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00:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> someone port cquote to esolangs, i'm too lazy to do it
00:38:22 <elliott> can't port wikipedia templates without permission from all the authors
00:38:40 <elliott> btw it's Esolang singular!!
00:39:23 <unterberg> or ask for permission.. are there so many authors?
00:40:41 <Bike> do many wikipedians program templates?
00:40:51 <Bike> i've been kind of assuming it's a cadre of maybe eight total dorknerds doing all that
00:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but that cadre has probably had some turnover over the years
00:42:31 <unterberg> well, just wanted to point out that's sometimes it's not a bad idea just to ask
00:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> there are actually a ton of people in the page history
00:43:14 <elliott> we migrated one template over to Esolang because it turned out that the only person who had ever changed it was ais523
00:43:29 <elliott> note: we only realised this /after/ resigning ourselves to not having it
00:43:55 <Bike> y'all are good at bureaucracy arencha
00:51:57 <elliott> it'll be in ais523's template namespace contribs
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01:24:31 <Sgeo> "Don't choose Prepaid Card unless you got it from Luke in a promotion at a lug. "
01:26:54 <Sgeo> I guess that's not very wat
01:27:45 <unterberg> i found mediawikis api to be so huge, i'm sure diggin through it you will even find a way to connect it your fridges interface
01:28:28 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1ee0eg/zpanel_support_team_calls_forum_user_fucken/ lol ol ol
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02:24:55 <Sgeo> Good coders trying to write reliable code should try to stick with well-documented, stable APIs, that behave sanely. Evil coders get to use whatever they can find
02:25:09 <kmc> what about chaotic neutral coders
02:25:39 <Sgeo> A decent webapp has no legitimate reason to use VBScript. But if there's something lurking there that an attacker can use, they can use it, at least when victims are using IE
02:25:50 * Bike still conflicted on use of "sanely"
02:26:39 <elliott> i have no idea what is even the topic
02:28:31 <Sgeo> If some browser supports a weird Javascript API foobarbaz() but other browsers don't, and foobarbaz isn't well documented, I shouldn't rely on it, but it still risks my user's data and who knows what else if it can interact with my code in ways I may not know about
02:28:50 <Sgeo> Because attackers are free to use foobarbaz
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02:45:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: how did you get that messge if you already got it
02:46:01 <shachaf> mnoqy; lucky for you KAPPABOT IS DEAD
02:49:20 <Jafet> Do you think death could possibly be a bot?
02:54:41 <Sgeo> https://raw.github.com/cbcercas/zpanel-freebsd/master/config_packs/freebsd/bin/zsudo.c
02:54:45 <Sgeo> Is... is this a joke?
02:55:07 <Sgeo> That doesn't do what I think it does, does it? Let random users put arbitrary strings into commands to be executed?
02:55:35 <pikhq_> There is so much wrong there.
02:56:12 <Sgeo> Is it bad that I only see what I mentioned and the buffer overflow that I wouldn't know how to exploit?
02:57:09 <Bike> so does anyone notable use zpanel; if so why
02:58:08 <pikhq_> Looks to me like you could manage a return-to-libc attack on it.
02:58:18 <Sgeo> I don't know what a return-to-libc attack is
02:58:23 <Bike> what the heck is this even for
02:58:30 <kmc> Sgeo: you should learn because it's cool
02:58:32 <Bike> Sgeo: wikipedia has an article
02:58:44 <Bike> also has a cool name
02:58:44 <kmc> and return oriented programming is cooler
02:58:47 <kmc> (a generalization)
02:59:00 <pikhq_> I'd need some fiddling to *do* it, but that's where I'd start.
02:59:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: It's a fun exercise to figure these things out!
02:59:04 <Bike> 'return to libc' is way better a name than 'buffer overflow' or whatever, i think
02:59:05 <pikhq_> Cause it's totally doable.
02:59:14 <Bike> but seriously, what is this zsudo even for.
02:59:21 <shachaf> Bike: "buffer overflow" is a different thing.
02:59:32 <Bike> I'm just talking about the names.
02:59:56 <Sgeo> Does seem easier to just close the ' in the argument...
03:00:08 <Sgeo> I guess that's boring though
03:00:17 <pikhq_> It probably is easier to exploit that way, yes.
03:00:21 <kmc> it turns out that every binary gives rise to an esolang, whose primitive operations are any instruction sequences in the binary ending in a RET
03:00:33 <kmc> and on x86 it doesn't even need to be an intentional RET, just a C3 byte anywhere
03:00:50 <shachaf> Or some other indirect jumps.
03:00:54 <kmc> and for any nontrivial binary this esolang is complete for writing shellcode
03:00:54 <pikhq_> String interpolation in the arguments to system() is really sneaky.
03:01:31 <Sgeo> Even I was capable of seeing it.
03:01:38 <pikhq_> Yes. It's just a *bad idea*.
03:01:46 <pikhq_> Cause it's so trivial to exploit.
03:01:49 <Bike> so what is it forrrrr
03:01:59 <Sgeo> (Although I was primed with the knowledge that the code was bad)
03:02:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I wouldn't have seen it if I thought it was good code
03:03:06 <pikhq_> Bike: It *basically* runs whatever command is passed to it as the user it's setuid to.
03:03:21 <pikhq_> In a particularly strange way.
03:03:28 <Bike> aren't there utilities do that already
03:03:38 <pikhq_> Yes, but this one doesn't require a password.
03:04:03 <Jafet> Why are they even writing C. I'm pretty sure php scripts can be setuid.
03:04:14 <pikhq_> This thing is several levels of root exploit all in one.
03:04:25 <kmc> Jafet: that suggestion makes me throw up a bit in my mouth
03:04:52 <Jafet> kmc: dude, no more buffer overflows
03:05:37 <kmc> what does setuid(geteuid()) do again?
