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00:01:38 <Bike> this vacation9 person, seems to have a lot of trouble
00:01:52 <oerjan> elliott: well file doesn't recognize the first encoding as anything other than ASCII text
00:01:58 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:03:16 <fizzie> That's something anyone doing this kind of stupid-day puzzle does, though.
00:03:52 <oerjan> well in that case they'll do all the rest too :P
00:04:26 -!- carado_ has joined.
00:04:32 <oerjan> or wait was that to Bike
00:04:54 <nooga> oh, Sgeo is also there
00:04:54 <fizzie> I don't think people in general eyeball the second one, though. Maybe.
00:05:10 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it was to you.
00:05:41 <fizzie> Having done a bit of the official one, I can't really be criticizing anyone else for wasting their time.
00:06:17 <Sgeo> nooga, elliottcable invited me there after I ranted a bit about node.js in the node.js channel
00:06:29 <oerjan> Bike: shachaf: i'm pretty sure that periodic function stuff is trivial if you can use the axiom of choice (and thus get a basis for the reals as a rational vector space), but is that intended?
00:06:44 <Bike> oerjan: given the context, probably.
00:07:03 <nooga> Sgeo: oh, I didn't know you're into node
00:07:16 <Sgeo> I'm not into node
00:07:36 <nooga> then what were you doing in the #node.js?
00:08:53 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:09:01 <Sgeo> Complaining about node
00:09:02 <fizzie> Hey, what am I doing on #esoteric? Are people going to think I'm... into it?
00:10:10 <oerjan> fizzie: they might start thinking you do wacky things such as programming befunge
00:10:45 <fizzie> 7part #esoteric OH NOOOOO
00:11:50 <oerjan> also it is trivial that the two functions cannot be continuous, since then they would be bounded.
00:12:03 <shachaf> Sgeo: Did you seriously join #node.js to talk about how node.js is bad?
00:12:28 <shachaf> When people do that in #haskell, we usually consider them annoying trolls.
00:13:19 <oerjan> surely there is #haskell-flames for that.
00:13:28 <ion> Hi all. Esoteric programming languages are bad.
00:13:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:13:47 -!- oerjan has kicked ion Fuck off and die.
00:13:52 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:14:03 <nooga> ion was kicked from #esoteric by oerjan [Fuck off and die]
00:14:23 <nooga> oerjan actually typed the F word
00:14:30 <fizzie> Good to see someone showing those uppity trolls who's the boss.
00:14:46 -!- ion has joined.
00:15:01 <oerjan> nooga: i'm sure it's happened before
00:15:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31028
00:16:19 <shachaf> imo oerjan is abusing his op powers
00:17:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely recall you were being quite annoying.
00:18:22 <oerjan> although possibly by accident.
00:19:26 -!- nooga has changed nick to Meldo.
00:19:32 -!- Meldo has changed nick to nooga.
00:19:38 <oerjan> ...now i remember. maybe i should kick you again.
00:25:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Why do you hate dahl.net so much?
00:25:21 <ion> http://overviewer.org/
00:26:17 <oerjan> shachaf: because it doesn't exist.
00:26:30 <fizzie> A kihck graph is formed by taking all the maximal kihcks (people who've each kihcked each other) on the original channel, and adding an edge if the "F word" was used in a cross-maximal-kihck kihck event.
00:29:27 <fizzie> (Is there a sort of a clihque for directed graphs?)
00:30:31 <oerjan> probably several kinds
00:31:54 <fizzie> Assuming the kind where directions are removed and multiple edges collapsed, are there maximal kihcks on #esoteric larger than two?
00:32:33 <fizzie> That's the kind of question I'd like to ask W|A but I think they still haven't "curated" data about #esoteric.
00:33:11 <nooga> let's code some node
00:33:56 <fizzie> "Meep meep", isn't it?
00:34:01 * Sgeo suddenly remembers that Bike wants to see a video of him typing.
00:34:36 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure you are the most qualified person to collect and visualize the data hth
00:34:52 <Bike> Oh right, because you don't touch type.
00:35:35 <oerjan> fizzie: wikipedia seems to insist on beep
00:35:41 <fizzie> oerjan: It's like 3:35am and I was just going to sleep, and then you say something like that. "H", indeed.
00:36:22 <fizzie> I seem to have been wrong on the meeps too.
00:36:39 <oerjan> also http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070608064934AAlD3Rb
00:38:10 <oerjan> (warning: that was about as depressing as you'd expect)
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01:07:41 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-kick.png well now THAT was quite something.
01:08:12 <Bike> elliott's been very bad.
01:08:38 <Bike> youguysaremean / IWontSayAWord / pleasehearmeout <-- omg
01:08:43 <fizzie> The line thickness is from the count.
01:08:47 <elliott> fizzie: can you... make this vertical instead
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01:09:03 <fizzie> elliott: Possibly with a rankdir=LR.
01:09:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-kick2.png same thing the other way around.
01:10:45 <fizzie> As far as graphs go, it's remarkably bipartite.
01:10:54 <fizzie> With the self-edges being the only exceptions.
01:11:02 <elliott> fizzie: you should op me so i can add some data to it.
01:11:06 <elliott> I bet Bike wants to be kicked for science.
01:11:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see tusho and lament kicked each other. i think.
01:11:55 <fizzie> oerjan: As did you and elliott, somehow.
01:12:14 <oerjan> oh. that wasn't visible.
01:12:26 <fizzie> It's more visible in the vertical version.
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01:12:30 <fizzie> Since it's bipartite, it also means my original question about maximal kihcks of size greater than two probably has a negative answer.
01:12:53 <elliott> anyway c'mon. opping me so i can kick people for fun is practically a tradition by now.
01:13:17 <fizzie> Nooo, I'll go a sleep now byebye ->
01:13:28 <elliott> ok i guess oerjan has to do it then
01:15:27 <oerjan> fizzie: you are _quite_ a lazy op hth
01:17:01 <elliott> it's awful. i'll kick him for it
01:20:15 <elliott> oerjan: wow I feature deadfish and don't even get anything in return!
01:20:20 <kmc> `run dmesg | paste
01:20:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13850
01:20:51 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:20:55 <HackEgo> ubda: unknown partition table \ console [mc-1] enabled \ Initializing software serial port version 1 \ console [tty0] enabled \ Console initialized on /dev/tty0 \ Initialized stdio console driver \ sit: IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver \ NET: Registered protocol family 10 \ TCP: cubic registered \ loop: module loaded \ brd: module loaded \ io sc
01:21:54 <oerjan> is tusho elliott or tswett, i always confuse it with kerlo
01:22:06 <Fiora> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ oh geez
01:22:48 <elliott> wow it actually has sample code
01:23:24 <elliott> yay the readme links to our wiki
01:24:29 <Fiora> (I finally found a relevant link for like once in forever)
01:25:40 <elliott> more often than most of us manage
01:26:58 <elliott> oerjan: http://ro-che.info/articles/2013-03-31-flavours-of-free-applicative-functors.html
01:27:02 <elliott> oerjan: congratulations on being /r/haskell famous
01:27:09 <elliott> albeit with a low-fidelity rendering of your name
01:28:10 <Sgeo> I hit 110 pounds!
01:28:28 <kmc> how tall are you Sgeo?
01:29:01 <Sgeo> 5'2" (around there, maybe a bit taller, I forget, 5'2" to 5'4" or so)
01:29:35 <pikhq> Jesus you're short.
01:29:38 <oerjan> elliott: argh i think he missed half the point, which was that my implementation doesn't use Functor f...
01:29:46 <elliott> oerjan: the functor f thing is mentioned later.
01:29:59 <elliott> oerjan: then he says you're a cannon!
01:33:18 <kmc> `run ls -l /dev/ubd*
01:33:20 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /dev/ubd*: No such file or directory
01:34:02 <kmc> `paste < /tmp/16551.conf
01:34:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/%3C%20/tmp/16551.conf
01:34:19 <kmc> `run paste < /tmp/16551.conf
01:34:21 <HackEgo> bash: /tmp/16551.conf: No such file or directory
01:35:04 <Fiora> 5'2" isn't that short!
01:36:03 <Sgeo> Pretty much everyone else I know who is this short is female
01:36:38 <Sgeo> I don't entirely understand why so many women are short compared to men
01:36:39 <Fiora> I guess that's true, the average for guys is like 5'9" or something
01:36:50 <Fiora> I think it's just sexual dimorphism?
01:37:22 <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:39:22 <elliott> Bike: aren't you already a horrid fleshbeast
01:40:04 <Bike> Well I mean moreso.
01:40:07 <Bike> Since I'd be a sexual one.
01:40:33 <kmc> a terrified, asexual forcemeat
01:40:44 <Gregor> `addquote <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:40:47 <HackEgo> 1004) <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:41:04 <kmc> sexual animorphism
01:41:24 <Gregor> <pikhq> Jesus you're short. // actually, given the change of humans' height over time, yeah, he's probably about as tall as Jesus was.
01:41:47 <Fiora> wait who's the asexual fleshbeat
01:42:15 <elliott> truly, aren't we all asexual fleshbeasts.
01:44:47 <oerjan> elliott: he actually asked me in a message if i wanted to give my real name for attribution, but i haven't got around to visiting reddit properly yet today
01:44:58 <pikhq> Afraid I'm a sexual fleshbeast.
01:45:09 <oerjan> so i just saw it when clicking on the link back from the blog post to reddit
01:47:13 <kmc> a porn version of the animorphs
01:48:09 <Jafet> Sexual polymorphism
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02:00:05 <oerjan> i feel i've seen better wikipedia front pages for this date than this.
02:01:20 <kmc> WE ARE NOT AMUSED
02:02:38 <oerjan> yeah that was the worst
02:03:25 <oerjan> today's picture was the best i think
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02:03:52 <shachaf> wikipedia has a front page?
02:04:12 <shachaf> the front page is /wiki/Special:Search?search=, right?
02:04:20 <oerjan> and the rest was trying to stretch things too far to try and be humorous
02:06:11 <shachaf> oerjan: imo that works better with rwbarton
02:21:22 <tswett> oerjan: tusho is elliott.
