00:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN PAUL GRAHAM'S HEAD: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/legendary-vc-paul-graham-suspects-bitcoin-was-created-by-a-government-cm238901#.UXR-JbXWQ45
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00:06:16 <Bike> yeah bitcoin is needed for black ops
00:09:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "I realize some of these explanations are pretty far fetched, but so is an individual cooking up bitcoin as an intellectual exercise
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00:11:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:12:28 <kmc> hi shachaf
00:17:04 <kmc> do you have any thoughts or ideas which may cheer me up
00:21:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
00:24:27 <kmc> I'm pissed off because I got fired and I feel I was treated poorly by the company
00:24:45 <kmc> the reason given by the founders doesn't make sense and they refuse to elaborate
00:25:43 <kmc> and my guess as to the real reason is infuriating if true
00:25:58 <kmc> and these are people who I respected and thought of as friends before now
00:26:17 <kmc> and also I'm dependent on them for practically any future job references because I worked with them at Ksplice as well
00:26:46 <kmc> and i'm generally bitter
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00:27:30 <kmc> and can't think of anything i want to do next
00:29:25 <Fiora> what do you guess the real reason is?
00:29:31 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
00:29:50 <kmc> thanks Fiora, shachaf, lambdabot
00:30:13 <shachaf> Surely there are other people at ksplice or that other company you worked at that you could ask?
00:31:20 <Fiora> I don't think future employers will really interrogate everyone you ever worked for... I think mostly they just want a simple reference to call to check you worked there...
00:32:59 <kmc> Fiora: the reason I suspect: they hired someone else at the same time as me, who turned out to be a bad employee, but they felt obliged to keep him because they'd convinced him to drop out of college to join them
00:33:11 <kmc> and my patience with him ran out before everyone else's
00:33:18 <kmc> so they got rid of me
00:35:03 <kmc> I wasn't very happy there but I was trying to make it work, and they were very accommodating up until one day i'm fired
00:35:15 <kmc> there wasn't any clear warning like "shape up or else"
00:35:38 -!- aloril has joined.
00:36:17 <kmc> i got a lot done, I was #2 in terms of commits with a 3x margin over the next person (I know this is a shitty metric, but it's objectively verifiable and probably indicates that I wasn't a complete slacker at least)
00:36:19 <Fiora> kmc: I guess the upside of that is that they don't hate you or anything, I imagine?
00:36:28 <kmc> i don't know! they won't tell me!
00:36:31 <Fiora> would you think they'd give you a bad recommendation out of spite?
00:36:38 <kmc> for all I know I did something horribly wrong and they just won't tell me
00:37:24 <kmc> all they'll say is that is was based on "carefully deliberating about how I was doing at [company] for many months"
00:37:43 <kmc> but I didn't receive any kind of warning or really much negative feedback at all during weekly meetings with my manager
00:38:54 <Fiora> that's... kind of really terrifying
00:39:02 <Fiora> just, out of nowhere, with no reason...
00:39:02 <kmc> i don't think they would give me a bad review out of spite but like... i don't know
00:39:09 <kmc> I thought I knew these people
00:39:14 <kmc> now I'm sure I don't
00:39:20 <Fiora> and nobody you knew there will say anything? >_<
00:40:28 <kmc> it wasn't totally out of nowhere, I was unhappy and they knew I was unhappy and I brought up various complaints, but like, I thought we were working on solutions
00:40:43 <elliott> kinda sounds like something personal tbqh
00:40:47 <elliott> but i don't know anything and you shouldn't listen to me
00:41:06 <kmc> yeah I don't know
00:41:13 <kmc> I tried to be civil even to this one person who I thought was a bad worker
00:41:25 <kmc> I may have failed
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00:42:33 * Lymia is implementing bfjoust for a program
00:42:43 <Lymia> I think this is the most hack-filled code I've ever written
00:42:56 <Lymia> Like... implementing ] as a 0 tick command, and, inserting a nop before each one >_>;
00:43:20 <elliott> kmc: i mean being completely opaque like that and refusing to elaborate is a pretty bad attitude, it doesn't really suggest to me that you might have done something legitimately awful (because then it would be very simple to point to it)
00:43:26 <elliott> but, again, previous disclaimer, I know nothing
00:43:58 <shachaf> i'm told that sometimes people are vague because they're worried about lawsuits and have nothing to gain from not being vague
00:44:02 <kmc> that's why I think it was basically "he's lost patience with this other guy, we have to keep the other guy, therefore we fire him"
00:45:25 <elliott> things i am learning: don't convince people to drop out to join your company
00:45:39 <mnoqy> things im learning: dont work at kmcs company
00:45:44 <mnoqy> dont work with people
00:45:49 <Fiora> I guess it could also be a bit of "it's easier to say nothing than to try to awkwardly try to dodge around things"
00:45:58 <Fiora> since they lose nothing by not talking to you
00:46:26 <shachaf> mnoqy: people are p. bad but maybe the alternative is worse??
00:46:40 <mnoqy> shachaf: maybe....
00:46:50 <Fiora> but. you're really good, you should be able to find something else... I'd hope...
00:47:41 <kmc> yeah I will be totally ok financially
00:47:45 <kmc> that's not the worry
00:48:27 <Fiora> you're just worried you were doing something wrong, you don't know what it is, and you might do it again and it's just unsettling and nerve-wracking?
00:48:33 <Bike> when you get fired don't you get like a two week grace period? or is that just for quitting
00:48:34 <kmc> there's that
00:48:44 <kmc> Bike: that's just for quitting and is also sort of optional
00:49:07 <kmc> in previous cases where I quit a job, I offered to stay for 2 weeks and they declined
00:49:28 <Bike> Fiora: the "oh, people i thought i knew" aspect seems more thingy
00:49:32 <kmc> also in most situations (and ianal etc) if you just quit on the spot they can be pissed off, they can give you a bad rec or whatever, but they can't come after you legally
00:49:32 <elliott> Bike: do you really think america would guarantee anything for workers
00:49:45 <Bike> elliott: i call it optimism
00:49:56 <olsner> oh, was this in america? then I retract my surprise
00:49:57 <mnoqy> differs by state right
00:49:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
00:50:14 <Bike> yeah i figured you might not get legal anything anyway because of startup everything
00:50:14 <kmc> elliott: well I think America actually does too much in terms of tying benefits to employment
00:50:15 <elliott> mnoqy: US minimum wage is something in the region of $0/hour right
00:50:26 <kmc> we should just have universal govt provided benefits and then let people do at will employment
00:50:27 <Fiora> it's like $8 (close enough?)
00:50:27 <shachaf> elliott: it's actually negative
00:50:33 <kmc> minimum wage varies a lot by state
00:50:43 <elliott> just fill out the sides and you've got a zero
00:50:45 <kmc> interestingly even in the states with higher minimum wage, cost of living more or less eats it up
00:50:47 <Bike> it's $9.something where I live. (highest in the country)
00:51:13 <shachaf> Well, cost of living varies a lot within a state too.
00:51:20 <kmc> http://blakefallconroy.com/18.html
00:51:29 <Bike> it's probably cheaper to live in my part of washington than it is to live in like seattle
00:51:50 <elliott> i don't even know where kmc is
00:51:59 <Bike> new england somewhere?
00:52:03 * Bike gestures vaguely
00:52:15 <kmc> massachusetts
00:52:18 <Fiora> I don't understand how anyone is expected to live on $8/hr around here, a single-bedroom apartment is like $1500/month
00:52:35 <kmc> Fiora: immigrants living 10 to an apartment
00:52:40 <kmc> that's how it is in NYC anyway
00:52:46 <kmc> Chinatown still has Chinese people because they are willing to do this
00:53:28 <kmc> as gas prices rise I wonder if McMansions in suburbia will become multi-family slum housing
00:53:38 <Lymia> (...{...}...{...}...)%n
00:53:40 <Lymia> Is illegal, right?
00:53:40 <Fiora> kmc: hopefully at least you have some friends out of work... even online?
00:53:46 <kmc> I have friends
00:53:54 <kmc> also I'm sure there are many wealthy Chinese people in Chinatown
00:53:56 <kmc> I shouldn't stereotype
00:54:22 <Fiora> haven't a lot of those already been abandoned? since, like, they were bought with subprime loans and so on
00:54:22 <kmc> o snap elliott
00:54:37 <kmc> depends on the area
00:54:37 <Bike> mcmansions are probably pretty good for squatting
00:55:03 <kmc> i think my parents' subdivision in Iowa is still mostly intact, it grew maybe a bit before the craziest part of the housing bubble, and also it's not like anyone's fever dream fantasy to move to Iowa
00:55:12 <kmc> compared to Nevada or Florida or California
00:55:37 <Bike> i live near some subdivisions that were under construction when the bubble hit, there are still plenty of empty places
00:55:51 <mnoqy> people want to move to nevada?
00:55:56 <Bike> also a "village" area that has some commercial zoning too, it's actually sad
00:56:09 <kmc> mnoqy: amazingly yes
00:56:19 <Fiora> kmc: the gap in prices between areas like that has always stunned me I mean, like, it makes sense, but -wow-
00:56:25 <elliott> in my mind nevada is just the world's biggest desert with las vegas stuck in the middle of it
00:56:31 <elliott> and both of those terrify me
00:56:33 <Fiora> you can get practically mansions for $200k in less desirable areas
00:56:36 <mnoqy> nevada is miserable
00:56:40 <Fiora> and in an expensive suburb area $200k is the price of a garage
00:56:42 <kmc> mnoqy: warm climate, no income tax
00:56:44 <elliott> i don't understand how vegas can even exist
00:56:56 <Bike> organized crime
00:56:58 <elliott> it's just the most awful place to me
00:56:59 <Fiora> southern california is basically a highly irrigated desert too <.<
00:57:02 <Bike> to summarize the history
00:57:03 <elliott> i mean apart from the worse places
00:57:13 <kmc> I really like the Mojave Desert, as a place to go to get away from it all
00:57:16 <elliott> Bike: yeah but this is more like... a philosophical problem
00:57:19 <kmc> don't think I would want to live there
00:57:24 <elliott> it's not that i don't understand how it could have arisen
00:57:30 <kmc> i've spent enough time living in southern california
00:57:31 <Bike> also the nevada desert has other cities in it, that are like mini vegases
00:57:33 <elliott> i just don't get how it is actually possible for a place like vegas to exist
00:57:38 <kmc> Bike: Reno ;_;
00:57:57 <Bike> and yes your idea of vegas isn't that inaccurate
00:58:03 <Bike> the surroundings, i mean
00:58:19 * kmc flew TLV-RNO once
00:58:27 <elliott> things i know about reno: 1. johnny cash shot a man there 2. REM went there
00:58:30 <kmc> via... LHR and probably ORD or some shit, I was pretty out of it by the second stop
00:58:34 <Bike> elliott: something something testament to man's willingness to flip off god something
00:58:40 <shachaf> But not enough time in Northern California!
00:58:59 <kmc> shachaf: indeed
00:59:01 <kmc> maybe I should move to SF
00:59:06 <kmc> it's looking more and more likely..........
