←2013-05-21 2013-05-22 2013-05-23→ ↑2013 ↑all
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00:24:18 <Sgeo_> 750 hours of free computing time a month?
00:24:30 <Sgeo_> I guess I'm not particularly likely to exceed that for projects like that
00:25:49 <kmc> who has?
00:26:13 -!- TeruFSX has changed nick to the.
00:26:24 <kmc> 750 hours is a whole month
00:26:58 -!- the has left ("Leaving").
00:27:20 <Sgeo_> "AWS Free Tier includes 750 hours of Linux or Windows Micro Instances each month for one year. To stay within the Free Tier, use only EC2 Micro instances."
00:27:23 <Sgeo_> Oh, for one year
00:27:27 <kmc> yeah
00:27:40 <kmc> that's what I'm using for IRC
00:27:56 <Sgeo_> What are you going to do when the year is up?
00:28:00 <kmc> dunno
00:28:06 <elliott> he'll die
00:28:07 <elliott> rip
00:28:09 <kmc> price shopping from a few VPS providers
00:28:23 <kmc> pretty sure EC2 doesn't have the best price, although micro instances are cheap
00:28:29 <kmc> and i could buy it as a "reserved instance"
00:28:44 <kmc> you pay up-front to have a lower hourly rate for a year or 3 years
00:29:21 <kmc> i sort of think EC2 pricing is deliberately complex so that people will over-pay
00:30:42 <kmc> i wonder how much EC2 prices will drop once the startup bubble bursts
00:31:37 <Sgeo_> Is spot pricing relatively cheap?
00:31:53 <Sgeo_> For the file processing, it's not like I need continu... oh, hmm, I do, derp
00:32:03 <Sgeo_> I don't think timidity would like to be interrupted
00:32:05 <kmc> it can be a lot cheaper, yeah
00:32:14 <kmc> well each individual conversion task is pretty short right
00:32:29 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I ... guess
00:32:37 <kmc> so you just need to code it in such a way that a file isn't marked as converted until it's really done
00:32:58 <Sgeo_> It would be nice if the 'interruptions' were more like storing a memory snapshot and then restoring
00:34:46 <elliott> kmc: you can irc from my server so i can get all your passwords
00:34:48 <elliott> guaranteed
00:35:24 <kmc> ok
00:36:37 <elliott> todo figure out something exciting to do with kmc's irc passwords
00:36:51 <Bike> have him rejoin #haskell as a celebrity
00:36:57 <kmc> c.c
00:37:21 <Bike> and then uh say that he's moved on to a better language like C++caml or w/e
00:37:34 <kmc> maybe i will be writing Rust at my day job soon
00:37:42 <elliott> i would spend less time yelling at people in #haskell if kmc was there to also yell
00:37:45 <elliott> - my endorsement
00:38:09 <Sgeo_> for f in *; do gunzip $f; done
00:38:13 <Sgeo_> Erm
00:38:17 <Sgeo_> for f in *.gz; do gunzip $f; done
00:38:27 <kmc> gun zip
00:38:28 <Sgeo_> Is this a reasonable thing to do if I think some of them are invalid?
00:39:33 <Sgeo_> Seemed to work
00:39:39 <kmc> sounds good
00:40:25 <Jafet> for f in *.gz; do if ! gz -t "$f"; then mv "$f" bad; else gunzip "$f"; fi; done
00:40:53 <Sgeo_> There were only two that were bad
00:40:58 <Sgeo_> And I don't know what ! means
00:41:03 <Sgeo_> or -t
00:41:10 <Sgeo_> or gz
00:41:27 <Jafet> or ""
00:41:30 <Bike> -t Test. Check the compressed file integrity.
00:41:57 <Sgeo_> Timidity was last updated 2004?!?
00:42:02 <Sgeo_> Maybe there's better software now?
00:44:04 <Jafet> Maybe they couldn't bear to work any longer with cvs
00:45:11 <Sgeo_> Oh, I think the webpage I found is old
00:46:05 <kmc> ! means 'not'
00:47:04 <Sgeo_> "Does ! mean not?" "!false"
00:47:34 <kmc> well !false in Bash would be something different from ! false
00:47:35 <kmc> sadly
00:47:52 <Jafet> * TiMidity++-2.13.2 2004-10-03
00:47:55 <Jafet> * TiMidity++-2.14.0 2012-06-29
00:48:17 <Jafet> Great release schedule
00:48:23 <kmc> if it ain't broke
00:48:31 <kmc> (but it's software so it probably is broke)
00:48:39 <Sgeo_> Clearly it was broke if they needed to release a 2.14
00:48:43 <shachaf> if it ain't broke don't pay it?
00:48:46 <Jafet> It probably isn't fully working to begin with
00:48:54 <Bike> kmc as a civil engineer would be fun. "this bridge is so patched together"
00:49:16 <Jafet> We got this bridge for free, so it's ok
00:49:35 <Sgeo_> Somehow I doubt Gregor would encourage me to choose fluidsynth over timidity
00:49:47 <Jafet> Also only depraved electronic musicians use that bridge
00:49:52 <kmc> i would hire web startup ninjas to design a bridge
00:49:56 <kmc> because they are experts at all things
00:50:07 <shachaf> Jafet: what was that about roaches in @tell
00:50:46 <Jafet> <shachaf> Jafet: You remind me of the roaches in `olist.
00:50:52 <shachaf> Oh.
00:50:52 <Gregor> I would encourage anyone and everyone to choose fluidsynth over timidity.
00:50:54 <shachaf> I guess you did.
00:51:00 <shachaf> Thafet
00:51:04 <Gregor> timidity is the most buggy piece of software on Earth, but it is far, far superior to timidity.
00:51:06 <Gregor> Erm
00:51:07 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think?
00:51:10 <Gregor> fluidsynth is the most buggy piece of software on Earth, but it is far, far superior to timidity.
00:51:27 <Gregor> All the stability in the world won't stop timidity from being crap.
00:51:37 <Sgeo_> o.O how is timidity crap?
00:51:42 <Gregor> It uses GUS patches.
00:51:47 <Sgeo_> GUS patches?
00:51:49 <Gregor> There's just no way to make them sound good.
00:51:56 <pikhq> Gravis UltraSound.
00:51:57 <Gregor> A form of patchset that's older than both of us.
00:52:05 <Gregor> (OK, not actually older than both of us ;) )
00:52:11 <pikhq> It was popular in 1992.
00:52:12 <elliott> older than one of us
00:52:26 <Sgeo_> What sort of thing is Unison.sf2 in?
00:52:33 <Gregor> SoundFont.
00:52:33 <Sgeo_> I'm kind of used to it
00:52:35 <pikhq> A *1992* wavetable based synth? Maaan.
00:52:35 <Gregor> That's for fluidsynth.
00:52:46 <Sgeo_> I could have sworn I made timidity use Unison
00:53:03 <Sgeo_> Years ago
00:53:05 <Gregor> I think that timidity can do a sort of internal conversion, but it's just that.
00:53:13 <Gregor> It doesn't actually take advantage of any of SF's better featuresa.
00:53:14 <pikhq> This was a time when not having a CD-ROM interface meant it sucked. :P
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00:53:25 <Sgeo_> Hmm
00:53:34 <Gregor> So yeah. fluidsynth.
00:53:39 -!- alejandro has left.
00:53:55 <Sgeo_> Wish I could install software on here
00:53:58 <Sgeo_> I think I broke apt
00:54:09 <Gregor> fluidsynth may have two bugs for every feature, but it is a /fundamentally/ superior technology.
00:54:12 <Sgeo_> Installing anything makes it want to install a new libc
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00:54:29 <Bike> you can never have enough libcs
00:54:35 <Gregor> ALL the libcs.
00:55:03 <Sgeo_> Gregor, ok, so, is there something to do conversion from .mid to normal sound using a soundfont with software better than fluidsynth>
00:55:04 <Sgeo_> ?
00:55:32 <Gregor> Err, it can be done with fluidsynth X-D
00:55:54 <Sgeo_> Does Unison make use of those features that Timidity can't handle?
00:56:01 <Sgeo_> Gregor, but if it's buggy...
00:56:03 <Gregor> Probably?
00:56:22 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Don't worry about fluidsynth's bugs until you run into them *shrugs*
00:57:00 <pikhq> I assume "buggy" means "it's liable to crash" and such.
00:57:04 <Gregor> They're mostly really stupid things, like failing to change instruments if the MIDI messages aren't in the "right" order or randomly deciding to or not to reset things between tracks or just crashing.
00:57:10 <Bike> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/reporters-use-google-find-breach-get-branded-as-hackers/ are you a wget hacker
00:57:20 <Gregor> Everything that isn't a crash is obvious.
00:57:31 <Gregor> I use fluidsynth for codu.org/webmidi , btw.
00:57:32 <Sgeo_> Gregor, so I may end up with 'wrong' music?
00:57:52 <Gregor> No, just potentially the wrong instruments or a crash.
00:58:20 <Sgeo_> how is wrong instruments not wrong music?
00:58:33 <Sgeo_> Hmm, you like SONiVOX?
00:58:50 <Gregor> As SF2 libraries gos, SONiVOX makes amongst the best.
00:59:04 <Gregor> (i.e., they're the only sort of professional sound designers willing to lower themselves to SF2)
00:59:17 <Sgeo_> So, probably better than Unison then
00:59:23 <Sgeo_> But I guess I'd have to buy the soundfont?
00:59:39 <Sgeo_> .........it's a hundred dollars
00:59:44 <pikhq> So. MIDI, it sucks.
00:59:47 <Gregor> Yeah. It's not cheap, and not worth it if you don't have real need for it :)
00:59:53 <Gregor> Naw, MIDI is great :)
01:00:16 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/19904281061092/19904281061092.ogg
01:01:01 <Sgeo_> From wrlds1.mid
01:01:05 <Gregor> Sounds like MIDI.
01:01:21 <Jafet> Bike: if a website shows your personal information on ?id=100 and you change that to ?id=101 that's illegal hth
01:01:32 <Bike> hey i've done that before
01:01:44 <Jafet> You CRIMINAL HACKER
01:01:44 <Bike> i'm an official cyber criminal (michael jackson plays)
01:01:54 <Jafet> Cracker: criminal hacker
01:02:13 <Gregor> Cracker: white criminal hacker
01:02:15 <Bike> `quote cracker
01:02:21 <HackEgo> No output.
01:02:24 <Bike> yo fuck you
01:03:24 <Jafet> `quote fuck
01:03:25 <HackEgo> 179) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi \ 224) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck \ 242) <oklopol> okay see in m
01:03:29 <shachaf> i demand that Gregor be -v
01:03:54 <Sgeo_> Gregor, is Chorium good?
01:03:58 <Sgeo_> Is it free?
01:04:03 <Gregor> Chorium is as good as free gets.
01:04:11 <Sgeo_> Hmm, ok
01:04:19 <shachaf> Gregor: How's the accordion hunt going?
01:04:32 <Gregor> shachaf: I have two but neither are exactly great *sigh*
01:04:45 <shachaf> I mean the chromatic button accordion hunt.
01:04:46 <Sgeo_> Gregor, so, you'd recommend it over Unison?
01:05:06 <Sgeo_> I don't know where I got this idea that Unison is awesome?
