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00:41:25 <zzo38> Do you know if the Linux kernel sends information of virtual console and login status to the POST display? Such thing might be useful for security purpose, possibly.
00:41:25 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:45:40 <Jafet> I don't think you can login on linux while the POST is still running.
00:47:24 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes, but I think POST messages are just sent to one of the I/O ports on the PC, they just won't be displayed on the screen unless the POST is running, or something like that, isn't it?
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00:52:46 <Sgeo> Will he be back when I'm here?
00:52:50 <Sgeo> That seems unlikely
00:56:47 <shachaf> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1949537745/armikrog
00:58:44 <Bike> oh is that what that is.
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01:09:13 <shachaf> hey mnoqy what do you think of CoYoSet
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01:09:51 <ajf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
01:10:09 <ajf> somehow I managed to miss the Discussion tab on my language
01:12:59 <shachaf> elliott: imo https on esolangs plz thx hth
01:13:41 <shachaf> ajf: I think we should have https: support on esolangs.org.
01:13:56 <ajf> what's the point of it on such a site?
01:14:03 <Bike> PUT A/ This now reads "PRINT Z" <-- i don't get this
01:14:23 <shachaf> ajf: Well, people log in with passwords and things?
01:14:43 <shachaf> Also, people know what esolangs I'm reading about.
01:15:08 <shachaf> I may not want my interest in Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download to be public.
01:15:52 <kmc> without HTTPS, not only can people read whan you're seeing, they can tamper with it in arbitrary ways
01:15:58 <kmc> including taking any action you're allowed to take
01:16:59 <shachaf> I don't have an account so I'm less concerned about that.
01:17:32 <kmc> so when is the interview?
01:18:13 <shachaf> I'm also not that concerned about people tampering with the traffic and showing me wrong esolang information.
01:18:15 <ajf> Bike: let me explain
01:18:39 <ajf> that should say "PUT Z"
01:18:41 <kmc> what time?
01:18:46 <Bike> ok, that makes sense
01:18:58 <Bike> i was looking for alterations of u or t in vain
01:19:38 <Bike> might be nice if you made it a bit less encoding-dependent by allowing quoting characters
01:20:11 <ajf> encoding-dependent?
01:20:15 <Bike> DEFINE A TO '/' instead of DEFINE A TO FORTYSEVEN, though then you lose some of the ancient charm
01:20:26 <ajf> but it's not C
01:20:35 <ajf> it deliberately uses ASCII
01:20:43 <Bike> you'll like zzo
01:20:48 <ajf> it's compatible with ISO 464
01:20:51 <ajf> strictly speaking
01:21:28 <Bike> should be an esolang compliant with "Rolling bearings -- Radial bearings with locating snap ring -- Dimensions and tolerances" imo
01:22:12 <ajf> I'd really like to see if someone smarter than me can find a means to write real programs in this thing
01:22:16 <Bike> hm, i could as about the difference between ASCII and this ISO, or i could not do that and remain blissfully ignorant
01:23:36 <kmc> 'The original version (ISO 646 IRV) differed from ASCII only in that in code point 0024, ASCII's dollar sign ($) was replaced by the international currency symbol (¤). The final 1991 version of the code ISO 646:1991... is identical to ASCII."
01:23:46 <kmc> you know who proposed switching to ¤? communists
01:24:24 <Bike> ajf: maybe your 'author reflections' should go in the discussion page?
01:24:47 <kmc> also there are a bunch of "national variants" of ISO 646, but I don't think they're part of ISO 646 itself, but ISO 646 does at least specify certain characters that have to be there ("Invariant subset")
01:25:18 <kmc> C digraphs/trigraphs exist so that you can write C programs in a national variant using only the invariant subset
01:25:32 <Bike> so the rest of the characters may or may not be used in valid deviating percolator programs
01:25:58 <kmc> somehow they thought that 'int main() ä å' was less readable than 'int main() ??< ??>'
01:26:24 <shachaf> when is C getting pentagraphs
01:33:23 <zzo38> kmc: perhaps so that they will always be displayed and printout the same on different computers
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01:36:49 <zzo38> The TV caption set also is mostly ASCII but with a few differences. Digi-RGB-Plus also uses a superset of the TV caption set (the added stuff isn't printable characters though).
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01:38:51 <kmc> what's the TV caption set? i know it has ♫
01:39:27 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is one of the things it has. But you can look it up in Wikipedia or something; I do not entirely remember at this time.
01:40:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608#Characters
01:41:43 <kmc> sorry, ♪ not ♫
01:42:09 -!- kmc has set topic: ♪ LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc ♪ | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
01:42:39 <zzo38> Yes, now the TOPIC message is better. Now make it into actual music.
01:42:48 <kmc> i can't compose music
01:43:16 <zzo38> (One format for such a thing is "ANSI music" which makes MML in ANSI escape codes, although I don't know of any programs that will play ANSI music.)
01:47:07 <zzo38> Music Macro Language
01:56:00 <zzo38> quintopia: Somewhat.
01:56:30 <kmc> zzo38 can famicompose
01:56:43 <Lumpio-> Is that like posing with a famicom
01:57:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Then you will need some .NSF player program.
01:57:36 <kmc> i wasn't kidding that ¤ was proposed by communists
01:57:44 <kmc> by 1991 the communists had bigger things to worry about
01:57:47 <Bike> which communists
01:57:54 <kmc> don't remember
01:57:59 <zzo38> kmc: I didn't expect you do be kidding, but I also don't expect that to be particularly relevant.
01:58:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you leave yesterday because I was badgering you?
01:58:31 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it was because I was sleeping.
01:58:42 <kmc> "Highly dubious since almost all the Communist nations use Cyrillic script" not really true
01:59:04 <zzo38> http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
01:59:23 <Bike> kmc: what, who the heck wrote that
01:59:32 <kmc> someone on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACurrency_(typography)
01:59:34 <Bike> "some foo' on wikipedia"
01:59:51 <Bike> chinese written in cyrillic is scary
01:59:55 <kmc> haha i bet
02:00:31 <Lumpio-> yeah but communist == russian no?
02:00:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillization_of_Chinese
02:00:57 <Bike> I guess it's just as scary as Romanization of chinese, really
02:01:21 <Bike> and without the ridiculous baggage of postal map
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02:35:12 <shachaf> kmc: came on can't you tell me how to crack the hash and call it a day?
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03:10:21 <kmc> 3 Weird Old Hash-Cracking Tricks
03:13:50 <copumpkin> can u decrytp my md5 password i forgot it
03:14:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: we don't need your parodies, we have the real thing in ##crypto
03:20:24 <Sgeo> That sounds entertaining, I should sit there and watch
03:20:34 <shachaf> Sgeo............................................................
03:27:27 <copumpkin> what was that story you keep bugging me to read?
03:27:34 <copumpkin> I have decided to get it over with
03:28:05 <shachaf> The PDF was replaced with a new PDF.
03:29:21 <shachaf> This suspicious Russian website seems to have a copy.
03:29:50 <shachaf> (It's also in a book. I have either one or two copies of the book.)
03:29:52 <shachaf> http://xn----7sbb3aiknde1bb0dyd.xn--p1ai/index.php?id=78642
03:29:57 <shachaf> Wow, that's one suspicious URL.
03:31:08 <shachaf> Those tend to be up to no good.
03:31:17 <shachaf> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=glacierpeak.sno.wednet.edu/teachers/bjuhl/docs/Soph%2520English/Second%2520Semester/Alienation,%2520Tolerance,%2520Cyrano/Related%2520Poems,%2520Articles,%2520Short%2520Stories,%2520Etc/Liking%2520What%2520You%2520See%2520Portrait%2520Version.doc
03:31:26 <kmc> ##crypto has surprisingly little of the thing we were just complaining about
03:33:01 <kmc> shachaf: cool
03:33:49 <kmc> читать-онлайн.рф
03:33:58 <kmc> read-online
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03:35:01 <shachaf> Why did clarku.edu change their welcome/placement/pdf/reading.pdf? :-(
03:35:06 <shachaf> (I have the feeling this story isn't actually meant to be floating around on the Internet.)
03:35:26 <kmc> maybe they changed the reading for the placement exam?!?
03:35:39 <shachaf> kmc: Yes. I meant why they changed that.
03:35:42 <shachaf> (But maybe the net result is that people buy more copies of the book!)
03:47:31 <kmc> can you obfuscate Latin letters using Punycode?
03:47:41 <kmc> sort of analogous to overlong UTF-8
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03:54:33 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but I suppose if it exist it would be useful for making coding of ASCII characters that aren't allowed in domain names, or to make them case sensitive.
03:58:55 <zzo38> It doesn't seems so; Punycode can only encode code points starting at 128. However, it might be possible to encode numbers outside of the Unicode range.
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04:47:10 <kmc> shachaf: your name sounds like the russian word for "cabinet", I guess?
04:47:45 <kmc> i suppose so
04:47:55 <shachaf> The ch is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
04:48:06 <kmc> some day I should learn what all of those are
04:48:16 <shachaf> There's a Play button on that page!
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05:17:17 <kmc> what was that science fiction novel / set of stories / something that I was told here to read
05:17:40 <shachaf> You mean the book that story came from? Or an unrelated book?
05:18:32 <kmc> no some other book
05:19:05 <kmc> it was a while ago and i don't have other information :'(
05:19:23 <kmc> in one of the first chapters the aliens send information on how to do FTL communication
05:23:24 <kmc> (but I should also read Stories of Your Life and Others, yes)
05:23:56 <shachaf> Maybe oerjan will remember since he logreads.
05:28:46 <zzo38> The first four astrological signs have the same letters as the DNA.
05:29:15 <zzo38> I just noticed this now.
05:29:23 <Bike> Where's uracil?
05:29:53 <zzo38> Uracil is used with RNA, not DNA, isn't it?
05:30:34 <kmc> shachaf: well, anyway, what else should I read
05:30:52 <kmc> i could try to download some smullyan ebooks
05:30:53 <kmc> which ones
05:31:12 <shachaf> do you want "philosophical" or "puzzle" or "academic" or what
05:31:56 <kmc> philosophical i think
05:32:40 <zzo38> I think this correspondence is a strange coincidence, isn't it?
05:32:50 <Bike> yeah but rna is important man
05:33:09 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, it is important, but not relevant to what I am saying.
05:36:10 <shachaf> kmc: _The Tao Is Silent_, _This Book Needs No Title_, _5000 B.C._
05:36:32 <shachaf> At least those are three main ones I read. I like them.
05:37:27 <zzo38> I have wanted to get some books from Smullyan but I don't have any, yet.
05:37:36 <shachaf> also i think i told you you should read _Impro_ by Keith Johnstone
05:38:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I didn't find it at the store, yet, but perhaps I can find it in a different store; I will try again later.
05:39:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Perhaps you can find it on the Internet.
