00:23:13 <Sgeo> I can only assume that these commercials cost quite a bit more than usual
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01:08:49 <Sgeo> Now I have to wait for November for new Doctor Who
01:12:27 <kmc> now i have to wait for november to not care about doctor who
01:12:56 <shachaf> i care about doctor who so little that i don't even own a television
01:13:03 <Jafet> kmc: maybe a time lord can help you with that
01:13:48 <shachaf> kmc: how long do you have to wait to not care about breaking bad
01:17:50 <kmc> i will always care about brekaing bad
01:18:37 <kmc> the final batch of episodes starts August 11
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01:43:33 <zzo38> What is the kind of logic that corresponds to a SQL database?
01:46:36 <Bike> trivalent logic or something
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01:53:51 <shachaf> kmc: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ku-ma-me/20090916/p1
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02:01:57 <Bike> oh that was a good quine
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02:21:56 <Sgeo> Is it really a quine?
02:22:23 <mnoqy> yes please let's argue what does QUINE really mean
02:22:24 <Sgeo> Is ruby thatprogram.rb the same as thatprogram.rb, or is it different...
02:22:25 <Bike> suffer not the false quine to live
02:22:44 <Sgeo> Although then again, the composition of those interpreters+compilers...
02:22:51 <Sgeo> It's certainly a quine in that
02:25:42 <kmc> the notorious Q.U.I.N.E.
02:28:12 <Bike> man quine should have rapped. i'd be so up for that. we need more rapping logicians.
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03:00:17 <Jafet> Rage against the turing machine
03:05:40 <zzo38> I was thinking about how to have some kind of logic, which has left conjunction, right conjunction, left disjunction, right disjunction, left implication, right implication, and neutral conjunction. What is this?
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03:28:35 <zzo38> What are your opinions about philosophy of science and related things?
03:30:39 <zzo38> and about philosophy in general?
03:42:44 <zzo38> My own opinion is that mathematics is the real reality, not the "Real World Out There".
03:46:23 <BillyZane> i think, however, it's important to understand the meaning or implications of an equation or theorem, at least that's what i try to do. that can be difficult
03:46:50 <zzo38> I thought you are hi.
03:47:20 <BillyZane> you know that feeling when you see a girl you like in a crowd and you feel you have to speak to her or you'll regret it for the rest of your life? well i didn't speak to her
03:48:51 <zzo38> That feeling isn't the case to me.
03:50:01 <BillyZane> i saw her in a crowd at a live show friday night at UCSD
03:50:30 <BillyZane> i stood right behind her for over an hour, the whole time we were grinding on each other. she was really really cute
03:51:03 <BillyZane> asian, about 5'6, ponytail, thin, high cheek bones
03:51:08 <zzo38> Well, I don't "see a girl [I] like in a crowd and feel [I] have to speak to her".
03:51:25 <BillyZane> right when i was going to make my move, her friend grabs her and she runs off
03:51:47 <BillyZane> i would have really preferred being rejected
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03:53:58 <zzo38> I am not trying to be impatient.
03:54:05 <BillyZane> don't you get that i feel like shit right now
03:54:16 <BillyZane> that i liked this girl and i blew it, and i'll never see her again
03:54:29 <BillyZane> there's other fish in the sea, sure
03:54:44 <BillyZane> but i saw her and thought, this chick is special. you know how rare that is
03:55:06 <zzo38> What I can understand is that you didn't like what happen. However, no, I don't know how rare or common it is.
04:08:10 <kmc> watching this amazon comedy pilot about silicon valley
04:08:30 <kmc> "If we don't capitalize soon we're going to end up working at your parents' bed and breakfast!"
04:08:36 <kmc> or you could get like... a regular programming job?
04:09:16 <kmc> actually it would be kind of cool if the show was about people who think they are startup geniuses but are actually totally unemployable
04:09:22 <kmc> however I don't think that's what they're going for
04:10:18 <kmc> mostly it's about how nerds (male of course) can't talk to women, and other similarly fresh comedy themes
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05:26:45 <Jafet> It could be a regular programming job at his parents' bed-and-breakfast
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09:34:38 <FreeFull> Jafet: Bed and breakfast places don't need much programming though
09:43:12 <Jafet> It could be a silicon valley bed-and-breakfast
09:44:01 <FreeFull> Maybe if it has robots serving people
09:44:39 <Jafet> You need to invest in the innkeeper's stock, but not to the point of buying out the entire place, unless you're Google
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10:37:04 <Taneb> elliott, remember when you were making that Minecraft server in Haskell?
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14:33:30 <Gregor> Am I crazy, or has github been down for nearly a whole day.
14:37:25 <fizzie> "Another crash happened while handling crash!" --Google Earth
14:38:27 <fizzie> (Or http://sprunge.us/jXdW to be a bit more verbose.)
14:38:42 <Taneb> Gregor, I think you are crazy
14:47:24 <Gregor> Why does github not respond for me ._.
14:47:36 <Gregor> status.github.com works and says it's up!
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15:31:14 <elliott> Taneb: also what about it; ion: yes
15:32:47 <olsner> Gregor: there are plenty of plausible explanations that don't involve you being crazy
15:34:24 <ion> elliott: Cool
15:34:48 <Gregor> I still can't load github :(
15:35:06 <Taneb> Gregor, clear cache and refresh?
15:38:39 <Gregor> Even switching browsers doesn't make it load.
15:38:47 <Gregor> It won't even load in lynx.
15:39:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: host: not found
15:40:30 <Gregor> Tell me what IP address github should resolve to ^^
15:40:45 <Gregor> Yeah, 's not a DNS issue.