00:59:23 <kmc> great plan
00:59:28 <shachaf> hexham is literally the worst place to move to
00:59:31 <elliott> or helsinki (maybe slightly more viable)
00:59:43 <elliott> it's a common myth that we hexhamites hate helsinki
00:59:54 <Bike> haha there's a wildlife range north of las vegas
00:59:59 <Bike> "Desert National Wildlife Range"
01:00:20 <Bike> alas google street view does not extend to wildernesses
01:01:02 <kmc> helsinki is super expensive
01:01:09 <kmc> but yes I might like to live there
01:01:09 <elliott> kmc: http://blakefallconroy.com/11.html this is cute (re: your link)
01:01:17 <elliott> i should end all my messages with (re: something)
01:01:25 <elliott> kmc: you smell (re: your smell)
01:01:30 <kmc> (WAS RE: COCKS)
01:01:40 <kmc> i don't know if rent is expensive but like.... stuff is expensive
01:02:13 <kmc> also the pub tram is expensive and like... what chance is there that I can avoid riding the pub tram on a weekly basis
01:02:16 <elliott> well i mean fizzie lives there, and i can't imagine there is much money in speech recognition research [canned laughter]
01:02:25 <elliott> helsinki truly is the future
01:02:26 <kmc> [toilet flush sound effect]
01:02:37 <shachaf> should i go live in helsinki
01:02:49 <kmc> [elliott enters the room, studio audience applauds wildly]
01:02:56 <Bike> that's an old calculator
01:02:56 <kmc> don't live in the army
01:03:24 <elliott> kmc: both canned AND fresh laughter
01:03:31 <elliott> truly we are breaking down barriers
01:04:41 <shachaf> SF is pretty expensive these days.
01:04:52 <kmc> seriously too
01:05:39 <elliott> kmc: hexham is pretty cheap
01:05:53 <elliott> but i can't imagine it being expensive! i guess properties are
01:05:56 <elliott> since it's all like rural and shit
01:06:06 <kmc> do i have to buy a farm
01:06:18 <elliott> i mean it's not that rural
01:06:22 <Bike> http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/2013/jhvhrdes3.jpg help
01:06:28 <elliott> got some buildings that are older than your country and so on
01:06:36 <elliott> might even be in one now idk
01:08:23 <mnoqy> a market town and civil parish
01:09:00 <mnoqy> Hexham won the Town award in the 2005 Britain in Bloom awards. In the same year Hexham was also named * 'England's Favourite Market Town' by the magazine Country Life.
01:09:51 <kmc> five points on a log plot that kind of fit a straight line
01:09:53 <Bike> this has a geneticist as a co-author!
01:10:03 <Bike> i mean, one who writes about biosemiotics, but come on
01:10:17 <olsner> biosemiotics? sounds like hogwash
01:10:41 <Bike> well uexküll wrote some good stuff
01:10:47 <kmc> in the words of a wise philosopher, "Worms – oh my god WORMS"
01:10:54 <Bike> yeah, basically
01:10:59 <olsner> "... that studies the production, action, and interpretation of signs and codes in the biological realm."
01:11:10 <Bike> the abstract to the paper talks about the technological singularity asodfuhqfsa
01:11:29 <mnoqy> From within the Hexham Courant office a webcam over-looking Hexham Abbey can be viewed on the following website: Hexham Courant Hexham also has a town webportal called HexhamNet HexhamNet. It was first launched in October 2003 and continues to attract web visitors from all over the world.
01:11:29 <olsner> so like genetic divination or something?
01:12:07 <Bike> uexküll was like a proto-cyberneticist and his stuff shows up in theoretical ethology sometimes
01:12:11 <mnoqy> how is hexham so cute
01:12:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: elliott's influence hth
01:12:52 <HackEgo> 2013-04-18 07:14:37: <oerjan> CAPTCHA: Write a 200 word essay on why spamming should carry the death penalty. Be convincing.
01:12:55 <Bike> unfortunately it... does get dumb sometimes. a lot of times apparently
01:15:09 <shachaf> elliott: hexham looks ""reasonably cheap"
01:17:49 <elliott> how reasonable is reasonably
01:19:19 <shachaf> i can't tell it's in £.....................
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01:20:07 <Bike> ok i just came to a profound realization
01:20:44 <shachaf> i used to think that people were saying "wait ago"
01:20:57 <Bike> measuring organismal complexity by counting DNA base pairs is like concluding that microsoft word is More Highly Evolved than linux because the binaries are bigger
01:20:58 <shachaf> now i know that they say "way to go" but it still doesn't make sense :'(
01:21:11 <Bike> "that is the way to go"
01:21:20 <Bike> "continue going on this way you are presently going on"
01:21:53 <shachaf> Bike: dna codez is not written in the same way as computer codez.............
01:22:00 <mnoqy> chance that microsoft word is actually more complex than linux?
01:22:09 <shachaf> last chance: should i see _The King and I (1956 film)_ or not
01:22:13 <Sgeo> At first I thought you were talking about that idiot who thinks that we're gaining new strands of DNA in some glorious something-or-other, and points to some severely disabled kid as our future
01:22:27 <olsner> shachaf: if 1956 means it's black and white, then no
01:22:30 <Bike> shachaf: the inner joke is that the analogy is just as bad as measuring complexity by base pairs.
01:22:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1cqs00/what_the_hell_first_child_officially_diagnosed/
01:22:42 <Bike> shachaf: see it.
01:23:26 <Bike> ascensionearth2012, are you serious
01:23:26 <elliott> is this another one of sgeo clicks a link to sugggest you don't
01:23:50 <Bike> is r/skeptic by any chance a forum where people shore up garbage to laugh at
01:24:09 <shachaf> elliott: are pounds sterling worth more than regular pounds
01:24:13 <Sgeo> Bike, sometimes
01:24:30 <olsner> shachaf: isn't one of those a unit of weight rather than a currency?
01:24:47 <olsner> if so, it depends on the material
01:24:57 <shachaf> olsner: Are you thinking of slugs?
01:25:03 <shachaf> pounds are a unit of mass hth
01:25:10 <Bike> slugs are the worst unit
01:25:12 <elliott> alright i clicked it. you win Sgeo thanks a lot.
01:25:34 <Bike> shachaf: they're used both ways. fuck the imperial system. fuck imperialism fuck patriarchy burn the queen
01:25:42 <shachaf> wait, slugs are the unit of mass
01:25:55 <olsner> maybe ... mass but implicitly a weight in 1g gravity?
01:25:57 <shachaf> okay i just don't know how it works
01:26:16 <shachaf> elliott: are you going to let Bike get away with saying that
01:26:23 <shachaf> without even devoicing him for it
01:26:27 <Bike> "Read more about Alfie Clamp born with extra DNA in world first and see a picture of him at the Daily Mail." is every fucking news site an aggregator for everything else now
01:26:47 <Bike> a slug is also an animal you fucks!!!!!!!!!!!!
01:26:56 <shachaf> olsner: 1 gram gravity what that doesn't make any sense..
01:27:01 <Sgeo> A slug is also an identifier
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01:27:31 <Bike> sgeo i'm reading a daily mail article because of you
01:27:37 <shachaf> Bike: wow a slug is a bad unit
01:27:52 <Bike> shame because they're a good animal
01:27:53 <shachaf> who even invented this unit and why
01:27:54 <Bike> but a bad unit
01:28:16 <elliott> don't even get what the link was for
01:28:20 <olsner> shachaf: wrong g! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gravity
01:28:26 <elliott> like it wasn't to a comment...
01:28:37 <Bike> because i mentioned DNA and the link was also about DNA??
01:29:10 <shachaf> olsner: come to think of it ½gt² doesn't make sense either. half a gram?
01:29:14 <Bike> The blob is the inch version of the slug (1 blob = 1 lbf·s2/in = 12 slugs)[1] or equivalent to 175.126 kg. This unit is also called slinch (a portmanteau of the words slug and inch).[8][9] Slang terms are slugette,[10] and a snail.[11]
01:30:07 <olsner> shachaf: is that a half gramsquaretonne?
01:30:13 <Bike> Metric units include the "glug" in the centimetre-gram-second system, and the "mug", "par", or "MTE" in the metre-kilogram-second system.[12]
01:31:00 <kmc> at least I'll have a software defined radio to play with soon
01:36:12 <shachaf> Bike: I think I might not see it. :-(
01:38:22 <shachaf> But it's in <an hour at the theatre and I haven't eaten anything today.
01:38:44 <Bike> yeah, eat thing.
01:40:04 <Bike> ok the paper doesn't do any stats analysis at all, it just says it fits the line
01:42:16 <Bike> so of course a bunch of news outlets have headlines like "Moore's Law suggests panspermia" and shit
01:43:10 <kmc> isn't science journalism a beautiful thing
01:43:57 <kmc> does the 'ug' in slug / glug / mug stand for something?
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01:44:27 <Bike> it also cites "Darwin 1866". I choose to believe this refers to "The Movements and Habits of Climbing Plants"
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01:57:56 <kmc> maybe i should insist on formal performance reviews at my next job
01:58:06 <kmc> startups don't want to do them because it's process and paperwork
01:58:12 <kmc> but it seems preferable to being fired 9 months in out of the blue
01:59:35 <elliott> if you have performance reviews you'd have to write in a fast language like C/C++
02:00:00 <elliott> i have absolutely no point btw
02:00:08 <elliott> is this when you use "I,I"
02:00:26 <Bike> what the fuck is i,i
02:00:49 <kmc> it means 'i have no point, i just want to say'
02:00:54 <Bike> maybe i should make friends with some science journalists
02:00:55 <kmc> but maybe.... also an owl
02:01:11 <Bike> tell them things like that it's ok for them to stop reading a paper if it's ugly
02:01:13 <Sgeo> Huh. So the Press Release announcing Javascript suggested server-side Javascript.
02:01:27 <Bike> well, i guess they probably just read the abstracts, if anything
02:01:57 <Bike> "technological singularity"? the internet?? i'll write up an article IMMEDIATELY
02:02:09 <mnoqy> what sort of people are science journalists anyway. the sort of people who'd be science journalists, i'd imagine...
02:02:13 <Bike> this is what i imagine science journalists are like, and so i should meet some
02:02:26 <Bike> instead of having this caricature i mean
02:02:50 <Bike> oh, pz myers already trashed it for me
02:02:59 <mnoqy> did someone say information superhighway
02:03:05 <elliott> i don't like pz mysres but i forget why
02:03:08 <elliott> i remember there was a reason
02:03:27 <Bike> http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2013/04/sillyorg.png behold
02:03:35 <Bike> elliott: well he's kind of a new atheist
02:03:45 <elliott> yeah but it was for a different reason
02:03:49 <olsner> was it oerjan who started the I,I thing?
