00:00:47 <Koen_> have you tried that fancy inform 7 language?
00:01:27 <zzo38> No, I have not tried any version of Inform. I am using my own assembler for Z-machine.
00:03:49 <zzo38> Inform has a some restrictions, such as requiring that the word separators are .," and that dictionary entries have 9 bytes each, that property tables cannot be shared (although ZIL has the same restriction), etc
00:05:16 <zzo38> There are many other things that can be done with the Z-machine that I don't know if ZIL or Inform supports.
00:07:16 <Sgeo> Downloaded Kubuntu 13.04
00:14:16 <zzo38> This includes: overlapping property tables (where some objects share some but not all properties; a dummy property entry will be needed to separate them), repointing property tables at runtime, changing the alphabet table at runtime, modifying default property values at runtime, making the global variable table overlap the default property table (possibly even the header of object 1), ...
00:17:49 <Sgeo> WebGL, WebGL, who doesn't love WebGL?
00:17:54 <Sgeo> WebGL WebGL I love you
00:18:06 * Sgeo hasn't actually used WebGL-based stuff much
00:19:05 <kmc> i don't love it because it gives untrusted JavaScript code a huge amount of access to one of the biggest and scariest subsystems of the Linux kernel
00:19:55 <kmc> and a successful attack through graphics card / driver would likely bypass most Chrome sandboxing
00:20:11 <Bike> I bet it would make for a cool blog post though.
00:20:35 <Sgeo> If there was a prompt that needed to pop up for WebGL to activate, then it would be rougly equiv. to downloading and running an application?
00:20:40 * Bike 's system doesn't even support webgl. take that,attackers
00:20:50 <Fiora> kmc: it's terrifying just how huge and complex graphics drivers are
00:21:02 <Sgeo> Presumbaly the user would need to trust... oh. Users are gullible. But then users would be gullible to download .exes anyway
00:21:08 <Bike> Sgeo: it's not like that stops worms on windows
00:21:12 <Fiora> and I mean, like, they solve really huge problems, taking vast amounts of directx/opengl/etc code and transforming it into optimized graphics... commands and everything
00:21:19 <Fiora> but like. they're millions and millions of lines of code O_O
00:21:55 <Fiora> it sounds like they'd be really cool to work on though
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00:22:00 <kmc> yeah the prompt is a total cop-out
00:22:15 <kmc> i mean if I have to trust any WebGL app as if it were unsandboxed native code, then it's not really "Web"GL is it
00:22:19 <zzo38> Another thing that can be done, is that the fix pitch bit in the header could be used to allow an undone operation to take one bit of information from the undo operation
00:22:32 <kmc> don't get me wrong, I would still want the prompt if I enable WebGL at all
00:22:35 <kmc> but it doesn't really solve the problem
00:22:42 <zzo38> I don't know if any Z-machine game does this.
00:22:48 <kmc> not hard to wrap your exploit in some pretty WebGL demo and get it posted to Hacker News
00:23:47 <Sgeo> I guess OpenGL commands that _should_ be safe aren't necessarily?
00:23:51 <Fiora> kmc: and you can sneak a bitcoin stealer into the exploit
00:23:59 <Fiora> (given that it's hacker news)
00:24:04 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, because of bugs in the graphics card or its drivers
00:24:06 <kmc> which are huuuuuuuuuuge
00:24:22 <kmc> I read that nvidia's closed source graphics driver is about as big as Linux with all modules
00:24:25 <kmc> which is to say ~10 MLOC
00:24:33 <Fiora> wow, that's even bigger than I imagined
00:24:34 <kmc> that's leaving aside all of the software and hardware on the card itself
00:24:48 <kmc> the card of course has privileges to write to anywhere in RAM that you like
00:24:58 <kmc> (unless you have some IOMMU stuff set up just right)
00:25:43 <kmc> as for open source drivers, well they might be a bit smaller, but they're scary as hell and often based on an incomplete reverse-engineered understanding of the hardware
00:26:19 <zzo38> Maybe the driver is too complicated because the hardware is too complicated.
00:26:30 <Fiora> I think it's probably because the *problem* is really complicated...
00:26:58 <kmc> yeah, although I'm sure a lot of it is backwards compatibility junk as well
00:27:09 <Bike> making doom 2 run is NP-complete
00:27:11 <Fiora> probably >_< especially given they have to support really really old cards
00:27:15 <Fiora> though I think they've dropped a lot of those
00:27:26 <kmc> compat code is another really scary class of kernel code
00:27:50 <kmc> it does weird data-format munging, often violates assumptions made elsewhere (e.g. by calling syscalls from kernel mode), and is often poorly / not tested
00:27:57 <Sgeo> Doesn't IE still support content-sniffing on text/plain for compatibility reasons?
00:28:15 <Sgeo> Compatibility issues in general suck, I think
00:28:30 <kmc> there was a local root hole in the Linux kernel code for uploading firmware to a V4L version 2 card on a 64-bit system using the 32-bit V4L version 1 APIs
00:28:36 <Sgeo> (As in, sniffing for HTML on what server claims to be text/plain)
00:28:44 <kmc> which is something that nobody ever tried to do, and the code to do it was very broken
00:28:50 <kmc> but it was in the kernel for years
00:29:05 <Sgeo> Is OpenBSD any better?
00:29:10 <kmc> it has less stuff
00:29:30 <kmc> Linux with minimal config is a lot better than standard kitchen sink Linux kernels
00:29:39 <kmc> even better if you have grsecurity / PaX patches
00:30:01 <Sgeo> Going to go reboot now
00:30:08 <kmc> into OpenBSD?
00:30:14 <Sgeo> Sorry to disappoint
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00:32:29 <Bike> have there been any high-profile like, uses of exploits? a worm or something?
00:33:43 <kmc> of linux kernel exploits?
00:34:28 <kmc> well there are very few remote kernel exploits, so you would need to pair it with a remote user exploit of some kind to make a worm
00:34:37 <kmc> and depending on your worm's goals, getting root is maybe not that useful
00:34:43 <Bike> well what i'm asking is like
00:34:47 <Bike> what do people do with linux exploits
00:35:28 <kmc> get root on VPSes that they've compromised through a WordPress vulnerability
00:35:54 <kmc> or even shared hosting servers with a bunch of processes running as different users
00:36:33 <kmc> then you can have some fun with root access
00:37:18 <Fiora> so like, you could get root on a server at amazon ec2, and then do whoknowswhat on their network?
00:37:25 <kmc> you can also break out of Linux Containers / OpenVZ / Virtuozzo containers with a kernel exploit I believe
00:37:25 <Fiora> (though I'd guess amazon would have really good security)
00:37:45 <kmc> EC2 uses the Xen hypervisor so you would also need a Xen breakout exploit even if you have root on a guest
00:38:09 <Fiora> so with VPSs that don't do hypervisors, you'd just need a kernel exploit
00:38:37 <kmc> Bike: people run honeypot servers and make recordings of people trying to attack them
00:38:40 <kmc> some of them are pretty funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw
00:39:18 <kmc> http://downgoat.net/2013/04/25/the-story-about-some-very-bad-hackers/
00:39:45 <Fiora> "sudo: command not found" xD
00:41:13 <pikhq> kmc: Oh my goodness this video.
00:41:16 <Bike> yeah i've seenthose
00:41:30 <kmc> oh I guess that's a "hiding shit" directory
00:41:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:41:35 <kmc> but doesn't exist :)
00:41:37 <Fiora> "maybe perl will work this time!"
00:41:38 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgebuntu.
00:41:55 <pikhq> I love how utterly ignorant this "hacker" apparently is.
00:42:05 <Sgebuntu> Was so frustrated until realizing I forgot to connect to wifi
00:42:10 <pikhq> It's like they got told a couple recipes for hacking Unix boxen and then fucked it up.
00:42:18 <Bike> script kiddies, as they say
00:42:42 <Bike> this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJagxe-Gvpw
00:42:43 <pikhq> "Maybe /var/spool/sambda will exist *now*!"
00:43:14 <Fiora> that was kind of amazingly bad
00:43:27 <Fiora> I wonder why they try to use /var/spool/samba
00:44:09 <kmc> maybe it was the cwd of the samba process they exploited
00:44:40 <Bike> it takes perseverence to go past no sudo
00:45:17 <Bike> lol, spool appearing
00:45:33 <pikhq> Bike: They were root!
00:46:18 <Bike> shit i wish i could download SP3 that fast
00:48:37 * Bike looks at "7202 B/s", sobs
00:50:12 <Fiora> kmc: ohhh. so they exploited a process to get on the server, only to find themselves in a honeypot?
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01:27:03 <kmc> Fiora: i don't know, but it seems likely
01:30:06 <kmc> gotta work up the nerve to hit 'send' on these job emails
01:30:10 <kmc> it's scary :/
01:32:35 <Fiora> sending important emails is scary, I really often end up using the undo button like 5 times in a row before I've nerve-wracked myself into believing it's okay
01:32:39 <Fiora> (undo send is wonderful though)
01:35:20 <kmc> does it just insert a delay before actually sending the email?
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01:35:51 <Fiora> it has saved me from soooo much embarrassment probably
01:35:55 <kmc> i appreciated amazon 1-click more once I realized it works like that
01:36:03 <kmc> you have 30 minutes to cancel or modify the order
01:36:08 <Fiora> ooooh. I had no idea
01:36:20 <pikhq> IIRC it's a 30 second delay.
01:36:23 <Fiora> that's really nice. I think I'm less afraid to use one-click one
01:36:36 <pikhq> Assumption being that 30 seconds is close enough to instant.
01:36:37 <kmc> pikhq: really?
01:36:43 <pikhq> kmc: That's for Gmail.
01:36:58 <pikhq> I didn't know about Amazon's thing.
01:37:00 <kmc> yeah one click + amazon prime is a pretty potent combination
01:37:01 <coppro> undo send is the best feature
01:37:12 <coppro> NihilistDandy: it's a lab feature
01:37:15 <Fiora> it's a google labs feature thing
01:37:17 <Fiora> you can set the delay, I think?
01:37:30 <kmc> i have previously used the trick of not filling in the recipient address until you're really ready to send
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01:50:06 <Sgebuntu> Good idea or bad idea: Just installing 13.04 over my existing Kubuntu install
02:01:44 <coppro> if you have separate /home, good idea
02:03:29 <Sgebuntu> Would that be reasonably easy to do though?