15:40:48 <Gregor> My DNS and 8.8.8.8 agree.
15:41:00 <elliott> maybe your DNS is being mitm'd
15:42:17 <ion> 204.232.175.90 here
15:42:23 <olsner> I'm also getting 204.232.175.90
15:42:36 <Gregor> Is Comcast blocking github? X-D
15:42:44 <ion> They may be, accidentally.
15:42:53 <olsner> probably, it's like filled with virus linux stuff
15:42:55 <ion> Mistakes with routing happen.
15:48:18 <Gregor> WTF, it loads fine through school.
15:48:34 <Gregor> So it really is just my home connection.
15:50:16 <fizzie> Maybe you have THE VIRUS.
15:50:21 <fizzie> I hear that's usually the case.
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16:38:05 <ion> Have you tried turning it off and on again?
16:44:56 <olsner> I'm sure github are willing to turn off github to help debug Gregor's internet problem
16:48:39 <olsner> hmm, found this comment in an old program I wrote: "It's essentially an implementation of APL's encode function (T), [...]"
16:48:46 <olsner> apparently I once knew APL
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16:54:58 <Taneb> I once knew how to make awesome palindromes.
16:55:05 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:55:52 <Gregor> I know how to make awesome palindromes semord nilape mose wa ekam ot wohw onki.
17:11:16 <olsner> Taneb: did you also know how to make awesome palindromes containing the word palindrome?
17:18:16 <FreeFull> A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!
17:18:39 -!- atriq has joined.
17:18:40 <FreeFull> > reverse "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal – Panama!"
17:18:41 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
17:18:49 <FreeFull> > reverse "A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (or a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon, a canal - Panama!"
17:18:50 <lambdabot> "!amanaP - lanac a ,noep a ,stah eros ,raj a ,hsac ,oloR a ,tur a ,mapS ,sn...
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17:22:11 <Sgeo> https://www.smore.com/clippy-js
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18:06:09 <Taneb> Is Azerbaijan the only Eurovision winner to share a border with Iran?
18:06:24 <Taneb> #important questions
18:07:00 <fizzie> Taneb: Turkey won in 2003.
18:07:10 <Taneb> #important answers
18:07:17 <Sgeo> There was a chat program that used Microsoft Agent
18:07:27 <Vorpal> I liked the song from Greece this time around. It was funky.
18:07:29 <Sgeo> I'd mess with people by sending the sleeping animation, the agent wouldn't wake up
18:07:40 <Sgeo> Got banned from ... talking to a bot, I think, that's kind of weird
18:09:15 <Bike> is armenia in the EU? probably not
18:09:53 <Vorpal> Bike, Israel isn't even in Europe, yet they are in eurovision. Wtf
18:10:03 <Sgeo> Also, I found Creatures because of the (tenuous connection) fact that they both use the word 'agent'
18:10:11 <fizzie> You don't have to be "in Europe", you just need to be in EBU.
18:10:15 <Bike> Vorpal: yeah that happens with a lot of europe things.
18:10:25 <Bike> basically lolisrael.
18:10:41 <Bike> the EBU seems to include, like, libya.
18:11:54 <fizzie> (And I guess Algeria too. Guess all that coast is "good enough".)
18:12:05 <olsner> the "associated members" seems to include pretty much everything
18:12:11 <Bike> huh, morroco participated
18:12:19 <Bike> in 1980 only though
18:12:22 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EBU_Member.svg
18:12:26 <Taneb> Morocco has applied to join the EU
18:12:33 <Taneb> I think Israel has, too
18:13:06 <Bike> "Tunisia was to perform fourth in the 1977 Contest's running order. The reason for the country's withdrawal was never officially established; rumours suggest ERTT did not want to compete with Israel"
18:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the bureaucratic overmind in the shadows behind eurovision
18:13:35 <fizzie> "The official rules of the Eurovision Song Contest are long, technical, and ever-changing," starts the Wikipedia article about them.
18:13:46 <Bike> hm scotland tried to enter
18:13:52 <fizzie> Sadly, there's no [weasel words] or any other tags there.
18:13:52 <Bike> #1 reason for independence right there
18:14:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if there is a tie?
18:14:24 <Bike> the EBU is dissolved and the soviet union takes over broadcasting powers in eurasia
18:14:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The current tie-breaking rule is that, in the event that two or more countries tie for first place and for other places the song that received points from the greater number of countries is the winner. This system is sometimes called the "count-back". If there is still a tie, the second tie-breaker is to count the number of countries who assigned twelve points to each entry in the tie. Tie-breaks continue with ten points, eight points, and so on
18:15:13 <Bike> i don't really get the EU anyway. I mean Cyprus. What's going on there.
18:15:13 <fizzie> (There was a tie in 1991, with a slightly different rule in place then.)
18:15:54 <Taneb> Bike, Cyprus asked nicely
18:16:44 <fizzie> Also, they had a four-way tie in 1969, and declared all four winners.
18:17:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember that, what was that about?
18:18:05 <fizzie> I remember watching the 2003 contest, when Turkey won by a margin of 2; nothing else about it, except that small margin. We all were certainly on the edges of our seats!
18:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> after like the 4th year in a row where the contest was won through bloc voting he basically just upped and left
18:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> then they replaced him with graham norton who was just not the same
18:18:32 <Vorpal> okay, I haven't watched since the previous time it was in Sweden.
18:18:37 <Vorpal> So that is like 10 years ago?
