00:00:08 <ais523> and it can take me a while to realise I'm trying to close a window with `-F4, for instance
00:01:15 <ais523> (no, ` is not next to alt on normal UK keyboards, it's normally above tab, but it doesn't fit there on this keyboard because it's quite short on space)
00:01:41 <oerjan> hm XD looks weird on this screen.
00:01:45 <ais523> for similar reasons, I rebound the window manager menu to alt-super rather than just super
00:01:58 <ais523> the two keys are as easy to hit intentionally as one, but harder to hit by mistake
00:03:22 <ais523> (for anyone reading who doesn't know, Super is the key that normally has the Windows logo on it)
00:03:25 <Fiora> my laptop keyboard for some reason put the windows key to the /right/ of the spacebar
00:03:29 <Fiora> it's very confusing
00:03:50 <Fiora> it goes... CTRL FN ALT SPACE \ ALT WIN CTL then arrows
00:04:50 <ais523> or doesn't it have one?
00:04:57 <zzo38> I would prefer to instead call the keys "Logo" and "Context" and have those words printed on them instead of the icons.
00:04:59 <Bike> that's weird. my laptop is smaller than yours and has more keys.
00:05:12 <Fiora> mine has a numpad too though
00:05:19 <Fiora> what's the menu key?
00:05:43 <ais523> the one that's usually equivalent to shift-F10 in most OSes (although not KDE)
00:06:05 <ais523> and likewise, is usually equivalent to right-clicking on whatever has keyboard focus
00:06:16 <ais523> I don't use it as much as I should, really
00:06:33 <ais523> (interestingly, Emacs interprets menu the same way it interprets meta-x, by default)
00:06:33 <Fiora> oh. I guess I don't have it
00:06:39 <zzo38> So it is the key I prefer to call "CONTEXT". In Windows SHIFT+F10 does that in many cases, and right-clicking does too; not all software uses that, as well as not all operating systems
00:06:45 <Fiora> I wonder why my keyboard has two \,| keys
00:06:53 <zzo38> Fiora: I have seen that too.
00:06:54 <Fiora> one's next to space, the other's in the 'normal' place below backspace
00:06:58 <Fiora> there must be some reason for that?
00:07:13 <zzo38> I think it is for when using alternate keyboard layouts, they are different.
00:07:19 <ais523> Fiora: it's normally because the Return key takes up the space that the top backslash key would use
00:07:28 <ais523> so it's on two spaces in the keyboard key sensors
00:07:37 <ais523> normally you extend space over one, or return over the other, depending on your layout
00:07:45 <ais523> sometimes people don't realise that and just put the key in both places
00:08:26 <oerjan> huh the putty shortcuts that it put in the "start menu" actually showed up in the win8 app "start menu"
00:08:33 <ais523> (this is for US keyboards; it's more complicated in the UK because of the # key)
00:08:44 <ais523> oerjan: there isn't a separate start menu
00:08:50 <ais523> so it's trying to do something vaguely backwards-compatible
00:08:52 <Fiora> http://gentechpcforums.com/system-images/Sager/Sager_NP9150/Sager_NP9150-3.jpg
00:08:54 <Fiora> oh yay there's mine
00:09:37 * Bike takes a moment to remember that some keyboards have numpads
00:09:46 <Bike> everything's so..... left..........
00:09:46 <zzo38> oerjan: O, maybe it does; I have once set up a computer for someone it had Windows 8 installed. I could still figure it out because the WIN+R to open the run menu is still the same, cmd.exe still works (I thought they would remove it in favor of PowerShell; luckily they kept cmd.exe and even added some more commands), and the other keyboard shortcuts still work even in fullscreen programs.
00:09:59 <ais523> oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw?
00:10:08 <ais523> there are something like five ways to do it, and /none/ of them are intuitive
00:10:28 <Fiora> Bike: my feelings are kind of split on that
00:10:32 <Fiora> like on the one hand, I don't think I've ever used it
00:10:46 <kmc> @oeis 3, 95, 98, 2000, 7, 8
00:10:48 <Bike> ok good i thought you were making a joke about the keyboard being split into keys and numpad.
00:10:52 <Fiora> on the other hand if it wasn't there, the keyboard would have probably been like 1/3 bigger
00:10:56 <Fiora> and a lot harder to use
00:11:16 <Bike> i can just about span my keyboard with one hand
00:11:21 <lambdabot> Period numbers of A133900 divided by n^2.[1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,4,1,6,1,4,3,1,1,...
00:11:38 <lambdabot> a(n) = period of the sequence {b(m), m>=0}, defined by b(m):=binomial(m+n,n)...
00:11:52 <Fiora> my hand totally stretched out goes from about the left side of the caps to the K/Lish
00:12:06 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 33, 42, 51
00:12:20 <ais523> I can get from A to = on this keyboard (to pick two keys which are in the same relative positions on it as they are on normal keyboards)
00:12:44 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34
00:12:44 <Bike> Fiora: yeah what i mean is that it's very small proportionally.
00:12:45 <lambdabot> a(n) = solution to the postage stamp problem with 2 denominations and n stam...
00:12:45 <ais523> I think we've run out of Microsoft products to mock the version numbering of
00:12:57 <Fiora> you have like that mini netbook thing right?
00:13:04 <Fiora> though you also probably have bigger hands <.<
00:13:04 <Bike> Also that my hands are big, maybe.
00:13:18 <Bike> these hands were made for graspin'
00:13:27 <Fiora> hee hee my laptop is around two full hand-spans wide
00:13:31 <kmc> @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34, 42
00:13:32 <lambdabot> Local stops on New York City Broadway line (IRT #1) subway.[14,18,23,28,34,4...
00:13:34 <kmc> there we go
00:13:49 <ais523> kmc: I was wondering if that's what you were aiming for :)
00:13:58 <ais523> also I'm amused it's in OEIS
00:14:17 <kmc> my first attempt was supposed to be the lexington line, which i thought was also in there
00:14:28 <kmc> the second attempt was correct for the 7th ave line, but ambiguous :/
00:14:57 <kmc> @oeis 14, 23, 28, 34, 42, 49, 57
00:16:36 <Fiora> @oeis 6,21,107,47176870
00:16:40 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m...
00:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott so i found an article explaining The Problem With Procedural Generation: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TynanSylvester/20130602/193462/The_Simulation_Dream.php
00:18:25 <Bike> were you talking about that with elliott, or
00:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i mentioned it ages ago, also me and elliott had a bunch of teenage conversations about game design a while ago
00:19:34 <Bike> like... in that you're teenagers, or
00:19:57 <Fiora> that's a really cool article :o
00:20:24 <lambdabot> Dana Scott's sequence: a(n) = (a(n-2) + a(n-1) * a(n-3)) / a(n-4), a(0) = a(...
00:20:25 <kmc> itt we are teenagers
00:20:54 <Bike> The Michotte thing linked is pretty boss.
00:21:19 <Fiora> @oeis 5,13,29,61,125
00:21:19 <lambdabot> 2^n-3.[2,1,1,5,13,29,61,125,253,509,1021,2045,4093,8189,16381,32765,65533,13...
00:21:24 <Bike> Could do with hiding the text until you reveal it, though.
00:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, no, in the sense that we made all the mistakes that article mentions
00:21:28 <Bike> http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Discourse/Narrative/michotte-demo.swf
00:21:53 <Bike> Not sure I'd call that apophenia, exactly...
00:22:14 <Fiora> that makes a lot of sense
00:22:37 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i worry about that stuf sometimes too. i have ideas for games but think about things like "well, realistically not that many people would be dying in a war, let alone at the hands of one (player) character" but of course that's totally irrelevant
00:22:39 <Fiora> @oeis 2,3,5,13,65533
00:22:40 <lambdabot> Ackermann's function A(n,0).[1,2,3,5,13,65533]
00:22:43 <kmc> @oeis 1, 11, 21, 1211
00:22:43 <lambdabot> Look and Say sequence: describe the previous term! (method A - initial term ...
00:23:42 <Bike> I like how you can easily take the message of the article to real life, heh
00:23:54 <Bike> "people really don't have time to consider the dynamics of even the ten thousand people in their town"
00:24:58 <zzo38> Look and Say is also called many other things, but really it is just runlength encoding
00:25:07 <Fiora> I guess it's like, how the simulation acts vs how it works
00:25:15 <Fiora> that emergent behavior is okay, but it has to match up with expectations of what makes sense
00:25:29 <Fiora> I guess now I'm thinking of simcity traffic... XD
00:26:05 <kmc> @pl (\x -> [show $ length x, [head x]])
00:26:08 <lambdabot> ap ((:) . (show $) . length) ((: []) . flip ((:) . head) [])
00:26:08 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
00:27:22 <Bike> Fiora: what i'm getting out of it is kind of that people don't really know or care about it making sense, they want to play a game.
00:27:29 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw? <-- well the manual listed a couple
00:28:06 <Fiora> Bike: well like, it has to make sense to their mind so they can understand how it works
00:28:09 <zzo38> Bike: It depends what game, isn't it?
00:28:50 <Fiora> like in simcity people are like "wow these sims are incredibly dumb and don't do the sensible thing, so my brain-ideas of road structures don't work, because the simulation doesn't match intuition"?
00:28:55 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
00:29:12 <Fiora> and it's not like, specifically how the simulation is implemented, but whether it matches common sense, so it's understandable
00:29:55 <Fiora> at least that's how it feels I don't know
00:30:05 <Bike> well, yeah, i'm not getting that out of the article though...
00:30:13 <Bike> also now i'm thinking of the Lem story simcity is based on argh
00:30:40 <Fiora> I guess my interpretation of the article is just that, it doesn't matter how fancy your simulation is, it matters that the product of that simulation makes sense to the players and fits in their mental model of the game?
