00:00:08 -!- benuphoenix|away has changed nick to benuphoenix.
00:02:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:09:53 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
00:12:06 <shachaf> <bgates_> http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=476525281 <---- Bike + wood = Classy bike
00:12:54 <Bike> is this a fixie
00:13:28 <shachaf> I didn't look at the link.
00:37:02 <shachaf> how many functions of type Bool -> Bool are there
00:37:16 <mnoqy> is this a trick question
00:37:37 <shachaf> well we're counting ⊥s and things, does that count as trick...................
00:37:49 <shachaf> but now you know the trick
00:37:53 <Sgeo> There's the obvious 4
00:37:54 <mnoqy> 2^2 real functions, 1 for bottom, 1 for const bottom?
00:38:11 <mnoqy> different flavours of bottom?
00:38:13 <shachaf> like f True = True; f False = undefined
00:38:14 <Bike> can't you have bottom -> true, bottom -> false, bottom -> bottom
00:38:22 <Sgeo> Oh, we need to count outputting bottom on true, output bottom on false
00:38:25 <mnoqy> i hate this question
00:38:26 <Bike> shachaf i think this may be a dumb question
00:38:36 <Sgeo> So it's more than I forget which way the exponents go
00:38:38 <mnoqy> 3^3 and leave it at that
00:38:56 <mnoqy> i dont want any more of this
00:39:03 <mnoqy> 2^3 + 1 is my final answer
00:39:06 <Sgeo> If it takes _|_ in then it has to be const true const false or bottom (or const bottom)
00:39:19 <Sgeo> erm, takes _|_ in and outputs True of False
00:39:24 <mnoqy> hate this question
00:39:26 <shachaf> 13 is what i ended up with
00:39:26 <Sgeo> Screw the bottom
00:39:42 <mnoqy> oh right theres also
00:39:48 <mnoqy> yeah im not playing this game anymore
00:40:01 <shachaf> is this the real reason you use total languages
00:40:02 <Sgeo> I'd play it if I just had time to write it down
00:40:04 <mnoqy> take your question and go back to "cares about bottom"land
00:40:20 <Sgeo> As in, mnoqy's guesses are confusing
00:40:29 <mnoqy> not all of my guesses were serious
00:40:52 <shachaf> one of them was right i think "but was it only right by accident"
00:41:34 <Sgeo> m -> n are there (ign. bottoms) m^n or n^m I forget
00:42:09 <shachaf> think of () -> a vs. a -> ()
00:42:24 <Sgeo> shachaf's makes more sense
00:42:51 <shachaf> I,I f :: () -> (a vs. a) -> ()
00:42:54 <Sgeo> m->n there are n^m then
00:43:10 <shachaf> ANOTHER CLUE THAT WE'RE WRITING FUNCTIONS BACKWARDS, IMO YES
00:43:15 <mnoqy> Sgeo: tuples makes sense if you realize x^n is n->x
00:44:08 <Sgeo> So, ignoring input bottoms but not output bottoms, there are 3^2 Bool->Bool
00:44:10 <FreeFull> a _ = (); a x = x `seq` (); a x = a x;
00:45:33 <Sgeo> We can just add manually the 2 functions that are _|_ -> True and _|_ -> False
00:46:11 <Sgeo> So let's assuming that the 3^2 functions all bottom on bottom
00:46:30 <mnoqy> you also need bottom and const bottom
00:46:32 <Sgeo> Since that will help avoid double-counting const True and const False
00:46:41 <Sgeo> mnoqy, I can add those later or something
00:47:07 <Bike> so what's the point of this question
00:47:10 <mnoqy> yes but then you're playing into shachaf's hand
00:47:53 <Sgeo> We can also be bottoming on True but not bottoming on False, and bottoming on False but not True
00:47:59 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:48:11 <Sgeo> Hold on, that may end up double-counting some in the 2^3
00:48:14 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:48:19 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:48:54 <Sgeo> Yes, I've already counted the sometimes bottomers
00:49:18 <Sgeo> So it's 3^2 + 2 + 1 + 1 if I did not already count const bottom, but I did.
00:49:28 <Sgeo> So 3^2 + 3. I think.
00:50:13 <mnoqy> you're 1 off of shachaf's 13
00:50:13 <Sgeo> I guess I could try to make a list...
00:50:30 <Bike> yes just write them all out
00:50:36 <Bike> it's like phil 101 homework all over again
00:51:23 <Sgeo> mnoqy, where's the mistake in my logic, if there is one?
00:51:25 <Bike> i'm already bothered
00:51:55 <Sgeo> We could try 3^3 and remove the invalid ones
00:52:18 <Sgeo> Oh, 3^3 + 1, sorry
00:53:40 <shachaf> list out all your functions and i'll tell you which one is missing/????????
00:53:43 <Bike> srsly, why'd you ask
00:54:17 <shachaf> don't ask why things come up in #haskell
00:54:56 <Sgeo> 3^3 + 1. This includes a number of functions that given a bottom don't bottom but not given a bottom do sometimes bottom. There are 2 ways to not bottom. times ... argh
00:56:18 <Sgeo> bot -> 2,true->2,false->bot; bot->2,true->bot,false->2;bot->2,true->bot,false->bot
00:57:06 <Sgeo> 2 indicates two possibilities
00:58:10 <Sgeo> 3^3 + 1 - 9 = 3^3-8 = 19 = um
00:58:19 <Bike> Because e.g. f bottom = true, f true = false, f false = false doesn't work.
00:58:48 <mnoqy> sgeo your way of counting them is exceedingly silly
00:59:10 <mnoqy> im getting 12 so i just have to figure out what im missing (why am i doing this, fuck)
00:59:12 <shachaf> you have exceeded your silliness quota for the day Sgeo
00:59:13 * Sgeo sees a thinko and revises down to 18, which isn't much better
00:59:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: which 12 are you getting
00:59:25 <Bike> y'all need to learn how to stop thinking about things.
00:59:26 <mnoqy> 3^2 strict functions + const True + const False + bottom
00:59:29 <Sgeo> could shachaf be wrong
00:59:34 <mnoqy> shachaf is never wrong, sgeo
00:59:55 <Sgeo> id should be in the 3^2
00:59:56 <Bike> that's strict.
01:00:13 <mnoqy> oh right i forgot about
01:00:40 <mnoqy> id doesnt' need to evaluate its argument
01:00:59 <mnoqy> i hate this question
01:00:59 <Sgeo> But id _|_ = _|_
01:01:04 <mnoqy> i hate thinking about how things evaluate
01:01:09 <Sgeo> I hate typing _|_
01:01:16 <shachaf> mnoqy this is denotational
01:01:19 <Bike> q: is haskell church-rosser
01:01:45 <mnoqy> shachaf: bothering with how things evaluate is so low-level and also terrible and awful and i hate everything about it
01:01:47 <nooodl> protip when talking about stuff like this, keep ⊥ in your paste buffer
01:01:57 <mnoqy> i have to put that on my compos key
01:02:13 <shachaf> i just type ctrl shift u 2 2 A 5 space
01:03:48 <nooodl> huh is ⊥ a valid Bool → Bool
01:04:21 <mnoqy> ok shachaf spill the beans whats the function im missing. it has to assign bottom to something that isnt bottom or i would have counted it with the strict stuff, but it cant be const true or const false.
01:04:26 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/rekvmk4hgcukcck0ecwtw
01:04:28 <nooodl> or was mnoqy just saying "const False + bottom" short for "const False + const bottom" ??????
01:04:45 <Sgeo> I count 12 there.
01:04:50 <Sgeo> What's missing?
01:04:54 <Bike> > asTypeOf undefined not
01:05:23 <mnoqy> nooodl: bottom is a perfectly fine bool->bool in haskell
01:05:29 <shachaf> mnoqy: i'm confused by the way you 're counting...........
01:05:33 <shachaf> did you count const bottom
01:05:46 <nooodl> is const bottom different from bottom?? did i answer the question
01:05:52 <mnoqy> const bottom is strict ((const bottom) bottom = bottom)
01:05:55 <shachaf> nooodl: yes it's "different"
01:06:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, I made a list. What function's missing?
01:06:16 <Bike> where'd lambdabot go.
01:06:34 <shachaf> someone in #haskell said it was 13
01:06:43 <shachaf> and i said to him, no it's 12
01:07:17 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:07:42 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/0a730e1546184ed8d363fce9a9c705e3/tumblr_mljz8bJ3t21qbhhv4o1_500.png
01:08:03 <Sgeo> const bottom should totally be counted as the same as bottom, so 11
01:08:18 <Sgeo> seq is banished from reality
01:09:54 <mnoqy> thats not very nice of you sgeo
01:09:54 <shachaf> okay now how many functions :: Maybe () -> Maybe () are there
01:10:17 <nooodl> uhh it's gonna be a trick but
01:11:03 <Sgeo> If a function gives n for Just bot, it has to give n for..
01:11:27 <Sgeo> Seems very pyramidy
01:12:21 <Sgeo> 3 + 3 + 3 I think
01:13:04 <Sgeo> 3 consts, 3 that bottom on bottom but are const on Just x, and 3 that bottom on bottom, ... crud
01:13:21 <nooodl> there's at least 3^2 strict functions?
01:13:23 <Sgeo> ...crud is the new bottom
01:13:48 <nooodl> (instead of True/False you have Just ()/Nothing)
01:13:59 <Sgeo> I forgot that Nothing existed.
01:14:23 <Bike> shachaf you goddamned asshole
01:15:57 <Bike> so anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlawries_Bill what the fuck, england?
01:16:50 <shachaf> nooodl: some things don't exist..............
01:17:55 <nooodl> quintopia: are existent things dense in the set of things
01:18:38 <nooodl> oops wow xchat what the fuck is this
01:19:01 <nooodl> oh i had the dumbest option ever on
01:19:23 <mnoqy> was it on by default
01:19:33 <shachaf> mnoqy;;; do you have it on
01:20:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: but you used to????