18:18:51 <Vorpal> okay maybe the time before that then
18:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> also he only did the commentary in the uk and maybe ireland
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18:19:43 <fizzie> It was in Sweden in 1999, and then in 2012.
18:19:54 <fizzie> And the Finnish commentary is always pretty awful.
18:20:10 <Vorpal> yeah I watched in 1999 and now again in 2013
18:20:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice name
18:20:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, sorry, 2000 and 2013; I was stating Swedish winner years.
18:21:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so even more than 5 or 6 years then
18:21:25 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover 2006
18:21:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the UK singer was pretty horrible IMO.
18:21:36 <Vorpal> Not a good singing voice at all
18:21:37 <Taneb> Same year as Lithuania entered with "We are the winners"
18:21:50 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's pretty much traditional that the UK sucks
18:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> afaict the uk strategy is now "pick some long-forgotten star of yesteryear and have them sing generic crap"
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18:22:11 <Vorpal> Really the Greek contribution was the best by far.
18:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they got bonnie tyler this year and for fuck's sake, if you're going to get bonnie tyler go the whole hog and do the whole overwrought 80s thing
18:22:44 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, who would you have chosen?
18:22:50 <Bike> http://storify.com/thomas_wiegold/esc-2013-syria-angle/embed i think this is the msot i know of eurovision
18:23:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it was so sad when benedict cumberbatch lost
18:23:16 <elliott> god dammit why didn't i think of that joke at the time
18:23:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the joke is it was engelbert humperdinck
18:23:47 <elliott> which sounds like someone making fun of benedict cumberbatch's name
18:24:26 <Bike> q ffor british people: does cumberbatch actually exist or is he just a joke
18:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> although i don't think cumberbatch would make it through due to the american ~geek~ market not having a vote
18:24:40 <elliott> Bike: he's a character created by a popular comedian
18:24:41 <Taneb> Bike, nobody knows
18:25:14 <elliott> engelbert humperdinck isn't his real name
18:25:22 <Bike> i'm thinking of http://www.theonion.com/video/meet-the-man-inside-the-nicolas-cage-costume,27318/ here
18:25:31 <elliott> he stole it from a real guy
18:26:00 <Taneb> (Phantom_Hoover, I remember when they worked out he was really dead because his star was still intact because they used it to kill a cyberman)
18:26:21 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, who are the "we" here
18:26:54 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, eh I don't even remember their thing
18:26:58 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Hey, you made it to the finals.
18:27:04 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, anyway the Greek were by far best
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18:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, my dad says nicolas cage is 'the best actor of his generation' trufax
18:27:30 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, didn't watch eurovision?
18:27:32 <fizzie> Greece had the "free booze" song.
18:27:32 <Bike> «Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, cracked to the outlet: “I am delighted that the Eurocrats have failed to crush national stereotyping, which is what makes Europe a great continent."» Q for british people: does europe actually exist or is it just a joke
18:27:56 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I didn't actually go through that torture
18:28:01 <Taneb> Bike, UKIP, I am afraid, very much does exist, much as we'd like it not to
18:28:44 <fizzie> Finland was third-last, which I think is quite average for us.
18:29:05 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, eh I had fun with a couple of friends, riffing on the bad singing. One of my friends is an actual musician (working as a software engineer nowdays, pretty good at both though). So he had fun telling the rest of us how they performed technically
18:30:09 <AnotherTest> I agree, it can be humorous at times, although I get annoyed too much to enjoy those times
18:30:09 <fizzie> Denmark and Azerbaijan both won their respective semi-finals, and were #1 and #2 in the final, so I guess people have at least been reasonably consistent.
18:30:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: name a single actor you would be sadder about dying
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18:31:20 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/GhAAB5N.jpg soviets: stay out of portland, bastards
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18:31:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, is Tom Hanks the Mission Impossible guy or the Forest Gump guy
18:32:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think the correct answer was probably bill murray
18:32:27 <Bike> the scientologist
18:32:32 <Bike> uhhhhh what's his actual name help
18:32:48 <Bike> no the other guy
18:32:52 <Bike> ...is tom hanks a scientologist
18:32:53 <fizzie> I wonder if the people who know they're going to have to be arranging the whole thing if their country wins try to vote for the most promising competitor, just in case that'd help.
18:32:58 <elliott> Bike: i mean the other guy
18:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ok look the reason it would be worst if tom hanks died is because he is doing a tv series of american gods sometime soon
18:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> is bill murray doing a tv series of american gods sometime soon? a: no
18:34:26 <fizzie> There's an Angry Birds animated series nowadays, something I learned the other day. (Makes sense.)
18:34:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, imagine if Greece had won, they couldn't have afforded it
18:34:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Having a zero-budget version could've been rather interesting, though.
18:35:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, sure, host it in a barn somewhere, put up a couple of spotlights, and that's it
18:35:46 <fizzie> Someone's dad's old camera phone for the video stream.
18:36:19 <fizzie> It does VGA-resolution video, that's pretty respectable.
18:36:38 <Vorpal> is 800x600 VGA? I forget
18:37:03 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg <-- pretty crazy
18:37:47 <fizzie> The megapixel curves are nice.
18:38:00 <Vorpal> My work monitors are WUXGA it seems, and I'm currently using a WSXGA+
18:39:18 <fizzie> The graph doesn't quite have the full list, anyway.
18:40:20 <Vorpal> I used to have a 5:3 monitor at one point, think it was 1280x768
18:41:06 <Vorpal> I also had a SXGA+ at one point
18:41:29 <fizzie> I had a 1280x1024 screen, that's 5:4; it's kind of the strange exception from 4:3 in the "standard" list of resolutions.
