00:03:39 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, that's entirely legit.
00:04:19 <pikhq> Ultimately all you care about for a compiler IR is that it performs well.
00:10:40 <pikhq> Though I'll note that C is not very good as a compiler IR for Brainfuck.
00:10:48 <pikhq> GCC *hates* LostKng. :)
00:11:39 <Sgeo> I should play that at some point probabl
00:16:17 <pikhq> (really, the problematic bit there is GCC uses a truly insane amount of RAM for that)
00:17:05 <pikhq> GCC, building LostKng converted to C, uses insane quantities of RAM.
00:17:10 <Sgeo> I thought the problematic bit was that trying to interpret one language as being in a different language ... oh
00:17:46 <pikhq> Well. It doesn't on esotope-bfc output.
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00:17:55 <pikhq> Anything less sophisticated though? Yeesh.
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00:23:08 <pikhq> Huh. gcc-4.8 is actually much more reasonable.
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02:36:58 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to get my hands on a copy of Fitznik at some point
02:37:01 <Sgeo> wonder if it works on WINE
02:37:27 <Bike> http://media.tumblr.com/8d532386ec91813faa0a66aa635b56b4/tumblr_inline_mn2oigp0nC1qz4rgp.gif
02:38:05 <Sgeo> Reminds me of that screensaver
02:38:19 <Sgeo> Which... reminds me of another screensaver, that I liked as a kid, and couldn't find again
02:45:20 <Sgeo> "Fitznik 2 features 65,000 color graphics and requires a Windows computer running at 500Mhz or faster."
02:51:42 <Sgeo> Fitznik did not like WINE
02:51:48 <Sgeo> Now I have to reset my rsolution, ugh
02:53:24 <Gregor> Is there any software on Earth more buggy than fluidsynth X_X
02:53:45 <JesseH> I am considering creating a new esoteric language :P
02:56:42 <Sgeo> I assume that this game uses .xm files, but don't know how to GET AT THEM
02:57:10 <Bike> is the language called :P
02:58:23 <Sgeo> strings shows me a list of files in this file
03:00:13 <Sgeo> It's just a zip file. Just opened it.
03:01:11 <Sgeo> And... I'm an idiot and unzipped in ~
03:09:19 <Sgeo> ..ok... I try to apt-get install mplayer and it tries to upgrade glibc
03:11:41 <Sgeo> Gregor, does zsudo count?
03:12:29 <Gregor> I doubt if it could conceivably be more buggy than fluidsynth.
03:13:41 <pikhq> https://raw.github.com/cbcercas/zpanel-freebsd/master/config_packs/freebsd/bin/zsudo.c Feast your eyes.
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03:39:50 <Gregor> Oh look, I can get to github again.
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03:40:34 <Sgeo_> Gregor, now go, and behold zsudo!
03:40:35 <Gregor> As mind-bogglingly buggy as that is, it's simply too insubstantial to be as buggy as fluidsynth.
03:40:43 <Gregor> It may have more bugs per line, but it cannot have as many bugs.
03:41:34 <Bike> gregxor, the monster attacking tokyo
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03:52:08 <zzo38> Do you have the right to commit suicide?
03:52:33 <Bike> yep, the union negotiated that one back in '74
03:54:08 <quintopia> zzo38: i think it depends on whether you have the mercurial password for the suicide project
03:54:11 <zzo38> (In case you don't know, I do mean you personally.)
03:54:37 <Bike> yes, by the union i meant my union
03:56:43 <quintopia> typedef union {Bike bike; Suicide suicide} myunion;
03:57:26 <kmc> i like that zzo38 means "you personally" and yet he asked the question immediately after joining
03:58:05 <Bike> he meant I, Bike, and nobody else
03:58:36 <shachaf> zzo38 asked the question personally of each of us
04:02:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is what I mean.
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04:05:36 <quintopia> zzo38: serious answer: no, i have no right to commit suicide. society needs me too badly.
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04:17:11 <Sgeo_> I just thought of a use I have for a Raspberry Pi
04:17:26 <Sgeo_> I could finish transferring my data off the damaged HD
04:17:45 <Sgeo_> Without tying up one of my normal computers.
04:21:28 <kmc> http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/41095.wss "IBM brings COBOL to cloud and mobile"
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04:27:03 <olsner> and of course you didn't see any of that, the internet is broken
04:28:46 <Jafet> C stands for cloud right
04:29:13 <Bike> cloud oriented business originality language
04:29:21 <Jafet> “With more than 200 billion lines of COBOL code being used across industries such as banking, insurance, retail and human resources”
04:30:32 <Jafet> > 200e9 / (50 * 365 * 100)
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04:34:11 <kmc> yeah I took a programming languages survey class in college and we had a lecture where we filled out a big matrix of programming languages and their properties
04:34:34 <kmc> and when we got to COBOL the only thing any of us (including the instructor) knew was that more lines of COBOL had been written than anything else
04:34:37 <Bike> a linear operator on the vector space of pointless bullshit
04:34:47 <kmc> maybe i should learn COBOL and put it on my resume
04:36:13 <kmc> you know how they say that a bunch of COBOL programmers came out of retirement and made mad cash fixing Y2K bugs?
04:36:14 <Bike> business oriented language, that is uncommon
04:36:22 <kmc> i want to do that for Y2038 bugs
04:36:36 <Bike> how many unix systems use cobol
04:36:40 <Bike> or. wait i get it nvm
04:36:53 <Sgeo_> I knew a bit of COBOL
04:36:59 <Sgeo_> Read a For Dummies book on it
04:36:59 <kmc> i assume that by 2038, Linux and x86 will just be a useless ignored compatibility layer between some webapp framework and some cloud hypervisor
04:37:03 <kmc> even moreso than today
04:37:11 <kmc> and so few people will still learn that layer
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04:37:39 <Sgeo_> Saw it in a bookstore, and misremembered 'CORBA'
04:37:54 <Sgeo_> (Which was a thing I wanted to learn about after seeing it referenced somewhere)
04:37:56 <Bike> man what am i gonna be doing in 2038. i'll be like, 90 or something
04:38:17 <kmc> i'll turn 50 that year
04:38:22 <Bike> we'll have abandoned traditional numerics by then you see
04:38:25 <kmc> maybe Supertrain will have opened by then
04:40:33 <shachaf> copumpkin: bayhac was p. good
04:40:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: we all wished you were here
04:41:20 <shachaf> maybe other people too i didn't ask..
04:42:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: I won't ask about that story.
04:44:22 <shachaf> copumpkin: Do you have any good puzzles for me?
04:44:37 <pikhq> It is possible to have a git repository that goes all Oroboros.
04:44:45 <pikhq> With a commit having itself as its parent.
04:45:10 <pikhq> It lets you say "when you would read this blob, read this blob instead".
04:45:24 <pikhq> This is actually a git feature.
04:45:33 <Bike> what's it for.
04:45:43 <pikhq> You can say "read SHA1 X when you would read SHA1 Y"
04:46:01 <copumpkin> shachaf: what kind of puzzle do you want?
04:46:04 <pikhq> Additionally, a crazy SHA1 collision could do this. :P
04:46:08 <pikhq> Bike: Stupid hacks.
04:46:15 <Bike> i love stupid hacks (no i don't)
04:46:38 <kmc> i found a script to bruteforce vanity SHA1s for git commits
04:46:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: Well -- a good kind.
04:46:48 <kmc> there should be a GPU version of that
04:46:51 <Bike> vanity SHAs. stupid future
04:47:10 <kmc> glad that my "stupid future" meme is catching on
04:47:17 <kmc> too bad Bitcoin ASICs are probably useless for that
04:47:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: There was a bitcoin conference here this weekend.
