00:02:04 <FreeFull> > fix (\x y z -> y : map z x) 1 (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
00:02:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
00:03:49 <FreeFull> > fix (\x y z -> y : map z (x y z)) 1 (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
00:03:50 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,3.732050807568877,3.9318516525781364,3.982889722747621,3.995717846...
00:04:25 <Bike> It's converging to a different number...
00:04:32 <kmc> constants are changing
00:04:51 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 1
00:04:52 <lambdabot> [1.0,3.0,3.732050807568877,3.9318516525781364,3.982889722747621,3.995717846...
00:04:56 <Bike> (four does not equal the square root of six)
00:05:03 <Sgeo_> >> do-monad identity-m [a: 5 b: 6] [a + b]
00:05:17 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 2.44
00:05:18 <lambdabot> [2.44,3.5620499351813306,3.887339379968884,3.9716336830072883,3.99289580334...
00:05:23 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 5
00:05:24 <lambdabot> [5.0,4.23606797749979,4.058171027271492,4.014490264873844,4.0036192914009,4...
00:05:33 <FreeFull> Sgeo_: Why wouldn't it converge to 4?
00:05:47 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) -- maybe i fucked up.
00:05:56 <Sgeo_> FreeFull, um, why are you asking me?
00:06:00 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) 2
00:06:00 <lambdabot> [2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2.0,2....
00:06:02 <Bike> typo, probably
00:06:06 <Bike> > iterate (\x -> sqrt (x + 2)) 5
00:06:07 <lambdabot> [5.0,2.6457513110645907,2.1554004989942337,2.0384799481462244,2.00959696161...
00:06:31 <Bike> yeah, my mistake.
00:06:46 <Bike> like usual *sobs all over Sgeo_*
00:07:04 <lambdabot> [0.0,2.449489742783178,2.449489742783178,2.449489742783178,2.44948974278317...
00:09:26 <oerjan> i see those iBooter spammers have got annoying again...
00:10:54 <lambdabot> [1.0,0.0,-Infinity,6.0,5.0,4.8,4.75,4.7368421052631575,4.733333333333333,4....
00:10:57 -!- jerkbot1 has joined.
00:10:59 -!- jerkbot1 has quit (Excess Flood).
00:11:03 <FreeFull> I have no idea what that converges to
00:11:32 <oerjan> i wonder if we dodged a bullet there...
00:11:44 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100
00:11:58 -!- jerkbot1 has joined.
00:12:00 -!- jerkbot1 has quit (Excess Flood).
00:12:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:12:05 <FreeFull> > (iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100)^2
00:12:15 <FreeFull> I have no idea what the significance of that number is
00:12:17 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:12:27 -!- Bike_ has quit (Client Quit).
00:12:40 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:12:46 <Bike_> 71/15, there we go. i'm good at math
00:12:51 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:12:53 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
00:13:05 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 1000
00:13:09 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 10000
00:13:12 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100000
00:13:19 <Bike> or some nasty ass fraction
00:13:29 <Sgeo_> >> do-monad list-m [a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6]] [a + b]
00:13:30 <Sgeo_> == [5 6 7 6 7 8 7 8 9]
00:13:31 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 100000 :: CReal
00:13:34 <FreeFull> Well, google does give results for the number
00:13:37 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 10000 :: CReal
00:13:45 <elliott> > iterate (\x -> 6 - 6/x) 1 !! 1000 :: CReal
00:13:53 <Bike> x = 6 - 6/x, x² = 6x - 6, x² - 6x + 6 = 0, bla bla whatever.
00:14:10 <Bike> basically yeah
00:14:13 <kmc> harsh but fair
00:14:29 <Bike> whaddya mean "probably"
00:14:59 <FreeFull> Probably that's why there are google results for it
00:15:02 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/8035336
00:15:08 <Sgeo_> Probably not the best Rebol code in existence
00:15:24 <elliott> has anyone else started caring about rebol yet
00:15:32 <Bike> i think kmc did once maybe
00:15:57 <Sgeo_> I should make that :ma not ma
00:15:59 <elliott> also what on earth does it need return for
00:17:39 <oerjan> 15:48:53: <fizzie> You should configure a key combination in your Emacs to access it.
00:17:43 <oerjan> 15:49:10: <fizzie> The key combination should be prominently listed on top of the cheat sheet, since you'll be needing it often.
00:17:53 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:18:03 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Applicative.Applicative f0)
00:19:16 <Bike> > (\a b c -> ((negate b) + sqrt(b**2 - 4*a*c)) / 2*a) 1 -6 6
00:19:22 <Bike> yeah ok whatever.
00:19:26 <Sgeo_> Wonder how badly the internals of that thing can be messed up
00:21:04 <Bike> are you serious
00:21:30 <Bike> haskell more like i have no idea what's happeningskell
00:21:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:51 <Bike> > (*) 1 -6 -- is it some parse weirdness
00:21:52 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
00:22:00 <Bike> > (*) 1 (negate 6)
00:22:12 <Bike> > (\a b c -> ((negate b) + sqrt(b**2 - 4*a*c)) / 2*a) 1 (negate 6) 6
00:22:18 <Bike> there. i have scienced
00:22:32 <Bike> i am now at the level of a seventh grader algebraist
00:25:17 <FreeFull> Bike: Now do differentation or integration
00:25:29 <Bike> ugh i already had to do that today
00:25:35 <Bike> Dsin = cos do i win
00:26:22 <FreeFull> No, you have to write it in lisp
00:26:43 <Bike> (D-DD)sin = cos + sin bam
00:27:29 <oerjan> <elliott> does anyone know why these would differ <-- extended defaulting still requires a "standard" class to be involved in the mess. typeable isn't one, but show is.
00:27:34 <shachaf> it isn't just (R -> R) -> (R -> R)
00:27:35 <Bike> It's a linear operator.
00:27:43 <Bike> So... yeah, that works.
00:27:44 <FreeFull> shachaf: Something like Expr a -> Expr a
00:28:01 <shachaf> no, that doesn't work because it could be e.g. (C -> C) -> C -> C
00:28:24 <shachaf> so D : Something a => (a -> a) -> a -> a
00:28:27 <kmc> why do i have a file named crap.sh
00:28:29 <shachaf> is (R -> R) an instance of Something?
00:28:35 <kmc> oh it's a 900 character long qemu-kvm command line
00:28:43 <shachaf> ok are functions from R to R a field
00:29:09 <Bike> Ah, don't think so, square integrable ones are though? Maybe? I'm shit at analysis
00:29:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
00:29:26 <shachaf> Bike: look i just want the derivative of taking derivatives
00:29:34 <shachaf> don't make this more difficult than it needs to be hth
00:30:04 <kmc> > undefined :: () -> IO ()
00:30:57 <Bike> haha wikipedia has a whole article on generalizing differentiation, sweet
00:31:24 <Bike> shachaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative
00:31:51 <Bike> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative
00:31:58 <shachaf> btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(abstract_algebra)
00:32:07 <elliott> shachaf: why don't you just use https everywhere or w/e
00:32:19 <shachaf> elliott: why doesn't Bike hth
00:32:25 <Bike> i told you it was a linear map! but nooooo
00:32:40 <Bike> anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalizations_of_the_derivative and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalizations_of_the_derivative
00:33:29 <Bike> I wonder if this is related to fractional calculus.
00:33:53 <shachaf> hey p-adic analysis is a thing
00:34:11 <elliott> joke: do you relate type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory, because you're pretty HoTT
00:34:22 <elliott> thank you i'll be here all week
00:34:28 <Bike> jesus fuck dude
00:35:16 <elliott> update: still laughing at my own joke
00:35:30 <Bike> update: still laughing in horror at elliott's joke
00:35:36 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:36:34 <lambdabot> ["mnoqy","nmoqy","onmqy","nomqy","omnqy","monqy","qonmy","oqnmy","onqmy","q...
00:36:43 <shachaf> imo we should add all of those to smlist.
00:36:44 <mnoqy> i bet that gopher relates type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory
00:36:58 <Bike> thanks be to lambdabot's new master, elliott
00:37:43 <elliott> update: laughing at my own joke for the second time
00:37:51 <oerjan> 19:03:07: <elliott> oerjan: hi
00:37:51 <oerjan> 19:08:02: <shachaf> hellørjan
00:37:52 <Bike> update: get a life!!!
00:38:08 <Bike> get oerjan's life i bet he's not using it!!
00:38:19 <elliott> how about i get your life (i'm hitting on you again)
00:38:39 <Bike> my life mostly involves feeling bad about social programs sorry
00:38:43 <Bike> "not very high-life"
00:38:59 <shachaf> hang on are we playing hit on the monqy
00:39:04 <elliott> my life mostly involves not participating in any social programs, hth
00:39:05 <shachaf> i keep seeing that flash ad
00:39:35 <shachaf> Bike: maybe you should move to los angeles like Fiora
00:39:42 <shachaf> then you can feel bad about socal programs
00:39:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
00:40:14 <Bike> i think fiora actually lives in para-LA
00:40:22 <kmc> i love highlife the CA
00:40:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:40:29 <Bike> highlife the CA is pretty cool
00:40:31 <Sgeo_> kmc, look at my Rebol code? >.>
00:40:34 <Bike> night and day is my favorite though
00:40:41 <shachaf> is that like a parala universe
00:40:43 <oerjan> i am starting to think win8 isn't very good at keeping connections open
00:40:57 <shachaf> elliott: You should @admin + me.
00:40:57 <elliott> los angeles is in california (CA)
00:41:10 <Fiora> what's a para-LA...
00:41:23 <kmc> para-LA, ortho-LA, meta-LA
00:41:33 <shachaf> I should make a bot that fixes words like "cooperate" to add diæreses.
00:42:11 <kmc> finally i will stop pronouncing it as "coin cidence"
00:42:58 <shachaf> the cow incidence in los angeles is unusually high today......
00:43:03 <kmc> is that so
00:43:10 <kmc> but the cow palace is in SF
00:43:58 <shachaf> kmc: is "overr̈eaction" an overr̈eaction
00:44:24 <shachaf> hey do y'all remember the secret cow level
00:44:46 <shachaf> BTW a fantasy tower defense card game I made called Mage Tower is coming out on June 28th, if you're into that stuff NERD
00:44:52 <shachaf> Bike is JohnnySmash???????
00:45:19 <Bike> am i "the person who calls people nerds"
00:45:22 <shachaf> wow that ∶ was disappointing
00:45:35 <shachaf> Bike: yes and it's kind of rude
00:45:46 <Bike> nerds are kind of rude
00:46:11 <Fiora> bike you're a nerd :<
00:46:15 <shachaf> calling people names considered harmful
00:46:39 <elliott> i agree w/ Fiora and disagree w/ Bike (general statement)
00:46:39 <Bike> Fiora: common misconception, ,i'm actually two nerds wearing a trenchcoat (it has like /nine/ pocket protectors)
00:46:46 <shachaf> also: nouns considered harmfulest, and adjectives considered harmfuler
00:46:53 <shachaf> and verbs considered the least harmful
00:47:00 <shachaf> this is my philosophy on saying things about people
00:47:09 <oerjan> Bike: is that enough protectors for two nerds
00:47:12 <Bike> why you gotta nerd so hard, shachaf
00:47:14 <Fiora> Bike: are those two very small nerds?
00:47:28 <Bike> Fiora: no i'm like eleven feet tall total
00:47:39 <elliott> turns out Fiora is actually half of a nerd wearing a quarter of a trenchcoat
00:47:40 <Fiora> bike is actually a Blame character
00:48:04 <Fiora> for one I'm not wearing a trenchcoat
00:48:12 <Bike> hey kid want some of this *opens trenchcoat* *dozens of trenchcoats fall to the ground*
00:48:32 <elliott> Bike: i'm actually trenchcoats all the way down
00:48:44 <Bike> > fix trenchcoat
00:48:56 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_coats_in_popular_culture
00:49:34 <Fiora> 82 degrees is a little warm for that kind of clothing, I think
00:49:43 <lambdabot> http://www.goodcooking.com/conversions/temp.htm
00:49:43 <lambdabot> Title: Fahrenheit to Celsius Conversions
00:49:58 <shachaf> that's a little hot for just about any kind of clothing
00:50:07 <Fiora> though, it's only 24 C right now and I'm inside and it's probably 20 here
00:50:44 <Fiora> shachaf: later in the summer it can get up to 36-39C sometimes
00:50:47 <Fiora> those are days I go to work early
00:50:50 <Fiora> and come home late
00:51:10 <kmc> you're in LA area with no air conditioning?? condolences
00:51:17 <Fiora> no way of course we have AC
00:51:30 <Fiora> but I walk to/from work
00:51:41 <Fiora> so I can't, like, /totally/ pretend the weather doesn't exist
00:51:42 <kmc> i lived on the top floor of a dorm with no AC, in a hall known as "Hell" for reasons which should be obvious
00:51:43 <shachaf> Fiora: have you considered that your emplyer is using a weather control machine to make you work long hours
00:52:09 <Fiora> my first year I had to have a window unit, it worked okay though
00:52:19 <Fiora> though, the first week of school, it reached ~43 C
00:52:25 <Fiora> which was like unusual even for here
00:52:34 <kmc> yes that is absurd
00:52:37 <elliott> can humans even survive at those temperatures
00:52:37 <Fiora> and I remember all the faculty were like "I'm sorry frosh ;_; it is not normally like this"
00:52:42 <shachaf> hmm the record high temperature recorded in tel aviv was in may
00:52:45 <elliott> pretty sure if it ever reached 35 C i would become a liquid
00:52:48 <kmc> one time we gave all the prefrosh food poisoning!