05:43:28 <kmc> shachaf: and which one first?
05:44:05 <shachaf> The order I gave is reasonable.
05:44:37 <shachaf> I think I read the second one first. I don't know that it matters much.
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07:42:27 <kmc> do not know
07:42:45 <kmc> what about vanna and vomma
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08:00:08 <shachaf> (as what's-'is-name would say)
08:01:07 <kmc> ååååååååååååååååååååååål
08:06:48 <cpressey> <Sgeo> Was jsvine the reporter? <-- yes, and presumably still is, unless what he read in here made him want to ragequit his job
08:07:22 <shachaf> cpressey: People who are not in #esoteric don't exist.
08:07:27 <shachaf> Why do you think we want to keep you here?
08:07:46 <cpressey> see, there's that solipsism thing again
08:08:01 <shachaf> I think *all* of us here in #esoteric exist.
08:08:05 <shachaf> And we're all different people.
08:08:46 <cpressey> i wonder if philosophers have a word for that one though
08:08:49 <fizzie> "This is the kind of people I have to interact with, because of my job? *ragequits*"
08:13:49 <cpressey> maybe i should just abort this line of inquiry
08:15:49 <cpressey> my actual question is something more like: one of my pet peeves is the phrase "post-PC world" because I don't think programmers will stop using PCs any time soon (mainly for the dual monitors amirite) and so it's a silly phrase but maybe we'll just start calling non-portable computers "workstations" again and everything will be OK
08:16:12 <shachaf> I thought "PC" meant "IBM PC compatible".
08:17:02 <cpressey> i don't think people who use the phrase "post-PC world" are thinking quite that specifically about the term
08:17:36 <cpressey> and i didn't get the impression "post-PC world" == "omg Apple won"
08:18:28 <shachaf> No, it's "omg ARM computers won"
08:19:46 <cpressey> the context i've seen it in, it seemed more about mobile devices... and if those include laptops, then ok, sure, I can develop software on a netbook; but i've never tried developing software on anything smaller -- i'm sure it's possible, but i'm not sure anyone'd want to
08:21:16 <cpressey> oh, Steve Jobs apparently coined/popularized that phrase. so maybe i've got it entirely wrong
08:22:06 <cpressey> "[Jobs] said that PCs are going to be "like trucks" in that they'll still be around and useful for certain work, but only a smaller percentage of the users will need one." ok, that's actually sane.
08:22:31 <cpressey> i still think we should go back to calling them workstations, though
08:25:28 <fizzie> "The IEEE will accept: any IBM-PC (or 100% compatible) disk format: 3.5-in/720k/l.44 Mb" they're very modern over there.
08:26:08 <fizzie> (The "IBM PC" mention reminded me of reading that a while ago.)
08:27:20 <fizzie> And I think we should start calling them workhorses.
08:27:35 <fizzie> There's probably a plethora of horse-related slang vocabulary that could be adapted.
08:30:49 <cpressey> hmmm, bridle, stirrups, feedbag... well, i know i've worked in cubicle-less environments where i would've really have liked to wear a set of blinders, might that count?
08:31:17 <cpressey> headphones look less silly but they only mask out aural noise
08:32:00 <kmc> i don't like this world because i don't want the line between people who make programs and people who merely use them to be so sharp
08:32:50 <kmc> in apple's world you have to pay another thousand bucks for the machine that can make programs *and* you have to run all the programs you make by apple first
08:33:35 <kmc> it's true that most people will never make a program, but many of the people who do make programs didn't set out to do so in a spend-a-thousand-bucks way; they just stumbled into it here or there
08:34:17 <cpressey> kmc: i understand the feeling, but also, there's that whole "division of labour" thing.
08:34:51 <kmc> imo delegating the ability to write programs to someone else is like delegating the ability to read to someone else
08:35:11 <Jafet> What about the ability to read programs
08:35:13 <kmc> but also, like I said, I'm fine with the division of labor, I just don't think the divide should be so entrenched
08:36:15 <Jafet> Reverse Engineering And Debugging
08:36:35 <olsner> before you can read programs, someone needs the ability to write programs that can be read
08:36:50 <Jafet> Actually, software engineering is a bit unusual in that it is unregulated
08:36:58 <Jafet> Most other fields of engineering are
08:37:07 <cpressey> kmc: i don't like where it's going very much either. having said that, ... i can change the oil in my car and maybe fix a flat, ...
08:37:16 <kmc> maybe I'm romanticizing the past but I thought in the 80s you could buy a 'home computer' (incl. the Apple ][!) and play some games and run some business programs and then one day, if you need to do something new, you can learn BASIC quickly and write a little BASIC program without being like "I must buy a totally different machine and also get a 4 year CS degree before I can do anything"
08:37:38 <kmc> we've sort of gone backwards in that regard
08:38:21 <olsner> Jafet: I'm not sure what engineering means but I suspect "software engineering" is not related
08:38:55 <Jafet> In the 2010s you could buy a 'home computer' (incl. a Mac!) and play some games and run some business programs and then one day, if you need to do something new, you can learn any one of ten different languages and write a program
08:39:13 <kmc> Jafet: or you can buy an iPad and not be able to do that
08:39:24 <kmc> and Apple wants a world eventually where most people only have an iPad and not a computer
08:39:30 <kmc> that's what we were talking about, that's what I'm complaining about
08:39:42 <cpressey> a software engineer is more like a ship's engineer than a professional engineer... sort of.
08:39:51 <Jafet> Why are we caring about what Apple wants
08:40:03 <kmc> Jafet: because they are one of the richest and most powerful entities in the world?
08:40:13 <kmc> why do we care what the US government wants? because it affects us
08:40:19 <cpressey> Jafet: well, a lot of people want that (Apple or no) too, it would seem
08:40:42 <cpressey> i learned recently that >50% of mobile device use actually happens *at home*
08:40:45 <Jafet> Apple isn't going to take over your PC, or probably your Mac for that matter
08:40:46 <shachaf> I,I more like an auto mechanic than a quantum mechanic
08:40:59 <kmc> most attempts I've seen to justify why programming isn't engineering end up being mystical nonsense and confirmation of existing biases in the audience
08:40:59 <cpressey> i might be misremembering the percentage but it's surprisingly large
08:41:30 <kmc> for some reason we aren't happy thinking of ourselves as engineers, we have to be special snowflake hacker wizard painter ninjas
08:41:47 <cpressey> kmc: professional engineers write proofs.
08:41:50 <Jafet> Programming is like rock music. You get a wacky idea, and pull some friends together in your garage and hope a big company decides to fund your work later on.
08:41:57 <shachaf> i'm just a regular snowflake :'(
08:41:58 <kmc> that's convenient because it justifies any personal quirks, any bizarre work style, puts the blame 100% on management for being unmanageable
08:42:34 <kmc> Jafet: except rock bands give up a lot more equity :)
08:42:57 <Jafet> Yeah, don't join a rock band (you also need actual talent)
08:42:59 <cpressey> an engineer produces a document that proves that the design meets the spec. proofs about software are hard (=expensive) so no one does them (unless lives or a whole lot of money are at stake.)
08:44:05 <Jafet> I don't think most civil engineers write proofs of anything
08:44:46 <shachaf> I was at a civil engineer student meeting thing in Berkeley.
08:44:54 <cpressey> a ship's engineer, on the other hand, keeps the ship running. which, in the internet age, is a lot like SHIT IS THAT MY PAGER
08:45:02 <shachaf> There was a presentation about startups.
08:45:25 <kmc> did they disrupt bridge building
08:45:43 <Jafet> You're in the bay area, shachaf. Everything is about startups.
08:46:16 <shachaf> They talked about Y Combinator, this competition that happens twice a year, once in Boston and once in CA. If the judges of the competition like you you get more money.
08:46:21 <kmc> maybe i shouldn't move there :/
08:46:35 <kmc> shachaf: heh
08:46:40 <kmc> not very accurate...
08:47:36 <kmc> how can we use civil engineering to solve the problems of rich 20somethings by gluing together a few existing parts
08:47:45 <shachaf> Anyway it was funny. My friend the civil engineering major suggested that I go but I didn't expect that.
08:47:53 <cpressey> CEaaS -- civil engineering as a service
08:48:17 <kmc> It's like an AIRBNB but for MUNICIPAL SEWER SYSTEMS!
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08:49:14 <shachaf> i've got a bridge to give you a special 90% local deal on
08:49:36 <kmc> It's like a KICKSTARTER but for FUNDING RAPID TRANSIT SYSTEMS!
08:49:47 <kmc> i would be all over that
08:50:01 <Jafet> Be careful kmc, you might actually get investors for that.
08:50:24 <shachaf> kmc: should caltrain be replaced with bart
08:50:43 <shachaf> lexande asked me when he was in palo alto
08:50:45 <kmc> mnoqy asks the tough questions
08:50:57 <cpressey> bart is a guy who shows up at your house with a rickshaw
08:51:10 <kmc> shachaf: this would result in it being grade separated and electrified
08:51:23 <cpressey> (or a rickroll, or a rickrain)
08:51:26 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey ask me a tough question
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08:52:26 <shachaf> hey mnoqy do you know about trains
08:52:43 <mnoqy> i've heard good things about them
08:52:58 <shachaf> have you ever been on a train
08:53:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey how's well doing
08:53:08 <mnoqy> ive been on the kiddie train at the zoo
08:55:26 <kmc> whats well
08:55:33 <cpressey> is y/y an emoticon of some sort
08:55:37 <mnoqy> now that's a tough question
08:55:58 <cpressey> looks kind of like a lizard with its hands up maybe
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08:56:49 <cpressey> help i think i've reached the edge of the terrarium y/y
08:57:22 <olsner> I'm a lizard and I give up y/y
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08:58:23 <mnoqy> help im not seeing it y7y
09:00:08 <shachaf> how doth the little mnoqydile / improve his shining tail
09:01:23 <kmc> there are at least six Linux kernel source trees in my home directory
09:02:32 <shachaf> Divine and Moral Songs for Children
09:02:43 <shachaf> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Against_Idleness_and_Mischief
09:03:03 <cpressey> mnoqy: http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4998758826115227 is as close as i've found so far
09:03:04 <kmc> must sleep now
09:03:38 <shachaf> kmc: You have a flight in, what, 10 hours?
09:04:21 <kmc> more like 11
09:04:38 <shachaf> Let's settle on 10 hours and 40 minutes.
09:05:03 <olsner> 10 hours and 60 minutes would be much more like 11
09:05:40 <shachaf> That I am taught to know / The danger I was in; / By nature, and by practice too, / A wretched slave to sin.
09:06:09 <shachaf> That I am led to see / I can do nothing well; / And whither shall a sinner flee, / To save himself from hell?
