00:00:31 <Bike> even bigger, in some parts
00:00:33 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:00:41 <elliott> the joke was comparing everything to the size of wales guys
00:00:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you know about: cpos
00:01:39 <Bike> honestly siberia is basically too big for me to comprehend
00:01:46 <Bike> sakha by itself is about as big as india
00:01:54 <Bike> which has like four billion people in it
00:02:08 <Bike> no i've been to america it's not that big
00:02:26 <hagb4rd> it's just the ass of the world
00:02:30 <Bike> it's mostly alaska though
00:02:32 <elliott> everything bigger than the UK is huge
00:02:36 <elliott> no i wasn't even counting alaska
00:02:58 <Bike> i'm pretty sure the british empire at greatest extent was bigger than the US is now...
00:03:04 <Bike> of course that probably /includes/ parts of the us
00:03:32 <hagb4rd> british empire was biggest once iirc
00:03:49 <elliott> for a start those didn't really count as places, it was just sort of adding to the list of bragging rights
00:04:05 <elliott> for a second I WAS BORN IN 1995 OK
00:04:27 <Bike> oh hey it didn't include any US, except maybe that tiny part of Canada near Minnesota
00:04:33 <Bike> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Iq8P_KCMf6U/SXfRqFbWDBI/AAAAAAAAAB0/0-eXe_Orw_o/s400/british+empire+greatest+extent.png
00:05:09 <elliott> it's ok i got my magnifying glass out
00:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, wait was the british empire ever actually part of the UK]
00:13:58 <Fiora> http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg I'm reminded of this image
00:14:05 <Fiora> (white: countries britain did not invade)
00:14:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the UK is confusing enough now, do i really have to bother about the past too
00:15:03 <Bike> Fiora: when did britain invade, like, ethiopia
00:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the confusion now is because of the long and messy process of dismantling the empire
00:15:35 <Bike> russia would have been the civil war i suppose
00:16:40 <Bike> indonesia... during malaysia apparently
00:17:30 <elliott> Fiora: damn, we really missed out on sweden.
00:17:36 <Bike> portugal, like, the peninsular war?
00:18:31 <Bike> yeah i can't tell when portugal was invaded you have a treaty in force from fucking 1373
00:19:06 <kmc> Fiora: great map :)
00:19:31 <kmc> when did the UK invade norway
00:19:46 <Bike> yeah maybe during wwii
00:20:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign ah yep
00:20:16 <Bike> this is obviously a stretchy definition of "invade", but hey
00:21:00 <kmc> it's also confusing because modern borders
00:21:14 <kmc> like... canada
00:21:24 <Bike> it's not like britain invaded south sudan
00:21:48 <kmc> this map is too old to have south sudan i think
00:22:08 <hagb4rd> war on terror wasn't found yet
00:22:21 <kmc> does this count being given a protectorate as 'invading'
00:22:34 <Bike> it counts pretty much everything as invading, near as i can tell
00:23:39 <hagb4rd> at least if there is no uno-policy
00:23:57 <Bike> i mean, it's good for rhetorical points, not so much for accuracy
00:24:21 <Fiora> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
00:24:25 <Fiora> that's the article, I think
00:24:39 <kmc> now adding "so look out Luxembourg" to the end of all headlines
00:24:48 <Bike> noooo my native luxembourg :(
00:25:15 <Fiora> ah, so it includes everything that has had british military presence, or privateers/pirates/armed explorers operating with the approval of their government
00:26:00 <Bike> "new research"
00:26:29 <Bike> "fuck, we DID invade the maldives that one time, didn't we'
00:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "new scans have detected british soldiers in 9 out of 10 countries"
00:26:55 <Bike> wait this map is new enough to have south sudan
00:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a guy in my school whose family was from sudan and another who was from algeria
00:28:17 <Fiora> Bike: so like I was reading about the south sea bubble and /wooooow/
00:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> and the latter was gloating to the former about how he was now from the largest african country
00:28:31 <Fiora> It's like, financial scam stuff from today, 300 years ago
00:28:37 <Bike> Fiora: the what
00:28:57 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Company
00:29:00 <kmc> remember the guy that made up a fake island and sold people shares of it
00:29:07 <Fiora> a company basically created to pawn off the debt of the british government
00:29:17 <Bike> hm i don't think the UK ever invaded east timor per se. fucked it over, yes, but at a distance
00:29:29 <Fiora> and they gave it resource/trade rights for a region of the world that seemed valuable, but actually wasn't, because the spanish owned it and they were insanely restricted
00:29:41 <Fiora> and they gave out tons of shares, bribed people, did tons of marketing and promotion, and the share prices soared 1000%
00:29:54 <Bike> Fiora: it's beyond me how you come up with a plan like "let's make a company and give it a monopoly over a continent"
00:30:03 <Fiora> resulting in an economic crash as the bubble popped and thousands of people went bankrupt and ruined countless british royalty
00:30:24 <Fiora> (and countless non-royalty too)
00:30:29 <elliott> The Governor and Company of the merchants of Great Britain, trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for the encouragement of fishing
00:30:37 <Bike> i love fishing
00:30:51 <elliott> i wonder who first came up with the idea of naming things short enough that people will actually remember them
00:30:52 <Fiora> it was like, everything. financial scam artists, politicians trying to pawn off debt, politicians being bribed, cheesy financial constructions
00:30:57 <Bike> TGaCotMoGBTttSSaOPoAaftEoF for short
00:31:12 <elliott> realised that you don't have to explain literally everything about a thing in its name
00:31:29 -!- augur has joined.
00:31:31 <Bike> have you ever tried counting the british royalty?
00:31:32 <Fiora> sorry, I mean aristocracy I guess to be more precise
00:31:41 <Fiora> rich titled people <.<
00:31:45 <Bike> pretty sure i couldn't count them
00:31:59 <Bike> "The Bubble Act, which forbade the creation of joint-stock companies without royal charter, was promoted by the South Sea company itself before its collapse" nice
00:32:16 <Bike> i also like the name there
00:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure the cardinality of the royals is at most aleph null
00:32:33 <Bike> R v Cawood (1724) 2 Ld. Raym. 1361, the only prosecution brought under the Act which, according to L.C.B. Gower, (Principles of Modern Company Law, 4th Ed., 31) "decided nothing of importance".
00:32:45 <Fiora> there's so many things they did that basically feel amazingly deja-vuish
00:32:52 <Fiora> like, the whole thing feels like it's actually a financial scam from 2008 or something
00:32:58 <Fiora> except, like, with some bit about south america
00:33:01 <Bike> did they cite an economics paper that turned out to be largely made up
00:33:02 <shachaf> are we playing ask elliott what to do with my life
00:33:13 <shachaf> elliott: waht should i do with my life
00:33:24 <elliott> shachaf: discover uppercase letters
00:33:34 <Fiora> "A resolution was proposed in parliament that bankers be tied up in sacks filled with snakes and tipped into the murky Thames."
00:33:35 <shachaf> elliott: uppercase letters are stupid
00:33:39 <Bike> «The most commercially significant aspect of the company's monopoly trading rights to the Spanish empire was the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht's slave-trading 'Asiento', which granted the exclusive right to sell slaves in all of the American colonies. The Asiento set a quota of selling 4800 people into slavery per year»
00:33:44 <Bike> europe is fuck
00:33:52 <shachaf> elliott: what's the point of having two equivalent sets of letters
00:34:04 <shachaf> most of which look completely different
00:34:06 <Bike> "during the course of 96 voyages in twenty-five years, the South Sea Company purchased 34,000 slaves of whom 30,000 survived the voyages across the Atlantic"
00:34:12 <shachaf> where you take a letter from one set if it's at the beginning of a sentence and/or name
00:34:20 <Fiora> Bike: the best part was how the import duties on slaves were actually so high that the "trading rights" weren't even worth anything
00:34:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wh
00:34:30 <Fiora> it was like, a whole thing constructed to look valuable but not actually be valuable
00:34:36 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do with my life
00:35:03 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: lower bound, looks like
00:35:14 <Bike> "Disputes connected with it led to the War of Jenkins' Ear (1739)." hey i forgot about the best war ever
00:35:19 <elliott> i like how it just casually implies literally four thousand slaves died travelling
00:35:20 <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:35:35 <Fiora> if I had to guess the mortality rate among non-slaves was probably pretty high too at sea <.<
00:35:37 <Bike> elliott: "In other words, approximately 11% of humans transported as slaves died in transport. This was a relatively low mortality rate on the Middle Crossing"
00:35:54 <Fiora> if anything I would be almost unsurprised if fewer slaves died than seamen >_<
00:35:55 <elliott> south sea company, high quality slave trade
00:35:56 <Bike> protip slavery sucked
00:36:00 <Fiora> because the salves were more valuable
00:36:23 <Bike> Fiora: the slaves were still in shitty(ier) cargo hold conditions, though
00:36:25 <Fiora> and the british navy just, like, ""impressed"" people. or something
00:36:34 <Fiora> (worst euphemism ever)
00:36:36 <Bike> i'm sure you've seen the diagrams of slave holds
00:36:46 <hagb4rd> `addquote <Fiora>shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:37:00 <HackEgo> 1036) <Fiora>shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:37:15 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African_slave_trade.png it's kind of pretty sad how little we know about precolonial africa :/
00:37:42 <Bike> especially the parts not directly relevant to slave traders
00:38:00 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know, what are you doing now?
00:38:14 <Bike> «In 1807, the UK Parliament passed the Bill that abolished the trading of slaves. The King of Bonny (now in Nigeria) was horrified at the conclusion of the practice: "We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself."»
00:38:30 <elliott> `run sed -i '1036s/>/> /' quotes
00:38:46 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure the cardinality of the royals is at most aleph null <-- now now, they could be fractally distributed
00:39:28 <Bike> " King Jaja of Opobo, a former slave himself, completely refused to do business with slavers" hm not bad
00:40:14 <Bike> but then the brits invaded and killed him. thx
00:40:24 <Fiora> "the east, as Jaja declared himself as the middle-man in palm Oil trading, thus asking them to stop trading directly with the European. This resulted in a war (Ikot Udo Obong War) between Jaja and the Annang and Ibuno people"
00:40:28 <Fiora> "In 1887, he was deceived when he was told to go and negotiate with the Queen of England by the British and sent on exile to Saint Vincent in the West Indies."
00:40:53 <shachaf> kmc: "nothing" to a first approximation
00:42:03 <Bike> Fiora: i think i need a doll of niall ferguson to punch when i read these things
00:42:23 <HackEgo> 1036) <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:42:47 <shachaf> i move to `run sed -i '1036s/shachaf: //' quotes
00:42:58 <augur> Phantom_Hoover! :o
00:43:39 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: a conservative historian. "The 19th-century empire undeniably pioneered free trade, free capital movements and, with the abolition of slavery, free labour. " etc
00:44:26 <tromp_> you mean niels ferguson?
00:45:02 <Bike> relatedly i just found a "Politically Incorrect Guide" to the british empire
00:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover> he's married to a former editor of the daily mail apparently
00:45:28 <Bike> advertising such unknown facts on the cover as that they ended the slave trade and fought nazis once!!
00:45:37 <Bike> they stood alone
00:48:57 <Bike> There's a lot of subnational kingdoms in African countries, especially the west I think.
00:49:17 <Fiora> shachaf: I hope the suggestion isn't too terrible
00:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: i note that niall ferguson is a scotsman who has essentially dedicated his life to making the english look good
00:50:14 <Bike> what do you think he thinks of the scottish excursion in panama
00:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have to ask him, i don't want to go anywhere near such a twisted mindset
00:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile meanwhile: christ, timothy mcveigh was annoying
00:51:22 <Bike> "Iceland, invaded in 1940 by the British after the neutral nation refused to enter the war on the Allies side" er what
00:51:32 <Bike> what, the bomber?
00:51:35 <elliott> holy shit it's raining a lot
00:51:47 <elliott> we should have invaded switzerland too
00:51:52 <elliott> they're like 10x more annoying than iceland imo
00:52:06 <Bike> the US semi-accidentally bombed them a few times
00:52:18 <elliott> "but we still hate you..."
00:52:54 <Bike> "Initial British aims were to destroy all landing grounds (blue) and secure key harbours (red). Due to transportation problems it was more than a week before troops arrived in the north of the country." that must have been an awkward week
00:53:35 <Bike> "American forces relieved the British a year later, although their country was still officially a non-belligerent. " this is so dumb. how is everything about this so dumb
00:53:49 <Bike> "British: 1 killed (suicide)"
00:54:54 <Bike> "Much of the operational planning was conducted en route. The force was supplied with few maps, most of poor quality, with one of them having been drawn from memory. No one in the expedition was fully fluent in the Icelandic language"
00:55:54 <Bike> "On 3 May 1940, the 2nd Royal Marine Battalion in Bisley, Surrey, received orders from London to be ready to move on two hours notice for an unknown destination. The battalion had only been activated the month before." is this even real
00:56:10 <Bike> let's just send our least competent marines
00:56:13 <Bike> to invade the country.
00:56:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i '1036s/shachaf: //' quotes
00:57:07 <Bike> bahaha they sent a dispatch in plaintext so they all knew they were going to iceland despite it being super secret
00:57:34 <Bike> "One of the newly recruited marines committed suicide en route. The voyage was otherwise uneventful."
00:57:51 <elliott> Bike: are we sure this wasn't just an elaborate plan to get rid of the most useless team
00:58:13 <elliott> "oh yeah, you're going to a really remote place, uh... iceland. it's iceland. here's a map I drew"
00:58:41 <Bike> they flew a recon plane over reykjavik before they landed
00:58:47 <Bike> iceland had no planes at the time. STEALTH
00:59:25 <elliott> did iceland even have like
00:59:58 <Bike> Uncomfortable with the crowd, Consul Shepherd turned to the Icelandic police. "Would you mind ... getting the crowd to stand back a bit, so that the soldiers can get off the destroyer?" he asked. "Certainly," came the reply.
01:00:05 <Bike> elliott: phantom hoover's got it.
01:00:23 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Iceland_Export_Treemap.jpg wooow
01:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: come on you have to know about cpos
01:00:35 <Bike> One Icelander snatched a rifle from a marine and stuffed a cigarette in it. He then threw it back to the marine and told him to be careful with it.
01:00:39 <kmc> these treemaps are the best
01:00:51 <kmc> and Phantom_Hoover has it right
01:00:57 <kmc> the brits invaded iceland so the germans couldn't
01:01:05 <kmc> and the icelanders were more or less fine with this, at least as I heard
01:01:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: complete partial orders!!
01:01:08 <Bike> advanced military strategy there
01:01:22 <Bike> Fiora: aircraft, spaceships, and launch vehicles
01:01:29 <elliott> okay but why would the germans invade iceland. why would anyone invade iceland
01:01:32 <kmc> where's EVE Online in this map
01:01:38 <Fiora> kmc: I think it's only physical products
01:01:39 <kmc> it is a few % of their economy
01:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> if the germans invaded iceland they would use them as breeding stock for an army of aryan supermen
01:01:51 <Fiora> otherwise you'd include, like, financial services and stuff I guess
01:01:52 <Bike> elliott: well they already invaded norway
01:01:54 <elliott> 12% orthopedic appliances, including crutches......
01:01:56 <Fiora> ... which I imagine would be a lot less after 2008 <.<
01:02:03 <Bike> the germans were just invading everything
01:02:09 <hagb4rd> i wonder why they don't export fish
01:02:10 <Fiora> I'm guessing a lot of the thihngs on that chart are literally like, one company
01:02:15 <Fiora> because iceland is 300,000 people or so
01:02:15 <Bike> and the brits were all SHIT let's get in on this
01:02:21 <kmc> hagb4rd: fish are a big component of that chart...
01:02:23 <kmc> look at the top
01:02:24 <elliott> iceland is sort of the best
01:02:27 <elliott> it's like a little toy company
01:02:32 <kmc> <3 iceland, I should go back
01:02:37 <Bike> btw this is apparently the only time iceland has been invaded by anything
01:02:44 <Bike> also: this is how iceland became independent
01:02:51 <Bike> it was part of denmark but denmark got nazi'd
01:02:55 <kmc> Bike: oh man googling 'iceland' is always a good idea
01:02:56 <kmc> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-17/in-iceland-an-app-to-warn-if-your-hookup-is-a-relative
01:02:59 <Sgeo> I may need to buy a good laptop ASAP
01:03:05 <elliott> i just get the feeling that everyone in iceland must be a really nice person
01:03:05 <Bike> and the iceland government was like "well, nvm that king dude, let's just chill on our own"
01:03:09 <elliott> because how could you not be
01:03:09 <kmc> Sgeo: want recommendations? price range?
01:03:28 <shachaf> i want both recommendations and a price range plz
01:03:35 <Fiora> iceland is just like the most adorable country
01:03:37 <Sgeo> I think I'll just buy the same model that I'm borrowing from Apex
01:03:51 <Bike> The app includes an “incest-prevention alarm,” says Arnar Freyr Adalsteinsson, one of the developers.