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02:22:18 <elliott> Bike: looks like we need more clues.
02:22:38 <nooodl_> help how do i write \mathcal letters on paper
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02:26:14 <oerjan> nooodl_: pretend you're 19th century european royalty.
02:26:29 <nooodl_> haha that's actually pretty much what i'm doing
02:26:36 <nooodl_> they're so swooshy and unreadable... god
02:27:00 <nooodl_> i'll just write a bunch of As Bs and Cs and hope i never have to deal with anything beyond that
02:27:18 <Bike> alex_joni: What's a function that's continuous almost everywhere but differentiable nowhere?
02:28:16 <oerjan> indeed, drop the almost.
02:28:25 <shachaf> Maybe Bike is thinking of a different function.
02:28:35 <HackEgo> alex_joni: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:30:42 <kmc> how do i keep misplacing all of my virtual machines
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02:31:36 <Bike> everyone i love dies :(
02:32:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Bike loves everyone
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02:39:50 <Koen_> Bike: alex_joni: What's a function that's continuous almost everywhere but differentiable nowhere?
02:40:33 * Koen_ in Koen's world, all sets are discrete
02:41:09 <Bike> Isn't it the same in elliott's world.
02:41:15 <kmc> isn't there one that's like... f(p/q) = 1/q, f(x) = 0 for p,q integers, x irrational
02:41:24 <Bike> weierstrass's is the "canonical" one
02:41:32 <shachaf> i think elliott believes in differentiable functions
02:42:31 <kmc> fractalicious
02:42:46 <kmc> while we're talking about weird functions, i like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_base_13_function
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02:43:44 <Bike> My favorite conway thing is probably that huge-ass polynomial.
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02:44:13 <Bike> the one for look-and-say.
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02:50:07 <kmc> i haven't sen
02:50:36 <kmc> that polynomial
02:50:38 <tswett> Conway's huge polynomial? Hereabouts it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence
02:50:52 <Bike> Yeah, it's in there, like degree 70-something
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02:52:39 <Koen_> kmc: how is that continuous?
02:52:55 <Koen_> you're jumping from 1/q to 0
02:53:38 <kmc> Koen_: as you get closer to an irrational number by rational approximations, the denominator gets bigger and bigger
02:54:24 <Bike> I bet you can't find a rational that's right next to an irrational.
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02:56:12 <shachaf> help what's a right next to
02:56:42 <Koen_> I think the usual term is equality
02:57:29 <Bike> shachaf: Right.
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02:59:31 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:59:58 <tswett> Oh boy. Conway's base 13 function takes on the value of every real number, in every open interval?
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03:00:04 <shachaf> wait that wasn't even my @message
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03:00:40 <Bike> oh, that's a good property.
03:00:41 <Koen_> doesn't identity do that already?
03:00:41 <tswett> I want to have a lambdabot message.
03:01:07 <oerjan> @tell tswett Not a chance
03:01:22 <shachaf> hey oerjan this article talks about someone who shares your first name
03:01:45 <oerjan> shachaf: infinitesimal
03:03:28 <shachaf> I regard Oerjan’s version as the principal one. It is simple, powerful (doesn’t require f to be a functor) and straightforward (doesn’t change the arguments order).
03:03:46 <shachaf> "doesn’t require f to be a functor"?
03:03:46 <tswett> So what's the best function that takes on every value on every interval?
03:03:46 <lambdabot> tswett: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:04:00 <tswett> *gasp* I have a message? :Ö:
03:04:15 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3m 8s ago: Not a chance
03:04:42 <tswett> I'm so happy. :')))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
03:05:07 <oerjan> tswett: that base 13 function does look pretty good
03:06:01 <oerjan> shachaf: nope, it doesn't
03:06:21 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:06:35 <shachaf> oerjan: What about all these "Functor f =>" constraints?
03:06:55 <oerjan> shachaf: completely redundant
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03:07:11 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not sure what it means for it to be a "free applicative" if there's no functor.
03:07:47 <oerjan> shachaf: the applicative itself is a functor. it just doesn't use any underlying one.
03:08:12 <shachaf> So what is it a "free applicative" of?
03:08:23 <shachaf> Well... In what sense is it "free"?
03:08:30 <oerjan> of a * -> * kind data constructor
03:08:45 <shachaf> what does "free" even mean help
03:09:27 <oerjan> well usually it's about having the right universal property
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03:10:06 <shachaf> i thought "free" meant "left adjoint to a forgetful functor" or something
03:10:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that "lower" function should probably be the corresponding forgetful functor
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03:18:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Can you explain the thing with the free F-Alg monad?
03:19:54 <oerjan> i haven't been following those posts
03:20:27 <shachaf> This is unrelated to ro-che.
03:21:14 <oerjan> well i vaguely recall seeing reddit posts mentioning F-algebras
03:21:41 <shachaf> WELL I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE REDDIT POSTS
03:21:50 <shachaf> (unless i actually am talking about them)
03:22:11 <oerjan> well i'm pointing out i haven't learned anything about F-algebras
03:22:43 <oerjan> i may have had my eyes glaze over over some of those posts, that's all
03:26:03 <shachaf> I guess copumpkin will have to explain it.
03:28:12 <oerjan> copumpkin: i categorically refused to answer, so you will have to answer categorically.
03:37:01 <shachaf> Has Google Maps had this "Treasure" mode for a while or is it an April thing?
03:43:31 <Sgeo> huh, seems like quite a bit of effort to do, I think?
03:43:40 <Sgeo> I don't know, I don't know how image processing works
03:44:13 <Sgeo> Hmm, probably not
03:45:38 <elliott> are you saying humans have developed the technology to "draw" "maps"
03:47:27 <kmc> they use wood and arrows
03:49:06 <oerjan> elliott: sheesh elliott, humans made maps even in the middle age. it just took them most of their life to complete one.
03:49:26 <elliott> oerjan: ummm they didn't have image processing technology in the middle ages
03:50:44 <oerjan> elliott: that's why it took so long to make, duh
03:50:56 <oerjan> they had to do it without processing.
03:50:59 * Sgeo was thinking at first that Google was taking the rendered map image and converting it to treasure, but presumably Google actually has map data which makes more sense
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04:01:35 <Jafet> They didn't even have aircraft back then; how could they have had maps?
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04:29:59 <Bike> That's pretty boring.
04:31:07 <copumpkin> F-algebra is an object x of C and a morphism from F x -> x
04:31:33 <elliott> why do you need an endofunctor?
04:31:34 <shachaf> Why do free F-algebras give you free monads?
04:32:00 <shachaf> copumpkin: It could be a contravariant functor!
04:32:20 <Bike> sathiyac2: Try unzipping it.
04:32:24 <copumpkin> shachaf: it could be, not sure what would happen to the category construction then
04:32:43 <shachaf> Anyway this is apparently very related to free monads.
04:32:50 <copumpkin> shachaf: not sure about a free f-algebra
04:33:04 <copumpkin> you know how you get data out of initial f-algebras though?
04:33:23 <copumpkin> initial and free are kinda similar
04:33:37 <copumpkin> or how one is justified by the other
04:34:29 <shachaf> That's related to foldr with (:) and [], I guess?
04:34:55 <sathiyac2> can u plz tell me . . wat is f-algebra ?
04:34:56 <copumpkin> which are just defining characteristics of data
04:35:12 <elliott> sathiyac2: 05:30:46 <copumpkin> take an endofunctor F
04:35:13 <elliott> 05:30:53 <copumpkin> on category C
04:35:13 <elliott> 05:31:07 <copumpkin> F-algebra is an object x of C and a morphism from F x -> x
04:35:13 <shachaf> But I'm not sure what you mean in particular.
04:35:15 <copumpkin> anyway, it turns out that f-algebras can be made into a category
04:35:27 <copumpkin> so for a particular F, you can construct its category of F-algebras
04:35:45 <copumpkin> where the algebras are objects, and the morphisms are still pretty simple
04:37:06 <copumpkin> so basically I said that an f-algebra is an object of C and a morphism in it. To look at the moprhism between two f-algebras, just take a moprhism between their two objects, such that a fairly obvious law is satisfied
04:37:28 <copumpkin> so anyway, now you have this category of f-algebras
04:37:41 <copumpkin> if you look at the initial obejcts in that category, you'll find you can prove a remarkable property about them
04:39:07 <shachaf> The morphism part of every initial F-algebra has an inverse?
04:39:47 <copumpkin> but the more interesting part is that the object part X of that initial algebra is isomorphic to F X
04:40:20 <copumpkin> which is basically a roundabout way to get a fixed point
04:40:47 <shachaf> Well, that's the same thing, isn't it? If f : F X -> X has an inverse then X ~= F X?
04:41:25 <copumpkin> I just think phrasing it as a fixed point is more revealing
04:41:41 <copumpkin> when we're used to writing data ListF a r = …; Mu (ListF a)
04:42:46 <copumpkin> the same argument works for terminal coalgebras of course
04:43:38 <copumpkin> oh shit, the fake announcements have already started popping up
04:44:13 <shachaf> So the free monad thing is related, I think.
04:44:36 <shachaf> For the left adjoint to the forgetful functor : F-Alg(C) -> C
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04:46:30 <shachaf> That works out to be the same as the free monad?
04:48:42 <shachaf> what is this "work" thing..........
04:49:03 <shachaf> Now I know a bit about Lambek's Lemma and Colambek's Colemma.
04:49:15 <copumpkin> can't stay up all night doing CT, you know
05:03:11 <kmc> what is lmgtfy
05:04:23 <HackEgo> sathiyac2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:25:55 <shachaf> copumpkin: class Algebra a where algebra :: F a -> a
05:26:17 <shachaf> newtype Foo a = Foo { runFoo :: forall r. Algebra r => (a -> r) -> r }
05:27:25 <Bike> no restriction on F?
05:27:49 <shachaf> You can tell because it's uppercase.
05:28:53 <shachaf> With MPTCs you can say class Algebra f a where ...
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05:37:12 <btiffin> Has anyone tried CB Slang syntax?
05:37:50 <Bike> like cb radio?
05:51:57 <elliott> oh interesting. ML was introduced to write tactics for LCF.
