00:00:00 <Lumpio-> Also two character names that are the same as country codes are forbidden
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00:13:24 <HackEgo> 420) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
00:13:39 <kmc> 420 quote itidus20 every day
00:13:50 <kmc> i like it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~
00:14:30 <shachaf> it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~ is my worst nemesis
00:14:33 <kmc> there should be an irssi plugin that adjusts text to make this happen
00:14:49 <kmc> i forgot what this is called in typesetting
00:14:53 <kmc> related to but distinct from rivers and lakes
00:14:57 <Bike> "dicking around"
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01:26:43 <elliott> kmc: do you have any submissions to the topic-for-when-the-wsj-guy-comes competition
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01:33:08 <shachaf> Sgeo: What happened to the `olist update scheduled for Monday?
01:33:36 <Sgeo> I was in a WSJ article about Wikicities, then Wikicities turned evil. If I'm in a WSJ article about #esoteric, does this mean #esoteric is going to turn evil?
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01:34:07 <Sgeo> shachaf, you should post that question on the GiantITP forums. I'm sure it will be just fine asking that sort of question there.
01:34:09 <shachaf> #esoteric is beyond good and evil
01:34:11 <Sgeo> Again and again.
01:34:30 <shachaf> Sgeo: Why ask it at the forums when I can ask it at the source?
01:34:45 <shachaf> whoa, dude, you have an account there
01:34:57 <Sgeo> You want an `olist, have a meaningless `olist
01:35:01 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
01:35:22 <Sgeo> (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist)
01:35:31 <shachaf> It's still at 890! You liar!
01:35:37 <shachaf> You should make sure it's updated first.
01:38:08 <shachaf> How many Order of the Stick fans don't play D&D? I don't (although I do play NetHack sometimes, and am thoroughly spoiled, and since NetHack has D&D as one source of inspiration, it's not like I'm completely unaware of D&D mechanics and stuff.) Anyone who was completely unaware of D&D mechanics before OotS?
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01:38:54 <mnoqy> sounds like a grea tforum
01:39:39 <Sgeo> shachaf, I see an update
01:39:40 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/lJZUMe8.png
01:40:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: wow i must be having cache problems like oerjan
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01:50:54 <Sgeo> I have 502 followers on Twitter
01:51:18 <Sgeo> Or, well, my @oots_update account does.
01:52:36 <elliott> wow and you were in the wsj
01:53:42 <shachaf> why is there an oots_update account
01:54:02 <shachaf> why not just subscribe to RichBurlew
01:54:17 <Sgeo> shachaf, because oots_update was created before RichBurlew
01:54:27 <shachaf> yes but why is oots_update still functional
01:54:51 <Sgeo> Meh, does it really make sense to force people to switch?
01:55:12 <Sgeo> Lemme check if I at least tweeted about it
01:55:28 <Sgeo> "Rich Burlew is on Twitter! @RichBurlew"
01:55:51 <Sgeo> Which, I guess isn't quite the same as "You don't need to follow me anymore, you can just follow @RichBurlew"
01:56:02 <shachaf> You should start retweeterizing his tweeterees.
01:56:11 <kmc> elliott: is the WSJ guy actually going to come?
01:57:02 <elliott> 22:55:04 <cpressey> oh! oh! got an email response back
01:57:04 <elliott> 22:55:38 <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me."
01:57:06 <elliott> 22:55:48 <cpressey> i need a drink
01:57:09 <kmc> <shachaf> #esoteric is beyond good and evil <--- beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond death
01:57:12 <kmc> elliott: wowow
01:57:29 <elliott> 23:06:40 <cpressey> oh, and his days are tues, weds, thurs this week.
01:57:43 <Bike> the main variable here is of course zzo38's availability
01:58:20 <Sgeo> shachaf, also, if someone is following both me and oots_update but not RichBurlew that may indicate to me that they are following/stalking me specifically even with the oots_update follow
01:58:52 <coppro> I read twatter sometimes
01:58:53 <coppro> sometimes I even twaat
01:59:16 <Bike> i mostly follow twitters because it's taken me forever to find good biology blogs
01:59:29 <Bike> btw did you know that turing's most cited paper is the biology one
02:00:03 <Sgeo> twitter : tweet :: twatter : twuut
02:00:05 <Bike> after the war he kinda turned to biochemistry
02:00:20 <Bike> he wrote a paper "The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" about how shape is developed by growing organisms
02:00:46 <kmc> is it... correct
02:01:21 <Bike> well it's pretty abstract, as you might expect from a bio paper that involves considerations of symmetry-preserving transformations
02:02:01 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/zcomp/zcomp.sql The V_QUALIFY trigger seems to be too long; do you want to fix it?
02:02:11 <Bike> oh jesus, it has 7136 cites
02:02:15 <FreeFull> I think most people know that Einstein got his nobel prize for the work on the photoelectric effect
02:02:28 <zzo38> Bike: I am available now, of course.
02:02:30 <Bike> the photoelectric effect is pretty baller as far as i'm concerned
02:02:42 <Bike> shachaf: uh. yes?
02:02:55 <shachaf> i know someone whose paper has ~3000 citations or something
02:02:59 <Bike> I mean, it's not unheard of, but it's a lot more than the average.
02:03:01 <shachaf> that's like being half-turing!!
02:03:45 <Sgeo> Ok, that gave me a WTF moment for a second
02:03:46 <Sgeo> "Oprah Winfrey Verified account @Oprah
02:03:46 <Sgeo> Followed by Seth Gold"
02:03:59 <Sgeo> Some DJ named Seth Gold
02:04:02 <zzo38> Maybe I can try to fix it something else, such as making a table to store those results and then to do that instead, since I would need to repeat mostly the same V_QUALIFY trigger for each field of the VOTE table
02:04:05 <Bike> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14076813763086182113
02:04:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you available Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday?
02:04:22 <Bike> I don't actually remember what his thesis was. something something with applications to the longgermannameproblem
02:04:29 <zzo38> And that there doesn't seems the way to make a field name as a parameter
02:04:34 <Bike> the title of it, i mean
02:04:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Tuesday this week (that is tomorrow), but not all day; I should be available in the evening (my timezone is Pacific)
02:05:31 <shachaf> zzo38: I can tell your timezone is Pacific, because all the cool people have that timezone.
02:06:00 <zzo38> That isn't a very good way to tell.
02:07:17 <shachaf> What's a good way to tell?
02:07:34 <zzo38> By sending a TIME message to me
02:07:44 <Bike> wow let's see here, it's cited by krugman, von neumann, levin, wolfram, kelso, Intanagonwiwat (i don't know who this is but i like their name), lindenmayer (of l-systems), prigogine, and that's about it for name si recognize
02:09:04 <shachaf> is James Kalenius an actual name that you would use for publishing papers and things
02:10:55 <Bike> do you dislike it?
02:11:12 <kmc> FreeFull: i think almost nobody knows that
02:11:32 <kmc> if you ask the average person what einstein did, they will come up with "E=mc²" and nothing else and probably not know what it means either
02:11:48 <kmc> maybe I misunderestimate my fellow human beings
02:11:54 <copumpkin> einstein didn't pass highschool math
02:12:29 <Bike> copumpkin: http://neilcicierega.tumblr.com/post/50354803614
02:12:29 <zzo38> Einstein also said socks get holes in them.
02:12:35 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f88cbc2ae1fc13e6fa7f1ec07bdd83d/tumblr_mmpzoljQ4N1qzgnzho1_500.png http://25.media.tumblr.com/8bd807033be7887e1d08fb29763ea3b6/tumblr_mmr1tg53J21qzgnzho1_500.jpg
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02:14:21 <Bike> in his famous "annus mirabilis" papers, einstein showed that flash animations about Shaq Fu could actually be pretty funny
02:14:55 <shachaf> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942299_10151934516699466_1761459223_n.jpg
02:15:46 <Bike> i'm scared shachaf
02:18:14 <kmc> i hope the WSJ reporter has already joined and is lurking while we talk about them
02:18:17 <kmc> or is log-reading
02:18:36 <FreeFull> I don't think they know what IRC is
02:18:43 <mnoqy> but they agreed to it
02:18:58 <kmc> i assume cpressey gave instructions when he suggested irc as the interview venue
02:19:18 <elliott> kmc: didnt you read his email
02:19:22 <elliott> we literally know exactly what he said
02:19:23 <Bike> Maybe hagb4rd is the reporter.
02:19:33 <Bike> I'm just saying.
02:19:48 <elliott> "It should be held on IRC -- in the #esoteric channel on freenode." no instructions
02:20:55 <kmc> elliott has made an ass out of u and me
02:21:09 <Bike> Maybe elliott's the reporter. Maybe I'm the reporter. Maybe we're all the reporter
02:21:32 <Bike> I am the wall street journal. Hear me
02:21:34 <shachaf> elliott "the reporter" Bike
02:21:35 <kmc> who will report the reporter
02:21:58 <kmc> should i tell the reporter that i used copies of WSJ as food for oyster mushrooms
02:22:20 <Bike> "In the first place, for instance, men are more often found standing on their feet than their heads."
02:22:29 <elliott> do you have the "drugs" ready for our interview
02:22:45 <kmc> insert hunter s thompson reference
02:22:46 <Bike> the finest oyster hallucinogens
02:22:59 <FreeFull> Sure, the "dogs" are "stuffed" full of the "drugs"
02:22:59 <shachaf> Bike: that sounds like _Mathematics Made Difficult_.........
02:23:02 <shachaf> but it's actually turing??
02:23:12 <kmc> 'Pleurotus means "side ear", from Greek πλευρή (pleurē), "side"[4] + ὠτός (ōtos), genitive of οὖς (ous), "ear".'
02:23:20 <kmc> that's the genus of oyster mushrooms
02:23:40 <elliott> hm should i say my favourite esolang is Esme or that other one
02:23:50 <elliott> i've forgotten what that other one is
02:23:54 <kmc> oyster mushrooms eat nematodes
02:24:02 <Bike> shachaf: good book
02:25:03 <mnoqy> id like to see a report on fuckfuck
02:25:13 <elliott> the REAL joke: everyone (including me) is going to try too hard to be stupid and it'll end up awkward and unfunny and the journalist will give up and we'll regret being jerks
02:25:24 <mnoqy> the real joke is i wont do that
02:25:29 <mnoqy> ill play off of you guys trying too hard
02:25:32 <mnoqy> thats how itll go down
02:25:51 <Bike> elliott: oh you put it better.
02:25:58 <mnoqy> the real joke is ill sleep through it tho
02:26:19 <zzo38> If you can tell me (and everyone else) what time we are supposed to be available on this IRC for this interview, then we can try to do that, please.
02:26:25 <Bike> let me just consult the loge
02:27:06 <Bike> oh i said: "it'll probably be boring"
02:27:37 <elliott> zzo38: you'll have to ask chris, maybe he will know by tomorrow
02:27:53 <Bike> because people will try hard to be jerks for about two seconds before remembering that that's actually kind of a boring thing to do
02:28:38 <elliott> well i mean i'm still going to give nonsense because i literally can't do anything else
02:29:07 <zzo38> Then let's the people who will be not entirely 100% nonsense.
02:29:21 <Bike> let's the people indeed. i will not be letting myself
02:31:29 <elliott> so this has to be the first time a journalist has used irc since like 1992
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02:37:28 <Sgeo> I want to be here for this :(
02:37:43 <kmc> you seem sad that you want to be here for this
02:37:53 <zzo38> But you should know what time it is, to do so!
02:38:04 <zzo38> I also want to know what time it should be!
02:38:06 <kmc> put the time in the topic
02:39:23 <Sgeo> What if it's MissPiggy or cheater pulling a prank?
02:39:33 <Sgeo> I don't know if either of those two are really the sort
02:39:35 <kmc> ROBOT HOOOOUSE!
02:44:02 <elliott> cheaters busy trolling #haskell these days and did you just pick MissPiggy out of a list of banned users or something because what
02:44:51 <elliott> also do you really think chris wouldn't check the reliability of such an email before putting a response on his website and asking us about it
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03:05:20 <Sgeo> elliott, there are banned users besides cheater and MissPiggy?
03:05:45 <elliott> you realise misspiggy has been back like five times since using that name and isn't banned right
03:06:03 <elliott> but yes dbelange is banned too
03:06:59 <Sgeo> That name sounds vaguely but not fully familiar
03:11:43 <copumpkin> elliott: what was the most recent?
03:11:45 <Sgeo> Who was dbelange?
03:12:26 <elliott> copumpkin: uhhh i think j-invariant or crystal-cola
03:12:45 <elliott> Sgeo: guy who came here a few times to troll badly
03:12:57 <elliott> coppro's fault or something
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03:13:40 <Sgeo> Someone by that name was banned on Wikipedia
03:13:44 <elliott> copumpkin: there was someone in #haskell recently who reminded me of her but it was just a hunch and I've forgotten by now
03:13:46 <copumpkin> can't remember who I spoke to who knew him in person, said he was smart but weird and enjoyed trolling way too much
03:14:05 <elliott> coppro said his university gets complaints from random IRC servers about him or something
03:14:06 <copumpkin> there was someone with a mathy sounding name that reminded me
03:14:10 <coppro> copumpkin: I've met him
03:14:23 <copumpkin> coppro: have any more color to add?
03:14:25 <coppro> copumpkin: he's a grad of my school and pops by every now and then
03:14:31 <kmc> i used to troll /r/atheism
03:14:37 <coppro> nope, you about summed it up
03:14:51 <coppro> last I saw him he was trolling ##math by posting questions taken from /r/math
03:14:56 <coppro> in the chair behind me
03:15:10 <coppro> he's now studying symbolic logic somewhere
03:15:16 <kmc> who was the guy who trolled #haskell by taking GHC bug reports, obfuscating the reproducers, and then asking why the code didn't work
03:15:27 <Sgeo> http://www.bitchx.com/log/math-f/math-f-11-Feb-2010/math-f-11-Feb-2010-08.php
03:15:33 <elliott> i would take that over the usual #haskell trolling
03:15:37 <Sgeo> That page is called 'dbelange troll'
03:17:11 <elliott> i flagged a guy on SO today for asking questions like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15865631/type-a-is-not-equal-to-type-a-in-haskell-ghci-interpreter
03:17:20 <elliott> oh i meant http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15815931/haskell-missing-identifier-even-though-its-defined-one-line-above
03:17:26 <kmc> wait pokoko222 and MissPiggy are also trolls
03:17:29 <kmc> is this channel like #troll
03:17:40 <elliott> misspiggy isn't a troll per se
03:17:49 <copumpkin> and pokoko was just ridiculously overenthusiastic, I thought
03:18:00 <elliott> i miss having her around actually
03:19:11 <kmc> what did she do
03:19:26 <shachaf> remember badtruffle? what a troublemaker
03:19:40 <copumpkin> she was pretty knowledgeable but had a really big temper
03:19:49 <copumpkin> used to talk a lot in #agda and #epigram
03:20:25 <elliott> she got frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell and here and put them on ignore and complained about #haskell people here in stuff and eventually left or got banned for whatever, this happened like two or three times and she'd appear again under another nick months later
03:20:58 <elliott> i was kind of a jerk to her at some points and i regret it :(
03:21:23 <copumpkin> hunt her down and ask her to come back?