01:03:59 <elliott> i love the idea of a country being so small you have to constantly worry about incest
01:04:18 <elliott> The app, called IslendingaApp—yes, Iceland App
01:04:24 <elliott> because iceland is too small to need more than one app
01:04:27 <Bike> the only app you ever need in iceland
01:04:34 <Sgeo> Needs to be able to run Eclipse (or other good Java IDE, but at this point I'm used to Eclipse) smoothly, along with multiple Spring MVC applications and AngularJS pages
01:04:46 <Bike> The British forces began their operations in Reykjavík by posting a guard at the post office and attaching a flier to the door. The flier explained in broken Icelandic that British forces were occupying the city and asked for cooperation in dealing with local Germans.
01:04:56 <Bike> good notification of invasion
01:05:00 <kmc> do you know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlpiri_people#Kinship
01:05:17 <Bike> ooh i love kinship systems
01:05:22 <kmc> tldr: the Warlpiri have a complicated notion of kinship which corresponds to the order 8 dihedral group
01:05:34 <elliott> and declared he was taking over like a small british island? he lived there
01:05:39 <Bike> kmc: beautiful
01:05:40 <elliott> and a policeman came up to him and he was sitting on a bench
01:05:43 <elliott> and asked him to put down the gun
01:05:50 <Bike> also i have no idea what this says
01:05:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you know this
01:05:59 <Bike> like i've seen kinship diagrams but... this isn't one
01:06:06 <kmc> found this by googling 'dihedral group incest'
01:06:11 <kmc> best search ever
01:06:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: great, find me a link
01:06:30 <Jafet> Is this what they mean by group action
01:06:33 -!- conehead has joined.
01:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sark#One-person_invasion_attempt
01:06:42 <Bike> okay i GIS'd "warlpiri kinship" and i got a bunch of matrices?? help
01:06:45 <elliott> kmc: note to self: being a Warlpiri is way too much work
01:06:56 <elliott> okay everybody click Phantom_Hoover's link
01:07:03 <Bike> https://www.callmedrrob.com/wp-content/uploads/Advanced/Warlpiri/MotherAndFather.jpg i'm sorry are those kets
01:07:23 <kmc> i found this http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/3.2/fig1.gif
01:07:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it's all fun and games until you shoot a cop
01:07:48 <Bike> television's hermeunetic circles
01:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, in this case he would then have shot all the cops
01:08:10 <Bike> " Splitting the Atom of Kinship: Towards an understanding of the symbolic economy of the Warlpiri fire ceremony"
01:08:16 <elliott> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/lost-world-the-last-days-of-feudal-sark-421545.html
01:08:20 <elliott> this probably has a better version of the same story
01:08:28 <elliott> and an image of... something
01:08:38 -!- augur_ has joined.
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01:08:44 <Bike> personally i like how kinship is so crazy anthropologists just use series of letters
01:08:44 <Fiora> "The eight subsections are interrelated in a pattern known in group theory as the order 8 dihedral group, D4."
01:08:50 -!- shachaf has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
01:08:52 <Bike> you don't say cousin you say father's sister's daughter
01:08:55 <hagb4rd> the guys at sealand had these m60 brownings once
01:08:55 -!- shachaf_ has quit (Changing host).
01:08:56 -!- shachaf_ has joined.
01:08:59 <Bike> which is like... FZD
01:09:05 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf.
01:09:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:09:47 <Bike> "The U.S. Navy remained at Naval Air Station Keflavik until 2006." ?????
01:10:00 <Bike> elliott: "Although the British action was to forestall any risk of a German invasion, none had been planned. However, after the British invasion, the Germans prepared a plan to intervene,"
01:10:16 <elliott> "wait the brits want iceland??? it must be good"
01:10:34 <Bike> apparently it went about as well as operation sealion, which is the best naval invasion in history if you didn't know
01:11:40 <elliott> To the deafening sound of no traffic - transport on Sark is restricted to tractors, bicycles and horse and cart
01:11:45 <Bike> "The 40,000 US marines stationed in Iceland outnumbered all adult men in Iceland at the time."
01:11:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is even with sark
01:12:16 <Fiora> "The guns started to fire in the second week of August 1940 and were not silenced until September 1944. They caused 3,059 alerts, 216 civilian deaths, and damage to 10,056 premises in the Dover area and much damage to shipping – perhaps the worst direct consequences of the plan outside the Battle of Britain, and the only part that worked."
01:12:24 <oerjan> <elliott> okay but why would the germans invade iceland. why would anyone invade iceland <-- for the same reason they invaded norway, lots of coast line with direct access to the atlantic.
01:12:32 <elliott> At the end of The Avenue there's a two-cell jail, more accustomed to holding tourists without a bed for the night than criminals. It is empty. There was a break-in at Sark's only jewellers, Rang, last summer, but it was all rather inept; the drunken offender left the island's voluntary policeman a series of clues, not least the string of jewels trailing back to his hotel.
01:12:34 <Bike> There was large-scale interaction between young Icelandic women and soldiers, which came to be known as Ástandið ("the condition" or "situation") in Icelandic.
01:12:44 <elliott> guys sark is literally a comedy
01:12:58 <Bike> Fiora: you got to the part about going over the channel on barges with no air support, right
01:13:32 <Fiora> Bike: it was interesting how like, the air force was convinced they were not enough to defend an invasion, without naval superiority
01:13:55 <Fiora> and then like, ~2-3 years later, the exact opposite happened?
01:14:07 <Bike> maybe the air force just wanted more planes
01:14:15 <elliott> At such moments, a Sarkee would be well within his rights to invoke the ancient statute book and sound the Clameur de Haro. An islander who feels he has been wronged or assaulted in some way can drop to one knee, throw his hat to the ground, recite the Lord's Prayer in Norman French and then say: "Haro, haro, haro! A mon aide mon Prince, on me fait tort!" (Help me, my prince, someone does me wrong). The assailant must immediately cease what he is do
01:14:22 <elliott> It would have been wonderful to see Dermot use the "Haro", but it was unlikely; the custom was last enacted in Sark in 1970, during a dispute over a garden wall.
01:14:28 <elliott> if you are not reading this article on sark........ why not............
01:14:46 <Bike> you make a good case elliott
01:14:54 <Fiora> stop it I am laughing at work (no actually keep going)
01:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> for fuck's sake wikipedia why can you not just describe this kinship system in group-theoretic terms
01:15:32 <Bike> almost like kinship systems are generally of more interest to anthropologists than mathematicians
01:16:39 <elliott> Only Prince Charles, though, has slept at the Seigneurie - to avoid a diplomatic dispute between Jersey and Guernsey over where the prince should stay.
01:16:46 <elliott> thank god we have sark for important things like this
01:17:15 <oerjan> <elliott> The app, called IslendingaApp—yes, Iceland App <-- pretty sure that must mean icelander, not iceland
01:17:54 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/9cda7793b750050b45a9dc69101c2179/tumblr_mkv4eaUvGF1qgcra2o1_500.gif internet
01:19:06 <Bike> "The most recent [British invasion of Vietnam] – from 1945 to 1946 – saw the British fight a campaign for control of the country against communists, " it's a bit sad to see the news oversimplify these things
01:19:30 <elliott> these things: literally every thing
01:20:38 <Bike> wait they're literally feudal?
01:22:07 <Bike> "its own set of laws based on Norman law"
01:22:45 <elliott> If one needed further proof of the village atmosphere on Sark, one need only know that the last major uprising was instigated by Beaumont's mother, the Dame herself. In her old age (she died at 90), Mrs Hathaway pressed for battery-powered buggies to be permitted on the island for those without mobility.
01:22:50 <elliott> "God, yes, there was almost a revolution over that," says the Seigneur. "She said she couldn't get around any more without one, but Chief Pleas were up in arms. I think they thought it was one step on the road to having cars."
01:23:07 <elliott> haha the guy voted to sack himself
01:24:09 <kmc> Sgeo: how much can you afford to spend on your laptop?
01:24:15 <kmc> and do you want it to be particularly small or something
01:24:49 <kmc> i've always been a fan of ThinkPads; the T series is the middle of the road, not too huge, reasonably powerful, not too expensive
01:25:02 <elliott> so this literally happened because the barclay brothers decided that sark sucked
01:25:13 <kmc> Sgeo: the most important thing is to load it up with as much RAM as you can
01:25:34 <Sgeo> Don't care about particularly small. Not sure how much I can afford. At the end of the week I _should_ have two weeks worth of money, but a good amount of that is supposed to go to regular living expenses
01:25:39 <Sgeo> Although I guess this too counts
01:25:39 <Fiora> yeah, picking a laptop depends a lot on what you need to do with it, I think
01:25:55 <Fiora> like I picked mine based on weight and having-a-good-graphics-card
01:25:56 <kmc> Sgeo: usually RAM is much much cheaper if you buy it from amazon or newegg and install it yourself (which is very easy, if it's something you haven't done)
01:26:13 <Sgeo> Any thoughts on EliteBooks?
01:26:16 <Fiora> though I did kind of splurge <.<
01:26:18 <kmc> I have the X1 Carbon which unfortunately is an 'ultrabook' with soldered-on RAM, so you can't do that :/
01:26:20 <Sgeo> Because that's what the Apex one is
01:26:26 <kmc> but I really like it overall
01:26:51 <kmc> also there's a lot of random crap labeled "ThinkPad" these days, so you can't take it as much as a mark of quality as used to be the case
01:26:59 <kmc> but certain machines are still very good
01:27:08 <Bike> wow they have a seneschal
01:27:23 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_space_bats oh my gosh
01:27:36 <Fiora> "using it to debunk the possibility of a successful Operation Sea Lion by saying the only way it could be successful was if alien space bats helped the Nazis."
01:27:52 <elliott> Fiora: a "gaming laptop" type thing?
01:27:54 <kmc> Sgeo: I don't know how much is arbitrary groupthink, but most of my peers think the only non-Apple laptop worth buying is a ThinkPad
01:28:04 <kmc> these are mainly programmer types
01:28:07 <Fiora> elliott: it was about the lightest one I could find with reasonable specs
01:28:11 <elliott> (in terms of how good they are at the actual laptop part)
01:28:15 <Bike> are you serious
01:28:20 <Fiora> i.e. 1080p glossy screen, i7, 7970M
01:28:28 <Bike> Fiora: yeah i know about alien space bats, kinkajou used to talk about 'em
01:28:32 <elliott> (that said this laptop has a screen and a keyboard and mouse plugged into it)
01:28:39 <elliott> (so I'm not one to talk really)
01:28:49 <elliott> (p.s. it is also terrible I really need to buy a new computer)
01:28:56 <Fiora> that said, I think that the heavier ones tend to be better if you can deal with their weight? since they tend to have better cooling
01:29:10 <Fiora> like I have a friend with an alienware laptop, she loves it, it's like 12 pounds or something though -_-
01:29:15 <Bike> "Taxes will go up because suddenly people will want to be paid for doing the island's work."
01:29:16 <kmc> Sgeo: I highly recommend the X1 Carbon if you want thin + light + good screen and are willing to pay for it
01:29:21 <kmc> (it has a higher resolution than the X230 or whatever)
01:29:30 <kmc> also a good battery that charges very quickly
01:29:45 <elliott> Fiora: but I mean, the same applies to desktops :P
01:29:54 <elliott> they're just really big laptops! and have great cooling
01:29:55 <Fiora> true XD but I guess one doesn't normally think of their weight too much
01:30:01 <elliott> but particularly poor btatery life and weight
01:30:18 <kmc> yeah my UPS only lasts a few minutes
01:30:29 <elliott> how to build a laptop: tie a keyboard and a monitor to a desktop with tape
01:30:35 <kmc> google's servers all have a 12V battery inside, or so they say
01:30:37 <shachaf> does the Asus Zenbook U500VZ exist yet
01:30:39 <elliott> and attach it to a battery power supply
01:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, this is because your japanese cartoons have made you PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMPOTENT
01:30:58 <Sgeo> That... is much more expensive than the ~700 that I saw around EliteBook
01:31:00 <kmc> elliott: http://improveverywhere.com/2008/02/25/mobile-desktop/
01:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is this science
01:31:12 -!- mnoqy has joined.
01:31:34 <Bike> "Some Sark residents have complained that the new system is not democratic and have compared the powers the new law granted to the Seneschal, an unelected member whose term the new law extended to the duration of his natural life," i see you're doing well with this democracy thing
01:31:40 -!- mnoqy has changed nick to monqy.
01:31:41 <Sgeo> On the one hand, I _need_ this laptop, on the other, I almost don't want to spend money on work
01:31:48 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:31:49 <kmc> Sgeo: well, can you get them to pay for it
01:31:53 -!- monqy has changed nick to mnoqy.
01:32:02 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: or because of a combination of lack of testosterone, size, lack of exercise, and um... okay that's about it but
01:32:03 <mnoqy> shachaf: someone sent messages to the wrong nick
01:32:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: hang on hang on hang on
01:32:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you implying it was me
01:32:22 <elliott> lack of testosterone caused by the animes (technical term)
01:32:23 <Bike> don't listen to fiora, she's beefy as hell
01:32:36 <mnoqy> shachaf: but whoever it was!!! watch out
01:32:37 <Bike> she watched Angel Cop once and knocked out one of my teeth
01:32:46 <Fiora> I have no idea what angel cop is <.<
01:32:50 <Sgeo> Cablevision doesn't consider me a permanent employee, and Apex... well, they're not exactly just giving me this laptop and buying me a new one.
01:33:06 <elliott> are you not considered a permanent employee because you are employed by the recruitment firm instead
01:33:07 <Sgeo> erm, buying themselves a new one
01:33:18 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpwJbLLivU you're missing out.
01:33:28 <Sgeo> My ID card says "Consultant"
01:34:00 <Fiora> phantom hoover my bag is already like 7kg
01:34:34 <mnoqy> is "bag" slang here
01:34:47 <Bike> it's slang for "bag".
01:34:51 <Sgeo> Bags are just one or more items on the ground.
01:34:52 <mnoqy> bag of...animes???
01:34:58 <Fiora> um. it's a bag. it's purple. it contains a laptop and a bunch of other stuff
01:34:59 <Bike> Bag of animes.
01:35:07 <kmc> bag of amines?
01:35:09 <Fiora> "messenger bag" might be the technical term
01:35:09 <kmc> yep, that's me
01:35:12 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I've played Eternal-Lands. Should I pick it back up again?
01:35:20 <Fiora> kmc: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Anime
01:35:34 <elliott> i hate when i turn on my speakers
01:35:38 <elliott> and a tab has been playing noise for hours
01:35:46 <Sgeo> I think I kept getting perpetually dismayed by how long it would take to start doing magic
01:36:11 <kmc> elliott: when I was in SF i had a startup idea (I swear, they put something in the water) for a company that would sell ads that start playing 20 min after you open a tab
01:36:13 <mnoqy> soln have fewer tabs
01:36:22 <mnoqy> soln block all sources of tab music
01:36:33 <mnoqy> soln browser doesnt support music
01:36:36 <shachaf> kmc: hey have you considered moving to SF and working for a non web startup
01:36:36 <Fiora> kmc: I think that might get you lynched
01:36:44 <mnoqy> soln dont use computer
01:36:47 <Sgeo> Aren't there builds of Chromium that show a speaker icon in tabs that are playing sound?
01:36:59 <elliott> theres an extension for it but im too lazy to install it
01:37:18 <mnoqy> it probably takes more effort to complain than find an extension
01:37:26 <shachaf> elliott: I once had an ad that beat that.
01:37:28 <mnoqy> u know, like, emotionally
01:37:31 <shachaf> In fact it was the worst ad of all.
01:37:46 <shachaf> It was some flash thing which sent cockroaches crawling all over the web page.
01:37:54 <Sgeo> "Here you won't have to compete with Chinese farming bots. Our farming bots are from all over the world, not only China. Just kidding."
01:38:03 <elliott> mnoqy: it costs no emotional effort for me to complain
01:38:06 <elliott> maybe you're just bad at complaining
01:39:31 <elliott> heeelp i can't find the tab
01:39:35 <elliott> maybe it'll just keep making noise forever
01:39:42 <hagb4rd> im sure you can attach event handling method listening to the righ webkit-audio property
01:39:52 <kmc> shachaf: who should i work for in SF
01:39:56 <kmc> or anywhere
01:40:04 <mnoqy> hagb4rd: probably that takes more effort than getting the extension
01:40:13 <elliott> mnoqy: i have an audio-producing tab i want though
01:40:16 <mnoqy> heck, considering elliott's tab count it probably takes more effort to search for it normally
01:40:31 <hagb4rd> maybe.. on the other side it would be a nidce excursion to these fields
01:40:34 <mnoqy> elliott: well it shows an icon and then you can eliminate -most- tabs
01:40:47 <elliott> my tabs are too small for the icon to show though
01:40:58 <shachaf> are you still working at that web startup
01:41:04 <mnoqy> it colors your tab stub and then you can
01:41:06 <kmc> shachaf: no
01:41:24 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Dark-Sky_Association huh, that's kinda cool
01:41:41 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
01:41:50 <Fiora> Bike: makes me sad about the sky here ._.
01:41:52 <elliott> monqy's had enough of my shit
01:41:58 <Fiora> I can see like. 10 stars on a good day .____>
01:42:06 <Fiora> (er, good night. but.)