03:08:12 <kmc> so if i run a setuid root program, i get uid = 1000, euid = 0
03:08:36 <pikhq_> And setuid(0) then makes uid = 0.
03:08:48 <kmc> which is important to exec'd processes, or something?
03:09:36 <kmc> i like that the git repo also contains a binary for zsudo
03:10:06 <Jafet> Maybe that's another exploit
03:10:20 <Jafet> Maybe zpanel is actually a honeypot
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03:26:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: `olist update on Friday, remember?
03:36:32 <shachaf> Oh, there are exciting new ways of addressing kmc.
03:36:45 <Bike> hi is usually a function?
03:37:13 <shachaf> holomorphism is usually a function hth
03:39:20 <Sgeo> ...Is that where 'miuaf' comes from
03:39:30 <Sgeo> ...where did I get the word dagnabit from
03:41:45 <Sgeo> I may have gotten the word from Fitznik
03:41:51 <Sgeo> Here, have some Fitznik 2 musoc
03:42:00 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfi71sO2hS0
03:43:33 <Sgeo> Oh come on that person only uploads one Fitznik 2 song?
03:43:51 <Sgeo> Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP_rNaJ1vOw
03:44:10 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy chocolate chip chip chip
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03:44:21 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy chocolate chip chip chip
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03:56:40 <Sgeo> http://www.raspberrypi.com/
03:56:54 <Sgeo> I've never seen people need to buy codec licenses on their own before
03:57:10 <Sgeo> That ... kind of puts the debate about non-free codecs in perspective
03:58:15 <pikhq_> It's always been the case, the cost is just usually either invisible or ignored.
03:58:41 <pikhq_> Invisible in the case of, say, Windows, or DVD players, or such, where the license is part of the cost.
03:58:52 <pikhq_> Ignored in the case of ffmpeg, you dirty patent violator you.
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03:59:34 <Sgeo> What does Firefox 22+ do on non-Windows?
03:59:43 <Sgeo> ..rely on the OS I guess
04:00:30 <Sgeo> ... suddenly I feel like I really should continue to press for WebM versions of videos... and the Javascript necessary to support it
04:01:06 <Sgeo> Screw third-party vendors who don't know how to use their own product
04:01:27 <pikhq_> Firefox 22+ does the same on Windows. :P
04:01:51 <kmc> can i just say: fuck tha police
04:02:18 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm sure there are Linux users who refuse to use ffmpeg
04:02:21 <Sgeo> And similar things
04:02:29 <Sgeo> I have a friend who refuses on principle to use Flash
04:02:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo: ffmpeg can be built without nonfree codecs.
04:02:33 <shachaf> kmc: only in soviet russia hth
04:02:34 <Bike_> oh you're not talking about the police
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04:02:49 <pikhq_> It isn't generally *used* this way, but it's just a build option.
04:04:06 <pikhq_> So you'll have MPEG-1 and Theora and VP8. Oooh, aaaah.
04:04:29 <Sgeo> And the commom MPEG version is MPEG-4?
04:04:40 <Sgeo> (Based on filenames ending with .mp4)
04:04:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, the common *recent* MPEG version is in the MPEG-4 spec.
04:04:55 <pikhq_> That'll fall out of patent in like 10 years.
04:05:30 <pikhq_> MPEG-2 should be out of patent pretty soon if it's not already.
04:05:56 <pikhq_> That'll be a bit of a bigger deal, because MPEG-2 is still actually used a lot.
04:06:36 <pikhq_> (most digital TV systems are based on MPEG-2)
04:06:43 <unterberg> you mean like it could even get used more?=
04:07:45 * Sgeo wonders what the extension is for MPEG-3
04:07:53 <shachaf> Why are my palms spotted red and white and very itchy?
04:08:36 <Bike> shachaf: stigmata?
04:08:43 <pikhq_> MPEG-3 was designed for a bit but it was discovered that MPEG-2 actually worked for HD video.
04:08:51 <pikhq_> unterberg: That's MPEG-I layer 3 audio.
04:08:54 <Sgeo> Did they avoid naming a codec that because of other file format extension? Oh
04:09:10 <pikhq_> MP3 is patent-free by now.
04:09:42 <Jafet> After 20 years, you can generally expect a compression algorithm to be totally useless
04:09:43 <pikhq_> Oh, shit, no it's not, because the patent system was wonky then.
04:09:48 <Sgeo> Isn't gif out of patent?
04:10:14 <lifthrasiir> > As a result, patents required to implement MP3 expired in most countries by December 2012, 21 years after the publication of ISO CD 11172.
04:10:15 <kappabot> <hint>:1:12: parse error on input `,'
04:10:38 <Sgeo> People don't seem to be switching back to .gif from .png
04:11:00 <Sgeo> When MPEG-4 comes out of patent, will people switch from WebM to MPEG-4 exclusively?
04:11:02 <Bike> Sgeo: what you have to understand is, lolgif
04:11:31 <Sgeo> http://gifs.gifbin.com/1234778541_lol.jpg
04:11:36 <Jafet> I like how video codec implementations are distributed based on the rationalization that although they infringe patents in the country where they're written and distributed, they might conceivably not infringe in some other country
04:12:36 <Bike> patent law is fucked, pretty much any rationalization is fine with me
04:12:42 <pikhq_> Jafet: And the rationale that source code isn't an infringing product, it's just part of an infringing product.
04:12:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, patent law is fucked.
04:12:59 <Jafet> I thought the usual one was that only use of the code would be infringing
04:13:10 <Sgeo> Content-Type:image/jpeg
04:13:15 <pikhq_> Yes, but the code itself is just text.