02:03:50 <Bike> i think he's less... "shitty", as the kids say, than dawkins, but still
02:04:02 <elliott> this was before i completely gave up on calling myself an atheist
02:04:11 <elliott> mnoqy: you know. "people like dawkins"
02:04:23 <Bike> it's a "movement" or w/e
02:04:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
02:05:08 <mnoqy> is "nonreligious" a good term to avoid being grouped in with them because that's what i've been going with
02:05:10 <Bike> oh the quote in the intro is actually just antitheism. cool. that's cool
02:05:26 <elliott> i think i settled on "nonreligious" but also it's like not something that actually comes up ever
02:05:29 <Bike> i don't remember the last time i've even had to state my religious anything but i'd probably go with "atheism"
02:05:31 <elliott> unless you talk about religion and why would you
02:05:37 <Bike> just because... who cares
02:06:10 <Bike> Cardinal William Levada believes that New Atheism has misrepresented the doctrines of the church.[19] He described New Atheism as "aggressive", and he believed it to be the primary source of discrimination against Christians.[20]
02:06:25 <elliott> primary source of discrimination against christians
02:06:38 <Bike> yep. have you punched a cross today
02:07:11 <elliott> i got cross today (ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ahhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah0ah 09sadh sa09dh aiosdj ad jsaiodj saiodja;klweq4;kw4am6;kltr )
02:07:27 <elliott> don't you know anything about okoing
02:08:18 <elliott> *it from scratch each time
02:10:19 <elliott> go `outside your comfort zone'
02:11:17 <Bike> do i have one of those
02:11:57 <elliott> it's everything but okoing
02:12:03 <elliott> can you give a testimonial
02:12:13 <Bike> http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/005/cache/coelacanth_501_600x450.jpg
02:12:24 <elliott> you have to let yourself free
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02:20:46 <Lymia> Storing the "flag zeroed for one tick" flag
02:23:00 * Lymia tests with omnipotence
02:38:14 <kmc> Bike: that just reminds me of time trumpet
02:38:28 <Bike> is that about fish
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02:40:37 <kmc> noooooooo my IRC uptime
02:42:56 <Jafet> EC2? More like upscale
02:43:10 <kmc> free micro instance
02:45:35 <elliott> does anyone have any vps recommendations btw
02:45:51 <kmc> there's that http://prgmr.com
02:45:56 <kmc> why not prgmr
02:45:58 <kmc> 'dumb name'
02:46:13 <kmc> elliott: i hear rackspace is all right, maybe
02:46:17 <elliott> kmc: i was with prgmr before linode
02:46:34 <elliott> i moved because it's slow and i wanted more ram for running php/mysql/nginx/mediawiki
02:46:45 <elliott> it's especially nice that linode let me have my server in london
02:46:50 <elliott> because, i run my irc client on it
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02:47:41 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/BFJoust_Shalia$ scala -J-Xss32m -cp out/production/BFJoust_Shalia/ com.lymiahugs.shalia.VM omnipotence.bfjoust anticipation.bfjoust
02:47:41 <Lymia> <<<<<<<<>>>><<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<>>>><<<<<<<<< 26
02:47:41 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/BFJoust_Shalia$ ~/programming/bfjoust-evo/utils/gearlance omnipotence.bfjoust anticipation.bfjoust
02:47:41 <Lymia> <>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 36
02:47:45 <kmc> more ram for running php / mysql / mediawiki / russian spam botnet
02:47:46 <elliott> mosh does not make latency not annoying
02:47:55 <elliott> kmc: no they're french spammers nowadays
02:48:02 <Lymia> There's apparently some subtle behavioral difference in my Bfjoust implementation
02:48:09 <Lymia> That makes omnipotence lose
02:48:21 <elliott> Lymia: compare execution traces maybe?
02:48:32 <Lymia> I'm going to have to
02:48:43 <Jafet> @google hetzner robot -elliott
02:48:47 <Lymia> I'd have to figure out how to get gearlance to output one first though
02:48:55 <Bike> can't the spammers be lithuanian for once
02:49:59 <elliott> Jafet: are you sure you wanted to link me to that
02:50:21 <Jafet> You have now been linked to that.
02:52:38 <kmc> i think i'm p. cool with the 'new atheists'
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02:53:09 <kmc> at least I think pointing out the numerous ways religion harms people is better than being like 'well I don't believe personally but I respect your right to mutilate children"
02:53:20 <Bike> ok but have you seen dawkins's twitter feed
02:53:30 <kmc> i do think it's a shame that Dawkins is known mostly for this
02:53:38 <kmc> since I find his biology books a lot more interesting
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02:54:01 <Bike> honestly i wish there was a better way to be a popular biologist than yelling at creationists
02:54:19 <Sgeo> The RFC that defined JSON included a JSON parser with a security hole
02:54:29 <Jafet> You can also only be a popular physicist if you talk about THE UNIVERSE
02:54:37 <Bike> not that they don't deserve it but biology is pretty cool. even the stuff that isn't evolutionary!
02:54:41 <kmc> Sgeo: yep!
02:54:54 <kmc> biology is amazing
02:55:04 <Jafet> And a popular chemist if... well, I guess it's harder to be a popular chemist.
02:55:04 <kmc> just the number of incredible hacks that different critters use to get by
02:55:08 <Bike> for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3HcqGcXls4
02:55:21 <Bike> now in twin form
02:55:28 <Bike> Sgeo: is this the parser that consists of eval
02:55:30 <kmc> copumpkin: hm?
02:55:37 <copumpkin> you mentioned getting into huge trouble on twitter
02:55:51 <kmc> well I asked for more money at work and instead I got fired
02:55:57 <kmc> unclear how much these things were causally related
02:56:13 <kmc> the reasons the founders gave for firing me don't really make sense, and they refuse to elaborate
02:56:16 <kmc> I think I ranted a bit about it above
02:56:41 <Bike> Jafet: i think the popularist chemist i can think of is derek lowe who isn't that popular
02:57:07 <kmc> Bike: wtf frogs
02:57:15 <kmc> also did they just try that with every cell until it worked
02:57:19 <kmc> thanks copumpkin
02:57:35 <Bike> the original experiment was actually on salamanders
02:57:53 <Bike> also the lady investigator died in a fire before her thesis on it was published :/
02:58:33 <Bike> they were working off some older experiments, like one where a guy would kill part of an embryo with a hot needle (presumably because Why Not) and watched how it developed
02:58:48 <kmc> yeah... a lot of bio experiments are like "what happens if we break this part"
02:58:50 <Bike> except mysteriously if this half-embryo was next to a full embryo it would half-develop, but if it was separated it wouldn't
02:58:52 <copumpkin> kmc: you're always welcome back in the evil world of finance :P I don't get the impression that's really the direction you want to go in though
02:59:02 <kmc> copumpkin: it isn't really
02:59:07 <kmc> although i don't consider what you do evil
02:59:19 <kmc> in fact I don't consider HFT evil
02:59:20 <Bike> oh, copumpkin's the quant?
02:59:29 <kmc> well i don't know, what are you up to now
02:59:41 <kmc> I don't think HFT is intrinsically that bad, but it sucks smart people away from other things
02:59:51 <kmc> i dunno what I want to do next
02:59:55 <Bike> i don't know what a qual is.....
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03:03:47 <copumpkin> in the sense that we don't have a particularly mathematical approach to things
03:04:03 <Bike> so do you like analyze the stock market sociologically
03:04:06 <copumpkin> I don't really have much to do with the decision-making, be it math or not math
03:04:40 <copumpkin> it's macro, so looking at global tendencies, interest rates, exchange rates, political events, production of goods in different countries, things like that
03:05:51 <kmc> i remember reading about some fund that would follow around CEOs with private investigators
03:07:11 <copumpkin> don't think that's us, but it's hard to be sure
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03:16:02 <Lymia> A86 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08 A86 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A87 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08 A87 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A88 05 00 Bfd b0 01 05 ff 05 08 | A88 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A89 05 B00 fd b0 01 05 ff 05 08 | A89 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:09 <Lymia> Anticipation, for some reason
03:16:11 <Lymia> Gets stuck doing nothing
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03:20:09 <copumpkin> what's it called when you write x : y :: a : b or whatever the local symbols for that are
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03:26:39 <kmc> it's like a thought with another thought's hat on
03:29:14 <Fiora> I remember those were like, a thing on the SAT or something?
03:29:51 <Bike> a is to b as f is to...
03:30:27 <Bike> A++ you win the SAT
03:30:36 <kmc> back in my day the SAT only had 1600 points
03:30:59 <Fiora> I think I took mine the year they changed it <_>
03:31:01 <Bike> back in my day everyone got their own day
03:31:02 <copumpkin> we had to take the SAT 2 writing if we wanted the shit that people get by default now
03:31:02 <Lymia> It's probably a parsing bug
03:31:22 <kmc> copumpkin speaks the truth
03:31:27 <kmc> truthpumpkin
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03:31:44 <kmc> Bike: back in your day there were only 365.25 people?
03:32:04 <Bike> well, that was before the gregorian reforms
03:32:13 <kmc> Gregor'ian reforms
03:32:16 <Bike> we pretty much just said the year ended whenever everyone agreed the year ended
03:32:22 <kmc> "fuck this year"
03:32:31 <kmc> vote by acclamation
03:32:48 <Bike> some years not everybody got a day, but in those years we were generally sick of the year anyway
03:32:54 <Bike> just had a longer year next if we needed it
03:44:29 <Sgeo> "Internet Explorer unconditionally falls back to HTML rendering, true to the letter of Tim Berner-Lee's original protocol drafts."
03:46:39 <Lymia> elliott, apparently
03:46:46 <Lymia> I had a parsing issue causing {} to parse as nothing
03:47:46 <Lymia> Because of my code structure, that translates to "()%x loops don't work"
03:47:58 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37560/3f060be9c6ccce447ce1faff957b8c5f
03:48:38 <Sgeo> "Readers who found the handling of the formats discussed so far to be too sane for their tastes are in for a well-deserved treat."
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03:55:33 <mnoqy> Sgeo: what's the treat
03:55:53 <elliott> kmc: is your twitter account good
03:55:55 <Sgeo> XML-based documents
03:55:58 <kmc> i've seen better
03:56:11 <mnoqy> sometime i need to get around to finally deleting my twitter
03:56:14 <Sgeo> Browsers often determine the format based on their content, regardless of Content-Type headers
03:56:20 <Sgeo> Or even content below the top level tag
03:56:27 <elliott> i occasionally read a handful of twitters but i don't have an account i just check them because hey it's like five years too late to create a twitter account
03:56:55 <truepumpkin> elliott: hurry up and get a twitter account
03:57:17 <elliott> truepumpkin: but i have no friends!
03:57:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: It might make sense if it won't receive a Content-Type header. But, that is not the case.
03:58:16 <elliott> truepumpkin: do you use this nick to lie to people because people will believe it because of your nick
03:58:37 <kmc> Postel's Law is basically the worst thing ever for security
03:58:45 <mnoqy> what's postel's law here
03:58:59 <kmc> that whatever nonsense garbage data you get, you should try to interpret and process it in some way
03:59:05 <kmc> rather than just saying "fuck you"
03:59:16 <mnoqy> ah, yeah that's bad
03:59:57 <Fiora> is that like the reason why you can have HTML pages with 200 errors that display fine?
03:59:58 <kmc> welp this string of bytes might be an X11 Type3 font embedded in a Gopher header encoded as UTF-7, let's pass it off to a bunch of code nobody has tested in 15 years
04:00:04 <Fiora> while like, a C program with one error won't compile
04:00:48 <Jafet> A JPEG file that looks like HTML? Impossible
04:01:19 <Jafet> Though this is mainly because browser developers are on the side of website developers rather than browser users
04:01:35 <kmc> browser developers are on the side of advertising salespeople
04:02:36 <Jafet> Let's implement HTTP pipelining and disable it by default, and add a completely new protocol by google to the program
04:02:43 <Jafet> which is basically HTTP pipelining
04:03:03 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't have headers.
04:03:34 <Jafet> Do browsers actually implement gopher properly
04:03:37 <elliott> bam kmc's argument destroyed
04:03:40 <Jafet> They might have "headers"
04:03:41 <Sgeo> I understand the point of GIFAR now
04:03:54 <Sgeo> both a gif and a ar
04:05:09 <Sgeo> Upload to site that hosts images, make malicious page that treats it as an applet, retrieve people's cookies from image host, profit
04:05:41 <mnoqy> it's cute when you can rename something to have .gif extension and everything accepts it :-)
04:06:08 <Sgeo> Even if the image host gives Content-Type: image/gif or whatever, that header wll be ignored
04:06:17 <Sgeo> mnoqy, it really is a valid gif file I think
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04:07:15 <mnoqy> ~ yes but not everything checks for validity. or at least i remember in the past that's how it went ~
04:08:59 <zzo38> Some browsers implement gopher properly, some don't unless you have an extension installed. The file might have a header to indicate the format (if the type is said to be "I" then it is a picture file, and the header of the picture file can be used to determine the format, for example).
04:13:30 <Sgeo> Hey! How dare this book implies that I install Adobe Shockwave Player by accident!
04:13:35 <Sgeo> I need it for iSketch
04:29:09 <Lymia> With some of these bugs
04:29:11 <Lymia> I'd expect an outright crash
04:29:14 <Lymia> Instead of wrong behavior
04:32:27 <Lymia> elliott, (({{}})%y)%x is legal, right?