01:42:06 <Bike> it's pretty dark out here
01:42:13 <Fiora> the sky is maroon here at night
01:42:18 <Bike> i'm shit at astronomy though
01:42:23 <Bike> so it's just a bunch of dots?
01:42:27 <kmc> i miss the desert
01:42:30 <Fiora> I'm probably terrible but at least it's just. pretty
01:42:47 <Fiora> I think the last time I saw the milky way was when I visited some relatives out in the country a few years ago...
01:42:50 <kmc> in the desert?
01:43:00 <elliott> i don't think i've seen a proper sky ever
01:43:07 <elliott> and i live in a sort of rural town
01:43:08 <hagb4rd> kmc: did you kill somebody?
01:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the stars here are fairly visible, but clear nights are very rare
01:43:56 <kmc> shachaf: I was pissed off all the time at work. one of my coworkers was super annoying and there were a few other major annoyances, and the rest of it was fine but there was nothing really awesome to keep me going
01:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a girl in london in my halls who was like "oh the sky here is so much clearer"
01:44:12 <shachaf> kmc: Sounds like #haskell.
01:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> note that this is in the middle of the midlands conurbation
01:44:22 <kmc> heh yes maybe
01:44:23 <elliott> i think it's my fault for mocking kmc's startup
01:44:29 <elliott> that must have set it all off
01:45:17 <kmc> i'm not very good at getting along with people
01:45:22 <kmc> but also this person is widely agreed to be annoying
01:45:34 <kmc> but maybe I'm not as good as others at getting past it
01:46:42 <shachaf> Sorry it didn't work out. :-(
01:47:21 <Fiora> I'm not sure that 'not getting along with people' is the same thing as 'being bad at tolerating toxic people'?
01:48:28 <kmc> well this is hardly the only example of not getting along with people
01:48:39 <kmc> i think in general, I hold grudges longer than I should, and don't give people enough slack
01:48:43 <kmc> (that includes myself of course)
01:49:26 <kmc> it's fine to move on if there was no particular reason to stay
01:49:27 <Bike> "Wherever we find Americans we will kill them, but we don't have any connection with the Boston Explosions," Ihsan [a Taliban spokesperson] said.
01:50:14 <kmc> i have the luxury to insist on being happy at work, which most people don't get
01:50:19 <kmc> and i feel kind of guilty about using it, but oh well
01:50:47 <kmc> the next thing I do will either be socially useful or will make mad cash that I can give away
01:51:02 <kmc> actually that's sort of how I got fired, using my (genuine) unhappiness as leverage to get more money so I could give it away
01:51:15 <elliott> kmc: you should write this coq thing for me
01:51:18 <elliott> you will become rich and famous
01:51:37 <Bike> that's... quite a way to be fired :(
01:52:23 <kmc> i mean, I understand thier position, in an infant company you can't afford to spend infinite resources helping people get along
01:52:25 <kmc> they did have the money though
01:52:29 <elliott> kmc: i promise to never fire you btw
01:52:42 <kmc> elliott: you're distorting the free market!!
01:53:00 <elliott> well coq is french and they're basically communists
01:53:10 <kmc> i wonder if i'm oversharing... stupid moderately priced scotch whisk[e]y
01:53:21 <elliott> you are currently at 0.1 millisgeos
01:53:33 <kmc> i think i've shared more about, say, my sex life than Sgeo has
01:53:37 <Fiora> geez this isn't oversharing, you're allowed to talk about your life and how you feel
01:53:55 <kmc> maybe I missed a bunch of lurid sgeo-details
01:53:56 <Fiora> ... I didn't mean sgeo, I meant kmc <.<
01:54:02 <shachaf> Fiora: In a public logged channel?
01:54:12 <shachaf> wait, is Sgeo drunk all the time
01:54:22 <Fiora> if anything it'd be kind of nice if there was more of this. like. feelings. and stuff.
01:54:37 <elliott> inb4 Phantom_Hoover diagnores Fiora with more anime-related diseases
01:54:44 <kmc> engaging feelings module.... [ ok ]
01:54:49 <kmc> insmod feelings.ko
01:55:21 <kmc> still hard to read that not as 'amine'
01:55:21 <elliott> kmc: i think you just won the Making It About Programming prize
01:55:54 <Fiora> you're wonderful okay
01:56:01 <kmc> thanks I think :)
01:56:11 <elliott> i think irc needs real italics
01:56:18 <elliott> you can do bold but have to resort to // for italicisation, truly awful
01:56:30 <shachaf> elliott: um your terminal is the messed up one
01:56:39 <elliott> kmc: hey do *you* know about cpos
01:56:45 <kmc> do i know about cops...
01:57:00 <elliott> kmc is always on the lookout for cops (the joke is drugs)
01:57:14 * kmc has never been arrested
01:57:33 <Sgeo> How much have I talked about my sex life
01:57:35 <Sgeo> Not much, I think
01:57:38 <shachaf> kmc is drinking 220 proof whiskey
01:57:47 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe more than other people, but
01:57:58 <kmc> shachaf: :O
01:58:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: no one else has talked about it more than you, hth
02:00:21 <elliott> shachaf: have I asked you whether you know about cpos yet
02:00:30 <Sgeo> Does that even count as sex life? Does it count as sex life if there's no sex, never has been sex, etc?
02:01:13 <kmc> what's kt-at
02:01:39 <elliott> god dammit there has to be someone who knows about cpos
02:02:18 <shachaf> elliott: i don't know very much about cpos "sry"
02:02:38 <shachaf> elliott: have you considered asking conal
02:02:46 <shachaf> i bet conal knows things??
02:03:30 <elliott> question has to be world-shattering to ask conal it
02:03:41 <shachaf> conal more like coolnal because he's cool
02:04:01 <kmc> what about a cocone
02:04:09 <kmc> cocoa-coated cocones
02:04:14 <shachaf> kmc: there really is such a thing as a cocone in category theory, hth
02:04:25 <kmc> 'thats the joke'.xbm
02:04:59 <Jafet> Is there a category theorist named caine
02:05:01 <elliott> the\ joke\ is\ drugs\ again.htm
02:05:09 <kmc> 'that'"'"'s the joke'.xbm
02:05:14 <kmc> imo the best quoting
02:05:47 <kmc> $'that\x27s the joke'
02:06:06 <kmc> the great thing about web development is that there are so many kinds of quoting to choose from
02:06:08 <shachaf> are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the party in Sgeo's pants
02:06:11 <kmc> each shittier than the rest
02:06:23 <kmc> there's a party in my pants and invites will be strictly rationed based on Klout score
02:06:26 <Jafet> kmc: it's like russian roulette except there are n-1 bullets
02:06:33 <kmc> Jafet: yeah
02:07:17 <shachaf> russian roulette with n+1 bullets
02:07:17 <elliott> wtf churchill won a nobel prize in literature
02:07:19 <Gregor> Discovered that the original SimCity was released as F/OSS (under the name "Micropolis")
02:07:28 <Gregor> Shortly after, discovered that the original SimCity was sort of a shitty game.
02:07:38 <kmc> russian roulette with ε₀ bullets
02:07:39 <shachaf> Gregor: what are you doing voiced
02:07:55 <Gregor> shachaf: Fear not my voice, voiceless peon.
02:08:00 <shachaf> kmc: do you know anything about inaccessible cardinals
02:08:09 <kmc> shachaf: no ask lexande
02:08:21 <shachaf> lexande never seems to want to talk about them
02:08:23 <elliott> does lexande know about cpos
02:08:29 <shachaf> maybe because i'm clueless and don't even know the right questions to ask
02:08:30 <kmc> i guess ε₀ is an inaccessible cardinal? 'not my department'
02:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, that's what they are when they're picking a new pope right
02:08:33 <kmc> elliott: quite possibly
02:08:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: too late for that joke sorry
02:08:45 <kmc> #popejokes
02:08:45 <shachaf> lexande knows a lot of things
02:08:56 <shachaf> hey remember when lexande was in this channel?
02:09:33 <shachaf> elliott: why did churchill win that
02:09:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31089
02:09:54 <kmc> because there was no nobel prize in killing nazis
02:10:10 <shachaf> well maybe there should be a nobel copeace prize
02:10:19 <kmc> `run time true
02:10:20 <HackEgo> \ real0m0.001s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.000s
02:11:20 <elliott> copumpkin: so does pumpkin know about cpos then
02:11:21 <shachaf> copumpkin: you know kn0thing?
02:11:29 <kmc> here is kno where
02:12:19 <shachaf> elliott: are you sure cpos even exist................
02:12:22 <elliott> copumpkin: well you're useless then
02:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: do you know about cpos
02:12:37 <shachaf> imo copumpkin is not useless
02:13:08 <shachaf> copumpkin is one of the best people in this channel
02:13:16 <shachaf> according to the cpo of being a good person
02:14:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: does cpoumpking know about cpos
02:15:47 <oerjan> <kmc> i guess ε₀ is an inaccessible cardinal? 'not my department' <-- no
02:16:06 <kmc> well I guess it's an ordinal
02:16:20 <elliott> aim high with your statements, kmc
02:16:30 <elliott> I am 60% confident ε₀ is two unicode codepoints
02:16:31 <shachaf> no ε₀ isn't inaccessible is it????
02:16:38 <shachaf> oh that's what oerjan said
02:16:43 <kmc> elliott: you missed the 20 invisible zero-width non joiners I put in there
02:16:48 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaccessible_Island
02:17:06 <Jafet> Cartesian closed CPO C³PO
02:18:10 <Fiora> I didn't even know that part of the atlantic like, had islands at all
02:18:20 <kmc> which part?
02:18:35 <kmc> oh copumpkin's link
02:18:52 <Fiora> "No land mammals, reptiles, amphibians, butterflies, or snails have recently been found at Inaccessible."
02:19:17 <Bike> Wanna hear a fun Darwin fact?
02:19:35 <Bike> On the Beagle they went over to some rock in the middle of the Atlantic and looked all the birds there. No moss or anything.
02:19:49 <Bike> Darwin commented that the birds were stupid and he could have killed as many as he wanted with his hammer.
02:21:16 <kmc> bouvet island also seems to be quite the middle of nowhere
02:21:29 <kmc> don't know if it's less accessible than Inaccessible
02:21:33 <Bike> "Both are of a tame and stupid disposition, and are so unaccustomed to visitors, that I could have killed any number of them with my geological hammer."
02:21:47 <kmc> perhaps Inaccessible Island is where we banish all the developers who don't write accessible software
02:22:03 <Bike> http://honeymooney.com/world/logbook/images/65-St_Paul_rocks.jpg Kind of shitty as islands go, I think.
02:22:30 <Fiora> ocean ridges are kind of amazing
02:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo continues to be weird, meanwhile my favourite island is rockall
02:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> if only due to the slight phonetic similarity with 'fuck all'
02:23:02 <Sgeo> Guava is a library for Java
02:23:12 <Sgeo> A lot of things like an option type, a bidirectional map
02:23:21 <Sgeo> (The latter of which I just looked for, and found in Guava)
02:23:28 <Bike> " It is the only location on Atlantic Ocean where the abyssal mantle is exposed above sea level" oh, that's kinda cool.
02:23:41 <elliott> kmc: i have a mosh feature request
02:23:51 <elliott> show a random number of asterisks as you type your password
02:24:01 <elliott> so i don't expect to see no feedback as i type it and instead type it into an untrusted window instead
02:24:09 <elliott> oh i guess that's ssh's fault
02:24:13 <shachaf> elliott: mosh doesn't have you type your password, it's -- yes.
02:24:22 <elliott> okay ssh feature request but kmc should implement it
02:24:30 <elliott> thus solving all our problems
02:24:32 <Sgeo> Wait, if mosh doesn't have you type a password, then... huh?
02:24:33 <shachaf> elliott: You could use ssh-agent...
02:24:39 <Sgeo> Does Mosh require a key?
02:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> apparently http://dungeonoverlord.wikia.com/wiki/Abyssal_Mantle
02:24:53 <shachaf> mosh-client and mosh-server use a secret key to communicate, yes.
02:24:55 <Bike> Fiora: It's an uplift from the mid-atlantic ridge iirc
02:24:57 <elliott> shachaf: I forget why I stopped using ssh-agent
02:25:04 <Bike> well, "if i understand correctly", more like
02:25:30 <Fiora> so like, most of the islands in that area aren't actual uplifts, but like, magma collecting or something?
02:25:42 <Bike> "Darwin was correct in noting that, unusually, these small islands were not volcanic, but were instead formed by a geologic uplift."
02:26:05 <Bike> the Abyss of course is what you call the ocean floor
02:26:19 <Bike> though it's usually like... a plain...
02:26:27 <Fiora> how... how does that even like work @_@ how does the ocean floor end up that high
02:27:03 <hagb4rd> isnt it even higher in the himalaya?
02:27:21 <Fiora> that's continental crust though isn't it?
02:27:25 <Fiora> like it's different or something
02:27:42 <Bike> Well, the mid-atlantic ridge is the mantle poking up through the gap in the plates, so to speak.
02:27:46 <kmc> the secretest key
02:28:00 <hagb4rd> parts of it was ocean floor too.. don't remember the exact height range
02:28:03 <Bike> The islets are made out of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentinite
02:28:13 <kmc> Sgeo: the 'mosh' wrapper script uses ssh to launch a mosh-server on the remote host, then launches a mosh-client locally with the same private key (communicated over ssh)
02:28:34 <kmc> this is good because it means Mosh itself doesn't need to do user authentication, it accept all auth methods supported by SSH, and it also doesn't need to do any public-key crypto
02:28:44 <Fiora> "Serpentinite has a significant amount of bound water, hence it contains abundant hydrogen atoms able to slow down neutrons by elastic collision (neutron thermalization process). Because of this serpentinite can be used as dry filler inside steel jackets in some designs of nuclear reactors." O_O
02:28:48 <Bike> oh, it's not even part of the ridge, it's uh...
02:28:52 <Bike> "An oceanic core complex (OCC), or megamullion, is a seabed geologic feature that forms a long ridge perpendicular to a mid-ocean ridge."
02:28:53 <kmc> also you don't need to install mosh as root
02:28:56 <kmc> you can just run it out of your homedir
02:29:09 <Bike> Fiora: pre-watered rock. i like it
02:29:27 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amotoki_ASPSP_Megamullion_En.jpg ah, here's a geologic map of the area
02:30:23 <Bike> Godzilla Mullion, part of the Parece Vela Rift in the Western Pacific Ocean between Japan and the Philippines was discovered in 2001. It is about 150 km long, about as large as the State of Delaware, and is the largest Ocean Core Complex in the world.
02:30:32 <Phantom_Hoover> iirc at the bottom of the kola borehole there was loads of it
02:30:35 <Bike> clearly hydrologic geologists are having fun with names
02:30:50 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: see, like, "common" -> "at the bottom of the deepest hole ever built"
02:32:40 <Fiora> Bike: well, like, silicate perovskites make up most of the earth, they're super common
02:32:48 <Fiora> but they're only present deeper than 650km XP
02:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> there's also stuff like solid solutions which are interesting
02:33:00 <Bike> so, common, but hard to get
02:33:09 <Bike> Fiora: i like how the article goes from inuit carvings to reactor shielding
02:33:17 <Fiora> also diamond anvil cells are so cool
02:33:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serpentinite_Walrus_2012.jpg frankly this is more impressive. it's a very impressive walrus
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02:33:45 <kmc> wow this hard cider tastes like caramel
02:33:46 <elliott> kmc: related: do you know of a good way to use/remember/whatever secure passwords
02:33:53 <kmc> it's cool bordering on disturbing
02:34:00 <kmc> elliott: secure in what sense
02:34:15 <shachaf> I should change my password scheme.
02:34:16 <Bike> what the heck, plants grow in dirt made of serpentine rocks
02:34:40 <Bike> "Unlike most ecosystems, in serpentine barrens there is less plant growth closer to a stream, due to toxic minerals in the water."
02:34:55 <kmc> life finds a way Bike
02:34:56 <elliott> kmc: I believe I am paying you to know the answer better than I do
02:35:05 <kmc> elliott: plz send bitcoins
02:35:27 <Bike> That's like the spookiest ecology thing I've heard of since devil's gardens.
02:35:31 <kmc> i'm already 60 days past payment due on this weapons grade plutonium
02:35:42 <elliott> Bike: are those gardens run by the devil himself
02:35:50 <elliott> kmc: ok but seriously what do you mean by secure in what sense
02:35:59 <kmc> Bike: what about the fungus growing inside the Chernobyl plant that metabolizes gamma radiation
02:36:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
02:36:12 <Bike> They're stands of trees where a particular kind of ant goes around killing all plants that aren't one particular species of tree the ant lives in.
02:36:13 <kmc> life finds a way
02:36:36 <Bike> Also they're in the Amazon, which is kind of really diverse, so it must be spooky.