09:08:13 <shachaf> i should get copies of this book and hand it out to children
09:08:33 <fizzie> A TRAIN from Nice to Geneva cost the same amount of money (25 EUR) as the airport BUS from Lugano to Malpensa, even though the distance is like twenty times that.
09:08:56 <fizzie> That's the power of TRAINS, I believe.
09:09:16 <shachaf> fizzie: hey can i be a train
09:09:32 <fizzie> The little engine that could.
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09:34:55 <zzo38> Is '-)XX_.Xa_$-(' a proper numeric format string?
09:36:49 <FreeFull> I wonder if the ASCII subset of x86 machine code is turing-complete
09:37:13 <FreeFull> Assuming some storage device on the COM1 port with infinite storage
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09:37:57 <zzo38> FreeFull: Maybe it is, I think people have tried to do things like this sometimes.
09:40:53 <FreeFull> I know it is possible to write DOS programs using ASCII
09:41:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: Assuming you mean the printable characters of ASCII, people habitually write shellcode using that.
09:41:52 <FreeFull> But I'm also thinking it means you can't access certain instructions, call instructions with certain characters or access certain memory adresses
09:42:19 <lifthrasiir> kernel entirely written in the ASCII subset perhaps?
09:42:23 <FreeFull> fizzie: Since otherwise there wouldn't be any problem
09:42:28 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe it may be possible to make self-modifying codes or whatever
09:42:36 <fizzie> FreeFull: Well, ASCII in general would limit you to half of the instructions.
09:42:49 <fizzie> I'm reasonably certain you can access any memory address, just circuitously.
09:42:58 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: On a PC, at least, I don't think you can because the MBR code is required to end with a certain code.
09:43:01 <fizzie> Allowing for self-modifying code, probably also do anything you want.
09:43:48 <lifthrasiir> though the kernel does not have to include a boot loader
09:43:59 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, like that, and 0xAA isn't the printable ASCII range.
09:44:05 <FreeFull> fizzie: Probably through modifying the code as it's being executed
09:44:50 <fizzie> You don't need self-modification for arbitrary memory access, though; just some indirect addressing modes and general arithmetics.
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09:47:20 <fizzie> Apparently there's at least one converter for generic x86 code to purely alphanumeric ASCII.
09:48:03 <fizzie> (That one is based on self-modifying code; encodes the original code in some alphanumeric format; at runtime, decodes and executes.)
09:48:28 <fizzie> (Probably there's more than one.)
09:51:02 <shachaf> I have discovered what feather is.
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09:51:29 <fizzie> $STUPID_TIME_TRAVEL_REFERENCING_REPLY
09:51:47 <fizzie> (One is required by the conventions whenever Feather is mentioned.)
09:51:49 <shachaf> feather is feather.perl6.nl
09:52:27 <fizzie> Yes, well, one is required also when it's about some other feather altogether. Them's the rules.
09:53:37 <shachaf> fizzie sounds almost Dutch with your pronunciation
09:53:57 <shachaf> "je" is a Dutch diminutive, you know.
09:54:35 <fizzie> I know they do -je a lot.
09:55:13 <fizzie> I spent a month in the Flemish region of Belgium last summer, it was all -je.
09:55:13 <shachaf> "pietsje" is a name, for instance.
09:55:19 <shachaf> I think that's the spelling?
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09:56:27 <fizzie> Boomstammetje met bloemkool.
09:56:58 <shachaf> fizzie: What do you think of monoids?
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09:57:40 <fizzie> (According to the menu at where I was, that means: meat tree with cauliflower.)
09:58:12 <fizzie> All I know about them is the proverbial easiness.
09:59:23 <fizzie> Also from the menu: "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks," or, "Graveyard stew from the Hungarian castles, with tree trunks."
09:59:42 <fizzie> (First from the English menu; second from Google translate of the local language version.)
10:00:08 <fizzie> It was sometimes kind of hard to figure out in advance what it will be like.
10:00:25 <shachaf> fizzie: The English translation seems to be pretty good.
10:11:09 <Taneb> My path to knowing Agda has just furthered ONE MORE STEP
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab : forall {A n} (f : Fin n -> A)(i : Fin n) ->
10:11:27 <Taneb> (tabulate f ! i) == f i
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {_} {zero} _ ()
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {_} {suc n} f fzero = refl
10:11:27 <Taneb> lem-!-tab {t} {suc n} f (fsuc i) = lem-!-tab {t} {n} (f ∘ fsuc) i
10:11:47 <Taneb> It's probably awful Agda
10:13:09 <Taneb> From http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~ulfn/papers/afp08/tutorial.pdf
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate : {n : Nat}{A : Set} -> (Fin n -> A) -> Vec A n
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate {zero} f = []
10:13:23 <Taneb> tabulate {suc n} f = f fzero :: tabulate (f ∘ fsuc)
10:13:58 <shachaf> So it's a proof that (tabulate f ! i) == f i.
10:14:32 <Taneb> It's a series of racing games made by Nintendo
10:15:08 <Taneb> data Fin : Nat -> Set where
10:15:08 <Taneb> fzero : {n : Nat} -> Fin (suc n)
10:15:08 <Taneb> fsuc : {n : Nat} -> Fin n -> Fin (suc n)
10:15:32 <Taneb> That is the next exercise!
10:18:41 <shachaf> Does lem stand for lemma? I thought it stood for law of excluded middle.
10:18:50 <shachaf> Exercise: Prove the lemma of excluded middle.
10:18:56 <fizzie> I thought it stood for lemmings.
10:19:32 <Taneb> You'd have to ask the person who wrote these exercises
10:19:39 <Taneb> I'm just someone working at home at his own pace
10:21:01 <fizzie> "http://sprunge.us/MbWM <- re standing for something.
10:21:37 <fizzie> Why is there a " in my http.
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11:26:32 <shachaf> kmc: https://twitter.com/mwotton/statuses/339697660984438784
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11:56:16 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
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12:01:38 <cpressey> #whatlanguageareyouwritteninoonbotti
12:02:43 <Koen_> for two seconds I thought you were answering a question from the interview
12:04:20 <cpressey> #/etc/passwd what does that do
12:04:20 <oonbotti> root:x:0:0:Root Administrator:/root:/bin/mksh\nnobody:x:99:99:Unprivileged User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nwww:x:80:80:Web Server User:/var/www:/bin/false\nmessagebus:x:25:25:DBUS Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nhaldaemon:x:26:26:HAL Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nnaw:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/home/naw:/bin/mksh\npjotr:x:1001:1001:Linux User,,,:/home/pjotr:/bin/sh\nnortti:x:1337:1337:Linux User,,,:/home/nortti:/bin/mksh\n
12:04:50 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /etc/passwd
12:05:30 <cpressey> i guess that explains why it's its own command, but i'm still kind of at a loss as to why that functionality exists
12:05:42 <shachaf> Oops, The Interview is in, what, 8 hours?
12:05:49 <shachaf> There's no way I'll be awake in 8 hours, is there?
12:06:26 <cpressey> note, not actually suggesting that
12:07:00 <shachaf> I just bought a book by N. G. de Bruijn!
12:09:44 <cpressey> and it's all written in de Bruijn notation -- which is, admittedly, a little difficult to imagine for prose
12:10:20 <shachaf> de bruijn notation has prose and conse
12:11:24 <nortti> cpressey: because people kept trying to #cat /etc/passwd so if they really are that interested I added #/etc/passwd
12:11:37 <cpressey> conse and care and cdre and cadre
12:12:31 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /etc/shadow
12:12:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: fact faq ft let map part what
12:12:42 <cpressey> nortti: i see. following the same logic, if people kept trying to crash it, would you add a #crash command? (also, what language is it written in?)
12:13:14 <shachaf> #cat /dev/null # this'll surely crash the bot!
12:13:14 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /dev/null
12:14:22 <cpressey> #echo @tell cpressey important message from oonbotti
12:14:22 <oonbotti> @tell cpressey important message from oonbotti
12:15:01 <cpressey> lambdabot: any messages for me?
12:15:23 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:15:34 <lambdabot> oonbotti said 1m 11s ago: important message from oonbotti
12:15:34 <oonbotti> lambdabot: Can you elaborate on that?
12:15:42 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess it's time to make a bot loop.
12:15:48 <shachaf> important message from oonbotti
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12:16:00 <fizzie> A bot loop makes a lot of boops.
12:16:26 <shachaf> ?where+ test #echo ?where test
12:16:30 <oonbotti> You are not allowed to read in /bin/ls
12:21:05 <nortti> note: oonbitti doesn't call external programs outside of #cc (broken) and #exec (broken)
12:21:15 <shachaf> You should make oonbotti leave.
12:21:24 <shachaf> If there's a bot loop, I mean.
12:21:40 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ignore + oonbotti
12:21:50 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ignore - oonbotti
12:22:26 <fizzie> I had a +q all ready in the input line history, but then you made it happen just when I gave up on waiting for it to happen.
12:23:17 <shachaf> Which bot were you going to +q?
12:23:29 <shachaf> Or was I the intended target? You can still do that.
12:24:10 <fizzie> oonbotti, for reasons that I don't really know.
12:24:10 <oonbotti> fizzie: Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
12:27:18 <shachaf> oonbotti: Tell me about loom.
12:27:18 <oonbotti> shachaf: Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
12:27:26 <shachaf> oonbotti: Do you ever say anything else?
12:27:26 <oonbotti> shachaf: Perhaps the answer lies within yourself?
12:28:14 <fizzie> oonbotti: Do you always answer questions with another question?
12:28:14 <oonbotti> fizzie: Why don't you tell me?
12:28:31 <fizzie> oonbotti: Based on what I've seen so far, I think the answer is "yes".
12:28:31 <oonbotti> fizzie: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:29:35 <shachaf> oonbotti: You even answer statements with questions.
12:29:36 <oonbotti> shachaf: Why do you care whether I even answer statements with questions.?
12:30:24 <fizzie> oonbotti: You even do punctuation wrong sometimes.
12:30:24 <oonbotti> fizzie: Why do you say that about me?
12:30:32 <fizzie> oonbotti: Because it's TRUE.
12:30:32 <oonbotti> fizzie: If it's true., what else must be true?
12:30:44 <fizzie> That's exactly what I'm talking about.
12:31:06 <nortti> it is eliza, what did you expect?
12:31:57 <nortti> oonbotti: are you sentient?
12:31:57 <oonbotti> nortti: Would you prefer it if I were not sentient?
12:32:02 <oonbotti> nortti: Can you elaborate on that?
12:32:36 <fizzie> fungot: You could learn something about replies that are generally appropriate in most contexts, though.
12:32:37 <fungot> fizzie: throughout this manual contains the location of the chosen 16k block of memory pointer 648, basic doesn't require blanks between words unless leaving them out would give you the cycles per second.
12:33:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:33:34 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
12:33:51 <nortti> because, why not feed fungot into fungot?