01:20:02 <nooodl> i turned it one because i thought it'd uh
01:20:07 <mnoqy> ive never used xchat
01:20:20 <nooodl> you know in xchat when you want to tab-complete a name and there are multiple options
01:20:32 <shachaf> nooodl: did you read that one book by raymond smullyan (_5000 B.C._)
01:20:35 <nooodl> and instead of cycling through them it just displays them all, forcing you to type more of the name
01:21:08 <nooodl> anyway i thought this option could maybe solve that because its name was really vague
01:21:16 <nooodl> and i left it on without ever noticing anything
01:21:28 <nooodl> (i had googled it but it's undocumented like everything in fucking xchat)
01:21:40 <nooodl> what's it about / why'd you bring it up
01:21:48 <shachaf> well it talks about existent things
01:21:51 <shachaf> and also a bunch of other things
01:22:02 <nooodl> most books talk about existent things :-)
01:22:15 <nooodl> i guess science fiction doesn't !!!
01:22:19 <shachaf> hey he's publishing another book this year
01:22:23 <nooodl> let's look this thing up
01:22:25 <mnoqy> lessee... 4^2 strict functions not distinguishing Just bottom from bottom, add 3^2 for those that do, then youve got 3 nonstrict const's, and 1 for bottom
01:22:30 <mnoqy> hey shachaf did i do it right why did i do that uuugh
01:22:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: i don't know what do i look like a person who would do that..
01:24:40 <shachaf> lambdabot i summon you...............................
01:25:00 <mnoqy> 16+9+3+1 = 25+4 = 29
01:25:03 <kmc> `run echo $((2+2))
01:25:10 <shachaf> i'm casting my lambdabot summoning spell be patient!!
01:25:21 <kmc> lambdabot has summoning sickness :`(
01:25:40 <mnoqy> by lambdabot summoning spell do you mean uhh that thing where you "obtain" lambdabot admin status
01:26:15 <shachaf> i mean the thing where lambdabot is back up now thanks to Cale
01:26:20 <mnoqy> ok is it the one where lambdabot dies and then just takes forever to join channels
01:26:22 <shachaf> and then take credit for it
01:26:31 <mnoqy> why does it take forever, poor engineering?
01:26:47 <shachaf> well throttling "and stuff"
01:26:48 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:26:54 <shachaf> lambdabot is in about a billion channels hth
01:27:07 <mnoqy> a billion is a lot
01:27:18 <shachaf> not as much as ten billion
01:27:34 -!- lambdabot has joined.
01:27:50 <lambdabot> mnoqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:27:50 <shachaf> a billion isn't cool. you know what's cool? a trillion hth
01:28:51 <mnoqy> unless it's wrong and i get hooked on it because im a horrible addicted to stupid things like this
01:41:59 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:43:17 <kmc> lambda bot
01:43:53 -!- carado has joined.
01:44:50 <shachaf> time to summon lambdabot again
01:46:07 -!- lambdabot has joined.
01:46:29 <shachaf> shachaf++ # summoning lambdabot
01:52:16 <Sgeo> ) Im far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:17 <jconn> Sgeo: Im (far better than lambdabot anyway)
01:52:31 <Sgeo> ) far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:32 <jconn> Sgeo: far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:40 <Sgeo> ) im far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:41 <jconn> Sgeo: im (far better than lambdabot anyway)
01:52:47 <jconn> Sgeo: a (b c d e f)
01:52:49 <Sgeo> ) a b c d e f g
01:52:50 <jconn> Sgeo: a b c d e f g
01:53:45 <Bike> so glad we had this chat.
01:57:25 <nooodl> that's because of how trains work
01:58:07 <nooodl> well, actually because of how they're displayed
01:59:05 -!- dessos has left.
02:01:15 <nooodl> wow there's this exaple on the j wiki about converting a non-tacit expression to a tacit one using trains
02:01:46 <nooodl> then it makes some steps to arrive at this: (^@[) + ((([^2"_) - (]^2"_)))
02:01:59 <nooodl> and then below that there's this
02:02:02 <nooodl> In this case terser tacit expressions are possible: ^@[ + *:@[ - *:@] or, even better, ^@[ + -&*:
02:03:13 <Sgeo> Aren't tacit verbs more reversible than explicit?
02:03:37 <Jafet> @pl \x y -> exp x + x^2 + y^2
02:03:37 <lambdabot> (. (^ 2)) . (+) . liftM2 (+) exp (^ 2)
02:10:20 <nooodl> @ty (+) <$> exp . fst <*> uncurry ((+) `on` (^2))
02:10:36 <nooodl> it translates into this, pretty much
02:12:10 <kmc> Fiora: reading the GBC boot rom thing now o_O
02:14:30 <Bike> haha that thing was horrifying
02:14:48 <lambdabot> mnoqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:14:49 <kmc> i like that it involves a TOCTOU swaparoo on the logo data as well
02:14:55 <kmc> mnoqy: http://www.fpgb.org/?page_id=17
02:15:13 <kmc> time of check / time of use
02:15:29 <kmc> the FPGA ROM emulator reads out a Nintendo logo the first few times that area is accessed, and afterward reads out the dumper program
02:16:06 <kmc> I guess the boot ROM verifies the Nintendo logo so that any unauthorized cartridges have to be trademark infringing as well
02:16:50 <Bike> see? horrifying
02:17:13 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:17:32 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:17:59 <Fiora> horrifying more like amazing and wonderful
02:23:55 <kmc> oh since people were talking about autism and portrayals of autism in media, i thought i would share this link http://ada-hoffmann.livejournal.com/39870.html which i came across somehow, which is a list of books with autistic characters and/or by autistic authors
02:24:03 <kmc> dunno if it's any good
02:28:21 -!- benuphoenix has left.
02:28:22 <Fiora> I'm not sure I'd really enjoy that kind of thing,... I guess, like, I don't really like those "parts" of myself, so I'd rather not read a character that focuses on those things... maybe? I don't know, it's hard to express
02:29:53 <Bike> maybe some of the authors have similar feelings and you could find something to relate to there?
02:30:13 <Fiora> maybe... I find sometimes I don't really relate that much to a lot of autistic people though, I'm not sure.
02:30:34 <Fiora> I guess a vaguely comparable example might be...
02:32:11 <Fiora> among LGBT-focused romance manga/doujins/etc, there's a category that are more realistic and down to earth, and deal with a lot of day to day discrimination, stereotypes, and so on
02:32:23 <Fiora> and then there's the sort that are more idealized, take place in fantasy worlds, and so on
02:32:35 * Sgeo has heard of The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time
02:32:40 * Sgeo wonders if he should read it
02:32:49 <Fiora> and sometimes you want to read a story about all the problems that people face. and sometimes you just want to read a story far, far away from those problems
02:33:54 <Fiora> and I guess, in the media I like, I don't really like to be reminded of pains that exist in reality but shouldn't exist
02:34:07 <Fiora> fantasy should be fantasy, it should be a place where there doesn't -have- to be sexism, or bigotry, or any of that
02:34:32 <Fiora> ... if that makes any sense
02:37:25 <kmc> anyway I thought I'd pass on the link just because it came up in discussion earlier
02:37:39 <kmc> i don't read enough fiction anymore to have opinions on whether I want to read about people like myself or different
02:37:54 <Fiora> yeah, no problem ^^
02:38:02 <Fiora> I don't want to chastise you for posting them -_-
02:40:38 <Fiora> also I'm probably disillusioned by typical media portrayals so
02:46:59 <coppro> I like characters like me
02:47:43 <Bike> books about people who sit around reading are pretty boring imo, so fuck books about meoids
02:48:40 <Fiora> I like characters that are close enough to me to connect with, but are thrust into interest circumstances or in interesting worlds full of wonderful people, so they do more than sit around inside all day <.<
02:51:42 <Sgeo> Huh. SGML had a predecessor.
02:52:31 <mnoqy> well what else would it standard-generalize
02:52:57 <Sgeo> Its precedessor was already Generalized
02:53:57 <Bike> standard specialized markup language
02:54:21 <mnoqy> ibm gml looks.....cute......
02:55:57 <Sgeo> ...IE is directly descended from Mosaic?
03:05:19 <Sgeo> [About XMLHttpRequest] "This trivial mechanism was meant to be of little significance, merely an attempt to scratch an itch in the web-based version of Microsoft Outlook."
03:20:48 <Sgeo> I suggested to my dad that online banking via app on phone may be more secure than via web, because of various web-specific issues that wouldn't occur in an app, but not sure if that's reasonable
03:21:53 <Jafet> Then you find out it's the bank server that's insecure
03:25:38 * Sgeo wtfs at firefoxurl:
03:26:23 <kmc> Sgeo: you got your copy of Tangled Web?
03:26:44 <Sgeo> kmc, yeah, have been reading it
03:32:28 <Sgeo> How many pages is the physical copy? Nook says it has 1382 pages but I saw someone else say something like 300
03:32:59 <Bike> if nook is like my shitty phone ebook reader it has smaller pages
03:33:52 <Sgeo> Fun fact: Nook pages don't correspond to page turns
03:36:00 <kmc> yeah the physical copy is definitely not that many
03:36:08 <kmc> 300 sounds right
03:36:15 <Bike> a 1300 page book about the web sounds terrifying
03:41:07 <Sgeo> http:example.com/
03:43:12 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:44:50 <Fiora> geez the white dwarf/black hole gamma ray burst paper is really cool. it's amazing how like, tidal stretching of a white dwarf can steal energy from its orbit, letting it be orbitally captured
03:51:19 <Sgeo> http://www。example。com
03:52:37 <Bike> IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP?
03:53:11 <Sgeo> Book said that most modern browsers treat them identically to . in the hostname of the URL but not elsewhere in the URL
03:53:34 <Fiora> that... that's... that's really weird
03:54:34 <Sgeo> Something to do with being easier to type on the Chinese keyboard
03:56:38 <Sgeo> "In IDNA-aware (IDNA2003) applications, the "dot" character we see in domain names like www.example.com has several equals. Specifically the following characters are all equivalent under IDNA rules:"
03:56:47 <Sgeo> Thought it was just an arbitrary thing
03:59:41 <Sgeo> http:\\example.com (won't work with Firefox probably)
04:00:02 <Fiora> it seems to work in chrome?