01:05:45 <Sgeo_> I can't just use your web service to render all my MIDIs, can I? >:D
01:06:39 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/202062800218550/202062800218550.ogg is it just me or does the Chorium version sound significantly different?
01:06:41 <Gregor> Sure *shrugs*
01:06:52 <Gregor> Of course it sounds significantly different.
01:06:55 <Gregor> Oh god those strings X_X
01:07:00 <Gregor> Strings are always the worst.
01:07:10 <Bike> do we have good string synth yet i forgot
01:07:15 <Gregor> Nope.
01:07:18 <Bike> got it
01:07:36 <Sgeo_> But I don't think Sonivox even did the strings, it sounded like a different instrument?
01:07:40 <Sgeo_> Or am I imagining things
01:07:46 <shachaf> Gregor: How many buttons in a chromatic button accordion?
01:07:52 <shachaf> At least four, right?
01:07:59 <Gregor> shachaf: Considerably more I'd say.
01:08:04 <shachaf> Eight?
01:08:05 <Gregor> shachaf: 120 in the bass, not sure about the trouble.
01:08:06 <Gregor> Erm
01:08:08 <Gregor> Treble X_X
01:08:20 <shachaf> Gregor is trouble
01:08:41 <Sgeo_> Gregor, sonivox sounds better but I want free
01:08:53 <Sgeo_> I can't just go try Unison on your web service magically, can I?
01:09:04 <Gregor> No, but if you can send me a link to it, I can add it.
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01:09:27 <Sgeo_> http://www.personalcopy.com/linuxfiles.htm
01:11:39 <Sgeo_> I never tried personalcopy
01:13:22 <Sgeo_> "Peter Jevnisek's wonderful new GM/GS soundbank is now here for download and is one of the most popular on this site. This is the one that's been talked about in the newsgroups, previewed with some mp3 samples, and has everyone waiting with baited breath! A wonderfully musical and clean sound; if you're using the SBLive! you must download this soundfont."
01:13:26 <Sgeo_> (about Unison)
01:14:44 * Sgeo_ wants to know what Gregor thinks about Unison
01:17:05 <Gregor> It's still downloading.
01:17:08 <Gregor> That's what I think.
01:18:43 <Sgeo_> On Windows I used to use some... thing by Yamaha
01:18:46 <Sgeo_> To play MIDIs
01:18:48 <Sgeo_> I really liked it
01:22:32 <Gregor> There, maybe I installed Unison.
01:23:54 <Sgeo_> :D
01:24:31 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214051887116122/214051887116122.ogg
01:25:00 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20734427124682/20734427124682.ogg it's nicer than Chorium I think
01:25:20 <Sgeo_> Well, at least at first
01:25:35 <Sgeo_> ...just heard an iffy part
01:25:46 <Gregor> I think you've just happened upon instruments that it does... "better".
01:26:07 <elliott> Gregor: what is it
01:26:08 <Gregor> 'cause Chorium's strings suck horribly. So do Unison's, but not quite as bad :)
01:26:13 <Gregor> elliott: EVERYTHING
01:26:14 <Gregor> elliott: ALL THE THINGS
01:26:19 <elliott> my speakers aren't even on!!!
01:26:28 <Sgeo_> I have another song to upload, although it might not be as legal
01:26:45 <Sgeo_> I like the way Unison treats the beginning though
01:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
01:27:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i'm coming to grips with the Grand Unified Theory Of Why Moffat Who Is Shit
01:27:49 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to {-_-}.
01:28:09 <Sgeo_> Oh Lamour in Unison: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20891761211620/20891761211620.ogg
01:28:36 <Sgeo_> Where's the sparkly effect I like? :(
01:28:42 -!- {-_-} has changed nick to eliot.
01:30:05 -!- dessos has left.
01:30:45 <Sgeo_> Might be wrong song :( or maybe it was on that Yamaha thing
01:31:00 -!- eliot has changed nick to copumpkin.
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01:32:23 <Sgeo_> Oh Lamour in Sonivox: http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/20991111911878/20991111911878.ogg
01:32:43 <Sgeo_> Are there cheaper Sonivox soundfonts?
01:36:23 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/211401281913892/211401281913892.ogg Oh Lamour in Chorium
01:36:36 <Sgeo_> Definitely sounds more artificial than SONiVOX sounds
01:36:38 <Gregor> Plenty, but as per a full general MIDI soundfont, the only options are their 250MB $100 one or their 24MB $70 one.
01:37:38 <elliott> that is some non-linear pricing
01:37:42 <Sgeo_> "not worth it if you don't have real need for it :)"
01:37:49 <Sgeo_> So, what soundfonts would be worth it?
01:38:03 <Sgeo_> I want to hear the huge MIDI collection I have sound beautiful
01:38:50 <Gregor> If you're not willing to pay anything, Chorium. Otherwise, SONiVOX. There is nothing in between.
01:39:26 <shachaf> i'm willing to pay $1.00
01:39:26 <Sgeo_> Chorium screwed up wrlds1 so badly
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01:39:58 <Sgeo_> Well, not that badly I guess
01:44:51 <kmc> bored
01:45:01 <Sgeo_> Listen to the .ogg I'm going to link soon
01:45:15 <Sgeo_> A file I called "ZeldaMario.mid" rendered with sonivox
01:45:20 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/214081523917090/214081523917090.ogg
01:45:36 <Sgeo_> Hmm... it sounds... off
01:47:09 <elliott> kmc: hi
01:47:16 <kmc> helliott
01:47:32 <shachaf> 'eegan
01:47:43 <kmc> what should i do
01:47:45 <elliott> helliott sounds pretty metal
01:47:49 <Sgeo_> Gregor, why does that song sound off?
01:48:46 <kmc> maybe i should drink alcohol
01:48:50 <elliott> kmc: join my metal band compromised entirely of people whose names start with "ell" and who are greeted look around you-style on a regular basis
01:48:55 <elliott> n.b. you might have to change your name
01:49:01 <elliott> but it will be worth it
01:49:02 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/215343205724631/215343205724631.ogg
01:49:04 <Sgeo_> stheme5a
01:49:07 <Sgeo_> in Sonivox
01:49:23 <Sgeo_> The strings seem to be crowding out the melody
01:51:19 <kmc> hm when I preview a text attachment in GMail, Google prefixes exactly 256 bytes of whitespace
01:51:24 <kmc> i wonder what the hilarious reason is
01:51:38 <Sgeo_> preventing content-sniffing as HTML in shitty browsers?
01:52:11 <kmc> maybe
01:52:14 <Gregor> Sgeo_: It's assuming that these instruments will have an instantaneous attack, which makes no sense physically.
01:52:39 <kmc> the browser will sniff even if the server sends content-type: text/plain ?
01:52:44 <kmc> and it only looks at 256 bytes?
01:52:55 <Sgeo_> kmc, IE ... oh, I think Safari does too sometimes
01:53:26 <Sgeo_> maybe old safari
01:53:45 <Sgeo_> Gregor, what, the MIDI file is?
01:54:33 <Gregor> So to speak.
01:54:41 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, it actually scans the first 256 bytes pretty much regardless.
01:54:58 <pikhq> Its algorithm for doing so uses the server-sent MIME type *as a parameter in its heuristics*.
01:55:05 <kmc> sigh
01:55:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq, which browser??
01:55:11 <kmc> fuck postel's law
01:55:15 <pikhq> Sgeo_: IE
01:55:23 <Sgeo_> I think IE has a header to disable sniffing
01:55:53 <Sgeo_> X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff
01:55:55 <pikhq> To be fair-ish, MIME type detection is at least a feature web browsers need to have.
01:56:03 <pikhq> An HTTP server doesn't *have* to send a MIME type.
01:56:07 <pikhq> Or indeed any headers.
01:56:36 <Sgeo_> Are there still HTTP/0.9 servers online?
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01:56:50 <pikhq> Probably.
01:57:02 <Sgeo_> :(
01:58:22 <Sgeo_> Gregor, I guess a lot of these MIDIs were made for older soundfonts?
01:58:39 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/218232634319680/218232634319680.ogg LogC in SONiVOX
01:59:11 <Gregor> In a manner of speaking. Ideally MIDIs are made for a particular suite of virtual instruments, but in practice they tend to be made to sound good on Windows software synth ;)
01:59:13 <madbr> sgeo: or fm synth cards?
01:59:32 <kmc> some midis are made to play on actual pianos and such ;)
02:00:08 <madbr> it's hard to make midi sound not cheesey because usually the sample set gets way overused since it's the same for every song
02:00:11 <Sgeo_> Most of these MIDIs are probably a decade old
02:00:13 <Sgeo_> Or older
02:00:18 <kmc> what's the comic sans of soundfonts
02:00:40 <madbr> not to mention that you can't mix midi because every soundfont/synth is different
02:00:59 <madbr> kmc: most common atm is gm.dls
02:01:26 <madbr> but the soundfont on old sb awe32/awe64 cards was really cheesey too
02:02:20 <madbr> it had some ok samples but the snare was really really cheesey
02:02:27 <madbr> and snare drum is used on everything
02:02:36 <copumpkin> http://i.imgur.com/lbBR9dY.gif
02:02:54 <kmc> lolwut
02:04:20 <madbr> plus everything was drowned in chorus and reverb anyways
02:04:23 <elliott> hm
02:04:24 <kmc> ok i did 50 jumping jacks
02:04:26 <elliott> i smell something burning
02:04:26 <Sgeo_> Ok, Glee1a isn't even playing on my computer
02:04:26 <kmc> still/again bored
02:04:29 <elliott> that's probably bad
02:04:59 <elliott> @time kmc
02:05:00 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Tue May 21 22:04:59 2013
02:05:03 <madbr> <- not really a fan of midi :3
02:05:10 <elliott> kmc: happy 22:05
02:05:32 <Sgeo_> <- really a fan of midi :3
02:06:10 <Sgeo_> glee1a
02:06:11 <madbr> I'm a diehard fan of impulse tracker tbh
02:06:16 <Sgeo_> The beginning sounds weird http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/220073105321700
02:06:17 <kmc> what has 2 thumbs and is a big fan of midi
02:06:57 <Sgeo_> :D
02:07:13 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/220073105321700/log.txt
02:07:18 <Sgeo_> Warnings about invalid generators
02:07:23 <Sgeo_> I don't know what generators are
02:08:02 <elliott> i have seven thumbs
02:08:16 <madbr> heh it's like it's playing some real fast line and the ice rain patch can't follow
02:08:23 <madbr> probably sounds ok on FM synths tho
02:19:21 <Sgeo_> Putting in song from a movie... now
02:19:26 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/224151221912487/224151221912487.ogg
02:19:42 <Sgeo_> But that movie is not where I nostalgize it from
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02:22:03 <madbr> this has zimmerness
02:22:45 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/225562643528383/225562643528383.ogg
02:23:10 <Sgeo_> :( was fully expecting the 'quality' of the sound font to be a detriment to this song, and it is
02:23:35 <Sgeo_> There's supposed to be a rougher feel
02:23:42 <Sgeo_> Or at least, I've always heard it with a very rough feel
02:26:01 <Sgeo_> And now for a deliberately sickingly cute song:
02:26:15 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/226811563322357/226811563322357.ogg
02:26:25 <elliott> sickingly
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02:28:24 <Sgeo_> sickiningly
02:28:29 <Sgeo_> sickingingly
02:28:36 <elliott> you've... almost got it
02:28:44 <Sgeo_> sickeningly (thanks to spell-checker)
02:31:16 <Bike> kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13691253090A82340100&page=1#20 plz to comment on: Security Theater
02:34:24 <Sgeo_> Going to post
02:34:27 <Sgeo_> And register
02:34:35 <Bike> on what
02:36:28 <Bike> if you mean tvtropes then fucking don't please
02:39:21 <Jafet> You're going to register at a website because it leaks login details in cleartext
02:39:48 <Sgeo_> Just posted
02:39:53 <Sgeo_> Turned out I was already registered
02:39:59 <Bike> oh my god.
