00:00:25 <kmc> FRACTRAN is a cool esolang
00:09:29 <Sgeo> Godddammit dropbox stop being slow as pain
00:10:10 <Bike> http://www.jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4523.html deuce explains the commutator
00:10:12 <Sgeo> asdfasdfasdf the select files box did open I just dudn't see it
00:12:44 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16240872/crossdomain/demo.htm
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00:13:16 <Sgeo> Hmm. "Origin http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com is not allowed by Access-Control-Allow-Origin."
00:13:32 <Sgeo> Does that imply that farmingdale is in fact sending Access-Control-Allow-Origin data?
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00:15:06 <Sgeo> Switched it to example.com
00:15:48 <tswett> Sgeo: is the domain of a .js file actually the domain of the file including it?
00:16:24 <Sgeo> It should be, I think.
00:16:34 <Sgeo> Well, the domain of the global window object
00:16:41 <Sgeo> Whatever it is
00:16:50 <tswett> So, you guys know how Finnish is a cipher of Japanese?
00:16:59 <tswett> German is likewise a cipher of French, right?
00:17:39 <Sgeo> Oh, switching to example.com is dumb
00:17:45 <Bike> common misconception, it's actually romansh it's a cipher of
00:19:18 <pikhq> It's all like, "fingo ga hen da", only encrypted!
00:21:08 <Sgeo> http://snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu/~goldsj6/crossdomain/demo.htm
00:21:14 <Sgeo> goddammit dropbox
00:21:28 <kmc> more like fartbox (a box you fart in)
00:21:41 <Sgeo> Apparently dropbox supports CORS?
00:21:52 <Sgeo> I need a packer sniffer
00:22:17 <Bike> Sgeo: sweet blank page
00:22:19 <Sgeo> Ok. I want two domains, neither of which support cors
00:22:26 <Sgeo> Bike, look at Javascript console.
00:22:43 <Sgeo> And at where resources are coming from
00:23:39 <Bike> the same combination on my luggage
00:25:03 <Sgeo> It's retrieving it cross-domain
00:26:13 <Bike> that counts as cross domain?
00:26:20 * pikhq feels like taking a risk; apt-get update
00:26:22 <Bike> the script and the info are both dropboxusercontent.
00:26:39 <Sgeo> That should count as cross-domain, although my boss disagrees.
00:27:04 <Bike> why should it?
00:27:18 <Sgeo> Because the page itself is on snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu
00:27:45 <Bike> i mean, what's the securty flaw
00:28:17 <Sgeo> Let's say gmail.com hosts some .js file. If I can trick the file into retrieving something interesting then calling my code, I now have something interesting.
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00:33:34 <tswett> Hey, so you guys know immibis?
00:34:35 <Sgeo> Can I disable CORS somehow?
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00:41:46 <Sgeo> Warning: This method must not be called from JavaScript.
00:42:32 <Sgeo> (init() on an XMLHttpRequest in Firefox)
00:43:37 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
00:48:36 <Sgeo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM/XMLHttpRequest
00:50:11 <Bike> type: Function?
00:51:27 <Sgeo> I want to test what happens without the interference of CORS
00:51:52 <Lumpio-> You're trying to break same-origin?
00:52:12 <Lumpio-> For .js files where the .js file itself comes from doesn't change the origin context
00:52:19 <Lumpio-> It's always set by the document.
00:52:26 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, I am aware of this. I want to show my boss
00:52:37 <Lumpio-> He thinks it doesn't work like that? ¬u¬
00:52:47 <Lumpio-> Just post a link to the specs or whatev
00:53:07 <Sgeo> Specs suck when it comes to "Does this work on the web"
00:54:39 <Sgeo> You know what the fun part is? It wouldn't really matter so much if cookies weren't sent with every request to a domain no matter who originated that request.
00:55:46 <kmc> shachaf: "For example, http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7634 ought to be a CVE" -- ezyang
00:55:51 <kmc> go pro troll and request one
00:56:38 <kmc> a number identifying a security vulnerability
00:57:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
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01:08:54 <kmc> also GHC still has loads of RWX pages :(
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01:25:28 <JesseH> I just got something that is similar to "goto" implemented in my language. ^_^
01:25:49 <Bike> i hear goto is considered harmful
01:25:49 <JesseH> Now if I get the "if" thingie implemented you might be able to do something with this confusing pile of shit :D
01:26:17 <kmc> "considered harmful" considered harmful
01:26:35 <kmc> Bike: what about asm goto
01:27:12 <JesseH> Harm things? I hope so.
01:27:16 <Bike> kmc, have you seen knuth's paper about goto, 's cool
01:27:23 <kmc> potatos are great
01:27:35 <kmc> it must have sucked to live in europe before they got all the cool foods from the new world
01:27:39 <Bike> "Structured programming with GO TO statements"
01:27:43 <kmc> italian food with no tomatoes
01:27:45 <Bike> direct response to djikstra
01:27:50 <Bike> dijkstra? dutch
01:28:12 <JesseH> basically, in my language, everything in between the :'s have a numerical number..which is in order
01:28:14 <Bike> what was europe's staple crop anyway
01:28:36 <JesseH> You can now hop to any part of the program :D
01:29:05 <Bike> oh, wheat, duh
01:30:07 <Bike> apparently the most productive corn farms are in israel nowadays
01:30:11 <kmc> then they got the potato in ireland and the population doubled
01:30:12 <Bike> ~*~globalization~*~
01:30:15 <kmc> then it dropped by half >_<
01:30:45 <mnoqy> disease or famine or
01:30:54 <Bike> he's talking about the famine presumably
01:30:54 <kmc> famine brought on by potato disease
01:30:59 <kmc> since they were all like the same species
01:31:07 <Bike> in which case you can blame the disease and also britain (THANKS ELLIOTT)
01:31:32 <JesseH> I love this channel XD
01:31:43 <JesseH> I'm so used to being kicked and banned for saying off-topic shit
01:31:54 <JesseH> You know that you can't talk about ubuntu in #ubuntu?
01:31:55 <Bike> JesseH: how could would you say your language is at resource allocation in emergency conditions
01:32:01 <kmc> "I think we are on the verge of discovering at last what programming languages should really be like." -- Donald Knuth, 1974
01:32:02 <Bike> (now it's on-topic. you're welcome)
01:32:15 <Bike> *how good would
01:32:16 <JesseH> no no i'm not complaining!
01:32:22 <JesseH> please continue to speak about potatos
01:32:27 <Bike> that's good. complaints are off-topic.
01:32:38 <kmc> boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew
01:32:41 <Bike> be happy, citizen
01:32:48 <JesseH> kmc, forgot the rest D:
01:33:17 <JesseH> Bike, this is a high level esoteric language
01:33:20 <kmc> ah the british stole the best land in ireland for grazing cows
01:35:07 <kmc> (that's a cow, hth)
01:37:17 <JesseH> Isn't there a moo language?
01:37:32 <Sgeo> There's the language that MOOs use
01:38:40 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/COW
01:39:18 <mnoqy> of course it's a brainfuck
01:40:32 <Sgeo> Blah, CORS considers POST of application/x-ww-form-urlencoded to be a "simple request" that it can just go ahead and send to a remote server without asking
01:40:39 <Sgeo> (Because of course it could be done without CORS)
01:43:02 <Sgeo> (Actually, hmm, not so sure)
01:46:28 <Sgeo> Oh, I think if CORS isn't used browser still complains with a CORS sounding message
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01:49:48 <Sgeo> Ta-da http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16240872/crossdomain/demo.htm
01:50:10 <Sgeo> Might need to use Wireshark though to convince someone that snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu isn't explicitly denying it
01:51:40 <kmc> this is a demonstration for work?
01:51:55 <Sgeo> For a disagreement I have with my boss
01:51:58 <Sgeo> Tangeltally related to work
01:54:09 <Sgeo> Hum. I think the server is actually SENDING the contents of the file, just the browser is refusing to tell the Javascript what it is.
01:54:22 * Sgeo wonders if there are any interesting implications of this.
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02:06:11 <Sgeo> 'Therefore, sites that prevent cross-site request forgery have nothing new to fear from HTTP access control.'
02:06:39 <Sgeo> Yes, but sites that are already vulnerable to CSRF just found being CSRFed slightly easier for the attacker to do.... which I guess isn't a big deal.
02:09:18 <JesseH> Hi can anyone look through the language overview and give me tips on what else the language needs? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
02:10:22 <Sgeo> I just thought of an attack scenario due to CORS.
02:10:36 <Bike> JesseH: 99 bottles
02:10:52 <JesseH> Bike, really? ill totally add that if you want ^^
02:11:01 <JesseH> bike: will print out "99 bottles"
02:11:28 <Lumpio-> That's what CORS does. It sends a GET request.
02:11:28 <Bike> as in 99 bottles of beer
02:11:35 <Lumpio-> This is why you don't ever make a GET request change anything.
02:11:41 <Lumpio-> You've been able to do that since the beginning of time anyways
02:11:41 <Sgeo> Suppose you're on insecure wifi, and you're aware of it, so you decide that you won't visit youridiotbankthatdoesntusehttps.com
02:11:51 <Lumpio-> With script elements, img elements, iframes, whatnot
02:12:02 <mnoqy> bike's saying your language needs more beer
02:12:11 <Bike> "99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer; take one down, pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall! 98 bottles of beer on the wall, 98 bottles of beer...[etc]"
02:12:17 <Bike> alt. something remotely interesting, like ackermann
02:12:22 <Sgeo> But, on accident, you do visit evil.com, and someone working with evil.com is snooping your traffic.