04:48:02 <Bike> you are my meme hero kmc. look forward to seeing your face or whatever on a colored background, with large white text about.... stuff.
04:48:11 <shachaf> roconnor wrote a weblog post about me!!!!!
04:48:18 <Bike> i dunno what kids meme about. cats
04:48:30 <shachaf> no it was about prisms but it mentioned me
04:48:52 <kmc> Photoshop Hero
04:49:08 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/80d930bdb551243156afc40d0d184079/tumblr_mn2vcakVNp1qblhajo1_1280.png
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04:50:20 <olsner> btw, http://modularcircuits.tantosonline.com/blog/articles/the-cray-files/ was what I was talking about while pinging out
04:50:34 <olsner> that and the 2GB/s SSD you could get for your Cray X-MP/4
04:51:01 <shachaf> copumpkin: You always have good puzzles.
04:51:04 * olsner reloads the logs to see if any of this is getting anywhere
04:51:18 <kmc> is that like Jeopardy!
04:51:45 <pikhq> Dammit, github does not support git replace.
04:51:52 <Bike> wouldn't it be more like um
04:51:58 <Bike> that story about the philosophy professor
04:52:44 <copumpkin> shachaf: how about: "you're somewhere on earth (a perfect sphere), and you walk a mile south, a mile west, and a mile north, and end up back where you started. Where could you be?"
04:53:16 <Bike> an irritated cartogarpher's office
04:53:22 <olsner> on a multidirectional treadmill
04:53:31 <kmc> the bear is white because it's a polar bear
04:53:39 <copumpkin> kmc: that's the obvious answer, but there are lots more
04:53:44 <kmc> i think they have 2D treadmills
04:53:47 <kmc> but i don't remember how they work
04:54:14 <Bike> my dad got a book of thoe 'lateral thinking' puzzles for christmas and half of them were non sequiturs, it was beautiful
04:54:44 <olsner> reminds me of that Voyager episode about Tuvok not getting a pun
04:55:36 <olsner> or, half "lateral thinking" puzzle, half bad pun
04:55:44 <kmc> in this episode of Veep they say that "kassi" is the Finnish word for "scrotum"; is that correct?
04:56:03 <kmc> (spoiler alert)
04:56:05 <Sgeo_> copumpkin, a specific distance from the south pole
04:56:30 <olsner> sounds like swedish word for shopping bag, maybe that word is actually imported from finnish
04:56:32 <Sgeo_> Or actually, I think there are a lot of possible distances
04:57:04 <kmc> google translates it just as "bag" but it doesn't always have colloquial meanings
04:57:05 <Bike> honestly the concept of "west" is socially constructed
04:57:11 <Sgeo_> Too late, I cheated over a decade ago
04:57:25 <kmc> who's cheating on what
04:57:28 <kmc> slash whom
04:57:39 <Bike> sgeo's cheating on compumpkin's polar bear
04:58:16 <Sgeo_> I cheated on copumpkin's riddle by sending myself a telepathic message back in time to read a book that contains the solution.
04:58:27 <kmc> that's a good trick
04:58:53 <copumpkin> I think youm should be the accusative of you
05:00:10 <kmc> that's the hebrew plural of copumpkin
05:00:37 <kmc> shachaf: you should transliterate 'copumpkin' into hebrew, hth
05:01:16 <olsner> ah, here are a bunch of links about 2d treadmills: https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=388
05:01:20 <Bike> what was the accusative of you?
05:02:20 <olsner> http://www.virtuix.com/ seems to be a bowl covered in small rollers, plus a rail and waist collar that keeps you in place
05:02:33 <kmc> i think maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrjrgBV8K0 is on a 2d treadmill
05:02:44 <kmc> but maybe it's just a wide 1d treadmill
05:02:53 <kmc> anyway it's a wonderfully creepy video
05:03:48 <Sgeo_> A bit concerned about that mpk ... I really don't know Hebrew well enough
05:04:03 <Bike> that video is vastly improved by the bee gees
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05:04:35 <olsner> hmm, youtube is now showing me ads about how finland's armed forces are better than sweden's
05:04:48 <Bike> oh the bee gees one is an older petman. my mistake
05:04:55 <olsner> (psyops to prepare for the invasion?)
05:05:53 <Bike> stayin' alive, ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' aliiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiive
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05:16:51 <pikhq> Hoping melatonin makes that possible for me.
05:19:04 <kmc> good luck!
05:19:26 * kmc took melatonin and 5-HTP occasionally, never really felt a definitive effect
05:19:36 <kmc> ymmv obviously :)
05:19:43 * pikhq has cause to believe it'll help rather a lot
05:19:54 <pikhq> Autism implies low melatonin, as does Prozac.
05:21:33 <kmc> lately I've been having trouble sleeping, but for a more specific reason
05:21:38 <kmc> which is that i'm angry / worried about specific things
05:22:07 <kmc> it's balanced out somewhat by the fact that I'm an unemployed bum again and don't need to get up at any particular time
05:22:08 <pikhq> I'm sleeping less than once a day, so.
05:22:15 <kmc> so I can afford to spend 12 hours getting 8 solid hours of sleep
05:22:30 * shachaf is pretty awful at sleep hth
05:23:22 <coppro> man, sigstop is the best
05:24:08 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure 5-HTP is pretty strongly counterindicated though.
05:24:46 <pikhq> Yup, serotonergic.
05:24:53 <pikhq> Fucking terrible idea.
05:24:57 <kmc> yeah, it's a serotonin precursor :)
05:25:02 <kmc> serotonin = 5-HT
05:25:11 <kmc> that's counterindicated because of the prozac?
05:26:03 <pikhq> Like all SSRIs, mixing serotonergic substances produces serotonin syndrome.
05:26:32 <pikhq> I'd prefer to avoid ER trips.
05:27:15 <kmc> shachaf: maybe so
05:27:26 <Bike> ugh, every time i hear another fact about ssris i dislike taking them more
05:27:42 <pikhq> Bike: Aside from the insomnia, it's been fucking great.
05:28:02 <Bike> i'm apparently smilier but it's not really apparent to me
05:28:18 <pikhq> I've only been noticing recently.
05:28:36 <pikhq> But holy shit, I sound like I give a shit. :P
05:29:00 <pikhq> Well, there is one thing I did notice rather more quickly.
05:29:04 <pikhq> Anhedonia kinda stopped.
05:29:37 <shachaf> kmc: maybe you can move to sf and become my drugs dealer
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05:29:45 <Bike> not for me, i guess
05:29:47 <Bike> imo fuck depression
05:29:58 <pikhq> Anhedonia is, like, the worst thing.
05:30:42 <kmc> sometimes i wonder if i should be on antidepressants
05:31:57 <Bike> only one way to find out! talking to a medical professional
05:32:13 <kmc> well i've been diagnosed with depression in the past
05:32:18 <kmc> and i could have had antidepressants if i wanted them
05:32:49 <pikhq> Yeah, I was kinda... severe.
05:33:45 <kmc> instead I took psychedelics like once a month
05:33:57 <kmc> which I think helped things
05:34:03 <kmc> but it's impossible to say for sure
05:34:19 <olsner> well, antidepressants are also drugs
05:34:23 <olsner> should be the same thing!
05:34:49 <Bike> i'd be way more interested in my ssris if they were psychedelic.
05:35:22 <Bike> i also consider it pretyt likely that actually taking psychedelics sould get me some pretty bad trips, though. life is hard for meeeee
05:36:08 <pikhq> Anhedonia is maybe the worst thing.
05:36:44 <pikhq> Spending pretty much of your day just idly wasting all your time because that's all you have the capacity for? Ugh.