18:41:47 <Vorpal> Yep, had one of those too
18:41:47 <Bike> hm does this involve smooth numbers, like old music
18:42:00 <myname> i have a 1600x768 screen, that's 25:12 and pretty awesome
18:42:14 <Vorpal> myname, that is not even listed
18:42:26 <Bike> still 5-smooth
18:42:43 <Vorpal> I seem to remember a 1440x1024 one?
18:43:03 <Bike> my netbook is uh... 128:75. ok
18:43:23 <Vorpal> Too lazy to calculate 1440x1280
18:43:34 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `R.%' (imported from Data.Ratio)
18:43:40 <Bike> ok well it's 9:8
18:43:43 <myname> 25:12 is like "yeah, 4:3 on the left and two terminals on the rright"
18:43:56 <Bike> f u haskell more like where are my ratios skell
18:44:17 <Bike> yeah but irrationals are also in R!!!!
18:44:21 <Bike> > 1440 R.% 1280
18:44:41 <myname> 9:8 sounds pretty crazy
18:44:50 <Bike> > 1024 R.% 600 -- mine
18:45:32 <Bike> (still 5-smooth)
18:45:32 <Vorpal> Speaking of which, what good monitor brands/models are there? I want a good pair for a dual screen setup but not super-expensive. 16:10
18:46:06 <Vorpal> I'm tried of having to use books to get my monitor the right height, so I want proper adjustable stands
18:46:15 <Vorpal> Thinking about syncmaster, are they still good?
18:46:25 <Vorpal> Had one ages ago that was nice
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18:46:44 <myname> by the way: what the fuck is wrong with sony? they made the vaio duo with an OPTICAL TRACK POINT
18:46:58 <myname> it's basically a miniature touchpad in the middle of the keyboard
18:47:13 <Vorpal> myname, proper track point is far better
18:47:36 <Vorpal> You can't beat a proper trackpoint on a laptop, far superior to touchpads
18:47:39 <fizzie> Isn't it more of an inverted optical mouse than a miniature touchpad, though?
18:47:53 <Taneb> You know, when I first started playing Minecraft, I played with one hand
18:48:12 <fizzie> I'm not going to ask what the other hand was doing.
18:48:14 <Taneb> Because I was playing with voicechat, and the only decent mic I could find was handheld
18:48:16 <fizzie> (I'm just going to imply.)
18:48:22 <myname> fizzie: it's like hell
18:48:27 <Vorpal> I would like a trackpoint on my desktop keyboard, for quick mouse usage that doesn't require the precision of a normal mouse
18:48:50 <myname> i can't even move from one side of the monitor to the other
18:49:01 <Vorpal> myname, didn't try before you bought?
18:49:03 <fizzie> Haven't seen that many standalone trackballs around recently.
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18:49:33 <myname> Vorpal: i did, that's the reason i hadn't bought it
18:49:46 <myname> i'm looking for a replacement of my netbook and haven't found one yet
18:50:12 <Vorpal> myname, I would generally recommend thinkpads for good portable computers, but not sure about netbooks
18:50:25 <myname> i am really disappointed by thinkpads
18:50:38 <Vorpal> I love mine, a bit old now, Core 2 Duo
18:50:40 <elliott> Unicomp sell keyboards with trackpoints
18:50:41 <myname> they are either pretty large (>12") or have a crappy resolution
18:51:07 <Vorpal> myname, yeah I have a 15.4", because I actually want to use it for stuff, I have large hands
18:51:22 <myname> Vorpal: no real reason, imo
18:51:27 <myname> i want something to take with me
18:51:36 <myname> and my netbook has a pretty large keyboard actually
18:51:38 <Vorpal> I used mine while at university
18:51:44 <Vorpal> myname, full size keys?
18:51:58 <Vorpal> I can't use anything less
18:52:50 <Vorpal> myname, on a normal keyboard I can comfortably reach left ctrl-p with my right hand. Can't quite do that on this MS Natural Keyboard I'm using
18:52:54 <fizzie> Also weird thing: the local hardware (as in, non-computer such) store had switched to a Torx screw heads for all the "generic" screws they sold.
18:53:09 <Vorpal> More like Ctrl-u with this
18:53:29 <myname> 1.3x1.2 cm with 0.3 cm space between the keys
18:53:59 <Vorpal> myname, so slightly smaller than full size then, just enough to throw off blind typing
18:54:13 <olsner> fizzie: torx is supposed to be good for something, isn't it?
18:54:19 <myname> Vorpal: it's my only device with a keyboard so i can type pretty easy
18:54:35 <Vorpal> well yeah you would get used to it
18:54:42 <olsner> or maybe they just realized they have a higher markup on torx drivers and wanted to force everyone to get new stuff from them
18:54:58 <Vorpal> myname, I couldn't live without a large monitor to fill with windows. I use a 3-monitor setup at work
18:55:40 <myname> Vorpal: well, i can have 6 terminals with 87x31 chars
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18:56:24 <fizzie> olsner: For torque, I would assume.
18:56:36 <Vorpal> olsner, it doesn't slip
18:56:46 <fizzie> The screw of the future.
18:56:58 <myname> torx is pretty nice actually
18:57:02 <olsner> Screw the Future: Torx
18:57:20 <Vorpal> Not sure how much s torx screw costs compared to a normal one
18:57:42 <myname> well, at least i never managed to destroy a sinle one
18:57:45 <fizzie> I don't think they had really changed prices at the same time.
18:57:52 <myname> i kill other screws all the time
18:58:10 <fizzie> And I'm sure it's all nice, just most of my screwdrivers are old-fashioned.
