ancient curse.
21:54:00 <Bike> binding him to this wretched place
21:54:03 <Fiora> oerjan: it's just not much of a discussion if nobody responds <_>
21:54:19 -!- nooodl_ has set topic: Good job! Level 2 completed. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:54:35 <Bike> a monoscussion
21:55:14 <shachaf> does discussion stand for diagonal scussion
21:55:29 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:57:52 <kmc> diagonalogue
21:58:42 <Fiora> it feels kind of uncomfortable to just talk into the air if you know what I mean
21:59:02 -!- kmc has set topic: Good job! Level 2 completed. | H4sIAIuxWFECAzO2VDA1UDA0V0g2Vki0ULAwUUgDctMUjNNAZIqRgoG5QqohCBkZKqSZcgEACFgDWjAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:59:56 <Vorpal> kmc, what does it decode to
22:00:00 <Bike> probably just a hash of some nonsense
22:00:07 <Vorpal> given the = at the end
22:00:12 <Bike> Fiora: Yeah, but at least know it's interesting to read.
22:00:18 <kmc> it's base64 of gzip of some ascii hex digits that don't mean anything
22:01:13 -!- nooodl_ has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIAIuxWFECAzO2VDA1UDA0V0g2Vki0ULAwUUgDctMUjNNAZIqRgoG5QqohCBkZKqSZcgEACFgDWjAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:01:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:01:35 <Vorpal> just keep the number reasonably low
22:02:10 <Vorpal> kmc, I presume the actual channels are set +s?
22:02:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably know that then
22:02:33 <kmc> when you presume you make a <pre> out of u and me
22:02:51 <Vorpal> kmc, I use markdown instead
22:06:55 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:08:02 -!- bashful has joined.
22:08:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIAJ+zWFEAAzMxNDcwNzKzNEs2MjAxM0sDwmQjQwDmE3ufFgAAAA== | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:08:49 -!- heroux has joined.
22:09:21 <oerjan> i thought a more meaningful clue was in order.
22:10:04 -!- bashful has left ("Leaving").
22:10:30 <oerjan> maybe not the best timing
22:12:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:14:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Good job! Level 7 completed. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:14:58 -!- augur has joined.
22:16:31 <oerjan> (just added spaces between the hex digits)
22:17:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:18:54 <Taneb> I'm installing Trine 2
22:19:55 <zzo38> This server is in a different timezone, but still not April Fool day.
22:20:27 <Taneb> That doesn't change the fact I'm install Trine 2
22:20:42 <oerjan> zzo38: well it is here.
22:21:14 <oerjan> also i think mentioning it counts as a spoiler, not that you were the first.
22:21:44 <oerjan> no, that's every day, elliott. sheesh.
22:22:33 <Bike> Well that means it's this day too.
22:23:17 <kmc> Fiora: so bulldozer has AES-NI?
22:24:44 <Fiora> Yeah, I think so, agner lists the instruction at least
22:24:48 <zzo38> What is your opinions of my changes to Magic: the Gathering?
22:24:55 <Fiora> it has AVX too (but only 128-bit execution units)
22:26:01 <kmc> does that mean that 256-bit instructions have half the throughput?
22:27:39 <Fiora> Yeah, I think so, since it just splits them into two halves
22:27:53 <Fiora> it's the same thing the athlon 64 and core 1 and some other CPUs with 64-bit SSE units used to do
22:28:09 <kmc> wow i didn't know that they had only 64-bit SSE units
22:28:10 -!- iamcal_ has joined.
22:28:22 <kmc> life must be hard for authors of compilers and optimized cores for things
22:28:35 <kmc> you have to know not just what instructions are supported but whether they're actually fast or not
22:28:52 <Fiora> well, its not the end of the world, really? it just means sse won't be faster than mmx in most cases
22:28:55 <Fiora> not that it'll be horridly slow
22:28:57 <kmc> though I imagine one SSE instruction would still be a bit faster than two MMX instructions in many cases
22:29:09 <Fiora> plus you get twice the register room ^^
22:29:45 <Fiora> but performance characteristics can totally vary wildly between CPUs
22:29:48 <zzo38> I would suggest that a function is allowed to have a designation of what it is equivalent to (or is a subset of); this might help a bit, to allow compiler to do such thing if there are instructions for BCD arithmetic, and so on.