02:12:35 <JesseH> I've heard the reference before
02:12:38 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure that's a known attack vector, Sgeo
02:13:00 <Bike> JesseH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/99_bottles_of_beer
02:13:01 <Sgeo> evil.com sends a simple CORS request with credentials to the bank.
02:13:16 <Lumpio-> It doesn't even need to be a CORS request it can be a damn img tag
02:13:31 <Sgeo> ....good point.
02:13:53 <Bike> i don't think evil.com deserves this slander
02:14:04 <JesseH> Ohhhh Bike okay i understand now!
02:14:50 <Bike> JesseH: also implement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function
02:15:52 <JesseH> Alright thanks for the tips
02:17:05 <Sgeo> "Important note: when responding to a credentialed request, server must specify a domain, and cannot use wild carding. "
02:17:32 <Sgeo> I guess server could reflect Origin, but then what if it's cached
02:17:36 <JesseH> Bike, Does it have to get the first number, and put that in front of the string?
02:17:37 <Sgeo> Oh, it being cached can be blocked
02:17:44 <Bike> JesseH: does what have to what
02:18:31 <JesseH> i have to write a program in my language that if you type something, it will manipulate that data and return something else
02:18:57 <JesseH> I need an if statement in my language...I know that
02:19:01 <Bike> i for one don't care about i/o
02:19:06 <Bike> how you do it, rather
02:19:14 <Bike> just have something compute ackermann somehow
02:19:18 <Lumpio-> Sgeo: Again, an img tag will always send credentials .-.
02:19:23 <Lumpio-> You can't even disable it.
02:19:29 <Bike> you don't 'need' an if statement per se
02:19:38 <Bike> you can compute ackmerann in lambda calculus if you hate yourself sufficiently
02:19:55 <Bike> or more realistically use the µ-recursive formalism
02:20:02 <Sgeo> Lumpio-, I'm saying what if I want to receive and reply to non-simple credentialed requests for some reason
02:20:04 <Bike> "old skoooool"
02:21:08 <Lumpio-> One of the few languages I've actually bothered to implement was a language that gave you functions and a way to call them and then you could implement stuff like integers by hand.
02:21:25 <Lumpio-> Or well it gave you a way to define functions. None exist to begin with
02:25:34 <JesseH> ackerman function is a bit confusing. I may just be sleepy.
02:26:04 <Bike> it's a "pretty cool function"
02:26:08 <Bike> lern that math
02:26:12 <JesseH> I'm looking at other examples
02:26:56 <JesseH> How could I do this without if statement?
02:27:32 <JesseH> How can I write this in a language without the ability to create functions?
02:27:49 <mnoqy> you can't do much in an imperative language without control flow :-)
02:27:54 <Bike> that's pretty vague
02:28:01 <mnoqy> Bike: well have you seen the spec
02:28:04 <Bike> imagine doing it on a turing machine if you like
02:28:06 <mnoqy> it has no "conditional jumps"
02:28:29 <lifthrasiir> so no control flows and still trying to be Turing-complete?
02:28:30 <mnoqy> closest it gets are "repeat this thing `n` times" and "unconditional jump"
02:28:31 <JesseH> I can add conditions >:P
02:28:42 <mnoqy> lifthrasiir: well obv. it's not tc
02:28:54 <JesseH> That's the part I'm working on
02:28:59 <mnoqy> conditions are so mainstream
02:28:59 <JesseH> Seeing what I need for it to be turing complete
02:29:27 <Bike> well, if it can compute the ackermann function it's turing complete, probably, so there's a goal
02:29:34 <lifthrasiir> mnoqy: of course it is not TC but sometimes very obscure feature can turn out to be a "TC-able control flow"
02:29:38 <mnoqy> Bike: um are you sure
02:29:38 <JesseH> In my language, to go on forever, printing a number that gets bigger each time you do this...
02:29:48 <Bike> mnoqy: "probably"!!
02:30:20 <Bike> though can you make tcness out of composing ackermanns or some shit, iunno
02:30:33 <mnoqy> ackermanns is total sooooooooo
02:30:42 <lifthrasiir> JesseH: I can't get a gist of your language (from the past log), can you describe a bit more? :)
02:31:12 <JesseH> nu:x:0:ad:y:x:1:ou:y:gt:4
02:31:13 <Bike> oh right, you need to halt at some point, durr.
02:32:01 <JesseH> well that just prints 1 forever :/
02:33:03 <JesseH> lifthrasiir, sorry im super thinking
02:33:13 <JesseH> brains cpu is all on one thing right now
02:33:20 <mnoqy> what's cool is those "conjecturally tc" languages where you've got tc iff someones math conjecture holds
02:33:21 <JesseH> You can force close or wait
02:33:38 <Bike> mnoqy: more interesting than 'something something goldman's' i hope
02:33:48 <mnoqy> i think there are at least two?
02:33:52 <mnoqy> probably one is that
02:33:53 <Bike> or whatever the prime one is? how do i always forget it
02:33:59 <lifthrasiir> JesseH: yes, it is definitely not TC, meaning that it is not on the same level as other esolangs and normal languages (at least conceptually)
02:34:06 <Bike> we should stop naming people after elements
02:34:27 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Oozlybub_and_Murphy this is the goldbach one, thank's cpressey
02:34:35 <mnoqy> forget where the other one is
02:34:42 <lifthrasiir> Bike: and hydrogen should be renamed to unium
02:34:51 <Bike> infinitely long identifiers, nice
02:35:00 <JesseH> lifthrasiir, turing completeness is my goal
02:35:47 <lifthrasiir> there are several ways to add turing completeness
02:36:37 <JesseH> I think ill make the if statement only check if the two variables are ==
02:36:45 <JesseH> That will make things interesting.
02:36:54 <lifthrasiir> but in general you need i) unbounded code repetition or loop and ii) unbounded storage that can be read and written arbitrarily (though it can be also arbitrarily slow)
02:38:37 <Bike> imo, jesseh should learn ski calculus and then make something interesting
02:39:08 <mnoqy> imo make something sub-tc and interesting
02:39:27 <kmc> make something which is tc iff the riemann hypothesis holds
02:39:37 <Bike> that sounds painful.
02:40:11 <JesseH> ill making something that is only sometimes tc
02:40:12 <kmc> "One lesser known aspect of the game deals with the numerous tree stumps found around the slopes of SkiFree. Users have found that when skied over backwards they transform into a small spotty mushroom.... The mushrooms may illustrate an extrapolation of Plato's theory of ideas in which the physical form of something may not reveal its true identity and only its representation in our particular plane of existence."
02:40:51 <JesseH> everytime the interpreter is run, it throws a random, and if it is whatever value, it will use the code that makes it turing complete
02:41:02 <Bike> i should make an esolang based on dynamics instead of all this "discreteness" crap. first, i will learn to math
02:41:29 <lifthrasiir> CHI... I don't remember the name right now
02:41:50 <Bike> reminds me of neumann's paper on computing neural networks with faulty components, except suxx0rz
02:42:11 <lifthrasiir> which has a simple instruction X which supposedly makes the entire language TC
02:42:34 <lifthrasiir> the reference implementation invokes Perl for that purpose
02:43:29 <pikhq> #!/bin/perl \n #X :P
02:46:25 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/12868568fcce5b6a70804b519de198f3/tumblr_mm480oyaRw1qjyqixo1_1280.jpg h t h
02:50:16 <JesseH> I'm going to bed. Tomorrow...turring completeness is among us.
03:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i choose to interpret this as a savaging of dinosaur comics
03:04:20 <Bike> good interpretation
03:06:14 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: john carmack didn't come up with the magic inverse square root constant? if i was the hero-worshipping type i'd be shattered
03:09:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with allowing a webpage to read arbitrary domains' GETable-without-cookies stuff?
03:09:23 <Sgeo> In theory, someone could just put up a server somewhere that allows that indirectly
03:10:07 <Bike> maybe the real problems is just cookies in general eh
03:10:51 <Sgeo> They need to be scrapped and a new mechanism developed.
03:12:12 <constant> Sgeo: imagine I requested page A with cookies and it is now cached
03:12:30 <constant> if an arbitrary page could read that, they may get sensative data
03:12:46 <Sgeo> Well, if you're not sending the cookies, it deserves to be considered different in the cache.
03:13:01 <ais523> also, even if there's no private data involved
03:13:08 <ais523> they can measure how long it takes for the request to come back
03:13:14 <ais523> to see if you've visited the website recently
03:13:47 <constant> even without cookies, they can use: "did this image come back fast enough"
03:14:16 <constant> Sgeo: also, some (silly) websites don't have indepotent GET requests
03:14:33 <coppro> that should be a shooting offence
03:14:58 <Sgeo> constant, said websites are already screwed
03:15:17 <constant> Sgeo: it turns a misconfiguration or miscoding application bug into a security issue
03:15:45 <Sgeo> It was already a security issue.
03:16:00 <Sgeo> img tag with src, or attacker's proxy somewhere
03:16:34 <constant> years ago I used to know all this stuff, havn't done web application pen testing for a long time though
03:17:06 <mnoqy> hm that reminds me of reading in a ph'p book that used extract on $_GET or $_POST i forget which (both?)..... i forget the book too
03:17:24 <mnoqy> http://php.net/manual/en/function.extract.php what a cute language
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03:18:05 <Bike> Oh, yeah, that used to be infamous.
03:18:19 <Bike> But uh... I guess they still let you do it, huh.
