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00:59:35 <Sgeo_> Is the DS9 finale a 9-parter?
00:59:39 <Sgeo_> Because I think I'm in it
00:59:54 <Sgeo_> I'm in what is at LEAST a 4-parter nearish to the end
01:00:12 <shachaf> ask yourself: is the ds1 finale a 1-parter?
01:01:04 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo_, the last non-finale episode is the holodeck heist one
01:02:09 <Sgeo_> "Inter Arma Enim Silent Lages" is part of the finale?
01:02:21 <Sgeo_> I don't remember Penumbra saying that it's the continuation
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01:23:18 <Bike> what's inside the cube
01:23:59 <Phantom__Hoover> you get to... fuck around with everyone else who buys molyneux's next game
01:24:33 <Bike> iunno i like fucking around
01:24:52 <Bike> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_Ey1SA9mqt5g/TdBDY_f0FzI/AAAAAAAAA_k/b7jGEFjSBxM/fighting%20racism.jpg
01:25:49 <Bike> "I [want] to thank everyone, even the haters for taking part in Curiosity"
01:26:21 <shachaf> I [should] start putting random words in [square brackets].
01:26:49 <Bike> The original word was "won't"
01:27:31 <Jafet> People won't want to be wont
01:28:03 <shachaf> Perhaps the meaning is "I'm wont to thank everyone"
01:28:09 <shachaf> seems more likely to me!!!!
01:30:44 <Jafet> The flying bismuth bronze bolt strikes The Rattlesnake in the head, tearing the muscle, shattering the skull and tearing the brain!
01:30:52 <Jafet> The Rattlesnake is propelled away by the force of the blow! The Rattlesnake's body skids along the ground, bruising the fat!
01:30:56 <Jafet> Kosoth Ulengingish has become a Hunter.
01:31:03 <Jafet> I'm starting to like this game
01:31:06 <shachaf> i won t accept that greeting
01:31:41 <lambdabot> *** "sass" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:31:41 <lambdabot> n 1: an impudent or insolent rejoinder; "don't give me any of
01:31:41 <lambdabot> your sass" [syn: {sass}, {sassing}, {backtalk}, {back
01:31:45 <lambdabot> v 1: answer back in an impudent or insolent manner; "don't sass
01:31:47 <lambdabot> me!"; "The teacher punished the students who were sassing
01:31:57 <shachaf> oh hey you're being quoted in @wn
01:32:15 <Jafet> Is that like being quoted in HN
01:32:32 <shachaf> Jafet: let's compromise on being quoted in HWN
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02:06:18 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with this program? It doesn't work. http://sprunge.us/CLdK
02:06:41 <copumpkin> if I were to guess, I'd say you hit the nail on the head
02:07:07 <shachaf> see http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=396
02:07:25 <zzo38> I mean specifically.
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02:08:20 <Bike> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=400 this is basically Kadath
02:09:22 <zzo38> I mean do you know what is specifically wrong what part?
02:10:17 <copumpkin> nope, it's a little hard to diagnose such a large unit
02:10:49 <shachaf> copumpkin: that looks like a healthy dinner
02:20:41 <zzo38> Who can help me with this program? It does partially works, after I fixed a few mistakes that caused it to not work at all.
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02:41:50 <Sgeo_> ) 'And so Im back! From outer space!'
02:41:50 <jconn> Sgeo_: And so Im back! From outer space!
02:42:09 <Sgeo_> Apparently in the Star Trek world, creating a disease means you know how to cure it.
02:42:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
02:44:12 <Bike> error function list
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03:02:47 <copumpkin> was that a gloria gaynor reference?
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04:28:04 <zzo38> I realize how much kind of time controls might be made for different games (including the combination), such as shot clock, chess clock, battle clock, match clock, byoyomi, timer increments, etc, and what happens when you run out of time can also be varied.
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04:47:26 <copumpkin> http://forlackofabettercomic.com/?id=162
04:48:47 <shachaf> i can confirm that's what copumpkin looks like
05:07:45 * Sgeo_ is about to watch "What You Leave Behind
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05:13:48 <coppro> pikhq: moved out yet? :P
05:30:33 <kmc> coppro: what cheeses are thoses?
05:31:27 <kmc> er, copumpkin ^
05:32:08 <copumpkin> hmm, delice de bourgogne, iberico, roquefort, comté, and emmental
05:38:26 <kmc> shachaf: is @WN like HWN but for @
05:38:31 <kmc> (cc: elliott)
05:38:54 <coppro> elliott: why is buttermilk so awesome?
05:39:14 <shachaf> ion: olist is for Order of the Stick updates.
05:42:25 <zzo38> I have added another Deadfish implementation.
05:45:07 <zzo38> This one is a Z-machine program.
05:52:30 <kmc> what is the point of Deadfish
05:52:56 <kmc> i should probably implement Gob's Program in Befunge
05:53:17 <kmc> unsigned int x; /* make a positive integer and call it x */
05:54:47 <Bike> @tell phantom_hoover https://twitter.com/mc_hankins/status/338742820129107968/photo/1 more significance
05:56:25 <kmc> hm Gob's Program is just a juvenile truth machine
05:56:40 <kmc> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine)
06:06:20 <zzo38> Maybe this program can be shortened even more. Currently it is 72 bytes not counting a header, when it is compiled. Changing PRINTC to do PRINTI with a custom alphabet table with only '>' can shorten a bit more (the rest of the alphabet table will overlap the program, and isn't used, unless it echos the command also using the alphabet table!)
06:07:59 <zzo38> It is only 16-bit numbers, though, and is signed (this is due to how Z-machine works).
06:15:20 <zzo38> Can the Deadfish implementation be made with DNA, or one using a hardware programming language (such as Verilog and VHDL), or etc ?
06:16:04 <zzo38> The Deadfish implementation in AWK is short: sub(/o/,x=x*(x>0&&x-256)*x^/s/+/i/-/d/)
06:16:31 <zzo38> kmc: I don't really know what is the point of Deadfish, or of the XKCD variation, but I do know that the XKCD variation can be implemented in dc.
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06:27:01 <zzo38> There isn't one in INTERCAL yet.
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08:10:11 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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09:02:32 <Taneb> I'm having to repeatedly change the source so it compiles with newer versions of Hashable
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09:11:27 <Taneb> It's probably fixed in HEAD
09:11:32 <Taneb> And I've got it working now
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09:12:15 <Taneb> Yeah, it's fixed in HEAD
09:12:25 <Taneb> But I'm using the Hackage version
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09:39:30 <fizzie> "VIDEO: [H264] 640x480 24bpp 90000.000 fps 4004.6 kbps (488.8 kbyte/s)" that's a lot of fps.
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09:42:29 <Taneb> ...constructor names are not required to be distinct between different datatypes? What is this madness?
09:43:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
09:48:31 <shachaf> Taneb: Well, you can figure it out from the type. So why not?
09:48:45 <Taneb> shachaf, it feels a bit weird
09:50:16 <Taneb> This is actually making me feel dizzy
10:04:13 <fizzie> The calmnoqy before the storm.
10:18:39 <fizzie> You folks surely know if there's some (free) "An-druid Abb" that'd basically do nothing else but capture video from the (front-facing) camera, encode it, and then stream it over, say, RTP/RTSP or something? The closest I've come across is this "IP Webcam", which does some sort of MJPEG-over-HTTP stream, but it's quite quirky and slightly sluggish; I think it uses some sort of software encoder, ...
10:18:45 <fizzie> ... instead of whatever hardware-assisted fancitude the regular video recording app uses. (And then things like Qik, Livestream and Ustream which do the right thing, but only via third-party services.)
10:22:54 <Taneb> Learning Agda, I have a feeling I'm going to come to despise the Mathematical Operators unicode block
10:27:03 <mnoqy> theres plenty more to agda than the mathematical operators unicode block
10:27:10 <mnoqy> take, for example, the other unicode blocks
10:37:38 <cpressey> hmm... has anyone ever made a Zalgo-oriented esolang?
10:38:55 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:39:46 <shachaf> mnoqy, Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahBU4Py5cPg
10:40:57 <cpressey> I̛̹̩̪͙͓̼̙ͥ͊ͨ́fͪ͜͏͈̯͖̝̙ ͕̳͍̬̯̙͉ͯͮ͐ͣ͌̇̈́̏n̡̡̗̳͉̖̙̹̰̮͌̍ͫ̋o̞͈̅̊̀̈́̿̿̚t̽̒͗̒̑ͩ̿͑͏͉̪̱̦̣͖̀͞,̵̛̥̟̔͐ͥͯ̓̒ͦ̚ ̡̨̤͔͎͎͇̗͊͊̐͛̆ͯͅͅț̰̠̱͌͊ͬͫ̏̌͠ͅh̯̞̭̗̔̆̏̕͠͡e̅̏͏̧̩̼̗͇̮̹̫̥n̶̓͏̮̥̳̪͇͟ ͍̘͉̖̟̻̣̒͆ͨ̚̕͘ͅs͓̱͚̗͉̰͊ͦ͐̿ͨ̔̓͂ͅô̱̘̹͎̥̤͛̀ḿ̯͈̗̾ͮͫ̾̒͗͗̈́ė̯̘͔̺͔̜̞ͯ̊̅̑̔oͧ̏ͤ͗̊̑̂҉̷̢
10:41:33 <cpressey> see, that could be a brainfuck interpreter or something right there, just in the combining characters
10:42:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bonjour: not found
10:42:44 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:43:15 <shachaf> Surely you mean "tervetuloa".