03:21:54 <mnoqy> what name does she even use these days
03:21:59 <kmc> it does make sense to get frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell
03:22:05 <elliott> well I don't know how and it'd feel stalkery, there is http://muaddibspace.blogspot.co.uk/ and http://natural-deductions.blogspot.co.uk/ but they don't have any contact info (though cpressey left a comment trying to get in touch once, I don't know if he got any response)
03:22:09 <kmc> i don't complain about specific people here very much, though
03:22:13 <elliott> I think she deleted all her reddit accounts
03:22:45 <copumpkin> wasn't she adjunction or something like that
03:22:53 <elliott> kmc: by almost everyone I mean incl. regulars, ops and so on
03:23:12 <elliott> (not that she was entirely wrong about it but it wasn't an ideal way of expressing her irritations)
03:23:31 <shachaf> I can understand getting frustrated with certain #haskell ops.
03:24:41 <shachaf> #haskell-ops has frustrating people too. for example me.
03:25:12 <lambdabot> monochrom says: #haskell-blah has brilliant people too. for example me.
03:25:19 <elliott> kmc: did shachaf tell you about your moment of fame
03:26:03 <shachaf> you mean when i quoted him out of context in -ops?
03:26:28 <elliott> I guess there is a github account with repos too, so probably those have an email
03:26:36 <elliott> I think she might hate me though, so probably I am not the best person to make contact anyway
03:29:22 <kmc> what did i do on coq club
03:30:07 <copumpkin> will let y'all know if she replies
03:30:44 <elliott> kmc: copumpkin didn't mean you, if that's what you meant
03:31:01 <kmc> what was my moment of fame
03:31:03 <copumpkin> oh I meant I'd found a promising email address for her on coq-club
03:36:18 * pikhq_ feels slightly weird seeing "muaddibspace" up there.
03:36:25 * pikhq_ has two gerbils, named "Muad" and "Dib".
03:39:27 <Bike> elliott: what the heck is the point of the stack overflow question
03:39:44 <elliott> that's why i flagged the guy!!
03:39:59 <Bike> what possible motivation could you have
03:40:23 <elliott> copumpkin: on reddit at least yeah
03:40:38 <copumpkin> found a random comment on a blog under that
03:41:48 <elliott> copumpkin: did you hear this channel is getting interviewed by the WSJ??????????
03:42:01 <elliott> truly the golden age of esolangs is upon us
03:42:11 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/wsj.html
03:47:34 <mnoqy> 2k13 year of esolang on the desktop
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03:57:17 <Sgeo> I don't know if being able to run Linux and Windows at the same time is worth losing being able to play with Virtualbox
03:58:11 * pikhq_ snickers at the zzo38 suggestion
04:05:09 <zzo38> Although I have things to say about it, I am not the only one, so it should be done in the IRC that everyone can answer.
04:06:49 <kmc> yesterday I had the pleasure of explaining why there are more ordinal numbers than cardinal numbers
04:06:52 <kmc> fsvo 'more'
04:07:27 <Bike> because ordinals are orderings of sets and cardinals are just sizes?
04:08:38 <kmc> not orderings of sets
04:09:00 <kmc> so, if all you have is sets, you can construct the natural numbers inductively like so: 0 = {}, 1 = {0}, 2 = {0,1}, 3 = {0,1,2}, etc
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04:09:20 <kmc> every natural number is the set of numbers less than it
04:09:26 <elliott> um that's not valid without the axiom of infinity kmc
04:09:44 <elliott> so it's not a construction but an appeal to an axiom!!!
04:09:57 <elliott> sorry i thought the idea of doing this in #esoteric was so that you could have everyone be annoying and pedantic about it
04:10:13 <Bike> no the idea is that he says a thing that's less wrong than the thing i said
04:10:23 <kmc> elliott: "constructing things from sets" means working in the axioms of a set theory
04:10:40 <kmc> and since I didn't say which one, you would assume ZF
04:10:40 <elliott> ok i will allow it.... this time
04:10:59 <elliott> actually i assumed you were working in New Foundations
04:11:05 <elliott> that's a total lie i just wanted to annoy you by saying it
04:11:33 <kmc> anyway. the set ℕ = {0,1,2,...} of *all* natural numbers looks like one of these
04:11:50 <kmc> so we call that the first transfinite ordinal and name it ω rather than ℕ for some reason
04:12:36 <kmc> but then you can also build the set ω ∪ {ω} and what would you call that other than ω+1?
04:13:09 <kmc> and you can make ω+2, ω+3, ω*2, ω*ω, etc
04:13:41 <coppro> kmc: I don't get it. What is ω*2?
04:13:45 <kmc> basically since you know how to do arithmetic on naturals, and those are just sets, you can apply the same operations to these transfinite ordinals
04:14:19 <kmc> and ω ≠ ω+1 ≠ ω+2; they are sets with different elements
04:14:35 <kmc> but they can be put into bijection with each other, so they have the same cardinality (size)
04:14:36 <Bike> coppro: just define multiplication on the naturals-as-sets and then apply that to these weirdo things
04:14:53 <kmc> right. i'm trying to remember how multiplication on naturals-as-sets works
04:15:11 <coppro> it's not obvious, hence why I asked ;)
04:15:13 <kmc> oh nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic
04:15:32 <Bike> i think you'll find that it's Trivial because I don't want to remember enough to explain it
04:15:37 <elliott> prediction: at some point someone will vandalise one of the axioms on the ZFC wikipedia article
04:15:46 <elliott> and mathematicians will actually adopt these vandalised axioms
04:15:54 <elliott> because they looked them up to remember
04:16:11 <Bike> prediction: nobody actually uses ZFC besides set theorists anyway
04:16:26 <elliott> and nobody likes set theorists ~type theory 4eva~
04:16:41 <Bike> the same would work (not work) for martin lof axioms, i'm sure
04:16:42 <elliott> i'm sorry that you've taken it upon yourself to be so wrong
04:17:43 <Bike> except that presently type theoretic research is more popular than set theoretic research, probably, so maybe researchers get tats of judgements or whatever
04:18:08 <elliott> i don't think type theory research is more popular than set theory research :P
04:19:01 <Bike> you think? i mean obviously some of it's where i hang out (here) but the most recent set theory thing i've read wasn't ZFC anyway
04:19:20 <zzo38> Z-Comp #1 is now open for entry!
04:20:26 <elliott> Bike: it's all esoteric large cardinals crap
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04:20:44 <Bike> well yeah but i mean how many people care about that
04:20:53 <Bike> compared to whatever the fuck type theorists do
04:21:06 <elliott> well mostly only computer scientists compare about type theory and generally those are considered to "not count"
04:21:20 <Bike> but there are a lot of them!
04:21:31 <Bike> i thought mathematicians proper were more concerned with like topology usually
04:21:36 <elliott> also everything is usually formulated in sets, if it's formulated at all
04:21:40 <Bike> and hey guess how easy it is to get from there to typeshits
04:21:52 <elliott> ok but you have to realise how fucking crazy homotopy type theory is.
04:21:52 <Bike> well sets are super easy and pretty familiar
04:21:57 <coppro> Bike: I'm concerned with things that start with q
04:22:04 <Bike> yes it's crazy /but/ so is algebraic topology
04:22:11 <coppro> things that start with q
04:22:21 <Bike> coppro: i'm. what are you talking about.
04:22:23 <Bike> fuck matroids though.
04:22:30 <coppro> quantum this, quantum that
04:22:40 <Bike> isn't that like physics usually
04:22:46 <Bike> with an occasional CSist
04:23:08 <coppro> and a shitton of combinatorialists and cryptographers in the middle
04:23:26 <Bike> combinatorics is the bomb
04:23:39 <Bike> can you explain combinatorics facts such as: why i am shit at it
04:24:00 * coppro gets to spend tomorrow trying to figure out why sage and nauty appear to have different notions of canonical graph labelings and what to do about it
04:26:58 <elliott> kmc: your explanation went off the rails a bit
04:28:29 <Bike> because he explained it?
04:28:47 <coppro> because I interrupted with helpful questions
04:29:06 <coppro> since I refuse to accept that the definition of ordinal arithmentic is "etc."
04:29:21 <Bike> some mathematician you are
04:29:42 <shachaf> <#haskeller> well getLine :: IO String contains a thunk that when evaluated reads characters of a line from standard input
04:29:47 <Bike> anyway is it actually formalized that there are more ordinals than cardinals? i mean obviously you can't take the cardinality of all cardinals
04:29:53 <shachaf> wrong things considered harmful :'(
04:30:02 <coppro> Bike: the cardinals are a strict subset of the ordinals
04:30:24 <coppro> however, the way this works in practice is *really* wonky
04:30:37 <kmc> shachaf: :(
04:30:42 <kmc> shachaf: aren't you an op
04:30:47 <kmc> can't you tell them they're wrong
04:30:50 <kmc> and be listened to
04:31:26 <coppro> because the map α -> א_α is injective
04:31:31 <coppro> but it has many fixed points
04:32:29 <shachaf> The annoying part is that they were "helping" someone else.
04:32:32 <elliott> kmc: i told them they were wrong
04:32:35 <shachaf> I don't really know what to do.
04:32:45 <elliott> but i was a bit mean and got called out on it :P
04:32:59 <kmc> is this particular person often wrong?
04:33:02 <elliott> (not that i was trying to sound mean)
04:33:08 <elliott> i've never seen their name before
04:33:14 <Bike> so how would you describe getLine
04:33:17 <kmc> then i'm not sure there's much you can do other than correct them
04:33:21 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
04:33:36 <Bike> is that also wrong
04:33:40 <Bike> what is wrong what is write
04:33:44 <kmc> Bike: it's an IO action and *executing* it is what produces the line
04:33:47 <kmc> not *evaluating*
04:33:56 <Bike> how is that different from the thunk thing
04:34:01 <Bike> oh, "evaluating"
04:34:10 <shachaf> Evaluation is distinct from execution.
04:34:19 <Bike> right yeah ok got it nerds
04:34:20 <elliott> i don't even like to speak of execution of IO actions
04:34:23 <shachaf> Execution is something that an interpreter does.
04:34:26 <elliott> it makes people think it's something haskell can do
04:34:38 <kmc> shachaf: preferably correct them with a link to the faq (PLUG PLUG PLUG)
04:34:57 <shachaf> Also I link to the FAQ a lot!
04:35:13 <elliott> someone wondered why it didn't cover some common thing a day or so ago!!
04:35:18 <elliott> if only you had been there to Hear The Need
04:35:18 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep '<shachaf> @where faq' ALL | wc -l
04:35:29 <kmc> if only it were a wiki and other people could add stuff
04:35:30 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
04:35:42 <kmc> elliott has edited the FAQ though
04:35:44 <elliott> kmc: hey, i edited it once
04:35:44 <kmc> so props to him
04:36:08 <shachaf> <#haskeller> 1. learn about monoids (which most people find pretty easy), 2. learn about endofunctors, 3. now you know about monads
04:36:14 <shachaf> i can't help but feel slightly responsible :'(
04:36:23 <elliott> shachaf: you should give different #haskellers different identifiers
04:36:33 <shachaf> That was <#otherhaskeller>
04:36:38 <Bike> you're giving me an image of the true platonic haskeller
04:36:49 <Bike> "In addition, some people write articles about advanced math, using Haskell syntax as their notation. These articles are interesting, but the connection to everyday programming work is usually remote." very elliott
04:36:59 <kmc> "#haskeller" could be an image macro like Scumbag Steve or whatever
04:37:16 <elliott> no it couldn't don't say things like that
04:37:20 <shachaf> Just what reddit.com/r/haskell needs!
04:37:22 <Bike> i saw an image macro comparing feminists negatively to MRAs today
04:37:26 <Bike> so fuck image macros clearly
04:37:38 <kmc> time to burn down this internet and get a new one
04:37:46 <elliott> Bike: i don't like that answer so much "Not My Preferred Part Of The Faq"
04:38:14 <elliott> best faq section is... section 5, it contains all the wrong things people ask for
04:38:18 <Bike> i need more insults
04:38:42 <Bike> "I'm making an RPG. Should I define a type for each kind of monster, and a type class for them?" what the heck
04:39:06 <kmc> shachaf: maybe you can bother other people to edit the faq more? my purpose in writing it was not like "i am kmc and here are the eternal truths of haskell" but like, a starting point for The Community to build a Consensus about how to explain things
04:39:15 <shachaf> Clearly you should make a *kind* for each kind of monster.
04:39:26 <elliott> kmc: getting a wiki account is annoying and you need one to edit
04:39:33 <elliott> kmc: and nobody edits the wiki and it's a bunch of work
04:39:37 <zzo38> I think the correct answer depends on a lot of things.
04:39:38 <elliott> i doubt most people even know you wrote it all
04:39:45 <elliott> as in, that's not why they're not editing
04:39:49 <Bike> gotta make my RPG isomorphic to lob's theorem
04:39:53 <kmc> if there's a Getting kmc Back To #haskell project then getting other people to edit the FAQ would help
04:39:59 <kmc> elliott: oh ,I know it's not why they're not editing
04:40:03 <elliott> wow you discovered our secret plot
04:40:07 <shachaf> kmc: It's much easier to Cale it in IRC than to edit the FAQ.
04:40:08 <elliott> we have club meetings and everything
04:40:19 <kmc> transferring it to an easier to edit venue would also be a fine plan
04:40:20 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Now I can just point people at a readable and relevant paper instead of having to Cale it.
04:40:44 <shachaf> kmc: I've answered a few stackoverflow.com questions! That's like adding to a mega-FAQ.
04:40:59 <kmc> Ever Asked Questions
04:41:04 <shachaf> My highest-voted answer is a pseudo-monad-tutorial. :-(
04:41:07 <Bike> man i should just not talk yes
04:41:31 <zzo38> To make RPG computer games I think SQL is not a bad programming language for doing so.
04:41:50 <kmc> SELECT key; INSERT key INTO door;
04:41:52 <elliott> Bike: it's what monochrom calls "lecture replays"
04:42:16 <zzo38> kmc: That isn't how it is done, though.