02:40:21 <kmc> uh i don't want to read all of this
02:40:32 <kmc> but yes a lot of people are confused about what password hashing is good for
02:40:33 <Sgeo_> kmc, just read the (now second-to-last) post
02:40:44 <Bike> Basically the system checks if you're logged in by having your username and password in cookies.
02:40:54 <Bike> Encrypting anything is just security theater.
02:40:55 <copumpkin> I rot13 my password 1000000 times to make it harder to brute force
02:41:02 <copumpkin> that's like pbkdf2 but better
02:41:04 <kmc> also people should stop saying "encrypt" when they mean "hash"
02:41:06 <copumpkin> cause nobody will expect it
02:41:10 <kmc> copbkdf2kin
02:41:14 <shachaf> pbkdf13
02:41:20 <Bike> i don't know anything, it's true.
02:41:46 <kmc> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028000.do?sortby=publicationDate wow
02:42:15 <copumpkin> wow
02:42:26 <Bike> yet few resources are dedicated to this data type.
02:42:31 <Jafet> They should call it "C: the fun parts"
02:42:31 <kmc> good morning mr. magpie
02:42:35 <copumpkin> 226 pages of it
02:43:23 <Sgeo_> Just verified username + pass being sent plaintext over http
02:43:31 <Bike> "Apply concepts to real-world problems: model the behavior of boats, airplanes, cars, and sports balls" i didn't know people called them "sports balls"
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02:44:13 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTV0cBGbaM
02:45:40 <elliott> <kmc> also people should stop saying "encrypt" when they mean "hash"
02:45:49 <elliott> really when someone says the kind of things said there there's a good chance it's actual encryption
02:46:07 <Sgeo_> I didn't even mention the 'it should be hashed' thing in my post
02:46:11 <Sgeo_> One step at a time
02:46:25 <Bike> you're fighting an uphill battle. for no reason
02:46:31 <Jafet> Dance ball modelling
02:46:44 <Sgeo_> I was kind of hoping someone could verify that my understanding is correct
02:47:19 <shachaf> since when do people say "encrypt" when they're talking about drugz (kmc drugz joke)
02:47:36 <Jafet> They want to be "cryptic"
02:48:09 <elliott> Q: how was the cryptographer buried? A: they were encrypted
02:48:38 <shachaf> kmc: you should grade cannabis quality as sha-1 sha-256 etc.
02:48:46 <elliott> imo that was pretty good
02:49:12 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should explain how sending it encrypted is safe
02:49:29 <shachaf> who cares, it's tvtropes
02:49:33 <Sgeo_> (If Fast Eddie posts and says that sending over https is equiv. to http, I'll do that)
02:49:35 <kmc> shachaf: haha yes I will do that
02:50:04 <Jafet> "This batch is really RIPEMD"
02:50:11 <kmc> you can buy a /lot/ of different strains of weed in SF
02:55:06 <shachaf> have you bought any
02:55:50 <Bike> What's different between strains?
02:58:07 <kmc> shachaf: not directly
02:58:35 <kmc> Bike: different mixture of cannabinoids, producing a different effect, supposedly
02:58:45 <Bike> only supposedly?
02:59:00 <shachaf> Maybe only supposedly, maybe supposedly and also actually.
02:59:17 <kmc> what shachaf said
02:59:36 * shachaf is clearly an expert on this topic.
02:59:52 <kmc> lots of people talk about a difference between Cannabis sativa and Cannabis indica, at least
03:00:43 <elliott> cannabis weedia
03:02:25 <kmc> 'A study published in the South African Journal of Science showed that "pipes dug up from the garden of Shakespeare's home in Stratford upon Avon contain traces of cannabis." The chemical analysis was carried out after researchers hypothesized that the "noted weed" mentioned in Sonnet 76 and the "journey in my head" from Sonnet 27 could be references to cannabis and the use thereof.'
03:02:31 <kmc> awesome
03:02:40 <elliott> noted weed is a good name for it
03:03:04 <kmc> shakespeare gotta get blazed son
03:04:04 <Bike> Why write I still all one, ever the same, // And keep invention in a noted weed, // That every word doth almost tell my name, // Showing their birth, and where did they proceed?
03:04:07 <Bike> the weed experience.
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03:05:06 <elliott> A Noted Weed: the Keegan McAllister Story
03:05:17 <elliott> would read/watch
03:05:40 <Bike> «This interpretation is based on an assumption about the colloquialism "weed". It was not used in reference to the drug marajuana in the USA until the 1920s,» sux
03:05:42 <shachaf> kmc should get a drugz named after him
03:05:52 <elliott> Bike: shut. shut up. stop ruining it
03:06:09 <Bike> Well, I mean. He probably did actually smoke weed.
03:06:22 <shachaf> who doesn't, right
03:06:26 <Bike> Right.
03:06:31 <shachaf> WRONG
03:07:28 <shachaf> smbc++
03:07:57 <kmc> so did shakespeare smoke pot or not
03:08:02 <kmc> i demand a yes/no answer
03:08:12 <elliott> yes and yes
03:08:24 <Bike> come on man you know the history of drugz better than anyone
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03:08:43 <shachaf> did shakespeare use lsd or not
03:09:22 <kmc> doubtful
03:09:35 <Bike> shakespeare was a noted biochemist in his day
03:09:39 <elliott> we're going to make some absolute zingers when kmc gets the death penalty for smuggling drugs
03:09:57 <elliott> using #esoteric logs as evidence
03:10:23 <elliott> pretty sure this is what inevitably happens to anyone who slides down the slippery slope that is gateway drugs (the gateway is to hell)
03:11:16 <shachaf> elliott: is that the hardest drugz of all
03:11:34 <Bike> *turkmenistani photograph*
03:11:58 <elliott> i don't even know if that's a thing you get death penalty for in the america's
03:12:04 <shachaf> copyright infringement hth
03:12:12 <shachaf> oh, i misread that
03:13:35 <kmc> smug druggling
03:17:02 <kmc> also, just POSTing username / password over HTTPS is not enough
03:17:15 <kmc> you pretty much need to serve the whole site over HTTPS to have good security
03:17:37 <shachaf> But POSTing the password over https is better than nothing.
03:17:41 <Bike> alright i'm going to comment on this again even though i decided it would be a bad idea to:
03:17:49 <kmc> an active attacker could tamper with the real login form, or serve a fake login form to an already-logged-in user
03:17:51 <copumpkin> not if someone serves up a page that doesn't post the password over https
03:17:59 <pikhq> Yeah, but if you use HTTPS at all you should use HTTPS entirely.
03:18:06 <Bike> last time something this stupid came up, he said password security didn't matter because it was just for edits and avoiding spammers
03:18:17 <pikhq> Otherwise it provides only *miniscule* benefits.
03:18:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: I've explicitly added https: to the URL before logging in in the past.
03:18:36 <kmc> shachaf: it is better than nothing, but it's also a handy excuse for not doing more, I guess
03:18:40 <pikhq> (namely, an attacker would have to spend fractional amount of time to do it)
03:18:42 <Bike> and when i say "something this stupid" i mean "the same thing" since it's been like this since i quit, which was in ancient times.
03:18:56 <kmc> i'm not sure really, it's a tricky organizational question and not a technical one
03:19:09 <kmc> whether these half measures are better than nothing
03:19:11 <elliott> kmc: our esolang wiki has a totally insecure login :'(
03:19:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: Besides, someone could do that anyway, if you ever make a non-https request.
03:19:34 <kmc> The moral of the story is, I chose a half measure, when I should have gone all the way. I'll never make that mistake again. No more half measures.
03:19:55 <copumpkin> shachaf: that's why kmc says the entire site should be
03:19:58 <copumpkin> and you should keep an eye on that
03:20:21 <pikhq> Y'know, the whole "scream bloody murder on self-signed HTTPS certs" thing bothers me.
03:20:27 <elliott> maybe i should make the wiki https-y
03:20:29 <elliott> sounds scary though
03:20:31 <shachaf> Sure, but a user can still type in an http: URL.
03:20:42 <shachaf> Anyway I agree with y'all that it's the right thing to do.
03:20:52 <Bike> elliott: have you considered switching to a more ssecure platform, like pmwiki
03:21:06 <elliott> Bike: what's the joke here
03:21:07 <kmc> pikhq: why
03:21:07 <elliott> does tvtropes use it
03:21:23 <pikhq> HTTP < self-signed HTTPS < properly signed HTTPS, but browsers treat it as self-signed HTTPS < HTTP < properly signed HTTPS.
03:21:53 <kmc> well the self-signed cert could be a sign that Someone Is Doing Something Nasty
03:22:08 <pikhq> Yes, but then it could just be going down to HTTP.
03:22:35 <pikhq> It'd be one thing if they warned when a site suddenly *changed* to self-signed.
03:23:06 <kmc> i think there was a time when browsers had a padlock icon for https but didn't have a similar indication of whether the cert is good or not
03:23:19 <pikhq> And I don't think they should do that "Oh, it's signed, you can trust this site" green lock thing...
03:23:31 <kmc> these days though at least Chrome puts a red slash through 'https' if the cert is untrusted
03:23:42 <shachaf> I,I httpi:
03:23:49 <pikhq> i.e. self-signed HTTPS should look pretty much like straight HTTP to an end-user if it's untrusted.
03:24:01 <pikhq> But it definitely should be *allowed*.
03:24:37 <elliott> the ca system is lol imo
03:24:39 <pikhq> Particularly if they add to it an SSH-like policy of "when the cert changes, scream bloody murder".
03:24:47 <pikhq> Yeah, the CA system is kinda... dubious.
03:25:05 <kmc> yep
03:25:10 <shachaf> imo kmc should move there anyway
03:25:11 <Bike> what is a good system
03:25:15 <kmc> i like how it doesn't matter if you buy a cert from a good CA or a bad one
03:25:24 <elliott> i mean self-signed is perfectly good for encryption
03:25:33 <kmc> so there is no financial incentive for CAs to be good
03:25:44 <elliott> and it's not like https has done "verification" well ever
03:25:44 <kmc> as long as they are just good enough to not get removed from browsers
03:26:13 <pikhq> Bike: Almost anything else really.
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03:26:33 <pikhq> The CA system basically amounts to "trust ANYTHING these guys say to trust".