10:43:21 <shachaf> `run echo i love mononoids. they are so easy | zalgo
10:43:25 <HackEgo> i͛͛ ̗̎l̈́̽o̴ͨv̡̊e̵ͣ ̲͑m͒̽ò̇n̎͡o͎͌n̂̎ò̦i̫ͯd͊̆s͚̟.ͯ̽ ̸͝t̺̚ĥ͎e̖͈y̽͆ ̐̀a̓̉r͉ͮe̺̅ ̒̈s̱͛o̐̀ ͧͯe̮ͬaͨ́s͚̹y̭͑
10:44:19 <shachaf> `run echo i love mononoids. they are so easy | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:44:22 <HackEgo> i̴̧̫̦̾͋̂̇ͥͅ ̵̞̏͛̅͆ͮ̓͢͞ļ͚̯͓͊ͤ̊͌͐́ơ̺̜ͭ́́ͩ̔ͨ͝v͍̲͔͎̝ͨ͌̇͘͏e̩̲̯̦̤ͩ͛͂̽̋ ͇͍̯̦̣̩͆́̽ͩm͎̜̝͓̙͖ͣ̀̀͟ó̘͈͖̫ͥ̅͗̽ͮn̶͉̼̔็͕͚̿̈́͟ơ͉͔͚̟͗̀̎̋̎ņ̣͙̤̪ͦ͊̊͞ͅo͓̭̗̩̫̿͒̋̔ͅì̢̬̯̳̜̔̑͝͡d̸͇͉̝̀̀ͫͧͮ̀s̨͙̠͎̠̲͑̑ͦ͘.̹̮̼̽̓̀
10:44:28 <shachaf> that messes up my terminal so good
10:44:32 <Taneb> `welcome.fr cpressey
10:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcome.fr: not found
10:44:51 <shachaf> `run echo Taneb | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:44:54 <HackEgo> T̶̙̪̰̘̲͕ͩ̓͘a̴̰̞̙ͭ́͛̄ͪ̔n̡̯̂ͭ́͗̀͢͠͏ě͓̼͍̻͌͒̍͐͠b̛͏̴̢̙͕ͯ͑͗͢
10:45:20 <shachaf> `run echo do y'all see what i see | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:45:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
10:45:25 <Taneb> `run echo shachaf | zalgo | hh | zalgo
10:45:27 <HackEgo> bash: hh: command not found \ close failed in file object destructor: \ Error in sys.excepthook: \ \ Original exception was:
10:45:30 <shachaf> `run echo do y\'all see what i see | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
10:45:31 <Taneb> `run echo shachaf | zalgo | h | zalgo
10:45:33 <HackEgo> d͇͔̀́็̜҉̥̤̄o̧̼͉̮̓ͬ̓̂̑͘ ̴̨̼̻͔ͤͬ͒̏ͅy̪̯̘̝̿̇͑ͥ̉ͫ'̷̶̸͔̫̖̤̭̂͐a̫̹̤̱ͮ̓̿͒ͬ̉l̳͔̳̤̦̄͋́͏̡l̡͔͉̙͐ͥ͒̌҉ͯ ̺̝̹̜̹̀͆̏ͣ͝ș̛ͩ̃͐͡҉̹̎̂e͏͔̼̺̯̟̔ͦ̂͡e̵̟͔ͦ͛̐͝҉̓͒ ̡̘̲̤͋ͪ̍ͤ̋͐ẁ̴̮̬͎̫̐̿̈́͡ḩ̴̢̝͈͆̃̋͋̕ą̞̙̰̂̈̋͊̇͜t̶̼̾͆̆̈́
10:45:33 <HackEgo> s̹̉̽͝h̡็̳̇a̻̭̺͜ĉ͎็̰h̛̖̪ͫa̢͕̕͝f̶̻̐̈́
10:45:42 <Taneb> `run echo Taneb | h | zalgo | h | zalgo
10:45:45 <HackEgo> Ṱ̶ͨ͞aͪ็̒ͪh̥͒͡͠n̸ͣ͆̑e̗͆̈̚h̖ͮ̓ͮb̧͛ͩ͜
10:45:47 <shachaf> @brain are you thinking what Taneb is thinking?
10:45:47 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but culottes have a tendency to ride up so.
10:45:58 <shachaf> Taneb: What's your postal address?
10:46:15 <cpressey> whhh shouldn't that be @pinky ?
10:46:31 <shachaf> cpressey: brain is an abbreviation for pinky and the brain
10:46:41 <shachaf> > fix ("pinky and the "++)
10:46:43 <lambdabot> "pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pinky and the pink...
10:46:58 <shachaf> brain brain brain brain / brain brain brain brain / NARF
10:47:26 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what i'm pondering?
10:47:26 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
10:47:34 <shachaf> @brain also gives Brain quotes sometimes.
10:47:35 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so, Brain, but we'll never get a monkey to use dental floss.
10:47:44 <cpressey> shachaf: yes but that is not an answer to my question
10:47:56 <shachaf> cpressey: I'm sorry, I'm not a moralist.
10:48:02 <shachaf> I don't answer "should" questions.
10:49:40 <shachaf> cpressey: Did you send that email?
10:54:03 <cpressey> fine, fine, fine, in my opinion which is not to be assumed to be shared by anyone else at all @pinky would have a much better cadence than @brain if it's going to return Pinky quotes.
10:54:13 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but don't you need a swimming pool to play Marco Polo?
10:54:13 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but there's still a bug stuck in here from last time.
10:54:14 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... ooh, it's all too much for me.
10:54:15 <lambdabot> Gee, Brain, what are we going to do tonight?
10:54:15 <lambdabot> The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!
10:54:15 <lambdabot> The game does not conclude until the woman with the eating disorder ululates.
10:54:18 <lambdabot> Brain! Brain! You aren't going to leave me!!!???You know what happened to Jerry Lewis after Dean Martin left him!!!
10:54:53 <cpressey> shachaf: i feel you might still not be getting what i'm getting at but never mind
10:56:09 <shachaf> cpressey: The important part of the I'm-not-a-moralist thing is that moraliszing about lambdabot is useless.
10:58:19 * cpressey checks the muzzle of his ray gun to make sure it's not clogged or something
11:01:19 <shachaf> `run quotes cpressey | shuf
11:01:21 <HackEgo> 252) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME. \ 124) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 267) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTA
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11:11:20 <Taneb> I'm having trouble with this exercise
11:12:19 <Taneb> cpressey, I go with what my spell checker tells me
11:12:28 <Taneb> Currently it's set to British spelling
11:12:34 <Taneb> Which is appropriate because I am in the UK
11:12:44 <shachaf> I thought you were in Hexham.
11:13:03 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm in a British enclave
11:15:22 * cpressey whacks his ray gun against the bulkhead a couple of times
11:15:35 <cpressey> i don't know what's up with this thing
11:17:57 <cpressey> well, all I know is that Phantom_Hoover must have had his spell checker set to some really kick-ass dialect of English when he was writing his latest blog post, that's all.
11:18:06 <cpressey> and editing it, too, 'cos it now says "exersise"
11:20:42 <Taneb> I suspect that maybe his browser was glitching and only spell-checked the first paragraph
11:20:52 <shachaf> Those articles on phantom-hoover.tumblr.com don't seem a whole lot like Phantom_Hoover at all.
11:20:59 <shachaf> I wonder whether something is up.
11:25:24 <Taneb> Any, as I was saying, I'm having trouble with this exercise
11:25:51 <Taneb> Exercise 2.1 c in http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~ulfn/papers/afp08/tutorial.pdf
11:26:36 <shachaf> Taneb: want another exercise??
11:26:43 <shachaf> in-place matrix transposition
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12:56:31 <boily> good morning! what is a tyhjä?
12:59:27 <shachaf> good morning! what is a fizzie?
12:59:52 <fizzie> http://www.sss.fi/uutiset/143026_515h.JPG <- governance in action.
13:00:08 <fizzie> (It's the voting-board in the Finnish parliament.)
13:01:10 -!- boily has set topic: LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | I vote TYHJIÄ.
13:01:39 <boily> unless you tell me that tyhjä and tyhjiä are both valid words.
13:01:44 <fizzie> boily: That's actually something like "EMPTIES"; since it's counting the number of. I'm sure it says TYHJÄ in the button.
13:02:14 -!- boily has set topic: LLVM, Z-machine, Nintendo Famicom, etc | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | I vote TYHJÄ..
13:02:33 <boily> couldn't you have normal plurals? like vide and vides?
13:05:06 <fizzie> We have more or less normal plurals. Tyhjät would be the normal plural of tyhjä, using the most common -t suffix. It's just... complicated.
13:05:54 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Plurals -- nominative plural vs. inflected plural.
13:06:32 <fizzie> (The huone -> huoneita is, I think, the same as tyhjä -> tyhjiä.)
13:06:39 <boily> your language is a facebook relationship.
13:08:07 <fizzie> Empty room -> (some) empty rooms / (the) empty rooms :: tyhjä huone -> tyhjiä huoneita / tyhjät huoneet.
13:09:10 <boily> salle vide -> des salles vides / les salles vides.
13:10:42 <fizzie> in the empty room -> in the empty rooms :: tyhjässä huoneessa -> tyhjissä huoneissa. See, simple.
13:11:16 <boily> I think I'm gonna go fetch some coffee, and reflect on the matter when my brain'll have fully booted...
13:26:09 <cpressey> sigh, i leave the room for ten minutes and my cat starts recommending films to y'all
13:26:39 <Taneb> cpressey, did you ever here the legend of Friendship Mouse?
13:27:02 <Taneb> AND NOW YOU NEVER WILL!
13:28:32 <cpressey> DAMN YOU, TANEB! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
13:29:43 <shachaf> Does Anyone Not Enjoy BRAAAAAINS
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13:57:57 <oerjan> <cpressey> DAMN YOU, TANEB! DAMN YOU TO HELL! <-- and thus starts the great cpressey - ais523 flamewar.
13:58:19 <oerjan> also, interviewing me would be a bad idea hth
13:59:25 <Jafet> "interviewing me would be a bad idea hth" -- oerjan
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13:59:51 <oerjan> Jafet: HackEgo is thataway hth
14:00:17 <Jafet> Maybe we can interview fungot.
14:00:17 <fungot> Jafet: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! marle too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear!
14:00:54 <Jafet> It seems enthusiastic.
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14:02:56 <cpressey> oerjan: OH OK AND HERE I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA
14:03:56 <cpressey> ftr I have no idea if "Friendship Mouse" is A Thing or something Taneb just made up, nor do I have any inkling as to its possible relationship to ais523
14:05:08 <elliott> I don't think #esoteric is "about" inklings
14:05:55 <cpressey> knowledge, awareness, notion, idea, information
14:06:02 <cpressey> oh, not any of those things either? ok
14:07:36 <elliott> are there any updates to the wsj saga
14:07:52 <lambdabot> *** "saga" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
14:07:52 <lambdabot> n 1: a narrative telling the adventures of a hero or a family;
14:07:52 <lambdabot> originally (12th to 14th centuries) a story of the families
14:07:52 <lambdabot> that settled Iceland and their descendants but now any
14:07:54 <lambdabot> prose narrative that resembles such an account
14:08:28 <cpressey> elliott: cpressey sent email, cpressey awaits response
14:08:40 <elliott> cpressey talks in third person
14:10:00 <cpressey> would you have preferred {TaskId: 1, Title: "send email", AssignedTo: "cpressey", State: "done"}
14:10:38 <cpressey> on a little yellow sticky note
14:10:51 <elliott> you write... json on sticky notes?