04:13:31 <Bike> reading old arguments for copyright law is great
04:13:39 <pikhq_> This doesn't apply to the DMCA of course.
04:13:49 <pikhq_> As that makes *text describing how to circumvent* illegal.
04:13:53 <Sgeo> I... does the browser just ignore Content-Type of images?
04:14:08 <Sgeo> And why the hell is a GIFBIN sending image/jpeg in any circumstance
04:14:16 <Jafet> This doesn't apply outside murika, of course.
04:14:31 <Jafet> Or countries which have been politically pressured to emulate the DMCA locally.
04:14:39 <Sgeo> If I upload a .html that manages to look like both a GIF and HTML, and give it a file extension ending with .html, will it be served as text/html?
04:14:46 <Bike> Sgeo: The web is also fucked.
04:14:49 <Bike> Everything is fucked.
04:14:53 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Probably, but good luck pulling that off.
04:15:07 <Sgeo> I don't even know if I have to make it look like both
04:15:14 <Jafet> pikhq: it's been done with html/jar
04:15:44 <pikhq_> Jafet: That's nontrivial but probably actually doable.
04:16:00 <pikhq_> Particularly if the JAR detection is naive and you don't care about it being *valid* JAR.
04:16:17 <Sgeo> myprettyjsonpapi?callback=<script></script>&x=.html
04:16:30 <Sgeo> Although I think IE9 at least knows that that's not really HTML...
04:16:31 <pikhq_> Shove 0x06054b50 in an HTML comment towards the end of the file.
04:16:58 <pikhq_> With some more *work* it'd be doable to make it actually valid JAR.
04:17:42 <pikhq_> If you're careful you can have arbitrary data shoved in a ZIP file.
04:18:17 <pikhq_> As an implementation is *required* to ignore anything not pointed to by the footer.
04:18:29 <pikhq_> Which is itself somewhere within the last 64k of the file.
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04:19:51 <pikhq_> ZIP is freaking designed to have shit hidden in it.
04:20:54 <Bike> Aw man, the place I read Macaulay''s 19th century copyright speeches fell docwn.
04:23:36 <Bike> http://www.baen.com/library/palaver4.htm good old IE error
04:24:02 <kmc> isn't WebM compression better than MPEG-4?
04:24:42 <pikhq_> Worse than MPEG-4 Part 10 (i.e. H.264), better than MPEG-4 Part 2.
04:24:54 <pikhq_> MPEG-4 containes two *different* video codecs.
04:25:13 <kmc> yeah i was thinking of part 2
04:25:57 <pikhq_> WebM is nowhere near as good of a format as the marketing would tell you (seriously, they said it was *better than H.264?*), but it's not bad.
04:26:23 <pikhq_> It's "somewhat worse than H.264 baseline" rather than "... ffmpeg MPEG-2 beats it. Jesus."
04:26:48 <Jafet> What's the complexity class of h.264
04:27:02 <pikhq_> (this probably isn't too fair, ffmpeg MPEG-2 is *really* good.)
04:27:34 <Bike> i should probably figure out how video works some time. have some non-surface idea of why I can't watch video on my computer
04:27:49 <pikhq_> Bike: It's a clusterfuck.
04:28:01 <Bike> well, yes, that much is obvious from the preceding conversation if nothing else
04:28:18 <pikhq_> Basically, digital video includes every single bad decision of broadcasting engineers over the course of 50 years.
04:28:20 <Jafet> Is there anything in computer technology that isn't a clusterfuck
04:28:31 <Sgeo> If different files are encoded in different bitrates, is there a reason for a video player to try to choose one?
04:28:33 <Bike> Is there anything that isn't a clusterfuck. Is there anything. Is
04:28:33 <pikhq_> Digital video is so to a unique degree.
04:28:40 <Sgeo> I don't understand bitrates
04:28:54 <Bike> I'm curious about the historical aspect, pikhq.
04:29:04 <Bike> (now that you mention it, i mean)
04:29:05 <pikhq_> Sgeo: It's nothing more than the number of bits per second.
04:29:16 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Which is loosely correlated with quality, but only loosely.
04:29:24 <pikhq_> Bike: Are you familiar with interlacing?
04:29:40 <Bike> That's like how old TVs only displayed alternate lines?
04:29:51 <pikhq_> This is *part of video standards*.
04:30:18 <Jafet> Because some people decided to interlace digital videos
04:30:19 <Sgeo> Should I watch this? http://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
04:30:25 <pikhq_> Because video codecs were designed so that they could basically store regular OTA signals without modification.
04:30:37 <pikhq_> Bike: Which means that they had to encode interlaced signals.
04:30:44 <pikhq_> Because the *broadcast itself is interlaced*.
04:30:50 <pikhq_> Only the alternate lines even exist.
04:31:03 <Bike> "a half-hour firehose of information" i don't think i'm up for this
04:31:08 <pikhq_> There's still more crazy shit.
04:31:18 <pikhq_> For instance, pixels in SD video are *not square*.
04:31:19 <Bike> keep going, keep going, you've got me hooked
04:31:26 <Bike> what... does that mean
04:31:37 <pikhq_> Taller than they are wide.
04:31:46 <Jafet> @google pixels are not squares
04:31:47 <Bike> i'd... expect the opposite?
04:31:48 <pikhq_> Because this is how it happened to work on analog signals.
04:31:49 <kappabot> http://ftp.alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Microsoft/6_pixel.pdf
04:31:49 <kappabot> Title: A Pixel Is Not A Little Square, A Pixel Is Not A Little Square, A Pixel Is Not A ...
04:32:01 <pikhq_> On computers, they're square.
04:32:20 <Bike> give eme little squares or give me death
04:32:28 <pikhq_> The upshot of which is that to display SD signals you need to scale the signal *no matter the resolution of your screen*.