04:42:23 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep '<Cale>.*double (double 5' ALL | wc -l
04:42:24 <kmc> Bike: basically if you ask a Frequently Asked Question in #haskell then 2-5 people start typing out their favorite boilerplate answer into the channel
04:42:34 <Bike> yeah i know how that goes
04:42:39 <kmc> maybe then they'll argue about which one is better
04:42:42 <kmc> or just talk past each other
04:42:53 <kmc> this pissed me off and eventually I quit
04:43:01 <elliott> kmc: i think it's more like two boilerplate answers nowadays
04:43:03 <mnoqy> "double (double"???????????
04:43:10 <mnoqy> how many people do @faq
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04:43:19 <shachaf> mnoqy: "i think it's an in-n-out thing"
04:43:20 <kmc> people weren't interested in collaborating to find a good way to explain stuff
04:43:23 <elliott> mnoqy: cale has an example he uses to explain lazy evaluation
04:43:28 <elliott> it involves reduction of some doublings
04:43:35 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcEaHT9mt-Y good AI
04:43:36 <elliott> but i didn't realise he'd used it that many times
04:43:45 <elliott> shachaf: wait does that match multiple lines of the reduction
04:44:19 <shachaf> OK, I'll be fairer and only count one per day.
04:45:16 <shachaf> shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log/haskell$ grep -l '<Cale>.*double (double 5' 0* 1* | wc -l
04:45:43 <mnoqy> tha'ts still a lot
04:46:49 <mnoqy> whoa thats freaky shachaf he just joined
04:46:54 <mnoqy> are you in "correspondance"
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04:50:10 <kmc> shachaf: do you think the ops and other regulators understand why i wrote the FAQ and why I care that other people edit it?
04:52:31 <kmc> er I meant to write "regulars", lolol
04:52:53 <elliott> i was imagining a beautiful #haskell bureaucracy
04:52:54 <Bike> kmc are you like the lost old man of that channel
04:53:00 <kmc> what would that entail exactly
04:53:27 <Bike> thousands of years ago, the great sage, kmc, set down the Frequent Questions for all the people of this channel
04:53:57 <elliott> kmc: btw it is great that you messaged preflex because everyone who does "seen kmc" gets 05:53:41 <preflex> kmc was last seen 364 days, 21 hours, 31 minutes and 13 seconds ago, saying: <private message>
04:54:08 <elliott> (this has happened multiple times)
04:54:11 <shachaf> imo you should talk about why you left and what you're unhappy with etc. rather than have me quote you out of context in -ops, if you want people to know
04:54:23 <kmc> i have an unposted blog post about it
04:54:43 <kmc> it's not important to me personally that people know exactly why i left
04:55:09 <kmc> I have some ideas about how to make the channel better, and several of the ops know what they are (via #esoteric mainly I guess?!?!?!?)
04:55:18 <kmc> so I guess I have done my part
04:55:30 <kmc> and it's up to y'all to implement them or not, as you see fit
04:55:37 <elliott> sort of worry that a public blog post will stir up drama / people going "omg did you hear this channel sux" in #haskell / trolls realising they can join and be catered to with helpfulness for hours (this already happens to some extent, targetting at least one person known to be helpful)
04:55:45 <kmc> elliott: yeah
04:55:49 <kmc> that was one reason not to post it
04:56:00 <kmc> also it would break a longstanding rule of not posting fluff on my blog
04:56:01 <shachaf> There is a lot of disagreement between ops on the right way to handle things.
04:56:02 <kmc> fsvo fluff
04:56:02 <Bike> this sounds complicated
04:56:04 <elliott> maybe you could make a super secret post and shachaf can drop it into -ops!!
04:56:11 <kmc> yeah an anonymous pastebin!!!!
04:56:17 <shachaf> Including at least one who says that he likes feeding trolls.
04:56:26 <elliott> that's not quite the kind of super secret i meant but that works too
04:57:04 <elliott> ok here's what we do: we make kmc a #haskell op just so he can talk in -ops without actually rejoining #haskell
04:57:19 <kmc> can my title be "Consigliere"
04:57:32 <elliott> the wsj guy reading this is totally gonna scoop us
04:57:41 <elliott> write all about the #Haskell Schism
04:58:02 <shachaf> haskell ain't no esolang!!
04:58:08 <kmc> ("fluff" isn't quite the right word because communities are important and all... I guess it's more about the fact that I'm far from an expert on running online communities and I don't want to make big public proclamations about how it should be done)
04:58:44 <shachaf> I try to make the point that people don't notice the cost of valuable people who leave the channel because they're so tired of it all.
04:58:55 <shachaf> You're an obvious example but there are surely others.
04:59:03 <kmc> i resisted having a blog at all for a while because i didn't want to be one of those Hacker News blogjerks who is constantly spouting an uninformed opinion about something or other
04:59:05 <elliott> there's me at various points (like I said)
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04:59:25 <elliott> i've taken #haskell off my autojoin for being annoying and noisy at various points
04:59:25 <kmc> so I try to stick to things that are some combination of a) objective fact, and b) fields where I am actually an expert
04:59:31 <elliott> or more commonly reinstalled and just not bothered to join it because it was no fun
04:59:48 <kmc> shachaf: thanks for saying i'm valuable :)
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05:00:13 <kmc> another one of my suggestions was just to make #haskell-in-depth be actually a thing, somehow
05:00:30 <elliott> it's called #haskell-lens and i'm not kidding
05:00:34 <kmc> in fact I stayed in #haskell-in-depth for a while after I left #haskell
05:00:35 <kmc> haha really?
05:00:44 <shachaf> Well, #haskell-lens is really #haskell-edwardk.
05:00:45 <kmc> #haskell-edwardk
05:00:55 <kmc> ok well maybe I will join some day!
05:01:01 <elliott> yeah but people talk about the scarce amounts of non-edwardk advanced stuff there is too sometimes!
05:01:05 <kmc> thanks for the recommendation
05:01:08 <shachaf> I like the time when we had a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth.
05:01:24 <shachaf> And a somethingorother tutorial in #-ops?
05:01:32 <kmc> is that like having sex in the living room because all your friends are having a party in your bedroom?
05:01:39 <shachaf> Someone got banned and went into #-ops to appeal it, and then just shifted the original discussion to there.
05:01:51 <kmc> now they have two problems
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05:05:46 <Bike> kmc: i had the same worry with my blog (except i'm not an expert in anything). i think i've done pretty well by being descriptive rather than normative, and also avoiding those "why x sucks" or "comparing x vs y" type posts
05:05:57 <kmc> 'but those get so many pageviews!'
05:06:12 <Bike> problem solved: nobody reads my blog anyway
05:06:16 <kmc> right another obvious trick is: don't care about pageviews and don't have ads so you don't have a financial incentive for pageviews
05:06:26 <kmc> i fail a bit at not caring about pageviews
05:06:36 <kmc> at least I find it interesting to see which posts are most popular
05:06:43 <Bike> well it's one thing to say "i don't write popularity", but it's still nice to see your stuff getting read
05:06:46 <elliott> imo kmc doesn't update his blog enough
05:06:48 <Bike> for popularity*
05:06:53 <kmc> that's right
05:07:03 <elliott> he hasn't updated for almost as long as arcane sentiment!
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05:07:40 <Bike> moderation rather than abstention, bla bla bla
05:07:53 <Bike> "hm i should write a post about buddhism and ascetism as relates to hacker news"
05:08:00 <kmc> oh wow kernel JIT spraying is #2 now
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05:08:15 <shachaf> i don't read Bike's weblog
05:08:22 <kmc> almost caught up to quasicrystals, which was far and away #1 because of its non-tech stoner appeal
05:08:33 <kmc> (ok not everyone who likes pretty pictures is a stoner but you know what i mean)
05:08:51 <Bike> what if you had pretty pictures of jit spraying. think of the pageviews
05:09:13 <Bike> alt. embrace the fact that "jit spraying" sounds pornographic
05:09:31 <elliott> kmc: i stared at the quasicrystal animation stoner-style, i admit
05:09:38 <kmc> elliott: did it stare back
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05:09:56 <mnoqy> quasicrystal animation????? is it pretty
05:10:15 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/10/quasicrystals-as-sums-of-waves-in-plane.html
05:10:23 <Bike> have you ever catalyzed a reaction...... i mean REALLY catalyzed a reaction
05:10:26 <mnoqy> ah yeah that's pretty pretty
05:10:35 <shachaf> hey kmc is coming to visit in, uh, 2 days?
05:10:41 <Bike> never seen 'em catal
05:10:49 <kmc> http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/ has a ton of great stuff
05:10:53 <kmc> if you like trippy gifs of math stuff
05:10:59 <Bike> ok wow yeah that's pretty stonery
05:10:59 <kmc> and/or mathematica
05:11:07 <kmc> Bike: yes there's a pot leaf about 30 pages in
05:11:15 <kmc> based on http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CannabisCurve.html
05:11:22 <Bike> i meant your post but yeah
05:11:36 <kmc> also there are periodic adverts for some kind of meditative practice
05:11:40 <kmc> on intothecontinuum i mean
05:11:43 <kmc> shachaf: yeah I am
05:12:02 <shachaf> i was going to make a "stoner?" joke but then it was sad :(
05:12:24 <Bike> on tumblr i get followed by a couple weirdo meditative hippie people
05:12:27 <Bike> i'm not really sure why
05:12:31 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/43b227c8b2b7b5e76e9a8269a1ce8d38/tumblr_mg4re6ASry1qfjvexo1_500.gif ok stop unzipping my brain plz
05:12:50 <mnoqy> is that a stoner phrase
05:13:08 <kmc> it's weird because i know some o fthese look v. familiar from my own renderings
05:13:19 <kmc> but i never published them
05:13:29 <kmc> it's like we both took the same photo of the platonic realm
05:13:37 <Bike> http://wetwareontologies.tumblr.com/ ?????
05:13:53 <shachaf> plato isn't even a planet anymore
05:14:01 <kmc> the 'unzipping' gif reminds me of salvia a bit
05:14:03 <kmc> shachaf: haha
05:14:17 <kmc> Bike: did you see http://screenshotsofdespair.tumblr.com/
05:14:26 <Bike> oh no this one http://memeengine.tumblr.com/
05:14:33 <Bike> "You know you’re tackling a difficult subject when you use a metaphor with Quantum Fields to clarify things." like whoa, man
05:14:51 <Bike> mnoqy: i'm not sure if it would be worse if it was just reddit gifs or something
05:14:55 <elliott> mnoqy: the prettier quasicrystal thing is when you stand back
05:15:07 <Bike> "The Plane of Immanence is Deleuze’s poetic term for underlying reality… likely it’s purposely vague about whether that reality is physical, material, or of some other sort. At any rate, it is objective. Concepts seem to be ways to view that reality, and these are subjective. For example, I could examine a tree using the concept: Tree, but I could equally well examine it using the concept: Cells, or the concept: Atoms. Or Energy, or
05:15:28 <elliott> Bike: Science... technology... literature... it's all philosophy when you dig deep enough isn't it?
05:15:33 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/2337eae56982599aff1fd457dea38e01/tumblr_mn4viaoIb01s2jikwo1_500.jpg sort of want a big poster of this
05:15:42 <shachaf> kmc: want a backpack with a matasano logo on it??
05:15:53 <kmc> are they going to give me one anyway?
05:15:54 <Bike> elliott: the great thing is, he has more readers than i ever will
05:16:15 <elliott> i fuckin read that as monsanto
05:16:20 <Bike> kmc: Do you know what painting that's from? I assume it's some martyrdom
05:16:27 <Bike> i did too elliott. we can be terrible together
05:16:39 <kmc> i don't know
05:16:46 <kmc> elliott: yeah me too often, and everyone else will forever
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05:17:37 <Bike> my favorite whatever dot tumblr dot com is probably windows95tips, i'm banal
05:18:19 <Bike> who reads text posts? nobody that's who
05:19:14 <kmc> http://drilbert.tumblr.com/
05:19:47 <Bike> shachaf: https://twitter.com/TumblrTXT
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05:25:16 <Bike> http://www.alanturing.net/turing_archive/graphics/ibsen.JPEG programming in the 50s sure did suck
05:26:43 <zzo38> Do you want to enter Z-Comp?
05:27:38 <zzo38> Bike: Is that some programming language? What is it? How does that form work?
05:28:43 <Bike> It's a programming language, it's a cellular automata program, and I have no idea.
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05:29:45 <zzo38> If anyone figure it out, will a clone be made of the system, implemented in C or something like that?
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05:30:16 <Bike> I think the computer was a Ferranti Mark I.
05:31:20 <DHeadshot> The design for which became the Ferranti after some modification.
05:31:55 <Bike> Loos like the characters are just encoding of pentets
05:32:07 <Bike> what an incredible fucking pain
05:32:11 <DHeadshot> Unless of course jumping to conclusions based on the word "Manchester" at the top is a bad idea...
05:32:45 <Bike> lol, when the thing came out a neurosurgeon was like "uh until it can write poetry it's not REALLY a brain"
05:33:09 <DHeadshot> Could of course be the Manchester Baby - the first computer to make music!
05:33:28 <Bike> well the program was written by turing, so it could probably be any of them really
05:33:40 <kmc> "Pray, Mr. Babbage" would be a good name for an esolang
05:33:45 <kmc> itt esolangs are like bands?
05:35:31 <zzo38> kmc: OK make some "Pray, Mr. Babbage" or put in list of ideas in the section about idea of names.
05:35:48 <shachaf> i,i "would be a good name for a language to write quines in when preceded by its quotation"
05:35:55 <kmc> ow my brain
05:36:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, OK, maybe it is.
05:36:28 <Bike> "[Turing] died while in the middle of this groundbreaking work, leaving a large pile of handwritten notes and some programs. This material is still not fully understood." so link it, jerks
05:37:10 <kmc> maybe it's a halting oracle O_O
05:37:35 <Bike> but no it's probably something about pinecone developmenet
05:37:45 <mnoqy> very groundbreaking
05:38:11 <mnoqy> you biologists have weird priorities
05:38:31 <Bike> dude pinecones are hard
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05:51:44 <zzo38> The theme of Z-Comp #1 is "siderotil"; but maybe this is no good... what are your idaes about it?
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06:01:43 <kmc> PERFORM UNTIL 0 = 1 DISPLAY "Penus " WITH NO ADVANCING END-PERFORM.
06:03:02 <zzo38> What does "WITH NO ADVANCING" mean?
06:03:18 <kmc> zzo38: no newline
06:03:41 <Bike> http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/pdthelp/v1r1/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.entcobol.doc_3.4%2Ftpbeg16b.htm it's cool how it might have a newline anyway
06:04:06 <zzo38> kmc: That was my guess.