04:00:13 <Jafet> http:\\\\example\.com
04:00:47 <Sgeo> Jafet, that one did not work for me in Chrome
04:01:07 <Sgeo> Fiora, Chrome != Firefox
04:01:10 <Bike> Isn't this part of the URI RFC, not the web standards...?
04:02:59 <Bike> that's quite a character
04:03:31 <Fiora> sorry, I was just trying in another browser...
04:04:02 <Jafet> ⋚ LESS-THAN EQUAL TO OR GREATER-THAN
04:04:09 <Jafet> For when you just don't know
04:04:36 <Bike> i guess it says that you have an ordering on the objects?
04:07:26 <Bike> except we need a pile of symbols for it ofc
04:07:42 <Sgeo> http://example.com\@google.com/
04:08:42 <Sgeo> kmc, book seems to be out of date. It said that that would take me to example.com in browsers other than Firefox. In Chrome, I landed in Google
04:08:57 <Bike> That got me to example.com in my chrome.
04:09:19 <Sgeo> I think KDE tried interpreting it before sending it to Chrome
04:15:22 -!- ogrom has joined.
04:20:15 <kmc> talking about a building in london "that's the gherkin" "no, what's it really called" "it's really called the gherkin"
04:20:20 <kmc> pls confirm / deny, british ppl
04:20:31 <kmc> i mean i think it has another name but
04:20:34 <kmc> that's what people call it
04:24:20 <mnoqy> 30 St Mary Axe (informally also known as "the Gherkin" and previously the Swiss Re Building)
04:28:24 <Sgeo> I think zzo38 would not like this book
04:28:54 <Sgeo> "... built-in support for the gopher: scheme, one of the failed predecessors of the Web..."
04:29:09 <Fiora> http://gamasutra.com/view/news/190865/Peter_Molyneux_may_have_just_monetized_trolling.php molyneux
04:30:57 <mnoqy> curiosity is amazing in that i guess people actually play it?
04:31:03 <mnoqy> and pay money on it?
04:31:10 <mnoqy> i dont understand anything
04:31:41 <Fiora> literally. adding a feature. to pay. to /reverse other peoples' progress/
04:35:55 <kmc> St Andrew Undershaft
04:50:51 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:54:11 <Fiora> kmc: also did you get to the snes coprocessor reverse engineering thing
04:54:19 <Fiora> um, since you read the gbc rom thing
05:28:14 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
05:37:44 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:37:52 -!- Bike has joined.
05:44:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:44:55 -!- augur has joined.
05:46:09 -!- Bike has joined.
05:55:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:56:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:56:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
05:56:51 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:57:38 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
05:59:07 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
06:32:02 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
06:32:26 -!- ogrom has joined.
06:42:09 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:46:15 -!- lambdabot has joined.
06:51:47 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
06:56:24 -!- lahwran has changed nick to lahwran-.
06:56:25 -!- lahwran- has changed nick to lahwran.
08:04:15 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
08:04:43 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:08:48 -!- lambdabot has joined.
08:08:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:13:50 -!- nooodl has joined.
08:16:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:20:36 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
08:20:40 <Taneb> kmc, the crypto chaps have emailed me back
08:23:38 <pikhq_> Random spurts of insomnia are fun.
08:25:43 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
08:30:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:40:50 -!- Zerker has joined.
09:03:15 -!- nooodl has joined.
09:51:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
10:07:54 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:07:59 -!- DH____ has joined.
10:10:23 <shachaf> Taneb: You should change xchat to use "nick: message" rather than "nick, message"
10:10:50 <Taneb> shachaf, a) why and b) I don't know how
10:11:15 <Taneb> (b is now incorrect)
10:11:16 <shachaf> a) because : is better and b) it's in the preferences somewhere
10:23:20 <Jafet> shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: []
10:24:52 <Taneb> shachaf: is this better
10:26:47 <ais523> I actually got shouted at for using colons on a different IRC-like system
10:26:56 <ais523> but that's because the default client uses colons to say who said a message
10:27:02 <ais523> e.g. ais523: not <ais523>
10:27:08 <ais523> so talking to someone with colons looks like you're quoting them
10:27:44 <shachaf> ais523: Different systems are different.
10:29:02 <Zerker> ais523: but that's because the default client uses colons to say who said a message | woe be to us with nonstandard IRC clients
10:29:17 <ais523> Zerker: you quote with |?
10:29:43 <Zerker> When on a single line, yes
10:30:03 <Zerker> stuff here | separate stuff here
10:30:12 <AnotherTest> Zerker: is the analogy with pipe-lining a coincidence?
10:31:19 <Zerker> Not completely intentional, but it does somewhat fit the idea of "appending to this in the history, "
10:33:50 -!- carado_ has joined.
10:39:08 <fizzie> I used to use a ; -- it's a nice compromise, neither "the commists" nor "the coloners" like it.
10:56:04 -!- ogrom has joined.
11:10:43 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:13:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:26:26 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
11:28:17 <mroman_> forkIO $ C.evaluate (length output) >> putMVar outMVar ()
11:34:30 <Taneb> I'm trying to follow today's irregular webcomic, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the practical in the first paragraph
11:34:35 <Taneb> I think I'm too clumsy
11:34:44 <Taneb> Can I skip it without getting too confused?
11:36:06 <shachaf> I have skipped every single irregular webcomic.
11:36:20 <shachaf> I am confused, but not about irregular-webcomic-related matters.
11:37:19 <shachaf> Why are you back to commas?
11:37:32 <Taneb> maybe I typed it out manually to annoy you
11:42:23 <mroman_> Does anybody of you guys know make?
11:42:36 <mroman_> Can I specify a list OBJECTS = foo.o foo2.o
11:42:38 <Jafet> make is a cool guy.
11:43:04 <olsner> make doesn't have lists, the only data type is the string
11:43:04 <mroman_> and have a traget which uses that variable do compile the *.c files?
11:43:27 <pikhq_> mroman_: Here's the easy way:
11:43:41 <pikhq_> That's... the whole thing.
11:49:19 <mroman_> I'm pretty sure I need dollars.
11:49:32 <fizzie> prog: $(OBJECTS), if you like.
11:49:44 <fizzie> You can make an explicit pattern-rule like $(OBJECTS): %.o: %.c with whatever commands you like, if you don't like the defaults.
11:50:33 <fizzie> (Done like that, it'll only apply to the objects in $(OBJECTS).)
11:50:49 <mroman_> Currently I have $(OBJECTS) = foo.o foo2.o foo3.o ...
11:50:57 <mroman_> and FOR EVERY foo I have a
11:51:20 <mroman_> And I gets annoying to do that for every foo
11:51:25 <pikhq_> That's very unnecessary.
11:51:28 <fizzie> Well, you can replace that with $(OBJECTS): %.o: %.c\n\t$(CC) ... yes.
11:51:38 <fizzie> But if it uses $(CC) it's probably just as well if you use the default rule.
11:51:46 <fizzie> For making anything.o out of anything.c.
11:52:10 -!- Koen_ has joined.
11:54:13 <mroman_> fizzie: And in what variable is the name of the file?
11:54:36 <fizzie> $@ is the output, and $< is the first prereq. But why *are* you writing it manually?
11:54:48 <fizzie> The default %.o: %.c rule in my make is $(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(CPPFLAGS) $(TARGET_ARCH) -c -o $@ $< -- that ought to be enough for anyone.
11:58:40 <mroman_> fizzie: Because it's easier @manually
11:58:46 <mroman_> easier than using autoconf and shit.
11:58:55 <fizzie> You don't need to use any "shit".
11:59:15 <fizzie> Make itself has that default %.o: %.c rule in place.
12:00:21 <fizzie> You can just write prog: foo.o bar.o as the entire contents of your Makefile, and it'll use the default rules to make foo.o and bar.o from foo.c and bar.c, then link them together.
12:04:08 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
12:16:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
12:19:35 -!- Taneb has joined.
12:34:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
12:39:41 <Taneb> The real question is, what am I going to do with 60 freddo bars
13:04:54 <Taneb> Chocolate bars in the shape of frogs
13:19:38 <Taneb> Well, I suck at vectors
13:26:57 -!- ogrom has joined.
13:32:27 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)).
13:33:11 <Taneb> Vectors? they're pretty expensive
13:35:51 <Taneb> (the mathsy ones. not mosquitoes)
13:36:03 <Taneb> (although I suck at mosquitoes too)
13:36:09 <Taneb> (or do they suck at me?
13:42:11 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
13:42:28 <Taneb> I'm trying to work out what (x-1)/5=(y-6)/6=(z+3/-7 is trying to tell me
13:46:15 <Taneb> The question is which line
13:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the one that contains (1,6,-3) and has direction (5,6,-7) i guess
13:47:37 <Taneb> Thank you, mysterious scottish gentleman
13:51:38 -!- ais523 has quit.
14:09:30 * Sgeo 's facebook status:
14:09:31 <Sgeo> 'If you ever want to read a terrifying horror novel, you can't go wrong with a book on the design of the web and web security.'
14:10:17 <Taneb> Sgeo: I've got a book from 2002 or 2003 about how web standards are awesome and XHTML 2 is gonna be great
14:14:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:24:01 <Sgeo> Can I simply... buy episodes of Doctor Who somewhere?