04:32:33 <pikhq_> This on top of your deinterlacing.
04:32:43 <Bike> that sounds computationally expensive
04:33:18 <pikhq_> Also fun: most digital SD signals actually have the vertical blanking area encoded.
04:33:30 <pikhq_> Yeah, that's right. It's got black bits on the side.
04:33:43 <Bike> in... the signal?
04:33:50 <pikhq_> In the actual MPEG video.
04:33:59 <Bike> Like there's a bit in the file saying "this far to the left is black"?
04:34:04 <Sgeo> What happens if you put white bits there instead?
04:34:17 <pikhq_> The *video contains black there*.
04:34:32 <pikhq_> Which is why the video is 720x480 instead of 704x480.
04:34:39 <pikhq_> Only 704 of the pixels have video.
04:34:43 <pikhq_> The other 16 are black.
04:35:07 <Sgeo> If there was nontrivial video content there, would it just be an easter egg for someone to find, or would it break something?
04:35:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Doesn't break shit.
04:35:32 <pikhq_> Except it makes broadcast engineers cry.
04:35:58 <pikhq_> This is an area where the electron beam in an analog TV is off.
04:36:01 <Sgeo> I assume it gets ... compressed away though, right?
04:36:31 <pikhq_> It still takes space, but MPEG-style codecs are pretty good at dealing with regions that don't actually *move*.
04:37:17 <pikhq_> Bike: You'll also "love" that US TV is at 60000/1001 frames per second.
04:37:57 <pikhq_> This was done when color was introduced, so that the color signal wouldn't interfere with the audio.
04:38:10 <pikhq_> Before then it was 60.
04:38:21 <Bike> and... it's still present in digital formats, or...
04:38:44 <pikhq_> This also means that one doesn't generally find 24 fps content, one finds 24000/1001 fps content.
04:39:04 <pikhq_> Often stuck *in* a 60000/1001 stream via telecine.
04:39:44 <pikhq_> (this is where each frame is shown in a pattern of 2, 3, 2, 3, ... frames)
04:39:44 <Jafet> 3:2 "nobody will notice it"
04:40:23 <pikhq_> European video does something slightly wonkier. They just speed up the video slightly so it's at 25 fps.
04:40:37 <pikhq_> Because it's 50 fps there.
04:40:45 <pikhq_> (because they use 50 Hz power)
04:41:17 <Jafet> Well, those could have been reasonable decisions at the time.
04:41:27 <Bike> i believe that is the point.
04:41:45 <pikhq_> Yes, this was done so they wouldn't need a timing circuit.
04:41:53 <pikhq_> And instead just use the power as a clock.
04:42:02 <pikhq_> Not that that helped in Japan...
04:42:11 <Jafet> Even clocks use the power grid as clocks
04:42:16 <Jafet> That's a bit funny
04:42:59 <pikhq_> Their TV is 60 fps. Their power is 50 or 60 Hz depending on which half of the country you're in.
04:45:01 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higashi-Shimizu_Frequency_Converter
04:47:57 <Bike> 100 cubits of electricity is a biblical law, pikhq
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04:53:04 <pikhq_> Jafet: They're the only country using 100V.
04:53:47 <Jafet> This makes exports more difficult, I guess
04:54:24 <pikhq_> Except nowadays electronics tend to have 100-250V 50/60Hz power supplies.
04:54:42 <pikhq_> And Japan uses the US sockets.
04:55:06 <pikhq_> (like every country using 120V 60Hz power...)
04:56:13 <Jafet> 100V is probably insignificantly safer
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04:56:53 <pikhq_> They also generally don't have grounded sockets.
04:58:25 <shachaf> Going to lectures by famous people is kind of annoying because people come to ask completely irrelevant questions.
04:59:10 <shachaf> I guess Feynman had a solution to that.
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04:59:55 <kmc> did he punch them?
05:01:16 <shachaf> I think he just went under a different name.
05:02:05 <shachaf> Anyway yesterday someone asked "Is mathematics a human invention or a discovery blah blah blah"
05:02:36 <pikhq_> Look at that, you think of yourself as a great philosopher. Ain't that adorable.
05:02:41 <Bike> mathematicians, the foremost opinions on philosophy of maths
05:02:47 <Bike> that wasn't supposed to be "opinions"
05:03:26 <shachaf> are bicycles discovered or invented
05:05:41 <shachaf> There should be a button people press to indicate that they understood your pun.
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05:05:52 <Bike> "the bike button"
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05:11:57 <shachaf> oerjan: the joke is that you "groan" at puns, as in "grown", hth
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05:13:42 <Bike> Why does oerjan need to be informed of this
05:13:57 <shachaf> oerjan needs to be informe of everything
05:14:01 <shachaf> why do you think he logreads
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12:49:14 <boily> as long as I can autocomplete on 'ta <TAB>', everything's fine.
12:53:16 <Jafet> > (zipWith (-) `on` ord) "taneb" "atriq"
12:53:17 <kappabot> Couldn't match expected type `[c0]'
12:53:20 <Jafet> > (zipWith (-) `on` map ord) "taneb" "atriq"
12:53:42 <Jafet> > (zipWith (+) `on` map ord) "taneb" "atriq"
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15:02:01 <boily> oh, only one reply from fungot?
15:02:02 <fungot> boily: meeting with transalta and other me priorities. identify any necessary true that aec for such a site
16:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, fuck, I just realised I really want to read Prequel again.
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17:14:07 <Bike> > ((1/).(1/)) -0.0
17:14:08 <kappabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional (c0 -> c0))
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17:46:57 <oerjan> <Bike> Why does oerjan need to be informed of this <-- this also eludes me, maybe the rest of the logs will clarify.