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06:37:16 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 anyone want to run this on an actual mainframe :)
06:37:40 <shachaf> mainframe is usually a function
06:37:59 <Bike> it's just not the same if it's not handwritten on one of those cards
06:51:24 <shachaf> http://mashable.com/2013/05/23/hp-envy-touchsmart-14/
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07:13:59 <FireFly> shachaf: I read OotS and don't play D&D (not counting D&D-inspired games such as Neverwinter Nights... but I hardly knew what I was doing when I was playing that anyway)
07:18:25 <mnoqy> FireFly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-98796.html
07:18:29 <zzo38> Since I make recordings of D&D games, well, it is almost related to your statement, I suppose.
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07:24:20 <zzo38> I want to make a total of the votes based on something between the sum of votes and the average of votes; what would be a good way?
07:31:37 <zzo38> This is a messages posted on Wiktionary: "Wikitionary has too many made up words. I am presuming to make word games easier to play."
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07:37:18 <elliott> cpressey: i can't sleep because i don't want to miss the interview. send help
07:40:29 <cpressey> elliott: is help in the form of juggalos ok? they don't have anything else to do while waiting for their test results so i could tell them to visit Hexham for a few days
07:41:23 <zzo38> What date/time is interview, precisely? I would need to know what it is, please!
07:44:17 <shachaf> FireFly: That was a quote.
07:44:22 <cpressey> zzo38: i'm thinking of proposing 4PM thursday. UTC-5 (EST). if he can't do that he's out fri-sun so the next slot would be the following monday
07:45:44 <cpressey> er, i guess i meant EDT, not EST
07:46:09 <shachaf> my plans involve not talking
07:46:19 <cpressey> shachaf: you are wise, but also boring.
07:46:23 <shachaf> what if this wsj person likes #esoteric so much that they decide to stay!!
07:46:29 <shachaf> then i'll never be able to talk in here again
07:46:44 <elliott> also, i will decline to ask about the juggalos
07:47:00 <shachaf> elliott: You haven't even been offered! It's rude to decline.
07:47:07 <shachaf> Been offered to ask, I mean.
07:47:08 <elliott> if i sleep today and then the day after!
07:47:25 <elliott> will i be able to sleep tomorrow with the excitement of the wall street journal hanging over me tho
07:47:43 <cpressey> i can propose tomorrow instead of thursday and just get this over with
07:47:50 <elliott> but of course it depends on zzo38 and others
07:47:53 <cpressey> also: http://www.jsvine.com/ <-- the person
07:48:01 <elliott> oh boy we're on a first domain name basis now
07:48:09 <cpressey> since he knows who we are it seems fairs
07:48:16 <elliott> oh, he's actually a programmer
07:48:24 <elliott> that makes it a bit less fun
07:49:05 <zzo38> cpressey: I will be available the following Monday, but probably not Thursday. Now just see what other people think, including yourself, of course.
07:49:12 <elliott> "A Chrome extension for declaring "tab bankruptcy" without losing all your links." this is uncomfortably resonant with me
07:49:34 <cpressey> i decline to speculate what he "actually" is, but he contacted me in the capacity of a reporter, saying "I'm a reporter", so that's how I'm treating him
07:50:01 <cpressey> zzo38: how is tomorrow (wednesday) for you?
07:50:37 <elliott> cpressey: by "actually" i meant as opposed to not a programmer
07:50:41 <elliott> not as opposed to not a journalist
07:50:54 <zzo38> cpressey: I might not be able, although it depends what time on Wednesday.
07:51:30 <zzo38> That time I don't think I will be here; I will probably be on a boat at that time.
07:52:34 <shachaf> Are you going to/from Victoria?
07:53:17 <elliott> i'm partial to tomorrow as opposed to thursday, fwiw
07:53:24 <elliott> no opinion on dates after that
07:54:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Probably.
07:54:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What's this boat thing? Tell us details.
07:55:12 <cpressey> ok, i'll propose 4PM thu and 4PM the following mon and let the chips fall where they may
07:57:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:57:17 <cpressey> elliott: ok, then maybe let's just go with tomorrow
07:57:54 <cpressey> shachaf: probably the Friendship Boat hth
07:57:59 <elliott> like ripping off a plaster
07:58:09 <shachaf> cpressey: Since when do you say hth?
08:02:02 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, stop breathing, you'll catch the hth bug.
08:02:02 <fungot> fizzie: i shall help also.... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! come on, now!
08:02:47 <mnoqy> oh no....fungot is happy to help.............
08:02:47 <fungot> mnoqy: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going!
08:03:31 <fizzie> fungot: Also please don't mess up that interview thing it would be bad PR.
08:03:31 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
08:04:47 <fizzie> Cleaning up my desk here yesterday (moving offices), I found a flow-chart of fungot.
08:04:47 <fungot> fizzie: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
08:05:51 <elliott> fizzie: terrorised by people telling you about how speech recognition sucks too much?
08:06:54 <fizzie> I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than '...'".
08:07:30 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png <- flowchart
08:07:30 <fungot> fizzie: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
08:07:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Speech recognition is pretty great.
08:07:47 <shachaf> Don't listen to elliott, he's just trying to "get you down".
08:08:32 <shachaf> fizzie: Tell me about speech recognition: Does there *have* to be a short (noticeable) delay between saying something and it being recognized?
08:08:37 <shachaf> Every system I've seen has had that sort of delay.
08:08:56 <shachaf> What if you restrict the vocabulary significantly? Say, a few words, or a few dozen words.
08:09:31 <mnoqy> make a button for each word and just dang press the button
08:09:48 <mnoqy> hire a dog to press the button for you
08:10:25 <fizzie> I assume limited-vocabulary recognition could be made to happen pretty fast, if you wanted to pay attention to that.
08:11:46 <shachaf> fizzie: I was wondering about using it as part of the interface of a real-time-strategy sort of game.
08:11:50 <shachaf> Along with a touch screen.
08:18:42 <fizzie> Of course there's some inherent delay involved in the feature extraction, and figuring out if the utterance has actually ended (if the vocabulary is limited and unambiguous enough, that'd be easier), and of course the actual decoding (but computers are fast)... I suppose as a ballpark figure a hundred milliseconds or two sounds reasonable. (Don't quote me on that.)
08:19:13 <shachaf> 100ms is reasonable, I guess?
08:19:48 <shachaf> If you limit the vocabulary such that it's prefix-free etc. then maybe you don't need to worry about figuring out if the utterance has ended.
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08:26:38 <fizzie> I'm sure that, with sufficient cleverness, you could improve the response time of large-vocabulary continuous speech systems a lot too, it's just that people perhaps haven't really seen the need to. (And if you're too aggressive about it, you'd probably start getting sub-optimal results.)
08:26:59 <fizzie> Well, sub-optimaller. They're already quite sub-optimal.
08:27:20 <fizzie> (Or is that "subler-optimal"?)
08:31:25 <elliott> cpressey: so is it tomorrow?
08:32:34 <cpressey> elliott: that's what i'm just about to propose but dude is PROBABLY still asleep right now
08:33:14 <elliott> cpressey: dude's probably wide awake out of pure excitement
08:33:37 <lambdabot> Local time for cpressey is Tue May 28 09:34:03 2013
08:33:51 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Tue May 28 09:33:50
08:34:18 <Taneb> Hexham's 20 seconds behind GMT
08:35:19 <fungot> fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace?
08:35:24 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is Whoa, man.
08:35:33 <fizzie> Aw, snap, it was "dude".
08:36:04 <fizzie> 20 seconds behind GMT, and timeless.
08:36:15 <shachaf> is there a gender-neutral version of "man"
08:36:33 <fizzie> Maybe we could agree on "oman" as a compromise.
08:39:56 <cpressey> ok, sent, just in case he's as excited as we are and it up at, er, 4:40AM on a tuesday
08:43:02 <cpressey> "As I mentioned, the most newsworthy event recently is that, apparently, we're newsworthy, even if it is only for a "gosh, aren't they quirky" piece. Sort of post-modern, isn't it? Heisennews."
08:43:45 <cpressey> being the most intelligent fragment of my missive
08:47:53 <cpressey> his career appears to have begun in 2008... combine that with an image search for good measure, and how old do you think he is?
08:48:46 <cpressey> since we're not hiring him, i think we're totally allowed to be rampantly ageist
08:49:15 <fizzie> Hello there, logreading WSJ guy.
08:49:21 <fizzie> (I'm sure that'll happen.)
08:51:38 <elliott> cpressey: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: OLDER THAN ME
08:51:56 <elliott> fizzie: yo can you op me just for the duration of this whole WSJ thing
09:00:32 <fizzie> That sounds kind of potentially disastrous, doesn't it?
09:02:23 <shachaf> ais523 should be the only op for the duration
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09:10:21 <cpressey> elliott: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: YOUNGER THAN ME
09:11:02 <elliott> cpressey: well, that establishes it. he's older than the youngest person possible and younger than the oldest person possible
09:11:38 <cpressey> i think technically oerjan may be the oldest person possible
09:11:57 <cpressey> shachaf: what part of "Befunge-93" do you not... wait, didn't you say you're, like, not into esolangs, or something?
09:12:17 <shachaf> I think technically I'm the oldest person possible, because the universe didn't exist before I was born.
09:12:38 <elliott> cpressey: are you sure you're not as old as oerjan?
09:12:46 <shachaf> Oh, you're *that* Chris Pressey.
09:12:46 <cpressey> wow, a non-moralist *and* a solipsist, that's very, very good
09:13:14 <cpressey> elliott: i think it came up once and he's like a year or two older than me
09:13:32 <elliott> cpressey: oh snap, valuable info's re: the secret of cpressey's age
09:13:38 <cpressey> i *think*. don't go on my word. th' dementia, y'know
09:13:50 <elliott> storing it in my #esoteric database. it's like boily's but less specific
09:15:10 <cpressey> elliott: also put in that Chris is short for Christine
09:15:28 <elliott> i doubt the factual accuracy of this statement, cpressey
09:15:38 <HackEgo> 263) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
09:16:08 <shachaf> `run quotes cpressey | shuf
09:16:10 <HackEgo> 123) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 136) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kos
09:16:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I demand a wisdom entry about cpressey.
09:17:28 <cpressey> my quotes are kind of lame and i'm pretty sure i never said some of them
09:17:43 <elliott> especially the zomgmodules ones
09:17:44 <HackEgo> 136) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me
09:17:57 <cpressey> oh, the ZOMGMODULES ones might be better, naturally
09:17:57 <elliott> i just love modules that much
09:18:06 <elliott> cpressey: have you been to any more pycons
09:18:19 <shachaf> cpressey: you should move to san francisco btw
09:18:22 <elliott> i think they bring out the best in you
09:18:41 <shachaf> Does "heh" stand for "hope elliott helps"?
09:19:22 <cpressey> elliott: yeah, about that... so you know the guy sitting next to the guy in the donglegate photo... oh, i've already said too much
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09:21:02 <cpressey> ok shachaf, *why* do you think i should move to SF of all places
09:21:23 <HackEgo> 263) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. \ 264) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. \ 314) <ZOMGMODULES> I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything <elliott_> Yes. <elliott_> And the best thi
09:21:48 <shachaf> cpressey: well, why wouldn't you
09:21:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:22:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
09:22:26 <fizzie> NEWS FLASH: First non-airport Starbucks in Finland is going to open, at a bookstore in Helsinki, later this year!
09:22:29 <fizzie> It's like we're getting a small taste of civilization also here in the PERIPHERIES.
09:22:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32352
09:23:47 <cpressey> coffee = civilization, no doubt about it
09:23:50 <elliott> cpressey: man, remember Falcon.
09:26:19 <cpressey> yeah, that was when the Great Language Explosion of the 2010's was just beginning
09:28:00 <cpressey> i remember not wanting to bootstrap it mainly
09:28:34 <cpressey> was ooc the first language with pink unicorns? i ask because these days THEY ALL HAVE PINK UNICORNS HAVE YOU NOTICED
09:28:48 <fizzie> "It was the summer of twenty-ten," like the song goes.
09:33:23 <elliott> cpressey: so this whole cornwall thing...
09:33:35 <elliott> I admit I have no idea how anyone could actually end up in cornwall
09:33:55 <cpressey> elliott: that's consistent with the fact that i have no idea how i ended up here
09:34:47 <elliott> were you sailing solo around the world and got lost
09:35:47 <shachaf> cpressey: have you considered ending up in san francisco instead
09:36:49 <cpressey> ... yes. i was trying to get to Hexham but was not sufficiently familiar with the region names in the BBS shipping forecast. which is totally my fault because they're listed off at the beginning of "The Good Ship Lifestyle" by Chumbawamba
09:37:29 <cpressey> shachaf: i do generally prefer to be *outside* of massive reality tunnels if i can help it, thanks
09:38:11 <shachaf> twist: you're inside a massive reality tunnel right now
09:38:19 <cpressey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast_and_sea/shipping_forecast for your review
09:38:36 <cpressey> shachaf: not THAT massive. i mean jesus
09:39:12 <elliott> cpressey: ok so next question, why the hell were you trying to get to hexham
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09:39:36 <cpressey> elliott: i think we're all trying to answer that question in our own way, aren't we?
09:39:50 <elliott> i'm not even trying to get to hexham
09:39:57 <elliott> it's a very easy question to answer for me!
09:40:28 <shachaf> elliott is trying to get out of hexham
09:40:41 <shachaf> he wants to come to san francisco in order to obtain hugs
09:42:06 <elliott> i'll go to sf for kmc and nothing less
09:42:12 <elliott> cpressey: no I liked the idea that you still use BBSes.
09:42:15 <shachaf> kmc is coming to sf................tomorrow
09:42:17 <elliott> and that they offer shipping forecasts.
09:42:39 <cpressey> elliott: excellent point, i like that idea too
09:44:16 <Taneb> I've spent too much time on Tumblr. I'm just imagining people saying, "Johnlock looks to cxontinue strong, with very little Doctor/Clara"
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10:30:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hi you must be here tomorrow 9pm
10:30:55 <cpressey> assuming he gets back to me with "yes that'll work"
10:31:24 <shachaf> what time is that pacific time? help
10:32:16 <shachaf> so that's not in ~10 hours
10:32:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://jsvine.com/ may join the channel then
10:33:07 <cpressey> srsly you have exams that late? that's, like, after the watershed
10:35:44 <cpressey> modulo the fact that i always expect `relcome to do it in an Astro-from-the-Jestons voice
10:35:49 <shachaf> Can you confirm it's in ~32 hours?
10:36:12 <Jafet> `run sed -e 's/bow/words/' -i bin/relcome
10:36:23 <cpressey> shachaf: i will confirm as soon as he confirms
10:36:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: old like monoids
10:36:38 <shachaf> The time you're talking about! Is it in ~10 hours?