12:33:52 <fungot> nortti: " and this is a new game. there is no. yellow is yes is ticked). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human...
12:34:54 <oonbotti> shachaf: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:35:10 <shachaf> oonbotti: It tells me that everyone's being irritating.
12:35:10 <oonbotti> shachaf: I see. And what does that tell you?
12:35:28 <shachaf> oonbotti: It tells me that... I don't know what!
12:36:28 <fungot> nortti: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
12:37:00 <elliott> cpressey: i hear i missed a thing
12:37:31 <shachaf> elliott: You didn't miss me hating everything.
12:38:02 <cpressey> elliott: you missed reporter coming in and getting a feel for the channel
12:38:18 <fizzie> You missed a reporter "copping a feel".
12:38:52 <elliott> was it as good as i'm imagining, i don't want to spoil it by reading the logs
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12:39:53 <cpressey> well, aiui he still plans to come back tonight, so
12:40:08 <cpressey> not sure what you were imagining
12:40:53 <fizzie> When was the Real Deal again? Thursday?
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12:42:51 <elliott> cpressey: did anyone take the opportunity to tell him how awful an idea this whole thing is
12:43:26 -!- shachaf has left.
12:43:55 <cpressey> elliott: yes. he seems undaunted.
12:44:19 <elliott> cpressey: a true journalist
12:49:46 <elliott> i like how the channel started a discussing of rickrolling after he joined. gotta show him we're up to date
12:52:12 <cpressey> <ais523> OTOH, being the sort of game that tends to be PSPACE-complete /does/ imply that a playfield-like concept exists :) <-- SET GAME is a little closer to Nim... harder to see that as a playfield
12:55:01 <elliott> 20:11:34: <Bike> http://www.jsvine.com/ this is probably the journalist
12:55:05 <elliott> Bike: grats doing this while he's in the channel
12:55:50 <elliott> 20:15:52: <Taneb> jsvine, as you can tell, we are a community who, although primarily linked by esoteric programming languages, share a wide variety of interests
12:55:53 <elliott> 20:16:03: <Taneb> Including rampant silliness
12:55:54 <elliott> Taneb: if this gets printed...
12:56:23 <Taneb> IT WILL BE AWESOME
12:56:23 <cpressey> Bike: never mind that question. irc logs are sometimes hard to read
12:56:43 <Taneb> Then I'll have been quoted in both the Wall Street Journal AND the Financial Times
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12:59:24 <cpressey> in the book "The Cognitive Connection" they mention a programming language designed, essentially, as art. In the 80's, by someone French, iirc. I'll have to find that book again sometime.
13:00:16 <cpressey> there's also... that one video game... and that one virtual world.
13:01:39 <Taneb> There was the video game which was Befunge with humungous mechas, wasn't there?
13:01:59 <cpressey> Taneb: that's the one; I want to call it "fallen winter wolf" which is clearly not it
13:02:17 <cpressey> betcha that when i do remember, though, the logic there will seem less random
13:02:25 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_Heart
13:02:49 <cpressey> well, carnage ~= fallen, maybe, but i don't know where "winter wolf" came from
13:03:31 <cpressey> i want to say something like "actionworld"
13:03:45 <elliott> now we have to make a game called fallen winter wolf
13:04:32 <Taneb> Or, I could play F Zero
13:04:43 <fizzie> cpressey: From "Heart of the Winter Wolf", a paranormal romance novel, of course.
13:05:00 <fizzie> "James Macleod was a Changeling who'd lost everything dear to him in a single night of blood and fire. Devastated by guilt and driven by grief, he became a great white wolf and vowed never to walk as a man again - until a small blonde veterinarian shook his resolve and his world."
13:05:05 <fizzie> It must've made an impression on you.
13:05:50 <fizzie> And Active Worlds is one of the virtual reality platforms, if that's what you meant.
13:06:17 <fizzie> (Formerly AlphaWorld.)
13:09:40 <cpressey> fizzie: that synopsis had me at "small"
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13:10:39 <cpressey> and yes, i think i was thinking of Active Worlds, but i don't actually know much about it
13:14:16 <cpressey> possibly not. I got the impression things were more coded *by* things *in* the world; maybe i got an misconception, or maybe i'm thinking of something else
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13:27:32 <cpressey> i think i was confusing it with KidSim
13:30:00 <cpressey> `learn ZOMGMODULES is a small blonde veterinarian
13:30:17 <HackEgo> cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he's older than the universe hth.
13:31:40 <elliott> haha oerjan linking jsvine to the wikipedia piet afd
13:31:49 <elliott> that'll make a great part of the article
13:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse.
13:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw cpressey has wanted to know about friendship mouse for a few days
13:33:09 <boily> how many cpressey wisdoms are we at?
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13:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-08-10#141057PhantomHoover onwards hth
13:40:22 <elliott> nice that log has some prime itidus for cpressey to understand too
13:41:39 <boily> itidus' = ditidus / dx | n = 20
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14:07:48 <metasepia> KJFK 291351Z 24004KT 6SM HZ BKN010 BKN085 18/16 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP198 T01830156
14:09:00 <boily> Jafet: good cloudy morning!
14:09:10 <boily> jsvine: good cloudy morning, says I.
14:09:15 <boily> once again autocompletion hates me.
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15:42:15 <zzo38> Today I connected to X-BIT but most door programs aren't working (even IceEdit isn't working). I think all the ones that are failing are DOS programs, so perhaps the DOS subsystem broke somehow. Some door programs do work; I think those ones are written in JavaScript, though. I did manage to successfully send a message by setting the "editor" config to "none", however.
15:43:00 <boily> zzo38: good fungotty morning!
15:43:00 <fungot> boily: just to help an fnord archive) it's ( syntactically) long
15:43:20 <boily> zzo38: they had javascript in the bbs days?
15:43:34 <zzo38> boily: No, but they do now.
15:44:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:46:33 <zzo38> It is the Mozilla JavaScript, so the extensions which are supported by Mozilla are supported in Synchronet too.
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15:51:51 <boily> holy fungot. peeking at crawl's git repo is very spoily, but oooooh... it feels good...
15:51:51 <fungot> boily: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer, fnord of the fnord here, so i don't
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15:53:50 <cpressey> fungot on fungot is extremely fungot-y
15:53:50 <fungot> cpressey: i am just as confused. you know, that the hall. a good hit will wake and behold
15:54:42 * boily hits fungot good. “Behold!”
15:54:42 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:55:16 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:55:16 <fungot> oerjan: if that is not used commonly and carries with it an array subscript
15:55:19 <HackEgo> 1042) <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
15:58:12 <cpressey> Bike: lemme change what i said to: thank you for mentioning Knowlton because I was not really aware of him before. http://www.kenknowlton.com/pages/04portrait.htm is a good read
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16:02:55 <oerjan> <shachaf> Maybe oerjan will remember since he logreads. <-- nope.
16:03:38 <oerjan> maybe shachaf will never know since he doesn't.
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16:31:27 <kmc> fungot: what should i read
16:31:28 <fungot> kmc: uh, sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it in the files that were given to me. if anybody has any information on funge-108 i would be interest...
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16:33:14 <fungot> elliott: if it's ( syntactically) long
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16:40:08 <FreeFull> I don't think it's going to end up in the newspaper
16:41:56 <kmc> what time?
16:42:32 <Bike> 4 pm edt, i think was said
16:43:22 <Bike> elliott: also the site had already been linked like twice. i'm real good at this stalky thing
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16:45:01 <oerjan> !malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>a=<M:9[p6tsl1TS/QlOj)L(I&%$""Z~AA@UZ=RvttT`R5P3m0LEDh,T*?(b&`$#87[}{W
16:50:36 <quintopia> oerjan: did you make that one or find it?
16:51:15 <oerjan> someone just edited wikipedia's malbolge page by shortening the example there
16:52:05 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Malbolge&diff=556858474&oldid=556635527
16:52:33 <oerjan> which leaves a conundrum, since the original version was the one on which the Elementary tv show reference was based, and this is mentioned in another section
16:53:32 <oerjan> so, how does one link to an older version of a wikipedia page from the same page
16:55:47 <elliott> how about just giving both the versions and noting the longer one as the one referenced
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16:58:55 <oerjan> elliott: um, sorry i didn't read your comment before committing hth
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17:34:33 <elliott> ion: (thanks for the fact checking :P)
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17:35:32 <elliott> no facts, of course. we can't have any facts in here
17:36:23 <oerjan> someone nipped my wp self-link pretty fast
17:39:19 <boily> `learn facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
17:39:59 <HackEgo> boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence.
17:40:09 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/fact{s,}
17:40:50 <HackEgo> facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
17:41:49 <oerjan> `run echo "Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups." >wisdom/lie
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17:44:34 <fizzie> The fact that all wisdoms go through rnooodl is I think kind of silly.
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17:45:54 <metasepia> noodle definition: a stupid person.
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18:16:00 <nooodl_> `learn nooodl is a stupid person
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18:20:48 <zzo38> I made some SQL extensions to improve some thing such as, making the EXEC function to execute SQL statements inside of a expression, CREATE_FUNCTION to create a function (when the function is called, it inserts a single row into the table or view named by the function but with "FN_" at front, where the first field is the context pointer and the others are the function parameters), and the COUNTER virtual table to make all 64-bit integers.
18:22:58 <zzo38> Obviously, if you try to access the COUNTER table without a constraint, it will take too long and have too many records.
18:25:03 <boily> still trying to SQLRPG?
18:25:49 <zzo38> I stopped temporarily, but will continue. Nevertheless, this can be used for that and other purposes; Z-Comp is also partially in SQL so it helps for that too (the other part of Z-Comp is written in JotaCode).
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18:28:20 <zzo38> JotaCode is the programming language used to program objects in ifMUD.
18:31:45 <FreeFull> I wonder what brainfuck with a relative jump instruction would be like
18:31:57 <Taneb> Pretty boring, I believe
18:33:38 <FreeFull> I wonder if it'd still be turing-complete
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18:37:29 <cpressey> relative jump with fixed offsets no, computed offsets yes hth
18:37:51 <cpressey> modulo some inability to compute good values without loops in the first place
18:38:13 <cpressey> which, yeah, you probably wouldn't be able to
18:39:29 <boily> you'd need variables, or introspection, or self-modifying code.
18:41:00 <fizzie> For any program where you always know where the pointer is, like (probably) the finite-tape unbounded-value TC proofs, you can probably just start the program with unary encodings of whatever numbers you need.
18:41:11 <cpressey> you might be able to do it with some sort of 'multiply one cell with another' instruction
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18:43:21 <cpressey> fizzie: that sort of goes in the direction of "putting the burden of Turing-completeness onto the input encoding" which... yeah
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18:44:39 <FreeFull> You'd still be able to take in arbitrary input with .