03:18:40 <Bike> oh right, it's register_globals
03:18:41 <constant> register_globals is horrible too
03:18:47 <mnoqy> ah i remember that too
03:20:02 <Bike> "superglobals"
03:29:30 <Sgeo> You know what would be interesting? A browser marketing itself (and trying to be) secure by sacrificing some backwards-compatibility
03:42:56 <kmc> what do i need to know about heap corruption exploits
03:43:15 <kmc> i get this idea that you can overwrite block list pointers and use that to trick the allocator into writing a chosen value to a chosen address
03:43:18 <ais523> Sgeo: that happens all the time, e.g. Firefox disabled some CSS features for a while for security reasons
03:43:27 <kmc> or you can just clobber other app data on the heap as desired
03:43:39 <Bike> that sounds pretty cool kmc
03:44:03 <Sgeo> :visited, or does CSS have more security issues than that?
03:44:50 <kmc> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8 is a really sophisticated heap attack that I never understood in full
03:45:00 <Bike> we should just scrap the web and use project xanadu
03:48:18 <Bike> this splitter thing seems like it should be somewhere that isn't sudo.
03:51:25 <Bike> huh, 8 byte alignment...
03:52:26 <Bike> "Luckily for the attacker who smashes the heap in order to execute arbitrary code, the GNU C Library does not activate these error detection mechanisms" sweet
03:55:44 <Bike> "It may be possible, although hard to do reliably in a real-world attack, for a malicious web site to execute arbitrary machine code in the context of the web browser" some good links here kmc
03:56:01 <shachaf> kmc: Where did he say that?
04:02:55 <kmc> who say what
04:11:27 <coppro> apparently I have moderator powers on stackoverflow now
04:11:33 <coppro> I haven't done anything on that site in like 2 years
04:11:44 <Bike> ban everything
04:12:45 <kmc> ban all non-PHP questions
04:16:26 <kmc> oh, on zephyr
04:19:07 <Bike> why does C have calloc for zeroed arrays but nothing special for uninitialized arrays? like, the way calloc takes a unit and all.
04:20:46 <Jafet> Why do people expect any kind of internal consistency from C
04:21:29 <shachaf> kmc: As far as I understand the state of the art in MD5 collisions isn't good enough to exploit that. :-(
04:21:32 <Sgeo> Is it at least more consistent than the web 'standards'?
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04:21:53 <Bike> because it's a widely used language that bla bla god forbid i ask a historical question without being greeted by a chorus of "it just sucks"
04:22:36 <shachaf> This is a bizarre misprint.
04:23:05 <shachaf> The first half of this page is taken from the first half of a page a dozen pages later.
04:23:29 <mnoqy> tjat sounds like a misprint alright
04:23:29 <shachaf> Up to the new chapter heading.
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04:23:56 <shachaf> But the page number isn't.
04:24:31 <shachaf> should i sue the publisher
04:24:40 <Bike> Who's the publisher?
04:25:48 <Bike> they publish books?
04:26:50 <shachaf> By book I meant laptop catalog.
04:26:55 <shachaf> ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Publishing )
04:27:20 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_Catalogue
04:27:39 <Bike> The American Gun Mystery
04:28:35 <shachaf> Each edition of the catalogue takes about 10 months to develop from concept to final product.[3]
04:28:47 <shachaf> Is the concept, uh, different every year?
04:29:05 <Jafet> Is a baby really different to another baby?
04:52:56 <kmc> i love that this old sudo exploit comes from utterly mundane string manipulation in logging
04:53:05 <kmc> and the more recent one that was some obscure debug code
04:53:28 <Bike> am i naïve to think that that sort of thing shouldn't be part of the sudo code anyway
04:53:50 <kmc> that's the thing, even if you have some good reason to write your app in C, it probably only applies to 5% of the code and not to the 95% of boring error handling, argument processing, etc.
04:54:04 <Bike> like shouldn't that be in a library or something
04:54:21 <kmc> even in a kernel, most of the code (by SLoC) is not doing anything particularly performance sensitive or low-level
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04:57:35 <Bike> are you implying we might be well-served by writing applications out of multiple interacting modules, the implementation considerations of which don't impinge on each other's implementation considerations without good reason
04:57:39 <Bike> or is that just me
04:58:36 <Jafet> We're all just doomed
04:58:51 <Bike> or we're all just doomed.
04:58:53 <kmc> some combination of using multiple languages, and using languages that are safe by default but have these low-level capabilities
04:59:17 <Jafet> Now of course, those languages are implemented
04:59:21 <kmc> Haskell is a good example of a language that's safe by default, and suitable for systems programming (maybe not kernels so much, but like, high-preformance network servers)
04:59:36 <kmc> this is part of why I get annoyed that everyone wanks about Haskell being sooooo mathematical and pure and not about the cool real world stuff it can do
04:59:47 <kmc> Jafet: sure, but you end up with a smaller trusted base
04:59:54 <Bike> imo fuck mathematical purity (hiiii elliottttt)
05:00:25 <Bike> That's a lot smaller than a linux system full of programs, is the point
05:00:33 <kmc> the GHC RTS is 50,000 lines of C and assembly code
05:00:35 <kmc> it's scary
05:00:36 <Bike> also is that the whole thing or just the C part
05:00:49 <kmc> but not as scary as every app being written separately in C
05:01:12 <kmc> also, we hope that kernel and programming language development can attract a higher caliber of programmers than applications development
05:01:18 <Jafet> The trusted base also contains the code generator, bytestring, and if lens is still using unsafePerformIO somewhere
05:01:31 <kmc> and we can justify expending more effort per line of code, because those core projects are used widely
05:01:44 <Jafet> That's already true though
05:01:48 <kmc> i mean, this battle is largely won, most software is written in Ruby and JavaScript now
05:01:53 <kmc> could be better but could be worse
05:02:10 <kmc> unfortunately the web has its own awful security problems
05:02:25 <Jafet> The most amusing javascript attack is the heap fengshui thing
05:02:40 <Bike> the most amusing web security thing is billion laughs.
05:02:58 <Jafet> Where they load a javascript program to attack the javascript vm
05:03:39 <kmc> is that the jit spraying attack technique or another
05:04:53 <Jafet> Well, it gives you a known heap layout
05:05:01 <Jafet> Then you can setup the actual attack
05:05:43 <kmc> do you know about JIT spraying? http://www.semantiscope.com/research/BHDC2010/BHDC-2010-Paper.pdf
05:07:21 <kmc> you write JS that the JIT will compile into some innocuous instructions, then you use whatever vuln to make the browser jump into the middle of an instruction and, surprise, all those numerical constants actually contain shellcode
05:08:35 <kmc> that paper also talks about inferring addresses of heap objects from their sort order in associative data structures
05:08:39 <Jafet> Didn't Appel do that with java and a tanning lamp
05:09:11 <kmc> that was another fun paper
05:09:24 <Jafet> Well, they didn't jump into the middle of instructions
05:10:23 <Bike> kmc: do you know if there's been any work on secure mallocs or does just nobody care
05:10:39 <Jafet> What is a secure malloc
05:11:01 <Bike> a malloc not making sudo vulnerable to weird crap like this phrack paper.
05:11:12 <shachaf> allocates mlocked memory so that keys and passwords won't be swapped to disk hth
05:11:23 <kmc> i'm sure there has been some
05:11:34 <kmc> putting canary values at the beginning/end of blocks, checking them on free
05:11:35 <Bike> In this case because parts of dlmalloc's bookkeeping is stored right with the data, in the heap.
05:12:17 <Jafet> malloc doesn't have vulnerabilities, or at least I've not heard of one
05:12:21 <kmc> also stuff like https://code.google.com/p/address-sanitizer/ basically gives you a safe allocator that tracks which memory you are and aren't allowed to touch
05:12:34 <Jafet> But it's just another firearm in the handy C arsenal
05:12:45 <kmc> that's in GCC 4.8 btw
05:12:55 <Bike> it's not a vulnerability in malloc, per se, but the design makes the explot possible
05:12:58 <Bike> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=8
05:13:17 <Bike> at least, without compiled-in options that libc elides, i guess
05:14:21 <Jafet> If someone can access whatever bit of memory that they want, then no implementation of malloc is going to stop them
05:14:44 <Jafet> You can write a malloc that makes it a bit harder, but that doesn't solve anything
05:14:49 <Bike> but they can't, they can only access some particular bytes just after the memory.
05:15:32 <kmc> Jafet: there totally is value in making exploits harder to write, less reliable, more likely to be noticed
05:15:43 <kmc> that's why we have stack canaries, ASLR, NX pages, etc
05:15:49 <kmc> none of these things is foolproof
05:15:51 <Jafet> Yes, it's all a pointless arms race
05:15:51 <kmc> no security is
05:15:55 <Bike> and now i'm thinking of the gun control debate.
05:16:02 <kmc> i think it's not pointless
05:16:15 <kmc> it is legitimately a lot harder to write an exploit today than 10 years ago
05:16:17 <Jafet> I think it distracts people from trying to do things correctly
05:16:40 <Jafet> Computers are purely symbolic systems, barring hardware failures you can make exploits impossible
05:16:41 <kmc> yeah i'm sure that spender will see the light and start working on the GHC typechecker
05:16:54 <Bike> Has anyone ever actually used a correct system
05:16:56 <Jafet> And I don't think it's inherently difficult
05:17:06 <kmc> Jafet: uh, surely you mean 'exploits' only in a narrow sense of memory corruption or something
05:17:10 <kmc> not all security problems
05:17:18 <Bike> I mean people even talk in here about failures of checked haskell or whatever it's called all the time.
05:17:32 <Bike> But it would be ridiculous to then say that it's a pointless effort.
05:18:04 <Bike> Also, "bloze" should be a word. Like, past tense of "blaze".