05:52:13 <elliott> so the OCaml and Coq thing just continues that trend of ML-family languages being invented for theorem provers...
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06:07:02 <shachaf> monqy: maybe you feel like talking about the f-algebra thing a bit
06:08:03 <shachaf> you know, the adjunction : F-Alg(C) -> C
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06:43:09 <zzo38> What kind of other stuff do I need for quantum computing related stuff in Esoteric Verilog?
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06:51:25 <zzo38> I have also listed various other things; do you know about any of those things too?
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07:03:33 <zzo38> If such thing as quantum FPGA, reversible FPGA, mechanical FPGA, chemical FPGA, biological FPGA, self-modifying FPGA, etc, would exist, then Esoteric Verilog might be capable to program them. However, unlike standard Verilog, not all of Esoteric Verilog is even usable in a simulation; it is not only a hardware proper subset but there must be a *possible* proper subset, too!
07:04:01 <Bike> I'm still wondering what "biological FPGA" is supposed to mean. Same with "chemical" really.
07:04:55 <zzo38> I don't know either.
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07:06:39 <zzo38> I also don't even know if it is possible, even though ASIC might be possible of such thing, maybe (or maybe not). However, such things as infinite FPGA, and halting oracles of Turing complete systems, are obviously impossible.
07:06:49 <ais523> zzo38: I think a "destroy the universe" command cannot generally be implemented in a quantum program
07:06:59 <zzo38> ais523: I know; it is impossible.
07:07:10 <ais523> if it could be, then quantum computers could execute all NP algorithms in polynomial time, and that's not generally believed to be possible
07:07:13 <zzo38> Esoteric Verilog is partially impossible.
07:07:22 <zzo38> However, I intend to have possible things, too.
07:07:23 <ais523> I'd noticed that elsewhere
07:07:43 <ais523> so you're aiming for uncomputable quantum operations, as well as uncomputable classical operations?
07:08:03 <zzo38> Yes, but also computable things, too; not only uncomputable things.
07:12:34 <zzo38> As well as things with simply are strange.
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07:18:18 <zzo38> However, may you can notice even some possible quantum operations which I have missed in that article.
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07:47:50 <ais523> hey, #esoteric: can I ask for advice on how to do something that is probably a bad idea?
07:48:12 <shachaf> That's probably a bad idea. But you can ask.
07:48:28 <ais523> well, I want to write a web application
07:48:53 <ais523> or, at least, I'm personally going to use it standalone, but other people might reasonably use it as a web application, and I'm planning to write it in HTML+JavaScript
07:49:23 <ais523> now, this thing needs to use a bunch of information that's stored in a (read-only) relational database
07:49:33 <ais523> but I want it to work offline as well
07:49:46 <ais523> so, I want advice on how best to store an entire relational database in JavaScript
07:50:44 <ais523> (it's 33 megabytes as a sqlite3 database, so large but not unreasonably large for this purpose)
07:52:04 <ais523> one thing I'm considering is just using literal dictionaries to store the data and doing joins by hand
07:52:31 <ais523> and writing a program to trawl the database and convert it to dictionaries
07:53:23 <ais523> perhaps the sane way would be to have a pluggable database access thing
07:53:46 <ais523> and have the db-in-js as just one of the plugins, and talking to an actual webserver that was connected to an actual database server another option
07:54:25 <ais523> the other option, which I've also considered, is to talk to the owner of the database and convince them to give their site an API
07:54:41 <ais523> to which the conclusion is, that they're actually planning that but it won't be ready in time
07:55:59 <Jafet> You could threaten to copy their database and distribute it with your application.
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07:58:04 <AnotherTest> Would a system of cryptocracy (decentralized crypto-democracy) be feasible? Would it ever work?
07:59:24 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system by which decisions were made", probably
07:59:34 <shachaf> ais523: Sounds reasonable to me. How complicated are the queries that you'll be doing, anyway?
08:00:01 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system by which decisions were made and the public had high confidence in the decisions being correct from a procedural perspective, i.e. not tained by fraud or error", questionable
08:00:19 <ais523> shachaf: they're basically just a sequence of joins, mostly one-to-one, the occasional one-to-many or many-to-many
08:00:21 <AnotherTest> Could you ever organize a group of people in this way without getting total anarchy and yes, where actual decision can be made?
08:00:33 <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, doesn't HTML5 have an actual SQLy storage API?
08:00:42 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system underpinning a stable society", probably not, assuming a large society
08:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: it has a storage API, but isn't that for an entirely different purpose?
08:00:50 <ais523> this information's read-only
08:00:58 <coppro> you could certainly organize a small group, and it's been done
08:01:15 <coppro> (well, maybe not decentralized)
08:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, can't you use sqlite from js these days?
08:01:50 <ais523> shachaf: like, the HTML5 storage API is for things that are like cookies, but larger
08:01:54 <coppro> There are algorithms for propagating majority decisions on networks
08:01:55 <ais523> Vorpal: I was wondering about that
08:01:58 <coppro> they're quite interesting
08:02:01 <Vorpal> ais523, local browser storage or something?
08:02:01 <ais523> compiling sqlite3 to JS, or the like
08:02:02 <shachaf> I mean this openDatabase thing.
08:02:16 <ais523> that's for storing a database on the user's computer
08:02:16 <shachaf> Maybe this is Chrome-only or something?
08:02:26 <ais523> and adding and removing stuff in it
08:02:33 <Vorpal> ais523, right, so put a config file if it should use a server or not?
08:02:35 <ais523> whereas this database is something we're providing to the user
08:02:36 <coppro> but from a sociological and political perspective, a large society trying to do this would be doomed to fail because of the inherent problems of letting everyone participate in all the decision-making: there are just too many complexities and subtleties
08:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, and on the server version use, say, postgresql
08:03:08 <ais523> well, not really tricky because read-only is a subset of read-write
08:03:14 <Vorpal> well that is kind of large
08:03:17 <ais523> but it does change what it's optimal for
08:03:22 <Vorpal> I wouldn't want to use that from my phone for example
08:03:23 <AnotherTest> coppro: well, I guess that you can't do everything using referenda
08:03:24 <ais523> yeah, 33 MB is exactly in the "kind-of large" range :)
08:03:41 <Vorpal> ais523, did you say what it was for?
08:03:41 <ais523> a typical desktop with a broadband connection won't care
08:03:44 <AnotherTest> I suspect that would cause severe conservatism, and possible extreme thinking
08:03:53 <Vorpal> ais523, then I wonder what it is for
08:04:09 <ais523> I'm planning to update my Pokémon IV checker into a full teambuilder
08:04:11 <shachaf> This document was on the W3C Recommendation track but specification work has stopped. The specification reached an impasse: all interested implementors have used the same SQL backend (Sqlite), but we need multiple independent implementations to proceed along a standardisation path
08:04:19 <ais523> come to think of it, it'd probably need a second database too
08:04:28 <ais523> the one giving statistics from the competitive community
08:04:36 <ais523> as well as the one containing information from the game itself
08:05:07 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I have ADSL, 33 MB as a download (zip, tgz, whatever) I wouldn't care about, but if I expected to load it as a web page it would take long enough that I would assume the server was timing out, and I would probably just end up giving up and closing the page.
08:05:27 <coppro> I should probably go to sleep
08:05:38 <coppro> I believe I need to be up in 3 hours to finish an April Fool's prank
08:05:42 <Vorpal> ais523, if it was to load directly as a web page it would need a progress bar
08:05:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I wonder how far the data can be reduced via selecting only the data that we'd actually use, and the like
08:06:03 <ais523> and you could put it in a separate page and AJAX-load it, I guess; that'd work even when saved locally
08:06:40 <Vorpal> ais523, people these days expect pages to load fast. If there is no obvious reason, and no progress bar, most people would give up within 10 seconds. I remember reading some study that showed that somewhere.
08:06:44 <Vorpal> A couple of years ago.
08:06:50 <zzo38> I suggest not writing in JavaScript; write in SQL instead. Write in C you can still access over internet if needed. If you want a webpage that can be written afterward.
08:06:51 <Vorpal> I would probably give it around 10 seconds myself
08:07:12 <ais523> so yeah, progress bar is a good idea
08:07:26 <Vorpal> ais523, that means js of course
08:07:28 <ais523> anyway, I asked #esoteric because I knew you lot wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand
08:07:32 <Vorpal> but you are using it anyway
08:07:35 <ais523> well this is heavily JSy anyway
08:08:17 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, pokemon IV, which generation is that in terms of the games in it?
08:08:26 <ais523> Vorpal: 3 onwards; the one I did was for 4
08:08:41 <Vorpal> that doesn't help me really
08:08:46 <ais523> oh, 3 = ruby/sapphire/emerald/firered/leafgreen
08:08:53 <ais523> 4 = diamond/pearl/platinum/heartgold/soulsilver
08:09:02 <ais523> 5 = black/white/black2/white2
08:09:12 <Vorpal> soulsilver/heartgold are such silly names
08:09:21 <ais523> they're good games though
08:09:35 <shachaf> ais523: It should only download 33MB if the user explicitly requests it, of course.
08:09:44 <Vorpal> ais523, are they copies of each other with different bosses and/or pokemons?
08:09:47 <AnotherTest> I like soulsilver more, has an alliteration
08:09:52 <Vorpal> I seem to remember Nintendo doing a lot of that
08:10:04 <ais523> shachaf: well, that would be a case of putting a warning "this site is unusable unless it first downloads 33MB"
08:10:13 <ais523> unless I used the filesystem as a database or something stupid like that
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08:10:16 <Vorpal> which always seemed like exploiting the customer base to me
08:10:26 <ais523> Vorpal: and yeah, soulsilver and heartgold are basically identical with a few changes
08:10:29 <Vorpal> the customer base didn't seem to care though, so meh
08:10:41 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I thought you were going to have a non-offline version that made queries to the server database.
08:10:41 <ais523> in my case it's OK because I have a family who also plays Pokémon
08:10:46 <ais523> so we buy the required number of versions anyway
08:11:00 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, I'm coming around to that opinion
08:11:04 <Vorpal> ais523, well yeah that works
08:11:05 <ais523> so we'd have an online version and an offline version
08:11:13 <shachaf> At any rate abstraction is always good, right?