05:37:07 <Bike> i used to feel pretty strongly about how bad not feeling strongly about things was, but
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06:25:51 <kmc> Hello. I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer is: No.
06:26:14 <Bike> straightforward.
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06:37:38 <zzo38> kmc: Did Leonard Nimoy tell you that, or someone else, or you?
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06:39:14 <kmc> Leonard Nimoy told me
06:41:51 <kmc> via television
06:42:06 <zzo38> Many people have seen Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, but only know them as lines on a map and don't know their significance or why they have the names they do.
06:42:26 <kmc> Tropic of Calculus
06:42:40 <Bike> it's true. i don't really care. probably some astrology thing
06:42:52 <zzo38> kmc: Are you going to make up something called "Tropic of Calculus"?
06:44:16 <zzo38> Their significance is due to the Earth rotating on the different axis than it orbits the Sun.
06:44:31 <shachaf> I thought _Tropic of Cancer_ was a book.
06:44:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe there is a book of the same name, too.
06:44:46 <shachaf> But it turns out that it's "not a book. It is a cesspool, an open sewer, a pit of putrefaction, a slimy gathering of all that is rotten in the debris of human depravity."[20]
06:45:19 <Bike> common mistake
06:45:21 <zzo38> When I told someone that they are named after the astrological signs, they asked me why those specific signs. I know why; are you able to easily figure it out?
06:45:45 <zzo38> "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
06:46:22 <Bike> the tropic of cancer is named after the great crab migration that occurs along that line every year. the tropic of capricon is named after Jesüs Capricorn, a Nicean cartographer
06:46:50 <zzo38> Bike: Yes; some people say they are named after the constellations, but this is only indirectly, because the signs are named after the constellations.
06:47:03 <zzo38> Bike: No, but nice to make a joke!
06:47:32 <Bike> nice to make a joke, for sure
06:47:43 <shachaf> "The novel was subsequently banned in the United States until a 1961 Justice Department ruling declared that its contents were not obscene.[1]"
06:48:06 <kmc> naming my next band Jesüs Capricorn
06:48:09 <zzo38> They shouldn't ban those books anymore, hopefully.
06:48:09 <shachaf> If they had declared its contents obscene, would it not be unbanned?
06:48:34 <zzo38> kmc: You are going to make a next band?
06:49:02 <kmc> my next band will be nothing like my ex-band
06:49:21 <Bike> shachaf: US censorship law os silly. But stuff can be or used to be banned for obscenity, yeah.
06:49:23 <zzo38> kmc: How is your ex-band?
06:49:52 <shachaf> imo give me smut and nothing but
06:50:17 <Bike> Obscenity restrictions have kind of died out by now though.
06:50:22 <mnoqy> nice rhyme shachaf
06:50:36 <mnoqy> do you have a band too
06:51:07 <shachaf> about obscenity trials?????
06:51:18 <mnoqy> mmaybe they have a band
06:51:44 <zzo38> Hopefully you know of spherical geometry, and how you might have different axis designated on a plain sphere?
06:51:46 <shachaf> but now they're going to take it all away from us unless we take a stand and hand in hand we fight for freedom of the press
06:52:15 <Bike> do i owe you ticket money
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06:52:57 <zzo38> shachaf: OK, yes, let's freedom of the press. There is a cover of 2600 with Mickey Mouse and stuff and saying the MPAA is making it restricted unless you stand up for your rights, etc
06:53:04 <shachaf> Bike: four million ticket moneys please
06:53:43 <zzo38> In order to explain why the tropics are named after those two specific astrological signs, it would help to know about spherical geometry. Are you good enough at it?
06:54:24 <Bike> calculus three was like, two years ago man, i ain't remember that far back
06:54:46 <kmc> It would be wise to remember that the same people who would stop you from listening to Boards of Canada may be back next year to complain about a book, or even a TV program. If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. Defend your constitutionally protected rights - no one else will do it for you. Thank you.
06:55:18 <Bike> i like how boc's music videos are from shitty 50s films, goes well w/that
06:55:37 <kmc> have you seen the video for Dayvan Cowboy?
06:55:43 <kmc> that one is great
06:55:46 <zzo38> Well, maybe you can know that, on a plain (not rotating) sphere (here, the celestial sphere), you can designate the "equator" to be whatever great circle you want. In this case, there are two great circles, being the ecliptic and the actual equator.
06:55:46 <kmc> i haven't seen many others
06:55:56 <Bike> yeah, i tried to find the original footage from project excelsior, too, but no dice
06:56:07 <Bike> i like the idea of just watching a fall for so long
06:57:27 <zzo38> These two great circles must intersect. One of the intersection points will be called 0.
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06:59:05 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e59guruVL4o
06:59:27 <zzo38> Using the equator, draw two parallel circles which have a constant latitude (called "declination" in astronomy), at the maxima/minima of the ecliptic. Now you have two more intersection points. At these two intersection points, the longitude calculated along the ecliptic will be 90 and 270.
07:00:46 <zzo38> Each astrological sign is 30 degrees, starting at Aries. (These are designated using "0 Aries" for 0 degrees past the start of Aries, "3 Taurus" for 3 degrees past the start of Taurus (which would be = 33 degrees), etc.) You would probably know the correct order of the signs, as you see in the newspaper.
07:01:24 <zzo38> Therefore, the ecliptic longitude of 90 degrees = 0 Cancer, and 270 degrees = 0 Capricorn.
07:01:42 <zzo38> That is why the tropics have the names they do. Is this OK?
07:04:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you care so much about astrology?
07:04:55 <shachaf> I don't know many people who do, I think.
07:06:11 <zzo38> Many people are confuse and won't understand. That is why.
07:08:03 <zzo38> It is better to learn, rather than to be superstitious and not understanding anything about history and geometry and so on.
07:09:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you hear that CodensityAsk's new name is Free? hth
07:10:24 <zzo38> They called Free what is based on a class rather than a (* -> *) type, and there is already the other thing called Free, too.
07:12:37 <zzo38> They probably know the similar things, but not exactly the same (a class rather than a (* -> *) type), and different name too. In mathematics, such things are common.
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07:13:28 <shachaf> It is far more related to Free than to Codensity.
07:13:44 <zzo38> If you have (CodensityAsk w) if w is a comonad, then you will make a MonadPlus.
07:14:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it probably is, I just didn't know what name to put, and "Free" is already use for something else.
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07:15:18 <zzo38> I think it should make (Either x) to be a MonadPlus if x is a monoid, and if you make (CodensityAsk ((->) x)) then that is what it will make.
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07:20:44 <zzo38> I do know one relate to the other Free though, that if it can be written like (f x -> x) then the (CodensityAsk w) can be made like (Free f).
07:22:19 <zzo38> However, not everything is like that.
07:22:50 <zzo38> For example, (CodensityAsk Predicate) makes something too.
07:25:40 <zzo38> (It makes a monad which has been made a different way before, in this case)
07:29:13 <zzo38> CodensityAsk Predicate makes http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/infinite-search/0.12/doc/html/Data-Searchable.html monad.
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07:57:42 <shachaf> is a basic functional programming technique.
07:57:42 <shachaf> And in order to become a true JavaScript ninja,
07:57:42 <shachaf> what you really need to master is the art of
08:01:45 <zzo38> Sure, you can make currying even in JavaScript.
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08:02:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you a true ninja?
08:05:57 <kmc> is that free verse
08:07:36 <mroman_> that means he could either be *just* a Ninja or nothing at all.