14:24:07 <Sgeo> Rather than pirating, I mean
14:24:15 <Sgeo> But ideally just as convenient now that I have money
14:24:19 <Sgeo> (Or preferably more convenient)
14:24:36 <Taneb> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=doctor+who
14:24:58 <Sgeo> Didn't mean DVDs
14:25:01 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
14:26:08 <Sgeo> Found the ep I want
14:28:39 <Sgeo> (I missed last night's ep on the TV)
14:37:07 <Sgeo> "The Flash Player Plugin in Chrome removed support for Digital Rights Management (DRM) in Linux as part of the upgrade from 11.3 to 11.4. This upgrade was bundled with the latest Chrome 22 update for Linux. If you applied the Chrome update, you are no longer able to watch DRM-protected content, such as movies and TV episodes. Trailers are unaffected as they do not use DRM. To get around this issue, you can use a different browser, such as Fir
14:37:07 <Sgeo> efox. For information on Chrome and the Flash Player plug-in, see:"
14:38:49 <Sgeo> (Or just disabling the Chrome builtin flash player works)
14:39:05 <kmc> i had problems with DRM'd content on Hulu ("error code 2203") and fixed it by apt-get install hal libhal1
14:39:48 <Sgeo> Sorry, the term 'hal' is a swear term to me
14:44:04 <kmc> i'm sorry, i can't do that dave
14:44:16 <kmc> > map succ "HAL"
14:46:48 <Sgeo> There's a format thing called hal
14:47:00 <Sgeo> And the library we're using to emit it majorly sucks
14:51:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:52:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I have the excuse that it was cheap
14:52:50 <Taneb> If anything, I've got some really bargain kindling
14:53:24 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:53:49 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I do if kmc recommends the book
14:54:04 <Sgeo> Also now that I have money that I can just... use, I'm far more willing to buy stuff
14:54:40 <Sgeo> I also bought the latest ep. of Doctor Who, although I could have pirated it
14:54:47 <Sgeo> Need to go watch it now
14:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> so given the choice between two stupid things you did the stupider of the two
14:55:48 <Sgeo> I did the more ethical of the two. Which also has benefits of not needing to deal with shitloads of popups
14:57:40 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
14:58:26 <AnotherTest> Why does Phantom_Hoover keep implying that kmc makes a lot of money by advertising various things in here?
14:58:59 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have proof for this?
15:01:05 <AnotherTest> so, what makes you think that he makes a lot of money?
15:02:46 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: Well you said "because it's true" after I said that you said/implied that kmc makes a lot of money through advertisements... so...
15:04:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: Bible camp's cancelled. | I am making the world better by TRANSFORMING THE TIME CUBES into TIME TESSERACTS | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | httpI ://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:04:45 <Taneb> Didn't the time cube guy die of cancer or something
15:06:36 <Sgeo> "Ignorance is... what's the opposite of bliss?"
15:08:07 <elliott> giving money to moffat is not ethical!
15:08:11 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: you won't understand it even if you read about it
15:08:23 <Taneb> AnotherTest: some guy went insane
15:09:01 <Taneb> He offered a $10000 prize if anyone could prove him wrong
15:11:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Nobody can prove it wrong because nobody can understand it
15:12:02 <AnotherTest> well maybe the guy who made it up doesn't understand it either?
15:12:51 <ThatOtherPerson> If Taneb is right and he is crazy, it probably makes perfect sense to him.
15:12:55 <ThatOtherPerson> Did I mention that http://www.timecube.com is blocked in Saudi Arabia?
15:14:26 <AnotherTest> Saudi Arabia doesn't want their citizens to get trolled?
15:15:30 <AnotherTest> s/citizens/inhabitants unless you can use citizens for a country
15:18:09 <elliott> pretty sure kmc knows about time cube
15:19:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_motnahP.
15:19:58 -!- Phantom_motnahP has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:22:00 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:36:03 <elliott> it seems to be worth a billion dollars again
15:37:26 <AnotherTest> bitcoin is like a self-re-inflating-bubble elliott
15:37:52 <AnotherTest> My guess is that it will continue like this for quite a while
15:40:38 <AnotherTest> but I'm not an economist so don't take seriously what I'm saying
15:45:15 <Sgeo> elliott, Aftran likes Moffat
15:50:28 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
15:53:38 -!- kyyni has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:56:45 <Sgeo> Also, buying on Amazon gives me closed captioning
15:59:09 <FireFly> Linguistics is dangerous business
15:59:17 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
15:59:27 <HackEgo> 423) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
15:59:39 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 38) <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly \ 65) <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <Aftran> I get that feeling too. \ 116) <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be
16:00:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17050
16:01:48 <HackEgo> 1007) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
16:02:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24815
16:03:27 <FireFly> fungot: I hear killer bunnies are tricky to get rid of
16:03:28 <fungot> FireFly: hrm... i should've noted better... ' par' there is multiplied by phi in a convergent manner. for example,
16:03:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
16:04:16 <FireFly> I don't think I remember fungot's prefix
16:04:16 <fungot> FireFly: it's pretty amusing that you use the y combinator.
16:04:30 <FireFly> fungot: well how else am I supposed to recurse?
16:04:31 <fungot> FireFly: i'm going to implement a new arithemetic operation for my compiler
16:04:37 <HackEgo> 1020) <itidus21> :D :D oh man.. i wonder if they ever made chess variants based off of animes
16:04:39 <FireFly> fungot: sounds like a plan!
16:04:40 <fungot> FireFly: and both accounts are serialized, as a student
16:04:53 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen itidus21 ever
16:06:15 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
16:06:42 <fizzie> fungot: What's up, Cloud?
16:06:42 <fungot> fizzie: i knew this day and they're really going to go on the other girl is...
16:06:59 <fungot> FireFly: so barret caught him and sephiroth. we'll give it a try. little by little, okay? hmmm? are the shinra's doing. we was close ever since then, what are you doing, profes......
16:07:31 <Jafet> Does fungot's script literally include ......
16:07:31 <fungot> Jafet: professor gast. i never count my chickens before they attack in full force! losing... control... i'd get into trouble.)
16:08:22 <fizzie> Jafet: output.txt:What are you doing, Profes...... I mean, honey?
16:08:32 <fizzie> output.txt:I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo...
16:09:04 <fizzie> There are a lot of dots in it.
16:09:08 <Jafet> I don't remember the script being that saucy, either
16:09:28 <Jafet> Now fungot will tell us all about him and sephiroth
16:09:29 <fungot> Jafet: ( why you... right?
16:09:30 <FireFly> fungot: do you feel dotty?
16:09:30 <fungot> FireFly: gggggggh....? my long sleep has given me time to argue with you. can we handle it?
16:09:53 <FireFly> fungot: I doubt *you* could handle that
16:09:54 <fungot> FireFly: don't tell barret what i need a group leader for our next promotion! you messing with the mako energy...
16:11:37 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be messing with no mako energy.
16:11:37 <fungot> fizzie: you only get ' em.
16:11:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:11:54 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
16:12:03 <FireFly> fungot: d'you think this was a bad idea?
16:12:03 <fungot> FireFly: from: mr i think that
16:15:37 <olsner> fungot: don't you just love all the botspam?
16:15:37 <fungot> olsner: the irony of this is unfair and insulting. you just had to spend a month ( if they patented that idea? ( y)
16:16:37 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: list, though i believe the proper way to kill other existing languages, and wouldn't accept the entire internet!
16:17:35 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:20:10 <mroman_> That's a lot of spam accounts created :)
16:32:59 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
16:35:20 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
16:36:12 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
16:37:43 <tswett> I dunno, I don't care for that one. Let's delete it.
16:39:37 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
16:39:48 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:57:27 <Taneb> elliott: you'll be interested to know that in the #esoteric Dwarf Fortress, we actually have a big black cock
16:58:50 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: yes
16:59:55 <elliott> is the first year over yet
17:00:07 <Taneb> Nah, my computer is playing up
17:00:10 <Taneb> It's late winter, though
17:29:39 -!- Bike has joined.
17:33:49 * Sgeo wonders how video ads are secured
17:34:06 <Sgeo> Maybe the real video can't be streamed until x seconds after ad sent?
17:35:34 <Bike> https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/323541419023290369
17:38:58 <elliott> hey Bike. read all these papers for me.
17:39:56 <Fiora> Bike: libertarians are the best parodies of libertarians
17:41:17 <Bike> Fiora: i had to look it up because i had a hard time believing they'd be that nuts but welp.
17:42:58 <elliott> The path “structure” is actually best left unbundled, with each component being
17:43:02 <elliott> passed as a separate argument to definitions and theorems, as there is no one-to-
17:43:05 <elliott> one relation between any of the components (there can be multiple paths with the
17:43:08 <elliott> same starting point and relation, and conversely a given sequence can be a path
17:43:11 <elliott> for different relations). Because it depends on all the other components, only the
17:43:14 <elliott> axiom pP needs to be passed around explicitly; type inference can figure out T ,
17:43:17 <elliott> e, x0 and p from the type of pP , so that in practice the entire path “structure”
17:43:20 <elliott> can be assimilated to pP .
17:43:22 <elliott> man i'm not so sure this is a good idea you guys
17:43:25 <elliott> oh that was a lot of lines.
17:43:38 <Bike> is this homotopy type theory shit
17:43:53 <elliott> i don't try understanding HoTT stuff
17:47:11 <elliott> While this unbundling allows for maximal flexibility, it also induces a prolif-
17:47:14 <elliott> eration of arguments that is rapidly overwhelming.
17:47:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
17:47:16 <elliott> yes thank you that is what i was thinking.
17:50:24 <Taneb> I just almost killed my computer taking the let a x = (x,x); etc thing one level too far
17:51:17 <Bike> a billion laughs
17:54:27 <elliott> hm maybe coq modules are good for this sort of stuff.
17:56:17 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:02:43 <kmc> perhaps coq modules will fix your makefile
18:04:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:04:42 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
18:12:24 <Jafet> > let f = join (,) in f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f x
18:12:45 <Jafet> > let f = join (,) in f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f x
18:12:46 <lambdabot> ((((((((x,x),(x,x)),((x,x),(x,x))),(((x,x),(x,x)),((x,x),(x,x)))),((((x,x),...
18:14:42 <elliott> wow this paper does such weird things.
18:17:29 <Jafet> @google workshop on the homotopy theory of homotopy theories
18:19:16 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 great language there
18:21:51 <elliott> bad languages are created all the time
18:22:20 <elliott> the best thing you can do is make good new languages
18:23:52 <AnotherTest> elliott: the languages are not worse than usual, it's the articles I think
18:24:20 <AnotherTest> People create articles before they even have a language (regardless of how good the language is)
18:24:54 <elliott> well http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 specifies the language completely, it doesn't take many bits to convey all the information a brainfuck equivalent has and the reference is clear
18:25:06 <elliott> still I've seen other articles with less detail than both
18:25:20 <elliott> like ones that just say "Blah is a language." and have no other info than a dead link
18:26:22 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm not entirely convinced what "It's alright" means
18:27:27 <elliott> it's what you substitute the brainfuck commands with...
