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00:21:50 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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00:33:18 <Koen_> if you do that zzo38 I'm totally playing
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00:37:03 <kmc> Pokemon game for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine
00:42:43 <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
00:43:36 <Bike> if it helps i'm annoyed at computers
00:43:41 <Bike> so imo, in general, fuck
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01:15:38 <elliott> does anyone really understand how free variables work
01:15:59 <shachaf> left adjoint to forgetful variables hth
01:17:38 <ion> Hope this helps. Helps.
01:18:16 <Bike> is this a category thing again
01:20:18 <elliott> actually this is incredibly frustrating
01:20:22 <elliott> i have no idea how anything is supposed to work
01:21:12 <shachaf> Bike: a free functor is left adjoint to a forgetful functor hth
01:21:33 <shachaf> Bike: (and a cofree functor is right adjoint to a forgetful functor hth)
01:21:37 <Bike> yes but variables what
01:21:40 <Bike> y'all fucking suck
01:21:55 <shachaf> fizzie: what if the regexp ends with "hth)" or "hth."? hth
01:22:06 <shachaf> fizzie: "regexp" is now a euphemism for "string" hth
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01:31:49 <Sgeo> What is a program calling itself "Microsoft Windows Operating System" doing in msconfig?
01:32:33 <Sgeo> According to Google it's legit wtf
01:32:49 <Sgeo> Even the filename sounds suspicious
01:33:03 <Bike> you sure about that legitimacy dude
01:33:04 <pikhq_> Ah, yes, that's the peer to peer messaging service in Windows.
01:33:11 <pikhq_> Yes, that's actually in Windows.
01:33:17 <pikhq_> It's stupid as shit, but it's part of the OS.
01:33:51 <zzo38> Maybe it can be disabled if not used
01:34:46 <copumpkin> yeah, I love those really shady sounding services
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01:41:01 <kmc> `addquote <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
01:41:05 <HackEgo> 1033) <Sgeo> So. In general. Fuck ... actually, I'm not really annoyed at anything right now
01:41:25 <zzo38> Just disable them if you don't use them, even if legitimate; except the ones required for the operating system to function in general.
01:42:06 <kmc> that's what i do for gnome
01:42:38 <elliott> kmc: do you know about free variables
01:43:13 <shachaf> elliott: de bruijn index > number of lambdas hth
01:44:49 <kmc> i am not a number, i'm a free variable! (the joke is about locally nameless representations of lambda calculus)
01:45:23 <shachaf> conor mcbride already made that joke hth
01:46:24 <kmc> conor mcbride has already made every joke
01:46:29 <Bike> what the hell are you talking about elliott!
01:46:55 <elliott> this paper literally has bound free variables
01:47:53 <Bike> like... quantification over variables, or...
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01:49:25 <elliott> no as in its constructor for free variables takes a data type which has a constructor for bound variables
01:49:49 <elliott> and there's a separate constructor for actually bound variables
01:50:09 <Bike> i refuse to believe this is a real explanation
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01:53:14 <pikhq_> Perhaps you should take out your rage on important problems.
01:56:43 <kmc> in general, fuck
01:57:11 <elliott> how about you do this for me instead
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02:01:30 <kmc> how about no
02:01:48 <kmc> the donkey died, you're the donkey now elliott
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02:20:05 <zzo38> Another idea of computer game is a cross of Tetris and pinball; the flippers could also move the tetris blocks left/right, and then you can nudge the table to make the ball bounce off of the blocks in certain ways, which are worth different number of points; maybe four lines at once gives you a ball saver
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02:49:02 * Sgeo vaguely suspects a hardware problem
02:49:19 <kmc> suspect it of what?
02:49:42 <Sgeo> Is it plausible that one OS might behave worse than another, but both behave badly, in the presence of a hardware problem?
02:49:49 <kmc> very much so
02:49:53 <Sgeo> Causing the massive slowdowns and pain I've been having for a while
02:50:11 <Sgeo> On both Windows and Linux.
02:50:25 <Sgeo> I've been sort of blaming the Linux issues on using an obsolete distro
02:50:29 <Sgeo> But now I'm wondering...
02:50:42 <Bike> is kubuntu obscure
02:51:01 <kmc> kubuntu should have the same drivers as regularbuntu
02:52:38 <Sgeo> :( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/business/media/cablevision-picks-up-glenn-becks-internet-channel.html?_r=0
02:52:44 <kmc> is any particular operation slow?
02:52:50 <kmc> any errors in dmesg?
02:53:22 <Sgeo> [ 509.462816] ecryptfs_read_and_validate_header_region: Error reading header region; rc = [-4]
02:53:29 <Sgeo> That's just the last line of dmesg
02:54:40 <kmc> anything else? disk IO errors?
02:55:03 <kmc> btw ecryptfs sucks; if you end up re-installing I recommend full-disk encryption with LUKS
02:55:16 <kmc> which is something the Debian installer can set up automatically, and probably Ubuntu as well
02:56:28 * Bike "dmesg | grep -i error", sees fs has been remounted five times
03:02:28 <Sgeo> No problems ATM
03:02:33 <Sgeo> They usually get worse later
03:03:08 <kmc> 'top' may also be useful, see if the time is spent on CPU or on IO waiting, and what processes are associated
03:03:18 <kmc> then you can strace those processes and see what the slow operations are
03:04:55 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sXTrlZeDyg
03:06:45 <elliott> okay i have diagnosed one facet of my tiredness problem
03:06:59 <elliott> i meant to type variable problem
03:07:35 <Singingboyo> well you've certainly proved that you're tired.
03:08:14 <elliott> imo, both of you can shut right up.
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03:29:29 <elliott> maybe i should get drunk and then try to write this typechecker
03:37:30 <zzo38> Is it supposed to be a drunk typechecker?
03:41:35 <elliott> it can be any kind of typechecker
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03:43:23 <zzo38> Why should you get drunk to write it unless you are writing a drunken typechecker?
03:44:28 <kmc> this is some good logic
03:49:55 <elliott> zzo38: well if i am drunk then maybe all this will be less irritating and i will blurt out some working code
03:50:38 <Sgeo> So, languages whose static typecheckers pass all input programs are common, and often loved by some for this feature. How about a language where no programs pass the static typechecker?
03:50:45 <Sgeo> What would such a type system be like?
03:50:57 <Sgeo> The former is often done by having one type
03:51:33 <shachaf> the initial object in the category of type systems?????????
03:52:26 <Bike> well, you could have the trivial typechecker of "fuck you"
03:52:30 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you can try if you want to
03:52:35 <Bike> i guess you could also have a type checker that never halts?
03:52:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Is there a category of type systems?????????????????????/
03:52:57 <Bike> is there shachaf
03:53:41 <elliott> Bike: worse, i could have Bike as my typechecker
03:53:42 <Sgeo> Bike, I want an equivalent of "fuck you" expressed in terms of a type theory that goes "fuck you"
03:53:59 <Sgeo> *effectively goes
03:54:18 <Bike> Sgeo: so you have a type checker that's a program that ignores its input and writes "fuck you" on the terminal.
03:54:29 <Bike> aka elliott, maybe.
03:55:08 <Sgeo> no static type checker : static type checker passes everything : everything is the same type :: fuck you to everything : static type checker that rejects all programs : ???
03:56:19 <Bike> can you do analogy syntax like that? i don't know if i can handle this.
03:57:23 <Bike> That doesn't even make sense. "no static type checker" is analogous to "fuck you to everything"?
03:58:07 <Sgeo> No static type checker is sort of opposite to fuck you to everything
03:58:27 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, not quite
03:59:03 <Bike> What you mean is: "everything passes : static type checker that passes everything : everything is the same type :: no program passes : static type checker that rejects everything : ???"
03:59:42 <Bike> I guess the obvious would be that everything is a different type. And there's no punning or anything.
04:00:36 <Sgeo> Esolang idea, I guess
04:00:52 <Sgeo> Do languages where no programs compile but for interesting reasons count as esolangs?
04:01:20 <Bike> it's better than a brainfuck derivative, anyway.
04:01:41 <Bike> you should write a compiler that gives detailed explanations of why your program, specifically, won't compile. and have it do that for all programs
04:01:48 <Bike> also have it say "fuck" a lot and call it elliottson.