02:36:41 <kmc> black molds and revelations
02:37:06 <Fiora> those things are so amazing *_*
02:37:09 <kmc> duuuude I'm going to have some fresh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hericium_erinaceus to eat soon
02:37:22 <Bike> life will find a way... to kill (this summer)
02:37:27 <Fiora> the story about how they got the first photos of the "elephant's foot" in the reactor sarcophagus is terrifying though
02:37:46 <Bike> you know what else is terrifying? "reactor sarcophagus"
02:38:00 <Fiora> just like. radiation so strong they had to take pictures of it -using a robot- around a mirror or something
02:38:16 <Fiora> because like, the radiation would knock out the robot
02:38:40 <elliott> ok so what is this about elephants
02:38:48 <elliott> which wikipedia link to i have to click to understand what Fiora is going on about
02:38:58 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo475gICWF1qcjl1to1_1280.gif
02:39:10 <Bike> What the fuck is that.
02:39:13 <elliott> en.wikipedia.org.tumblr.com
02:39:39 <Fiora> http://duckduckgrayduck.com/2012/06/06/if-you-were-to-look-at-this-in-person-you-would-die-instantly/
02:39:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Podzol.jpg "hm, how can i spice up this photograph of dirt"
02:39:43 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_(nuclear_reactor)#Chernobyl_accident
02:39:55 <Fiora> "They had to treat this blob like a real Medusa. The original wheeled camera they sent up to take pictures was destroyed by the radiation. "
02:40:07 <kmc> "Corium" aka "bulk material made from a melted reactor core"
02:40:22 <Bike> Fiora: reminds me of that american accident where the reactor jumped ten feet or whatever
02:41:01 <Bike> or rather the corpse recovery operation
02:41:04 <Fiora> they tried to take a sample of the corium in chernobyl but they couldn't find a way to chip a piece off
02:41:08 <Fiora> so they shot it with an ak-47
02:41:16 <kmc> hahaha \rainbow{RUSSIA}
02:42:04 <Bike> "lava-like fuel containing material" i think this is actually a more terrifying name than "corium"
02:42:37 * kmc is reminded that he lives a few blocks from one of the only remaining HEU reactors in the US
02:42:43 <Fiora> "Corium (and also highly irradiated uranium fuel) has an interesting property: spontaneous dust generation, or spontaneous self-sputtering of the surface. The alpha decay of isotopes inside the glassy structure causes Coulomb explosions, degrading the material and releasing submicron particles from its surface."
02:42:49 <Fiora> it literally makes its own dust
02:43:03 <kmc> how....... did they even discover that
02:43:24 <elliott> so wait how did they get the mirror there
02:43:30 <Fiora> "The corium undergoes degradation. The Elephant's Foot, hard and strong shortly after its formation, is now cracked enough that a glue-treated wad easily separated its top 1–2 centimeter layer."
02:43:31 <elliott> is it really like you can get within a hallway of it
02:43:39 <Fiora> I imagine they could like
02:43:40 <Fiora> put it on the end of a pole
02:43:43 <elliott> turn the corner AUUUUUUAUAUAUAUAAUUGH [drops dead]
02:43:57 <Bike> What I'm wondering is whether the mirror reflects radiation
02:43:58 <hagb4rd> the may attached it to the robot
02:43:59 <Fiora> like how you put in those really high ceiling lights
02:44:07 <Fiora> I think reflecting gamma and x-ray is kind of tricky
02:44:19 <elliott> hey how is fukushima these days
02:44:22 <Fiora> like, if you could reflect them that easily you wouldn't need shielding...?
02:44:38 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_optics
02:44:59 <hagb4rd> but how is radiation reflected with mirrors? does it only work for gamma-ray`?
02:45:28 <Bike> Fiora: see that just makes me imagine a reactor made out of mirrors and then when it fails the mirrors all break apart and all the radiation shoots out everywhere and um
02:46:00 <Jafet> I think that's called a bomb
02:47:42 <Fiora> "10,000 rem per hour" @___@
02:48:22 <Bike> isn't that enough to literally vaporize you
02:48:41 <Fiora> .... oh nevermind that was like. 20 years later. oh gosh it must have been insane right after
02:48:43 <elliott> It consists of nuclear fuel, fission products, control rods, structural materials from the affected parts of the reactor, products of their chemical reaction with air, water and steam, and, in case the reactor vessel is breached, molten concrete from the floor of the reactor room.
02:48:53 <elliott> the most hardcore material
02:50:51 <Fiora> 30,000 rem per hour @___@
02:51:10 <kmc> all melted together with some potato and onion
02:52:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chernobyl_lava_flow.jpg
02:52:46 <kmc> my drunk, radioactive kitchen
02:52:57 <Fiora> just add a little bit of U-238, some Pu-239... maybe a bit of U-234 and Sr-90...
02:53:01 <Jafet> kmc's finest yellow cake
02:53:04 <Fiora> and a daassshhh of Americium
02:53:23 <Bike> well, it's nice to know humans can just make lava
02:54:05 <elliott> all we have to do is build a gigantic fucking nuclear reactor and have it blow up
02:54:29 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Duncan-Hines-Classic-Yellow-Layer/dp/B0002IMS5K
02:54:37 <elliott> prank idea: do that somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Antarctica, wait for people to find it
02:54:48 <elliott> read the conspiracy theories and laugh
02:54:51 <kmc> "Obviously, the price is right -- so that's 1 star right there. And the convenience of super-saver delivery spares me I don't even know how many trips to Niger. That's another star. However, try as I might, I could never get this stuff to enrich to fully weapons-grade."
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02:55:56 <Bike> elliott: there are a lot of radioisotope plants in the arctic circle
02:56:19 <elliott> right but have any of them blown up
02:56:40 <Bike> THey don't really "blow up", but people rob materials from them sometimes
02:56:51 <Bike> good business decision, robbing radioactive rock
02:57:58 <Bike> oh, the half-lives are only like ninety years though, not enough for a good conspiracy
02:58:30 <Fiora> Bike: you could, like, intentionally enrich some materials so it looked like they had been decaying for 6000 years or something?
02:58:43 <Fiora> and then like, hide it in an egyptian tomb
02:59:09 <Bike> well there are those natural reactors near the african fault aren't there
02:59:17 <elliott> right I'm thinking like you build a massive eerie nuclear reactor complex
02:59:22 <elliott> antarctica is pretty big so this should be easy
02:59:26 <Fiora> that thing is kind of amazing
02:59:28 <elliott> maybe make it look as old as possible
02:59:30 <Jafet> This is best done with martian rock samples.
02:59:36 <elliott> put some scary warnings (maybe in languages that don't exist???)
02:59:41 <elliott> with awful safety practices
02:59:55 <elliott> then you just set the whole meltdown off and make it look as if there was a hasty evacuation and lots of panic and stuff
02:59:59 <Bike> "if the spirits begin to eat, insert these rods"
03:00:11 <Bike> that was supposed to be "heat" but that works too
03:00:27 <elliott> basically what I'm saying is
03:00:34 <elliott> get to work on producing real-life SCPs please??
03:02:33 <kmc> you've seen the work about making warnings for nuclear waste storage facilities
03:02:40 <kmc> that will still be understood 10,000 years from now
03:03:16 <elliott> if there was a fanclub for it I would join it
03:03:25 <shachaf> i bet they have pictures of humans on them
03:03:29 <elliott> I would also consider: using some of the demonstration images as album covers
03:03:33 <Bike> i think one of my favorite ancient ones is the weather drones
03:03:33 <Bike> where it starts by describing how these things that look like fairly normal 1980s aerial survey drones go around the earth broadcasting signals
03:03:33 <Bike> and then mentions that they were first found in the 1910s
03:04:05 <elliott> what i DEFINITELY NEED TO BE DOING is reading scps at 4 am
03:04:20 <elliott> Bike: i liked the one with the chord that would destroy the world despite it not making any sense
03:04:25 <Bike> unfortunately it's pretty fucking hard to predict language and cultural change, as evidenced by oracle bone script
03:04:29 <Bike> elliott: haha yeah
03:04:30 <elliott> the one where they extincted a whale species because it made one of the frequencies
03:04:38 <Bike> they were probably jerks anyway
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03:05:04 <Bike> 'course there's that other SCP where they commit actual genocide so they don't give a damn aboutu ethics
03:05:11 <mnoqy> im not really "into" scps but hsould i be?
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03:05:32 <elliott> mnoqy: imo some of them are pretty great
03:05:42 <elliott> and others are good, but then there are all the mediocre-to-bad ones
03:05:57 <Fiora> a few of the joke ones are really wonderful too
03:06:11 <elliott> i liked a few of the joke ones but i've forgotten them
03:06:20 <elliott> mnoqy: have you seen sam hughes' one. that one is "well-liked"
03:06:33 <shachaf> which sam hughes are we talkin' here
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03:06:38 <mnoqy> ive read like one ever and i forget what it was even about
03:06:39 <Fiora> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1638-j
03:06:46 <elliott> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-055
03:06:52 <elliott> sam hughes as in qntm.org sam hughes
03:06:52 <Fiora> I love the ones that are really meta, like, the SCP itself is written in a style related to the SCP
03:06:53 <shachaf> i bet it's the evil one "ie qntm"
03:07:26 <elliott> scp-055 isn't really creepy tho, but it has what we in the biz call a "good concept"
03:07:46 <Fiora> also the vending machine that serves random things.
03:07:50 <Fiora> from like, all kinds of parallel realities
03:08:15 <mnoqy> five (5) by five (5) by two point five (2.5)
03:08:40 <elliott> mnoqy: you can't break the style!!
03:09:15 <elliott> the best ones all work by the tedious writing style and illogical ordering (whereby you get the containment procedures before learning what it is) make the nature of it dawn on you slowly
03:09:34 <Bike> oh haha, 55 was qntm?
03:10:25 <Bike> i like the way the description is unsigned.
03:11:14 <elliott> it's either like HIV or LSD
03:12:07 <elliott> mnoqy: i should keep links to good scps so i can link people who ask about them...... unfortunately i haven't done so
03:12:26 <coppro> 55 is one of my favourites
03:12:30 <mnoqy> enumerate every scp
03:12:43 <mnoqy> then just go through them all
03:12:55 <mnoqy> maybe use "rating" as a huerusitc
03:12:58 <mnoqy> to order yr search'
03:13:21 <mnoqy> and stop looking after they consistently turn to 100%mediocre, then start again at the bottom for the crap ones and work back up
03:13:26 <elliott> i'm not even sure you can order them by rating
03:13:39 <mnoqy> if you list them all you can write down their ratings and then order them
03:15:08 <elliott> it's quarter tempting b/c i'd get to read all the good ones
03:15:22 <elliott> ¾ not tempting because i'd have to read a lot
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03:20:00 <shachaf> kmc: have you seen the film "the court jester"
03:20:35 <shachaf> if you like "that kind of thing"
03:22:17 <elliott> people who like this sort of thing will find it just the sort of thing they like?
03:23:14 <shachaf> hey i heard a good definition the other day
03:23:22 <shachaf> trust: the condition necessary for betrayal
03:26:16 <copumpkin> the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true
03:26:31 <shachaf> copumpkin knows ""what's up""
03:27:44 <shachaf> (Well, except that the vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison. The flagon with the dragon holds the brew that is true.)
03:29:11 <copumpkin> I just drank from the vessl with the pestle, thinking it held the brew that is true. I should have taken from the flagon with the dragon I guess, and now I shall meet my end from the pellet with the poison :( it was nice knowing you
03:29:45 <HackEgo> PdUrBiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:30:46 <copumpkin> only one way to find out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ9f2rnjB84
03:30:51 <oerjan> i'm sorry but pellet does not rhyme with poison hth
03:31:10 <shachaf> oerjan: it's not meant to rhyme just to alliterate hth
03:31:23 <kmc> hi pdurbin
03:31:36 <doesthiswork> where does the chalice from the palace fit in?
03:31:55 <shachaf> oerjan: well that one doesn't hth
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03:33:00 <doesthiswork> I don't think you need the disclaimer about irc.dal.net http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=DALnet
03:33:13 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zIWcCvQNqQ
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03:36:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: Oh, I got it wrong.
03:36:35 <shachaf> Somehow they moved the poison.
03:40:00 <shachaf> did you read that one story yet
03:40:07 <shachaf> i should probably stop bugging you about it
03:43:40 <copumpkin> but not if you stop bugging me about it
03:43:55 <copumpkin> but yeah, it is a tab that's still open
03:44:08 <copumpkin> and I usually get to those eventually cause I get sick of having a bunch of them open
03:44:25 <shachaf> I get sick of having a bunch of tabs open so I bookmark them all and then close them.
03:44:28 <shachaf> And then I never look at them again.
03:44:46 <shachaf> (Sometimes I do get to them.)
03:45:05 <shachaf> Do you have a tab open for my five dola?
03:45:56 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:46:41 <shachaf> oerjan: come on now you're stretching it
03:47:43 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/.$/ Except that's mostly dead, alas.\1/' wisdom/welcome
03:47:44 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:48:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/.$/ Except that'\''s mostly dead, alas.\1/' wisdom/welcome
03:48:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 41: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
03:48:26 <elliott> oerjan: did you go and visit it
03:49:17 <elliott> oerjan: then how do you know it's dead
03:49:25 <elliott> true mysterys of the universe
03:49:26 <oerjan> elliott: doesthiswork's link?
03:50:59 <shachaf> kmc: my neighbor from down the street talked about how in the time he's lived there two people have been shot in front of where he lives
03:51:06 <shachaf> and someone tried to break in with a crowbar
03:51:59 <shachaf> conclusion, don't live in epa??
03:54:08 <kmc> why did the people get shot
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04:11:21 <kmc> yessssss the Pleurotus pulmonarius culture is pinning
04:11:48 <kmc> phoenix oyster mushroom
04:12:39 <pikhq_> ITT: kmc likes psychotropic shrooms.
04:13:07 <Bike> "phoenix oyster"?
04:13:19 <coppro> elliott: what do you think of idris?
04:13:47 <elliott> not ready from general-purpose programming from my experiments
04:13:50 <elliott> especially error messages are bad
04:14:05 <elliott> work making it better is time well-spent
04:14:23 <coppro> I wasn't considering making it work better
04:14:26 <coppro> got enough distractions already
04:15:12 <kmc> it's not psychotropic...
04:15:19 <kmc> it's a tasty edible mushroom
04:15:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurotus_pulmonarius
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04:17:26 <elliott> everything to do with you is drugs
04:17:40 <kmc> :'( im typecast
04:17:44 <pikhq_> Everyone knows that's the only reason you'd know the word "bitcoins".
04:19:19 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Pleurotus_pulmonarius_LC0228.jpg
04:21:06 <kmc> saprotroph
04:21:25 <Bike> I read "sapphotroph", was mortified
04:22:44 <Bike> would mean "lesbian-eater"
04:22:50 <Bike> as opposed to "death eater" which is totally fine obv.
04:24:53 <oerjan> itym "lesbian food" hth
04:27:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Mycomorphbox
04:35:44 <coppro> elliott: is it accurate to all idris agda less the suck
04:38:08 <elliott> coppro: if you want to be oversimplifying and inaccurate, sure. (like all definitions like that are.)
04:38:13 <elliott> agda is far more usable today than idris
04:38:18 <elliott> and the two languages have different goals
04:38:24 <shachaf> reinterpret_cast<char *>(kmc)
04:38:24 <elliott> I don't see them as in competition at all
04:42:30 <kmc> why have i been reinterpreted
04:42:48 <shachaf> because you're a c++ programmer hth
04:43:01 <Bike> quite a character!! or something
04:44:02 <kmc> i have been known to program in C++ "from time to time"
04:44:26 <shachaf> Bike: twist: kmc isn't a character, just an 8-bit value
04:44:36 <kmc> signed or unsigned?
04:48:55 <elliott> kmc: can I pay you to do cpos yet
04:49:25 <elliott> why are you making this difficult kmc
04:51:16 <Bike> BALLS OF STEEL
04:51:40 <kmc> balls of radius 1
04:52:54 <Bike> what's a cpos again
04:53:31 <Bike> complete partial orders
04:54:16 <coppro> Set is such a wonderful math game
04:54:24 <coppro> it's all about adding up vectors in ZZ_3^4!
04:54:52 <Bike> so what do i gotta do
04:55:22 <elliott> tell me what the cpo of cpos is (does it exist?? I hear it does) and fix the coq problem that stops me defining it
04:56:07 <shachaf> Bike: "use ur brain" how can they be complete and partial at the same time
04:56:26 <Bike> elliott: do you have any reason to believe that it's unique?
04:56:29 <elliott> Bike doesn't have a brain. he's a bicycle
04:56:31 <mnoqy> oh dear how many people is elliott bugging about this
04:56:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: he even bugged me.........................................
04:57:02 <elliott> Bike: well you can use a trivial relation always
04:57:04 <mnoqy> have you tried the mathematicians who actually "do" order theory
04:57:10 <elliott> mnoqy: you don't understand
04:57:17 <elliott> the more embarrassing it is to ask questions
04:57:27 <elliott> would you ask a number theorist what 2 + 2 is
04:57:40 <mnoqy> i ask everyone that
04:57:53 <mnoqy> probably a number theorist would understand most why i ask
04:58:06 <Bike> If you know someone who could answer this more effectively than me i'd be happy to ask a stupid-ass question for you.
04:58:18 <coppro> who here has actually played Set?
04:58:33 <Bike> why do you want this anyway
04:58:43 <mnoqy> ask ##math (i've heard things about ##math (not really actually.....))
