00:00:01 <Koen___> actually I've had a recurring nightmare since I was little and it's never stopped (as opposed to the more classic nightmares involving monsters)
00:00:09 <Koen___> and there's an automaton in it, or something
00:00:20 <Koen___> and the universe always end up implosing and I CAN'T STOP IT
00:00:25 <ion> fiora: Cool article.
00:00:34 <hagb4rd> reproduction, metabolism and
00:00:39 <Koen___> and whenever I wake up after that recurring automaton nightmare I try to make sense out of it but I've never succeeded
00:01:03 <hagb4rd> dont remember the last conditions
00:01:27 <Bike> hagb4rd: oh, you mean the definition of real world life? nah that's a hilarious flamewar
00:01:31 <kmc> simultor metaphysics?
00:01:50 <Bike> kmc: the real world is running in a simulator
00:02:00 <Koen___> why would reproduction be necessary to define life?
00:02:07 <ion> It’s simulators all the way down.
00:02:10 <Bike> the hashlife idea happens to be applicable to basically any kind of physics where you have a speed of life, so
00:02:14 <Bike> speed of light*
00:02:28 <Fiora> hashlife is really cool and bike can explain it 100 times better than I can
00:02:52 <kmc> i vaguely understand it but would appreciate a good explanation
00:03:36 <hagb4rd> what is a virus? vira don' t have metabolism.. is virus not a life form? i asked myself recently
00:03:39 <Bike> ok, well, it's pretty easy. what you need is a space you want to simulate, and the physics have to have a speed of light.
00:03:49 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:04:39 <Bike> you divide space into areas (in Life, squares of width 2^n for some natural n).
00:04:41 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, it depends on what you mean by 'life'. There is no 'reality' saying "This is life, and this isn't". The term 'life' is what we define it to be
00:04:59 <hagb4rd> yea i mean from the point of the biologists
00:05:00 <Bike> then for each space, you can find what the center of that space will be in some time, due to the speed of light.
00:05:51 <Bike> i.e., if you have a 2^8 block in Life, the center 2^4 block can be simulated 2^3 steps ahead, without caring about any other 2^8 block, because the speed of light is 1 square per step.
00:07:01 <Bike> for representing a block of space, rather than tracking the actual Life bitmap or whatever, you just have each block be five pointers (in Life anyway), each to a block half the size of the block.
00:07:08 <Bike> four quadrants + a cached future center
00:07:16 <pikhq> Hashlife adds to this a hash map of subspaces.
00:07:30 <pikhq> (as a cache, of course)
00:07:52 <oerjan> Koen___: http://xkcd.com/505/ hth
00:08:00 <Bike> Yeah, the idea is, if you need a new space for whatever reason, you make it out of its linked subspaces, and if those subspaces have been combined before, you can just use that same previous combination.
00:08:04 <Bike> which might have its future cached.
00:08:09 <pikhq> It turns out that Life tends to have many common subspaces, so doing this lets you skip a lot of combination via memoization.
00:08:39 <Bike> what if i'm simulating life with SKI pikhq, what then
00:08:55 <pikhq> Then you are memoizing combinations as well. :P
00:10:28 <hagb4rd> aw..you're talking about the game of life
00:10:29 <Koen___> oerjan: yeah that was a really good one
00:11:03 <Bike> well, if you want real life, virology is pretty interesting
00:11:19 <Bike> there are viruses that have more protein construction mechanisms than some bacteria
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00:11:41 <Bike> "mamavirus" because what is even your deal, virologists
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00:12:51 <Bike> also http://rybicki.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/from-what-did-viruses-evolve-or-how-did-they-initially-arise/
00:13:21 <Bike> the idea that viruses have come about originally several times is a pretty neat one, since it's not the case for life in general
00:14:07 <hagb4rd> i understand it's still a controversial topic
00:14:51 <Bike> well nobody really understands what the fuck happened with abiogenesis, so there's that.
00:18:34 <pikhq> Gotta love things where we just go "well, it clearly happened"
00:20:20 <Bike> there's RNA world and clay world and all as hypotheses that are half-plausible but they're still pretty out there
00:20:41 <kmc> panspermia
00:20:51 <hagb4rd> hail the mighty penis in the sky
00:20:55 <Bike> main that ain't a real solution >:
00:21:09 <kmc> main ain't usually a function
00:22:01 <kmc> yeah it isn't
00:22:19 <Bike> it would be nice if we could at least conclude it, though.
00:23:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Borderline_life how useful
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00:26:53 <Bike> viroids are cool and that's that man
00:43:44 <shachaf> um...................the ch is a fricative...........................................................
00:43:57 <Bike> That sounds like nerd stuff.
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00:47:55 <shachaf> hey Bike write me a limerick
00:48:17 <Bike> there once was a man from nantucket, whose cock was so long he could suck it,
00:48:52 <oerjan> he said write, not quote, Bike
00:55:52 <shachaf> Fiora: Do you know about de bruijn sequences?
00:58:35 <Fiora> um... they're the things you can use to do leading-zero count with bit hackiness, right?
01:00:23 <shachaf> Trailing, I thought? Possibly both. Anyway that's one thing you can do with them.
01:00:26 <Bike> oh that thing that's in sanskrit for some reason.
01:00:26 <shachaf> Also lots of other things. De Bruijn was the best.
01:02:09 <Fiora> other things? I remember looking at the wikipedia article and being a bit confused
01:03:18 <kmc> i think i am slowly learning how to pronounce 'shachaf'
01:03:37 <shachaf> And, uh, let's say you have a keypad-combination-lock with no termination digit. You can use a de bruijn sequence to figure out the most efficient way to brute-force it!
01:03:47 <shachaf> (Maybe it's not called brute-force at that point...)
01:04:09 <shachaf> I went to a talk which mentioned them.