05:18:13 <Jafet> Most security problems seem to be in the area of we tried to abstract this away but we failed
05:18:19 <kmc> this channel bloze goats
05:18:24 <Jafet> Memory is one example
05:18:43 <Bike> We tried to abstract away logging but we ended up breaking sudo :( :( :(
05:18:47 <kmc> C does not particularly try to abstract memory away
05:18:56 <kmc> also I think your statement is too general to be useful
05:19:15 <Jafet> Thus the C programmer gets to do it every day
05:19:21 <kmc> yes, programs are made of abstractions
05:19:32 <kmc> so most program failures can be seen as a failure of abstraction at some level
05:19:41 <Bike> You know what would make this conversation clearer? Some Hegel.
05:19:47 <Bike> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/se/abstract.htm
05:20:30 <kmc> Jafet: if you're arguing that people shouldn't use C as much as they do, then of course I agree (I said so above), but I think it's still worthwhile protecting whatever code is still written in C (for whatever good or bad reason)
05:20:37 <kmc> including language runtimes for that matter
05:20:58 <kmc> i generally believe in harm reduction, rather than in making things extra harmful out of a mistaken belief that people will not do them
05:21:03 <kmc> i also believe in defense in depth
05:22:15 <kmc> apps have bugs, runtimes have bugs, type checkers have bugs, kernels have bugs, hypervisors have bugs, hardware has bugs
05:22:52 <kmc> interestingly I'm not aware of a hardware bug in a major CPU that had consequences worse than denial of service
05:22:57 <kmc> anyone have examples?
05:23:10 <Jafet> "Plugging" the known risks generally means making the software more complicated
05:23:15 <Bike> Um, fdiv messed up a few scientific calculations, briefly?
05:23:34 <kmc> hard to define which things are security problems
05:23:50 <kmc> i guess this is part of why Linus totally ignores the distinction
05:23:56 <Jafet> Wasn't there a bug in x86 hypervisor instructions
05:23:57 <kmc> but it's not healthy in practice
05:24:00 <Bike> hm, security problems... maybe a bad RNG?
05:25:00 <Bike> I'm thinking of, like, WWII crypto here >_>
05:25:14 <kmc> there was the SWAPGS non-canonical address issue that led to privesc in several OSes
05:25:22 <kmc> that was a disagreement between Intel and AMD on the fine points of the instruction
05:25:25 <kmc> but documented, I believe
05:27:48 <Bike> dos is like, the most popular payload of most attacks, possibly because it's so easy. it's hard to think of other things
05:29:34 <kmc> i'm not sure what scope you're talking about
05:29:50 <Jafet> Well, if you count crowding out a webbrowser with toolbars as dos
05:30:06 <Bike> Most of what I know about security, which isn't much of course, is gleaned from reading about shitty old viruses, which usually just posted some stupid message and borked your computer.
05:31:46 <kmc> yeah, much like the internet as a whole, the hobbyists and tinkerers got there before the businesspeople
05:32:15 <kmc> these days compromised windows machines are a tradeable commodity
05:32:37 <Bike> But I mean, dos is pretty easy compared to stealing passwords or w/e generally, isn't it? Just do some LOIC.
05:33:12 <kmc> startup idea: high frequency arbitrage on markets for compromised windows machines
05:33:19 <kmc> exit plan: get murdered by russian gangsters
05:33:33 <Jafet> Using compromised windows machines to do high frequency arbitrage?
05:33:46 <kmc> I mean buying and selling them
05:33:51 <Bike> No, using machines as the commodity.
05:33:58 <kmc> ditto for credit card numbers, CAPTCHA solving services, etc.
05:34:02 <kmc> spam sending credits
05:34:07 <kmc> all of this is traded online in huge volume now
05:34:21 <Jafet> Well, these things tend to depreciate after each sale
05:34:24 <Bike> Too bad the black market is so hard to observe, I bet it's really interesting economically.
05:34:38 <kmc> spam wouldn't be economical if you actually had to pay for the servers and bandwidth
05:34:44 <kmc> i mean at legit rates
05:35:16 <kmc> Bike: i think it's not so hard to observe... I know there was at least one paper about the CAPTCHA breaking market
05:36:07 <Bike> Well you don't have government agencies releasing stats on 'em.
05:36:09 <kmc> they don't need to be super hidden because they operate in countries with corrupt or ineffective governments who don't cooperate with the governments of the people they're attacking
05:36:29 <Jafet> What is CAPTCHA breaking exactly
05:36:39 <kmc> well do you know what a CAPTCHA is
05:36:49 <Jafet> I gather it's more sophisticated than the old trick of redirecting them to a porn site
05:36:50 <kmc> you can pay people to solve them for you
05:37:00 <Bike> It doesn't have to be more sophisticated than that.
05:37:12 <kmc> poor people at internet cafes in the third world
05:37:12 <Bike> It could just mean selling the solved captchas generated by the porn.
05:37:16 <kmc> \rainbow{GLOBALIZATION}
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05:37:39 <Jafet> At least it's a white collar job
05:38:57 <kmc> not in most senses
05:39:35 <kmc> it's pretty trippy that you can make an API call in your program that results in sending an image to some kid in bangladesh who looks at it, types in some letters in a foreign script, and then your API call returns
05:40:51 * kmc has done some Mechanical Turk tasks
05:41:09 <kmc> Amazon is pretty good at keeping the sketchiest stuff off of MTurk I think
05:41:29 <Bike> I should probably do some turk stuff sometime. It'd probably beat yardwork.
05:41:49 <shachaf> THE JOKE IS MECHANICAL TURK HTH
05:41:50 <Bike> That seems like a really weird etymological reference, shachaf.
05:42:10 <shachaf> Bike: Have you considered that perhaps you are a really weird etymological reference?
05:42:26 <shachaf> hlep im trunign into e lliott
05:42:28 <kmc> chess: the only winning move is not to play
05:42:36 <Bike> Well, actually yes, my nick's etymology is a bit weird.
05:43:00 <shachaf> kmc: Well, that and putting the other player in checkmate. hth
05:43:14 <shachaf> the joke is that you have a billion nicks
05:43:40 <shachaf> Fiora was fiora for a while today.
05:43:48 <kmc> i did a lot of clicking on road signs
05:43:53 <shachaf> Sadly the capital letter is back.
05:45:40 <Bike> did you like... /whois her repeatedly...
05:46:37 <Bike> Well I mean, she hasn't been here.
05:46:37 <shachaf> We have two channels in common!
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06:26:04 <Bike> `welcome dick licking
06:26:08 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:26:08 <HackEgo> dick: licking: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:27:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
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08:14:53 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy the only algebraic structure to orbit a planet
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09:12:10 <nortti> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer
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11:21:07 <JesseH> Alright, I have a conditional statement. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang | Check "it" in Language Overview.
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12:55:20 <JesseH> Anyone have any good suggestions for esoteric languages to learn?
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13:09:22 <nooodl> JesseH: hey, how does 'ou' work? does it append a newline when printing something?
13:09:22 <lambdabot> nooodl: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:10:26 <nooodl> st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:
13:10:40 <nooodl> or must 'co' always declare a new string?
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13:13:27 <nooodl> also, what happens when you 'goto' in-between statements? maybe "parts of the program" should be split like this:
13:13:33 <nooodl> [['st', 'foo', '30'], ['ou', 'What is your name?'], ['ip', 'name'], ['fo', '5', 'ou', 'name']]
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13:20:26 <JesseH> nooodl, it will ignore and go on to the next statement
13:20:33 <JesseH> nooodl, ou:x will output whatever x is
13:20:44 <JesseH> if x isn't a declared variable it will output "x"
13:20:56 <JesseH> nooodl, I think "st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:" is legal
13:21:01 <nooodl> with a newline char after it?
13:21:03 <JesseH> You can test with the interpreter if youde like
13:21:11 <JesseH> nooodl, and yes new line
13:21:17 <nooodl> pff i don't have lua :(
13:21:35 <JesseH> Just go install lua5.1 XD
13:22:31 <JesseH> Once I get the socket library added, we can have some real fun XD
13:24:42 <JesseH> nooodl, st:foo:Hello, world!:co:foo:foo:foo:ou:foo: didn't work D:
13:24:51 <JesseH> But in theory it's supposed to so it's an implementation error
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13:26:17 <nooodl> should "gt:x:" work, if x is a number variable?
13:26:51 <JesseH> and it should work if x is declared
13:27:16 <nooodl> oof. that makes compiling this language a lot harder
13:28:49 <nooodl> actually the way gt works already makes it kinda weird! take a look at this example:
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13:29:37 <JesseH> That will give you a lua error
13:30:02 <JesseH> You are basically giving gt the value of 6
13:30:08 <JesseH> which is not what you're supposed to do XD
13:30:21 <JesseH> Trying to break my codez are we? ;D
13:31:01 <nooodl> oh commands and vars are in the same dict
13:32:14 <JesseH> st:foo:hi:st:coo:bye:co:z:foo:coo:ou:z:
13:32:51 <JesseH> That's not supposed to happen
13:33:16 <nooodl> how should i run a derplang program using your lua interpreter
13:33:37 <nooodl> oh, wait, it's in the readme
13:33:38 <JesseH> lua derplang.lua filename.derp
13:38:09 <nooodl> wow this is kinda crazy
13:39:11 <nooodl> nu:gt:6: acts as both a nu and a gt command
13:39:42 <boily> mc:do:na:ld:sc:hi:ck:en:nu:gt:
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13:48:26 <oerjan> <JesseH> Will the Contents thingy show up automatically? <-- there's a minimum number of sections before it shows up, i think, and there's also some user viewing preference.
13:49:29 <JesseH> nooodl, :-) there is lots of magic to my language you don't know
13:49:35 <oerjan> <JesseH> Someone needs to create a language, that is used for creating other languages. <-- haskell hth
13:49:37 <JesseH> Thanks to lua's derpness
13:50:07 <oerjan> (getting two #esoteric memes in a two-word response, new record?)