14:11:07 <elliott> don't you have to quote the keys
14:11:50 <fizzie> If I recall the official grammar right, you do.
14:12:18 <cpressey> look, just because i write json on sticky notes doesn't mean THAT was json
14:12:36 <elliott> are you sure you're following the "use json for good not evil" part of the license cpressey
14:13:55 <cpressey> excuse me while i confer with my counsel
14:14:02 <Jafet> <?xml version="1.0"?><TaskNotification><Task TaskID="1" State="done"><Title>send email</Title><Assignees><Assignee>cpressey</Assignee></Assignees></Task></TaskNotification>
14:15:01 <fizzie> What, no namespace declarations?
14:15:01 <boily> (tell 'Jafet '(You vile XML fiend that you are))
14:16:02 <pikhq> coppro: If by "moved out" you mean "
14:16:12 <pikhq> coppro: If by "moved out" you mean "went to MO for summer internship" then yes.
14:16:22 <pikhq> Technically not moved out as yet, but.
14:16:29 <Jafet> (at (least (XML (doesn '(t (make (you (do (this))))))))
14:22:02 <pikhq> Two states, 833 miles, or 12 hours away.
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14:34:42 <Koen_> or 6 hours if you're riding a bike
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15:02:01 <pikhq> " Direct TCP access to remote HTTPS servers (port 443) is blocked."
15:03:05 <pikhq> Hmm, seems to be a false report on netalyzr's part.
15:03:50 <pikhq> Assuming github actually *does* have a SHA-1 fingerprint of CE 67 99 25 2C AC 78 12 7D 94 B5 62 2C 31 C5 16 A6 34 73 53
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15:43:18 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:54:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I finished DS9
15:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> good, you're making progress on working off your shit tv sci-fi debt
15:59:14 <elliott> cpressey: so you were implementing @ while you were away right
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16:10:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you just imply DS9 and Farscape are shit TV?
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16:11:56 <oerjan> i think he was implying doctor who is, though
16:17:41 <cpressey> elliott: yes, and for extra challenge, i've been implementing it in denim and broken glass (note: i didn't bother to look up what @ is before replying to you)
16:18:18 <cpressey> i think my cat actually had a good idea there, i think instead of shit tv y'all should watch "M"
16:18:53 <elliott> cpressey: oh were you not around when elliottOS became @
16:19:10 <cpressey> if i was i didn't notice. maybe i was.
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16:40:44 <cpressey> i think i was. oh hey http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html that's still there
16:46:36 <elliott> i found that again recently because osmeone asked about it or something. past me is super annoying
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16:48:23 <pikhq_> I think that someone was me?
16:49:24 <AnotherTest> It appears Clint Eastwood is an anagram of Old West Action, heh
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17:17:57 <boily> cpressey: lovely usage of the diaeresis in reëncode.
17:19:29 <cpressey> boily: don't compliment me, compliment elliott. btw, was there a... question... or something, that you wanted to ask me?
17:20:03 <boily> sorry, didn't see the author at the end.
17:20:29 <boily> about that question, maybe. I can't remember. (I can't recall. I got no memories, of anything at all ♪)
17:21:36 <cpressey> ah well i know what that's like
17:22:01 * cpressey gives a hard, incredulous, slightly-disgusted-looking glare in elliott
17:22:33 <cpressey> damned hard to type with a pen in your hand i really ought to put thuis thing down
17:22:39 <boily> fizzie: that didn't sound finnish to me.
17:23:56 <elliott> boily: you know, _the_ question.
17:24:26 <Sgeo> boily, Big Finish?
17:24:29 <fizzie> boily: It's not, though "elit" and "hurja" would be words pretty close to those. (They don't quite work as a sentence, sadly.)
17:27:26 <boily> elliott: ah! if it's about the coördinates and weigh...
17:27:52 <boily> cpressey: I'd be honoured to compile your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh into my humble log.
17:28:23 <boily> (it's for the greater good of humanity, viz. to demonstrate that the center of the Universe isn't in hexham.)
17:28:27 <fizzie> boily: So where's the Google Maps view of this log?
17:29:00 <boily> fizzie: as soon as elliott gives me something easily parsable.
17:29:44 <elliott> cpressey: oh hey you don't know about the whole hexham thing do you
17:30:05 <cpressey> well I've heard the name enough now but no
17:30:26 <boily> fizzie: you sound feverish and fungotty. is everything fine? do you feel dizzy, sweaty, have urges to eat ice cream with pickles?
17:30:26 <fungot> boily: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! cider please! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a treasure there... found the treasure!! probably filled with mystical forest powers are being drained. why not? then you should leave quickly!
17:30:32 <Bike> the hexham experiment
17:30:39 <elliott> cpressey: well you see i live in this small pretty rural town called hexham, pop ~11k or so
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17:30:57 <elliott> cpressey: taneb arrives here like a year or two ago, few weeks later we find out he's from the same fucking town
17:31:08 <fizzie> boily: "parsa" is Finnish for asparagus.
17:31:18 <boily> fizzie: ah. makes sense.
17:31:25 <fizzie> ("From Russian спаржа.")
17:31:58 <Bike> and they haven't met irl because they're both creepy losers
17:32:01 <Taneb> We're around the same age, broadly similar interests, in the same small town, and we have never met
17:32:11 <Taneb> Bike, hey, I'm not a loser!
17:32:33 <boily> Bike: I second your motion that Taneb's creepy.
17:32:44 <cpressey> well my current location is ZOMGCLASSIFIED but i can reveal that i'm now geographically closer to Hexham than I've ever been before in my file. so there ya go.
17:33:19 <cpressey> as for my weight, i'll have to get a bathroom scale
17:33:21 <boily> I'll put ZOMGHEXHAMIFIED.
17:33:35 <elliott> cpressey: is it actually in the uk or is this just a very tenuous definition of closer
17:33:48 <cpressey> er, i'm *positive* i noticed i typed "file" and corrected it with "life" but i probably just typed "file" again
17:33:49 <Bike> well before now he's always been in gansu
17:33:53 <elliott> also will it be revealed as soon as you design a language and have to sign it
17:33:54 <Bike> but now he lives in turkmenistan
17:33:57 <Taneb> Is cpressey in a super-secret Canadia military base in Acomb
17:34:09 <cpressey> i mean, i almost did it again that time too
17:34:19 <boily> probably. Canada is very mysterious.
17:34:27 <elliott> cpressey: ah, you're in Cornwall, WTF.
17:34:37 <Bike> is cornwall even real
17:35:07 <elliott> cpressey: is cornwall just what you put on language specs to mislead the feds
17:35:37 <cpressey> sigh, no, you got me, I'm presently in Cornwall
17:35:41 <boily> cpressey: cornwall, the one you get to from the 401?
17:35:51 <elliott> cpressey's shameful secret revealed
17:35:52 <cpressey> boily: no, the one that one is named after
17:36:05 <elliott> are you people talking about canada
17:36:21 <boily> yes. 401 is secret code for a vile highway in ON.
17:36:25 <cpressey> elliott: yes, everything in Canada is named after something in either England or France
17:36:33 <boily> (you and your damned good quality highway with decent drivers!)
17:36:54 <Taneb> Quebec is named after a small town in County Durham
17:36:54 <elliott> cpressey: it bears pointing out that neither Canada nor France exist
17:36:59 <boily> (why can't we have nice asphalt here... oh yeah. winters and italian mafia.)
17:37:14 * boily whacks Taneb with a poutine
17:37:15 <Sgeo> Apparently there's a famous MIDI file called clouds.mid
17:37:24 <Bike> a famous MIDI file
17:37:34 <Taneb> I vaguely remember deserving that
17:38:02 <boily> Taneb: you always do.
17:38:25 <Sgeo> https://soundcloud.com/brianorr/clouds
17:39:06 <elliott> cpressey: btw, "After all (and if you'll forgive the anthropomorphizing self-insertion in this sentence), if you pass me a primitive recursive function, and I'm primitive recursive, I'll remain primitive recursive no matter how many times I call your function." isn't quite true, I don't think
17:39:07 <fizzie> I live closest to Hexham (approx. 1698876 metres) that I have ever lived before (approx. 1699085 metres), so maybe that counts as quite Hexhamified too.
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17:39:25 <elliott> cpressey: higher-order "primitive recursion" can express ackermann
17:39:57 <cpressey> elliott: explain how sentence is false
17:40:09 <elliott> cpressey: well, ackermann is not primitive recursive.
17:40:41 <cpressey> well, define "higher-order primtive recursion" please
17:40:49 <elliott> yes, that's the harder part :P
17:41:00 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function#Definition_and_properties has a higher-order "primitive recursive" definition
17:41:34 <Bike> 7535000 meters for me apparently. that's a lot of meters
17:41:54 <fizzie> (Huh, it's only 1.7 kilokilometres to Hexham? That's disturbingly close.)
17:42:15 <cpressey> elliott: can you give me some text I can ^F into my browser to get to "the bottom" to which you refer
17:42:21 <fizzie> Uh I mean megametres SI COPS DON'T TASE ME
17:42:53 <boily> fizzie: use leagues and furlongs. it's better for your safety.
17:42:55 <Bike> cpressey: "currying". it's only a page down
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17:43:38 <elliott> (in particular this is why you can define Ackermann in Coq or Agda or whatever without problems)
17:43:48 <fizzie> boily: Almost exactly a million Smoots. (One of the units Google Earth's ruler supports.)
17:43:56 <elliott> (despite the only kind of recursion you get on naturals being the standard induction principle)
17:44:06 <elliott> (well, both Coq and Agda are weird about that but whatever)
17:44:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's written in lowercase. A megasmoot, then.