10:37:12 <fizzie> What was that all about, rainwords is totally sucky compared to rainbow, it's all ORDERLY and SUCH.
10:37:17 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:37:18 <cpressey> shachaf: no, it's ~24 more hours than that
10:37:30 <elliott> cpressey: there was literally never any question of not relcoming him
10:38:07 <cpressey> Relcome ru reh rinternational rub ror resoteric rogramming ranguage resign
10:38:08 <elliott> I bet he'll use a crappy client that doesn't do colours though
10:39:24 <fizzie> `run wehlcohme | rainbow # rehlcohme
10:39:27 <HackEgo> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
10:39:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: old enough to have far too many hanna-barbera memories stuck in the ol' bean
10:40:57 <HackEgo> bash: bork: command not found
10:41:25 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
10:41:59 <fizzie> `run env LC_ALL=fi_FI.UTF-8 apropos something
10:42:01 <HackEgo> apropos: opastepolkujen asetustiedostoa /etc/manpath.config ei voi avata
10:43:17 <Jafet> fungot text filter
10:43:17 <fungot> Jafet: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! whadd'ya mean she's gone!
10:43:48 <elliott> cpressey: were the 80s actually real (important question)
10:44:36 <shachaf> elliott: they were not "i guarantee it"
10:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover> can you imagine going straight from the 70s to the 90s?
10:44:59 <shachaf> `run env LC_ALL=he_IL.UTF-8 apropos something
10:45:01 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
10:45:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: uh the 70s didn't exist either
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10:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you're saying we went straight from the 60s to the 90s?
10:46:06 <Jafet> `run welcome | zalgo
10:46:08 <HackEgo> W͗͝e͊͆l̑̇c̘͡oͫ͡m̹͏e̐̀ ͒ͅt̹̊ō̴ ͍̬t̜̃h̜́e̙̓ ̰͆ị̊n̦ͬt͍̰e͈̚ṛ͝n͂̕a̸ͩt̶ͧi̲̝o͒҉nͨ͋a̲͂l͈͛ ͓̿ḧ̤ü̘b̟͋ ͭͅf͎͇o̿̿r̛͍ ̟̩e̷̟ṣ̈o̡̰t͖͌ê͕r̪͡i̶̱c͇̼ ̍͠p̲̈́r͕͑o̼҉g̖̈r̳ͦa̶̲m̞ͮm͈̜í̖ṇͫg̨̒ ́̽lͯ̀aͧ̏n̗̏g̼̲u̖͗a̜͆g̪͢e͔็ ̰ͅd͆̏e̱̔s̸
10:46:15 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: uh you're not quite getting the pattern here
10:46:20 <shachaf> let me give you a hint the 60s didn't exist either
10:46:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: shachaf = solipsist
10:46:33 <shachaf> typing without punctuation is so weird help i don't understand it
10:46:36 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: some of them
10:46:49 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm not a solipsist!
10:47:12 <cpressey> some kind of special-case time-line solipsism then
10:47:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i could see going straight to the 90s from pretty much anywhere
10:47:27 <elliott> it would make as much sense
10:48:05 <Jafet> The world was created ex nihilo next tuesday
10:48:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes but they didn't proceed to make any sense, did they
10:48:37 <cpressey> it goes like this: 1899, 1931, 1996, 1943, 2001, 1988, 1984, 1919, 1973, and so on
10:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> they're basically the logical continuation of the 80s except the cold war abruptly ended and everyone was kind of confused about what to do now
10:48:52 <FreeFull> If they didn't exist, I must be a lie
10:48:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: and given that the 80s definitely don't make any sense, you need to explain the 80s for "you can only explain the 90s with the 80s"
10:49:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: now the question is, do the 70s explain the 80s? i contend: no.
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10:49:30 <elliott> we are forced to conclude that either the 80s or the 90s spontaneously came to exist without making sense or following regular chronology.
10:49:47 <elliott> it seems reasonable to entertain the possibility that we went straight from the 70s to the 90s
10:49:59 <elliott> as it is no less absurd than going straight from the 70s to the 80s
10:50:09 <shachaf> FreeFull: everyone in here was born in the 90s
10:50:15 <cpressey> i don't know what y'all find so inexplicable about the 80s
10:50:47 <Jafet> The dreaded "infinite digression"
10:50:49 <cpressey> rainbow suspenders? diff'rent strokes? thatcherism?
10:51:13 <elliott> cpressey: well... can you *explain* the 80s
10:51:43 <shachaf> not everything needs to be explainable
10:52:25 <shachaf> So when are you moving to SF?
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10:52:44 <Jafet> Do your memories exist
10:53:24 <Jafet> http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/
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10:54:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
10:54:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
10:54:10 <cpressey> i felt no urge read beyond the first row of panels, am i jaded?
10:54:54 <Jafet> No, I think I posted the wrong one
10:54:56 <Jafet> http://dresdencodak.com/2009/01/27/advanced-dungeons-and-discourse/
10:54:59 <cpressey> and tbh my though immediately after it loaded was "wtf harry potter with boobs"
10:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> that's pretty much the entire point of dresden codak these days
10:55:47 <elliott> i like how "these days" is being used in reference to a URL with "2006" in it
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11:00:22 <cpressey> "Hey guys! The next page is almost finished, but I’m moving to Portland, OR this week and won’t have access to my computer for the better part of two weeks. To tide you all over (and because you deserve it), here are the full pencils of the next page of Dark Science!"
11:02:02 <Deewiant> I like how the "next comic eta" tends to just increase by a month either a few days after or before that next month begins
11:05:04 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
11:07:22 <cpressey> forget the 80's, i submit that the 2010's do not exist
11:08:20 <elliott> cpressey: they will cease to exist when the WSJ publishes an article about esolangs
11:08:27 <cpressey> so shachaf, what do you do there in the bay area reality bubble
11:09:25 <elliott> he works at y combinator startups
11:10:31 <shachaf> cpressey: a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer...
11:11:13 <cpressey> elliott: you're right, he works at y combinator startups
11:11:51 <cpressey> not everything needs to be explainable
11:13:35 <cpressey> (important editorial note: even though i use the word "y'all", i am not a southerner. i just don't like that "standard" english doesn't distinguish between second person singular and second person plural. also sometimes useful: "yonder")
11:14:02 <lambdabot> *** "yonder" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
11:14:02 <lambdabot> adv 1: at or in an indicated (usually distant) place (`yon' is
11:14:02 <lambdabot> archaic and dialectal); "the house yonder"; "scattered
11:14:02 <lambdabot> here and yon"- Calder Willingham [syn: {yonder}, {yon}]
11:14:40 <cpressey> less useful than y'all in chat, admittedly
11:14:53 <elliott> cpressey: have you tried saying "y'all" in cornwall yet
11:16:35 <quintopia> cpressey: when did you suddenly find time to waste in irc
11:17:14 <cpressey> quintopia: when the wsj guy wanted to interview me and i decided this was the only appropriate venue for that
11:17:24 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm glad you came.
11:17:33 <FreeFull> Polish has ty for second singular and wy for second plural
11:17:33 <shachaf> This place is much better with you around.
11:18:04 <quintopia> why would the wsj want to interview you
11:18:17 <quintopia> why would wsj readers be interested
11:19:46 <shachaf> You gotta grow the mushrooms in something.
11:21:32 <cpressey> quintopia: did you read http://catseye.tc/wsj.html -- he persisted though -- i gather he thinks it would make a great quirky "who'd a thunk it" human interest piece
11:23:30 <cpressey> shachaf: i will likely not be here as frequently/continually after this event has passed, just so you're aware
11:23:49 <cpressey> cuts into my furry fanart time
11:23:49 <shachaf> cpressey: Will you be anywhere else?
11:24:14 <shachaf> Other than Hexham/Finland/Cornwall/whatever.
11:24:34 <elliott> i'll get the wsj guy to convince cpressey to stay
11:25:17 <shachaf> cpressey: By the way, I initially came here due to an interest in esoteric languages.
11:25:23 <shachaf> I lost the interest after that.
11:25:33 <elliott> alternatively i'll go down to cornwall and spread the word about modules
11:25:43 <shachaf> I didn't really lose the interest.
11:27:59 <shachaf> cpressey: Your email was so good I sent the link to someone.
11:29:33 <Deewiant> Using the e-mail up to the "RATS" bit as the article itself would work well IMO
11:30:10 <shachaf> cpressey: You may ask but I probably won't answer. Sorry. :-(
11:30:21 <cpressey> quintopia: if he thinks it'll make a good human interest story, joke's on him, i'm far from convinced that any of us are human
11:31:04 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm definitely human.
11:31:25 <shachaf> My parents checked shortly after I was born.
11:31:44 <quintopia> zzo38 may be the most human. k think he should definitely be the one doing the interview
11:33:23 <cpressey> i did try to pass the torch to him, but he declined; and the timing might not work for him being here, not if it's going to be tomorrow anyway
11:37:38 <elliott> cpressey: i think the problem is more in the "interest" part of "human interest story"
11:38:33 <quintopia> elliott: the subject is definitely occasionally interesting to us nonhumans here in #esoteric
11:41:54 <cpressey> it's not UNinteresting to be informed that, oh yes, those languages that people use to program computers? well some folks make some really weird ones. of course, some folks make gigantic sculptures of tractors out of empty milk cartons, too.
11:42:57 <cpressey> if you're a programmer, otoh, and you actually have thought about programming, and know some words for programming concepts, then you can get to the interesting things - IF that's your interest.
11:44:15 <shachaf> cpressey: Can you fix my sleep, by the way?
11:44:23 <elliott> cpressey: so, now that you are retired you are going to donate your riches to promising young esolangers right
11:44:38 <shachaf> elliott: The lens fund isn't enough for you?
11:44:48 <cpressey> shachaf: probably not elliott: probably not
11:44:52 <shachaf> Are there any dependently-typed esolangs?
11:45:11 <elliott> cpressey: reconsider. on the latter account only
11:55:09 <shachaf> Are you talking to yourself?
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12:09:11 <elliott> boily: you have to ask the wsj guy The Question.
12:09:28 <shachaf> boily: What's The Question?
12:09:33 <boily> we have somebody from the wsj here?
12:10:05 <elliott> boily: well, we will. tentatively tomorrow at 9 pm UTC, or so I hear.
12:10:18 <boily> shachaf: the one I constantly nag you with, and to which elliott is the least coöperative.
12:10:22 <elliott> uh, wait, is it 8 or 10 pm BST
12:11:07 <boily> oh well. kernel upgrade.
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12:16:50 <boily> shachaf: by the way, I think now is a good time to ask you the The Question: what are your approximative geographic coördinates, and body weigh?
12:18:59 <shachaf> boily: What's with diæreses?
12:19:04 <shachaf> This is the WSJ, not the New Yorker.
12:19:18 <shachaf> hey cpressey can you get us a New Yorker interview
12:19:30 <fizzie> Can you get #esoteric on the cover of Time, please?
12:19:44 <boily> shachaf: I was informed that it's a longstanding tradition of this channel.
12:21:55 <shachaf> boily: Approximately: 0N 0W 0kg
12:22:16 <shachaf> But a few days I ago I mentioned my exact address in the channel.
12:22:43 <boily> `pastequotes shachaf
12:22:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32467
12:23:03 <boily> `pastelogs shachaf
12:23:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26557
12:23:45 <boily> `pastelogs 2013-05.*?shachaf
12:24:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15168
12:25:50 <boily> `bienvenue cpressey
12:25:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
12:26:06 <boily> hm. looks like my translation of `welcome disappeared...
12:26:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
12:27:59 <boily> shachaf: I'm as non-belgian than Koen_.
12:28:12 <shachaf> as non-belgian than Koen_?
12:28:29 <Koen_> boily's an american belgian
12:28:49 <boily> in fact, I'm one CD away from cpressey.
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12:43:30 <fizzie> http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/2013/05/27/systemd-survey-results.html "Top concerns -- 4. I have a problem with systemd upstream and/or Lennart in particular"
12:45:09 <boily> fizzie: concern 2 is a good one, and one I didn't know about too.
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12:56:07 <cpressey> alls i know is, right now, 4PM in NY = 9PM in GB
12:56:25 <cpressey> well obviously not RIGHT right now. this time of year
12:59:11 <cpressey> it looks like there are little bits of greenland where it just jumps 2 timezones
13:01:59 <shachaf> Is there much recorded music whose copyright has expired?
13:09:05 <boily> mar mai 28 09:08:58 EDT 2013
13:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how iran decides to be halfway between two timezones
13:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (there was a point at which the uk was seriously considering permanently switching to UTC+1, but this was vetoed by scotland)
13:33:25 <elliott> or would it still have dst
13:43:45 <fizzie> I've generally used something that I think was timeanddate.com for across-time-zone scheduling.
13:45:39 <fizzie> The "abolish DST in Finland" petition is currently #7 (of the active ones) when ranked by signatures on the official Finnish "petitions to the gummint" page.
13:47:04 <fizzie> (16607 signatures; 50k are needed before the parliament is obligated to... "process" one; they've been collecting since Dec 3, 2012; it closes Jun 3, 2013; they're so not going to make it.)
13:47:10 <boily> there should be something like "Tee sanat helpompi ymmärtää."
13:47:39 <fizzie> That should presumably be more like "tee sanoista helpompia ymmärtää."
13:49:13 <cpressey> does finland even *have* daylight
13:50:01 <fizzie> "Let gays marry" is the only one with >50k (151644) votes. (Currently they have a thing called "registered partnership" that's missing some features of "real marriage" that I can't quite remember.
13:50:55 <fizzie> And the sun is shining and it's like 24 °C (75 °F for you funyuns) outside.
13:53:38 <fizzie> In the summer, we've got more daylight we know what to do with, you could even say.
13:53:54 <fizzie> (I understand some people find it hard to sleep here or something?)
13:54:46 <fizzie> "You need a certain type of curtain. Like WWII blackout curtains. I was in Helsinki for summer, the hotel did not have adequate curtains and I'm already a light sleeper. I did not have fun." --Internet.
13:56:21 <fizzie> Time to go shobbing. ->
13:57:24 <boily> fizzie: oh, sorry. please wait a few moments while I summon some deepsea creature... ♪
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13:57:46 <fizzie> Never mind, it's going to say 22 and prove I'm a big liar.
13:57:53 <metasepia> EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG
13:57:54 <metasepia> EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG
13:58:24 <fizzie> That's still quite hot!
13:58:31 <boily> fizzie: and about that plural thing, see, even gtranslate's confused!
13:58:35 <metasepia> CYUL 281300Z 14003KT 30SM FEW240 14/06 A3020 RMK CI1 SLP226
13:58:45 <boily> same here. 14 above zero! can you imagine!