02:06:05 <kmc> do you have backups
02:06:07 <Sgebuntu> It seems to be encrypted... does that imply separate mount?
02:07:55 <kmc> the encrypted file may still be stored on the same partition as everything else
02:07:59 <kmc> just make backups
02:08:04 <kmc> you need backups anyway
02:08:28 <kmc> some storage device?
02:08:47 <kmc> how much irreplaceable personal data do you have?
02:09:05 <kmc> i don't have very much, since most of the stuff I make is text and I don't have many photos or videos
02:10:20 <Sgebuntu> Quite a bit, but not in /home particularly
02:10:42 <Sgebuntu> Losing irreplaceable data has been a bit of a fact of life for me :(
02:10:58 <Sgebuntu> I think there's some on a broken HD I have lying around somewhere
02:11:58 <kmc> buhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
02:12:18 * kmc is still scared of sending these emails
02:20:27 <pikhq> Sounds like anxiety.
02:21:12 <Jafet> It's ok, just wait until you run out of money
02:21:18 <Jafet> Stuff works out naturally
02:29:48 <kmc> fortunately that will take quite a while
02:29:57 <kmc> but I don't want to sit around doing nothing for an extended period of time
02:30:01 <kmc> i've done enough of that
02:31:42 <Sgebuntu> I just bought cereal online, not because I needed more cereal, but because I've heard good things about this cereal from a place that reviewed another cereal that people love
02:32:03 <Sgebuntu> (As in not sane, not as in angry)
02:32:17 <mnoqy> was it http://www.cerealmarshmallows.com/
02:40:45 <Bike> fuckin capitalist
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03:13:14 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? http://ifwiki.org/index.php/Cruelty_scale
03:13:39 <Sgebuntu> The alarm clock website I use seems to think it's 3:13 AM.
03:13:51 <Bike> seems alright to me
03:13:56 <kmc> your only solution is to move 4 time zones over
03:14:23 <Bike> to newfoundland!
03:14:53 <Bike> actually wait is sgeo in asia or...i'mconfused now
03:16:17 <kmc> i thought Long Island, NY
03:16:23 <kmc> long island is long
03:16:27 <kmc> but not 4 time zones long :'(
03:19:04 <kmc> unsigned long cat
03:39:14 <Sgebuntu> Dear System clock: Fuck you so very much
03:50:01 <kmc> yay i got over my fear and sent 3 job applications
03:50:08 <kmc> now it's time for much drinking
03:52:30 <olsner> wow, are you getting 3 jobs!
03:52:59 <Bike> hypercapitalist
03:53:52 <kmc> i know right
03:53:56 <kmc> thanks Fiora :)
03:57:37 <kmc> Jafet: maybe "bougiegrammer"
03:57:50 <kmc> but that makes me think of... bougie grammer
03:58:21 <kmc> "Téodor, when you talk that way, I feel like I'm sitting on the nozzle of a big metal tank that says YALE."
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04:14:57 <NihilistDandy> The comprehensive Achewood text archive is unbelievably helpful
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04:21:38 * Sgebuntu wonders if the single threat ClamAV has found so far might just be something downloaded out of curiousity but otherwise inactive
04:21:59 <Sgebuntu> Not sure whether to hope so or not. If not, then I can blame all my Windows problems on it...
04:37:32 <Sgebuntu> No. Maybe when the scan is done.
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05:29:06 <kmc> NihilistDandy: yes
05:29:12 <kmc> it is helpful
05:29:52 <NihilistDandy> I should write a bot that only knows lines from Achewood
05:29:57 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_97q16TFxk they're making an Achewood TV show
05:32:28 <kmc> i think this test footage is kind of off, but I'm hopeful it will become a good show
05:33:02 <kmc> i think the strip has pretty much run its course and so I'm excited to see it go in new directions
05:40:14 <madb4rd> nice paper: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/456444_4106885718450_1465379536_o.jpg
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05:41:34 <kmc> note that Beef is voiced by Chris Onstad in that video
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06:20:11 <zzo38> It could probably be improved by removing "fucking" and placing each sentence on its own line.
06:20:41 <zzo38> And perhaps even numbering them or bullet point
06:23:40 <Bike> that was a strange zzoism when i forgot the context
06:25:16 <zzo38> Except noncommutative logic, I suppose.
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06:30:13 <hagb4rd|tempsane> also: we need the americans to read the whole thing. the fucking works kind of like a fnord: disarming some auth-sub-routine-filters which allows direct inception on the lower levels of human perception
06:32:50 <hagb4rd|tempsane> i remember beeing there for the first time. almost intuitive, i pressed ALT+A, and there it was.. a tiny little fnord in that corner
06:33:44 <kmc> "The mammals include the largest animals on the planet... as well as some of the most intelligent"
06:34:55 <Bike> corvids and cephalopods, man
06:34:59 <Bike> you know the score
06:35:14 <hagb4rd|tempsane> aw beeing where? i meant the RAW website..somehow i dropped that sorry
06:35:19 <kmc> Are You Smarter Than A Cephalopod, coming this fall on NBC
06:35:54 <Bike> oh, and parrots. i forget whatever the sciency name for parrots is
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06:36:09 <kmc> pretty sure it's parrotiae
06:36:14 <kmc> (n.b.: not really)
06:36:28 <kmc> psittaciformes now you know
06:36:32 <pikhq_> zzo38: Just removing "fucking" and placing each sentence on its own line would work.
06:36:32 <Fiora> kmc: they can have like, a locking mechanism and see whether the people or the cuttlefish can figure it out first
06:36:44 <Bike> it's amazing how many ways i'd pronounce that wrong
06:36:44 <Fiora> tonight at 9, on FOX
06:36:46 <pikhq_> Particularly given that that's in Helvetica.
06:37:12 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, you don't need to do the others, but it will make it a bit nicer, at least, *maybe*.
06:37:21 <pikhq_> I don't think they would.
06:37:42 <Bike> parrots know like, sarcasm and stuff
06:37:45 <Bike> ready for irc, imo
06:37:46 <pikhq_> Doesn't fit too well with the whole Swiss style aesthetic, which is really what you should target when using Helvetica.
06:40:26 <kmc> "You're naïve! Perfect Swiss men probably account for under one ten-millionth of a percent of worldwide joint sales!"
06:41:38 <mnoqy> perfect swiss men??? joint sales??????????
06:41:46 <Bike> is there a german version of smoke two joints
06:41:50 <Bike> if not there really should be
06:42:11 <mnoqy> rauchen zwei Gelenken
06:42:23 <pikhq_> Geschmoken zwei Jointzen
06:42:30 <Bike> where does europe even get its weed
06:42:30 <kmc> i think pikhq_ has it
06:42:42 <Bike> i bet it's finland
06:42:43 <kmc> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ever hear of a place called HOLLAND
06:42:58 <Bike> well do they grow it there
06:43:15 <Bike> «According to The Toyes, "one fine fall day on a small island" of Oahu in Hawaii, two of the band members, Jim and Sandy, were sitting under a large banyan tree on Kuhio Beach, "tokin' on some sweet bud & jammin' on a rootsy reggae funky town"» is this real
06:43:17 <kmc> that said I hear much of the weed in the UK is horrible "soapbar hash"
06:43:26 <mnoqy> man i know like nothing about this stuff how can everyone be so knowledgable
06:43:29 <kmc> smoke two articulations
06:43:30 <pikhq_> The tulips are just a cover.
06:43:32 <Bike> does that mean it's cut with soap, or something more creative
06:43:52 <pikhq_> mnoqy: The secret is I pretend.
06:44:11 <Bike> oh shit,oh shit, holland is only sort of the same thing as the netherlands??
06:44:14 <Bike> fuck that country
06:44:25 <kmc> i assume it's a province or whatever
06:44:39 <pikhq_> It's like England vs. the UK or some such.
06:44:43 <Bike> "Holland is a region and former province in the western part of the Netherlands. The term Holland is also frequently used as a pars pro toto to refer to the whole of the Netherlands. This usage is generally accepted, but disliked by part of the Dutch population, especially in the other parts of the Netherlands"
06:44:48 <Bike> fuck the world
06:44:54 <mnoqy> hm is soapbar hash where you put the hash in a bar of soap like those little plastic dinosaurs and stuff
06:45:05 <pikhq_> I dunno, the world doesn't look fuckable.
06:45:12 <kmc> isn't the set of dutch people not living in holland a set of measure zero
06:45:17 <mnoqy> you know, the little plastic dinosaurs you put in the soap so when you use the soap you rub yourself with the dinosaur
06:45:22 <fizzie> Just call it "the nether regions".
06:45:22 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holland_position.svg !!!!!
06:45:26 <kmc> give me a hole big enough and i will fuck the whole world
06:45:30 <Bike> also: sex joke
06:45:31 <kmc> -- newton or someone
06:45:35 <mnoqy> hagb4rd|tempsane: thanks
06:45:42 <kmc> sex joke: "holland position"
06:45:51 <Bike> the joke is holland,
06:45:59 <Bike> hagb4rd|tempsane: damn your multilingualism!!
06:46:21 <mnoqy> time to figure out what i ~actually~ said
06:46:23 <pikhq_> Alas, I don't speak German, I speak fake German.
06:46:29 <Bike> i thought that wasmore of a creole
06:46:31 <pikhq_> I also speak Swedish Chef.
06:46:34 <Bike> or a uh... a word better than creole
06:48:14 <kmc> if holland is so great then why is the Noord/Zuid Line still under construction???? checkmate
06:48:23 <kmc> seriously though Amsterdam is great and I would love to live there
06:48:54 <Bike> wtf, the netherlands had to declare independence from spain
06:48:58 <Bike> how is european history even possible
06:50:05 <hagb4rd|tempsane> mnoqy: http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&search=gelenk#/search=joint&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on
06:50:33 <kmc> that's why the Dutch version of Santa Claus is from Spain and if you're bad then Santa's friend Black Pete will haul you off to Spain
06:50:35 <hagb4rd|tempsane> joint is like 8 words in german with completely different meaning
06:50:43 <kmc> true story
06:51:02 <mnoqy> yet it somehow manages not actually to mean joint
06:51:03 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sintenpiet.jpg
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06:52:18 <mnoqy> Controversial practices include holiday revellers blackening their faces and wearing afro wigs, gold jewelry and bright red lipstick,[8] and walking the streets throwing candy to passers-by.