17:47:01 <cpressey> "In a category with exponentials" which, of course, wikipedia goes into great deal about what they mean there
17:49:22 <Bike> in a category with tetration,
17:49:58 <elliott> cpressey: that means you have "functions" (after the B^A set theory notation for A -> B) in the category
17:50:09 <elliott> or basically it means that you have objects representing arrows
17:50:16 <elliott> (I don't know why it mentions it at all honestly)
17:50:40 <elliott> it's really just saying you get a curried ackermann out of it given that you have higher-order functions
17:55:20 <cpressey> if you zoom out on that paragraph, it says: "Ackermann grows faster than any primitive recursive function. Here's a primitive recursive definition for the Ackermann function: ..." which -- if you ask me -- is really begging for a *leetle* more "and you see, this is OK because" verbiage in there somewhere.
17:56:08 <Bike> well in the first sentence's context "primitive recursive function" excludes higher order functions doesn't it
17:56:18 <elliott> cpressey: yes it's bad... it is a different kind of primitive recursion
17:56:24 <elliott> "The primitive recursive functions are among the number-theoretic functions, which are functions from the natural numbers (nonnegative integers) {0, 1, 2, ...} to the natural numbers." -- WP
17:56:38 <elliott> if you add higher-order functions to that mix, then you can express ackermann, is the point
17:57:04 <cpressey> I'm perfectly happy to clarify the line in the Exanoke docs but to do so it would really help to know... if/how/how not Exanoke is "higher-order primitive recursive". because it is, sorta, but i suspect, not in the way that the paragraph in wp is describing it
17:57:11 <elliott> so perhaps it's best to say that adding higher-order functions gives you "structural recursion", but not strict "primitive recursion"
17:57:37 <cpressey> can you write that defn on the wp page, in Exanoke
17:57:51 <elliott> I don't think you can even return functions can you?
17:58:46 <elliott> structural recursion with higher-order functions is nicer than primitive recursion anyway :P
17:58:49 <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
17:58:54 <elliott> so no worries if you can imo
17:59:08 <elliott> `addquote <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
17:59:15 <HackEgo> 1040) <cpressey> man, i don't remember. i'm semi-retired now. i don't do esolangs, mostly i just make furry fanart
18:00:41 <cpressey> "Higher-order functions are not used."
18:01:15 <olsner> afaik nothing says you can't make furry fanart using higher-order functions
18:01:55 <cpressey> if you really really want me to be specific about excluding higher-order functions in that statement, even though higher-order functions aren't being used in the language at all, ... fine, but i get to call you visit your grave after you're dead and spraypaint "BLOODY PEDANT, REALLY" on it
18:02:37 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, anthracite is what's added in your Dwarf Fortress mod, right?
18:02:45 <Bike> we have a gravedancing party planned for when elliott dies, cpressey
18:02:48 <Bike> you wanna rsvp?
18:03:57 <Bike> also is it porn or not this is important
18:04:15 * coppro goes to read conversation
18:04:40 <cpressey> Bike: i'd love to but presumably i will actually be too engrossed in sketching one of the characters from Star Fox, at the time
18:04:48 <elliott> cpressey: anyway i am confused as to what you are saying
18:04:58 <elliott> cpressey: I was responding to
18:04:58 <elliott> Limited support for higher-order functions could be added, possibly even to Exanoke (as long as the "no mutual recursion" rule is still observed.) After all (and if you'll forgive the anthropomorphizing self-insertion in this sentence), if you pass me a primitive recursive function, and I'm primitive recursive, I'll remain primitive recursive no matter how many times I call your function.
18:05:20 <cpressey> ah, well, that's maybe different. but it IS speculation. so
18:05:23 <elliott> which seemed to be saying that adding higher-order functions to exanoke would not allow you to write any "more" functions than the strict primitive recursion it presumably does now
18:05:31 <elliott> and I was saying, I think you are wrong, depending on what you mean by that
18:07:05 <elliott> cpressey: anyway I think you are not the first person who will be spraypainting that on my grave
18:07:15 <cpressey> i think it becomes woefully unclear because there are, pretty clearly, "first-order primitive recursive functions", the properties of which i'm fairly familiar, and "higher-order primitive recursive functions", the properties of which i'm not at all familiar with (but presumably they're not as powerful as general recursive functions. unless they are.)
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18:11:33 <elliott> you can express pretty much anything you'd want to with sufficiently powerful structural recursion, at least
18:11:43 <cpressey> also... my sentence doesn't say anything about returning functions -- granted it does say "higher-order" but it could say "functions as (almost) first-class objects (you can pass them but not create new ones)" instead
18:11:59 <cpressey> it would be great if there was a name for that
18:11:59 <elliott> right that's why it depends on what you meant by that :P
18:12:20 <elliott> but, erm, you could make Iter into a three-argument function
18:12:25 <elliott> and Ack into a two-argument function
18:12:35 <elliott> and I think it'd still be definable and structural by Exanoke's definition, I think?
18:13:21 <cpressey> just to go back to the point, "HO PR" might be relatable to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzegorczyk_hierarchy or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast-growing_hierarchy maybe
18:14:01 <cpressey> thank you for bringing it up. if i feel like fixing it, i will.
18:16:31 <cpressey> i really do suspect though, if you can't make new functions (but you can pass them), it's still FO PR (proof sketch: replace every defined function with a code integer, and replace every call to a passed-in function with a switch statement)
18:16:52 <elliott> probably someone has analysed the exact computational power of martin-lof type theory or whatever
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18:17:21 <elliott> cpressey: yes, I suspect you're right
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18:24:25 <cpressey> if i try to look for anything martin-lof in complexity theory i get mostly stuff about martin-lof randomness. i think that's a very different thing.
18:25:09 <cpressey> IS THIS ONE OF THOSE LAMBDA CUBE DEALIES
18:26:55 <boily> `quote FOUR ROTATIONS
18:27:03 <HackEgo> 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week \ 641) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add
18:27:18 <boily> HackEgo is case insensitive???
18:27:39 <boily> (or, probably worse, my mind's abysmally bad today.)
18:28:02 <elliott> cpressey: martin-lof is actually gene ray
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18:35:54 <Sgeo> Someone is asking me for a refund for something I don't sell.
18:37:15 <cpressey> sounds like the setup for a Marx brothers joke
18:37:35 <elliott> well, I found "Expressing computational complexity in constructive type theory". which is irrelevant to cpressey's question but I am probably going to read it anyway.
18:37:48 <Bike> `quote rotation
18:37:50 <HackEgo> 899) <shachaf> FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE
18:38:18 <Bike> ii am the overlord
18:38:23 <boily> I feel reassured now. or maybe not. the idea of a lambdaïzed cube scares me.
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18:38:56 <Bike> Yesterday i was reading about racist ccubes.
18:38:58 <Bike> pretty harrowing
18:42:35 <cpressey> elliott: that might be good. i was interested in this for a while maybe 5 or 6 months ago. i don't actually think a whole lot is known (or cared about) for complexity classes between PR (FO primitive recursive) and R (general recursive). but in a pinch, you can always just make one up, and figure out what it's equal to later. clearly PR < HOPR < R
18:43:15 <cpressey> not sure where System F and martin-lof (is that the same as LF?) stand wrt each other
18:43:54 <cpressey> PR is freakin' huge in practical terms anyway, it seems kind of weird to care
18:44:06 <Sgeo> cpressey, is cat's eye, in fact, turing-complete?
18:44:35 <elliott> that uses a dependently-typed lambda calculus but not the exact same one as Martin-Lof I think
18:44:59 <cpressey> Sgeo: well... I don't think "cat's eye" is a language, so... type error.
18:45:09 <elliott> I just meant your "standard" dependently lambda calculus/constructive type theory with data types in general
18:45:26 <Sgeo> .tc TLD should only be for turing-complete programming languages
18:45:30 <cpressey> elliott: they all have little fiddly differences that make them just barely different from each other don't they
18:45:36 <Sgeo> ruby.tc java.tc brainfuck.tc
18:45:41 <Sgeo> No c.tc though
18:45:46 <elliott> cpressey: everyone loves fiddly differences
18:45:53 <elliott> cpressey: it's a nice NIH barrier!
18:46:05 <elliott> otherwise people would conflate your thing with something worse.
18:46:34 <Bike> something far more worse
18:47:23 <Bike> Turks and Caicos Islands huh
18:48:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cat%27s_Eye.jpg accurate
18:49:19 <fizzie> Is that what cpressey's place of business looks like?
18:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, anthracite is what's added in your Dwarf Fortress mod, right?
18:51:12 <cpressey> oh, that. yes, when i'm not drawing furry fanart, i spend my days chasing these three mysterious art thieves. despite all my efforts i have no clue who they might be. well, i think i'll go for a coffee
18:53:41 <Bike> i on't see cpressey on fur affinity. this is bullshit
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18:54:37 <boily> Bike: maybe on vclart?
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18:56:29 <Bike> http://us.vclart.net/vcl/cgi-bin/search.cgi?query=cpressey&page=1 well you heard the search.
18:56:46 <Bike> gotta find a furry artist and get them to draw cpressey. unfortunately the only furry artist i'm aware of is cpressey.
18:57:50 <cpressey> yeah no self-portraits, it's part of The Oath i'm afraid
18:58:16 <elliott> you could get a self-portrait from monqy
18:58:36 <elliott> get the AROS guy to draw cpressey
18:58:38 <Bike> is mnoqy a furry artist? that's right elliott. no
19:02:38 <boily> all kinds of oaths float around this channel. is there any cabal I should know about?
19:03:14 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:03:55 <cpressey> boily: i think, by definition of "cabal", no.
19:05:26 <cpressey> i don't remember nearly as much underlining and bolding and colours from last time i was here. either my client has improved or people are doing it more freely
19:06:34 <boily> I.. um... *may* have been pressing random keys. purely for research purposes, mind you.
19:06:47 <cpressey> also, no reply to email. they probably wrote me off as insane. or they file anything >1 page w/o a "tl;dr" into their "bastard why do they think i have the time to READ email" folder
19:06:47 <elliott> cpressey: colour/bold/etc. used to be disabled here!
19:07:06 <boily> here it only renders as reverse video, but metasepia reports: «\STX\ETX\GS\SI\DC2\USmeh. oh well.»
19:07:07 <elliott> now we have things like this
19:07:08 <HackEgo> cpressey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:08:12 <elliott> fungot is an esoteric language deployment
19:08:12 <fungot> elliott: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
19:08:20 <fungot> Bike: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
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19:09:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:13:16 <cpressey> oerjan, do you know anything about this higher-order-primitive-recursive-functions-are-more-better-than-first-order-primitive-recursive-functions-but-they're-still-primitive-recursive business?