08:08:03 <kmc> 17 Ways Agile Startups Use The Maybe Monad To Scratch An Itch
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08:10:49 <augur> crazy kid on youtube eats the worlds hottest fuckin peppers
08:11:05 <augur> barely stops reviewing them for flavor
08:11:47 <augur> heres some dope eating this bhut jolokia pepper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZstObB4RVsQ
08:11:56 <augur> hottest pepper until 2011
08:12:25 <augur> here's this kid eat the same thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvJdXpyPma8&list=UUxWRubpdOSGxoNldIvPqsxw&index=3
08:14:24 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/channel/HCl5DV_XpguiI
08:14:30 <augur> look at all these people just flip the fuck out
08:14:33 <augur> and this kid is just like
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08:14:54 <augur> ... yeah. mm. hm. thats a spicy pepper!
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08:32:06 <fizzie> Misreading of the day: "crazy kid on youtube eats the worlds hottest fuckin papers".
08:35:33 <augur> yeah eat those papers
08:35:38 <augur> yeah eat em real good
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08:36:00 <augur> fizzie: kids a pro, man
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09:44:03 <Jafet> What happened to carrots and cucumbers
09:47:57 <shachaf> I thought it was carrots and peas.
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09:57:38 <Jafet> She put the pea knish in her oven.
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10:56:32 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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16:17:54 <elliott> uh my battery is defying physics
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16:21:31 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 54%, 01:37:21 remaining
16:21:36 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 50%, 02:31:54 remaining
16:22:37 <zzo38> Doesn't seems defying physics to me; it is 54% and then it says 50%. It is defying statistics, or something like that, I think.
16:23:06 <Bike> elliott's referring to the estimated time remaining
16:23:36 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but that part is estimated.
16:26:40 <FreeFull> It's not actually talking about time
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16:49:43 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 40%, 01:15:53 remaining
16:49:45 <elliott> Battery 0: Discharging, 39%, 01:43:15 remaining
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16:53:18 <myname> isn't it pretty normal?
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17:00:02 <zzo38> elliott: In what way?
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17:34:04 <mroman_> 2D Languages make it really hard to calculate runtime :(
17:42:26 <mroman_> and Beam is a really bad language
17:49:43 <mroman_> but otherwise it would be too easy
17:51:20 <mroman_> The only easy way to program is using the brainfuck2beam script :)
17:51:43 <mroman_> otherwise it starts getting freaky ugly pretty soon.
17:53:21 <mroman_> You can't do comparision without sacrificing the memory pointer
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20:20:56 <Bike> great, i learned something from sigbovik: if you do [x for x in 1,2,3] then xi s later bound
20:23:44 <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes?
20:24:28 <Lumpio-> You mean like x has a value after that?
20:24:43 <Lumpio-> Doesn't in Python 3 though.
20:24:57 <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:12 <Bike> do people use python 3? i seriously don't know
20:25:16 <elliott> as opposed to biologist jokes
20:25:27 <shachaf> hey Bike tell us a biologist jokes
20:25:30 <Bike> biologists don't have jokes, we just spray each other with owl shit
20:25:31 <oerjan> `addquote <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:37 <HackEgo> 1038) <oerjan> i vaguely thought sigbovik was all jokes? <Bike> oerjan: jokes written by CS people, so none of it's funny, just sad
20:25:58 <elliott> This article lists the fictitious people, i.e., nonexistent people, which, unlike fictional people, are those somebody has claimed to actually exist.
20:26:40 <fizzie> Bike: But if you do list(x for x in (1,2,3)), x isn't.
20:26:47 <oerjan> does it include people who started out fictional but were picked up by conspiracy theorists
20:26:55 <Bike> fizzie: fantastic.
20:27:18 <fizzie> (Generator expressions apparently have different rules than list comprehensions, or some such thing.)
20:27:20 <kmc> i wrote a little python 3
20:27:27 <kmc> i think mostly no, people don't use it yet
20:27:37 <kmc> Django added support for Python 3 in their latest version, released a few months ago
20:27:41 <kmc> "experimental support"
20:27:55 <fizzie> Python 3: it's like Perl 6 for the Pythoneers?
20:28:03 <kmc> not quite that bad
20:28:13 <Lumpio-> Python 3 has actual strings
20:28:19 <Lumpio-> That alone is a reason to use it.
20:28:36 <kmc> Lumpio-: I don't think I'd put it that way -- the major change is just that they renamed str,unicode to bytes,str
20:28:41 <kmc> which is definitely a better name
20:28:58 <kmc> but the new str type is a lot like the old unicode type
20:28:58 <Lumpio-> Yes, and went through the entire standard library to make sure everything reacts to unicode in a sane way
20:29:11 <Lumpio-> The mere fact that the default string is unicode drives people towards supporting it properly.
20:29:21 <nooodl> well non-unicode strings are still strings
20:29:21 <kmc> for example if you open a file you now need to specify the 'b' mode if you want bytes instead of string
20:29:26 <Bike> this paper involves pattern matching with random scope. nice
20:29:31 <kmc> Lumpio-: I agree that it's an important change, I just think "has actual strings
20:29:35 <kmc> " is a misleading way to describe it
20:29:52 <Lumpio-> nooodl: Well, not text strings
20:30:00 <Lumpio-> I think the word "string" evokes the idea of text in most people.
20:30:03 <Lumpio-> Well, most programmers at least.
20:30:07 <Bike> https://python3wos.appspot.com/ well then
20:30:16 <kmc> people need to start thinking of Unicode as /the/ standard and not some weird side thing that those unreasonable foreigners want
20:30:34 * Bike glances at zzo38
20:30:45 <elliott> paul graham got flamed a bunch for not having utf-8 support in arc :P
20:30:50 <elliott> though of course people will flame for anything
20:30:59 <Bike> q: who cares about arc
20:31:02 <fizzie> "string" evokes the idea of "contiguous sequence of characters terminated by and including the first null character" in C programmers.
20:31:04 <kmc> only english speaking people in silicon valley deserve to use hacker news
20:31:12 <kmc> fizzie: of bytes, you mean
20:31:16 <kmc> or 'char's
20:31:25 <fizzie> kmc: No, characters. That was a literal quote from the standard.
20:31:28 <Bike> also i think of unicode as default, i think. this is probably because i was exposed to way too much shift-jis before i even started programming
20:31:45 <Lumpio-> I'd like to do web stuff in python but python3 web stuff is still kind of not-there-yet
20:31:47 <nooodl> aren't "characters" just "values of the 'char' type", though
20:32:13 <Lumpio-> Yeah, that type name is not a good one so we should ignore that
20:32:15 <Lumpio-> As char is not a character.
20:32:17 <Bike> and like.... mojibake is......
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20:32:32 <Lumpio-> Why would you shift-jis D:
20:32:34 <fizzie> nooodl: For those C programmers, sure.
20:32:44 <Bike> actually funnily enough in my shitty setup the name of my blog displays wrong because it's in russian, which is nice because it's the russian term for mojibake
20:33:26 <Bike> Lumpio-: i think it's probably ok as long as it's actually indicated as such, so my computer doesn't try to display it as latin?
20:33:30 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I suppose due to whatever program you are working with, if it have to use Shift-JIS.
20:33:44 <zzo38> I myself use ASCII as default.
20:34:12 <zzo38> (The reason isn't due to racism, but due to simplicity.)
20:34:30 <Bike> toki pona is simpler than english. your move!!!
20:34:42 <Lumpio-> "but English is my native language, that's more simple you silly foreigners"
20:35:04 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I don't mean the *language*, I mean the *character encoding*.
20:35:20 <Bike> which is unsuitable for most languages.
20:35:45 <Lumpio-> Including Fine and Proper(tm) English
20:35:52 <Lumpio-> For one ASCII doesn't have curly quotes.