18:27:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:28:07 <Jafet> I can actually see myself using or implementing it, compared to say MEBFFYBFF
18:28:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:28:21 <Jafet> And it's not trivial like HQ9
18:28:51 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:28:56 <elliott> well if you understand its novelty (i.e. have heard revolution 9) and are used to brainfuck derivatives then I think it's pretty clear :P
18:29:41 <AnotherTest> elliott: I have heard about both, unfortunately
18:29:44 <kmc> it is a fine... joke language
18:30:08 <kmc> itt we are Don Draper listening to Tomorrow Never Knows and we do not approve
18:30:18 <Bike> i actually like revolution 9 the song. sorry not sory
18:30:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Now I can create a page about my new "language" created by substituting random characters for the bf commands!
18:30:49 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: I don't think the creator had an account
18:30:50 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:30:58 <Sgeo> Why does NetFlix only have 6 season of new Doctor Who?
18:31:21 <olsner> Sgeo: they want to drive you to piracy
18:31:25 <AnotherTest> More like "I found out about this wiki where you can create your own language by replacing a bunch of languages"
18:32:05 <elliott> revolution 9 is p good imo
18:32:07 <Sgeo> Also, NetFlix doesn't support Linux
18:32:09 <Sgeo> aljksdhfklajhsdfljkadhfklajsdfhkasjdfh
18:32:10 <Sgeo> a;ouwehfiauehfuihfiuaefhawef
18:32:39 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: what does that program do in your language?
18:33:23 <olsner> makes season 7 of doctor who available on netflix?
18:33:27 <Sgeo> It flips out and maims whoever came up with the idea of DRm
18:34:08 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:35:25 <pikhq_> Hmm. 加引右左初終入出 <- That looks to me like a perfectly reasonable Brainfuck derivative.
18:35:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:35:56 <Jafet> @google chinese BASIC
18:35:57 <lambdabot> http://www.1jn.com/chinese/conversation.html
18:35:58 <lambdabot> Title: Mandarin Chinese Basic Conversation
18:36:03 <Jafet> @google chinese BASIC programming
18:36:03 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_BASIC
18:36:04 <lambdabot> Title: Chinese BASIC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:37:11 <pikhq_> I'm a little impressed they were able to get the IME logic on an Apple II.
18:37:17 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:37:38 <AnotherTest> what about <>+-.,[] instead of ][,.-+<> just for fun
18:37:45 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
18:37:59 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:38:48 <fizzie> Apple ][, the computer that has unbalanced brackets.
18:39:19 <Jafet> The computer [Apple ][] under discussion
18:48:05 <pikhq_> Input Method Editor. Program used for inputting languages with nontrivial input requirements, like Chinese.
18:49:15 <AnotherTest> someone please create GBE (Generic Brainfuck Equivalent)
18:50:04 <AnotherTest> No just a way to stop people from making more brainfuck equivalents
18:51:20 <tromp_> is it equivalent if it works on bits instead of bytes?
18:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> my stance continues to be that we should just replace all the bf substitutions on the wiki with a big table of what they rename everything to
18:54:12 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:55:08 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:56:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:56:34 <Fiora> maybe someone could make a language that generates bf derivatives?
18:57:17 <Sgeo> I made a language that is interesting to implement BF derivatives in, if that helps
18:59:41 <ThatOtherPerson> how about a bf derivative where the commands are replaced by the nicks of the eight people who have been most active in this channel in the last two weeks?
18:59:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:07:10 <elliott> Fiora: it should have functionality for automatically posting them on the wiki
19:07:36 <kmc> ##crypto is pretty good
19:07:59 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: i already proposed a BF derivative based on complaints in #esoteric about BF derivatives
19:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i came up with a bf derivative based on xkcd references
19:15:38 <FireFly> A BF derivative generator that updates based on the date would be a nice addition to the wiki
19:15:57 <FireFly> "today's daily BF derivative is..."
19:16:31 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: here at mit-ai, so i trundle off to a system mailbox may be related) that mail for thyrsus.com should be
19:18:52 <Taneb> Okay, who wants the fortress
19:19:03 <Taneb> elliott: Phantom_Hoover: monqy(?)
19:19:27 <kmc> yeah channel about cryptography
19:19:31 <kmc> which i joined the other day
19:19:37 <nooodl> i wanna look at the fortress
19:20:01 <nooodl> imo someone stream dwarf fortress, or take some screenshots
19:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i do not foresee this being an easy process and i have a pile of other things i should be doing but am not
19:21:57 <Taneb> nooodl: I did for a bit
19:22:21 <AnotherTest> kmc: are you sure you are not secretly being paid for sharing this :p?
19:28:53 <Taneb> So, who wants this fortress
19:30:30 <kmc> yes the IRC channel ##crypto has mad bankroll and is desperate for new people to join and is paying me to shill in other channels
19:32:22 <kmc> they've implemented a SHA256 preimage attack and are minting mad coin
19:33:56 <Fiora> wouldn't they need to break ECDSA too?
19:34:09 <Taneb> Screw this, I'm emailing this thing to elliott
19:34:59 <kmc> Fiora: not if the goal is just to mine super quickly
19:35:03 <kmc> if you want to steal other people's money then yes
19:35:06 <Fiora> ohhhhh for mining, not breaking the protocol
19:35:24 <AnotherTest> well if you could mine really fast you'd essentially break bitcoin
19:35:26 <copumpkin> man, can't get away from the bitcoin talk
19:35:34 <Fiora> we'd know if that happened though, right? since who mines what is publicly tracked
19:35:42 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: wait it's a digital file right, can't it be copied and shared among a multitude of people?
19:35:46 <AnotherTest> hey, what if I used my local supercomputer
19:36:02 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: it hasn't compressed very well
19:36:11 <Fiora> (since like right now it's mostly mining pools and stuff)
19:36:20 <copumpkin> Fiora: you get a bitcoin address that receives the mining incentive on each block
19:36:36 <Fiora> yeah, but like, most of the mining goes through pools... though I guess they could sign up for pool accounts, too
19:36:36 <ThatOtherPerson> What happens to bitcoin when rather effective quantum computers are invented?
19:36:54 <Fiora> is there a quantum break in ECDSA?
19:37:04 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: then all bitcoins have been mined
19:37:23 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography#Quantum_computing_attacks ... ooh. it looks like there is
19:37:32 <kmc> SO HOW ABOUT THEM BITCOINS
19:37:45 <Fiora> kmc: so like, if someone broke ECDSA but not SHA256, could they forge transactions?
19:38:06 <Taneb> What if someone buys an old salt mine and fills it with supercomputers and actually turns it into a bitcoin mine
19:38:21 <Taneb> elliott: what's your favourite compression format
19:38:56 <elliott> Taneb: um i guess xz is fine
19:39:05 <Taneb> TOUGH YOU ARE GETTING GZ
19:39:38 <kmc> Fiora: yeah I think so
19:40:06 <Taneb> elliott: check your inbox
19:40:33 <Fiora> kmc: now you have to start a thing about how bitcoins will die when quantum computers come out
19:40:45 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "_@"
19:40:57 <Taneb> Fiora: play dwarf fortress
19:41:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:41:05 <Fiora> I have like no idea how to play dwarf fortress at all
19:41:15 <Fiora> I was maybe going to play some star ocean
19:41:29 <Bike> beards everywhere
19:41:30 <Taneb> Best thing about dwarf fortress is how easy and intuitive it is
19:41:42 <Bike> exotic life tailored to swim through facial hahir
19:41:53 <elliott> the key to dwarf fortress is realising taht nobody has any idea how to play it
19:42:07 <Taneb> If you want to make a steel sword, you combine steel and coal in a metalsmith's workshop
19:42:41 <Taneb> You get steel by combining iron, some form of flux stone (eg, chalk or marble), and coal in a forge
19:43:10 <Bike> so far this is minecraft
19:43:14 <Taneb> You get iron by combining some form of iron ore (eg, haematite) with coal in a forge
19:43:20 <Vorpal> Apart from the flux stone
19:43:52 <Taneb> You get coal either by combining either lignite or bituminous coal with coal in a forge
19:43:54 <Vorpal> Bike, are you saying DF plays like MC? Very different games.
19:44:04 <Taneb> Or by manipulating wood in a ashmaker's workshop
19:44:11 <Taneb> By the way, you actually do none of this
19:44:20 <Taneb> You have a bunch of dwarfs to do it for you!
19:45:21 <Vorpal> DF is kind of unique. There are elements from a lot of different types of games in it. I can't think of good game to compare it with.
19:45:33 <Taneb> Also, it scorns the confusion of modern graphics and uses a replica of Code page 437 by default
19:45:39 <Vorpal> Maybe The Sims, what with everyone getting angry and so on.
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like minecraft except all you can do is suggest things to a bunch of hairy alcoholics who would much rather kill each other with a silk dress than do what you say
19:45:54 <Fiora> I heard it had something about cats
19:46:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so a mix of The Sims and minecraft then?
19:46:16 <Taneb> Fiora: dwarfs looooooove cats
19:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except a lot more fun than SIms
19:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> also they harbour framerate-destroying cats from your butcher
19:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> (not as bad these days because you can stick all the cats in a little room and fill it with lava)
19:46:56 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: the dwarfs can make ice bridges over lava rivers
19:47:10 <Fiora> this doesn't sound like a fun game
19:47:49 <Taneb> Fiora: it mentions fun in its motto!
19:47:49 <Vorpal> Completely off topic: Why is Forgotten Realms such a popular setting for video games? IMO Planescape for example is far more interesting.
19:47:58 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:48:04 <Taneb> Just like North Korea has an electric pylon in its coat of arms
19:48:06 <Vorpal> (for D&D video games that is)
19:48:22 <Taneb> Vorpal: maybe it's more iconic
19:48:34 <Taneb> elliott: can you confirm receipt
19:48:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, Hm, but what about Greyhawk then? That was the first published setting wasn't it?