08:11:39 <AnotherTest> What's with the base64 string in the topic?
08:11:54 <shachaf> AnotherTest: It's the puzzle you need to solve to get to level 8.
08:12:01 <Vorpal> personally I played one pokemon game in an emulator (think it was sapphire? It had Team Magma as the bad guys I remember), and I thought "okay, that was not too bad, but I don't see myself playing another pokemon game, far too repetitive"
08:12:09 <shachaf> Well, there's also the whole "two periodic functions whose sum is the identity function" thing.
08:12:10 <AnotherTest> shachaf: Is this some kind of cryptograhpic puzzle?
08:12:24 <shachaf> Exactly. It's a cryptograph.
08:12:35 <AnotherTest> Is there another tip other than that string?
08:12:50 <zzo38> My suggestion is to not make it a webpage at all, it doesn't seem correct for what you seem to be making to me; writing it as a local program in SQL seems better.
08:13:07 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, freenode has a first of April quiz, we were/are trolling the guys who try to cheat by looking in /list.
08:13:09 <AnotherTest> zzo38: people want everything on the web these days
08:13:32 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, that is why the "level 7" is there
08:13:38 <zzo38> However, HTML (and XUL) are ways to provide a GUI which is consistent, if needed, but it isn't needed.
08:13:40 <ais523> $ base64 -d | od -tx1z -w47
08:13:41 <ais523> H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA=
08:13:43 <ais523> 0000000 1f 8b 08 00 31 b5 58 51 00 03 33 31 54 30 37 50 30 37 52 30 b3 54 30 4b 56 30 32 50 30 31 53 30 4b 03 23 20 d7 10 00 01 d1 55 34 20 00 00 00 >....1.XQ..31T07P07R0.T0KV02P01S0K.# .....U4 ...<
08:13:50 <Vorpal> ais523, it is gzip encoded and then base64
08:14:06 <AnotherTest> Well considering it's a first of april quiz, that's probably going to be encrypted using AES too
08:14:12 <Vorpal> and it decodes to some randomish hex digit
08:14:40 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I still think it is not good idea, though. Especially I don't like it, and some other people also don't like (including Stallman, but there are others too, I am sure); however, it would still be possible having a separate front-end for webpages if needed.
08:14:49 <ais523> that doesn't look randomish at all, it's all in the printable ASCII range
08:14:54 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, it is just gzip wrapped in base64
08:15:43 <Vorpal> $ echo H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | base64 -d | gunzip; echo
08:15:43 <Vorpal> 41 70 72 69 6c 20 46 6f 6f 6c 21
08:15:59 <ais523> it's "April Fool!", encoded as ASCII representations of the hex digits of its ASCII representation, then gzipped, then base64ed
08:16:57 <Vorpal> ais523, "od -tx1z -w47" <-- you remember that syntax off the top of your head?
08:17:03 <ais523> I had to look up the -w
08:17:09 <ais523> which is arguably the easier to remember
08:17:13 <ais523> I use -tx1z all the time, though
08:17:21 <Vorpal> or tx1z for that matter
08:17:27 <ais523> I set it to 47 to stop it wrapping, so that it fit on one line of IRC
08:17:29 <Vorpal> I can never remember od syntax
08:17:45 <ais523> -tx1z means "interpret single bytes at a time, output in hexadecimal, also output printable characters as ASCII"
08:18:10 <ais523> the default is -to2 or something stupid like that
08:18:14 <AnotherTest> Well, I must say it's a very original piece of text
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08:24:19 <ais523> I'm going to go for a while to buy food
08:24:27 <ais523> I'll be back in, an hour or so? maybe a bit more
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08:36:04 <coppro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr4JwPb99qU
08:36:15 <coppro> i cannot wait for this to happen
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08:57:50 <AnotherTest> Is nobody going to create an April fools programming language this year?
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09:02:15 <Fiora> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ is this close enough? XD
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09:10:49 <Vorpal> Fiora, was that made today??
09:18:22 <Vorpal> hm someone should totally implement that
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09:23:48 <Fiora> Vorpal: I think it was XD
09:23:54 <Fiora> it says april fools in the download
09:23:59 <Fiora> and apparently links to the esolangs wiki too XD
09:24:12 <Vorpal> someone should implement it
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09:47:24 <fizzie> Bah. I just ran GraphViz on an 86-node 7396-edge graph, and it's taking a forever.
09:47:34 <fizzie> (Perhaps some pruning might be appropriate.)
09:48:57 <fizzie> Uh, whoops. I think it was accidentally the complete graph.
09:49:17 <fizzie> Or what's the term for a directed graph with all the possible edges?
09:50:00 <fizzie> Yes, it really should've been 3782 edges. Which isn't terribly much better.
09:50:14 <ais523> fizzie: complete graph is the usual term for a graph with as many edges as possible
09:50:25 <ais523> not sure if it'd apply to DAGs, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply to directed graphs in general
09:50:44 <fizzie> "A complete digraph is a directed graph in which every pair of distinct vertices is connected by a pair of unique edges (one in each direction)" guess so.
09:51:05 <fizzie> It's not exactly a DAG.
09:51:14 <fizzie> You might even call it a DVCG.
09:53:24 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I was trying to make it clear that directed graphs and directed acyclic graphs were different in my response
09:53:47 <ais523> basically because I know people who'd assume acyclic if I said directed, even if there's no particular dependency between those
09:55:17 <Sgeo> o.O someone said the answer in the first channel and after that it was kind of easy
09:55:34 <Sgeo> Well, some were
10:00:31 <impomatic> The song with drug references wasn't easy :-/
10:00:54 <fizzie> The right one was also a stupid one.
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10:09:42 <fizzie> Sadly, the graph turned out pretty stupid-looking: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp.png
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10:12:01 <Sgeo> I only know of one such song :/
10:12:10 <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm misrememberig
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10:15:10 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet1.jpg
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10:16:48 <AnotherTest> shouldn't that be called www1.jpg or something
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10:20:29 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
10:22:58 <shachaf> Jafet: Please: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
10:23:58 <Jafet> https://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
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10:24:37 <shachaf> Well, it works if I click "Proceed anyway"
10:24:53 <shachaf> Which is presumably what you're meant to do with https errors.
10:24:55 <shachaf> But then it just redirects.
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10:25:41 <Jafet> Interesting, the https server redirects to the http server.
10:28:47 <fizzie> oklopol: It's pretty much using http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_mentions.html as the adjacency matrix, except without the normalization to frequencies, and with some pruning.
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10:30:11 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp-1.png same but with fdp and more pruning.
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10:31:19 <fizzie> I was going to do it using only "^foo[:,;]" attribution entries, but I had this "mentions" data ready-to-use.
10:31:42 <shachaf> So I pretty much only talk to elliott and kmc and oerjan and monqy?
10:32:18 <fizzie> It's only the 100 or so most common (mentioner, mentionee) pairs.
10:32:35 <fizzie> Quite a lot of those things are mutual, though.
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10:33:36 <fizzie> Perhaps I should've done the "divide by number of words spoken in total" normalization here too. At least it might be less elliott-dominated that way.
10:34:55 <oklopol> i love the elliott centerpiece
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10:39:43 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp-2.png normalized.
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10:43:19 <fizzie> I guess the unnormalized one looks better, anyway.
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10:43:34 <Jafet> > "hi el" ++ "liott"
10:43:49 <fizzie> You are skewing the data.
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10:44:29 <fizzie> Poor lambdabot, (according to the graph) always just muttering to emself.
10:44:53 <fizzie> Jafet: That one got ignored, it's based on a split to words.
10:45:00 <fizzie> (It's also not real-time.)
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10:59:00 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: k i vil cum der dude..u dint create to god. hw was the lec lol ibefore that got lab haven do can do togetherlol i bring the mini project. and course. i guess.
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11:00:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
11:00:41 <Vorpal> ais523_, did you make that http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ site?
11:01:11 <Vorpal> sad it is only a joke, would have been even more funny if some sort of pre-processor for it was actually implemented XD
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11:01:27 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523_, did you make that http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ site?
11:01:27 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> sad it is only a joke, would have been even more funny if some sort of pre-processor for it was actually implemented XD
11:01:54 <ais523> Vorpal: I didn't make it
11:01:54 <ais523> I did comment on it in ali, though
11:02:05 <ais523> and write some general comments about INTERCAL on the Reddit thread
11:02:21 <Vorpal> ais523, do you know who made it?
11:02:41 <ais523> well, I know their reddit username and their email address
11:02:49 <ais523> but they both appear to be single-purpose accounts
11:03:03 <ais523> so it may be someone I know using a pseudonym
11:03:32 <Vorpal> ais523, you should totally implement a web framework for intercal though, it would be so funny
11:05:01 <ais523> INTERCAL is really really bad at string handling
11:05:55 <Vorpal> right, why should that stop you
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11:08:18 <Taneb> Today's Comments on a Postcard is somewhat odd
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11:36:21 <Jafet> "Jews are forbidden from doing creative work on the Shabbat."
11:36:34 <Jafet> But they appear to have many creative ways around this rule.
11:38:00 <Sgeo> Clearly they came up with those ways on Sunday-Friday
11:39:30 <Jafet> If they invent one during shabbat, I guess they aren't allowed to use it.
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12:26:06 <nooga> http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3558.pdf C++14 getting futures?
12:27:44 <AnotherTest> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/future
12:30:58 <AnotherTest> nooga: that proposal just adds a number of extra's it seems
12:31:27 <nooga> i'm not up to date with c++
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12:45:17 <Jafet> Most people who use it aren't, either.
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13:09:52 <Taneb> Ideas for family-tree:
13:10:05 <Taneb> Unify traversePerson/traverseFamily/traverseEvent
13:10:11 <Taneb> Remove events (they're stupid)
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13:13:20 <Taneb> What could I call the unified traversal
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13:14:52 <Taneb> Something short, like, 5-6 letters
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13:16:20 <ion> That’s good, too.
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14:15:54 <ais523> Vorpal: re the intercal on interstates thing, claudio calvelli (the maker of CLC-INTERCAL) replied to a comment of mine in a way that vaguely implies he might be the author, but I'm not sure
14:16:55 <Vorpal> ais523, would it be least painful to add these extensions to C- or CLC-INTERCAL?