04:32:37 <Lymia> And the outermost {} is paired with the innermost ()
04:33:28 <elliott> it's at least uncommon I think
04:33:57 <Lymia> I know for a fact I'll have bad behavior then, at least
04:34:33 <Bike> has anyone tried building an alternate evaluation scheme in kernel? i'm thinking i might try some shitty WHNF
04:35:42 <zzo38> Do you think Z-machine interpreter in Famicom is reasonable?
04:35:50 <Bike> god no, but do it
04:36:47 <zzo38> Z-machine interpreter for GameBoy exists, even though GameBoy does not have a keyboard.
04:40:05 <zzo38> Might it work better on Famicom if Famicom has a keyboard? (The Famicom keyboard does not have ASCII codes 0x60 to 0x7E, but I have suggested a very simple way to correct that problem)
04:43:08 <kmc> which is that way
04:45:57 <zzo38> The Famicom keyboard uses the SHIFT to toggle bit4 of ASCII codes in range 0x20 to 0x3F. My suggestion is that codes 0x40 to 0x7F will be toggle bit5 when SHIFT key is pushed.
04:46:53 <zzo38> (The keyboard itself does not do this decoding; it only reads a button matrix to tell you what keys are pushed. The software that reads it must then decode it; this means that the decoder can easily be made whatever is helpful, and doesn't even necessarily need to be ASCII.)
05:12:30 <shachaf> truepumpkin: Hey, you're not following *me*!
05:12:36 <shachaf> What's so special about elliott?
05:12:57 <shachaf> Other than being the seriously best.
05:13:42 <shachaf> Why would I tweet when you wouldn't end up reading it?
05:13:45 <shachaf> It's like talking into the void.
05:14:35 <shachaf> OK, now I need a different excuse.
05:16:10 <shachaf> How about: elliott isn't following me.
05:16:28 <elliott> i hear you say more than enough
05:16:30 <shachaf> elliott is the seriously best mouse.
05:24:34 <Fiora> you should totally use tumblr instead
05:25:24 <shachaf> I have a Tumblr account too!
05:25:41 <shachaf> my tumblr account is too cool to be followed
05:26:03 <shachaf> Bike: I saw _The King and I_
05:26:30 <shachaf> imo i preferred _Anastasia (1956 film)_
05:26:42 <Bike> was that good?
05:27:00 <shachaf> why don't you watch it and tell me
05:28:10 <elliott> shachaf: you need the _ before the parens
05:28:22 <shachaf> elliott: no its part of the title........
05:28:34 <elliott> <shachaf> yesterday i saw _Anastasia_ (1956 film)
05:35:09 <Jafet> '''''Anastasia'''''
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06:46:15 <zzo38> Wikipedia says that you can encode intuitionistic logic into linear logic by (!A -o B). Is there a category of linear implication? Does it mean that a programming language using linear logic might have a comonad for normal functional programming?
06:46:54 <shachaf> zzo38: You should ask cmccann.
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06:58:22 <fizzie> Did you know that: [[The EFF is a left wing organization which has some of the same goals as the anti-government group “Anonymous” as well as the terrorist group “Wikileaks”.]]
06:58:31 <fizzie> (Any EFF members aka terrorists present?)
07:00:37 <Jafet> Why can't we have centrist terrorist groups
07:01:12 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
07:01:33 <Bike> (bla bla left/right doesn't even make sense anyway bla)
07:02:04 <elliott> more like up/DOWN am I right Bi ke its what the kids need .
07:02:13 <elliott> oh fuck dammit it's past 8
07:02:18 <Bike> vote up: we're ABOVE those fucks
07:02:24 <shachaf> elliott: have you considered oging to slelepe
07:02:38 <Bike> imo, go the fuck to sleep you goddamn embarassment
07:02:45 <elliott> you're the fucking embarrassment
07:02:53 <Jafet> @google go the fuck to sleep
07:02:54 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_the_Fuck_to_Sleep
07:02:54 <lambdabot> Title: Go the Fuck to Sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
07:02:57 <elliott> what bicycle wants its child bicycle to grow up subserviant to human shit like irc
07:02:59 <Bike> no it's you sorry
07:03:02 <elliott> probably real ashamed of that arm you got too
07:03:17 <Bike> irc wasn't invented by humans it was invented by swedes, dumbass
07:03:18 <elliott> "he's walys tried to fit in with the humans" -- bicycle parents trying to explain Bike's future bicycle rampage
07:03:36 <elliott> finnish people arent swedes who i agree arent 100%human
07:03:38 <Bike> and the arm was a gift! from my nephew!
07:04:01 <elliott> human-bike interbreeding......... the dire future we all share
07:04:09 <shachaf> how could a bicycle have a human nephew
07:04:09 <Jafet> Do irc bikes have irc handles
07:04:13 <Bike> well, mostly platypus, but yeah a bit. i mean where else would he get the ar.
07:04:47 <zzo38> I suppose they are terrorist, but "terrorist" is still, just the label they apply which is not as meaningful as they think it to be, and not like they claim it to be, it is just a kind of complaint the government makes rather than a real thing, I guess.
07:04:53 <Bike> Oh I see how it is. Y'all racists. First it's miscegenation with the African-descendent, then with the horse-descendent
07:04:59 <shachaf> zzo38: cmccann is in #haskell and other channels
07:05:05 <shachaf> He talks about linear logic a lot.
07:05:09 <shachaf> He does things with it in Haskell.
07:07:38 <shachaf> Ugh, I gotta line things up again.
07:07:53 <shachaf> How many characters do I get? 34?
07:08:15 <Bike> Now you see the importance of double-spacing after a full stop.
07:08:49 <shachaf> The importance of being an insufferable jerk?
07:09:33 <shachaf> (The joke is that people who double-space after a full stop are insufferable jerks.)
07:09:57 <Jafet> shachaf. . . . . .
07:10:30 <shachaf> I'd rather see three undertrumps after a discard of a Trebled Fromp.
07:10:34 <shachaf> Now that's something worthwhile.
07:10:52 <mnoqy> (?? ?????????????? ?)
07:10:54 <elliott> shachaf: wow are you calling mnoqy an insufferable jerk???
07:11:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: http://mimg.ugo.com/200902/19213/double-fannuci.jpg
07:11:17 <shachaf> elliott: no obv. mnoqy's ok........................................................
07:11:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1d/Zork_Zero_Double_Fanucci.png
07:11:52 <Bike> wow this game seem's hard
07:12:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey don't talk to the jester like that
07:12:18 <mnoqy> is the jester a jerk
07:12:24 <shachaf> spoilers the jester is actually ████████████████████████████████
07:12:40 <mnoqy> should i lay the hate on this jesterman
07:12:51 <shachaf> usually the jester is p. cool
07:12:56 <shachaf> but sometimes he's a total jerk
07:13:09 <shachaf> like the times when he appears out of nowhere and puts a clown nose on your nose
07:13:18 <shachaf> and then if you don't take it off within a few turns you suffocate to death
07:13:22 <mnoqy> that sounds like a jerk thing to do
07:13:31 <shachaf> jester more like jerkster am i right
07:14:02 <shachaf> Bike: Double Fanucci is pretty great.
07:14:05 <shachaf> Bike: You should learn it.
07:14:46 <shachaf> http://struckus.tripod.com/zork0_snarfen_game.jpg
07:15:52 <zzo38> "... (1) Does science seek the truth, even if the truth includes the existence of God? (2) Or does science only seek answers that first exclude any possibility that God is a part of the truth? A theory of our origins that eliminates the input of God is worthless if, in fact, God created everything." What is your opinion about this?
07:16:07 <shachaf> science does not seek truth
07:16:14 <zzo38> vos Savant says (1). My sister says (2). I say the question is wrong.
07:16:15 <Bike> "Boston bombings: Officer lost all blood but is expected to recover"
07:16:44 <Bike> I'm with shachaf on this one.
07:17:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Not because of that, though.
07:18:02 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you sell "i ♥ mnoqy" shirts
07:18:09 <mnoqy> i dont sell shirts
07:18:12 <Bike> elliott: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-boston-bombings-mbta-officer-condition-20130421,0,6889893.story
07:18:24 <Bike> elliott: presumably they were like, replacing it as it came out.
07:18:25 <mnoqy> maybe someday i should set up a shirt shop
07:18:31 <shachaf> mnoqy: if i gave you a trillion dollars could i get a shirt
07:18:57 <Bike> if you gave mnoqy a trillion dollars you'd destroy the economy.
07:19:01 <mnoqy> his heart stopped and he lost his entire blood supply, but doctors and relatives on Sunday said he was emerging from sedation and expected to recover
07:19:05 <Bike> al.t get murdered by the secret service
07:20:24 <Bike> > sort "eqonomy"
07:22:39 <shachaf> care for a game of double fanucci
07:40:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17882
07:42:04 <shachaf> "A widow is a woman whose spouse has died, while a widower is a man whose spouse has died."
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07:43:09 <shachaf> This form is funny because in Hebrew it's only masculine but in English it says "Widow/er".
07:43:37 <Bike> yeah, that's how it goes. it's silly
07:47:47 <shachaf> elliott: "good "luck "with "that""""
07:50:16 <Jafet> Widowmaker should be gender neutral
07:50:29 <Jafet> I don't know about windowmaker though
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08:16:11 <lambdabot> *** "widow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:16:11 <lambdabot> n 1: a woman whose husband is dead especially one who has not
08:16:11 <lambdabot> remarried [syn: {widow}, {widow woman}]
08:16:11 <lambdabot> v 1: cause to be without a spouse; "The war widowed many women
08:16:31 <lambdabot> *** "widower" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:16:31 <lambdabot> n 1: a man whose wife is dead especially one who has not
08:16:31 <lambdabot> remarried [syn: {widower}, {widowman}]
08:16:36 <fizzie> (I kept typoing that as "windower".)
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11:00:33 <ais523> haha: I was reading http://blog.joda.org/2009/11/why-jsr-310-isn-joda-time_4941.html (by the author of JodaTime, a popular time handling library for Java) where he talks about its design flaws, and there are people in the comments telling him he's wrong and what he's identified as flaws actually aren't
11:03:20 <shachaf> kmc: would "spineless tagless g-machine" be a good name for a band
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11:52:25 <Jafet> When zsh sees xx $(yy)^I, it runs yy and tab completes on the output
11:53:24 <Jafet> So you can crash it with echo $(yes)^I
11:54:44 <Jafet> I'm afraid to use this, not because it will crash sometimes
11:55:16 <Jafet> but because it will make using bash even more unbearable
11:55:42 <shachaf> zsh is less bearable than bash for me.
11:55:57 <Jafet> rsync -e ssh bla/^I^I^I^I^I^I^I oh right this computer doesn't have zsh
11:56:38 <fizzie> What would a tab there do with zsh?
11:56:59 <Jafet> cp /usr/shrae/doc/^I^I^I^I oh right I forgot to beat the sysadmin into giving me zsh
11:57:18 <fizzie> I don't know what all those ^I's mean. :(
11:57:36 <fizzie> Yes, but what should happen!
11:57:43 <Jafet> Tab completion, obviously
11:58:04 <fizzie> Yes, but how? I mean, it must be something else than getting the list of possible completions.
11:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> in the first case it should expand bla/ into blancmange/ and then list the contents of blancmange, or somesuch
11:58:35 <Jafet> What comes after bla:/ is the name of a file on bla
11:58:46 <Jafet> zsh will connect to bla and list them
11:58:49 <fizzie> Jafet: There was no : in your example.
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11:58:53 <shachaf> bash completes remote ssh things for me just fine, with a :
11:58:59 <fizzie> Jafet: So that was quite confusing.
11:59:21 <fizzie> (And bash does complete remote things for me fine, too.)
11:59:56 <fizzie> (Would /usr/shrae/doc/ do some kind of a spelling fixup shrae -> share, then?)