04:02:31 <Sgeo> Well, it should have a syntax
04:02:58 <Bike> Obviously. You need something to reject.
04:03:39 <shachaf> Bike: There is shachaf, yes.
04:04:44 <shachaf> I fell asleep in the afternoon until the evening. :-(
04:04:56 <shachaf> Now it's midnight and I won't sleep.
04:14:45 <zzo38> Does vi or emacs have any extensions to ring the bell when the cursor moves near the end of the line?
04:15:46 <Bike> you could certainly write that.
04:18:22 <zzo38> Now I am writing the "Aberration Saver" prestige class into the computer.
04:31:34 <Lymia> "(4-3-2). Further applications of programming techniques, introducing the fundamental concepts of data structures and algorithms. Topics include recursion, fundamental data structures (including stacks, queues, linked lists, hash tables, trees, and graphs), and algorithmic analysis. Recommended prerequisite: COSC 1437."
04:31:37 <Lymia> This is a course description.
04:31:49 <Lymia> Guess how many semesters in this is, going by recommended preequisites
04:33:40 <zzo38> Well, I don't know what "COSC 1437" is so I cannot guess very well.
04:33:44 <coppro> ok, my job is both sweet
04:45:37 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy oh i remememembered the amazing discovery
04:52:11 <zzo38> I made this list of idea of computer games: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10081
04:55:18 <shachaf> the wheels on the Bike go round and round hth
05:00:31 <Lymia> he course is called "Programming Fundamentals III"
05:00:58 <Bike> yeah, i hada class that sounded about the same, and i think it was just a semester
05:10:31 <zzo38> What bothers me a lot about most web browser programs is that it treats URLs entered in the location bar as absolute (my own treats them as relative). What is your opinion?
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05:11:28 <Bike> if i'm entering URLs myself something is going wrong anyway
05:12:42 <zzo38> Bike: It is? Are you sure?
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05:13:07 <zzo38> I always enter them myself, and I find the relative entry very useful.
05:13:23 <Bike> yeah, i usually use a search (like wikipedia's), or, you know, hyperlink
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05:14:06 <zzo38> Well, I *often* enter them myself; I do use search (such as Wikipedia), hyperlink, speeddials, etc too.
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05:17:04 <mnoqy> whats the amazing discovery
05:17:14 <shachaf> it turns out to be "not "so amazing""
05:17:24 <mnoqy> oh what is it anyway
05:17:38 <shachaf> It's so unamazing it's embarrassing.
05:17:52 <mnoqy> oh..............what is it anyway :>
05:18:48 <shachaf> It's too embarrassing to share.
05:19:38 <mnoqy> oh.........................................what is it anyway :»
05:20:06 <shachaf> mnoqy don't do this to me :⋘
05:20:39 <shachaf> Bike: I'm basically elliott now. Should I go to sleep?
05:21:14 <shachaf> Is "God" like "Simon Says"?
05:21:20 <kmc> i like how typing search terms into the URL bar was a quintessential "old person bad at computers" thing and then it basically became the only way people use the url bar within the space of a few years
05:21:45 <shachaf> kmc: It's a conspiracy by old people.
05:21:50 <Bike> Old people are a pretty good basis for how computer interfaces should work, really.
05:21:53 <zzo38> kmc: To me, if I search in the URL bar it is always with a prefix starting with a colon, such as ":w " for Wikipedia.
05:21:54 <Jafet> Computer-assisted dementia
05:22:10 <Bike> That's why I also whisper conspiratorially into my watch
05:22:17 <Bike> always. also. same word
05:22:21 <zzo38> Bike: I don't think so. I think it is a good basis for people who don't know how to use a computer should learn or not use it at all.
05:22:40 <Bike> but it's so easy for them
05:22:46 <shachaf> guess how much an advertisement on supermegacomics.com goes for
05:22:50 <Bike> "i want my computer to do this. well, i guess i'll try doing this thing and then it'll work."
05:23:04 <Bike> and then it works if they have a modern browser and otherwise you charge them for tech support.
05:23:11 <mnoqy> shachaf: how much???
05:23:21 <shachaf> apparently ~¢6???????????????????????????
05:23:33 <Bike> that's not many.
05:23:33 <shachaf> should i bid on advertisings
05:23:45 <Bike> You should make an ad teling elliott to go the fuck to sleep.
05:23:58 <shachaf> elliott doesn't even read super mega
05:24:00 <Bike> does elliott read supermegacomics
05:24:11 <shachaf> I should make an ad saying "hi monqy".
05:24:18 <elliott> i read super mega before you did
05:24:20 <Bike> well, you should make an ad for supermegacomics, so that elliott will see it and think "huh, maybe i should check this shit out"
05:24:33 <zzo38> kmc: What I mainly do with the URL entry is to enter relative URLs, such as "/" to access the root page, and to enter searches with prefixes, and sometimes full URLs. Mozilla does it the other (more common) way and I don't like that Firefox has no way to turn that feature off and change it! It is a stupid feature!
05:24:34 <Bike> that's how elliott talks btw.
05:25:00 <shachaf> Bike: Can you say "hth" a bit more? It would be easier to understand you. hth
05:25:01 <Bike> zzo do you actually like how any of the programs on your computers work
05:25:12 <Bike> shachaf: is that like "fuckshitter"
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05:26:16 <shachaf> That would be nōh or something like that, wouldn't it?
05:26:32 <zzo38> Bike: Well, some are OK, such as TeX (although they added something which results in a bug relating to file number 18, and I don't like that); most of my own programs are also OK (which is why I write them that way), and some others may be OK but many are badly designed.
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05:26:58 <Bike> I don't think I can have a character with ¯ and ° at the same time...
05:27:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you report the bug?
05:27:22 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't have an account to report the bug, nor am I sure who is responsible.
05:27:30 <Bike> OK, back up a second here.
05:27:46 <Bike> You write your programs in a good way because your programs are OK?
05:27:48 <shachaf> zzo38: An account? Just email it to Knuth.
05:28:04 <Sgeo> Writing your own web browser could be a bad idea if there's someone who is targetting you specifically and has access to the browser's code
05:28:26 <zzo38> It isn't Knuth who put that bug in, and neither me nor Knuth has email.
05:28:27 <Bike> writing your own browser is a bad idea for so many other reasons
05:28:34 <Sgeo> Web browsers are tricky to get right, I think. Websites try to do the right thing by knowing the oddities of modern browsers.
05:28:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Knuth replied to my email.
05:28:56 <shachaf> "achievement unlocked" hth
05:29:01 <Sgeo> But if your own browser has a security flaw, you can't expect websites to know about it and work to avoid making it exploitable.
05:29:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, I am using Mozilla-based; furthermore, I think all of them (Mozilla, WebKit, etc) are way too complicated.
05:29:52 <Jafet> All browsers have gaping security holes
05:30:12 <Jafet> Insult maternal ancestor here
05:30:18 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes; namely, HTML, HTTP, CSS, JavaScript, Flash, Java, etc.
05:30:26 <zzo38> And I do know about security; I always make sure to secure it whenever security is relevant (sometimes it isn't, and in those cases I usually omit those things in order to improve the performance instead)
05:31:58 <zzo38> Often there are security issues dealing with buffer overflows, out of memory, infinite loops, etc; Internet Quiz Engine doesn't even have any buffers and the programming language it implements has no backward flow control (so there is no infinite loops).
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06:49:07 <zzo38> I will define "key move" in my Pokemon card puzzles to mean all the actions you take before the first thing that is beyond your control which immediately affects you.
06:49:14 <zzo38> Is this reasonable?
06:51:32 <kmc> do you have a precise definition of "immediately affects you"?
06:51:54 <zzo38> However, the order doesn't matter to distinguish possible key moves if this order does not affect anything relevant.
06:52:47 <zzo38> kmc: No, but I do have an example; activating RATTATA [Lv12]'s power to switch the cards does not affect you until you actually draw that card.
06:56:42 <zzo38> These puzzles do not follow all the aesthetics of chess problems; I do not consider all of them important. Many of these puzzles are "dressed" (except for puzzle.4 which I think isn't; but I didn't make that one)
06:57:42 <zzo38> (Actually, I think puzzle.2 is also not dressed; puzzle.1 is clearly dressed though.)