03:27:18 <elliott> imagine actually trusting verisign
03:27:51 <Bike> obviously what we need is small scale societies. kill a few billion people and then the remainder can all trust each other because they know each other
03:28:11 <elliott> now who's the malthus
03:28:15 <shachaf> i trust tricycles and unicycles
03:28:37 <Bike> "Now Who's The Malthus" is the worst party game
03:40:13 <Jafet> kmc: browsers don't remove bad CAs
03:40:19 <Jafet> They only remove CAs that nobody uses
03:40:58 <Bike> they remove them if they're publically compromised
03:41:50 <Jafet> You think so
03:42:07 <Jafet> According to this firefox, it still ships with root for diginotar
03:43:39 <Bike> https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2011/08/29/fraudulent-google-com-certificate/ i guess
03:43:50 <kmc> https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2013/01/03/revoking-trust-in-two-turktrust-certficates/
03:44:22 <kmc> i see changes to the CA list in my debian updates pretty often, as well
03:44:45 <kmc> i don't know if they were all Google and Mozilla's doing or some were Debian's
03:45:03 <Jafet> kmc: looks like a CA nobody uses
03:59:09 <kmc> PKI is fucked
03:59:11 <kmc> film at 11
04:00:10 <Bike> is that another kurdish militia
04:00:15 <kmc> lol
04:00:17 <Bike> oh, CAs
04:00:18 <kmc> should be
04:00:47 <kmc> i remember back when I read Fark they would have lots of posts about FARC, the colombian guerillas
04:00:50 <kmc> good times
04:01:18 <Bike> I could have sworn there was a Kurdish rebel organization called PKI, like a splinter from the PKK, but nope.
04:02:23 <kmc> #esoteric should become a Kurdish rebel organization
04:02:23 <oonbotti> Nothing here
04:02:39 <Bike> well, the PKK is retreating from Turkey.
04:02:48 <Bike> There's probably a vacuum for splinter groups that don't want to do so.
04:02:51 <kmc> does 'oonbotti' mean something in Finnish?
04:03:17 <kmc> google says that "olen botti" means "i have a bot"
04:04:02 <Sgeo_> I want to do that rendering of MIDIs, but just don't know if it's worth it
04:04:03 <shachaf> i thought "olen" was ~ "i am"
04:04:09 <Sgeo_> Erm, having to choose just one soundfont
04:04:22 <Sgeo_> Also, does EC2 come with storage?
04:04:24 <kmc> you should render { all MIDIs } x { all soundfonts }
04:04:41 <Sgeo_> Does YouTube have limits on how much you can upload?
04:04:41 <kmc> and have an interface for voting on which one is best
04:04:45 <kmc> i'm serious, this would be a cool project
04:05:02 <Sgeo_> Fun fact: A lot of the MIDIs I have have random names
04:05:14 <Sgeo_> I've been thinking about doing a project where people could tag the MIDIs
04:05:16 <kmc> how do you know they're random
04:05:22 <Sgeo_> Pseudorandom
04:05:29 <Sgeo_> At least, incomprehensible to me
04:05:35 <Sgeo_> Even if not random
04:05:40 <kmc> EC2 has like seven kinds of storage
04:05:49 <Sgeo_> 80d8a266.mid
04:05:50 <kmc> each more confusing and terrible than the rest
04:05:54 <Sgeo_> for example
04:06:02 <kmc> does that correspond to a well known hash of the file
04:06:42 <Sgeo_> I don't ... think so
04:06:56 <Bike> where do you like... get midis, as a thing
04:06:58 <Sgeo_> I've seen separate installations of the program give different files the same name
04:07:16 <Bike> i mean is that like just downloading every mp3 ever
04:07:39 <kmc> midis sound better when you download them over gopher
04:07:53 <Sgeo_> BYOND is where these weirdly named files came from. Game makers include MIDIs, and also a few of the games allow people to share music, so some of them are from random people
04:08:10 <Sgeo_> There's also Active Worlds, and Worlds.com, although the MIDIs from those are more sanely named
04:08:11 <shachaf> real audiophiles scoff at midis and lois and go straight to highis
04:12:25 <Sgeo_> It shouldn't take an hour to render 917 MIDIs, should it?
04:12:32 <Sgeo_> Ok, maybe it would take more than an hour
04:12:51 <Bike> imo write a super optimized renderer
04:12:57 <kmc> node.js can render over 10,000 midis per second
04:13:12 <Sgeo_> http://daychilde.com/midiguy/ in case anyone wants my midis
04:13:27 <Sgeo_> There's also a .zip file of all of them at http://daychilde.com/midiguy/AllMIDIs.zip
04:18:41 <Sgeo_> What happens if I hate Amazon or if Amazon dies? Are there other things similar to EC2?
04:18:59 <kmc> there are lots of hosting providers
04:19:00 <Deewiant> kmc: 'oonbotti' ~ "I'm a bot" or "O's bot"
04:19:19 <kmc> there are lots of 'cloud' providers meaning they have an API to provision new machines etc
04:19:25 <kmc> there might even be some with an EC2 compatible API
04:19:44 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus_(computing) is a package for building AWS-compatible clouds
04:19:52 <kmc> dunno if it's any good, i've only used the client tools
04:19:58 <Sgeo_> Can I just ssh into an instance and do stuff from there, or do I have to design an 'application'?
04:20:04 <kmc> you can do the former
04:21:13 <kmc> they have a lot of fancy terminology for what boils down to just a Linux server
04:21:17 <kmc> at least in the simple use cases
04:21:28 <Sgeo_> Hmmm... in theory, I should be able to VNC into a Windows Server, right? I could play games on EC2 if I wanted!
04:21:33 <kmc> lol
04:27:08 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/549/the-definitive-guide-to-forms-based-website-authentication well then.
04:28:09 <shachaf> https://bi.ke
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05:40:32 <shachaf> Debian GNU/Hurd 2013 is out!
05:40:35 <shachaf> Finally.
05:46:16 <pikhq> Clearly the most important thing.
05:46:42 <coppro> man, that thing is still around?
05:47:02 <Bike> the hurd is eternal
05:47:14 <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:45 <coppro> `addquote <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:53 <HackEgo> 1039) <kmc> the real GNU kernel is GRUB
05:47:56 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, it really is.
05:47:58 <kmc> it's funny because it's true
05:48:09 <coppro> ^
05:48:20 <Sgeo_> I remember reading about lilo in a Linux book I had
05:48:32 <Sgeo_> That book also mentioned fvwm95
05:48:37 <pikhq> It's got so many fancy features on top of its *base* not really working.
05:49:05 <Sgeo_> "FVWM98 is a derivative of FVWM95 that is newer, and designed to look like Windows 98 instead of Windows 95."
05:49:14 <coppro> it's really (the) shit
05:49:20 <kmc> O:
05:49:20 <Sgeo_> Err... there's a significant appearance difference between 95 and 98?
05:49:26 <pikhq> Yeah, actually.
05:49:28 <kmc> LOADLIN is where it's at
05:49:41 <pikhq> And, LILO ain't really an archaicism.
05:49:49 <pikhq> It's fallen out of *favor*, but it's definitely still around.
05:49:57 <kmc> LOADLIN 4 lyfe
05:50:04 <Sgeo_> o.O what appearance differences?
05:50:54 <pikhq> You know that gradient in the title bar?
05:50:58 <pikhq> Windows 95 didn't have that.
05:51:15 <pikhq> It also looks rather different courtesy of not having the IE integration.
05:51:27 <kmc> LOADLIN and Penguin
05:51:40 <pikhq> Actually, the Windows 95 colorscheme in general was different from 98, the other differences were just subtle.
05:51:52 <pikhq> Somewhat warmer colors.
05:52:42 <Sgeo_> As a kid I told someone to 'look for Windows Update' to tell whether they were using 95 or 98
05:52:43 <pikhq> http://toastytech.com/guis/win95desktop3.png http://toastytech.com/guis/win98desk.gif
05:53:01 <kmc> http://windows95tips.com/
05:53:21 <pikhq> In many ways 95 looked nicer.
05:53:38 <Bike> windows95tips has like three times as many followers as his other blogs combined do, and he doesn't understand that at all, it's great
05:53:39 <pikhq> Particularly on 640x480.
05:53:44 <Sgeo_> What's that red icon on the 98 one?
05:53:59 <pikhq> Not sure.
05:54:12 <pikhq> Oh, Compaq BS.
05:54:13 <Sgeo_> I should really be sleeping
05:54:34 <kmc> did any of you play that Hover game that came on the Win 95 CD
05:54:43 <Sgeo_> I have, at a friend's hous
05:54:44 <pikhq> http://toastytech.com/guis/win98bg.gif Windows 98 was... dubious.
05:54:44 <Sgeo_> house
05:54:48 <pikhq> kmc: Never had it on CD.
05:55:10 <kmc> i should download and play it immediately
05:55:11 <Sgeo_> pikhq, when the desktop background crashed, it was mostly white with some text, I forget what
05:55:23 <pikhq> I had preinstalled Windows 95 and no idea where the install disc was, and access to the 95 floppies.
05:55:44 <pikhq> They were my grandmother's, but eh.
05:55:47 <kmc> i wonder how paranoid I should be about the possibility that someone has inserted Linux malware in a copy of an 18 year old Windows game
05:56:10 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mclb4vv5tA1rehruqo1_400.png definitely this paranoid
05:56:22 <pikhq> Funny thing, I can't seem to find a copy of the Windows 95 *CD* to pirate at all.
05:56:29 <pikhq> Floppy images sure, but not the CD.
05:56:30 <Sgeo_> That looks like a right hand
05:56:38 <kmc> i think I have a 98SE ISO
05:56:45 <kmc> best version of 9x of course
05:56:47 <Sgeo_> I have a 98SE ISO somewhere
05:56:49 <pikhq> Yeah. I can find 98 and 98SE just fine.
05:56:56 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4KAFMS4MOY
05:56:57 <pikhq> And even ME.
05:57:00 <pikhq> But not 95.
05:57:23 <Sgeo_> I remember Dilbert's Desktop Games
05:57:27 <pikhq> Sadly, I can't find evidence of the 95 5.25" floppy set other than a mention of it.
05:57:50 <pikhq> Yes, apparently you could order a copy of Windows 95 on 5.25" floppies.
05:57:54 <Sgeo_> I remember going into class, I forget the exact reason for this, but I remember saying to the class that I wanted to play it but didn't feel comfortable with the violence
05:58:01 <Sgeo_> (Because of use of a cell phone to shock people)
05:58:11 <Bike> the violence in Dilbert's Desktop Games?
05:58:30 <Sgeo_> Yes
05:59:44 <coppro> sigh, hormones are irritating sometimes
05:59:49 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po3Mp2fOhTI
05:59:52 <Sgeo_> Techno Raiders
05:59:58 <pikhq> coppro: They are. Why do you mention it though?
06:00:28 <coppro> pikhq: because they're being irritating to me at the moment and preventing me from simply enjoying time with certain female friends
06:00:55 <pikhq> How amazingly vague.
06:00:57 <coppro> (that is not to say that the make the time unenjoyable, just less so, because I am trying to ensure that they do not influence my actions excessively)
06:01:15 <coppro> what, you expect my life story?
06:01:32 <kmc> coppro: how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
06:01:33 <shachaf> That *is* what this channel is for.
06:01:35 * kmc is just curious
06:01:39 <shachaf> Isn't that so, Sgeo_?
06:01:49 <kmc> somebody once told me this problem gets better around age 25
06:01:53 <Bike> you know hormones have many important functions not related to tits i don't think you should be mean to hormones hello
06:02:02 * pikhq is a curious fellow, and also not particularly secretive.
06:02:32 <pikhq> For instance, today was a straight porn day, not a gay porn day.