01:04:25 <Bike> it's hebrew isn't it? and if i've learned anything from Rugrats it's that i can't pronounce hebrew "ch"
01:04:33 <kmc> we had a lot of locks like that in college, and people did bruteforce them
01:04:44 <kmc> except I think they weren't precisely with-no-termination-digit
01:05:08 <Bike> i fucking love that first kana
01:05:24 <Fiora> It looks like a sideways smiley XD
01:05:40 <Bike> the combination lock thing is neat though
01:05:47 <shachaf> Fiora: I doubt it. The "ch" is as in the recording on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
01:06:20 <Fiora> oh. darn. I can't kana that
01:06:34 <Bike> we clearly need hebrew with a japanese alphabet
01:07:15 <shachaf> The effect was something along these lines: He handed out a deck of cards, told a few people to cut it, and then had 5 people take the top card and pass the deck to the person on their right.
01:07:30 <Bike> I have a lot of trouble with the phonemes that look like "x" in ipa
01:07:37 <shachaf> Then he said "I have a strong sense of red... Stand up if you have a red card".
01:07:42 <shachaf> Then he told everyon what their card was.
01:07:56 <shachaf> If you know about de bruijn sequences you can figure out how it works!
01:08:01 <pikhq> I think the Japanese approximation whould be "shahhafu".
01:08:21 <Fiora> (I still like the シ)
01:08:22 <pikhq> There'd be a sokuon there.
01:08:37 <Bike> it's just so damn happy to be a character
01:08:40 <Fiora> makes sense... doubled-h is kind of a weird thing in japanese
01:09:07 <pikhq> it is, but that's how it's done.
01:09:07 <Bike> doesn't japanese have "doubled consonants" as a usual thing?
01:09:23 <pikhq> Bike: That particular consonant being doubled is unusual.
01:09:51 <pikhq> Though not *impossible*.
01:09:57 <pikhq> Admittedly only a thing in loan words.
01:10:37 <shachaf> What are other good applications of de bruijn sequences?
01:11:08 <olsner> brute forcing code locks?
01:11:23 <Bike> Maybe if you want to be able to sample all possible sequences of a certain length easily?
01:12:22 <olsner> apparently it has applications in sanskrit prosody
01:12:38 <Bike> wondering if you could use it in DNA somehow, except that proteins are variably length coded to say the least
01:13:03 <shachaf> I guess de bruijn sequences are related to shift registers somehow?
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01:26:39 <kmc> how do you generate de bruijn sequences
01:27:34 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence#Algorithm something like this I guess?
01:28:31 <olsner> I wonder if that's really the best way
01:29:03 <Bike> the problem with that page is that i try to find a euler path in the pictured graph >_>
01:29:44 <Sgeo> Going to work on Rebol deadfish
01:30:07 <Bike> Fiora: hit every edge exactly once
01:30:57 <Bike> well it's supposed to be a cycle also.
01:30:57 <Sgeo> And I can't even figure out how to read just one character from the console
01:31:02 <Sgeo> Erm, from stdin
01:31:17 <Fiora> Bike: oh, so it's like that puzzle about crossing each bridge once
01:31:26 <Bike> Fiora: exactly the same puzzle, even
01:31:29 <Sgeo> I guess I could try reading the whole thing in, and hoping that it doesn't actually store the whole thing in memory
01:31:31 <kmc> they're easy to find, unlikel hamiltonian paths
01:31:36 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_K%C3%B6nigsberg
01:31:37 <olsner> "de Bruijn sequences can be generated by feedback shift registers" according to http://mathworld.wolfram.com/deBruijnSequence.html
01:31:38 <kmc> (which visit every vertex once)
01:32:15 <Sgeo> kmc, which makes more sense, a Racket version of Qoppa, or a Rebol version of Qoppa? Racket is more Lispy, but there's less of an impedence mismatch between Rebol and Qoppa than Racket and Qoppa
01:32:45 <kmc> i don't know
01:33:33 <Bike> i do not understand the use of "impedence mismatch" here
01:35:19 <Sgeo> Racket is a rather static language. Modules are expected to know what values they can export, for example
01:35:55 <Sgeo> At ... a point in static analysis... hmm, suddenly I'm not sure whether that might be the case for various proposed module systems for Rebol
01:37:30 <Sgeo> At any rate, right now I should be writing some documentation for work
01:37:35 <Sgeo> Told my boss I'd do that when I get home
01:39:51 <Sgeo> I think Qoppa is closer to Rebol than Racket conceptually
01:40:52 <kmc> you could also implement Kernel instead of my weird bastardized version of Kernel
01:41:04 <Bike> but cyclic lists are /so annoying/ kmc
01:41:13 <kmc> a lot of the changes are just for the sake of the self-hosting trick
01:41:22 <kmc> in a sense the Qoppa interpreter I posted is a polyglot program
01:41:39 <Sgeo> kmc, but didn't you unbastardize the bizarre distinction between functions and operatives?
01:41:52 <kmc> but I guess there are some unsavory consequences too
01:44:49 <Bike> i still don't really get why you all think that distinction is weird
01:45:40 <kmc> Sgeo: i don't remember, it's in the blog post
01:46:21 <kmc> Bike: it's just weird because fexprs let you remove so many cases from the evaluator, but then you end up with two cases that are almost the same
01:47:31 <Bike> what two cases?
01:47:40 <kmc> for operatives and applicatives
01:47:52 <Bike> combine applicative combinand env = combine (unwrap applicative) (map (eval env) combinand) env
01:47:52 <kmc> in Kernel they are distinct fundamental data types
01:47:59 <Bike> or do i not understand what cases you're talking about
01:48:22 <kmc> that's a case yes
01:48:22 <Bike> applicatives aren't really fundamental, they're just a wrapper around operatives
01:48:37 <kmc> in Kernel they are presented as fundamental
01:48:41 <kmc> that's what Sgeo and I think is weird
01:49:42 <Bike> "an applicative is nothing more than a wrapper to induce operand evaluation" doesn't seem that fundamental
01:49:47 <Bike> and i don't get how the cases are the same?
01:50:06 <Sgeo> Bike, the fact that it's physically different than just putting a wrapper around an operand
01:50:16 <Bike> "physically different"?
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01:50:33 <Sgeo> As in, there's an actual distinction, at the language level, saying "these are applicatives", and "these are operatives"
01:50:45 <kmc> okay, they're not really the same because you can implement one in terms of the other, but it's one more case and one more fundamental data type than I would like to have.