06:59:45 <coppro> I want to develop the first ever muckbell
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07:07:21 <coppro> a muckbell is a slyming rhang
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07:09:37 <zzo38> kmc: Well, maybe I do have another definition: If playing by mail, they can be written all at once and without receiving a response.
07:09:51 <zzo38> (This isn't really mathematically precise either, though.)
07:10:43 <zzo38> Actually I guess this can be called a "move"; a "key move" would just be the first one.
07:10:55 <zzo38> (As it is in chess.)
07:16:25 <zzo38> However, in this game, the number of moves might be different from the number of turns.
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13:49:20 <JesseH> I started working on an esoteric programming language yesterday. https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang
13:49:36 <AnotherTest> @ask ThatOtherPerson I was reading some of the emulator code, and I wondered why the dcpu isn't inheriting from device itself?
14:03:41 <JesseH> My language is interpreted with an interpreter I wrote in Lua btw.
14:04:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:06:20 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law. <-- i think the distributive law is the same as bilinearity
14:07:44 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:08:11 <Taneb> This "hi" is ominous
14:08:50 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 It's called bilinearity because it generalizes from homomorphisms between abelian groups to linear transformations between modules over rings
14:08:57 <AnotherTest> Today, I made a really pointless baseclass
14:10:09 <Taneb> Today, I was reading about type algebra again
14:10:30 <Taneb> And I came upon a sudden ponderance:
14:11:09 <Taneb> I will not share it because the answer is "Shut up, Taneb, you don't really understand this"
14:13:15 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> @google "ceasar gets money where he looses hearts" <-- you could try spelling caesar correctly, although it might not help.
14:13:52 <oerjan> i also failed to answer a quiz correctly the other day because the asker grossly mispronounced caesarion.
14:14:46 <oerjan> yes. the quiz asked who his parents were.
14:14:59 <Taneb> Cleopatra's son, supposedly by Gaius Julius Caesar
14:15:17 <elliott> Taneb: if you don't share the ponderance I will have to call the police
14:15:40 <Taneb> elliott: is there any type that corresponds to something like the golden ratio?
14:15:58 <oerjan> elliott: what if the ponderance _was_ 'I will not share it because the answer is "Shut up, Taneb, you don't really understand this"' ?
14:15:59 <AnotherTest> elliott needs his daily moment of "shut up you don't know anything"
14:16:00 <elliott> wasn't there a sigfpe post about that...
14:17:25 <AnotherTest> SO question: moving wordpress from local to local
14:18:08 <AnotherTest> What's a good book about type algebra for noobs btw?
14:18:14 <oerjan> you'd want a type satisfying the polynomial for the golden ratio, right?
14:18:35 -!- FreeFull has joined.
14:18:46 * elliott trying to rederive a blog post from scratch in lieu of finding it
14:18:56 <elliott> I don't know how to go from that to solving it as a type.
14:19:36 <Taneb> If you can think of a type such data T a = N | W a a (T a) corresponds to its one-hole context, that type corresponds to inverse hyperbolic tan
14:19:43 <Taneb> http://chris-taylor.github.io/blog/2013/02/10/the-algebra-of-algebraic-data-types/
14:19:56 <elliott> well... if we say that φ is a function a -> b, as seems likely for such a weird type, then we need Maybe (a -> b) = (a -> b, a -> b)
14:20:16 * elliott consults god Wolfram to cover up for his incompetence.
14:20:47 <elliott> well, that wasn't helpful. it just told me b^a + 1 = b^(2a). I'm not /that/ incompetent
14:21:04 <elliott> if Maybe (a -> b) = (a, a) -> b
14:21:16 <elliott> maybe flipping it works better.
14:21:20 <elliott> (a, a) -> b = Maybe (a -> b)
14:22:14 <elliott> hm, φ = 1 + φ + φ^2 + φ^3 + ...?
14:22:28 <elliott> it sounds distinctly untrue.
14:23:25 <elliott> wait, is it actually true?
14:23:28 <elliott> i've got myself completely confused.
14:23:44 <oerjan> not the same polynomial
14:24:04 <elliott> was my interpretation of [] wrong... it looks like the standard expansion for the free monoid?
14:24:27 <oerjan> elliott: i find it plausible...
14:24:31 <Taneb> No, my arithmetic was off
14:24:41 <elliott> well I mean if φ = 1 + φ + n
14:24:54 <elliott> and φ^2 + φ^3 + ... does not seem to have any reason to be < 0.
14:25:04 <elliott> i am sleep deprived but at least that much makes sense to me
14:25:29 <elliott> well you sort of have to eliminate all the divisions and subtractions if you want to work out a type :P
14:25:58 <Taneb> By "more true" I distinctly did not mean "closer to the answer"
14:26:40 <Taneb> I have a home to go to
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14:28:11 <oerjan> i don't know much about handling negation or division in types other than the 1/(1-t) kind of trick
14:29:19 <elliott> wait, there's a relevant trick i'm missing? :P
14:29:40 <oerjan> i just mean 1/(1-t) = 1+t+t^2+...
14:30:13 <elliott> that's not equal to the golden ratio for any convenient t though :(
14:30:19 <oerjan> i think i've also seen someone claim t^n/n represents cyclic lists of length n
14:31:23 <elliott> that gives some sort of clue? sort of?
14:31:34 <elliott> if there's any nice trick for 1/(1+t)...
14:31:57 <oerjan> 1/(1+t) = 1-t+t^2-t^3+...
14:32:49 <elliott> φ = 1 + 1 - (φ-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:32:49 <nooodl> ugh guys how is monad pronounced
14:32:57 <elliott> φ = (φ-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:01 <nooodl> even worse dilemma: how do i pronounce it in dutch
14:33:08 <elliott> φ = ((1 + 1/φ)-1) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:16 <elliott> φ = (1/φ) + (φ-1)^2 - (φ-1)^3 + ...
14:33:21 <elliott> this does not seem to be helping.
14:33:37 <oerjan> nooodl: monachchxt*ARGH MY THROAT*
14:34:05 <nooodl> i know a "monoid" is a "monoïde" so people seem to put some effort into translating technical terms
14:34:29 <nooodl> but there's no obvious non-stupid way to pronounce "monad", which is also used in dutch
14:35:00 <oerjan> dutch is so funny, i listened to the king's inauguration speech the other day
14:35:29 <nooodl> it's all "schchcxhxsh rshcrhxschhrx"
14:35:58 <oerjan> only arabic can beat it in sheer throat messing up
14:36:33 <nooodl> oh man that's right, AnotherTest lives about a decibelgium away from me
14:36:33 <AnotherTest> that's probably just dutch dutch, not Flemish dutch then
14:37:02 <nooodl> but yeah flemish dutch is less throat-y. it's more like german
14:37:16 <oerjan> elliott: someone's probably analyzed what expressions can work as types
14:37:58 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but if I could find things, I could also just dig up the blog post.
14:38:05 <elliott> so I'm reduced to thought instead.
14:39:55 <nooodl> elliott: are you sure it's a sigfpe blog post
14:40:15 <elliott> no i've realised it wasn't
14:40:20 <elliott> uh i think it had a black background, haskell code, recent
14:40:32 <elliott> the default new wordpress theme thing
14:41:15 <nooodl> site:wordpress.com hth
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14:44:06 <elliott> oerjan: nooodl: http://ctenophoric.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/algebraic-data-part-1-golden-tree/
14:45:59 <elliott> In many everyday categories (sets, spaces, modules, ...) objects can be both added and multiplied. The arithmetic of such objects is a challenge because there is usually no subtraction. We prove a family of cases of the following principle: if an arithmetic statement about the objects can be proved by pretending that they are complex numbers, then there also exists an honest proof.
14:46:09 <nooodl> i was confused about the [x] = 1 + x + x² + x³ + ... thing at first... but now it makes sense
14:46:27 <AnotherTest> so there are exponential types. Are there hyper types?
14:47:04 <elliott> nooodl: list is either empty or one element or two elements or etc.
14:47:20 <nooodl> AnotherTest: A^^n = A -> A -> ... -> A
14:47:51 <AnotherTest> nooodl: So that would be eg. a function returning a function?
