00:00:56 <kmc> yeah I am somewhat conflicted about these strips
00:01:51 <kmc> beating up strawmen is kind of annoying
00:02:01 <nooodl> that xkcd is so awful...
00:02:10 <kmc> especially because it's usually in a contrived situation with unrealistic dialogue because xkcd
00:02:29 <kmc> but I think some of the best xkcd strips are the ones that poke fun at the tropes of nerd culture
00:02:52 <kmc> this is a crappy example yes
00:03:31 <Bike> well nerds don't exist so by implication any cultural thing is a nerd cultural thing
00:03:34 <kmc> see also the alt text
00:03:37 <nooodl> the recent footnotes one was very "classic xkcd" imo, it was cute
00:03:38 <kmc> where rm admits that he did this as a kid
00:03:46 <kmc> but also misunderstands information theory i think
00:04:17 <copumpkin> at least he takes bitcoin donations
00:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> he's used the same character (read: hairstyle) before, and it has generally been for contemptible stramwn
00:04:23 <kmc> lol really
00:04:34 <copumpkin> yeah, it's right on the front page
00:04:37 <nooodl> maybe this guy should just write what-if more and do comics less
00:05:13 <Bike> kmc: well, 'interesting' is interestingly hard to define, in information theory
00:05:30 <kmc> nooodl: yeah
00:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a strip about pickup artists with this guy which would have been shit but relevant if it had come out a good few years before it did
00:05:40 <Bike> since obviously he's right that random sequences have high (infinite) kolmogorov complexity, but such sequences are 'boring'
00:05:42 <kmc> people have been suggesting that since before what-if existed
00:05:55 <kmc> Bike: yeah. i have heard of quantifying "Bayesian surprise"
00:06:25 <kmc> i think RM finds some personal satisfaction in releasing 3 comics a week, no matter how bad
00:06:32 <kmc> even in the middle of personal crisis
00:06:38 <kmc> i can't really begrudge him that
00:06:50 <kmc> but that doesn't mean i'm not going to make fun of the result when it sucks
00:07:16 <Bike> bayes and kolmogorov is interesting, you know that bayesion prior distribution that's in a sense "perfect"-ly bias-free, but uncomputable?
00:07:24 <kmc> i've heard that
00:07:27 <kmc> don't really understand that
00:07:44 <Bike> i'm not sure anyone but solomonoff really does
00:07:52 <kmc> i think xkcd has almost never missed an update and has been running for almost 8 years
00:07:56 <Bike> there was that AIXI thing a while back related to it and AI, it seemed a bit dorky but oh well
00:08:01 <kmc> i can see wanting to keep the streak alive
00:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ALERT hazardous concentrations of the word 'Bayesian' detected
00:08:30 <kmc> #esoteric is not a phyg!
00:08:39 <Bike> i'm actually more of a frequentist :D but that doesn't mean i don't like good probability research
00:08:43 <Bike> what the fuck is a phyg
00:08:48 <kmc> `rot13 phyg
00:09:18 <Bike> anyway i have a book on kolmogorov that goes into uses for bayesian inference and stuff
00:09:31 <kmc> it's the word that the Singularity Institute^W^WMachine Intelligence Research Institute people use to talk about whether they're a cult without giving googlejuice to "singularity institute cult"
00:09:37 <kmc> and I think LWers as well
00:09:46 <Bike> there's some neat bits about reconstructing phylogenetic relationships based on approximations of kolmogorov complexity (that approximation being gzip)
00:09:48 <kmc> (SingInst sold the name "Singularity" to someone else)
00:09:51 <Bike> but i understand about 8% of the book
00:10:04 <kmc> gzip: best esolang?
00:10:31 <Bike> it's cool that just whatever practical compression algorithm can be used like that, i think
00:10:45 <kmc> Bike: when i was an undergrad I did some research into quantifying complexity in the cell lineage tree of C. elegans
00:10:48 <kmc> didn't really go anywhere
00:11:02 <Bike> c elegans is the best imo
00:11:14 <kmc> basically trying to make a small automaton which will describe the cell division pattern
00:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember way back when i read dmm's list of esoteric things i thought his tinyurl compression algorithm was amazing
00:11:38 <Bike> kmc: oh shit, developmental makes it like 90% craczier
00:11:41 <kmc> copumpkin: do not want
00:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> c. difficile is harmless with healthy immune systems isn't it
00:12:31 <Bike> oh huh, c difficile actually exists
00:12:33 <Bike> not that it's a nematode
00:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> also: i am saying that in my head as 'diffickilee' with all the i's short
00:13:00 <Bike> "causes severe diarrhea and other intestinal disease when competing bacteria in the gut flora have been wiped out by antibiotics"
00:13:20 <kmc> i'll stick with my friends S. cerevisiae and L. sanfranciscensis
00:13:49 <Sgeo> I should read about gzip
00:13:55 <Sgeo> And machines and pipes
00:14:02 <kmc> Sgeo: your rapper name can be G-Zip
00:14:12 <kmc> is 'machines' another haskell library
00:14:48 <kmc> what's it do
00:15:09 <Sgeo> An edwardk library that I think has similar goals to the pipes/conduits/blah except... hmm
00:15:11 <kmc> shachaf: oh, I should add Rust to my short list of languages where objects (rather than just references to objects) are first-class values
00:15:22 <Sgeo> It defines a monad for creating a structure that gets compiled into something else
00:15:23 <Bike> so i just found out my laptop has numlock, and spent ten seconds figuring out how to disable it
00:15:29 <Bike> anyway http://www.bogleech.com/comics/comic7-barnacle.htm
00:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> why does edwardk give all his libraries dumb non-categorical names
00:17:27 -!- augur has joined.
00:17:44 <Sgeo> DOCTOR WHO SEASON FINALE
00:17:47 <Bike> tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow
00:18:00 <kmc> wibbly wobbly timey wimey
00:18:44 <Sgeo> I'll do that when I stop reading Homestuck. Voluntarily, I mean.
00:18:45 <Bike> farscape season finale tomorrow!! or at least you can watch it then
00:18:59 <elliott> the homestuck-doctor who link
00:19:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, also, should I be watching Farscape or finishing DS9?
00:19:12 <Sgeo> I know you want me to both
00:19:27 <kmc> the series finale of The Office (US) was yesterday
00:19:28 <Bike> tv shows are important
00:19:46 <Sgeo> I don't remember where I stopped
00:20:02 <Bike> you're gonna give phantom an aneurysm!
00:20:28 <kmc> shachaf: Rust has several, exciting kinds of pointer
00:20:52 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, no, but I remember Garak *spoilers* and Sisko feeling guilty
00:21:14 <Sgeo> Just checked: In the Pale Moonlight is season 6. I'm partly into season 7
00:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW COULD YOU STOP AFTER WATCHING IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT
00:22:36 <Sgeo> Because attempting to watch TV for 32 hours straight isn't considered healthy?
00:24:31 <pikhq> Staying up 36 hours is unhealthy but that doesn't stop my body from keeping me awake for that long!
00:26:03 <kmc> owned boxes, managed boxes, and borrowed pointers
00:26:26 <kmc> and maybe other stuff
00:28:03 <Sgeo> kmc, something to do with concurrency?
00:28:11 <Sgeo> As in, ownership
00:28:33 <shachaf> ownership is a much more general concept than concurrency
00:28:59 <elliott> ownership is a much more general concept than currency
00:29:11 <Sgeo> But I think Rust's concurrency mechanism may use a concept of 'ownership' for different ... actor things, I guess? I don't know, I only half-remember reading Rust docs a long time ago
00:29:19 <kmc> Sgeo: they're sort of like std::unique_ptr I guess
00:29:42 <kmc> an owned box is allocated in the heap and is owned by exactly one variable (or structure field)
00:29:49 <Bike> you some kind of primitivist elliott!!!
00:29:58 <kmc> and so it can be deleted deterministically when that thing goes out of scope
00:30:10 <Sgeo> btw this website is the best ever
00:30:12 <Sgeo> http://143.228.193.in-addr.arpa/
00:30:26 <kmc> and yeah, I think the concurrent message passing stuff involves transfering ownership of these
00:30:28 <Sgeo> Well, the fact that that domain is pointing to a website
00:30:36 <kmc> Sgeo: every IPv4 address has such a name
00:30:44 <kmc> er, but you only have 3 octets there
00:30:46 <kmc> so mebbe not
00:31:46 <kmc> and managed boxes are garbage collected but can't be transferred between threads
00:31:47 * Sgeo wonders what other things in in-addr.arpa have records other than the reverse DNS one
00:31:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:54 <kmc> which means threads can GC independently
00:32:01 <kmc> this is my understanding after 5 min of reading
00:33:52 <Bike> elliott: how modern!
00:34:01 <Bike> wait rust has gc? huh
00:34:55 <Sgeo> I think you need objects to be explicit about needing to be GCed
00:35:07 <Sgeo> Before the sort of things that require GC are allowed
00:35:11 <Sgeo> Or was that an older version
00:35:24 <kmc> managed boxes are subject to GC
00:35:45 <kmc> Rust does the nice Haskell thing where immutable values are distinguished from variables and boxes (which may be mutable or not)
00:35:55 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:36:01 <kmc> i don't understand all of the mutability rules yet
00:36:24 <kmc> shachaf: the Servo dev I talked to today said that there are supposed to be fewer breaking changes in Rust going forward, and that yes there have been some nightmares recently
00:36:28 <Sgeo> Clojure does it too. Or would except for the whole Java compatibility thing
00:36:30 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, but only a subset of Rust objects are GC'd.
00:36:33 <kmc> so maybe it's a good time to learn Rust
00:37:17 <shachaf> kmc: I was going to use Rust for something once but all the breaking changes discouraged me.
00:37:20 <kmc> analogously there are also managed closures
00:37:34 <shachaf> So maybe I should use it now!
00:37:37 <kmc> the default kind of closure is allocated on the stack, and so is no good for returning functions
00:37:45 <elliott> Rust's stdlib seems kind of unusable.
00:37:49 <elliott> that's what's kept me from playing with it.
00:38:15 <Sgeo> Does Rust work on Windows?
00:38:28 <Sgeo> ..I'm not even running Windows right now, but I still want to know
00:38:49 <kmc> a working browser in Rust would itself be cool, but it's also cool because it will push rust and its stdlib to become more polished
00:39:08 <elliott> I thought the plan was just to build a rendering engine for now anyway
00:39:32 <kmc> they're using Spidermonkey for JS, and a bunch of other external libraries
00:39:37 <Sgeo> What does Rust do better than Haskell?
00:39:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: Act as a migration path for imperative coders? :P
00:39:56 <kmc> Sgeo: precise control over how objects are allocated
00:40:08 <kmc> Haskell programs heap-allocate everything and garbage collect all the time
00:40:27 <kmc> when you compile and run a Haskell program with GHC default settings, it's not uncommon to see that 90% of your time is spent in the garbage collector
00:40:54 <elliott> well that's a bit unfair :P
00:41:01 <kmc> Rust is a systems language in the vein of C++, except with nice modern language features, and actually memory-safe rather than just sort of hinting towards a style which is memory safe
00:41:01 <elliott> or rather just maybe misleading
00:41:08 <Sgeo> "unrecoverable unwinding with task isolation"
00:41:15 <kmc> so I think what pikhq said is unfair even though probably a joke
00:41:17 <Sgeo> I want a statically-typed language with recovering
00:41:17 <pikhq> And designed rather than accumulated.
00:41:25 <Bike> does it have.................. algebraic types
00:41:29 <pikhq> kmc: It was a joke.
00:41:32 <Sgeo> Bike, iirc yes
00:41:55 <Sgeo> I may be wrong though
00:42:02 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial.html#control-structures
00:42:37 <kmc> pikhq: I also disagree that C++ was "accumulated"
00:42:40 <pikhq> It's a fairly interesting language.
00:42:41 <Sgeo> Does it have Scheme-style macros? (I know it has some sort of syntactic ... thingy)
00:42:44 <kmc> the parts of C++ do fit together pretty well
00:43:00 <kmc> many people do not understand this because they don't know enough C++
00:43:07 <pikhq> kmc: Right, this is misleading. It's designed *wrong*, rather than being literally haphazard.
00:43:27 <kmc> C++ has an extremely awkward set of design goals
00:43:33 <kmc> I think what they produced is not so bad given these goals
00:43:41 <kmc> certainly they made some mistakes
00:43:43 <pikhq> But it ends up looking like a sort of mishmash, mostly because it is intended to have a large common subset with C.
00:43:51 <kmc> but I blame it on the goals more than the execution
00:44:00 <kmc> and yes being a ~superset of C is one of those really awkward goals
00:44:06 <kmc> they should have just made a C FFI like any other language
00:44:06 <pikhq> I consider the design goals 99% of what makes it "designed wrong".
00:44:14 <Sgeo> Is there a lens library for Rust?
00:44:21 <kmc> i don't know
00:44:54 <kmc> also screw scheme-style macros
00:44:59 <kmc> i want real metaprograms damnit
00:45:04 <pikhq> Ultimately *most* of the awkward bits there you can find out that the reason for is 'we really wanted foo to work, and this is literally the only way to get it to work with bar and baz."