18:58:19 <Vorpal> " The official generic name, standardized by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO 10664, is hexalobular internal."
18:58:49 <fizzie> "-- often referred to by the original proprietary brand name Torx (pronounced "torks") or by the alternate generic name star drive --" yeah, I can see why people'd prefer a star drive.
18:59:44 <oerjan> <olsner> ooh, here's the part where they do countries and numbers in french again <- roajåm yni, di poä
19:00:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I watch it solely for the french points.
19:00:41 * oerjan _actually_ only remembers roajåm yni from eurovision and doesn't know how it's properly spelled
19:00:59 <olsner> there's also lazerbaijan
19:01:19 <olsner> oerjan: what country is that?
19:02:36 <olsner> oh, I thought they'd use l'anglais for that
19:03:10 <oerjan> olsner: i suspect the scottish would quickly complain if they did that
19:03:23 <olsner> I suspect the french wouldn't care :)
19:04:08 <Taneb> Isn't it l'angleterre?
19:05:20 <Bike> why have i not seen more angle/angle puns...
19:05:33 <Vorpal> Bike, because they are terrible?
19:05:54 <Bike> yes but that's true of puns in general and yet here we are
19:07:20 <Bike> is the answer that we call all those guys "anglos" now
19:07:48 <oerjan> elliott: angle buffalo?
19:08:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles !!!!!
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19:10:06 <Bike> «“Bene, nam et angelicam habent faciem, et tales angelorum in caelis decet esse coheredes” ("It is well, for they have an angelic face, and such people ought to be co-heirs of the angels in heaven")» lol wow.
19:15:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> No, I mean, the whole point is to vote for neighbor countries and such. <-- hm which of the neighbors was the only one to vote for estonia again...
19:15:46 <oerjan> i vaguely think it was latvia, but maybe it was finland
19:18:16 <oerjan> <Bike> in any case there are so many ways you could define it that mandating any particular one would be silly <-- "the determinant of a (square) matrix is a number satisfying any of the following equivalent properties ..." hth
19:19:19 <oerjan> unfortunately doing that on a test increases your chances of getting one of them wrong, i guess
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19:27:30 <fizzie> oerjan: I think we've historically given Estonia at least some amount of points; only 6 this year, though. (Our 8 went to Netherlands, and 10 to Hungary, but at least the 12 went to Norway.)
19:28:02 <fizzie> (3 from Lithuania to Estonia.)
19:28:13 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i'm used to it all being arbitrary fields <-- i think determinants can even be done over commutative rings (the commutativity is necessary, though)
19:28:42 <fizzie> Actually, Estonia's entire points this year: 3 from Lithuania, 6 from Finland, 10 from Latvia.
19:28:49 <fizzie> So the neighbour-voting's going strong.
19:29:06 <fizzie> (Maybe not as strong as sometimes, but still.)
19:29:07 <kmc> voting rings :O
19:29:34 <elliott> kmc: are they commutative?
19:29:39 <elliott> I hear that's necessary to determine what they are.
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19:31:18 <oerjan> shachaf: you highlight on hichaf?
19:32:00 <oerjan> admittedly i search the logs for rjan, but i haven't bothered changing client highlighting.
19:32:04 <shachaf> Maybe I should hilight on \Spuns\b too.
19:32:24 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:32:33 <fizzie> "[Torx] was developed in 1967 by Camcar Textron." (emphasis mine) I thought that was someone's name.
19:32:56 <Vorpal> örjan, So you don't highlight on this then?
19:33:00 <oerjan> (occasionally someone does the weird thing and turns the oe into some stupid unicode character from latin-1, imagine why...)
19:33:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: no. actually i'm on webchat right now so i'm not even keeping settings.
19:34:31 <oerjan> fizzie: oh right. estonia got their first points so late, i didn't notice they got any further after that.
19:34:56 <zzo38> In the Z-machine, the mouse can have up to sixteen buttons, and is possible to not have any buttons at all, is also allowed.
19:36:00 <oerjan> fizzie: dörmögő dömötör
19:36:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, sounds Icelandic
19:36:47 <oerjan> Vorpal: hungarian actually
19:37:08 <fizzie> I was going to guess Hungarian, based on the ő, but was just looking if they have an ö too.
19:37:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6rm%C3%B6g%C5%91_D%C3%B6m%C3%B6t%C3%B6r
19:38:22 <kmc> yeah they do
19:38:27 <oerjan> my mom had a sample of the magazine when she was learning hungarian
19:38:45 <shachaf> zzo38: The Z-machine is good.
19:38:49 <kmc> ö is to ő as o is to ó
19:39:17 <oerjan> iirc the words mean "grumbling bear" or thereabouts. except perhaps with whatever bears do instead of grumbling.
19:40:26 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure they don't howl or purr though
19:40:31 <fizzie> They moan, bark, huff, growl and roar, according to Wikipedia. (What wouldn't it know.)
19:40:46 <oerjan> oh hm if i am to believe google translate it's "growling demetrius"
19:40:48 <fizzie> Though it's not claiming that as an exclusive list.
19:42:11 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/g2/d/24470-2/p1150577.jpg <- bear.
19:42:13 <kmc> preved medved
19:43:24 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/24467-2/p1150573.jpg <- maybe the same bear?
19:43:26 <Vorpal> Is the hugs project still alive?
19:43:30 <fizzie> (It's through a restaurant window.)
19:43:44 <fizzie> (It was that bear burger place.)
19:44:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you mean bear meat in the burger?
19:44:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: last i heard there had been no update for years. after ghci got good enough, it just took over.