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18:45:56 <FreeFull> The jump offset would of course be whatever is in the current cell
18:47:53 <cpressey> FreeFull: but the problem is getting anything "productive" into that cell in the first place
18:49:25 <cpressey> you can use . and try to insist the input is always encoded in such a way that the jumps work out... but i think that falls apart
18:53:30 <oerjan> maybe if you have only bit input it will be easier?
18:54:18 <fizzie> I was thinking you might be able to do a boolfuck with a "skip next command" operation -- that's what the relative jump reduces to -- if you can just figure out a way to toggle 0/1.
18:54:38 <fizzie> (Not that I know if boolfuck with skip is good enough for anything.)
18:55:57 <FreeFull> How about if you also add a conditional trampoline
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18:56:10 <FreeFull> Although it would have to depend on a different cell
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18:57:23 <boily> are there any listed esolangs that use trampolines?
18:57:25 <cpressey> oerjan: i dealt with a similar issue to this in Larabee -- which is maybe not the best example because the jumps are weirder -- but I came to the (not rigorous) conclusion that if you depend on input to "get the jumps right", it's not Turing-complete. (e.g. compute Ackermann of this then tell me if it's larger than that; your input encoding has to "know" how many loops Ackermann's going to take, to get the compare jump right)
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18:58:10 <cpressey> fizzie: you could also do "skip next 10,000 commands" and just have a lot of padding when you don't need any... just observing
19:00:20 <cpressey> or 10.000 or 10_000 depending on your preferred thousands seperator of course
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19:05:28 <boily> cpressey: people use _?
19:06:29 <zzo38> I think SI uses spaces as thousands seperator
19:06:32 <fizzie> If the offset is relative to next instruction, and every odd cell is a 4 (for a fixed number of cells, you could set that up in advance), you can do J>J-->J<++>< to toggle the current cell from 0 to 2 or from 2 to 0, giving a kind of a boolfuck and "skip next 2". (Presumably extendable from 2 to any constant. Might be enough so that you can then programmatically do the setting-up as necessary, ...
19:07:15 <fizzie> (If current cell was 0, J>J-->J<++>< reduces to ><++><, and if it was 2 it reduces to --><.)
19:07:58 <FreeFull> boily: By trampoline I mean a funge style trampoline
19:12:22 <boily> FreeFull: that feels very snuspy.
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19:17:02 <Taneb> My fortress has a vampire...
19:17:23 <FreeFull> Lazily generating an infinite program
19:17:44 <cpressey> fizzie: that *might* work; the thing with Larabee is that there's a single global value that always affects a jump. here you'd have a set of "jump cells" and if you pre-set them all with sensible values from the input... yeah, maybe.
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19:19:11 <cpressey> FreeFull: copy- or quine-based languages like SMITH, Muriel, Underload...?
19:19:22 <boily> FreeFull: isn't that the one with a 2D brainfuck and /s and \s to flow everything around?
19:19:49 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving").
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19:20:45 <cpressey> literally stepped in just to say "hi"
19:20:54 <boily> at least we know he stil exists. in which form? that is unknown. but he exists.
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19:26:33 <kmc> the ghost of #esoteric past
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19:31:18 <boily> Taneb: let us not immediately jump to presumptuous conclusions. itidus may has become a very powerful lich for all we know here.
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19:32:59 <kmc> maybe itidus has uploaded to the internet
19:33:21 <HackEgo> calamari: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:33:42 <kmc> calamari vs metasepia
19:33:43 <AnotherTest> heh, itidus. That's been a while. I remember him.
19:34:33 <calamari> hi Chris, thanks for letting me know about this
19:34:58 <HackEgo> RnTz: RnTz: RnTz: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
19:35:22 <elliott> i just realised how incredibly 90s our stupid welcomes make the bot look
19:35:39 <Bike> is there a 90s for bots
19:36:33 <metasepia> calamari definition: squid used as food.
19:36:54 <cpressey> paging the sysop for chat is late-80s early-90s
19:37:37 <zzo38> Paging the sysop for chat is still supported in Synchronet
19:37:41 <AnotherTest> I'm really bad at graph wars. I think I might write my own version so I can be better
19:38:08 <AnotherTest> I'm thinking of a variant were you can lay out defense functions
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19:38:30 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: itidus came back for a minute
19:38:31 <zzo38> Also, some IRC servers might support the SUMMON command, to page someone working on the same computer as the IRC server.
19:38:39 <zzo38> (My own IRC server does.)
19:38:46 <AnotherTest> and when the other guy fires off his function, it composes with the defense function starting from the point of intersection
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19:40:17 <cpressey> unsurprisingly perhaps, HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe 404's
19:40:56 <elliott> cpressey: people keep bugging me to make the /WIKI/ link in the uppercase version work. i figure i should make it a fully functional version of the wiki with all the text uppercased
19:41:16 <cpressey> ELLIOTT: THAT WOULD BE GREAT, DO IT
19:41:20 <kmc> HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/wiki/Main_Page is fine though, natch
19:41:27 <kmc> but yes do that elliott
19:41:32 <Bike> for the full intercal experience
19:41:35 <kmc> T ELLIOTT YES DO THAT (WAS RE: COCKS)
19:41:45 <zzo38> elliott: No, make it read-only, except that you can push "edit" and so on which will redirect to the proper one.
19:41:53 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 PROGRAM-ID. GOBS-PROGRAM.
19:42:16 <elliott> kmc: the problem is that there are two ways to do it, and one way is way easier but lame
19:42:22 <elliott> so the best thing I can do is just procrastinate on it
19:42:41 <shachaf> elliott: The way easier one is a stylesheet?
19:43:05 <Bike> kmc: the * is a comment, right? fortran did the same thing and i hated it
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19:43:24 <elliott> that way it won't even copy in uppercase.
19:43:33 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I suppose that would work and can be fully functional.
19:43:36 <Bike> you can do that with sylesheets, huh
19:43:46 <elliott> Bike: yeah you can even do title case
19:43:47 <kmc> Bike: yeah
19:44:03 <kmc> also in 'modern' cobol you don't nee the line numbers and you can mix case and whatever else
19:44:03 <fizzie> Bike: Canonically I think it's C in the comment indicator position, though.
19:44:07 <kmc> but i wanted to be old skool
19:44:10 <cpressey> rotate every paragraph 47 degrees
19:44:15 <kmc> also this is the first and only cobol program i've written
19:44:32 <Bike> yeah i know, you just reminded me of this book of fortran programs i have
19:44:41 <kmc> Fortran 90 is also free-form
19:44:41 <Bike> none of which are even conformant to any standard and agh
19:44:48 <elliott> every ancient language turns into C with words instead of symbols
19:44:57 <Bike> modern fortran seems ok, shitty fortran 77 is not
19:44:57 <kmc> lool who needs standards
19:44:59 <elliott> except APL which turns into APL with ASCII instead of APL's character set
19:45:17 <kmc> what should i write my next gob's program in
19:45:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/TbbH?fortran <- Befunge-93 in FORTRAN.
19:45:40 <fizzie> (The computed goto is the best part of it.)
19:45:51 <Bike> kmc: i swear to god, the book was like "this should be reasonably easy to port" along with like a paragraph of explanation of this weird idiomatic shit explaining why there were numbers placed randomly all over the program (job commands for their system. apparently) and just, cocks
19:45:56 <kmc> considering: befunge, piet, lazy-k, fortran, algol-68, sed
19:46:06 <kmc> fizzie: nice!
19:46:18 <zzo38> kmc: Eventually do all of them.
19:46:33 <fizzie> kmc: The first version was all in lowercase, but it didn't really look like a FORTRAN program at all.
19:46:53 <zzo38> Not really every one turns into C, although there are many similaries. BLISS has some interesting features too; the macros and structures in BLISS are more powerful than those in C.
19:47:29 <mnoqy> what's the history of this gob's program
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19:47:39 <zzo38> (I also happen to think the dereferencing syntax in BLISS, which is unlike nearly any other programming language, is more logical than C and I prefer too)
19:47:47 <kmc> mnoqy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
19:47:50 <kmc> it's essentially a truth machine
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19:49:00 <zzo38> kmc: Why didn't you consider Verilog or APL?
19:49:09 <kmc> zzo38: i am considering
19:49:45 <Bike> APL's vectorization ought to make for very eficient Penuses
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19:51:20 <zzo38> It says "penus" is Latin words for provisions
19:51:29 <kmc> zzo38: what says?
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19:53:10 <kmc> duck penises are terrifying
19:53:37 <mnoqy> i've heard bad things about them
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19:56:05 <jsvine> Hey, all, getting ready for my "interview" with cpressey in a few minutes...
19:56:38 <kmc> sorry to say I won't be around for it in realtime
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19:57:45 <cpressey> jsvine: Whenever you're ready, I'm ready... to see if I regret not going with my initial impulse (which was, tbh, "Mainstream media? Sorry, I don't grant interviews with non-entities.")
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19:58:51 <mnoqy> `relcome simmarine_
19:58:54 <HackEgo> simmarine_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:59:25 <jsvine> cpressey: Do you enjoy long walks on the beach?
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19:59:59 <cpressey> jsvine: Oh, you're good. Well -- I used to, but I'm not currently near a beach. I do enjoy long walks, though.
20:00:21 <jsvine> cpressey: Where do you live now?
20:01:20 <zzo38> Hello, jsvine, and whoever else
20:01:29 <cpressey> jsvine: I'm somewhere in Cornwall, UK. Nearer to the moor than the coast, though. So, I enjoy long walks on the moor.
20:02:14 <jsvine> cpressey: Is Cornwall anywhere near Hexham?
20:02:14 <boily> cpressey: aurgh. I wrote cornwall, ON in my file.
20:03:25 <cpressey> jsvine: It's nearER than Chicago, Seattle, Vancouver, or Winnipeg. But I don't think I'd want to walk there from here.
20:03:48 <Taneb> jsvine, Cornwall is about as far away from Hexham as it is possible to get without leaving England
20:03:49 <jsvine> cpressey: In any case, how'd you first get into esolangs?
20:04:24 <jsvine> Taneb: ah, gotcha, thanks. I suppose I could've just Googled that, but I was hoping for a more punny answer.
20:05:23 <Taneb> jsvine, that's kind of like saying, "Is Maine anywhere near Los Angeles?"
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20:07:18 <cpressey> jsvine: Back in the early 90's, a friend of mine (sysop of another BBS in Winnipeg) exposed me to Forth, and I realized that writing your own programming language was not impossible. And then, through a BBS file-sharing network (Aminet, it's still around), I discovered Wouter van Oortmersen's FALSE and Urban Mueller's brainfuck languages, and I realized that it could also be weird (and I've always liked weird.) And then...
20:08:11 -!- calamari has joined.
20:08:12 <cpressey> jsvine: ...another sysop friend made a fateful typo in chat (he typed "befunge" instead of "before") and I decided I had to design a language with that name. I did, and put it on my BBS.