00:46:09 <elliott> kmc: what do you mean by "real metaprograms"
00:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> did he just miss the part where it never specifies 'on earth's surface'
00:46:23 <elliott> I hope it is not "unsafe-by-default metaprograms"
00:46:29 <Bike> scheme-style and fuck-you style are copowerful so shruuuuug
00:46:52 <kmc> elliott: i meant I want to write Lisp programs that output Lisp programs
00:46:59 <kmc> not programs in some turing tarpit that output Lisp programs
00:47:16 <kmc> in my limited experience, it's pretty easy to do this safely if you have some kind of auto-gensym mechanism
00:47:19 <Sgeo> "For type casting, Rust uses the binary as operator. It takes an expression on the left side and a type on the right side and will, if a meaningful conversion exists, convert the result of the expression to the given type."
00:47:21 <Bike> i like that as far as i can tell oleg uses not-scheme macros
00:47:30 <elliott> gensym doesn't even give hygiene, so
00:47:49 <elliott> it gives one half of it but actually i've forgotten the other half since who cares about lisp
00:47:51 <Bike> i still don't understand hygeine being a problem, does that seriously happen?
00:48:04 <elliott> Q: do people make mistakes? A: yes
00:48:10 <kmc> of course my preferred system for hygenic metaprogramming is operatives
00:48:29 -!- olsner has joined.
00:48:37 <Sgeo> kmc, did you learn Tcl yet?
00:48:58 <elliott> tcl is easy to learn if you already know scheme
00:49:10 <Bike> i really need to get to completing my gf-operative-partial-evaluation fantasy
00:49:12 <Sgeo> ....is that "god no" a reaction mostly due to having heard rumors about Tcl, or some property of Tcl itself
00:49:27 <elliott> 1. imagine everything is strings 2. imagine you can access and poke into the scope of your callers (recursively)
00:49:59 <Sgeo> Tcl is a really bad language to try to learn by just trying to modify existing code
00:50:03 <Bike> generic function
00:50:07 <Sgeo> You need to learn the fundamentals of how it works
00:50:37 <Bike> in my efforts to figure out how the fuck to make kernel fast i've found that the main problem may be being unable to assume that an arbitrary calling-position-thing doesn't replace your environment's $define! with monkeys-out-ass
00:50:56 <Bike> i should just get rid of mutation, fuck mutation
00:51:01 <Bike> letrec fo lyfe
00:51:15 <kmc> can't we just throw a generic tracing JIT at it and handwave
00:51:18 <elliott> Bike: well scheme has a similar problem right
00:51:21 <kmc> someone already implemented Qoppa on PyPy
00:51:22 <elliott> you can rebind the global +
00:51:33 <Sgeo> kmc, I should do it on Racket eventually
00:51:35 <elliott> and suddenly your inner loop calls some slow ass bullshit
00:51:59 <Sgeo> kmc, and you should learn Tcl >.>
00:52:01 <Bike> elliott: well in kernel you can't redefine things in some toplevel environment
00:52:04 <elliott> (sort of think this kind of mutation which exposes "implementation details" should be banned, even by languages that allow mutation, though I'm not sure how to define exactly what makes it more objectionable or how you'd block it)
00:52:32 <Bike> mostly i just don't see why you'd want to do that really, defining things in a not-toplevel environment seems pointless
00:52:54 <Bike> as far as i can tell the kernel guy only does it because he's used to scheme's define-is-actually-letrec thing except that in kernel it's not
00:53:04 <elliott> i sort of hate kernel's naming scheme
00:53:11 <elliott> why does everything have a !
00:53:12 <Bike> so like every time you call map you redefine and reevaluate six auxillary functions
00:53:14 <elliott> even if it isn't really mutating things
00:53:31 <Bike> it mutates the environment...
00:53:31 <kmc> operatives have a $
00:53:45 <Sgeo> Mostly my problem with the language boils down to lack of closures, lack of quasiquoting, and not the best stdlib for functionalness
00:53:51 <elliott> Bike: sure but that's a kind of weak sense of mutation
00:53:57 <Sgeo> But it's still an interesting take on metaprogramming
00:53:57 <elliott> or does kernel not separate define and set!, I forget
00:54:00 <Bike> the environment is an object and you're changing it
00:54:10 <Bike> kernel doesn't have scheme's define
00:54:22 <Bike> buuuuut i honeslty have very little idea of what the fuck scheme's define is
00:54:44 <Bike> even if kernel's $define! causes me headaches i at least know what it does, and it's not second-class or whatever you call it
00:55:29 <Bike> anyway this is why i need to do my closures-as-partial-applications, fuck-mutation, recursively-define-eval-generically fantasy, so that i can show you all etc
00:55:54 <elliott> fuck you @ is way better than that
00:56:03 <elliott> i bet Bike's language doesn't even have dependent types
00:56:06 <Bike> maru! that was it
00:56:25 <Bike> i've been thinking about types actually, mostly because writing a type system in kernel seems like it might be kind of a pain
00:56:37 <kmc> static types?
00:56:41 <Bike> of course i'm used to tres inferior CL types, aka do whatever the fuck you want types
00:56:43 <kmc> that could be real difficult yeah
00:56:53 <Bike> welllll i'm used to types being a compilation aid
00:57:02 <pikhq> Clearly, @ is the language such that it is greater than each other language.
00:57:15 <Bike> i'm thinking in the partial evaluator you can bind x to a type of integers, rather than a specific integers, and then the optimizer can get to work bla bla bla
00:57:18 <pikhq> That is, there is a maximum language, and it is @.
00:57:21 <elliott> well, lisp + type system is [siren][slide whistle][bark][alarm][falling down stairs][car crash][advertising jingle]
00:57:39 <kmc> elliott: [face shoved in toilet]
00:57:50 <Bike> elliott: it's gonna be great when you define the macro expansion of @ and get gregor to alter the logs
00:57:55 <Bike> and all these lines are like super long
00:58:13 <kmc> `quote in.toilet
00:58:13 <elliott> what if @'s name is zero characters WHAT THEN
00:58:15 <HackEgo> 988) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
00:58:28 <Bike> elliott: that's boring. you're better than that.
00:58:44 <Bike> Now you're talking.
00:59:00 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:59:45 <mnoqy> the only @ quote im remembering right now is
00:59:54 <HackEgo> 451) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
01:00:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24051
01:00:20 <kmc> if I move to CA i'm going to buy a vaporizer
01:00:37 <Bike> did somebody seriously /ignore fungot and then brag about it.
01:00:38 <fungot> Bike: more and a larger rate increases of more if they please. received request on any of the ( i am to get an enron/ dynegy pricing.
01:01:05 <Bike> 892 is great imo
01:01:10 <elliott> Bike: that's V*rpal back from when he was even worse
01:01:11 <kmc> `quote 892
01:01:12 <HackEgo> 892) * GreyKnight puts some cookies inside a forcefield ⌇⌇ o o o ⌇⌇ <GreyKnight> what now c00kiemon5ter?!? * c00kiemon5ter omnomnomnomnomnomnomnom <GreyKnight> but how did he get through the forcefield?!? @u@ <c00kiemon5ter> I did not! the cookielicious force within me grew outside the forcefield absording the crumbles <GreyKnight> dar
01:01:31 <elliott> Bike: also I _think_ I may have been using fungot to evade his /ignore of me at the time.
01:01:31 <fungot> elliott: average 1 to the their site did not do any days next two to the all the business that the corporate parent.
01:01:43 <kmc> ok am I somehow hallucinating the idea that the Linux kernel used to have a driver for the Rez Trance Vibrator?
01:01:49 <Bike> elliott: lol ol ol.
01:01:53 <Bike> kmc: i've heard that too
01:01:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:02:03 <Bike> everything should have rez support
01:02:21 <kmc> i can't find it in 2.6.12-rc2 /or/ 3.9
01:02:28 <kmc> maybe it was removed in 2.6
01:02:45 <Bike> what functions does the thing even have
01:02:50 <Bike> you can change intensity?
01:03:04 <Bike> "Rez TranceVibrator: OS X/Linux Drivers and fingerd Client" this has got to be intentional
01:03:32 <Bike> "This program is a rudimentary teledildonics application built around the finger daemon - hence bringing generations of CS undergrad innuendo full circle."
01:03:34 <elliott> meanwhile, reminder that the phrase "teledildonics" exists
01:03:51 <Bike> okay this program is actually great.
01:04:15 * kmc downloads http://archive.org/download/git-history-of-linux/full-history-linux.git.tar
01:04:32 <Bike> "<< Today in Japanese Amputee Sex Doll news"
01:04:39 <elliott> kmc: wouldn't it be faster to clone from actual git
01:04:40 <Bike> how long is the full history of linux
01:04:47 <elliott> or is linux's actual git truncated???
01:04:47 <kmc> over 50 feet
01:04:52 <elliott> even though that's sort of impossible
01:05:00 <kmc> http://www.monochrom.at/arse-elektronika/ nsfw i guess
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01:05:09 <Bike> what source control was linux originally on
01:05:15 <Bike> confession i know actually shit about linux
01:05:15 <kmc> tarballs and patches
01:05:18 <pikhq> elliott: Linus's git is truncated because it only goes back to the start of Linus version controlling.
01:05:26 <Bike> i meant like, when it got version control, though
01:05:29 <kmc> which is actually a better system than CVS it turns out
01:05:36 <elliott> Bike: it was on bitkeeper for a while
01:05:38 <Bike> or did it have nothing before git
01:05:40 <elliott> maybe you knew that though
01:05:45 <kmc> the live Git repo goes back to 2.6.12-rc2; people have reconstructed repos for older
01:05:46 <Bike> what's bitkeeper
01:05:50 <elliott> and then there was a shitstorm re: bitkeeper relating to its proprietariness
01:06:04 <elliott> that was before hg and stuff really existed (hg was written as a candidate for linux I think)
01:06:12 <elliott> the state of the art in DVCSes was like bitkeeper, darcs, monotone
01:06:14 <kmc> hg is also too slow to handle Linux, i think
01:06:18 <Bike> wow i googed "bitkeeper" and the very third link is somebody complaining about linux using it.
01:06:18 <kmc> or at least would have been back in the day
01:06:30 <Bike> linux*, but whatever.
01:06:34 <elliott> Bike: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitKeeper
01:06:41 <Bike> i can't fucking type that name any more
01:06:46 <elliott> in particular "Pricing change"
01:06:46 <kmc> Git was designed to handle huge repos quickly, which may have been a dumb design goal for a VCS in general, but is something the Linux team legitimately needed
01:07:14 <Bike> "Even after this addition, flamewars[8]"
01:07:20 <elliott> it was actually byran o'sullivan who had to stop working on hg
01:07:29 <elliott> rather than some random person
01:07:37 <kmc> he wrote a hg book
01:07:50 <elliott> i think i vaguely recall that yeah
01:07:54 <Bike> man i'm so glad i'm too naïve to care about version control.
01:08:03 <kmc> just use git because it's Good Enough and it's standard
01:08:17 <elliott> it's sort of interesting that darcs in 2005 was in some ways even then better than git is today
01:08:21 <Bike> that's 'very pathetic'
01:09:23 <kmc> lol @ people who believe in progress in CS
01:09:53 <Bike> elliott: pretty sure you're going to have to make @ at least negative ten characters to make this work.
01:10:00 <elliott> i sort of get tempted to use darcs occasionally
01:10:07 <elliott> and git is annoying in several ways
01:10:14 <pikhq> Hey, at least freaking CVS is dying.
01:10:35 <kmc> at my job in 2009-2010 we still had a CVS->Git import cronjob
01:10:48 <kmc> because a few people refused to learn Git and were too important to be told they had to
01:11:01 <elliott> but if anyone wants to read about truly bizarre software design
01:11:03 <Bike> everybody's said anything, nothing is novel
01:11:06 <elliott> read the GNU arch aka tla docs/tutorial
01:11:06 <kmc> elliott: github is also annoying in several ways
01:11:25 <pikhq> kmc: Why not git-cvsserver?
01:11:30 <elliott> tl;dr distributed version control in the early 2000s was fucking weird
01:11:33 <kmc> pikhq: i don't know, i didn't set it up (thank god)
01:11:38 <elliott> kmc: this is true but it's also convenient and have you seen the equivalent sites for darcs and stuff
01:11:46 <kmc> what about bitbucket
01:11:53 <elliott> bitbucket does not do darcs afaik
01:12:00 <kmc> i think it has rough feature parity, plus free private repos
01:12:04 <kmc> yeah I didn't mean for darcs specifically
01:12:14 <elliott> bitbucket is ok, I prefer github's ui
01:12:15 <kmc> also it lets you check out a hg repo as git or vice versa, I think
01:12:19 <kmc> which is pretty neat
01:12:23 <elliott> I also remember when bitbucket's UI was basically a straight clone of github's at the time
01:12:38 <kmc> i have a few gripes with github's UI plus the company is annoying brogrammers or something
01:12:50 <elliott> i don't really believe in "git/hg interoperability"
01:12:55 <elliott> since git has the whole rebase culture and stuff going on
01:13:15 <Bike> "rebase culture" should be about drugs imo
01:13:16 <Gregor> I prefer bitbucket to github, and have always been fairly happy with my clone-all-my-hgs-to-git style of interop.
01:13:32 <kmc> it's funny how people always talk about merging as a major feature of git, yet a lot of projects use rebases only
01:13:40 <kmc> it's just a lot simpler
01:14:03 <kmc> but occasionally you do miss having merge history recorded
01:14:04 <elliott> really i'd like to use scapegoat and goatpen, thanks in advance
01:14:11 <Gregor> (Also, hg can do rebase, it just can't erase history, so you don't lose the original -base)
01:14:31 <elliott> kmc: i like how you realised how horrible a mistake asking what something is in #esoteric is before you finished that line
01:14:45 <kmc> nah just too lazy to type
01:14:55 <Bike> Q: has some nerd somewhere used vcs to write, say, a novel
01:15:03 <elliott> scapegoat is ais's vapourware VCS design
01:15:09 <elliott> goatpen is obviously what you'd call a scapegoat hosting site
01:15:20 <kmc> no i would buy goatse.cx
01:15:23 <elliott> Bike: sure, but probably more commonly papers and stuff
01:15:28 <kmc> Goat Software Exchange
01:15:31 <elliott> i'm sure the history of that goes back to RCS and stuff
01:15:34 -!- olsner has joined.