13:58:53 <boily> (stupid canadian weather. *grmbl*)
13:59:32 <fizzie> We're going to do our South-of-France/Switzerland trip real soon now, and at the moment it seems to be colder there than here, which is rather unlikely.
13:59:54 <metasepia> LFMN 281330Z 17004KT 140V200 9999 FEW025 SCT056 BKN083 17/11 Q1008 NOSIG
14:03:57 <metasepia> For the song of the same name by Frankie Goes to Hollywood, see here.
14:06:21 <metasepia> KMRB 281353Z 07003KT 10SM FEW055 OVC100 14/12 A3017 RMK AO2 RAB31E45 SLP214 P0000 T01440122
14:10:29 <boily> I'm just missing your body weigh now :D
14:11:14 <boily> just an educated guess.
14:13:55 <quintopia> i would also like to know my body weight
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15:06:27 <HackEgo> jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:06:53 <jsvine> Hi, and thanks for the welcome!
15:06:53 <cpressey> jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed.
15:07:23 <cpressey> oh wait, timezone: I meant 29 hr from now.
15:13:57 <Lumpio-> Welcome message has a . in the link, fail
15:28:06 <boily> molpysnakes. after ~728 pages, the thread is still going strong. I am vaguely disturbed.
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16:38:28 <HackEgo> jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:48:22 <Koen_> I fear relcoming might be a relude to rickraining
16:52:56 <Taneb> cpressey, I hope we give rickrolling up. Those who still do it let society down. I'll run away and desert any friend who does it.
16:53:47 <cpressey> Taneb: according to wikipedia, "The meme has helped to revive Astley's career." how can that be a bad thing?
16:55:37 <zzo38> List of ideas gives ideas about logic of type systems, such as fuzzy logic, and "type correct unless type Y is also used", or making exceptions with logic. How would you do these things?
16:56:44 <cpressey> zzo38: shachaf asked earlier if there were any dependently typed esolangs, though
16:57:47 <cpressey> i don't think there are. it's a bit hard to implement, and, being an active research area, a bit hard to figure out good ways to fiddle with it
17:00:45 <zzo38> I think recursive triggers is a useful feature of SQL, isn't it?
17:01:11 <zzo38> What are your opinions of writing RPG computer games in SQL? SQL seems not a bad programming language for doing so.
17:04:14 <cpressey> hmm... are there any database engines that can do I/O in stored procedures? i've never thought about even trying that
17:05:27 <zzo38> Well, you could have external functions for doing I/O.
17:05:39 <zzo38> Or virtual table modules.
17:09:00 <cpressey> i'll be content with whatever method, as long as i can run an EXPLAIN PLAN that reports the optimal method for getting out of the dungeon alive.
17:10:46 <zzo38> I don't find stored procedures to be a useful feature of SQL (and SQLite doesn't use it anyways). The flow control of stored procedures doesn't seem necessary either; but one thing I have done is to make a virtual table module containing all 64-bit integers, and using this to make counted loops.
17:11:35 <boily> cpressey: that's easy. you grab the orb, teleport like crazy until you land right on top of a staircase, then get killed anyway by the ungodly amounts of major demons and demon lords and liches that spawned while you were teleporting.
17:12:24 <zzo38> I don't mean a roguelike game, though (although that may be possible too).
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17:16:28 <cpressey> zzo38: could it be a RPG with clowns? what would be some good clown stats?
17:16:43 <zzo38> SQLite has only FOR EACH ROW triggers and not FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers. I don't know why FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers would be useful anyways. SQLite also doesn't have updateable views; views are read-only unless there is a trigger to tell it what to do when it is written. I think using triggers like this is a more useful way, and I have created write-only views for this purpose.
17:17:26 <zzo38> cpressey: I suppose it could, although I don't know the stats; anyways, what stats are available and what to use also depend on the rules of the game.
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17:20:20 <zzo38> A feature that SQLite does not have (and I don't know if any other SQL engines have) is views that can be overridden with other views and then restored.
17:29:32 <zzo38> Some things, such as making triggers that create and drop triggers, can be faked using existing features, though.
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17:34:17 <zzo38> Do you know any Verilog programming?
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17:50:47 <cpressey> boily: i'm sure he'll remember the context for that
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17:52:28 <boily> cpressey: that's far from the worse @tell I did.
17:52:49 <boily> `pastelogs boily.*?@tell
17:53:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4006
17:54:15 <boily> I have fond memories of «2012-12-21.txt:19:40:46: <boily> @tell taneb bananas, mangos, kiwifruit, korean, nostradamus.».
17:54:58 <cpressey> yeah i was just going to say, that's kind of a fascinating link, right there.
17:55:34 <boily> tho I'm ashamed to say that I have no clue in fungot what I was reminding him about.
17:55:34 <fungot> boily: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
17:55:43 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
17:56:43 <cpressey> fizzie: that fungot flowchart that you found, is it worth scanning in? maybe HackEgo could produce a link to it, as its knowledge of fungot.
17:56:43 <fungot> cpressey: o the input/ output functions. by setting this bit to 1
17:57:14 <cpressey> fungot: don't keep me in suspense!
17:57:14 <fungot> cpressey: it is important to affect the printing of shifted characters.
17:57:44 <boily> et voilà. the Truth was Unfold, and the Printing was Shifted in Character.
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17:59:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcom: not found
18:00:01 <HackEgo> surma: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:09:18 <fizzie> cpressey: It's printed out from a GraphViz-generated image, scanning it in would be kind of a "wooden table" thing to do.
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18:13:21 <cpressey> bah, and here i had a romantic notion of a hurriedly-scrawled diagram in pencil with lots of things crossed out
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18:15:51 <fizzie> cpressey: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png or without the "small" if you don't mind a 7485x15016 image.
18:15:52 <fungot> fizzie: gosub200 sprite shape, which normally determines which of these routines can be displayed in another graphics mode is to check the truth of both operands are compared by first pokeing petascii characters, with each function call.
18:16:36 <fizzie> It's not even a high-level graph, it's just an alternative representation of the source code, automatically generated.
18:17:14 <fizzie> (With some heuristics for the static analysis of jump tables and such.)
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18:23:26 <boily> RFC 2132 has some unexpected options. you can specify default IRC servers in a DHCP packet!
18:26:17 <fizzie> s/.*// #there goes everything
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18:29:11 <boily> fizzie: that way is not feng shui. you have to go with the flow of /s and \s.
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18:32:02 <ion> If you’re escaping slashes in your regexp, you’re using the wrong quote character.
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18:44:05 <Taneb> I now have Amnesia: The Dark Descent installed
18:44:36 <Taneb> No, I'm just crap at the whole horror genre
18:45:16 <fizzie> Hey, I'm sure you people know these things: when there's a bird that (according to the spec sheet^W^W^WWikipedia) lays "three to five eggs", do they all plop out almost at once, or is there a gap? (Our kitchen window nest now has an egg, but only one.)
18:46:08 <fizzie> boily: Why is there just one then? Is there something WORNG?
18:46:48 <FreeFull> fizzie: The bird explodes, only 3 to 5 eggs remaining, and then the bird reforms mid-air
18:47:10 <fizzie> FreeFull: That sounds more like an angry bird or something.
18:57:27 <ion> taneb: It’s an awesome game.
18:57:43 <Taneb> ion, but I'm crap at horror stuff!
19:00:35 <boily> Taneb: you should try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_(video_game). it is relaxing.
19:04:44 <fizzie> Okay, yes, that seems pretty crap.
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19:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you just have to make sure you play it the correct way
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19:34:36 <cpressey> fizzie: romantic notions of scrawlings notwithstanding, that is one pretty diagram.
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19:37:22 <cpressey> but fungot, are you sure you're cool with there being nude portraits of yourself online?
19:37:22 <fungot> cpressey: for machine language
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19:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i was tumblrstalking you and i came across worrying evidence
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> also have i ordered you to watch farscape because you totally should
19:51:47 <Bike> are you a comic book character
19:54:31 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I find your use of bold disturbing.
19:54:47 <boily> underline like a man!
19:57:24 <boily> «Ctrl-C U» in weechat. there is B for bold, and C for colours, and some other letters which I don't know the use of.
19:58:28 <Bike> reverse video is heroic
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20:02:42 <boily> Bike: I think this is for reverse.
20:02:48 <oerjan> <cpressey> how can any value ever be less than an epsilon AHHHHH BRAIN BREAKING <-- half an epsilon hth
20:04:34 <oerjan> <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me." <-- i have a bad feeling about this.
20:04:54 <oerjan> unless you already finished it, that would be good hth
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20:07:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, why are you tumblr-stalking me
20:07:06 <Taneb> My tumblr is like really boring
20:07:26 <Taneb> imo Tumblr-stack Phantom_Hoover
20:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> probably in an attempt to gain further insights into the person i allow to make death threats in my name over the internet
20:08:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i hear Taneb has a really boring tumblr i suggest you fake a more interesting one hth
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20:09:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he's an evil overlord in training what more do you need to know hth
20:10:23 <Taneb> I'll have you know, that I can be very evil when I choose to be
20:10:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see how cheeriness contradicts evil hth
20:11:16 <Taneb> For example, I am slowly undermining the credibility of someone I met on IRC by creating a Tumblr account that caricatures him while providing no suggestion that it isn't his
20:11:31 <Taneb> For no real reason other than that I felt like it one day
20:11:34 <Bike> http://www.jsvine.com/ this is probably the journalist
20:12:03 <oerjan> we are pearls before svine
20:12:07 <olsner> cheerful evil is possibly the worst/best kind of evil
20:12:25 <Taneb> How's that for evil, Phantom_Hoover
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20:13:43 <oerjan> this is one person who probably heard of us through the grapevine. in song.
20:14:25 <jsvine> Oh, hey, yep, that's me.
20:14:54 <boily> I think I have a dusty tumblr somewhere too...
20:15:12 <oerjan> shall i just ban him preemptively
20:15:52 <Taneb> jsvine, as you can tell, we are a community who, although primarily linked by esoteric programming languages, share a wide variety of interests
20:16:03 <Taneb> Including rampant silliness
20:16:13 <jsvine> Seems so. I'd expect nothing less.
20:16:21 <Bike> jsvine: oops, didn't see you in /names, sorry.
20:16:44 <jsvine> ("pearls before svine" is amazing; I've spent most my life around punners, and never heard that one before.)
20:17:37 <oerjan> you'll get nowhere with your flattery
20:19:17 <olsner> I will starve before my food is done :(
20:19:50 <oerjan> olsner: is this some kind of cheese that needs to mature for 3 months?
20:20:15 <olsner> oerjan: no, but it needs to be baked in the oven
20:20:48 <Taneb> jsvine, can I ask why you chose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture?
20:21:25 <Taneb> Why did you choose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture?
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20:21:49 <oerjan> this is where Taneb surreptitiously (is this the right word?) interviews jsvine and puts it on Phantom_Hoover's tumblr
20:22:18 <Bike> we already did a "who reports the reporter" joke oerjan
20:22:18 <jsvine> - esolangs and esolangers seem to have a sense of humor largely absent from commercial/practical programming/langauges
20:22:32 <olsner> oerjan: surely something bad happens if you try to interview a journalist, like putting google into google
20:22:36 <oerjan> Bike: darn i'm late on today am i not
20:23:00 <jsvine> - I like puzzles, and esolangs seem like a fun kind of puzzle
20:23:00 <Bike> i've read some cool interviews with jouranlists
20:23:20 <Bike> not the kind who interviews some dorks on irc, though, unless those dorks are on interpol wanted lists
20:23:47 <oerjan> are you telling me we are not on interpol wanted lists
20:24:40 <jsvine> - I think the idea that you can program via pictures (i.e., in Piet) might surprise/delight readers
20:24:49 <oerjan> now that was a boring result, i think google could at least have sneaked in a link to recursion
20:25:09 <jsvine> - I think readers will also be curious why people choose to spend time writing/using "useless" languages
20:25:14 <boily> oerjan: well, there's always my coördinate list. do you want to be on it?
20:25:21 <oerjan> did you know the piet article was just deleted from wikipedia :(
20:25:37 <boily> oerjan: oh. sorry. you're already there, although I'm missing your body weigh.
20:26:14 <Bike> destiny and needing a bit of fluff to write about
20:26:18 <Bike> though those are some pretty good reasons
20:26:20 <oerjan> boily: i thought i said i was 82 kg or thereabouts, although i think i've put on a bit again since then
20:26:34 <Bike> oerjan: you can always google "recursion"
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20:27:05 <jsvine> oerjan, do you have a link to the deletion discussion on wikipedia?
20:27:08 <Bike> jsvine: just so you know, there are professionals doing similarly weird things. http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 is my favorite example
20:27:08 <oerjan> Bike: ah yes, they still do that one
20:28:02 <boily> oerjan: must have missed it last time. thanks for the update!
20:28:16 <Taneb> jsvine, hehe, Piet was got me into esoteric programming
20:28:25 <Bike> oerjan: i like "do a barrel roll" more than i should
20:28:31 <jsvine> PSA: if anyone wants to email me privately, I'm at jsvine@gmail.com; PGP key on jsvine.com
20:28:35 <boily> is it professional to ask him/her/it the The Question?
20:28:35 <oerjan> jsvine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Piet_(programming_language)
20:28:44 <jsvine> oerjan: awesome, thanks
20:28:46 <Taneb> I once wrote a really broken IRC bot in Piet, but I've lost the source
20:29:13 <Taneb> boily, it's clear from his website that the answer to the Question would be "no"
20:29:22 <jsvine> Taneb: ha, amazing — that sounds like an insanely complex Piet program, no?
20:29:45 <jsvine> ok, ok, what's The Question?
20:30:00 <Taneb> "Do you live in Hexham?"
20:30:10 <Bike> how do you get fungot's source again
20:30:11 <fungot> Bike: it is left out, the logical and function. peek is a simple software routine. ( see the entry for the filter and the chart ( figure 3-1) will contain all the words and operators for the convenience of the device number
20:30:11 <boily> Taneb: eh, no. but I think that Version will do.
20:30:17 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> piet programs tend to be weird spindly webs of static rather than boxy mondrian pictures
20:30:30 <Bike> jsvine: this bot's written in befunge as you can see there
20:31:04 <Taneb> Yeah, Pietbot was one of the ugliest Piet programs going
20:31:08 <Taneb> I sort of gave up on it
20:31:13 <boily> so, jsvine, I'll have to ask you the The Lite Version of The Question: do you live in hexham?