19:45:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, sad that there is only one de facto implementation of haskell nowdays
19:45:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, who can say? Cf. http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-05-14#070135fizzie
19:45:23 <Vorpal> kmc, chrome displays that as xn--nxa
19:45:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It displays as β.zem.fi if you add Greek to the list of languages you know. :p
19:45:54 -!- olsner has joined.
19:46:26 <pikhq> Just an anti-phishing feature.
19:46:29 <zzo38> Isn't Hugs written in C though? It would help, if Hugs is capable of running GHC.
19:46:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure it makes sense to display these as xn-- variants, that is going to confuse most non-tech-savy people
19:46:36 <fizzie> (I've done that, and all it got me was a "this browser is unique" result in Panopticlick.)
19:46:54 <oerjan> zzo38: hugs cannot run ghc, no.
19:47:04 <olsner> hmm, I guess I've missed about 15 minutes of your banter now
19:47:07 <zzo38> oerjan: Then it isn't very good.
19:47:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: The idea is that it prevents phishing by way of internationalized domains that *look* like something else.
19:47:29 <oerjan> zzo38: it's ghc which uses too many of its own extensions to be compiled with anything else.
19:47:36 <pikhq> "Random gibberish" is better than actively misleading domains.
19:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, mine is unique too
19:47:51 <fizzie> Apparently "en-US,en;q=0.8,fi;q=0.6,el;q=0.4" is an unique Accept-Language list.
19:48:00 <zzo38> I just disable internationalized domains
19:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, My plugin list is unqiue
19:48:11 <zzo38> fizzie: Can you not set up the Accept-Language list separately from those?
19:48:30 <Vorpal> text/html, */* ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3 gzip,deflate,sdch en-US,en;q=0.8,sv;q=0.6,en-GB;q=0.4 is unique too
19:48:33 <fizzie> zzo38: Not from the regular settings dialog, at least.
19:49:05 <olsner> hmm, sounds like bears have roughly the same set of sounds as dogs
19:49:05 <fizzie> "Shared Dictionary Compression over HTTP" instead.
19:49:15 <fizzie> Though the "sd" part could've been that.
19:49:21 <pikhq> http://www.xn--pypal-4ve.com/ is a shit-load better.
19:49:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, think that is generally spdy
19:49:45 <oerjan> fizzie: you prefer english to finnish?
19:50:41 <fizzie> oerjan: Certainly. I mean... Finnish.
19:50:48 <FreeFull> There are too many haskell json libraries
19:50:58 <oerjan> olsner: well yes, but i think i still have norwegian first
19:51:00 <Taneb> FreeFull, aseson is the cool one
19:51:03 <Bike> they must be culled
19:51:18 <Taneb> I'm gonna leave and never come back now
19:51:30 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I'll miss you, IRC).
19:51:35 <FreeFull> It seems more optimised for speed than simplicity
19:51:54 <oerjan> i hope this is just a ploy to get time for his evil world takeover, and not something serious.
19:51:59 <fizzie> oerjan: The worst thing is that I get a lot of Swedish due to the IPv6 tunnel (with an endpoint in Sweden) and geoip things. I mean... Swedish.
19:52:06 <Bike> what is the kolmogorov complexity of json
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19:52:39 <oerjan> fizzie: svenska är slik en ljuvliga språk, nej?
19:52:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Slick and lightlike, yes.
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19:53:33 <zzo38> I think it would be improve if, you write something like: /https?:\/\/(.*\.)?wikipedia\.org\// { Accept-Language: "en-US,en;q=0.8,fi;q=0.6,el;q=0.4"; internationalized_domains=true; } else /telnet:\/\/(.*)(|:[0-9]+)\/?/ { ......
19:54:07 <fizzie> IKEA has a chair called POÄNG, I can never not think of the Eurovision when coming across that.
19:54:17 <fizzie> "POÄNG makes relaxing easy."
19:55:11 <zzo38> It might be better if everything the browser does is overridden by configuration files like this
19:55:39 <FreeFull> All I want to do is try to extract two values from a json string, with some error handling
19:55:50 <shachaf> oerjan: should i learn norwegian instead of finnish
19:56:28 <oerjan> fizzie: next year, sit down in your POÄNG and watch eurovision on your UPPLEVA hth
19:56:53 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:57:01 <fizzie> oerjan: My BESTÅ/UPPLEVA, I suppose.
19:57:02 <zzo38> Is there any version of SQL which can create anonymous tables/views/etc and store their reference in a table, and to create a view to override an existing table/view and then allow the override to be removed later?
19:57:02 <oerjan> shachaf: no, you're stuck with finnish now hth, although you can do swedish also
19:57:20 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, why am I stuck with Finnish?
19:57:28 <zzo38> And furthermore to allow creating and dropping tables/views/index/triggers/etc inside of a trigger?
19:57:59 <fizzie> fungot: Did you know you live on an IKEA thing?
19:57:59 <fungot> fizzie: in the next two to the vice president of the as gets exercised an option. regents of the lunch. eric t. 06, 2000
19:58:09 <oerjan> shachaf: it was a side effect of the papers you had to sign to get away from the finnish army hth
19:58:33 <fizzie> fungot: You're in a LERBERG hth.
19:58:34 <fungot> fizzie: are we meeting that little trading operation of the new) and danno b(alchemy) 9 of the ena and affiliated, are forbidden by will mcnamara of dow k to your information.
19:58:35 <oerjan> the part in tiny, finnish script
19:58:47 <zzo38> Would you find such features of SQL to be useful?