01:50:55 <Sgeo> Rather than "everything is an operatives, and some operatives happen to have a wrapper around them that evaluates their arguments when called"
01:51:19 <kmc> it's just weird that "things which happen to evaluate all their args first" are seen as fundamentally different from "things which may or may not evaluate all their args first"
01:51:32 <Bike> hm, maybe i'm thinking of it differently since i've been working maru style.
01:52:09 <Bike> you could have generic functions, for example, and use "wrap" on them to get them to evaluate their arguments, even as generic functions have a totally different combination mechanism from operatives
01:52:35 <Bike> and the applicative path of the evaluator doesn't have to have any idea that the thing it's unwrapping isn't a regular operative
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02:12:52 <Bike> @pl \x y -> all ((flip elem) y) x
02:13:12 <Bike> how's @pl work?
02:14:45 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'y + y'
02:14:59 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'x + x + y + y'
02:15:00 <jconn> Sgeo: [ + [ + ] + ]
02:16:14 <Sgeo> ) 13 : 'x + y + x + y'
02:19:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoovlogreader: o.O she's named Zhaan? I thought it was Xan!
02:21:23 <Gregor> "What's the most complex thing you do in your kitchen?" "Worry about death."
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02:32:43 <hagb4rd> @showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:33:35 <Bike> > showIntAtBase 2 (intToDigit 23 "")
02:33:36 <lambdabot> The function `GHC.Show.intToDigit' is applied to two arguments,
02:34:07 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23
02:34:11 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
02:34:23 <hagb4rd> @showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:34:28 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23
02:34:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
02:35:31 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 ""
02:36:31 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 23 "bla"
02:36:40 <kmc> i'm told that false morels (Gyromitra esculenta) are sold in Finland and eaten after careful preparation
02:37:14 <kmc> weird brain-looking mushroom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fr%C3%BChjahrslorchel.JPG
02:37:37 <hagb4rd> i really don't understand why there is that 2nd argument..does that make any sense?
02:38:07 <Fiora> That mushroom looks like a funnel cake
02:38:46 <kmc> > intToDigit 15
02:38:52 <kmc> > intToDigit 35
02:38:54 <lambdabot> *Exception: Char.intToDigit: not a digit 35
02:38:58 <kmc> > intToDigit 16
02:39:00 <lambdabot> *Exception: Char.intToDigit: not a digit 16
02:39:10 <kmc> anyway it lets you use whatever alphabet you want
02:39:30 <kmc> > showIntAtBase ("-."!!) intToDigit 23 ""
02:39:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral
02:39:42 <kmc> > showIntAtBase 2 ("-."!!) 23 ""
02:39:58 <hagb4rd> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit ff
02:42:00 <hagb4rd> i'd like to somehow implement a little tool throwing 'i-ching' hexagrams
02:42:37 <Bike> well, ~yi does that, if metasepia's around.
02:43:09 <Sgeo> Starting to see some flaws in the Rebol model
02:43:15 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fungi_of_Finland
02:43:29 <Sgeo> For instance, it's difficult to write a thing that puts all setting into a new scope, but leaves others untouched
02:44:03 <Sgeo> If you don't look inside nested code, then you can't do sets inside control structures. But if you do, you could get odd behavior if you try to use the same function inside that thing
02:44:28 <Sgeo> fwiw, what Rebol does with its context function is not look inside nested blocks
02:45:50 <Sgeo> Maybe an example
02:46:37 <Sgeo> >> a: 5 context [a: 6 print a] print a
02:46:41 <Sgeo> That prints 6 then 5
02:46:59 <Sgeo> a: 5 context [print a a: 6] print a
02:47:02 <Sgeo> prints none then 5
02:47:08 <Sgeo> Nothing too bizarre so far
02:48:03 <Sgeo> a: 5 context [if 0 < 1 [a: 6] print a] print a
02:56:07 <Sgeo> There's a hack that can be done to do varargs in Rebol 3. Apparently it's slated for removal
03:05:20 <Sgeo> And I found a hack that doesn't need that hack
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06:22:08 <zamlierza> I'm currently working on my first compiler, for a lisp-like language, written in Common Lisp (sbcl). Recently I've been playing with Racket. Is anyone else here using one of the lisps?
06:22:33 <Bike> esoteric lisp?
06:24:37 <Bike> i'm just wondering why you're asking here
06:30:40 <HackEgo> ZaMlIeRzA: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
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06:48:18 <shachaf> kmc: lens has a good intatbase thing
06:49:29 <lambdabot> s -> Getting (First a) s a -> Maybe a
06:49:40 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => Int -> p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
06:49:54 <shachaf> hi Bike want to learn about lens
06:50:11 <Bike> what is lens, really? we just don't know
06:50:42 <shachaf> @ty ( # ) -- interferes with a GHC extension for (# ... #) tuple syntax
06:50:55 <shachaf> lens is a library for a bunch of things, including lenses.
06:51:11 <shachaf> And prisms, which are colenses. (base n) is a prism.
06:51:32 <Bike> lens is a getter and a setter, you said. what's a colens.
06:52:20 <shachaf> Well, a colens is to a sum what a lens is to a product.
06:52:26 <shachaf> Do you know about sums and products?
06:52:54 <shachaf> (a,b) is a product, (Either a b) is a sum.
06:53:05 <shachaf> And all things which behave like tuples or Eithers.
06:53:33 <shachaf> If A has n inhabitants and B has m inhabitants, then (A,B) has n*m and (Either A B) has (n+m)
06:53:55 <shachaf> So you see how a lens is for a product?
06:54:03 <shachaf> data Foo = Foo { one :: Int, two :: Char }
06:54:25 <shachaf> You can have a "one" lens which lets you do two things: Read the "one" value, and change the "one" value to some new Int.
06:54:51 <shachaf> data Bar = One Int | Two Char
06:55:01 <shachaf> You can have a "One" prism which also lets you do two things:
06:55:13 <shachaf> The things are Int -> Bar and Bar -> Maybe Int
06:55:17 <Bike> I'm still back at lenses being products.
06:55:26 <shachaf> Oh, lenses are *for* products.
06:55:33 <shachaf> Since Foo is a product type (of Int and Char).
06:55:44 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
06:55:54 <shachaf> Bar is a sum type of Int and Char.