22:29:51 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://RetroProgramming.com).
22:30:46 <Fiora> like, if I remember right, the original core 2 had a 64-bit shuffle unit, so SSE shuffles were slower and longer latency
22:31:56 <Fiora> and, so like, an interesting thing about that was
22:32:07 <Fiora> pshufb, which shuffles one register arbitrarily, was 2/2
22:32:17 <Fiora> the punpck instructions, which interleave /two/ registers, were 4/2
22:32:52 <Fiora> so you could see how they had to add more latency because it had to combine two 128-bit registers through a 64-bit unit I think
22:33:15 <Fiora> I have no idea about the actual internals, but, it kind of feels like the numbers say something? <.<
22:33:17 <Vorpal> Fiora, what does it shuffle? bits or bytes?
22:33:51 <Fiora> bytes, I don't think there's any bit shuffle instruction :<
22:33:58 <Vorpal> also I get the feeling they keep adding crazy instructions that very few will use for several years
22:34:13 <Vorpal> it will be years before an instruction that is introduced today is widely used.
22:34:22 <Vorpal> so how is it a selling argument at all
22:34:26 <Vorpal> especially for windows users
22:34:34 <Fiora> I think you kind of have to add them at some point?
22:34:47 <Fiora> and um, why would windows be a problem
22:34:49 <kmc> Vorpal: when they add AES instructions for example, there's only a few crypto libraries on your system (hopefully)
22:34:49 <Vorpal> but they use it as a selling argument a lot of the time it feels like
22:35:16 <Vorpal> Fiora, because end users can't usually recompile the software to take advantage of the new features
22:35:16 <kmc> i think there was a pretty big push by Intel back in the day to get people to use MMX, since it was supposed to be a big thing differentiating them from AMD and Cyrix
22:35:26 <Fiora> but compilers don't use simd instructions anyways really...
22:35:33 <kmc> and most people run binary linux distros
22:35:46 <zzo38> I think they overcomplicated it
22:35:51 <kmc> certainly I would expect high end games to utilize practically every instruction supported by any existing chip
22:35:52 <Vorpal> Fiora, gcc does for float and double on x86-64, but that is it
22:35:53 <zzo38> They even removed some things
22:35:57 <kmc> at least in the era when CPU performance ruled
22:36:17 <zzo38> Such as BCD arithmetic is not use in 64-bits mode; and I would use that more.
22:36:19 <Fiora> I don't think autovectorization is limited to floating point but...
22:36:35 <Vorpal> Fiora, but that doesn't happen to such a large degree
22:36:41 <Fiora> do you mean like, where they use SSE for scalar math (instead of x87)?
22:36:41 <kmc> well SSE is also the standard FPU on x86_64, even if it's not autovectorized
22:36:47 <zzo38> I also don't want to use something that is only Intel or only AMD since it is better using the instruction compatible with all of them, instead.
22:36:52 <Fiora> that's kind of different though, that's scalar stuff
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22:37:09 <Vorpal> Fiora, it is still the most widespread use of the SSE registers
22:37:37 <Vorpal> because auto-vectorization doesn't happen all that much on most code I turned on the debug output on it for
22:38:11 <Vorpal> that was a couple of years ago though
22:38:16 <Vorpal> so things could have changed
22:38:58 -!- heroux has joined.
22:39:45 <Vorpal> whatever happened to 3DNow btw?
22:40:22 <Fiora> I think it was largely obsoleted by SSE
22:40:31 <Fiora> I heard it was useful at the time, since there was no simd float stuff
22:40:49 <Fiora> it also added 'pavgusb' before intel added 'pavgb' in iSSE apparently
22:42:13 <Vorpal> also what does 'pavgb' do
22:43:30 <Fiora> iSSE is I think a term for the integer instructions added in SSE (which were actually for MMX registers)
22:44:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, didn't 3DNow or the extended version of it have instructions for matrix multiplication too?
22:44:10 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:45:01 <Fiora> I don't know, I've literally never used it >_<
22:46:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, why do you code asm anyway?
22:46:08 -!- heroux has joined.
22:46:16 <kmc> intel should send you a merit badge if you manage to use every instruction in one program
22:48:17 <Fiora> umm because it's (part of) my job and because it's really fun
22:48:20 <Sgeo> I've asked this before, but don't remember any answer.