01:15:37 <elliott> why *wouldn't* you version control it
01:15:47 <kmc> i think SIPB still keeps meeting notes in RCS
01:15:56 <pikhq> www.goatsexchange.com
01:16:06 <elliott> scapegoat's design is cool but I forget if ais523 worked out the problems it had
01:16:11 <Bike> my problem with this is that goats are kind of jerks
01:17:09 <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
01:17:21 <elliott> kmc: btw are the github devs actually bad, I don't really know anything about it as a company
01:17:33 <elliott> i guess i should probably assume web 2.0 companies are bad by default
01:17:41 <Sgeo> I finally know why Chrome keeps crashign when I close a popup
01:17:49 <Sgeo> [858788.405914] chrome[14158]: segfault at 55e ip 005216c0 sp bfeb9580 error 4 in libgobject-2.0.so.0.2600.1[4f8000+41000]
01:17:56 <kmc> they're inordinately proud of their dumb "hot forking action" pun as a sign that they're hip and cool and not corporate
01:17:59 <kmc> http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/07/how-github-used.html
01:18:19 <kmc> they finally removed it
01:18:23 <kmc> years after a bunch of people complained
01:18:28 <elliott> i've groaned at that before yeah
01:18:36 <elliott> do i really want to click this 37signals link
01:18:41 <elliott> do i really want to click any 37signals link
01:18:49 <kmc> i love all this posturing over having cool "corporate culture"
01:19:10 <kmc> it boils down to reversing the superficial aspects of traditional companies while badly misunderstanding why these things exist
01:19:11 <Sgeo> I've used campfire before
01:19:13 <Bike> software companies should just use autogestion, obviously
01:19:20 <kmc> http://blog.prettylittlestatemachine.com/blog/2013/02/20/what-your-culture-really-says
01:19:32 <elliott> Having very little money, very little time, and a lot of passion leaves few options. You pretty much have to do what Jason, David, and the boys say. It's the smartest way to succeed.
01:19:34 <Bike> i'm not going to click any of these links
01:19:45 <kmc> Bike: no you should click the one i just sent
01:19:45 <Bike> thanks for demonstrating why, elliott.
01:19:46 <elliott> now accepting bets wrt how much "very little money" actually was
01:19:55 <kmc> elliott: they didn't take any funding
01:20:00 <kmc> maybe they were already rich though
01:20:10 <elliott> pretty little hate machine
01:20:55 <Bike> ok i glanced at the link, seemed pretty normal in terms of things i already know + reasons i want to work in a nice sensible culture like academia instead (insert five minutes of tearful laughter)
01:21:13 <elliott> maybe i should work on implementing scapegoat again, as if i don't already have enough things to do
01:21:16 <kmc> ksplice didn't take outside investing but had loans from founders + govt grants + prize money
01:21:33 <kmc> some glibertarian blog wrote about how ksplice was cool tech but you shouldn't use it because it's funded by stolen blood money
01:23:15 <kmc> Bike: it's just a pretty good takedown of the standard "corporate culture" memes
01:23:33 <kmc> and the oblivious self-congratulation of web startup land
01:23:37 <Bike> i'm just not sure i need such a takedown is all
01:23:47 <kmc> you must not enjoy hating on things as much as i do
01:23:55 <Bike> i'm afraid it's true
01:24:00 <kmc> also it is more actually relevant to me, it's true
01:24:12 <Bike> yeah, that too, i've never even been employed `-`
01:24:21 * kmc is moving to SF and needs to not fall into the web startup bubble
01:24:30 <Bike> possibly a bit early to go all socialist radical??? who knows
01:24:30 <elliott> imo kmc should give me a job complaining about things
01:24:40 <pikhq> I've got a friend working at a web startup.
01:24:42 <Bike> i'm pretty sure kmc has got that department covered
01:24:45 <kmc> they say that the only people who made money in the gold rush were the people selling shovels and pickaxes (and booze and hookers)
01:24:48 <pikhq> He spends more time than is healthy talking about how Ruby sucks.
01:25:10 <kmc> what about it pikhq
01:25:23 <elliott> ok well kmc should give me a job not implementing @ then
01:25:26 <pikhq> Almost everything in it.
01:25:46 <kmc> i've not written much Ruby but i have a hard time getting worked up about the differences between (say) Ruby, Python, and JavaScript
01:25:55 <Bike> elliott: better kickstart it
01:25:56 <kmc> except I think the Python community has better taste in sane API design
01:26:08 <pikhq> Ruby is PHP for the brogrammer.
01:26:11 <kmc> and the Ruby people (mainly Rails people) go nuts for DSLs that look slick but have incoherent semantics
01:26:25 <kmc> i don't have a great example or really know what I'm talking about, though
01:26:38 <Bike> ruby dsls frighten me
01:26:39 <copumpkin> that ruby list comprehension that looks like haskell? :P
01:26:50 <Bike> like sure you can do that but /why/
01:27:07 <Bike> https://room208.org/qdb/917
01:27:14 <kmc> Bike: why? because it looks great in a fancy font at 72pt on your website
01:27:24 <Bike> those sites are the worst
01:27:35 <kmc> remember that beginners can't tell good semantics from bad but they can detect "elegant syntax"
01:28:00 <kmc> elegance = if you read all the alphabetic tokens in order, it sounds kind of like an english sentence
01:28:30 <Bike> i'm pretty sure 'elegance' doesn't mean anything
01:28:33 <Bike> i think i'm just a nihilist.
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01:28:53 <ais523> <elliott> scapegoat's design is cool but I forget if ais523 worked out the problems it had ← I'm not sure if I did or not, it was all theoretical and we probably wouldn't discover some of the problems until practice?
01:28:57 <kmc> Bike: i think it might mean something but at best it's gratuitously overused
01:29:22 <elliott> ais523: i think there was some big problem with merges
01:29:25 <kmc> you can't talk about your project being 'elegant' and 'minimal' if you don't say what your concrete design goals are
01:29:38 <ais523> elliott: the problem was with conflict resolution, I thought
01:29:39 <kmc> and even if you do say, making it 'minimal' wrt those goals is just basic competence in engineering
01:29:40 <Bike> concrete doesn't sound very elegant!
01:29:45 <ais523> (and reverts are a special case of conflict resolution)
01:29:53 <copumpkin> you know what bugs me? test frameworks (in all sorts of languages these days) that have english-y statements
01:29:58 <kmc> but these people don't want to be engineers, they want to be special snowflake hacker painter craftspeople
01:30:19 <elliott> ais523: right, maybe (reverts aren't just about conflict resolution, you can decide to revert without a conflict)
01:30:33 <ais523> the conflict is if someone edits the pre-revert version
01:33:29 <Bike> the test framework i usually use has a function "is", so you write (is (= value 5)) or something i guess that looks like code enough
01:34:31 <kmc> i don't mind things having cute names, but you shouldn't design the whole API and the meaning and type of every function around what makes the cute names work best
01:34:57 <kmc> it's the same problem as abuse of operator overloading, I guess
01:35:19 <Sgeo> Are the lens types an abuse of (.)'s type?
01:35:25 <kmc> i don't know
01:35:29 <Bike> hey kmc since you're like the only person here who likes C++, what do you think of the >> << thing with io
01:35:36 <Sgeo> If Prelude's . was the more generalized version, would Lens types be more sane?
01:35:43 <kmc> Bike: I don't like iostreams, I tend to use stdio even in C++
01:35:47 <kmc> it's just too verbose
01:35:50 <elliott> people just whine because ghci expands them
01:35:53 <Bike> personally it like
01:35:59 <elliott> and also edwardk went a bit crazy with index preserving stuff at one point
01:36:01 <kmc> the abuse of operator<< is kind of gross but not the major objection
01:36:03 <Bike> i think that syntax confused the hell out of me more than anything else in programming for years
01:36:09 <elliott> in particular lens' subtyping relies on being done exactly how it is done
01:36:10 <Bike> since i was learning when i was like ten, but
01:36:13 <zzo38> I think it should use the . from Category (and since -> is also a category it still work)
01:36:14 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:36:14 <elliott> it's not a "workaround" for not having Category or whatever
01:36:25 <kmc> the main thing iostreams gives you (besides just weird and verbose syntax) is that it lets every type define its own "how to print me" and "how to read me" methods
01:36:28 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 19h 55m 31s ago: http://www.gophercon.com/
01:36:36 <Bike> oh, that's always cool.
01:36:37 <kmc> sort of the C++ version of Show or __str__ or whatever
01:36:40 <elliott> kmc: you know what's great about that
01:36:46 <kmc> so there are some contexts where you want it
01:36:47 <elliott> guess what int8_ts get printed as
01:36:56 <kmc> because it's a transparent typedef
01:37:01 <Bike> i bet you can read them again though!!
01:37:06 <kmc> i bet there's an iomanip to change that :<
01:37:24 <Bike> or does it not have a "if it prints it should read in as the same thing" sort of restriction
01:37:24 <kmc> also bools get printed as 1 or 0 by default iirc
01:38:12 <NihilistDandy> As this is esoteric, does anyone know about configuring the Factor listener? #concatenative is less than chatty
01:38:22 <Bike> maybe sgeo knows
01:38:52 <kmc> i should learn how to use http://portswigger.net/burp/ for this interview
01:39:22 <Bike> attractive naming sense
01:39:28 <elliott> copumpkin: hey do you want an assignment? make the epigram blog not be down. I expect it done within the hour
01:39:37 <kmc> http://portswigger.net/screenshots/proxy_1.png classy password imo
01:39:50 <zzo38> I have had ideas about to improve the C, which is different from C++, such as to add a +|^ and -&~^ operators.
01:39:51 <Bike> looks cool though
01:39:52 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, when does it give that error?
01:39:57 <Sgeo> When trying to start Factor with the new rc?
01:40:19 <elliott> copumpkin: you've found a way to accomplish it already!
01:40:22 <elliott> i'm so proud of you, copumpkin
01:40:27 <Sgeo> What did you change?
01:41:37 <elliott> that means i'm the opposite of proud of you copumpkin
01:41:41 <elliott> for not having the job done already!!
01:41:57 <NihilistDandy> It works once I'm in the listener, but loading for the first time gives me the error
01:42:11 <Sgeo> Maybe wrong rc file?
01:42:18 * Sgeo is trying to find the docs on the rc files
01:42:46 <Sgeo> Also, that IN: scratchpad seems a bit odd, but I don't think it would cause that error
01:42:50 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, the docs were less than helpful. I tried it in ~/.factor-rc and ~/.factor-boot-rc
01:43:04 <NihilistDandy> That was just something I saw in another rc on github
01:43:42 <elliott> does anyone know where i should move my vps btw
01:43:43 * kmc tries and fails to feed a small insect to the flytrap
01:44:40 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-ui-listener.html
01:44:44 <Sgeo> Has a sample RC
01:44:48 <Sgeo> It only has the USING:
01:45:40 <Bike> it's all part of the circle of life copumpkin
01:45:56 <copumpkin> so I had a train derailment not far from here!
01:46:06 <kmc> yeah i heard about that, was anyone hurt?
01:46:09 <Bike> did you survive
01:46:18 <copumpkin> apparently a few in bad shape though
01:46:22 <elliott> i heard about that in #haskell-blah
01:46:43 <Sgeo> Is Linode disliked these days?
01:46:43 <kmc> \rainbow{american infrastructure}
01:46:45 <kmc> "Reuters quotes Fairfield police spokesman Matt Panilaitis as saying none of those involved in the accident were believed to be suffering from life-threatening injuries."
01:46:52 <kmc> Sgeo: they got hacked but i haven't heard anything else bad
01:46:57 <elliott> Sgeo: linode is disliked a bit by me
01:47:10 <elliott> for the being hacked multiple times thing
01:47:19 <elliott> also linode is the reason lambdabot is slow now "just unacceptable"
01:48:07 <kmc> multiple times?
01:48:14 <Sgeo> They seem to give more for the money than prgmr, but they don't have plans as cheap as prgmr has
01:48:22 <elliott> i moved away from prgmr for performance reasons
01:48:29 <kmc> EC2 micro instance is free for a year
01:48:35 <kmc> Sgeo: what do you want to use your VM for
01:48:40 <elliott> also for i managed to not pay for 3 months reasons, oops
01:48:46 <Sgeo> kmc, probably nothing particularly intensive
01:48:54 <elliott> kmc: the first time was like their security thing got hacked and this gave them root access to a specific server (!!) or something
01:49:02 <kmc> i wonder when my free trial is up
01:49:14 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, hmm... maybe you need to delay your code from running until the UI is set up
01:49:19 <elliott> the second time was "hey our database was hacked, change your passwords"
01:49:25 <elliott> kind of feeling not confident in them
01:49:30 <Sgeo> Try commenting-out the actual code and leaving the USING: and seeing if you get the same error
01:49:35 <elliott> isn't EC2 expensive for something you run 24/7
01:49:37 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: I was thinking that, but I have no idea how to delay.