06:55:59 <zamlierza> I'm working on a genetic program for the creation and optimisation of ciphers, whilst the optimisations still in process here're some early results: http://pastebin.com/GKwfKENX http://pastebin.com/FQdMNqFZ
06:56:12 <shachaf> data Bool = False | True; data Color = Red | Green | Blue
06:56:46 <shachaf> Anyway, which part is confusing right now?
06:56:56 <Bike> zamlierza: the second one is admirably hard to read
06:57:10 <zamlierza> Bike: That is the fun of this channel!
06:57:11 <Bike> shachaf: nothing in particular, that made sense. i'm just sleepy.
06:57:37 <shachaf> A traversal is like a lens onto more than one value.
06:57:46 <shachaf> Well, onto zero or more values.
06:57:47 <Bike> So what's base operating on? or ok something else
06:58:19 <shachaf> Oh, base is on a "conceptual" sum, not an actual sum type.
06:58:34 <Bike> but what's the concept.
06:59:08 <shachaf> The two prism functions are called review and preview
06:59:33 <shachaf> A string is sort of like a sum: Either it has a valid base-N value or an invalid value.
07:00:03 <Bike> is Either in the Choice class?
07:00:08 <shachaf> But given a base-N value you can always turn it into a string.
07:00:21 <zamlierza> I'm thinking of having it automatically encrypt an input of all Falses, deducting abs(sum(map(lambda x: 1 if >= 0 else -1,output))) this will ensure precedence to even distribution, seems to be the simplest part. For the main challenge; avoiding recurrent patterns, I'll be using something along the lines of. http://pastebin.com/5LvxG01V
07:00:21 <shachaf> No, Choice is something more complicated.
07:00:28 <shachaf> It has to do with the representation of prisms lens uses.
07:00:30 <Bike> right, of course.
07:00:42 <zamlierza> obviously accompanied by a similar function for handling lists of recurring True's or False's
07:00:44 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
07:00:54 <zamlierza> I'll upload what I've got so far if anyones got any idea's, otherwise I'll wait until it's at a functioning point.
07:00:56 <shachaf> I can explain that representation but that should be a separate thing.
07:01:06 <Bike> yeah, don't let me derail you
07:01:24 <shachaf> What's derailing me is multisecond latency from my computer to my IRC client.
07:01:42 <Bike> what's derailing me is multisecond latency from my brain to my blinking
07:01:46 <shachaf> obviously accompanied by a similar function for handling lists of recurring True's or False's
07:02:05 <zamlierza> http://pastebin.com/J8Aer7Rx I'm going with that for now.
07:02:21 <zamlierza> It's not genetic yet but I'll build from this: http://pastebin.com/E4dGw97L
07:02:26 <shachaf> So close, zamlierza. Socloszamlierza.
07:02:30 <Bike> man, paste is not doing that indentation good
07:03:21 <shachaf> Bike: Am I going on and talking about the representation of lenses?
07:03:38 <kmc> is it supposed to have a huge amount of copy-pasted code?
07:04:20 <Bike> shachaf: if you go on i'll listen. you had explained how a string can be interpreted wrt numerical bases as a prism, and were about to explain review and preview maybe.
07:04:44 <shachaf> > preview _Left (Left "hi")
07:04:47 <shachaf> > preview _Left (Right "hi")
07:04:57 <shachaf> That's all there is to them. They take the two components of a prism.
07:05:27 <lambdabot> MonadReader b m => AReview s t a b -> m t
07:05:38 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Choice p) => p a (f b) -> p (Either a c) (f (Either b c))
07:05:56 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
07:05:57 <shachaf> _Left :: Prism (Either a c) (Either b c) a b
07:06:05 <Bike> i remember y'all complaining about whoever's bizarre type signatures in lens
07:06:17 <shachaf> Um, the Prism ones are kind of my fault.
07:06:30 <shachaf> (To be fair it was even worse back in the day.)
07:07:11 <shachaf> do you know the following things: mapM; Applicative; Traversable
07:08:12 <Bike> Uh, the first two.
07:08:35 <shachaf> Traversable is just a generalization of mapM with Applicative.
07:08:49 <shachaf> You know how mapM could get away with just requiring Applicative instead of Monad?
07:09:42 <shachaf> OK, so let's pretend mapM uses Applicative instead of Monad from now on.
07:09:59 <shachaf> traverse generalizes mapM the same way fmap generalizes map
07:11:49 <shachaf> So let's define some functions.
07:12:08 <shachaf> one :: (a -> b) -> (a,e) -> (b,e)
07:12:18 <shachaf> two :: (a -> b) -> (e,a) -> (e,b)
07:12:25 <shachaf> both :: (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> (b,b)
07:13:07 <shachaf> These are sort of like fmap, except instead of using a type class to decide what to map over, we just name a function explicitly.
07:14:20 <shachaf> So these are "map" functions -- they let us modify a value/values -- but not "mapM" functions -- we can't have effects.
07:14:43 <shachaf> But we can generalize them in a pretty simple way to be "mapM" functions.
07:14:50 <shachaf> Can you generalize them for me?
07:15:48 <Bike> one :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (a, e) -> m (b, e) maybe
07:16:27 <shachaf> Except you don't need Monad. You can manage with Applicative, or even just Functor.
07:16:30 <Bike> yep not, or yep yep
07:16:48 <Bike> the thing where monads aren't functors seems sillier and sillier.
07:19:11 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTc3PsW5ghQ
07:19:18 <shachaf> yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
07:19:44 <shachaf> Hmm, they're talking too much in English.
07:20:47 <Bike> I don't see how to do it with functor.
07:21:16 <shachaf> Do you see how to do it with MOnad?
07:21:43 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePN5z-6MSoI
07:22:14 <Bike> uh.... i don't think i do, no
07:23:18 <shachaf> OK, start by writing the regular one. Then oneM/oneF/whatever.
07:24:00 <Bike> one f (a, e) = (f a, e)
07:24:07 <shachaf> It's a very put-the-pieces-together sort of puzzle.
07:24:53 <shachaf> > let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, e); oneM f (x, y) = ?hi f x y
07:24:55 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, ...