00:30:45 <Fiora> so that they can play with it and have fun with it
00:30:51 <Fiora> instead of it being some complex, inscrutable monster
00:31:36 <kmc> @pl \x -> (show $ length x) ++ [head x]
00:31:38 <Fiora> also oh gosh the worst feeling in a sim game
00:31:40 <lambdabot> ap ((++) . id show . length) ((: []) . head)
00:31:40 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
00:31:43 <kmc> very odd that the result includes 'id show'
00:31:46 <Fiora> is like when you see something going wrong, like a badly optimized trade route or something
00:31:51 <Fiora> and you /can't figure out how to make it better/
00:31:58 <Fiora> because the simulation is too complicated or weird
00:32:10 <Fiora> so you keep poking at something hoping to twist it into doing what you want
00:32:50 <Bike> heh, like pathfinding in an RTS
00:32:54 <Bike> "no you fucking morons turn around"
00:32:59 <Bike> i guess that's why they added waypoints
00:34:07 <kmc> > iterate(concatMap(((++).show.length)<*>((:[]).head)).group)"1"
00:34:08 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:34:56 * Fiora tries to think of something she's played that was really egregious like that
00:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i think the point of the article was meant to just be that
00:35:51 <Bike> you could go the other way and make Lemmings :D
00:35:57 <Fiora> oh! Star Drive, that grand strategy master of orion type thing that came out a bit ago. the automated freighter system to move stuff around was really inscrutable and because the movement of freighters took so long it was really hard to get feedback on exactly what was moving where, and I constantly had planets running out of food
00:36:12 <Bike> at least it was realistic
00:36:24 <Fiora> and you could sort of mitigate it with tons of food storage but
00:36:43 <Fiora> well yes there's something fun about a game where crossing the map with your fleet takes 30 minutes XD
00:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> but yeah, your aim is to simulate things that can be easily and intuitively modelled by the player
00:37:35 <Fiora> I kinda feel like it also helps to have windows into the simulation, so it's not opaque
00:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (with the exception of like DF and lemmings where the craziness of the sim is half the fun)
00:37:48 <Fiora> like, so you can see more of the lower-level numbers
00:37:48 <Bike> i meant lemmings as being simplistic
00:38:02 <Bike> since they pretty much just go forward and all
00:38:13 <Bike> i just meant it's not very simulatey, intentionally of course
00:39:05 <zzo38> iterate (rle >=> \(x, y) -> [x, y]) [1]
00:39:12 <Bike> Fiora: "research ability gained: our engineers have found an exploit in the fabric of reality. you can now watch the processor registers"
00:39:42 <Fiora> that reminds me of one of the mods I loved in civ4, one of the features it added was like lots of little things like that
00:40:00 <zzo38> Bike: It resembles some D&D spell I wrote once called "Break Into Debugger"
00:40:02 <Fiora> so you could see how much effect a new building would have in the tooltip (not just "+10% science" but the actual + based on the current science)
00:40:16 <Fiora> or like, a breakdown of all the odds-multipliers in combat and how they affect things
00:40:24 <Fiora> so everything made so much more instant sense
00:43:43 <oerjan> > iterate((<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1"
00:43:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[GHC.Types.Char]' with `GHC.Types.Char'
00:43:46 <zzo38> kmc: You wrote some Haskell program for "look and say", but I like the one I wrote is better, or perhaps like this: lookAndSay = iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1];
00:44:04 <oerjan> :t [show.length,take 1]
00:44:21 <oerjan> :t (<**>[show.length,take 1])
00:44:41 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you like my way better, or your way, or the other way?
00:44:47 <Bike> http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/ so this is pretty darkly funny
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00:46:31 <oerjan> zzo38: unless all the functions you used are in lambdabot's default environment, i don't think yours counts
00:47:21 <zzo38> (I also don't know if either function I wrote exists in any package, although I did define them myself.)
00:47:40 <oerjan> > iterate(concat.(<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1"
00:47:41 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:48:22 <zzo38> Or you can use let to define them within your expression, like let { ... } in ... if you prefer that way.
00:48:24 <Fiora> @oeis 341,561,645,115,1387
00:48:36 <Fiora> @oeis 561,1105,1729,2465
00:48:37 <lambdabot> Carmichael numbers: composite numbers n such that a^(n-1) == 1 (mod n) for e...
00:49:05 <NihilistDandy> There's a book site that gets mentioned here periodically, but I can't remember the name of it. Lots of CS and math books. Any thoughts?
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00:50:36 <Bike> that's pretty vague, man
00:51:02 <Bike> also all the cool kids just google stuff and pirate it.
00:51:34 <NihilistDandy> I know, there was just a specific one that occasionally gets mentioned.
00:52:14 <NihilistDandy> I mainly like it because of the selection. I don't have any difficulty pirating when necessary, this was just a convenient place
00:52:45 <zzo38> > let { runLengthEncode = map (length &&& head) . group; tupleToList (x, y) = [x, y]; } in iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1]
00:52:46 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[2,1],[1,2,1,1],[1,1,1,2,2,1],[3,1,2,2,1,1],[1,3,1,1,2,2,2,1],[1...
00:53:12 <kmc> > let f c d n | n == 0 = z | e == d = f (c+1) d r | otherwise = 100 * f 1 e r + z where z = 10*c + d; (r,e) = n `divMod` 10 in iterate (f 0 1) 1
00:53:13 <lambdabot> [1,11,21,1211,111221,312211,13112221,1113213211,31131211131221,132113111231...
00:53:34 <oerjan> > iterate(sequence[show.length,take 1]<=<group)"1"
00:53:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `GHC.Base.String'
00:53:50 * Bike makes gagging gesture
00:54:02 <oerjan> :t sequence[show.length,take 1]
00:54:12 <Bike> but i don't think i've seen that anyway NihilistDandy, sorry. closest i can think of is readscheme but i haven't really seen it mentioned here.
00:54:53 <NihilistDandy> I'll have to go digging through the logs. It was either here or #haskell-blah, though I think it was both
00:55:21 <oerjan> > iterate(join.sequence[show.length,take 1]<=<group)"1"
00:55:21 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
00:55:21 <Fiora> biiike what's polylog(n)
00:56:08 <Bike> a polynomial in log
00:56:15 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylogarithmic_function
00:56:21 <Bike> like, a polynomial of log(n)
00:56:39 <Fiora> so like, log(n)^C ?
00:56:39 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo might be the one who mentioned it to me, now that I think of it. That or elliott. Though, given my memory, it might as well have been byorgey
00:56:46 <Bike> fiora: log(n) is polylog(n), as is log(n)³ and 3*log(n)⁴ - log(n)²
00:56:55 <kmc> oerjan: nice
00:57:17 <Fiora> so like, why is 2^(log(n)^c) not polynomial?
00:57:34 <Bike> uh... because that's not a polynomial? it's exponential in log(n).
00:57:46 <Fiora> but isn't it... not exponential in N?
00:57:50 <Fiora> I guess I'm confused >_<
00:58:18 <Fiora> like it's um... 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n)) ... c times
00:58:24 <Fiora> so that's... n*n*n*n... c times
00:58:28 <Fiora> or am I terrible at math
00:58:41 <Bike> ^ isn't associative
00:59:03 <Bike> you changed 2^(log(n)^c) to (2^log(n))^c
00:59:20 <Fiora> but isn't 2^(log(n)^2) equal to 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n))?
00:59:26 <Fiora> oh. that's 2^(2log(n))
00:59:46 <Bike> example: (2^3)^4 = fucking gigantic, 2^(3^4) = 4096
00:59:51 <Bike> 2417851639229258349412352 i guess
01:00:00 <Bike> reverse the order there.
01:00:32 <Fiora> so 2^(log(n)^c) is equal to n^(what)? *does math
01:01:30 <Bike> it equals (((2^log(n))^log(n))^log(n))^...
01:01:39 <oerjan> > iterate(shows.length<$>take 1<=<group)"1"
01:01:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Show.ShowS' with `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:01:47 <Bike> um, probably. i am also bad at math.
01:02:00 <Fiora> 2^(log(n)^c) == n^f(n)
01:02:05 <Fiora> logN(2^(log(n)^c)) = f(n)
01:02:15 <Fiora> (log(n)^c)/log(n) = f(n)
01:02:22 <Fiora> log(n)^(c-1) = f(n) ?
01:02:37 <Fiora> so n^(log(n)^(c-1) == 2^(log(n)^c)?
01:02:54 <Bike> that's definitely not polynomial in n though
01:03:07 <Fiora> I guess I see where quasi-polynomial comes from then
01:03:15 <Fiora> it's like, it's not polynomial but it's not /that much bigger/
01:03:24 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1
01:03:26 <Bike> it's subexponential definitely
01:03:39 <Bike> "In mathematics, a quasi-polynomial (pseudo-polynomial) is a generalization of polynomials. While the coefficients of a polynomial come from a ring, the coefficients of quasi-polynomials are instead periodic functions with integral period." oh christ fiora
01:03:46 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1<=<group
01:03:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]'
01:03:53 <Fiora> I meant the complexity class >_<
01:04:02 <oerjan> :t (shows.length<$>take 1)<=<group
01:04:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]'
01:04:07 <Bike> yeah i know :P
01:04:11 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-polynomial_time#Quasi-polynomial_time
01:04:20 <Bike> "Quasi-polynomial time algorithms are algorithms which run slower than polynomial time, yet not so slow as to be exponential time" yeah i'd rather say subexponential honestly
01:04:44 <Fiora> so like... the expression they have there
01:04:52 <Fiora> that can describe *all* running times that are neither exponential nor polynomial?
01:05:05 <Bike> um, between them, probably?
01:05:05 <Fiora> erm, I mean, that are in between
01:05:13 <Fiora> so like, there's nothing bigger than QP but smaller than EXP?
01:05:39 <Bike> maybe like 2^(iterated log of n) is smaller
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01:05:58 <Bike> there are probably any number of weird functions you could put in there, they just don't come up in practice?
01:06:27 <Fiora> I guess... it just feels like "subexponential" is a bigger thing than just that?
01:06:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf or something?
01:06:38 <Bike> oh here's an example
01:06:40 <Bike> "Another example is the best-known algorithm for the graph isomorphism problem, which runs in time 2O(√(n log n))."