04:58:47 <shachaf> hey i was in the same room as dana scott once
04:58:54 <mnoqy> i've heard of dana scott
04:59:00 <shachaf> "does that make me famous"
04:59:05 <mnoqy> i may or may not have read a thing by dana scott
04:59:10 <elliott> Bike: denotational semantics
04:59:22 <mnoqy> why do you need it for denotational semantics
04:59:27 <elliott> I'm pretty sure Dana Scott is smart enough that asking him any question whatsoever would be embarrassing
04:59:27 <mnoqy> itym you need it for goofin around
04:59:35 <elliott> mnoqy: I want the denotational semantics for goofing around
04:59:44 <Bike> tsh denotational semantics
04:59:56 <Bike> whatever lemme ask the actual math student i fuckin know
05:00:09 <Bike> how you people keep up with this crap is beyond me. don't you ever want to study monks instead
05:00:11 <mnoqy> uh oh this could get ugly
05:00:22 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: "use ur brain" how can they be complete and partial at the same time <-- woah dude
05:01:10 <elliott> Bike: if you start the question with "this asshole on IRC" I'll fuck you up
05:01:38 <Bike> ?? why would i do that, you're not an asshole
05:01:38 <lambdabot> why would i do that, you're not an asshole
05:01:45 <Bike> I keep forgetting about that.
05:01:46 <mnoqy> um do you know elliott
05:02:05 <oerjan> wait Bike studies monks?
05:02:26 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure I am an asshole :(
05:02:33 <Bike> That was just an example. There are lots of interesting things.
05:02:40 <Bike> Sometimes I get a bit frustrated at how made up math gets.
05:02:46 <mnoqy> gosh have you ever like
05:02:52 <oerjan> monks, not m(on|no)qys
05:02:57 <mnoqy> i mean really thought about
05:03:00 <mnoqy> what assholes really are
05:03:10 <Bike> they call 'em assholes but i've never seen 'em ass
05:03:48 <Bike> just one of many valuable services i provide
05:04:05 <elliott> mnoqy: is there some deeper meaning i'm missing
05:04:09 <mnoqy> i m never frustrated about made up math but im frustrated about how much math i dont know
05:04:11 <elliott> imo assholes are pretty simple
05:04:18 <Bike> that's also frustrating
05:04:31 <elliott> Bike: btw don't you think this is the wrong channel to dislike things for being made up
05:04:33 <mnoqy> elliott: but referring to things as assholes??? or even whole asses
05:04:43 <oerjan> ?? hm (does (this (remove (parentheses) even) without) commands)
05:04:43 <mnoqy> how can a person be an asshole
05:04:43 <Bike> Possibly, possibly.
05:04:44 <lambdabot> hm (does (this (remove (parentheses) even) without) commands)
05:04:44 <elliott> mnoqy: well assholes say a lot of poop
05:05:02 <Bike> It's also the wrong attitude to be a math major in and yet i persist
05:05:12 <Bike> mnoqy: did i ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk
05:05:32 <elliott> Bike: wait are you actually am ath major
05:05:36 <elliott> i thought you were a fucking biologist
05:05:48 <Bike> computational neuroscience, it's a double major
05:05:54 <Bike> also i'm not even actually in school atm fuck my life
05:06:52 <elliott> made up things are inherently better anyway
05:06:54 <Bike> elliott: How about, use inclusion as a partial order.
05:07:04 <Bike> that's complete probably?
05:07:05 <elliott> follows from theorem 1 (everything that exists is shit)
05:07:11 <elliott> and theorem 2 (you can make up things that don't exist)
05:07:14 <Bike> shit is pretty interesting
05:07:23 <Bike> maybe that's the difference between you and me
05:07:59 <mnoqy> shit is shit "reflexivity, man"
05:08:04 <mnoqy> shit is also the shit, i hear
05:08:13 <Bike> the limit supremum? ummmm i guess you need the sets to have... things...
05:08:32 <mnoqy> they're not set sthey're cpos
05:09:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: hi do you provide "mnoqy wisdom"
05:09:13 <Bike> elliott: oh oops you need that one axiom........
05:09:16 <shachaf> and if so which one or both
05:09:23 <oerjan> inf might be intersection, if you are using inclusion
05:09:26 <Bike> you know. the one
05:09:38 <oerjan> dunno if that gives a cpo
05:09:40 <Bike> «Suppose a partially ordered set P has the property that every chain (i.e. totally ordered subset) has an upper bound in P. Then the set P contains at least one maximal element.»
05:09:47 <Bike> wow i'm actually really bad at this gosh
05:09:52 <elliott> okay but that's not what i'm asking about
05:09:55 <elliott> that's just talking about plain old cpos
05:09:56 <mnoqy> why do you need axiom of choice
05:10:23 <elliott> i mean what is sup c (a CPO) where c is a monotonic function N -> CPO (i.e. a chain)
05:10:30 <shachaf> can i have the axiom of choice
05:10:58 <mnoqy> Bike: is it customary in your parts to assume the axiom of choice or to assume zorn's lemma or
05:11:20 <mnoqy> which do you assume and which do you take as a consequence
05:11:27 <mnoqy> "important decisions"
05:11:29 <Bike> elliott: well that's a chain with upper bounds so it should have a maximum by zorn's
05:11:38 <Bike> just not... what it actually is
05:11:47 <oerjan> elliott: _if_ the intersection of a family of cpo's on a set is a cpo on that set then that's probably enough for the whole structure to be a cpo.
05:11:52 <mnoqy> one time a class i was in assumed zorn's lemma directly!!!
05:12:23 <mnoqy> 22:11:29 <Bike> elliott: well that's a chain with upper bounds so it should have a maximum by zorn's
05:12:26 <mnoqy> 22:11:38 <Bike> just not... what it actually is
05:12:57 <mnoqy> btw what sort of math do you do. math is cool
05:13:08 <Bike> The kind where I flail around on IRC
05:13:25 <elliott> Bike: have you proved the chain has an upper bound
05:13:34 <mnoqy> (and how have you gotten through life without needing to use zorn's lemma for a thing??? gosh)
05:13:48 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo the axiom of determinacy
05:13:48 <mnoqy> not just any upper bound but a least upper bound
05:13:52 <elliott> mnoqy: i've never used zorn's lemma
05:14:05 <mnoqy> elliott: maybe you've never gotten through life
05:14:19 <mnoqy> i've had to use zorn's lemma.....3...4???times
05:14:27 <mnoqy> never used aoc directly.......
05:14:29 <shachaf> hey who here ``believes in'' the axiom of determinacy
05:14:36 <mnoqy> what's the axiom of determinacy
05:14:48 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_determinacy
05:14:52 <elliott> it's that thing that contradicts with choice right
05:15:09 <mnoqy> i have a hard time "believing in" "believing in" math things
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05:15:32 <shachaf> that's why i put it in quotes
05:15:55 <elliott> it's like believing in math things
05:16:03 <oerjan> i "believe" in godel's completeness theorem, which means if it's consistent, it exists.
05:16:09 <Bike_> mnoqy: you don't believe that people believe in things?
05:16:36 <Bike_> elliott: the upper bound of each chain can just be the union of everything in the chain, like oerjan probably said
05:17:00 <Bike_> shachaf: i like how this is talking about games and shit that's good
05:17:01 <elliott> oh oerjan said something... it was being drowned out by bicycles
05:17:08 <oerjan> Bike_: i didn't. it's intersection that tends to work nicely with po's defined by inclusion, not union
05:17:11 <elliott> i was using inverse inclusion i think
05:17:18 <mnoqy> Bike_: are you sure you know what youre trying to do..
05:17:19 <shachaf> Bike_: um it's just talking about games
05:17:25 <Bike_> mnoqy: i'm pretty sure i don't
05:17:26 <shachaf> Bike_: which article are you reading
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05:18:17 <elliott> Bike_: are you sure you're a maths major
05:18:25 <Bike> no i'm really not
05:18:37 <shachaf> elliott: ummmm there's no such thing as "a maths major"
05:18:45 <shachaf> "major" is "american splelling"
05:18:58 <mnoqy> majour looks....wrong
05:18:59 <coppro> elliott: I'm sorry, my majour is not maths
05:19:13 <Bike> no i mean i'm not sure
05:19:16 <Bike> because i'm incompetent
05:19:48 <elliott> Bike: it's ok. i believe in u
05:20:03 <elliott> you'll achieve great things!! for a bicycle anyway
05:20:14 <shachaf> what's a great thing for a bicycle to achieve
05:20:27 <mnoqy> ease of how u get on it
05:20:36 <shachaf> not sure Bike can manage that
05:20:39 <Bike> but seriously if you just have cpo1 <= cpo2 iff cpo1 isin cpo2 then you could just take the union
05:20:44 <shachaf> Bike: have you ever been steald
05:21:03 <mnoqy> Bike: but then you need a cpo structure on that union
05:21:06 <mnoqy> Bike: is the thing
05:21:19 <elliott> you need to say: what's the bottom; what's the ordering; what's the sup
05:21:34 <mnoqy> pff u dont need a bottom
05:21:41 <elliott> well you can steal a bottom
05:21:45 <elliott> but you still need to say what it is
05:21:46 <Bike> how about set inclusion where the greater cpo's order is an extension of the lesser's
05:21:52 <oerjan> hm these sups are supposed to be directed, it seems. then union is probably fine?
05:22:43 <elliott> "the idea" is that eventually I'll be able to do sup (iter (D |-> D -> D) _|_) where iter takes (a -> a) and a to (N -> a)
05:22:52 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing, anyway?
05:22:54 <oerjan> that's weaker than dcpo...
05:22:56 <elliott> and get the D ~= D -> D domain and hence I'll have a domain for the untyped lambda calculus???
05:23:22 <coppro> elliott: untypedlambdacalculus.com
05:23:39 <coppro> elliott: what's the actual problem here?
05:23:51 <mnoqy> coppro: elliott wants the D ~= D -> D domain
05:24:07 <mnoqy> for the lambda calc's
05:24:35 <mnoqy> elliott is writing a denotatonal semantics for the lambda calc's
05:24:35 <coppro> and I'm too lazy to scrollback
05:25:19 <shachaf> conal knows everything about denotatinal semantics??
05:25:33 <shachaf> have you ever even met conal
05:26:32 <shachaf> hey how about this axiom::::::
05:26:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_uniformization
05:26:58 <coppro> elliott: do you mean you want a complete partial order of all cpos of a given set?
05:27:12 <shachaf> Quasistrategies and quasideterminacy
05:27:12 <shachaf> This section is still to be written
05:27:55 <elliott> i'm not even working in set theory
05:28:09 <coppro> you could just do it lexicographically
05:28:28 <mnoqy> are you sure you're even capable of helping at all
05:28:52 <mnoqy> elliott: better listen to this guy he knows what he's doing
05:29:25 <coppro> assuming you have some sensible way to represent it (higher-order classes or something)
05:31:13 <coppro> then your class of cpos is all pairs of the form (S, R) where S is a set and R is a relation defining the cpo. Since R \subset S^2, you can represent R as an element of 2^{|S|^2}.
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05:31:49 <elliott> but where's the cpo structure
05:32:04 <coppro> well, it depends what you're going for
05:32:28 <mnoqy> imo elliott should repeat his problem
05:32:48 <shachaf> imo mnoqy should share some wisdom with us
05:32:54 <coppro> like, do you have a cpo on sets defined?
05:32:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: ok ok if you really want it
05:33:10 <mnoqy> shachaf: - mnoqy wisdom
05:33:19 <HackEgo> mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
05:33:25 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
05:33:25 <elliott> well the actual sets themselves don't seem to factor into this... assuming <= gives inclusion or such
05:33:35 <coppro> but that's not complete
05:33:51 <mnoqy> elliott: the joke is that you throw away their cpo structure and toss on a new one by inclusion or what-not
05:34:03 <coppro> if you're working over ordinals, then you could do something sensible
05:34:04 <mnoqy> elliott: since your problem doesn't matter
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05:34:58 <coppro> but I don't see an obvious "correct" one
05:35:36 <coppro> for cpos over the some fixed set, you could do refinement/relaxation and both are complete I believe
05:35:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you ever going to be monqy again
05:35:47 <mnoqy> shachaf: whenever elliott sends monqy messages
05:36:09 <shachaf> @ask monqy hi we love you monqy we miss you at school
05:36:10 <coppro> (since you can just view them as subsets of S^2 and then the empty set and the powerset are minima and maxima
05:36:28 <coppro> and obviously the ordinals have a cpo built in.
05:36:50 <mnoqy> seriously i think you should read what elliott said about his actual issue
05:37:23 <mnoqy> too lazy to scrollback "not an excuse to go on an irrelevant tangent (doesn't that take more effort anyway?)"
05:37:46 <coppro> < elliott> tell me what the cpo of cpos is (does it exist?? I hear it does) and fix the coq problem that stops me defining it
05:37:50 <shachaf> help is a cotangent a dual of a tangent
05:38:10 <coppro> elliott: so yeah, if I'm not being helpful, please explain the problem better
05:38:14 <mnoqy> coppro: how about the part where he says what he's actualyl trying to do
05:38:22 <mnoqy> coppro: since he's said it!!! let's make it a game and find it
05:38:43 <elliott> well i'm particularly interested in what the cpo structure of the sup of a cpo \omega-chain looks like..... given inclusion or something as the ordering on cpos itself
05:39:09 <oerjan> shachaf: cotangent only exist in america, as do secant and cosecant. hth.
05:39:09 <coppro> elliott: the problem is you can't really define inclusion on cpos on unrelated sets unless you can relate those two sets
05:39:10 <mnoqy> it starts with "the idea" and ends with "lambda calculus"
05:39:22 <shachaf> oerjan: you know i suspected that it was american
05:39:32 <coppro> so you might as well assume you're working over ordinals I think?
05:39:33 <shachaf> oerjan: i never completely understood those functions
05:39:36 <elliott> coppro: if one cpo is included in another then clearly you have a subset...
05:39:40 <shachaf> oerjan: why do they exist in america
05:39:47 <elliott> (or a partial mapping function or whatever)
05:39:58 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i don't really know it's only american, but it's definitely not common in norway)
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05:40:40 <elliott> so I suppose you could define the ordering as existence of a monotonic mapping one way or such
05:41:00 <Bike_> gotta memorize those versine tables
05:41:28 <coppro> elliott: sorry, when you say inclusion, is {a, b} with the trivial ordering included in {a, b} with a <= b or the other way around?
05:42:49 <fizzie> @tell Fiora Apparently Meridian Lossless (and that Monkey thing, at least) are not strictly speaking LPC-based, because they have an IIR (not FIR) predictor block there. (And also there seems to be more variation when it comes to how they take advantage of inter-channel correlations between the algorithms.)
05:43:03 <elliott> I'm not actually sure which way the ordering goes
05:43:15 <coppro> ok, I'll assume it's as I described
05:43:19 <mnoqy> well it's the way where the sup of that chain gives you the thing you want
05:43:28 <coppro> then isn't the supremum the union of the sets plus the transitive closure of the union of the orderings?
05:43:29 <elliott> I suppose it depends on whether _|_ the cpo's set is the empty set or (an arbitrary) singleton set
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05:44:20 <elliott> coppro: what's the sup operation in the cpo that results in?
05:44:35 <coppro> elliott: does not parse
05:44:48 <elliott> well, sup goes from an \omega-chain of cpos to a cpo
05:44:57 <elliott> so for sup's result to be a cpo, it has to have a sup operation defined
05:45:17 <coppro> man, I missed the problem
05:45:26 <coppro> uh, I'll need to think about this one
05:46:18 <coppro> I'll start with definitions; (S_1, R_1) <= (S_2, R_2) if S_1 \subseteq S_2 and R_1 \subseteq R_2, right?
05:46:28 <coppro> (just to formalize what I think we have)
05:47:19 <elliott> you might want to include the sup function in that definition
05:47:23 <elliott> although I guess it's unique
05:47:57 <coppro> well the sup function is built in to each of (S_1, R_1) and (S_2, R_2)
05:48:15 <coppro> I'm assuming R_1 and R_2 to be cpos here
05:48:26 <coppro> ok well there's the obvious cop-out
05:49:04 <coppro> you can just define the sup of an \omega-chain to be \bigcup_{i=1}^\infty S_i \cup {x} for some x \notin S_i for all i \in \omega
05:49:15 <coppro> and make x be a maximal element
05:49:27 <coppro> then it's always the supremum
05:49:58 <elliott> err, does that satisfy the least upper bound part? I don't get it
05:50:42 <coppro> define the relation in the supremum to be \bigcup_{i=1}^\infty R_i \cup { (s, x) : s \in S_i for some i \in \omega }
05:51:16 <coppro> because then for any \omega-chain inside S, x will always be greater than every element
05:51:41 <coppro> (and you can pick x uniquely by making it the least ordinal not in any of the sets or something)
05:52:06 <coppro> but generally I think you need some cop-out like that
05:52:55 <coppro> hang on, I'm going to mathbin a pathological case
05:57:51 <coppro> http://mathbin.net/163618
05:58:06 <coppro> so clearly inclusion is not the ordering
05:58:13 <coppro> also ignore what I said about defining sup differently
05:58:50 <coppro> the ^n should be inside the bracket
05:59:02 <coppro> corrected version in reply
05:59:12 <elliott> i will observe when my browser stops freezing
06:01:34 <coppro> basically the idea is to pick a subset of the natural numbers so that each chain has finitely many distinct elements
06:02:08 <coppro> err, subordering (is that a word?)