13:51:17 <oerjan> JesseH: also emmental on the wiki might count, in a different way.
13:51:30 <JesseH> I'm confused on a lot of wiki stuff
13:51:34 <JesseH> So I don't understand what you mean
13:51:47 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental
13:52:01 <oerjan> recently featured language.
13:52:05 <JesseH> boily, give descriptions of each one of those commands and ill put em in ;)
13:53:13 <JesseH> I am what you call...a genital morpher
13:53:41 <JesseH> mighty morphing genitalssss
13:53:49 <boily> MaCro, DO loop, NAnd, LoaD, SCatter (like in MPI), HIgh (tri-state logic), Calvin Klein, ENable, and I think nu and gt are already defined.
13:54:07 <HackEgo> 685) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
13:57:53 <nooodl> i think derplang is turing complete atm
13:58:28 <elliott> 18:43:20: <oerjan> <-- i suspect the computers made for people that don't want to care about computers are eerily unconcerned with making programming easy hth
13:58:29 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine probably!
13:58:31 <JesseH> fixing a couple bugs in implementation
13:58:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> mnoqy: How do you talk about rank-n types etc. in Haskell "categorically"? hth <-- i suggest asking at the n-category café hth
13:58:47 <nooodl> two registers, addition, subtraction, if/then, goto
13:59:04 <oerjan> elliott: universe is a bitch
13:59:13 <nooodl> minsky machines feel like cheating
13:59:25 <nooodl> how the fuck are they ever TC
13:59:56 <elliott> nooodl: are monoids cheating :-)
14:00:33 <oerjan> nooodl: because you can encode a stack of bits as an integer using something called "binary" hth
14:00:45 <nooodl> anyway what's up with people making a brainfuck implementation in their lang to prove it's TC
14:01:03 <oerjan> nooodl: well sometimes that actually _is_ a good fit.
14:01:53 <JesseH> My little derplang is all grown up
14:02:56 <nooodl> i added this to the wiki article
14:03:05 <nooodl> Any Minsky machine can be translated into a derplang program using nu, ad, su, gt and it. Therefore, derplang is Turing complete.
14:03:06 <boily> JesseH: next step is to write a bf interpreter in it, and a quine, and 99 bottles of beer.
14:03:14 <nooodl> is that enough of a proof or am i cheating too hard
14:03:28 <nooodl> i mean the translation is super obvious... it'd be silly to write it there
14:05:09 <oerjan> nooodl: try fractran, it's like a minsky machine down to the bone
14:05:11 <JesseH> boily, And put them in the examples? :P
14:06:22 <elliott> perhaps I could pay oerjan to write down my programs instead
14:06:43 <oerjan> elliott: sounds implausible
14:06:52 <boily> JesseH: that's proper etiquette.
14:07:36 <nooodl> t_length = t_length - 1 -- Must do
14:08:04 <oerjan> decrementum necesse est
14:08:29 <nooodl> ceterum censeo t_length decremendum esse
14:09:28 <boily> «C'passque t'as comme pas le choix d'enlever 1 à c't'affaire là, genre»
14:10:47 <boily> from noble Latin to degenerate populare Québec French, you can comment in any style you like!
14:11:08 <JesseH> "create a language that is somewhat confusing and hard to remembe"
14:11:25 <JesseH> If I make the interpreter well documented, that allows people to more easily understand the language
14:13:09 <oerjan> my experience is that documenting esolangs better only marginally improves people's understanding of them.
14:14:02 <JesseH> nooodl, ! I fixed the co issue !
14:14:14 <nooodl> what was the issue, actually
14:14:22 <JesseH> st:foo:hi:st:coo:bye:co:z:foo:coo:ou:z:
14:14:28 <JesseH> That wouldn't work, but now it does :-)
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14:15:20 <nooodl> elseif t[i] == "fo" then
14:15:20 <nooodl> fo(t[i+1], t[i+2], t[i+3], t[i+4], t[i+5])
14:15:40 <JesseH> i think I was messing with that
14:15:57 <nooodl> they're just ignored though
14:16:40 <JesseH> right ill need to send more arguments actually
14:16:41 <nooodl> this just prints A B for me :(
14:16:53 <JesseH> that way you can do more commands then just the single argument ones
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14:18:49 <nooodl_> JesseH: anyway, is fo broken?
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14:20:10 <nooodl_> looks like it's just ignoring the first command or something?! did i break it
14:20:42 <JesseH> no man let me fix and ill push the fix
14:21:17 <FireFly> <oerjan> decrementum necesse est ← working on porting the derplang interpreter to Lingua::Romana::Perligata?
14:21:25 <JesseH> its pushed... nooodl_ enjoy
14:22:26 <nooodl_> man. i don't know what's going on butr
14:22:32 <nooodl_> *but, right now, ou:a:ou:b: prints 'b' for me
14:22:42 <oerjan> FireFly: i cannot say i am working, no.
14:22:57 <JesseH> nooodl_, if they arnt defined it will print the literal string
14:26:43 <JesseH> nooodl_, give me your codez
14:27:57 <nooodl_> the text file had a UTF-8 header thingy in it
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14:28:30 <nooodl_> causing it to read "\xef\xbb\xbfou" instead of "ou"
14:28:48 <elliott> nooodl_: utf-8 boms "aren't a thing"
14:28:55 <elliott> only windows does that imo stop using windows
14:29:08 <myname> i forgot the name of that brainfuck programming game
14:29:45 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_EXTREME: 0.0
14:30:06 <myname> any attempts on games for other languages?
14:30:17 <nooodl_> !bfjoust STRATEGY [-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>
14:30:20 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl__STRATEGY: 12.0
14:30:59 <oerjan> !bfjoust rle ([-]>)*-1
14:31:01 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_rle: 11.4
14:31:22 <FireFly> Clearly STRATEGY is superior
14:31:50 <FireFly> Maybe account for the width of the playing field
14:32:12 <FireFly> er, never mind, that shouldn't matter
14:32:23 <nooodl_> !bfjoust STRATEGY (>)*9([-]>)*-1
14:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl__STRATEGY: 14.6
14:33:09 <oerjan> did Gregor add an extra underscore?
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14:35:42 <oerjan> <JesseH> What would be the point designing a language without implementing? <-- to make one that is hard (or impossible) to implement hth
14:35:56 <oerjan> in other words, you need to implement Eodermdrome hth
14:36:15 <myname> weren't there a language which needed time traveling?
14:36:20 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
14:36:55 <oerjan> myname: twoducks (which exists, but is unimplementable) and feather (which is implementable, but doesn't yet exist)
14:37:04 <JesseH> nooodl, you like my language? You seem interested :P
14:37:12 <nooodl> i like how broken it is really
14:37:27 <JesseH> nooodl, xD I'm just gonna take that as a complement
14:38:47 * oerjan is suddenly getting an urge to nominate feather as featured language
14:39:28 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure about that, FireFly
14:39:50 <elliott> oerjan: i'll feature it last month.
14:40:31 <oerjan> elliott: ...that would have been appropriate, if it were possible.
14:40:48 <elliott> oerjan: IT WAS A FEATHER JOKE HTH
14:44:01 <JesseH> nooodl, So what now would you say, feature wise?
14:44:09 <nooodl> oh god. ou:hi:fo:2:dofile:derplang.lua:
14:45:05 <JesseH> don't break my interpreter >_>
14:45:20 <nooodl> imo: some kinda data structure that's more useful than just variables
14:45:24 <JesseH> Yes you can execute lua functions from within the derp script itself
14:45:27 <nooodl> arrays, or stacks, anything
14:45:40 <nooodl> that way you'll be able to implement brainfuck! kinda! maybe
14:45:57 <JesseH> unsure on what that is
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15:24:44 <Taneb> I'm on the computer afflicted with the graphics problems
15:30:21 <Taneb> Although I do not know whether it is suffering from that particular malady
15:30:34 <Taneb> For it is afflicted by a far greater curse
15:33:50 <Taneb> A curse that reeks of familiarity
15:35:37 <Taneb> A curse I may have found a solution to
15:35:49 <Taneb> Anyone know how to bookmark things in links2?
15:36:20 <Taneb> Nevermind, I've worked it out
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15:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> is taneb's computer torturing him in an entertaining way again
16:02:24 <oerjan> <kmc> spam wouldn't be economical if you actually had to pay for the servers and bandwidth <-- wait does this mean you could theoretically get rid of the spam problem by buying compromised machine capacity for actually useful purposes, at slightly higher prices than the spammers can afford?
16:03:31 <elliott> the bbc bought a botnet once
16:03:49 <elliott> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/7932816.stm
16:04:13 <oerjan> elliott: yes, but you would have to do enough of it to drive up the prices globally
16:05:39 <oerjan> too high for the spammers to afford, yet too low for the sellers to be able to use the profit to correspondingly increase the supply
16:06:31 <oerjan> i guess the downside is that it would still increase the profit of criminals.
16:07:14 <oerjan> elliott: well i assume the compromisable computer supply is not unlimited.
16:08:42 <oerjan> so at some point to increase the supply, the sellers would have to pay for servers and bandwidth.
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16:12:38 <oerjan> <kmc> it's pretty trippy that you can make an API call in your program that results in sending an image to some kid in bangladesh who looks at it, types in some letters in a foreign script, and then your API call returns
16:13:36 <oerjan> <-- did we discuss making captchas containing propaganda messages to those guys yet? pretty sure we did.
16:18:32 <myname> like "how to use tor"?
16:20:23 <oerjan> somehow i was thinking of actual work advice.
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16:36:02 <Taneb> CHINESE GRAPHICS CARD PROBLEM RESOLVED
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16:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit, the chinese graphics card problem got resolved?