19:14:18 <oerjan> hm i'm losing you at the but part
19:15:01 <oerjan> except maybe they're still _total_
19:15:51 <oerjan> the thing is, you can easily write ackermann as a "primitive recursive" curried function
19:16:02 <cpressey> they're definitely total. they're "still defined primitive recursively"
19:16:26 <elliott> you just need scare quotes around "primitive recursive"
19:17:06 <cpressey> well, it kind of seems like there are two (closely related) meanings for "primitive recursive"
19:17:06 <cpressey> one, how you define a function; two, FO functions defined that way
19:17:41 <cpressey> math does need more scare quotes though, so ima go with that
19:18:20 <Bike> «««primitive» «recursive»» «function»»
19:18:45 <cpressey> i [tried to] read a book on higher-order category theory a few months ago, there was much handwaving, much admitting of handwaving too; it was highly enjoyable
19:19:13 <oerjan> you enjoyed it at a higher order?
19:20:03 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure he matched correctly.
19:20:13 <elliott> i should get around to properly reading a book on (non-higher) category theory
19:20:28 <Bike> lower category theory.
19:20:52 <Bike> vernacular category theory
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19:22:32 <cpressey> oerjan: yes! i remember now, "Higher Operads, Higher Categories"
19:23:13 <oerjan> category theory in the sewers: it's all like going through pipes
19:23:49 <cpressey> there has got to be something esolang-worthy in the world of operads, btw. READ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associahedron
19:24:39 <cpressey> i tooked your expr and turned it into a solid
19:25:02 <cpressey> and that's about as far as my mind can process it
19:28:00 <oerjan> <cpressey> elliott: yes, everything in Canada is named after something in either England or France <-- no, some are named after somethings in belgium hth
19:29:08 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo
19:29:34 <coppro> also some things are named after native words
19:29:37 <oerjan> i've been there. one of the three, anyway.
19:31:31 <boily> Montréal is a nice city. it is strangely warm today.
19:31:35 <metasepia> CYUL 271904Z 25012G19KT 15SM SKC 19/02 A3010 RMK WSHFT 1857 SC TR SLP193 DENSITY ALT 400FT
19:32:34 <Bike> the 15SM is beautiful today
19:32:41 <oerjan> there are also montréals in france hth
19:33:03 <cpressey> "composition [of the ω-category ChCx]: more or less as expected, but some choices are involved. For instance, if you try to write down the composite of two chain homotopies then you will find that there are two equally reasonable ways of doing it: one ‘left-handed’, one ‘right-handed’. This is something like choosing the parametrization when deciding how to compose two loops in a space (usual choice: do everything at double speed). Somehow the
19:33:19 <metasepia> CYKF 271900Z AUTO VRB02KT 9SM CLR 20/01 A3019 RMK SLP225 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
19:33:48 <boily> coppro: how much do you weight?
19:35:31 <boily> Bike: the SKC is more important. we just spent a very humid weekend, and my shoe decided that it would be a good occasion to sponge in water.
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19:44:31 <cpressey> oerjan: there are other good ones in there but i'm having a hard time finding them. my problem with category theory is that whenever i read the word "pullback" i can feel a part of my brain browning out
19:45:12 <oerjan> you need to get your brain to push out instead hth
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19:45:23 <elliott> oerjan was saying it got cut off at "Somehow the"
19:45:48 <cpressey> "Somehow the fact that there is no canonical choice means that the resulting ω-category is bound to be weak. In a reasonable world there ought to be a weak ω-functor Chains : Top -> ChCx."
19:46:19 <oerjan> we all know we aren't living in a reasonable world
19:46:27 <elliott> i like it when mathematics does unreasonable things
19:46:37 <cpressey> that could be why the section ends right after that sentence
19:47:56 <Bike> "oh, this is too silly. better just stop writing this here, math is silly"
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19:49:21 <cpressey> a category with a single object is a monoid. that much is easy. what i strongly suspect, but have not yet seen real evidence for, is that that's where the word "monoid" comes from.
19:49:55 <cpressey> cuz, you know, ... one. thing.
19:50:03 <elliott> cpressey: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/156952/why-the-terminology-monoid
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19:50:20 -!- olsner has joined.
19:50:28 <Bike> i'm... pretty sure monoids predate category theory?
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19:50:55 <Bike> anyway: http://egtheory.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/curse-of-computing/ does this reek of oldman-itis to anybody
19:51:39 <oerjan> wp's monoid article has a 1951 reference fwiw
19:51:49 <elliott> isn't CT technically from the 40s
19:52:19 <Bike> predate anybody caring about category theory*
19:52:55 <Bike> ugh, i'm going to be wondering about the damned etymology now, though
19:54:09 <Bike> mathematicians are so bad at tracking historical development sometimes
19:56:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:57:08 <oerjan> <cpressey> also, no reply to email. they probably wrote me off as insane. or they file anything >1 page w/o a "tl;dr" into their "bastard why do they think i have the time to READ email" folder <-- you shouldn't have titled it GREAT INTERVIEW OFFER hth
19:58:21 <Taneb> Just figured out why I was constantly using 4 times 100% CPU
19:58:51 <Taneb> I had those SETI@Home things going
19:58:54 <Taneb> And had forgotten them
20:00:18 <kmc> think of all the bitcoins you could have mined instead
20:00:24 <Taneb> Stop asking me these questions!
20:00:31 <oerjan> http://math.stackexchange.com/a/167900 seems somewhat believable
20:00:37 <Bike> we could establish and ask taneb@home
20:00:37 <Taneb> kmc, about 0.00001 if I was really lucky, right?
20:00:56 <kmc> well people use mining pools to even out the luck factor
20:01:05 <kmc> but yeah, you're not going to get a worthwhile amount with CPUs
20:01:49 <Taneb> Anyway, hopefully this also solves the mystery of "why does Minecraft keep crashing"
20:02:11 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:04:12 <Bike> are there people who make a good amount of bitcoins without having mining capability?
20:04:17 <kmc> right now the reward for mining a block is about $6,400
20:04:26 <kmc> and this is a very rare event
20:04:39 <kmc> i mean your odds of being the one to win this lottery are very low
20:04:53 <elliott> Bike: sure, you can just put $10k in with an exchange
20:04:58 <kmc> most people would rather have a steady stream of money instead of a bunch of lottery tickets, hence mining pools
20:05:02 <kmc> Bike: i don't understand the question
20:05:13 <Bike> i mean by like, selling things to miners
20:05:19 <Bike> things that aren't currency
20:05:28 <kmc> by selling drugs to people who want to buy drugs...
20:05:50 <kmc> or selling web hosting services to spammers
20:05:59 <kmc> lots of businesses accept bitcoin now
20:06:05 <kmc> the sushi restaurant I ate at yesterday accepts bitcoin
20:06:19 <kmc> I assume they convert it back to USD ASAP, and so don't have large holdings
20:06:50 <kmc> MtGox has huge holdings of bitcoins because people leave their coins in their MtGox account
20:07:10 <Bike> does mtgox act as like, a bank? you know, offering loans and stuff
20:07:16 <kmc> i don't think they offer loans
20:07:27 <kmc> also I don't know how big their holdings are actually
20:07:40 <elliott> kind of hard to do loans with bitcoin i think
20:07:41 <kmc> perhaps people don't leave their money in MtGox anymore for fear of it being haxed
20:07:46 <kmc> but probably not, because people are stupid
20:07:46 <elliott> without the ability to beat people up
20:08:06 <kmc> yeah and without the ability to distribute reputation information
20:08:25 <Bike> loans are pretty important to an economy...
20:08:26 <Sgeo> I still wish that the proof-of-work was useful ala Folding@Home
20:08:44 <kmc> i mean presumably a real bank that does all the usual meatspace verification could choose to give you btc instead of whatever other currency for your loan
20:08:51 <kmc> but you can't just like make a website that gives loans to anyone
20:08:57 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah
20:09:10 <Bike> did that proof-of-work anti-spam thing ever catch on
20:09:38 <Bike> considering that most of the nonspam email i receive is automated i guess it wouldn't help me anyway
20:09:47 <kmc> Bike: nah it still helps
20:09:59 <kmc> spammers send a vastly larger quantity of mail
20:10:13 <Bike> larger than the automated services?
20:10:20 <kmc> if a business wants to send you automated mail, they should be willing to pay the proof of work cost
20:10:36 <kmc> the real problem is that spammers have a very low cost of compute power because it's all stolen
20:11:10 -!- elieser224 has joined.
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20:11:55 <kmc> https://www.trustwave.com/support/labs/spam_statistics.asp says that spam is 75% of total inbound email
20:12:41 <kmc> so all the legit automated services in the world combined have less than 1/3 as much volume
20:12:56 <kmc> and presumably you're on a greater fraction of spam lists than fraction of legit automated services
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20:13:41 <kmc> maybe in order to have loans, you need a system where creating a new 'identity' is expensive
20:13:48 <kmc> unlike btc where it's very cheap
20:15:01 -!- FreeFull has joined.
20:15:03 <kmc> the fee for creating new identities can go toward paying the creditors of defaulted loans elsewhere in the system
20:15:45 <kmc> not sure this makes any sense though
20:15:57 <kmc> because if you have the money for the fee you wouldn't need to enter the loan system in the first place
20:16:13 <Bike> seems like it'd be hard to coordinate anyway.
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20:17:41 <kmc> and if we're taking about a purely computational expense to create new identities, then people will still 'mine' those and take loans and default on them, as a cheaper way of mining BTC
20:17:55 <kmc> or else if they are more expensive than the BTC you can borrow with them, there's no point
20:18:14 <Bike> so you need something that costs more than currency that costs less than currency
20:21:00 <kmc> in the real world it might be cheaper to start a new life with a new identity rather than pay off your debts
20:21:11 <Bike> even if you had identities that worked, how would you enforce loans? without a government what'd be the penalty, banks refusing to loan you money?