01:49:45 <elliott> also i kind of like how my linode is in london
01:49:50 <elliott> so the low latency is really nice
01:50:20 <elliott> oh what, i'm entitled to 1 gig of ram on my linode for free
01:50:26 <elliott> and they never emailed me about it i guess?
01:50:42 <elliott> oh but the machine will go down for 20 minutes to do it
01:50:47 <elliott> can i stand being away from irc for that long
01:51:21 <Jafet> Ask oerjan to logread for you
01:51:30 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Maybe I need the USING: in my boot-rc and the font setting in the runtime one?
01:51:37 <elliott> Full disclosure: the new plans are $0.05 more expensive per month. We did this to get rid of the legacy $19.95, $39.95, $59.95, etc pricing model in favor of a simpler $20, $40, $60 model. The upgrade is not mandatory, so if you’re not down with the 5 cent increase you can keep your existing resources and pricing.
01:51:47 <elliott> it literally says the upgrade is free in the UI
01:52:00 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, I'm thinking you need to put the code in some quotation that will hold onto the command until it's ready
01:52:13 <Jafet> @google full disclosure
01:52:13 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure
01:52:14 <lambdabot> Title: Full disclosure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
01:52:29 <kmc> i love it when I run a program and it just does nothing and reports no error and returns exit code 0
01:52:52 <kmc> elliott: EC2 is expensive for 24/7 but it's what all startups do anyway because it's the cool thing and they have too much money
01:53:01 <kmc> and they have delusions of needing to scale quickly, but their code won't support it anyway
01:53:07 <Jafet> Well, it's not their money
01:53:21 <kmc> no it pretty much is
01:53:21 <elliott> i forgot how fucking complicated EC2's pricing is
01:53:39 <kmc> if you sell stock and get cash, that cash is yours
01:53:43 <kmc> just like selling anything else
01:54:03 <Sgeo> NihilistDandy, I think bootstrap RC would just not happen until you boot up from a freshly bootstrapped image
01:54:07 <Sgeo> I may be understanding wrong
01:54:11 <kmc> it's the company's money and it's the employees' money in proportion to their own ownership share
01:54:18 <kmc> the main thing is that they have lots of money and expect to be able to raise more
01:54:22 <pikhq> EC2 makes a lot of sense if you're going to spin up some instances for a bit. But *jesus* is it pricy 24/7.
01:54:27 <kmc> but if you raise a bunch of money and then squander it, people won't want to give you more
01:54:36 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo: Yeah, there aren't a whole of references for it. :/
01:54:38 <pikhq> It amazes me that anything uses it that way.
01:54:54 <NihilistDandy> Hopefully someone on #concatenative will know. Or maybe I just have to save the image when I have it to my liking
01:55:07 <lambdabot> alexbagel says: i find that my first 26 variables are always easy to name. after that it becomes a bit harder.
01:55:08 <Bike> hm, the virology blog went down, why did it go down
01:55:13 <lambdabot> SimonMarlow says: This is the largest program (in terms of memory requirements) I've ever seen anyone run using GHC. In fact there was no machine in our building capable of running it, I had to
01:55:13 <lambdabot> fire up the largest Amazon EC2 instance available (68GB) to debug it - this bug cost me $26.
01:55:27 <kmc> (it's also not strictly in proportion to share, because the funding shares will have a liquidity preference attached)
01:55:50 <pikhq> Micro instances aren't quite so bad, but... yeah
01:55:58 <kmc> Ksplice used EC2 instances to build new kernel when they came out
01:56:04 <Sgeo> So, what has cheap options like prgmr but don't assume you're an expert?
01:56:10 <kmc> we used spot instances which are even cheaper
01:56:19 <kmc> it's good for that kind of intermittent batch processing
01:56:33 <pikhq> Hmm. EC2 micro is $15 a month, which ain't that bad.
01:56:48 <elliott> that would be a $5 saving for me
01:57:10 <Sgeo> I think since I doubt I'd use it that much, $20 or $25 a month is a bit excessive
01:57:21 <Bike> how much do y'all play for 'computer things'
01:59:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is "DNA Mad Scientist" a good episode?
02:00:20 <kmc> a micro is pretty wimpy
02:00:32 <kmc> it has a reasonable max performance but it'll throttle back randomly
02:00:40 <Jafet> http://linode.com looks so overpriced
02:00:52 <elliott> Jafet: in comparison to what
02:00:56 <Sgeo> Jafet, it seems underpriced compared to prgmr :/
02:01:14 <Sgeo> Why is prgmr so expensive
02:01:22 <pikhq> A micro instance probably makes no sense for anyone who gives a damn about processor usage.
02:01:23 <kmc> someone has to pay for vowel removal
02:01:24 <elliott> is it going to take another 5 questions to determine what that is and where it is
02:01:34 <Jafet> @google heztner robot
02:01:35 <lambdabot> http://www.wepoca.net/setup-proxmox-on-hetzner-server
02:01:36 <lambdabot> Title: how to setup Proxmox VE 2.x on Hetzner EX4 server | wepoca
02:01:49 <elliott> Sgeo: when i switched to linode prgmr's prices were comparable to linode's for comparable machines
02:01:50 <Jafet> @google hetzner robot
02:01:53 <elliott> maybe the linode upgrades have changed that though
02:02:20 <elliott> that https://robot.your-server.de/ site is uh
02:03:23 <Jafet> Hm, it used to be a dutch auction
02:03:31 <Jafet> Not a log-in prompt
02:04:03 <Jafet> https://robot.your-server.de/order/market
02:04:28 <Jafet> It's still a dutch auction
02:04:49 <Bike> terms and policies for: nothing
02:06:02 <elliott> also the cheapest one is $30?
02:06:08 <elliott> which is... $15 more than i'm paying linode
02:06:15 <elliott> so i don't really see how linode is overpriced
02:06:40 <elliott> i mean it has better specs, sure
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02:07:03 <Jafet> Yes, they don't do vps
02:07:31 <pikhq> If you're going to use a micro instance 24/7 it looks as though you should instead use a reserved instance.
02:07:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:07:51 <pikhq> Which comes out to $8.81 a month for a year, or $105.80 per year.
02:07:58 <pikhq> (note that $62 of that is up-front)
02:08:25 <elliott> what do you get for $20 a month
02:08:41 <pikhq> Goes all the way down to $6.42 if you can stomach paying $100 for 3 years upfront
02:08:53 <Jafet> I don't think I've run any computer 24/7 for a year
02:09:09 <Jafet> Or even for most of a year
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02:09:11 <elliott> also are any EC2s in the UK / can you guarantee getting one in the UK
02:09:12 <pikhq> Small instance is $24.
02:09:16 <elliott> Jafet: well hosting stuff...
02:09:19 <elliott> or do you just mean because of reboots and stuff
02:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: If by "UK" you mean "Ireland". :P
02:09:49 <Jafet> Also I'd think if you want 24/7 hosting you wouldn't use amazlol
02:09:57 <elliott> ireland works for me, sure
02:10:24 <pikhq> A small instance is... $15.90 a month if you pay $257 upfront for 3 years.
02:10:46 <pikhq> The charge-per-month is including the upfront.
02:10:55 <pikhq> Sans up-front it's $8.76
02:11:09 <elliott> i couldn't actually find details on what micro/small/etc. get you on the ec2 website
02:11:12 <elliott> probably because i gave up quickly
02:12:16 <elliott> maybe i should be cool and run my server on nixos
02:12:29 <pikhq> Wikipedia seems helpful.
02:15:48 <Jafet> Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia of AWS pricing tables
02:16:22 <kmc> a lot of things about EC2 seem pointlessly complicated
02:16:37 <kmc> pricing may be pointfully complicated in order to trick people into paying more
02:17:02 <elliott> sort of seems like the reason it's "hip" is probably related to how impossible it is to figure out anything about it
02:17:14 <pikhq> It's definitely non-trivial to find what the cheap way of getting a certain amount of resources is.
02:17:38 <elliott> i sort of hate running "a server" anyway
02:18:38 <elliott> it would be nice if i could just run "a mysql" (ok it would be nice if i didn't have to run mysql at all) and "an nginx with php" (ditto on the php) and configure the latter to have access to the former and it'd be arranged that they're on the same server when reasonable or whatever
02:18:47 <elliott> and it could automatically be migrated across servers and stuff
02:18:58 <Jafet> There's probably a startup for that
02:19:08 <elliott> and then i could run "an irssi" separately and the cost would be proportional to the resources of just the stuff i actually run
02:19:22 <elliott> i think heroku does something vaguely like this but probably not as pain-free as i'd like
02:19:40 <pikhq> Aaah, these figures also don't include the cost of any data storage.
02:20:03 <pikhq> $0.10 per GB per month.
02:20:10 <Jafet> elliott: can you port an irssi to node.js
02:20:15 <pikhq> Not too bad considering that'll just be your root FS, but still.
02:20:32 <kmc> the oldschool very uncool type of "shared web hosting" is also like this
02:20:34 <elliott> but like i'm not attached to having to upgrade the system as root manually or deal with organising a unix filesystem or whatever
02:20:37 <kmc> i.e. giving you "an nginx with php"
02:20:59 <elliott> seems like it would be simpler if that was handled for you since things like distros honestly don't matter beyond the versions of the software you actually care about
02:21:04 <elliott> kmc: right it is sort of like shared hosting
02:21:17 <elliott> except you'd want (a) more guarantees about what resources you get so it's closer to a VPS type offering
02:21:28 <elliott> (b) the ability to run arbitrary blobs of code if you want
02:21:33 <Jafet> nginx is russian nu-wave, man, oldskool is all about the apache 1.x
02:21:37 <elliott> (with proper network access etc.)
02:21:42 <elliott> (c) probably something else I'm forgetting
02:21:51 <elliott> but also there's no reason why all the stuff you run should be on one server
02:21:58 <zzo38> What else should be have is to run additional internet services, perhaps.
02:22:06 <elliott> just that stuff that has access to other stuff you run should ideally be automatically rigged to be "close"
02:22:11 <elliott> (maybe not on the exact same server all the time)
02:23:20 <elliott> (like, there could be servers optimised for running databases that the mysql would automatically prefer to be on by default, and the php would just communicate to the "nearest one" over the datacentre network)
02:23:32 <Jafet> e "server admin is hard wish I could pay a startup to do it for me" hird
02:23:44 <elliott> it's not hard it's just annoying
02:24:46 <elliott> i mean i keep it running but it's kind of annoying that i have to worry about things like "if i upgrade the RAM for esolangs.org then I will also be without my main IRC client for 20 minutes" because my IRC client is basically fundamentally disconnected from that
02:25:03 <elliott> with the only real connection being that I am paying the same company to give me the resources to run it
02:25:23 <Jafet> Migrate the vm of your irc client to another server
02:26:00 <elliott> then i have to pay twice as much despite using the same amount of resources
02:26:07 <elliott> and upgrade twice as many machines etc.
02:26:32 <Bike> so to sum up, you hate everything.
02:26:40 <Jafet> Migrate it to an ec2
02:27:03 <Bike> Maybe you should take up Taoism.
02:27:13 <Jafet> Make a startup that charges people ridiculous amounts of money to move their irssi vm's to ec2
02:27:22 <Jafet> It will probably work
02:28:32 <elliott> anyway kmc should be complaining not me imo
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03:03:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_the_logreader: HOLY SHIT
03:11:54 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of extensions to C programming? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/black_c.txt
03:12:37 <Bike> not c99? mandating 2's complement?
03:13:18 <kmc> i'm in favor of mandating 2's complement for sure
03:13:33 <kmc> rather I think there should be a standard addendum to ISO 9899 which mandates sensible things like 2's complement
03:13:41 <kmc> and compilers can advertise that they comply with this addendum
03:13:47 <kmc> and weird systems can just stick with ISO 9899 proper
03:14:03 <Bike> ooh, local typedefs, cool
03:14:35 <Bike> is the ?: just short circuiting or
03:15:01 <zzo38> Bike: It is like the || in JavaScript, but not like the || in C.
03:15:18 <Bike> What's the difference with C? (/me bad at C obviously)
03:15:24 <zzo38> This ?: with nothing in between is same as in GNU C; a few of the things I listed are same as in Gnu C, even if not specified.
03:15:31 <zzo38> Bike: In C it is always boolean.
03:15:38 <zzo38> Therefore, the result is 1 and 0.
03:15:58 <Bike> «You can use "inline" with the same purpose as in GNU89 mode.» what's that?
03:18:57 <zzo38> See http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.3.6/gcc/Inline.html#Inline for information of the different inlining modes in GCC.
03:20:51 <Bike> #macro seems like it could be kinda nice, those \ lines always seem so dumb
03:21:27 <Bike> this macro {} thing, that's your way of saying you can specify parameters to the macro like a block or array access instead of a function call?
03:23:56 <Bike> constructors and destructors for automatic variables, huh.
03:30:00 <elliott> yo Bike make my computer faster
03:31:52 <Bike> do you mean like your computer or your linode or what
03:33:35 <pikhq> kmc: It's easy to write ISO 9899 C that also needs 2's complement.
03:33:52 <pikhq> kmc: int32_t and such *are* 2's complement (iff they exist)
03:34:01 <kmc> oh, really
03:34:19 <kmc> if they don't exist, does stdint.h also not exist?
03:34:20 <pikhq> Which also means POSIX systems must have 2's complement types.
03:34:31 <pikhq> stdint.h does, but it won't contain those types.
03:34:41 <kmc> is there a macro to test if they exist?