06:53:09 <mnoqy> As an experiment in 2006, the NPS (en: Dutch Programme Foundation) replaced the black Pieten with rainbow-colored Pieten but reverted the characters back to the traditional all-black makeup a year later.
06:53:20 <mnoqy> what a good tradition
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06:53:36 <kmc> also NL used to be a republic but Napoleon installed his brother as king or something
06:53:54 <Bike> well, i mean, napoleon
06:54:05 <Bike> i figger he just fucked up all of europe forever, that's not hard to undersatnd
06:54:54 <kmc> western europe at least
06:55:15 <Bike> eastern europe was already fucked up
06:55:27 <Bike> is poland part of eastern europe i forget
06:56:16 <kmc> russia invades, now you have two problems
06:56:49 <Bike> i mean like, during the deluge (it's actually called the deluge) poland lost almost half its population
06:56:59 <Bike> like what's even up with that, europe.
06:57:07 <mnoqy> history sounds crazy man
06:57:50 <Bike> hagb4rd|tempsane: the swedeish invasion of poland in the 1600s
06:58:28 <Bike> Potop_szwedzki
06:58:32 <Bike> i assume that means 'swedish flood'
07:00:04 <kmc> krakow is a nice city
07:00:15 <Bike> poland didn't exist in like the 19th century right
07:01:20 <Bike> that's a lot of centuries to stop existingand then unstop later, imo
07:03:26 <hagb4rd|tempsane> well true.. but its people never stopped fighting for its sovereignity
07:03:29 <kmc> Poland: it comes and goes
07:04:25 <hagb4rd|tempsane> actually the first versa in the antem is like 'poland is not lost, as long as we live'
07:04:55 <kmc> "Polonium may be the first element named to highlight a political controversy"
07:05:18 <hagb4rd|tempsane> i have german and polish roots.. and for that reason i am a citizen of earth
07:05:20 <Bike> stunning political commentary from the physics world *nukes idaho*
07:07:02 <Bike> they got curie's daughter, who also got a nobel
07:07:05 <Bike> so i'd say that worked out
07:09:10 <Bike> Curie named polonium in the late 1800s, when Poland iddn't exist.
07:10:02 <Bike> kmc was quoting wikipedia.
07:10:44 <Bike> It was Curie's hope that naming the element after her native land would publicize its lack of independence. ( Kabzinska, K. (1998). "Chemical and Polish aspects of polonium and radium discovery". Przemysl Chemiczny 77 (3): 104–107.)
07:11:09 <Bike> (chemical and polish)
07:12:04 <mnoqy> a great gift for both chemists and.............polishsts?????
07:12:20 <hagb4rd|tempsane> well the french somehow understood the beauty in the polish culture
07:14:52 <hagb4rd|tempsane> the pope missed ranking by a few credits (sorry pope..maybe next time :P)
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07:16:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammal_Diversity_2011.png
07:17:13 <Bike> kmc: wikipedia's little tilings are great
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07:17:25 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Leonid_Brezhnev_and_Richard_Nixon_talks_in_1973_cropped.JPG mammal diversity
07:18:03 <Bike> this one has a pangolin in it
07:18:07 <Bike> so it's basically the best?
07:18:39 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screaming_hairy_armadillo
07:20:30 <Bike> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notoryctes_typhlops.jpg what a great animal
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07:33:25 <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"?
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07:58:27 <kmc> what's a ringed category
08:04:54 <zzo38> It is just a word I made up, but what I mean is that there is an Abelian group over each hom-set, and that the composition of morphisms distributes over this group.
08:08:43 <zzo38> I don't know if it has a different name.
08:13:12 <kmc> that seems like an ok name
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08:21:55 <kmc> i want a god who stays dead, not plays dead
08:22:02 <kmc> i, even i, can play dead
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08:27:21 <kmc> in this business you're either a one or a zero, alive or dead
08:28:16 <Koen_> what about zombies
08:28:29 <Jafet> Book of Revelations: the original zombie apocalypse
08:31:47 <Jafet> legolas by laura http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMbjK1m6alg
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09:08:48 <fizzie> Is a pineapple a kind of an apple?
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09:47:49 <Jafet> It's a kind of pin
10:19:43 <nortti> ``You see, the ancient legend says that before the universe was compiled, the creator deity pondered for a spell, and then on the first day said Let there be parentheses! and he saw they were good. Then on the second day he said Let code be data and data be code and there was much rejoicing. Then on the third day he hacked up a meta-programming macro, and fucked off for the rest of the week as the universe generated itself.''
10:19:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `You: not found
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11:28:10 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy I forgot what the amazing discovery was. But it was good.
11:31:49 <ion> My 4-year-old nephew managed to crash mosh-client when i let him type into cat.
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12:59:51 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/WYhA OH NO
13:10:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ffHJ OH YES
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13:57:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan i didn't ACTUALLY use pidgin
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15:43:06 <Taneb> Anyone else watching Vicious?
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15:53:37 <Gregor> Check out my SWEEEEET vanity hostname.
15:57:02 <Gregor> Since I know I'm not getting libc.so now (sigh...) I'm thinking of switching stock-and-barrel to libdl.so.
15:59:36 <ThatOtherPerson> And they don't even have the decency to make it resolve to somewhere
16:02:11 <Gregor> <ThatOtherPerson> And they don't even have the decency to make it resolve to somewhere // This is the most painful part :(
16:02:20 <Gregor> I'd even be happier with a generic "this domain squatted" site.
16:02:27 <Gregor> I wouldn't be HAPPY, but I'd be happier.
16:02:33 <Gregor> The owner never responded to my emails either *sigh*
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16:10:17 <HackEgo> aah ambiguous acronym here
16:10:29 <lambdabot> Title: AAH.co.uk AAH Pharmaceuticals | AAH
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16:36:43 <elliott> @tell ais523 it seems lots of spam accounts are still editing, but never getting far enough to trigger the block
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17:35:44 <boily> but then you'd find a bug in the bug killing system.
17:35:45 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: Is this still about the economy simulation?
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17:40:00 <oerjan> funny, webchat doesn't do tab completion of nicks after /msg
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17:45:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "topic", "on", and "always" | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:48:48 <oerjan> Dies war ein Test der Grammatikkorrektursystem.
17:50:30 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic, for some values of "#esoteric", "is", and "on" | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:51:00 <oerjan> (yes, the german has incorrect grammar. is there a problem?)
17:56:36 <oerjan> <boily> (AAAAAAAAAAAAH! fungot has a twilight style! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!) <-- i am concluding you find this more disturbing than the lovecraft one.
17:56:36 <fungot> oerjan: the peasants had fled and which now sheltered the laborers from the north curse and whine, and the
17:57:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:58:10 <boily> oerjan: no trouble with the lovecraft style.
17:58:36 <oerjan> (twist: fungot actually was on the lovecraft style at the time of your panic.)
17:58:38 <fungot> oerjan: such stupendous ruin only chaos dwelt, and where even the most callous of the other fnord. but whip a cat and watch it glare and move backward hissing in outraged dignity and self-respect! one more blow, and it is this plan which we could neither see nor definitely place. as we did so we saw that real source, we entered an archway from which much debris had been fnord by nameless workmen in that horrible gulf rent out o
18:00:16 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: the readme doesn't really have a lot of things
18:00:36 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: that is because the emulator is nowhere near finished
18:01:03 <AnotherTest> oh, I was thinking "he's trying to simulate the galaxy" for a second
18:02:21 <AnotherTest> It's a shame I'm so much of a high-level noob
18:02:53 <boily> oerjan: but, but... it really sounded like twilight!
18:02:54 <ThatOtherPerson> I am for the most part as well, but the DCPU is really pretty simple
18:04:15 <AnotherTest> but currently I'm writing some UML generating tool because cpp2dia sucks
18:04:53 <fizzie> There's a Twilight style in fungot?
18:04:54 <fungot> fizzie: a sudden fnord of the complex key became necessary. lunch and dinner were brought him, but he said the bad thing about it.
18:05:20 <fizzie> Oh no, he said the bad thing about it.
18:05:40 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: What eldritch things should be the fate of all bugs?
18:05:40 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: however, as great a calamity as was feared. carter's personality is gaining in volume... the room rings with demoniacal fnord fnord, and from some of the
18:05:56 <fizzie> I don't know how one measures the volume of a personality.
18:06:21 <AnotherTest> fungot is weird. his personality is weird too.. we should measure its volume...
18:06:22 <fungot> AnotherTest: walter brown is missing fnord been seen loafing around any of his other apparel had vanished with his recovery, and my later panic flight, burned up a perilous amount of air. tomorrow i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles and have to take fnord when it thunders. the thing had had only one visit from edward, when he showed that ' ghoul feeding' was a tremendous achievement.
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18:06:52 <AnotherTest> "i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles" this is unsettling
18:06:57 <fizzie> "tomorrow i will reduce physical exertion to the barest minimum until i meet the reptiles and have to take fnord when it thunders." I should say that to someone.
18:07:33 <AnotherTest> fungot: can you please clarify what you're going to do tomorrow?
18:07:34 <fungot> AnotherTest: fnord, in the absence of form by a species of pictorial memory whereby his face appeared to me was not the secret that was never spoken aloud, only whispered. the count died without utterance, and was heard to cry out. no watcher can ever forget that sight, and ammi turned away from us, as to only a few moments he regretted his thoughtless haste, and his visits were becoming fewer and fewer. when school closed the
18:08:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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18:08:28 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: apparently that's just a placeholder for when it doesn't know anything better to say
18:08:28 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:08:45 <Jafet> The bite-covered fungot rises from the dead
18:08:45 <fungot> Jafet: anhur: an egyptian god of craftsmen. he hated the other gods judged mjollnir the winner of the cakes and looked at the entrance.
18:08:49 <fizzie> It's one of the styles trained both (a) with replacing all words that occur only once with the unknown-word token, and (b) without pruning n-grams that contain OOV words.
18:09:11 <fizzie> (And therefore it needs to say *something* when the babble-generation produces the unknown-word token.)
18:09:41 <fizzie> "Mjolnir, the winner of the cakes".