17:47:45 <oerjan> ah. in that case, did i say anything, at any time, that provoked your information? dwh
17:48:10 <Bike> "this would help"?
17:48:14 <boily> there was hambiguity.
17:48:26 <oerjan> and Bike is the winner! or close enough, anyway.
17:48:33 <Bike> i could go for some hambiguity atm
17:48:47 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:49:03 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:49:15 <oerjan> kappabot: what did you do to poor lambdabot
17:49:48 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:50:03 <kappabot> Could not find some databases: default
17:50:12 <oerjan> i sense a lack of databases.
17:50:13 <metasepia> A representation, usually on a plane surface, of a region of the earth or heavens.
17:50:29 <metasepia> Software description: add commands to use Hoogle within vim (VimL).
17:51:09 <oerjan> shachaf: ah it's your bot that explains the impatient PATIENCE
17:52:13 <kappabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:52:13 <kappabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:52:13 <kappabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:53:04 <kappabot> Data.Data class Typeable a => Data a
17:53:05 <kappabot> Data.Data dataCast1 :: (Data a, Typeable1 t) => (forall d. Data d => c (t d)) -> Maybe (c a)
17:54:08 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> there are actually a ton of people in the page history <-- but how many of those are vandals that were reverted? you could _probably_ consider those not to share in the copyright, right?
17:55:10 <Bike> what if you went on a daring ocean's eleven style heist to just /steal/ the template
17:55:48 <oerjan> Bike: that would not help the esolang wiki hth
17:56:09 <Bike> what if instead of not helping... it did helping?
17:56:20 <olsner> Bike: stealing doesn't quite work like that on information
17:57:32 <Bike> have you tried
18:01:14 <oerjan> `log i[s] now known as unterberg
18:01:20 <HackEgo> 2013-05-15.txt:18:34:20: -!- madb4rd2 is now known as unterberg.
18:01:53 <olsner> ... is now known to unterberg.
18:02:04 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA YOU HAVE BEEN REVEALED*
18:03:12 <shachaf> oerjan: can i been revealed.....
18:03:17 <kappabot> Control.Lens.Fold (^?!) :: s -> Getting (Endo a) s a -> a
18:03:18 <kappabot> Control.Lens.Operators (^?!) :: s -> Getting (Endo a) s a -> a
18:03:35 <oerjan> `log i[s] now known as shachaf
18:03:40 <HackEgo> 2012-10-22.txt:09:10:19: -!- SHACHAF is now known as shachaf.
18:04:00 <oerjan> shachaf: that seems somehow unsatisfactory.
18:04:47 <oerjan> boily: to make sure the line doesn't match itself.
18:05:09 <Bike> `log is that actually necessary
18:05:14 <HackEgo> 2013-05-16.txt:18:05:09: <Bike> `log is that actually necessary
18:06:00 <oerjan> Bike: there is also `pastlog which restricts to not matching today
18:06:02 <HackEgo> 2013-03-14.txt:00:02:31: <kmc> yes Bike, there exist multiple RSS readers
18:06:38 <HackEgo> 2013-01-19.txt:15:03:37: <Sgeo_> http://hypirion.com/swearjure (yes shachaf, this is Clojure related)
18:06:46 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:06:50 <HackEgo> 2007-12-31.txt:21:50:20: <ehird> yes oerjan
18:06:53 <HackEgo> 2013-01-14.txt:07:31:52: <Bike> no shachaf, no
18:07:24 <boily> `log mayb[e] boily
18:07:29 <HackEgo> 2013-02-07.txt:20:55:36: <elliott> maybe boily had some cleverer exploit in mind I didn't though
18:07:59 <HackEgo> 2013-05-05.txt:23:26:11: <olsner> perhaps Bike is what you should be terrified of
18:08:56 <HackEgo> 2012-02-23.txt:18:53:06: <elliott> Noooo
18:09:23 <HackEgo> 2013-04-14.txt:15:08:24: <ThatOtherPerson> nooooooooooooooooo
18:09:27 <HackEgo> 2012-08-27.txt:23:26:47: <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your monad transformer stack
18:23:38 <zzo38> Now I made a SQL database of the headers of all of the Infocom games (including the unreleased ones).
18:24:12 <Lumpio-> An SQL database sounds surprisingly... normal for zzo38
18:24:27 <Lumpio-> Surely it's not anything mainstream like sqlite/postgresql/mysql?
18:25:28 <boily> zzo38: that kind of non-obscure attitude is poorly viewed in this channel. stop being logical and normal.
18:27:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> Why are my palms spotted red and white and very itchy? <-- that reminds me of a similar experience, 14 years ago. did this (1) start with thinking extremely negative thoughts and (2) continue with vomiting ?
18:28:05 <zzo38> It includes the unreleased files; there seems to be one Zork I file in version 6. There is also something called "Milliways" which is also version 6; this is not mentioned in the Z-Machine Standards Document.
18:29:23 <boily> tth logic, with transistors and hambiguities?
18:29:27 <oerjan> the acronyms are breeding!
18:29:37 <elliott> oerjan: sounds like an exciting experience
18:30:11 <kmc> http://gomsx.net/hansotten/msxdocs/machinecodeforbeginners.pdf fuck yes I had this book growing up
18:30:29 <oerjan> elliott: it made me realize that sometimes it is important not to think about stuff too much hth
18:30:36 <shachaf> i thought you grew up before books were invented
18:30:57 <olsner> oerjan: sounds like that animal poison that supposedly causes a feeling of impending doom
18:31:17 <shachaf> kmc: Is it worth it waiting N minutes for the 15MB file to load?