20:21:14 <kmc> but people don't because a) it's illegal, b) they have roots and a life
20:21:34 <kmc> yeah, rarely
20:21:51 <kmc> rare compared to the number of people in crippling debt
20:21:53 <Bike> the point being that the opportunity cost of faking your death and moving is usually pretty high
20:21:59 <kmc> I think actually killing yourself to get out is much more common than faking your death
20:22:24 <kmc> also c) there's a legal bankruptcy system
20:22:29 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes plz
20:22:32 <Bike> i'm wondering how a working BTC economy could actually function
20:22:34 <Bike> and yeah go for it
20:22:49 <Bike> unfortunately the primary source for this is probably ancap economics and, wow, like hell am i reading that
20:23:02 <kmc> well you can have collateralized loans
20:23:03 <kmc> pawn shop style
20:23:11 <kmc> but what collateral assets can be transferred electronically
20:23:23 <kmc> WoW accounts
20:23:40 <kmc> i pawned my level 60 paladin to buy crack with bitcoins
20:23:42 <Bike> "sure, i'll give you a loan, but imma need your private key for a bit"
20:24:35 <kmc> this idea of pawning your identity for quick cash is getting into heavy cyberpunk dystopia territory, which means it will probably happen in about 15 years
20:25:01 <kmc> Bike: do you know about the secondary market in pawn tickets
20:25:19 <Bike> i've never actually used a pawn shop
20:25:19 <kmc> i've seen this advertised on signs in da ghetto
20:25:31 <Bike> is a pawn ticket like, the thing you get from the pawn shop to prove that the collateral is yours
20:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f3qxd/mozilla_is_one_of_the_most_important_opensource/ (fuck it, i can't find anything better and i'm bored already)
20:25:52 <Bike> so you like... why would you sell that
20:25:53 <kmc> you deposit an item and get cash and a ticket
20:25:58 <kmc> if you come back with the cash, you get the item back
20:25:59 <Bike> why would you buy that, rather
20:26:25 <kmc> if the owner of the pawn ticket doesn't have the capital to get the item back, but you do
20:26:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: hm, i see that it's better for you to choose when to post a meanwhie (because this is boring)
20:26:43 <kmc> then you can get the item and sell it outright, back to the pawn shop for more money than the value of the loan you just repaid
20:26:46 <Bike> kmc: oh, so it's still a net loss for the seller
20:26:55 <kmc> for the pawner you mean?
20:27:04 <Bike> the seller of the pawn ticket.
20:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (i actually only think to check when someone mentions bitcoin, my mistake here was committing before i'd found anything)
20:27:29 <Bike> that's depressing but sensible
20:27:40 <kmc> presumably for this secondary market to exist, the cash the pawner gets from the loan + selling the ticket is less than they would get for selling the item outright
20:27:52 <kmc> but they get it in two pieces
20:27:57 <Bike> either that or irrational actors
20:28:08 <kmc> if you're going to fail to repay that loan, you might as well sell the ticket instead of throwing it out
20:29:24 <cpressey> Bike: re your link: yeah it... smells something like that
20:29:39 <Bike> yay somebody actually responded
20:29:43 <kmc> hey i'm not irrational, i act to maximize a utility function and that utility function is MORE CRACK NOW
20:30:14 <Bike> i can see their point but on the other hand the four color theorem is a hell of an achievement and also it makes work for computer scientists
20:30:24 <cpressey> did weak goldbach's conjecture recently get proved or something?
20:30:25 <kmc> for a long time EFF didn't accept bitcoin because they didn't want to endorse it as safe or a good idea
20:30:39 <kmc> but they do now
20:30:43 <Bike> i still haven't read A=B because i'm incompetent but they rationalized empirical proofs for simple algebraic identities (like, it works for n=1,2,3,4, it must be true)
20:30:46 <Bike> it's hilarious/awesome
20:30:47 <kmc> they do accept, they don't endorse I mean
20:31:03 <cpressey> reading comprehension fail on my part, yes it did
20:31:27 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/GirlsGoneBitcoin nsfw, also wtf
20:31:30 <Bike> i'm still waiting to hear back about the supposedly incomprehensible abc conjecture proof, sounds fun
20:31:58 <elliott> Bike: ted nelson says the guy who did that proof made bitcoin [TOPIC SEGUE MESSAGE]
20:31:59 <kmc> "Basically, post your naughty bits and get tipped in a digital currency."
20:32:13 <Bike> kmc: this isn't even hot
20:32:21 <Vorpal> So there is native Portal for Linux now, just a beta, but still. This might be old news, I don't open Steam very often
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20:32:35 <Bike> elliott: "he's japanese and good at math. basically musta been him"
20:33:13 <elliott> i like the tacit assumption that he's japanese based on a name being acknowledged as a pseudonym
20:33:41 <Bike> "japanese people have japanese pseudonyms. stands to reason"
20:34:23 <Bike> btw is [TOPIC SEGUE MESSAGE] an astral plane unicode character, because it should be
20:35:10 <kmc> "Welcome to leChateau deCrypto a cooperative of women dedicated to providing a safe and exploratory atmosphere for bitcoins, sex positivism, cryptography, and of course rock'n'roll."
20:35:18 <Bike> "inter-universal Teichmüller theory" i can't math
20:35:37 <Bike> whatever, the papers look to be in english. time to die
20:35:56 <Vorpal> Strange thing is that I own portal on steam yet it is not listed in the account history. Not sure how that works. I have no idea how I got it, but I had it for a while.
20:36:20 <Bike> oh my god every other word is italicized help
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20:37:54 <fizzie> For some reason Steam's "grant access to this browser" confirmation emails always take quite a while to arrive.
20:38:12 <Bike> "Unlike many mathematical papers, which are devoted to verifying properties of mathematical objects that are either well-known or easily constructed from well-known mathematical objects, in the present series of papers, most of our efforts will be devoted to constructing new mathematical objects."
20:38:40 <Bike> so there's 450 pages here of constructing these things before he shows what you do with them. awesome
20:38:44 <ais523> fizzie: they may be being graylisted
20:39:41 <Taneb> Bike, just got an image of a person in a musty office wearing a brown suit playing with Lego
20:40:19 <Bike> where do they even sell those suits? nobody knows. they just grow out of their shoulders
20:40:19 <oklopol> Bike: are you talking about abc
20:40:26 <Sgeo> Are Bejeweled and Alchemy Java applet games or Flash games?
20:40:38 <Bike> oklopol: yeah i'm looking at mochizuki's papers because lol
20:40:43 <kmc> java applet games? what is this, 1996?
20:40:58 <Sgeo> kmc, the game I wanted to play could have been made around then, sure
20:41:00 <Bike> it's called an applet because it's a smaller apple
20:41:30 <Sgeo> http://www.popcap.com/games/alchemy/online
20:41:49 <Bike> considering i'm not even familiar with elliptic curves this is all kinds of pointless, but hey #yolo
20:41:58 <elliott> shouldn't finding this out for yourself be easy
20:42:31 <kmc> i went to a Microsoft Store in a mall today and it looked very suspiciously exactly like an Apple store
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20:42:38 <Bike> maybe i should read something i'm more familiar with, like ethnogenesis in thailand
20:42:49 <Taneb> kmc, you know where I went today?
20:42:55 <Taneb> PRETTY MUCH NOWHERE
20:45:57 <Vorpal> Today? I went to a great number of places.
20:46:20 <Vorpal> Like one meter to the left of here. Quite an interesting place that was.
20:46:26 <fizzie> ais523: There are not really any servers on the trip here that would graylist them, unless it's happening on Valve's side.
20:46:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, they always arrive instantly to my gmail for me
20:48:37 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XQJc -- if the timestamps are accurate, there's a three-minute delay between the first SMTP server at Valve getting it, and my server getting it. Dunno why.
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20:56:31 <zzo38> Is there a version of APL for hardware programming?
20:56:34 <cpressey> Bike: i still haven't fully read that article but: if you ask me: if you complain in the same breath about 4CMT and "numerical results" up to 10 grillion you have probably missed a step in your own "proof" about how computers are stupid
20:56:57 <Bike> what do you mean?
20:57:40 <cpressey> the computer proof of the 4CMT is perfectly valid, if ugly.
20:57:52 <Bike> oh,, the point isn't validity
20:58:07 <Bike> just that proofs like that don't encourage as much math
20:58:34 <Taneb> Someone said I think of the Four Colour Theorem, that:
20:58:38 <cpressey> "encouraging math" whatever that means is not my idea of the purpose of a proof
20:58:48 <Bike> what's your idea?
20:58:49 <Taneb> "I guess this proof mostly proves that the problem wasn't that interesting"
20:58:59 <elliott> there's a coq proof of the four-colour theorem
20:59:43 <cpressey> Bike: i don't know, but it's not "encouraging math"
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21:00:21 <cpressey> all ugly proofs encourage searches for less ugly proofs, mathematicians are just *like* that
21:01:07 <cpressey> and a proof can build on another proof no matter how ugly the other proof is
21:04:49 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
21:04:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the comments on empiricism are essentially misguided
21:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean only a handful of people have ever read the full proof of fermat's last theorem; you're essentially relying on the empirical observation that they know what they're doing
21:07:12 <coppro> boily: why do you care how much I weight?
21:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> any simple, interesting problem that's still unsolved is probably going to have a hideous proof anyway
21:07:53 <Bike> that's an interesting 'probably'
21:09:00 <Bike> i think the post covers your problem though, "But this is not unique to computer assisted proofs, most modern mathematical proofs are so extensive that many of them are not surveyable from first principles"
21:09:46 <elliott> computer assisted proofs are obviously more trustable than large human-written proofs
21:09:56 <elliott> given proper publishing of the source code etc.
21:10:10 <elliott> even if they don't use a proof assistant
21:10:19 <elliott> anyone who thinks otherwise is... well, just crazy
21:10:25 <Bike> the point really isn't validity (thankfully)
21:10:30 <Bike> (because, yeah)
21:11:32 <elliott> well i admit i didn't really read context past Phantom_Hoover's line because i am too cool
21:11:49 <Bike> you are pretty cool, admittedly
21:11:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nt).
21:12:24 <Taneb> I once played a cool guy in a play
21:14:28 <boily> coppro: statistics.
21:19:49 <boily> coppro: you are being very elliotty, here.
21:24:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (the joke is that elliott is made of toothpicks and tissue paper)
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21:43:57 <cpressey> how can any value ever be less than an epsilon AHHHHH BRAIN BREAKING
21:45:09 <Taneb> ...it could be zero or negative?