01:06:47 <Bike> er, that's 2^O.
01:07:13 <zzo38> Is there a logic that can have not only the "material implication" but also the "tristate implication" (if the left side is false, the result is high-impedance)?
01:07:14 <oerjan> :t shows.length<$>take 1
01:07:27 <oerjan> how does that make sense...
01:09:18 <oerjan> :t (shows.length<$>take 1)"11"
01:09:51 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone is making a esolang "BelalCode"
01:09:54 <oerjan> > (shows.length<$>take 1)"11" ""
01:11:04 <oerjan> > iterate((shows.length<*>take 1)<=<group)"1"
01:11:05 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
01:11:30 <oerjan> > iterate(shows.length<*>take 1<=<group)"1"
01:11:31 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113...
01:11:48 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf?
01:17:38 <zzo38> "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin
01:18:05 <zzo38> "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin}." This seems to me something related to a pull-up resistor???
01:18:45 <Bike> classical logic hasn't got a "typically"...
01:19:08 <zzo38> I know; it isn't classical logic.
01:20:21 <Bike> i mean, what logical consequence are you talking about
01:21:34 <Bike> because i wouldn't call that a logical consequence and it seems plenty unintuitive besides
01:22:17 <zzo38> I agree it isn't really a logical consequence, but maybe in some logic it can be.
01:22:52 <zzo38> It seems related to a pull-up resistor somehow
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01:23:26 <Bike> i don't think i want a logic where you can conclude a definite from a 'typically'...
01:24:34 <zzo38> Or to Inform 7, if you write something like "A bird can typically fly. A penguin is a bird. A penguin cannot fly. Tweety is a bird. Tweety is a penguin." (I don't know if this is actually a valid Inform 7 code, though)
01:25:49 <shachaf> As they say: All penguins are mortal. Tweety is mortal. Tweety is a penguin.
01:26:57 <zzo38> (I meant "A penguin is a kind of bird." but still maybe it is wrong)
01:27:11 <Bike> http://www.futek.com/images/pages/aboutus/Element_X.jpg it's good to know other industries have hiring practices as bizarre as IT
01:27:29 <zzo38> (In fact it probably is wrong; I don't know how to program in Inform 7, nor do I know how to program in Inform 6, actually)
01:28:12 <shachaf> Most philosophers are jerks. Socrates was a philosopher. Socrates was a jerk.
01:30:06 <zzo38> I agree that the conclusion is no good; I am just saying that maybe there can be some kind of logic that can have such things.
01:30:30 <shachaf> Who said the conclusion is no good?
01:30:48 <Bike> not wrt socrates. fuck that guy.
01:31:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe it is, but that doesn't make the conclusion good, any more than "If 2+2=4 therefore the sun is yellow" is good.
01:31:21 <Sgeo> Is Inform proprietary?
01:31:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think it was once, but now it isn't, as far as I know.
01:32:40 <shachaf> kmc: I replaced my IRC window with a counter to see how many times I switched to it.
01:34:08 <shachaf> (But I think the "home position" for my fingers has one finger on the 8 key now...)
01:34:36 <Sgeo> "Art Evolution: Surprisingly averted, whether intentionally or what. Rather sadly, there has been very little change in Illiad's art style from his very beginning strips to his most current - in almost 13 years his artistic style has remained very ... rough.
01:34:42 <Sgeo> (about User Friendly)
01:35:00 <kmc> has it changed in any other way
01:35:35 <Sgeo> It stopped producing new strips back in 2009...
01:35:38 <Sgeo> That's a change
01:35:45 <Bike> is it sgeo? is it?
01:35:50 <Bike> did user friendly ever exist outside of your mind
01:36:30 <Sgeo> Also, the introduction of new characters totally counts as a change. The book I bought as a kid started with the introduction of Dust Puppy)
01:39:20 <Sgeo> http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
01:40:09 <Bike> you bought a book of this shit?
01:40:28 <kmc> i read a lot of Dilbert as a small child
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01:42:12 <Sgeo> Bike, that's how I found out about it
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01:46:08 <Sgeo> I still read Dilbert every day >.>
01:46:32 <kmc> but it's bad
01:46:32 <Sgeo> Used to save a copy of every strip onto my computer when I was younger. Glad I don't need to do that anymore
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01:54:03 <oerjan> gah i tried using the formatted logs but the text is huge and zooming in IE 10 breaks the formatting...
01:59:56 <shachaf> Sgeo: I used to have all the `olist comics on my server!
02:00:03 <shachaf> In a few minutes I will again.
02:00:17 <shachaf> Does giantitp.com throttle or something?
02:00:33 <shachaf> By throttle I don't mean throttle.
02:00:39 <shachaf> I mean do they get upset if you download a lot.
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02:01:59 <kmc> do they 'throttle' you
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02:04:15 <zzo38> I have a robots.txt that has a command to slow down when making automated mirrors like this, although wget doesn't understand that command, so you have to use its own command.
02:04:48 <shachaf> Does gopher support it, though?
02:05:02 <shachaf> Or is gopher auto-throttled by the number of gopher users in the world?
02:05:22 <zzo38> Well, actually I made up a format for gopher to support it, although I don't know if it is used.
02:06:02 <zzo38> Access the selector named ".robot" (without quotes) in my computer, it does includes the command to slow down.
02:06:25 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/0.robot
02:06:57 <zzo38> The 0 means the type code, it is a plain text file.
02:07:39 <zzo38> There are other type codes such as 1 for a menu, 7 if the user can enter the query text and then it is a menu, and 9 for downloading binary files.
02:08:09 <shachaf> What if I just use a space?
02:08:47 <zzo38> It depends on the client whether or not it will work.
02:09:18 <zzo38> The type code isn't send to the server so the server won't care if the client supports it or not.
02:09:29 <shachaf> Did you write your own gopher server?
02:09:50 <zzo38> Yes, but even if I didn't write my own gopher server, the same thing is true.
02:10:11 <shachaf> Is that why it doesn't work with most gopher clients I've tried?
02:11:14 <zzo38> No. It is that your gopher clients may be broken by using a slash as the selector string even when it is blank; someone (maybe it was you?) test it and said it did that. But there is a work around: Use "root" as the selector string.
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02:18:02 <NihilistDandy> I still haven't found any usable Gopher clients on OS X. Any recommendations?
02:18:26 <NihilistDandy> Then again, I think zzo38 is the only reason I've ever had cause to use gopher, so maybe I don't need it :D
02:18:48 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I don't know. I wrote one in shell scripts (although it was written in MinGW and probably needs to be modified), so maybe that one works.
02:18:55 <Sgeo_> HTTP proxies for Gopher acceptable?
02:19:19 <zzo38> Sgeo_: For my server no; the router blocks it.
02:19:52 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Because the proxies won't make it so that Google won't index those proxies.
02:20:46 <zzo38> If you have a Windows emulator or some way to compile VB6 programs for non-Windows computers, you can also try Visgopher.
02:22:23 <zzo38> Yes, you can use that.
02:24:30 <shachaf> In languages with first-class continuations can you get the behavior of arbitrary monads to seem first-class?
02:25:50 <Sgeo_> zzo38 has Gopher, and I have Active Worlds
02:26:01 <Sgeo_> Except AW is proprietary I guess
02:26:18 <Sgeo_> shachaf, yes I think
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02:28:25 <Sgeo_> Dammit what's that library I fell in love with when I last looked at Scala
02:28:29 <Sgeo_> That's what I want to link shachaf to
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02:28:59 <kmc> it has the zzo38 nature
02:29:47 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: Simplicity is one.
02:29:54 <Sgeo_> shachaf, https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads
02:30:19 <kmc> is there gopher over ssl
02:30:30 <zzo38> Also, the screen does not have to render HTML/CSS/etc which aren't suitable for it.
02:30:45 <zzo38> kmc: Probably you can do it if you want to; I don't know if any existing servers do.
02:31:10 <Sgeo_> But it's useless to have a server that does it if no clients do it
02:31:17 <kmc> wouldn't the gopher equivalent of SSL be SSL?
02:31:23 <Sgeo_> Unless it encourages clients to adapt it
02:31:26 <kmc> it's application protocol agnostic
02:32:04 <kmc> which is occasionally annoying, e.g. the duplication of HTTP Host: header and SSL's SNI
02:32:13 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is why it doesn't matter, if it uses it, if the client supports it, etc, just use something that allow you to make SSL connection with normal connections, and then clearly it will work.
02:32:19 <shachaf> Hmm, drracket is kind of nice as a lightweight experimenting with code thing.
02:32:55 <kmc> i think it's annoying to use Racket as a Scheme implementation
02:33:02 <kmc> if you do #lang r5rs then you lose out on libraries or something
02:33:37 <Sgeo_> Libraries that R5RS has no standard way to access anyway?
02:33:55 <zzo38> Maybe it could be a pseudo-TLD so that if you connect to "example.org.ssl" then the DNS client will interfere with it and make it a SSL connection locally in the network driver.
02:34:10 <kmc> zzo38: that is a strange idea, one that I kind of like
02:34:35 <kmc> oh well one problem is that #lang r5rs prints cons cells in a weird way
02:34:52 <kmc> Racket distinguishes mutable and immutable cons cells, and the former are written like {2 . 3} rather than (2 . 3)
02:35:01 <kmc> and r5rs cons creates a mutable cell, naturally
02:35:46 <kmc> hm but it's different if you select "R5RS" from the menu, it seems
02:36:20 <kmc> shachaf: http://docs.racket-lang.org/plot/ looks neat
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02:40:47 <Sgeo_> I ... don't think I like how read console:// works in Rebol
02:40:59 <Sgeo_> If stdin is the console, it will only read one line
02:41:16 <Sgeo_> So can't really do cat with it... I think
02:42:26 <Sgeo_> I/O is very schemey in Rebol. Including Tcp
02:42:31 <Sgeo_> There's a tcp:// and a udp://
02:43:02 <zzo38> That logic about birds that can typically fly seems to me like pull-up resistors and pull-down resistors, kind of. Isn't it?