14:48:07 <elliott> I assign oerjan the task of divining the deep connection between Tree [Bool] and the golden ratio
14:48:24 <nooodl> yeah; n is a natural number here though so it's not really a "hyper type" at all
14:48:27 <oerjan> i thought that was what the blog post did
14:48:39 <boily> oerjan: could you please stop shouting your okays? it disturbs this channel's feng shui. hth.
14:48:51 <elliott> nooodl: well it doesn't count unless you have types on both sides.
14:49:11 <elliott> oerjan: well it showed the correspondence. i can't say it says much on _why_ on earth that's the type :P
14:49:14 <nooodl> indeed... i have no idea what A^^B would be though
14:49:20 <oerjan> boily: no, the precise spacing and capitalization is part of the meaning hth
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14:49:37 <nooodl> clearly A^^Bool = A -> A, somehow
14:49:41 <elliott> nooodl: well, you know that A^^Bool is A -> A
14:50:00 <elliott> data Foo = A | B | C; A^^Foo = A -> A -> A
14:51:14 <elliott> so for fixed D and C we know what the result should look like.
14:51:21 <nooodl> wait what is sqrt(2) as a type
14:52:04 <AnotherTest> What's so special about sqrt(2) as a type?
14:52:48 <nooodl> it doesn't exist in any way i can think of but i remember seeing that "negative and fractional types" paper and not understanding it at all
14:53:59 <AnotherTest> Also is A^(-1) the inverse type of A? Or what's used for that?
14:55:07 <oerjan> but does that 1+2+3+... = -1/12 equation hold in types?
14:55:59 <nooodl> and iirc it's kinda like that... here's a thing i don't understand http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf
14:56:41 <elliott> i remember edwardk mocking the negative and fractional types paper
14:57:19 <Taneb> ...have I started something here
14:57:42 <AnotherTest> Taneb: you made me read something about type algebra so thanks
14:57:55 <nooodl> > import Control.Category
14:57:56 <nooodl> > import Prelude hiding ((.),id)
14:57:58 <AnotherTest> I'm probably annoying elliott etc atm though
14:57:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `import'
14:58:12 <elliott> the only thing that annoys me is... soap
14:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> well, you can have quotients but they're not what you want
14:58:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: catch up pls
14:58:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In many everyday categories (sets, spaces, modules, ...) objects can be both added and multiplied. The arithmetic of such objects is a challenge because there is usually no subtraction. We prove a family of cases of the following principle: if an arithmetic statement about the objects can be proved by pretending that they are complex numbers, then there also exists an honest proof.
14:58:40 <elliott> cf also http://ctenophoric.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/algebraic-data-part-1-golden-tree/
14:58:54 <AnotherTest> Well I'm pretty sure inverse types can exist
14:59:22 <AnotherTest> so a division of two types A / B = A * B^(-1) I guess?
15:00:29 <elliott> i feel your presentation of A^(-1) insufficiently justified
15:00:52 <elliott> especially since it must be a function from a type (-1) to A
15:01:29 <AnotherTest> elliott: well consider it a separate notation? ^ is probably an ill chosen symbol
15:01:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> left adjoint to forgetful variables hth <-- i am hoping this is somehow actually true.
15:02:08 <elliott> nooodl: (A, [Bool] -> A) = Void
15:02:35 <elliott> yes the joke is its nonsense
15:03:18 <AnotherTest> Where can I read more about this type algebra (besides on Taneb's link which was pretty basic)?
15:03:51 <Taneb> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~byorgey/pub/species-pearl.pdf I think
15:04:07 <nooodl> http://chris-taylor.github.io/blog/2013/02/11/the-algebra-of-algebraic-data-types-part-ii/ hth
15:07:58 <nooodl> To interpret this for types, remember that the derivative operator d/da makes holes in a data structure that contains data of type a. This equation is saying that if a type doesn’t have any data of type a, then its one-hole context is Void, i.e. you can’t create any instances of it.
15:08:12 <nooodl> type algebra is so good
15:08:27 <nooodl> i have the hugest grin on my face
15:08:58 <nooodl> i don't think there's a sensible definition of type integrals
15:09:07 <nooodl> the whole constant of integration thing sounds messy
15:11:34 <AnotherTest> well assuming that this type division is a real thing, you could define rounding down types
15:11:50 <AnotherTest> then you could define modulo (assuming you also have negative types)
15:12:04 <AnotherTest> then you could implement RSA with types or something I guess
15:12:37 <AnotherTest> so someone could not only encrypt a message, but also the type of the message!
15:13:25 <AnotherTest> serious question: What's the difference between Nil and Nothing? The post seems to use both.
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16:20:18 <Vorpal> there are quite a few debian forks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DebianFamilyTree1210.svg
16:20:31 -!- Bike has joined.
16:28:03 <fizzie> Not an insignificant fraction are Ubuntu-derived.
16:28:19 <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
16:29:58 <fizzie> It is good that the line for Ubuntu Satanic Edition is RED
16:30:45 <fizzie> I'm sure "Leeenux" has a large following.
16:30:49 <NihilistDandy> I've used Damn Vulnerable a couple of times, but there are just so damn many
16:31:08 <fizzie> (Apparently it's a netbook-oriented thing.)
16:31:52 <Jafet> @quote in.the.type.system
16:31:52 <lambdabot> dons says: ghc 12.5 can implement the device drivers in the type system!
16:31:59 <Jafet> @quote in.the.type.system
16:32:00 <lambdabot> olsner says: < kmc> i think 250 milliolegs is enough to kill an elephant < olsner> kmc: ... to kill an elephant - in the type system!
16:32:16 <fizzie> Hrm, a Google search for "Descent|OS" (with quotes) seems to still be looking for the words "Descent" or "OS", not the combination.
16:32:32 <Jafet> @google +"descent.os"
16:32:33 <lambdabot> Title: DescentOS: Simple by Design
16:32:50 <fizzie> I was hoping it'd have something to do with Descent-the-game, but it doesn't seem to.
16:34:08 <Jafet> Descent was nausea-inducing, so that's not implausible
16:34:41 <fizzie> Only losers turned on the option that auto-rotates the ship so that "up" stays up.
16:35:02 <Jafet> I think it was the corridors
16:35:36 <fizzie> Can you put a bitmap object thing in a KML file or something? Like, assuming I have a bitmap map of something, and I'd like to plonk it on top of a map (assuming some reasonable projection) so that I can look at it on an Android device and see where I am?
16:36:19 <fizzie> Maybe that's an <GroundOverlay>.
16:36:42 <Jafet> Do it right, use a spheroidal bitmap
16:37:25 <fizzie> I don't know if the bitmap is even a real map, in any sort of scale, instead of just an illustration.
16:40:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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16:40:58 <Taneb> I feel a bizarre need to create a website
16:43:30 <Taneb> Hey, werecatt's at it again
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16:44:07 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
16:57:58 <fizzie> I just added an "image overlay" in Google Earth, but now I can't figure out how to edit its size/position.
16:58:44 <fizzie> Oh, it's editable when its "Properties" window is open.
17:09:36 <fizzie> Huh. The exported kmz (and kml) files work when I write the URL to the web-browser Google Maps, but not when I write it to the search field of the Android Google Maps, even though I've used that earlier to look at a kml file in the webs.
17:13:14 <JesseH> Jafet, descentos looked interesting until I saw the reddit link >_>
17:17:57 <fizzie> Why doesn't anything ever work out right? I managed to get the image overlay open in Android Google Earth (by making a dummy page with a link to it, then going there with Chrome and telling it to open it with Earth), but it only shows about one half (left half) of the image.
17:18:23 <zzo38> A feature would like to see in a GameBoy emulator is the feature to interact with the IR port driver on your computer.
17:18:23 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:18:27 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 12m 7s ago: <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law. <-- i think the distributive law is the same as bilinearity
17:18:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3h 9m 37s ago: It's called bilinearity because it generalizes from homomorphisms between abelian groups to linear transformations between modules over rings
17:20:04 <fizzie> In fact, the leftmost 1333 pixels is what it displays. IDGI.