14:17:19 <ais523> the page itself implies it's based on C-INTERCAL
14:17:33 <ais523> in general, C-INTERCAL is easier to change; OTOH, CLC-INTERCAL has more of the functionality in question already
14:17:40 <Vorpal> well, yes, but the download is empty, just a README says "April's Fools"
14:17:46 <ais523> and is more flexible, in that it supports more types of changes
14:18:15 <Vorpal> so no clear answer to the question then?
14:18:54 <Vorpal> would you ever consider implementing something like interstates?
14:20:09 <ais523> I'm not sure I get exactly how it works, from the description
14:20:34 <Vorpal> I said something like it, with that I mean a web framework for intercal, might obviously need some changes
14:20:42 <Vorpal> or adding features not described there
14:21:25 <ais523> in general, I'd like to see it done inside the language as a library, rather than as addons to the compiler
14:21:30 <Vorpal> Hm are there any CGI programs written in INTERCAL?
14:22:07 <Vorpal> I thought data got passed as environment variables, how do you deal with that?
14:22:11 <ais523> oh wow, not just that, it still works: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/ins/insstart.html
14:22:53 <ais523> "Of course, CGI also makes valuable information available through environment variables, and INTERCAL knows nothing of such objects. But a carefully designed program can make do without that information."
14:23:52 <Vorpal> Well you could use IFFI I assume to do that
14:23:59 <ais523> yeah but it didn't exist at the time
14:24:15 <ais523> or you could use the FFI to C, which would probably be easier than the FFI to Befunge-98
14:24:21 <ais523> but that didn't exist at the time either
14:24:39 <Vorpal> anyway aren't there a few compiler language extensions in ick already?
14:24:51 <Vorpal> as opposed to libraries in the language
14:24:59 <Vorpal> IFFI and the C FFI obviously
14:25:19 <ais523> yeah, and even COME FROM is technically a C-INTERCAL extension
14:25:22 <ais523> although it became standard
14:25:32 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is the gcc of INTERCAL, really, if it does things they become standard
14:25:53 <Vorpal> you wield considerable power over a small group of people then ;P
14:26:12 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah; it's hard to be in the top n of the world at pretty much everything
14:26:25 <ais523> but luckily it doesn't take much dedication to become one of the world's top few INTERCAL programmers
14:26:47 <Vorpal> I can be one of the top n anything, if n is large enough
14:27:07 <ais523> where n is an appropriately-sized value :)
14:31:10 <Taneb> Note to self: don't try to IRC and Guitar Hero at the same time
14:31:15 <Taneb> Even on the really long notes
14:33:20 <ais523> Taneb: you could map the guitar to keys on the keyboard
14:33:29 <ais523> then you'd just have to find appropriate songs that let you play the sentences you wanted to type
14:34:19 <monqy> alt. clear your mind and let your desires channel the spirit of guitar hero; fill #esoteric with beautiful rockin poetry
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14:37:09 <nooga> i'm trying to find some resources on CPS and compiling functional languages
14:37:39 <Taneb> monqy, so here I lie
14:37:44 <Taneb> In the belly of a shark
14:39:11 <Gregor> A Facebook ad is inviting me to join the Freemasons.
14:39:41 <Gregor> Should MAAAAAYBE consider looking at my "religious views" info field before generating that ad.
14:41:25 <ais523> Gregor: I'm not sure how precise the targeting is, in that respect
14:41:27 <Taneb> Should I choose ice cream salesman based on political beliefs
14:41:47 <Gregor> ais523: Clearly not enough.
14:42:13 <ais523> Taneb: I thought you earlier said that there was only one ice cream shop in hexham, and it closed down
14:42:46 <Taneb> The one I like is closing down
14:42:56 <Taneb> And the handy ice cream van, the driver votes UKIP
14:44:06 <monqy> how does an ice cream man do vocal politics. that sounds like a bad idea
14:45:31 <Gregor> "Hey there little child, this ice cream bar costs 50p... and a secured UKIP vote from your parents."
14:45:57 <monqy> a bar of ice cream
14:45:59 <ais523> Gregor: do you not understand the concept of an ice cream van?
14:46:06 <ais523> (do they even exist in the US?)
14:46:12 <ais523> I guess they might have some for sale
14:46:17 <Gregor> ais523: Evidently not? I assume they are analogous to an ice cream truck?
14:46:27 <ais523> but they mostly exist for dispensing icecream into cones directly out of a machine
14:46:36 <Gregor> Right, totally different thing here.
14:46:39 <ais523> they drive around playgrounds and the like and play music so you know they're there
14:47:06 <Gregor> Ice cream trucks in the US serve the same purpose but sell ice cream bars and various prepackaged nonsense.
14:47:11 <AnotherTest> I must say they sometimes use a bell rather than music
14:47:13 <monqy> they also play music
14:47:17 <Taneb> The ice cream van that did the best ice cream in Hexham, the driver got arrested for drug dealing
14:47:30 <Gregor> Taneb: That's ALSO a tradition of American ice cream trucks!
14:47:37 <Gregor> (Reference: GTA: Vice City)
14:47:43 <monqy> i've never seen an ice cream truck but i've heard them. i've also seen depictions of an ice cream truck in action
14:47:51 <ais523> Taneb: ouch that's a bad combination
14:48:02 <monqy> drug-laced ice cream?
14:48:15 <ais523> Gregor: a typical ice cream van in the UK will have a small freezer containing a variety of prepackaged brand-name ice-cream just in case someone orders it
14:48:17 <ais523> but it's not used often
14:48:46 <Gregor> ais523: Right, just imagine that that's the entire thing, and you've got the American analogue.
14:48:59 <Gregor> We don't like fresh things in America.
14:49:03 <Gregor> If it's not packaged, it's not food.
14:51:20 <ais523> well, it's still not particularly fresh in that sense, they're still making it out of prepackaged artificial ice cream mix, rather than actual milk
14:52:23 <monqy> do they have astronaut ice cream
14:53:06 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars
14:54:33 <monqy> The conflicts, in which vendors raided one another's vans and fired shotguns into one another's windscreens, were more violent than might typically be expected between ice-cream salesmen.
14:54:48 <Gregor> “The conflicts, in which vendors raided one another's vans and fired shotguns into one another's windscreens, were more violent than might typically be expected between ice-cream salesmen.”
14:54:56 <Gregor> Hahah, we both quoted the same bit >_>
14:55:04 <kmc> in the US the trucks generally have soft serve machines and also prepackaged ice cream novelties
14:56:00 <ais523> gah, I've completely forgotten which side Phantom_Hoover is on the Glasgow vs. Edinburgh argument
14:56:15 <Gregor> ais523: The side with the least vowels.
14:56:33 <HackEgo> 459) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 615) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 783) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
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15:13:31 <nooga> I can't even buy "Lisp In Small Pieces" in Poland
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15:27:54 <fizzie> There's a single (I think US-style) ice cream truck company operating around here, but I think they've been cutting down the rounds, it's apparently not very profitable business any more.
15:28:45 <fizzie> I think we established on-channel that the ice cream truck melody is the same in here and in X, where X is somewhere not here, once.
15:35:01 <kmc> http://www.mistersoftee.com/ is a famous ice cream truck franchise in NYC
15:35:21 <kmc> their song is on that site
15:35:37 <kmc> yes, the premise of this brand is that you are eating Mr. Softee's hair / brains
15:38:22 <ais523> fizzie: there are multiple ice cream truck melodies in use in the UK
15:38:32 <ais523> also, you live in Finland, doesn't it have enough ice already?
15:42:19 <fizzie> ais523: I understand they are more profitable in the summer, where even we have a few slightly warm days.
15:42:34 <fizzie> Though I think they are an all-year operation.
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15:44:17 <fizzie> Possibly with a strongly pruned schedule in the winter. At least I don't remember having heard the tune in a while.
15:44:28 <fizzie> Could be they just dropped the nearby stop.
15:45:00 <fizzie> The website of the company running it doesn't have anything in English.
15:45:27 <fizzie> Also, apparently they sell (presumably frozen) pizzas now, too.
15:46:25 <kmc> they microwave them in the truck?
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15:47:08 <Koen_> microwaved pizzas? berk :(
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15:49:32 <kmc> they're fine
15:49:49 <kmc> in NYC there's a law that they can't play the music while not moving
15:49:52 <kmc> however it's routinely ignored
15:51:22 <kmc> Various Classes injured—Instruments of Torture—Encounters ; Servants, Beer-shops, Children, Ladies of elastic virtue—Effects on the Musical Profession—Retaliation — Police themselves disturbed—Invalids distracted—Horses run away—Children run over—A Cab-stand placed in tho Author's street attracts Organs—Mobs shouting out his Name— Threats to Burn his House—Disturbed in the middle of the night when very ill—An
15:55:29 <Koen_> Ladies of elastic virtue
15:58:06 <AnotherTest> What's a good length for a markov chain that generates text?
15:58:21 <ais523> AnotherTest: you could try asking fungot
15:58:21 <fungot> ais523: start hoi sir se control ki pura tym th0di na he mayo?
15:58:32 <ais523> I think it depends on your source material
15:58:38 <fungot> AnotherTest: k d i vil nt so met some hadsome boys. i even told mark in my dream of my world without you... for about 3 minutes
15:59:11 <AnotherTest> ais523: Source material will be previous messages
15:59:31 <AnotherTest> (In the context of IRC, that would mean what anyone says)
16:00:09 <ais523> AnotherTest: fungot already has a ^style IRC; you could ask fizzie about the settings it uses
16:00:09 <fungot> ais523: of course... you too!! please see your codes in flag to refer to ur own name? ya i also i since 1pm lo even worse. he's not around or just still asleep. i thought my dad wouldwake me up. last min gt reunion. i juz left house leh... ur thing end already
16:01:07 <AnotherTest> fizzie: what chain length do you use for fungot's markov chain?