16:37:21 <Taneb> Then I solved it again
16:37:39 <Taneb> Year and a bit, I think
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16:40:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "#esoteric", "is", and "on" | Chinese graphics card problem resolved! (Again!) | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:41:11 <myname> you deserve some kind of a price
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16:41:53 <elliott> Taneb: was it really a year
16:42:03 <Taneb> elliott, I don't think so
16:42:22 <elliott> it felt like a month maybe
16:44:54 <Taneb> elliott, the first problem arose on or shortly before the 16th of January this year
16:45:00 -!- boily has joined.
16:45:01 <Taneb> So, maybe 4 months
16:46:10 <Taneb> Yeah, just under 4 months
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17:09:58 <kmc> what was the problem Taneb
17:10:15 <Taneb> kmc, a series of graphics card driver issues
17:10:49 <Taneb> Originally because I had a bootleg graphics card from a dodgy website which only came with Chinese-language instructions
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17:17:20 <AnotherTest> I just saw someone do if(file.is_open() && file.good() && !file.fail() && !file.bad()) with a std::ifstream :(
17:18:30 <Gregor> You could remove everything from "someone" to "with" and it'd be equally sad.
17:20:07 <Gregor> *eh*, I don't have my silly-language-debate shoes on.
17:21:44 <AnotherTest> Gregor: Well, let's assume this guy has to (worse?: wants to) use C++ here. Would you rather use printf in C++?
17:24:15 <boily> crap recycling is good for plants.
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18:06:29 <nooodl> man what's a non-awful place to learn C++
18:07:17 <nooodl> preferably one in which the first line of code isn't "using namespace std;"
18:07:58 -!- BillyZane has joined.
18:08:12 <AnotherTest> then read "effective C++" for the template stuffs
18:08:32 <nooodl> i'm mostly interested in the template stuffs; maybe i should start there and see if it makes sense to me
18:09:13 <nooodl> (i mean other than templates it's really just "C with OOP" isn't it)
18:11:23 <AnotherTest> Well it's this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_C++_Design
18:12:53 <nooodl> doesn't seem to be online
18:12:56 <kmc> the C++ FAQ Lite is pretty good
18:13:02 <AnotherTest> nooodl: I've got a japanese version if you want
18:14:06 <AnotherTest> It's online http://sfzx.yangtzeu.edu.cn/downloadfile/20121116085836841.pdf
18:15:46 <AnotherTest> (note: I am not sure whether this is legal or not, probably not)
18:18:12 <AnotherTest> well google shouldn't provide me with such data!
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18:33:20 <boily> cicadas are the beef of insects: they're huge and don't really move most of the time.
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18:36:45 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: are these cicadas in the real world
18:42:00 <NihilistDandy> The 17 year cicadas just started emerging recently in the warmer parts of the US
18:43:02 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, I'm pretty excited. It's like seeing a comet except I might be able to experience it with hypothetical future children
18:43:03 <oerjan> are the west coast ones out of phase with the east coast ones?
18:43:51 <Taneb> I cannot find my headphones
18:43:53 <Gregor> I don't think there are any west coast ones, but there are broods out of sync with each other even across the eastern half of the country. This just one of the bigger ones.
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18:43:57 <NihilistDandy> I don't actually know if they live out on the west coast
18:43:59 <Taneb> Nor can I find my bank card
18:44:02 <Taneb> Should I be worried?
18:44:08 <NihilistDandy> Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magicicada
18:45:09 <oerjan> Taneb: the imps took them as payment for fixing the CGCP hth
18:47:39 <oerjan> "Many of these hypothetical 30 broods, however, have not been observed. Furthermore, two of the brood numbers assigned by Marlatt (Broods XI and XXI) existed at one time, but have become extinct."
18:48:00 <Gregor> NihilistDandy: I had never heard of cicadas before moving to Indiana. I think they simply don't exist in the west, periodic or otherwise.
18:49:15 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, that sounds right. I can't remember ever hearing about them out west, but I know all about them from my southern relatives and occasional encounters at home (though where I am in New England doesn't seem to get them muc)
18:49:37 <oerjan> this year appears to be listed as Brood II
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18:50:08 <oerjan> so presumably the largest there
18:50:30 <NihilistDandy> I was only a kid the last time it happened, but I remember it being a pretty big thing :D
18:51:26 <Vorpal> First thunderstorm of the year. Heh
18:51:29 <Vorpal> Also I'm lagging hard from joining a lot of channels :/
18:54:37 <oerjan> "Theoretically, the Cicada, collected at the proper time and suitably dressed and served, should be a rather attractive food. The larvae have lived solely on vegetable matter of the cleanest and most whole-some sort, and supposedly, therefore, would be much more palatable and suitable for food than the oyster, with its scavenger habit of living in the muddy ooze of river bottoms, or many other animals which are highly prized and whi
18:54:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:55:06 <oerjan> which have not half so clean a reco."
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18:55:35 <Gregor> Plus, you only get a chance to eat them once every 17 years, which makes them a snob's delight.
18:56:10 <Gregor> You could collect a bunch, freeze dry them and sell them as snacks for 17 years.
18:56:24 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:56:34 <oerjan> gregor the mercantile genius
18:56:55 <Gregor> As long as nobody else thinks of it, you would have zero competition for 17 years!
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18:57:34 <Bike> 0/0 = infinite demand
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18:58:16 <Gregor> Bike: I'm like 85% convinced that that's how economics works.
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19:01:42 <nooodl> i was trying to switch clients to hexchat because i heard it was good
19:02:01 <nooodl> guess it fucking sucks! i uninstalled it
19:02:04 <kmc> is hexchat made in hexham
19:02:08 <kmc> is that why its good
19:03:30 <boily> weechat is better!
19:05:19 <NihilistDandy> I dunno, I didn't much like weechat. It was okay, but I wasn't blown away by it. I'm willing to be convinced, though
19:06:23 <elliott> "Experiment: There may be confidential content in your search results. Please do not share outside Google."
19:06:32 <elliott> i just got this when searching on youtube
19:06:46 <Bike> so, what's the confidential content
19:07:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:07:01 <Bike> that's pretty confidential.
19:07:03 <elliott> the results just look normal
19:07:06 <JesseH> http://hastebin.com/xokalomamo.pas
19:07:22 <JesseH> http://hastebin.com/rasoqunune.derp
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19:07:47 <elliott> it's showing on every search
19:07:51 <Taneb> Help I'm trying to part mcmap to Haskell again
19:08:16 <Bike> elliott: is it possible you're a manchurian candidate
19:08:21 <elliott> Taneb: do you get a warning
19:08:23 <elliott> if you search for shit on youtube
19:08:38 <Bike> oh hey, i get the warning.
19:09:20 <elliott> what the fuck would confidental content even be
19:09:34 <Bike> a/b testing really grates sometimes
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19:18:59 <elliott> it doesn't make any sense.
19:19:04 <elliott> what confidental information would go in youtube search results.
19:19:11 <elliott> why would they say "please do not share outside google"
19:19:30 <Bike> well, i've seen a few videos that would probably get me in trouble in some governments, but
19:20:13 <Bike> clips of wars and stuff
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19:21:33 <elliott> Bike: i can't tell if you're being serious or not
19:21:40 <elliott> that seems like a weird thing to refer to as "confidential content"
19:21:47 <Bike> "not that serious"
19:22:18 <Taneb> Maybe it's personalized or something
19:23:01 <elliott> right but... what would *that* mean
19:23:08 <elliott> google have confidential videos of you??
19:23:20 <AnotherTest> I doubt it as youtube doesn't know who I am
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19:23:23 <Bike> i know (of) a guy who got an NYT article and a croatian government response from information he gleaned from youtube videos
19:23:35 <AnotherTest> (tor + no javascript + no cookies = no identity ?)
19:24:22 <Bike> who the hell uses java online
19:24:49 <elliott> Bike: okay but... do not share outside of google??
19:24:52 <elliott> what does it even mean to share inside google
19:24:55 <elliott> like i am not a google employee
19:25:10 <elliott> presumably they don't mean like... only share this confidental info(??) on google+
19:25:40 <elliott> i don't see the relevance but okay
19:25:54 <Bike> oh i figured they meant like, just don't talk about these search results
19:26:21 <NihilistDandy> AnotherTest: DDG all the way. Have my default search set to DDG-HTML-NoJS
19:26:23 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm ddg'ing what it's supposed to mean
19:26:33 <oklopol> the finnish translation says "try:" instead of "experiment:"
19:26:37 <elliott> Bike: well that would make some kind of sense as part of like an A/B trial
19:26:42 <AnotherTest> NihilistDandy: Same here, + HTTPS of course
19:26:49 <elliott> Bike: but (a) do they actually say that? wouldn't that have the opposite of the desired effect??
19:26:52 <oklopol> or, well, experiment as a verb
19:27:06 <elliott> (b) when you talk about confidential stuff it sounds like there's a Reason not to share outside google???? ok i just can't get past how
19:27:10 <elliott> not a word of it makes any sense to me
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19:28:22 <NihilistDandy> I sincerely cannot figure out what it's supposed to mean
19:28:39 <NihilistDandy> Nor do I know why I am a part of this strange experiment but no tech bloggers are
19:28:40 <oklopol> (perhaps it's just a translation error)
19:29:11 <elliott> NihilistDandy: well i haven't seen this message before, like, today
19:29:20 <elliott> perhaps it's just too new to have any coverage yet
19:29:40 <elliott> i mean testing random new stuff on an unsuspecting portion of users is common
19:29:53 <elliott> also given that 100% of us have seen it it might be something everyone is getting?
19:29:56 <AnotherTest> I've spoken to some other people that get the same message
19:30:04 <olsner> maybe it's an attempt at making more users share youtube videos? by claiming they might be secrets?