03:34:54 <kmc> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64) AppleWebKit/537.31 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/26.0.1410.43 Safari/537.31
03:35:00 <kmc> THIS IS WHAT USER AGENTS REALLY BELIEVE
03:35:14 <pikhq> Well, there is one actually that's not meant as such but can be used.
03:35:21 <pikhq> INT32_MIN and friends. :)
03:35:44 <pikhq> Defined in stdint.h for each type defined in stdint.h
03:36:06 <pikhq> Also, POSIX requires the types for 8, 16, and 32 bits.
03:36:16 <pikhq> (both signed and unsigned)
03:37:14 <pikhq> zzo38: So, looks to me like you're defining a subset of GNU C that's relatively easy to implement.
03:38:11 <pikhq> FWIW the unnamed struct/union thing is in C11.
03:38:31 <zzo38> pikhq: Kind of, but some things I defined are not in GNU C.
03:38:44 <pikhq> Aaand I got to the first of those.
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03:40:10 <pikhq> Setting it up so you can use structs as a scope?
03:40:23 <pikhq> I like the #macro block I think.
03:40:43 <pikhq> Oh, look, and you made it TC. How nice. :P
03:41:32 <pikhq> I utterly love #binary.
03:41:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Neat stuff.
03:42:07 <Bike> yo elliott this takes time
03:42:16 <Bike> maybe ask for someone to make your computer-fasterer faster himself??
03:42:16 <pikhq> I take it you're thinking of macro assemblers?
03:42:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, some of the features are based on those of macro assemblers.
03:42:54 <Bike> elliott: i'm not qualified. do you want me to commit fraud
03:43:03 <elliott> ok i'm going to upgrade my linode
03:43:26 <elliott> "present" is my current status
03:44:18 <elliott> i've used half my disk space in /
03:44:42 <Bike> turns out elliott installed openoffice in /sbin
03:45:22 <elliott> installing openoffice on a server
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03:51:47 <kmc> seems that whatever Java UI toolkit Burp is using won't let me actually type text into any text field
03:51:50 <kmc> so that's fun
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03:58:47 <elliott> wow the abuse filter actually blocked someone
03:58:57 <Bike> that wasn't twenty minutes..
03:59:12 <elliott> i paid for the 'fast service' ;)
04:00:02 <elliott> ok so time to figure out what's using all the gigabytes
04:00:29 <elliott> Gregor: what was that thing you used
04:02:22 <elliott> to analyse the disk space's
04:02:36 <Gregor> Locally, k4dirstat. Remotely, philesight
04:03:57 <elliott> i remembered some like three letter name tool but ok
04:04:18 <Gregor> Nope, those are all that I use.
04:04:29 <Gregor> Except for the occasional du -bsx * | sort -n | less
04:06:40 <elliott> well i DISTINCTLY RECALL something!!
04:06:47 <elliott> iirc it had was ncursesy or something
04:07:12 <Gregor> Ohyeaaaah there was some tool I used for a while like that.
04:07:46 <elliott> is there a particular reason you stopped using it
04:07:57 <Gregor> I preferred the alternatives *shrugs*
04:08:22 <elliott> lol turns out i already have ncdu
04:08:51 <elliott> uh i wonder how to get accurate measurements without running the whole thing as root
04:10:07 <elliott> wow my irssi logs are half a gig
04:10:47 <ais523> half a gig is like one set of bookshelves at a library sort of size
04:11:10 <elliott> ais523: I haven't done any DCCing
04:11:24 <Bike> my irclogs total like... oh wow 200 MB wtff
04:11:36 <elliott> looks like the vast majority is ##crawl (217 Mio) + #haskell (106.7 Mio)
04:11:41 <Bike> i think i need to cut down on talking.
04:11:45 <elliott> #esoteric is in third place at only 23.8 Mio
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04:12:01 <ais523> mibioctet, still the best unit of measurement for data storage
04:12:27 <ais523> mibioctet = 1/128 of a bit
04:13:33 <pikhq> Well yeah. Arithmetic coding. :)
04:13:43 <ais523> fractional bits are useful for all sorts of purposes
04:14:25 <ais523> negative fractional bits, on the other hand…
04:14:27 <Bike> like describing my internet speed! (the joke is my internet)
04:14:43 <pikhq> Imaginary fractional bits.
04:14:55 <Bike> would negative bits have positive entropy
04:15:11 <pikhq> Yes, but negative negentropy.
04:15:42 <pikhq> Literally sucks the information right out of you.
04:15:44 <ais523> Bike: if you haven't already, look up TURKEY BOMB
04:15:47 <ais523> … if that's even possible
04:15:54 <ais523> is catseye's content saved anywhere?
04:15:57 <Bike> i did look it up
04:16:04 <Bike> i forgot most of it though
04:16:12 <Bike> poss. alien intervention
04:16:28 <ais523> I guess TURKEY BOMB is like the reverse of Feather
04:16:38 <ais523> Feather feels (to me at least) like it /should/ work, but I can't make it work
04:16:42 <Bike> in that it exists but wasn't intended to?
04:16:45 <pikhq> http://web.archive.org/web/20030528104217/http://www.catseye.mb.ca/
04:16:53 <ais523> whereas TURKEY BOMB obviously doesn't work, but it's interesting trying to make it work
04:16:58 <ais523> pikhq: that's only archived the homepage, IIRC
04:17:01 <ais523> not the actual content
04:17:48 <elliott> ais523: btw someone should be emailing cpressey about that!
04:18:03 <ais523> you're not lazy enough to nag about it on IRC
04:18:11 <ais523> *to not nag about it on IRC
04:26:38 <elliott> hm, maybe I should be lazy and run esolangs.org off Arch so that I can have the same OS locally as on my server
04:30:20 <elliott> that way it would also break more often
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05:04:33 <pikhq> Why not use Debian unstable?
05:10:32 <elliott> well, that breaks more often *and* I have no clue about it.
05:11:50 <ais523> fwiw, I use the term "metric megabyte" to refer to 1000000 bytes
05:13:46 <Bike> picture a wave of a million bicycles bearing down on you
05:13:54 <Bike> GASHUNK they say, forcing open the door
05:20:42 <Bike> well it's like eight a clock so: yes
05:21:12 <zzo38> ais523: I think that is OK
05:24:15 <elliott> i sort of want to stay up but also i have this weird drowsy feeling and i have no idea why
05:31:32 <elliott> yo Bike if i collapse wake me up
05:32:22 <pikhq> elliott: I'll steal your sleep.
05:32:28 <Bike> you are supposed to be asleep
05:32:36 <elliott> don't you care about me Bike
05:32:42 <Bike> i care about your optimal sleep status
05:32:47 <Bike> just as you care for gregor's voice status
05:33:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
05:33:11 <Bike> well he doesn't have to be asleep all the time
05:33:15 <Bike> just when it's appropriate
05:33:20 <Bike> same for gregor (except with: voice)
05:33:28 <elliott> whenever you desireth a state pertaining to the voice of Gregor;
05:33:33 <elliott> hence thus the opposite shall be attained.
05:34:48 <Bike> 'hence thus', that is some /fantastic/ writing
05:37:14 <elliott> yes. someone so gifted as me should not sleep
05:37:17 <elliott> what if I lost my talents?
05:37:38 <Bike> this particular talent sucks imo
05:40:40 <Bike> you know who else sucks?
05:44:35 <elliott> he researches speech recognition dude.
05:44:40 <elliott> the only thing worse is biology
05:44:54 <Bike> you know what's worsest?
05:44:59 <Bike> that's right. whatever myndzi does.
05:45:36 <Bike> and since this is #esoteric there's a good chance that that thing is also the thing that you do.
05:46:22 <elliott> ok dude why am i weirdly drowsy this is weird as heck
05:46:29 <elliott> maybe i took too much melatonin yesterday or something
05:46:55 <ais523> oh, right, after doing a bunch of website design
05:47:03 <ais523> I think I decided the concrete reason why CSS sucks
05:47:17 <ais523> it lacks measurements like "100%-10em-8px"
05:47:36 <ais523> the vast majority of weird complex CSS is attempting to simulate this sort of formula using multiple nested elements
05:50:18 <Sgeo> How would CORS withCredentials requests work without third-party cookies enabled?
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06:32:49 <kmc> http://englishrussia.com/2010/03/12/ekranoplan/ nice photos
06:33:16 <kmc> this is the channel for esoteric naval vessels right?
06:33:56 <Bike> ekranoplans are crazy
07:09:38 <zzo38> Do you want SQL to have a way to create anonymous triggers, views, overrides of a table with a view, etc and store the reference as a value in a table?
07:10:22 <shachaf> zzo38: all i want is a hug
07:10:38 <zzo38> We don't sell that.
07:11:35 <shachaf> I didn't say anything about selling.
07:11:38 <shachaf> I propose a fair exchange.
07:12:56 <kmc> a hug purchased with fiat money is no better than slavery #bitcoin
07:13:10 <Bike> hugcoin would be good
07:13:26 <kmc> how does that work exactly
07:13:45 <kmc> it's like bitcoin except instead of finding SHA-256 preimages you can only mine a coin by convincing a human being to hug you
07:13:47 <Bike> shachaf hugs you and gives you money, if you can solve some hash
07:13:56 <kmc> what if i smoke it instead (drugs joke)
07:14:34 <shachaf> kmc: what if some people decide to game the system and start hugging each other all the time
07:14:58 <oklopol> then the length of hugs needed to produce money is increased
07:15:19 <shachaf> is it the length or number of hugs that's relevant
07:15:33 <oklopol> yes, number of _valid_ hugs
07:15:37 <shachaf> imo high-frequency hugging is the future
07:18:40 <kmc> shachaf: we will write code to detect such "hug rings" and silently ignore them, unless they benefit our own political and financial aims
07:19:30 <kmc> shachaf: yes (we were talking about it in cslounge earlier)
07:21:16 <kmc> that thing i said
07:21:20 <kmc> except with voting instead of hugs
07:21:35 <kmc> don't have
07:21:47 <kmc> YC companies are allowed to circlejerk about their shitty startups
07:21:47 <Bike> imo what happens on hn stays on hn
07:21:52 <Bike> elliott: fyi it's now 8? sleep
07:22:20 <kmc> ksplice ran into this filter at one point
07:22:22 <elliott> not when i sent that though
07:22:30 <kmc> filter and/or manual pg cockblocking
07:23:02 <kmc> sometimes he bans people but often he just makes it so your posts don't appear for others, or your votes don't count or only count half
07:23:09 <kmc> or your articles just mysteriously can't make it to the front page
07:23:30 <Bike> benevolent dicktatorship
07:23:46 <kmc> the free market has decided that pg is a superior being and therefore his actions are fair ipso facto
07:24:52 <Bike> i believe that is the principle behind megabonuses for CEOs
07:24:57 <elliott> i ran into a pg article that made me groan today
07:25:14 <kmc> i had a dream where i punched pg (not really (that would be pathetic))
07:25:22 <elliott> actually it would be kind of cool
07:25:25 <elliott> i'd respect a guy who has pg punching dreams
07:25:30 <kmc> (the previous message is a joke about lisp (hth))
07:25:37 <Bike> i wouldn't respect such dreams
07:25:44 <Bike> imo only dream about going to school w/o underwear
07:25:48 <elliott> anyhow i am going to quote
07:26:00 <elliott> probably kmc has already read it but w/e
07:26:30 <elliott> "Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers? [...] What can't we say? One way to find these ideas is simply to look at things people do say, and get in trouble for. [...] We have such labels today, of course, quite a lot of them, from the all-purpose "inappropriate" to the dreaded "divisive." In any period, it should be easy to figure out what such labels are, simply by
07:26:37 <elliott> uh that probably got cut off
07:26:40 <elliott> We have such labels today, of course, quite a lot of them, from the all-purpose "inappropriate" to the dreaded "divisive." In any period, it should be easy to figure out what such labels are, simply by looking at what people call ideas they disagree with besides untrue. [...]
07:26:44 <elliott> So another way to figure out which of our taboos future generations will laugh at is to start with the labels. Take a label-- "sexist", for example-- and try to think of some ideas that would be called that. Then for each ask, might this be true?"
07:27:06 <elliott> it takes like two pages to edge towards "hey guys....... i think i might be sexist"
07:27:15 <kmc> i read on HN that women just aren't smart enough to be startup programmers and that's why they do easier stuff like theoretical physics or bioengineering
07:27:24 <elliott> and then backs as far away from it as possible
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07:29:47 <elliott> also it thanks eric raymond for "conversations about heresy" at the bottom
07:29:52 <elliott> dunno whether that is esr or some other guy though
07:30:16 <kmc> pg and esr are like two sides of the same shitty coin
07:30:43 <kmc> i've got it: shitcoin
07:30:53 <elliott> "i've seen the way pg and esr look at each other"
07:31:43 <Bike> kmc: i saw some semi-serious thing called that
07:32:12 <kmc> anyway i'm glad that the voices of wealthy white men are finally being heard in this society
07:32:36 <Bike> too long has the white man been put down with offensive terms like "divisive" and "shitheaded"
07:33:18 <elliott> relevant crazy esr post http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4893
07:33:26 <kmc> not clicking, hth
07:33:29 <elliott> i haven't actually read more than a few paragraphs so let me know if it's even better than i imagine
07:33:54 <elliott> kmc: uh are you saying you don't want to read an eric s raymond post which includes the text
07:33:58 <elliott> [[A recent coment on this blog pointed out that many cultures – including our own until around the time of the Industrial Revolution – constructed many of their customs around the belief that women are nigh-uncontrollably
07:34:03 <elliott> lustful creatures whose sexuality has to be restrained by strict social controls and even the amputation of the clitoris (still routine in large parts of the Islamic world).]]