11:59:58 <Jafet> Ok, I don't know what completions are provided by bash.
12:01:06 <shachaf> It came configured that way for me.
12:02:11 <fizzie> 26228 lines in /etc/bash_completion and files of /etc/bash_completion.d; it certainly came... configured, here, too.
12:03:19 <Jafet> Most of those are just program-specific completion rules
12:03:56 <Jafet> zsh reads those as well
12:04:24 <fizzie> But they're arbitrary bash code, aren't they
12:05:09 <fizzie> Reading them sounds nasty.
12:05:30 <Jafet> I suppose you could write some of them in the particular subset of bash which is not implemented the same way by zsh
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13:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> im trapped in a place where irc only works for like 30 seconds
13:11:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: ok not forever
13:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: alsa appears to have gone on strike or something
13:11:29 <shachaf> just until you leave that awful place
13:11:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: alt. run irc on a remote server and connect to that server with mosh
13:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't have a remote server i'm not a cool technowizard like you guys
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13:18:26 <shachaf> `run welcome Anickyan | sed s/dal/dahl/g
13:18:30 <HackEgo> Anickyan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dahl.net.)
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13:29:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcohlme: not found
13:29:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcome: not found
13:30:26 <Jafet> `run echo bin/we *
13:30:28 <HackEgo> bin/we bin canary etc factor hello hello.c ibin interps karma lib maze maze.c paste quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs Test.o wisdom
13:31:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maze: not found
13:31:23 <HackEgo> maze: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
13:31:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcohme: not found
13:31:34 <HackEgo> bash: bin/maze: No such file or directory
13:31:37 <HackEgo> Jahfeht: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
13:31:38 <HackEgo> bash: maze: command not found
13:32:00 <HackEgo> const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };
13:32:01 <shachaf> @ask Phantom_Hoover It's OK. You can stay. Come back!
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13:33:46 <FireFly> `run echo this is a test | h
13:34:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
13:38:00 <Jafet> `run objdump -D maze | sed -e '/maze/,/main>/ d'
13:38:02 <HackEgo> \ 400120:31 ff xor %edi,%edi \ 400122:ff c7 inc %edi \ 400124:48 89 e6 mov %rsp,%rsi \ 400127:c7 06 e2 95 b1 00 movl $0xb195e2,(%rsi) \ 40012d:0f 31 rdtsc \ 40012f:24 01 and $0x1,%al \ 400131:00 46 02 add %al,0x2
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13:44:05 <Jafet> `run objdump -D maze -M intel | sed -e '/maze/,/main>/ d' -e 's/^ \+[0-9a-f]\+:\s\+\([0-9a-f][0-9a-f] \)\+\s\+//'
13:44:07 <HackEgo> \ xor edi,edi \ inc edi \ mov rsi,rsp \ mov DWORD PTR [rsi],0xb195e2 \ rdtsc \ and al,0x1 \ add BYTE PTR [rsi+0x2],al \ mov eax,edi \ xor edx,edx \ mov dl,0x3 \ syscall \ jmp 400127 <main+0x7> \ ... \ \ Disassembly of section .comment: \ \ 0000000000000000 <.comment>: \ rex.RXB \ rex.XB \ rex.XB cmp spl,BY
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13:46:16 <fizzie> Just that the above ^ was quite a noisy sight.
13:46:36 <boily> sorry about that spurrious ^, sometimes my keyboard layout resets for no apparent reason.
13:49:17 <Jafet> You're right, that sed script should have been more reserved.
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14:00:43 <Jafet> Ok, I don't have the appropriate font for that maze
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14:07:27 <fizzie> You can tr it into /s and \s with not much loss of fidelity.
14:07:37 <fizzie> Assuming tr can deal with UTF-8. I suppose it can't.
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14:07:43 <fizzie> Well, maybe it can, who knows.
14:07:50 <fizzie> You can sed it into those things, at the very least.
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14:11:30 <Anickyan> Who here have ever created a brainfuck interpreter?
14:13:34 <Koen_> Anickyan: when entering here you have to go through two simple tasks
14:13:50 <Koen_> first task: write a brainfuck interpreter (or seventy brainfuck interpreters)
14:13:58 <Koen_> that's the easy task
14:14:00 <Anickyan> https://gist.github.com/Mads-Clausen/5434778
14:14:14 <Koen_> then comes second task: you have to solemnly swear that you will never do that again
14:14:49 <Koen_> and if you ever do that again, Phantom_Hoover will take care of you
14:14:55 <Koen_> you do NOT want Phantom_Hoover to take care of you
14:14:56 <Jafet> `run echo 'unsigned long const main[] = {0x8948c7ff48ff3148, 0x0f0080b7e406c7e6, 0x2468880043f2431, 0x50ff8894803b299, 0xedeb};' > maze.c && gcc maze.c -o maze && ./maze
14:15:04 <HackEgo> ䷎䷕䷢䷞䷢䷾䷘䷮䷳䷳䷂䷯䷽䷚䷉䷁䷧䷲䷲䷞䷙䷢䷔䷬䷟䷙䷬䷖䷞䷺䷕䷅䷺䷳䷀䷁䷡䷚䷾䷰䷚䷀䷊䷆䷭䷊䷇䷒䷷䷢䷨䷴䷡䷤䷍䷵䷌䷄䷜䷢䷬䷆䷾䷬䷹䷙䷻䷢䷏䷕䷣䷧䷭䷧䷎䷷䷌䷨䷜䷨䷫䷔䷵䷤䷒䷡䷯䷌䷈䷟䷰䷵䷤䷠䷅䷹䷚䷐䷀䷌䷃䷾䷒䷝䷕䷤䷨䷜䷈䷑䷯䷭䷠䷚䷼
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14:16:25 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:17:06 <ThatOtherPerson> Koen_: what happens when Phantom_Hoover takes care of you?
14:17:28 <Koen_> you should ask him, I guess
14:17:32 <Koen_> or maybe YOU SHOULDN'T
14:17:33 <Jafet> Make one mistake, and you end up having to take care of people forever
14:18:06 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: well I try to read every new article on your blog to learn more about you
14:19:30 <HackEgo> 00000000 e4 b7 81 e4 b7 83 e4 b7 80 e4 b7 8b e4 b7 8f e4 |................| \ 00000010 b7 8c e4 b7 ae e4 b7 ad e4 b7 90 e4 b7 a7 e4 b7 |................| \ 00000020 aa e4 b7 83 e4 b7 af e4 b7 82 e4 b7 9f e4 b7 8d |................| \ 00000030 e4 b7 a2 e4 b7 b8 e4 b7 82 e4 b7 b9 e4 b7 8e e4 |................| \ 00000040 b7 8f e4 b7 90 e
14:19:52 <Jafet> Do you feel lost? Good, the maze is working.
14:20:07 <Koen_> for some reason I felt hl-ed by your maze
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14:49:05 <boily> ah, the fresh feeling of a new kernel!
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15:22:41 <Jafet> `fetch sprunge.us/hbDf
15:22:43 <HackEgo> 2013-04-22 15:22:42 URL:http://sprunge.us/hbDf [3795] -> "hbDf" [1]
15:22:56 <HackEgo> ... bottle of claret for you if I'd realised. I'd forgotten all about it, George, I'm sorry.
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15:23:16 <Jafet> `run tr A-Z a-z<hbDf | tr -d "[],.<>+'-" | sed -e "s/its alright/</g" -e 's/turn me on dead man/>/g' -e 's/number \(9\|nine\)/+/g' -e "s/if you\(ll\|ve\|d\) become naked/-/g" -e 's/the beatles/./g' -e 's/paul is dead/,/g' -e 's/revolution 1/[/g' -e 's/revolution 9/]/g'|tac|tac | tr -cd '[],.<>+-'
15:23:17 <HackEgo> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<-
15:23:32 <Jafet> ...that's disappointing
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15:30:49 <Koen_> turned on by dead man
15:30:56 <Koen_> better than raping a mexican monkey, I guess
15:36:31 <Jafet> Unless that monkey's gone to heaven
15:41:52 <kmc> Jafet: the source for the maze program is at https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/5364432
15:43:49 <Jafet> If you put code in main, you need to zero out the registers
15:44:02 <Jafet> Actually you also "need to" in _start but linux does that for you
15:44:16 <boily> ghaaaargh! my eyes!
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16:32:57 <Taneb> How come if I see a maths question on Tumblr I can't resist doing it but I have a whole pile of overdue maths homework of my own that I haven't even started
16:33:30 <ais523> Taneb: likely to do with how much it engages your brain
16:33:48 <Taneb> ais523: but it was a really boring maths question
16:34:03 <Taneb> "Sketch the graph 'y = (x - 2)^3 - 6(x - 2)^2 + 9(x- 2)'"
16:34:06 <kmc> Jafet: you only need to zero them out if you're assuming they're zero...
16:34:56 <ais523> Taneb: there are webapps to do that
16:37:06 <Jafet> kmc: or if you syscall
16:37:34 <kmc> i'm required to zero out registers that aren't used by that syscall's arguments?
16:38:02 <kmc> boily: is that your response to looking at the code or to running it? :D
16:38:52 <Jafet> You might need to zero out rax
16:39:50 <kmc> rax holds the syscall number
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16:40:10 <Jafet> Half of rax isn't zeroed out, so rax probably isn't a valid syscall number
16:40:16 <Fiora> rdtsc clobbers rax, then shr eax, 17 guarantees the top of rax is 0
16:40:36 <kmc> there's an 'mov %edi, %eax' right before the syscall
16:40:49 <kmc> %edi is initialized to one and never changed
16:41:04 <Fiora> ahhh. I missed that
16:41:05 <Jafet> rdtsc writes eax:edx
16:41:08 <Fiora> that'll clear the top too
16:41:11 <kmc> the code is kind of obfuscated because I was trying to use the minimum number of bytes
16:41:52 <Jafet> mov doesn't clear the high bits
16:42:19 <kmc> yes it does
16:42:21 <Jafet> Unless this instruction set is crazier than I thought
16:42:35 <Fiora> that's the thing with the 32-bit -> 64-bit extension
16:42:39 <kmc> storing to the lower 32 bits of a 64-bit register clears the upper 32 bits
16:42:48 <kmc> this is supposed to facilitate using 32-bit pointers in 64-bit code, maybe
16:42:55 <Fiora> 32-bit instructions clear the top 32-bits that they don't use, I think they did it that way because of data dependency
16:43:16 <Fiora> since most code uses 32-bit registers for most of its work and having to explicitly clear the top 32 bits would be frustrating
16:43:39 <Fiora> (they really really hate it when you do things like, modify ax, and then modify al, and read ax, and read ah, and modify al, and read ax, and...)
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16:44:18 <Fiora> basically they did exactly the opposite of what happened with 16bit -> 32bit -_-
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16:45:15 <Jafet> `run echo 'main() { asm("xor %edi, %edi\n" "inc %edi\n" "mov %rsp, %rsi\n" "go: movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi)\n" "rdtsc\n" "and $1, %al\n" "add %al, 2(%rsi)\n" "mov %edi, %eax\n" "xor %edx, %edx\n" "mov $3, %dl\n" "syscall\n" "jmp go"); }' > maze.c && gcc maze.c -o maze && ./maze
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16:45:22 <HackEgo> ╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╲
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16:46:54 <Fiora> kmc: oh that reminds me, I think still the silliest consequence of that thing
16:47:00 <Fiora> is that "xchg eax, eax" is no longer a nop
16:48:40 <Fiora> and in the original x86, "xchg eax, eax" happened to be "0x90"
16:48:46 <Fiora> and was used as a nop instruction
16:48:58 <Fiora> but in x86_64 it doesn't work because it clears the top 32 bits of RAX so it suddenly doesn't do nothing anymore!
16:49:10 <Fiora> (but nop is still 0x90. it's just different now.)