06:02:33 <coppro> kmc: possible
06:02:44 <Bike> why divide it into days
06:02:50 <coppro> kmc: it also abates significant when in a relationship, for obvious reasons
06:02:54 <Bike> just have all time be all porn time
06:03:05 <pikhq> Bike: I'm bordering on that TBH. :P
06:03:19 <Bike> you bohemian
06:03:25 <coppro> hence, the real problem is that I am not currently dating, and my body is objecting to this fact and offering several suggestions
06:03:31 <pikhq> When your girlfriend hands you porn links at random hours, uh, yeah.
06:03:36 <kmc> :D
06:03:47 <Bike> "yo have you seen Slutbusters 5"
06:04:03 <coppro> my brain, meanwhile, is objecting to the objection
06:04:11 <kmc> ass blasters ε₀
06:04:16 <coppro> or at least wants to sit down sometime later when it's not going to be awkward and have an adult conversation about the matter
06:04:40 <Bike> clearly your problem is dualism
06:05:02 <coppro> clearly
06:05:04 <kmc> is the problem lack of dating or lack of sex or both
06:05:13 <coppro> kmc: former
06:05:20 <pikhq> Lack of sex is easy.
06:05:23 <coppro> ^
06:05:24 <kmc> is it?
06:05:25 <coppro> I deal with it regularly
06:05:38 <pikhq> Hmm, I think I could make it up to Waterloo. :P
06:05:53 <Bike> so: kmc's a nympho and everyone else is masturbating furiously
06:06:06 <kmc> i'm not a nympho :<
06:06:16 <kmc> i'd like to find more sex partners in fact
06:06:21 <kmc> but i'm lazy and bad at people
06:06:26 <pikhq> kmc: I hear ya.
06:06:46 <Bike> The Laziest Nympho
06:07:04 <pikhq> Open relationships are kinda funny when both people are also kinda lazy and bad at people.
06:07:08 <coppro> ^
06:07:15 <coppro> I'm not too bad at people, I just don't apply myself
06:07:37 <pikhq> "Y'know, we should totally have a threesome." "Yeah, but... who?" "Eh, we'll figure it out later."
06:07:51 <pikhq> It's a very strange sort of problem.
06:07:58 <kmc> i'm also kind of insecure about my own attractiveness
06:08:05 <kmc> ok, very insecure
06:08:05 <coppro> it *really* doesn't help that I have a habit of becoming enamored with people with whom I have to maintain professional relationships
06:08:10 <Bike> "honey, that's a dildo" "I'm not going out on Tuesday night."
06:08:32 <pikhq> I'm slightly insecure. My girlfriend is... quite insecure, though understandably so.
06:08:55 <shachaf> "quite insecure, though understandably so"
06:09:01 <coppro> (I've tried to do the simultaneous personal + professional relationship thing before. It wasn't actually that bad, but the entry and exit had better be flawless)
06:09:08 <pikhq> She's trans. So, yes, understandably so.
06:09:29 <Bike> sounded like you were insulting her, tho :P
06:09:36 <pikhq> Not at all.
06:09:41 <shachaf> I know.
06:09:50 <shachaf> That's why I took the sentence fragment and put it in quotation marks.
06:10:02 <pikhq> Just life history making it understandable.
06:10:04 <kmc> i don't think masturbation solves the lack of sex problem, if that was implied above
06:10:23 <pikhq> kmc: I implied we could fuck, for what it's worth. :P
06:10:46 <Bike> [hash]esoteric should have a museum guide tour, where you plug your headphones into a cheap ipod or whatever and they talk about pikhq's Blue Period
06:10:52 <kmc> who's the we there
06:11:03 <pikhq> Bike: Blue period?
06:11:15 <pikhq> Ah, this is an art reference.
06:11:23 * coppro needs to get over the fact that being a semipublic figure means having to act like one
06:11:34 <shachaf> @quote edwardk.*blue
06:11:34 <lambdabot> shachaf says: 3.0 is an edwardk phase, not just a version number. It's like Picasso's Blue Period.
06:11:36 <pikhq> coppro: Wait, you're semipublic?
06:11:37 <kmc> you're a semi-public figure?
06:11:40 <kmc> efb
06:11:44 <kmc> semipubic figure
06:12:01 <coppro> pikhq: student politician who actually does shit
06:12:47 <pikhq> Semipubic then.
06:12:48 <kmc> this channel doesn't talk about sex very often
06:12:52 <kmc> i like it
06:12:57 <kmc> the change of pace I mean
06:13:11 <shachaf> change of topic, anyway
06:13:15 <pikhq> Sex is pretty awesome.
06:13:19 <shachaf> seems like the usual #esoteric pace
06:13:19 <kmc> indeed
06:13:48 <shachaf> Keith Johnstone suggested that the "speed" of a scene is related to the rate at which new ideas are introduced rather than the rate that things are "happening".
06:13:51 <coppro> tip: vary the pace for a more overall pleasing experience
06:13:56 <kmc> :D
06:13:56 <shachaf> ...Or something along those lines.
06:14:32 <coppro> pikhq: I have public figure aspirations, though, so...
06:14:51 <pikhq> Ah, so a gay trist would be a bad thing.
06:14:52 <pikhq> Alas.
06:14:58 <coppro> this isn't the USA
06:15:09 <coppro> nobody cares if you had a gay trist
06:15:28 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:15:36 <Sgeo_> Would it be at all sane to attempt to use Visual Studio on EC2?
06:15:38 <pikhq> To Canada, to finally have sex with a guy. :P
06:15:54 <coppro> it's a pretty badly kept secret that a current cabinet minister fathered a child with another MP's secretary
06:16:37 <pikhq> Least I've got some experience with cock.
06:16:37 <coppro> and it's actually more dangerous to bring it up than it is for him
06:16:48 <coppro> (politically, I mean)
06:18:02 <kmc> cock experience eh
06:18:20 <pikhq> Yuh.
06:18:58 -!- Bike has joined.
06:19:00 <Bike> menstruation with food coloring
06:19:15 * kmc isn't sure if he correctly interpreted an offer to hook up with pikhq, above, but wouldn't be against it if we met each other in person and found each other attractive and so forth
06:19:19 <kmc> Bike: what
06:19:32 <Bike> blue period.
06:19:38 <kmc> c_c
06:19:55 <coppro> Bike: suddenly picasso makes a whole lot more sense
06:19:57 <pikhq> kmc: It was mostly joking, but wouldn't be against it if we met each other in person and found each other attractive and so forth.
06:20:01 <kmc> yay!
06:20:28 <kmc> also is it ok if my girlfriend watches
06:20:39 <coppro> man
06:20:42 <Bike> really when i think of periods in art i think of goya's "black", or "totally fucked up" period
06:20:48 <pikhq> Is it ok if my girlfriend watches? :P
06:20:53 <kmc> probably
06:20:57 <coppro> the english language sucks for expressing "I do not want something" as not meaning "I want not something"
06:21:01 <Bike> with he just painted on the inside of his house
06:21:04 <pikhq> She's a *bit* of a yaoi fangirl. :P
06:21:07 <Bike> on walls
06:21:14 <kmc> coppro: Marduk desires not the barren wasteland of your dessicated viscera.
06:21:19 <Bike> because a guy eating his son is something you paint on your wall
06:21:49 <kmc> pikhq: when I was in highschool a female friend made me a CD full of yaoi and yuri for my birthday
06:21:55 <kmc> it was a pretty good present :)
06:21:57 <coppro> for instance: I possess no desire to experience sexual relations with another male. I do not intrinsically have an objection to this, just that my life exprience indicates that it would likely be unenjoyable
06:21:58 <pikhq> :)
06:22:19 <pikhq> coppro: Shame, that.
06:22:43 <kmc> ....i probably could have hooked up with her, too
06:22:51 <kmc> damn this being incredibly awkward in my teenage years
06:22:53 <Bike> gay porn CD of love
06:22:55 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, but it's high school. You're awkward.
06:23:07 <coppro> pikhq: given that I find it irritating enough to deal with hormones that react to one half of the population, I'm not so sure
06:23:10 <pikhq> And I was then a "no sex before marriage" type as well.
06:23:46 <pikhq> Shame, probably could've had sex for the first time 6 years earlier.
06:23:54 <kmc> it's weird how sex is a BIG FUCKING DEAL (pun intended?) if you're not having any, and if you are, it's just like a fun thing you can do in between watching TV and going for a walk and IRC and whatever
06:23:58 <coppro> I don't think I was ever that type. Possibly because nobody told me sex and marriage were related until I took legal studies class
06:24:09 <pikhq> Fundie upbringing.
06:24:41 <coppro> (ok this is probably hyperbole, but it doesn't paint an inaccurate picture of my conceptions)
06:24:43 <Bike> i don't think sex is a big deal to me and i'm not having any. possibly this is because i've never had any? and also aren't like sixteen any more.
06:24:56 <coppro> ^ except for the never had any bit
06:25:07 <coppro> tbh I care much more about the emotional codependency in a relationship than the sex
06:25:38 * Bike says, while flipping between porn and Darwin
06:26:00 * kmc started college at 16, had a kind of disastrous relationship right away, and then spent a few years being celibate by choice
06:26:20 <Bike> man how do you people get into school so ea- wait i already asked you
06:26:35 <pikhq> Bike: I'm 23 and still haven't graduated college.
06:26:37 <pikhq> Happy? :)
06:26:49 <kmc> btw if you are wondering why i'm over-sharing, here is the answer: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw2J2mP2J_Q/TjwFd47dumI/AAAAAAAAABk/Cw5kqVwjvDQ/s1600/kraken_rum.png
06:26:49 <Bike> well played
06:26:50 <coppro> Bike: I could have if I'd wanted to
06:26:53 <coppro> people talked me out of it
06:26:57 <coppro> they were right
06:27:01 <shachaf> pikhq: i still haven't started college hth
06:27:03 <shachaf> should i do it
06:27:18 <Bike> the kraken put a beast in your belly? is this like, some kind of bestial unbirthing thing
06:27:21 <pikhq> kmc: Meh.
06:27:26 <coppro> shachaf: a) what is your current profession b) what do you want your profession to be?
06:27:42 <Bike> oh speaking of fucking, i hope you all know about https://twitter.com/voidsexts
06:28:22 <coppro> kmc: you don't appear to be oversharing?
06:28:24 <shachaf> coppro: a) none, exactly b) not quite sure
06:28:36 <coppro> shachaf: get a liberal arts degree
06:28:38 <coppro> NEXT, PLEASE
06:28:38 <Bike> apparently in The Old Days these things would start with "Dear Penthouse Playhouse" or whatever
06:28:48 <kmc> haha
06:28:48 <coppro> ahaha
06:28:53 <Bike> i don't know how porn mags work. i think there are bunnies involved
06:28:54 <pikhq> kmc: C'mon, we've not even gone into notable levels of kink. :P
06:29:40 * coppro wishes he had a magic hormone off button
06:29:51 <shachaf> coppro: i think you would die
06:29:53 <kmc> there are drugs that reduce sex drive
06:29:58 <kmc> some of them have unfortunate side effects
06:29:58 <Bike> WP:NOTABLE#kinkiness
06:30:01 <pikhq> Spironolactone?
06:30:03 <shachaf> hormones are p. important
06:30:14 <pikhq> (note, do not actually recommend this)
06:30:49 <Bike> last time i mentioned sex suppressant drugs fiora half seriously mentioned wanting to take them. life is weird
06:30:57 <pikhq> Huh.