16:01:07 <fungot> AnotherTest: in. should i approach... james for studiow rental too, dat we took on ur camera with that. something like a statistic?.. the real word is sarcasm... .nt scarcasim zouk on
16:01:31 <fungot> AnotherTest: only one place can sit. i go sell txtbk on monday. thanks
16:02:45 <kmc> AnotherTest: 3 to 5 characters is generally good
16:03:17 <kmc> or maybe 2 words, if you want to do it by words
16:03:24 <kmc> AnotherTest: you can do it either way
16:03:45 <AnotherTest> I think words might give better results though
16:04:02 <kmc> it depends on what kind of results you want
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16:04:17 <kmc> doing it by characters will make it generate a lot of non-words that are related to real words in an often humorous way
16:04:31 <kmc> my markov chain program (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/detrospector) has a mode specifically to print such words
16:04:37 <kmc> its name is an example of such a word
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16:04:44 <kmc> so it's also a convenient way to name software :)
16:05:03 <AnotherTest> Well, I want random looking results, but still in some way comprehensible
16:05:25 <Taneb> I still haven't figured a name for that function
16:05:29 <kmc> you could have both chains and choose between them with some probability
16:05:36 <kmc> what function Taneb?
16:05:52 <Taneb> kmc, for my Data.FamilyTree library
16:06:00 <AnotherTest> kmc: hm, that's actually a pretty interesting idea
16:06:09 <Taneb> Unifying traversePerson/traverseEvent/traverseFamily
16:06:38 <AnotherTest> Taneb: do you want 1 word for person event and family?
16:07:03 <Taneb> But I'd prefer one word for traversePerson and traverseFamily
16:07:11 <Taneb> (I don't particularly care about events)
16:07:49 <AnotherTest> traversePersonOrFamilyOrEventButIDontParticluaryCareAboutThat
16:07:54 <kmc> well people and families are both vehicles in the dawkinsian sense
16:08:10 <Taneb> kmc, I can't exactly call them vehicles
16:09:28 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Variable.
16:09:49 <fizzie> AnotherTest: See https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN for details.
16:11:13 * kmc googles Kneser-Ney smoothing, sees that the first page of hits is entirely PDFs
16:11:51 <fizzie> We've got an agglutinative language -- up to some degree, anyway; it's not quite all that -- and we do our language models with unsupervised morpheme segmentation -- https://github.com/aalto-speech/morfessor also fancy -- so we occasionally need large model orders.
16:14:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
16:14:35 <fizzie> fungot: I think that's enough of you typing like a texting teenager.
16:14:36 <fungot> fizzie: but soon, the university's cafeteria slowly kills my taste buds.
16:14:52 <fizzie> fungot: You don't even eat there; I do.
16:14:52 <fungot> fizzie: " thanks." or "" would push those two characters are much of a headache right now
16:16:22 <fizzie> `run words --finnish 10 # I think this one does N=4 character N-grams? Or possibly trigrams. Longer than bigrams, anyway.
16:16:25 <HackEgo> kurskymisempän kirityksensa kulmastuvillensa noudeksuaallani napausosiatyydemmilla ilmeiksiatereimpasi kynitaanne lopuvassanistaiseksy virkeimpiä saanillemalta
16:17:25 <fizzie> It doesn't do any cross-word modeling, though.
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16:34:07 <AnotherTest> I really don't see the point in taking down random things
16:35:33 <fizzie> It lets you feel like a real man, AIUI.
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18:13:34 * Bike points at topic
18:13:52 <ais523> Bike: I think NuclearMeltdown's been here before, it's OK
18:15:27 <NuclearMeltdown> https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here < there that's what was sent to freenode users
18:15:56 <coppro> Freenode always sets up a complex puzzle for april fools
18:16:36 <ais523> 2013/03? look of disapproval
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18:18:09 <ais523> and yeah, it looks a lot like BF, rather loosely coded as well
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18:19:04 <elliott> ais523: i think you may be mistaken about Bike's intentions
18:19:24 <NuclearMeltdown> It doesn't look like it takes any input. It just outputs "eprog"
18:19:28 <ais523> can you suggest an alternative explanation?
18:24:39 <elliott> ais523: perhaps Bike can :P
18:25:10 <Bike> nope, i'm clueless too
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18:26:36 <elliott> Bike: well it looked like ais523 was assuming the topic was helpful and you were trying to help NuclearMeltdown by saying that it's a channel about esolangs.
18:26:41 <elliott> but actually you were trying to trick them!!!!!!
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18:27:19 <ais523> elliott: no, I know the topic is useless
18:27:36 <elliott> almost as useless as the channel
18:27:36 <ais523> for both purposes, really (although it still has the link to the logs)
18:29:18 <FreeFull> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1bfojn/functor_is_now_a_superclass_of_monad_in_ghc_head/
18:30:34 <monqy> is this an april's fool
18:31:20 <Taneb> The code in the file it links to does not have it like that
18:34:31 <Bike> need a better joke... something people would like... probably a joke about corporations
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18:39:19 <ais523> incidentally, Slashdot's april fools thing is completely not funny this year
18:39:26 <ais523> although it's lead to some interesting discussion
18:39:46 <ais523> also someone who recognised rot13 was a substitution cipher, but apparently not the specific cipher, and so solved it by hand
18:39:52 <Vorpal> ais523, what is their joke? I never visit their site
18:40:22 <ais523> Vorpal: articles are being rot13ed and you have to log in to be able to derot13 them without interstitial ads
18:40:28 <ais523> in order to persuade people to log in
18:40:37 <monqy> that's not very funny
18:40:37 <ais523> (followed by at least four obviously fake stories, rot13ed)
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18:42:39 <ais523> slashdot's done some pretty good april 1 stuff in the past
18:42:51 <ais523> I missed omg ponies, but it's apparently one of the best april fools things ever (and this is before ponies became a meme)
18:43:10 <ais523> and the achievements thing was pretty good too
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19:26:51 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: confusing people who are trying to cheat in freenode's april fools quiz via /list
19:28:39 <fizzie> https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here has the starting point.
19:28:50 <fizzie> Though I have no idea whether they're still awarding any cloaks?
19:28:57 <fizzie> They had people who had solved it already, I think.
19:29:02 <elliott> what kind of cloak do you get anyway
19:29:17 <fizzie> Perhaps it says "i/am/a/fool".
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19:31:18 <Taneb> Should I put family-tree-4.0.0.0 on Hackage yet
19:32:12 <fizzie> A quick grep on all freenode logs reveals at least "april-fools/winner/thesecondest".
19:32:19 <fizzie> I suppose it'd be something like that.
19:32:27 <fizzie> Very prestigious, I'm sure.
19:33:20 <fizzie> (Uh, that is, "all of my personal logs that are from the freenode network", not "all freenode traffic ever".)
19:34:05 <fizzie> There's also a april-fools/winner/bjoern and that's all cloaks in my logs that contain the string "fool". Except for colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut, but that's probably not quiz-related.
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19:40:43 <oerjan> i seem to have forgotten to read the logs yesterday
19:41:36 <oerjan> monqy: wait do you mean March 30 didn't exist?
19:44:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:44:31 <oerjan> darn now monqy stopped existing too
19:45:00 <Taneb> oerjan, should I upload family-tree 4.0.0.0 to Hackage?
19:45:19 <ais523> oerjan: yes, march 31 was cancelled this year, they didn't have the budget for it
19:45:34 <Taneb> Yesterday was cancelled due to lack of interest
19:45:44 <Taneb> The pendulums were held and the clocks reset
19:46:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> Have I done enough in this community to warrant my own page on the wiki <-- i think you've done more than i had when i made my own page
19:46:48 <oerjan> you have more esolangs, although probably not as many programs in them.
19:47:04 <elliott> oerjan is notable because he is a wiki admin
19:47:07 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't have an opinion on family-tree
19:47:48 <oerjan> Taneb: although i think most people encourage uploading early and often
19:48:10 <oerjan> ais523: i'll just read the elaborate ruse then.
19:48:15 <kmc> by the time you finish reading this sentence edwardk has uploaded 27 additional package versions
19:49:27 <oerjan> elliott: have you passed me in number of edits yet?
19:49:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has changed nick to Mathnerd626.
19:49:34 <ThatOtherPerson> "You hear someone cursing shoplifters" <-- did NetHack just say that or am I sleeping?
19:49:41 <elliott> oerjan: hm good question. let me see if i can remember the query for that
19:50:01 <elliott> oerjan: also, yay? keep that up and you'll end up really being a wiki admin.
19:50:56 <Taneb> I don't like writing about myself, gah
19:51:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:52:16 <elliott> probably closer if you merge in my previous accounts
19:52:39 <elliott> cpressey has edited more than ais523, surprisingly
19:53:06 <ais523> I tend to make large single edits when writing about languages
19:53:39 -!- ais523 has quit.
19:53:48 <oerjan> i also make large single edits...
19:54:10 <oerjan> since i don't like taking over most of recent changes
19:54:25 <oerjan> i do lots of previews though.
19:55:19 <elliott> april fooles joke: preview buton saves the page
19:55:41 <oerjan> elliott: that fools the wrong person, i'm afraid
19:55:44 <fizzie> April fooles megajoke: preview baton deletes the page?
20:00:54 <Taneb> Can I, like, get one of you guys to right a page about me on the wiki
20:01:35 <Taneb> You don't understand
20:01:43 <Taneb> All the pages about me on the wiki are slanty
20:04:37 <oerjan> elliott: What we need is a template that turns the "rn" in Nathan van Doorn into an animation that cycles between rn and m.
20:05:11 <oerjan> only then can a proper page be made.
20:05:30 <oerjan> it might also contain small explosions.
20:05:39 <elliott> oerjan: how about it always says "rn", but has really bad keming.
20:07:41 <elliott> oerjan: btw you have to update the wiki for me
20:08:01 <oerjan> sic transit gloria wiki
20:09:32 <oerjan> google actually made that a suggestion when i typed the 'w'. sadly only about 9 hits.
20:09:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:10:21 <elliott> probably people wanting to look it up on WP
20:10:43 <oerjan> it looks like a _lot_ of phrases work that way.
20:10:51 -!- augur has joined.