22:48:27 <Sgeo> Is learning ASM the best way to learn about CPUs?
22:48:37 <Fiora> kmc: there is like, this amazing feeling of satisfaction when I find a way to use a seemingly useless, pointless instruction
22:48:52 <kmc> Sgeo: that depends what you mean by "learn about CPUs"
22:48:55 <Fiora> I am like "yeeeeesssss I found a way to use this useless thing"
22:49:09 <kmc> it won't teach you that much about how CPUs are implemented internally, although it's a necessary prerequisite
22:49:09 <Koen_> I seem to recall someone stating that asm was following old CPUs' logic, and wasn't close to modern CPUs?
22:49:31 <kmc> Sgeo: I really strongly recommend MIT's course 6.004, in which you design a simple RISC CPU at the logic gate level, as well as write some programs for it
22:49:42 <kmc> you can find the materials online
22:49:51 <kmc> including the simulator program which is really fun to play with
22:50:02 <Sgeo> kmc, that's on OpenCourseWare?
22:50:12 <kmc> i don't know if the bit on OCW specifically is the useful bit
22:50:17 <kmc> just google mit 6.004
22:50:25 <Fiora> yeah, for learning how CPUs actually work an architecture course that covers something like the classic risc pipeline and stuf fmight be a better start
22:50:35 <Vorpal> <Fiora> umm because it's (part of) my job and because it's really fun <-- what is your job?
22:51:08 <kmc> Sgeo: http://6004.mit.edu/
22:51:38 <elliott> fiora's job is teaching #esoteric
22:51:41 <kmc> i think OCW has kind of "packaged" versions of courses, that are often a few years old, but you can also just find the website that the current students use, and it's usually accessible
22:51:45 <Fiora> I am not a good teacher ._.
22:51:57 <Bike> you're not well paid for your job, though, so it works out.
22:52:29 <kmc> Koen_: yeah I would agree with that. certainly the instruction set is just another abstract language and doesn't correspond directly to what's happening at the physical level
22:52:31 <Bike> (your #esoteric job i mean, not that "side thing" you do "in the real world")
22:52:39 <Fiora> Vorpal: um, if you're asking like "why asm", that's kind of the only real way to write SIMD code, so...
22:52:46 <Bike> (in which i assume you make loadsamoney)
22:52:51 <kmc> it hides details like caching, virtual memory, out of order execution, register renaming, branch prediction, etc.
22:52:56 <fizzie> There was that one computing course with a "from X to Y"-style name that went from reasonably low to reasonably high. Or maybe it's just that?
22:53:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, I'm asking "why manual SIMD writing"
22:53:22 <kmc> Koen_: some CPUs like the Transmeta Crusoe actually compile the machine code to a totally different internal architecture before executing it
22:53:48 <kmc> people use that as an analogy for current Intel / AMD processors as well
22:53:51 <Vorpal> Fiora, are you implementing codecs? Compilers?
22:53:58 <Koen_> do some people program directly in that totally different internal architecture?
22:53:59 <Bike> did anyone ever use crusoe
22:54:00 <Vorpal> Fiora, that is the level I'm curious on
22:54:06 <kmc> and while it's not really accurate, it's less likely to lead you astray than pretending that each instruction is executed directly on some hardware
22:54:13 <kmc> Koen_: Transmeta engineers did
22:54:21 <kmc> they never released the specs but it's been reverse engineered to some degree
22:54:27 * Fiora will decline to answer that question <.<
22:54:28 <Bike> errrr wrong question
22:55:06 <elliott> Fiora works at Transmeta. this is because Fiora is literally past Linus Torvalds.
22:55:34 <Bike> torvalds is surprisingly into touhou
22:55:41 <kmc> Bike: i brought it up in another channel and a few people said they'd owned machines with crusoe processors
22:56:04 <Bike> really, huh. i thought it never got used much, i never would have heard of it if not for linux
22:56:25 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe#Products
22:56:48 <kmc> oh the OQO used it
22:56:51 <kmc> i wonder if those are cheap yet
22:56:58 <kmc> they're kind of cute
22:57:20 <kmc> to the ebay
22:58:21 <Bike> the hell, a tablet in 1990
22:58:21 <kmc> looks like so :)
22:58:46 <kmc> contrary to popular belief, Apple did not invent the idea of a smartphone or a tablet
22:59:01 * Bike read an entire book on the PARC laptop once, thankyouverymuch
22:59:36 * kmc owned a Windows smartphone in 2006... it was painfully bad
23:00:16 <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone wasn't apps (took them a year to add that) or good data connectivity (same) but just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:00:43 <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well
23:00:58 <Vorpal> by a web browser that wasn't awful?