18:10:10 <AnotherTest> It doesn't have the classic Shakespeare style :(
18:10:36 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
18:10:51 <fungot> AnotherTest: scena tertius. scena prima. were i a man, there to dispose this treasure in mine armes: then, if you had, who takes it by sovereignty of nature.
18:10:52 <fizzie> I... may have abbreviated that one a bit too much.
18:11:26 <AnotherTest> fungot: Willt thou draw near the nature of the gods?
18:11:27 <fungot> AnotherTest: queen. then i am not lisio, nor a man cannot make him giue ground: and more it would content me to have her name fnord all her deserving is a reserved honesty, and fnord of steele, you that have seene them, what they shall doe with this wicked caitiffe? esc. why thou globe of sinfull continents, what a slug is hastings, that he has taken their greatest commander; and that with speed; i cannot sigh thus fnord but wh
18:11:31 <fizzie> fungot: Did Shakespeare write oft of fnords?
18:11:32 <fungot> fizzie: pompey. thou hast seene these signes, they are both hang'd; and so would do, were he heere, or at least strangely neglected? when did he regard the stamp of merit! o, and i sheepe?
18:12:46 <fungot> AnotherTest: fa. he is very sicke, since i have found great love amongst them. o, fellow, fellow, thou troublest me.
18:12:47 <oerjan> to fnord, perchance to dream
18:13:18 <fungot> AnotherTest: iu. what is't to leaue betimes? enter king, queene, aumerle, bushy, green. servant. who shall say me nay: pauca verba. away, with the romanes: at another caesar, lepidus, anthony, enobarbus, when antony found julius caesar dead, he will not heare
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18:24:33 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"? <-- it's called an abelian category, and yes.
18:29:05 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 Or the weaker notion of preadditive category.
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18:54:05 <kmc> prize for macro abuse goes to http://libcello.org/
18:54:43 <Taneb> when did I say that
18:55:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: you didn't say that, I was just checking to see if you were asquare
18:56:03 <Bike> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by Haskell, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by Python and Obj-C.
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18:57:26 <kmc> dynamically typed C, with type classes
18:57:39 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: the DCPU is supposed to have 100,000 cycles a second, right?
18:57:39 <elliott> this doesn't seem to be real typeclasses
18:57:54 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: no idea, ask in #0x10c-dev
18:57:57 <ThatOtherPerson> or am I confused after several months of not doing DCPU stuff
18:59:25 <elliott> I say we can build more or less anything into our runtime system but Garbage collection is just one step too far. The dynamic and complex systems that run garbage collectors just introduce too many hidden operations into a language. Like adding the type at the beginning of a struct, C does its best to disallow any hidden costs. And GC is all or nothing. Even the tiniest memory leak is unacceptable.
18:59:39 <Jafet> `run echo 'The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.' | rainwords > wisdom/cello
18:59:46 <zzo38> O, it is called abelian category. Wikipedia describes abelian category in a more complicated way than what I meant by a ringed category.
18:59:47 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:59:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 35m 17s ago: <zzo38> Do matrices form a "ringed category"? <-- it's called an abelian category, and yes.
18:59:51 <lambdabot> oerjan said 30m 45s ago: Or the weaker notion of preadditive category.
19:01:03 <zzo38> I do mean "all hom-sets are abelian groups" but I also mean the distributive law.
19:02:23 <Bike> So is anyone good at grothendieck
19:02:26 <Bike> fiber bundles 'n' shit
19:08:16 <elliott> are you studying fiber bundles in horses
19:08:38 <kmc> Horse_efibers
19:08:57 <pikhq_> Good god, and I thought I should feel awful for my C.
19:09:56 <Bike> elliott: i'm actually wondering if i can apply optimal control to insects so... almost
19:14:04 <kmc> anyone start working on an Underhanded C Contest entry yet?
19:15:08 <olsner> I've been planning to visit that link in the topic to read what the assignment was
19:16:51 <olsner> fungot: how about you?
19:16:52 <fungot> olsner: enter two gentlemen at seuerall doores. caesar gets money where he looses hearts: lepidus flatters both, of both the sicils, and ierusalem, and hither are they comming to offer you our seruice
19:18:14 <kmc> is that shaxpear
19:18:31 <Bike> @google "ceasar gets money where he looses hearts"
19:18:54 <olsner> why are the v's written with u's?
19:19:20 <ThatOtherPerson> kmc: I started a month or two ago, but that's on the back burner right now
19:21:57 <AnotherTest> I tend to have a similar problem (abandoning stuff very quickly)
19:22:06 <AnotherTest> oh you had to give a presentation about economics?
19:22:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss* wp youtube
19:22:29 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
19:22:55 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: I just tend to be working on several different things at once
19:24:36 <AnotherTest> (well either bad or already done and better)
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20:47:47 <Vorpal> I can't think of any games except Minecraft (and possibly something like Minesweeper) that lets you just resize the window like a normal desktop application. Usually you can only set various fixed resolutions... Why?
20:48:57 <Fiora> I remember seeing a couple that could, but I think it's super hard because they have to reinitialize the directx/opengl context and complicated things
20:49:05 <Fiora> which is why like, changing resolution can take seconds at a time
20:49:12 <zzo38> Text adventure games might be able to, depending on the interpreter.
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20:49:23 <Fiora> (and maybe like, reload/recalculate the whole interface because they have to rescale it?)
20:51:18 <Jafet> 2D games are painstakingly designed by hand in visual studio pro enterprise cloud toolkit forms down to the last pixel
20:51:45 <Fiora> it's the same reason that alt-tab is such a hard thing to get right, I think
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20:51:53 <Bike> do you need to play minecraft in 670×430
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20:52:17 <Fiora> Final Fantasy XI had an odd interesting thing where you could actually set the rendering resolution independent of the display resolution though
20:53:36 <Bike> Fiora: that seems really werid
20:53:39 <elliott> is that meant to be a square
20:53:50 <ion> That’s obviously not a square.
20:53:58 <Fiora> Bike: a friend of mine who was big into it used to use it to implement supersampling
20:54:04 <Fiora> she just set the rendering resolution to ~4K and played at 1080p
20:54:43 <Jafet> Supersampling: because you spent more money on the video card than on the screen
20:56:27 <Vorpal> <Bike> do you need to play minecraft in 670×430 <-- I tend to play it in windowed mode, with whatever size fits a small youtube video below, thus watching video as I play
20:56:30 <Fiora> or the game's just like. kinda old <.<
20:56:46 <Jafet> How is it old if you can't even see the pixels
20:57:08 <Vorpal> <elliott> is that meant to be a square <-- looks like roman numeral to me
20:58:10 <Vorpal> <Fiora> she just set the rendering resolution to ~4K and played at 1080p <-- wait, Final Fantasy XI, which platform is that for?
20:58:23 <Vorpal> I thought Final Fantasy was always console exclusive titles?
20:58:28 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:58:30 <Bike> i think there's a PC version
20:58:31 <ais523> final fantasies have been on PC for ages
20:58:34 <Vorpal> A final fantasy for PC?!
20:58:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: There were a number of FF PC ports.
20:58:39 <ais523> but the console versions are normally better
20:58:40 <Bike> there was an FF7 for PC
20:58:44 <pikhq_> Final Fantasy XI is for the PS2, PC, and Xbox 360.
20:58:54 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 22m 11s ago: it seems lots of spam accounts are still editing, but never getting far enough to trigger the block
20:58:58 <Jafet> Dude Final Fantasy isn't even final
20:59:01 <Jafet> What do you expect
20:59:08 <ais523> Jafet: well it was potentially final at the time
20:59:08 <Bike> antepenultimate fantasy
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20:59:18 <ais523> the company didn't have enough money to produce another game after that one
20:59:20 <pikhq_> And yes, the expansions for it do come out on PS2.
20:59:31 <Vorpal> Jafet, I only ever played Final Fantasy 6, and in zsnes even.
20:59:37 <pikhq_> There's one coming out soon in fact.
20:59:41 <ais523> luckily they managed to keep going using the proceeds from it
20:59:45 <pikhq_> Vorpal: That is one of the better ones.
20:59:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, too many random encounters though
21:00:06 <Vorpal> Not a fan of that mechanic
21:00:33 <pikhq_> You might appreciate XII. Though honestly the gameplay kinda... sucks.
21:00:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I think Chrono Trigger did that much better, what with you seeing the enemies on screen, wasn't just a random battle after n steps
21:00:50 <pikhq_> Its saving grace is you can program the players, so you don't have to play the game. :P
21:00:52 <ion> XII had some good things about it.
21:00:58 <Vorpal> Also Secret of Mana even more so, you could evade there, no turn based battle either
21:01:00 <Bike> XII doesn't have random characters!
21:01:07 <pikhq_> And a lot of other stuff in it was great.
21:01:08 <Bike> perfect for vorpal
21:01:12 <ion> I mean, XIII
21:01:21 <Vorpal> is that the terrible one?
21:01:24 <pikhq_> It's just, the combat was excruciating.
21:01:29 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, XIII is the terrible one.
21:01:35 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XIII_%28video_game%29
21:01:39 <Vorpal> with Lightning or whatever the girl was called
21:01:54 <pikhq_> XII is the one with great bits and a combat system that *clearly* had the game devs hack in a way to make it actually playable.
21:01:55 <Fiora> XIII is the wonderful one
21:01:57 <Jafet> @google Final Fantasy XXX
21:01:58 <lambdabot> http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1655820261
21:02:06 <Bike> what did you expect jafet
21:02:36 <Vorpal> yeah I'm not much of a final fantasy fan, Way too much repetitive grinding in FF VI, and that is the one I played. Great story though.
21:02:48 <pikhq_> People generally play them for the story.
21:02:50 <Vorpal> A well written LP on that would be far superior
21:02:54 <Fiora> there's a lot better RPG series IMO, yeah
21:03:01 <Fiora> final fantasy gets a lot of attention for some reason but it's not even the most popular series
21:03:12 <pikhq_> It's the best known series.
21:03:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, Planescape: Torment (not a series though). Lousy combat though.
21:03:20 <pikhq_> Due to being many people's introduction to the genre.
21:03:21 <Fiora> like, dragon quest is a lot more popular
21:03:30 <Vorpal> but man, Ps:T story. Nothing beats it.