20:08:42 <jsvine> cpressey: Did the name influence the design of the language at all?
20:09:34 <Taneb> jsvine, I want to inform you that this interview is being filmed
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20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> omg i can't believe i missed the start of the interview
20:10:28 <cpressey> jsvine: Well -- there's an ancient aphorism about how "I have the perfect name for a programming language, now I only need to design it" (I don't have the exact quote handy.) But, in truth, I went through several designs before I thought of the one that became Befunge. So the relationship between the name and the language is maybe an illusion, or maybe it's just hard to describe.
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20:11:22 <cpressey> (I actually found some notes on Befunge predecessors a while back, maybe I'll publish them sometime)
20:11:34 <jsvine> cpressey: Hm, interesting. How did the earlier designs differ from the final Befunge?
20:11:57 <elliott> ("The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language." -- Donald Knuth)
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20:12:44 <jsvine> elliott: thanks, that's a great quotation
20:13:05 <quintopia> internet is weird. i get better reception here in the woods than i did in the house in town.
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20:13:45 <cpressey> jsvine: Well, they weren't as workable. One was sort of an "object-oriented assembly" (this was when OO was still pretty new.) At least, they paled in comparison to having this inspiration (while I was on a walk, not a long one, but a walk) where I kind of saw a BASIC program, except instead of GOTO's, it had arrows connecting bits of the program together. (Probably inspired a bit by flowcharts and this one multimedia program called "AmigaVision".)
20:16:07 <cpressey> That, plus what I knew about how to write a Forth-like RPN interpreter, turned fairly quickly into Befunge.
20:16:32 <jsvine> cpressey: Ah, interesting. I apologize if this information is already easily available, but do you have a copy of the first working Befunge program?
20:17:20 <boily> if you're exploring befunge's history, maybe a copy of Hunt the Wumpus would be interesting?
20:18:47 <jsvine> boily: I'm not familiar with HtW. Could you explain?
20:18:48 * quintopia bets he drew the first one on paper before the language was even implemented
20:19:02 <cpressey> jsvine: I don't know which was the first one exactly, but in https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/tree/master/eg the ones that say 'xx/yy/93' (where xx and yy are guesses) are the earliest.
20:20:25 <elliott> (wrt boily, https://github.com/catseye/Befunge-93/blob/master/eg/wumpus.bf implements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_the_Wumpus)
20:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, IIRC befunge was originally described as practical in the sense that you could plausibly write hunt the wumpus in it.
20:21:17 <jsvine> elliott & Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I get it! Wild.
20:21:49 <jsvine> Is that the most impressive (defined however you want) Befunge program? Or are there crazier ones?
20:22:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has to be all " pow!" and he was suddenly i rose, put up her mouth, pulled down by the gold saucer... think his name was close ever, and yet, at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, " the conclusion is, then thou, the greatest soldier, de. she wanna be friends, his state vsurp'd, his realme a slaughter-house, his sub
20:22:44 <elliott> probably hunt the wumpus is the most elaborate befunge-93 program?
20:22:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive) of living. these he does to lady vanity; but we have no other comfort, not by the shortest fnord abate the nuisance, they pull this off i think i turning is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering if any current scheme system has the best design; however, is that
20:22:55 <elliott> fungot is befunge-98, quite a different language
20:22:55 <fungot> elliott: and is one of the other qubits should stay. you, in the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
20:23:35 <cpressey> Note that all I've said so far pre-dates esolang proper. It wasn't until I got on the WWW, and make a Befunge web page, and that page was selected as "Geek Site of the Day" in 1996, that a significant number of people knew of the existence (for some value of significant) and that people (in this case Wim Rjinders) dared undertake programs this complex in it.
20:24:12 <jsvine> So the early Befunge days were all on BBS?
20:24:40 <jsvine> And what programs did Wim dare to undertake?
20:24:43 <cpressey> jsvine: Yes. So, all the people listed in the credits at the bottom of the Befunge-93 documentation lived in the same city as me (Winnipeg) at the time.
20:25:34 <cpressey> jsvine: Wim did Hunt the Wumpus and, I think, a Befunge interpreter in Befunge (well, a subset of Befunge, in Befunge). Dmitry did some impressive ones too, like a Mandelbrot generator.
20:25:43 <zzo38> Are you going to post the file on the X-BIT BBS?
20:27:13 <cpressey> http://wimrijnders.nl/other/befunge.html <-- Wim's resurrected page, some out-of-date information there, but actually a kind of nice snapshot of a time when the mailing list was transitioning from "about Befunge" to "about Esolang".
20:27:35 <cpressey> zzo38: I don't have an account, actually, I don't even know what that is... but feel free to post it there yourself :)
20:28:27 <zzo38> (Hint: It is x-bit.org port 23, in case you are wondering what it is)
20:28:53 <jsvine> Wim's mention of Cat's Eye raises a question I've been wondering about: What *is* Cat's Eye Technologies? Just a collective name for your esolang projects? Or something else?
20:30:28 <cpressey> jsvine: In the beginning, it was my "DBA" name ("Doing Business As", aka "Trading As" in the UK) for my freelance work. After I moved, I never really bothered to register it again, so it became sort of an un-official non-organization, a brand name for distributing esolangs and other miscellany under (it's still just me, though.)
20:31:28 <jsvine> cpressey: Gotcha. Which raises another question, re. your freelance. What sort of paid work do you do for a living? I assume designing esolangs isn't super lucrative?
20:32:14 <quintopia> everyone and their brother wants to buy a colorForth machine.
20:33:23 <cpressey> jsvine: You're absolutely right that it's kind of hard to make any money on esolangs. My day job (whether freelance or corporate at any given time in my life) is as a computer programmer, or software developer, or software engineer (depending on what decade it is.)
20:34:41 <jsvine> cpressey: What type of work is it this decade?
20:34:47 <cpressey> (By "kind of hard" I don't mean to imply I've ever actually *tried* to make money on them, by the way.)
20:35:25 <olsner> hmm, has anyone tried?
20:35:26 <jsvine> (Has anyone, to anyone here's knowledge, every made money from esolang design or use?)
20:35:49 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, what's the story behind that?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> although i got the profit part from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#1991
20:37:20 <jsvine> (Ward's page says "Biota was packaged and sold publicly online in 1991." Anyone know what he might mean by that? If not, I can try getting in touch with him.)
20:37:45 <Bike> oh hey, smalltalk. neat.
20:37:46 <cpressey> jsvine: I could go on about "software engineering", but that's what it is, certainly if continually-running servers are involved (IMO "software engineer" is more like "ship's engineer" than "professional engineer": keeping it going is as important (maybe more important) than designing and documenting it.)
20:38:01 <elliott> re biota, possibly at http://c2.com/ (also home of the first wiki)
20:38:16 <cpressey> Freelance stuff tends to be more on the software development side, though.
20:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, the esolangs page links to his article on it but he doesn't give much in the way of detail
20:38:47 <jsvine> cpressey: gotcha, thanks. So is the "software engineering" part not freelance?
20:39:17 <cpressey> jsvine: (takes sip of water) I thought this was going to be about esolangs...?
20:39:43 <calamari> befunge was a lang that inspired a lot of ohers. brainfuck was another
20:40:05 <cpressey> Or, to be less abrasive, I think we may be straying from the topic.
20:40:36 <jsvine> Yep, we are. But the money question interests me because of the inherent non-practical aspects of esolangs.
20:41:18 <jsvine> Though I suppose lots of hobbies are non-practical. Why do crosswords? Why build sculptures out of toothpicks?
20:42:20 <cpressey> OK, it boils down to, generally, if you want someone to babysit the software they write for you (what I'm calling "engineering"), you hire them full-time.
20:42:44 <jsvine> The potential audience for your creations, though, seem purposely limited. What draws you to creating things that likely only a handful of people will be able to appreciate?
20:42:47 <quintopia> well, almost out of battery. guess i'll just have to read the logs.
20:43:14 <calamari> I designedand used esolangs as a way to challenge my programming preconceptions and stretch my abilities
20:43:19 <cpressey> In the past, I've compared esolang to ham radio. It's an amateur activity (not in the sense of "unprofessional", but in the sense that it exists outside the professional sphere.)
20:43:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose that could be some kind of way.
20:43:52 <zzo38> I have once seen esolang discussed in Linux Journal, I think.
20:44:28 <calamari> having to think about a problem in a new way.. limitations that help with creativity
20:44:40 <boily> jsvine: esolanging has some very passionate enthusiasts, with people they can relate to. (or not. the Hexham singularity hasn't happened yet.)
20:44:58 <olsner> what's the hexham singularity?
20:45:08 <boily> olsner: when they'll meet in person.
20:45:13 <jsvine> What, would you (or anyone else here) say are the major programming preconceptions that esolangs challenge?
20:45:23 <cpressey> Hams are actually forbidden from making money on what they do as a ham, as I understand it. Esolangers aren't forbidden, of course, but since it's all about source code, and about exploring interesting ways of programming, it's not really feasible. Open-source makes much more sense; in fact a lot of it is full-on public domain.
20:45:44 <jsvine> The syntax discussion you all had yesterday seemed to touch on one.
20:45:48 <zzo38> jsvine: Nearly all of them.
20:46:00 <jsvine> zzo38: Most revelatory to you?
20:46:11 <nooodl_> syntax is the most obvious one
20:46:35 <cpressey> Maybe time for another aphorism: "Any language which doesn't affect the way you think about programming isn't worth learning." (again, not an exact quote.)
20:46:39 <zzo38> jsvine: Unfortunately I don't know, but INTERCAL and Prehistory of esoteric programming are some, I guess.
20:47:00 <boily> jsvine: structured programming is nearly always thrown out of the window. for me, the main point when exploring a language is: what few tools does it provides, and how can I assemble them. if the lang makes me reflect on very basic things, like underload and arithmetic, then it's a success.
20:47:35 <zzo38> And sometimes structured programming is thrown out of the door instead.
20:48:02 <jsvine> "structured programming is nearly always thrown out of the window" <- I'm not sure I understand this, but it sounds interesting. Could you elaborate?
20:48:59 <cpressey> jsvine: oh, I missed your "The potential audience" question. I think it's because, in an amateur activity, I'm going to do what interests *me*; and in designing a new language I, personally, learn a lot from it. I don't usually know entirely how it will play out until it's implemented. If other people are also interested, well, that's a bonus.
20:49:02 <boily> jsvine: with modern mainstream languages, emphasis is put on structure, answering "how can we build large projects with multiple contributors and maintainers?". discipline is very important, and is manifested through commonplace patterns.
20:49:24 <boily> jsvine: esolangs go completely opposite to that: what can we abandon, and still have some working program at the end.