20:35:59 <zzo38> Yes, I know, they say it isn't even completely suitable for English, but that is OK.
20:36:07 <Lumpio-> (in b4 somebody mentions an ASCII variant that does)
20:36:16 <kmc> "people should just learn English if they want to use computers" *ignores that using computers is now a global necessity*
20:36:31 <Lumpio-> I use UTF-8 by default because it's the only sane encoding that does English, Finnish and Japanese.
20:36:39 <shachaf> kmc: learning English is a global necessity hth
20:36:44 <kmc> Lumpio-: you could stop after "encoding"
20:36:46 <zzo38> People should learn to type fast if you want to use computers.
20:36:56 <Lumpio-> Oh I don't mind software being in English. Might all be in English for all I care.
20:37:04 <Lumpio-> But I'd like my content in multiple languages
20:37:11 <nooodl> u'oo\u0300o'[::-1] # òoo
20:37:15 <nooodl> ^ this is still dumb imo
20:37:22 <kmc> i can't fault small projects for not having the resources to translate the interface into 100 different languages
20:37:33 <kmc> i can fault them if their code is so shitty that /users/ can't write content in their own languages
20:37:35 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I agree, but there are other ways to do it, too, depend what you are wanting to do, such as the software. Especially since even Unicode fails at some things.
20:37:40 <nooodl> why isn't o\u0300 considered to be one char
20:37:44 <nooodl> is this just a stupid thing python does
20:37:50 <Bike> it would be cool if they got like, the most used languages, at least.
20:38:05 <Bike> what is it now... english, french, spanish, arabic, mandarin, and... i think one more
20:38:07 <Lumpio-> Well that's a funny feature of Unicode.
20:38:12 <shachaf> Presumably Python counts codepoints, not characters.
20:38:14 <Lumpio-> I'm sure Python has normalization/denormalization functions
20:38:18 <Bike> oh yeah, probably hindi
20:38:23 <kmc> yeah module unicodedata
20:38:25 <Lumpio-> Most languages count codepoints.
20:38:39 <Bike> oh oops, it's russian, not french.
20:38:39 <zzo38> TeX has a way to allow entering curly quotation marks, and so on, even Greek alphabets, and you can write macros in TeX to allow it to read other encodings (including UTF-8), so you can make it read whatever you want even though it is ASCII by default.
20:38:49 <Bike> according to 2010 ethnologue, anyway.
20:38:49 <elliott> unicode strings shouldn't have reverse or length functions
20:38:50 <kmc> you can't say that ASCII is good enough for English when it doesn't even contain the currency symbol of England!
20:39:07 <zzo38> If writing a program to deal with things that use Shift-JIS, then the program will support Shift-JIS too in those cases.
20:39:22 <Bike> then bengali, portuguese, malay, japanese, and THEN french
20:39:43 <Bike> ...huh, there are more lusophones than francophones, that's not what i expected actually.
20:39:43 <zzo38> If a program that is mainly ASCII but is writing GD3 tags in VGM files, which are UTF-16 encoded, then this program can read UTF-8 input in those cases in order to convert to UTF-16, even if the rest of the program is ASCII.
20:39:53 <nooodl> wow i thought french was *huge*
20:40:11 <Bike> well eleventh place still means over a hundred million people.
20:40:19 <Bike> er, 200 million.
20:40:26 <zzo38> Bike: All that means is that the population is too much.
20:42:05 <Bike> Is this some Malthusian thing you're getting into
20:42:24 <Bike> also there's not another Chinese until the 16th position, dang
20:42:36 <zzo38> I don't know what "some Malthusian thing" is.
20:43:02 <nooodl> sometimes zzo38 reminds me of an infocom text adventure parser
20:43:05 <Bike> Malthus. British guy, usually comes up when people talk about "overpopulation"
20:44:11 <zzo38> Well, I am not British guy, but I am Canadian.
20:44:28 <Bike> indeed. you are not british guy.
20:46:16 <kmc> The Adventures of British Guy
20:47:31 <kmc> don't you have enough citizenships
20:48:22 <fizzie> ASCII's also missing þ ƿ ð ȝ ſ æ œ so how's you supposed to be writing proper English instead of some modern nonsense with it huh?
20:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: what does "enough citizenships" mean
20:48:53 <zzo38> fizzie: It is true, you can't, but it is still good enough for a lot of things, anyways.
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20:49:34 <zzo38> You can write Toki Pona with ASCII too, but that doesn't make it English.
20:49:45 <kmc> also a lot of people in English-speaking countries have non-ASCII names
20:49:47 <zzo38> It also doesn't make it Chinese.
20:49:54 <kmc> like Tobias Fünke
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20:52:53 <oerjan> kmc: fünky names don't count hth
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20:54:53 <zzo38> Don't you know that ASCII already does some other things such as backspacing over a character to overtype it to make underlined or whatever, and to shift out to another character set, and so on?
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20:55:08 <kmc> how many systems implement that zzo38
20:55:20 <Bike_> it's going to be so fucking cool when i get an internet connection that isn't made of spit
20:55:25 <kmc> also if you include codes to shift to a different character set, then you're not sending just ASCII anymore
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20:55:34 <kmc> and the result is probably much much worse than UTF-8
20:55:44 <kmc> which is also a superset of ASCII but without locking shifts
20:55:54 <kmc> i don't know why i'm arguing with zzo38 about this though
20:56:00 <kmc> maybe next I'll argue about why HTTP is superior to Gopher
20:56:02 * Bike watches a billion errors pop up in his uninterruptible download
20:56:50 <zzo38> kmc: Linux implements the shift-out and shift-in codes to make degree sign and a few other things.
20:57:17 <kmc> yeah ISO 2022 codes for the DEC ACS are still pretty widely implemented, unfortunately
20:57:33 <kmc> but who still has backspace for combining characters
20:57:45 <zzo38> Well, I think they are good, and I still use them when applicable.
20:58:05 <kmc> ISO 2022 is pretty complicated
20:58:09 <kmc> and it's not stateless like UTF-8
20:58:54 <zzo38> Well, the subset used by Linux works a bit better. And it isn't true that UTF-8 is stateless, due to Arabic text shaping and RTL and so on.
20:59:04 <kmc> yeah, true
20:59:17 <kmc> UTF-8 as an encoding for codepoints in the Universal Character Set is stateless
20:59:38 <kmc> but if you move from UCS to Unicode then you now have a bunch of character properties and instructions on how to display the characters
20:59:48 <kmc> i don't think ISO 2022 has a better story for bidi though...
21:00:10 <kmc> if you shift into an Arabic codepage you will still need to know how to join up characters
21:00:31 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I use the very simple subset, not the compilcated one, anyways.
21:01:06 <zzo38> Actually, as an encoding of numbers UTF-8 still depends on multiple bytes and keeping a state between them, but it is easy to rewind, and UTF-8 is a pretty good way to do this in a way which is compatible with principle of extended ASCII.
21:01:30 <zzo38> I am just saying that the actual character set it is used with (Unicode) is not very good; like you wait, you now have a bunch of character properties and instructions on how to display the characters, and that kind of stuff.
21:03:26 <zzo38> However, some programs might read UTF-8 and not care about actual Unicode characters; for example, VGMCK reads UTF-8 only as numbers and then converts them into UTF-16, and doesn't actually care what characters anything represents, except for surrogates, and ASCII codes which aren't overlong.
21:03:47 <kmc> a lot of programs are like that really
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21:04:00 <zzo38> Yes, there may be.
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21:05:09 <zzo38> SQLite does this too, although using a bit different algorithm (which still works for valid UTF-8); in most cases you can still turn it off by casting to blob but there are some functions where this doesn't work and I think this can be considered a bug.