21:03:33 <ais523> Vorpal: Planescape: Torment effectively belongs to the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series
21:03:39 <ais523> although it's quite different in nature to those other games
21:03:51 <Vorpal> ais523, eh, those are Forgotten Realm. Not Planescape
21:03:55 <Fiora> and there's also Tales and Ys and Golden Sun and Star Ocean
21:03:57 <Vorpal> Quite a different setting.
21:03:57 <Jafet> The combat is lousy for a reason
21:04:06 <ais523> and actually, there's a noticeable difference between JRPGs like Final Fantasy and WRPGs like Baldur's Gate
21:04:14 <Vorpal> Jafet, because Infinity Engine? Also some story reasons I guess.
21:04:15 <Bike> "unlike the final fantasy games, which sharea unified world"
21:04:32 <Bike> clearly the combat is terrible to make a deep point about pacifism
21:04:50 <Fiora> "share a unified world" pffffff
21:04:56 <ais523> but yeah, final fantasy games are pretty inconsistent setting-wise
21:04:58 <pikhq_> ais523: Yup. They're rather different genres, though coming from the same place.
21:05:07 <ais523> even FFXI and FFTA, which are meant to share a setting, have noticeable differences in their settings
21:05:08 <Vorpal> The way to make a good game about pacifism is to make a stealth game.
21:05:11 <pikhq_> Both originate as "D&D on computers!"
21:05:23 <Bike> i've read a few text files claiming to have unified the final fantasy plots
21:05:23 <Fiora> final fantasy's "thing" is that the game reinvents itself each game, instead of staying the same
21:05:27 <Fiora> (which can be both good and bad of course <.<)
21:05:29 <Bike> major waste of my time lemme tell you
21:05:29 <ais523> that was a misleading typo
21:05:41 <pikhq_> Bike: They've got highly inconsistent metaphysics.
21:05:50 <ais523> Bike: that made me literally facepalm for the first time in months
21:06:17 <ais523> Bike: you know what the word "facepalm" actually means, right? as in, you put your face in your palm in disbelief?
21:06:18 <pikhq_> I mean, one of the games literally has souls you can see when someone dies.
21:06:20 <Bike> pikhq_: Sin was made of a bunch of melted Vivis or something
21:06:25 <Vorpal> Anyway i never really liked the (admittedly few) JRPGs I played.
21:06:26 <Bike> ais523: in response to what
21:06:33 <ais523> someone trying to unify final fantasy plots
21:06:40 <Vorpal> While the story can be good, often the combat is pretty bad.
21:06:43 <Jafet> The way to make a good game about pacifism is to make it so that you can't hurt anything
21:06:47 <Bike> pikhq_: that's the level of discourse we're dealing with here
21:06:51 <Vorpal> Not much of a fan of turn based combat.
21:06:58 <Fiora> Vorpal: most JRPGs don't even have turn based combat...
21:06:58 <Vorpal> And definitely not a random encounter fan.
21:07:01 <ais523> I really like turn based combat
21:07:03 <Jafet> and maybe to make you want to hurt something (not necessarily in the game)
21:07:03 <Bike> ais523: well,nintendo released some semiofficial timeline of zelda or sth
21:07:06 <Fiora> and random encounters are largely rare nowadays
21:07:11 <ais523> anyway you might like WRPGs, they rarely have random encounters
21:07:18 <Vorpal> Fiora, well I mostly played ones from the SNES era, that either had turn based or pseudo-turn based
21:07:28 <Jafet> Timeline of zelda sounds like an oxymoron
21:07:29 <boily> pseudo-turn based?
21:07:32 <Fiora> Star Ocean I think was the only SNES game that had action combat
21:07:33 <ais523> and the combat is often at least vaguely realtime, although you're still just entering commands and waiting for the characters to cary them out
21:07:37 <Fiora> that I can think of
21:07:38 <pikhq_> boily: Probably referring to ATB.
21:07:41 <zzo38> The closest computer games to D&D and so on are probably the text adventure games.
21:07:42 <Vorpal> boily, like, if you wait to long you miss your chance
21:07:45 <boily> pikhq_: oh, right.
21:07:48 <Fiora> Star Ocean was really late in the SNES's life though
21:07:52 <ais523> alternatively… there's the mario&luigi series
21:07:52 <Fiora> it actually had voiced attacks and things
21:07:56 <Vorpal> boily, iirc Chrono Trigger was like that
21:07:57 <Bike> i had no idea there was a star ocean for snes
21:07:59 <pikhq_> FF9 was the last one using straight ATB...
21:08:02 <Fiora> the first star ocean was a snes game
21:08:06 <pikhq_> Bike: It didn't get a US release.
21:08:06 <Fiora> second was... PS1 I think
21:08:15 <boily> Vorpal: meh. I like to ponder, think, reflect, wait, stress and cogitate.
21:08:15 <Fiora> yeah, the remake was released in the US though, it's on PSP along with the second game.
21:08:23 <Fiora> the remake's really good. they went and fully voiced the whole game.
21:08:23 <Bike> then again there was a 3d star fox for snes too
21:08:23 <pikhq_> And there's a fan translation.
21:08:27 <Bike> i don'tknow a lot of things
21:08:35 <Fiora> and added boatloads of stuff
21:08:35 <pikhq_> It was voiced on the SNES. :)
21:08:37 <Vorpal> boily, I played good turn based games. They were not JRPGs though.
21:08:41 <Fiora> only the combat had voices, I think?
21:08:43 <Fiora> not the rest of the game
21:08:55 <Fiora> oh, the anime cutscenes
21:08:56 <Bike> SNES carts were big enough for that?
21:09:07 <boily> Vorpal: like civilization?
21:09:09 <Fiora> the PSP version has like, hours and hours of voiced content though
21:09:15 <Vorpal> boily, sure that works yes
21:09:16 <pikhq_> Bike: This was a particularly insane SNES cart.
21:09:21 <fizzie> The new Neverwinter MMO has some sort of "set rendering resolution independently of screen resolution" thing, except it's for scaling it down for speed.
21:09:26 <Vorpal> boily, anyway, a great story on it's own doesn't cut it for me. I need solid gameplay and I'm not a fan of grinding or repetition.
21:09:33 <pikhq_> Bike: It actually had a hardware decompressor for all its content.
21:09:38 <Fiora> fizzie: I think that's super common nowadays, like, most PS3 games don't actually render at 720p even
21:09:40 <Bike> pikhq_: so like star fox 2, sweet
21:09:48 <pikhq_> No. Star Fox 2 had a coprocessor.
21:09:50 <Vorpal> boily, Don't put in filler to make a game longer, either add more interesting stuff, or just make the experience shorter
21:09:58 <Bike> coprocessor, decompressor, sameshit
21:10:06 <Fiora> I don't think JRPGs are particularly bad on the filler side
21:10:06 <pikhq_> This was actually a thing that was just on the address bus.
21:10:12 <Fiora> like skyrim was wayyy grindier than any JRPG I have ever played
21:10:35 <Vorpal> Fiora, oh yeah, that is the nature of open world RPGs though
21:10:39 <Fiora> though I guess I've never played SNES-era ones
21:10:50 <pikhq_> Fiora: SNES carts can be pretty freaking crazy though.
21:10:51 <Fiora> I heard it was kind of a lot worse back then <.<
21:11:03 <Vorpal> I did put quite a few hours into Skyrim, but eventually I did get bored. The mods kept me going through quite a bit of it
21:11:09 <boily> Vorpal: that's something I really appreciate from the crawl dev team, for example. I fondly remember Vaults being 8 level deep, but it had to be shortened sooner or later.
21:11:09 <Vorpal> also Skyrim lacks depth.
21:11:11 <shachaf> Fiora: i thought jrpgs were entirely about grinding
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21:11:25 <Fiora> shachaf: cars are also entirely about racing
21:11:26 <FreeFull> NES cards had special chips built in too
21:11:29 <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game.
21:11:32 <zzo38> I don't like the grinding and repetition either, but I have some ideas how to solve (what do will do, depends on the game): Make time limits. Make the respawn to increase the opponent's strength double than it does your own. Make the experience bonus decrease every time until eventually it is negative. There are others too.
21:11:32 <pikhq_> shachaf: That's a common element, not a necessary one.
21:11:53 <Vorpal> Witcher 2, that was a game that did most stuff right. I would say everything, but someone is bound to point out some issue with it that I forgot for the moment.
21:11:54 <pikhq_> FreeFull: The SNES chips go waaay beyond NES mappers or Famicom audio chips.
21:11:58 <fizzie> Fiora: Some of the drop rates in those things have been kind of ludicrous.
21:12:09 <Fiora> zzo38: final fantasy 13 actually levelcapped you heavily to force you to be smart in battles, so you couldn't grind until super late in the game
21:12:34 <pikhq_> FreeFull: You can literally replace the SNES CPU from a cartridge.
21:12:36 <zzo38> Fiora: Levelcaps might help a bit, but I think it is not enough.
21:12:46 <pikhq_> Or a lot of other shit.
21:12:48 <FreeFull> pikhq_: I think some SNES carts had 3D coprocessors?
21:12:55 <Fiora> tales has a built-in difficulty setting you can change at any time, so if you feel like you're too low level you can just lower the difficulty instead, or vice versa
21:12:57 <Bike> yeah, that's starfox
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21:13:25 <Fiora> dragon quest can be pretty grindy though. if you want it to be I guess
21:13:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, there were other co-processors though. I know Super Mario RPG had some sort of co-processor
21:13:31 <pikhq_> FreeFull: That was a general-purpose RISC chip that just happened to be rendering polygons into the system framebuffer.
21:13:34 <Fiora> it has all the super crazy impossible post-game bosses for the grinders XD
21:13:49 <ais523> Fiora: most JRPGs have that
21:14:04 <fizzie> Many games can be pretty grindy if you want to play them a few levels above "normal" levels.
21:14:07 <Bike> what was the FFI one
21:14:07 <zzo38> It may also be possible to make simple cheat codes and/or patches to improve the game to not have grinding, I suppose.
21:14:12 <Bike> warbot or something
21:14:21 <ais523> most JRPGs are completable without grinding, although there are exceptions
21:14:33 <Bike> no idea why they even did that
21:14:39 <Fiora> fizzie: I think the winner in that category has to be disgaea though
21:14:44 <Fiora> (which is a completely wonderful series though)
21:14:50 <ais523> I think every final fantasy game except… 3? can be completed with no leveling up
21:15:07 <ais523> (2 doesn't /have/ levelling up)
21:15:13 <zzo38> I don't mean whether or not you can complete them by grinding; I mean to make it so that you are disadvantaged to grinding!