00:52:54 <kmc> at prefrosh weekend
00:53:01 <kmc> the yield rate was unusually low that year
00:53:01 <Fiora> it never reached 43C the rest of my 4 years there, I think
00:53:17 <Fiora> it was literally just for the first week frosh were there. it was like, even the weather hates frosh
00:53:24 <shachaf> elliott: Cats actually do turn liquid around that temperature.
00:53:34 <shachaf> I have witnessed cats dripping off bookshelves and such.
00:53:39 <kmc> shachaf: making physics fun
00:53:42 <Fiora> shachaf: http://24.media.tumblr.com/af3987d0a104ea6ba65d6c1a04b5919d/tumblr_mgsrybJ49R1r2dft2o1_500.jpg
00:54:13 <shachaf> Their melting point is somewhere above room temperature.
00:54:46 <Fiora> I am seriously bad at heat though, I can't stand anything over um like 26C
00:54:54 <shachaf> Fiora: why are you in los angeles
00:55:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:55:11 <Fiora> I'm near the coast! it's normally really cool here actually
00:55:21 <Fiora> like it's usually no more than like 20-25C most of the year, even the summer
00:55:24 <shachaf> maybe move to san francisco
00:55:29 <Fiora> this is kind of where I got a job >_<
00:57:22 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:00:18 <shachaf> Fiora: imo get a job in san francisco
01:00:31 -!- Bike has joined.
01:00:31 <shachaf> all the cool people like kmc are doing it
01:01:52 <Fiora> I... I don't think that's so easy...
01:02:19 <kmc> you know lots of things
01:02:22 <kmc> 'hella things' as they say in sf
01:02:31 <kmc> but, maybe you like your current job! that is fine too
01:02:54 <Fiora> I have like no web programming skills, I'm terribly anxious at interviews, and I'm not really a great programmer or anything compared to like the silicon valley people
01:03:00 <elliott> i hate all my current jobs. i also love all my current jobs
01:03:15 <elliott> also, all of my current jobs are the same job, but no two of them are the smae.
01:03:20 <Fiora> and I don't think I could keep to a startup schedule
01:03:25 <Bike> you shouldn't abuse quantification motherfucker
01:03:47 <elliott> also, for all of my current jobs, 2 + 2 = 5
01:03:54 <Bike> once i develop my ant army i'll just give you a pension fiora
01:04:06 <kmc> most of the silicon valley people are not very good programmers
01:04:09 <shachaf> the joke is that elliott has no current jobs
01:04:15 <elliott> thank you shachaf, that was indeed the joke
01:04:16 <kmc> certainly most of them couldn't write optimized SSE assembly code like woah
01:04:29 <shachaf> not all companies in sf/sv are startups
01:04:31 <Bike> Fiora: yeah, i'm gonna conquer the caucasus.
01:04:31 <elliott> i would say web programming skills are generally a downside to finding a non-awful programming job
01:04:41 <elliott> this has applied to all the programming jobs i have had (hint: the joke is that this set is also empty)
01:04:54 <kmc> they plug together existing open source projects in boring ways to make billion dollar products that have little/no interesting tech
01:04:56 <Bike> you're a leech elliott a leach!
01:04:58 <Fiora> I'm also really bad at dealing with people in-person and I don't really feel like I'd fit in (at least definitely not better than now...)
01:05:08 <kmc> so yes stay away from web startups, but don't feel inferior to them
01:05:18 <Fiora> also geez what kind of cool startup wants some person with ancient skills like that :p
01:05:29 <kmc> they have an awful shitty cult online of making people feel inferior to them
01:05:32 <kmc> it's the worst
01:05:33 <Bike> the computing world is scary
01:05:40 <kmc> yes ancient skills like programming for the Intel chip that came out LAST WEEK >_<
01:05:50 <Bike> that's like four years in intel time
01:06:21 <kmc> it's true that companies with interesting tech are harder to find than web startups
01:06:28 <Fiora> but nobody really cares about assembly stuff anymore... like they're all talking about html and css and rails and go and rust and racket and
01:06:35 <kmc> you can swing a dead cat and find a web startup
01:06:35 <Fiora> and like a million other things I know nothing about
01:06:45 <shachaf> Fiora: do you not deal with people in person now
01:07:06 <Fiora> I know one of the few remaining places that has assembly up the wazoo is game development (?) but oh gosh no that industry no no no no no
01:07:09 <Bike> i can think of a cool startup. that's kind of weird.
01:07:13 <Bike> (it's not a web startup)
01:07:18 <shachaf> no don't work in game development
01:07:19 <Fiora> shachaf: I kind of avoid it as much as possible
01:07:28 <shachaf> Fiora: what is your job anyway
01:07:31 <shachaf> was that one of the secret things
01:07:39 <Bike> her job is avoiding talking about her job
01:07:40 <Fiora> I work at a software company in orange county
01:07:47 <Bike> pretty well paying, i hear
01:08:15 <Fiora> it's not that amazing really I just have nothing to spend the money on
01:08:18 <elliott> low-level assembly optimisation is till really important, it's just not fashionable. but also half the fashionable things are awful anyway, so fashionability doesn't really matter
01:08:31 <Fiora> and geez I don't only do that. like I program C too and I struggle horribly at C++
01:08:33 <kmc> imo it's better to have an obscure skill than a common, fashionable one
01:08:38 <shachaf> Fiora: I did some SSE optimization at a startup in SV once!
01:08:48 <shachaf> And I didn't even know anything about it before I started.
01:08:50 <kmc> (unless it is really super obscure)
01:08:54 <FreeFull> Most things don't need low-level optimisation
01:09:05 <elliott> i can always rely on FreeFull for the tautologies
01:09:05 <shachaf> (I still don't know much about it. But I was reasonably successful in the thing I was doing!)
01:09:12 <kmc> right, and most programmers can't do low-level optimisation, which means that the ones who can will get paid a lot
01:09:26 <Bike> and that's why fiora has enough money to finance her rap career
01:09:46 <Fiora> I... really maybe it's easier if you can like, "market your skills" or something?
01:09:56 <elliott> Fiora: i mean your low-level skills are probably roughly a billion times more employable than my functional programming skills :V
01:10:02 <shachaf> Isn't that supposed to finance itself?
01:10:04 <elliott> there are like 10 haskell jobs
01:10:15 <shachaf> more like 10.............hundred
01:10:36 <Fiora> but as bike knows from the other day that (combined with well, the vast gap in competence), that kind of thing is the difference between me and someone like 0xabad1dea
01:11:17 <shachaf> because i came up with that hexadecimal string all on my own and then i looked it up and it was someone's username
01:11:30 <Fiora> (context: a week or few ago I finally stumbled upon her page and was like /oh my gosh there is someone else who tries to do the whole "let's combine girliness and total assembly geekery" thing/
01:11:47 <Fiora> and then I quickly discovered "oh my gosh I am so completely, vastly, categorically inferior to this person")
01:12:01 <shachaf> Fiora: you say that about everybody
01:12:09 <shachaf> so imo don't listen to yourself hth
01:12:10 <kmc> itt: fuck impostor syndrome
01:12:12 <Koen_> and then you realized it was actually a page you wrote
01:12:40 <Bike> impostor syndrome ;_;
01:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: saddest personal realisation from the whole prism affair: libertarians have soured me to anti-authoritarianism
01:12:41 <kmc> not to be like "this is you" but i read this article today https://medium.com/tech-talk/bdae04e46ec5
01:12:47 <Fiora> it's kind of hard to not listen to yourself
01:13:01 <Bike> yeah, you get used to it though
01:13:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :( i may have the same realization just now
01:13:13 <Bike> especially if you get a psychiatrist or whatever (NOT RELEVANT TO FIORA WARNING)
01:13:39 <Bike> and yeah i had that same feeling about libertarians, luckily i'm annoyed at maoists now instead
01:13:40 <kmc> I guess it is really important to distinguish "against current authorities" from "against the existence of any authorities in any form"
01:13:45 <shachaf> Fiora: imo listen to Bike instead
01:14:18 <Bike> kmc's article seems pretty good
01:14:34 <Bike> "In my head I held a definition of a good programmer, and I didn’t fit it. My repertoire of keyboard shortcuts was relatively pathetic. I was not a fount of esoteric details of various programming languages." hehhhhh i know that feeling
01:14:43 <elliott> instead of listening to myself i listen to Bike
01:15:16 <elliott> kmc: i don't think that's necessarily the distinction you need to put hating libertarians in a different category
01:15:20 <kmc> Fiora: i can tell you as someone who has interviewed a lot of programmers that if I saw http://fiorasm.tumblr.com/ i would be like "we must talk to this person now"
01:15:30 <elliott> like, non-ancap anarchists aren't the same thing as libertarians
01:15:35 <Fiora> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/pQ6RWVf.png this is how I feel after glancing at her chart
01:15:49 <kmc> not just because you know SSE minutae but because you clearly can think, refine ideas, get them working, and then explain them
01:16:16 <kmc> I guess I would say that even a tiny overlap between "what you know" and "things that matter" is enough for a fulfilling career
01:16:30 <kmc> i mean obviously, nobody knows more than a tiny fraction of things
01:16:34 <kmc> thus is the modern world
01:17:07 <Fiora> I guess, it's more like, "oh yay my wonderful autistic brain has collected a vast quantity of useless information, so it looks like I ~know things~"
01:17:20 <Bike> man i have the same feeling and i'm allistic
01:17:27 <Bike> "i'm not smart, i just read a lot"
01:17:32 * pikhq follows up with Google recruiter
01:17:36 <kmc> god damn impostor syndrome
01:17:37 <Fiora> "i'm not smart, i just know a ton of useless trivia"
01:17:45 <kmc> this is one of the reasons why I hate Hacker News and kin so much
01:17:49 <Fiora> also with the imposter syndrome there's like
01:17:51 <kmc> they argue all the time about who's a Real Programmer
01:17:59 <Bike> Fiora: well do you think i'm smart
01:18:14 <elliott> kmc: the answer is i'm a real programmer and nobody else is, hope this helps
01:18:20 <elliott> also, i'm a real person and nobody else is. solipsism life
01:18:22 <Fiora> "okay, I accept that I'm good at assembly, I accept that I'm actually really good at this stuff, but I feel like I'm awful at everything outside of a super super narrow sphere, and when I try to venture out of it, I'm not completely incapable, but I feel really crappy"
01:18:26 <Fiora> *really crappy at it
01:19:03 <kmc> learning = failing
01:19:07 <kmc> repeatedly
01:19:14 <Bike> well uh, i guess i'd say there are ways to acknowledge that you're feeling something other than saying "this feeling reflects reality"
01:19:17 <kmc> it's tough
01:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, that article was a bit frustrating because i'm probably more familiar with the slightly different brand of impostor syndrome you get in maths
01:19:27 <Fiora> that's a really good article though... thanks
01:19:31 <kmc> i don't have any sage advice on how to get past the "failing repeatedly" stage of learning
01:19:49 <shachaf> kmc: fortunately failing repeatedly is a p. good way to get past it
01:19:58 <kmc> is it, though
01:20:12 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: interesting, what's the key difference do you think
01:20:21 <pikhq> The imposter syndrome thing really does suck.
01:20:29 <pikhq> Especially when combined with depression.
01:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> well it seems like in computing you're comparing yourself more to this abstract image of The Real Programmer
01:20:49 <shachaf> hey kmc did i ever mention you should read those books by keith johnstone
01:20:54 <kmc> i think so
01:21:01 <shachaf> _Impro_ and also _Impro For Storytellers_
01:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> whereas with maths you have all these big legendary figures and are constantly comparing yourself to them
01:21:37 <kmc> we have those in programming too, although the lists of people are often hilariously weird
01:21:43 <Fiora> it's like, whenever I venture out of my little bubble, I find myself endlessly asking questions of people trying to figure out a codebase or something
01:21:48 <Fiora> and I feel like I'm contributing nearly nothing at all
01:21:55 <Fiora> while they go and do their whole thing without constantly asking questions of everyone else
01:21:56 <kmc> like on HN i saw Mark Zuckerberg and ESR in the same list as Ken Thompson and Donald Knuth
01:21:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i think in programming it's probably not as... codified? and mythic
01:21:59 <Fiora> and they just figure it out
01:22:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: fair
01:22:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i constantly compare myself to conor mcbride, hth
01:22:31 <kmc> also maths is probably even worse than programming as far as the "you will do your best work before the age of 30"
01:22:36 <kmc> which is scary
01:22:42 <shachaf> I,I i constantly compare myself to conor mcbride and find myself inferior
01:22:46 <elliott> the comparisons go like this: am I as good as conor mcbride yet -> haha no -> welp
01:22:50 <shachaf> (That's because Conor McBride is the best.)
01:22:57 <kmc> elliott: please express this as a flowchart
01:23:04 <elliott> shachaf: you could say the comparison is... constant
01:23:08 <elliott> because it always has the same result, see
01:23:31 <shachaf> elliott: is the joke that "constantly" means "all the time" and also "always has the same result (like a constant function)" and they're the same word
01:23:38 <shachaf> i think that might be the joke but just clarifying
01:23:38 <Fiora> " I felt saying something stupid would be representative of my gender" this -feeling-
01:23:39 <kmc> btw i too have these insecurities
01:24:08 <kmc> for me it's largely about the fact that I can make all these cute little toy demos of whatever, but I'm less sure that I can work productively on something big and important
01:24:10 <Fiora> (also when playing games: oh gosh you can't be bad at this game fiora or else you're going to uphold stereotypes!!!!! no brain shut up shut up shut up shut up oops I died)
01:24:52 <shachaf> Fiora: i'm p. bad at asking questions about things and imo asking questions should be encouraged
01:25:36 <kmc> like I'm reasonably sure that I know more technical stuff than the average web startup person but I think/worry that the average web startup person is better at Getting Shit Done and, like, shipping working code
01:25:59 <Fiora> yeah but like... I only ask them because I literally have no idea what to do next and I'm lost and don't get things
01:26:07 <Fiora> and the alternative is sitting there doing nothing until my boss asks what I'm doing
01:26:11 <elliott> kmc: half of your blog posts involve python so i can assure you you are not as uselessly perfectionist as me
01:26:17 <Fiora> also because asking questions over skype is easier than in person
01:26:19 <kmc> all your blog posts are in @
01:26:38 <elliott> kmc: i compromise to haskell on a good day
01:26:49 <shachaf> Fiora: Understanding a big codebase properly always takes time as far as I know.