16:49:22 <kmc> Jafet: 0x90 is still a NOP but it's a special case in the encoding now
16:49:49 <Jafet> So did they encode xchg eax, eax another way
16:50:41 <Jafet> By the way, cqd is probably the shortest way to clear rdx
16:52:08 <Fiora> or cqo? that weird one
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16:53:19 <Jafet> But in 64-bit mode, wouldn't cdq also clear rdx
16:53:35 <Jafet> x86 should be on the wiki
16:53:45 <Fiora> ummm.... cdq would set all bits in edx equal to bit 31 of eax, I think
16:53:50 <Fiora> and zero the top 32 bits of rdx
16:54:22 <FireFly> ...what is cdq a mnemnoic for?
16:54:38 <kmc> convert doubleword to quadword?
16:54:45 <Fiora> it's a sign extend thing, I think?
16:55:12 <kmc> gas / AT&T syntax calls it "cltd"
16:55:14 <Fiora> cbw does AL -> AX, cwde does AX -> EAX, cdqe does eax -
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16:55:50 <Fiora> and then CWD does AX->DX:AX
16:56:04 <Fiora> and CDQ EAX->EDX:EAX and CQO RAX->RDX:RAX
16:56:13 <Fiora> geez there's more of these than I remembered
16:56:29 <Jafet> Enjoy the power of octwords
16:56:35 <Fiora> I think most commonly they're seen used before divides? like since IDIV is (EDX:EAX / REG)
16:56:42 <Fiora> but mostly you just want to do EAX/REG
16:56:47 <Fiora> so you do CDQ, then IDIV
16:56:57 <Fiora> at least I think I remember that being like the textbook example thing
16:57:23 <fizzie> They encode xchg eax, eax as 87 c0 (aka using the XCHG r/m32, r32 (or I guess the XCHG r32, r/m32 form if you like) encoding, instead of the 90+rw XCHG EAX, r32 special case.
16:57:28 <Jafet> And here I thought it was just to make linux syscall golfing easier
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16:57:39 <Jafet> I should read this textbook
16:57:43 <fizzie> I got my parens all confused there.
16:57:43 <kmc> but we also have movslq and whatever.....
16:57:53 <Fiora> fizzie: I think it looks like the "special case" is now xchg RAX, r64?
16:58:11 <Fiora> if I'm reading the intel manual thing righgt
16:58:32 <fizzie> Fiora: REX.W + 90+rd is what XCHG RAX, r64 is encoded with.
16:58:51 <fizzie> The default operand size is still mostly 32 bits if you don't have a REX.W in place, after all.
16:58:52 <Fiora> oh I'm not reading it right
16:59:46 * Fiora is trying to find where the manual actually mentioned the nop collision thing >_<
17:01:04 <Fiora> either I'm wrong or um, it doesn't even mention this in the section on XCHG ~_~
17:01:24 <fizzie> You are expected to know it. :p
17:01:41 <Fiora> yeah, I'm just like. wow they just siloently redefined it
17:02:50 <boily> kmc: from running it.
17:03:08 <fizzie> Fiora: FWIW, AMD manual is very explict about it.
17:03:28 <fizzie> "The x86 architecture commonly uses the XCHG EAX, EAX instruction (opcode 90h) as a one-byte
17:03:31 <fizzie> NOP. In 64-bit mode, the processor treats opcode 90h as a true NOP only if it would exchange rAX
17:03:35 <fizzie> with itself. Without this special handling, the instruction would zero-extend the upper 32 bits of RAX,
17:03:38 <fizzie> and thus it would not be a true no-operation."
17:03:51 <fizzie> (In XCHG's description page.)
17:04:20 <Fiora> nice!! maybe I should use the AMD ones instead
17:04:35 <fizzie> They're not always as thorough as the Intel ones.
17:04:57 <fizzie> I mean, the PDF is just 474 pages! Who wants to get caught with a manual that thin!
17:05:21 <Fiora> they probably also don't have any instructions AMD hasn't implemented yet, I'd guess
17:05:26 <Fiora> (then again Intel wouldn't have XOP and stuff)
17:05:31 <fizzie> (This was a revision from 2007, and it's just the "Volume 3: General-Purpose and System Instructions", but still.)
17:05:41 <fizzie> I think they have somewhere around 5 volumes.
17:06:04 <fizzie> 1 being the same as Intel's 1; 2 being Intel's 3 (the system programming stuff); 3-5 being the instruction references.
17:06:22 <fizzie> 3 for what I mentioned, 4 for MMX, 5 for SSE. Or something vaguely like that.
17:06:31 <Fiora> do they have AVX yet?
17:06:34 <fizzie> x87 floating-point also went somewhere.
17:06:36 <Fiora> since, I mean, the bulldozer nominally supports it
17:07:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should go fetch a new set and check. I mean, 2007.
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17:07:21 <Fiora> yeah, stuff has sort of happened
17:07:34 <fizzie> There's at least a separate "New “Bulldozer” and “Piledriver” Instructions Guide", the latest in the list of specific guides.
17:08:09 <fizzie> I got it the wrong way around, volume 4 is "128-bit and 256 bit media instructions", and volume 5 is the one with "64-Bit Media and x87 Floating-Point Instructions".
17:08:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing that mostly translates to AVX and BMI1 unless I'm missing another letter salad thing
17:08:28 <fizzie> Latest versions of the manuals are from December 2011, so it probably wouldn't have AVX instructions in it.
17:10:03 <fizzie> The document that the web page says is from "12/13/2011" has Revision History entries from September 2012 in it.
17:10:31 <fizzie> Anything past December 2011 is just "corrected X", though, so maybe bugfixes don't count.
17:11:41 <fizzie> The manual does speak of VEX prefixes, wasn't that an AVX thing?
17:11:58 <Fiora> It was used for xop and BMI and stuff too
17:12:22 <fizzie> Oh, there it is, the December 2010 changelog entry.
17:12:30 <fizzie> "Complete revision and reformat accommodating 128-bit and 256-bit media
17:12:30 <fizzie> instructions. Includes revised definitions of legacy SSE, SSE2, SSE3,
17:12:30 <fizzie> SSE4.1, SSE4.2, and SSSE3 instructions, as well as new definitions of
17:12:30 <fizzie> extended AES, AVX, CLMUL, FMA4, and XOP instructions.
17:12:35 <fizzie> Very future-ready thinking.
17:13:44 <kmc> too many fucking instructions
17:13:59 <fizzie> For some reason AES-NI is also part of the "128-Bit and 256-Bit Media Instructions" volume, though an appendix of it. (I... guess the number of bits is sort of appropriate, at least.)
17:14:38 <kmc> fizzie: it uses SSE registers too
17:15:00 <kmc> if you didn't see them already, here are some simple AES-NI example programs I wrote: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
17:15:27 <Bike> wow elisp has a shitload of special forms
17:15:29 <kmc> sadly it's a bit more complicated than "do AES here"
17:15:55 <Bike> do i even want to know why "with-output-to-temp-buffer" is special cased...
17:16:08 <kmc> elisp is the worst lisp
17:16:39 <Bike> clearly i should rewrite emacs in kernel
17:16:59 <Bike> «A Lisp macro is a list whose CAR is `macro'.» god
17:19:46 <Jafet> What about autolisp
17:20:34 <elliott> Bike: haha what is that from
17:21:21 <fizzie> Ooh, Yle ("Finnish BBC") just made their own channels watchable live in the interwebs. (Probably geoip-limited into Finland.)
17:21:35 <Bike> (append '(lambda (x)) (list (list '+ (* 3 4) 'x))) => a function
17:22:03 <elliott> fizzie: it gives me an error
17:22:17 <Bike> (funcall (append '(lambda (x)) (list (list '+ (* 3 4) 'x))) 9) => 21
17:22:25 <elliott> kokeile ladata sivu y(?)u(?)destaan.
17:22:38 <fizzie> "A connection error happened", roughly translated.
17:22:42 <elliott> 1) Internet-yhteydessä on ongelma (esim?langaton y?teys katkeaa hetkellisesti).
17:22:53 <elliott> these ?s are where the loading spinnre thing obscrues the letters
17:22:57 <fizzie> "Try reloading the page." Yeah, I don't think that's going to help.
17:23:05 <fizzie> It's "uudestaan", but okays.
17:23:16 <elliott> 2) Käytät palvelua ulkomalia, ja ohjelman k(?)atseluoik?us on rajattu vain Suomeen.
17:23:27 <fizzie> Ah, that's the "you're not in Finland!" rule.
17:23:49 <elliott> can I like, proxy through you
17:23:55 <elliott> finnish tv sounds amazing!
17:23:56 <fizzie> I suppose it has to do with copyrights.
17:24:04 <Bike> i hear copyrights r bad
17:24:46 <Bike> In the `double-property' function, we did not quote the `lambda' form. This is permissible, because a `lambda' form is "self-quoting": evaluating the form yields the form itself.
17:25:13 <elliott> anyone know any other good dotty type things in compose key
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17:25:17 <Bike> (car (lambda (x) x)) => lambda, oh my god
17:26:03 <Bike> oh good it says "true compiled code" is machine code
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17:26:49 <Bike> is it swedish for "shitty"
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17:45:13 <Jafet> `run echo 'const long main[]={7957687918238111208,2334956356649383027,8880356687520293229,13906764017533270909,1419365910561212297,2626879827020416271,16736655261603120681,17579598881254060795,1623775261490201216,5242470257800545608,1149026244854305933,14731853813082619653,194239108057989552,837530158351,};' >q.c && gcc q.c -o q && rm q.c
17:45:18 <HackEgo> q.c:1:80: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.c:1: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 \ q.c:1:141: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.c:1: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 \ q.c:1:162: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.
17:45:33 <HackEgo> const long main[]={7957687918238111208,2334956356649383027,8880356687520293229,13906764017533270909,1419365910561212297,2626879827020416271,16736655261603120681,17579598881254060795,1623775261490201216,5242470257800545608,1149026244854305933,14731853813082619653,194239108057989552,837530158351,};
17:47:28 <FreeFull> Even if rather architecture-specific
17:47:56 <FreeFull> Bike: I tried (car (lambda (x) x)) and it works in neither clisp nor racket
17:48:15 <Jafet> It only works in a real lisp like elisp
17:48:28 <Jafet> clisp "hides too much under the hood"
17:48:44 <ais523> also how do you take the car of a lambda?
17:48:54 <ais523> that isn't a cons cell, that's a function
17:49:03 <Jafet> conses all the way down
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17:49:24 <Jafet> Well until you hit the elisp interpreter which is in C
17:49:34 <kmc> some lisps represent functions as lists
17:49:45 <kmc> particularly dynamically scoped lisps, where you don't need to also remember an environment
17:49:49 <ais523> hmm.. if the car is somehow referring to itself
17:49:53 <ais523> that reminds me of Overload a lot
17:49:54 <AnotherTest> so... this 19 year old food trader took down belgium.be using Low Orbit Ion Canon... great security there
17:49:57 <ais523> where you could pull off similar tricks
17:50:20 <ais523> one of the commands in Overload gave you a pointer to itself
17:50:23 <ais523> I forget what it was called
17:50:25 <Jafet> Why does belgium.be need security
17:50:36 <ais523> but it was quite good for writing quines, as you could guess
17:50:40 <Bike> FreeFull: why in god's name would that work in a sane lisp
17:50:53 <AnotherTest> Jafet: because it's our government’s central website
17:51:05 <Bike> ais523: uncompiled functions in emacs are actually conses
17:51:11 <Jafet> That doesn't answer the question
17:51:16 <FreeFull> (car '(lambda (x) x)) works as expected
17:51:41 <AnotherTest> (not that they have any though, you have a point there)
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17:52:00 <Jafet> But they're not the luxembourgian government
17:52:02 <ais523> FreeFull: and returns 'lambda?