19:59:31 <kmc> wow IKEA sells TVs now?
19:59:55 <fizzie> They sell an EXPERIENCE.
20:00:22 <shachaf> kmc: 70 people said they would show up to bayhac today and only ~30 people showed up but there is 70 people's worth of pizza
20:00:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Perhaps you can save it for later, then, or in case some people want more pizza they can have it, especially in case there are also some people who don't want pizza
20:01:10 <Bike> i don't think you understand pizza
20:01:15 <oerjan> kmc: fizzie was actually making a pun hth
20:01:40 <elliott> shachaf: you cn send me the pizza
20:02:30 <shachaf> elliott: the joke is that when we had too much pizza at boston haskell kmc took the leftovers home
20:02:32 <oerjan> fizzie: you should czech that out
20:03:00 <shachaf> elliott: solution: move to america?? the inventors of pizza hth
20:04:15 <oerjan> itt shachaf dooms himself by angering the napolitan mafia
20:05:29 <shachaf> did itt migrate to oerjan via kmc or another path
20:05:58 <oerjan> i definitely noticed kmc using it
20:06:12 <FreeFull> I think I'll either use AttoJSON or hjpath
20:06:55 * oerjan has shitty meme absorbing powers.
20:07:11 <fizzie> Why don't they sell no-cheese pizza here? They had a lot of that going on in e.g. Sorrento, Italy, Italy. (To differentiate from Sorrento, Italy, Some State, US, which I'm sure exists; I understand every place is duplicated there.)
20:07:21 <oerjan> that's (shitty meme) absorbing powers, not shitty (meme absorbing powers), but you already knew that.
20:08:08 <oerjan> itt FreeFull gets swatted ----### hth
20:08:30 <oerjan> i blame webchat, or this keyboard.
20:09:15 -!- olsner has joined.
20:09:43 <oerjan> also that swat was only because i instinctively connect F_F_ with swattability hth
20:10:35 <oklopol> so turns out split epicity of block maps between sofic shifts is decidable
20:11:04 <oklopol> iirc i used to announce results here at some point?
20:11:17 <shachaf> oerjan: do you also connect chaf\b with swattability
20:11:20 <oerjan> oklopol: that is possible
20:11:49 <oerjan> well no more than normal
20:12:30 <oklopol> at least when i was doing my master's degree i recall that you broke an early proof sketch of my main result without admitting that you understood what it was about
20:12:53 <shachaf> ‘run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i 's/dal/dahl/g' "$f"; done
20:12:54 -!- fungot has changed nick to FunFot.
20:13:03 <oerjan> oklopol: wait split epicity is there an actual exact sequence in category theory involved here?
20:13:05 <kmc> FunFot: hi
20:13:10 <kmc> fungot: hi
20:13:10 <FunFot> kmc: go to: http://www20.cera.com/ client/ ge the timing on one of the mentioned or related financial instruments that are in the right of the expiration of the rate the securities and exchange commission
20:13:25 <fizzie> (No dynamic nickery trackery.)
20:13:44 <oklopol> oerjan: should there be? our article is about taking random category theory terms and seeing what they look like for block maps.
20:13:56 -!- FunFot has changed nick to fungot.
20:13:57 <fungot> I'm too dummy to track my own name.
20:14:17 <oklopol> and split monicity is actually like among the top 3 most famous results in the field
20:14:19 <fungot> olsner: they might get the true lowdown on the market.
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20:14:49 <oerjan> <oklopol> at least when i was doing my master's degree i recall that you broke an early proof sketch of my main result without admitting that you understood what it was about <-- i think that was sort of amusing, except i don't quite remember it.
20:14:56 <fizzie> olsner: Dum, but knows finance, I suppose.
20:14:59 <oklopol> whereas split epicity turned out to be really hard
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20:16:40 <oklopol> oerjan: what do split epis have to do with exact sequences?
20:16:41 <oerjan> oklopol: well i recall split exact sequences were important in the theory around my phd, that was for C*-algebras which we often produced from dynamical systems
20:17:00 <FachaF> i demand to be swatted
20:17:27 <oerjan> in module categories, a sequence A - B - 0 is exact if the map from A to B is epic
20:17:37 <oklopol> so does "the subshift generated by the fixed point of the fibonacci substitution" say anything to you
20:18:08 <oklopol> because we've been doing some stuff on automorphism groups of minimal systems generated by substitutions
20:18:19 <oklopol> and didn't you study something very similar
20:18:57 <oerjan> and split exactness for 0 - A - B - C - 0 means that the maps split B into a direct sum of A and C, except i vaguely recall that when A,B,C were C*-algebras it was not quite a direct sum of C*-algebras, something stayed at the module level. or something like that.
20:19:00 <oklopol> i don't know pretty much anything about C* algebras, except that our topology professor really really likes them
20:19:45 <oklopol> well split epic = has a right inverse
20:21:14 <oerjan> itt we investigate the theory that -chaf right-cancels the swattability of F.*F.*
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20:23:03 <oerjan> oklopol: we _did_ look at minimal substitution shift systems, their bratteli-vershik diagrams are particularly easy to calculate. and i think the fibonacci substitution was one of the frequent examples, like morse-thue.