01:27:22 <Fiora> yeah but like I feel like it never gets any better, and everyone else figures it out
01:28:10 <shachaf> The other half of this syndrome thing is assuming that other people have things figured out.
01:28:41 <kmc> shachaf: do you remember being a kid and thinking that adults know what they're doing
01:28:57 <shachaf> kmc: and now i'm old and i know what i'm doing!!!!!!!
01:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> did i link that terrifying ronson article that demonstrates that the cia have no idea what they're doing
01:32:20 <shachaf> imo finding out that particular people who you thought you knew what they were doing have no idea what they're doing is a p. good experience
01:33:32 <Fiora> sorry, I really shouldn't dump all this here like this anyways
01:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not like you're swamping anything very worthwhile
01:34:13 <shachaf> (it's traditional to get drunk first i think but not obligatory)
01:34:16 <Bike> "yeah let's get back to talking about brainfuck"
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01:34:50 <Bike> anyway i wanted to say: I probably have a skewed perspective on this since i'm literally mentally unsound and my thinking is quite often demonstratably out of tune with reality
01:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_ said he was making a brainfuck equivalent in @tell
01:34:53 <Bike> and that's that
01:35:13 <elliott> Bike: that is because you are a bicycle
01:35:14 <Fiora> I don't know if I'm mentally unsound, really
01:35:24 <Bike> yeah i don't mean that as pertaining to you
01:35:24 <elliott> they were not meant to function in human society
01:35:32 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, >.>
01:35:39 <kmc> a high powered mutant of some kind never intended for mass production
01:35:44 <Fiora> I just mean I've never really checked
01:35:48 <Bike> elliott: fuck you man i'll do whatever i fucking well please *runs you over w/ my tires*
01:35:51 <Fiora> though I know I'm probably an anxious autistic wreck so
01:35:51 <Sgeo_> Technically it's equivalent to a subset of BF
01:35:59 <elliott> Bike: you're not, like... a car
01:35:59 <Bike> Fiora: i didn't mean to imply you were insane sorry
01:36:02 <elliott> bicycle wheels are not scary
01:36:14 <Bike> elliott: yeah it's... not that effective... but bike power
01:36:16 <Bike> Fiora: ok cool
01:37:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan knows everything <-- * swat -----###
01:37:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: stop that
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01:43:18 <pikhq> Fiora: Anxious autistic wreck? That's fun times!
01:44:04 <shachaf> i have a secret weapon against being unhappy which is that i tend to be optimistic about things all the time
01:44:25 <elliott> have you noticed that everything is terrible and nothing good is happening though
01:44:31 <elliott> i tend to notice that part
01:44:52 <shachaf> from my perspective lots of good things are happening hth
01:44:59 <shachaf> also lots of terrible things
01:45:14 <shachaf> even when everything is terrible i'm still optimistic
01:45:23 <shachaf> does that make me mentally unsound.............
01:47:42 <HackEgo> 2011-07-14.txt:07:43:47: <elliott> meta-turing-complete, too!
01:48:05 <Bike> blowing my mind
01:48:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17625
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01:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe i just came up with the pun myself and i was so disgusted with myself i projected its creation onto oerjan
01:49:15 <oerjan> `pastlogs meta.*turing
01:49:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
01:49:22 <oerjan> `pastelogs meta.*turing
01:49:22 <Bike> what if it was actually Metang
01:49:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11165
01:49:42 <kmc> "So, how 'bout them Turing machines, eh? Never know when they're gonna stop."
01:50:04 <Bike> is that from a sitcom about computer scientists
01:50:43 <kmc> in that it's from my life
01:50:58 <HackEgo> 70) <Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love \ 201) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid \ 362) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 363) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJA
01:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i was in the pub with a postgrad and someone doing some sort of research work and they both said they loved the big bang theory
01:51:45 <Bike> did you get in a bar fight
01:51:58 <shachaf> Bike: is that something to do with lawyers
01:51:59 <kmc> i hear it got better or something
01:52:10 <shachaf> hm i think they call it a lawsuit
01:52:13 <Sgeo_> Is mayonnaise an instrument?
01:52:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, my gf loves The Big Bang Theory
01:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (i can't tell because i think all i know about the women in your life is from anecdotes of them being stupid)
01:53:12 <shachaf> Is _The Big Bang Theory_ as bad as it sounds by reading about it on IRC?
01:53:15 <elliott> i'm the one that did that stupid thing
01:53:18 <kmc> shachaf: it's pretty bad
01:53:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was with a space hth
01:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, what did they add actual characters to it or something
01:53:45 <kmc> i watched a fair amount of the show and laughed and then one day I realized I hated myself for it and was wasting my life
01:53:56 <shachaf> hey kmc you should read that book hth
01:54:06 <shachaf> maybe you can read my copy when you come to sf
01:54:09 <kmc> say what you will about Chuck Lorre but he is pretty good at his job
01:54:13 <elliott> hey shachaf you should read the view from the left hth
01:54:20 <Sgeo_> kmc, so, finding something enjoyable is wasting your life?
01:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, yes e.g. if that thing is masturbating or something
01:54:58 <elliott> how do i get an email address
01:55:27 <shachaf> Electronic mail? That sounds dangerous.
01:55:59 <shachaf> `pastelogs shachaf.*sounds dangerous
01:56:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3017
01:56:32 <kmc> i probably shouldn't actually make claims about wasting one's life
01:56:33 <elliott> apparently ehird@gmail.com is too short to get
01:56:33 <shachaf> maybe i should quit saying that
01:56:37 <elliott> i bet you used to be able to get ones that short
01:56:52 <kmc> let me restrict my claim to the idea that there is plenty of pop culture media that doesn't make me hate myself and I should watch that instead
01:56:53 <Sgeo_> I tried signing up for sgeo@gmail.com, it was too short
01:57:05 <elliott> which one did you try to get
01:57:17 <shachaf> I remember people were complaining.
01:57:19 <Sgeo_> sgeoster@gmail.com worked fine
01:57:33 <elliott> i think i own elliott.hird@gmail.com from roughly five billion years ago
01:57:36 <elliott> maybe i could repurpose that
01:57:38 <elliott> but it's kind of long and ugh
01:57:48 <Bike> are you signing up for EVE Online
01:58:02 <shachaf> How about penguin.of.the.gods
01:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> does elliott need a serious email address or something
01:58:39 <shachaf> Gmail is different. Here's what you need to know.
01:58:54 <shachaf> (that date is in americanese btw)
01:59:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how about phantomhoover@gmail.com
01:59:17 <shachaf> remember how it was announced on mar 31
01:59:25 <shachaf> and no one believed that you would actually get 1gb
01:59:54 <Bike> haha that was awesome
02:00:10 <elliott> guys i was 8 when gmail launched
02:00:20 <Sgeo_> ...apparently "is mayonnaise an instrument" comes from Spongebob
02:00:21 <Bike> yeah well you learned haskell when you like negative three
02:00:31 <Sgeo_> I was just taking it off the tags of a reddit blogpost
02:00:40 <shachaf> elliott and I joined #haskell within a week of each other.
02:01:17 <Bike> and what a week it was
02:02:30 <shachaf> elliott: how about: elliott.t.hird
02:02:45 <Bike> is your middle name "t"
02:03:00 <elliott> hey are google apps things still awful
02:03:02 <shachaf> outdo elliottt at his own game
02:03:03 <Bike> elliott: OVERRULED
02:03:07 <elliott> like do they still get old versions of everything
02:03:18 <shachaf> I don't have a middle name!
02:03:24 <shachaf> Middle names are the devil.
02:03:26 <elliott> also is there any email service that doesn't give my emails to the NSA
02:03:29 <Bike> yeah but you're likwe welsh shachaf
02:03:34 <elliott> or do i have to run qmail if i want e.g. basic privacy
02:03:53 <shachaf> elliott: you don't get basic privacy sorry
02:04:30 <shachaf> elliott: how about sargetron@gmail.com
02:04:38 <Bike> what's qmail do to be secure
02:04:46 <Bike> because it's not like the NSA's even trying to read content
02:05:08 <Bike> oh man wikipedia has Qmail#Controversy
02:05:10 <Bike> i'm pumped for this.
02:05:36 <elliott> i just picked qmail out of a hat btw
02:05:43 <shachaf> twist: the hat only had qmail in it
02:05:53 <Bike> well i mean i don't know what djb's doing
02:06:00 <shachaf> the question is where did you pull the hat out of......
02:06:38 <Bike> lol someone's ddosing github apparently
02:07:03 <Bike> https://status.github.com/
02:07:36 <Bike> who the hell knows
02:07:38 <kmc> To Be A Douche
02:08:56 <shachaf> zomg stat us dot github dot com
02:09:17 <kmc> httpsfs hth
02:10:32 <kmc> Sgeo_: I think there's a lot more to enjoying comedy than just whether you are laughing in the moment
02:10:55 <Sgeo_> kmc, hmm.. such as?
02:11:12 <kmc> it's like saying that food is enjoyable if it makes you not hungry anymore
02:11:33 <Bike> that reminds me of the most depressing thing i've heard in the last week
02:11:38 <kmc> laughter is a basic automatic response and that's why the cheap tricks of the mainstream sitcom are so effective
02:11:44 <shachaf> I think people tend to "enjoy" bad comedy as long as they're laughing, though. Much more than bad instances of other, uh, genres.
02:11:45 <kmc> Bike: way to sell your next statement
02:12:00 <kmc> Sgeo_: whether it's clever, whether it makes me think, whether I think about it later and quote it to friends and such
02:12:01 <Bike> well i don't really need to actually say the thing
02:12:03 <shachaf> kmc: Also you should read what _Impro_ says about comedy!
02:12:30 <shachaf> Also about teaching, and status/interaction, and creativity/spontaneity, and storytelling, and other things.
02:13:56 <kmc> i don't mean to imply that 'good' comedy must be complicated and highbrow
02:14:14 <kmc> or that laughter isn't necessary -- just that it's not sufficient
02:14:52 <kmc> the latest season of Community had a lot of attempts at fancy cleverness that just... weren't funny
02:15:12 <kmc> but now they are bringing back the original creater / showrunner, who they fired after season 3
02:15:30 <kmc> which is roughly unprecedented in the history of television
02:15:41 <kmc> yes http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/arts/television/dan-harmon-will-return-to-nbcs-community.html?_r=0
02:16:00 <shachaf> hey kmc why do i still look at news.ycombinator.com
02:16:30 <shachaf> hm good points, both of you
02:16:32 <kmc> now we will see whether the 4th season drop in quality was really caused by his departure
02:16:39 <shachaf> what's a good thing to look at
02:16:46 <kmc> although I think people wouldn't have been nearly as harsh if they hadn't known about that
02:16:49 <kmc> shachaf: twitter
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02:17:33 <elliott> 03:11:12 <kmc> it's like saying that food is enjoyable if it makes you not hungry anymore
02:17:42 <elliott> kmc: i hope you realise how totally ineffective this argument is to sgeo...
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02:17:54 <kmc> there were definitely huge differences in quality in the first 3 seasons as well
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02:17:57 <kmc> elliott: heh
02:18:08 <shachaf> Maybe it's more like saying that food is enjoyable if it's incredibly sweet or something.
02:18:17 <shachaf> Well, that's not really any good an analogy.
02:18:28 <Bike> random thought: i'd like the average math paper a lot more if whenever they constructed some definition they'd include a relatively simple thing or two that isn't in the definition
02:18:32 <Bike> there i said a thing.
02:18:49 <kmc> you mean an example of what doesn't satisfy the axioms?
02:18:51 <elliott> recently i saw a link to https://lobste.rs, i don't know if it is better or worse than HN/proggit
02:18:58 <kmc> elliott: omg me too
02:19:03 <elliott> maybe https://lobste.rs/s/bkeYe9/about_lobsters is a more useful link
02:19:16 <Bike> kmc: yeah. in this case i'm wondering if lambert fits as an elementary function or not.
02:19:23 <Bike> maybe i'm just: bad at math
02:19:52 <Bike> I mean i have the definition "I should be able to derive it right"
02:20:40 <Phantom_Hoover> proving a function to be non-elementary sounds... hard
02:20:41 <kmc> elliott: interesting
02:20:46 <Bike> yeah there's that too
02:20:59 <elliott> it seems like it does nothing to combat the fundamental issue of it will be shitty in a few years
02:21:09 <Bike> i guess proving something doesn't fit a definition is probably harder than proving it does
02:21:14 <Bike> if there's no obvious anti-definition anyway
02:21:14 <kmc> disappointed that they don't say anything about how they will prevent pervasive sexism and other HN social problems
02:21:20 <kmc> technical solutions yaaaaay
02:21:28 <Bike> let alone making up your own not-defined-thingie
02:21:43 <Bike> "The Lambert W relation cannot be expressed in terms of elementary functions. " well, ok, wikipedia to the rescue i guess.
02:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> it could well be that there's just no illuminating proof of that though
02:22:15 <Bike> i like how you have to express the derivatives and antiderivatives of this thing in terms of itself though
02:22:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well it's also sort of the point of the paper i'm reading (showing erf isn't elementary) sooooo maybe i should just keep reading.