21:15:34 <pikhq_> FreeFull: That is, the SNES is structured as an asymmetric multiprocessing architecture, with pluggable processors.
21:15:40 <Fiora> atelier has that, I think? if you go out of your way to grind you'll probably make terribly inefficient use of your time because it's a limited-time game
21:15:45 <Fiora> and fighting monsters takes up in-game time
21:15:46 <Vorpal> ais523, I found that FF VI had pretty much forced grinding in the form of random encounters. It punished exploration in dungeons as well, since it happened every nth step (where n varied a bit, but was determined at the end of the previous battle)
21:16:02 <FreeFull> Nowadays it's more worthwile to just stuff as much computing power in the console itself
21:16:08 <Fiora> atelier totori didn't have random encounters either (besides like, very rare ones as special events on the world map?)
21:16:37 <Vorpal> ais523, run from battle? Sure, except not always.
21:16:54 <pikhq_> You can run from pretty much all but boss battles in FF games...
21:17:11 <fizzie> Often you can get the "no random battles" thing, too, though pretty late.
21:17:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, not if you got enemies from either sides in FF VI
21:17:15 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, even in the computer itself you might have multiple processors, though.
21:17:16 <ais523> there's some FF where speedrunners run from every battle
21:17:18 <pikhq_> Oh, right, it *did* that.
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21:17:25 <ais523> because in boss battles it makes your turn come sooner for some bizarre reason
21:17:28 <FreeFull> zzo38: It's not the same though
21:17:34 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I think FFVI is the only one that does that.
21:18:14 <ais523> in Pokémon, there's a consumable that prevents wild encounters from lower-level Pokémon (read: prevents wild encounters) for a while
21:18:25 <fizzie> pikhq_: VII has "pincer attacks" too.
21:18:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I know of that.
21:18:33 <pikhq_> fizzie: I do not remember that at *all*.
21:18:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think that were the ones I mentioned above?
21:19:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: You mentioned them in VI, unless I misread something.
21:20:27 <zzo38> Kirby 1 for GameBoy has terrible scoring, although the scoring can be greatly improved by CHANGING A SINGLE BYTE IN THE ROM. Maybe similar things can be done for other games, such as RPG style games, to improve so is not grinding so much?
21:20:28 <fizzie> http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_Formations says only VI and VII. I don't remember if they affected running in VII.
21:20:54 <pikhq_> Vorpal: For what it's worth, I generally think of grinding as one of the worst features in JRPGs. My basic mindset is that skill should be able to replace levelling to an extent.
21:21:03 <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game.
21:21:10 <pikhq_> This also requires battle systems where skill is actually a factor, and not enough do that.
21:21:16 <fizzie> There's one game where you just spew out gold like some sort of a gold coin fountain when running from battle, I can't recall which.
21:21:20 <boily> (do not press ↑ in IRC. do not press ↑ in IRC.)
21:21:54 <zzo38> You can also make a game where leveling sometimes or always goes backwards.
21:22:35 <ais523> fizzie: Super Mario RPG and its sequels
21:22:43 <ais523> spamming A makes you lose less gold, IIRC
21:22:53 <Jafet> Why are game mechanics still based on tabletop game mechanics anyway
21:22:59 <ais523> in SMRPG, the timing of your button presses affects the damage things do
21:23:04 <pikhq_> Jafet: History, mostly.
21:23:12 <elliott> ais523: they should add something to penalise mashing buttons while trying to catch pokemon
21:23:26 <Fiora> pikhq_: play Ys, Tales, or Star Ocean?
21:23:30 <Bike> how many video games are actually based on tabletop mechanics nowadays
21:23:31 <ais523> it completely ignores input during that time, that's been proven
21:23:42 <pikhq_> Fiora: I have not. Well. Not long.
21:23:49 <Fiora> Ys in particular is murderously difficult
21:23:52 <Bike> i don'tthink even D&D games really do that any more
21:23:52 <elliott> ais523: it's satisfying to mash them
21:23:53 <Fiora> or maybe I am just bad, but
21:23:53 <pikhq_> Computer RPGs literally originate as computer adaptations of D&D.
21:23:55 <Jafet> Bike: any game wit hit points
21:24:04 <zzo38> Another thing to do with Pokemon game, is, make it so that the Game Corner is closed and so that experience from wild Pokemon battles is negative.
21:24:09 <Jafet> Do you walk around in real life with a number on your head
21:24:10 <pikhq_> It's basically a common thing in RPGs.
21:24:22 <Bike> Jafet: so, halo?
21:24:28 <ais523> zzo38: the Game Corner has been removed, as of Black/White
21:24:46 <fizzie> ais523: I think it was Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga that I was thinking of, yes.
21:24:54 <zzo38> (So for positive experience you need trainer battles)
21:24:56 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, that'd work
21:25:12 <ais523> SMRPG sort of forked into the M&L series and the Paper Mario series
21:25:25 <ais523> the main difference is that in Paper Mario, perfect timing means you take a bit less damage, and do a bit more
21:25:26 <elliott> i don't even remember what the game corner is
21:25:37 <Jafet> Bike: Halo has hit points
21:25:40 <Bike> i think it's where you got frustrated at roulette and got a poyrgon?
21:25:47 <ais523> in M&L, perfect timing means you do orders of magnitude more damage, and take no damage, and sometimes damage enemies on their turn
21:26:40 <zzo38> Computer RPG is not really like D&D; text adventure games are more like, I think.
21:26:43 <ais523> elliott: a building in Celadon, Goldenrod, Mauville, Veilstone, that contains slot machines and sometimes roulette tables
21:26:58 <ais523> zzo38: WRPGs tend to have large dialogue trees
21:27:02 <ais523> which are quite like D&D in that respect
21:27:37 <zzo38> ais523: That doesn't really make it all that much, I think
21:27:47 <nooodl_> i'm amazed that you know which four cities had game corners right off the bat
21:27:56 <Bike> text adventures are like D&D in that you get frustrated at the DM's stupid narration a lot, but unlike them in that you can't pay him to shut up with some soda
21:28:17 <zzo38> I never pay the DM to shut up by anything
21:28:21 <fizzie> The Neverwinter MMO I mentioned is "theoretically" based on 4th edition D&D, but it's really not. (E.g. "per-encounter" == thing with a cooldown, "daily" == whenever your action point bar has filled up; and the levels go up to 60. (Not that I know if 4th Ed does that.))
21:28:39 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Vorpal: For what it's worth, I generally think of grinding as one of the worst features in JRPGs. My basic mindset is that skill should be able to replace levelling to an extent. <-- to an extent yes...
21:28:39 <ais523> nooodl_: it took a few seconds to remember
21:28:49 <Vorpal> <boily> Vorpal: a tight experience that keeps you tense all the way is what makes the essence of a great game. <-- yes
21:28:56 <pikhq_> zzo38: They are *mechanically* like them intentionally.
21:29:09 <Vorpal> boily, that is why I like Witcher 2. Also Bastion.
21:29:11 <pikhq_> zzo38: In narrative structure, though, you're right.
21:29:18 <zzo38> I don't really like 4E D&D; I think it mess up a lot of things.
21:29:25 <zzo38> I also don't like "per-encounter" anything.
21:29:25 <Vorpal> boily, both are excellent games, you should try them if you haven't already.
21:29:36 <zzo38> I don't delimit the game into encounters.
21:29:40 <Bike> adopting unicode as the charset of Common was clearly a mistake
21:29:41 <ais523> they should have called D&D 4E something other than D&D
21:29:48 <ais523> and it'd be a lot more popular IMO
21:30:00 <ais523> just like Metroid Fusion should probably have been put into a different game series
21:30:03 <pikhq_> They just need to make AD&D 4.
21:30:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is what many people say.
21:30:10 <Bike> fusion was great :(
21:30:12 <elliott> 4E is probably good because people seem to complain about it a lot
21:30:34 <elliott> are you calling me a nerd for never having played d&d
21:30:38 <fizzie> Bike: Text adventures are like D&D in that you have to word everything *just* the right way, or else the DM just replies "I don't know how to 'word'".
21:30:38 <zzo38> It is also one thing I was designing Icosahedral RPG; in which many things are quite the opposite of 4E D&D. They should call that 4E Advanced D&D.
21:30:54 <Bike> fizzie: exactly
21:30:56 <Bike> elliott: exactly
21:31:14 <Bike> "I attack the gazebo." "I don't see a gazebo here"
21:31:18 <Fiora> elliott: basically anything that upsets grognards is probably a really good thing
21:31:27 <ais523> Pathfinder is pretty good
21:31:39 <ais523> it's basically a third-party attempt to continue D&D 3e (which is open source)
21:32:11 <ais523> Bike: and yeah, my point is that Fusion is a good game, but it's in the wrong series
21:32:21 <boily> Vorpal: I should, but time is more precious than spice mélange right now for me.
21:32:22 <Bike> well it's definitely more linear
21:32:32 <ais523> and so it looks a bit out of place among the other Metroid games
21:32:33 <Bike> that doesn't seem like enough to force a rebrand though
21:32:36 <zzo38> Maybe; but still, I prefer Icosahedral RPG. Icosahedral RPG involves mathematical ring theory, category theory, and so on, too.
21:32:38 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: thanks for the info
21:32:47 <nooodl_> i spent a couple days making a zork speedrun route. looking for parser shortcuts was tons of fun
21:32:49 <ais523> Bike: it's more to do with how the program handles error conditions
21:32:53 <Vorpal> boily, Bastion is pretty short though. You can beat it over a weekend.
21:33:08 <zzo38> Also, level adjustments are now called "pseudolevels" and all kind of creatures have it; not only some.
21:33:11 <Vorpal> boily, excellent story, no filler. Cool narrator.
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21:33:16 <Bike> elliott: metroid fusion, a GBA game about shooting aliens
21:33:16 <zzo38> Do you like this change?
21:33:22 <ais523> Bike: in Super Metroid, if you get to an item early, you get that item
21:33:24 <nooodl_> instead of the infamous "kill troll with sword. kill troll with sword. kill troll with sword." thing, i'd reduced it down to "cut it. g. g."