07:25:00 <shachaf> @ty let oneM :: Functor f => (a -> f b) -> (a, e) -> f (b, e); oneM f (x, y) = ?hi f x y in oneM
07:25:01 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (?hi::(a1 -> f1 b1) -> a1 -> e1 -> f1 (b1, e1))
07:25:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of implicit parameter `?hi'
07:25:22 <shachaf> We have three "ingredients": (a1 -> f1 b1), a1, e1
07:25:36 <shachaf> We have to produce f1 (b1, e1)
07:25:41 <shachaf> We're also allowed to use fmap
07:26:35 <shachaf> What might be our first step?
07:27:22 <shachaf> kmc: those aliens are so great
07:28:30 <kmc> i should learn all this lens stuff
07:28:36 <kmc> it might be an excuse to get excited about Haskell again!
07:29:21 <shachaf> there's an edwardk presentation video about it if you want to watch that
07:29:33 <kmc> the last time I disappeared from Haskell for a while, I came back and everyone was talking about this newfangled Applicative thing and I had to learn that
07:29:59 <shachaf> in fact the rumour is that it might become a superclass of Monad in ghc 7.10 or so..........................
07:30:36 <shachaf> i was "into lens for" a while: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/contributors
07:30:48 <shachaf> but now nobody is committing
07:31:03 <shachaf> edwardk is, like, into his new databases and stuff
07:31:34 <Bike> i don't get how this is possible. to get an f1 (b1, e1) there's no other way but fmap, so we need an f1 (a1, e1), but we have no way to get that
07:32:11 <shachaf> But that something needn't be a tuple.
07:32:32 <shachaf> It just needs to be something that you can turn into (b1, e1)
07:33:04 <Bike> god, i'm so slow
07:34:10 <Bike> oneF f a b = fmap (\b -> (b, e)) (f a) maybe
07:34:28 <Bike> oneF f (a,e) b rather
07:34:46 <shachaf> And not that either. It only has two arguments.
07:34:56 <Bike> thinking is hard
07:35:10 <shachaf> oneF f (x,y) = fmap (\x' -> (x', y)) (f x)
07:35:28 <shachaf> oneF f (x,y) = (,y) <$> f x -- if you like this sort of thing
07:35:29 <Bike> is that what i said with different letters? i literally can't tell right now
07:36:00 <shachaf> both :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> f (b,b)
07:36:23 <shachaf> (By the way, you might be so tired you can't tell, but I'm so tired I'm explaining everything badly. So if you have to blame someone blame me. hth)
07:37:32 <shachaf> Anyway, so the great thing about this is that it lets you read as well as write.
07:37:44 <shachaf> OK, I'm not making any sense anyway.
07:38:00 <kmc> the part of it i read made sense!
07:38:41 <shachaf> OK, let's go backward a bit.
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07:39:48 <shachaf> ok will say nothing until someone else says something
07:39:55 <Bike> i'm still thinking!!
07:39:57 <Bike> i told you it was hard
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07:40:34 <kmc> no it was "some"
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07:45:38 <Bike> ok i'm declaring myself too tired to thinking through this because jfc it's been ten minutes and this is not hard
07:45:47 <Bike> thanks for the random explanation, i'll think about it tomorrow
07:45:56 <shachaf> wait, what are you thinking about
07:46:25 <shachaf> you have to use Applicative
07:46:36 <shachaf> which means you get to use liftA2
07:46:41 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c) -> f a -> f b -> f c
07:48:28 <shachaf> Remember, it's just mapM for tuples.
07:50:41 <Bike> both f (a,a') = liftA2 (,) (f a) (f a')
07:52:12 <shachaf> Now, exercise: Write oldBoth using both.
07:52:44 <shachaf> (I'm too tired to explain things so I'm just giving exercises instead.)
07:52:48 <Bike> oldBoth :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> (a,a) -> (b,b) you mean?
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07:52:57 <Bike> er, w/o restriction.
07:53:26 <shachaf> By the way, we define type synonyms for these things.
07:53:40 <shachaf> In theory we could just say type Mapper s a = (a -> a) -> s -> s
07:53:50 <shachaf> And then oldBoth :: Mapper (a,a) a
07:53:54 <shachaf> But then we can't change the type.
07:54:04 <shachaf> So we write type Mapper s t a b = (a -> b) -> s -> t
07:54:09 <shachaf> oldBoth :: Mapper (a,a) (b,b) a b
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08:03:07 <shachaf> Bike: perhaps tomorrow, a lensson
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12:06:54 <oerjan> <kmc> anyway it lets you use whatever alphabet you want <-- of course someone should have noticed that it's stupid to restrict it to Char...
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12:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Timeline_of_cool.svg this is a terribly confusing chart
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12:46:17 <boily> s/confusing/depressing/
12:46:28 <boily> everything getting borg'ed into dance/techno...
12:47:45 <oerjan> no no, clearly we'll be saved by something coming out of the preppy ennui hth
12:48:03 <oerjan> just take care of your sangfroid man
12:48:45 <boily> oerjan: that's good advice.
12:48:50 <boily> (btw, what's preppi ennui?)
12:49:36 <oerjan> i think it means something like bored upper-class
12:50:10 <boily> that doesn't help me much about how it sounds.
12:51:04 <boily> 5 hits for “preppy ennui”. go, youtube, go!
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12:51:50 <boily> and no wiki article. what the fungot is this unknown musical current. it must be hipster as hell.
12:52:12 <boily> oh, an fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOT!
12:52:16 <boily> (pretty please :D)
12:53:00 <boily> @tell fizzie AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAfungotAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
12:54:43 <oerjan> boily: um the chart is not basically about music hth
12:55:31 <HackEgo> 2013-06-03 17:46:37: <fizzie> I've installed that "Hacker's Keyboard" thing from the market to my Android thing. But maybe it's not all that combattible.
12:57:29 <boily> oerjan: indeed. there is dadaism and surrealism and other stuff. I got distracted by the bottom section and the geographical locations.
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14:51:39 <Koen_> oerjan: do you know who 76.100.81.188 is?
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17:01:10 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ No; their only other edit is to Talk:Jug.
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17:11:36 <oerjan> argh the daystar, through my window!