06:31:03 <Bike> antisexers
06:31:10 <Bike> desexerizers
06:31:21 <shachaf> Did Fiora go away forever because of me?
06:31:22 <pikhq> Well I'm taking a drug that sometimes *has* that as a side effect...
06:31:25 <kmc> SSRIs reduce sexual function but I think they don't reduce sexual desire, which is unfortunate
06:31:33 <Bike> shachaf: Probably
06:31:38 <shachaf> :-(
06:31:42 <pikhq> kmc: Oh, hmm.
06:31:42 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, it came up because I was talking about SSRIs, I think
06:31:55 <pikhq> Wouldn't know though, cause I totally have not had that effect.
06:31:58 <Bike> and the whole "occasionally permanently destroys your sex drive" bit
06:32:02 <kmc> i've never taken them but my friend described masturbating all day and never being able to finish
06:32:06 <kmc> which sounds hellish
06:32:11 <Bike> :|
06:32:25 <pikhq> I've not had any notable change, aside from orgasm being more pleasurable.
06:32:31 <kmc> :)
06:32:32 <Bike> I think I"ve heard similar stories from people on HRT.
06:32:48 <shachaf> do you have any nonsex things to overshare about
06:32:50 <shachaf> imo that would be more interesting
06:32:52 <kmc> despite my well-known hobbies I haven't had much sex under the influence, as of yet
06:33:01 <kmc> gotta fix this
06:33:02 <pikhq> IIRC my girlfriend had that for a couple months.
06:33:11 <pikhq> Just a relative lack of interest in sex.
06:33:11 <Bike> Well, I feel lonely and emotionless, and am making up for this with hyperrationalization.
06:33:16 <kmc> shachaf: uh, I have a slightly deformed right pinky toe?
06:33:22 <coppro> ok actually I lied
06:33:29 <kmc> it doesn't really affect my life in any way other than astounding people at parties
06:33:30 <Bike> kmc: I hear it's addictive?? something something Go Ask Alice
06:33:35 <pikhq> Now she's back up to ludicrously high sex drive.
06:33:38 <kmc> go ask alice when she's ten feet tall
06:33:43 <coppro> the best part about being in a relationship is not having to deal with not being in a relationship
06:33:46 <coppro> if that makes any sense
06:33:51 <coppro> my sex drive is pretty low
06:34:01 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=371
06:34:08 * pikhq has chafed his penis before. To give you an idea.
06:34:19 <kmc> eek
06:34:22 <Bike> kmc: Fun Bio Fact: in Descent of Man darwin talks about people with weird vestigial muscles, and people with muscular control of their scalp throwing books off their heads to win bets
06:34:28 <pikhq> By the way, that is a terrible experience, would not repeat.
06:34:41 * Bike notes "no dick chafing" in copybook
06:34:42 <coppro> I'm not very rubbable in general
06:34:45 <kmc> sounds like you need a friend to gently rub lotion on your penis
06:34:53 <coppro> dunno why
06:35:41 <Bike> shachaf: whoa is this why you do "the quoting thing"
06:36:02 <shachaf> Bike: what you mean that comic
06:36:09 <Bike> y
06:36:11 <shachaf> Bike: i don't know i do it because mnoqy
06:36:26 <shachaf> Bike: and mnoqy may well do it because of super mega but probably it precedes 371
06:36:30 <shachaf> i don't know about mnoqy
06:36:34 <shachaf> "not a mnoqy expert"
06:37:06 <Bike> mnoqologist
06:37:20 <shachaf> mnqoy
06:37:26 * pikhq is honestly quite glad HRT didn't do much to his girlfriend's sex drive. Wheeeee.
06:37:37 <shachaf> the real mnqoy
06:37:40 <Bike> yeah i think it was the early stages
06:37:46 <Bike> lots of antiandrogens or something
06:38:02 <pikhq> Ah.
06:38:07 <pikhq> Makes sense.
06:38:29 <pikhq> Knocking out the original sex hormones, but the replacement isn't doing anything yet.
06:38:33 <Bike> right.
06:38:41 * Bike not that interested in chemical side, just watches youtube videos of penises being surgically deconstructed
06:39:10 * pikhq can't stomach much of that.
06:39:38 <pikhq> Familiar, sure, but... yeah
06:39:44 <shachaf> Bike: Surgical deconstruction? How about literary deconstruction?
06:39:46 <Bike> you're not alone there, that's for sure
06:40:00 <Bike> shachaf: literary theory needs less dicks imo
06:40:00 <pikhq> Neovaginoplasty is something I'd prefer to black box. :P
06:40:20 <coppro> pikhq: transgender or ?
06:40:29 <pikhq> coppro: I'm cis. My *girlfriend* is trans.
06:40:31 <Bike> pikhq: i was more willing to watch it than several people who were considering undergoing it. possibly i am freakish
06:40:34 <coppro> pikhq: that's what I meant
06:40:39 <pikhq> Yeah.
06:40:56 <pikhq> Bike: Hah.
06:41:16 <coppro> Bike: the fact that you are not considering undergoing it probably makes you more likely to be willing to watch
06:41:35 <Bike> shrug.
06:41:35 <coppro> I've dissected things before and not minded really but I don't really want to watch that I don't think
06:41:39 <pikhq> coppro: Not really.
06:41:52 <Bike> i really found it amazing. I didn't know we were at a point in medicine where we could do that.
06:41:56 <pikhq> I managed to invalidate the mirror neuron theory of autism that way. :P
06:41:56 <coppro> I should really be asleep
06:41:58 <coppro> (alone)
06:42:02 <Bike> bye
06:42:11 <Bike> I was so amazed that I posted it on my blog and got like three people screaming at me to take it away
06:42:30 <pikhq> Bike: I'll admit it is pretty fascinating.
06:42:46 <pikhq> I'm just also squemish.
06:42:48 <Bike> i mean don't get me wrong, if someone doesn't want to watch it, i can understand that
06:43:07 <Bike> at the end of the day, it's still a penis being ripped inside out.
06:43:14 <pikhq> ... And trypanophobic.
06:43:21 <Bike> oogh.
06:43:35 <shachaf> hey Bike if you ever run for president are you going to use the slogan "I Like Bike"
06:43:51 <pikhq> I can basically deal with it up until the needle goes in, and then I faint.
06:43:59 <Bike> no, i'll use the slogan "We can Lick Dick" to misdirect them.
06:44:14 <coppro> pikhq: you haven't received an HPV vaccination then, I assume? That one's really weird
06:44:17 <pikhq> Poor doctors must get a heart attack every time that happens, figuring I've got an allergic reaction to the injection.
06:44:22 <pikhq> coppro: I have not.
06:44:28 <coppro> the needle doesn't hurt it all
06:44:36 <pikhq> Probably should, but haven't.
06:44:39 <coppro> it's a really mild prick
06:44:41 <Bike> do you tell them beforehand?
06:44:44 <pikhq> Bike: Yes.
06:44:48 <coppro> the vaccine itself hurts like a bitch though
06:44:54 <Bike> "yo this procedure is some freaky shit and imma faint, just fyi"
06:45:21 <pikhq> And assure them I'm fine afterwards when I'm conscious but dealing with incredibly low blood pressure.
06:45:23 <coppro> pikhq: probably a good idea. No idea how much money that would cost you down in murrica though
06:45:31 <pikhq> Like "my vision is gone" low blood pressure.
06:45:42 <pikhq> coppro: "Mom's willing to pay for it" cost, so.
06:45:51 <coppro> pikhq: that's a pretty good cost
06:46:08 <Bike> that's pretty low blood pressure.
06:46:15 <pikhq> Yup.
06:46:27 <Bike> i think the only time i've fainted during a medical procedure was the first time i donated blood. not a pleasant experience no
06:46:41 <pikhq> Yeah, um, I'm not even trying to donate blood.
06:46:44 <Bike> not really an unpleasant experience either since i wasn't awake for most of it, but
06:46:45 * kmc is too gay to donate blood, to the Red Cross at least
06:46:48 <Bike> oh, obviously.
06:46:55 <pikhq> Though for the moment I think technically *could*.
06:46:58 <pikhq> Trying to fix that though.
06:47:01 <pikhq> :P
06:47:02 <coppro> hh
06:47:04 <coppro> *hah
06:47:07 <Bike> need more gay sex and tats
06:47:15 <pikhq> Tats, oh fuck no.
06:47:24 <coppro> pikhq: wait. your girlfriend is mtf or ftm?
06:47:28 <pikhq> coppro: MTF.
06:47:41 <pikhq> Hence "girlfriend", not "boyfriend".
06:47:44 <Bike> if you get a tattoo they make you wait like, 18 months I think.
06:48:11 <Bike> make sure your love of MoM doesn't seep into the blood
06:48:23 <coppro> pikhq: that's what I figured. but then aren't you currently ineligible?
06:48:41 <pikhq> coppro: The policies on trans people are basically "uh?"
06:48:48 <coppro> haha
06:48:54 <Bike> yeah i was gonna say, i wouldn't even ask the red cross about that
06:49:32 <Bike> every time i've donated they've asked me my gender again. i can't tell if it's like, trying to be inclusive, or they're just really paranoid, or what.
06:49:40 <coppro> Bike: gender or sex?
06:49:47 <coppro> pikhq: I figured you were referring to her sex when talking about "trying to fix that"
06:50:00 <pikhq> coppro: Nah, more saying "I need to find a guy to fuck".
06:50:00 <coppro> but that would mean ftm which didn't make sense since you call her a girlfriend
06:50:04 <Bike> uh... i don't remember if they even make that distinction.
06:50:12 <coppro> pikhq: ah
06:50:58 <Bike> It probably just says "male or female"? maybe i'll pay more attention next time.
06:51:24 <kmc> i assume from 'ludicrously high sex drive' that you and your girlfriend are happy with the results of surgery? if that's not a super weird question to ask
06:51:32 <pikhq> kmc: She's yet to have surgery.
06:51:41 <kmc> ah
06:51:52 <pikhq> And I brought it up, so *fair enough*. :P
06:52:05 <pikhq> It'd be weird utterly out of the blue, but in context? Yeah.
06:52:06 <Bike> pikhq is too creative to be limited to penetrative sex like mortals
06:52:27 <pikhq> Oh, there's penetrative sex. Among other things.
06:52:54 <Bike> concatenative sex, function-level sex
06:53:07 <Bike> self modifying sex
06:53:10 * coppro goes to sleep for real
06:53:11 <coppro> good night
06:53:13 <Bike> oh baby
06:53:18 <Bike> bye again
06:53:19 <coppro> Bike: non-von neumann sex hth
06:53:43 <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:54:01 <pikhq> Invertible sex.
06:55:15 <kmc> `addquote <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:55:21 <HackEgo> 1040) <Bike> can sex be liberated from the von neumann position
06:55:28 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, ATM she's still researching surgeons and such. Shit be tricky.
06:55:45 <Bike> i think my quotes paint a picture of me as being a well-programmed joke robot
06:55:56 <pikhq> And I think she still needs a second therapist to sign off on it too.
06:56:20 <pikhq> God it's all a mess.
06:56:34 <Bike> Do you still have to do that thing where you present as your gender without any help for a year?
06:56:51 <pikhq> Bike: No, that has been rejected for being complete and utter bullshit.
06:57:10 <pikhq> Some people still recommend it but this is them holding on to ancient practice.