17:20:10 <kmc> hi shachaf
17:21:34 <kmc> "Descent|OS incorporates ease of use with the power that advanced users hunger, with emphasis on functionality and lightness combined with good looks."
17:21:50 <kmc> i like that people can just say this without admitting that there are tradeoffs between these things
17:22:09 <kmc> I guess "marketing is bullshit" is not exactly a cutting edge observation
17:22:32 <elliott> i like how this site does not tell me anything helpful as a linux user
17:22:35 <zzo38> Well, yes they are tradeoffs.
17:22:51 <kmc> but it's funny that one-person Linux distro projects have bullshit marketing just like huge corporate products
17:22:52 <elliott> i had to click on to their reddit to find it's a debianoid
17:22:52 <zzo38> A simple and fast operating system is FreeDOS.
17:23:17 <elliott> kmc: i think it kind of shows how ingrained this kind of crap is to society
17:23:32 <elliott> that people think it improves everything they do to imitate it
17:24:02 <Taneb> "Taneb's linux distribution"
17:24:15 <Taneb> "It's basically debian, but stripped down, and with chromium installed by default"
17:24:16 <Bike> turns out to be slackware
17:24:17 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:24:31 <fizzie> "Tabuntu" or "Tanebuntu".
17:24:43 <elliott> kmc: have PC manufacturers stolen the whole retina thing yet, you are my update service for this fact
17:24:45 <kmc> remember, software with the features I want is "pragmatic", software with the features you want is "bloated"
17:24:55 <Taneb> fizzie: Tabuntu sounds like the mutant offspring of two colas
17:24:56 <kmc> elliott: just the Chromebook Pixel
17:25:04 <JesseH> My distro is exactly ubuntu 10.04, but without the firefox package.
17:25:09 <kmc> you can run regular Linux on it (or on a Macbook Retina for that matter)
17:25:21 <elliott> kmc: that has an arm in it right
17:25:29 <elliott> (a literal human arm to go with the retina)
17:25:39 <kmc> i expect so
17:25:47 <kmc> but no it's an x86 chip
17:26:18 <elliott> too bad the screen is tiny :/
17:26:27 <kmc> but the defs are so high
17:26:30 <elliott> i don't even know if i want a laptop
17:26:34 <elliott> i don't even know what i want
17:26:56 <elliott> all i want is a computer i can use to do the things i like using computers for without getting incredibly frustrated by it all freezing multiple times a day
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17:27:14 <elliott> and technical knowledge does not really help with this goal afaict
17:27:31 <kmc> agree/disagree: "simple" and "minimal" are not design goals, they just mean you've done your job evaluating the actual design goals
17:27:48 <Bike> i'm not sure those words actually mean anything in a design context
17:28:06 <Bike> elliott: have you considered taking up something easier like gradening or bomb defusal.
17:28:50 <tromp> reminds me of a monthy python sketch
17:29:04 <tromp> with the banker wanting to become a lion tamer
17:29:31 <kmc> Bike: yet they seem to be a huge deal in free software communities
17:29:41 <kmc> so if they mean nothing then that's... well, not surprising, but kinda funny
17:30:02 <elliott> Bike: well the problem is i'm kind of deep into this functional programming thing by now!
17:30:06 <elliott> it's wormed its way into my aesthetics
17:30:28 <elliott> my only out appears to be a purer form of mathematics, and (a) I'm not good enough for it, and (b) you still need to use computers a lot
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17:31:08 <kmc> anyway I think what I said is not 100% true because there can be varying levels of pushback against new feature requests
17:31:24 <Bike> kmc: mostly i'm thinking of http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/tagged/wallet and all the Minimal Wallets in general
17:31:34 <Bike> there's more than just those two, their tagging just sucks apparently
17:31:37 <kmc> what I said kind of presupposes a one-way (I think the kids call this "waterfall") methodology where the requirements are set in stone
17:31:45 <Bike> elliott: know who else was concerned with purity? hitler
17:31:52 <kmc> hahaha woow
17:32:00 <kmc> A modern minimalist wallet system that blocks RFID signals yet allows users to express their individuality.
17:32:10 <kmc> BUT DOES IT CELEBRATE CRAFTSMANSHIP?!?!?
17:32:20 <elliott> Bike: no i already argued with someone who has unironically compared things similar to what i was arguing about to hitler recently today!
17:32:53 <Bike> tough it up!!!
17:33:17 <elliott> maybe I should just figure out how to make a lot of money and give up on caring about things and buy a macbook, except every time i have said "i can't care about computers any more" and bought a mac it's turned out that programming on them is a net more hellish experience than dealing with other things
17:33:18 <kmc> "We're making the world's fist anime time management/tycoon game."
17:33:22 <elliott> kmc: can I just dictate programs to you
17:33:29 <elliott> that seems like the easiest solution
17:33:41 <Bike> here in the Real World you'll get baselessly compared to hitler and there's nothing you can do about it without violating my free speech
17:34:05 <Bike> yeah ok this is pointless.
17:35:31 <Bike> http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/40901452707 another minimalist wallet
17:36:05 <Bike> http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/40770610878/ just keep coming
17:36:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> all i want is a computer i can use to do the things i like using computers for without getting incredibly frustrated by it all freezing multiple times a day
17:36:34 <Vorpal> It has been years since I had problems with freezes
17:36:50 <elliott> it freezes because i use up all my ram and it starts swapping
17:36:52 <elliott> and the disk is relaly slow
17:37:03 <Vorpal> I think I had one kernel panic in the last year, that was a failing swap HDD
17:37:13 <Bike> elliott: do you even have money
17:37:16 <Vorpal> no, that was two years ago
17:37:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest getting a LOT of ram then
17:37:39 <Vorpal> elliott, 16 GB, haven't had any issues, I do use xfce though, so not very memory hungry
17:37:40 <elliott> yes i have figured out that ram in the double digits would be best for my continued sanity
17:37:45 <Vorpal> and windows is more IO-bound
17:37:50 <Vorpal> so the disk is the slow bit there
17:37:51 <elliott> Bike: i mean i don't really buy things...
17:37:57 <Vorpal> at least for like 10 minutes after boot
17:38:08 <elliott> i don't really buy things i don't love
17:38:10 <kmc> "Long cat 3D. A game built for the meme community… inspired by teh internetz."
17:38:10 <boily> elliott: what do you do that uses up all your ram? fire multiple eclipse instances at the same time?
17:38:14 <kmc> they don't even have any comment on that one
17:38:43 <elliott> boily: chromium appears to be the main culprit
17:38:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you might want to go for 32 GB, I actually managed to swap a couple of weeks ago! I had 150 tabs in chromium open and a minecraft instance that used 4GB. Also was compiling a kernel in the background
17:39:03 <Vorpal> (cross compiling a kernel)
17:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you do stupid stuff like that, 16 GB is fine :P
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17:39:40 <Bike_> speaking of stupid computer problems
17:40:42 <kmc> The World’s First Dubstep MMO
17:41:42 <kmc> “Please give $7500 to Bulk and Skull to cover damages from pies thrown at the wall during the last Power Rangers convention”
17:42:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:42:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:43:39 <Bike> those are some hella pies
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17:48:28 <kmc> "Ever since the 1st smartphone came to the market we all have been waiting for Uppercup™. The first cupholder for the iPhone."
17:49:14 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
17:53:47 <kmc> Time Lord Style - A Doctor Who 'Gangnam Style' Parody
17:54:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:54:22 <kmc> they raised $345 of a $700 goal, I don't know which of those numbers is sadder
17:57:56 -!- augur has joined.
17:59:57 <kmc> oh good there's a kickstarter solely for porn now http://offbeatr.com/ (nsfw obviously)
18:02:54 <JesseH> Yep, a friend of mine is working on this. http://offbeatr.com/project/seduction-quest-25942461211
18:03:21 <Taneb> JesseH: I don't think I know you. Are you new?
18:04:54 <JesseH> I was told by http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal that this was the place to go.
18:05:17 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:06:01 <Taneb> Yeah, this is the place to be
18:06:42 <JesseH> I recently started working on a esoteric programming language, and thought I'de hang out here. :P
18:06:51 <fizzie> elliott: "ram in the double digits" like up to a dozen bytes!
18:07:11 <kmc> JesseH: cool, what's it like?