19:49:14 <Taneb> Vorpal: I have no idea, I don't play D&D that much
19:51:05 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:51:15 -!- Bike has joined.
19:51:55 <ThatOtherPerson> I just realize I've spent most of my life visualizing the Land of Oz backwards
19:52:40 <Taneb> Arriving in the emerald city and ending up in munchkinland?
19:53:04 <ThatOtherPerson> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Map-of-Oz.jpg <-- I've always thought of Muchkin country being on the right and Winkie counry being on the left
19:55:08 -!- carado_ has joined.
19:56:26 <Taneb> I had no idea that was a thing people cared about
19:56:45 <fizzie> I had no idea people were spending appreciable amounts of time visualizing that.
19:56:58 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm not sure if they care about that; the picture just came as a shock to me
19:57:34 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, doesn't that depend on how you rotate the map?
19:57:56 <Vorpal> I never even thought about it before
19:58:36 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: well I obviously knew that Quadling Country was in the south and Gillikan Country was in the north
19:59:27 <Vorpal> I watched the movie once many years ago, when I was a child, and I thought "eh, it was okay"
20:01:00 <fizzie> I watched the new prequel (of sorts) the other month.
20:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? They made a new movie?
20:01:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oz_the_Great_and_Powerful
20:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> we really need to get Vorpal and FreeFull into a conversation someday and see which of them gets bored first
20:01:21 <Vorpal> The one I watched was a live action thing.
20:01:27 <ThatOtherPerson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms <-- I clicked "personal campaign"
20:01:41 <ThatOtherPerson> which led to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_universe
20:01:52 <fizzie> I mean, I'm sure there's more than this 2013 one and "the movie", too.
20:01:59 <Vorpal> Well that was a useless link
20:03:42 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, "personal campaign", it links to "fictional universe"
20:03:53 <Vorpal> Which is far more general
20:06:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OTdV well that's quite a few.
20:06:38 <Vorpal> Hm, how is it useful? The definition of a "personal campaign" in this context would be "a role playing setting that is not published, instead being created by a person for a group of friends". The linked page doesn't talk about that as far as I can find.
20:06:50 <olsner> hmm, is that the canonical map of the fictional universe?
20:07:01 -!- mroman_ has left.
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> personal campaign obviously means the campaign a group run inside an established setting
20:07:27 <Taneb> Shouldn't Wicked be in that list?
20:08:40 <fizzie> Taneb: If you mean Wicked (musical), it's in a separate category of "The Wicked
20:09:13 <fizzie> There's also a "Reimagining" category, containing e.g. Zardoz, of all things.
20:09:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, In this context it was Forgotten Realms before it has become an established setting. So not exactly no.
20:10:51 <fizzie> "The Exterminators worship the god Zardoz, a huge, flying, hollow stone head. Zardoz teaches: The gun is good. The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds, and makes new life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was, but the gun shoots death, and purifies the Earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth ... and kill!"
20:10:56 <fizzie> It's certainly... a reimagining.
20:13:34 <fizzie> Sean Connery is in it.
20:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> http://uashome.alaska.edu/~dfgriffin/website/zardoz.gif more of sean connery than anyone ever wanted
20:14:47 <fizzie> http://nerdsontherocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1974-zardoz-002-sean-connery.jpg there, see?
20:15:16 <fizzie> It has more saturation in it.
20:16:05 -!- copumpkin has quit.
20:19:25 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
20:20:28 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:22:34 -!- Bike__ has joined.
20:22:54 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:23:30 -!- Bike__ has changed nick to Bike.
20:25:21 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:30:59 <Vorpal> Oh yay, I just looked at HTML short tags again. Such a wonderful piece of history.
20:32:08 <Taneb> Vorpal: should I go to Manchester MCM
20:32:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, what on earth is that
20:32:38 <Taneb> It's a comic convention
20:32:59 <Vorpal> I have no opinion on the matter.
20:33:52 <Vorpal> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/dev/tests/shorttags2.html <-- Wow, lynx actually handles that
20:34:22 <Vorpal> I can't find anything else that does.
20:36:32 <fizzie> You weren't reading the SGML spec, perhaps.
20:36:43 <Bike> is there some polite way to tell a programmer i don't care about syntax or naming conventions, at least not enough to listen to talk about it for an hour
20:37:08 <fizzie> There seems to be a link to the spec mentioning the SGML construct, though.
20:37:27 <Gregor> Even if you remove "polite", still "nope".
20:37:40 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:37:41 <Fiora> Bike: maybe figure out a way to make that x87 guy stop talking about floating point rounding? XD
20:37:49 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, it is an incredibly obscure feature of HTML 4 and older.
20:37:59 <Bike> Fiora: impossible
20:38:08 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, Only lynx supports it that I know of
20:38:12 <fizzie> Well, that's no longer SGML-based.
20:38:12 <pikhq_> HTML 5 isn't SGML-based.
20:38:20 <pikhq_> Vorpal: links and friends also support it.
20:38:56 <pikhq_> But yeah. Pre-5, HTML was nominally SGML-based. But nobody actually parsed it that way.
20:39:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm I tried w3m it didn't
20:39:02 <fizzie> w3m doesn't seem to, a shame.
20:39:08 <Vorpal> guess I'll install links2
20:39:10 <Taneb> fizzie: validator.w3.org passes it
20:39:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, with a warning yes
20:39:31 <fizzie> Taneb: Given that it's their own page, you'd hope so.,
20:39:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, nope links2 does not handle it
20:39:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, it made the entire line a link
20:39:59 <Taneb> fizzie: apparently back in 2002 the W3C website sucked
20:40:27 <fizzie> w3m the browser doesn't have anything special to do with w3c, though.
20:40:59 <Vorpal> hey didn't w3c make a browser at one point? Started with A or something
20:41:10 <fizzie> elinks makes a link with the text "this text should be in a link</> while this text should not" in it.
20:41:16 <Sgeo> I didn't even notice the <p<a thing
20:41:30 <Vorpal> aha! http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
20:41:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wasn't that an editor?
20:41:46 <fizzie> I guess it might work as a browser too.
20:42:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, something something webdav?
20:42:57 <olsner> I think it was both? like a wysiwyg html editor thingy, back when people said wysiwyg
20:43:22 <Vorpal> Did someone ever "say" wysiwyg?
20:43:27 <fizzie> It's predecessor of sorts -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_(web_browser) -- seems to have been a pure browser.
20:43:28 <Vorpal> It is quite tricky to pronounce
20:43:37 <fizzie> I vaguely recall trying Amaya out.
20:44:12 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm, how is that tricky to pronounce?
20:44:39 <Taneb> Vorpal: whizzy wig?
20:44:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, oh yeah that would work
20:45:07 <Vorpal> Hm, I guess I just used to have problems pronouncing it
20:45:38 <olsner> maybe you had dyswysiwygia
20:45:50 <fizzie> All editors are WYGIWYG editors.
20:51:57 <Taneb> Why are train tickets so expensive here
20:52:22 <Taneb> Booking ages in advance, 61.40 from Hexham to Manchester
20:53:31 <fizzie> €25 or something from Nice to Geneva.
20:53:32 <olsner> because people booking ages in advance are the ones who are willing to pay a fortune just to be "sure"
20:54:09 <fizzie> Ordering 50-60 days in advance in Finland gives you a 50% discount of the "default" price. (You can't order more than 60 days in advance.)
20:54:21 <fizzie> It's still kinda expensive, though.
20:56:08 <fizzie> Not quite *that* expensive, however; I think it was something like €40 (for the cheapest possible price) for almost twice that distance (Helsinki to Joensuu).
20:56:42 <fizzie> (€70 if you'd want to travel tomorrow.)
20:57:05 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:10:42 <Sgeo> Should I watch the Doctor Who movie?
21:12:48 <Taneb> Doctor Who and the Daleks?
21:12:55 <Taneb> Doctor Who: Invasion Earth?
21:13:18 <fizzie> Isn't that Daleks - Invasion Earth?
21:13:38 <Taneb> Something like that
21:14:05 <fizzie> Daktaklakpaks - Invasion Earth.
21:14:26 <Sgeo> The one with the 8th Doctor
21:14:33 <Taneb> Sgeo: so neither of those
21:14:42 <Taneb> shachaf: these colons are making me uncomfortable
21:14:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Star Control 3.
21:15:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:19:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, Star Control, isn't that an old PC game?
21:19:38 <Fiora> star control 2 is a wonderful game of wonderfulness
21:19:59 <Vorpal> oh yeah, that was the game with a open source HD thingy happening to it recently
21:21:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, I'm too young to remember the Star Control series. Seems like a cool concept though
21:21:10 <fizzie> It also has the very non-recent open source port (Ur-Quan Masters).
21:21:19 <Vorpal> especially the open source thing
21:21:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc there was a HD thing of that recently though
21:22:03 <Vorpal> The voice acting was pretty hilariously bad. Was that original?
21:22:27 <fizzie> The PC version didn't have any voice acting, so I wouldn't know.
21:22:37 <fizzie> Much of the port comes from the 3DO version, I believe, though.
21:22:51 <Vorpal> 3DO? Which one was that...
21:23:04 <Vorpal> One of the early CD systems supporting FMV?
21:23:11 <fizzie> They made a rather obscure CD-based console.
21:23:43 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how obscure it is, but it's not one of the big names.
21:23:44 <Vorpal> so around the time of CDi?
21:23:49 <Fiora> I'm way too young for it too, but there's an open source re-release called The Ur-Quan Masters
21:23:53 <Fiora> which is incredibly wonderful
21:24:07 <Fiora> great story, great aliens, great voices, fun gameplay, nonlinearness
21:24:10 <fizzie> Fiora: We've established that already, actually.