18:31:23 <kmc> I thought so
18:31:26 <kmc> but nostalgia
18:32:29 <elliott> kmc: how do I get chromium to show pdfs in a little embedded evince thing
18:32:31 <elliott> it has to be possible right
18:32:37 <shachaf> Hmm, that picture looks promising.
18:32:45 <shachaf> elliott: just use libpdf.so hth
18:32:57 <kmc> i dion't know
18:33:08 <oerjan> olsner: i think i had better triggers for feelings of impending doom than that at the time hth
18:33:24 <Bike> this channel has an hth problem
18:33:38 <oerjan> just say no to hth hth
18:34:01 <elliott> kmc: well i sure hope that fancy mozilla browser does pdfs nicely!!
18:34:29 <Bike> hello, am mozilla firefox of afghanistan
18:34:37 <boily> Bike: we're still under 0.2 hpp.
18:34:55 <boily> (Hambigs Per PRIVMSG)
18:34:57 <Bike> i don't know what that means. are you hitting on me
18:35:39 <oerjan> zzo38: milliways is the name of the restaurant at the end of the universe in douglas adams' book of the latter name fwiw
18:35:44 <shachaf> Bike: hitting on you is the purpose of this channel hth
18:36:01 <boily> Bike: we can still be friends.
18:36:16 <olsner> hmm, fwiw and hth seem like synonyms
18:36:28 <Bike> that's because they're both meaningless.
18:37:07 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, it's only ~0 pages.
18:37:21 <oerjan> fwiw they're _not_ meaningless hth
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18:37:48 <Bike> considering figuring out how to get irssi to black out "hth"
18:37:49 -!- augur has joined.
18:38:04 <boily> they're meaningless hth. ftfy.
18:38:05 <shachaf> just /ignore lines that end in hth hth
18:38:18 <boily> shachaf: irssi can do that?
18:38:24 <elliott> ok seriously stop the hth thing or i'm going to go crazy
18:38:41 <Bike> you can ignore patterns, yeah
18:38:41 <boily> hth. hth. hth! HTH HTH HTHHHHH N
18:38:41 <shachaf> boily: /ignore -regexp hth$ hth
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 -replies: Ignore replies to nick in channels. For example
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 "/IGNORE -replies *!*@*.fi PUBLIC" ignores everyone
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 from Finland, but also anyone sending message
18:39:24 <shachaf> 11:38 "tofinnishnick: blahblah".
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18:40:02 <olsner> elliott: are you sure it's not too late?
18:41:21 <boily> I'm disturbed. there's at least one web framework written in any possible language: http://leafo.net/lapis/
18:42:11 <Bike> what the heck is surprising about lua
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18:42:45 <olsner> is there a web framework for fortran? intercal?
18:43:02 <Bike> there's one for cobol, as demonstrated by our illustrious friend earlier
18:43:03 <boily> Bike: no problems in lua. it's the moonscript part that surprises me.
18:43:17 <shachaf> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ hth
18:43:22 <Bike> it has "script" in it so i'm not surprised
18:46:24 <boily> we should then rename brainfsck to brainscript, then magically a web framework will appear.
18:46:55 <elliott> Bike: arrays being indexed from 1
18:47:18 <Bike> a practice started by notable mainstream language APL!!!
18:48:43 <shachaf> APL isn't even a programming language hth
18:51:24 * oerjan can finally press the Bike button.
18:51:43 <olsner> what's the Bike button?
18:51:54 <Bike> The button you press when somebody doesn't understand a pun.
18:51:54 <olsner> what's the Bike button do?
18:52:05 <Bike> It gets pressed.
18:52:19 <shachaf> don't depress the Bike button
18:52:26 <olsner> shachaf: I'm not doing anything, the question is what the button does
18:52:34 <kmc> lua is a fine language with a really fast JIT
18:52:48 <kmc> i guess MoonScript is the CoffeeScript of Lua?
18:54:09 <Bike> olsner: http://25.media.tumblr.com/9b696b6531098b0ff81bef25af1b3027/tumblr_mlswq3ZGrX1snfhwio1_1280.png
18:54:22 <oerjan> Bike: no, that's when you _do_ understand a pun, sheesh
18:56:50 <Bike> I don't understand puns, oerjan. Not now, not ever.
18:57:34 <shachaf> Bike: You didn't use to understand them, but they've grown on you.
18:57:35 * oerjan puts Bike on his nemesis list
18:57:46 <shachaf> oerjan: Am I on your nemesis list?
18:58:08 <boily> puns tend to grow like mushrooms.
18:58:15 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that.
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20:18:46 * shachaf considers /hilight -regexp chaf\b
20:21:56 <kmc> you should do that
20:23:18 <Bike> `run grep 'chaf$' /usr/share/dict/words
20:23:20 <HackEgo> grep: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
20:23:41 <shachaf> With my word list, at least.
20:23:49 <Bike> yeah, same, just gotta demonstrate
20:26:44 <oerjan> ooh, tekmo has changed/removed the behavior of StateP in the pipes library that i found so weird...
20:27:18 <shachaf> i choose to read that as "the pipes library that i found so weird"
20:34:11 <shachaf> Puzzle: Which word is used in the phrase "if for no other reason th[ae]n"?
20:35:54 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:36:21 <boily> Taneb: still having identity troubles?
20:36:27 <olsner> shachaf: is it "reason"?
20:36:39 <Taneb> boily, I don't know who I am any more
20:36:44 <Taneb> Maybe I'm just Phantom_Hoover
20:37:25 <shachaf> olsner: the puzzle is than vs. then
20:37:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, am I you?
20:38:01 <Taneb> boily, it's official
20:38:04 <Taneb> I'm actually Phantom_Hoover
20:38:09 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Phantom_____Hoov.
20:38:11 <olsner> shachaf: it depends, is that the phrase with then or the one with than?