06:02:19 <coppro> but then the union is all the naturals, which have no upper bound
06:03:23 <coppro> if you don't like "finite" there, you could do it with \omega^2 and do it "modulo" powers of omega rather than 2
06:04:49 <elliott> is that \omega-chain actually properly ordered?
06:05:40 <coppro> yes, because if n is congruent to m modulo some power of 2, then it is also congruent to m modulo any smaller power of 2
06:06:20 <elliott> maybe the ordering on cpos needs to be different
06:06:35 <coppro> if a cpo of cpos exists, it must be
06:06:53 <oerjan> if things depend on which choices you make, then they're usually not natural constructions
06:06:55 <coppro> but you clearly want it to the underlying cpos, right?
06:07:24 <elliott> perhaps reversing it works?
06:08:02 <coppro> you mean the same as before except we require that R_1 \supseteq R_2 rather than \subseteq?
06:08:35 <mnoqy> elliott: are you sure this will even solve your problem
06:08:43 <mnoqy> i actually took a second to think about your chain and
06:08:54 <elliott> mnoqy: im ok with diversions
06:09:08 <elliott> iirc reading somewhere that a cpo of cpo type things get you the fixed points you need tho
06:09:23 <elliott> coppro: right (and similarly the Ses)
06:09:55 <oerjan> vague idea for what would be natural: the sup of your chain of cpo's should be equal to their categorical limit when you let inclusions be your morphisms
06:10:09 <elliott> ye limits being involved makes sense
06:10:14 <oerjan> or colimit, i never quite remember which is which
06:10:15 <elliott> since that's how you get the recursive cpos more "naturally"
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06:11:30 <mnoqy> colimits are "lubs" (have "injections") and limits are "glbs" (have "projections")
06:11:34 <coppro> elliott: I think that works
06:11:44 <oerjan> mnoqy: probably colimit then
06:11:46 <coppro> since the chain would also be a chain in every (S_i, R_i) pair
06:12:05 <coppro> it would have a supremum
06:12:19 <coppro> it might not be the same in each set, but ... wait, nope, this doesn't work either
06:12:32 <mnoqy> wouldn't colimit make more sense
06:12:45 <coppro> elliott: let S_i = \omega \cdot 2 for all i
06:13:18 <oerjan> i keep confusing with the morphisms out of the limit that give the universal property
06:14:01 <mnoqy> i just remember by products are limits and coproducts are colimits
06:14:05 <coppro> let R_0 be the usual ordering, and let R_{i+1} be R_i except \omega + i is made unordered
06:14:26 <coppro> then the supremum has every element \omega or bigger being unordered, so \omega itself has no supremum
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06:16:09 <oerjan> mnoqy: i just remember they're the opposite way of what i'd have defined them to start with, and _then_ i start getting confused :P
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06:18:49 <coppro> it's quite possible the category theoretical approach makes more sense and possibly works
06:19:03 <coppro> to date, I've not had the chance to actually get a decent understanding of category theory
06:19:11 <coppro> since I keep getting distracted by math actually taught at my school
06:19:27 <shachaf> Category theory is indecent, anyway.
06:19:43 <oerjan> well category theoretical approaches tell you a unique property of what you want, but usually leaves with the work of proving it actually exists.
06:22:20 <mnoqy> category theory's pretty cool, pretty cool. i'm learning all about monoids
06:22:54 <shachaf> elliott.........................................................
06:26:56 <elliott> oerjan: so about this categorical construction... :P
06:27:14 <shachaf> did someone say something about categorical constructions
06:27:38 <mnoqy> shachaf: remember elliott's cpo of cpos
06:27:53 <mnoqy> well you're in for a big treat
06:27:56 <oerjan> elliott: well _if_ the cpo exists in the categorical sense, then it is probably the right thing.
06:28:38 <mnoqy> cpo of "small" cpos
06:28:57 <elliott> i got a universe inconsistency when defining it in coq :')
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06:45:02 <shachaf> Bike: What's sw2wolf all about?
06:45:20 <Bike> never reading the manual, ever? i dunno
06:45:50 <shachaf> Or is that just in the other channel?
06:46:32 <Bike> Well, in #lisp often he asks about stumpwm, a window manager.
06:47:01 <Bike> «<jpaugh> sw2wolf: programming is too abstract. That's why only programmers do it.» so glad i looked at these logs
06:54:00 <elliott> * sw2wolf bad luck to encounter wai-app-file-cgi-0.8.3 :(
06:54:14 <elliott> <sw2wolf> @package wai-app-file-cgi-0.8.3
06:55:41 <Bike> i can only just barely understand whatever he's talking about, and that's only sometimes
06:56:23 <ais523> we need another IRC-based esolang
06:56:36 <ais523> and not like the one that's designed to look like IRC logs either
06:56:46 <ais523> rather, it takes place as apparently random comments across many different channels
06:56:56 <ais523> that make no sense out of context, or even in context really
06:56:57 <Bike> i think that's called a botnet dude
06:57:02 <Bike> not that i'm opposed
06:57:12 <ais523> yeah, a bit like the way botnets work
06:57:38 <Bike> actually a steganographic botnet C&C system sounds pretty neat
06:57:51 <shachaf> this is actually a bilingual pun????????
06:58:01 <shachaf> "bots" means mud in hebrew
06:58:02 <elliott> <sw2wolf> shachaf: are you the channel controller ?
06:58:09 <elliott> Bike: are they this good in #lisp
06:59:09 <shachaf> So God said to some of the bots, "Sit up!"
06:59:22 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a bot?
06:59:22 <fungot> fizzie: write me a sf account?
06:59:34 <Bike> * sw2wolf I know CL step by step by hacking STUMPWM. It seems other lisp dialects cannot provide such a real app. for you to tweak :)
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06:59:48 <fungot> fizzie: what's wrong with having a few instructions in the readme in that ftp archive i pointed to, since it has a ridiculous limit on the number of times
06:59:53 <elliott> I hate stumpwm because I watched a video of it once
06:59:55 <Bike> ais523: you'd have to be pretty shrewd to avoid getting banned (network or channel) for spaming, I think.
06:59:57 <elliott> and the fucking guy pronounced it like
07:00:09 <Bike> * sw2wolf maybe it is easy to understand symbol to regard it as Memory Address ?
07:00:54 <Bike> hm i have said way too many things to this guy
07:01:11 <oerjan> surely it should be stumpduddlyyem
07:01:55 <Bike> < sw2wolf> macro-syntax: Scheme seems elegant than CL, but few applications developed using Scheme compared with CL
07:02:14 <Bike> ok he tried to talk to rudybot for like ten minutes once
07:02:27 <Bike> rudybot is not in the channel, needless to say
07:04:11 <elliott> Bike: well he is right. scheme is way better than cl.
07:04:33 <Bike> sw2wolf is right
07:04:48 <Bike> elliott: are you the lisp controller ?
07:05:27 <elliott> and i'm as easy as monoisd
07:06:44 <oerjan> thith lithp ith outh oth conthrol
07:07:23 <Bike> maybe i should make an esolang called "rhoticism".
07:08:30 <elliott> Randall Ahmed is the name he loves to be called with but it's not the most masucline name out there. After being out of his job for years he became a database administrator. Doing 3d graphics is the thing he loves most. His wife and him chose to reside in American Samoa. His wife and he maintain a website. You might want to check it out: http://ti-89.org/wiki/?title=Acute_and_recurring_pain_studied
07:09:14 <elliott> ais523: a page you deleted yesterday
07:09:43 <ais523> I guess if that sort of spam happens more, I can also disallow one-liners that end with a link
07:09:50 <elliott> from the name. to the comment on the name. to the job and love.
07:09:56 <elliott> to the location. to the wording of the location.
07:10:16 <ais523> I admit not reading it more than was necessary to establish it was spam
07:10:42 <ais523> btw, it's likely linking to a spam page on a legitimate wiki
07:10:57 <elliott> the domain is squatted by a hosting company.
07:11:17 <elliott> it would have been even better if it linked to a spam page on a wiki about TI-89 calculators, really
07:11:32 <Bike> if it linked to a totally normal wiki page on ti89s
07:11:35 <shachaf> (answer: yes i can "inside joke")
07:11:59 <ais523> Bike: that reminds me of the spambot who was spamming links to google.com
07:12:06 <ais523> as [google.com google]
07:12:12 <ais523> my guess is it was a spambot author testing something
07:12:19 <ais523> and using it as an example.com substitute
07:12:27 <ais523> err, [http://google.com google]
07:12:30 <shachaf> Google trying to increase their PageRank?
07:12:31 <oerjan> shachaf: be careful, soon elliott may be desperate enough to make you one
07:12:44 <shachaf> oerjan: i would do absolutely nothing
07:13:04 <ais523> oerjan: actually we have basically no spam edits now
07:13:14 <ais523> the spam filters on edits are holding very effectively
07:13:22 <oerjan> ais523: and _still_ recent changes is overrun :P
07:13:24 <ais523> however, the CAPTCHA isn't, so we get a lot of spam registrations
07:13:34 <elliott> i'll work on it soon, promise
07:14:12 <ais523> oerjan: I can adjust the edit filter, but only elliott can adjust the CAPTCHA
07:14:35 <ais523> elliott: fwiw, I have a strong suspicion that making the answers change over time would defeat the spambot reasonably comprehensively
07:14:37 <oerjan> CAPTCHA: Write a 200 word essay on why spamming should carry the death penalty. Be convincing.
07:14:51 <ais523> even if it's something as simple as "what number is the day within the month?"
07:15:00 <elliott> ais523: well if there's a human...
07:15:05 <ais523> because I suspect it's working from a framework designed to attack MediaWiki in particular but not Esolang in particular
07:15:15 <elliott> i wish i knew about limits and stuff. properly.
07:15:16 <ais523> and that human involvement is used to compile answers initially, but not beyond that
07:15:22 <elliott> ais523: they'll just adjust the answers, I suspect
07:15:35 <ais523> well it'll waste more of their time than it will of ours
07:15:42 <ais523> and that's how all antispam measures work, eventually
07:15:58 <elliott> I was considering blocking the user-agent from registering if it's distinctive
07:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: Limits as in categories?
07:16:16 <ais523> elliott: from my checkusering, it appears to be faking common browser user-agents
07:16:22 <ais523> but not in a particularly consistent way
07:16:34 <elliott> ais523: well, it's fairly likely there's *some* distinctive mark
07:16:58 <ais523> elliott: I guess… check which order the fields are submitte din
07:17:15 <ais523> then see if we can reorder them in the HTML and see if the spambots still reorder them in their automated submissions
07:17:19 <elliott> ais523: btw, this kind of thing acts as motivation for me to rewrite the wiki software, so mediawiki spambots have no hope :P
07:17:33 <elliott> (though updating mediawiki acts as an even greater motivation there.)
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08:30:02 <Fiora> fizzie: oooh, inter-channel correlation. that makes sense given that blu-ray loves things like 5.1 and 7.1
08:30:03 <lambdabot> Fiora: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:30:20 <Fiora> I often forget non-stereo audio exists <.<
08:38:15 <fizzie> Even for stereo signals, one benefits from encoding them non-independently.
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08:40:27 <fizzie> FLAC seems to have four encoding modes for pairs of stereo channels -- independent, mid-side ((left+right)/2 and left-right), left-side (left and right-left) and right-side (right and left-right).
08:40:35 <elliott> something about joint stereo??
08:41:49 <fizzie> I think lossy formats' joint-stereo mode is something slightly more elaborate than just the mid+side approach. But that's just a hunch.
08:42:44 <fizzie> Something closer to having the averaged signal, plus some parameters for panning the subbands.
08:42:52 <shachaf> oerjan: greetings from the past
08:43:51 <Fiora> wow, that's a lot of modes. I only know of mid-side
08:44:20 <fizzie> Fiora: "Surprisingly, the left-side and right-side forms can be the most efficient in many frames, even though the raw number of bits per sample needed for the original signal is slightly more than that needed for independent or mid-side coding." (FLAC format docs.)
08:45:32 <elliott> i am so glad people know about lossless audio compression so i don't have to
08:45:41 <Fiora> why @_@ this sounds really cool!
08:46:00 <elliott> it's not that i don't want to
08:46:15 <elliott> so if i had to know about it, right now i would be sitting with a big ol pile of wav files
08:46:23 <shachaf> hey i want to know about audio compression
08:46:25 <Fiora> one thing I remember is that like, 24-bit audio is often more than twice as large as 16-bit in lossless
08:46:41 <Fiora> because the low bits have way more entropy than the high ones, since they're noisier and harder to LPC-predict
08:46:58 <fizzie> Fiora: Looking at the actual bits, though, it appears as if (in FLAC) you can only use the channel intercorrelation parts for stereo files. There doesn't seem to be an encoding for using any of those modes when there are >2 channels. (I might be wrong about this.)
08:47:01 <Fiora> I think it's the same with like 16-bit PNG vs 8-bit PNG being like a gazillion times larger
08:47:06 <elliott> i read a Monty thing where he went on about 24 bit being pointless
08:47:33 <elliott> "Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space." wham
08:47:35 <Fiora> ahhhh. I remember that being like a problem with vorbis too, like, it wasn't designed for many-channel modes originally or something. and I guess mp3 too?
08:47:46 <elliott> "Responses indicate that few people understand basic signal theory or the sampling theorem, which is hardly surprising." boom??
08:49:35 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't know the historical background, but it supports 1-8 independent channels (channel assignment codes 0..7), or the three special stereo modes mentioned above (codes 8..10); just not a generic "here's more than two channels and they're actually correlated too" thing.
08:49:56 <Fiora> Yeah, that makes sense...
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08:51:34 <fizzie> ALAC can do 32 bits per sample.
08:51:47 <fizzie> I'm sure there's someone somewhere storing their audio as IEEE 754 doubles.
08:54:31 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the S/PDIF stream is "natively" 20 bits/sample, but you can stretch it to 24 bits, except then the extra bits are stuck in some less logical places and ignored by some devices.
08:57:49 <Fiora> how does channel correlation work between more than 2 channels?
08:57:57 <Fiora> 2 channels seems to be a nice "easy" case where you can just do, like, mid-side
08:58:05 <Fiora> but more dimensions makes things messier I'd guess
08:58:30 <fizzie> You could certainly do just one main channel and all the others as differences, in hopes that the (presumably small) difference channels compress better.
08:58:35 <Fiora> I guess you could have some kind of N*M-dimensional predictor, where N is your LPC order and M is the number of channels, but that sounds painful
09:01:23 <fizzie> Presumably you could also share the predictor coefficients, but that doesn't sound like a likely gain.
09:03:02 <Fiora> I meant, like, normally one channel only predicts from itself, right? but instead you could have coefficients for how every channel predicts from every other channel in combination or something
09:03:15 <Fiora> (that sounds like it'd balloon fast)
09:03:46 <fizzie> You could look at http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/mlp_jap_new.PDF for what MLP does -- it seems to use a quite generic series of transformations for the channel decorrelation.
09:05:07 <quintopia> how is my little pny's channel decorrelated? as far as i know, it always airs on the same channel. that's a pretty strong correlation.
09:05:28 <Fiora> ohhh, a matrix thing.
09:05:49 <fizzie> A matrix thing except with some wrinkles to make it lossless.
09:06:22 <Fiora> this is reminiscent of um... what was it called
09:07:12 <Fiora> RGB->YUV uses like those decimal coefficients that have rounding errors, while YCgCo uses a formula that's invertible, so you can use it to decorrelate the 3 RGB channels for lossless compression
09:07:55 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/5/1/e5195697a23c4f8ef9d4b7af745df9a2.png
09:12:23 <HackEgo> 843) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
09:12:31 <shachaf> I went to a talk about JPEG compression once.
09:13:10 <shachaf> JPEG compression is complicated. :-(
09:13:14 <olsner> throw in some DCT and huffman, mix it around until it says JPEG?
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09:13:41 <shachaf> More complicated than, say, LZW.
09:14:12 <fizzie> olsner: Also a zigzag, I remember the zigzag.
09:14:34 <Fiora> and the scan order thing, where you can have like multiple huffman tables
09:15:00 <Fiora> (which was intended for progressive but you can kind of throw anything at it or something?)
09:15:02 <fizzie> (Zigzag referring to the ordering of the quantized block DCT coefficient so that all the zeros are at the end.)
09:15:57 <Fiora> http://vsr.informatik.tu-chemnitz.de/~jan/MPEG/HTML/zigzag.gif zigzags!'
09:16:13 <fizzie> JPEG 2000 can do lossless, I think.
09:16:16 <olsner> that's all part of the "mixing around" step :P
09:16:32 <fizzie> And it's still wavelets when it's lossless, or something.
09:16:45 <fizzie> JPEG 2000 is, like, this millennium, man.
09:16:59 <Fiora> I think jpeg had a lossless mode too?
09:17:03 <shachaf> No, this millenium started in 2001.