02:22:41 <shachaf> "elementary functions" is kind of arbitrary. :-(
02:22:57 <Bike> oh, the paper has its own rigid definition of course.
02:23:46 <Fiora> kmc: the front page of that site looks... almost exactly the same as HN's o_O
02:23:48 <Fiora> like, the same stories
02:23:49 <elliott> kmc: where you email me a bunch of links every week
02:23:55 <elliott> and maybe other people too
02:24:09 <kmc> elliott: it's called https://twitter.com/miuaf hth
02:24:30 <elliott> https://lobste.rs/t/haskell clearly terrible
02:24:46 <Bike> clever and informative
02:25:01 <Bike> what's on hn these days anyway (thanks fiora for letting me check this thing instead of hn to learn this)
02:25:27 <kmc> 7 Agile Node.js Startup Tricks That Prove Men Are Superior
02:25:28 <elliott> Bike: what are you checking/learning
02:25:36 <Fiora> I think right now it's like 90% discussions about PRISM?
02:25:39 <elliott> kmc: 5 Mains That Aren't Usually Functions
02:25:43 <Fiora> and 10% about apple or something
02:25:57 <Bike> did apple do something
02:26:01 <kmc> released some products
02:26:04 <elliott> can anyone helps me think of 3 more
02:26:05 <kmc> naturally it's the CNN front page story
02:26:11 <kmc> elliott: haskell main!!!!!!!!
02:26:13 <elliott> Bike: they gave up on cats
02:26:18 <elliott> kmc: ok that can be number 5
02:26:23 <Fiora> is it just me or like
02:26:32 <Fiora> whenever I see WWDC, I think "what would jesus do" but like with the different last two words
02:26:36 <Bike> of lions and stuff
02:26:37 <kmc> me too Fiora
02:26:51 <pikhq> Everyone knows the new iPhone Pi is the most important thing since the cure for cancer.
02:27:05 <elliott> we just need one more and we can post it to cracked
02:27:36 <Bike> oh ph's is better and even worse a mispronounciantion
02:27:41 <Bike> wow awesome spelling
02:28:13 <elliott> 03:26:50 <elliott> 1. mains power
02:28:23 <elliott> "Mozilla, Reddit, 4Chan join coalition of 86 groups asking Congress to end NSA surveillance"
02:28:28 <elliott> well if 4chan asked for it...
02:28:37 * Fiora goes back to playing more class of heroes
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02:28:53 <kmc> set of heroes
02:29:02 <elliott> set of all heroes that do not contain themselves
02:29:08 <tswett> Category of small heroes.
02:29:19 <elliott> Makes me pleased to use Firefox over Chrome.
02:29:19 <elliott> Google = makes money from data collection and supports PRISM.
02:29:19 <elliott> Mozilla = open source foundation supporting Congress ending PRISM.
02:29:19 <elliott> We should all support companies and products which are against PRISM.
02:29:30 <elliott> why am i reading the comments on this article
02:29:38 <Bike> kmc: the category of Heroes
02:29:38 <kmc> i wonder if they know where mozilla's money comes from
02:29:45 <pikhq> elliott: Because you are self-injurious.
02:29:48 <Bike> Probably gnomes
02:29:52 <kmc> it's still better but....
02:30:10 <elliott> kmc: it's open source they don't need money
02:30:27 <tswett> So, have a regex: /e([ck]+s*[sc]|[ck]*xs*c?)ers*[sc]i[sz]+e/
02:30:30 <Bike> their only source of outcome is paying kmc to hack on rust
02:30:34 <elliott> kmc: is there a good email client
02:30:43 <tswett> I wonder how many words satisfying that regex have ever been used in an honest attempt to spell the word "exercise".
02:31:20 <Bike> tswett: there's infinite possible strings and people have only used a finite set of them, so obviously it's neglible.
02:31:39 <tswett> So the answer is "finitely many".
02:32:14 <pikhq> elliott: My experience suggests there is exactly one.
02:32:20 <pikhq> It is named netcat.
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02:33:49 <kmc> HELO THIS IS DOG
02:33:50 <Fiora> oh, it's just a PSP dungeon crawler game thing <.<
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02:34:36 <Bike__> radio one anti nazi mix
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02:35:18 <Bike> mars needs women
02:35:46 <pikhq> 250 EHLO DOG THIS IS SMTP
02:35:51 <Fiora> it's an electronic device ._.
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02:39:30 <oerjan> elliott: main street hth
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02:42:24 <tswett> I love the term "controlled flight into terrain".
02:43:04 <kmc> it's bad times
02:43:13 <oerjan> elliott: mayonnaise hth
02:43:18 <Bike> does that mean what it sounds like
02:43:31 <tswett> A rather low-key term for a rather undesirable event.
02:44:22 <elliott> Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) describes an accident in which an airworthy aircraft, under pilot control, is unintentionally flown into the ground, a mountain, water, or an obstacle.
02:44:29 <elliott> i was thinking it might be only for intentional cases
02:44:59 <Bike> According to this paper, h such that h(z)⁵cos(log(z)) + h(z)³tan(exp(z) + sin⁻¹(z)) + 7 = 0 is an elementary function in some domains. That's pretty cool.
02:47:11 <Bike> oh damn, you're right.
02:48:54 <tswett> Bike: what does "in some domains" mean here?
02:50:12 <Bike> oh, just local soltions to that
02:50:54 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_logic help
02:55:14 <tswett> That's an interesting word: "castrophony"
02:55:50 <tswett> I assume it's a blend of "catastrophe" and "cacophony".
03:04:37 <Bike> You should ask zzo about linear logic.
03:05:51 <tswett> zzo: hey, would you mind helping me with linear logic once you get back? It seems like there ought to be some good metaphor for it.
03:06:16 <shachaf> kmc: You know the thing where you apt-get install a program and then it gets marked as automatically installed without asking and you get annoyed?
03:09:19 <kmc> no i don't
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03:18:11 <oerjan> this is getting annoying :(
03:18:29 <ion> shachaf: Huh. Never happened to me.
03:21:42 <oerjan> i am wondering if this is the same kind of disconnection which i used to have on my old laptop, months back (but haven't had in a while) or if this is something win8 is causing...
03:22:21 <oerjan> one thing i note is that irssi is _not_ kept alive on the other side this time. oh well.
03:23:28 <oerjan> in other news, does anyone know if there is any way in IE 10 to add minor search alternatives like esolang or wiktionary, or if you really only can add things that are in microsoft's gallery
03:24:26 <oerjan> i recall IE 8 _tried_ to send you to the gallery but had a way to get to the suggestions on the current website. now i don't see that anywhere.
03:25:14 <shachaf> kmc: when i misspeak like that sometimes i feel like a complete idiot and how could i possibly have said that thing and then i apologize a lot and so on to make sure everyone knows i'm fully aware how wrong i was
03:25:27 * oerjan managed to add wikipedia but had to change gallery to avoid getting just the norwegian one
03:25:28 <shachaf> i don't know if you're doing that but from the outside it probably seems much more minor than from the inside
03:25:32 <shachaf> or maybe not. i don't really know
03:26:04 <kmc> it's all right though
03:27:18 <Koen_> hey this "source code" film is actually really good
03:27:20 <shachaf> other things people do (but i don't so much?): attack the thing they just said, repeatedly mention how idiotic it would be to think it
03:27:48 <Koen_> and then people in the audience get upset because they were thinking it
03:29:09 <Bike> source code was pretty cool
03:36:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw i suggest switching from win8 hth
03:36:20 <elliott> i don't know what kmc is apologising for, help
03:36:24 <elliott> i don't even see an apology
03:36:55 <coppro> win8 makes no sense to me
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03:39:58 <kmc> shachaf does this thing where he talks in one channel about happenings in another channel without giving any context
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03:47:40 <shachaf> How do I ask irssi who has the most channels in common with me?
03:48:36 <shachaf> The most I can find is 10.
03:48:49 <kmc> how do i see what channels someone is in?
03:49:16 <elliott> kmc: let me introduce you to whois hth
03:49:23 <shachaf> /whois will tell you only the channels they have in common with you (unless they disable that, like ski)
03:49:42 <shachaf> But irssi keeps track of who's in what channel.
03:49:50 <elliott> copumpkin: you should make agda's universe polymorphism not awful, thanks
03:50:11 <shachaf> what about existence polymorphism
03:50:18 <shachaf> or would that be existence monomorphism
03:52:18 <shachaf> wow ski is in a lot of "p. cool" channels
03:54:06 <kmc> elliott: i whois'd you, did you see
03:57:16 <kmc> i don't know
03:57:21 <kmc> can you see when someone whois's you
03:57:31 <kmc> shachaf is trying to confuse me with bogus CTCPs
03:57:37 <kmc> i see through his knavish tricks
03:57:46 <Sgeo_> whois asks the server a question. ctcp is a message to the person
03:58:42 <kmc> no such agency
03:58:46 <shachaf> kmc isn't even responding to my ctcps
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03:59:59 <Sgeo_> I thought that was in response to me CTCPing shachaf for a second
04:02:10 <Sgeo_> If there was a notice of some sort, I should have noticed
04:04:49 <elliott> copumpkin: what did you do
04:05:16 <elliott> copumpkin: i think you will find it's still awful. tdh
04:05:37 <copumpkin> elliott: how would you improve it?
04:06:09 <elliott> copumpkin: well when i use coq i don't think about universes at all and then i complete a definition and it gives me a universe consistency error and i have to start over
04:06:19 <elliott> copumpkin: and i consider this preferable to having to think about universes every five seconds but not having problems in the end
04:20:04 <copumpkin> I'm not a fan of magic, but I also hate that it pollutes my type sigs
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04:21:24 <elliott> well, at least Coq's magic is just fairly simple constraint solving
04:23:05 <Bike> fiora, kmc: http://t.co/M0ClqSucMU this is kinda neat
04:23:59 <elliott> Bike: subscribe me to the fiora-kmc list please (i like regehr.org too) (why did you use a url shortener)
04:24:41 <Bike> because i got it off twitter, i've never even heard of regehr and know shit-all about type-punning or programming
04:26:01 <Bike> (elliott: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/959 this is kinda neat hth)
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04:31:58 <kmc> i don't understand the type pun rules re: unions
04:32:23 <kmc> i thought unions were the designated ok way to view the same bytes with different types
04:33:29 <kmc> wikipedia thinks so
04:33:40 <kmc> an expert source
04:33:47 <kmc> there should be a language whose spec is explicitly what's on wikipedia
04:37:24 <Bike> i mostly thought it was interesting that it knew memcpy that well, i guess.
04:38:01 <kmc> my friend had another point re: impostor syndrome, which is that there's a game equilibrium aspect
04:38:16 <kmc> if everyone around you is saying how bad and dumb they are, you have to say it too or else you seem arrogant (to yourself and others)
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04:39:22 <kmc> at caltech there were a lot of conversations where everyone was kind of bragging about how dumb they are and how they were failing all their classes
04:39:33 <kmc> interestingly i've heard this doesn't happen at MIT
04:42:03 <Bike> that would handily explain why grad students are mostly fucking wrecks
04:42:51 <elliott> that's just down to the wreckophilia Bike
04:43:17 <Bike> wow it took me like four whole seconds to understand wtf you just said.
04:51:52 <elliott> Bike: how many words rhyme with bike
04:53:14 <Bike> Trike, bike, [ethnic slur], psych, Mike, like
04:54:27 <elliott> you missed at least one, sorry
04:54:42 <Bike> That's the slur, hth.
04:57:27 <Bike> ther'es only one slur
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05:55:04 <HackEgo> olist 893: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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06:20:29 <kmc> is there a list of which foolists are what
06:20:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: listlist: not found
06:21:56 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
06:22:49 <shachaf> emptylist is empty. list is a list people of who've run list. makelist presumably makes a list. olist is Order of the Stick. pbflist is Perry Bible Fellowship. pbflistdeluxe is also perrybiblefellowship, but much better. slist is MS Pain Adventures. smlist is Super Mega Comics.
06:23:56 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0"): "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
06:24:01 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
06:24:35 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/:/${@:+ }$@:/' bin/emptylist
06:26:37 <shachaf> Hmm, there should be a c.b.miuaf update list.
06:26:47 <shachaf> Last update was in Dec, though...