20:24:03 <oklopol> we proved that for certain substitutions, the automorphism group of the subshift has Z (the shifts) as a finite index subgroup
20:24:56 <oerjan> i don't remember looking at automorphism groups of subshifts
20:25:11 <oklopol> afaik they haven't really been studied much
20:25:55 <oklopol> it's known that for substitutions where images of letters are equally long, the group only contains radius 2 maps
20:26:07 <oklopol> (radius 2 cellular automata that is)
20:26:19 <oklopol> (and up to a power of the shift)
20:26:28 <oklopol> this was in some french paper
20:26:34 <oklopol> with incomprehensible integrals and stuff
20:26:41 * oerjan declares he won't have time to finish logreading today
20:26:53 <shachaf> oerjan: what about norwegian logreading
20:27:30 <oklopol> and then it's known that for sturmian systems, only shifts are automorphisms, this was proved this year, although i'd be surprised if no one knew that
20:27:43 <oerjan> shachaf: oh come on i didn't even misple it
20:28:48 <oerjan> oklopol: hm automorphisms are just homeomorphisms commuting with the shift right?
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20:39:18 <oklopol> we are interested in all continuous self-maps which commute with the shift, but they are automatically automorphisms by a result.
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20:44:38 <oerjan> oklopol: in which case my advisor et al's result about orbit equivalence of Z^n group actions to actions by a single subshift would apply to the combination. not that it's really relevant...
20:45:20 <oerjan> or maybe it is, my brain isn't up to thinking much about this any more.
20:46:00 <oklopol> what does "action by a single subshift" mean
20:46:44 <oerjan> er i mean action by the shift in a subshift
20:47:15 <oerjan> or maybe it's just generally a minimal action, depends whether it's expansive.
20:48:32 <oerjan> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00222-009-0213-7#
20:49:32 <oerjan> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.136.7674 is an earlier result that only goes up to 2
20:51:04 <oerjan> almost finite-something, basically what you get when you read the infinite graph of a bratteli-vershik diagram as a group action on the infinite paths.
20:51:35 <oerjan> where the group action is swapping things down to finitely many levels.
20:51:37 <oklopol> i should check out bratteli-vershik diagrams again, they might make more sense now
20:52:14 <oerjan> well only the bratteli part is used for AF iirc, the vershik part is to extend it to work with Z-actions (which includes subshifts)
20:53:03 <oerjan> but every minimal AF-relation is orbit equivalent to a minimal system, and vice versa. that's an older result which they are building upon here
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20:56:16 <oklopol> are you in contact with these guys still
20:57:15 <oerjan> i met my advisor some years ago and he told me about these new results when they were about to get them published
21:01:14 <oklopol> can you fix me a post-doc position there
21:02:07 <oerjan> i cannot even fix my own life, oklopol
21:03:27 <oklopol> if you fix mine i'll fix yours
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21:38:07 <Sgeo> elliott, http://worms2d.info/Play_Worms_Armageddon_on_Linux ?
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21:48:22 <zzo38> C++ has too much operator overloading; my "Black-C" specification does different operator overloading, with various restrictions such as, you cannot override assignments unless it is through a pointer, the [] and -> operators can be overridden only indirectly by overriding the indirection operator, etc
21:48:48 <zzo38> Which I think is a better way for C, even if not for C++.
21:49:17 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
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22:09:04 <Gregor> elliott, Sgeo: I don't know where the conversation came from, but I can confirm that Worms Armageddon works fine on Linux on wine (on Steam), as I have it.
22:13:40 <Gregor> Nowait, I have Worms Reloaded.
22:13:46 <Gregor> I am so good memories.
22:14:06 <shachaf> Gregor: why do you have voice
22:16:10 <Gregor> Do not fear the voice.
22:26:25 <zzo38> That doesn't answer the question.
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22:43:51 <Sgeo> https://github.com/emre/macster
22:46:20 <Lumpio-> zzo38: But overloading [] lets you do neat stuff like: map<string, string> foo; foo["bar"] = "baz";
22:48:34 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I suppose it does, but things like that isn't for C.
22:48:46 <pikhq> I think you can manage that with just overloading + and unary *. :)
22:49:36 <Lumpio-> So if your thing going to do overloading or something then
22:49:57 <pikhq> (and yes, that's commutative)
22:51:58 <Sgeo> Should I buy Nexus 4 or wait for new Nexus?
23:08:06 <zzo38> pikhq: This is how my specification does it; it does it like that.
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23:21:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Question, do you wish for function pointers to be castable through void*?
23:22:05 <pikhq> (note that ISO C does *not* permit this)
23:22:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Probably they should be, but I know that on some computers it might not be possible. You can use a union if you need to.
23:22:46 <pikhq> (note also that POSIX requires this)
23:22:52 <zzo38> (e.g. on harvard computers, and possibly some others too)
23:23:53 <pikhq> I think it's actually feasible on a Harvard architecture, though your void*s will need to be wider than the system's addresses.
23:24:11 <pikhq> And have void* contain a flag for whether it's in instruction or data memory.
23:24:27 <zzo38> Yes, if you do it like that.
23:25:03 <pikhq> As contrary to popular belief there's no reason for C pointers to directly correspond to system addresses. :)
23:26:06 <pikhq> But alas, people like to think of C as a "portable assembly" when it's an abstract machine that happens to be implementable on popular computers with fairly minimal overhead.
23:26:38 <zzo38> It depends on the target.
23:27:15 <zzo38> On the Z-machine, function pointers and data pointers have a different format, even though both are sixteen bits; there are also text pointers which have another different format.
23:28:58 <zzo38> Some people may call C as a "portable assembly", but assembly languages cannot really be portable; that is why there is C which is somewhat close, but not quite.
23:34:30 <kmc> some uses of "C as portable assembly" would be better described as "C as portable compiler IR"
23:34:34 <kmc> which is more legit
23:34:43 <kmc> because a compiler IR is allowed to have abstract semantics and fancy backend optimizations
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