09:17:04 <Fiora> but nobody used it (?)
09:17:10 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_JPEG ah
09:17:29 <shachaf> Fiora: Did you watch any more Look Around You?
09:17:41 <Fiora> um... no I haven't
09:18:28 <fizzie> Fiora: Hey, JPEG2k also has a modified reversible YUV variant for the lossless mode. (The default mode does Y'CbCr.)
09:18:43 <Fiora> does it do like ycgco, or something else?
09:19:09 <fizzie> Looking at the numbers, it seems pretty similar.
09:19:33 <fizzie> At least the Y channel's the same.
09:20:08 <shachaf> Number? We're not pulling teeth 'ere!
09:20:17 <Fiora> I remember the tricky thing with YCgCo is that it requires 1 extra bit of range in the Cg and Co channels
09:20:36 <Fiora> (while like yuv doesn't)
09:20:59 <fizzie> The chroma channels seem different; It has C_B = B-G and C_R = R-G.
09:20:59 <Fiora> the logic being something like "only ~1/4 of YUV maps to valid RGB, so to losslessly represent RGB, the YUV space has to be about 4 times bigger"
09:21:13 <Fiora> wow, that almost sounds like mid-side XD
09:21:34 <fizzie> While Y is the same (R+2G+B)/4 like in YCgCo.
09:22:36 <fizzie> Then you get just G = Y - floor((C_B + C_R)/4) for the reverse.
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09:26:36 <fizzie> Not that I've ever come across a .jp2/.jpx file anywhere, so it's perhaps all a bit academic.
09:27:07 <shachaf> imo Gregor shouldn't have voice
09:27:25 <Fiora> but academic stuff is fun
09:27:54 <shachaf> What, like "publish-or-perish"?
09:28:52 <fizzie> Here's a nice peek at Linux development practices (courtesy of a different #channel): http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.pci/21634
09:29:36 <fizzie> I'm sure it's also in your Diddits or whatevers that you use these days.
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09:39:41 <shachaf> Fiora: You should come back to #fiora!
09:40:15 <Fiora> um, I recreated it as ##fiora
09:40:18 <Fiora> so that I could register it
09:43:34 <fizzie> Freenode should designate a prefix (###?) so that each account has an autocreated, autoregistered "nick channel" automatically.
09:43:52 <fizzie> Also possibly some kind of a service that says nice things about the person in question on that channel every now and then.
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10:15:37 <itsy> I just invented a new Esolang :-)
10:22:44 <itsy> < increment the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> > decrement the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> - increment the byte at the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> + decrement the byte at the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> , output the byte at the data pointer
10:22:45 <itsy> . accept one byte of input
10:22:45 <itsy> ] if the data pointer points to zero, jump to the matching [
10:22:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `data'
10:22:46 <itsy> [ if the data pointer points to nonzero, jump to the matching ]
10:22:46 <itsy> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with +
10:23:38 -!- itsy has left.
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10:35:29 <fizzie> Can you think what would have happened, had Phantom_Hoover been here? We really dodged a brick there.
10:37:03 <fizzie> "Category:Brainfuck derivatives: The following 109 pages are in this category, out of 109 total."
10:37:17 <fizzie> (18 in Category:Brainfuck equivalents.)
10:38:32 <Deewiant> itsy seems to have been impomatic
10:42:53 <Deewiant> impomatic (~digital_w@87.115.210.249) has left #esoteric
10:44:44 <fizzie> Perhaps it was just someone living in the same household, or something.
10:45:02 <elliott> hiding his secret identity as a bf derivative author
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10:54:26 <HackEgo> lastlog: unexpected argument: taneb \ Usage: lastlog [options] \ \ Options: \ -b, --before DAYS print only lastlog records older than DAYS \ -h, --help display this help message and exit \ -t, --time DAYS print only lastlog records more recent than DAYS \ -u, --user LOGIN print last
10:54:35 <Whtspc> any first comments on my sketch esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Geharrewar ??
10:55:54 <Whtspc> is there something fresh in it, or is it a copy of dusty ideas :)?
10:56:08 <fizzie> TikZ is the BesT. Even if it ist kein Zeichenprogramm.
10:58:02 <fizzie> That thing reminds me of Fueue, except that Fueue is perhaps somewhat more user-unfriendly.
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13:21:02 <fizzie> Did some of you people speak of Antichamber, the game? Something called that is -50% off in Steam today.
13:22:14 <quintopia> find me a computer capable of running it for 50% off
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13:24:19 <fizzie> http://www.itsco.de/computer/fujitsu_siemens_pcs/pc_fujitsu_siemens_esprimo_p5625_amd_athlon_64_x2_5600_2x_29ghz_i8_8233_0.htm there you go, I'm sure that's at least 50% off the original price.
13:24:41 <fizzie> (I just took the system requirements from Steam, and selected the first hit at itsco.de that had marginally bigger numbers.)
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13:30:56 <fizzie> I think I have a computer very much like that, except with twice the RAM and two dozen times the disk space. Maybe it would be time to upgrade one day.
13:36:18 <Fiora> antichamber is really really wonderful
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13:41:48 <fizzie> Would Haswell be a nice microarchitecture to upgrade to, from Windsor (one of the Athlon 64 X2's)? Aren't those supposed to come out soon? I'm sure you guys follow these things.
13:41:59 <fizzie> Also related, I need a hat. What's a good hat'chitecture?
13:43:58 <Fiora> geez that would be a pretty huge upgrade
13:44:09 <Fiora> but yeah, haswell seems pretty nice?
13:45:58 <fizzie> I hear it has New Instructions.
13:47:56 <boily> DoublePlusMorphism?
13:48:25 <Fiora> new instructions~~
13:48:47 <Fiora> BMI1, BMI2, AVX2, SMEP, FSGSBASE, TSX, oh my!
13:48:53 <elliott> so are those haswell things coming out soon?
13:49:03 <fizzie> I think someone said something about summer somewhere.
13:49:06 <elliott> i just want, like, a new computer. someday.
13:49:27 <elliott> hm july is in like a week. roughly.
13:49:41 <Fiora> apparently the mobile and desktop ones are both coming out?
13:49:49 <elliott> too bad they'll cost about a week when they come up.
13:49:54 <elliott> come out, i mean. i guess come up too.
13:50:02 <elliott> they design intel processors under the sea, presumably
13:50:38 <fizzie> Yes, there's the early adopter fee.
13:50:44 <boily> ~eval 60 * 24 * 7 / 30
13:51:15 <Fiora> you could also probably grab an ivy bridge after the price drop?
13:52:40 <fizzie> Fiora: But our household already has a Sandy Bridge (my laptop) and an Ivy Bridge (my wife's laptop), isn't there something called... what was it... Intel Exclusion Principle, that in one house you can't have more than one quantum something something, and so I couldn't get another Ivy Bridge.
13:53:28 <fizzie> It's like Intel systems are fermions and AMD ones are bosons.
13:53:32 <fizzie> (I'm not a physicist.)
13:53:42 <Fiora> wait if you already have those two why do you need another @_@
13:53:55 <Fiora> that's a lot of fast computers
13:54:25 <boily> it's like: I already have two raspberries, and I want to have a udoo too.
13:54:37 <fizzie> Those are both laptops, I'd like to upgrade my desktop compumator too. There's more dick space in it, for one thing.
13:55:32 <Fiora> upgrade, though? won't you have to pretty much replace everything anyways?
13:55:38 <fizzie> I keep using it for web surfing, and it keeps going all swappy, and I can't fit more memory in it except maybe with a hammer.
13:56:00 <fizzie> It'll go in the same box, it's still an upgrade.
13:56:21 <fizzie> Also, I think I can keep the disks for now.
13:57:36 <Fiora> New graphics card, too...?
13:58:10 <fizzie> It'd probably count as an upgrade even if I kept the integrated GPU.
13:58:33 <fizzie> It has a passive-cooled Geforce 7600 in it at the moment.
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13:58:38 <fizzie> That's a few generations old.
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13:59:34 * Fiora tries to figure out which generation that was from
13:59:49 <Fiora> yeah... wow. geeez. that was a long time ago
14:00:23 <Fiora> that's ~6-7 generations old... wow
14:00:30 <Fiora> it's been a long time...
14:02:31 <fizzie> The desktop is that old because last upgrade cycle, the iBook G4 I had for a laptop was starting to show signs of age (like disk errors), and I needed a working laptop for occasional travelling, so I went with the kind of laptop that also sort of served for occasional gamery purposes.
14:02:57 <fizzie> I suppose it was a bit of a compromise (esp. w.r.t. portability), but it's worked just fine.
14:03:34 <elliott> does 6-7 generations mean like, 3 years
14:03:37 <Fiora> It looks like you're right, I think, the Intel HD 4000 on the ivy bridge is like, 3x faster than the 7600 GS
14:03:44 <Fiora> and the haswell's supposed to be a bunch better
14:04:33 <Fiora> ummm I think the 7000 series was from like 2005
14:04:44 <Fiora> which is somehow 8 years ago now
14:05:22 <fizzie> Looking at release dates in Wikipedia, both the graphics card and the CPU seem to be from around 2005-2006. Maybe 2007, they weren't the very newest thing when I got them.
14:05:58 <elliott> i can buy 2005 being 8 years ago. what doesn't make any sense is that 2008 was 5 years ago.
14:06:46 <fizzie> Yeah, you can't just change the digits around like that.
14:11:31 <fizzie> What about the hat, though, are there any leaked roadmaps showing new hat architectures just around the corner? I need it before June.
14:15:20 <fizzie> (It should be more or less opaque, and preferrably it should make me look only as stupid as necessary, up to a constant factor, in case that matters.)
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15:48:17 <Deewiant> 18.16:54:37 fizzie | Those are both laptops, I'd like to upgrade my desktop compumator too. There's more dick space in it, for one thing.
15:48:28 <Deewiant> Was that an intentional choice of words?
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15:57:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: Though it's also true literally.
15:57:43 <fizzie> I would hesitate to stick a dick in the laptop.
15:58:04 <fizzie> Well, maybe the desktop too, all those spinning fans.
15:58:33 <Taneb> All the spinning fans
16:01:02 <boily> you could do it the mythbusters way and stick a ballistic gel dick in your various machines.
16:03:04 <fizzie> Mythbusters, shouldn't they be starting 2013 episodes one of these days?
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16:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> could you use ballistic gel to approximate a dick anyway
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16:11:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that sounds like a question for the Mythbusters
16:12:57 <Taneb> Perhaps a question for Brainiac: Science Abuse
16:13:00 <Taneb> Do they still make that?
16:13:04 <Taneb> I don't think they do
16:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i met dr bunhead once and he was just like "yeah i mean it's all bullshit"
16:14:11 <fizzie> Was that the show where they faked the alkali metal thing?
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16:14:33 <fizzie> That's the only thing I know about it.
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16:17:25 <fizzie> "The entire left-most column of the periodic table (not counting hydrogen) is composed of elements that are great fun to throw in a lake --" interesting way of classifying elements.
16:17:38 <fizzie> And who's to say throwing some hydrogen in a lake wouldn't be fun?
16:18:08 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately, the way it works out is that the explosive potential peaks at sodium and potassium
16:18:16 <Taneb> "One, two, three! Oh, it just floated away"
16:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> because rubidium and caesium are less dense and have a higher molar mass, so they produce less hydrogen
16:19:59 <kmc> i'm sure that's what mendeleev had in mind
16:23:30 <fizzie> "This unpredictability makes sodium arguably the most dangerous of the alkali metals in inexperienced hands (soon to be inexperienced stumps)." This page has a tone.
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16:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (this also means that all the "so if you put francium into water it would BLOW UP ALL THE THINGS EVER" line of thinking is completely wrong)
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17:06:43 <pikhq_> fizzie: If you've got liquid hydrogen I dare-say it'd be quite fun.
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17:43:04 <elliott> The first tools for solving such equations were provided by Scott using his inverse
17:43:07 <elliott> limit constructions [33]. Later he showed how the inverse limits could be entirely
17:43:10 <elliott> avoided by using a universal domain and the ordinary least fixed point construction
17:44:04 <elliott> data types as lattices here i go
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18:27:35 <boily> French spam is back on the wiki!
18:28:41 <boily> hm, since feb. 15 you can get metal goats. sounds interesting.
18:30:47 <Taneb> Does the French spam make more or less sense than the average English spam
18:31:50 <boily> it does. it's like fungot, but with a better and clearer markov-chainy feel.
18:31:50 <fungot> boily: thanks for the link
18:32:03 <boily> fungot: I ain't linked nothing yet, you baka!
18:32:03 <fungot> boily: another way, did you know... just lazy i guess you wouldn't know about many books that i here are " it isn't an illusion, you are duplicating effort.
18:32:19 <boily> fungot: oh. sorry. my bad!
18:32:19 <fungot> boily: so chicken is very practical, ie it gets your work done early then that means the probability is the absolute limit
18:32:44 <olsner> fungot: do you eat chicken?
18:32:44 <fungot> olsner: it'd be an fnord
18:33:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:33:00 <boily> chicken is good, but pork is better.
18:33:24 <FireFly> fungot: rainy today, don't you think?
18:33:24 <fungot> FireFly: time it before and somehow got the impression that the latest aol " 1099 hours free" cds come in are neat in themselves.
18:33:46 <FireFly> fungot: that's a lot of hours
18:33:46 <fungot> FireFly: my own one, and i ran against a wall, then back to new tabs on the other
18:34:05 <metasepia> CYUL 181800Z 13020KT 15SM FEW030 OVC057 07/03 A3006 RMK SC1SC7 PRESFR SLP180
18:34:11 <kmc> i read 'metal ghosts'
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18:35:50 <kmc> i mean that i read something someone said above as 'metal ghosts'
18:36:06 <elliott> metal ghosts would be a good name for something
18:36:56 <boily> kmc: that someone would be me, I think.
18:37:23 <olsner> I think I'd like metal goats better
18:37:25 <boily> I still prefer the goat version. less dangerous, and conforms to walls and (usually) don't try to pass through them.
18:37:36 <boily> olsner: great to see I'm not alone.
18:41:37 <kmc> if a metal ghost passes through your computer, does the computer crash
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18:42:48 <boily> does the metal from the ghost conduct electricity?
18:47:42 <metasepia> EFHK 181820Z 19017KT 9999 -RA OVC030 09/06 Q1000 TEMPO 6000 RA
18:48:31 <Taneb> Will I ever get in trouble for understanding a monoid as a Haskell Monoid?
18:48:41 <fizzie> It's -RA'ing, and I guess the trend is RA too?
18:49:12 <boily> fizzie: yes, a TEMPO means a temporary change.
18:49:26 <elliott> Taneb: a monoid is just a one-object category!
18:49:46 <Taneb> What would a zero-object category be
18:50:08 <metasepia> EGNT 181820Z 25020G30KT 9999 FEW017 SCT025 09/04 Q1005
18:51:14 <boily> fizzie: «Temporary fluctuation in some of the elements lasting for periods of
18:51:16 <boily> 30 minutes or more but not longer than one hour with each instance and does
18:51:18 <boily> not cover more than half of the total period indicated by HHHH.»
18:51:34 <fizzie> 25020G30KT -> wind direction 250 degrees, 20 knots, up to 30 in gusts?
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18:52:47 <fizzie> I still don't know what the 9999 is. Visibility?
18:53:23 <olsner> maybe they sneak in nonsense tokens to expose the outsiders
18:54:10 <boily> fizzie: ground visibility. 9999 means nothing to worry about.
18:54:19 <Taneb> olsner, isn't that supposed to be how society began or something
18:54:35 <boily> with north american METARs, you may see something like 24 or 30SM.
18:54:39 <metasepia> CYUL 181800Z 13020KT 15SM FEW030 OVC057 07/03 A3006 RMK SC1SC7 PRESFR SLP180
18:54:57 <boily> oh, a delicious PRESFR!
18:55:13 <fizzie> A3006 was in sillyunits?
18:55:23 <fizzie> (There was a discussion.)
18:56:34 <boily> millimetres of mercury.
18:57:26 <boily> one atmosphere at 25 °C is 29.97 inHg.
18:57:36 <fizzie> At least the temperature was still in Celsius.
19:00:06 <fizzie> What's the SC1SC7 at CYUL?
19:00:59 <boily> one okta of stratocumulus at 3000' and seven oktas of the same at 5700'.
19:01:33 <fizzie> Oh, so it's an addition to the FEW030 OVC057 part?
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19:05:00 <nooodl> Taneb: in a zero object category you'd have no arrows either "it'd be pretty boring"
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19:46:49 <FireFly> Taneb, nooodl: wouldn't a zero-object category be an initial object in Cat? i.e. there's a functor from it to every other small category
19:47:05 <FireFly> which might make it a bit less boring
19:47:19 <FireFly> I dunno, I'm mostly curious if I got things wrong or not
19:47:44 <Taneb> FireFly, I have no idea
19:47:54 <nooodl> Similarly, the category of all small categories with functors as morphisms has the empty category as initial object ...
19:49:43 <kmc> Taneb: it depends what you mean by "Haskell monoid". there's nothing in the language to check that your Monoid instance satisfies the laws
19:50:24 <Taneb> kmc, well, assuming total functions, a Haskell monoid satisfies closure at least
19:50:37 <Taneb> But other than that...