21:33:34 <fizzie> There was a NPC in Neverwinter lamenting how "in the old days" you could store magical spells in wands and staves, and how it's a shame they don't work like that these days. I assume that's some sort of a 4E joke.
21:33:35 <ais523> in Metroid Fusion, if you get to an item early, it gives you the wrong item or errors out
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21:33:43 <Bike> ais523: ? you can't sequence break in fusion, really?
21:33:48 <Vorpal> boily, it is an isometric action RPG I guess
21:33:54 <ais523> Bike: yep; a few sequence breaks have been found, but the game engine can't handle them
21:33:55 <Bike> i'm clearly not hardcore enough
21:33:58 <ais523> so the only usable ones are "minibreaks"
21:33:58 <zzo38> Another change is feats are earned more often, and ability score increases less often.
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21:34:19 <elliott> sequence breaking is when you're so lazy that you have two breaks in quick succession
21:34:20 <nooodl_> zzo38: how does icosahedral rpg involve CT, that sounds cool
21:34:21 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There was a NPC in Neverwinter lamenting how "in the old days" you could store magical spells in wands and staves, and how it's a shame they don't work like that these days. I assume that's some sort of a 4E joke. <-- in the MMO? In NWN2?
21:34:22 <ais523> there's also one intentional one which is freakishly difficult to pull off, but if you do it, the game basically tells you "well done, now do it properly"
21:34:33 <Vorpal> NWN1 is based on 3.5 iirc
21:34:43 <ais523> and the funny thing is, people have found a sequence-breaking way to pull off that sequence break in an unintended way, which is easier than the intended one
21:34:50 <ais523> Vorpal: it's based on 3.0
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21:34:53 <boily> Vorpal: hm. I think I may be able to find some spare hours out there in the wild. probably in around two or three weeks, after mothers day and 0.12 tournament.
21:35:02 <Bike> ais523: the speedshark thing? that's pretty funny
21:35:16 <ais523> Bike: the Secret Message
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21:35:25 <ais523> the intended way is chaining shinesparks
21:35:34 <Vorpal> boily, Witcher 2, while an excellent high fantasy action RPG with stunning visuals, will take you quite a bit longer though.
21:35:37 <zzo38> Also, alignment for kind of creatures is now "S" (stereotypical; most intelligent creatures, normally 12%), "A" (always; for demons/angels; normally 99.1%), "U" (unaligned; for normal animals), "X" (don't care; for humans, normally 11.111%)
21:35:46 <ais523> the unintended way involves using the game's anti-doppler-effect code to curve an ice missile around a corner, so you can avoid collecting the diffusion missiles
21:35:51 <Bike> those numbers seem pretty arbitrary
21:35:56 <ais523> then you have to go back and get them anyway because the game refuses to let you continue without htem
21:35:57 <zzo38> Spells form a mathematical category.
21:36:08 <Vorpal> boily, oh and I would say that Bastion is somewhat steampunk
21:36:09 <zzo38> Bike: Do you mean my numbers?
21:36:18 <Bike> zzo38: the percentages, yes
21:36:34 <nooodl_> what are the arrows between them?
21:36:35 <ais523> zzo38: you believe 1/3 of all humans are evil?
21:36:51 <zzo38> Bike: Well, they aren't arbitrary; they are carefully calculated. Also, "U" is 100% although it doesnt matter.
21:37:15 <boily> Vorpal: sleep is for wimps. the need to eat is a fallacy of the mind. the urge to play bastion is getting stronger with your compelling arguments.
21:37:17 <zzo38> ais523: Not sure, but I was giving example. In this game it is normally assumed so, though.
21:37:38 <Vorpal> ais523, which game is that, with the sequence break?
21:37:44 <ais523> Vorpal: Metroid Fusion
21:37:50 <zzo38> Also, it can be relative; it is not always absolute; "Detect Evil" and so on are not based on inherent alignments but on circumstances.
21:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, what sort of game is that?
21:38:00 <ais523> you can compare it to Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
21:38:03 <Bike> maybe i should mention i've only played fusion and zero mission (and the original)
21:38:07 <Bike> Vorpal: metroidvania
21:38:08 <Vorpal> ais523, not a 2D metroidvania?
21:38:10 <ais523> which is similarly linear in intent, except sequence breaking actually works
21:38:16 <ais523> Vorpal: Metroid Fusion is a 2D metroidvania
21:38:28 <Vorpal> I only ever played Super Metroid
21:38:32 <nooodl_> ais523: you could say you're evil iff you're in the most evil 1/3 of people
21:38:32 <ais523> in general, you can assume all Metroid games are metroidvanias, even if some are excessively linear
21:38:43 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't there one that is a FPS?
21:38:51 <ais523> Vorpal: the Metroid Prime series are FPSes
21:38:56 <ais523> but nonetheless Metroidvanias
21:39:09 <ais523> Metroid Prime 1 is almost as good as Super Metroid
21:39:18 <nooodl_> sort all living people by alignment, the lowest 1/3 is evil, the highest 1/3 is good hth
21:39:23 <ais523> if you don't mind being spoiled on it (e.g. you never intend to play it), watch a video of someone playing it
21:39:34 <Vorpal> ais523, I got bored with super metroid, trying to find where I was supposed to go next
21:39:49 <ais523> Vorpal: Prime's solution is an optional Hint System
21:39:51 <Vorpal> also not a fan of the SNES controls.
21:39:55 <ais523> which tells you where to go next in the intended sequence of the game
21:40:00 <elliott> Bike: how did you calculate 99.1%
21:40:06 <ais523> which you can turn off if you don't like it
21:40:08 <mnoqy> metroids control too clunkily for me :(
21:40:10 <Vorpal> dpad for shooting isn't all that good IMO
21:40:20 <zzo38> As well as the two axes (L/C and G/E), there is also the prefix, one of those four, followed by the letter for each axis; the letter for each axis can also be "X", however, for example "UNN", "AXE", and "XXX".
21:40:31 <ais523> the original Metroid Prime releases control like Zelda games
21:40:59 <ais523> they got updated rereleases with a second control scheme
21:41:13 <ais523> where holding L would lock the camera to hold your target in the centre of the screen
21:41:20 <Vorpal> ais523, to me FPS is about skilled aiming.
21:41:29 <ais523> but you could aim at other things too
21:41:30 <Vorpal> Which is why FPS on consoles confuse me
21:41:40 <Vorpal> you can't aim well with a game pad
21:41:42 <zzo38> elliott: First I can say how 12% is calculated: It is just because of the dice used. (I wanted to omit the d10 because it isn't Platonic, but it is needed for many things so I didn't.) This means roll the dice d10 and 1 to 9 corresponds to LE to CG (or whatever). For the 99.1%, it is also due to the dice, but this time the listed alignment is almost always selected.
21:41:51 <Vorpal> You really need a mouse for a quick skilled aiming.
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21:41:53 <ais523> Vorpal: well Metroid Prime is a metroidvania
21:42:14 <ais523> yeah but the metroidvania side of things gets more focus
21:42:16 <Vorpal> ais523, also you can't z-target with the bow can you in OOT at least?
21:42:20 <ais523> a lot of 3D platforming, for instance
21:42:30 <ais523> and you can shoot at things
21:42:31 <boily> I always get lost in FPSes.
21:42:33 <ais523> = it's a first person shooter
21:42:39 <ais523> but the game isn't about first person shooting
21:42:45 <Bike> old fpss are the worst for getting lost
21:42:51 <mnoqy> do you get lost irl (maybe only if you're carrying a gun?)
21:42:54 <ais523> and yeah, it has L-targeting
21:42:56 <Vorpal> ais523, 3D platforming in first person tends to be abysmal. Only game I played that I felt did that right was Mirror's Edge.
21:43:02 <Bike> especially when they give you a 2d map of a complicated 3d space uuuuugh
21:43:22 <nooodl_> zzo38: where can i read about this category of spells / icosahedral rpg in general
21:43:26 <ais523> Bike: Metroid Prime gives you a 3D map
21:43:27 <boily> mnoqy: I should try and see if I get lost while carrying a gun.
21:43:30 <ais523> because it has complicated 3D spaces
21:43:32 <zzo38> This alignment prefix is similar to the "always", "usually", "often" in D&D 3.5E, but the standard campaign changes its meaning a lot; if "S" people tend to believe it even though it isn't usually the case!
21:43:38 <Bike> ais523: yeah i've seen it in the third one
21:43:42 <Vorpal> <mnoqy> do you get lost irl (maybe only if you're carrying a gun?) <-- no not really, though I never carry a gun. I don't live in a country where that is legal
21:43:45 <Bike> ais523: i just wanted to complain anonymously about marathon
21:45:14 <Vorpal> ais523, so how did the 3D platforming feel in Metroid Prime?
21:45:32 <zzo38> nooodl_: I don't really have much written on the computer. I can explain other mathematical things about it, though: A "mana" is a multiset of elements taken from {w,u,b,r,g}, and a "multimana" is a multiset of manas. The sum of multimanas is their multiset sum. The product of multimanas is the Cartesian product using the multiset sum as its underlying operation. I also made a partial ordering on them.
21:45:33 <ais523> Vorpal: it looks quite good to me
21:45:39 <ais523> note that I haven't actually played most of the games I know a lot about
21:45:42 <Vorpal> ais523, as good as Mirror's Edge?
21:45:44 <ais523> I just watch a lot of streams and videos
21:45:59 <ais523> I'd say it gives you a bit more control than Mirror's Edge
21:46:29 <ais523> the only time people seem to have difficulty is when they're trying to do glitches
21:46:39 <ais523> especially, ones that rely on the camera being in the wrong place
21:46:43 <Vorpal> Btw I got the latest humble bundle, sadly Costume Quest does not run properly for me on Linux
21:46:49 <ais523> like, you can move a camera into a good place to see the jump
21:46:52 <Vorpal> As in, it draws much larger than the screen
21:46:53 <zzo38> Also, Icosahedral RPG has no default encounter experience, or any "per-encounter" anything. Experience points are assigned by the referee whatever you want; normally story awards.
21:47:01 <Vorpal> and thus I can't see the entire main menu
21:47:03 <ais523> but having the camera stuck behind a wall lets you jump higher, so people get it stuck intentionally
21:47:05 <Vorpal> never seen that before
21:47:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion of all of these kind of ideas (including pseudolevels)?