20:31:45 <jsvine> brb, gotta google the answer
20:32:44 <Taneb> (Hexham's a small town in the north-east of England. Not really significant to anything to do with programming except for a weird coincidence in this channel)
20:33:31 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:34:22 <jsvine> I'm clearly out of my depth here.
20:35:17 <boily> jsvine: `? searches in the collective wisdom db. it has some... interesting definitions in it.
20:35:26 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:35:51 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
20:36:13 <Taneb> `learn Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places.
20:36:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
20:36:24 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:36:52 <HackEgo> Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
20:37:11 <Taneb> ...I've got a feeling I wrote that, and "NORTHUMBRAINS" was a typo
20:37:30 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice.
20:37:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: banach-tarski: not found
20:37:51 <oerjan> `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | colorize > wisdom/piet
20:37:52 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
20:37:55 <HackEgo> bash: colorize: command not found
20:38:11 <oerjan> oh right they renamed it because of the spelling war
20:38:54 <HackEgo> bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords
20:39:01 <oerjan> `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | rainwords > wisdom/piet
20:39:18 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
20:39:18 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
20:40:29 <Taneb> jsvine, perhaps the reason why esolangs seem to have a sense of humour absent from other languages is that silly languages tend to be classified as esoteric
20:40:47 <jsvine> I like that explanation
20:40:59 <Taneb> However, serious languages are not without their silliness, for example Python's import antigravity
20:41:00 <jsvine> Are there any silly languages not classified as esoteric?
20:41:24 <Taneb> jsvine, none spring to mind
20:41:31 <oerjan> php *runs away* *notices no one following*
20:41:57 <boily> jsvine: forth has that speical nostalgic and weird feeling to it.
20:42:00 <myname> do you guys consider J an esoteric or a serious language?
20:42:18 <Bike> it's esoteric in that it's weird, it's serious in that it is seriously intended and used
20:42:18 <jsvine> (And who named these things "esoteric" in the first place?)
20:42:23 <boily> definitely sesotericious.
20:42:44 <cpressey> jsvine: i had a webpage once titled "Esoteric Topics in Computer Programming"
20:43:12 <jsvine> cpressey: and the rest is history?
20:43:31 <jsvine> Were there other competing names at the time?
20:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages is quite informative
20:43:42 <oerjan> the rest would have been history if the webpages hadn't disappeared off the web.
20:43:50 <cpressey> well, i ran a listserv which also went under that name, I think, and, yes.
20:43:52 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: awesome, thanks
20:44:24 <Bike> oh, that article inspired me to look up knowlton back when i was in school
20:44:33 <Bike> i read his paper on l6 and found out that nowadays he makes paintings out of shells
20:44:51 <cpressey> The word "esoteric" was used only in the sense of "obscure because only a handful of people have the right combination of patience and interest to care enough to know it"
20:44:56 <Taneb> And reasons non-esoteric programmers seem to be less silly include: a) some of the silly ones end up here and b) most programmers are doing it for a living rather than fun
20:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> there's kind of a dark age between the 70s when intercal was invented and 1993 when the three prototypical modern esolangs were made
20:45:07 <Bike> http://www.kenknowlton.com/
20:45:12 <cpressey> which, I think, is how the word "esoteric" is usually used in the context of computers
20:45:28 <jsvine> What would someone have called, say, INTERCAL, before it was called "esoteric"?
20:45:44 <Bike> well, intercal's a parody
20:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> they just called it intercal, there was no need for a categorical name
20:45:53 <Bike> so they might just say that
20:46:14 <Bike> "it's that parody of cobol or something, right"
20:46:18 <Bike> "fuckin nerds"
20:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and yeah, it was primarily a joke riffing on existing language designs
20:47:01 <jsvine> interesting — "dada" suggests an comparison to art... which, seems intentional, no?
20:47:27 <jsvine> "fuckin nerds" works, too
20:47:29 <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:47:47 <cpressey> jsvine: i consider programs and programming languages to be artist media, but that might just be me.
20:47:49 <Bike> wait, wrong surrealism
20:48:13 <jsvine> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think happened between the 70s and '93?
20:48:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:48:21 <HackEgo> 1041) <Bike> esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s
20:48:22 <cpressey> whether this is "art" or not is a HUGE can of worms that we don't reeeeallly need to open up, not now
20:48:54 <Bike> comparing esolangs with tendencies towards automatic production in art could be kind of interesting, especially if you bring in self-proclaimed artists like knowlton
20:49:02 <Taneb> I'd say some, but not all esolangs are art
20:49:14 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, well there were other jokes along the lines of intercal, but afaik none of them were fleshed out into actual languages
20:49:17 <Bike> especially if you bring in that one guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Belousov-Zhabotinsky_Reaction.gif
20:49:38 <jsvine> Are there any esolangs in art museum collections? (Not that they're the ultimate arbiter of art.) MoMA put the "@" symbol in their collection a couple of years ago.
20:49:48 <cpressey> Taneb: I'd also say some non-esolangs are art (that is, (non-eso)langs)
20:50:13 <Taneb> jsvine, I do not believe so, however I am not sure
20:50:18 <oerjan> elliott: the MoMA people are going to be _so_ confused when you do that search-and-replace
20:50:27 <cpressey> jsvine: not that I'm aware of. and I kind of looked, sort of. I know MoMA has video games, too (in design, if not art)
20:50:31 <oerjan> *global search-and-replace
20:51:09 <olsner> Bike: hmm, "Made using self-written Java program." (I would like it if that meant that the java program wrote itself)
20:51:35 <jsvine> Seems like Piet (for its visual-ness) or Brainfuck (for its historic aspects) would be a good fit for a museum. Any other candidates?
20:51:43 <Bike> adamatzky, that's it
20:51:51 <Taneb> Befunge, maybe Glass?
20:52:05 <Bike> jsvine: a 2d language could be manipulated by viewers, would be a fun interactive exhibit
20:52:16 <Taneb> Yeah, definitely Eodermdrome
20:52:38 <jsvine> That's the first I've heard of Eodermdrome. Taking a look.
20:52:54 <oerjan> <elliott> also, I get the feeling the journalist is probably reading the logs right now. <-- now that's just paranoia hth
20:53:07 <Phantom_Hoover> the eodermdrome article is, er, not very clear about how it works
20:53:37 <Taneb> The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret
20:53:48 <Taneb> As far as I am aware, nobody has managed it
20:53:58 <oerjan> Taneb: technically not, because of the 26 letter limit
20:54:16 <Taneb> oerjan, oh, really?
20:54:23 <olsner> Taneb: wasn't that the interpreter that someone finnished?
20:54:32 <oerjan> it's not NP-complete to check for a finite set of subgraphs
20:54:50 <Bike> maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter.
20:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret
20:55:00 <oerjan> or well, it's P, etc. etc.
20:55:07 <Taneb> Well, I learn something every day
20:55:23 <Phantom_Hoover> but doing it in polynomial time is boring and complicated
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20:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter.
20:56:21 <boily> oerjan: only the lines in hth. if you take the prime letters of each line, they'll reveal a very sombre and shocking secret. hth
20:56:31 <oerjan> Bike: i am not convinced an eodermdrome self-interpreter would fit in the 26 letter limit. it was hard enough to fit BCT.
20:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, we've been over this, the spec doesn't say 'ascii' anywhere
20:56:59 <Bike> eh, extend it to other alphabets then
20:57:17 <Taneb> It is pretty simple to make an Eodermdrone-like language with unbounded nodes
20:57:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: fine, fine, you can decide it allows unicode after you make a working interpreter of it
20:57:34 <Taneb> Well, linear bounded
20:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah you'd basically have to have a case for every single unicode character
20:58:05 <boily> someday, we'll even have a feather interpreter!
20:58:23 <Bike> wait why do you need a case
20:58:43 <Bike> ugh don't make me think about actually writing an interpreter for that fucking thing again
20:59:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the initial graph is definitely the english alphabet fwiw
20:59:17 <Taneb> boily, some day, feather may have always existed
20:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, eodermdrome input works as a case analysis thing
21:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> you write (<string>) before a command and it'll only trigger if <string> is at the start of the input buffer
21:00:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also if you do an infinite alphabet it becomes NP-complete again hth
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21:00:52 <metasepia> CYUL 282000Z 16013KT 30SM BKN180 OVC240 22/01 A3011 RMK AS6CI2 SLP197 DENSITY ALT 700FT
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21:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> any given program will only have a finite number of match subgraphs
21:02:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well a given program won't be NP-complete, although performing a step in an arbitrary program will be
21:02:16 <cpressey> jsvine: as you can see from the above, if esolangs are art, it kind of raises the bar for "art appreciation"... but even if you don't know anything about complexity theory, you can still look at a program and enjoy it just on a visual level. as a pretty abstract. especially if you like looking at ASCII.
21:03:30 <jsvine> cpressey: I like that. There are definitely some pleasing, and distinguishable, visual aspects to most the esolangs I've seen.
21:04:26 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> jsvine, that's an observation extensible to real languages, fwiw; cf. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Wadlers_Law
21:06:17 <HackEgo> 152) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
21:06:38 <HackEgo> 155) <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
21:07:26 <jsvine> fascinating — as a newcomer, the easiest thing to grasp onto is the syntax
21:07:45 <jsvine> how do you identify that 3%?
21:08:04 <ais523> I guess a quick way to see if an esolang idea is really just syntax-deep, is to see how easy it is to translate into other languages
21:08:09 <oerjan> first, we kill all the brainfuck derivatives...
21:08:10 <ais523> something like Ook! looks quite different from BF
21:08:20 <ais523> but you can translate between them pretty trivially
21:08:28 <boily> ais523: yes, but Ook is Ook.
21:08:29 <jsvine> I like that rule of thumb
21:08:35 <ais523> meanwhile, if you're translating between, say, Underload and Brainfuck, it's a lot more difficult
21:08:51 <ais523> possible, due to Turing-completeness, but the program typically gets a lot longer in the translation
21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> and eodermdrome is extremely hard to translate into other languages, hence the lack of an interpreter
21:09:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that explains the lack of a compiler, rather than the lack of an interpreter
21:09:49 <ais523> some languages, like befunge-93, are quite easy to interpret
21:09:52 <ais523> but nontheless hard to compile
21:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, i'd say for a sufficiently broad definition of 'translation' it applies to interpreters too
21:10:34 <Taneb> Take, for example, a language I created, Fueue, which was proved Turing-complete by a non-trivial way of translating Underload to Fueue
21:10:43 <ais523> now I want to design a language which is very hard to write a self-interpreter for
21:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> interpretation involves implementing concepts in one language in terms of another, after all
21:10:55 <ais523> without being otherwise particularly difficult
21:11:21 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue#Computational_class
21:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> because the trickiest part in making a self-interpreter for it is dealing with the syntax/io mechanics
21:12:38 <Taneb> FreeFull, we're being interviews by jsvine
21:13:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the immediate reason is easy enough to explain, cpressey refused to let him interview him except in #esoteric
21:13:28 <FreeFull> I hope this interview will be heavily edited to cut out all the noise.
21:13:33 <jsvine> More of a conversation right now than an interview.
21:14:00 <boily> FreeFull: what? I can't hear you, I have an interview in my ear.
21:14:15 <jsvine> Where's the whisper button on this thing?
21:14:51 <ais523> jsvine: to private message someone, do /query and their username
21:14:57 <ais523> that'll open up a separate tag to PM them with
21:15:09 <jsvine> Oh, was just joking, unsuccessfully.
21:15:23 <ais523> I'm used to people muddling up IRC with instant messaging
21:15:29 <ais523> so I just mentally translated the terms
21:15:43 <jsvine> But anyone here should feel free to PM me if you want to chat privately.
21:18:12 <jsvine> Is anyone currently working on a new esolang? Doesn't necessarily have to be earth-shattering. I'm mostly just curious about the process.
21:18:44 <ais523> it's kind-of quiet at the moment, the good ones can take years to work through
21:18:56 <ais523> and after you've spent years working on one, you kind-of don't want to have anything to do with it any more
21:19:06 <ais523> really, though, the big problem is having an idea
21:19:22 <ais523> once you have one, working out the details can normally be done in a few hours, unless the idea is one that makes the details difficult
21:19:25 <jsvine> ais532: I know that feeling, on a shorter time-scale, with stories.
21:19:56 <ais523> some of my aborted projects had ideas like "regular expressions except Turing-complete", and "object oriented language that uses time travel in order to do inheritance"
21:20:28 <jsvine> ais523: Whoa. Abandoned why?
21:20:37 <ais523> the first one, I couldn't even get the parser to work
21:20:50 <ais523> admittedly, it meant I was being held up on syntax problems, so I could theoretically work around that
21:20:51 <oerjan> <Sgeo> (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist) <-- HEY YOU KNOW I NEVER READ MORE THAN ONE LINE AHEAD
21:20:54 <ais523> the second one, I don't like to tlak about
21:21:11 <oerjan> i guess technically that would be zero in this case.
21:21:17 <ais523> but the basic problem is that it's very hard to write a language entirely in terms of itself
21:21:29 <ais523> oerjan: for bonus points, I checked OOTS a few minutes ago, for reasons completely unrelated to the `olist
21:21:33 <ais523> basically I just check it manually now and again
21:21:37 <FreeFull> ais523: Regular expressions except turing-complete sounds like perl
21:21:49 <nooodl_> feather is kind of like an "inside joke" except i'm not sure how much of a "joke" it is
21:21:54 <metasepia> The Order of the Stick is a comedic fantasy webcomic that satirizes pencil and paper role-playing games (particularly Dungeons & Dragons and its accompanying system, d20) through the continuing tale of the titular party of adventurers.
21:21:57 <oerjan> i only check it about once a week if there's no `olist
21:21:58 <ais523> FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives
21:22:28 <ais523> nooodl_: I felt it was safer to let it become an inside joke, it reduces the odds I'll stupidly try to start working on it again
21:22:29 <Bike> regular expressions except turing complete sounds like thue
21:22:32 <boily> s/arbitrary/mixed code and regexpes/
21:22:43 <FreeFull> It's easy to think up an idea for an esoteric programming language, it's a bit harder to execute well on it.
21:22:49 <ais523> cyclexa had notation like (abc)^, which /added/ abc to the start of the input
21:22:50 <olsner> Bike: but thue is string rewriting, not regexps
21:22:55 <ais523> and thus was equivalent to c^b^a^
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21:23:18 <ais523> I think you're both right
21:23:21 <Bike> ais523 is one of the more creative here, which means he gets stuck on weird shit that hardly makes sense
21:23:23 <ais523> ideas are easy, interesting ideas are hard
21:23:56 <ais523> there are a few patterns I like that haven't been done to death nearly as much as BF derivatives, though
21:23:56 <olsner> Bike: thue with regexps is pretty much sed
21:24:02 <Taneb> I on the other hand find it easy to make up a half-baked idea and write a spec and publish it
21:24:10 <Bike> and sed's popular! see, victory
21:24:16 <ais523> such as the "introduce an arbitrary operation with no obvious properties, then force people to do everything in terms of it" paradigm
21:24:18 <Taneb> Which means that few of the languages I have created are much good
21:24:21 <oerjan> <ais523> FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives <-- um you can do linked lists in perl, no?