07:34:25 <kmc> i don't even
07:34:44 <elliott> Of course today our reflex is to dismiss this as pure fantasy with no other function than keeping half the human species in perpetual subjection. But some years ago I found myself asking “What if it really was like that?”
07:35:04 <ais523> elliott: now I'm trying to work out if the european colonization of the US happened before or after the industrial revolution
07:35:17 <elliott> We can find some support for this theory even in present time. I’ve noted before that in our modern, liberated era women seem not to be demanding as high a clearing price for sex as they should. In traditional terms, they’re being lustful.
07:35:28 <elliott> i think i will close the tab and just imagine what all the paragraphs i'm not reading could contain
07:35:36 <elliott> keep me satisfied for weeks
07:35:36 <kmc> how could they top that
07:36:10 <kmc> that's what she said
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07:38:47 <kmc> [crickets chirp]
07:39:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm reminded of the debate about sexism in computer games
07:39:40 <ais523> last time I thought about it, I came to the conclusion of "in Mario games, you can probably discover something useful by trying to work out if the plot would make sense / be sexist if you swapped the roles of Peach and Luigi"
07:40:02 <ais523> the problem is, although you can draw lots of nice conclusions that way, I'm not sure what they are
07:40:41 <elliott> that seems like the weirdest conclusion you could come to
07:41:00 <ais523> well I haven't made that much progress
07:41:16 <ais523> I think there's some genuine anti-female sexism in some of the games, but not all of them
07:41:30 <ais523> also, a bit of anti-male sexism; I decided to get offended that Kamek is male
07:41:30 <Jafet> Computer games are sexist?
07:41:33 <Jafet> http://cdn.unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/soul-calibur.jpg
07:41:41 <ais523> I don't think I've ever seen a character in that role be female
07:41:45 <kmc> there are a lot of games that don't explicitly hate women, but objectify them or tend to give them one-dimensional roles
07:41:45 <ais523> and it's a moderately derogatory one
07:41:57 <ais523> kmc: to be fair, they often give the men one-dimensional roles too
07:42:18 <ais523> SMB1 is basically "Mario jumps on things, Bowser breathes fireballs, Peach is in another castle"
07:43:30 <ais523> also, the game to use as a comparison for sexism games is Yoshi's Island
07:43:37 <ais523> because all the characters in Yoshi's Island are male
07:43:44 <ais523> (Luigi takes the role of "person who needs to be rescued")
07:44:03 <Jafet> Does it end in italian plumber boys love
07:44:06 <kmc> i'm still going to buy GTA V though
07:44:26 <ais523> Jafet: well they're babies at the time of Yoshi's Island
07:44:33 <ais523> I guess the Yoshis' genders were never stated
07:44:37 <ais523> but they don't exactly matter at all
07:45:36 <Jafet> Is the GTA series actually sexist, or is it just mindlessly violent
07:45:50 <ais523> hmm, I guess I consider objectification of women a slightly separate problem from sexism in general
07:46:08 <ais523> like, you can imagine a game that objectifies the men just as much
07:46:17 <ais523> a) is that still sexist? b) is that still a problem?
07:46:30 <Jafet> ais523: like which game
07:46:32 <kmc> ais523: the wider cultural context matters
07:46:37 <Jafet> sexually objectifies men
07:46:41 <kmc> like, in the real world women face more problems from being objectified
07:47:20 <ais523> Jafet: there's a male prostitute in neverwinter nights 1, together with two female prostitutes
07:47:45 <ais523> actually the main -ism problem with that series is that they keep on trying to put homosexuality into the games and being censored by their publishers
07:47:51 <kmc> Jafet: well a lot of the women in the game are strippers and prostitutes and such
07:47:52 <ais523> which leads to something of an anti-gay bias
07:48:00 <kmc> and you are encouraged to hurt them to varying degrees
07:48:33 <Jafet> ais523: well, for every male stripper in video games there are 100 female protagonists who are equally objectified
07:48:58 <kmc> being a sandbox game it does depend on how you play, naturally
07:49:16 <ais523> and if you made a game with a male stripper protagonist
07:49:23 <ais523> then people would probably be outraged
07:49:32 <kmc> i don't think GTA passes the Bechdel test
07:49:34 <Jafet> In the cultural context, a male stripper protagonist would be funny
07:49:35 <kmc> not sure though
07:49:40 <ais523> what's the Bechdel test?
07:49:47 <kmc> @google bechdel test
07:49:59 <Jafet> A female stripper protagonist would be serious sex business
07:50:23 <ais523> Jafet: that reminds me of Guild Council; someone pointed out how weird it was that they had a rule specifically banning female strippers
07:50:27 <ais523> rather than strippers in general
07:50:55 <ais523> kmc: bleh, while I'm waiting for Firefox to load and my window manager to find it, explain?
07:51:18 <kmc> does it a) have two female characters, b) who talk to each other, c) about something other than a man
07:51:37 <kmc> this is depressingly uncommon in popular fiction
07:51:54 <Jafet> @google bechdel test site:tvtropes.org
07:51:55 <lambdabot> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBechdelTest
07:51:56 <lambdabot> Title: The Bechdel Test - Television Tropes & Idioms
07:52:46 <ais523> they need a revision to that; the movie also needs to contain two men who talk about something other than a woman
07:52:55 <ais523> for it to be a completely fair test
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07:53:08 <kmc> first of all almost every movie has that
07:53:10 <kmc> that's the point
07:53:17 <ais523> I'm mostly thinking of movies with no gendered characters
07:53:23 <kmc> secondly this is a classic annoying distraction tactic
07:53:40 <ais523> or don't they happen often?
07:54:01 <Jafet> Maybe they shouldn't have called it a test
07:54:03 <ais523> anyway, the first page of the list linked implies that more than half the movies actually pass the test
07:54:05 <Jafet> bechdel phenomenon
07:54:12 <ais523> but yeah, it's an interesting observation
07:54:49 <Jafet> The point isn't that film xyz passes or fails the "test"
07:55:15 <Jafet> Overall, most films don't meet the criteria, and hollywood as a whole fails the test
07:55:28 <Jafet> Somehow, this isn't surprising
07:56:23 <kmc> ais523: it's annoying when one group complains about discrimination and then another highly privileged group demands equal time to discuss a very rare / hypothetical scenario of them facing similar discrimination
07:56:26 <ais523> you'd expect it to historically fail most tests
07:56:27 <kmc> under the guise of "fairness"
07:56:38 <ais523> kmc: no, I was trying to filter out false positives/negatives
07:56:47 <kmc> well you said "for it to be a completely fair test"
07:56:50 <ais523> but omitting movies with no gendered characters, or no conversations, or the like
07:56:59 <ais523> yeah, meant the scientific meaning there
07:57:04 <ais523> I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I meant
07:57:10 <kmc> yeah, I think i understand now
07:57:19 <Jafet> You're latching onto the word "test"
07:58:06 <ais523> Jafet: I'm wanting to know how worrying it is
07:58:34 <ais523> it seems that recently, it's not been a problem, or perhaps Hollywood is deliberately manouvering around the letter of the rules
07:58:43 <ais523> and historically, clearly it was, and nobody should really be surprised at that
07:58:43 <Jafet> Well, it's a concrete illustration of something that is already quite obviously true
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07:59:52 <kmc> another question to ponder is how many days in your own life pass the bechdel test
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08:00:36 <ais523> kmc: many of them fail the "two female characters" test, because I'm often by myself (and not female)
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08:01:01 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's even a sensible question to ask, though
08:01:06 <Jafet> No excuses, you sexist pig
08:01:34 <kmc> yeah if you restrict to in person interactions then it is hard
08:01:40 <kmc> because i don't get out much, lately
08:01:43 <Jafet> I think kmc means the version with the genders swapped
08:01:57 <ais523> oh, I frequently fail the swapped-genders version too
08:02:02 <ais523> probably more often than the non-swapped-genders version
08:02:52 <Jafet> What if male characters talk about sexism on irc
08:02:59 <Jafet> Is that like, meta-bechdel
08:03:36 <Bike> http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4635
08:03:48 <ais523> Jafet: hmm… does a discussion about sexism count as a discussion about the opposite sex?
08:04:00 <Jafet> Bike automatically failed us all by linking to sinfest
08:04:06 <ais523> if so, there's some sort of meta-meta-bechdel involved
08:04:24 <Bike> anyway the point of the test is just to point out how many plots for women in movies revolve around romance
08:04:25 <kmc> Bike: haha
08:04:39 <ais523> Bike: yeah, that's actually the scariest/most interesting part of it
08:04:42 <Bike> talking about males doesn't really matter
08:04:55 <Bike> since said plots are about a male, not maledom
08:05:02 <ais523> failing test 1 or test 2 is more likely to happen due to setting reasons than anything else
08:05:08 <Bike> also it's just a silly test, don't over think it
08:05:11 <Bike> Twilight passes the test
08:05:39 <ais523> as in, whether sensible or not, the setting is one in which you wouldn't expect multiple female characters, or for them to be able to interact with each other
08:05:46 <ais523> ofc you can complain about movies frequently being given those settings :)
08:06:02 <ais523> btw, there's a comparable rule for RPGs
08:06:11 <Bike> what kinda movies do you watch
08:06:17 <ais523> that says that the vast majority of RPGs have either exactly 1 or exactly 3 female characters
08:07:01 <kmc> yeah it's not like passing or failing this test is a great guide as to whether your fiction is fair to women
08:07:08 <kmc> as Bike's link points out
08:07:21 <ais523> yep, it's an "we'd expect the inaccuracies to average out and still be scared at the result"
08:09:34 <ais523> anyway, overthinking things is what I do, sometimes
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08:09:40 <ais523> thanks for letting me know about it, anyway
08:10:00 <Bike> sometimes i forget that things like the bechdel test aren't a thing everybody knows
08:10:47 <ais523> Bike: did you overthink it when you were first introduced?
08:10:59 <Bike> i don't remember
08:11:24 <Bike> i saw it in the original comic which was fairly obviously unserious so i dunno
08:11:57 <ais523> actually the really interesting thing is the comments section
08:12:00 <ais523> observing people arguing on the internet is fun
08:12:06 <ais523> especially if you don't know the right answer
08:12:22 <ais523> and you can glean more from how heavily people argue minor points, than you can from the idea as a whole
08:12:32 <ais523> (like, even the fact that they're arguing, independent of the actual opinion)
08:12:43 <Bike> jesus fuck i've heard two people praise comments sections in the last day
08:12:56 <jconn> elliott: |syntax error
08:13:06 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo Bike"]} rest:"Bike"
08:13:49 <ais523> Bike: I'm praising them on the basis that their awfulness demonstrates something about humanity
08:14:01 <ais523> that's pretty backhanded praise
08:14:05 <elliott> ais523: if it doesn't help you, that's because you're not Bike.
08:14:15 <elliott> perhaps consider being Bike in future.
08:14:39 <Bike> ok we're back to sanity thanks ais.
08:15:24 <elliott> ais523: what is the problem
08:15:46 <ais523> elliott: the referent of "it" in your last-but-two line
08:15:56 <ais523> I can't figure out what it is
08:16:02 <ais523> and it's making the entire line hard to understand
08:17:49 <ais523> elliott: hmm… you're trying to be hard to understand intentionally?
08:18:00 <elliott> Bike: please explain to ais523
08:18:23 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
08:19:00 <ais523> elliott: fwiw there was a massive misinterpretation all round just before you rageparted
08:19:15 <ais523> so the conversation may be confusing to you if you don't logread the bit in between
08:19:25 <ais523> (which you presumably won't, because you rageparted)
08:19:29 <ais523> but it's even more confusing to me
08:19:36 <elliott> are you suggesting this somehow differs from the usual sense #esoteric makes
08:20:03 <ais523> elliott: why would anyone hang out in a channel that generally made no sense?
08:21:35 <ais523> elliott: because I think it generally made more sense than this
08:21:40 <ais523> back when I normally paid attention
08:22:05 <ais523> perhaps we should make it make sense
08:22:16 <ais523> but implementing scapegoat or something would be nice
08:22:19 <elliott> no, why would you ruin #esoteric?
08:22:49 <ais523> elliott: hmm, are you actively trying to drive me away for some reason?
08:23:32 <elliott> perhaps you are trying to drive yourself away
08:24:49 <ais523> haha, when you said that, I went back and checked your last few lines for evidence of having connected ELIZA to the chat
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08:30:24 <ais523> yeah, I think I'm out of conclusions at this point
08:35:33 <ais523> kmc: btw, decided to do some scientific-ish sampling of my own (via reading comments): false negative rate is there but mostly insignificant (probably around 5-10%)
08:35:57 <ais523> quite a lot of missing data in that estimate, though
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09:33:38 <elliott> kmc: uh, are you planting mind viruses? I just got this urge to work on a tracing JIT for functional languages.