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21:48:21 <Jafet> Mirror's Edge is really a single player racing game http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FDD2563A3897DC7
21:48:34 <nooodl_> pseudolevels sound like they could just be called levels
21:48:49 <nooodl_> either way i don't know enough about role playing games to really have an opinion
21:49:01 <zzo38> nooodl_: Well, they aren't; they don't do anything levels do other than the experience points.
21:49:56 <zzo38> Also, spells are learned using templates.
21:50:22 <zzo38> The default method of generating ability scores in this game is Goldilock's Method.
21:51:13 <Bike> how was goldilocks as a roleplayer
21:51:37 <Jafet> Somewhere in the middle, I expect
21:53:03 <Vorpal> <Jafet> Mirror's Edge is really a single player racing game http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FDD2563A3897DC7 <-- if you speedrun it yet
21:53:13 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know, but that isn't quite it. It is simply another method for generating ability scores, involving both randomness and choice, in a bit more complicated way than the standard 4d6 drop lowest, and the total almost always makes 74; if it turns out less you get 1 bonus point for every 3 less, but it doesn't happen often.
21:53:21 <nooodl_> every game is really a single player racing game
21:53:24 <Jafet> How else do you play that game
21:53:59 <fizzie> What's that called when you see your dude from behind, like in a third-person thing, but you still have a targeting reticle in the middle of the screen that you use for doing things, and moving the mouse rotates the camera, like in a first-person thing?
21:54:36 <ais523> fizzie: I guess it's still a third-person shooter
21:54:42 <ais523> I've seen a 2D game with those controls
21:54:44 <ais523> and thought of it as a 3PS
21:55:07 <zzo38> The four standard classes are Fighter, Expert, Divine, and Arcane. Fighter is the only combat-oriented class; others are not so good at combat. Arcane is the most complicated class to understand and play, but can interest people who are interested in these kind of things.
21:55:45 <zzo38> (Well, there is also "Commoner", which is simply leveling your racial HD; this is not the same as the D&D "Commoner" class.)
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22:01:41 <Vorpal> <Jafet> How else do you play that game <-- for the story?
22:01:59 <Vorpal> the story is not that good
22:02:09 <zzo38> I do have some things about Icosahedral RPG in a book I have been writing in by hand, though. The "Fundamental Rule" is "There are exceptions to all rules, including this one". Text adventure games are mentioned in the introduction; it is also mentioned that a player character can be human, or other species; monster characters are also allowed, and multiclassing is allowed, etc.
22:02:24 <nooodl_> i definitely enjoyed the mirror's edge univeres
22:02:34 <zzo38> It also mentions that five of the six dice shapes used are Platonic solids.
22:02:39 <nooodl_> just running around and looking at stuff
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22:06:40 <fizzie> ais523: But what if you mostly hack at things and rather rarely shoot things?
22:07:13 <ais523> Metroid Prime doesn't really have any melee weapons (the flamethrower doesn't count), so I'm out of things to compare to
22:07:26 <ais523> zzo38: the d10 shape is the dual of a pentagonal antiprism
22:09:37 <zzo38> ais523: OK, but it still isn't a Platonic solid.
22:10:00 <zzo38> (And these five are the only five possible Platonic solids.)
22:10:01 <ais523> zzo38: indeed; it does belong to a mathematically recognised class of polyhedra, though
22:10:07 <ais523> (which incidentally all make fair dice)
22:10:38 <zzo38> Perhaps I should mention that, then.
22:11:03 <ais523> it's a superset of the Platonic solids
22:11:26 <ais523> and is infinite, but only finitely many aren't the duals of prisms or antiprisms
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22:14:13 <zzo38> I happen to think all of these rules which are changed from D&D, such as magic, alignment prefix, etc, make the game far more interesting (and probably a bit more difficult too); the mathematical stuff also makes it interesting, especially to people who like mathematics.
22:15:35 <zzo38> Another thing is that high-level spellcasters that want to have a large selection of spells available will need to have a lot of strength and/or a lot of spell mastery.
22:17:02 <zzo38> What is called the "DM" or "GM" in other games is normally called the "referee" in this game.
22:17:18 <Bike> who does the plot?
22:18:37 <zzo38> Mostly the referee does the plot, but it also changes depending on what choices the players make during the game.
22:19:26 <zzo38> (And partially on the choices made before the game, such as character species/class/skills/backstory)
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22:43:10 <zzo38> Some of these things can easily be made to work with D&D 3.5E as well: Simply assign level adjustments to those that don't have, use Goldilock's Method for generating ability scores (I already do this), make it so that listed alignments (even if it says "Always") are only what people believe (due to confirmation bias?) and not what it actually is, and you can assign experience points differently; there are many other variations.
22:43:18 <zzo38> Do you like any of these variations?
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22:44:56 <zzo38> (Also, in Icosahedral RPG all core rules are in one book, not three; furthermore, it is arranged very differently. Magic items are listed with mundane, humans and other species are listed with monsters, etc)
22:49:58 <zzo38> Do any of you make any computer games? What programming language/target machine/operating system/etc?
22:50:14 <zzo38> I have various ideas of computer games; do you have some idea please?
22:50:49 <Bike> programming language seems like a weird question for game-making
22:51:02 <Bike> it's (almost, sorta) like asking an author what font they use
22:51:09 <hagb4rd|tempsane> <3 Karin Dreijer Andersson ..thanks sweden :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3XkZbVB2qw&hd=1
22:51:15 -!- hagb4rd|tempsane has changed nick to madb4rd.
22:51:52 <zzo38> Well, if it is applicable to the game you are making, what font do you use?
22:52:23 <zzo38> But I meant, such as, if it is written in C then it might be compatible with many computers if it uses console I/O or SDL, for example.
22:52:39 <zzo38> If in assembly language it is only for one computer (although you can use it on others with emulators).
22:52:45 <Bike> that doesn't seem like a very interesting question to ask
22:52:52 <Bike> it's not about the content or anything
22:53:41 <zzo38> You are correct, but I still want to know what computer it runs on; the font is not important.
22:54:53 <zzo38> My change to Kirby DreamLand 1 for GameBoy is to change the byte at 0x186D8 in the ROM image file from 0x3D to 0xA7, and then try to complete the game with the lowest score possible.
22:55:56 <zzo38> What game did you make up, or even just any ideas you have, even if you did not program it (yet)?
22:56:02 <FreeFull> What does changing the byte do?
22:57:07 <Bike> me personally? an grand theft auto ish game where you play as an NKVD agent in alt-history xinjiang. i will probably never make it.
22:57:19 <zzo38> FreeFull: Gives you infinite lives. (Normally, you lose half your points when you continue. Since I changed the goal to completing the game with the lowest score, giving you infinite lives fixes it.)
22:58:26 <zzo38> Adding a timer would improve it even more, but doing that would be more complicated.
22:59:46 <FreeFull> How many points do you get from bosses?
23:00:13 <zzo38> FreeFull: I don't know, but you get more points if you miss!
23:01:01 <zzo38> (You can also get infinite lives with a PAR code, but because I am playing the game on a GameBoy emulator on the GameBoy Advance (running on the Nintendo DS, actually), which does not support cheat codes, I modified the ROM image instead.)
23:02:23 <zzo38> If you eat the apple you get 10 points and then you can throw it at them; if you hit them enough times then you can progress; otherwise you miss and you have these 10 points and you need more to try again. Therefore, you get more points if you miss!
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23:05:43 <zzo38> Bike: Well, include it in a list of computer game ideas, possibly with more details, whether or not you ever make it. I have various idea of computer games too, some of which I have programmed.
23:07:28 <zzo38> One idea I have is a puzzle game for the Famicom, with pieces placed on the grid, which in addition to individual tiles is also split into 2x2 areas, each of which can contain no more than one non-white color of pieces; attempting to move a yellow piece into a 2x2 area already containg a red one will result in the piece not being moved.
23:07:42 <zzo38> (This takes advantage of a limitation in the Famicom PPU)
23:09:22 <zzo38> Do you like this idea?
23:14:43 <zzo38> Another idea is this: You have to save the monsters from various things (other monsters, human sorcerers, the weather, etc), and touching any monsters (good or bad) by bare hands causes instant death; therefore you have to wear gloves. However, gloves prevent you from wearing rings and activating fingerprint scanners, and takes up part of your maximum carrying weight. Gloves can be used for other things too.
23:16:29 <zzo38> Do you like this one?
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23:23:34 <Bike> `welcome nagor
23:23:37 <HackEgo> nagor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:25:49 <Sgeo> ClamAV thinks wormkit's infected
23:26:36 <elliott> Bike: well if you got welcomed by a bike you'd be pretty freaked out
23:26:49 <Sgeo> Addons thingy for Worms: Armageddon
23:26:54 <Sgeo> Well, more of a mods thingy
23:27:00 <Bike> elliott: *I* wouldn't
23:27:07 <elliott> that's because you're weird
23:27:19 -!- boily has joined.
23:27:38 <Sgeo> Fuck it, I'll quarantine everything
23:28:04 <Bike> it's because i'm a BIKE you RACIST
23:28:49 <zzo38> Maybe you should check to see what is causing it to say such thing. You can also try using a virtual machine.
23:29:02 <Sgeo> I just want my Windows system to work again
23:29:04 <zzo38> How many people in this channel are weird?
23:29:05 <Bike> bikes aren't weird!!!
23:29:09 <Sgeo> I miss when it worked
23:29:21 <Sgeo> And was usably fast
23:29:24 <Bike> systems don't "work" sgeo
23:29:51 <zzo38> Well, Windows does that; it stops working, especially if it is used in the way they are normally being used.
23:33:28 <zzo38> Do you like either of my two ideas of computers games? I have even more idea other than that too; do *you* have any more ideas than just one please?
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23:36:23 <boily> zzo38: I'm thinking about making a brainfuck derivative. I think that's a pretty good idea, too.
23:37:56 <zzo38> boily: I think you need to be more specific.
23:39:16 <Sgeo> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/amanda_berry_is_dead_psychic_t.html
23:40:03 <boily> zzo38: it involves fax, printers and scanners in a network, acting as tape cells.
23:57:48 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: fuck you, xterm).
23:58:09 <zzo38> boily: Write about it in esolang wiki.
23:59:34 <zzo38> Another idea of computer game is, Pokemon game for the Z-machine.