02:46:37 <Sgeo_> Here are the schemes available on my copy of Rebol3
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02:47:31 <Sgeo_> system:// console:// callback:// file:// dir:// event:// dns:// tcp:// clipboard:// http://
02:52:27 <shachaf> help how do delimited continuations work
02:52:50 <Bike> pray to oleg and ye shall receive
02:53:26 <Sgeo_> shachaf, when you shift, what you're shifting takes full control
02:53:38 <Sgeo_> But it's given an argument representing what would have been the rest of the computation
02:53:57 <Sgeo_> If it wants, it can feed that "rest of the computation" a value as many or as few times as it wants, and use those results as it pleases
02:54:04 <Sgeo_> And whatever it returns is the final result
02:55:01 <Sgeo_> It's much like >>=... >>= gets as an argument a function, which it can use as many or as few times as it wants to determine its final result
02:56:36 <Sgeo_> do { a <- ma; b <- mb }... the first >>= that that translates into gets to choose whether the rest of do block gets run at all, or how many times, and what happens to those... exactly like the expression given to shift gets to choose what happens to the rest of the computation, whether to use it and how many times in calculating its final result
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03:15:00 <shachaf> trying to write continuationy code in scheme and missing the feeling of fighting the type checker
03:15:23 <tswett> Delimited continuations seem like the sort of thing that might have an equivalent in category theory.
03:16:16 -!- tswett has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU.
03:17:05 <NihilistDandy> shachaf: Implement overly strict and completely nonsensical typechecker in scheme, hth
03:17:41 <Bike> error compiling (+ 4 5): type mismatch: Even, Odd
03:18:06 <tswett> Don't be ridiculous. + isn't a valid operation on Odd.
03:18:28 <tswett> Medical foods are foods that are specially formulated and intended for the dietary management of a disease that has distinctive nutritional needs that cannot be met by normal diet alone.
03:18:31 <shachaf> tswett: That's why you get an error!
03:18:42 <tswett> I think you should implement a typechecker based on PID controllers and neural nets.
03:18:51 <Bike> ooh, that sounds exciting.
03:20:27 <tswett> Instead of declaring the entire program to be either correct or incorrect, it simply assigns an error value to every little piece of the program.
03:21:49 <tswett> Your program will still run no matter what, but it will attempt to spend more time running code with a lower error value.
03:22:00 <tswett> If all of the code has a high error value, the program will just run really slowly.
03:22:01 <NihilistDandy> Then deletes the line, like fuckitjs or certain versions of GHC
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03:41:13 <Sgeo_> ** Script error: cannot use write on port! value
03:41:19 <Sgeo_> destination (port! file! url! block!)
03:43:29 <Sgeo_> I can't even manage to write a cat program in Rebol
03:46:02 <NihilistDandy> Sgeo_: What are these advanced semantics in Rebol?
03:46:42 <Bike> @tell phantom_hoover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2RzY2Mzr94 game
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04:11:05 <zzo38> Did whoever added 'hazanavicius coraile oussama bin vodid muhammad jihad pirlgrimage "hello world" von dreyfus said' intend to make the BelalCode article? Well, it can be put back on in case it is actually made and that such a thing is working.
04:12:19 <Sgeo_> @tell Phantom_Hoover I'm going to design a Brainfuck-equivalent language.
04:13:12 <Sgeo_> (Not actually BF equiv. It won't be able to represent +- or >< or ]..[ or other such atrocities that I can think of.
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04:13:46 <zzo38> Actually I am one thought of things like that too, a kind of compression that cannot represent such things.
04:15:01 <shachaf> ion: kmc can confirm that anything + acid is a nice combination
04:15:26 <Sgeo_> So, my ideas: In some circumstances, some characters are impossible. With only 7 commands taken, there's room for one pseudocommand. Let that command expand into two commands on decompression. I _think_ that would work on random data
04:15:27 * pikhq snickers a bit at the PS4 press con at E3.
04:15:42 * pikhq shall sum it up for you: "Playstation: It's Not Xbox."
04:16:25 <Bike> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA
04:16:28 <Sgeo_> But let's try this: It expands into the previous character twice. And, if the previous was a pseudocharacter, then that pseudocharacter's character to expand into 4 times
04:17:04 <Sgeo_> Don't know if RLE might be a better idea
04:17:09 <Sgeo_> But this is certainly interesting
04:17:22 <Sgeo_> Are there circumstances that would give room for two pseudocharacters?
04:17:51 <Sgeo_> erm, pseudocommands
04:18:57 <Sgeo_> Also, are there better ways to do fewer than 3 bits per command? Since each command after 1 is restricted doesn't need 3 bits, what ways besides a pseudocharacter that expands into two could take advantage of that?
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04:23:59 <zzo38> Use some dynamic Huffman, maybe, with the checking of what is redundancy, possibly in more ways that your specification.
04:25:26 <zzo38> Someone wrote comment about Malbolge, on the "99 bottles of beer" program, the comment: HOW can human (without drinking 99 bottles of bear) write in this language???
04:25:37 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Arithmetic encoding?
04:25:43 <zzo38> Can you write in this language if you drink 99 bottles of beer (or of bear)?
04:26:05 <pikhq> One can get fractional bits that way.
04:27:38 <Sgeo_> I need 3 bits/command most of the time, it's only on occasion that I can get away with a little less
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04:32:50 <kmc> shachaf: disconfirm
04:40:29 <shachaf> http://ericlippert.com/2013/06/10/construction-destruction/ was pretty confusing when I thought it was talking about C++.
04:41:03 <kmc> ah it's C#
04:41:28 <kmc> there are small syntactic clues but i definitely can imagine skimming it and thinking it's C++
04:42:01 <Sgeo_> ....system/ports/output isn't completely implemented yet
04:43:45 <kmc> what was the context of your acid claim anywaychaf
04:44:01 <shachaf> 21:14 <ion> Btw, tables + acid-state is a nice combination.
04:44:19 <kmc> i wish there were some state of the US particularly known for its acid
04:44:20 <Sgeo_> Of course Rebol 2 is more stable. It's also proprietary.
04:44:23 <shachaf> in the past kmc has compared """acid-state""" to haskell
04:44:31 <Sgeo_> I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language
04:44:36 <kmc> EVERYONE WANTS IT
04:44:39 <kmc> DEADFISH IN MIRANDA NOWWW
04:44:53 <shachaf> (acid-state is a drugz euphemizm btw)
04:45:02 <kmc> we're on the same page shacha
04:45:07 <kmc> (page of blotter acid that is)
04:45:14 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Well, I don't, but you can do it if you want it, I suppose.
04:45:33 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I want Rebol 3 to be in a half decent state
04:46:17 <kmc> https://www.google.com/search?q=blotter+paper+lsd&tbm=isch
04:46:29 <Sgeo_> read-char: does [to string! read/part console:// 1]
04:46:33 <shachaf> plz uze encrypted.google.com thx hth
04:47:19 <shachaf> I don't remember what it oes better but it does something better.
04:47:25 <Sgeo_> (does is just a convenient way to make an anonymous func that doesn't take arguments)
04:48:24 <Sgeo_> "According to Google, the difference is with handling referrer information when clicking on an ad."
04:48:31 <Sgeo_> http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/32367/what-is-the-difference-between-https-google-com-and-https-encrypted-google-c
04:48:59 <shachaf> kmc: btw once i consumed a whole bunch of acid and it messed with my tongue for days
04:49:14 <shachaf> (i'm referring to citric acid * malic acid of course)
04:50:36 <shachaf> Should I get in the habit of using * instead of +?
04:50:47 <shachaf> When you have both of two things, instead of either of two things.
04:51:31 <shachaf> E.g. tables * acid-state is a nice combination.
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04:52:33 <shachaf> whoa dude it's like a u with another u above it
04:52:42 <kmc> a u with another u's hat on
04:56:04 <shachaf> U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT
04:57:32 <kmc> itym ACCENT INDICATOR + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE U + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE K
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05:01:49 <kmc> what does "seuta keulaepeuteu" mean
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05:03:23 <kmc> oh it's a romanization of the korean name for StarCraft?
05:03:47 <shachaf> it means "bug in google translate"
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05:04:29 <kmc> google doesn't do phonetic latin typing for korean
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05:05:49 <kmc> korean: secretly related to finnish?
05:07:44 <Bike> i'm sure some linguist has proposed that
05:07:51 <Bike> finnish isn't IE either!!
05:08:26 <Bike> http://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-the-Finnish-and-Korean-languages-may-share-a-common-root i fucking love quora
05:12:03 <Bike> wow why does that work
05:12:46 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural%E2%80%93Altaic_languages oh fuck me it really is a theory.
05:18:02 <NihilistDandy> kmc: I've been rather miffed about the lack of phonetic typing for Korean in Google Translate, recently
05:18:20 <Bike> how is korean typed?
05:18:38 <kmc> one jamo at a time
05:18:43 <Bike> don't be a smartass please
05:18:58 <Bike> i was reading about burmese input yesterday and am now reasonably sure typing is impossible
05:19:15 <NihilistDandy> It's actually not bad once you understand hangul, a bit
05:19:21 <shachaf> is that the dual of rean (categoriez joke)
05:19:32 <kmc> maybe that's why they don't have internet in burma
05:20:26 <kmc> why do you need those
05:21:09 <kmc> reading the packaging of Shin Ramyun
05:21:49 <Bike> "Today, a good working knowledge of Chinese characters is still important for anyone who wishes to study older texts (up to about the 1990s), or anyone who wishes to read scholarly texts in the humanities."
05:21:58 <Bike> hm. (though i think that's a typo for "1890s")
05:22:10 <NihilistDandy> Well, why did I learn Latin? To see connections between all the Romance languages. Learn hanja for the same reason one learns hanzi or kanji, I guess
05:22:32 <Bike> does that really work, i mean, korean and chinese aren't related like romance languages are
05:23:18 <kmc> is the choice of symbols based on pronunciation or meaning or a terrible mix of both?