21:24:24 <Fiora> okay enough fangirling it's really good
21:24:38 <Fiora> I played it back in um... high school I think
21:24:53 <Vorpal> Does that game have any sort of time limit or such? It seems like the kind of game I would just spend ages exploring
21:25:21 <Fiora> it does have a time limit, about um... 5 in game years I think? it's pretty long, you can complete the game a lot faster than that, but it does limit you a little I guess
21:25:33 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't really like the time limit.
21:25:39 <Fiora> it's really a long time
21:25:45 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that UQM has an option to disable it, too.
21:25:47 <Vorpal> Well it is open source, shouldn't be hard to figure out
21:26:06 <Fiora> I don't think it's a big deal, I explored like crazy and still finished the game within the time limit
21:26:13 <Fiora> there's a plot related thing you can do to extend the time limit by a year, too XD
21:26:41 <Bike> get the mask guys to blow shit up, yeah?
21:26:43 <Fiora> I guess I kinda recommend a bit of a walkthrough for the game though, just so you have an idea of the things you have to do
21:26:49 <fizzie> Yes, the time limit is related to the story.
21:27:18 <Fiora> the time limit is because earth will be gone at that point if you don't save the universe.
21:27:21 <Fiora> no spoilers beyond that XP
21:27:50 <Fiora> also fwiffo is literally the best character ever in the history of ever
21:28:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, his voice acting was pretty terrible though
21:28:17 <Fiora> I loved it so much
21:28:23 <fizzie> Fiora: The guy in the office opposite to mine at the university has the Spathi theme music as his phone ringtone.
21:28:33 <Vorpal> Fiora, it was just so laughable.
21:28:36 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdsa5vrOLnI the voice acting is completely amazing
21:28:52 <fizzie> I should perhaps check out the HD version some day, the screenshots look quite nice.
21:29:01 <Vorpal> Also as a character, yes he was funny, but pretty shallow. Just a coward alien.
21:29:10 <Vorpal> No character development
21:29:29 <fizzie> The PC version has its soundtrack in S3M or some other mod format, and a couple of them are made by a Finnish guy.
21:29:37 <fizzie> (They've still got the instrument name comments &c.)
21:29:44 <Fiora> it's a silly space adventure game about meeting absurd alien species and saving the galaxy, I'm not sure one can expect that level of depth in individual characters XD
21:30:31 <fizzie> There is (was?) a soundtrack remix project going around, too, IIRC.
21:30:39 <Vorpal> Fiora, I just finished reading a Ps:T lets play (really really good writing and editing in it), so my mind is in a different kind of gear than "silly & shallow" atm
21:30:42 <fizzie> http://www.medievalfuture.com/precursors/main.php -- oh, there it is.
21:30:43 <Fiora> I think the game let you choose to install remixes instead of the main tracks?
21:31:34 <fizzie> One of the guys mentioned at the bottom of that page is the Finnish guy I spoke of.
21:31:56 <Bike> fizzie: c'mon, who didn't cry at admiral zex's solliloquoy
21:32:20 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the new Quasispace music was kind of bad, though.
21:32:40 <Vorpal> I can really recommend this if you have a lot of time left over: http://lparchive.org/Planescape-Torment/ (it is pretty long, 158 updates)
21:32:50 <Fiora> I think I'd rather play the game itself... I don't really like LPs
21:33:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, Better than playing the game IMO, since the combat in the game is pretty bad. The story is the good part of that game.
21:33:21 <Fiora> I played some of PS:T a while back but I'm kind of terrible with 2D infinity-engine-style games, they feel really dated and I feel bad about it >_<
21:33:47 <Sgeo> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods/SpaceJump.html
21:34:10 <Vorpal> Fiora, I heard the combat in Ps:T is especially bad, even compared to the other Infinity Engine games
21:34:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:34:25 <Vorpal> the story though... Also the sound track is amazing
21:35:01 <Bike> Sgeo: needs more lasers imo
21:35:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, first april joke?
21:36:00 <Vorpal> wait what, are they real? Is this something used by server side image maps or something?
21:36:17 <Sgeo> I think it was in HTTP 1.0 but not 1.1/
21:36:31 <Vorpal> Fiora, also fwiffo's voice gets annoying so quickly
21:36:34 <Sgeo> Well, not in 1.0
21:36:40 <Sgeo> But in a draft related to it
21:36:55 <olsner> apparently they're just different names for GET: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods/GetSearches.html
21:37:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I can't find anything related to those apart from those pages
21:39:41 <fizzie> There are mailing list posts referring to a "HTTP draft of 5 Nov 93" containing them.
21:40:39 <Vorpal> Fiora, I have taken to preferring LPs as of late. And I mean good LPs, made by people who know the game and will cut out and/or fast forward through grinding, not show off pointless deaths and so on. Because when it is done right, it adds something to the experience while removing or reducing the annoying parts of the game.
21:41:20 <Sgeo> "If the server responds this way [304 Not Modified] to an unconditional request, the result will be browser-specific and may be hilarious; for example, Opera will pop up a nonfunctional download prompt"
21:41:21 <Vorpal> Fiora, I have little interest in blind youtube LPs by people who never played the game before.
21:41:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, responds to what?
21:41:58 <Sgeo> An unconditional request. As in, no If-Not-Modified: or similar
21:42:11 <Vorpal> what happens in other browsers?
21:42:23 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
21:42:33 <Sgeo> Don't know; I'd love to try it
21:42:41 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Good LPs show stuff that you never thought of
21:42:49 <Vorpal> FreeFull, that too yes.
21:43:22 <Vorpal> FreeFull, The Ps:T LP I linked fulfill all of these requirements.
21:44:03 <Vorpal> FreeFull, Also it does something I never seen in an LP before. It uses a frame story
21:44:15 <Vorpal> Really interesting idea.
21:45:00 <Vorpal> And reasonably well executed in this case too. There is a bit of difference in skill level of the author between the start and the end of the LP though.
21:46:19 <Sgeo> Ah. As someone who's never played, should I watch that LP?
21:46:34 <Sgeo> If I want the story but don't particularly want to play
21:46:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, read. It is a SA LP, not a youtube one
21:47:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but yes I would recommend it. I liked it. Ps: T has one of the best stories, if not the best story, ever seen in video games, but the combat mechanics of it was pretty terrible.
21:47:25 <olsner> is it plane scape or plan escape?
21:47:27 <fizzie> I've read it; it was nice.
21:47:44 <Vorpal> olsner, Plane Scape I think. As in landscape
21:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, the LP? Or the book based on the game?
21:48:50 <Vorpal> IIRC I have that as a PDF, I bought a bundle of all the Infinity Engine games on GoG a year ago or so. There was a book version of Ps:T as an extra
21:49:22 <fizzie> I may have read (a stolen copy of) that too.
21:49:31 <Vorpal> I haven't read that PDF.
21:49:32 <hagb4rd> i|ve heard so much bout PT and its deep story, but i somehow didn|t feel comfortable with its visual theme..and so never really get into it
21:50:00 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, you mean the visual style? The twisted and worn out world?
21:50:37 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, I usually seen it written as PsT or Ps:T
21:50:38 <fizzie> Slightly similar stuff are the NWN2 LP's at lparchive, though they make much more with the funny.
21:51:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, NWN1 was a pretty light hearted game I thought. Well compared to Ps:T at any rate. No idea about NWN2.
21:51:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Mask of the Betrayer expansion is kind of Torment-y, actually.
21:51:56 <Vorpal> Also NWN1 took place in a relatively bright and colourful world, that cannot be said of Ps:T yet again.
21:52:10 <Vorpal> I played all the NWN1 expansions
21:52:31 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, the technology of the time man
21:52:42 <hagb4rd> yea and the concept of level editing
21:52:59 <Vorpal> Never tried the level editor really. It crashed in wine
21:53:02 <fizzie> There's a bit of plane-traveling going on, and it's not at all bright and happy.
21:53:05 <Vorpal> I do have NWN1 for linux though
21:53:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, ooh, I should find an LP of that expansion then
21:53:51 <fizzie> Well, http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/ then.
21:54:07 <fizzie> As a disclaimer, you might not like the style of it. Then again, you might.
21:54:09 <Vorpal> but I guess it was an expansion
21:54:31 <hagb4rd> it was pretty easy to use (100 times easier than the Level editor for skyrim), but it didn't allow much more than attaching that cubic tiles
21:54:35 <fizzie> There's a NWN2 LP from the same person, it uses the same player character as this one.
21:54:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, Hm almost all images? A lot of scrolling here it seems.
21:54:49 <fizzie> It's quite image-heavy, yes.
21:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, Not sure I'm a fan of that eh.
21:55:11 <fizzie> Anyway, there's certainly no need to read the NWN2 base-game one first, but there's a couple of back-references IIRC.
21:55:26 <Vorpal> so same as for the NWN1 expansions then
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Pretty much stand alone though there were a couple of references, especially in the one that took place in Waterdeep
21:56:00 <Vorpal> (like, same companions)
21:56:13 <Vorpal> iirc the floating city one was more standalone?
21:56:24 <Vorpal> man I forgot the name of the expansions
21:56:26 <fizzie> The LP also does "the evil path" re-run (that's the "The Truth" section) after it's finished.
21:58:22 <Vorpal> Hm is there any game like Ps:T when it comes to the story? I heard Bioshock Infinite has a great story, but poor combat too. Might wait for a good LP of that. None of those around yet.
21:58:52 <Vorpal> (Doubtful it will have the depth of Ps:T though.)
21:59:06 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, oh? I never played them
21:59:39 <Vorpal> Wasn't it the one were everyone were racist against elves of something?
21:59:45 <Vorpal> or was that Dragonage 2?
21:59:48 <fizzie> MotB's storyline is most Torment-y as far as themes and such go I've personally come across.
22:00:22 <elliott> i heard bioshock infinite has an awful story
22:00:39 <mnoqy> i heard bioshock infinite is a game
22:00:58 <fizzie> I've also heard that Arcanum has an interesting story, and an interestinger setting.
22:01:02 <hagb4rd> btw..here http://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=211.0
22:01:21 <mnoqy> something something controversey something i dont know anything about any of it
22:01:40 <Bike> Can someone give me an easy simple example of using an infinite list?