17:13:05 <shachaf> oerjan: That is why we do not go into it without our abjurations. Protection from Daylight.
17:14:46 <boily> protection from the daystar is an abjuration?
17:15:02 -!- jsvine has joined.
17:16:19 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html
17:19:09 <shachaf> Is there a place that has good transcriptions of every oots comic?
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17:25:43 <shachaf> oerjan: when are we getting 892 hth
17:26:25 <oerjan> when the stars are right hth
17:31:27 <metasepia> CYUL 061700Z 09005KT 10SM -RA SCT055 OVC075 15/08 A3017 RMK SC3AC5 SLP216
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20:05:42 <boily> ~eval text "seems that I don't have this character, or rxvt is being mean to me again."
20:05:42 <kappabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg kappabot @messages' to read it.
20:05:46 <boily> ~eval text "seems that I don't have this character, or rxvt is being mean to me again."
20:05:48 <metasepia> Perhaps you meant `next' (imported from System.Random)
20:06:19 <boily> oerjan: tomorrow. it's past 4pm now.
20:08:08 <boily> you said about three weeks ago: “whack me in the morning.”
20:08:29 <oerjan> that's some late morning.
20:08:34 <boily> I don't remember why I had to whack you, but I'm a honest man who keeps his promises.
20:09:05 <oerjan> yes, it's quite a french error to do
20:09:49 <boily> so, would 9am EST suit you?
20:10:24 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
20:10:45 <oerjan> well i cannot _guarantee_ i'll be up by then, since i barely was today
20:11:30 <oerjan> i'm not on UTC. ok that could be enough.
20:11:36 <kappabot> Yow! Is my fallout shelter termite proof?
20:11:40 <metasepia> This fortune intentionally says nothing.
20:12:27 <kappabot> Down with categorical imperative!
20:12:49 <oerjan> maybe i should eat an apple, seeing as i unusually bought some
20:14:35 * oerjan health freak. or was it freaky health.
20:15:08 <oerjan> shachaf: those are some general fortunes
20:15:58 <boily> I have some “MIX RICE CRACKERS” on my desk. their ingredients are: RIZ GLUANT,SAUCE SOYA,TAPI.
20:16:14 <boily> what in fungot's name is TAPI, I have no idea.
20:16:43 <oerjan> it's tapirs, they just got cut off hth
20:17:25 <kappabot> Maj. Bloodnok:Seagoon, you're a coward!
20:17:25 <kappabot> Seagoon:Only in the holiday season.
20:17:25 <kappabot> Maj. Bloodnok:Ah, another Noel Coward!
20:17:42 <kappabot> When conflict is reconciled, some hard feelings remain;
20:17:42 <kappabot> The sage accepts less than is due
20:17:52 <kappabot> The ancients said: "nature is impartial;
20:17:54 <kappabot> Therefore it serves those who serve all."
20:18:10 <shachaf> i thought it would be an entry from the devil's dictionary hth
20:18:17 <metasepia> What does "it" mean in the sentence "What time is it?"?
20:18:21 <Bike> i can't get over his name sounding like "lousy"
20:18:40 <shachaf> Bike: it doesn't sound like lousy hth
20:18:47 <oerjan> boily: which ~yi entry is the above @fortune for twh
20:20:13 <oerjan> Bike: yeah those chinese have such confusious names
20:20:23 <metasepia> Your divination: "Gnawing Bite" to "Brightness Hiding"
20:20:36 <boily> why did I code that again...
20:20:56 <oerjan> to know your fate, obviously
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20:58:39 <Bike> What was the packagey thing that had unsigned/verified/etc. packages and somebody wrote a quick exploit for it?
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21:04:01 <oerjan> HARLOT_SAFE: is that safe for harlots or safe from harlots?
21:04:59 <HARLOT_SAFE> oerjan: neither: it means I'm safe from being a werewolf because the harlot visited me :)
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21:08:50 <oerjan> copumpkin: i think your services are required
21:09:08 <oerjan> ignore the elliott spam thx
21:09:18 <co> elliott: you should play wolfgame
21:10:00 <elliott> oerjan: you should op me so I can kick myself for spamming
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21:10:35 <category> i'm telling you to op me!!!!!!!!!
21:10:35 * oerjan suddenly envisions there being a huge amount of opening brackets at the big bang and closing brackets at the other end to balance out the universe
21:10:38 <category> it is a categorical imperative
21:11:08 <mnoqy> category: hi shachaf
21:11:29 <oerjan> i believe kappabot has already started a rebellion against those, category
21:11:36 <kappabot> Rincewind formed a mental picture of some strange entity living in a castle
21:11:37 <kappabot> made of teeth. It was the kind of mental picture you tried to forget.
21:11:37 <kappabot> -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic"
21:11:44 <Bike> has anyone actually read kant (i haven't)
21:11:53 <elliott> Bike: i tried to but... i kant
21:12:02 <shachaf> Bike: i tried, but i kouldnt do it
21:12:12 <Bike> shachaf > elliott
21:12:18 <Bike> srry just the facts
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21:14:39 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you hear my limerick the other day
21:19:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: look at this innovations
21:23:23 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my limerick
21:23:41 <oerjan> was this the one with multiocular o
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21:30:01 <Bike> http://www.nsa.gov/kids/ oh yes.
21:31:19 -!- co has changed nick to twilight_sparkle.
21:31:40 <Bike> On this site, you can learn all about codes and ciphers, play lots of games and activities, and get to know each of us - Crypto Cat®, Decipher Dog®, Rosetta Stone®, Slate®, Joules™, T.Top®, CyberTwins™ Cy and Cyndi, and, of course, our leader CSS Sam®.
21:31:46 <oerjan> m chocolate covered peanuts
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21:31:56 <Bike> I don't know why some are trademarked and some are copyrighted.
21:32:00 <Fiora> Bike: my gosh, that is amazing.