18:07:33 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:07:43 <JesseH> This is your basic hello world program.
18:07:43 <JesseH> START:ou:hello world:DONE:
18:07:53 <JesseH> The interpreter is written in Lua.
18:08:07 <JesseH> It does some basic things, working on getting it turing complete. ^_^
18:08:22 <Taneb> Turing completeness is not as important as it may seem
18:08:36 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:08:52 <kmc> what does it do differently from other languages?
18:08:59 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang
18:09:11 <JesseH> A script MUST be on one line
18:09:25 <JesseH> I am still working on the unique part.
18:09:32 <JesseH> It handles things differently I can tell you that.
18:09:48 <Taneb> "17: amazingly another prime number"
18:10:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:10:03 <JesseH> https://github.com/jessehorne/derplang/blob/master/examples/test.derp
18:10:19 <JesseH> watch out python...derplang is coming!
18:11:40 <Taneb> That's a pretty cool esolang
18:11:59 <JesseH> Pretty easy to implement too.
18:12:17 <JesseH> A little bit harder to write...
18:12:18 <tromp> JesseH: how do you output the string ":DONE:" ?
18:12:46 <JesseH> DONE: means end of code
18:13:16 <tromp> so does exit(0) in C, but it can still print it:)
18:13:52 <tromp> you can just print it in two parts, right?
18:13:58 <JesseH> I don't use "'s to show the interpreter what is a string and what isnt
18:14:12 <JesseH> actually what you could do is do this
18:14:40 <JesseH> With one added space at the end...it makes a difference. ^_^
18:15:20 <tromp> must all programs start witrh START: ?
18:15:46 <tromp> can you have more STARTs?
18:15:52 <JesseH> Now, I could take it out, and make it not matter very easily....but why would I do that?
18:16:23 <JesseH> I forgot how I implemented it! Such bad memory
18:16:35 <JesseH> Since yesterday I've rewritten around 10 times :P
18:16:57 <JesseH> It checks the 1st, and last statement
18:17:03 <JesseH> the 1st statement MUST be start
18:17:08 <JesseH> and the last MUST be DONE
18:17:21 <JesseH> If not, it spits a DERP error to you
18:17:38 <tromp> we wouldnt want that
18:18:03 <JesseH> So yeah, if you wanted to get some input, and print it out 5 times heres what the script would look like
18:18:22 <JesseH> START:ou:What is your name?:ip:x:fo:1:5:ou:x:DONE:
18:18:33 <JesseH> I think...let me run that in my interpreter to check.
18:19:10 <JesseH> Yep that syntax is correct
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18:22:18 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
18:22:22 <HackEgo> 1034) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
18:28:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> "Tabuntu" or "Tanebuntu". <-- i think this requires Taneb to be a swahili noun prefix hth
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18:30:35 <oerjan> <kmc> remember, software with the features I want is "pragmatic", software with the features you want is "bloated" <-- what about software with the features he/she wants?
18:31:01 <olsner> depends on whether he/she is kmc or not?
18:31:46 <olsner> but I guess you were making a joke or something
18:32:07 <oerjan> olsner: clearly kmc is "I" in this case hth
18:32:39 <oerjan> i was just wondering about the full person inflection of this adjective hth
18:32:40 <Taneb> oerjan: bug-ridden
18:32:41 <olsner> but when I say I I usually mean me
18:33:07 <oerjan> olsner: but i wasn't quoting you
18:33:56 <olsner> ah, ok, I probably can't help you then
18:34:41 <Taneb> Yeah, software with the features he wants is bug-ridden
18:35:20 <oerjan> <elliott> (a literal human arm to go with the retina) <-- it suddenly occurs to me that to be literally literal you have to be made of letters
18:37:34 <mnoqy> literally made of letters???
18:38:04 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: have you considered taking up something easier like gradening or bomb defusal. <-- plz explain what "gradening" is thx
18:38:47 <olsner> oerjan: probably a typo for gardening, hth
18:39:08 <oerjan> olsner: i considered that possibility and found it implausibly boring hth
18:39:11 <Jafet> "literal" is literally a literal
18:39:19 <Taneb> It's the process of turning something into a grade
18:41:29 <boily> Jafet: only if it's properly quoted. "\"literal\"" is literally a literal.
18:42:29 <Jafet> is literally preceded by its quotation
18:42:41 <oerjan> <elliott> maybe I should just figure out how to make a lot of money and give up on caring about things and buy a macbook, except every time i have said "i can't care about computers any more" and bought a mac it's turned out that programming on them is a net more hellish experience than dealing with other things
18:43:20 <oerjan> <-- i suspect the computers made for people that don't want to care about computers are eerily unconcerned with making programming easy hth
18:43:40 <boily> but then, how do they program software for them in the first place?
18:43:49 <olsner> by cross-compiling from linux of course
18:45:48 <oerjan> <Bike> here in the Real World you'll get baselessly compared to hitler and there's nothing you can do about it without violating my free speech <-- i'm sure you can use other methods, although hitler used all of them hth
18:46:44 <boily> oerjan is very hambiguital today.
18:47:43 <HackEgo> hth here there be hambiguity
18:48:11 <oerjan> DID ANYONE ORDER A BIG HAM?
18:48:37 <Taneb> JesseH: btw did you get asked the questions
18:48:47 <Taneb> The questions are important
18:49:01 <Taneb> Firstly! Do you live in Hexham?
18:49:17 <JesseH> Sounds like a fun place to live
18:49:41 <Taneb> How about Finland?
18:50:11 <oerjan> i am sure there was a third question last time i saw it came up
18:50:12 <boily> uhm, what about his/her/its/hir geographical coordinates?
18:50:44 <oerjan> ah yes, for the #esoteric center of mass project
18:51:02 <oerjan> that also requires eir weight hth
18:51:13 <JesseH> How do I get my coords?
18:51:33 <oerjan> JesseH: i'm sure google maps can give them somehow
18:51:53 <JesseH> I live in Murica if that matters.
18:52:00 <boily> oerjan: it does, but I'm trying to subtly introduce the question for later.
18:52:24 <Taneb> boily: what's the average so far?
18:52:29 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
18:52:39 <Taneb> I'm guessing north-east atlantic
18:53:15 <JesseH> <_> #esoteric lurkers be creapin
18:53:17 <boily> Taneb: haven't compiled all the results yet (not enough datapoints), but my gut guesstimateeling is somewhere in northern atlantic.
18:53:17 <Taneb> Didn't kallisti live in Georgia
18:53:27 <boily> JesseH: thanks! and subtly your body weigh?
18:53:35 <oerjan> well someone here was from georgia
18:53:44 <JesseH> No one here is from georgia XD
18:54:02 <Taneb> JesseH: do you know anyone called Adam Curtis
18:54:04 <boily> JesseH: ah, good, someone else that works with good ol' regular orthodox pounds.
18:54:18 <oerjan> JesseH: you _could_ be right since kallisti isn't present
18:54:22 <JesseH> Taneb, sounds familiar O.o
18:54:44 <oerjan> well, unless he changed nick again without me noting
18:54:51 <Taneb> How about (and now I list all the people I know who live in Georgia):
18:55:42 <JesseH> Atlanta is the city where "it's happeneing".
18:55:48 <JesseH> I don't live there either. :c
18:56:25 <Taneb> The people I know in Georgia are either in the Savannah area (I think? is that an area?) or Commerce/Athens
18:56:38 <JesseH> The good neighborhoods >_>
18:57:10 <oerjan> `frink 135 pounds -> kg
18:57:11 <Taneb> Don't know anyone in Tbilisi, though
18:57:19 <HackEgo> 1224699399/20000000 (exactly 61.23496995)
18:57:30 <Taneb> `frink 9 stone -> lb
18:58:02 <HackEgo> Conformance error \ Left side is: 130 (dimensionless) \ Right side is: 1 kg (mass) \ Suggestion: multiply left side by mass \ \ For help, type: units[mass] \ to list known units with these dimensions.
18:58:07 <Taneb> `frink 130 lb -> kg
18:58:16 <HackEgo> 589670081/10000000 (exactly 58.9670081)
18:58:50 <JesseH> Cool esolang talk goes on here?