20:38:15 -!- Phantom_____Hoov has changed nick to Phantom___Hoover.
20:38:24 <shachaf> The *standard* phrase, olsner.
20:38:24 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to Taneb.
20:38:43 <Taneb> NickServ doesn't like me admitting our shared identity, Phantom_Hoover
20:38:52 <boily> shachaf: than if you're making a comparison. then if you're saying “if for no other reason, then that stuff will happen”.
20:39:15 <shachaf> boily; Yes, but *which is it*?
20:39:34 <shachaf> "if for no other reason then because X"
20:39:46 <boily> shachaf: than. you're comparing.
20:40:11 <boily> then. you're stating a consequent.
20:40:22 <shachaf> I know what "than" and "then" mean.
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20:50:28 <oerjan> if for no other reason than because you can say it like this
20:50:41 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split).
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20:51:18 <oerjan> except that's not a whole sentence
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20:52:04 <oerjan> you should make it a whole sentence, if for no other reason than because otherwise it just confuses shachaf
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20:52:59 <boily> they removed fulsome and evaporate from 0.12. I am sad.
20:53:19 <oerjan> evaporate was ... liquidated.
20:54:04 <boily> oerjan: remind me to whack you tomorrow morning.
20:54:10 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit).
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20:55:06 <oerjan> @tell boily whack me in the morning.
20:58:20 <kmc> T DEUCE WHACK ME IN THE MORNING
20:59:55 <Bike> petition to make T WHOEVER a synonym for @tell whoever
21:00:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:01:12 <kmc> only if the entire message is in all caps
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21:23:51 <kmc> i need to get a better rubik's cube if I'm going to fiddle with it all day
21:23:54 <kmc> or else i will get RSI
21:25:05 <oerjan> rubik's scrambling insanity
21:27:18 -!- mnoqy has joined.
21:28:08 <elliott> kmc: are there premium rubik's cubes
21:28:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: scrambling out of here).
21:29:30 <elliott> made out of 100% aluminium
21:29:45 <kmc> i think high end speed cubes are still plastic but yes, they are lubricated
21:29:57 <kmc> usually with graphite or sillicone
21:30:01 <kmc> petroleum is bad
21:30:39 <olsner> high speed cubes with silly cone
21:30:48 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW-rd9ZR-TA
21:31:21 <Bike> 2 rubik 2 furious
21:31:41 <kmc> i went to college with one of the rubiks cube world record guys
21:31:53 <Bike> ok i can't help but be amused at the 2x2 record
21:31:55 <olsner> is that 3x3 cube really scrambled properly?
21:32:22 <kmc> i assume it is scrambled according to http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#article-4-scrambling
21:32:35 <Bike> world cube association
21:33:26 <olsner> looks like there's a lot of dexterity involved
21:34:06 <kmc> also you have to memorize a lot of different move sequences
21:34:44 <kmc> vs the simple methods used by dabblers such as myself
21:35:01 <kmc> which involve a few simple move sequences, that you may need to apply many times
21:35:26 <kmc> i think my record time for 3x3x3 is like... 1m30s
21:35:48 <olsner> I've never solved a cube
21:35:49 <pikhq> Mine's approx. 2m. (I don't have a good figure because it's been a while)
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21:49:13 <olsner> someone solved 2033 cubes in 2012, and apparently you need to be faster than about 8s to reach top 100
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21:52:06 <olsner> fungot: how are your cube skills?
21:52:06 <fungot> olsner: past 2001 outages related that impact accounting for any enron public relations with the different on our " form" llc agreement of the call you asked.
22:02:56 <kappabot> You don't have any new messages.
22:03:13 <Koen_> this is a job for the esoteric logs!
22:03:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:04:10 <olsner> thence the word enron in fungot's previous statement
22:04:10 <fungot> olsner: i may not see teams listed in the attached and let cynthia know any major complications of a schedule the next. market as
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22:22:50 <shachaf> elliott: Today at the store I saw a box labeled "Flake" an below that "the crumbliest, flakiest milk chocolate".
22:22:59 <shachaf> There was also some Arabic text (?).
22:23:05 <shachaf> Unfortunate it had been emptied.
22:24:08 <kmc> the flakiest milk chocolate is just air
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22:28:51 <shachaf> i can't concentrate on anything through my itchy palms and itchy feet and itchy stomach
22:30:20 <kmc> itch cream?
22:30:33 <elliott> i read that as a deliberate misspelling of ice cream
22:30:50 <elliott> i also started craving a flake when i read what shachaf said, maybe my body is trying to tell me it needs sugar
22:31:06 <shachaf> elliott: maybe you just need to wait patiently
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22:38:21 <kmc> i have some itch cream, it's p. good
22:38:28 <kmc> for itches i mean
22:38:29 <kmc> not to eat
22:39:03 <shachaf> that was better when i read it as "ice cream"
22:39:26 <shachaf> anyway it's all over my body everywhere
22:39:27 <elliott> i really want ice cream now
22:39:54 <Koen_> okay now my mouth is full of useless saliva TAHNK YOU
22:48:27 <Bike> saliva has all sorts of uses!
22:49:42 <kmc> i'm finding out that you can't mess around with saliva
22:50:18 <Bike> "mess around with"?
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22:54:35 <elliott> kmc meant to say salvia but typo'd the joke is kmc drugs
22:54:54 <shachaf> kmc meant to say sativa but typo'd the joke is kmc drugs
22:55:09 <kmc> all of that
22:55:50 <mnoqy> did someone say kmc drugs i love that joke
22:56:21 <Bike> drugs more like keegan laugh devices
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22:57:13 <shachaf> mnoqy: really what a coïncidence we make that joke in #esoteric a lot
22:57:46 <Bike> #esoteric-drugs
23:06:46 <Sgeo> I was so utterly furious earlier today
23:06:51 <Sgeo> I'm calm now though.