06:57:12 <Bike> ok, well, as you know a lot of things related to transness are bullshit.
06:57:18 <pikhq> Yup.
06:57:31 <pikhq> But in this case it was explicitly rejected by the medical community as bullshit.
06:57:36 <Bike> sweet.
06:58:29 <pikhq> First therapist my girlfriend saw actually recommended that...
06:58:32 <pikhq> Yeesh.
06:58:36 <Bike> :/
06:58:56 <pikhq> Needless to say, she bolted.
06:59:28 <pikhq> And... yeah, asked a trans friend of ours advice.
06:59:41 <Bike> The Trans Underground
06:59:44 <pikhq> :P
07:02:15 <kmc> friend of mine went to Thailand for her SRS... apparently they have some of the best doctors
07:02:31 <kmc> (but also some of the terrifying cheap operations)
07:06:55 <pikhq> She's been considering it.
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07:07:29 <pikhq> Kinda scary stuff though. Really gotta find a good surgeon.
07:07:56 <kmc> yeah...
07:09:02 <pikhq> And it doesn't help that the US incentivizes surgery.
07:09:31 <pikhq> (one can't have gender on most paperwork changed sans surgery)
07:10:39 <Bike> someone i know elsewhere apparently couldn't get her gender changed on her alma mater's documents /ever/ if she couldn't get surgery by the end of some fixed period after she graduated
07:10:44 <Bike> liike what even
07:11:12 <pikhq> Some states don't let you change gender on your birth certificate ever.
07:11:20 <pikhq> Whiiich means you basically can't change your gender.
07:11:27 <pikhq> Sucks if you're not gay!
07:12:00 <pikhq> (note that marriage tends to be based on what the birth certificate says)
07:12:25 <pikhq> (yes, this means that gay marriage is *a okay* so long as one partner is trans and hasn't gotten some paperwork changed.)
07:13:04 <Bike> kafkaesque marriage
07:13:11 <kmc> ++
07:18:44 <pikhq> Shit be crazy.
07:26:45 <kmc> at least a lot of states don't care about gender for marriage anymore
07:26:51 <kmc> and more states every month :)
07:27:47 <pikhq> Quite glad 'bout that. :)
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07:39:44 <pikhq> Hmmmm. 1:39. Probably time for melatonin.
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14:32:06 <boily> good morning all, even the fternooners!
14:58:28 <coppro> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/22/blood-policy-men.html?cmp=rss&utm_source=feedly how far we've come
15:01:29 <boily> proud to be Canadian. yééééé.......... :/
15:12:15 <boily> what's wrong with blood from homosexuals? it's like filtering to not have blood from blacks or whites or yellows or blues or whatever.
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15:26:45 <elliott> boily: the idea is HIV
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15:29:18 <boily> elliott: afaik, anyone can get HIV?
15:30:30 <boily> hm. looks like testing for HIV is complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test
15:31:04 <elliott> not defending the heuristic, mind
15:32:22 <boily> that I understand. looks like the problem with tests is that you can get a very quick non-conclusive answer, but need a long time that may span months to have a solid assertion.
15:32:51 <boily> oh well. all in all, it's still some non-zero progress.
15:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, also blood from the uk is banned in most other places
15:53:43 <elliott> really
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15:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: really
15:56:14 <fizzie> Tainted UK blood, they don't want the infection to spread.
15:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> what fizzie said
15:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the risk of vcjd
15:57:34 <elliott> how... reassuring
15:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> well the thing is it's very hard to screen for
15:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> and so although afaik there haven't been any cases for ages they don't know that there aren't a bunch of carriers who are just never going to show symptoms
16:00:56 <Deewiant> There's also this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCJD#New_concerns
16:01:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:01:46 <elliott> kmc: should i learn rust
16:05:46 <oerjan> @tell bike <Bike> One way of saying it, which is misleading but oh well, is that if at every point on the earth wind was moving in only one (tangent) direction, and there are no spooky discontinuities, nowhere on earth would have no wind. <-- you mean "somewhere on earth" hth
16:05:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
16:06:47 <elliott> oerjan... we just got the report back from the doctor, and... I'm so sorry... it doesn't help
16:06:56 <elliott> they said that it hasn't helped for years
16:06:59 <oerjan> oh darn
16:07:30 <oerjan> well we can only keep praying hth
16:07:49 <Phantom_Hoover> why was bike explaining the hairy ball theorem
16:15:31 <oerjan> because he found it a hairy theorem hth
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16:22:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i think we logreaders might need an ignore feature hth
16:29:34 <oerjan> <elliott> n.b. you might have to change your name <-- mr. mcEllister may not have to change the pronunciation, though
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17:00:10 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: it was my fault. I had a mathematicese problem trying to understand hair on balls.
17:04:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Etc.).
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17:23:25 <boily> ~metar CYUL
17:23:26 <metasepia> CYUL 221700Z 15008KT 15SM OVC015 18/14 A2982 RMK SC8 SLP099 DENSITY ALT 600FT
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17:50:46 <oerjan> <kmc> shachaf: uh, I have a slightly deformed right pinky toe? <-- hm both my pinky toes have the outer part of the nail split off and sort of knobbly
17:50:52 <oerjan> hth
17:51:57 <oerjan> outer as in right part of the right one, and left part of the left one
17:52:30 <oerjan> hm i've never thought about checking if that's common
17:54:46 <oerjan> hm the google images either show obviously diseased toes or are too small to discern
17:59:59 -!- olsner has joined.
18:00:03 <olsner> hi
18:01:30 <Koen_> oerjan have you be trying to compare your toes to toes of strangers from the internet again?
18:01:46 <olsner> hmm, my modem's apparently still rebooting every 5-30 minutes, so I guess I'll be out of here pretty soon
18:01:52 <oerjan> except for the "again", yes.
18:05:09 <kmc> elliott: probably
18:05:30 <oerjan> as far as i can tell most pictures don't have such. also i don't _think_ what i have is a "lister corn" - it's not painful in any way...
18:06:15 <oerjan> maybe i should ask my doctor some time.
18:06:29 <olsner> have you posted a picture of it to reddit?
18:06:56 <oerjan> Koen_: my research of the top google image pages indicates that most people have even uglier toes than me hth
18:07:18 <oerjan> olsner: no. and i still don't have any digital camera.
18:07:22 <tswett> Kesuuntumisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut huotua varoittavana vahtina seka jatteensuojana.
18:07:28 <tswett> hth
18:07:47 <fizzie> That looks like it's missing some y's.
18:08:07 <fizzie> And diacritics, but that's usual; turning y's to u's isn't.
18:08:38 <Koen_> oerjan: either that, or people who have prettier toes than you tend to put less photos of their toes on the internet
18:08:48 <boily> a language without diacritics is not a true languagë.
18:08:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you have a scanner? Can you stick your foot in it?
18:08:56 <oerjan> Koen_: impossible!
18:09:03 <oerjan> fizzie: nope.
18:09:22 <fizzie> Given how many foot fetishists there are, I'd've thought it easy to find pictures of toes.
18:09:33 <oerjan> fizzie: google translate had some troubles with that finnish
18:09:40 <olsner> maybe you can send an analog picture to someone with internet and a digital camera or scanner
18:09:49 <fizzie> oerjan: It's supposed to be "Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensuojana", I'd think.
18:10:20 <Koen_> if you were nicolas cage you'd drive through a red light and show your toes to the camera
18:10:35 <tswett> fizzie: I think that's almost right, but that's "jätteensyöjänä" on the end.
18:10:48 <fizzie> tswett: Oh, right, that makes more sense.
18:11:01 <fizzie> tswett: I was wondering why you'd need to protect garbage, actually.
18:11:52 <tswett> Alun perin koirarodun muodosti ruhma koiria, joilla oli tiettu kauttotarkoitus.
18:11:54 <oerjan> ok that helped but GT still doesn't know what jätteensyöjänä is
18:12:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Someone who eats your garbage hth
18:12:27 <oerjan> thanks tdh
18:12:30 <fizzie> Where do all those u's come from?
18:12:42 <tswett> They were originally y's.
18:12:50 <fizzie> Yes, but why are they now u's?
18:13:22 <Deewiant> Preserves vowel harmony without äö
18:13:22 <tswett> I like u's.
18:14:14 <tswett> I wonder how expressive you could be in Finnish without using any front vowels.
18:14:59 <fizzie> U tube.
18:15:01 <oerjan> ooh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_nail_of_the_fifth_toe
18:15:32 <oerjan> i never knew i had chinese ancestry!
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18:16:05 <Koen_> please don't learn biology with wikipedia
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18:16:21 <olsner> "See also: Mongoloid race"
18:16:30 <fizzie> "After Yin Wang stabbed her in the abdomen as she tried to escape, she gave birth to two children with a scar on the small toe of the foot -- and their descendants became born with double nails on their small toes" is that really how inheriting things works?
18:16:52 <Bike> totes
18:16:52 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:17:00 <Koen_> fizzie: the knife hit the dna directly hth
18:17:41 <oerjan> except the one in that picture doesn't look knobbly...
18:18:12 <Koen_> does it look knively?
18:18:16 -!- fizzie has set topic: We drank all the throwing wine | Goal for 2013: hthiest channel of the network? | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:18:54 <Koen_> we're the happiest
18:19:03 <Bike> oops.
18:19:11 <olsner> the most hopiest that helps
18:19:43 <boily> `quote throwing wine
18:19:46 <HackEgo> No output.
18:20:21 <boily> hairiest, hambiguitest, hon-topickest.
18:20:41 <oerjan> hm *knobby, probably, there seems to be a difference
18:21:10 <Koen_> hairy toe helps?
18:21:23 <oerjan> if you say so.
18:22:13 <boily> `learn hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
18:22:17 <HackEgo> I knew that.
18:25:49 <oerjan> new hth research is proceeding at breathtaking speed
18:28:00 <oerjan> "nail knob" is apparently some kind of device
18:28:49 * oerjan gives up his research for now
18:29:49 <Koen_> happy to halt?
18:30:43 <oerjan> the little turing machine that could
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18:32:35 <ais523> aww, apport is cute
18:32:54 <ais523> I just had a failure to resume from suspend, caused by the laptop battery running out in the meantime
18:32:59 <ais523> apport somehow felt that this was its fault
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18:47:16 <fizzie> qmail is always very apologetic.
18:47:43 <fizzie> "Hi. This is the qmail-send program at here.and.there. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out."
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19:04:15 <ion> heh
19:06:50 <kmc> there are a few things that are heritable in a lamarckian way
19:07:06 <kmc> antibodies for diseases
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19:54:34 <oerjan> "This frequent relocation of our web address was done specifically to please Phantom Hoover. (We're working on a brainfuck derivative, too, to make his joy complete. Stay tuned.)"
19:54:44 <oerjan> http://catseye.tc/node/catseye.tc.html
19:57:40 <tswett> kmc: and genes?
19:58:15 <Bike> genes aren't lamarckian
19:58:17 <Bike> usually
20:01:09 <tswett> Mm, Lamarckian inheritance is apparently only things that are acquired during an organism's lifetime.
20:01:23 <Bike> yes.
20:01:33 <tswett> It's not entirely common for people to acquire genes during their lifetime.
20:01:42 <Bike> no.
20:01:54 <Bike> what you're saying has in fact been a focus of biology for over a century.