05:23:40 <zzo38> Learn Latin because it is a dead language so existing words and grammar and so on no longer changes/evolves (although new words are occasionally made up, still)
05:24:10 <Bike> kmc: iirc kanji have never been pronounced very much like chinese?
05:24:32 <Bike> «One way of adapting hanja to write Korean in such systems (such as Gugyeol) was to represent native Korean grammatical particles and other words solely according to their pronunciation. For example, Gugyeol uses the characters 爲尼 to transcribe the Korean word "hăni", in modern Korean, that means "does, and so". However, in Chinese, the same characters are read as the expression "wéi ní," meaning "becoming a nun."»
05:24:47 <zzo38> Bike: Kind of, especially in compound words, but still it is an approximation.
05:25:01 <Bike> shachaf: bikepodes
05:25:43 <NihilistDandy> I don't know much Chinese, but apparently in Mandarin the sound of a character is derived from the main radical and then that is effected by another radical (usually to indicate the consonant sound)
05:26:02 <zzo38> NihilistDandy: I think I read about that, too
05:26:07 <Bike> i was reading a korean comic and a high school student insulted another student's mislinguistics by saying King Sejong would be rolling in his grave
05:26:10 <Bike> so that was weird
05:26:30 <NihilistDandy> Japanese pronunciation of kanji is similar to the Mandarin, but the "Japaneseness" is still quite evident
05:26:43 <NihilistDandy> Once you'ev seen a lot of the words next to each other, the patterns are easier to spot
05:26:57 <NihilistDandy> I don't know enough Korean, yet, to say anything similar
05:27:32 <shachaf> speaking of korean comics did you see that terrible korean comic
05:27:47 <Bike> um, i've read a lot of terrible comics from various places
05:27:55 <Bike> maybe i read whatever you're referring to? it's possible!
05:28:01 <shachaf> @google that terrible korean comic
05:28:02 <lambdabot> http://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=350217&no=20&weekday=tue
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05:28:06 <shachaf> terrible in the sense of unpleasant
05:28:21 <zzo38> Japanese kanji has different reading, kun-yomi, on-yomi, and in one page of the Akagi manga I have even seen a kanji that is using the English reading!
05:28:25 <Bike> oh is it the horror story one
05:29:24 <zzo38> I didn't know they used the English reading of kanji, ever, but they did just once in Akagi.
05:31:00 <Bike> it's weird how like every korean webcomic is on naver. whoever runs that's got a pretty good monopoly
05:32:26 <Bike> yeah it's pretty mediocre but that's horror for you.
05:34:02 <shachaf> wait the version i saw was in english
05:34:06 <shachaf> is this even the same comic
05:34:27 <Bike> i;m so fucking helped right now
05:36:06 <kmc> i don't understand why programmers get paid so much money
05:36:38 <Bike> because they're covered in shit
05:36:40 <kmc> how much do plumbers get paid
05:36:56 <kmc> it's true that most programming is plumbing
05:37:34 <kmc> what distinguishes the $35/hr plumbers from the $75/hr plumbers
05:37:43 <kmc> also how easy/hard is it to get 40hrs of work per week
05:37:46 <Bike> minimalism and craftsmanship
05:38:01 <NihilistDandy> Experience, I guess. I think it's largely an apprenticeship sort of trade
05:38:40 <kmc> i think there have been various proposals to reorganize programming as an apprenticeship sort of trade
05:38:45 <kmc> i don't know if it's a good idea or not
05:39:08 <kmc> i do feel like most of the practical stuff I know I've learned on the job rather than in school
05:39:22 <kmc> but the stuff I learned in school has enriched my life and indirectly makes me better at practical stuff too
05:39:44 <Bike> i wonder how many people are even qualified to compare and contrast training/certification models
05:40:30 <Bike> we should find a plumber who dabbles in database programming
05:40:52 <kmc> probably relatively few
05:40:56 <Gregor> The problem with apprenticeship-style jobs of all sorts is that it's hard to get into.
05:41:02 <Bike> i guess academia is... sort of apprenticey...
05:41:03 <kmc> probably almost no intersection with the people who write blog posts about how programmers should be taught / managed / hired
05:41:04 <Gregor> Plumbers usually have plumbers in the family.
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05:41:34 <kmc> Bike: well once you're a tenured professor you aren't getting your hands dirty so much anymore
05:41:36 <Bike> @google plumbing blog
05:41:39 <lambdabot> Title: All Area Plumbing Blog - Ask The Plumber Blog | Plumbing Advice | Affordable ...
05:41:42 <kmc> much of the work is done by the apprentices
05:41:52 <Bike> kmc: tht's it. we need professors to take up plumbing
05:42:06 <kmc> i was reflecting earlier on the fact that I don't know a single person who dropped out of grad school and regrets the decision
05:42:32 <kmc> which is not to say nobody should do grad school, but if you're on the fence about it then maybe it's not for you
05:42:32 <Gregor> Unless your goal is to be a professor, grad school in CS is almost totally pointless.
05:42:35 <kmc> like startups!
05:42:38 <Bike> as someone who's intending to go to grad school it's uh, there's a lot of reasons not to be encouraged
05:42:44 <Bike> (not that it's in CS)
05:42:45 <kmc> Gregor: yes, in fact you can do much better research in industry, in many cases
05:42:48 <kmc> Bike: bio?
05:42:56 <Bike> weird neurocrap, hopefully
05:43:05 <kmc> i know someone doing neurocrap at Brown
05:43:29 <Gregor> But if you're in math, you can't make anything of your degree at any level.
05:43:33 <kmc> math grad students seem abnormally happy compared to CS or experimental science ones
05:43:37 <Bike> related: did you know there are articles like "An implantable wireless neural interface for recording cortical circuit dynamics in moving primates" in real journals that you can really read
05:43:42 <Bike> kmc: it's all the amphetamines
05:43:43 <kmc> Gregor: are the days of hiring maths students in finance over?
05:43:49 <Gregor> kmc: I am the happiest human being alive.
05:43:58 <Bike> http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026010
05:44:32 <Bike> i've heard math grads are different from other grads though
05:44:38 <Bike> like you don't know what you're going to study, going in
05:44:56 <kmc> yeah, I'm told that you spend your first few years reading a few of those yellow death books and working all the problems
05:45:18 <kmc> at which point you know which sub-sub-sub-field of math you want to study, and you find the six people in the world who do the same
05:45:28 <kmc> Springer Verlag Graduate Texts in Mathematics
05:45:36 <kmc> http://math.arizona.edu/~savitt/GTM.html
05:45:37 <Bike> oh god, the horror
05:45:37 <NihilistDandy> Bike: That's pretty true. I think I'm going to focus on algebra, but that's pretty vague
05:45:47 <kmc> and then you just like chill with those six people
05:46:00 <Bike> maybe math should like be split up
05:46:05 <Bike> it sure seems like there's a lot of it!
05:46:22 <kmc> and more as quickly as people can think it up
05:46:30 <Bike> like wtf does an algebraist have to talk about with a dynamicist most of the time
05:46:40 <Bike> it's like if you grouped ethologists and immunologists together
05:46:40 <NihilistDandy> So much. Calculus taught me that continuous math is weird and unpleasant to me, so everything I like to do now is discrete and perfect and beautiful :D
05:46:50 <Bike> tsk. continuity 4 lyfe.
05:46:51 <coppro> Bike: hell, most schools have only a small department of math
05:46:53 <Gregor> Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs.
05:46:59 <coppro> our school does it right
05:47:04 <Bike> Gregor: can i have your autograph
05:47:13 <coppro> Gregor: the CBC put my name in an article, therefore I'm famous
05:47:16 <coppro> in fact, they quoted me
05:47:21 <Bike> wow, you really are a grad student
05:47:22 <NihilistDandy> I had Dummit for Algebra, so I feel pretty awesome :D
05:48:16 <Bike> another real neuroshit paper that's sci-fi as fuck is "Improving brain-machine interface performance by decoding intended future movements" but alas i lack pubmed access
05:49:05 <Bike> or well i guess it's JNE again hm
05:49:17 <Bike> http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026011/
05:49:30 <Bike> i wonder how the cyborg monkeys feel about all this
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05:57:19 <Bamba705> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me
05:57:20 -!- Bamba705 has left.
05:58:21 <kmc> ya got iBooted
05:58:42 <NihilistDandy> Bike: Sadly, my university's PubMed shit seems to have disappeared :(
05:59:10 <Bike> thanks anyway, i'll just have to content myself with CPG legs
06:08:23 <Bike> "iBooTer is the one of the best Booters on the internet. Cheap & Great attack strength with 24/7 Support!! So come join the Family" i'm excited
06:08:31 <NihilistDandy> Nevermind, Had to go to their terms of service to figure out what the hell service they offer.
06:09:16 <NihilistDandy> Also, for those prices I hope they actually deliver
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06:17:42 <shachaf> kmc: itym chiiiiiiiiip hth
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07:23:05 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU.
07:23:20 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU | nid wyf yn y swyddfa.
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08:36:50 <olsner> <Gregor> Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs. <-- what kind of stuffs?
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09:47:14 <fizzie> Want to take someone's offline friends? Just murder them and their friends will be all yours: that's how it works.
09:47:15 <olsner> fungot: Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website?
09:47:15 <fungot> olsner: but, it's this crazy/ wacky issue settled first, but it's a more familiar feeling, but never one to believe in love at all? is that the story?
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11:03:05 <Phantom_Hoover> so does anyone know the limit of (1/e)x^e as e -> 0 for positive x? i'm thinking it's ln x but i'm not sure
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11:05:34 <Fiora> wolfram alpha says it's infinity from positive direction, -inf from negative?
11:05:54 <Fiora> and the series expansion is 1/c + log(x) + c/2 * log(x)^2 + O(c^2)
11:05:59 <Fiora> so I guess that basically reduces to 1/c
11:09:04 <Fiora> because it thought e was the constant -_-
11:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (i got that expression by integrating x^(e-1) on the assumption that integration was continuous fwiw)
11:10:03 <Fiora> so I did um... 1/c * x^c as c->0
11:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> that log x term in the series expansion looks tantalising though
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12:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> when x=e (the actual constant, that is) the limit isn't well-defined
12:08:23 <Fiora> it's 1/e + log(x) so it's not well defined to begin with is it?