18:58:55 <JesseH> I haven't heard any ;D
18:59:00 <Taneb> Hahahahahahahahaha
18:59:13 <mnoqy> fsvo cool, esolang, talk
18:59:22 <JesseH> Taneb, good idea for a language!
18:59:27 <HackEgo> 417) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 844) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
18:59:49 <Taneb> JesseH, yeah, look at the topic bar
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19:00:19 <oerjan> for slight on topicness, i've been vaguely wondering if MemFractal is turing complete
19:00:48 <boily> I don't see why not. everything today and its toaster is TC.
19:01:15 <JesseH> Strange....my toaster is only toaster complete >_>
19:01:26 <Taneb> My toaster is linear-bounded
19:04:19 <oerjan> boily: i am pretty sure a variant of MemFractal that had a bit more exits/entrances to the program would be TC, but i am not sure if 4 are enough to work with.
19:05:04 <kmc> my other toaster is a hypercomputer
19:05:46 <mnoqy> i only have one toaster and it's half broken and the other half is pretty broken too and it makes bad smells so i don't like it
19:06:50 <oerjan> <Taneb> Don't know anyone in Tbilisi, though <-- * oerjan suddenly gets that. and wonders if there's a tbilisi in georgia, usa.
19:07:28 <kmc> "Tbilisi" doesn't have a disambiguation page
19:08:11 -!- ocojocaru has quit.
19:08:46 <FireFly> I assume JesseH has been properly `welcome'd?
19:09:22 <FireFly> ...those are not meant to look like matching quotes
19:09:56 <FireFly> extra welcoming can't hurt, I suppose
19:10:08 <HackEgo> JesseH: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:10:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
19:10:44 <HackEgo> FiReFlY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
19:13:33 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesgeo \ hello \ ?hh \ hyfinate \ hyphenate.fi \ instalist \ interp \ it \ joustreport \ jo
19:14:07 <FireFly> Hey, I didn't know about `emoclew
19:14:25 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/[j-z]*: No such file or directory
19:14:25 <olsner> I always read that as -claw
19:15:41 <HackEgo> bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/js \ bin/json \ bin/karma \ bin/karma- \ bin/karma+ \ bin/learn \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/log \ bin/logurl \ bin/lowercase \ bin/ls \ bin/lua \ bin/luac \ bin/luarocks \ bin/luarocks-admin \ bin/macro \ bin/makelist \ bin/makequine \ bin/maketext \ bin/marco \ bin/mlist \ bin/mov \ bin/No \ bin/nooodl: \ bin
19:15:56 <nooodl> thank god for bin/nooodl:
19:16:41 <FireFly> Useful if you're after botcycles
19:16:54 <nooodl> it was exactly that FireFly
19:17:31 <HackEgo> \ LuaRocks 2.0.12, a module deployment system for Lua \ \ NAME \ luarocks - LuaRocks main command-line interface \ \ SYNOPSIS \ luarocks [--from=<server> | --only-from=<server>] [--to=<tree>] [VAR=VALUE]... <command> [<argument>] \ \ GENERAL OPTIONS \ These apply to all commands, as appropriate: \ \ --server=<server> Fetch rocks/r
19:18:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
19:18:31 <HackEgo> \ Error: Unknown command: a
19:22:58 <FireFly> If you're into "the other kind" of esoterica..
19:24:12 <JesseH> So um, no convos are going on so...
19:24:30 <JesseH> Anyone wanna discuss my language, help me decide what to implement next/in the future?
19:25:04 <JesseH> For those who missed... (github.com/jessehorne/derplang)
19:25:19 <JesseH> Fork and or star it pl0x :-)
19:26:01 <Taneb> JesseH: make a wiki article!
19:26:26 <JesseH> Some of the design will change though so I'm afraid to go into much detail.
19:27:04 <boily> wiki articles are very important. they fend off spam and slightly embetter the SNR.
19:28:18 <shachaf> My sleep is messed up even on this coast. :-(
19:28:28 <JesseH> Taneb, where is this wiki so I can make an article
19:28:41 <Taneb> ...you got here from the community portal on the wiki
19:28:55 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:30:38 <JesseH> What am I supposed to put here? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:JesseH
19:31:14 <Taneb> My dad's entering a badminton tournament... in Helsinki
19:31:39 <oerjan> Taneb: this may upset the balance of the universe
19:31:44 <JesseH> I don't know where to put my article ;_;
19:31:59 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
19:32:35 <Taneb> oerjan: I'm not allowed to go with him because it's to do with airlines
19:33:05 <JesseH> My language is called "derplang"
19:33:08 <oerjan> Taneb: i mean hexhammers and helsinkists meeting in general.
19:33:23 <Taneb> oerjan: luckily, my dad is an Aussie
19:33:44 <oerjan> JesseH: you need to put a {{lowercase}} template on top of the article.
19:33:51 <olsner> what if helsinki and hexham are the same city but they just don't realize it?
19:34:04 <boily> btw, that reminds me that I haven't seen nortti in a while.
19:34:15 <Taneb> olsner: that would change the geography of Europe quite significantly
19:34:28 <nortti> boily: that is because I'm invisible
19:34:46 <olsner> Taneb: not necessarily, there may be wormholes or something like that involved
19:34:55 <boily> nortti: I'll continue not seeing you, then.
19:35:08 <olsner> or maybe hexhinki just exists in two places
19:35:12 <Taneb> boily: nortti: I hope you two can remain friends
19:35:24 <boily> europe still has geography? I thought your mines became depleted some decades ago.
19:35:41 <Taneb> boily: they were closed for political reasons in the 80's
19:35:43 <boily> Taneb: we can. he's invisible, I do not exist. there are many common points in that.
19:36:45 <nortti> how can a person talk on irc is they do not exist?
19:37:07 <Taneb> nortti: at least three people on this channel manage it
19:37:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: nortti: Darn you got me).
19:38:50 <nooodl> JesseH: why's it called derplang?
19:39:11 <nortti> is it derp-lang or der-plang?
19:39:42 <JesseH> Inspired by the derpitines of ancient rome
19:41:05 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
19:41:10 <mnoqy> what's unique about this derplang of yours?
19:41:10 <kmc> shachaf: which coast
19:41:16 <boily> ah, my status's preserved.
19:41:40 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
19:43:20 <nooodl> imo shachaf/mnoqy should write this entry
19:44:02 <mnoqy> `run echo nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯ > wisdom/nooodl
19:44:09 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯ > wisdom/nooodl'
19:44:18 <mnoqy> `run echo 'nooooodl? ¯\(°_o)/¯' > wisdom/nooodl
19:44:49 <JesseH> Will the Contents thingy show up automatically?
19:45:31 <boily> JesseH: contents is either javascript and or php and or stuff going on in the background, usually.
19:46:24 <boily> (sometimes it tries to invoke some grotesque ritual and reach through your screen from some eldritch portal, but this is easily dispelled by hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del with you hands behind your back.)
19:47:04 <JesseH> Someone needs to create a language, that is used for creating other languages.
19:47:30 <JesseH> > create language called mixANDfix
19:47:33 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `create'Not in scope: `language'Not in scope: `called'
19:48:02 <JesseH> It will make up random syntax and what not.
19:48:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?`?: not found
19:48:38 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
19:48:47 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
19:49:00 <Taneb> `? for further details
19:49:11 <HackEgo> for further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:49:12 <nortti> `? for further details.
19:49:16 <HackEgo> for further details.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:49:41 <Taneb> `run echo "who knows" > wisdom/for\ further\ details
19:50:47 <nortti> `run echo "See '? for further details for futher details." > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:50:53 <nortti> `run echo "See `? for further details for futher details." > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:51:00 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:51:17 <nortti> `run echo 'See `? for further details for futher details.' > wisdom/for\ further\ details.
19:53:49 <nortti> `run echo 'See `? for further details for futher details.' > wisdom/for\ further\ details\ for\ futher\ details.
19:54:26 <boily> I think I unleashed a Finn onto the channel...
19:54:30 <olsner> `? for further details
19:54:35 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
19:54:49 <olsner> `? for further details for further details
19:54:50 <HackEgo> for further details for further details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:54:56 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details
19:54:58 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:55:11 <olsner> `? for further details for futher details.