20:02:12 <tswett> Retroviruses and whatnot?
20:03:03 <Bike> retroviruses are pretty rare, and not what lamarck really had in mind; the classic example of the lamarckian idea is a giraffe's neck getting stretchier over the generations as successive mothers stretch theirs
20:05:00 <kmc> bacteria will slurp up DNA from wherever, though
20:05:01 <Bike> but there are ineritable acquired characteristics, the most obvious being from horizonal gene transfer
20:05:04 <Bike> yeah
20:05:55 <kmc> fun biology fact: C. elegans eats bacteria, so if you want to do RNA interference studies in C. elegans you can create transgenic bacteria and feed it to them
20:08:32 <Bike> "I feel like I'm in an episode of Star Trek. The PCI ROM for the video card on my PPC system is entirely full of threes. Every single byte is a three."
20:11:23 <kmc> i don't know if you can convince them to reverse transcribe that RNA though
20:11:31 <kmc> presumably you would need to feed them, like, reverse transcriptase
20:12:08 <Bike> whatever gets us attack of the giant nematodes faster
20:12:23 <kmc> we'll save earth at the 11th hour using nematophagous fungi
20:14:43 * boily pokes kmc to check if he isn't fungot in disguise
20:14:44 <fungot> boily: at the first, we typically is most welcome the new: 50,000 member on the conference of the units of the matter that the other central banks in the warrants that showed the national securities exchanges.
20:15:01 * boily pokes again. "needs to be really sure"
20:15:26 <kmc> biology is a massive global project to reverse engineer machines designed by an alien 'intelligence'
20:15:29 <kmc> pretty cool
20:15:38 <Bike> alien lack of intelligence
20:15:46 <elliott> more like bilology
20:15:51 -!- GOMADWarrior has joined.
20:15:55 <kmc> more like bikeology
20:16:15 <boily> bikes are biological. they have fluids and bones and go around.
20:16:16 <Bike> the study of making people insult biology
20:16:30 <kmc> i'm sure there are long philosophical arguments about whether evolution is intelligent
20:16:33 <elliott> bileogy
20:17:11 <Bike> kmc: biologists tend to shy away from anything that makes out evolution to be a directed, teleological process. except when they don't
20:17:19 <kmc> yeah
20:17:34 <elliott> telelological
20:18:41 <kmc> definitely evolution can't plan for the future, which is a p. important part of intelligence
20:18:57 <kmc> and this is why the abstraction boundaries in organisms are all fucked up
20:19:00 <kmc> massive technical debt imo
20:19:51 <tswett> boilogy
20:19:55 <pikhq> Oh *man*, qemu's sound emulation is glitched.
20:20:02 <Bike> "In the Theory with which we have to deal, Absolute Ignorance is the artificer, so that we may enunciate as the fundamental principle of the whole system, that IN ORDER TO MAKE A PERFECT AND BEAUTIFUL MACHINE IT IS NOT REQUISITE TO KNOW HOW TO MAKE IT. This proposition will be found, on careful examination, to express in a condensed form the essential purport of the Theory and to express in a few words all Mr Darwin's meaning; who, by a ...
20:20:08 <Bike> ... strange inversion of reasoning, seems to think Absolute Ignorance fully qualified to take the place of Absolute Wisdom in all the achievements of creative skill."
20:20:28 <pikhq> It seems like as soon as the sound card started being used, it started to fail to actually change the audio buffer out fast enough.
20:20:47 <pikhq> So I'm hearing a little bit of the Windows 95 startup sound repeated over and over.
20:20:55 <kmc> haha
20:21:00 <Bike> brian eno's hell
20:22:32 <pikhq> Well, let's see if it's just the sound emulation borked.
20:22:36 <pikhq> Yup!
20:22:45 <pikhq> Once the sound finished it went back to normal.
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21:04:38 <kmc> elliott: http://grenzgenial.com/post/2414488498/javascript-and-the-brain-why-javascript-is-the-future
21:04:55 <shachaf> It's THE BRAIN.
21:09:38 <boily> is it orange?
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21:25:46 <mnoqy> a) No types: types are stupid.
21:25:49 <mnoqy> glory be
21:26:33 <mnoqy> this this guy serious and for real
21:27:10 <mnoqy> what a bad analogy
21:27:18 <mnoqy> what a bad blog post
21:28:10 <olsner> less bad than the one about pipes, I think
21:28:27 <mnoqy> are pipes like brains too
21:28:47 <shachaf> kmc: oh that's a good article
21:30:42 <olsner> fungot: are your brain functions first class?
21:30:42 <fungot> olsner: market short to them."
21:32:52 <fizzie> fungot: Funge-98 is like a brain because it has no types, right? Also it looks all brainy.
21:32:52 <fungot> fizzie: for the complete name of slater is asking the bankruptcy. 35; and dynegy of today).
21:33:17 <boily> imnsho, fungot is the future.
21:33:17 <fungot> boily: all of the meeting on the street. slump that wasn't enough that the expiration of the market i normally do not have the balance of the my cdnow.
21:33:22 <fizzie> The dynegy of today.
21:33:34 <boily> fizzie: that's because you cdnow isn't balanced.
21:33:44 <elliott> kmc: happily that link freezes my browser
21:33:53 <kmc> \rainbow{JAVASCRIPT}
21:33:54 <elliott> as so many do these days
21:34:03 <kmc> did it also give you a seizure
21:34:16 <olsner> are there other links that can thaw your browser?
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21:42:25 <Taneb> And I'm back
21:42:28 <Taneb> Hi
21:42:38 <olsner> HELLO
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21:43:23 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I couldn't destroy the world due to RSA working.
21:43:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:43:42 <Taneb> So, how is everyone?
21:44:21 -!- abumirqaan has joined.
21:53:16 <boily> Taneb: somewhat orange, not soundly emulated, mocking biololology, and combing balls.
21:53:30 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:53:35 <Taneb> Sounds fun!
21:53:50 <Taneb> I find the hairy ball problem difficult to explain to my friends
21:54:56 -!- Bike has joined.
21:55:01 <ais523> the problem is that it's easy if you have a finite number of hairs
21:55:38 <Taneb> ais523: I generally get stuck because everyone is laughing at the name and won't take anything I say seriously for about 4 hours at least
21:55:50 <ais523> oh, I didn't even think of that angle
21:56:51 <Taneb> In other news, I tried to break RSA
21:56:55 <Taneb> Didn't get very far
21:57:19 <Taneb> Wrote a program that factorizes semiprimes sometimes
22:00:18 <Taneb> It's probably better than trial division
22:00:18 <Taneb> But there's a few edge cases it doesn't account for
22:03:05 <Taneb> It works by a half-remembered wheel factorization
22:03:05 <Taneb> And by starting around the square root of the semiprime
22:03:25 <Taneb> But nobody really cares, do they?
22:03:41 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:04:36 <Taneb> On the other hand, I used mfix in a "real"-ish situation for the first time
22:04:56 <Taneb> And the C pre-processor
22:14:07 <Taneb> So I guess I learnt something!
22:14:50 <kmc> what did you use mfix for?
22:15:05 <kmc> and did you consider using recursive do
22:15:09 <kmc> or is that not the same thing
22:15:27 <olsner> when he said mfix I just assumed he used it via recursive do
22:15:42 <Taneb> No, I actually used mfix
22:15:46 <olsner> iirc it's all sugar for mfix
22:16:26 <Taneb> I used it so that I can have in a thread terminator a way to kill all the other threads
22:17:50 <Taneb> Because to kill all the threads I need their ThreadIds, but to get the ThreadIds, I need the terminator (finalizer? function that's run when the thread is about to terminate) which includes killing all the threads
22:20:45 <olsner> hmm, sounds like an odd problem
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22:23:04 <Taneb> olsner: I have 8 threads each checking different numbers for a solution
22:23:12 <Taneb> I know only one of them will find a solution
22:25:35 <Taneb> So that when one of them finds a solution, it kills all the others
22:25:35 <Taneb> Does that make sense?
22:26:02 <olsner> don't you get a thread id when you fork a thread or something? that would make sense
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23:15:50 <kmc> you do
23:16:19 <kmc> :t forkIO
23:16:21 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `forkIO'
23:16:25 <kmc> well, fuck you lambdabot
23:16:38 <kmc> forkIO :: IO () -> IO ThreadId
23:17:05 <shachaf> @ty Control.Concurrent.forkIO
23:17:07 <lambdabot> IO () -> IO GHC.Conc.Sync.ThreadId
23:17:19 <kmc> great name
23:17:23 <Bike> concsync
23:17:31 <lambdabot> h8r
23:17:44 <kmc> i saw two mourning doves!
23:17:52 <kmc> they were kind of small. they might be young
23:17:58 <shachaf> i bought two cadbury flakes!
23:18:01 <elliott> what were they mourning
23:18:32 <kmc> who knows man
23:18:37 <kmc> probably nothing
23:18:41 <kmc> they're birds
23:18:52 <shachaf> whoa dude
23:18:57 <kmc> i don't know why rock doves outnumber mourning doves like 100x here
23:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> rock doves aka pigeons
23:21:46 <kmc> yes
23:22:04 <kmc> maybe mourning doves are less suited to eating trash
23:22:29 <kmc> maybe it's that rock doves are bigger and more aggressive and will scare them off
23:23:31 <shachaf> rock doves rock hth
23:23:43 <kmc> tdnh
23:25:21 <Sgeo_> Gregor, do you have an opinion about GeneralUser?
23:25:43 <pikhq> Maybe there's a reason the doves are mourning.
23:26:16 <Sgeo_> I should fix my apt
23:29:44 <Sgeo_> Things I shouldn't do: Generate a file full of locations of decade-old objects that anyone can destroy if they get their hands on the location
23:30:10 <Sgeo_> Well, I've been thinking of generating the file and giving it to trustworthy groups
23:31:19 <elliott> wh
23:32:22 <Sgeo_> Non-paying users in Active Worlds don't get accounts, but they can build. Their builds, given account number 0, can be deleted by anyone.
23:32:35 <Sgeo_> There are such builds that are over a decade old.
23:33:05 <Bike> yeah that would be way less dorky and silly a thing to say if you meant real objects
23:33:05 <Sgeo_> I can't help wondering what the oldest is, can't help wondering where some of these places are, secret tourist builds, etc.
23:35:39 <elliott> Bike: wait you thought it was about real objects?
23:37:05 <Bike> for like half a second
23:37:29 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4 (DS9 spoilers)
23:37:43 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do with my second cadbury flake
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23:47:08 <Sgeo_> "Password generation and encryption can sometimes take more than 30 minutes. Please wait at least 15 minutes after launching an instance before trying to retrieve the generated password."
23:47:11 <Sgeo_> Grah that's annoying
23:48:30 <kmc> http://flux-labs.com/2013/03/duplicating-house-keys-using-a-3d-printer/
23:48:31 <kmc> fuck yeah
23:48:32 <kmc> key hacking
23:48:49 <kmc> if you have the capability to manufacture ~50 keys then you can easily escalate privileges from a single-door key to a master key
23:49:03 <kmc> that's not in the article, but it's a true fact
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23:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> wow
23:52:56 <shachaf> <ion> Proposal: rename "Monad" to "Burrito"
23:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> an actually useful application of 3d printers
23:58:33 <kmc> my friend has a 3D printer and has printed a variety of useful household shit with it
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