17:52:13 <Bike> ais523: so you can write the identity function as (list 'lambda '(x) x)
17:52:15 <ais523> (this is me testing to see if I remember Lisp syntax and semantics correctly)
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17:52:51 <ais523> Bike: so what's the difference between list and eval? anything?
17:53:27 <Bike> ais523: you don't understand. in elisp the list (lambda (x) x) is used as an interpreted function. the list (+ 4 5) is still that list, not 9.
17:53:38 <Jafet> An unimportant part, evidently
17:53:54 <ais523> Bike: aha, they're the same for lists starting with lambda, specifically
17:53:57 <Bike> (eval (list 'lambda '(x) x)) is still the identity function, because lambda is basically an extended quote in uncompiled elisp
17:54:17 <Jafet> Is there compiled elisp now
17:54:30 <Bike> Jafet: it's had a byte compiler for like deaces.
17:54:45 <Bike> (it's probably not very good)
17:54:48 <ais523> so why does that car thing work?
17:55:01 <Bike> which car thing?
17:55:02 <ais523> I'd expect (car (lambda (x) x)) to return 'lambda given the information about elisp so far
17:55:13 <Jafet> Does this mean that using loic on belgium is like... a heart attack
17:56:25 <fizzie> ais523: It was mentioned why it works.
17:56:39 <fizzie> ais523: "This is permissible, because a `lambda' form is "self-quoting": evaluating the form yields the form itself."
17:57:01 <ais523> from the conversation, I thought that (car (lambda (x) x)) would be '(car (lambda (x) x))
17:57:12 <ais523> but I can't think of a semantics insane enough that that owuld work
17:58:04 <ais523> Overload had an uncar operator, by the way
17:58:27 <ais523> you gave it a pointer to an element of a list, and it gave you the entire list
17:58:53 <Bike> also what if the same thing is in multiple lists
17:59:00 <ThatOtherPerson> In my Lisp interpreter, (car (lambda (x) x)) causes an error
17:59:04 <ais523> actually I believe a restricted version of that made it into Underload
17:59:20 <ais523> Jafet: the language Underload is a tarpit of
17:59:35 <ais523> it was never fully specified, I kept changing my mind about things
17:59:42 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: I think it was established that it needs to be a real lisp, like elisp.
17:59:47 <ais523> although it was notable for combining features that probably shouldn't be combined
17:59:58 <fizzie> "Error: (car) bad argument type: #<procedure (? x)>" <- that's not what a real lisp would say!
18:00:27 <fizzie> (Admittedly it was from a Scheme interpreter, so that was obvious.)
18:01:10 <Bike> slow LIKE A LISP INTERPRETER!! Oh man burn
18:01:33 <elliott> Bike: what the fuck is up with markov's principle, man
18:01:36 <ais523> probably the most eso part of Overload was the pointers
18:02:03 <Bike> oh boy the other markov
18:02:51 <Bike> yeah, the one had a son.
18:02:52 <ais523> Jafet: if you're interested I can try to dig up a half-complete interpreter or two
18:03:09 <ais523> there's one in Perl and one in C++, which use very different methods of handling the pointers, although I think they're mostly semantically the same?
18:03:11 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/8/e/c8e611b37d8d4536e513f5a750fc75d6.png using my math knowledge i can determine that this shit is wack, elliott
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18:05:53 <Bike> welcome to intuitionism!
18:06:44 <elliott> wait it's not the same markov. fuck
18:06:47 <ais523> thanks UK keyboard for actually having a ¬ key, even if it basically never comes up
18:07:02 <Bike> elliott: it's his son, imo they're basically the same?
18:07:26 <Jafet> Markov Markoviyich
18:07:38 <Bike> the ¬ key is indispensible for faces, such as ¬_¬
18:07:40 <ion> “US International (AltGr dead keys)” has ¬, too.
18:08:14 <Jafet> I have now mapped ¬ to ^V
18:08:15 -!- augur has joined.
18:08:20 <Bike> so speaking of nothing can someone quickly tell me what a "linearly separable function" is because i'm feeling pretty dumb right now
18:09:40 <Bike> that's a mean thing to do to a function
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18:13:04 <boily> Bike: that's a function that can be expressed as a linear combination of two (or more) other functions: f(x) = a * g(x) + b * h(x)
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18:16:46 <zzo38> Did you make the Lisp interpreter? I don't know a lot of Lisp; do you know of MDL and/or ZIL?
18:17:03 <FreeFull> Be hip, write a lisp interpreter in haskell
18:18:24 -!- augur has joined.
18:25:45 <Phantom_motnahP> fungot: are you going to be hip and write a lisp interpreter in Haskell?
18:25:45 <fungot> Phantom_motnahP: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you.
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18:34:17 <Taneb> Well, my Latin teacher has just resigned
18:35:34 <Taneb> I think it's due to illness
18:35:40 <mnoqy> what happens to latin class
18:35:42 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:36:06 <elliott> maybe it's a latin scandal
18:36:52 <Taneb> Also, there's a new person in my latin class
18:37:07 <Taneb> Further skewing the already dangerously warped gender ratio
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18:46:55 <tromp_> http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp-in-haskell/blaise_src.zip is a lisp written in haskell
18:47:56 <Taneb> Today's Freefall had a great punchline
18:50:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:55:05 <Taneb> BUT THIS MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT A LATIN TEACHER
18:55:59 -!- augur has joined.
19:08:58 <Taneb> But how can I be a latin teacher when I have so much to learn
19:09:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:10:18 <Taneb> What about the latvians
19:11:55 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
19:13:14 <Taneb> What about the Edinburghians
19:13:49 <Phantom___Hoover> Taneb you can't just name random places on the off chance they speak -- Phantom_motnahP WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU
19:13:59 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZZARzpckw splode
19:15:06 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:15:12 -!- Phantom_motnahP has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:15:24 <elliott> wait that wasn't actually ph?
19:15:54 <elliott> probably anothertset he does annoying things like that a lot
19:16:16 <elliott> or... ThatOtherPerson? god I can't keep track of all these new people!!
19:16:26 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover wins civility award 2013 for 100th time in a row
19:16:35 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: we are trying to figure out who logged in as ph
19:16:40 <elliott> ok it's someone from miami
19:16:45 <elliott> who the hell would be in miami...
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19:18:41 <mnoqy> what all did motnahp say
19:18:56 <Phantom___Hoover> 18:25:45: <Phantom_motnahP> fungot: are you going to be hip and write a lisp interpreter in Haskell?
19:18:56 <fungot> Phantom___Hoover: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! tastes like chicken! yes. this is the mayor's education center!
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19:37:53 <Fiora> he needs a lot of hugs :<
19:38:01 <Fiora> s/needs/deserves/, even
19:39:58 <kmc> at least I got a fun new toy today
19:40:01 <kmc> software defined radio
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19:42:24 <Bike> oh it's... a weird thing
19:43:07 <elliott> it's definitely a radio station kmc is running on his computer.
19:43:21 <Bike> like i said, a weird thing
19:43:25 <Bike> radio free keegan
19:43:25 <ThatOtherPerson> Apparently it's a radio where most of the work normally done by hardware is done by software
19:43:29 <kmc> it's a radio that can be tuned through a wide range of frequencies, which sends raw amplitude / phase samples to a computer
19:43:39 <kmc> and then the computer can perform whatever decoding / demodulating you need
19:43:49 <kmc> so it can listen to a lot of different kinds of analog and digital transmissions
19:44:12 <kmc> in this case the hardware is a cheap USB TV tuner dongle that turns out to have the appropriate hardware under the hood
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19:45:06 <Bike> good ol' dongles
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19:47:25 <kmc> so far I can use all this equipment to... listen to commercial FM radio
19:47:31 <kmc> which is mostly commercials and bad music
19:47:36 <kmc> money well spent I say
19:47:53 <kmc> i'm running some script to compile all of GNU Radio and a bunch of other nonsense and we'll see what I can do then
19:48:01 <Bike> imo you should start a talk radio station
19:48:08 <Bike> really get on those lizard people's case
19:49:02 <elliott> kmc: when can i listen to kmc radio
19:49:33 <zzo38> Can it play AM radio?
19:49:38 <kmc> zzo38: I think so
19:50:18 <zzo38> Can it play weather band, air traffic control, police band, etc?
19:50:58 <Vorpal> Sound on Linux is such a mess. :/
19:53:52 <kmc> zzo38: think so
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19:54:36 <ion> I think police radio is encrypted here.
19:54:44 <Taneb> I know it isn't here
19:57:07 <ThatOtherPerson> I know for sure that there's military, there's this guy with a machine gun who's always in my school's parking lot
19:58:46 <ThatOtherPerson> My school is on the grounds of the US Consulate, so we're fairly well guarded
19:59:09 <Taneb> My mum went to school for a bit in an Italian school in Pakistan
20:00:04 <kmc> no luck tuning AM radio with the simple software I have
20:00:30 <kmc> i might also have the wrong kind of antenna
20:02:15 <Vorpal> Anyone know if Arduino supports "proper" C? As opposed to that Sketch thingy. I'm looking for a device for running a small embedded software and I'm not thrilled by what I have seen of the IDE. I would just prefer a standard setup using make (or tup probably) with non-hosted C.
20:02:41 <kmc> i can help you make it go
20:02:56 <Vorpal> I don't have a device yet, I'm evaluating my options currently.
20:03:16 <Vorpal> kmc, is it hard to make it work?
20:03:17 <kmc> i write C code and compile it with avr-gcc and upload it with avrdude
20:03:19 <kmc> no it's easy
20:03:41 <kmc> usually I use a small shell script rather than a makefile, there's no need for separate compilation or anything
20:03:44 <Vorpal> Hm, the AVR has no MMU though
20:03:49 <kmc> if the whole program fits in a few kB ;P
20:04:09 <kmc> it's a tiny embedded processor
20:04:13 <Vorpal> It would habe been neat to write a small RTOS for this, but meh, that IS kind of overkill
20:04:22 <boily> the AVR has definitely no MMU at all. *grmbl*
20:04:23 <kmc> even moderately powerful ARM microcontrollers don't always have a MMU
20:04:29 <kmc> it's just not needed for embedded stuff
20:04:51 <kmc> Arduinos are kind of expensive, but the raw AVR chip is like $4
20:04:55 <kmc> and you can get smaller ones for $2
20:05:12 <Vorpal> I do need a board for it though, I'm pretty terrible at soldering.
20:05:19 <kmc> only one way to get better
20:05:30 <kmc> building your own AVR breakout boards from scratch is pointless
20:05:37 <boily> Vorpal: get a breadboard and a teensy.
20:05:38 <Vorpal> Yeah, destroying AVR is not the way go ;P
20:05:49 <kmc> you can find cheaper AVR-based boards than Arduino
20:05:57 <kmc> some have a software-only USB stack
20:06:02 <kmc> Arduino is fine though
20:06:05 * boily hollers with full pulmonary force: TEEEEENSYYYYY!
20:06:09 <Vorpal> kmc, any hardware debug in Aurduino?
20:06:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I used a hardware JTAG debugger with AVR at university before. Worked well.
20:07:17 <Vorpal> Think it was called the AVR Dragon
20:07:42 <kmc> not that i've used
20:08:05 <Vorpal> wow those are kind of expensive
20:08:26 <Vorpal> kmc, what about emulation?
20:08:36 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:08:47 <Vorpal> I'm not thrilled by the idea of not being able to debug the thing
20:09:10 <kmc> i usually debug by sending data back over serial
20:09:12 <kmc> it's not the best
20:09:15 <kmc> i haven't used any emulator
20:10:00 <Vorpal> So maybe going for an ARM based board and using a real time Linux patch set would be less painful, though more expensive.