21:24:29 <ais523> oerjan: Perl's regexes
21:24:33 <ais523> there was some elision in that line
21:24:42 <FreeFull> I had an idea of a programming language where a syntax error would introduce new syntax based on seemingly random, but actually predictable rules
21:24:46 <oerjan> i got the elision in the wrong place
21:24:55 <FreeFull> But I have no idea what good execution of that idea would be
21:25:05 <ais523> oerjan: the typo didn't help
21:25:17 <ais523> FreeFull: that's the opposite idea of one I had recently
21:25:18 <Taneb> Fueue and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download (which, by the way, is the longest name for an esolang, to my knowledge) are pretty much my only two decent languages
21:25:24 <ais523> a language where the syntax changes every time you run the interpreter
21:25:29 <ais523> and as a result, programs have a half-life
21:25:33 <boily> FreeFull: what about, for example, the grammar expecting a =, but you dropped it and the next token is an (. so, from now on, it uses ( for assignements.
21:25:34 <ais523> however, programs can also be self-modifying
21:25:46 <FreeFull> boily: Too simple and inflexible
21:25:51 <Taneb> And Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is almost entirely unoriginal
21:25:52 <ais523> so all long-lasting programs need to come with an AI that attemps to work out what's happened to the language, and change themselves to match
21:26:01 <FreeFull> boily: And the beginning state wouldn't have an idea of assigment
21:26:11 <boily> FreeFull: indeed. how to improve, then?
21:26:26 <Bike> ais523: sounds like DIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory)
21:26:34 <FreeFull> An interesting thing would be to be able to produce a header, that you can prefix any brainfuck program with to make it execute using this language
21:27:03 <boily> wasn't there some discussion a bit while ago about embedding multiple languages together, or something like that?
21:27:09 <olsner> hmm, is that interesting or just a brainfuck interpreter?
21:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you know, i always thought the hair salon was owned by Real Fast Nora
21:27:25 <boily> olsner: it's not a brainfuck interpreter, it just looks like one.
21:27:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, it's Real Fast (Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster) Download
21:27:47 <ais523> olsner: it is interesting if it can be done in general
21:27:53 <ais523> things like the underlambda preprocessor are interesting, for instance
21:28:09 <Taneb> jsvine, I named the language after a page a spambot created on the wiki
21:28:32 <Taneb> olsner, elaborate?
21:29:03 <olsner> the obviously correct parse is (Real Fast Nora)'s
21:29:29 <boily> time to sadly depart from this illustrious channel. adieu!
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21:29:42 <Bike> the horse raced past the barn fell: a descriptivist retrospective
21:29:43 <ais523> but yeah, thinking of a name is often difficult
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21:29:48 <ais523> so sometimes we borrow them fro mspambots
21:29:49 <FreeFull> I'm thinking, you'd have a vm that runs the parser, and undefined instructions would modify some location in the vm's memory according to the rules at the time of execution
21:30:02 <FreeFull> So you could arbitrarily rewrite the interpreter
21:30:24 <ais523> FreeFull: oh, that's been done, I think
21:30:45 <ais523> Emmental was even the featured article quite recently
21:30:58 <ais523> that reminds me, it's not April any more, we should take Deadfish off the main page
21:31:50 <oerjan> `learn cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he's older than the universe hth.
21:31:59 <FreeFull> ais523: What I'm thinking of would be a bit harder, more in the spirit of malborge I think
21:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, we need to talk about your use of hth as punctuation
21:32:10 <ais523> FreeFull: most languages can be made arbitrarily difficult
21:32:15 <ais523> there just normally isn't much of a point in doing so
21:32:30 <FreeFull> It wouldn't be just straightforward metaprogramming
21:32:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean punctuation there's a completely visible period after it
21:32:57 <FreeFull> It'd be more like writing a C program that modifies the compiler in memory as it's being compiled
21:33:11 <FreeFull> Obviously you couldn't do that with standard C
21:33:59 <ais523> we need to give C++ templates I/O capabilities
21:34:03 <ais523> then you could do it with C++ >:)
21:34:36 <olsner> templates can output warnings
21:34:47 <FreeFull> C++ doesn't need more features
21:35:10 <Taneb> I'm gonna be off now
21:35:13 <olsner> (but you need heaps of post-processing to reduce those warnings to the actual data you wanted output)
21:35:24 <Taneb> jsvine, good luck with the remainder of the "interview"
21:35:56 <jsvine> Taneb: thanks! I'll be lurking for the next few days.
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21:36:04 <Bike> i thought the interview was tomorrow and this was just us dicking around
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21:36:14 <oerjan> <cpressey> jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed. <-- wait EVERYONE STOP TALKING it's too early
21:36:26 <ais523> oerjan: we're just talking to someone who showed up in the channel
21:36:54 <olsner> oerjan: besides, that's when the interview with cpressey starts, we're not in that interview
21:37:18 <jsvine> Yep. I have an "official" interview with cpressey tomorrow on this channel. But I'd like to meet as many willing esolangers as possible.
21:37:28 <olsner> (I'm guessing, since I missed the whole start of this)
21:37:33 <Bike> `pastelogs dick|fuck|shit|stack
21:37:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1214
21:38:01 <Bike> oh right there's an esolang with 'fuck' in it
21:38:12 <ais523> jsvine: you are aware that cpressey thinks it's impossible to write an interesting article about esolangs for what he thinks your target audience is, right?
21:38:27 <ais523> although it'd be amusing to prove him wrong
21:39:23 <oerjan> ok then i can skip the rest of the logs
21:39:45 <jsvine> ais523: Yep. He told me as much. Worth trying, though. And his definition of interesting is different than mine, or my editors', or our readers'.
21:40:12 <ais523> normally, I assume I know less about journalism than journalists do
21:40:12 <Bike> «2004-06-11.txt:20:25:41: <lament> fuck. 2004-06-11.txt:20:34:06: <lament> FUCK» a storied history
21:40:23 <jsvine> Inevitably, you'll all be disappointed by the result!
21:40:24 <Bike> who's the target audience anywho
21:40:54 <oerjan> Bike: financial analyzers, the kind who use haskell nowadays
21:41:12 <jsvine> The target audience is, broadly/vaguely, smart people who don't necessarily know programming and are curious about the world
21:41:56 <Bike> vaguely indeed
21:42:36 <Bike> i guess i have no idea who reads the wsj. rich people? whoever still reads newspapers? huffington post writers? total mystery
21:43:53 <jsvine> Take this with as many grains of salt as you like: the WSJ is the most widely-circulated newspaper in the U.S.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_States_by_circulation
21:43:54 <shachaf> cpressey: I hear that a dependent type system is actually not that difficult to implement. Someone keeps telling me I should read this one paper.
21:44:07 <olsner> ais523: now that you mentioned c++ and templates - a funny thing with template metaprogramming is that compilation seems easier than interpretation, a compiler pretty much looks like an interpreter
21:44:08 <Bike> so, a lot of people
21:44:31 <olsner> but an interpreter looks like crap, because putting values in types is messy
21:46:30 <nooodl_> jsvine: hmm! i definitely would've guessed new york times would be on top. i know nothing about american newspapers though
21:47:36 <kmc> jsvine: one thing I find interesting is that skill programming in weird / constrained languages is also useful for writing exploits for security holes
21:48:00 <jsvine> kmc: that *is* interesting. Examples?
21:48:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming
21:48:56 <ais523> yeah, the security angle is that most programs have locked down execution of code from outside
21:48:59 <kmc> basically you write an exploit by stringing together fragments of the legitimate code of the program you're exploiting
21:49:05 <ais523> so you have to craft your exploit entirely by cobbling together code that already exists
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21:50:10 <jsvine> Which is similar to how esolangs work?
21:50:28 <Bike> similar in that it's convoluted and weird, is the idea, i believe
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21:50:55 <kmc> it's like every executable you might want to exploit implicitly defines an esolang, and you write your exploit in that esolang
21:51:14 <ais523> yeah, it's similar to esoprogramming because you don't have the tools you normally have when writing a program
21:51:18 <ais523> you have to make do with what's available
21:51:19 <kmc> if you want to dig into the technical details, start with the paper 'The Geometry of Innocent Flesh on the Bone: Return-into-libc without Function Calls (on the x86)'
21:51:30 <jsvine> Ah, yeah, that makes sense.
21:51:40 <kmc> i'm happy to answer tech questions too (I don't know what your background is)
21:51:55 <jsvine> Huh, I'll take a look at that paper.
21:52:16 <kmc> another example is, maybe your exploit does have the ability to inject new machine code, but it has to be free of null bytes, or even has to contain only alphanumeric ASCII
21:52:34 <kmc> or every other pair of bytes needs to be 00 00
21:53:00 <kmc> these constraints arise from the details of the bug you're exploiting; maybe the input is sanitized before it reaches the vulnerable code
21:53:02 <ais523> I have program on here which, given an arbitrary file, outputs a DOS executable written entirely with printable characters that outputs that file
21:53:04 <jsvine> A bit on my background: I have no formal CS training, but have been programming (in boring languages like python, ruby and javascript) for a few years. I'm fascinated by CS theory, but grasp not enough of it.
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21:53:09 <ais523> it felt a lot like esoprogramming
21:53:23 <kmc> http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=15 is an article about alphanumeric exploits in x86 machine code
21:53:32 <ais523> my idea was that if you didn't have a copy of uudecode handy, you could nonetheless obtain programs by typing them in
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21:54:12 <kmc> ais523: I realized recently that the EICAR Standard Anti-Virus Test File is such a DOS program as well
21:54:22 <kmc> (printable program that prints a string)
21:54:27 <ais523> I'd never looked at that file before now
21:54:31 <kmc> I would paste it here, but it might cause virus scanners to flag your IRC log files :)
21:54:33 <ais523> the problem is, it's quite hard to obtain
21:54:37 <kmc> yep http://www.eicar.org/86-0-Intended-use.html
21:54:40 <ais523> it sets off every antivirus scanner in existence
21:54:43 <ais523> because that's its /job/
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21:55:48 <ais523> "providing that the file starts with the following 68 characters, and is exactly 68 bytes long"
21:56:16 <olsner> a sort-of similar thing is if a program takes a sufficiently complicated data format, the "data" (that should be untrusted) can end up being some kind of esolang without even exploiting any bugs
21:56:28 <olsner> (but I think the potential for abuse here is mostly making a program use more memory or time than it should)
21:56:58 <ais523> olsner: well there are fun things like doing distributed computation
21:57:03 <ais523> via router error messages
21:57:07 <kmc> yeah, related to esolangs is the idea of writing programs in things that were never intended to be programming languages at all
21:57:33 <kmc> there's an IOCCC entry that implements an adventure game using only the C preprocessor
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21:58:15 <kmc> and all the stuff about proving Game of Life is turing complete, Tetris is NP-hard, etc
21:58:43 <olsner> ais523: ooh, tell me more
21:59:24 <FreeFull> The .rar VM would be fun to program in if you could take any input somehow
21:59:33 <ais523> olsner: I don't know more, and am not sure if it works
21:59:45 <kmc> complexity reductions are kind of like esoteric programming... to prove that 3-coloring graphs is NP-hard, you show that you can take a logical formula and construct a graph, such that the graph has a 3-coloring if and only if the formula is satisfiable
21:59:50 <ais523> kmc: I prefer the PSPACE-complete games
21:59:54 <ais523> like Sokoban, that one's interesting
22:00:04 <ais523> (PSPACE-complete normally implies that it'd be TC given infinite memory)
22:00:23 <kmc> but of course graphs don't have anything about variables, true and false, AND and OR built in, so you need to come up with particular shaped 'gadgets' that implement these concepts in terms of just edges, points, and colors assigned to points
22:00:43 <kmc> ais523: interesting; is there a formal statement of that last idea?
22:00:57 <ais523> kmc: I don't know of one, and there might not be one
22:01:12 <ais523> because the normal construction involves putting a repeating pattern on the playfield in one diection
22:01:25 <ais523> but nothing about being PSPACE-complete implies that a playfield-like concept even exists
22:01:56 <ais523> OTOH, being the sort of game that tends to be PSPACE-complete /does/ imply that a playfield-like concept exists :)
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22:03:11 <ais523> FreeFull: that's what I said a few lines ago
22:03:27 <FreeFull> I haven't been paying attention
22:03:56 <FreeFull> I wonder if there is any analog between sokoban that allows both pulling and pushing, and reversible programming
22:04:39 <ais523> well, it's normally easy to tell if something's reversible or not
22:04:44 <ais523> (except for Burro, apparently)
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22:04:57 <ais523> there are some interesting things that can be proved as a result of reversibility
22:05:18 <ais523> e.g. any reversible program where the process of starting is reversible, that has finite memory, must terminate
22:10:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: like, you can look at a program state
22:10:56 <ais523> and determine whether the program just started or not
22:18:24 <kmc> ais523: is the argument basically that if you're in an infinite loop, you don't have the state to keep track of how many times you've gone round the loop?
22:18:34 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the largest computer anyone here has seen had 1TB of memory
22:18:38 <kmc> that's a neat result
22:19:17 <olsner> (finite memory is probably less than that)
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22:30:51 <Bike> FreeFull: i thought the pspace sokoban thing was based on a similar model to billiard ball computing so
22:32:13 <FreeFull> ais523: Can't the reversible program loop in a direction, leaving trails
22:32:31 <ais523> FreeFull: it can't leave trails forever if there's finite memory
22:32:41 <ais523> that is the usual way to write an infinite loop in a TC reversible language, though
22:36:27 <FreeFull> Oh, yeah, if there is finite memory
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22:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to beone of those results where most of the work is in the definitions, though
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22:53:35 <ais523> the OMGWTF is getting a sequel
22:53:57 <ais523> " Also, your entry only counts if you install and deploy New Relic's performance monitoring software. It's free and only takes a few minutes to do, and you'll even be able to score one of their Nerd Life T-shirts in the process"
22:54:04 <ais523> a blatant advertising sequel, it seems
22:54:56 <ais523> basically a competition to write simple programs in insane ways
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23:43:13 <Sgeo> Was jsvine the reporter?
23:44:11 <mnoqy> something about lurking for a few days, interview with cpressey tomorrow, etc etc
23:49:45 <Sgeo> He saw a line that I said, quoted by someone else
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