23:07:24 <shachaf> Sgeo: need help getting to that emotional peak again?
23:08:19 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: for now).
23:15:25 <kmc> Sgeo: what were you furious about?
23:16:22 <kmc> measured in furions
23:23:19 -!- kingof9x has joined.
23:26:34 <Sgeo> `welcome kingof9x
23:26:37 <HackEgo> kingof9x: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:36:18 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjecYugTbIQ
23:37:13 <Sgeo> Doctor Who season finale
23:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott remember that thing about formal power series and types
23:39:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh what about it
23:40:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, is there any reason for me to get a Raspberry Pi
23:40:47 <Bike> power series and types?
23:40:48 <Sgeo> I don't even have an external monitor I can use :(
23:41:36 <Jafet> Informal power series
23:43:38 <kmc> Sgeo: well is there a project you want to do
23:43:45 <kmc> or do you think that having it will inspire you to do a project
23:43:47 <Sgeo> kmc, not really
23:43:55 <Sgeo> (At least not really to the former)
23:44:05 <kmc> i want to get one to run some LED strips
23:44:32 <Sgeo> And ... the latter seems more likely if, say, I had a server on prgmr or something
23:44:40 <Sgeo> Than if I had a little computer I could carry with me
23:45:14 <Sgeo> I can think of plenty of times in my past where I wished I had a server
23:45:45 <ais523> Sgeo: I eventually got one, for that reason
23:46:18 <Sgeo> I actually have money now that I could use to ... buy one
23:50:29 <kmc> is calling people eichmann the new calling people hitler
23:51:02 <Bike> isn't it pretty old? i mean there's that book "little eichmanns"
23:51:39 <Sgeo> ...apparently I don't know history. I thought you were referring to the guy who annoyed people and was involved with libc... but I think his name begins with U
23:52:02 <Bike> ulrich drepper, that is
23:52:21 <Bike> the point is: sgeo...........
23:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> who would've thought discrete maths 2 would have any practical applications
23:53:18 <Bike> practical applications in type theory
23:53:19 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: will you mail me some cadbury flake
23:53:43 <Bike> anyway: are there like a lot of papers about type theory and power series
23:53:44 <mnoqy> is cadbury flake good
23:54:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: i don't know i've never had any
23:54:10 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: how much would it be
23:54:18 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: elliott offered to pay for postage i think????
23:54:41 <kmc> q: whats flake
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flake_(chocolate_bar) flake
23:54:55 <shachaf> kmc: a: its like mekupelet hth
23:54:56 <Bike> some kind of british candy
23:55:05 <kmc> q: eat jaffa cakes instead hth
23:55:23 <shachaf> kmc: a: the jaffa cakes from the other day were kind of terrible hth
23:55:25 <Bike> we have 31 flavors
23:55:35 <elliott> kmc: let me get a good picture for you
23:55:36 <shachaf> or maybe it's me who was kind of terrible????????????
23:55:56 <elliott> kmc: http://www.bonappetit.com/images/magazine/2011/10/hipster-candy/cadbury-flake-484.jpg
23:55:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what
23:56:03 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: how can you be so wrong
23:56:09 <mnoqy> elliott: ah yes, hipster candy
23:56:12 <elliott> kmc: http://shutupinternet.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/flake.jpg
23:56:18 <shachaf> http://static.flickr.com/29/141111540_a537736a91_m.jpg
23:56:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: jaffa cakes are good btw
23:56:41 <shachaf> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/4965525449_295ccde31f.jpg mekupelet
23:56:45 <mnoqy> have i ever had a jaffa cake???no idea
23:57:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: "its a euphemism for simon marlow hth"
23:57:11 <elliott> mnoqy: do you want me to mail you some cadbury flake's + jaffa cake's (the proper mcvities kind)
23:57:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, how much do OLPCs cost
23:57:48 <elliott> okay i'll include some digestives
23:57:55 <elliott> mnoqy's going to learn ALL ABOUT biscuits
23:58:11 <Sgeo> Wasn't there a time you could buy one which would also donate one?
23:58:13 <shachaf> http://www.flickr.com/photos/kirsch/141111540/sizes/l/in/photostream/ better picture
23:58:29 <shachaf> elliott: hey i saw cadbury digestive biscuits for sale today
23:58:38 <shachaf> it sounds kind of disgusting
23:58:41 <elliott> shachaf: cadbury?? did they have chocolate on them
23:58:45 <elliott> not all digestive's have chocolates
23:58:47 <Bike> Sgeo: you could also donate some money without doing so as part of a purchased bundle.
23:58:58 <kmc> "digestive biscuit" is like the least appetizing name for a food
23:59:12 <Sgeo> Bike, sure, but maybe I want one >.>
23:59:18 <elliott> you kind of have to dunk it in milky tea for it to taste nice tho, regardless of whether you like milky tea or not
23:59:25 <Bike> aren't they basically just netbooks?
23:59:29 <elliott> since otherwise it's very... dry
23:59:29 <kmc> elliott: british lifehack
23:59:30 <Bike> i mean you can just, buy a netbook
23:59:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it depends
23:59:38 <elliott> if you have like half a digestive then sure it's okay dry
23:59:42 <elliott> but imo a full one is a bit much
23:59:46 <shachaf> this channel is disgusting
23:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> of late i take a bite out of the biscuit, then drink the tea and let them mix in my mouth
23:59:50 <Sgeo> Bike, it has some custom software which is interesting iirc
23:59:58 <kmc> Sgeo: i advise against buying an OLPC XO
23:59:59 <Bike> sorry are you talking about a food honestly called "digestive biscuit"