09:42:41 <Jafet> If you are a grad student, seek inoculation today. You are especially vulnerable
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11:14:40 <Jafet> Why do all the shell commands have dumb defaults
11:16:01 <ais523> they've probably never changed defaults since unix first edition
11:18:16 <Jafet> read doesn't default to -r, echo doesn't default to -E, find doesn't default to -print0 or -ls
11:18:42 <Jafet> The result is that any shellscript you write is probably insecure out the door
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12:00:06 <FreeFull> Jafet: Probably shouldn't use shell scripts to interact with the outside world
12:00:50 <Jafet> I should delete every shell script from this system then
12:00:54 <Jafet> Hm wait, how would I do that
12:01:31 <ais523> well -print0 isn't POSIX
12:01:51 <ais523> and also rather sucks for interactive use
12:02:09 <Jafet> find could default to -ls to a tty, and -print0 otherwise
12:04:33 <Jafet> powershell has a type system, and I would use it if it didn't SpellOut EveryCommand in GrandiloquentJargon
12:04:50 <Jafet> Also it probably doesn't run on linux but mainly that
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12:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ek6pe/plot_twist_for_the_social_network_the_winklevii/
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12:56:39 <Taneb> Won't it be very sad
12:56:43 <Taneb> If lens turns out to be a fad
13:05:11 <Taneb> It needs a few more lines to be a poem
13:17:20 <Jafet> Like void and reflection
13:17:24 <Jafet> And differentiation
13:17:28 <Jafet> And trifecta and comonad
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14:15:29 <ais523> function range_unscale(rx,x) {
14:15:31 <ais523> return [Math.ceil(rx[0]/nextfloat(x)),
14:15:32 <ais523> Math.floor(prevfloat(prevfloat(rx[1]+1)/nextfloat(x)))];
14:15:45 <ais523> what do you think of my cunning solution to floating-point rounding problems?
14:17:47 <ais523> btw, this performs the inverse of multiplying a range by a constant factor and truncating to the integer below
14:17:52 <nooodl> ais523: is that javascript?
14:17:57 <ais523> defining nextfloat and prevfloat in javascript was a little annoying
14:18:11 <nooodl> yeah i was wondering about the nextfloat/prevfloat implementations
14:18:13 <mroman_> Now I have to detect if somebody accesses the address of a variable.
14:18:24 <ais523> nooodl: it's basically just recursion
14:18:32 <ais523> keep finding successively nearer floats until the values don't change
14:18:39 <ais523> except implemented using iteratino
14:18:57 <ais523> actually this is one of those algorithms that's equally clear iterative or recursive
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14:21:03 <nooodl> i have no idea what the trick in range_unscale is. floats are weird
14:23:48 <ais523> nooodl: it's basically using the fact that floating-point arithmetic is accurate to 1 ULP
14:23:58 <ais523> in order to always fall just the right side of an integer for floor/ceil
14:28:41 <ais523> btw, what's nextfloat called in C99?
14:28:44 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it has a name
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14:38:10 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
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15:02:37 <elliott> kmc: did you know about pam_ssh
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16:13:49 <kmc> elliott: think so
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16:21:38 <elliott> kmc: imo why didn't you tell me about it and urxvtd
16:22:07 -!- btiffin has left.
16:24:08 <kmc> what's urxvtd
16:24:38 <elliott> kmc: it lets you run all your urxvts from one process, part of urxvt
16:24:48 <elliott> opening a terminal is so fast now
16:25:10 <mnoqy> was opening a terminal ever slow
16:25:14 <elliott> i bet it will even open one when i am urgently trying to kill -9!!!!
16:25:28 <elliott> you can't imagine the speed
16:25:38 <elliott> two lines!!! and my life is anew
16:30:24 <Bike> elliott: didi you sleep at some point
16:31:23 <elliott> mnoqy: its lifechangimf=g!!
16:31:57 <olsner> elliott: you may want to sleep, it's quite good for many reasons
16:32:34 <mnoqy> i had a good dream it was about mario and abiogenesis
16:32:39 <mnoqy> ~benefits of sleeping~
16:33:05 <elliott> i cat imagine a better two cincept
16:33:12 <Bike> is mario an rna strand
16:33:54 <kmc> also Jafet++ because "grandiloquent" is a great word
16:40:41 <nooodl_> elliott: whats the two lines
16:41:23 <nooodl_> oh i thought 2 lines to open a term (this'd be hilarious)
16:44:32 <olsner> it's funny how every star trek character seems to be smuggling illegal alien ale, wine, cider or other spirits
16:45:44 <Bike> illegal alien everclear
17:00:25 <kmc> illegal alien four loko
17:02:34 <kmc> 'Alexander Poleshchuk, who spent six months on Mir in 1993 said that when their personal reserves ran out, some on the space station would explore it for more, removing interior panels during their expeditions. "Sometimes we would bump into a bottle of cognac," he said. "What a joy it was."'
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17:05:55 <kmc> best space station ever
17:08:22 <Bike> man i don'nt know if i could do that
17:08:31 <Bike> there's like a foot between you and void...
17:08:38 <elliott> are you not erady rfor sopace
17:08:47 <Bike> no i am not ready for space
17:12:39 <Bike> i'll be here, in bed
17:17:48 <Sgeo> Space Station 13, only on BYOND?
17:18:07 <Sgeo> (Actually, I think there are attempts to port it elsewhere)
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19:15:37 <oerjan> <FireFly> Qings and koeens <-- Qings and koens, about the little known jewish merchants in china
19:16:51 <Bike> hm, i don't think the kaifeng jews were stereotypically merchants
19:19:23 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i can only included that "Guy Whom Randall Monroe Is Better Than" is now a standard xkcd cast member <-- (1) that's an incorrect use of "whom" (2) i don't think hat man is supposed to represent munroe, at least not his main personality.
19:19:57 <oerjan> Bike: see, they're so little known i didn't know about them when making the pun hth
19:20:50 <Bike> "kind of a shitty misdirection really"
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19:21:31 <oerjan> of course, it doesn't make it any better that the kid clearly _does_ represent munroe (as a kid)
19:22:27 <Sgeo> I should distract myself with DS9
19:23:10 <Sgeo> I just wish Amazon had a way to track already watched episodes the way Hulu does
19:26:23 <oerjan> btw why i consider that use of "whom" probably incorrect: to consider it correct, you would have to care about the distinction between "who" and "whom" (to use "whom" at all), but still not care about the distinction between "better than I" vs. "better than me"
19:26:36 <Bike> You're a nerd.
19:26:52 <oerjan> itt Bike is stating obvious facts
19:27:00 <Bike> Do you wear a pocket protector? I bet you do.
19:27:28 <oerjan> in fact i don't use shirts with pockets at all.
19:27:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it feels.. good, but weird, that Farscape has episodes that seem like they're dedicated to just revealing a character's past, but those episodes have an intense plot
19:28:26 <oerjan> although i keep my pens in the pocket of my sweater. fortunately none of them have leaked yet.
19:28:40 <Bike> oh you know what a pocket protector's for
19:29:08 <oerjan> Bike: i had to look it up to understand pocket protector nerd jokes, duh
19:29:26 <Bike> And why would you have to check? that's right. because you're a DOUBLE NERD
19:29:39 <myname> i thought of making a language based on half bits in terms of semidecidable, but i had no idea of what to do with it, yet. i thought of declaring one halfbit as the inverse of another halfbit to make it a full bit, but from that point on it would be pretty normal
19:29:40 <oerjan> (well in theory, in reality i don't remember how i learned it. actually it may have been from dilbert or something.)
19:29:47 <olsner> was that for older worse kinds of pens that leaked all the time? I've never had a pen leak
19:30:15 <Bike> myname: what do half bits have to do with semidecidability
19:30:22 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, and They've Got a Secret
19:30:33 <myname> Bike: you can either say if it's 1 or nothing
19:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> remember: don't watch the episode after rhapsody in blue
19:30:52 <Bike> that still has nothing to do with semidecidability, and also that's just a bit.
19:30:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, wait what?
19:31:22 <myname> Bike: no, it's not. if you ask, if it's zero and it's not zero, it won't terminate
19:32:01 <Sgeo> Is it as continuity-irrelevant as Threshold though?
19:32:05 <Sgeo> What if it's important later
19:32:49 <oerjan> myname: have you looked at turkey bomb yet, i hear it has rather weirdly divided bits
19:33:11 <myname> i don't, but i'll check
19:34:23 <oerjan> olsner: i even managed to wash my sweater with a pen in it once and nothing significant resulted. so no, leaks are not a problem (this statement generalizes to all pens by induction hth)
19:34:33 <myname> oerjan: what the fuck?
19:35:06 <Bike> is that in relation to turkey bomb
19:35:09 <Bike> if yes: yes the fuck
19:35:31 <myname> oerjan: is that even implementable?
19:35:31 * oerjan doesn't actually know turkey bomb hth
19:36:12 <Bike> i googled 'turkey bomb' to see the definition again and got a bunch of reports of bombings in turkey :(
19:36:13 <oerjan> myname: there have been attempts to clarify it enough to implement some of it, i'm not sure they've succeeded
19:37:26 <oerjan> myname: btw would your semidecidable bits be similar to using two of haskell's True, False, undefined values?
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19:38:21 <myname> i didn't find any way to make the basic idea to a full language :(
19:38:41 <oerjan> also is this connected to upper/lower semicontinuousness and the semicolon topology
19:39:40 <oerjan> myname: i think there's an esolang where you can only set bits, not clear them
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19:40:55 <oerjan> although i may be confusing with Sqeql (sp?) where you can add but not delete cells from the queue
19:41:11 <ais523> IIRC Sceql, but I'm not sure either
19:41:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sceql
19:41:40 <myname> why do you know all that stuff? :D
19:42:36 <ais523> myname: I've almost certainly looked over every page on the wiki at least once, as a spam check
19:42:47 <ais523> so it's just a case of trying to remembre
19:42:55 <oerjan> i also do the spam check thing
19:43:07 <oerjan> although just on the recent changes
19:44:49 <oerjan> AnotherTest: iirc the strong force doesn't actually decrease fast, what happens is that once you separate enough the potential energy becomes so high that new quarks pop into existence, neutralizing the color charge.
19:45:44 <oerjan> from this emerges the nuclear force between nucleons, which i don't quite remember how fast it falls off.
19:45:48 <AnotherTest> aha, so it sort of can only act within a fixed radius, but in it is constant?
19:46:54 <AnotherTest> "the strong force does not diminish in strength with increasing distance"
19:48:29 <oerjan> myname: btw the reason i know about sceql is because it's a derivative of qdeql which i proved tc a while ago
19:49:29 <myname> i don't get the point behind sceql
19:50:06 <oerjan> sceql was an attempt to modify qdeql to make it tc when it was thought it wasn't.
19:51:01 <AnotherTest> the nuclear force does diminish in strength with distance apparently, although they don't have an expression for that
19:53:03 <oerjan> basically afaiu everything involving the strong and nuclear force are crazy complicated to calculate because things don't fall off fast enough to ignore complicated interactions
19:54:39 <oerjan> (this is an impression, i don't have much more than a popular science level of knowledge of this.)
19:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> there's also something to do with the particles mediating the forces having charges
19:55:17 <AnotherTest> Well, I'm just having some fun with it, not really trying to fully grasp this
19:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> like, photons are electrically neutral, so you can leave them out of some calculations
19:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> but gluons have a colour charge and you have to include that
19:56:10 <oerjan> although i think the weak force has charged mediators but still falls off fast enough to be handleable
19:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> the weak force continues to confuse me despite several attempts to work out what it actually is
19:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> all i know is it mediates some quark-lepton interactions
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20:15:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> sanfrankeeskensis <-- sanfrankenstein
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20:21:48 <oerjan> THAT'S NOT A WORD SHEESH
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20:37:42 <oerjan> <Bike> i really need to get to completing my gf-operative-partial-evaluation fantasy <-- that sounded much better when i thought gf was for "girlfriend" hth
20:38:59 <Bike> girlfriend operative?
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20:40:36 <mnoqy> girlfriend partial evaluation fantasy
20:44:36 <oerjan> <elliott> what if @'s name is zero characters WHAT THEN <-- by the time @'s name is ready the chinese will have taken over the world so just make it a single han character hth
20:59:03 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
20:59:08 <HackEgo> 1037) <Bike> i think we need more clever well-recognized idioms based on nematodes
21:04:42 <Bike> `pastequotes Bike
21:04:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6170
21:05:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:06:44 <Bike> i'm really not a fan of how that presents as a download
21:07:12 <Taneb> I've actually /voted/ in the Eurovision Song Contest
21:08:39 <Bike> "DIMBEFACT: LITERALLY TRANSLATED, THIS SONG ACTS AS A DETAILED APOLOGY FOR VOLCANO-RELATED FLIGHT DELAYS AND BANK COLLAPSES #EUROVISION" you voted for iceland right
21:09:09 <Bike> "A Danish TV channel once used images from Assassin's Creed to illustrate a news report on Syria " and against denmark
21:11:49 <Taneb> I did vote for an island country with a low population
21:12:05 <Taneb> And a weird language
21:12:26 <Bike> arabic isn't very weird!!! statistically
21:12:50 <Taneb> Bike, an Arabic language written in the Latin alphabet?
21:13:08 <Taneb> (apparently, it's pretty much a mix of Tunisian Arabic and Italian)
21:13:19 <Bike> (yes i know it's weird that's why i guessed it)
21:13:51 <Taneb> It's got a fair bit of English in it, to
21:13:55 <Bike> i don't think it's actually intelligible with MSA
21:14:41 <Taneb> Bike, I've heard a Tunisian who speaks Italian can generally work out what's what
21:14:53 <Bike> "Ġeografikament, l-Ewropa hi parti tas-superkontinent ta' l-Ewrasja" well i can understand this
21:15:48 <Bike> and supposedly a maltese speaker could not understand "Ir-raġel qiegħed fid-dar"
21:15:54 <Bike> oh, speaks italian, duh.
21:16:15 <Bike> like unerstanding english by speaking german and french.