21:05:25 <shachaf> zzo38 has such a great way of thinking about things
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21:16:11 <zzo38> Overlong encodings happens to be the only way in VGMCK to write GD3 tags containing trailing ASCII spaces (although usually there is no need to do that anyways).
21:21:04 <zzo38> Does any SQL allow you to make anonymous tables, triggers, views, etc, and to make overrides on views which can be stacked together?
21:29:00 <kmc> i don't know what you mean by 'anonymous tables' but maybe nested select is like that?
21:30:38 <zzo38> No, I mean a table that actually stores data in the database and can be referenced by a value in a table, but you can create them without having to specify a name and conflict with existing tables. Similar idea with triggers, views, overrides, etc.
21:31:22 <zzo38> SQL doesn't normally have overrides on views, though, I think (I mean overriding to read the view; overriding to write them is already implemented by triggers)
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21:48:41 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/wbFVRHb.png
21:51:52 <elliott> wow i was going to say yes too
21:51:55 <kmc> http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/ http://sigbovik.org/2013/
21:52:09 <elliott> yo does anyone know about: xmonad, dzen2, getting it to highlight urgent workspaces properly
21:52:50 <kmc> nobody knows
21:54:29 <Cryovat> I just had a wonderful idea for a language :D
21:54:36 <Cryovat> It should essentially be C#
21:54:48 <Cryovat> But the compiler will detect redundancy and pointless casts
21:55:02 <Cryovat> If there is too much of that, it should delete itself and the IDE
21:55:23 <Bike> what's redundancy
21:55:57 <Cryovat> if (foo == true) { bar = true; }
21:56:20 <Bike> why's that redundant
21:59:11 <zzo38> bar|=foo; Is it OK?
22:08:34 <tromp> the compiler should simply suggest: did you mean "if ((foo == true) == true) " ?
22:09:59 <kmc> beginners often do if (x) { return true; } else { return false; }
22:10:31 <zzo38> kmc: I have seen that; I have even seen: if (x) { return true; } else { return true; }
22:10:41 <elliott> x == true is pretty common too
22:10:54 <kmc> well in some languages that's not equivalent to 'x'
22:11:11 <elliott> nobody cares about that though
22:11:16 <zzo38> It also depend where it is used, such as use in a boolean, etc
22:11:17 <elliott> also when it isn't equivalent to x it's the wrong thing to right
22:11:23 <elliott> you should say x == 1 instead
22:11:25 <elliott> since clearly x isn't a boolean
22:11:26 <Bike> the wrong thing to right.
22:11:45 <Bike> you can have multiple things treated as true, including but not limited to booleans
22:11:47 <elliott> i see x == True a lot in haskell even
22:12:07 <Bike> in which case you might want to check that x is a true boolean, as distinct from checking whether x is true
22:12:20 <Bike> you know this so i said it.
22:12:27 <elliott> well i don't believe in variables having several possible types
22:12:30 <kmc> you said what everyone was thinking
22:12:34 <elliott> it's not part of my religion
22:12:51 <Bike> what about tagged unions!! or something i don't care.
22:12:59 <elliott> i actually didn't even think of that possible use before you mentioned it
22:13:11 <elliott> so i guess i have indoctrinated myself well
22:13:25 <elliott> if it's a tagged union you wouldn't say (x == true) :p
22:13:33 <zzo38> Even in Haskell? Yes, I have seen it a bit in a Haskell code too, which is even worse than making it in a C code.
22:13:35 <Bike> wouldn't you elliott. WOULDN'T YOU
22:13:37 <elliott> ALSO booleans are still the devil
22:13:51 <Bike> do you use trivalent logicks
22:13:57 <Koen_> all the booleans? they are legion
22:14:02 <elliott> see e.g. http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/boolean-blindness/
22:14:35 <Bike> oh right, my browser can't render text right now
22:14:38 <Bike> god i suck at computers
22:14:51 <elliott> would you like me to paste the whole thing into #esoteric
22:15:08 <zzo38> No, why don't you download it using a command-line?
22:15:37 <zzo38> Can't download it using a command-line?
22:15:39 <Bike> whatever i think i get the idea
22:15:48 <Bike> if you have x == 4 you want that to be a proof that x equals 4 or something
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22:16:01 <Bike> ok well: fuck.
22:16:06 <elliott> it's more like often you don't want to separate the test and resulting computation in the first place
22:16:30 <elliott> like "case m of Nothing -> ...; Just x -> ...x..." is better than "if isNothing m then ... else ...(fromJust m)..."
22:16:58 <zzo38> If it is a test in a compiler and using optimization, then it can be a proof that x equals 4, possibly.
22:17:00 <elliott> QUALITY PAPER™ /The view from the left/™ shows this even applies to things like numeric comparisons and subtraction in a dependently-typed setting
22:17:10 <zzo38> elliott: Why don't you just use the "maybe" function which is for that purpose?
22:17:41 <elliott> case...of has nicer syntax when you would have a lambda for the just case
22:18:24 <Bike> ok well that's not really disagreeable, and thus boring, so there
22:18:29 <Bike> disagreeenting
22:18:49 <elliott> you'd be surprised how often people disagree with it
22:19:12 <elliott> ALSO why do your precious lisps have this stuff all over the place then?????????
22:19:50 <Bike> no i wouldn't be, remember that perl guy i mentioned? he said he didn't get maybe because you should just check if the thing is in a table before extracting it (re a hopefully obvious example)
22:20:09 <Bike> ALSO because are you six, or rather why are you humorously acting six
22:20:29 <kmc> pattern matching?!??!??? useless academic nonsense imo
22:20:50 <Bike> man my browser is still fucked. this sucks. stupid ubuntu
22:21:03 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure you'll find that lisp sux
22:21:11 <elliott> Bike: also has that guy even heard of a race condition lol
22:21:27 <elliott> (race conditions: ALSO THE FAULT OF BOOLEANS)
22:21:42 <Bike> that was the point at which i decided to stop caring even more than i'd already stopped
22:21:54 <Bike> double stopped. stoppppped.
22:22:40 <nooodl> whoa i'm kinda enlightened by booleans being bad here
22:23:03 <Bike> i <3 absolutist principles
22:23:26 <nooodl> imo remove Bool from haskell :-)
22:24:11 <elliott> i also hate strings, even unicode strings ~getting controversial in here~
22:24:16 <Bike> this one weird old trick elliotts don't want you to know
22:24:24 <Bike> i like strings. they're good for pumping lemmas. alt: what
22:24:44 <elliott> still doing good with the six year old thing??
22:25:00 <Bike> still doing good
22:25:53 <Bike> do you want streams or something instead
22:25:55 <nooodl> When dealing with “computers”, at least their physical manifestations and not some abstract mathematical idea, there is exactly one type, a boolean bit, and exactly one operation: NAND (Not AND). For those unfamiliar with this principle, I suggest the wikipedia article on NAND logic.
22:25:58 <Koen_> elliott: so I read the article you pointed to and I don't get it
22:26:10 <Bike> nooodl: lol beautiful
22:26:22 <elliott> Bike: well i think it's largely an artefact of history that "sequence of codepoints" is a thing people care about
22:26:27 <Bike> take that, MATHEMATICIANS with your fancy "numbers"
22:26:35 <elliott> rather than like "sequence of characters with X, Y and Z formatting"
22:26:42 <Bike> oh uh i'm used to the latter
22:26:44 <elliott> like .txt is a pretty weird file format, really
22:26:49 <Bike> it is what i think of when i think "string"
22:27:01 <elliott> you think of something with formatting when you think of "string"??