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19:30:21 <AnotherTest> Although some other don't get it apparently
19:30:23 <kmc> hehe elliott sounds like they think your account is an internal google account
19:30:25 <NihilistDandy> Ooh, all my sikrit let's plays and Haskell videos, y'all
19:30:31 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:30:39 <elliott> kmc: right *that* was the only way "outside of google" could have made sense to me
19:30:48 <Bike> kmc: i got it and a guy in a totally different area got it, so this is quite the fuckup
19:30:59 <elliott> kmc: could they really fuck up that badly and leave it up for more than like
19:31:04 <elliott> i mean surely they know it's happening
19:31:08 <elliott> surely someone at google actually uses youtube
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19:31:09 <oklopol> also get it through random proxies
19:31:13 <lambdabot> AnotherTest asked 1d 5h 41m 40s ago: I was reading some of the emulator code, and I wondered why the dcpu isn't inheriting from device itself?
19:31:14 <elliott> i guess they're accustomed to seeing it
19:31:25 <elliott> ok wait what should i google to try and find secret internal videos
19:31:42 <elliott> oh wait they wouldn't be used to it? because "experiment"
19:31:47 <Bike> 'domination plan 2013'
19:31:51 <elliott> i'm going to go insane thinking about this
19:32:25 <Bike> how crazy can we drive one elliott
19:32:29 <oklopol> but seriously, do you see how that "experiment" could be a verb
19:32:30 <NihilistDandy> GUYS MY YOUTUBE GOT HACKED ALL MY VIDEO RESULTS ARE ZEITGEIST
19:32:47 <oklopol> like, try our new "find the confidential information video" game?
19:32:50 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: The device abstract class is meant for a device that can be attached to the DCPU. A DCPU can't really be attached to a DCPU because of reasons
19:33:19 <NihilistDandy> ThatOtherPerson: "Because of reasons" is my favorite explanation for anything. I used it on my boss, once
19:33:22 * boily scans elliott with a crackpot-entiometer... *beep*... *beep*... *beep*...
19:33:39 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: I agree, but shouldn't you have another container then that is composed of all devices?
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19:34:42 <Bike> "I had a long chat with Google Ideas on the phone today, and they are looking into implementing some changes on Youtube that would make it easier to do my job, so it'll be fun if they actually go ahead and do it." hmmmmmmm
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19:39:54 <Bike> yesterday, so it's probably too soon to be relevant
19:40:40 <elliott> ah yes, the famous mr. yesterday
19:41:09 <Bike> like the beatles song
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19:48:18 <Dandalion> holy moly... I just read the wiki on brainfuck lol what kind of language is this!!
19:51:25 <Bike> what planet is this *drum solo*
19:52:42 <Taneb> Okay, someone I follow on Tumblr has posted about the Youtube thing
19:52:59 <boily> Bike: I hate you. you instantly earwormed me.
19:53:23 <NihilistDandy> Thank god someone outside #esoteric is talking about it
19:53:31 <Bike> buddabuddabuddabudda
19:54:05 <elliott> i hope we were literally the first place on the internet to mention it
19:55:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Dandalion: brainf*ck is what happens when someone tries to write the easiest language to interpret possible, while still being Turing complete
19:55:42 <Bike> boily: the joke is that there isn't a drum solo
19:56:04 <elliott> there is always a drum solo
19:56:09 <pikhq_> You can actually get easier than Brainfuck.
19:56:11 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: and then takes out a letter?
19:56:21 <pikhq_> OISC systems are freaking easy to interpret.
19:56:41 <elliott> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Experiment%3A+There+may+be+confidential+content+in+your+search+results.+Please+do+not+share+outside+Google.%22&aq=f&oq=%22Experim&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
19:57:00 <pikhq_> That said, Brainfuck is *rather* easy to interpret.
19:57:04 <elliott> 14 mins ago – I got this while looking up penile implants?
19:57:08 <Bike> oh man there were only two results when i googled before
19:57:16 <JesseH> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdugSUFbzws
19:57:36 <pikhq_> ThatOtherPerson: Well, he did have an interpreter size target rather than "the absolute simplest".
19:57:48 <Bike> i thought brainfuck's goal was small /compiler/
19:57:51 <Bike> am i thinking of something else
19:58:11 <pikhq_> Ah, yes, it was a compiler.
19:58:36 <pikhq_> It was a 240 byte compiler.
19:58:44 <kmc> brainfuck is easier to compile than to interpret
19:59:00 <pikhq_> Though it's not especially hard to interpret.
19:59:39 <kmc> yeah, the only difficulty in writing an interpreter is finding matching brackets
20:00:21 <Taneb> I wonder how hard it would be to write, eg, a MIBBLLII compiler
20:00:28 <elliott> kmc: imo google owe me a job for misleading me with this message
20:00:44 <elliott> get my confidential info's
20:02:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:02:56 <Bike> hey today's a scientologist holiday
20:03:02 <Bike> the anniversary of Dianetics going on sale
20:04:03 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:04:03 <Bike> good luck on the bridge of total freedom, everyone!!!
20:04:12 <Bike> everyone except lambdabot
20:08:09 -!- lambdabot has joined.
20:08:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: uh... may your thetan be light... and fluffy... and echo its quadrillions of years of existence... and recall its... original godly powers?
20:08:37 <elliott> lambdabot was a suppressive person
20:08:59 <elliott> btw this channel is secretly for scientologists, sorry anyone who wanted esoteric programming
20:11:47 <Bike> may your thetans be clear
20:12:55 <nooodl> http://splasho.com/upgoer5/
20:13:01 <nooodl> everyone write a monad tutorial in here
20:13:47 <Bike> "UH OH! YOU HAVE USED A NON-PERMITTED WORD (MONAD)" this might be trouble
20:14:09 <nooodl> use single quotes for definitions
20:14:42 <kmc> UH OH! YOU HAVE USED A NON-PERMITTED WORD (SHITTY)
20:14:44 <kmc> impossible task
20:14:58 <Bike> steele did a talk once where he started out using only monosyllables and built up vocabulary as he went
20:15:03 <Bike> what, shitty must be in the top thousad
20:15:10 <nooodl> Bike: i saw that! it was neat
20:15:12 <kmc> no but 'shit' is
20:15:37 <Bike> a 'monad' is a thing full of shit
20:15:39 <Bike> there does that work
20:15:47 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/al.html
20:16:02 <nooodl> it was like, he's explaining some stuff, and then "I will go on, but first, let me define some more numbers. Forty is four times ten." etc
20:17:20 <Bike> hm, i wonder how simple english wikipedia does at monads
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20:18:02 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: nooodl: Is this it? http://cs.au.dk/~hosc/local/HOSC-12-3-pp221-236.pdf
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20:18:40 <Bike> i don't know, i watched the video
20:18:45 <nooodl> there's a video too yeah
20:18:49 <Bike> ain't got no time for your reading shit
20:18:55 <Bike> is 'ain't' in the top thousand
20:19:00 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
20:20:11 <Bike> There is no page "Monad" on this wiki. John Dee: He wrote Monas Hieroglyphica ("The Hieroglyphic Monad ") in 1564 (about Kabbala and alchemy ). He also wrote the preface to the first ...
20:22:56 <ThatOtherPerson> Yet you are currently communicating with a text-based medium
20:23:09 <nooodl> A 'function' is a thing that turns one or more things into a new thing. (This is called 'applying' a 'function' to its 'arguments'.)
20:23:17 <elliott> yes but i don't read anything anyone here says because it's all shit
20:23:20 <nooodl> A 'functor' is a thing that acts as a wrapper (or 'context') for other things. Anything in the 'Functor' type class knows how to use 'fmap', a 'function' that 'applies' another 'function' onto each thing inside the wrapper.
20:23:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Yet you just read the sh*t I wrote in order to respond to it
20:23:42 <Fiora> kmc: http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/4654974/HITBSecConf2008_-_Malaysia_Videos___Day_2 I found where that guy's talk was but there's no seeds :<
20:23:48 <nooodl> A 'monad' is a 'functor' with two more 'functions' on it: 'return' and 'join'. 'return' gives you the thing you pass it, inside a wrapper that is as simple as possible. 'join' takes a wrapper that has more wrapped things inside it, and puts the inner things inside the outer wrapper.
20:24:00 <Bike> i love wrappers
20:24:04 <elliott> ok i literally can't reply seriously to any statement you make that bowlderises a curse word. it's the most ridiculous thing. i'm sorry
20:24:21 <elliott> bowlderises... what's the proper term for asterisk-based censorship
20:24:22 <Bike> are thatotherperson's messages being passed through a filter
20:24:28 <elliott> it's not strictly "bowlderisation" really
20:24:28 <Bike> bullshiterises
20:24:28 <nooodl> elliott: disemvowels hth
20:25:06 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: is sh*t even a curse word? I mean, it just means excrement
20:25:16 <elliott> is fuck even a curse word? i mean, it just means sex
20:25:42 <Bike> copulate you mothercopulator
20:25:43 <elliott> Fiora: wow where even is .sx
20:25:51 <Fiora> um, I have no idea
20:25:56 <elliott> how long until the pirate bay runs out of countries
20:25:59 <pikhq_> elliott: To Americans, yes.