21:17:39 <Taneb> So you can tell what I mean when I say "The sewer sows seeds in the sewer so the sow sees her son"
21:21:07 <fizzie> Taneb: Did you vote with the MOBILE APPLICATION?
21:21:11 <fizzie> I heard there's one now.
21:21:15 <Taneb> fizzie, not available in the UK
21:21:21 <Taneb> I did vote with a mobile
21:21:42 <fizzie> Doesn't voting cost money?
21:21:54 <Taneb> Yeah, 15 whole pence
21:23:54 <fizzie> These filler bits are... are quite.
21:24:16 <Taneb> We're getting the life and times of Bonnie Tyler
21:24:38 <fizzie> Oh, I thought these were universal, since there was nothing Finland-specific.
21:24:53 <Taneb> Oh, it's back to Sweden
21:24:59 <Taneb> Maybe the UK's just weird
21:25:35 <fizzie> There've been a couple Sweden-travel-documentary-parody kind of things.
21:25:52 <Taneb> Wow, look at that efficient recycling system
21:26:01 <Taneb> I'm definitely gonna visit Sweden now
21:26:04 <fizzie> I guess you're getting this same song then.
21:26:48 <Taneb> Sweden sounds like southern England
21:26:53 <fizzie> Some of this I think would have applied to Finnish stereotypes too.
21:26:57 <fizzie> At least that previous train bit.
21:27:19 <Taneb> The queueing is very UK
21:27:28 <Taneb> And I've heard the train bit about the South
21:27:57 <olsner> apparently we have no other kind of "culture" than trying to make jokes about how swedes are odd
21:29:46 <oerjan> olsner: actually i think it's stereotypically swedish to think swedes don't really have a culture hth
21:31:15 <oerjan> also possibly stereotypical, in sweden, bringing up any _actual_ swedish culture is considered racism.
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21:34:53 <olsner> as the other stereotypes that one is also largely true
21:41:09 <olsner> ooh, here's the part where they do countries and numbers in french again
21:41:56 <fizzie> olsner: Thank's for giving your top points to Denmark and Norway, and zero to Finland, you Swede.
21:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> 'define the determinant of a matrix' is such a nasty little question
21:43:19 <olsner> fizzie: Finland's song was not good, hth
21:43:30 <Bike> the product of the eigenvalues?
21:45:33 <fizzie> olsner: That shouldn't matter.
21:46:03 <olsner> it would be very unfair to the countries with less bad songs if you got more points
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21:47:38 <fizzie> No, I mean, the whole point is to vote for neighbor countries and such.
21:50:20 <Bike> in any case there are so many ways you could define it that mandating any particular one would be silly
21:51:05 <Bike> 'product of the eigenvalues' is nice and short
21:51:05 <Phantom_Hoover> the reason for 'lol' is that the order we were taught things was determinants -> eigenvalues
21:51:22 <Bike> @google anti-determinants
21:51:23 <lambdabot> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117182/
21:51:24 <lambdabot> Title: Transfer RNA determinants for translational editing by Escherichia coli valyl-tR ...
21:51:51 <olsner> at least eigenvalues and eigenvectors have some sort of meaning, I've never understood what those determinants do
21:51:52 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.axler.net/DwD.html
21:52:50 <Bike> determinants first is the usual way to teach but i dunno why
21:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, from my perspective determinants aren't so much one thing as this gestalt of equivalent definitions and algorithms for calculating the
21:52:56 <Bike> because: what olsner said
21:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> none of which are really more definitive than the others
21:53:45 <olsner> but I probably also learned to get eigenthings out of determinants, I just forgot all of that
21:55:15 <mnoqy> i learned determinants starting with an axiomatic definition and then deriving a formula after proving a bunch of things about them..........i think eigenthings came shortly after that?
21:57:06 <Bike> i hope there's a thing called an eigendeterminant that's like an eigenvalue but for a matrix being transformed by a tensor. that would be good.
21:58:32 <shachaf> mnoqy: how should i learnn determinants
21:58:38 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you recommend "your method"
21:59:06 <mnoqy> Bike: By means of dynamic equilibrium considerations, the reaction of the point supports is imposed by using the Lagrange multipliers method. This yields the eigendeterminant of a constrained panel by appropriately coupling the response of a suitably large number of natural vibration modes of the corresponding unconstrained structural element.
22:01:10 <Bike> shachaf: imo read DwD
22:01:48 <shachaf> "Down with Determinants!"?
22:02:01 <Bike> yes i linked it right there.
22:02:49 <shachaf> Bike: i wasn't here at the time do you expect me to read scrollbackwards what kind of person do you think i am
22:03:05 <Bike> oh i have it as "antideterminants.pdf" on my hard drive no wonder
22:04:19 <Bike> that;s mean, shachaf.
22:04:48 <Bike> down with bisulphates?
22:04:55 <shachaf> Down with Bikes (that's you)
22:06:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've decided to try to finish DS9 before watching more Farscape
22:07:04 <copumpkin> I've always been annoyed at how expensive these things are: http://www.lapanzanella.com/croccantini-crackers.html
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22:07:44 <FreeFull> copumpkin: That's the solution to most culinary dilemmas
22:07:53 <FreeFull> Assuming you know how to cook anyway
22:08:00 <FreeFull> Otherwise you end up with more problems
22:09:39 <copumpkin> the fact that I just spent an hour making two packets' worth of them goes to show how much I value my time though :P
22:12:02 <olsner> you should've made a bigger batch?
22:12:14 <olsner> and now that you know how, it might not take a full hour
22:13:39 <copumpkin> but I didn't know how they'd turn out
22:14:25 <copumpkin> now I'll start making 10lb batches of them
22:14:28 <Taneb> We've broken the 20!
22:14:33 <copumpkin> and I need to get all the cheese to go with them
22:23:11 <olsner> or start making your own cheese too
22:23:41 <copumpkin> but I don't trust myself to make the moldy stuff or aged stuff :P
22:23:49 <olsner> curdling milk etc is not too hard
22:23:58 <olsner> you do need a ton of milk though
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22:24:27 <copumpkin> I tried making mozzarella once but heated it up too much and made something closer to ricotta
22:24:33 <copumpkin> still wasn't bad but I prefer mozzarella
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22:43:10 <zzo38> The fields to vote on are: qualify, theme, puzzle, original, technical, literature, plot, difficulty, gameplay, atmosphere, goodjob, overall. Do you have some idea of what weight should be assigned to each one?
22:43:56 <Bike> there's an overall category which is then incorporated into a combined measure?
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22:50:29 <tswett> Sgeo: so I think I've figured out why I don't like /r/atheism. I think that one of the most important traits a person can have is the ability to entertain points of view they disagree with.
22:51:00 <tswett> It seems like almost everyone who posts in /r/atheism accomplishes nothing besides showing that they don't have this trait.
22:51:06 <tswett> And so I find the whole thing pretty sad.
22:52:10 <zzo38> Well, you should still think of them, agree or disagree, to learn about it.
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23:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, i agree except i'm not completely sure what you mean by 'entertain' there
23:13:20 <tswett> Think about, consider the implications of.
23:13:32 <Bike> i thought the problem with r/atheism was that it was a shitty hive, but it's been a while
23:15:30 <Bike> good to know i'm not stereotyping them too badly
23:18:27 <Bike> complexes are your friend ph
23:19:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i prefer arbitrary fields because you can just pretend they're R and avoid thinking too much
23:19:27 <Bike> i think it needs to be algebraically complete maybe
23:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_variety thanks google i'm sure that's what bike meant
23:22:11 <Bike> you can't take a root of an arbitrary real-coefficient polynomial and have it be real
23:22:14 <Bike> i forget the word
23:22:30 <Bike> closed, algebraically closed
23:24:22 <Bike> i guess what i'm saying is that i forget if a real matrix necessarily has real eigenvalues
23:24:59 <Bike> "Not every real matrix has real eigenvalues, but every complex matrix has at least one complex eigenvalue." k then
23:25:22 <shachaf> Bike: you're going to have to need to study some lambda calculus hth
23:25:30 <Bike> hey go fuck yo self
23:26:00 <Bike> ain't give a damn
23:26:54 <Sgeo> I think people on Reddit are currently angry at me
23:28:26 <Bike> what's the eigenvalue of the y combinator
23:28:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: reddit doesn't matter hth
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23:34:30 <Sgeo> "My recommendations might not apply as much to you, because according to my judgements of quality of fiction, DS9 should be grater than VOY, so since your judgment of those two is different, it's likely you'd disagree with my other judgments"
23:34:31 <fizzie> Possibly also "your place or mine?"
23:35:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, in your opinion, is Voyager better than Stargate Infinity?
23:35:54 <Sgeo> Is Voyager better than Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing: The Movie by Uwe Boll would be?
23:36:51 <Bike> Sgeo: i'd watch the fuck out of such a movie fyi
23:37:11 <pikhq> Oh, that'd probably be amazing.
23:37:15 <pikhq> Terrible, but amazing.
23:37:59 <Koen_> oh oops apologies Sgeo turns out I've got a hl on stargate and this irc client makes notices and hls look alike
23:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the plot is resolved by reversing the truck in a circle faster than the speed of light
23:38:24 <Sgeo> Stargate Universe != Stargate Infinity
23:38:49 <Koen_> what's stargate infinity why haven't I heard about it
23:39:20 <Sgeo> A non-canonical animated Stargate show for kids
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23:39:57 <Koen_> ohhhhhhh yeah I remember deciding to watch it and then changing my mind a few minutes into it
23:40:52 <Koen_> I haven't watched Voyager but I'm pretty sure it should be better than any hypothetical Uwe Boll movie
23:41:13 <pikhq> This is because you're an optimist.
23:41:45 <Sgeo> Unless you like Voyager and dislike DS9: In this case you might dislike anything that Phantom_Hoover considers to be good
23:41:54 <Sgeo> Also: Phantom_Hoover: Watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica
23:41:54 <Koen_> though I'm in the middle of what appears to be an 8 hour show about a bank robbing so I'll finish that first
23:42:31 <Sgeo> Not "instead". And make sure it's spoiler-free.
23:42:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I second the recommendation.
23:43:03 <pikhq> It is stellar, though you won't be able to recognize this for a couple episodes.
23:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ok well somebody mail me a box set as part of the #esoteric Exchange Of Things Program
23:43:38 <pikhq> Before then you'll be wondering "what the fuck is this Sailor Moon shit"
23:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i enjoyed sailor moon some time in my distant youth
23:48:00 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, incidentally, there are only 12 30-minute episodes
23:48:12 <Sgeo> So it's not like it will take a long time to watch the entire thing
23:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> also as i have mentioned before i am unable to torrent things on university internet
23:48:38 <Sgeo> Compared to how many hours of Farscape?
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23:49:32 <Koen_> is Farscape currently running? or is it over
23:49:52 <Koen_> cause when I watch shows that are still running they usually get cancelled pretty quickly I wouldn't want to be responsible for that
23:50:13 <Phantom_Hoover> it was also cancelled before its time (i blame stargate)
23:50:45 <Koen_> well Stargate was cancelled too
23:51:49 <Koen_> it was kinda getting old, in the 8th season every episode made me feel like the actors were telling us "ok we don't honestly know if it's over or not so we're gonna stall just a little bit without doing anything decisive like getting a fourth team member or anything"
23:52:39 <Koen_> and then in the 9th and 10th seasons "ok looks like we're here for sixty or so more episodes so hum let us introduce you to The Gods Who Are Even More Powerful Than The Previous Gods
23:52:41 <pikhq> I'm honestly irritated it wasn't cancelled earlier.
23:52:45 <Sgeo> 8th season finale was more of a series finale
23:52:52 <Sgeo> (Or was that a different season?)
23:53:00 <pikhq> Yeah. 8th season it should've *died*.
23:53:10 <pikhq> And then it was all "... dammit we're still here."
23:53:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember hearing that they did a big final finale and then they got continued
23:53:27 <Koen_> I seem to recall the 8th season final was something completely nonsensical about time travel
23:53:35 <Sgeo> And then they start a new story arc, and the series gets canceled in the middle of the new story arc
23:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas farscape was scheduled for a 4th and 5th season then cancelled at the end of the 4th with no warning
23:53:48 <Sgeo> Koen_, no, that was just wasting time after the ACTUAL finale
23:54:16 <Koen_> ohhhh right you mean the awesome battle over artantica
23:54:17 <pikhq> And then they got to cram a season into a film.
23:54:50 <pikhq> Sci-Fi channel: "what do you mean, appeal to sci-fi fans?"
23:54:50 <Koen_> I'm gonna look it up Bike
23:55:43 <Koen_> ok wikipedia says antarctica, close enough
23:56:05 <Koen_> I seem to recall someone in stargate atlantis making a joke about their new planet
23:56:08 <Sgeo> Koen_, hmm, thought that was an earlier season
23:56:23 <Koen_> Sgeo: hmmmmmmm maybe
23:56:55 <Koen_> Colonel Whatshisname from seasons 9 and 10 is supposed to have been in the battle and I think the battle was from a while before
23:57:13 <Koen_> and Anubis makes several appearances after having been defeated
23:57:22 <Sgeo> Koen_, it's so confusing to watch Farscape, because that actor was the main character in Farscape
23:57:29 <Koen_> oh right season 8th's final is the one where the replicators get killed
23:57:45 <Koen_> ok I'm gonna watch farscape
23:57:57 <Koen_> that was so ridiculous
23:58:12 <Koen_> the replicators are basically supposed to be impossible to get rid of
23:58:21 <Koen_> don't you just love it Phantom_Hoover
23:58:42 <Koen_> because Hannibal Smith that's why