22:27:15 <Koen_> I thought .txt had no formatting at all
22:27:16 <Bike> well... okay not formatting. but characters, not codepoints.
22:27:38 <elliott> i mean it's kind of a deeply ingrained thing
22:27:40 <Koen_> like if I open TextEdit and create a new file and write "hello" and save it as hello.txt and then cat hello.txt I'd get "hello"
22:27:54 <elliott> given that strings of this kind are ubiquitous at every level of unix and networking protocols
22:27:54 <kmc> nooodl: where's that comment from
22:28:02 <Bike> though technically lisp characters (whoa man!!) can (don't nowadays) have formatting and fot info in them.
22:28:04 <Koen_> kmc: from elliott's article on booleans
22:28:10 <elliott> Koen_: yes that is because terminals are biased to strings
22:28:14 <elliott> i didn't write that article :P
22:28:26 <Bike> unfortunately lisp characters turned out to be mildly terrible, so.
22:28:30 <Koen_> kmc: from the artile elliott pointed to a few moments ago
22:28:44 <kmc> type theory is a lie because computers are made of bits
22:28:55 <kmc> i love how many ignorant statements from programmers boil down to "Yeah! Fuck abstraction!"
22:29:09 <kmc> like all the complaining about how software isn't written in assembly anymore
22:29:12 <kmc> and it's just too easy to make stuff
22:29:17 <Bike> i'll show you my ab straction *flexes*
22:29:49 <Koen_> well yeah computers are dumb really I mean electricity going "on" and "off"? I have that in a simple lightbulb I don't need a freaking computer
22:30:23 <elliott> Koen_: if you were hoping i could shed light on the meaning of the article then i will need more detail as to what you did not understand about it btw
22:30:56 <zzo38> Koen_: Well, in a computer it goes automatically and faster.
22:31:06 <Bike> keep this in mind, koen.
22:31:24 <Koen_> elliott: I don't know it just felt empty you know?
22:31:32 <elliott> even dijkstra made the error of conflating booleans and propositions btw
22:31:45 <Bike> this article really left my soul wanting more.
22:31:50 <zzo38> kmc: It depend much of what computer; if writing a program only for a specific computer then assembly language is OK (and this is still done), but often you will make a portable program in C, or whatever, or use other programming languages for other purposes.
22:32:15 <kmc> thanks for clearing that up
22:32:33 <Koen_> zzo38: yeah well i'll practice hitting the switch back and forth you'd be amazed what I can do with my fingers
22:33:03 <Bike> hey you know what's a cool electromechanical system? fingers *winks seductively at elliott*
22:33:22 <kmc> never seen em fing
22:33:35 <nooodl> i wanna learn z80 assembly so i can program cool stuff on my ti calculator
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22:34:13 <zzo38> nooodl: Yes, that would make the program faster than the built-in programming language, and doing some additional things such as grayscale instead of only black and white
22:34:34 <Bike> it's cool how thanks to twitter i can see the same person say the same thing in two different places, rapidly
22:34:55 <zzo38> It isn't only Twitter that does that.
22:34:55 <elliott> Bike: are you hitting on me
22:34:58 <Bike> "hm that was a cool thing, i should put it on my twitter" "hm that was a cool thing, i should discuss it on irc"
22:35:13 <Bike> elliott: i am hitting on your histamine complex
22:35:16 <zzo38> It also isn't only IRC that does that.
22:35:30 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:35:50 <zzo38> You can do that on any computer.
22:36:30 <Koen_> #I_do_it_in_real_life_and_I'm_not_ashamed
22:36:56 <Bike> koen sits at his computer, pronouncing apostrophes.
22:37:19 <Koen_> it's a breathtaking activity
22:38:51 <nooodl> the "true hashtag way" to do things is drop all spaces to make sure nobody can read your bullshit
22:39:09 <nooodl> (instead of substituting underscores)
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22:45:00 <nooodl^> man. asm is actually really easy
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22:46:46 <zzo38> I have never written program for TI calculators in ASM, but I have written the Famicom Hangman game in 6502 assembly language.
22:46:58 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:47:59 <nooodl^> well also make sure it isn't x86? I hear that's bad
22:48:23 <zzo38> Modern x86 is really complicated and stupid.
22:48:31 <Bike> much simpler to have conditionals on every instruction or w/e pick an architecture
22:48:36 <zzo38> Older x86 is a bit OK.
22:48:56 <nooodl^> doesn't it have 7 character long mnemonics or something
22:49:22 <Bike> yes. that had better not be your idea of "bad" though.
22:50:37 <zzo38> The mnemonics aren't a machine code.
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22:52:24 <nooodl^> well if they'd be all like 'jump_eq' that would be nice, but I'm remembering stuff like 'cdhlrxz_'
22:52:57 <nooodl^> I know those are both pretty awful examples
22:54:24 <kmc> x86 is super complicated, but if you are writing assembly by hand, you can use a pretty simple subset
22:54:57 <kmc> it's more complicated if you need to do gnarly systems programming, high performance SIMD code, or read the output of a compiler
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22:55:35 <zzo38> If you writing it by hand, you can also use things that some compilers won't do such as BCD. In 64-bit mode they removed BCD but added a bunch of junk.
22:58:02 <nooodl^> I wonder if there are any assembly dialects where the "human" code looks like a modern programming language. like you'd write "a = 5;" instead of "lda #5"
22:58:20 <pikhq> They're called "high level assemblers".
22:59:33 <kmc> maybe you've all seen, but http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/
22:59:35 <Bike> so does nooodl get to learn about that thing i learned about the other day
22:59:36 <kmc> is fantastic
22:59:40 <shachaf> kmc: If you're generating it with a compiler, you can also use a pretty simple subset!
22:59:51 <kmc> shachaf: yes, but not if you want best performance
23:00:19 <pikhq> The thing that makes x86 so complex is just that there's so much of it.
23:00:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Mainly, yes.
23:00:58 <nooodl^> not today, I'm going to bed right now, my arm is starting to hurt from holding my phone :(
23:01:04 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
23:01:39 <kmc> mostly yeah
23:01:42 <nooodl^> technically I've already gone to bed I just need to sleep in it hth
23:01:43 -!- tswett has joined.
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23:02:17 <kmc> being CISC, there are some ways in which x86 assembly is easier to write by hand
23:02:20 <kmc> than other architectures
23:02:49 <tswett> So I guess I may write a thesis about context-free languages.
23:02:52 <pikhq> What with that being the original design intent. :)
23:03:17 <tswett> The original design intent was that it be easy to write by hand? I guess we should abandon it.
23:04:13 <kmc> the heyday of RISC has come and gone, though
23:04:31 <kmc> having lots of simple, wide instructions isn't so good when memory bandwidth is everything
23:05:03 <pikhq> tswett: It turns out that it happens to have a side benefit in modern times.
23:05:10 <Bike> that's redundant, elliott
23:05:21 <pikhq> x86 tends to have smaller code, which leads to better performance.
23:05:32 <Bike> You hate everything.
23:05:37 <elliott> shachaf: @ runs on x86-64 because i'm too cheap to buy an fpga
23:05:37 <pikhq> That said, it's not a design intent or anything, so in principle it could be improved upon.
23:05:44 <kmc> and clock speeds have stopped increasing, but transistor density is still going up
23:05:46 <shachaf> Bike: There are lots of things elliott doesn't hate.
23:05:53 <shachaf> Bike: The _The View From the Left_.
23:06:01 <kmc> so you can more and more afford complicated decode logic and stuff
23:06:09 <elliott> it's /The view from the left/ you shachaf you
23:06:29 <shachaf> elliott: Why is it /s and not _s.