20:26:14 <Bike> elliott: it's still the netherlands
20:26:21 <Taneb> http://splasho.com/upgoer5/?i=DFNaoJ9hLJDaVTymVTRtp29lqPOiMvO0nTyhMlO3nTIlMFOcMvO5o3HtnTS2MFOuVUEbnJ5aYPO5o3HtL2ShVUE1pz4tnKDtnJ50olOiozHto2LtqTuyp2Htq2y0nPO0nTHtqUyjMFOiMvO0nTHtqTucozptp3E1L2fto250olOcqPOuozDtnJLtrJ91VTuuqzHtLFO3LKxto2LtqUIlozyhMlO0nTyhM3ZtnJ50olOxnJMzMKWyoaDtp29lqUZto2LtqTucozqmVTShMPOuoUAiVT9hMFOiMvO0nTImMFO3nKEbVUEbMFO0rKOyVT9zVUEbMFOznKWmqPOmo3W0VT9zVUEbnJ5aplOmqUIwnlOioaEiVTy0YPO5o3HtL2ShVT1un2Hto25yVT9zVUEbMKAyVUqcq
20:26:21 <Taneb> TttqTuyVUE5pTHto2LtqTuyVUAyL29hMPOmo3W0VT9zVUEbnJ5aplOmqUIwnlOioaEiVTy0YvOHnTIlMFOupzHtoJShrFOiMvO0nTImMF4tITuypzHtnKZto25yVT9zVUEbMKAyVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtnTS2MFOgLJ55VUEbnJ5apljto25yVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtoJS5LzHtoz90VTuuqzHtLFO0nTyhMlOuqPOuoTjtLaI0VT1urJWyVTuuqzHto25yYPOuozDto25yVUEbLKDtoTI0plO5o3HtqTSfnlO0olO0nTHtq29loTDtqT8tp2IyVUqbLKDtqTucozptrJ91VTuuqzHu
20:26:28 <Fiora> kmc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfFMKAeFfK8&list=PL5963D975D2395CA3
20:26:31 <Taneb> That permalink thing sucks
20:26:39 <elliott> does it literally just encode what you typed in
20:26:45 <Bike> just encode the entire page into the url
20:27:03 <Taneb> http://goo.gl/DcjX5
20:27:28 <nooodl> imo taneb's explanation is
20:27:29 <Bike> That's a run-on sentence par excellence, sir.
20:27:59 <nooodl> ooh are these [] Maybe and IO
20:28:11 <elliott> hey tim shachaf is doing an "a m a"
20:28:24 <elliott> famous for: designing adventure games, #esoteric
20:28:54 <Taneb> I think that monad tutorial is even almost true
20:29:33 <Bike> https://twitter.com/joeshachaf
20:29:52 <nooodl> Taneb: you should've really used 'monad' more instead of 'one of these'
20:30:04 <Taneb> nooodl, I felt like that was cheating
20:31:29 <elliott> how many of you haven't played the first two monkey island games also (so i can pester you to on a semi-regular basis)
20:31:52 <nooodl> i've only played the first one
20:32:04 <Taneb> elliott, can you send me a copy for N64
20:32:09 <nooodl> elliott: please pester me about playing the second one semi-regularly
20:33:00 <Taneb> Was monkey island the one where you stood on a ball and rolled around
20:33:09 <Bike> that's super monkeyball
20:33:21 <elliott> nooodl: the second one is better than the first
20:33:28 <Taneb> I haven't played that either
20:33:33 <Bike> in monkey island you don't actually play as a monkey, shockingly
20:33:59 <nooodl> elliott: maybe when monqy's around i'll tiredlivestream it
20:34:10 <elliott> nooodl: imo play it when not tired
20:34:20 <elliott> nooodl: also i've been pestering monqy to play them
20:34:24 <elliott> you can't spoil him!! not allowed
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20:34:42 <Bike> who the hell is monqy
20:34:53 <Taneb> That is the beauty of monqy
20:35:16 <boily> looks like non-existing competition. we'll have to settle that.
20:35:25 <elliott> it sort of sucks that CRTs are dead
20:35:35 <elliott> and now everything low-resolution looks like jaggedy crap
20:43:54 <pikhq_> It doesn't help that scalers tend to be implemented really poorly.
20:48:25 <kmc> maybe one day I will accept that I don't have to like everyone and not everyone has to like me and I will stop feeling horribly guilty about this
20:49:23 <elliott> imo people who don't like kmc are lame
20:51:15 <Bike> it's still hard to deal with sucky people.
20:52:14 <Fiora> I try to avoid them and hope for the best
20:59:17 <ion> Coursera Improvisation Class Assignment 01 https://soundcloud.com/jki/coursera-improvisation-01
20:59:28 <Taneb> Nobody doesn't like me
21:01:25 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: btw he was lying to you; his real name is Ulysses hth
21:01:30 <Bike> i'm an athelete!
21:02:44 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, you're the second person who's told me that in two days!
21:07:09 <nooodl> also, wow, this old amiga stuff
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21:28:48 <elliott> Gregor: hi you know about midi right
21:29:31 <elliott> Gregor: is fluidsynth or timidity better
21:29:41 <Gregor> fluidsynth, by far, but it's buggy as fuck.
21:30:04 <Gregor> timidity won't crash on you, but it's not going to get you any better MIDI than you could've gotten out of Windows 95.
21:30:45 <elliott> man i LOVE windows 95's midi though
21:32:19 <pikhq_> Oh man. Get me my wavetable sound card.
21:32:48 <elliott> okay why is scummvm not audioing properly......
21:33:48 <Gregor> elliott: webmidi uses fluidsynth, for whatever that's work.
21:34:09 <elliott> okay not even the pc speaker emulator mode works
21:34:37 <elliott> ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq failed: Permission denied
21:34:47 <elliott> do i need to be in a group i'm not or something
21:35:08 <elliott> i heard something about you don't need the audio group with systemd or something
21:35:16 <nooodl> hmmm that means stuff like, for (c = 'a'; c <= 'z'; c++), is undefined behaviour
21:35:30 <elliott> nooodl: digits are guaranteed to be in order though
21:35:34 <elliott> implementation defined behaviour
21:36:03 <Gregor> <elliott> do i need to be in a group i'm not or something <-- probably
21:36:18 <Gregor> On Debian it's "audio"
21:36:45 <elliott> but i swear when i upgraded and systemd came in
21:36:50 <elliott> stuff said to remove your account from all groups like that
21:36:54 <elliott> because they're unnecessary now?????
21:37:11 <elliott> imo what's the REAL story, alsa was an inside job
21:37:19 <elliott> Gregor: Adding your user to groups (sys, disk, lp, network, video, audio, optical, storage, scanner, power, etc.) is not necessary for most use cases with systemd. The groups can even cause some functionality to break. For example, the audio group will break fast user switching and allows applications to block software mixing. Every PAM login provides a logind session, which for a local session will give you permissions via POSIX ACLs on audio/video
21:37:50 <kmc> elliott: alsa was the reichstag fire that brought pulseaudio to power
21:40:08 <kmc> it's truly inspiring how quickly i can demolish a bag of candy
21:40:24 <kmc> i'm teaching children everywhere to succeed
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21:42:59 <nooodl> youtube videos stopped loading
21:43:10 <nooodl> maybe im getting arrested because of all that illegal content in my search results
21:48:19 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/video/time-announces-new-version-of-magazine-aimed-at-ad,17950/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
22:00:00 <kmc> utm_source=butt
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22:27:33 <boily> what is a flanimal?
22:29:58 <JesseH> That's gonna be my new language...
22:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "." is a brainfuck derivative where the only instruction is .
22:31:00 <JesseH> If you implement it it means less work for me.
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22:31:24 <JesseH> Phantom_Hoover, each . stands for a byte in memory
22:31:34 <JesseH> The only memory you get is 100 .'s
22:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> upon execution, . outputs the ascii code corresponding to the current tape cell
22:32:16 <JesseH> what about white space ^_^
22:32:39 <JesseH> I do want to start implementing a new, stupider language soon.
22:32:58 <JesseH> I don't really see a need to continue though :P
22:33:08 <JesseH> Phantom_Hoover, I was thinking something like...
22:33:33 <JesseH> but I'm sure a language is like that already
22:33:42 <JesseH> I need to think of something better
22:35:37 <boily> peruse, ponder, produce, perpetrate.
22:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're going to make a boring language to claim a funny name, might as well do it with gusto
22:36:30 <JesseH> I'm going to make a language do EVERYTHING except for what you tell it not to do.
22:38:39 <boily> look at the wiki, think about what you have not seen yet, do it, start from beginning.
22:39:36 <boily> and if you're thinking about doing a bf derivative, remember that you have seen it. very seen it.
22:40:02 <JesseH> I don't even want to learn brainfuck because its everywhere
22:40:09 <JesseH> Why is there 10000 bf derivatives
22:40:18 <pikhq_> Because it's really easy to make one.
22:40:31 <JesseH> Okay well, VIVA REVOLUTION
22:40:38 <JesseH> follow me if you want to live!(away from bf)
22:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover> will you back the Hoover Final Solution for bf derivatives
22:41:46 <JesseH> so confused...not sure if I'm tired, or too much interested in code to pay close attention
22:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> listing the name, what they rename the instructions to, the author, and some implementation
22:42:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can just have one unified implementation for all of them
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22:42:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah but that would kind of detract from the mockery
22:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> put at the top "any of these languages can be implemented with <trivial program>" and then have all the vanity interpreters the authors write below it
22:43:54 <JesseH> Maybe a language that was made to be used for a very specific purpose :P
22:45:43 <boily> the Great Unified Theory of Brainfuck Derivatives.
22:46:07 <boily> (with sparkles and shiny equations and morphisms with sequins)
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22:46:36 <JesseH> Maybe a language made for bashing brainfuck
22:47:37 <boily> ah no. the original is quite good.
22:48:45 <JesseH> yeah but it's just...a turn off that theres so many derivatives.
22:48:57 <JesseH> esoteric language? like brainfuck?
22:49:30 <JesseH> maybe it's just that it is that awesome @.@
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