06:27:14 <kmc> i should make some more things
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07:05:42 <kmc> is that so
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07:56:00 <shachaf> kmc: what would it take to get a unicode codepoint named after me
07:56:53 <kmc> good life goal
07:57:35 <shachaf> trying to figure out what counts
07:57:51 <shachaf> i think it has to be named after me, not just coïncide with my name
07:58:08 <shachaf> does it count if it's named after something which is named after someone
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08:22:12 <kmc> i hate it when i'm worrying about something and then I forget what specifically and it just leaves this diffuse feeling of worry that I can't even pretend to attack rationally
08:30:14 <kmc> does this happen to anyone else
08:30:37 <Taneb> I once got a feeling that I ought to be depressed
08:30:46 <Taneb> And then felt guilty for being happy
08:31:11 <kmc> that sucks
09:10:57 <shachaf> `run echo blah blah blah blah | zalgo
09:11:00 <HackEgo> bͩ͠l̖͒a̷̛h̳͞ ͫ͘b̤͟l̶̷å̛h̉͝ ̦ͪb͔ͪl̨ͭa͇̝h̶͖ ͗͟b͔̕ḷ̕a͕͝h͙͘
09:11:04 <shachaf> `run echo blah blah blah blah | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo | zalgo
09:11:09 <HackEgo> b̛̟̭̺̺͍̖͕ͯ̑͗̽̄ͩ͆͠l็̸̨̙̮̜̲̗̍͐̉̀͢͟ͅͅa̫̞̣̯̰̯̍̒̈ͯͫͤ̓̅̐͠h̟͇̰̣͒̉ͣ͗́̿ͣͫ͊ͥ̇̕ ̨̛̫̦̜̼͔̞̰̐̌͂ͫ͜͝͞b͉̪̻̫̤͕̒̃͆҉̤̬͓̘ͭ̕l̞̥̦͖̞̳̊̏ͯ͛̉̍̒͘͜͝a̵͎̱̜̭̩̤͙̿ͮ͒̍͊̐̉҉h̸̟͍͈̞͓͇̙̥̏́͒͟҉̖͝ ̴̩̹̙̙͖̺ͫ́͐́̎̂́͊̕bͣ̀̆̎͝ͅ҉͔̠
09:12:34 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
09:12:42 <HackEgo> ȁ͍i̶͙s̟͚5̷̀2̭̱3̴̗ ̒̎a͖̚t̪ͩr͎̅i̙̚q̵̗ ͩͩB̰̑i̘̭k͌͂e̤̓ ͪ͜b̨͌o͕̦i̮̹l͎̔y͕ͬ ̺̃c͙̊u͎̍t́͏ṫ̼l̳̭é͙f̱̽ȋͯs̳͛h̄̈ ̜̋eͪ͘l͙̀l̯̂ï̍ŏ͌t̢̠t̨̬ ̥ͫfͦ͡g̭͇r̩̍ẹͬp̤̈ ̱ͨḞ̮ị̢o̧̓r̤̅a̪͙ ̉͠f̰̒u͍ͪn̂͋g͋̒o͏̜t̫͕ ̑͜Hͪ͘a̾͢c̝͌ḵ̅E̛͕gͪ̈́o͔͍ ̐̎
09:12:51 <Taneb> In retrospect I should have done that in /msg
09:13:39 <lambdabot> monochrom says: in retrospect, it seems lisp designers were more interested in list processing than functional programming
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09:21:22 <Taneb> shachaf, what's the convention for +1'ing something on libraries@
09:23:16 <shachaf> I think you reply with the message "+1" or something weird like that.
09:24:21 <shachaf> if someone figured out a good solution to the problem that monad transformers are trying to solve, that would be the best thing
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10:58:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you learn lens yet
11:03:41 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
11:04:07 <FireFly> shachaf already `olist'd #893
11:05:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you understand profunctor lenslikes
11:05:22 <mnoqy> im too tired to understand anything but probably?
11:05:24 <shachaf> i don't know the laws for them :'( do you know
11:05:35 <mnoqy> i dont know their laws at least offhand
11:05:53 <shachaf> well i mean i want a compositionlike law
11:07:16 <nooodl> i remember reading what a profunctor is but then i forgot RIP
11:07:35 <nooodl> actually i think shachaf even explained it to someone once?
11:08:44 <mnoqy> "as with most things" defn of profunctors depends on who you ask
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11:09:38 <Taneb> A profunctor is simply a bifunctor that is contravariant in its first argument.
11:09:53 <mnoqy> see thats the answer you get if you ask Taneb
11:09:58 <nooodl> but covariant in its second?
11:10:10 <Taneb> shachaf, I have a hat
11:10:14 <Taneb> And some chocolate
11:10:18 <Taneb> Does that make me a pro
11:10:25 <nooodl> shachaf, oops i actually imagined this
11:10:34 <Taneb> The chocolate is in a cardboard box
11:10:40 <Taneb> The box is wearing the hat
11:12:35 <nooodl> ugh i feel like category theory but i'm being forced to do other dumb things
11:12:52 <mnoqy> try not being forced to do other dumb things
11:12:57 <mnoqy> ALT stick it to the man
11:13:12 <mnoqy> ALT get someone to do stupid dumb things for you
11:13:16 <mnoqy> ALT get someone to do category theory for you
11:14:12 <shachaf> ALT TWIST category theory is dumb things
11:14:37 <nooodl> shachaf, apparently i was thinking of you explaining CoYoneda to bike in april
11:16:36 <shachaf> what does coyoneda have to do with profunctors
11:16:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: was the twist actually good or did you mean bad twist when you said good twist
11:17:02 <mnoqy> thatd be a good twist wouldnt it
11:17:02 <shachaf> because that would be a twist of its own(meta twist?)
11:17:17 <shachaf> i never meta twist i didn't eat
11:19:13 <shachaf> i wish i was as good as mnoqy at things
11:19:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: how can i become as good as you (or better)
11:19:47 <mnoqy> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
11:20:24 <Taneb> `run echo "only ten pounds" | wisdom/otp
11:20:26 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/otp: No such file or directory
11:20:51 <Taneb> `pastelogs "Taneb..."
11:21:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29240
11:21:06 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: sponge: not found
11:21:29 <shachaf> `run echo 'cat > wisdom/otp' > wisdom/otp; chmod +x wisdom/otp
11:21:31 <Taneb> `run pastelogs "Taneb..."
11:21:34 <shachaf> `run echo "only ten pounds" | wisdom/otp
11:21:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31150
11:21:56 <Sgeo_> ...bots in AW will no longer be free
11:25:16 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Phantom_Hoover makes a very good point.
11:35:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16794
11:35:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3067
11:36:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17444
11:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 2013-04-11.txt:01:05:11: <monqy> well yes hes picky about trivialities that much is obvious. those ui concerns are real but the underlying issue is that he --sgeo..............................................
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12:10:53 <Taneb> I forgot I had contributed to that kickstarter
12:11:30 <Taneb> Girl Genius and the Rats of Mechanicsburg
12:16:16 <nooodl> yes :( (note: i have only limited experience with it)
12:16:57 <mnoqy> The comic has won five WCCA awards including 2008 Outstanding Comic, and been nominated for a Hugo Award for Best Professional Artist, an Eagle Award and twice for an Eisner Award; in 2009, 2010, and 2011 it won the Hugo Award for Best Graphic Story.
12:17:06 <mnoqy> UM it sounds like THESE PEOPLE disagree with you
12:17:25 <mnoqy> nb idk anything about this comic but its probably really bad and awful
12:18:41 <mnoqy> wow this art style is amazing. i am digging these faces.
12:23:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I enjoy it
12:23:46 <mnoqy> nooodl: whats your experience with it...youve gotta compete with an "enjoying it"
12:25:42 <mnoqy> the name is lame and the subtitle is lame too but i cant belive you dont dig the art
12:26:15 <mnoqy> i mean just look at this [latest comic] http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/strips/ggmain20130612.jpg
12:28:09 <shachaf> what is it with the comic strip style where you
12:28:18 <shachaf> bold words in almost every sentence
12:28:57 <shachaf> you know what i'm talking about right
12:29:28 <nooodl> i always thought that was there to like
12:30:04 <nooodl> but would you really stress that "NEED"? it's ridic.
12:30:11 <nooodl> so it's probably something else...
12:30:59 <nooodl> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoldInflation
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12:48:58 <ASMK568> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
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12:58:42 <ASMK879> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
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12:59:43 <nooodl> thatd be rude taking peoples' friends
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13:11:25 <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:12:10 <mnoqy> i guess the question is: you need to slap some sort of tesselation down, so what will it be
13:12:13 <mnoqy> octagons?????????????????????
13:12:24 <Taneb> I was thinking pentagons
13:13:01 <mnoqy> hm whats the optimal--what--polygon
13:13:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: triangles are the optimal polygone hth
13:13:28 <mnoqy> i've seen heptagons done before, i think
13:13:30 <shachaf> i mean in general. not talkking about tesselation
13:13:44 <mnoqy> (i think "hyperrogue" does heptagons)
13:13:58 <mnoqy> ((its a roguelike in hyperbolic plane, if u're uncultured))
13:14:29 <shachaf> i didn't know that but now i know it
13:15:50 <nooodl> p. sure everyone here is cultured now, as of that line
13:16:11 <shachaf> what if you were so uncultured to start with
13:16:15 <shachaf> you didn't even know how to read
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13:17:05 <ASMK324> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
13:17:06 -!- ASMK324 has left.
13:19:54 * itsy goes to join iBooter...
13:20:39 <mnoqy> its been a while since ive looked at it
13:20:52 <shachaf> what kind of tesseleation is that
13:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:21:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately befunge never uses diagonal adjacency afaik so that avoids some awkward problems
13:22:02 <mnoqy> ...yeah there are definitely hexagons in here with the heptagons wtf
13:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> is it this tiling: <Taneb> What would befunge look like on a hyperbolic plane
13:22:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uniform_tiling_73-t12.png
13:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H2_tiling_24i-4.png ok
13:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H2chess_24ic.png the edges in this diagram are the set of straight lines for program execution
13:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> heh, i just realised all the white/black regions in that diagram are infinity-gons
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13:38:40 <nooodl> man. what if: infinite-dimensional space, R^\infty, points are functions N -> R
13:38:53 <nooodl> this probably already exists??? it's so boring
13:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> note that you're still only able to use a countable subspace
13:39:35 <mnoqy> the obvious one is only allow finitely supported functions
13:40:55 <nooodl> doesn't every total function N -> R define a point + aren't functions N -> R uncountable
13:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but you can only specify a countable number of those functions
13:41:44 <mnoqy> oh by "define a point" you mean...yeah
13:42:21 <nooodl> (you mean, it'd be countable in the same way that the subset of R you can "use" is countable, right)
13:43:24 <nooodl> anyway the neat thing is you get points that are infinitely far from the origin, but are finite in all dimensions, like (1,1,1,1,...)
13:44:16 <nooodl> Q: what would the equation for a line be
13:44:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:44:56 <mnoqy> a "line" in a vector spac is just a 1-dimensional subspace
13:45:30 <mnoqy> \{f : f(x) = 0 for all x > 0\}
13:45:57 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, p + lv, where p and v are pretty much arbitrary vectors
13:46:05 <mnoqy> 06:43:24 <nooodl> anyway the neat thing is you get points that are infinitely far from the origin, but are finite in all dimensions, like (1,1,1,1,...)
13:46:14 <mnoqy> not if you only allow finitely supported functions!!!
13:46:22 <mnoqy> (imo a sane restriction)
13:47:05 <mnoqy> oh wow i just noticed i put \'s on my { and }
13:47:11 <mnoqy> i almost wrote \forall too
13:47:17 <mnoqy> to what have i come
13:47:20 <nooodl> also neat: there are non-finitely supported functions (btw thanks for teaching me this words) with a finite distance to the origin!!
13:47:41 <nooodl> like f(x) = 1 / sqrt(2^x) would have a norm of 2
13:47:53 <mnoqy> um what norm are we using here
13:48:08 <nooodl> distance to (0,0,0,0,...)
13:48:33 <nooodl> (note: i'm dumb) which norms do i get to choose from
13:48:54 <nooodl> i calculated that using uh
13:49:18 <nooodl> |f| = \sqrt{ sum_{i=0}^\infty f(i)^2 }
13:49:18 <mnoqy> i hear the "l2" norm is popular (smile)
13:49:39 <nooodl> oh it'd have a norm of \sqrt 2 i guess
13:50:00 <nooodl> oh that's "euclidean norm"
13:50:24 <mnoqy> "doesnt really exist sorry"
13:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> the closest thing to a sensible value i can think of for |(1,1,1,1,1,...)| is 1
13:50:57 <nooodl> for |(1,1,1,...)| it'd be infinite RIP
13:51:14 <nooodl> that probably makes this "not very euclidean"
13:51:31 <mnoqy> as ph notes the l_\infty norm is "preferable"
13:51:56 <mnoqy> but things still dont always have those norms
13:52:06 <mnoqy> like the identity function wouldnt
13:52:15 <nooodl> how'd you calculate the l_\infty norm
13:52:20 <mnoqy> (i dont actually know of any norms for infinite dimensional spaces off hand)
13:52:42 <mnoqy> nooodl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space
13:53:02 <mnoqy> nooodl: its just the maximum of all the absolute values
13:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember proving the groundwork for that in analysis
13:53:23 <nooodl> ooh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequence_space
13:53:45 <nooodl> i like how i invented this independently though!!
13:53:54 <mnoqy> those are a thing yes
13:54:03 <mnoqy> iv dealt with them like once
13:54:31 <nooodl> man i should Math more
13:54:55 <mnoqy> something about you felt like category theorying
13:55:17 <nooodl> btw im going to be taking a category theory course in about 6 years
13:55:51 <mnoqy> alt. how do you know they offer cat theory (i dont know what university this is)
13:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you do category theory in warwick until postgrad stuff but probably you can do it in 4th year
14:01:20 <mnoqy> i guess it depends on the university as to how friendly they are about undergraduates taking graduate courses.........im just really used to it by now
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14:05:05 <nooodl> http://i.imgur.com/qyMCRSJ.png
14:06:23 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:07:31 <nooodl> that's a "first year (master)" course which means i need a bachelor degree first which takes 3 years
14:07:50 <mnoqy> so do they really not let you go out of sequence. laughs
14:07:53 <nooodl> and then of course there's one more year of "high school" before "university" even starts!!
14:08:22 <nooodl> and i hear next year involves
14:08:32 <nooodl> integrals: but ONLY numerically
14:08:44 <nooodl> and also circles and geometry and boring stuff
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14:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean you're not actually going to cover symbolic integration
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14:09:50 <nooodl> that's "university level" :')
14:10:28 <mnoqy> integration is for losers anyway though
14:10:48 <mnoqy> last time i needed it was a probability course and i just used a computer algebra system to do all my integrals for me
14:11:42 <nooodl> yeah i hate most of this stuff because
14:11:43 <mnoqy> that was....a year ago.......and the last time i had needed them prior to that was..........gosh like 4 or 5 years ago
14:11:50 <nooodl> deriving functions manually is hell
14:12:06 <mnoqy> deriving? OH you mean like calculus derivatives
14:12:15 <nooodl> and then the exam is no-calculator and you can't check it (yeah) and it's
14:13:11 <mnoqy> heh heh (smirk) hm come to think of it i did some other "integral and derivatives stuff" last year but it was analysis so instead of doing computations it was analysis.
14:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> nooodl, wait, do they expect you to actually like... manually... numerically... integrate?
14:13:48 <mnoqy> there are approximation techniques
14:13:57 <nooodl> oh no the integration is gonna be done on a ti-84
14:14:12 <mnoqy> hm and iv been seeing a bunch of "ends" recently which are notated like integrals
14:14:23 <nooodl> we have to know how to symbolically work out derivatives though
14:14:49 <mnoqy> it's like a limit except instead of a cone you have a wedge
14:14:54 <nooodl> but square roots........
14:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the quotient rule is like the hardest thing you have to do
14:15:10 <nooodl> also: but 2nd derivatives involving quotient rule ......................
14:15:24 <nooodl> we didn't cover the chain rule
14:15:32 <nooodl> instead learning a bunch of extra formulae for
14:15:55 <mnoqy> nooodl: http://nlab.mathforge.org/nlab/show/end
14:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> so do ends end up being equivalent to integrals in some category
14:17:34 <nooodl> imo everyone should explain CT concepts as "in Set, it's this"
14:17:39 <mnoqy> idk :[ idk what that would even mean
14:17:58 <nooodl> what are limits/colimits in Set even
14:18:22 <nooodl> (ps i don't know what CT (co-)limits are other than "they exist")
14:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well see limits are actually equivalent to proper limits in... some category
14:19:21 <mnoqy> limits are infima in preorder categories
14:19:28 <mnoqy> likewise, colimits are suprema
14:22:07 <mnoqy> nooodl: i dont know all the pedagogical tools for explaining most category theory things so all i can do is make bad jokes :(
14:22:24 <nooodl> this reminds me you haven't read my type theory joke
14:22:38 <mnoqy> i bet its not as good as elliott's homotopy type theory joke
14:22:58 <nooodl> q: why do type theorists have trouble opening bags
14:23:09 <nooodl> a: they can't discern the bag from its zipper
14:23:25 <elliott> my homotopy type theory joke is fnatastic nooodl
14:23:31 <elliott> 01:34:11 <elliott> joke: do you relate type-theoretic equality to the paths of homotopy theory, because you're pretty HoTT
14:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> what i want to know is, can you do all the stuff with ants and elastic bands and toruses in htt
14:24:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there's work on doing homotopy theory in hott
14:25:22 <nooodl> mnoqy: rate my joke please
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14:29:09 <mnoqy> `relcome lambdabot
14:29:12 <HackEgo> lambdabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:32:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
14:32:07 <mnoqy> > id :: Show a => a -> a
14:43:40 <elliott> Taneb: can't have lens/void until hashable bug is fixed
14:58:46 <FreeFull> Does lambdabot do the monomorphism restriction thing too?
15:01:32 <elliott> https://github.com/tibbe/hashable/issues/69
15:02:36 <FreeFull> Don't want to do it yourself locally for now?
15:04:32 -!- itsy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
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15:19:08 <ais523> problem I just solved for #esoteric to guess at: what's the standard UNIX command for determining the modification time of a file, in a format that can be piped into other programs?
15:19:51 -!- itsy has joined.
15:19:55 <ais523> I tried to get ls to work for ages, but it doesn't
15:20:11 <ais523> the options to output machine-readable formats are mutually exclusive with the options to output dates
15:20:16 <ais523> date works for mtime, at least
15:20:23 <ais523> although not for atime or ctime, I guess you're meant to use perl for those
15:23:00 <elliott> Taneb: how would it be rmdir?
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16:41:46 <gasoline> wow i got fucken kickbanned for opping in ##esoteric
16:42:15 <mnoqy> `relcome back, gasoline
16:42:18 <ais523> what's ##esoteric anyway
16:42:18 <HackEgo> back,: gasoline: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:42:45 <elliott> ais523: gasoline is a troll, btw
16:42:53 <elliott> mnoqy: what was their other name again
16:43:04 <mnoqy> elliott: gosh its on the tip of my tongue
16:43:08 <mnoqy> i;ll have to look it up
16:43:12 <ais523> and yeah, was going to ask "do you have evidence for that?"
16:43:22 <elliott> ais523: well, the last thing they said last time was that they'd be back :)
16:43:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20011
16:43:38 <gasoline> you might as well pastelog the fucken answer too dude
16:43:50 <mnoqy> elliott: newstalker
16:44:16 <ais523> elliott: well he/she's making more sense now than before, at least
16:44:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7432
16:44:38 <gasoline> who programmed that piece of crap
16:45:05 <ais523> 2013-06-02.txt:14:32:26: -!- ChanServ changed the modes of #esoteric: +v newstalker
16:45:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
16:45:23 <elliott> ais523: chanserv knew what had to be done
16:45:30 <ais523> who's responsible for that?
16:45:57 <ais523> I mean, who told chanserv to
16:46:14 <elliott> are you saying chanserv isn't allowed to do things by its own free will
16:46:21 <ais523> no, it's allowed to, it just doesn't
16:46:58 <elliott> can we get the banning part out of the way with
16:47:01 <ais523> actually I think I know who did the voicing
16:47:15 <ais523> elliott: well you know how I'm typically pretty slow to ban people
16:47:24 <ais523> does this channel have a rule against offtopic discussion?
16:47:44 <elliott> lol do you actually look at that pastelogs and just see "offtopic discussion" :DDD
16:47:50 <ais523> elliott: no, I was trying to troll you :)
16:47:55 <gasoline> elliott is the channel homosexual
16:48:06 <ais523> OK, gasoline, why are you insulting people randomly?
16:48:22 <elliott> how about you op me so i can kickban repeat offenders like this without the boring ritual in front of it
16:48:26 * itsy looks in to see if anyone's talking about esolangs...
16:48:27 <elliott> imo that'd be great and efficient
16:48:28 <ais523> can't, I've got about 3 screenfuls of chanserv help messages
16:48:52 <gasoline> if anyone is insulting its elliott and his "welcome"
16:48:53 <ais523> elliott: well part of the reason you aren't an op is we're worried you'd be a bit too trigger-hapy
16:49:00 <mnoqy> itsy: i hear there was a great "derp code" language recently
16:49:16 <ais523> at this point I've already made my mind up to kick gasoline, though, but I'm waiting to see his/her reaction because I think it'll be amusing
16:49:23 <elliott> ais523: it's true, i make sure to ban at least five people from #haskell every day
16:49:27 <elliott> it's my quota... for blood
16:49:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:49:41 <elliott> gasoline: btw mnoqy was the one who welcomed you
16:49:43 -!- ais523 has kicked gasoline that's a boring reaction :(.
16:50:36 <ais523> elliott: odds on how long before he/she tries to rejoin?
16:50:42 <FreeFull> IS there any interesting more recent esoteric language?
16:51:14 <ais523> I'd love it if there were
16:51:28 <ais523> something I was thinking about a while ago, discarded, and started thinking about again
16:51:44 <ais523> is "can you get interesting computational complexity from the word-wrap algorithm used by every editor ever?"
16:51:48 <ais523> I suspect the answer is no, though
16:54:10 <elliott> ais523: if they're sad enough to come back two times they are probably fine waiting
16:54:21 <elliott> this is why bans are good, so that someone who is not welcome in the channel can be prevented from disrupting it even when ops aren't around
16:54:42 <ais523> yeah but pretty much any troll who knows what they're doing can bypass bans anyway
16:55:01 <mnoqy> who needs bans with ever vigilant ops like #esoteric;s
16:55:13 <elliott> does this person strike you as the kind of person who knows what they're doing
16:55:20 <elliott> it seems to me like they are incredibly stupid
16:55:41 <mnoqy> im sure thats what they want you to think
16:57:57 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b #esoteric!*@*.
16:58:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:58:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:58:38 <ais523> elliott: well I tried to ban them and my IRC client segfaulted
16:58:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:58:51 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -b #esoteric!*@*.
16:59:08 <elliott> ais523: that was a good ban
16:59:16 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b *!*@5ED28E0D.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl.
16:59:23 <ais523> elliott: it's meaningless
16:59:33 <ais523> a channel can't send messages to itself, insufficient free will
16:59:35 <elliott> ais523: well, if #esoteric joined #esoteric...
17:00:22 <ais523> anyway, Konversation's capacity for interesting responses to typos continues to amuse me
17:00:26 <nooodl> #esoteric is an invalid nickname, so, imo ban it
17:01:41 <nooodl> how many ops does #esoteric have?
17:02:21 <ais523> although one of them is freenode-staff, one of them is never seen, and one of them turns up occasionally to troll
17:02:41 <ais523> leaving three who might reasonably ban a troll (me, fizze, and oerjan)
17:03:00 <ais523> elliott: what happened last time lament was here?
17:03:09 <nooodl> i have weird opinions about irc moderation, but...
17:03:10 <ais523> they turned up, unbanned a troll, and the troll turned up too and started trolling?
17:03:31 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
17:03:40 <elliott> ais523: they unbanned dbelange and he joined
17:03:40 <nooodl> i frequent a ~40 user channel where literally every regular is an op and it's extremely convenient
17:03:46 <elliott> ais523: lament knows dbelange from #math or someting
17:03:48 <elliott> so presumably he invited him
17:04:04 <ais523> need to check what that ban was for
17:04:12 <ais523> I remember it was warranted, but not why
17:04:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2521
17:04:26 <elliott> ais523: dbelange is infamous as an IRC troll
17:04:52 <ais523> oh wow, that's pretty trolly
17:04:53 * itsy wonders if anyones written a Quine in Mouse http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse
17:05:09 <elliott> ais523: that's saying something coming from you.
17:05:20 <ais523> itsy: if it's been around that long, probably
17:05:28 <ais523> especially if it caught on enough to have a book written about it
17:06:00 <ais523> admittedly, INTERCAL's had a book written about it (the newest manual; I spent a Christmas writing that)
17:06:08 <ais523> but reverse-admittedly, INTERCAL also has a quine
17:07:13 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
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17:14:13 <mnoqy> shouldn't you be working, Sgeo|work
17:15:12 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
17:16:57 <Sgeo|work> In what universe is hpaste.org a proxy avoidance site?
17:17:28 <elliott> hpaste.orgs a full disk site
17:17:41 <mnoqy> something about exotic porn
17:19:23 <itsy> ais523: the closest I got to a Mouse Quine: #f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"#f;34!'#f;34!'64!'$ f"@
17:19:58 <itsy> The problem is ! in a string represents a newline :-(
17:26:20 <Sgeo|work> Webchat keeps the tab saying Activity! even when there is no activity
17:26:54 <mnoqy> maybe webchat isn't the best client
17:44:00 <Bike> yo elliott you have a hott date with a book
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17:56:12 <Sgeo|work> Also, ais523 is a form of version control?
17:56:26 <itsy> Are there any classic Mac experts here?
17:56:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I kicked him/her for being insufficiently amusing for us to permit a troll here, then my client segfaulted when I tried to ban him/her
17:57:41 <ais523> I do that sometimes too, but more frequently just to Agorans
17:57:44 <Bike> bla bla nonbinary exclusion bla
17:57:51 <Sgeo|work> em is totally the normal thing to say if you assume everyone not in Agora is nonnormal
17:58:01 <Bike> anyway apparently there are crypto startups i didn't know this
17:58:30 <Sgeo|work> e is the only dumb spivak pronoun but I still prefer it over ey because tradition
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18:54:57 <Sgeo|work> Is there supposed to be anything interesting about DL?
18:59:27 <Sgeo|work> Idea: Compression algorithm that is lossless iff some unsolved conjecture is true
18:59:43 <mnoqy> theres nothing interesting aboout this language
19:00:46 <Sgeo|work> There's a conjecture that goes something like this, right?: Any number can be expressed as the sum of X Y
19:00:53 <Sgeo|work> What are X and Y, which conjecture? I forgot
19:01:38 <mnoqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbach_conjecture
19:03:56 <tromp_> here's a picture of the Goldbach Conjecture as a program looking for counterexamples: https://github.com/tromp/AIT/blob/master/goldbach.gif
19:04:51 <lambdabot> elliott: (3+3) * (7+4) / 347 => 66/347 => 0.1902
19:05:43 <Sgeo|work> RLE for BF that can express any BF program stripped of comments iff Goldbach is true: {2;2+} means following character repeated 4 times, the two numbers must be primes, + means just add the two, - means add them then subtract one, multiple of a character outside {} not allowed... oh, need to allow for ++ somehow, hmm
19:05:56 <Sgeo|work> Just thought of something productive I could be doing
19:06:06 <tromp_> it's a lambda calculus term that normalizes iff GC is false
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19:19:52 <itsy> The following appear 5+ times in Pascal's Triangle: 120, 210, 1540, 7140, 11628, 24310 (all 6 times) & 3003 (8 times). Are there any others?
19:25:00 <tromp_> 61218182743304701891431482520 appears 6 or more times
19:32:51 <kmc> you can take the kmc out of the #haskell but you can never take the #haskell out of the kmc
19:34:56 <itsy> Aha, I only checked 32 bit numbers...
19:38:57 <elliott> did you tell someone "yes, haskell can do that"
19:41:01 <zzo38> I made some sequent calculus representation of Turing machines. It only uses the right side of the sequents. If combined with classical logic, the result is inconsistent, although I think it can be consistently combined with linear logic.
19:42:52 <zzo38> I don't have time right now to put it into the computer, but I will on the weekend, so that you can see.
19:43:02 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:43:11 <zzo38> Do you know of any such things like this?
19:45:04 <kmc> i would be curious to see that zzo38]
19:46:58 <zzo38> kmc: On weekend I will have time to put it into the computer, I hope.