23:06:31 <pikhq> kmc: And some really *quite* specialized instructions too.
23:06:33 <shachaf> Or do you mean the capitalization?
23:06:35 <elliott> kmc: it's cute that clock speeds are going down
23:06:39 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of "worse-is-better" programming? Simplicity is the most important consideration, and simplicity of the implementation is a bit better than simplicity of the interface.
23:06:39 <elliott> shachaf: i meant the capitalisation as well as the //
23:06:48 <shachaf> I guess you're right on the capitalisation.
23:06:49 <pikhq> Like SSE-4.2's CRC opcode.
23:06:55 <shachaf> But it's surely _s? Why would it be /s?
23:06:57 <kmc> ARM is getting very popular but it's also getting less RISCy
23:07:01 <elliott> because //s look more italic
23:07:10 <pikhq> Shame it's using a somewhat less popular polynomial, but eh.
23:07:12 <shachaf> But italicization is the devil?
23:07:30 <zzo38> Modern ARM has a lot of stupid stuff, which is one reason why I wanted to make the computer out of ARM2.
23:07:48 <elliott> why can't i switch workspaces
23:07:55 <shachaf> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
23:07:58 <shachaf> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:08:00 <shachaf> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:08:15 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_13/screen1.png
23:08:30 <shachaf> zzo38: gopher: url plz thx
23:09:54 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/Iimages/13screen1.png
23:11:09 <shachaf> I don't understand that picture.
23:11:57 <zzo38> shachaf: It is a computer game (MegaZeux).
23:12:11 <kmc> chrome doesn't gopher :(
23:12:24 <kmc> neither does firefox
23:12:31 <kmc> more like firefucks
23:12:38 <zzo38> kmc: True, but you can use other standalone gopher clients. FireFox will with a extension "OverbiteFF".
23:12:53 <zzo38> (There is a extension for Chrome too but it won't work.)
23:13:31 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, or just use echo image/13screen1.png | nc zzo38computer.org 70 > screen1.png or something like that
23:13:49 <kmc> let us do that
23:13:59 <kmc> 3 File not found
23:14:12 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I misspelled it.
23:14:46 <zzo38> It is only complicated because you don't understand it.
23:15:03 <kmc> $.ajax("gopher://zzo38computer.org/Iimages/13screen1.png")
23:15:19 <Bike> web framework of the future
23:15:51 <shachaf> src/audio.c:48:26: fatal error: vorbis/codec.h: No such file or directory
23:16:03 <kmc> apt-get install *
23:16:20 <elliott> it would be nice to have a debian system with every package
23:16:23 <elliott> never have to worry about installing again
23:17:13 <zzo38> I think if you type the name of program that isn't installed, some computers will tell you what the proper package is to install that program.
23:18:03 <zzo38> shachaf: Select a world file; I will provide some.
23:18:12 <zzo38> Or make your own (push F8 to enter the editor).
23:18:32 <zzo38> I have my own fork of MegaZeux, which is somewhat outdated though, but you can install both if you want (I have done).
23:18:51 <zzo38> I have them only in HTTP at this time, but my server does support headerless HTTP which means you can download them without HTTP.
23:19:01 <zzo38> They are also compressed meaning you need to unzip them.
23:19:18 <zzo38> Here is one: http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip
23:19:28 <zzo38> Here is more: http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ascmzxto.zip
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23:19:48 <zzo38> shachaf: You don't need a fork, but I find the fork has a much improved editor.
23:20:03 <shachaf> Can I run those without the fork?
23:20:21 <zzo38> Yes, you can, but http://zzo38computer.org/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXII.ZIP requires the fork.
23:20:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Uh, I have a problem.
23:20:53 <shachaf> My right arrow key and End key are broken.
23:20:58 <zzo38> (Even the forked version normally uses compatibility mode, so even though I used the forked version to make these world files, they can be played in any version.)
23:21:04 <shachaf> Ever since I spilled some liquid on my laptop.
23:21:09 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, too bad, the game requires the right arrow key.
23:21:15 <shachaf> Can I still play potion_of_confusing without them?
23:21:25 <shachaf> potion_of_confusing sounds really good.
23:21:27 <zzo38> You do need the right arrow key, but not the end key.
23:21:31 <shachaf> Can you give me an hjkl-compatible version?
23:21:31 -!- Regis__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:21:36 <zzo38> Connect another keyboard.
23:21:58 <zzo38> shachaf: No, due to how MegaZeux is working. However, you can try to modify the source-code of MegaZeux to accept HJKL, but then some other games will fail.
23:22:54 <shachaf> Does potion_of_confusing use hjkl for anything else?
23:23:02 <Bike> Super Mega Zeux
23:24:44 <zzo38> No, this game doesn't.
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23:27:16 <zzo38> I think you can also use a joystick, though.
23:28:02 <Sgeo_> If you give an API a URL, and you can see content at that URL, would you expect the API to interact with the URL in some way?
23:28:05 <Sgeo_> Try to retrieve it?
23:28:20 -!- Regis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:28:27 <Sgeo_> I did, and based on that assumption, decided that some code was wrong
23:28:30 <Sgeo_> And argued as much
23:28:42 <Sgeo_> Then... worked out that my assumption was wrong.
23:28:58 <Sgeo_> In fact, the code looks at the URL, takes the last part, and sends it somewhere else entirely
23:28:59 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I patch megazeux? :-(
23:29:07 <shachaf> Do you happen to have a patch readymade?
23:29:08 <Sgeo_> Making code that looks like it shouldn't work, work completely
23:29:28 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I don't. Modify the source-codes yourself (I think in game.c or game2.c)
23:30:27 <elliott> shachaf: just use an on-screen keyboard?
23:30:28 <shachaf> zzo38: I tried changing keysym.h but it didn't work.
23:32:34 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: gone).
23:34:33 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh 118 is also good
23:35:39 <zzo38> shachaf: game.c near "if((get_key_status(keycode_internal, IKEY_UP)) &&"
23:36:52 <shachaf> zzo38: Right, but I swapped IKEY_UP with IKEY_k
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23:44:31 -!- kmc has set topic: We drank all the throwing wine | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:48:53 <shachaf> zzo38: How do I make it work?
23:49:01 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:49:03 <shachaf> I changed the values in event.c and it still doesn't seem to.
23:50:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I *really* want to play potion_of_confusing...
23:51:56 <shachaf> I should have been messing with event_sdl.c!!!!!!!!!!
23:55:33 <kmc> http://theworstroom.tumblr.com/post/50906877201/east-elmhurst-queens-450-00-kiralik-salon this seems like a p. good deal really
23:55:55 <Bike> wow i was just thinking that i should find that tumblr again now that my browser isn't shit
23:56:42 <elliott> how does anyone live in nyc
23:57:03 <Bike> wow i... new york...
23:57:04 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm in a big blank room.
23:57:04 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:57:43 <Bike> elliott: well i'm pretty sure like fourteen billion people do, unless maybe they're lying.
23:58:06 <elliott> my impression of new york is that there are toom any buildings and they are all gigantic and claustrophobic and everything is way too high up and also it's too bright and noisy all the time
23:58:22 <kmc> f you, urban density is great
23:58:32 <kmc> there's a reason people are willing to pay outrageous money to live there
23:59:18 <elliott> pretty sure it's actually the worst and terrible and unbearable
23:59:43 <Bike> elliott is an unevolved human who can not yet breathe asphalt
23:59:48 <elliott> n.b. i might be both a bit claustrophobic and scared of heights and also awful at dealing with noise so i'm not the most objective judge here
23:59:56 <elliott> and also i've never been to nyc ever
23:59:59 <elliott> but i'm pretty sure i'd hate it