20:11:33 <oerjan> i get "elliott wiki" as the last suggestion on the "wi"
20:12:18 <oerjan> similarly for oerjan, although it turns oe to ø
20:13:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:02 <oerjan> <Halite> I'd like to know an operation whose functionally completeness is unknown
20:14:04 <oerjan> i'm wondering if he means boolean completeness (in which case the answer is that it cannot be unknown as it's easy to check) or lambda calculus completeness
20:14:37 <oerjan> (also wondering if he knows what he means)
20:14:43 <elliott> probably the former. he was trying to make a language based around that last time.
20:15:04 <elliott> just allow the operation to be uncomputable
20:15:13 <oerjan> i think i saw a reddit post about it recently
20:15:48 <oerjan> elliott: um a boolean function of booleans in the usual sense cannot be uncomputable.
20:16:07 <elliott> oerjan: well if you case on whether RH is true or not then it's more that you don't know which of two functions it is.
20:16:09 <oerjan> it has, after all, a finite truth table
20:16:24 <elliott> that doesn't mean we know what the truth table is
20:18:02 <oerjan> the question then is whether we know the operation if we don't know its truth table.
20:18:58 <elliott> oerjan: well it's a case of, if you define the function as its truth table, then you know what the truth table is classically, but not constructively.
20:19:28 <elliott> IOW, the function only exists classically (unless you can decide RH, obviously)
20:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:27:57 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:30:54 <Taneb> Okay, now I have on my computer some HTML with naught but a h1 and a script switching the text of the h1 back and forth between "Nathan van Doorn" and "Nathan van Doom"
20:34:58 <Taneb> I wonder if it could be done with CSS rather than JavaScript
20:34:59 <fizzie> If I type "fizzie w", Google suggests I'm looking for a "fizzy wiki".
20:35:26 <Taneb> I get "tneb webmail"
20:36:24 <fizzie> Ooh, are you named after the Tamil Nadu Electricity Board?
20:44:32 -!- augur has joined.
20:47:05 -!- lahwran has changed nick to lahwran-.
20:47:07 -!- lahwran- has changed nick to lahwran.
20:49:36 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe the bad keming version could be made with just css.
20:50:54 <oerjan> i think running actual scripts might require elliott to do something.
20:52:48 <oerjan> as for css, i don't know enough of it to be sure
20:54:25 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
20:56:49 <fizzie> Doo<span style="letter-spacing: -Kpx;">rn</span>. With the right K. Possibly fractional. Possibly also some other unit.
20:57:32 <fizzie> Making a robustly bad keming across a variety of devices and renderers and fonts left as an exercise.
20:57:54 <oerjan> (that was to the second line)
20:58:44 <oerjan> surely em/ex would be better than px in terms of working across fonts, do css support that?
20:59:11 <fizzie> And I guess a "both" too, for good matter.
20:59:25 <fizzie> Where "good" means "bad"?
21:00:34 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, Tumblr seems to have turned into naught but pictures of Misha Collins
21:01:05 <ThatOtherPerson> The epic battle of XKCD vs. Wikipedia is currently ongoing
21:02:04 <ThatOtherPerson> (Protected List of fictional ducks: xkcd ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 09:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 09:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC))))
21:03:15 <oerjan> ok i made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nathan_van_Doorn
21:04:11 <oerjan> i think the bold in the introduction looks good, the actual title could be wider?
21:04:54 <oerjan> -0.05 looks better there except has a slight gap between r and n
21:05:57 <oerjan> hm it seems like my browser doesn't distinguish -0.05, -0.04 and -0.03 much
21:06:23 <fizzie> Those are very small differences.
21:07:09 <oerjan> i was decreasing when i should be increasing
21:07:34 <oerjan> darn edit conflict you rascals
21:07:35 <elliott> Taneb: was that last edit you
21:07:48 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:07:53 <Taneb> I... don't think so
21:07:54 <fizzie> One thing that might make those values quantized is that some systems might also be rounding something to pixel boundaries to avoid fuzzy edges, I understand that happens.
21:08:15 <elliott> Taneb: was it one of your adoring fans
21:08:23 <Taneb> It very well may have been
21:08:35 <Taneb> I have more followers on Tumblr than Phantom_Hoover
21:08:36 <oerjan> -0.06 seemed best for me
21:09:26 <elliott> oerjan: older title space was better on my system fwiw
21:09:32 <elliott> like there is a noticeable space now
21:10:27 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/tmp/keming.html
21:10:47 * FireFly wants ::nth-letter(linearexpression)
21:11:35 <oerjan> elliott: what about now? -0.08
21:12:27 <FireFly> Currently it looks like 'm' to me FWIW
21:12:34 <elliott> oerjan: I deem this acceptable
21:12:39 <oerjan> i could increase to -0.09 if necessary, -0.1 is when it starts looking really fishy in my browser
21:12:44 <elliott> oerjan: as a reward you will become a wiki admin.
21:12:51 <oerjan> ok then we make this stand
21:13:20 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:13:26 -!- jix has joined.
21:13:37 <fizzie> There's a gap in the header even in the latest version for me, but really, too much fiddling. Unless you go the FireFly route.
21:14:50 <fizzie> Oh, I was assuming it actually used the positions of the individual letters to adjust it.
21:15:33 <oerjan> fizzie: was the original -0.1 version without a gap for you?
21:16:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I saw it. (For the reference, currently https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-DOOM.png like this.)
21:20:50 <fizzie> By the magic of Inspect Element, I've determined that for my system, it needs a letter-spacing of -0.117em or lower to be gapless, but that's probably going to break it for someone else.
21:21:15 <fizzie> (Also the shapes look quite clunky even when the balls are touching.)
21:21:44 <oerjan> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Nathan_van_Doorn&oldid=35927
21:22:45 <fizzie> It seems that -0.1em and -0.08em and even -0.116em all are identical for me. But best not to fiddle for me, I think.
21:24:55 <oerjan> ok now there's a basic page, others may add more if they deem appropriate (which i may remove if i deem inappropriate.)
21:25:04 <fizzie> Hrm. I've spent the whole Easter idly wondering why my MDCS parallel run is still in the queue. Now I went to check for the queue, and it wasn't there; just MATLAB hadn't noticed. The logfile indicates ssh said "WARNING: Your password has expired. Password change required but no TTY available." and died, and of course MATLAB never noticed a thing.
21:26:32 <fizzie> "connected to 44 labs." well won't you look at that.
21:26:48 <oerjan> oops the non-bold looks weird.
21:28:25 <oerjan> Taneb: your missing doctorate is just a formality, right?
21:28:45 <elliott> Taneb: ok wtf http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Nathan_van_Doorn&curid=8848&diff=35930&oldid=35929
21:28:51 <elliott> did you link that page somewhere or something
21:28:56 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).
21:29:25 <elliott> oerjan: btw you forgot [[Category:People]] hth
21:29:35 <oerjan> i did already remove those bits btw. although i was ambivalent on the awesome part.
21:29:51 <Taneb> elliott, I am confused probably more than you
21:30:59 <fizzie> NetRange: 108.171.107.0 - 108.171.107.255. CustName: Black Oak Computers Inc - Miami.
21:31:41 <fizzie> Some sort of cheapo VPS provider.
21:32:05 <fizzie> Well, the "has a cheap VPS" predicate isn't an especially limiting one.
21:32:46 <fizzie> (I'm having slight doubts about the reliability of a provider calling itself ReliableHosting.com.)
21:33:40 <Bike> well, ,there you'd just assume they were being ironic
21:34:04 <oerjan> it means they can lie about it, again and again, hth
21:34:32 <elliott> oerjan: op me. I need to kick you
21:34:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:34:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:34:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:35:02 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:35:09 <oerjan> apparently not urgently enough.
21:35:19 <elliott> oerjan: hey hey give me a minute.
21:35:23 <elliott> i was typing a line in another channel.
21:35:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:35:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:35:40 <elliott> btw you can do /msg chanserv op #esoteric elliott to do it in one step.
21:35:44 -!- elliott has kicked oerjan oerjan.
21:35:45 <fizzie> You'd have to be a patient to believe elliott.
21:35:50 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o Taneb.
21:35:52 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:35:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:36:37 <elliott> feels very assuring to have taneb watching over us imo
21:37:21 <Bike> doth is second person.......
21:37:45 -!- mb06cs has left ("**pouf**").
21:38:10 <Bike> But I just said it is. Why would I say it is if it wasn't true?
21:38:12 <oerjan> i suppose "doth" could somehow weirdly be both.
21:38:31 <oerjan> Bike: well look at the date...
21:39:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !: not found
21:40:25 <oerjan> "In older forms of English, when the pronoun thou was in active use and verbs had a distinct second-person singular present-tense form, the verb do had two such forms: dost, in helping-verb uses, and doest, in other uses. (Naturally, these are both now archaic, though doest is less common than dost even as an archaism.)"
21:40:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
21:40:43 <zzo38> I don't yet have anything of how quantum operators are called and so on
21:40:45 <fizzie> `! should be like `? except with more forceful opinions on matters.
21:40:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !: not found
21:41:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:41:29 <fizzie> I see where this is going.
21:42:04 <oerjan> `run cp bin/WELCOME bin/'!'; sed -i 's/welcome/\\!/' bin/'!'
21:42:05 <HackEgo> !`DETAk{݇H^O75Idp6{΅hdHg(P/.KY#qaާK;`GæC.R(Oya|f~n,jK,ɾN?I?SaNszt_-fߪ ))́ϒz?%TV]8|T1H`m߲&CjA5n嗣Aد¶O!8UX/QUwP`cX4ŤB|y?>ㄭ"m|
21:42:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:42:22 <fizzie> oerjan: It does not sound useful for ! to call !...
21:42:42 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:42:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork
21:43:22 <HackEgo> cat: bin/!: No such file or directory
21:43:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ngevd: not found
21:43:46 <oerjan> `run cp bin/WELCOME bin/'!'; sed -i 's/welcome/\\?/' bin/'!'
21:44:02 -!- Frooxius has joined.
21:44:20 <HackEgo> ELLIOTT WROTE THIS LEARN DB, AND WROTE OR IMPROVED MANY OF THE OTHER COMMANDS IN THIS BOT. HE PROBABLY HAS DONE OTHER THINGS? HE IS ALSO TIRE. AND A LYSTROSAUR.