19:46:58 <zzo38> Maybe when I do that, you can also tell me if you found a mistake in it.
19:48:50 <zzo38> The Turing machine and its current state and tape are represented by a multiset of formulas on the right of the sequent, and it is provable if and only if it halts.
19:51:50 <zzo38> It doesn't have the rule of cut and of identity and of weakening and so on; it starts from nothing (this is needed for many kinds of non-classical logic, where such rules don't apply, you can't start with those!).
19:53:08 <zzo38> Could a esolang be made based on sequent calculus somehow?
19:54:49 <shachaf> kmc: looks like a good #haskell-style argument
19:55:37 <shachaf> did the person you were arguing with really switch to "i agree with you but other people don't?"
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19:56:15 <elliott> @let data Foo a = Bar | Quux a
19:56:20 <elliott> @let data Fooo a = Bar | Quux a
19:56:30 <elliott> @let instance Show (Fooo a) where show Bar = "q"; show _ = "r"
19:56:31 -!- myname has joined.
19:56:50 <zzo38> I also want to see what happen if you do combine this Turing machine logic with linear logic, to see what it makes. I believe the result is consistent but I haven't proven it. (I have proven that combining Turing machine logic with classical logic results in an inconsistent logic.)
19:57:42 <kmc> shachaf: i didn't notice
19:57:52 <shachaf> > instance Typeable (Fooo a)
19:57:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `instance'
19:58:00 <shachaf> @let instance Typeable (Fooo a)
19:58:01 <lambdabot> .L.hs:119:20: Not in scope: type constructor or class `Fooo'
19:58:12 <shachaf> @let data Hi; instance Typeable Hi
19:58:13 <lambdabot> Can't create hand written instances of Typeable in Safe H...
19:58:57 <shachaf> The other bot supported "> data ...", "let ...", like ghci. Maybe lambdabot should support that too.
20:00:21 <itsy> What value are a & b? 2 ? a ? b ? 99. Sam knows a+b. Pat knows ab. Sam: "I don't know a & b. Nor do you." Pat: "I do now!" Sam: "So do I."
20:00:30 <elliott> turns out this was already in lambdabot
20:00:35 <zzo38> Who set up lambdabot? Then tell them, or program the patch and give it to them.
20:00:36 <itsy> Problem whose solution uses goldbach conjecture :-)
20:01:45 <itsy> What value are a & b? 2 <= a <= b <= 99. Sam knows a+b. Pat knows ab. Sam: "I don't know a & b. Nor do you." Pat: "I do now!" Sam: "So do I." (IRC didn't like less than or equal character)
20:02:17 <kmc> oh there it is
20:02:26 <kmc> twitter is really bad at showing replies and at conversations generally
20:02:29 <zzo38> itsy: That isn't due to IRC; it is due to whatever character encoding is being used might or might not support it, and if the client support that character encoding or not.
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20:05:31 <zzo38> What I don't know how to make using sequent calculus is a pull-down resistor.
20:06:06 <Taneb> itsy, how does Sam know that Pat doesn't know a and b?
20:06:13 <Taneb> Does he work it out?
20:07:18 <zzo38> Taneb: At least I assume that must be.
20:09:17 <nooodl> how can the solution rely on the goldbach conjecture if a and b are <= 99?
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20:48:36 <Bike> kmc: jesus, that EFF case. the government argued that the court didn't have authority over its own files?
20:50:33 <kmc> i don't even know
20:50:52 <kmc> state secrets trials are always a kafkaesque nightmare
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20:51:26 <Bike> apparently a senator said "I hope in a classified setting that more of this can be brought light"
20:51:29 <Bike> like gee thanks
20:51:43 <kmc> if you publish classified information you will sometimes be forbidden from attending your own trial because, the evidence is classified
20:52:16 <Bike> even though it's not relevant to this it's the "born secret" part that reallly gets me
20:52:52 <Bike> if i invent a fusion bomb design it is classified
20:54:56 <Bike> maybe they'll decide that works for crypto in the future or something, sigh
20:58:44 <Fiora> isn't there that thing where they do the trials "in camera" with like a public and private version
20:59:30 <Fiora> (geez why does "in camera" mean in private that makes no sense)
20:59:46 <Bike> ^rainbow latin fetishism
21:00:12 <fizzie> (My 'v6 tunnelbroker did what the name implies and broke down; just a moment.)
21:00:35 <elliott> Fiora: well if you're inside a camera
21:00:38 <elliott> the camera can't take a picture of you
21:00:56 <Bike> if it's a pinhole camera can't it project you
21:00:57 -!- fungot has joined.
21:01:16 <fizzie> fungot: How can you take a photo in camera?
21:01:17 <fungot> fizzie: a lot of functions in r5rs that you can beat delphi and vb.net or whatever just by selling lisp for money instead of delphi or vb.net for money.
21:01:36 <Taneb> camera is Latin for room
21:01:46 <Taneb> camera is Latin for Italian
21:01:50 <Bike> Fiora: Oh, they did that (with the two versions) for the "born secret" trial.
21:02:17 <Fiora> that was the one I was remembering it from, I think
21:02:34 <Bike> i heard about that because i have an omnibus of szilard's papers, half of which were classified derp
21:03:57 <Bike> i just got a spam message from my mobile provider saying "See who's taken notice as we've enhanced your mobile experience"
21:04:04 <Bike> that sure sounds ominous in this context
21:05:18 <itsy> shachaf: & is just and
21:05:59 <Bike> shouldn't it be "I don't know a /or/ b"
21:10:36 <itsy> Taneb: Sam works it out. (I.e. from a+b, Sam knows ab can't be the product of two primes)
21:10:55 <Bike> oh, and also "Since 1979, the FISA court rejected only 11 of 33,900 govt surveillance applications" so that's cool
21:11:25 <itsy> Bike: if you know a, you know b.
21:12:48 <Bike> @ask Phantom_Hoover http://24.media.tumblr.com/3260b4b8517dd6199069ee767ec86dfe/tumblr_moaf6cZXju1qaokvbo1_500.png help
21:12:52 <itsy> Did any see about the German girl who got refused entry into the USA because the US govt read her private Facebook messages. (not posted to her wall or anything)
21:14:49 <Taneb> Bike: seen it already
21:17:07 <Bike> also why is it "1942", what
21:17:57 <elliott> iirc 1942 was when martin luther defeated the nazi's with catholicism
21:18:46 <Bike> oh my god he rewrote the whole thing.
21:18:58 <Bike> «In a sense we've come to our nation's Internet to be meme-addicts. When the web-bloggers wrote the magnificent words of the Philosoraptor and the Nyancat, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to go "Ermahgerd!" This note was a promise that all men, yes, troll-face men as well as ridiculously photogenic guys, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "rage, being forever alone, and friendship is magic."»
21:19:30 * kmc hands out cyanide pills
21:19:40 <Bike> so, in conclusion, he- thanks
21:20:36 <mnoqy> how does this exist
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21:40:00 <mnoqy> `run relcome nooodl|chaf
21:40:03 <HackEgo> nochafoodlchaf: Welcomechaf tochaf thechaf internachaftionalchaf hubchaf forchaf esotericchaf programminchafgchaf languagchafechaf designchaf andchaf deploymenchaftchaf! Forchaf morechaf informationchaf, chechafckchaf outchaf ouchafrchaf wikichaf: httpchaf://eschafolangschaf.or
21:40:53 <Bike> it's unix, so infinity
21:40:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sed -f \ s/\w\w\w\+/\0chaf/g
21:41:14 <kmc> `chaf hello
21:41:15 <HackEgo> ELFchaf............>......@.....@..................@.8..@....................@.......@.....:.......:......... ...................@......@.....$.......$..............Qtd...........................................................GNUchaf.ﲜ@+S
21:41:23 <Bike> is that... blinking...
21:41:28 <kmc> `run echo hello | chaf
21:41:37 <kmc> `run echo this is some nonsense | chaf
21:41:39 <HackEgo> thischaf is somechaf nonsensechaf
21:41:52 <Bike> yeah this is news to me
21:42:02 <HackEgo> schafhachaf: Welcchafomechaf to thchafechaf interchafnatichafonalchaf hubchaf forchaf esotericchaf prochafgrammingchaf languchafagechaf designchaf andchaf deploymechafntchaf! Forchaf morechaf informchafationchaf, checkchaf outchaf ourchaf wikichaf: httpchaf://esolangschaf.orgchaf/wikchaf
21:42:26 <Bike> i'm still confused bout prochafgrammingchaf languchafagechaf
21:42:51 <shachaf> Is the goal to make me turn off the hilight?
21:43:06 <elliott> mnoqy: ps did you write this
21:43:08 <shachaf> Maybe I should set the hilight to be kmc-only.
21:43:16 <kmc> i have no such goal
21:43:49 <shachaf> kmc: are you running for prime minister
21:48:06 <Bike> what's the hilight for, chaf\b?
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22:03:40 <oerjan> <elliott> it's a different slur! <-- [dk][iy]ke ? actually there's a not yet mentioned non-slur matching that, too
22:05:20 <oerjan> hm now google isn't answering
22:06:04 <Bike> i've never seen one of those spellings
22:06:35 <kmc> an elaborate system of dikes and polders
22:06:38 <oerjan> well i don't think kyke is a word hth
22:06:52 <oerjan> (it might still be, this is english after all)
22:07:16 <Bike> yeah apparently it's an accepted other spelling
22:07:27 <Bike> it's not like anyone's really dogmatically enforcing spellings of slurs
22:07:38 <kmc> accepted alternate spellings: [a-z]*
22:07:58 <Bike> don't be such a uaqbn, kmc
22:08:36 <kmc> yesterday i wondered what's the longest word that can be typed on the dvorak home row
22:08:38 <oerjan> oh apparently both dike and dyke can be used in both meanings
22:08:41 <elliott> don't be such a kmc, uaqbn
22:08:52 <kmc> it appears to be 'tendentiousness'
22:09:23 <kmc> for qwerty the best you can do is 'alfalfa'
22:09:53 <kmc> for the top row the longest (and most famous) word is 'typewriter'
22:10:07 <kmc> this is some indication of how fucked up qwerty is
22:11:02 <kmc> my favorite dvorak home row word is probably 'shithead'
22:11:27 <kmc> i should write a novel using only the home row in dvorak
22:11:48 <Bike> oulipo for the modern age
22:11:55 <olsner> kmc: ok, then you should write a novel using only the home row
22:12:39 <kmc> proper nouns don't count hth
22:12:50 <shachaf> because shift isn't on the front row?
22:13:12 <nooodl> my words file gives "unostentatiousness" as the longest dvorak home row word
22:13:17 <nooodl> which is pretty badass
22:13:52 <FreeFull> But what's the longest word you can write using only four letters?
22:14:05 <FreeFull> As in, only four different ones
22:15:11 <itsy> Freefull: Bananas
22:15:30 <Bike> huh, it's not often that a "longest word" of any sort is something i can understand
22:15:34 <kmc> senselessness
22:15:48 <kmc> does lambdabot have a word list loaded? that could be fun
22:16:07 <Bike> `run ls /usr/share/dict
22:16:14 <FreeFull> itsy: That's shorter than lollipop
22:16:53 <kmc> maximumBy (comparing length) . filter ((<=4) . length . nub) . lines <$> readFile "/usr/share/dict/words"
22:16:53 <FreeFull> Bike: Well, lollipop was only an example of a word that only used 4 different letters or less
22:17:10 <Bike> i meant "unostentatiousness"
22:17:20 <nooodl> 'beerbibber', 'chachalaca', 'couscousou', 'isoosmosis', 'kerrikerri', 'kotukutuku', 'recercelee', 'rememberer', 'senescence', 'sereneness', 'sleeveless', 'tattletale', 'Wallawalla', 'Mississippi', 'taratantara', 'killeekillee', 'kinnikinnick', 'tangantangan', 'senselessness'
22:17:50 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
22:17:59 <lambdabot> Data.Ord comparing :: Ord a => (b -> a) -> b -> b -> Ordering
22:18:26 <oerjan> i was going to say penanggalan but it has 5
22:19:37 <nooodl> cool, words using 16 different letters: 'superacknowledgment', 'blepharoconjunctivitis', 'pneumoventriculography', 'formaldehydesulphoxylic', 'Pseudolamellibranchiata', 'pseudolamellibranchiate'
22:20:04 <kmc> those aren't in my list :(
22:20:08 <Bike> `thanks biology
22:20:10 <HackEgo> Thanks, biology. Thiology.
22:20:24 <Bike> that's definitely the best script in lambdabot tbh
22:20:35 <kmc> A mosquito was heard to complain / "a chemist has poisoned my brain!" / the cause of his sorrow / was para-dichloro / diphenyltrichloroethane
22:20:35 <nooodl> and it's not even in lambdabot :-)
22:20:52 <Bike> yes it's just that good
22:21:15 <oerjan> careful, elliott might add it
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22:22:18 <nooodl> yes this limerick is quality
22:22:24 <nooodl> (elliott: have you seen my unicode poetry)
22:22:34 <itsy> Freefull: sleepless, longer than lollipop :)
22:22:56 <Bike> man the only chemistry rhyme i can remember is the sulfuric acid one
22:23:09 <nooodl> im taking that as a no??
22:23:22 <nooodl> geez where's the limerick
22:23:26 <Fiora> Bike: little johnny is no more?