20:49:27 <zzo38> cpressey: That is mostly same to me, I think
20:49:39 <zzo38> boily: Yes, that is a very good description of it.
20:50:05 <jsvine> boily: yes, that's fascinating, and very clear
20:50:33 <boily> INTERCAL mocks the patterns of the day (and still some that came after).
20:50:35 <cpressey> zzo38: there's a quote from the comedian Bruce McCulloch which goes something like, "I think my work reaches the people it needs to reach." I doubt I'll be able to find the real version of that quote though.
20:51:10 <jsvine> It seems like mainstream programming is trending toward "scalability," whether in the human or infrastructural sense, and esolangs say "Who cares?"
20:51:29 <boily> jsvine: that's it.
20:51:58 <zzo38> Wikipedia also mentions Dada Engine and rmutt in its esolangs article, although FurryScript is probably far more unusual.
20:52:02 <jsvine> boily & co.: If INTERCAL mocks the patterns of the day, what do today's esolangs mock? (and which esolangs do the best mocking?)
20:53:04 <boily> jsvine: hmm... I'd say glass is quite good. OOP to the very, very extreme.
20:53:06 <jsvine> (FYI, I have to head to a meeting in 7 minutes. But I'll be around a bit later today, and tomorrow, to continue chatting, as long as I haven't overstayed my welcome.)
20:53:27 <zzo38> Duff (the same guy who Duff's device is named after) wrote an article about prehistory of esoteric programming, mentioning such as P'', TECO, APL, and L6.
20:53:29 <jsvine> boily: thanks, I'll take a look at glass.
20:53:37 <boily> jsvine: oh! just one more thing!
20:53:44 <cpressey> jsvine: Not at all, I think we've enjoyed having you here. I certainly have.
20:54:01 <calamari> I'm not sure that esolangs are al trying to mock. some are intended to be difficult, some are trying to be different or unusual, some are meant as a joke
20:54:02 <jsvine> zzo38: I'd definitely be interested to read that. Do you have a link?
20:54:08 <boily> jsvine: the Full Version of the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates, and body weigh?
20:54:12 <cpressey> jsvine: As for what it mocks, I'd include "your assumption that you were such a hotshot rockstar ninja developer, cretin."
20:54:19 <zzo38> jsvine: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages
20:55:06 <jsvine> calamari: makes sense, thanks
20:55:38 <cpressey> (for some reason we call it "body weigh" here on #esoteric, and I still don't know why)
20:55:54 <boily> (cpressey: stupid typo.)
20:56:16 <calamari> malbolge is one that sticks out to me as trying to be difficult
20:56:22 <cpressey> but we (not just you) ALWAYS seem to make it; i think we should keep it
20:56:36 <jsvine> boily: I'm in New York, NY and weigh more than an iPhone
20:56:39 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
20:56:46 <jsvine> I'll leave you with this:
20:56:48 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:57:04 <jsvine> (Or maybe the point is not to care whether it works?)
20:57:42 <cpressey> Having it work is good, if that was your goal. If not, feel free to change your goal midstream :)
21:00:21 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i *think* so long as i unplug my laptop i can watch the iplayer live
21:02:02 <cpressey> correct capitalization really wears one out
21:02:15 <zzo38> cpressey: Have you (specifically) seen Dada Engine, rmutt, and FurryScript?
21:03:02 <cpressey> zzo38: a) no b) no c) i read the php source code for FurryScript but didn't try it (tbh in part because it's php)
21:04:38 <zzo38> cpressey: I may rewrite it in C another day, in order to improve the speed, but I didn't by now. Dada Engine and rmutt are programs for similar things; both were mentioned on the Wikipedia article about esoteric programming (although FurryScript was written entirely independently of these).
21:06:28 <zzo38> And of those count as esolangs, FurryScript probably does too since it happens to be far more unusual in its functioning.
21:12:42 <cpressey> man, you know what i just realized? i didn't swear *once*. someone, slap me on the wrist.
21:14:57 <elliott> cpressey: were you on your second whiskey?
21:16:46 <cpressey> elliott: that one i can at least lie about if it's not true
21:16:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Note that it can also run remotely. (It seems that rmutt is supposed to do that too, but it doesn't.)
21:18:57 <cpressey> i remember now why i never visit the wikipedia page for esoteric programming languages
21:20:16 <cpressey> because it's terrible and (in some sense) it's MY fault
21:21:09 <cpressey> maybe i'll just donate to wikipedia to assuage my guilt for not wanting to edit it instead
21:21:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: maybe "terrible" is a strong word, but it's all... wikipediay.
21:21:56 <zzo38> Well, if you have money, you certainly can do if you like to do so, please!! If you don't want to edit it, that is OK, since someone else might do so.
21:22:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:22:36 <elliott> ais523: you missed all the fun
21:22:43 <ais523> we have logs, don't we?
21:22:55 <elliott> i think you will find you still missed it.
21:23:13 <cpressey> calamari: i mean it's my fault for not editing it to be less bad
21:24:05 <cpressey> ais523: no i ate all the logs om nom nom
21:24:41 <cpressey> but yeah, where IS Gregor these days?
21:24:48 <ais523> hmm… sometimes I suspect that the job of a journalist is to learn enough about a subject to give a convincing-looking but useless summary that pulls on a few human interest points
21:24:51 <HackEgo> 2013-05-24 02:51:47: <Gregor> How does it compare to SONiVOX?
21:24:58 <Gregor> Well I haven't fallen of the face of the Earth, yeesh.
21:25:10 <zzo38> ais523: O, that's what it is? Well, maybe that is what it is.
21:25:15 <cpressey> oh gee, maybe we should HAVE MENTIONED YOUR NICK AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST THREE DAYS
21:25:40 <zzo38> Do you agree/disagree with what is written here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Astronomical_symbols#Zodiac_Symbols
21:25:57 <ais523> cpressey: you know it's hard to predict zzo38's actions
21:26:04 <Gregor> My xchat notification was notificating.
21:26:27 <elliott> Gregor: you just missed possibly the only exciting thing to ever happen in the history of #esoteric
21:26:30 <calamari> gregor: I should write a copycat page to yours called "choose my pony socks"
21:27:03 <cpressey> ais523: I was referring to Gregor's nick, just to be clear
21:27:07 <zzo38> You can reach the logs, at least.
21:27:08 <cpressey> fun fact: Gregor's nick happens to be "Gregor"
21:27:12 <boily> will we get t-shirts featuring the interview's abstract?
21:27:12 <calamari> (since I now have 37 pair and I have trouble deciding)
21:27:20 <ais523> cpressey: yeah, I didn't notice for a while
21:27:35 <olsner> calamari: you should write a page for choosing Gregor's pony socks instead
21:28:15 <cpressey> ais523: fwiw, he did seem to learn smth about the subject, or, well, read to the end of the interview. and he may be back, presumably for more informal research like he did yesterday.
21:28:18 <ais523> elliott: is that Knuth quote an actual Knuth quote?
21:28:30 <ais523> it could be, but I don't know it is
21:28:35 <ais523> cpressey: yeah, I'm reading it
21:28:49 <olsner> calamari: if you don't tell him about the results of the votes, it doesn't matter who has or hasn't socks
21:29:34 <calamari> olsner: how does all this help me choose my socks, again?
21:30:35 <olsner> calamari: choosing your socks seems inconvenient since those might not be near Gregor at the time he needs to wear them
21:30:53 <calamari> I mean I open my drawer, and see all the happy ponies and I can't choose. Just have to blindly pick one
21:30:55 <ais523> hmm, that was quite a short interview
21:30:55 <olsner> or maybe I'm just thinking too much about the practical issues
21:31:19 <zzo38> calamari: Unless you want to wear two different socks, you should not blindly pick the second one too.
21:32:02 <elliott> ais523: google knows the answer
21:32:17 <ais523> zzo38: it's rare for people to not wear two different socks, if they're wearing two socks at all
21:32:21 <ais523> it's hard to put the same sock on both feet
21:32:36 <zzo38> I mean two different colors of socks
21:33:09 <boily> time to sublty disappear.
21:33:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:33:12 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:57 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/socks.jpg
21:34:45 <cpressey> i think that took me all of six minutes a few days ago
21:37:25 <cpressey> (i got a low-end drawing tablet and am slowly rediscovering how much i suck at visual art, not really having drawn anything except ILLGOL since high school)
21:37:46 -!- simmarine_ has changed nick to simmarine.
21:39:11 <elliott> cpressey: i am disappointed that catseye.tc does not have a fancy custom 404 page
21:39:17 <elliott> thought i should register this complaint with you
21:40:13 <cpressey> yeah, looks like it's custom, but not fancy. ironically, i was really excited about making a fancy 404 handler that tried to help you find what you were looking for. once.
21:40:34 <cpressey> i should at least put some text or a link on it i guess
21:41:31 <elliott> ais523: so did you fail to shorten messages on the plane of fire "i hear things"
21:41:44 <elliott> cpressey: by custom, I mean it seems to be some standard web host one because I've seen it on a ton of sites
21:41:54 <ais523> elliott: it's not so much that I've failed, just that I have not yet succeeded
21:42:29 <cpressey> elliott: really? what url? i get the custom one, but maybe it's not configured entire proper
21:42:51 <elliott> cpressey: oh, it was http://catseye.tc/images/xyzzy/. maybe it's different because it's not part of the normal site
21:42:51 <cpressey> ohhh you were trying to list the directory WERENTCHA
21:43:08 <cpressey> yeah, there's probably... a reason
21:44:00 -!- simmarine has left ("Leaving").
21:49:01 <calamari> I had a lot of trouble with my tablet. I actually went back to a mouse and had more success
21:49:15 <ais523> cpressey: the pastebin equivalent on my server (where I put things to post to people) is /robots.txted out
21:49:30 <ais523> except it turns out that duckduckgo will list it as being potentially interesting anyway just based on incoming links
21:49:36 <ais523> even though it's not allowed to (and doesn't) visit the page itself
21:49:42 <calamari> if I were more persistent I'm sure the tablet would win out tho
21:49:42 <ais523> so it's even recommending nonexistent pages there
21:50:33 <zzo38> Once I have found files that were prohibited by /robots.txt sort of by accident; I was trying to make a backup of a few files using wget (and succeeded), but I noticed it also downloaded robots.txt, and then I found secret files using that.
21:51:24 <cpressey> calamari: mine's definitely quirky sometimes, but usable... it does pressure (but not tilt or anything) but its button is semi-useless. the brand is "Trust" but i forget the model # offhand
21:51:52 <cpressey> might be better to use pencil/ink/etc on actual real paper and scan it in, but this is more novel to me
21:52:17 <cpressey> ais523: the internet is truly a weird and wonderful whirlpool of ________ [finish this alliteration]
21:53:59 <cpressey> zzo38: yeah, i think i've noticed that with a robots.txt at some point too -- a bit ironic. "don't look at these!" "oh?? what are those??