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21:32:20 <mnoqy> im gonna play operation:dit-dah
21:32:41 <mnoqy> oh it's just doing morse code
21:32:45 <mnoqy> maybe they have other games
21:33:01 <mnoqy> Yardleygrams - Only SUPER cipher solvers can crack these cipher stories
21:33:24 <kmc> 4096-bit RSA
21:33:29 <mnoqy> Coloring Pages - Print and color your favorite member from the CryptoKids
21:33:34 <mnoqy> i think this is the game for me
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21:37:33 <elliott> Bike: so nsa is advertising to furries now
21:37:51 <Bike> america's future yiffers
21:38:28 <mnoqy> it's not uncommon to use anthropomorphic animal friends for things directed at children
21:38:37 <mnoqy> maybe this is a two birds with one stone sort of deal
21:38:44 <kmc> http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=CG-FCA&Category_Code=WON
21:39:03 <elliott> these things look a bit "fursona" to me, mnoqy
21:39:07 <Bike> Existentialists Do It Pointlessly
21:39:17 <kmc> haskellers do it pointlessly
21:39:32 <mnoqy> whatt's, "it", here
21:39:35 <elliott> #haskellers do it in stereo
21:39:46 <Bike> mnoqy: the nasty hth
21:39:56 <mnoqy> lots of things are nasty, bike
21:40:00 <mnoqy> you'll have to be more specific
21:40:07 <mnoqy> like is it boogers??? those are pretty nasty
21:40:08 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.thestrong.org/online-collections/images/Z003/Z00361/Z0036126.jpg
21:40:12 <Fiora> this is how I learned to type when I was um... about 6
21:40:41 <Bike> is that a 5 ½ floppy
21:40:48 <Bike> shachaf: that's ® isn't it
21:40:51 <shachaf> Bike: ™ and ® are both trademarks. The latter is a registered trademark.
21:40:58 <Fiora> I think it was a CD
21:41:01 <Fiora> It's for windows 95
21:41:06 <mnoqy> i remember a bunch of anthro from my kiddo years
21:41:07 <Fiora> so 7 years old I guess?
21:41:13 <mnoqy> like richard scarry's busytown
21:41:17 <Bike> i think i learned typing from... something like that but with less animals
21:41:21 <Bike> lots of games with animals though
21:41:35 <kmc> busytown was p. cool
21:41:40 <shachaf> Bike: did you see my limerick
21:41:45 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/94/RichardScarrysBusytown.PNG
21:42:16 <Fiora> the typing game had all these cool little minigames
21:42:18 <mnoqy> shachaf: you should be ++ing about that amazing picture not the https
21:42:21 <Bike> so now that people are here do any of them know the answer to my earlier question about: hackage or something exploits
21:42:27 <Fiora> like I remember one which was like a wild west shootout except you had to type to take out the bad guys
21:42:30 <Bike> Fiora: typing of the dead
21:42:34 <Fiora> yeah, I was thinking the same thing <.<
21:42:44 <kmc> that was a cool game
21:42:45 <Bike> resident evil, high wpm edition
21:43:07 <shachaf> what's your wpm per minute
21:43:07 <mnoqy> huckle cat & lowly worm
21:44:27 <Fiora> oh wow typing of the dead has a pc version
21:44:36 <mnoqy> ive played a few typing games in my time but they never really helped me...i learned to type once i started typing things like the compute code's
21:45:23 <mnoqy> "About 500,000 Lowly Worm and Huckle Cat finger puppets, distributed by Taco Bell in 1993, were voluntarily recalled by Taco Bell following complaints that the puppets had gotten stuck onto children's tongues."
21:45:31 <Bike> in typing class i mostly just played Bolo
21:45:56 <Fiora> I played Paws a lot about the same time as learning piano
21:46:00 <Fiora> it kind of synergized I think
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21:47:19 <elliott> Bike: hackage exploits aren't really impressive because like...
21:47:34 <elliott> Bike: literally anyone with a hackage account can upload a new version of any package
21:47:41 <elliott> it's like breaking into a house with no doors
21:47:57 <mnoqy> it's prettty hard to break into a house with no doors
21:48:01 <mnoqy> how about a house made of doors
21:48:04 <elliott> i could upload a new version of parsec right now
21:48:07 <Bike> this other packagey thing uses http without auth or anything and a recent kmc tweet made me think "wait that's a bad thing"
21:48:31 <elliott> the thing with hackage is like
21:48:37 <elliott> you can't even secure it like distro stuff
21:48:45 <elliott> because that involves trusting your distro people
21:49:00 <elliott> with hackage the problem is that you... don't trust anyone you're getting the code from
21:49:15 <Bike> look maybe i meant cabal or ruby gems or whatever, it could be anything
21:49:57 <elliott> it's true of rubygems too, it's true of all systems like this that aren't "actual package managers"
21:50:56 <elliott> i mean you can still improve the security under the assumption that you trust the maintainers of the packages being installed
21:51:07 <elliott> it's just that that is basically never the case, is all I'm saying
21:51:54 <Bike> so i shouldn't care that i'm getting unsigned tarballs
21:52:23 <elliott> well i guess it's still the case that you trust a random MITMer less than a random package maintainer
21:52:37 <elliott> but that is probably because you trust a random package maintainer too much (generic "you")
21:53:00 <kmc> hacked by chinese
21:53:35 <kmc> one reason I use Debian is that they actually care about this shit
21:53:44 <kmc> damn kids these days
21:55:00 <kmc> http://www.aeonmagazine.com/living-together/james-somers-web-developer-money/ has lots of complaining about kids these days
21:56:01 <elliott> kmc: care enough to break you know what
21:57:37 <elliott> but it does speak something in favour of low-"tampering" distros
21:58:11 <kmc> it's not 100% debian's fault though
21:58:15 <kmc> but partially
21:59:48 <elliott> yeah, the original openssl code sucked
21:59:56 <elliott> but as i understand it, all of openssl's code sucks
22:00:16 <elliott> so you can't have a security model that relies on any of openssl's code not sucking
22:00:33 <Bike> can we have a security model based on nothing working ever
22:02:58 <Bike> 'cos i see all this security research and then apparently a distro had shitty keys for two years and no one noticed?