12:08:28 <Fiora> since 1/0 is well yeah
12:09:43 <Fiora> the log(x) would be swamped, I'd think
12:10:46 <Taneb> Should I buy Scrolls?
12:12:31 <Taneb> Not as in bits of paper
12:12:56 <elliott> "We do not want to be the first software in history to be delayed due to a dwindling supply of cats" -- apple at wwdc
12:13:07 <elliott> finally apple tackles the real issues
12:15:15 <Taneb> That seems to be exactly the opposite problem Bay 12 games is facing
12:22:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you've impressed the awfulness of their coding style upon be sufficiently to deter me from applying to work for Mojang as a programmer
12:22:39 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
12:22:41 <fizzie> fungot: Will you, yourself, bring an end to all of this?
12:22:41 <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!
12:22:43 <Taneb> And the quality of planning of Notch
12:22:53 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot to tell the bestest thing!
12:23:01 <Taneb> But seeing as Notch had little contribution to Scrolls...
12:23:43 <fizzie> Yesterday, in Lugano, when we went to the hotel to pick up our luggage, an Indian-looking woman came to me and asked if I was "the creator of Minecraft"; apparently her son was completely convinced I was.
12:23:59 <fizzie> Though I don't look at all like Notch, except for having a similar hat.
12:24:17 <fizzie> I do (allegedly, anyway) resemble Jeb a bit, though, so maybe it was just a communications problem.
12:24:23 <fizzie> (Not that I'm either of them.)
12:24:46 <fizzie> Perhaps all Scandinavians look alike to "them".
12:25:15 <fizzie> Oh, it was the day before yesterday. Anyway.
12:32:07 <elliott> `learn fizzie is the creator of Minecraft.
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12:36:58 <fizzie> I don't really know about hats, but I have this thing that's a bit like one, I guess.
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15:05:49 <Taneb> Today I made a little emacs cheet sheet
15:07:13 <Taneb> I can barely read it
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15:48:53 <fizzie> You should configure a key combination in your Emacs to access it.
15:49:10 <fizzie> The key combination should be prominently listed on top of the cheat sheet, since you'll be needing it often.
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16:21:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, btw, thanks for your anthracite mod
16:21:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, anthracite. Thanthracite.
16:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe one day i should flesh that out and balance it (ahahaha)
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16:28:05 <Phantom_Hoover> did i give you the components that adjusted iron ore distribution, i don't remember
16:35:24 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, maybe, I've got loads of iron ore
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16:36:11 <Taneb> I've made a fortress that's 4 years old without trade
16:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> especially the magnetite deposits, those things are way too big to be in every other layer
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16:59:38 <elliott> http://www.sayitwithbacon.com set fire to america
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17:16:32 <mnoqy> the world's most tasteful gift
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17:21:28 <`0x00> this is a cool channel.
17:21:38 <`0x00> i found it randomly. has been around for a while?
17:22:00 <HackEgo> `0x00: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:22:04 <mnoqy> how long is a while
17:22:10 <mnoqy> it's been around like a week at least
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17:35:56 <mnoqy> yes its pretty amazing
17:36:44 <shachaf> @google 1 week in nanoseconds
17:37:17 <shachaf> @google 1 week in nanoseconds
17:37:24 <elliott> `frank 1 week -> nanoseconds
17:37:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: frank: not found
17:37:34 <mnoqy> `frink 1 week -> nanoseconds
17:37:52 <shachaf> oh lambdabot isn't even in here
17:38:22 <shachaf> I like how my lambdabot /query got messed up and renamed to /query Guestblahblahblah.
17:38:41 <elliott> he has a cron job or something running the *old* lambdabot
17:38:48 <elliott> which I then tried to "debug" the L.hs of
17:38:56 <elliott> not realising it was the old lambdabot
17:39:09 <shachaf> Messing up my /query isn't a very Caley behavior.
17:39:33 <shachaf> Oops, I just realized I closed my lambdabot window which had my list of suggestions for lambdabot.
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17:40:24 <shachaf> People in ##categorytheory were complaining about the absence of lambdabot.
17:40:32 <elliott> oh, is it not in the join list?
17:40:34 <shachaf> For some reason I'm not in the admin list... I wonder why.
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17:40:42 <mnoqy> ##categorytheory ?
17:41:01 <mnoqy> is that a good channel
17:41:32 <shachaf> a good channel is a dead channel
17:42:10 <shachaf> Other suggestions were to fix the quote thing to be more like HackEgo rather than the nick->quote nonsense.
17:42:27 <shachaf> 10:41 -!- `0x00 [~ping@u.nxsh.org] has joined ##categorytheory
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17:42:30 <elliott> well, it's nice that you can quote non-IRC things non-awkwardly
17:43:02 <shachaf> <SaulGorn> ... is just as non-awkward.
17:43:31 <elliott> 18:43:07 <elliott> > id18:43:09 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:43:32 <shachaf> alt. literally add "SaulGorn says: ..." to the quote database
17:43:35 <elliott> 18:43:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1506157215.show_M1506157215'18:43:09 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous18:43:09 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)18:43:09 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
17:43:40 <elliott> 18:43:11 <lambdabot> [7 @more lines]
17:43:53 <elliott> I wonder why ExtendedDefaultingRules aren't firing????
17:44:00 <shachaf> so why am i not in the @admin list
17:45:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you gotta problem with saul gorn
17:46:12 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:46:12 <mnoqy> i cant look saul gorn up because my dns isnt working
17:46:16 <elliott> does anyone know why these would differ
17:46:51 <mnoqy> maybe one of thos extended defaulting rules isnt extended =enough=
17:46:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable b0)
17:47:06 <shachaf> http://128.91.234.106/~rclark/gorn.html
17:47:08 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable1 m0)
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17:47:30 <mnoqy> maybe it's the show constraint on print?
17:47:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:48:09 <mnoqy> i think its Show but why
17:48:57 <mnoqy> this is a good compendium
17:49:06 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
17:49:56 <mnoqy> > undefined :: a -> a
17:49:57 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:49:57 <elliott> maybe because its "wrapped in a print"
17:50:08 <elliott> so that induces a Show constraint
17:50:10 <mnoqy> > undefined :: Show a => a -> a
17:50:26 <elliott> isn't it meant to default everything to ().......
17:50:31 <elliott> including things you wanna be Typeable
17:50:32 <mnoqy> > undefined :: Typeable a => a -> a
17:50:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
17:50:35 <elliott> > undefined :: Typeable a => a
17:50:42 <mnoqy> thats not a function
17:51:00 <mnoqy> itll only do the Show instance for -> if its a function
17:51:09 <mnoqy> and the Show instance for -> is what needs typable
17:51:09 <elliott> you don't understand what i was checking for
17:51:14 <elliott> you don't understand what i was checking for.
17:51:25 <elliott> anyway, my current hypothesis is maybe ExtendedDefaultingRules don't apply to the prerequisites of an instance
17:51:25 <mnoqy> but its obvious that itd give an exception????
17:51:42 <elliott> I was wondering whether it would default with Typeable there
17:52:43 <mnoqy> why is show strict for ()!!!!!!!!
17:53:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: it s better that way...........................................
17:54:07 <shachaf> wow lambdabot has really gone downhill
17:54:11 <lambdabot> Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'...
17:54:12 <lambdabot> Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'...
17:54:33 <elliott> maybe I should just fix the packages in question.
17:54:39 <elliott> I think I have commit rights to all of them except parallel.
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19:29:39 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting
19:29:40 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:29:53 <elliott> > let foo = In (Just foo) in foo
19:29:56 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = J...
19:30:16 <ion> In (Just ice)
19:30:17 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:23 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:29 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:42 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:45 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:48 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:51 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:54 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:30:59 <Bike> simply fantastic
19:31:00 <elliott> maybe it's an actual infinite loop
19:31:08 <elliott> i assign ion to ionvestigate
19:31:11 <nooodl> i can't imagine it not being an actual infinite loop...
19:31:43 <Taneb> elliott, have you seen the monstrosities ion attempts with tables
19:31:44 <ion> I delegate elliott to ellook at it.
19:31:54 <elliott> Taneb: yes I get bloody emails about them thanks to edwardk
19:31:57 <elliott> despite not really caring about tables at all
19:32:00 <Bike> is the parser expected to be able to read infinitely nested text
19:32:22 <elliott> because it'd be the super-cute's
19:32:37 <elliott> > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu ()
19:32:38 <lambdabot> The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
19:32:45 <elliott> > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu Maybe
19:32:48 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:32:55 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (poo" :: Mu Maybe
19:32:58 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:03 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:08 <ion> > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: My Maybe
19:33:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `My'
19:33:16 <ion> > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: Mu Maybe
19:33:18 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}
19:33:26 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:32 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe
19:33:36 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:33:41 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
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19:33:57 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}" :: Mu Maybe
19:34:00 <lambdabot> In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}
19:34:06 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe
19:34:14 <elliott> > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe
19:34:17 <lambdabot> In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:34:20 <nooodl> elliott, how would that ever parse
19:34:23 <lambdabot> *** "4" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:34:23 <lambdabot> adj 1: being one more than three [syn: {four}, {4}, {iv}]
19:34:23 <lambdabot> n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of three and one [syn:
19:34:25 <lambdabot> {four}, {4}, {IV}, {tetrad}, {quatern}, {quaternion},
19:34:25 <elliott> nooodl: it could partially parse
19:34:27 <lambdabot> {quaternary}, {quaternity}, {quartet}, {quadruplet},
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19:34:46 <Bike> what did i do wrong :<
19:34:47 <elliott> so i can't do my silly infinitely long read
19:35:18 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:35:21 <nooodl> > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1,"
19:35:22 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:35:34 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:35:39 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:35:58 <Bike> > let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x
19:36:23 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
19:36:30 <nooodl> oh i need to... type it...
19:36:31 <Bike> wow this is awesome.