19:50:50 <Taneb> type + _|_ I think has to be closed?
19:51:17 <Taneb> kmc, I'm not quite sure what I'm saying
19:51:38 <Taneb> It doesn't check that mempty is the identity of mappend, or that mappend is associative
19:51:48 <kmc> i think if you write «instance Monoid Foo» then you are only really claiming to satisfy the laws for non-⊥ elements of Foo
19:52:05 <kmc> and maybe even only for elements of Foo that don't contain a ⊥ anywhere
19:52:14 <kmc> Haskell programmers usually gloss over these issues when talking about typeclass laws
19:53:12 <kmc> you'll often have a situation where (⊥ `mappend` mempty) ≠ ⊥, as well
19:53:35 <Taneb> > undefined `mappend` () :: ()
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19:56:55 <elliott> fast and loose reasoning is morally correct ect.
19:57:02 <elliott> of course i've never read that paper but i can cite it anyway and also im so fuckign tired
19:59:09 <kmc> i do Compose B B with my ~/.XCompose
19:59:33 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/math-compose
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20:03:04 <nooodl> wow <Multi_key> <period> <asterisk> : "∙" U2219
20:05:13 <olsner> hmm, a 1h documentary about alan davies measuring the length of a piece of string
20:05:41 <Taneb> (I've just remembered how fun the Alt Gr key can be)
20:07:42 <Taneb> I seem to be watching some sort of US news comedy show
20:08:04 <Taneb> Not Stephen Colbert
20:08:06 <kmc> is it the daily show
20:08:08 <kmc> with jon stewart
20:08:33 <Taneb> It's got some guy with grey hair and a purple-ish tie
20:09:01 <Fiora> http://bpr.berkeley.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jon-stewart.jpg ?
20:09:37 <kmc> i went to a filming of the daily show in new york
20:09:56 <kmc> it's free to go
20:09:58 <Taneb> I think I prefer Chaser's War on Everything
20:10:01 <kmc> the studio is a lot smaller than i thought
20:10:14 <FireFly> Taneb: it's even more fun if you override the third- and fourth-level mappings with custom characters
20:10:17 <Taneb> As far as foreign political comedy goes
20:10:33 <FireFly> I have ∀ on altgr+shift+å for instance
20:10:49 <Taneb> I don't have a key
20:11:10 <FireFly> https://bitbucket.org/firefly/dotfiles/src/ed6758e4b8a0de448992b44ac5bc18705bb18469/xkb/firefly.symbols?at=default#cl-15
20:11:35 <Taneb> My alt-gr q has a spare @
20:11:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `='
20:11:53 <ion> taneb: I like both.
20:12:00 <Taneb> I think this is the Daily Show
20:12:12 <Taneb> The guy just got called some variant of John
20:12:17 <olsner> my q key displays a spare @ but makes a spare ä
20:12:23 <kmc> åbčdəffγhijĸlmn°pqrßtŭ∨w×y↯
20:12:38 <ion> áb©ðéfghíïœøµñóöäëßþú®åœüæ
20:12:54 <boily> 攢ðœŋħ→ijĸŀµʼnøþ¶ßŧ↓“łx←z
20:13:29 <Taneb> @łe¶ŧ←↓→øþæßðđŋħł«»¢“”nµ
20:14:04 <boily> ΩŁŒ®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞƧЪŊĦIJĿZX©‘’♪º
20:14:44 <Taneb> Okay, my dad picked up the remote and flicked.
20:14:49 <Taneb> I am no longer watching the Daily Show
20:15:03 <boily> I went full force with xmodmap a few weeks ago: http://pastebin.com/BJm2a9kG
20:15:10 <Fiora> I usually watch it online, it's easier that way
20:15:20 <Fiora> ... well and also I don't have cable, so
20:15:35 <Taneb> I think satellite's more common in the UK?
20:15:47 <Fiora> they have them all free on the official website, I think
20:16:09 <kmc> maybe only for US IP addresses
20:16:16 <kmc> they have them on Hulu which is definitely IP-restricted
20:16:16 <fizzie> You use zz for ↯ much?
20:16:57 <Fiora> oh geez, that's true... I'm not sure if comedy central does geoblocking
20:17:10 <kmc> Fiora: i forgot about it but I'll try to use it more now that I've remembered
20:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a uk website now but afaict it doesn't have `the goods' on it
20:18:35 <fizzie> əß©ð€fŋhıjĸlµño¶q®šþuvw×yž is what comes out of altgr-{a..z} here.
20:18:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (the daily show is shown daily on more 4 but i haven't watched it in years)
20:18:50 <kmc> er, that was meant to be fizzie:
20:20:03 <Taneb> In other news, I'm worried I'm trapped in a positive feedback loop that is driving my political compass increasingly south-west
20:20:07 <boily> I can't decide which one of fizzie or FireFly has the most esoteric available character (w/o using compose)
20:21:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, towards south cumbria, currently
20:21:46 <Taneb> Perhaps even as far south as Blackpool
20:22:35 <Taneb> (a sentence fragment ais523 never dreamed of hearing)
20:26:14 <Taneb> Windemere seems to be roughly south-west from here
20:26:58 <olsner> blackpool is indeed south of my whole country
20:27:00 <olsner> most likely south of alleged canada as well
20:27:18 <Taneb> I think it's north of, eg, Toronto
20:28:00 <olsner> toronto is a further 10 degrees south even
20:28:26 <boily> southern canada is strangely south. and manages to be friggin cold at the same time.
20:28:30 <Taneb> Pretty sure it's north of Calgary
20:29:01 <Taneb> boily, Lake Windermere
20:29:09 <boily> calgary is 51°, blackpool is 53.
20:29:48 <boily> Taneb: so you are east of hexham's middle, northeast from lake windermere.
20:30:29 <Taneb> boily, Windermere is pretty long
20:30:36 <Taneb> And I am in the east of Hexham
20:30:57 <coppro> canada is more than alleged!
20:30:59 <boily> yeah. the error margin is pretty large. meh :/
20:31:13 <coppro> olsner: I've been there
20:31:56 <boily> *cough* uhm... if I may say so, I *think* I am there, now. like, I'm pretty sure.
20:32:52 <coppro> I followed this map: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Canada-ItsUpThere.gif
20:33:21 <boily> there's a non-null chance of you falling into the Great Lakes, mind you.
20:33:38 <boily> have you had any drowning experiences or adventures in the past?
20:34:15 <Taneb> One of my friends drowned to death once
20:40:04 <Taneb> (actually true story)
20:41:36 <coppro> I mean, not the drowning to death part
20:50:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no heartbeat
20:51:00 <Phantom_Hoover> also: your (female, at least) friends seem to have terrible luck
20:51:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, most of my anecdotes are about one friend
20:51:24 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It's not all that unconventional. See e.g. Christianity.
20:51:52 <Taneb> Then there was that other guy who got hit by a car and died and got better
20:52:11 <Taneb> Also, the head injury female friend is someone else completely
20:52:38 <Taneb> So, I have about three friends who have bad luck like that
20:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> in the grim darkness of the far north there is only bodily harm
20:53:01 <Taneb> Yesterday evening I bashed my knee and I think it's bruised
20:53:32 <olsner> did you kill it knee and it got better too?
20:53:49 <boily> I still have a nice scar on my knee, result of an accident involving a flowerbed and a car being washed.
20:54:07 <Taneb> I went to a children's playground
20:54:12 <Taneb> And there was a big climby thing
20:54:30 <Taneb> The youngest person there was 18, Phantom_Hoover.
20:54:39 <Taneb> I climbed the big climby thing
20:54:48 <Taneb> Then I climbed down the big climby thing
20:54:59 <Taneb> Then I tripped on the big climby thing and hit my knee
20:55:22 <coppro> Taneb: ok i don't want to be your friend anymore
20:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> the youth of hexham struggle to find what joy they can
20:55:44 <coppro> it seems potentially fatal
20:55:56 <shachaf> Taneb is moving to California anyway. Isn't that right?
20:55:58 <Taneb> One of those deaths was before I knew them
20:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> attempting to regress to a more innocent time, Taneb only wounds himself further
20:56:06 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe, in about 6 years
20:56:27 <Taneb> I have a party to attend on Saturday in Hexham
20:56:31 <shachaf> Because it's the place to be?
20:56:37 <shachaf> There are parties in California, Taneb.
20:56:38 <olsner> Taneb: *before* you knew them? did you retroactively kill then unkill one of your friends?
20:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> party?? or a bunch of you standing around in a leaky shed
20:56:49 <Taneb> olsner, no, this was an accidental drowning
20:56:59 <boily> California is too hot, IMHO.
20:57:26 <Taneb> The part that's hotter than boily
20:57:31 <Taneb> Because boily sounds like boiling
20:57:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, do all the old people tell you how all hope died the day they close t' pit
20:57:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, nah, that mainly happens in the places where there was coal
20:58:02 <olsner> Taneb: in french it's probably pronounced something more like boahlee, and it can mean anything
20:58:09 <Taneb> We're on sandstone and sheep here
20:58:12 <shachaf> Over 100°? I don't think it gets that hot even in Death Valley.
20:58:26 <shachaf> It's named Death Valley after Taneb's friends.
20:58:51 <Taneb> Hey! No-one close to me has ever died while they were close to me!
20:59:17 <Taneb> That would explain a lot
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20:59:29 * Fiora makes a note to stay as far away from taneb as possible
20:59:44 <Taneb> Fiora, would you rather die and not come back?
20:59:53 <Fiora> I don't want to die :<
21:00:08 <Taneb> Do you sometimes wish you never were born at all?
21:00:37 <Fiora> u-um... maybe a few times but not often or something
21:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, look on the bright side, you weren't born in hexham
21:01:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, neither me nor elliott were actually born in Hexham
21:02:11 <shachaf> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hexham%2C+Irvine%2C+Orange%2C+CA+92603
21:02:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I was born 23 miles away from Hexham
21:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (have you ever worked out where elliott lives i refuse to believe nobody in hexham has heard of him)
21:03:01 <Taneb> (I found one person who used to know him)
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought that person knew a different elliott hird who also lived in hexham
21:03:34 <Taneb> No, that was someone else
21:03:44 <Taneb> ...the person who drowned, as it happens
21:04:18 <Taneb> The person whose face was kicked
21:04:18 <shachaf> Taneb: How come you and elliott haven't met?
21:04:37 <Taneb> shachaf, an endless stream of coincidences and also elliott never goes outside ever
21:05:26 <olsner> how small is hexham anyway?
21:05:35 <Taneb> olsner, just under 12000 people
21:05:50 <shachaf> ha the town i lived in was smaller
21:06:00 <Taneb> shachaf, did elliott live ther?
21:06:06 <Fiora> are we stalking elliott :<
21:06:12 <shachaf> no but a mathematician lived there
21:06:23 <Taneb> shachaf, was that mathematician you
21:06:28 <Taneb> Fiora, no, we're discussing the Hexham coincidence
21:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i'm sorry do you even get how ridiculous this whole situation is
21:06:33 <shachaf> Do I look like a mathematician to you?
21:06:52 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off to bed now
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21:28:52 <fizzie> "The game is set in the fictitious, floating town of Hekseville --" is that also about Hexham? I'm sure that's about Hexham.
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22:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2013/04/18/west_texas_fertilizer_plant_blast_map.jpg ok wow i never realised quite how stupid that layout is
22:26:54 <Fiora> geez, someone needs to send that zoner to go play simcity, you don't put industrial zones next to residential zones!
22:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well, of late you don't put industrial zones anywhere *badum-tssh*
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22:38:44 <Sgeo> I don't know if what my boss said about common web security practice is true, but if it is, I hate everything
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22:39:26 <kmc> what did your boss say
22:39:42 <kmc> Fiora: zoning? in texas? :)
22:40:05 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
22:40:31 <Sgeo> That beyond just sanitation when doing things like sending data in URLs, it's typical to validate at the controller to strip out special characters if they're known to not be present
22:41:30 <FreeFull> Valid data can always be corrupted or modified
22:41:50 <Sgeo> But special characters should be encoded, not rejected, imo
22:42:13 <Sgeo> Or processed by the service if the service needs to talk over the wire to something, etc.
22:43:31 <olsner> rejecting "weird" data can save you when the other 200 layers of your rube goldberg web service inevitably do everything wrong
22:43:52 <olsner> a shame for all the O'Somethings in the world though
22:44:08 -!- lambdabot has joined.
22:44:24 <Sgeo> Also, UriComponentsBuilder sucks
22:44:36 <FreeFull> With a proper type system you could enforce escaping
22:45:06 <Sgeo> AFK for a few hours; getting inducted into an honor society
22:45:10 <FreeFull> But if you've got a large piece of software in a language where everything string-like is a string
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22:46:51 <kmc> yep, Java sucks therefore static types suck
22:46:57 <kmc> MySQL sucks therefore relational databases suck
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22:47:05 <kmc> Python threads suck therefore all threads suck
22:49:24 <kmc> but also the message right before mine where FreeFull mentioned types...
22:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> how are you getting an x's y sucks therefore all y sucks vibe from that
22:51:42 <kmc> i wasn't accusing FreeFull of having this attitude
22:52:02 <kmc> i would summarize FreeFull's claim as "languages with good types could solve this problem, but they aren't used in webdev"
22:52:33 <kmc> i was elaborating on why and tying it to other attitudes common in webdev communities
22:52:38 <kmc> that have a similar form of overgeneralization
22:53:24 <FreeFull> Haskell does get used in webdev but it's nowhere as mainstream as ruby
22:53:45 <kmc> most programmers think of types as like, int vs. double
22:53:58 <kmc> something annoying you have to write out yourself, which exists to help the machine a bit but doesn't help much in finding errors
22:54:13 <FreeFull> I guess you could enforce escaping using objects
22:54:37 <FreeFull> But the programmer needs to think to have a HTML object rather than just a string
22:55:15 <FreeFull> I think libraries and APIs might not be helping out
22:55:56 <kmc> if you have types richer than "string" then it is hard to get all the libraries on the same page about them
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22:56:01 <kmc> that's a big problem in the Haskell world as well
22:57:02 <kmc> where there are like six JSON libraries and six conduit/pipe libraries and etc.
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22:58:34 <kmc> even String vs [Word8] vs ByteString vs Text is still a big source of impedence mismatch
22:58:38 <FreeFull> The only problem with haskell is that the default records are an afterthought
22:59:16 <kmc> that is... not the only problem with Haskell
23:00:09 <FreeFull> [Word8] and ByteString seem to me like they'd be more for binary data than for text
23:00:33 <kmc> but people are perpetually confused about the difference between binary data and text
23:00:46 <kmc> also ByteString existed long before Text, aiui
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23:01:10 <kmc> so for a while if you wanted decent performance, you would use ByteString with UTF-8
23:01:25 -!- mnoqy has changed nick to monqy.
23:01:28 <kmc> or just assume that only Americans use your software
23:01:32 -!- monqy has changed nick to mnoqy.
23:02:21 <FreeFull> And that Americans never need anything more than ASCII
23:02:35 <kmc> yeah, that's not true either
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23:03:23 <FreeFull> I wonder if lambdabot is getting updates
23:03:51 <Fiora> kmc: I still love the idea of ada-like types, like where you can say the valid ranges of a type
23:04:35 <kmc> yeah, I wish Haskell had that
23:04:51 <Fiora> "type Integer_1 is range 1 .. 10;"
23:04:56 <kmc> dependently-typed languages generalize that, but maybe in a way that's not so nice to work with
23:05:38 <Fiora> ada does that thing where it kind of encourages you to write code that's very well specified through its types, I think
23:05:42 <Fiora> a bit like haskell but maybe moreso?
23:05:52 <Fiora> so that it can detect logic errors at compile time more easily, and runtime too I think?
23:06:02 <Fiora> type Short is range -128 .. +127;
23:06:03 <Fiora> type Byte is mod 256;
23:06:13 <Fiora> that makes... sense
23:06:33 <Fiora> type Color is (Red, Green, Blue); type Intensity is range 0 .. 255;
23:06:33 <Fiora> type Colored_Point is array (Color) of Intensity;
23:06:57 <FreeFull> That is really similar to Pascal
23:07:38 <FreeFull> I wonder if Pascal copied it from Ada or vice versa
23:08:25 <Fiora> wikipedia says Ada was developed ~1977-83, while Pascal was published in 1970?
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23:09:11 <FreeFull> Fiora: I don't know how much Pascal changed over time though
23:09:44 <Fiora> I really know almost nothing about either thoguh
23:09:55 <kmc> Ada was briefly the SgeoLang
23:10:28 <Fiora> Ada seems really interesting though
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23:13:18 <FreeFull> In Pascal, in a type section you could say something like Color = (Red, Green, Blue); Intensity = 0..255; ColoredPoint = array [Red..Blue] of Intensity
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23:50:57 <doesthiswork> I just had the best idea, markov chain replies to phishing scams
23:52:11 <doesthiswork> if the phishers have to figure out whether they are talking to a person or not, it makes their job more difficult
23:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i only remember shachaf incessantly telling Sgeo he should learn it