21:54:25 <ais523> cpressey: my robots.txt is pretty much "this isn't useful for a search engine to show in its results"
21:54:55 <cpressey> maybe i should host a humans.txt as an easter egg of sorts
21:56:45 <ais523> listing which pages should only be read by automated bots?
21:56:55 <ais523> /dev/null has one of those
21:57:07 <zzo38> No, the humans.txt file is used to just mention miscellaneous information
21:57:09 <ais523> it's a set of pages that collectively contain an infinite number of fake email addresses
21:57:18 <zzo38> To tell you about the server
21:57:21 <ais523> the idea is to waste spambots' time
21:58:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:59:02 <cpressey> ais523: by /dev/null do you mean the path /dev/null on your http server??
21:59:44 <cpressey> i'm a bit confused, i want to call what you're talking about a "honeypot", but i don't think that's exactly the right term, but i am too lazy to ask the internet
22:00:17 <calamari> cpressey: mine is a wacom pen, so its a good tablet, but the user is not skillful ;)
22:01:02 <ais523> cpressey: I mean a website
22:01:07 <ais523> best known for hosting a tournament
22:01:14 <ais523> err, a NetHack tournament
22:01:17 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamtrap
22:01:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:01:50 <cpressey> calamari: it does take a bit of practice "drawing via CCTV"
22:02:46 <cpressey> but undo makes up for it, oh the undo, oh the undo, i am so spoiled, DRAWING IS LIKE CODING hack debug hack debug hack debug
22:02:49 <calamari> yeah unless you want to drop some major cash
22:04:15 <cpressey> oh jeez, that is kinda droolworthy
22:06:36 <calamari> however when I see amazing art drawn with a mouse, I realize the equipment is not the most important thing, by far
22:08:46 <cpressey> true. given how much i use undo and otherwise treat it as a trial-and-error activity, i might be just as well off with a mouse. but sometimes the pen seems faster (for some reason i like playing mahjohngg with it)
22:08:59 -!- conehead has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:07 <zzo38> How can you play mahjong with it?
22:10:12 -!- conehead has joined.
22:11:31 <cpressey> zzo38: it acts pretty much like a mouse, to the system. certain programs (like GIMP) can get the extra information it provides (pressure).
22:12:37 <cpressey> i actually got it partly because i wanted to experiment with using pressure as an input parameter for some application that's *not* drawing (like, maybe music or something), but haven't got around to searching for the libs etc i'd need to read that
22:13:33 <cpressey> the protocol is apparently called WALTOP, fwiw
22:14:43 <cpressey> ugh, would probably have to look at gimp or inkscape sources to figure out how to use it though i think
22:14:58 <elliott> cpressey: esolang based on tablets
22:15:02 <elliott> "i provide the inspiration"
22:16:10 <cpressey> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/linuxwacom/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:17:14 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:31 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
22:17:35 <elliott> cpressey: all i ask for in return is royalties
22:17:56 * calamari needs to write an esolang for cash
22:20:14 <calamari> step 1. write esolang, step 2. ???, step 3. PROFIT
22:20:33 <cpressey> if only we could BUSK with these things
22:20:37 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:20:59 <Bike> don't you need a permit for that now
22:21:27 <cpressey> depends on the place, but most places, yeah
22:22:33 <cpressey> "yeah, i'd like to get a permit to livecode academic mathematical functions in brainfuck in front of people at Paddington station please"
22:23:21 <cpressey> "oh, well, you know, the usual, calculate pi, the Ackermann function, Gob's program, and the like"
22:23:55 <cpressey> "no, it's mainly just plus and minus signs and left and right arrows. oh, and sometimes full stop and comma"
22:24:40 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:25:13 <SgeoN1> Reading the REBOL 3 guide. Reminds me a bit of Tcl and Factor.
22:26:33 <cpressey> not entirely sure what i mean by that
22:28:21 <cpressey> kind of what i mean by that is -- it's existed since the Amiga days and it's now been open-source for... almost six months!
22:30:11 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:32:46 <SgeoN1> REBOL 3 is still in alpha. As far as I'm aware, its the first version that has documentation suitable for understanding why people think it's interesting
22:34:24 <cpressey> FreeFull: i remember hearing about it when i still owned an Amiga 500
22:40:04 <cpressey> SgeoN1: you should write a Deadfish interpreter in REBOL!
22:44:22 <cpressey> zzo38: do you know any mathematical theorems about mahjong (solitaire)? there is definitely something algebraical about it (plus an element of chance because you can't see all the tiles. i assume it was a slightly different game before computers let you undo moves. actually i kind of wonder, did people get someone else to build the initial structure for them, so they wouldn't have a chance of remembering which tiles were under which)
22:45:21 <cpressey> rewrite system invisible maze get stuck dead end
22:45:43 <cpressey> sorry, i'm probably still a little manic from the interview
22:45:54 <elliott> it's ok. we're here for you in this difficult time
22:47:11 <zzo38> cpressey: About mahjong solitaire I don't know any.
22:47:16 <elliott> http://www.haskell.org/hugs/ hth
22:47:21 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
22:47:29 <elliott> haskell, #1 supplier of hugs
22:47:37 <shachaf> hugs, #2 supplier of haskell
22:47:57 <zzo38> But I do know how the probabilities work in four-players mahjong.
22:48:54 -!- elieser224 has joined.
22:49:22 <cpressey> http://www.rebol.com/what-rebol.html i love it when they have a manifesto
22:49:23 -!- elieser224 has left.
22:50:13 <elliott> ok what is with elieser224 joining and then /parting minutes later
22:50:17 <elliott> it's been going on for years
22:51:43 <ion> % apt-cache search rebol
22:52:00 <lambdabot> ndm says: I was browsing through the Yhc standard libraries, as one does on the weekend, and was drawn to Yhc's sort function.
22:52:21 <lambdabot> Eduard_Munteanu says: [In response to "GHC can go jump out a window" and "GHC has already jumped out a window and flied and left you behind"] Yes, GHC even implements optimizations such as defenestrat
22:53:10 <ion> Huh. lambdabot has some arbitrary length limit instead of following the IRC command length limit (in which the length of the PRIVMSG target name matters)?
22:53:32 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
22:53:34 <ion> This totally blew my mind, dude.
22:53:59 <lambdabot> JonathanShapiro says: We are now preparing a more sensible surface syntax, whereupon we will receive rotten egg and tomato complaints from the LISP community.
22:54:24 <ion> So there’s a specific channel name length at which lambdabot starts losing parts of long messages it sends?
22:54:35 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: Couldn't match kind `?? -> ? -> *' against `(* -> *) -> * -> *'
22:54:37 <shachaf> Isn't there a limit on channel name length?
22:54:45 <shachaf> Perhaps lambdabot's cutoff is conservative.
22:54:59 <ion> Yeah, different networks have different limits.
22:55:34 <cpressey> ais523: did you really memorize the numbers of those syntax quotes?
22:55:53 <ais523> I looked them up just before quoting them in channel
22:56:03 <shachaf> Quote numbers change all the time.
22:56:27 <shachaf> Is Mr. Svine in the quote database yet?
22:58:48 <cpressey> ais523: that reassures me that you are, in fact, human. probably.
22:59:15 <shachaf> ais523 is one of the more human people in this channel.
22:59:55 <cpressey> that is true, for a certain meaning of "human".
23:02:26 <cpressey> SgeoN1: seriously if you do a deadfish in REBOL i'll do one in Icon
23:02:38 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:02:45 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is a good reason not to memorize them too much. However, I think better would be to not change the numbers.
23:03:44 <shachaf> zzo38: I know! elliott started writing a new quote database that doesn't change numbers.
23:03:55 <shachaf> Or maybe he said he started writing it to stop me from writing it.
23:04:21 <zzo38> One way to don't change the numbers, is to omit the delete command, and instead make the "supress" command.
23:05:13 <shachaf> That is indeed a way to don't change the numbers.
23:07:06 <zzo38> Such a thing as that can be done easily enough in SQL, if you want to use SQL to make it.
23:07:24 <shachaf> What if I don't want to use SQL?
23:08:37 -!- elieser2241 has joined.
23:08:55 <zzo38> Then do it a different way, although depending on what you do use, it might or might not be done easily or better.
23:08:57 -!- elieser2241 has left.
23:09:23 <shachaf> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZzoWiki
23:09:35 <shachaf> I kind of want to see ZzoWiki.
23:10:02 <Bike> "No image support (this is so others won't place pornography in your article)" really
23:11:08 <ais523> what about ASCII art pornography?
23:12:40 <zzo38> ais523: Well, I suppose you can do that if you want to, but you still shouldn't place it on other people's article. Of course you can also link to whatever file you want.
23:12:52 <zzo38> ZzoWiki is currently broken; you can't see it now.
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23:31:44 <Sgeo> ....Amiga was a general-purpose PC?
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23:38:07 <elliott> Sgeo: as opposed to... what
23:38:22 <Bike> made up to scare children
23:38:23 <Sgeo> A gaming console
23:40:04 <shachaf> maybe a lowercase owl raising an eyebrow..........................................
23:42:29 <Sgeo> kmc, http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/modules-loading.html#section-7
23:42:45 <Sgeo> Including SHA-1 of the module in the header when you want to download them from the Internet...
23:43:52 <Sgeo> I have no idea
23:44:14 <Sgeo> But that section reminded me of the concerns kmc has with Planet Racket
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23:44:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, the Amiga was a general-purpose and high end computer.
23:44:56 <pikhq> Though there was, like, the Amiga CD32.
23:45:03 <pikhq> (consolized Amiga)
23:46:35 <Sgeo> #rebol is practically empty
23:46:40 <Sgeo> I wanted to ask how it compares to Tcl
23:47:15 <elliott> please don't join #lang1 to ask "lang1 vs. lang2" questions. it is trolling
23:47:34 <Sgeo> "encloak is a low strength encryption method that can be useful for hiding passwords and other such values. It is not a replacement for AES or Blowfish, but works for noncritical data.
23:47:34 <Sgeo> Do not use it for top secret information!"
23:47:48 <Sgeo> I wish I knew what the algorithm IS, not just that it's low strength
23:48:29 <Bike> elliott: how does haskell compare to python
23:48:37 <elliott> > compare "haskell" "python"
23:48:53 <shachaf> hey #esoteric, how do eso langs compare to noneso langs
23:49:32 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.rebol.org/ml-display-thread.r?m=rmlHYHQ proprietary and probably dumb
23:54:42 <Sgeo> "To test R3, you will need:
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23:54:48 <Sgeo> "At least 1 MB of disk space and 10 MB of main memory. (We just had to say that.)
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23:59:09 <pikhq> shachaf: Favorably. Non-eso langs are t3h dumbs
23:59:17 <pikhq> Who needs money anyways.