23:01:02 <kmc> at the time the iPhone came out, i had a Nokia N800
23:01:11 <Bike> yes. the left SRs browser was a notoriously awful netscape sclone
23:01:13 <kmc> which also had a browser approaching non-awful
23:01:18 <kmc> but wasn't a phone
23:01:41 <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:02:04 <Vorpal> Bike, this is so going into the quotes list
23:02:23 <Vorpal> if only I remembered the command
23:02:40 <kmc> i'll do it
23:02:52 <Bike> btw did you know some of the bolshevik newspapers were crazy
23:02:55 <Bike> "Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible."
23:03:00 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:04 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:06 <kmc> didn't mean to
23:03:08 <kmc> `delquote 1003
23:03:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful
23:03:29 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:32 <Vorpal> Bike, I like to think you remember that off the top of your head
23:03:33 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:39 <kmc> hm do I fix my own space-typo
23:03:41 <kmc> `delquote 1003
23:03:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:03:50 <Bike> Vorpal: i also have rosseau's speeches memorized
23:03:57 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:04:00 <HackEgo> 1003) <kmc> the innovation of the iPhone was... just that it had a web browser that wasn't awful <Bike> i believe that's how the bolsheviks took over russia as well <Bike> the kulaks mainly stuck with IE and so were rightfully put to death by the cheka
23:04:06 <Vorpal> Bike, I'm not even sure I remember who that is
23:04:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:27 <Bike> I meant Robespierre.
23:04:47 <Vorpal> is that true? That you have them memorized?
23:04:53 <kmc> how did lenin die anyway
23:05:14 <kmc> "When already sick, Lenin remembered that, since 1917, he had only rested twice"
23:05:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:05:23 <Bike> He ot partly assassinated like a dozen times and then got sick, I think.
23:05:38 <kmc> he had like 3 strokes and maybe syphillis
23:05:43 <elliott> like his ears got assassinated
23:05:57 <Bike> elliott: yeah, his jaw got fucked up and such
23:06:23 <elliott> then they assassinated... his MIND
23:06:33 <kmc> elliott: your mind is the scene of the crime
23:07:03 <Bike> elliott: p. sure that's what some orthodox marxists actually believe
23:07:34 <Bike> ironically marxism doesn't form a basis unless you include... i don't know where i'm going here
23:08:00 <kmc> i ate a super greasy meal and now there is grease all over my hands and computers #fail
23:08:06 <shachaf> do marxists believe in the axiom of choice
23:08:50 <Bike> no because the space of capitalism doesn't form a basis, or something
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23:10:12 -!- augur has joined.
23:10:13 <shachaf> oh no kmc has been overcome with the twitter
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23:12:43 <shachaf> why don't people wave their hats anymore
23:12:48 <shachaf> why don't people wear hats anymore
23:12:51 <Bike> http://www.cofault.com/2010/01/hunt-for-addictive-monster.html oh, axiom of choice
23:13:01 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
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23:13:19 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
23:13:37 <shachaf> lambdabot: No, that's your mind.
23:13:44 <shachaf> And electro-shock means "the time we lost all the quotes" hth.
23:13:47 -!- Vacation9 has joined.
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23:15:03 <shachaf> Bike: do you know the puzzle with the two periodic functions whose sum is the identity function
23:15:11 <Bike> I've heard of it.
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23:17:15 <nooodl_> f(x) = sin(x), g(x) = 1-sin(x)
23:18:04 <shachaf> that's not very the identity
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23:18:35 <elliott> i like how people seriously think this is the channel
23:18:37 <Bike> x-sin and sin. but I remember the puzzle being more interesting. I think one of the periods was in a different direction?
23:19:01 <shachaf> elliott: "this is the channel"?
23:19:01 <Bike> wait. these people actually think this is... wow.