20:10:06 <Vorpal> At least I could use gdb on that.
20:10:48 <Vorpal> I wonder what (if any) real time linux distros there is for the RPi for example...
20:10:52 <pikhq> Hmm. Might be fun playing with software-defined radio.
20:11:01 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure my tuner card will work for it.
20:11:35 <pikhq> Ludicrously old TV tuner card with a BT878.
20:11:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, what are you doing?
20:11:53 <pikhq> Works just fine; last used it yesterday.
20:11:59 <Vorpal> )I have that in my phone)
20:12:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Thinking about maybe using it for software-defined radio.
20:12:08 <pikhq> That's a TV tuner card.
20:12:17 <Vorpal> what do you mean by "software defined radio"?
20:12:35 <pikhq> Basically, where you use hardware to tune a signal and do all other processing in software.
20:13:01 <Vorpal> would a TV tuner work for that? Don't usually decode on the board.
20:13:23 <pikhq> Some do. This particularly old one is an ADC and a tuner.
20:14:50 <Vorpal> what frequency range does it support?
20:14:52 <kmc> i think with this DVB TV dongle it's in some debug mode
20:15:06 <kmc> god bless hw engineers for leaving that stuff in
20:15:20 <Vorpal> kmc, did you want that mode or not?
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20:15:40 <pikhq> Not sure what the range is, aside from the obvious (TV signal frequencies in all countries)
20:15:48 <kmc> i mean that's the mode that lets it function as an SDR
20:16:00 <Vorpal> Software-defined radio
20:16:07 <pikhq> (... yes, all. This thing actually tunes PAL. Wheeee.)
20:16:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, PAL is most common after all, so that makes sense
20:16:28 <pikhq> Sadly, I don't have an antenna for it.
20:16:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Over-the-air there's not a single PAL.
20:16:49 <pikhq> There's like a dozen OTA PAL variants.
20:16:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, not an antenna for PAL or not an antenna for it at all?
20:16:56 <pikhq> Not an antenna at all.
20:17:09 <pikhq> I'm using it for composite display.
20:18:28 <pikhq> The difference between the different PAL variants is basically just the frequency of the color and audio carrier, and the alotted channel bandwidth.
20:18:34 <pikhq> With different band plans.
20:18:55 <pikhq> Well, and PAL-M, which is friggin' weird.
20:19:03 <pikhq> NTSC with PAL color.
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20:22:07 <Vorpal> Wait, they redesigned kernel.org?
20:22:42 <Vorpal> On my screen that font is pretty ugly and blurry
20:23:05 <Vorpal> "Oxygen" is the font, ugh
20:23:28 <pikhq> kmc: I suppose you could do silly tricks with the FM signals. Like, say, pull in the random weird subcarrier services.
20:24:08 <elliott> oh no kernel.org's font has changed...............
20:24:33 <Bike> is it comic sans
20:24:36 <olsner> there went all hope of linux on the desktop
20:25:06 <Taneb> Bike: the font of Simon Peyton-Jones?
20:25:34 <Bike> https://plus.google.com/+Linux/posts linux google+ is weirding me out
20:26:32 <kmc> pikhq: hm, like what?
20:26:39 <kmc> elliott: crisis on infinite earths
20:26:56 <pikhq> HD Radio, radio reading service for the blind, Muzak... :P
20:27:13 <pikhq> There's lots of silly stuff shoved on that band.
20:27:17 <olsner> scrolling text ads from RDS
20:27:24 <pikhq> HD Radio is probably the least silly.
20:27:29 <pikhq> Phantom___Hoover: Just talking about it really.
20:28:58 <olsner> but iirc RDS is encoded in the audio data somehow (but perhaps in such a way that you can pick it out of the ether directly?)
20:29:53 <fizzie> There are quite a few people I know dabbling with SDR these days.
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20:30:37 <kmc> yeah it's popular now
20:30:42 <kmc> the USB dongles are so cheap
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20:30:47 <fizzie> Buying E4000's -- http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr -- and the http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1085541682/bladerf-usb-30-software-defined-radio thing.
20:33:23 <pikhq> olsner: It's another subcarrier service.
20:33:53 <pikhq> Looks like it's... 57kHz above the carrier?
20:33:57 <fizzie> (By a curious coincidence, I've also got an old bt878 card that I've used a couple of times as a composite-in device, in order to make the computer pretend to be a monitor for things.)
20:34:09 <fizzie> 03:06.0 Multimedia video controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Video Capture (rev 11)
20:34:17 <pikhq> It's handy for composite in.
20:34:26 <fizzie> There it sits, last used a year or two ago.
20:34:49 <fizzie> It did show up in some "do you want to make video calls with this" dialog though.
20:39:51 <fizzie> I've got an af9015 DVB-T dongle too, but I don't think anyone has made any figuring-out of how to do anything like rtl_sdr on it.
20:40:02 <fizzie> "Documentation for the AF901x family can be obtained from AFA (under NDA), but it is apparently confusing, as well as incomplete."
20:42:03 * pikhq grins somewhat at people using SDR for GPS reception.
20:43:12 <kmc> did you see http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm
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20:45:53 <fizzie> The af9015 is still better than the DVB-C USB box that doesn't even manage to reliably do DVB: it's an USB 1.1 device, so the bandwidth isn't enough to deliver the entire MPEG transport stream for any of the bundles they use here; on the other hand, the Linux drivers don't support the hardware "filter one program" mode the box has.
20:51:07 <kmc> of course this DVB dongle is useless for watching actual TV here, AMERICA
20:51:37 <fizzie> What did you guys do, something AT something?
20:51:58 <kmc> it would be funny if the SDR setup was good enough to do ATSC in realtime
20:52:02 <kmc> but it probably isn't?
20:52:40 <fizzie> The friend fiddling with the E4000 was just listening to FM radio with it. I don't really know anyone who's done anything "sensible" with that stuff.
20:55:02 <fizzie> Our building's going to be switching cable TV providers, so I think the DVB-T dongle will become pretty useless here too. (The current one, as a quasi-unofficial service, pushes DVB-T signals also over their cable network; but I don't think the others do that. And the tiny table antenna that came with the dongle doesn't really catch a stable anything.)
20:56:44 <zzo38> I happen to think ATSC is terrible for various reasons
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21:21:40 <fizzie> Quoting from the driver source for the DVB-C box: [[the DSP supports filtering in hardware, however, since the "muxstream" is a bit braindead (no matching channel masks or no matching filter mask), we won't support this - yet. it doesn't event support negative filters, so the best way is maybe to keep TTUSB_HWSECTIONS undef'd and just parse TS data. USB bandwidth will be a problem when having ...
21:21:46 <fizzie> ... large datastreams, especially for dvb-net, but hey, that's not my problem.]]
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21:22:36 <kmc> what's dvb-net?
21:23:04 <olsner> "not my problem"? why is someone writing a driver for it if it isn't their problem!?
21:23:49 <fizzie> I think it's some kind of a "generic datastream encapsulation in DVB" thing.
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21:24:19 <fizzie> olsner: If you do go ahead and #define TTUSB_HWSECTIONS, you hit #error TODO: handle ugly stuff.
21:24:21 <quintopia> did i surprise you by answering after such a delay
21:25:26 <quintopia> well thats what you get for asking random people random questions when they're not around
21:25:55 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think whoever wrote it has had a relevant device in a while, since nothing seems to have happened to it in years.
21:26:24 <fizzie> kmc: "The DVB net device enables feeding of MPE (multi protocol encapsulation) packets received via DVB into the Linux network protocol stack, e.g. for internet via satellite applications. It can be accessed through /dev/dvb/adapter0/net0."
21:26:50 <olsner> I guess if you're interested enough to write a driver for some DVB device, you're also interested enough to get a dvb device that actually works
21:26:54 <fizzie> There seem to be rather few references to this thing, makes one wonder if it has ever really been done.
21:27:36 <fizzie> olsner: The same driver handles quite a few devices, most of which have been sensible enough to do USB 2.0 so that you *can* in fact just slurp the entire TS. I assume the driver-writer had one of these.
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21:50:56 <pikhq> kmc: Honestly it'd be pretty neat if it was good enough to do low-res NTSC in realtime.
21:52:07 <pikhq> (at least as far as I understand it, if you're willing to utterly ignore color you can get away with significantly lower sampling rates, but at the cost of getting insanely shit resolution)
21:52:39 <pikhq> (this may not be the case though: I'm a code guy, not some radio tech. :P)
21:52:53 <Fiora> with stuff like digital OTA TV, how much stuff happens in the analog layer (the stuff the SDR has to do?) and how much in the digital layer?
21:54:40 <fizzie> "What has been successfully tested so far is the reception of Broadcast FM and air traffic AM radio, TETRA, GMR, GSM, ADS-B and POCSAG", is what the rtl-sdr project page says.
21:56:06 <fizzie> There's a large TETRA network in Finland (VIRVE), used by things like police, fire departments, etc.; unfortunately (or not so unfortunately), it's encrypted.
21:57:10 <olsner> "In NTSC, chrominance is encoded using two 3.579545 MHz signals [...]", so I guess you'd need at least 7MS/s to decode it ... not sure if this "QAM" magic adds other requirements
21:58:31 <zzo38> Do you know any software NTSC encode/decode even if not real time, but is from a file instead? Can such things be added into ImageMagick?
22:00:13 <fizzie> There's software to fiddle with SSTV (naturally), but those modes are quite different.
22:00:37 <fizzie> (Still: pictures in a phone, how cool is that?)
22:00:46 <olsner> hmm, and QAM requires phase synchronization, so I guess it's difficult
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22:02:06 <fizzie> People seem to have used GNURadio + USRP to decode NTSC.
22:02:27 <fizzie> That's "proper SDR", of course.
22:03:06 <olsner> doesn't that have a FPGA to do processing?
22:04:04 <fizzie> None of the GNUradio stuff would run on the FPGA, though. (I don't think it was done in realtime.)
22:05:00 <zzo38> Voltage/phase colorspace might also be a useful thing to have, if the channels are L=low voltage, H=high voltage, P=phase, then I think the conversion might be (maybe I am wrong, though): Y' = H+L; U = (H-L)*cos(P); V = (H-L)*sin(P);
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22:56:16 <pikhq> olsner: Note that you can get meaningful signals without chrominance.
23:01:42 <kmc> software radio trip report:
23:01:45 <kmc> have found many beeps and bloops
23:01:47 <kmc> no humans yet
23:02:52 <pikhq> No luck finding a number station?
23:05:45 <fizzie> Bleeps and bloops are probably evidence of scheming robots.
23:06:08 <shachaf> better than common lisping robots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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23:13:11 <fizzie> It is probably not a coincidence that ELISP ROBOT is an anagram of TRIES BLOOP.
23:13:18 <ion> elliott: I also like
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23:25:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you like bleeps/bloops
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23:26:14 <mnoqy> depends on what sort of bleeps/bloops we're talking here
23:31:16 <lambdabot> *** "boor" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:31:16 <lambdabot> n 1: a crude uncouth ill-bred person lacking culture or
23:31:16 <lambdabot> refinement [syn: {peasant}, {barbarian}, {boor}, {churl},
23:32:09 <quintopia> did someone call you a boor shachaf
23:32:58 <shachaf> i was going to call someone a boor
23:33:08 <shachaf> but then i realized that the english word isn't related to the hebrew word
23:33:25 <Bike> what's the hebrew word?
23:33:52 <shachaf> It means, uh, an uneducated person?
23:34:32 <Bike> so the same, except they're not related?
23:34:38 <shachaf> or maybe it is related......
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23:36:45 <olsner> related to berber/barbarian or something?
23:37:12 <shachaf> I don't think so. But who knows.
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23:38:00 <Bike> ooh, it's from Dutch
23:38:05 <Bike> good job copumpkin
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