19:36:44 <elliott> Bike: this ain't mathematica boy
19:36:46 <Taneb> > read "In {out = \"shake it all about\"}" :: Mu String
19:36:47 <lambdabot> The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste...
19:37:03 <Bike> elliott: literaly angry with rage, here
19:37:27 <Bike> ramanujan "not good enough for you"???
19:37:40 <nooodl> > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1," :: [Int]
19:38:29 <Taneb> > runIdentity $ read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}"
19:38:33 <elliott> Bike: btw I bet you could make a really evil type that let you do that sqrt (2 + x) thing
19:38:50 <elliott> use observable sharing to build up an expression graph
19:39:02 <Bike> you realize x is just two right
19:39:05 <elliott> use a symbolic representation like the simple-reflect trick for the rest:
19:39:14 <Taneb> > read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}" :: Identity ()
19:39:17 <elliott> and then solve the whole thing as an equation in the Show instance
19:39:24 <elliott> so that you could input let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x and get 2.0 out
19:39:35 <Bike> that sounds idiotic, so, let's see it
19:39:35 <elliott> in fact, I almost want to try.
19:39:49 <elliott> you could even ship off the equations to satisfy to Maxima or whatever
19:40:13 <elliott> you don't understand how tempting this is
19:40:29 <Bike> and then /cs clear users in #haskell
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19:41:41 <Bike> by the way, the reason i thought it wasn't working is because my connection died in such a way that i didn't receive any messages after lambdabot's sourcing Mu
19:41:42 <elliott> i'm literally giggling over having this idea
19:42:02 <Bike> so i'm pretty confused about how that got into the log and your client without me getting 2.0 back? fuck this connection is what i'm saying
19:43:50 <Taneb> Hang on, elliott is running lambdabot
19:43:54 <Taneb> You know what this means
19:44:45 <Bike> so speaking of stupid ideas i don't even get how the infinite parse is supposed to work
19:44:50 <Bike> it doesn't even end with infinite brackets!
19:44:53 <Bike> offensive imo.
19:45:50 <Taneb> elliott, are you running lambdabot locally?
19:46:01 <Taneb> Like, on your computer?
19:46:11 <Taneb> Because if you are
19:46:15 <nooodl> > cycle "In {out = Just (" ++ "Nothing" ++ cycle ")}"
19:46:15 <lambdabot> "In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = ...
19:46:17 <Taneb> Then lambdabot is in Hexham!
19:46:28 <elliott> Bike: well, you can imagine Mu's parser would be like this: read ("Mu {out = " ++ s ++ "}") = Mu {out = read s}
19:46:29 <Bike> nooodl: Much better.
19:46:41 <nooodl> WOw imagine lambdabot being in hexham
19:47:05 <Bike> elliott: uh, yes?
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19:47:19 <elliott> Bike: yes but it could "construct the value" and then error out if it doesn't see a }
19:47:37 <Bike> you can't just allow parsing unterminated expressions you could kill people
19:47:54 <elliott> would you like me to add infinite }s to the end
19:48:15 <nooodl> (i've already done that!!! ☕)
19:48:18 <elliott> > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe
19:48:33 <Bike> that's terrible :(
19:50:39 <elliott> > reduction (2*x + 0 + 0*y / g z)
19:50:53 <Bike> that supposed to simplify the expression?
19:51:56 <elliott> looks like it's not very good at it
19:51:57 <Bike> it's quite effective
19:52:04 <Taneb> I've had a Tumblr account for a whole year
19:52:16 <elliott> Bike: anyway, you've got me thinking now
19:52:18 <Bike> > reduction (3 + 4 + x)
19:52:21 <Bike> elliott: sorry
19:52:30 <Bike> ok so it folds constants but doesn't eliminate identities
19:52:30 <elliott> Bike: this thing could turn your expressions into arbitrary trees and then do arbitrary things with them using maxima!
19:52:33 <elliott> you could even do derivatives
19:52:43 <Bike> automatic differentiation is pretty baller
19:52:51 <elliott> it's symbolic differentiation
19:52:57 <Bike> that's some Weak Shit son
19:53:52 <elliott> "Maxima's ability to solve equations is limited, but progress is being made in this area."
19:53:56 <elliott> maybe it should shell out to mathematics
19:55:21 <Bike> i'm imagining them citing richardson's theorem and just saying why bother
19:56:55 <elliott> does anyone know any good free as in farts CAS type things
19:57:48 <Bike> is octave good?
19:58:02 <Bike> oh it's more numerical than CASy huh
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19:58:29 <Bike> oh, axiom is suppose dto be good i think?
19:59:02 <Bike> also it's strongly typed or whatever "good for haskell"
20:01:16 <elliott> i've read some of its manual
20:01:29 <elliott> they started it in like the 70s and it's entirely written with knuth-style literate programming
20:01:41 <elliott> it's like it exists outside of time
20:01:44 <Bike> well what are your options here
20:01:53 <Bike> knuth weirdness or well have you seen maxima's source
20:02:08 <elliott> btw i am speaking positively of axiom here
20:02:24 <Bike> hard to tell with you
20:08:01 <fizzie> Octave is like the hippie MATLAB.
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20:15:59 <lambdabot> class (Fractional a) => Floating a where
20:16:00 <lambdabot> exp, log, sqrt, sin, cos, tan :: a -> a
20:16:00 <lambdabot> asin, acos, atan, sinh, cosh, tanh, asinh, acosh, atanh :: a -> a
20:16:07 <lambdabot> class (Eq a, Show a) => Num a where
20:17:31 <lambdabot> class (Num a) => Fractional a where
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20:20:17 <lambdabot> class Functor f => Applicative f where
20:20:32 <Taneb> Is this a proper @src?
20:20:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
20:20:47 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
20:21:03 <Taneb> > F.foldMap (:[]) "hello"
20:24:51 <elliott> enhancements have to wait for me to implement this hack for Bike
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20:36:29 <oerjan> jeg er ikke til stede for tiden. vennligst legg igjen beskjed etter pipetonen.
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21:15:23 <kmc> http://toys.usvsth3m.com/edballs/
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21:16:31 <Bike> was that sound used in some windows 98 game
21:17:18 <elliott> Bike: itw as one of the startup ones i think
21:17:27 <kmc> Bike: i think so yes
21:22:31 <oerjan> 04:44:31: <Sgeo_> I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language <-- make it a top secret language and we're talking
21:23:16 <Bike> anyway my rank was Ed Balls so i think that's a success
21:24:11 <Bike> kmc: lol at that haskell thing btw
21:25:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT <-- fascinating old chap
21:25:10 <Bike> elliott's a freak man
21:26:03 <elliott> also you can omit the caps
21:26:14 <Bike> elliott pro ballsing
21:26:30 <shachaf> also you can press and then ^V
21:26:52 <nooodl> hit e + d + space all together
21:26:58 <Bike> he tweeted "Ed Balls" once
21:27:07 <nooodl> then type "balls" really quickly
21:27:09 <Bike> this became a joke in traditional internet fashion
21:27:25 <shachaf> that's not a very good joke
21:27:30 <shachaf> in traditional internet fashion
21:27:35 <Fiora> that reminds me of the founder of Dick's Sporting Goods
21:28:17 <shachaf> that reminds me of the person who runs lambdabot
21:28:28 <shachaf> ok no that's mean i'll stop
21:28:29 <Bike> Elliott Dickface
21:28:31 <kmc> which haskell thing Bike
21:28:38 <Bike> the nodejs thing
21:28:41 <Taneb> Fiora, he was Minister for Education under Gordon Brown's government and is now I think Shadow Chancellor, a position a lot less awesome or evil than it sounds
21:28:44 <kmc> Ed Balls isn't just an MP, he's the /SHADOW CHANCELLOR/
21:28:57 <Fiora> Shadow Chancellor sounds like a position in some dark cult XD
21:29:00 <Bike> i'm sorry for disrespecting the balls, ed balls
21:29:08 <Fiora> The... the shadow chancellor wishes to speak with you, my liege.
21:29:11 <Bike> the shadow chancellor isthe opposition party's chancellor right
21:29:17 <kmc> much cooler title than the actual position deserves
21:29:25 <kmc> his job is to complain about whatever the real chancellor is doing
21:29:39 <kmc> chancellor being the person in charge of money
21:30:11 <Fiora> "shadow chancellor" sounds like a position sauron would hold
21:30:41 <Bike> isn't it like, the position he /did/ hold
21:30:55 <nooodl> hi Koen_ a while ago i was wondering where are the glottal stops in the pronunciation of "d'A Z"
21:31:03 <Bike> or was that saruman guess what books i haven't read
21:31:27 <Koen_> I'd say before every syllable nooodl
21:32:10 <Koen_> though I guess no one would notice if you didn't stop before the first A
21:32:50 <Bike> deäáz of our lives
21:32:51 <Koen_> yeah that's a little bit weird
21:35:04 <Koen_> now I'm starting to think you're breton olsner
21:35:16 <olsner> btw I'm considering calling my OS thingy ꙮS
21:35:39 <FreeFull> olsner: But then you'll have to add UTF-8 support
21:35:53 <Koen_> please tell me the little square I can't read isn't the super-seven-eye symbol
21:35:53 <olsner> nah, I just have to invent an encoding of my own
21:36:01 <ion> or just Unicode support
21:36:31 <kmc> the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O
21:36:47 <Koen_> see, I don't need to have any kind of support to know the name of your os
21:36:57 <shachaf> kmc: itym Cyrillic letter О
21:37:22 <Bike> the "kmc encoding": just assume all the squares are eyes, staring
21:37:32 <olsner> kmc: I sort of want a citation for that, detailing the rarity and exoticism of cyrillic glyph variants
21:37:36 <ion> shachaf: That’s redundant.
21:37:39 <kmc> olsner: me too
21:37:44 <Koen_> "how would you like your Cyrillic O?" "very rare, please"
21:37:51 <kmc> you could look through all of http://old.stsl.ru/manuscripts/
21:37:52 <ion> shachaf: Also, that’s what kmc said, isn’t it?