23:19:03 <elliott> guys I'm pretty sure freenode knows better than to let the channels show up in /list.
23:19:08 <shachaf> Bike: x-sin(x) isn't periodic
23:19:09 <Bike> shachaf: for the freenode thing
23:19:25 <Bike> And oh yeah, it's not.
23:19:37 <oerjan> <shachaf> why don't people wear hats anymore <-- http://choosemyhat.com/
23:19:57 <Bike> These are gonna be some wacky functions aren't they
23:20:07 <Sgeo> choose my hat, choose my hat, ... wow I fail at songs
23:20:23 <Bike> You figured it out.
23:20:28 <nooodl_> urgh how is this even possible,
23:20:49 <Bike> If it's periodic it can't be increasing, can it...? hm
23:20:59 <nooodl_> if f has period m, and g has period n, then f+g has period mn, doesn't it
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23:21:14 <Bike> This is the next step of the puzzle fwilson|solving. You need to help us with this, and we'll tell you which channel is next.
23:21:25 <Bike> NOW YOU'LL NEVER FIND THE TREASURE
23:21:29 <Sgeo> Gregor, you look like someone I know IRL
23:21:37 <shachaf> well they're ot going to be continuous functions
23:21:54 <elliott> all functions are continuous
23:22:02 <Bike> Go back to your hole, elliott.
23:22:21 <shachaf> elliott: That's a constructivist sort of thing to say... But you don't seem very constructive to me!
23:22:29 <shachaf> (the joke is that you're not helping)
23:22:30 <Bike> Hm, maybe if one of the functions takes on all values within an interval
23:22:33 * elliott waves a little sign saying "EXCLUDE THE MIDDLE"
23:22:41 <Bike> the monster function took on all values within /any/ interval but that's probably not necessary
23:22:44 <elliott> don't not include the middle.
23:22:44 <Bike> elliott: TRAITOR
23:23:35 <elliott> guys what stupid thing should i do to the wiki for stupid day
23:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, you could surprise everyone by NOT doing anything
23:24:11 <elliott> that is what I do every day of the year
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23:24:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it is surprising on the stupid day though
23:24:41 <elliott> unfortunately the ideal april fools requires me to code PHP and is now over a year late
23:24:54 <nooodl_> body { -webkit-transform: rotate(0.2deg); }
23:24:58 <Vorpal> oh? what would that have been?
23:25:11 <elliott> nooodl_: I already flipped the wiki layout (but not the text) last april 1
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23:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's secret, obviously
23:25:16 <Vorpal> elliott, you could make it play nyancat automatically in the background
23:25:24 <elliott> but if anyone really wants to know then /msg me
23:25:40 <elliott> well I'll just feature deadfish for a start.
23:25:54 -!- _Paul has joined.
23:26:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I messaged you as you said
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23:26:51 <oerjan> <nooodl_> if f has period m, and g has period n, then f+g has period mn, doesn't it <-- not unless m and n are integers, in which case lcm(m,n) also works. in fact i'm pretty sure this puzzle requires there to be no common period, i.e. m/n irrational.
23:27:18 <elliott> Ojel: _Paul: conehead: I suspect you all of being terrible at puzzles
23:28:07 <shachaf> body { text-transform: capitalize; }
23:28:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean what I think you mean?
23:28:21 <Bike> Alright y'all, ready for the next stage of the puzzle?
23:28:26 <conehead> Probably going to stay here though; didn't realize there was a channel for esoteric langs
23:28:26 <Ojel> stuck on The main character, a kid, in this classic music video was mocked for being ‘this’. | Hint: s/classic/old/ | The this in quotes is the answer we are looking for. | The answer is not in the lyrics of the song.]
23:28:33 <Bike> It's easy. Just name a pair of periodic functions that sum to the identity function.
23:28:41 <Bike> So easy. Here's a hint: monoids.
23:28:52 <Vorpal> Bike, oh yeah, of course
23:28:58 <Vorpal> why didn't I think of that
23:29:29 <Bike> The periods will probably be incommenurable, like oerjan said.
23:29:42 -!- Ojel has left.
23:29:43 <shachaf> maybe i should mislead you all a bit
23:29:51 <shachaf> throw in a few red herrings
23:30:01 -!- _Paul has left ("leaving").
23:30:06 <Bike> Ojel's too chicken to continue the puzzle.