19:55:15 <HackEgo> See `? for further details for futher details.
19:55:42 <HackEgo> SEE `! FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!
19:56:20 <olsner> `! FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!
19:56:23 <HackEgo> FOR FURTHER DETAILS FOR FUTHER DETAILS!! ¯\(°_O)/¯!
19:56:32 <boily> that is some aggressive command.
19:56:43 <HackEgo> BOILY IS CANADIAN OR SOMETHING! WE ARE NOT SURE ABOUT CANADA'S EXISTENCE!
19:56:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g -e 's/!\?$/!/'
19:59:46 <boily> nortti: does it substitutes chars with similar looking but 180° rotated unicode glyphs?
20:00:29 <nortti> anyone know a perl function for that?
20:01:17 <boily> nortti: there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_of_text as a starting point.
20:02:31 <FireFly> ...is there really a wikipedia article for that?
20:02:50 <shachaf> tomorrow i will go on the BUUUUUUUUUUS
20:09:22 <nortti> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'ɐq ɔ'
20:09:54 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'ɐqɔ'
20:10:07 <nortti> it seems I have managed to fuck up my curses yet again
20:10:19 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' 'def'
20:10:37 <boily> `run echo 'abcba' | tr 'abc' '\3000\3001\3002'
20:11:01 * boily kicks HackEgo in the utf8 bits
20:12:11 <boily> `run echo 'abcdefg' | tr 'abcde' 'ɐqɔ'
20:12:15 <olsner> nortti: that curse came out alright though
20:19:24 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
20:19:29 <JesseH> Tell me what you guys think ;D
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20:22:22 <Taneb> JesseH: are numbers and strings automatically coerced to eachother
20:23:36 <Taneb> And with the arithmetic?
20:23:48 <JesseH> Explain your questions ;D
20:23:50 <Taneb> Like, if I said ad:z:x:y but x and y were strings
20:24:02 <mnoqy> JesseH: you should add a section on what's unique about your language
20:24:23 <JesseH> Taneb, if they are strings it won't work and will spit a lua error at you probably
20:25:25 <JesseH> mnoqy, I will eventually. ^_^
20:25:43 <JesseH> I am considering taking out the START and DONE things...
20:25:49 <Taneb> JesseH: would you consider an implementation inaccurate if it detected that at compile-time and didn't compile because of ti
20:28:37 <nooodl> basically if the compiler noticed "hey, this instruction says ad:z:x:y, but x and y aren't both declared as strings!" before even compiling the code
20:30:11 <AnotherTest> JesseH: it's bad because you haven't categorized it
20:30:13 <nooodl> JesseH: does 'fo' only work with single-argument commands?
20:30:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: How do you talk about rank-n types etc. in Haskell "categorically"? hth
20:30:53 <nooodl> hth is starting to transcend meaning. its just letters
20:31:10 <shachaf> All three of its letters are just.
20:32:12 <Taneb> > map Just "hth" ^.. folded._Just
20:32:22 <JesseH> nooodl, then that would throw a lua error at you
20:32:26 <boily> what are rank-n types? I tried to follow a blog article about them, but I got lost, confused, dazzled, and other similar status effects.
20:32:54 <JesseH> nooodl, yes for now, its all single argument. Must be a number. Basically it says "execute" the command with one argument x number of times.
20:33:01 <Taneb> nooodl: that's just an alternate way to express catMaybes
20:33:05 <olsner> boily: they're just types with foralls in the wrong places
20:33:14 <JesseH> AnotherTest, I see a contents thing is that what you mean?
20:33:25 <boily> olsner: that I saw, and it gave me a queasy feeling.
20:33:28 <JesseH> Oh wait no I see AnotherTest
20:33:28 <nooodl> > [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6)] ^.. folded._1
20:33:41 <mnoqy> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi") in qqq id
20:33:44 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
20:33:49 -!- Zerker has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - Timeout (10 minutes)).
20:33:58 <boily> mnoqy: my bot sucks more.
20:33:59 <shachaf> mnoqy: ??????? that's haskell
20:34:11 <AnotherTest> So because it was apparently IMPOSSIBLE to categorize the article I have done the IMPOSSIBLE and made it POSSIBLE
20:34:18 <mnoqy> rank 2 tyles "impossible"
20:34:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: GHC isn't about to infer a rank-2 type for you.
20:34:29 <Taneb> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi"); qqq :: (forall a. a -> a) -> b -> b in qqq id
20:34:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b -> b' with actual type `(t0, t1)'
20:34:38 <Taneb> > let qqq id' = (id' 5, id' "hi"); qqq :: (forall a. a -> a) -> (Int, String) in qqq id
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20:35:06 <JesseH> oh dang I am confused on categorizing!
20:35:07 <mnoqy> shachaf: well maybe ghc sucks!!!
20:35:49 <JesseH> AnotherTest, What do you mean you havent categorized?
20:36:08 <shachaf> mnoqy: well maybe it's punishment for inventing bell peppers hth
20:36:12 <JesseH> <AnotherTest> JesseH: it's bad because you haven't categorized it
20:36:42 <AnotherTest> I did it because (10:34:10 PM) AnotherTest: So because it was apparently IMPOSSIBLE to categorize the article I have done the IMPOSSIBLE and made it POSSIBLE
20:37:49 <nooodl> not in regular people haskell
20:38:26 <mnoqy> pointwise instances is a "caleskell thing"
20:38:44 <AnotherTest> nooodl: are you sure there are regular people doing haskell :p?
20:38:57 <mnoqy> AnotherTest: great joke????? :☺)
20:39:28 <boily> AnotherTest: the Haskell is regular, the people doing it are epi-regular.
20:39:30 <mnoqy> "haskell people sure are WEIRD and SPECIAL" - ??????do people really think this???????why
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20:40:14 <AnotherTest> mnoqy: because, suppose I said "hey, what do you think about Haskell?" to a random person I found on the street
20:40:27 <AnotherTest> They'd probably be like "What? Haskell? That's weird!"
20:40:52 <AnotherTest> So they surely thing it's very WEIRD and SPECIAL
20:41:37 <mnoqy> and what about that makes haskell people weird or special
20:42:13 <AnotherTest> weird or special is not an objective property
20:42:37 <AnotherTest> in their opinion, it is is weird because it is not typical
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21:12:47 <kmc> 'night Taneb
21:12:51 <kmc> Tanebnight
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23:25:51 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/martindavidsson/96160482/ paul graham keeping it classy
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23:26:50 <Bike> whether the people funding you respect you: important to self-esteem
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23:28:01 * Sgeo contemplates an alternate universe where the domain of a .js file is the domain that the file was served from
23:29:26 <JesseH> I think my language is becoming too useful.
23:33:10 <JesseH> Yep, might just stop development here. It does enough. ^_^
23:40:15 <JesseH> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Derplang
23:40:43 <JesseH> Actually no, once I get a better conditional statement, and some socket library access, ill say it's "done".
23:40:59 <JesseH> That way I can start working on my other ideas ^_^
23:43:13 <coppro> have you implemented this so-callend language
23:43:23 <JesseH> Scroll down look for the github
23:43:45 <JesseH> What would be the point designing a language without implementing?
23:46:41 <Sgeo> GitHub is 403'ing when I try to push to it :(
23:47:53 <Lumpio-> Maybe somebody found another mass assignment bug with their roobee on reuls
23:48:55 <Sgeo> I need two domains
23:49:07 <Sgeo> Was thinking dropbox and github, but maybe there's another place I can use?
23:49:47 <Sgeo> I could use Farmingdale I guess
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23:50:11 <boily> Sgeo: don't listen to heretics. stay true to github!
23:50:21 <Lumpio-> Why do you need two domains
23:50:44 <kmc> publish your code in a distributed proof of work block chain
23:50:49 <Sgeo> Want to show my boss that something he said would work won't work.
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23:51:08 <Lumpio-> You know you can map as many domains as you want onto your local server via /etc/hosts
23:51:37 <Sgeo> Too lazy to run a local server
23:52:11 <JesseH> I don't think youll die if you don't push for a few minutes
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23:58:44 <kmc> ruby on reals
23:59:08 <kmc> web framework for FRACTRAN?