21:38:02 <Bike> i suppose at some point you'd run into the glagolithic transition
21:38:14 <FreeFull> I think you should call your OS ˿ѿď瑿컿
21:38:29 <ion> Oh, sorry. I failed at copying from kmc’s line and still had your О in the clipboard.
21:38:38 <Bike> is the name of the unicode character "Cyrillic letter O" or ""Cyrillic letter О"
21:38:43 <Bike> this is seriously going to bother me
21:38:45 <kmc> the former
21:38:49 <kmc> Unicode character names are ASCII
21:38:56 <kmc> \rainbow{bootstrapping}
21:39:07 <kmc> i liked the proposal that they should be allowed to use any character that comes before that character
21:39:08 <shachaf> I prefer to think of them as "restricted Unicode".
21:39:11 <ion> There’s \rainbow{}?
21:39:19 <kmc> ion: it's a convention from another channel
21:39:32 <kmc> i think there is an irssi plugin that actually produces rainbows
21:39:36 <kmc> but people got annoyed at them
21:39:37 <shachaf> That proposal is problematic because it gives a preference to lower codepoints.
21:39:48 <kmc> FreeFull: what's that, most of the letters are missing in my fonts :/
21:39:50 <FreeFull> I don't know about a plugin, but I have a toilet alias for it
21:39:59 <ion> They should be allowed to use any character that cames after that character.
21:40:01 <kmc> toilet alias
21:40:26 <fizzie> ^rainbow I herd there's also a bot
21:40:27 <fungot> I herd there's also a bot
21:40:37 <FreeFull> http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/toilet
21:40:57 <FreeFull> toilet is a figlet replacement
21:41:02 <Bike> ^rainbow boostrapping
21:41:23 <olsner> I think they should be able to use any character that doesn't produce loops in the dependency graph, the ordering of characters should not be relevant to their description
21:41:28 <fizzie> "Rainbow bootstrapping" is a fancy name for rain.
21:41:55 <FreeFull> I think my rainbow looks better than yours
21:42:03 <olsner> (err, does unicode describe "characters" or some other term?)
21:42:32 <fizzie> FreeFull: ^rainbow rainbow isn't designed, though, it's just consecutive colors for ease of implementation.
21:42:47 <Bike> olsner: imo allow fixpoints!!!
21:43:18 <fizzie> olsner: Code points are what many of the lists are made of, at least.
21:43:25 <olsner> Bike: yes, that was my original thought actually, anything that brings the unicode standard to a fix point should be ok
21:43:46 <kmc> you can download the Unicode Character Database so I guess they are 'characters'
21:43:58 <fizzie> "Character" in Unicode means: "(1) The smallest component of written language that has semantic value; refers to the abstract meaning and/or shape, rather than a specific shape (see also glyph), though in code tables some form of visual representation is essential for the reader’s understanding. (2) Synonym for abstract character. (3) The basic unit of encoding for the Unicode character ...
21:44:04 <fizzie> ... encoding. (4) The English name for the ideographic written elements of Chinese origin. [See ideograph (2).]"
21:44:17 <Bike> uhhhh characters have semantics now?
21:44:23 <kmc> a lot of those 'characters' are not part of written language though
21:44:28 <fizzie> The character database is presumably using sense (3).
21:44:50 <olsner> would be nice if unicode (or something like "does the unicode character descriptions reach a fixed point") was undecidable
21:44:56 <kmc> Bike: they can be assigned semantics... e.g. mathematical bold and italic are different characters because maths papers define them to mean different things, because fuck maths
21:45:11 <fizzie> The difference from code point seems to be that all numbers from 0 to 0x10ffff are code points, but not of them are assigned to characters.
21:45:54 <Bike> kmc: but in natural language they barely even define phonemics, i mean
21:46:14 <kmc> fizzie: are the values corresponding to UTF-16 surrogate pair code units considered to be code points in Unicode?
21:46:38 <fizzie> kmc: Apparently. ("Code Point. (1) Any value in the Unicode codespace; that is, the range of integers from 0 to 10FFFF16. (See definition D10 in Section 3.4, Characters and Encoding.)")
21:46:55 <fizzie> (That 16 is a subscript.)
21:47:38 <fizzie> There are also seven fundamental classes of code points -- Graphic, Format, Control, Private-Use, Surrogate, Noncharacter, Reserved.
21:50:08 <elliott> @hoogle Map k a -> k -> Bool
21:50:09 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:10 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Strict member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:10 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy notMember :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool
21:50:28 <Bike> what's notMember for exactly
21:50:38 <shachaf> checking if a key isn't a member hth
21:51:13 <kmc> so you can write «x `notMember` y» instead of «not (x `member` y)» and it's a little bit nicer I guess
21:51:44 <kmc> or better yet «map (`notMember` y)» vs «map (not . (`member` y))»
21:51:59 <olsner> shachaf: always so hthelpful
21:53:12 <elliott> @hoogle (k -> k') -> Map k a -> Map k' a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Strict mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
21:53:12 <lambdabot> Data.Map.Lazy mapKeys :: Ord k2 => (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a
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21:59:30 <olsner> FreeFull: I'm not a function, hth
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22:49:32 <shachaf> kmc: once upon a time i installed a shareware program whose purpose was to reverse strings
22:49:41 <shachaf> i think it was reasonably popular
22:50:10 <shachaf> the good old days of rtl text
22:50:41 <shachaf> (The program would reverse text as you copy it into the clipboard or something like that.)
22:51:32 <myname> sounds extremely useful if you copy links
22:52:05 <shachaf> (Which shows up correctly for me because my terminal doesn't handle RTL text.)
22:52:21 <olsner> is that fchsh or shchf?
22:54:13 <Bike> the people of israel have decided: vowels are for fucking wusses
22:55:02 <olsner> like many non-english languages they have learned to encode information in diacritics
22:56:31 <shachaf> (That ׁ indicates that the ש is a sh and not a s. hth)
22:56:42 <olsner> I wonder which direction a) that was rendered, b) should've been rendered, or c) should be read
22:57:10 <oerjan> are there supposed to be circles with the vowel signs or is my terminal broken for them
22:57:10 <olsner> the sh appaeared at the end of the line, so I'm guessing backwards
22:57:50 <shachaf> olsner: The three letters are:
22:57:51 <oerjan> (almost certainly broken since the circles make the consonants even harder to see
22:58:04 <Bike> nice capture, oerjan
22:58:05 <shachaf> They should be written from right to left.
22:58:14 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch oerjan
22:58:33 <oerjan> i got me some hebrew letters!
22:58:52 <olsner> shachaf: is that from right to wrong or from wrong to right?
22:59:19 <shachaf> (We're talking about coasts of the US now.)
22:59:56 <kmc> a wise man once said the west is the best
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23:04:13 <olsner> fungot: where is the west and the best? are they in fact the same?
23:04:13 <fungot> olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
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23:27:48 <oerjan> hm moving the new laptop to the left end of the table made eating pizza too complicated
23:29:26 <Bike> we all have pizza problems, man. we all do
23:31:55 <oerjan> because i use my right hand on the touchpad, i have to eat pizza with the left, but now there was nowhere to put it. (yes, i already have moved the laptop out of the way)
23:35:12 <oerjan> also the reason i moved the laptop to the left is because the cord is shorter than the old one, and plugs in on the left, so it's uncomfortable to have it where the old one was when plugged in.
23:36:03 <oerjan> also oerjan world problems (including the irony) seems to be me in a nutshell.
23:36:28 <Sgeo_> I could easily create something like monad syntax in Rebol... but I think it would be inefficient
23:36:56 <Sgeo_> A do notation equivalent
23:37:15 <Bike> rules of programming 1) write in Haskell 2) write beautiful code, without regard to efficiency 3) optomize ONLY as needed
23:37:39 <Sgeo_> The design I'm thinking of would put the do notation processing inside the function passed to bind...
23:37:46 <Sgeo_> Each time bind is used
23:39:11 <oerjan> well don't do that then hth
23:41:41 <Sgeo_> But it's the easiest thing to di
23:41:59 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:42:01 <Sgeo_> And not sure how else to do it, without making the syntax more unreboly than it currently is
23:42:37 <Bike> FreeFull: now i'm reading it as "hadith"
23:44:14 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:45:16 <Bike> oerjan: that hardly seems very functional!
23:45:41 <FreeFull> > concatMap (const "hth ") [1..]
23:45:42 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:46:00 <oerjan> Bike: but it's very cyclic!
23:46:19 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:46:33 <Bike> oerjan: you could stand to learn a thing or two from freefull here.
23:46:51 <Sgeo_> Slightly annoying to specify which locals you want to use at the beginning of the function. I mean, you don't _have_ to, but I gather it's the most convenient thing to do
23:46:59 <oerjan> that's not even constant memory!
23:47:09 <lambdabot> ["hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth...
23:47:31 <FreeFull> > const "hth " <$> [1..] >>= id
23:47:31 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:47:44 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:48:01 <FreeFull> How will anyone know what that code does
23:48:11 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:48:16 <Koen_> can you do it without the explicit space? that is with "hth" instead of "hth "
23:49:05 <lambdabot> "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht...
23:49:07 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b
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23:53:21 <Bike> > fix \x -> 2 + sqrt x
23:53:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `\'
23:53:30 <Bike> > fix (\x -> 2 + sqrt x)
23:53:41 <Bike> i just can't win ;_;
23:54:27 <Bike> it's just not the same man
23:56:16 <FreeFull> I do believe you can implement iterate in terms of fix
23:56:52 <Sgeo_> If this works I will gibber insanely
23:57:03 <Sgeo_> (If it doesn't work I will also gibber insanely)
23:59:15 <FreeFull> > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> f a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0
23:59:16 <lambdabot> [3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,78...
23:59:43 <FreeFull> > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0
23:59:43 <lambdabot> [0,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,...
23:59:50 <Sgeo_> ma: do/next next assigns 'next-assigns
23:59:59 <Sgeo_> This is not really the most readable code I have ever written