21:44:40 <FireFly> `! should probably also substitute all dots with exclamation marks
21:44:42 <HackEgo> SHOULD PROBABLY ALSO SUBSTITUTE ALL DOTS WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS? ¯\(°_O)/¯
21:45:12 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:45:15 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:45:32 -!- carado has joined.
21:47:29 <HackEgo> C IS THE LANGUAGE OF��V�>WIד�.��SEGMENTATION FAULT
21:47:36 <fizzie> `sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:47:38 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
21:47:46 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:47:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 25: unterminated `s' command
21:47:56 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:48:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:48:28 <fizzie> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:48:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:48:48 <fizzie> How did that happen, with an address and all.
21:49:06 <fizzie> Oh, I guess I didn't actually revert anything.
21:49:43 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's/ | sed.*//' bin/!
21:49:46 <oerjan> um or you reverted something _else_.
21:49:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:50:14 <fizzie> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll DEFINITELY ruin it
21:50:18 <fizzie> oerjan: You win some, you lose some.
21:50:24 <HackEgo> MONADS ARE JUST MONOIDS IN THE CATEGORY OF ENDOFUNCTORS!
21:50:39 <oerjan> Gregor: argh something is wrong with the repository browser
21:51:19 <oerjan> it doesn't show anything after my first bin/! change attempt
21:51:24 <FireFly> That's where I recognize your nick from
21:55:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:55:19 <oerjan> well that looks right anyway
21:55:52 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:56:10 <ThatOtherPerson> FireFly: I've given up on #0x10c-dev for now, and am loitering around here instead
21:56:40 <FireFly> The first part seems to apply to Notch as well
21:56:44 <oerjan> _that_ got into the repository.
21:56:47 <ThatOtherPerson> Because it's full of smart people and I am marginally interested in esoteric languages
21:57:44 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/|/| /' bin/'!'
21:57:53 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:58:16 <oerjan> nope, that did show up fine...
21:58:57 <oerjan> @tell Gregor the repository browser isn't showing fizzie's changes to bin/!
22:00:00 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:00:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
22:01:18 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it got worse, after i did a change, fizzie's changes disappeared D:
22:02:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # Testing fizzie's last command
22:02:28 <fizzie> I think it just doesn't like me. :/ :\
22:02:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:02:52 <oerjan> hm that may be, as that did show up
22:03:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork \ /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork
22:03:27 <oerjan> fizzie: actually it also forgot my own changes.
22:04:04 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/!/?/' bin/'!'
22:04:13 <fizzie> Old age doesn't come alone.
22:04:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:04:22 <HackEgo> FIZZIE IS RUMOURED TO BE WRITTEN IN FUNGE-98!
22:05:28 <HackEgo> TANEB IS NOT ELLIOTT, NO MATTER WHO YOU ASK! HE ALSO ISN'T A RABBI ALTHOUGH HE HAS PRETENDED IN THE PAST! (SEE ALSO: D-MODULES)
22:06:15 <Taneb> `! ThatOtherPerson
22:06:17 <HackEgo> THATOTHERPERSON! ¯\(°_O)/¯
22:08:15 <fizzie> The <@Taneb> looks kind of confusing.
22:09:09 <Taneb> When did that happen
22:09:37 <oerjan> our impending doom is a little absent minded
22:09:41 <fizzie> Half an hour or so ago.
22:12:50 <HackEgo> HEJ OCH VäLKOMMEN TILL DEN INTERNATIONELLA KNUTPUNKTEN FöR DESIGN OCH DISTRIBUTION AV ESOTERISKA PROGRAMSPRåK! FöR MER INFORMATION, SE VåR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FöR DEN ANDRA SORTENS ESOTERISM, PRöVA #ESOTERIC På IRC!DAL!NET!)
22:14:30 <elliott> please fix the unicode there :(
22:14:35 <elliott> as in, it should be capitalising all letters, not just [a-z].
22:14:36 <Taneb> > length "Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php"
22:14:53 <Taneb> > length "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
22:15:17 <Taneb> > length "Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling"
22:15:35 <elliott> Taneb conducts vital operator research
22:15:44 <FireFly> er oh, it was a perl thing
22:16:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:17:14 <FireFly> `run perl -e 'print(uc "räksmörgås")'
22:17:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, ^list means Homestuck update
22:18:49 <variable> some people here might be interested in this http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:19:55 <Taneb> I've seen that site before, back when I didn't know any C
22:20:01 <elliott> @tell kmc http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:20:30 <Bike> doesn't kmc know about that already
22:20:36 <Bike> or is that the joke
22:23:38 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).
22:23:44 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell ThatOtherPerson http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:25:57 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's/perl/perl -C7/' bin/\!
22:26:04 <HackEgo> HEJ OCH VÄLKOMMEN TILL DEN INTERNATIONELLA KNUTPUNKTEN FÖR DESIGN OCH DISTRIBUTION AV ESOTERISKA PROGRAMSPRÅK! FÖR MER INFORMATION, SE VÅR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FÖR DEN ANDRA SORTENS ESOTERISM, PRÖVA #ESOTERIC PÅ IRC!DAL!NET!)
22:27:42 <Fiora> wow, the underhanded results from the 2009 contest are really cool
22:27:49 <Fiora> the winner's is just so sneaky
22:27:59 <FireFly> The older ones are also nice
22:28:17 <FireFly> Was 2009 the airport luggage thing?
22:28:48 -!- nooga has joined.
22:30:03 <Bike> wait did they name the winners today
22:30:06 <Bike> four years later
22:30:24 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
22:30:41 <elliott> i love things that seem to have no conception of time
22:31:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\!: No such file or directory
22:31:10 <HackEgo> cat: bin/1: No such file or directory
22:31:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:31:31 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:31:45 <Bike> RHays's is pretty nice indeed
22:31:59 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:32:39 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:32:53 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\1/g"'
22:32:55 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 34: unterminated `s' command
22:33:11 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\1/g":'
22:33:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 35: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
22:33:26 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\\1/g":'
22:33:35 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\\1/g":' bin/\!
22:33:46 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 17: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
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22:34:22 <fizzie> I think it's hokay even with mid-dot changes.
22:34:35 <fizzie> (But you wanted \( \) there, for sed.)
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22:35:45 <FireFly> I thought it'd be nice to at least fix the URLs
22:35:57 <fizzie> They're more forceful that way.
22:36:27 <fizzie> Post dot-coms, it's the era of shout-coms.
22:36:40 <olsner> I guess we have to register ESOLANGS!ORG as a TLD
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22:37:56 <oerjan> fizzie: obviously the other esotericians should register that.
22:38:16 <olsner> I think it's up to dalnet if they want to be reachable under that name
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22:39:21 <Bike> it's like an old uunet bangpath! or whatever that was
22:40:46 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:41:15 <kmc> elliott: woah underhanded C contest is back
22:41:21 <kmc> thanks for the heads up
22:41:40 <Bike> any time in the last four years
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22:42:23 <elliott> eventually I will remind kmc of all the things
22:42:28 <elliott> and he will be so in my debt
22:42:33 <elliott> well I haven't thought that far yet
22:43:16 <kmc> Taneb: hello i'm bear
22:43:30 <Bike> who's opping? bear is opping
22:43:46 -!- Taneb has kicked kmc I can't bear bears.
22:44:18 <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back
22:44:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
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22:45:10 <elliott> dammit kmc you disproved my prediction
22:45:11 <Gregor> `addquote <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:45:12 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:45:15 <HackEgo> 1005) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:45:33 <kmc> http://pbfcomics.com/37/
22:45:49 <Bike> kmc: you saw http://www.updrafters.com/PBF/ right
22:46:13 <Bike> ok well you have now
22:46:41 <kmc> i've seen it; i can't un-see it
22:46:59 <elliott> this thing almost fooled me into believing it's kickstarter
22:47:40 <elliott> oh it's not a knock-off, it's a stupid day
22:47:55 <Bike> http://www.updrafters.com/about/about.html cool
22:48:14 <Bike> "Aquatic Journeys: The Wet Dreams of Neil Gaiman" no yeah best parody of kickstarter since kickkstriker
22:48:27 <elliott> best parody of kickstarter since kickstarter
22:51:35 <elliott> the neil gaiman one is a 404 :'(
23:06:33 <Taneb> ~eval fold [Sum 1]
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23:19:32 <oerjan> <Vorpal> AnotherTest, freenode has a first of April quiz, we were/are trolling the guys who try to cheat by looking in /list.
23:20:02 <oerjan> (1) it's not a first april quiz, but an easter egg hunt in the american tradition.
23:20:41 <elliott> oerjan: it is 1st april-related
23:20:46 <elliott> the cloak they give out mentions april fools
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23:21:26 <oerjan> they started it before april 1 in any western timezones though
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23:21:32 <elliott> btw freenode is very unstable right now.
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23:22:00 <fizzie> oerjan: "Like every year, we would like to invite our users to take part in the April 1st quiz and have the chance to win an April Fools’ cloak."
23:22:22 <oerjan> Taneb: wait wait you needed to kick me for being wrong!
23:22:37 <Taneb> oerjan, it is okay
23:22:42 <Taneb> You were right all along
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23:23:53 <oerjan> also (2) still doth apply
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23:25:57 <elliott> oerjan: if you op me i'll take care of it
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23:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: https://github.com/ekmett/free/issues/15
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23:33:56 <elliott> i was linking it for the crushing edwardk criticism, of course.
23:34:15 <oerjan> i saw the title and thought that meant it had been changed D:
23:34:31 <oerjan> although i actually knew the issue he mentions
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23:40:11 <Taneb> Both the hats and the FPS minigame
23:40:25 <HackEgo> pib1999: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:47:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainbow
23:47:40 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ p=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p))) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)
23:49:47 <Sgeo> http://clochure.org/
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23:51:52 <oerjan> girl genius hasn't updated :/
23:54:31 <GOMADWarrior> http://187.65.193.132:8080/anoncollab/projects.php
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23:59:11 <elliott_> GOMADWarrior: from trolling #haskell to spamming offtopic links here...?
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