23:30:09 <Bike> It's up to you, conehead.
23:32:43 <conehead> brb getting to that haskell section on monoids to solve your fake hint
23:33:15 <fizzie> How on earth do people even end up on #esoteric on the first place? (Some spamming on the actual puzzle channels?)
23:33:17 <Vorpal> conehead, oh, you realized we were trolling ;P
23:33:41 <fizzie> I guess it could be just a /list.
23:33:52 <fizzie> Not that I suppose any of the others are non-+s.
23:33:53 <conehead> I'm not sure how Ojel got to this channel; I'll ask him
23:34:06 <Vorpal> conehead, the real hint is in the topic
23:34:14 <Vorpal> see that random-looking string? yeah
23:34:37 <conehead> Oh, so this is part of a legitimate track?
23:34:48 <shachaf> you can see oerjan's handiwork
23:34:50 <Vorpal> conehead, but it is fun trolling people
23:35:00 <elliott> oerjan: kick Vorpal for lying
23:35:03 <shachaf> ignore both elliott and Vorpal
23:35:18 <shachaf> (this has nothing to do with the puzzle -- it'll just make your life better)
23:35:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is actually true
23:35:46 <Vorpal> shachaf, in fact, ignoring most people will make your life better
23:36:11 <shachaf> What about ignoring ddarius? That'll make your life worse.
23:36:25 <Vorpal> shachaf, who on earth is that?
23:36:46 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can't. You said I should ignore him
23:36:53 <Vorpal> now you are contracting yourself
23:37:25 <Vorpal> well I better ignore that advice too then
23:37:26 <shachaf> Also I said it while not capitaliszing my sentence.
23:37:33 <shachaf> Which means I didn't mean it.
23:37:43 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh I didn't know that rule
23:38:03 <Vorpal> shachaf, "<shachaf> You should ignore me too." you did capitalize though
23:38:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so does that mean you did mean it?
23:38:56 <Vorpal> shachaf, I do use xchat yes, why?
23:39:06 <shachaf> Because you say "NICK, " instead of "NICK: "
23:39:16 <shachaf> You should switch it to "NICK: ". There's a configuration option somewhere.
23:39:23 <fizzie> I used to prefix "nick;", what does that make me?
23:39:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what software had that as a default?
23:40:00 <Vorpal> or did you just do it because why not
23:40:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly none. Possibly some ircII script. Possibly I was doing it manually. Not entirely certain.
23:40:26 <Vorpal> argh, my compose key is broken
23:40:37 <fizzie> It's just a /set completion_char ; away from irssi, though.
23:40:55 <elliott> happy new featured language day
23:41:01 <Vorpal> shachaf# is this better?
23:41:31 <fizzie> elliott: It'd not a brainfuck derivative. I herd a rumur it was gunna. :/
23:41:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so there is the surprise of the day for you
23:41:50 <elliott> fizzie: I think you'll find it's better
23:42:38 <fizzie> Well, I mean, it's fishy.
23:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, *why* is there an xkcd variant of deadfish listed
23:43:20 <Vorpal> when did that happen in xkcd
23:47:08 <elliott> nooodl_: btw that -webkit-transform doesn't work
23:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, no, it's the other way around. For æsthetic reasons the xkcd variant, with the different letters, was created; then retroactively the comic was named after it.
23:47:35 <elliott> oh maybe that's just mediawiki
23:52:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> "AAAAA=" <-- i did _not_ put that in on purpose mind you
23:53:43 <Vorpal> conehead, you should totally decode the hint in our topic though
23:55:08 <conehead> Not sure what to make of it (assuming it is actually decodable)
23:55:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, *why* is there an xkcd variant of deadfish listed <-- i think that was just someone trolling us, but zzo38 later gave that variant a purpose in life
23:55:18 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:55:52 <Vorpal> conehead, it is decodable, just useless to you to decode. I managed it straight away when someone put it in the topic though
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23:58:06 <oerjan> well it's trivial as long as you recognize each encoding in the path
23:58:29 <nooga> FireFly: what's #elliottcable about?
23:58:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Fortunately, you can just use magic.
23:59:14 <oerjan> fizzie: ...there's a program for it?
23:59:26 <oerjan> well file might i guess
23:59:31 <nooga> elliott: about elliott ?