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21:46:17 <Bike> it's been a while since i cared about surreals but isn't there epsilon² and such there
21:46:48 <cpressey> also my brain breaks on the slightest confusingish thing now that i'm OLD so don't put a lot of weight on that part
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21:47:10 <elliott> haven't you always been old
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21:47:35 <Taneb> elliott, you may be thinking of oerjan
21:47:49 <Taneb> But indeed, Befunge is about two years older than you, elliott
21:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> it's been a while since i cared about surreals but isn't there epsilon and such there
21:49:46 <Bike> yeah but it's distinct or something
21:54:22 <cpressey> elliott: i assume you were trying to break my brain
21:55:03 <oklopol> aren't hyperreals big enough?
21:55:04 <cpressey> oh! oh! got an email response back
21:55:18 <elliott> cpressey: oh. i'm not that clever
21:55:38 <cpressey> "A chat on #esoteric works for me."
21:55:58 <elliott> you've really fucked up now cpressey!!
21:56:31 <elliott> ok so the important question is what to set the topic to
21:56:40 <elliott> how about "As seen in the Wall Street Journal!"
21:56:46 -!- rapido has joined.
21:57:21 <Taneb> elliott, how about something actually to do with esolangs for a change
21:57:35 <elliott> Taneb: hahahahahahahahahaha
21:58:41 <elliott> cpressey: keep me updated re: when it is happening, I would like to make arrangements to be awake at the time
21:59:07 <shachaf> Please make arrangements for me to be asleep when it is happening.
21:59:19 <Sgeo> I will probably be at work :(
21:59:37 <cpressey> scheduling this predictably is going to be difficult but i'll let you know
21:59:44 <Bike> so the wsj guy is actually coming here?
22:00:42 <elliott> i have no idea how i am going to stop myself just laughing and trolling through the whole thing. help
22:00:47 <cpressey> Bike: yes, unless i... tell him not to or something
22:00:56 <elliott> i think i have a severe ailment that physically prevents me from taking this whole thing seriously
22:01:03 <mnoqy> im 10000% excited for this
22:01:08 <Taneb> elliott, we need someone sensible as an op
22:01:20 <Taneb> Someone Norwegian.
22:01:26 <Taneb> Someone... called oerjan
22:01:31 <elliott> if i was an op i think i might actually be able to not mess it up
22:01:34 <elliott> too much dang responsibility
22:01:55 <shachaf> have you *seen* what elliott does when you op him.....
22:02:09 <Taneb> Remember when I was op for a bit?
22:02:19 <shachaf> he'd probably voice the person
22:02:20 <Taneb> `quote never comes back
22:02:23 <HackEgo> 990) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:02:30 <shachaf> Hey, even I was an op in here once!
22:02:49 <mnoqy> my experience with shachaf as an op is he deops himself and asks a lot to be an op again
22:02:51 <shachaf> (+oed is how you learn English.)
22:02:56 <Bike> gregor isn't even voiced right now
22:02:58 <cpressey> i have trouble imagining how op powers would interact with this
22:03:02 <elliott> cpressey: i recommend asking zzo when he's available
22:03:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: uh, well deopped me.
22:03:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:04:54 <Sgeo> Hmm. How does /u/WarPhalange still have positive comment karma
22:05:11 <shachaf> All Reddit users have positive comment karma.
22:05:45 <mnoqy> Sgeo: are we supposed to know who that is
22:05:58 <shachaf> The reason: You can accumulate a lot of positive karma easily with one comment, but it takes many comments to accumulate a lot of negative karma.
22:06:03 <cpressey> elliott: he says he'll be looking for some sort of "story" or "hook" for the piece. does this help your "ailment". (it doesn't help mine)
22:06:21 <Sgeo> mnoqy, guy who faked having cancer on Reddit, and is still using that account
22:06:30 <Sgeo> Almost always gets downvoted when seen
22:06:39 <elliott> cpressey: is your ailment needing a drink
22:06:40 <cpressey> oh, and his days are tues, weds, thurs this week.
22:07:04 <mnoqy> cpressey: have you seen http://esolangs.org/wiki/From_INTERCAL_to_LOLCODE:_The_Esoteric_Programming_Story
22:07:13 <cpressey> actually i think my ailment is pretty similar to yours. drink is just an ineffective treatment for it
22:07:33 <cpressey> mnoqy: briefly. then i practiced a lot of thought-stopping
22:07:41 <elliott> cpressey: i feel a bit sorry for this guy
22:07:57 <elliott> have you told him he's not going to get a story out of this
22:08:03 <ais523> you know that I'm going to take the whole thing very seriously and try to get everyone to behave?
22:08:18 <mnoqy> elliott: um hes going to get The Esoteric Programming Story
22:08:26 <elliott> ais523: if you kick me for being stupid while it is going on i will leave forever
22:08:35 <cpressey> what possible (oh hi ais523 what's this Mouse Friendship thing) story is there except "i went on irc and i forgot how insane those people are"
22:08:58 <ais523> cpressey: I either don't know what the Mouse Friendship thing is, or I've foroggetn I know it
22:09:02 <cpressey> ok, i forgot how insane the banter of those people is
22:09:30 <elliott> cpressey: hey what fantastic pranks can i do to the wiki in relation to this
22:09:42 <elliott> maybe they've already used the wiki.... we'r famouse
22:09:44 <ais523> you could CSS it to be upside-down
22:09:52 <Sgeo> lolcode.com is dad
22:09:56 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
22:10:02 <elliott> cpressey: did you know the CBS show "Elementary" used Malbolge as a plot device? now THERE'S a hook for the story
22:10:09 <Bike> lolcode.com is dead and we have killeed it
22:10:12 <elliott> in fact that may even be the reason the WSJ wants to write about esolangs in the first place
22:10:57 <cpressey> elliott: why is this fact not recorded on its wiki page?
22:10:59 <ais523> I wonder what made them contact cpressey in particular, though
22:11:12 <elliott> cpressey: i think i was going to record it after someone came in here to mention it but then i forgot
22:11:13 <Bike> cpressey is the true prophet of the esolangology movement
22:11:40 <elliott> hm I should come up with fun lies in case I get asked any wiki-related questions
22:12:11 <Bike> can i like preemptorily apologize to the reporter for the blankness he's going to go through
22:12:14 <cpressey> elliott: ok are you just making stuff up or what the hell are you talking about
22:12:27 <Bike> the elementary thing is true
22:12:27 <elliott> ais523: also I hope you realise that when the story is about "crazy computer people making stupid languages", everyone taking it seriously will make it a /worse/ story
22:12:35 <elliott> cpressey: like multiple people came in here because of it
22:12:49 <elliott> and then my googling found a highly reliable citation in the form of a screencap on tumblr
22:12:53 <ais523> elliott: I'm not in favour of everyone taking it seriously
22:13:17 <ais523> I'm in favour of exactly one person taking it deathly seriously, in a way that's incongruous with the general atmosphere of the rest of the channel
22:13:44 <elliott> oh I really hope someone asks me to do a favour for them or something in the next few days
22:13:45 <Sgeo> help i might take it semi-seriously if im here wat do
22:13:53 <elliott> so I can say "sorry, I have to prepare for being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal"
22:14:09 <Bike> Sgeo: just be yourself. that's all we need
22:14:11 <shachaf> I thought cpressey was the one being interviewed.
22:14:13 <cpressey> ais523: I don't know (re Mouse Friendship) it was some surreal exchange with Taneb that I didn't understand, and now I'm apparently your arch-nemesis or something
22:14:27 <elliott> cpressey will be too drunk, we will have to fill in for him.
22:14:38 <elliott> also, I get the feeling the journalist is probably reading the logs right now.
22:14:58 <Bike> it'll probably be boring
22:15:06 <Bike> but talking about it not being boring is funny
22:15:22 <mnoqy> does mouse friendship have anything to do with friendship mouse
22:15:22 <cpressey> i kind of get the feeling he's not. just a vague feeling, based on how he's approaching this
22:15:43 <cpressey> as in, my mind transposes things on me all the time
22:15:43 <HackEgo> 489) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
22:16:14 <ais523> we should design an esolang in the channel, in front of them
22:16:17 <elliott> I hope lament comes back for the occasion
22:16:22 <ais523> we need more things along the lines of Dupdog or Radixal!!!!
22:16:28 <elliott> and unbans a bunch of people and kicks everyone it'd be glorious
22:16:39 <Bike> "ok listen, what if it's like brainfuck, but based on wsj quotes"
22:16:45 <ais523> proper absurdity requires collective inputs
22:16:55 <ais523> hey, can we kick people for suggesting BF derivatives?
22:17:17 <elliott> Bike: can you go on a rant about capitalism/wall street while the guy's there. just suggesting possible roles here
22:17:37 <Bike> wait am i "the dumb anticapitalist guy"
22:17:38 <mnoqy> i hope im around for this it sounds thrilling
22:17:40 <Bike> i guess i'm ok with that
22:17:47 <elliott> Bike: well, we're all dumb
22:17:53 <Bike> well yeah but the other part.
22:17:59 <elliott> Bike: you could go on about bitcoin simultaneously
22:18:19 <shachaf> copumpkin can go on about bitcoin, surely.
22:18:22 <cpressey> hm... he mentions Piet and Ook! as "playful" languages which might be more... reader-friendly... to focus on.
22:18:25 <elliott> bitcoin communism: an idea whose time has come
22:18:39 <elliott> cpressey: maybe we can get david morgan-mar
22:18:59 <elliott> maybe we can get urban muller!!! an all-star cast
22:19:24 <Bike> http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/16/wsj_fiscal_cliff_infographic/1358357370309.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg "you know what would have made this more accurate, fascist propagandist scum? if you wrote their assets in bitcoin. fuck the gold standard"
22:20:50 <kmc> pictures of sad rich people dot tumblr dot com
22:21:07 <elliott> cpressey: god, I hope I'm not mentioned by name in whatever article comes out of this
22:21:21 <Bike> it'll be all over hexham
22:22:36 <ais523> elliott: change your realname to something plausible but incorrect
22:22:43 <ais523> like, invent a surname
22:22:46 <ais523> and put it after "elliott"
22:22:54 <elliott> my realname doesn't have my real name
22:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if they get the number of ls and ts wrong
22:23:03 <ais523> but that might inspire people to look elsewhere
22:23:32 <ais523> elliott: actually, change back to alise
22:23:53 <elliott> i think i'll just leave my realname
22:24:04 <elliott> i guess it's actually hard to tell that my wiki account is me
22:24:10 <elliott> unless you know my real name already
22:24:14 <elliott> since they just share a first letter
22:25:32 <shachaf> Bike: that's a good infographic
22:26:12 <shachaf> even the people whose taxes aren't being increased are sad
22:26:21 <shachaf> conclusion: money makes you sad
22:26:27 <ais523> neat, I just searched "elliott" on the wiki and there were no results
22:26:44 <Bike> truly it's best to be a simple, down to earth retired married couple, making $180k
22:27:16 <cpressey> ok, the biggest "problem" i see is that he's not going to find an angle. unless there's some exciting development or discord amongst esolang right now that i haven't seen.