22:23:37 <Bike> Fiora: classic y'know
22:23:45 <FreeFull> itsy: We already determined with a program that senselessness fullfills the criteria
22:23:46 <Bike> elliott: snort
22:23:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5018
22:24:12 <nooodl> `pastelogs 2013-06-06.txt:22:13:
22:24:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27428
22:24:36 <kmc> so now @src (.) is wrong? hilarious
22:24:54 <Fiora> Bike: whenever I think of that limerick I think of the poor shirt I destroyed with nitric acid
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> KANGXI RADICAL WHITE
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT
22:24:58 <nooodl> 22:13:17: <nooodl> NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
22:25:09 <Bike> Fiora: heh. did you see the mouth pippeting thing
22:25:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:25:41 <Bike> Fiora: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/bodyhorrors/2013/03/20/mouth_pipetting/
22:27:31 <nooodl> http://bpaste.net/raw/olydVfuzIeXaGKTkVxlJ/ this is the sonnet (ignore the |s they're just character name boundaries)
22:27:50 <nooodl> (make sure to read it in iambic pentameter!)
22:28:09 <elliott> i can't read anything in iambic pentameter
22:28:09 <FreeFull> You should write a program to do it for you now
22:28:14 <itsy> FreeFull: senselessnesses for 15 :-P
22:28:15 <oerjan> @tell taneb <Taneb> Does that make me a pro <-- now that makes you willy wonka hth
22:28:20 <Bike> Fiora: yeaaaaaah
22:28:23 <nooodl> it was in the topic for a while
22:28:37 <elliott> nooodl: imo you should get these published
22:28:38 <nooodl> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN | HIRAGANA LETTER YA | SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:28:51 <elliott> it's great seeing the cadence and rhyme of poetry but not getting any meaning out of it
22:29:01 <nooodl> it has the 5-7-5 thing, kireji, season words,
22:29:22 <nooodl> it looks like the easiest one but it's actually the best + hardest one
22:29:28 <Bike> Fiora: this came up in a discussion amongst chem grad students about getting carpal tunnel from pippeting, which is... better
22:30:09 <Bike> i don't think i really 'got' poetry until i read a Brown poem out loud. that was a nice feeling
22:30:44 <kmc> oh i didn't see the sonet
22:31:12 <nooodl> i like the final 6 verses
22:31:34 <nooodl> there's an ascii symbol inside too!
22:32:18 <nooodl> someone: write a script that converts my sonnet into actual unicode symbols
22:32:18 <FreeFull> Try making a poem out of the names of greek letters
22:32:28 <elliott> Bike: wow this mouth pippetting thing is horrifying
22:32:46 <Bike> `thanks chemistry
22:32:47 <HackEgo> Thanks, chemistry. Themistry.
22:32:56 <nooodl> `thanks mouth pippetting
22:32:56 <HackEgo> Thanks, mouth pippetting. Thouth pippetting.
22:33:05 <nooodl> vote: should it th-ify each word
22:33:29 <elliott> nooodl: have you even watched look around you btw....
22:34:12 <elliott> are we talking both series here or just the first one
22:34:26 <nooodl> i think only the first one...?? maybe
22:35:02 <elliott> Long-time mouth pipettor back in the day...best (worst) moment was doling out a ton of bacterial broth into tubes using a 25 mL pipette for several minutes and then transfering bacterial cultures using a 1 mL pipette.
22:35:05 <oerjan> <nooodl> but would you really stress that "NEED"? it's ridic. <-- i think that was meant to indicate the urgency here, as in "only if you _really_ need it"
22:35:06 <elliott> After about a dozen or so sucks on the 25 mL, I wasn't paying enough attention and did a 25-mL suck on the 1 mL pipette...almost inhaled the cotton ball and got a good mouthful of bacterial culture. Salty and a little yeasty.
22:35:17 <Bike> a little yeasty
22:35:25 <nooodl> oerjan, but then why isn't REALLY bold
22:35:51 <nooodl> elliott: i've watched all of season 1 but also vaguely remember watching Computers from season two
22:36:03 <nooodl> (that's the one with the video games right?)
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22:36:24 <oerjan> nooodl: um do you mean "ready"? there is no "really".
22:36:51 <nooodl> oh i thought you were quoting
22:37:09 <nooodl> i've forgotten about this speech bubble hours ago
22:38:42 <oerjan> also it's supposed to be a little theatrical, i'm sure.
22:39:04 <shachaf> is it even worth it watching the second look around you series
22:39:17 <oerjan> these _are_ mad scientists and there minions, after all.
22:39:22 -!- nooodl^ has joined.
22:39:31 <oerjan> (and technically they're nobles, too)
22:39:49 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:40:06 <elliott> it is fantastic, not as good as the first though
22:41:05 <Koen_> hey can you start a letter with "Mrs., Mr"?
22:41:27 <Koen_> when you have no idea of the name or gender of your correspondent
22:41:36 <elliott> how about just use their name
22:42:07 <shachaf> if it's so good why can't you get a region 1 (/ no region) dvd
22:42:28 <Koen_> because I don't know their name elliott
22:42:56 <Koen_> in french we'd go with "Madame, Monsieur, "
22:44:12 <Koen_> what'd you say about my sister?? *headbut*
22:46:12 <Koen_> well I know you'd expect me to put some t there
22:46:23 <Koen_> but I'm not british am I? I only drink coffee
22:47:45 <oerjan> then you should be colombian hth
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22:53:54 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched...
22:54:00 <lambdabot> The operator `:' [infixr 5] of a section
22:54:47 <FreeFull> Yeah, I see why that wouldn't work
22:55:05 <oerjan> well it _could_ have worked, haskell just doesn't allow it.
22:56:18 <lambdabot> "hthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthhthht...
22:56:31 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
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22:59:53 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> if x == a then b else if x == b then a else x
22:59:57 <lambdabot> ap (flip if' b . (a ==)) (join (flip if' a . (b ==)))
22:59:57 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:01:36 <lambdabot> ap (flip if' b . (a ==)) (join (flip if' a . (b ==)))
23:01:36 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:02:53 <FreeFull> @let let swapE a b = map (\x -> if x == a then b else if x == b then a else x )
23:03:08 <oerjan> :t fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:04:35 <FreeFull> :t \x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:04:40 <FreeFull> :t \a b x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b), (b,a)]
23:05:27 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map $ \x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)]
23:05:31 <lambdabot> ((map $) .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:05:31 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:05:48 <lambdabot> ((map $) .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:05:48 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:05:57 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map *\x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)])
23:05:57 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", ".", "`", "!!", operator, "*", "/", "`quot`", "`rem`", "`div`", "`mod`", ":%", "%" or end of input
23:06:02 <FreeFull> @pl \a b -> map (\x -> fromMaybe x . flip lookup [(a,b),(b,a)])
23:06:05 <lambdabot> (map .) . (flip ((.) . fromMaybe) .) . (flip lookup .) . ap (ap . ((:) .) . (,)) (flip (flip . ((:) .) . flip (,)) [])
23:06:05 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:06:16 <oerjan> elliott: is there some bug in @pl's check of whether anything is changing?
23:06:48 <oerjan> or perhaps two rules that cancel each other but keep triggering
23:07:15 <oerjan> i recall this one from before:
23:07:25 <oerjan> @pl (ap id id) (ap id id)
23:07:28 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:08:01 <FreeFull> @pl <CTCP>ACTION licks something<CTCP>
23:08:01 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
23:08:02 <oerjan> that one actually is reasonable as infinitely triggering.
23:08:09 <oerjan> (although it cannot type)
23:08:55 <FreeFull> @pl \1ACTION licks something\1
23:09:00 <FreeFull> @pl "\1ACTION licks something\1"
23:09:02 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
23:09:02 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0
23:09:22 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
23:09:22 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> b0) -> a0 -> b0
23:09:42 <Bike> isn't that exactly the same
23:09:46 <lambdabot> Monad m => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
23:10:23 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:10:27 <oerjan> but @pl didn't know about applicatives last i checked
23:10:42 <oerjan> @pl (id <*> id) (id <*> id)
23:11:56 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
23:11:57 <lambdabot> join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join (join id))))))))))))))))))))))))
23:12:23 <FreeFull> @pl \x -> x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x `x` x x
23:12:25 <lambdabot> ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (ap id (join (join id)))))))))))))))))))))) `ap` join id
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23:13:29 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:13:29 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:13:38 <Bike> looks efficient.
23:13:46 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:13:47 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:14:06 <lambdabot> flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . flip (ap . ((*) .) . ap (flip . ((*) .) . (*)) id) id) id) id
23:14:06 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:14:08 <kmc> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pW0fbLrweME/T9hQhjYUINI/AAAAAAAAEGs/CnYKunGnryo/s1600/IMG_5897ac.JPG bizarre fungus
23:14:12 <kmc> http://www.mushroomexpert.com/ileodictyon_gracile.html
23:14:28 <oerjan> Bike: you know because of Doubles and stuff it cannot assume * is associative hth
23:14:44 <oerjan> (not that it would care anyhow)
23:14:47 <kmc> FreeFull: ;P
23:15:11 <lambdabot> flip (ap . (flip .) . ((flip .) .) . (((flip .) .) .) . (((((*) .) .) .) .) . ((((*) .) .) .) . (((*) .) .) . ((*) .) . (*)) id
23:15:11 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:15:27 <FreeFull> @pl \x y -> x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y*x*y
23:15:32 <lambdabot> join . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .)
23:15:33 <lambdabot> . join (flip . ((*) .) . flip ap id . ((*) .) . join (flip . ((*) .) . (*)))))))
23:15:33 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:15:48 <FreeFull> But I did get lambdabot to split it across two lines
23:19:03 <Bike> isn't there some simple way to use @pl by itself
23:19:51 <Bike> i don't know, last time i asked how @pl worked i was answered with "It uses Haskell"
23:19:53 <oerjan> > (curry$(!!13).scanl1(*).cycle.sequence[fst,snd])x y
23:19:55 <lambdabot> x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y * x * y
23:25:27 -!- nooodl^ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:27:55 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
23:29:00 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:29:46 <oerjan> <Sgeo|work> Was told to relax a bit <-- have you started worrying your coworkers?
23:30:01 <Sgeo_> oerjan, not that I know of, I hope
23:30:15 <Sgeo_> If I can strike fear into one of our vendors though, I would be happy
23:30:30 <oerjan> i recall you mentioned something about "workaholic"
23:30:56 <Sgeo_> I often think about work when I'm at home... then again, I sometimes think about not-work at work
23:31:04 <Sgeo_> But those times I usually feel a bit guilty
23:31:41 <lambdabot> ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (ap (^) (join (^))))))
23:31:56 <lambdabot> liftM2 (.) (^) (ap (^) . liftM2 (.) (^) (ap (^) . ap ((.) . (^)) (flip (^))))
23:31:56 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:32:09 <Bike> wait what is that
23:32:11 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
23:32:13 <FreeFull> Multiplication was best so far
23:32:27 <Bike> haskell is hard.............
23:32:29 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
23:33:06 <oerjan> > ap (*) (ap (*) (ap (*) (join (*)))) x
23:33:08 <FreeFull> Bike: Sure, there are three exponentiation operators
23:33:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq, reviews said the bass was too quiet on these... the bass is much more pronounced than I'm used to
23:33:25 <FreeFull> But you can usually either just use ^ or **
23:33:46 <kmc> Bike: it's all those monads, am i rite
23:33:50 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Some people think bass is about amplitude.
23:34:50 <Bike> > (3 ^ 481891) `mod` 17
23:34:54 <oerjan> ^^ is for the rare case when you are raising something that can be divided but isn't floating-point to a possibly negative integral type
23:36:30 <Bike> so i'm wondering, is the modular exponentiation thing optimized well
23:36:43 <pikhq> > (4 :: Int) ^^ (-2 :: Int)
23:36:44 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Types.Int)
23:37:18 <oerjan> otoh if you define a modular type ^ will work on it efficiently automatically
23:37:51 <oerjan> well, relatively efficient, it won't make use of cycles in the exponent as that would require euler phi-function stuff
23:38:52 <oerjan> and factorizing the modulus, i think
23:39:06 <elliott> GOD BLESS GOD BLESS GOD BLESS
23:39:23 <oerjan> internet, ruining elliott's atheism since 2013
23:39:24 <elliott> i had all but given up hope
23:39:31 <elliott> kmc: my internet went down
23:39:59 <elliott> it is seriously worrying that this actually makes me depressed and panicky
23:40:04 <elliott> it's back now so i don't have to think about that
23:40:17 <kmc> millenials, am i right
23:40:26 <kmc> with their facebooks and their instagrams
23:41:00 <elliott> i wish internet was considered as important as a utility as, e.g. electricity
23:41:09 <Bike> municipal internet is a thing
23:41:12 <elliott> in terms of expected reliability of access etc.
23:41:21 <elliott> Bike: yeah but it isn't really any better is it
23:41:46 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
23:41:57 <Bike> well i just mean, people do think like you're saying
23:42:07 <Bike> not that it's as far as electricity yet in terms of reliability
23:42:21 <Bike> (and of course electricity isn't that reliable anywhere either check your privilege etc etc)
23:42:38 <elliott> um i obviously only care about mysel
23:42:46 <elliott> hey what channel name should i use to test lambdabot note it has to not end in "bot"
23:43:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:43:54 <oerjan> who is this bmal and what is this hidden lambdabot they were involved in
23:44:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
23:44:12 <elliott> join for fun lambdabot testing time's
23:46:19 <Sgeo_> #bots does not end in bot
23:47:33 <Sgeo_> "Hello Sgeo_, Attempting to change the rules in someone else's environment is a game that cannot be won."
23:47:46 <Sgeo_> Got greeted by that in #bots
23:48:04 <Sgeo_> Reminds me of the Risho-Agoran war... a little
23:48:09 <Sgeo_> I didn't actually ever see it myself
23:48:26 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a529c4c5aa22f00c361b6a591c5a3467/tumblr_moapkcYyQV1rsbiwyo1_400.jpg esoteric animes
23:50:26 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:50:27 -!- sacje has joined.
23:54:28 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to SgeoBot.
23:55:10 <oerjan> i was ever so slightly responsible for the risho-agoran war, i recall.