22:01:45 <Sgeo> "There are no good solutions to this problem yet; purging your browser cache after visiting Starbucks may be a very good idea."
22:02:08 <Sgeo> map (+1) [1..] you mean like that?
22:02:26 <Bike> well, except something "real" groan
22:02:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> i heard bioshock infinite has an awful story <-- really?
22:03:05 <mnoqy> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (drop 1 fibs) in take 10 fibs
22:03:16 <mnoqy> Bike: real enough for you????
22:03:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, worth taking a look at I guess. Wait... wasn't that the game Chris Avalone was doing an LP of or something?
22:04:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently that is true, though I hadn't heard anything about it before now.
22:04:49 <mnoqy> > zip [1..] "hello"
22:04:51 <lambdabot> [(1,'h'),(2,'e'),(3,'l'),(4,'l'),(5,'o')]
22:04:55 <elliott> > let fibs@(_:(zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = 0 : 1 : fibses in fibses
22:04:55 <mnoqy> Bike: another real example!!!
22:04:56 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,177...
22:05:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Based on some Googling around, MotB seems to be the game perhaps most often mentioned in "what else is like Torment" threads, FWIW.
22:05:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does he have time for it?
22:05:11 <Bike> mnoqy: thanks!!!
22:05:17 <mnoqy> elliott: viewpats??
22:05:20 <elliott> > let fibs@(_:((0 :) . (1 :) . zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = fibses in fibses
22:05:32 <elliott> > let fibs@ ~(_:((0 :) . (1 :) . zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = fibses in fibses
22:05:38 <elliott> mnoqy: BoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!
22:05:50 <elliott> i guess you can't really do it like that
22:05:53 <elliott> the original is good enough tho
22:06:06 <lambdabot> elliott says: I think lens is the first library I've seen that promises letting you write abstract totally-inefficient-looking compositional code and getting reliably good compilation which has
22:06:06 <lambdabot> actually delivered on that promise.
22:06:09 <lambdabot> elliott says: I think lens is the first library I've seen that promises letting you write abstract totally-inefficient-looking compositional code and getting reliably good compilation which has
22:06:09 <lambdabot> actually delivered on that promise.
22:06:11 <lambdabot> elliott says: > let fact ~(id &&& (fact . pred) -> (n,m)) = if n == 0 then 1 else n * m in fact 10
22:06:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently it was a Project Eternity stretch goal, or something?
22:06:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, just the style or the type of story too? (I.e. not "hero saving the world" but something a bit different, like Torments "protagonist finding who he is")
22:06:22 <elliott> why did someone add the first one as a quote anyway
22:06:23 <mnoqy> arrows and view patterns....
22:06:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Also at $4.0m Chris Avellone will be forced to play Arcanum." http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity
22:06:46 <elliott> the ~ can be dropped ther btw
22:07:07 <FreeFull> My implementation of factorial is O(inf)
22:07:27 <elliott> view pattern recursion is the future
22:07:30 <hagb4rd> also i've heard chrono trigger is very good when comes to story..but that's a _really_ old classic, so for retro fans only
22:07:46 <FreeFull> "For retro fans only" bullshit
22:07:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the Numenera one had one which forced Colin McComb make a video apology for writing 2nd-edition D&D Complete Book of Elves.
22:07:55 <elliott> what kinda definition of real old are we talking here.....
22:07:58 <elliott> i'd call like atari games "real old"
22:08:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay. Presumably there is a back story there? Did he not like the game or what? I guess the LP might be interesting though, with the chance of some comments on the game design from the game designer perspective.
22:08:09 <Bike> older than Christ's resurrection imo
22:08:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I saw that, didn't get the joke though.
22:08:27 <elliott> chrono trigger is newer than monkey island!!
22:08:30 <elliott> i guess monkey island is sorta retro
22:08:31 <fizzie> Apparently it was considered bad.
22:08:37 <elliott> only by a few months......
22:08:50 <mnoqy> i enjoyed chrono trigger when i played it does this make me a retro fan
22:08:51 <Vorpal> elliott, mmm CT was pretty good. So was Monkey Island.
22:08:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've read an Arcanum LP, too.
22:09:46 <fizzie> http://lparchive.org/Arcanum/ "screenshot, informative, humorous, narrative, co-op, completionist" well, that's often a good set of tags.
22:09:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:09:54 <fizzie> hagb4rd: Case-sensitive.
22:09:57 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:10:09 <fungot> hagb4rd: you! take! we find! marle too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear!
22:10:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, so is the LP worth reading?
22:10:54 <Vorpal> Quite picture heavy as well
22:11:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well... I did read all the way through it. You could try, say, the first chapter or three. It's written in quite a story-like fashion.
22:11:51 <Bike> it's where you watch someone else play a video game
22:12:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it gets a bit less picture-heavy later on. I mean, lots of scrolling, still, but more text in-between pictures.
22:12:13 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I have found very few good video letsplayers though. Most of them don't really know the game.
22:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, picture heavy is pretty bad when reading it on smaller devices on the go though.
22:13:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: I read... probably that Arcanum one, actually; or the NWN2 thing... largely on the N900. It was quite painful.
22:14:14 <fizzie> Especially if one wanted to start reading before it had finished loading.
22:14:45 <fizzie> Then again, the N900 doesn't have all that much muscle in it, compared to mobile devices these days.
22:15:20 <Vorpal> isn't the N900 tiny? The screen I mean
22:15:26 <Vorpal> At least I read it on an S3
22:15:31 <Vorpal> which is reasonably large
22:15:53 <fizzie> It's not *tiny*, it's just that new phones are huge and bulky.
22:16:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, but for something like this it would be tiny
22:16:15 <Vorpal> also I quite enjoy my S3
22:16:25 <Vorpal> don't want to go bigger than that though
22:17:26 <hagb4rd> y do i hate smartphones? i can't help myself
22:17:37 <fizzie> I suppose that's kind of small, compared to the now-usual 4-5" sizes.
22:20:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it was terribly dim in direct sunlight
22:21:04 <Vorpal> I did look at one for a couple of minutes last summer
22:21:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the N9 seemed much nicer in size
22:21:34 <Vorpal> I have seen one of those too
22:21:47 <Vorpal> (a guy at work had one)
22:22:36 <fizzie> It's also two years newer.
22:23:01 <fizzie> Spec pages say 3.9" vs. that 3.5".
22:23:38 <Vorpal> The Note 2 is silly-large for a phone though
22:23:47 <Vorpal> is that 6" or something?
22:24:40 <fizzie> It was somewhere around six, yes.
22:25:11 <fizzie> Oh, 5.55". Well, it still rounds up.
22:25:56 <fizzie> I hear it's technically a "phablet" if it's >= 5 and < 7.
22:26:09 -!- pwd has joined.
22:26:38 <fizzie> "Reuters called 2013, the "Year of the Phablet."[10]"
22:26:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, An S3 is 4.3 iirc?
22:26:54 <Vorpal> or something like that
22:26:55 <fizzie> Maybe 2014 will be Year of the Linux on Desktop.
22:27:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't think it will be 2013?
22:27:28 <fizzie> Well, if 2013 is already claimed by the Phablet...
22:27:37 <fizzie> I don't think you can be multiple.
22:28:00 <fizzie> Year of the Linux on Phablet.
22:28:10 <fizzie> (Didn't they come up with a release of Ubuntu Touch a while ago?)
22:28:24 <Vorpal> developer preview iirc
22:28:36 <Vorpal> quite far from release ready as I understood it
22:28:42 <Vorpal> most apps were dummy place holder icons
22:28:45 <elliott> Year of Linux on the Desktop is after Year of Everyone Stops Caring About Desktops
22:29:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As long as there are PC gamers there will be desktops
22:30:26 <Bike> what's a brainlink.
22:30:27 <mnoqy> what will it take for me to stop caring about desktops??? idk probably something amazing
22:30:58 <mnoqy> and does anyone still actually care about year of linux on desktop
22:31:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: how about ten super mega updates in a row
22:31:18 <shachaf> would you stop caring about desktops then
22:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: gamers don't count as people
22:32:02 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bynary is this someone from the channel having a go
22:32:06 <elliott> i'm watching you anothertest
22:32:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:32:18 <mnoqy> can you imagine actually calling yourself a "gamer" and being proud of it and
22:32:39 <zzo38> I think the log URL got mixed up somehow
22:32:54 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:33:00 -!- elliott has set topic: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:33:03 <mnoqy> what's this bynary thing it looks underdocumented
22:33:49 <mnoqy> whooaoaaaa lookit all these user creations
22:34:47 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tirage_oui_non_gratuit_horoscope_daily_free sweet it's in french
22:34:49 <fizzie> So many new esolang enthusiasts!
22:35:04 <fizzie> Truly 2013 will be the year of esolang on brain.
22:35:36 <mnoqy> "Tirage oui non gratuit horoscope daily free"
22:35:37 <Bike> the year of brainfuck on the desktop.
22:37:03 <Bike> the year of greetings to shachaf on the desktop
22:37:31 <shachaf> hey should i see the film _The Kind and I_ (1956)
22:37:43 <shachaf> hey should i see the film _The King and I_ (1956)
22:38:05 <Bike> yes you should see it, not yes if it's good. i dunno if it's good.
22:38:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: don't ask me i haven't ""seen it............
22:38:19 <shachaf> yesterday i saw _Anastasia_ (1956 film)
22:38:26 <Bike> is that prefix quote
22:38:44 <mnoqy> i think i've seen both of those films but ages ago so i don't remember them (RIP)
22:38:57 <shachaf> the question you must ask yourself mnoqy is.....are you good
22:39:14 <mnoqy> pff how should i know ALT pff no ALT pfffffffffffffffffffffffff
22:39:28 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=112
22:39:29 <mnoqy> alt -roll- alt :-) alt
22:39:57 <shachaf> that was a good super mega comics
23:01:39 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:11:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:16:53 <Sgeo> ,data:text/html,<plaintext><b>Hi there</b>
23:17:56 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
23:35:07 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:40:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:40:52 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
23:40:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:43:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:45:39 -!- pwd has quit.