22:27:46 <kmc> money makes people sad because they spend it on dumb things
22:27:47 <cpressey> i am not suggesting we concoct an angle. no, no, no. no.
22:28:04 <Bike> kmc: e.g. anything but crack
22:28:15 <shachaf> Bike: hey, that's not dumb
22:28:51 <shachaf> there are lots of things you could spend money on
22:28:56 <ais523> we should hold a BF Joust tournament
22:29:50 <quintopia> how about a befunge-joust tourney1
22:30:00 <cpressey> ais523: eh, i guess you maybe haven't heard, i'm in King-Arthur-la-la-land right now (more commonly known as Cornwall)
22:30:01 <elliott> cpressey: i think the biggest problem is that esolangs aren't news, aren't interesting to almost anyone, cannot be explained to most people, and are boring.
22:30:13 <quintopia> or a killer robot war machine joust tourney
22:30:16 <ais523> so I'm nearer to you than the hexhamers are
22:30:24 <quintopia> everyone give me your addresses, the tourney starts now
22:30:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I am wtf in Cornwall wtf.
22:30:57 <cpressey> but no, I haven't met Bike, but i did not get the impression that Bike was in Cornwall.
22:31:05 <elliott> maybe i should go to cornwall and terrorise everyone (incl. cpressey)
22:31:15 <elliott> wait is Bike actually in cornwall
22:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a cousin who works in one of the hospitals there, maybe you could injure yourself and meet him
22:31:18 <elliott> i thought he was in washington
22:31:25 <kmc> is it cornish history week already
22:31:31 <cpressey> shachaf: you're getting into the semantics of "met" there
22:31:34 <shachaf> Bike: how are the monuments
22:31:45 <kmc> shachaf: monumental
22:32:39 <elliott> i knew a dude from cornwall once
22:32:43 <elliott> he may be a saxophone player now
22:33:55 <shachaf> Bike: i heard Luxembourg has the bomb is that true
22:36:08 <kmc> luxembourg is da bomb
22:37:39 <cpressey> elliott: ok, so he comes in here, asks a bunch of reportery questions, and, given what he has to work with... we let nature take its course? probably there will be no publishable result.
22:37:59 <cpressey> i don't think i could get dmm or urban in here, but i could probably get bem or jeffry
22:38:13 <elliott> wonder if anyone will get /msg'd
22:38:35 <elliott> cpressey: this is the part where i admit i don't know who bem is
22:39:14 <shachaf> i don't know who any of those people are do i win
22:39:23 <cpressey> ah, sorry, I meant Ben Olmstead
22:39:50 <cpressey> Malbolge, for those of you not keeping score at home
22:41:14 <elliott> ah ok, I just didn't recognise "bem"
22:45:24 <Sgeo> I was in the WSJ once
22:45:27 <Sgeo> Not by name though :(
22:46:06 <Sgeo> http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB111196673261990485-w6Ozd12gsakyASeZZ55yKUJVXAk_20050427,00.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
22:46:10 <Sgeo> I'm the 'his friend'
22:46:34 <Sgeo> And then Wikicities turned Wikia turned evil.
22:47:13 <shachaf> wow you made wikia? how could you : (
22:47:16 <Bike> has anyone ever heard the phrase "open-access software" used to describe you know what
22:47:50 <Sgeo> shachaf, no, but I started several wikis on Wikia, including what was once the most popular one there
22:48:02 <Sgeo> Well, not sure if 'most popular', but certainly well known
22:48:04 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: free software and all
22:48:28 <Bike> an anthropologist in this book
22:48:38 <Bike> complete with Old White Guy Scare Quotes
22:49:11 <Sgeo> anthropologistologists?
22:50:55 <Bike> #esoteric can't even explain sgeo.
22:52:08 <Bike> i don't think even god knows that
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, i'm not sure i even want to dwell on that question
22:53:19 <zzo38> Some things are very difficult to explain.
22:53:26 <zzo38> That is just how it is.
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22:56:26 <Bike> oh is this that thing about ending sentences with prepositions
22:56:30 <Bike> what's even the point of that
22:57:11 <Bike> some latin wankery, you mean?
22:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the result of the victorians having trouble getting their heads around the whole latin /= english thing
23:02:29 <zzo38> Now I made the Deadfish Z-machine story file even shorter; now it is only 128 bytes long (i.e. 64 bytes other than the header).
23:03:00 <shachaf> a fine note on which to retire on
23:03:23 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Can there be much of a story in 128 bytes?
23:03:51 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No, but a Z-machine program file is commonly called a "story file", even though it isn't a story.
23:04:19 <Lumpio-> But aren't Z-machine programs usually text adventure games
23:04:23 <Lumpio-> You can't fit a lot of text in that.
23:04:33 <Lumpio-> I'm guessing it's not even a game.
23:04:42 <zzo38> Yes, they usually are, but not always. Yes, in this case it is not even a game.
23:05:38 -!- sprocklem has joined.
23:11:58 <zzo38> I have used a few tricks to shorten it so that it will fit in 128 bytes. Can you shorten it even more?
23:17:02 <Lumpio-> People who know what the "Deadfish Z-machine story file" is, please raise your hand
23:18:19 <zzo38> This is the assembly codes of it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Frolg Now you can know what it is, and raise your hand too, especially if you put the keyboard on top of the monitor instead of below.
23:20:09 -!- comex has changed nick to Iciloo.
23:20:11 <Lumpio-> Does that even count as a programming language
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23:21:07 <Lumpio-> It's kind of boring in that it's essentially just a really crappy encoding for a series of numbers.
23:22:19 <zzo38> Yes, I think that is all that it is; nevertheless, they were trying to make a programming language, and now it is retarded, and there are many implementations of it anyways, just as much that there are many implementation of Truth-machine and 99 bottles of beer.
23:22:21 <Lumpio-> If that's a programming language, then the output of gzip is
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23:23:53 <zzo38> I think you are correct.
23:24:58 <Sgeo> Hmm there's a thing called Glulx
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23:26:32 <zzo38> Yes, Glulx is another virtual machine for text adventure games, this time 32-bit machine. Deadfish could probably be made in Glulx too if you want to.
23:27:08 <Lumpio-> You should make a deadfish compiler that compiles it into a .txt file that can be executed with cat
23:27:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, do you prefer Z-machine or glulx?
23:27:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I prefer the Z-machine.
23:27:45 <Sgeo> Any particular reasons
23:28:06 <zzo38> One thing I think Z-machine is better designed in many ways.
23:29:07 <zzo38> (It isn't quite perfect, though; there are a few things I would have done slightly differently.)
23:31:23 <nooodl^> zzo38, do you know anything about how the free infocom dos versions of zork are implemented? the parser is very interesting
23:32:03 <nooodl^> it has a huge amount of synonyms but i dont know how to find a list of them
23:32:10 <zzo38> nooodl^: No, I don't know much about it.
23:32:20 <zzo38> To find the list you could try using a disassembler, I suppose.
23:32:45 <zzo38> You could also try looking at the source-codes for the MDL version.
23:33:35 <nooodl^> apparently theres like a billion versions of zork
23:34:47 <Sgeo> Can I play Zork legally for free?
23:34:50 <zzo38> I do have a SQL database containing the headers for all the Infocom games, including all of the versions of Zork, so you could at least see how many different versions, how much RAM they use, etc, even though I don't have all of the data of the files.
23:35:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, you can play the MDL Zork legally for free, at least. Other than that, I don't know.
23:35:49 <nooodl^> the infocom site offers legal free downloads for dos too
23:36:34 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have seen that when someone was trying to download the game; the ".DAT" file should be renamed and then loaded with any Z-machine interpreter.
23:37:30 <nooodl^> yeah its a z5 file in disguise iirc
23:38:06 <zzo38> You can tell what version by reading the first byte of the file; whatever it is, put 'z' and then that number.
23:39:37 <nooodl^> i should write a text adventure in haskell once
23:40:18 <zzo38> nooodl^: Yes, you could do once, either to compile into native code or make a Haskell library for representing and compiling Z-machine story files.
23:40:21 <copumpkin> if you had a domain called zzo38.ca, and you inverted the domain (say in a java package name), the inversion would spell ca.zzo38, where cazzo in italian means something vulgar
23:40:46 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, that isn't my domain name, so I am not having that problem.
23:41:03 <copumpkin> just wanted to point it out in case you wanted to get that domain and then make java packages
23:41:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you have the domain pumpkin.co
23:41:32 <zzo38> However I intend to neither get that domain name nor to make Java packages.
23:41:48 <shachaf> .co: the tld for categorical duals
23:42:08 <Lumpio-> It's the TLD for Colombia .__.
23:42:16 <Lumpio-> I wonder if it'd be possible to get a really short domain name
23:42:20 <Lumpio-> Without paying ridiculous amounts
23:42:26 <kmc> google translates it as "fuck", "cock", "shit", "fucking", or "dick"
23:42:34 <Lumpio-> It'll pretty much have to be a ccTLD because they're the only two character ones
23:42:46 <Lumpio-> More than I want to pay for my personal use
23:43:06 <nooodl^> has a cheapish four char domain name, thanks unicode.
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23:53:58 <Sgeo> I wish it was possible for me to build my own gaming laptop
23:55:17 <shachaf> Hmm, I could register .fi names.
23:56:00 <Lumpio-> I have a feeling .fi doesn't even allow names shorter than two anymore
23:56:12 <Lumpio-> I think there was a short time in the beginning of the interwebs when it was allowed so there are *some*
23:58:28 <Lumpio-> hm, actually you can get two character .fi domains
23:59:00 -!- comex has changed nick to PrincessKaDenza.
23:59:10 <Lumpio-> But I bet all two character acronyms are trademarked
23:59:24 <mnoqy> shachaf: shacha.fi?