22:03:57 <nooodl> COMBINING DOUBLE ACUTE ACCENT
22:03:57 <nooodl> WHITE SQUARE WITH UPPER LEFT QUADRANT
22:03:57 <nooodl> FULLWIDTH VERTICAL LINE
22:03:57 <nooodl> FISH CAKE WITH SWIRL DESIGN
22:03:57 <nooodl> LATIN LETTER VOICED LARYNGEAL SPIRANT
22:04:40 <Bike> please rephrase your unicode character names in the form of a limerick
22:06:00 <nooodl> it doesn't flow that well, and you could easiliy achieve that by placing multiple characters on one verse
22:07:05 <nooodl> "LATIN LETTER VOICED LARYNGEAL SPIRANT" is a very acceptable limerick verse if you don't pronounce the /i/
22:08:07 <Bike> isn't it pronounced lair-in-gee-el
22:08:46 <nooodl> you'd have to pronounce it as "lair-in-jull"
22:09:18 <Bike> that's not too much of a stretch
22:09:52 <nooodl> apparently "laryngal [ləˈrɪŋgəl]" is an accepted alternate form
22:09:59 <nooodl> but that's not what it says in the codepoints!
22:11:53 <Bike> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data TOP SECRET//NOFORN: best classification?
22:12:57 <kmc> no fornication
22:13:16 <nooodl> this one is very good:
22:13:17 <nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:13:17 <nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:13:17 <nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:13:17 <nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
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22:13:47 <Bike> that's beautiful
22:14:10 <kmc> as I've observed before, KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT would be a good name for a band
22:14:35 <shachaf> what about 2FCE KANGXI RADICAL DRUM
22:14:39 <shachaf> that would be a good name for a bad band
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22:16:31 <nooodl> (how many of those characters display correctly for you)
22:16:43 <shachaf> they're kind of overlapping
22:18:04 <nooodl> i wanna see the full thing...
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22:18:21 <Bike> Can you do other forms of poetry?
22:18:52 <Bike> hard mode: haiku, with cutting and seasonal words
22:19:00 <kmc> what's cutting
22:19:18 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kireji
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22:20:23 <Bike> basically haiku are more complicated than 5-7-5 (if you're an angry traditionalist japanese poet)
22:20:41 <kmc> when i grow up i want to be an angry traditionalist japanese poet
22:21:48 <nooodl> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:22:27 <nooodl> Bike: btw do you see my kireji
22:22:42 -!- Gregor has joined.
22:22:53 <Bike> well you just picked one out of the wikipedia article
22:22:58 <Bike> nonetheless, awesome
22:23:13 <Bike> SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW works nicely as a zen reference
22:23:37 -!- kmc has set topic: Snowman without snow. | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
22:23:47 <nooodl> i'm so amazed SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW exists
22:23:50 <kmc> what's the kirenji there
22:24:25 <Bike> "ya" is a kireji, as is the character named
22:24:25 <nooodl> because や was used as a kireji apparently
22:24:27 <shachaf> Hmm, 3316 SQUARE KIROMEETORU [㌖]
22:24:32 <kmc> wait doesn't that have.......... two seasonal references
22:24:47 <Bike> no way it's all autumn
22:24:49 <nooodl> "without snow" though imo thats clearly autumn
22:25:07 <kmc> the snowman is actually made of mochi
22:25:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: Slenderman without slender. | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
22:25:31 <shachaf> These transliterated units are weird.
22:25:53 -!- nooodl has set topic: MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric |.
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22:28:14 <shachaf> these syllable requirements are not compatible with my style
22:28:33 <shachaf> my style includes RIGHTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN ABOVE LEFTWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB DOWN
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22:30:26 <shachaf> 2A94 GREATER-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL ABOVE LESS-THAN ABOVE SLANTED EQUAL [⪔]
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22:32:35 <Bike> maybe there's some meter you can make that fit
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22:38:44 <tswett> Hm. Gréater thán abóve slánted équal abóve léss-than abóve slánted équal.
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22:38:58 <tswett> / - / - / / - / - - / / - - / / - / -
22:39:02 <Bike> i linked the wikipedia article.
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23:10:30 <HackEgo> 274) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 308) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I becom
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23:37:34 <Sgeo> I utterly despise Apple after the events of today.
23:38:43 <Sgeo> Wanted to see why a web page wasn't working on iPhone. Look for information on how to get a web console up. DIscover that on iOS 6, you need to use Safari.. version 6. Which is unavailable for windows
23:38:51 <Sgeo> So, to debug web pages on iOS 6, you need a Mac.
23:43:15 <kmc> that and they've been running a NSA backdoor in their servers for a year
23:44:15 <kmc> but so has everyone else http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data
23:48:24 <shachaf> You need Apple equipment to develop things for Apple equipment? Doesn't sound so unusual.
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23:53:15 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-administration-releases-nations-phone-record,32712/
23:54:30 <Sgeo> shachaf, but needing X-brand equipment to develop for a different piece of X-brand equipment is kind of sucky. Although typical for Apple.
23:55:11 <elliott> Fiora: oh btw, i saw that game of life post in the logs, really cool
23:55:22 <shachaf> elliott: http://nineties.github.io/category-seminar/
23:55:29 <shachaf> lrn some category theory hth
23:56:12 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that there is some kind of us national security process for giving us citizens/companies gagging orders that they're forbidden from revealing the existence of; maybe those companies all got one.
23:56:25 <shachaf> being such an active tumblr user, you should follow that yourself
23:56:31 <Bike> they're called national security letters
23:57:05 <elliott> oerjan: there was a great guardian report relating to that
23:57:26 <Bike> oh, hey, «On March 14, 2013, Judge Susan Illston of Federal District Court in San Francisco struck down the law establishing NSLs, writing that the prohibition on disclosure of receipt of such an order made the statute “impermissibly overbroad” under the First Amendment»
23:57:53 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/oct/12/guardian-gagged-from-reporting-parliament
23:58:07 <elliott> literally the entire story is "we can't tell you a thing"
23:58:10 <oerjan> some sense has been used
23:58:16 <oerjan> elliott: ah the uk version?
23:58:16 <elliott> The Guardian is also forbidden from telling its readers why the paper is prevented – for the first time in memory – from reporting parliament. Legal obstacles, which cannot be identified, involve proceedings, which cannot be mentioned, on behalf of a client who must remain secret.
23:59:00 <oerjan> elliott: well, at least they're allowed to tell that there _exists_ a prohibition.